On June 2, Rolling Stone published a lengthy article by Robert J. Kennedy, Jr., “Was the 2004 Election Stolen?” That article echoes the title of a book that Steven F. Freeman and I have written that has just been published by Seven Stories Press, Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen? Exit Polls, Election Fraud, and the Official Count. We provided Kennedy… return to article
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Reader Comments (462)Um, didn’t a Kennedy “steal” the election of ‘60?
One also might wonder: if an election is very very close, does it really matter who wins? In cases like this the electorate is clearly very evenly split. It is a given that the declared loser in such close elections will claim unfairness.
Lastly i think it is absolutely pathetic that another party (even along the lines of a third party) could not come up with a candidate that could win against such a weak president as Bush.
Posted by wolf on Jun 19, 2006 at 5:49 PM Robert Kennedy was asked that same question by Stephen Colbert on The Colbert Report. I wish I could quote his words and I can’t, but I can tell you that I was impressed with his reaction and his response. He did not become defensive. He was fair and non partisan. I can only remember I was satisfied with his answer. I’ll have to watch for that on re-runs. I recommend you do so too.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jun 19, 2006 at 6:18 PM Wolf,
Exactly what my first thought was — Chicago 1960! (Unless, of course you believe Democrats are so loyal they will vote from the grave.)
The exit polls don’t bother me too much. I place very little importance on any polls unless I have seen what the questions were and how they were phrased.
I am totally opposed to computer voting of any kind, with or without a paper trail. You don’t have to be Bill Gates to realize the possibilities for fraud are nearly limitless.
Also, the returns should not be announced in the east until polls are closed in the west. I would like to see the electoral college abolished too. Let’s have no more popular/state conflicts in the count.
As it is now, the 2004 election results will never be acceptable no matter how much investigation or explaination.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 19, 2006 at 6:34 PM HI Sally - thanks for the reference. I love Colbert! I was traveling last week and may still run across the interview as i catch up (yea for Replay TV!),
Posted by wolf on Jun 19, 2006 at 6:35 PM WTH….Is there a full moon…we agree again…this is spooky…all jokes aside…YES the election was fixed ;both 2000 & 2004 the discrepancies are well documented…Now as far as computer balloting , what can be done…technology is the name of the game , personally I see no problem with paper ballots ;...point : in MD. you are allowed to vote absentee ballot if your job is a hinderance in getting to the polls, that is what I did in 2004…voted on a Saturday ; paper ballot…as stated earlier voting for Kerry gave me no pleasure…viable candidates is my real concern….is a little integrity too much to ask for ??HR 550 may sound like good legislation…but how well it will work is yet to be seen…can you say loopholes….
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 19, 2006 at 8:00 PM “Exactly what my first thought was — Chicago 1960!”
But Chicago didn’t put Kennedy in the White House.
1960 electoral vote totals:
Kennedy = 303
Nixon = 219
Illinois gave Kennedy 27 electoral votes.
You do the math.In any case, the more significant problem with our “democracy” is non-participation: The U.S. ranks 139th out of 172 nations in voter turnout. Maybe 62 million voted for Bush, maybe 58 million for Kerry - but roughly 45 million eligible citizens didn’t bother to vote at all. Every effort should be made to prevent electoral corruption, but the non-participation issue - while complex and lacking the appeal of a good conspiracy story - needs to be treated as a major crisis and given more attention, especially in the “progressive” media.
The Employee Free Choice Act can help address the democracy crisis: There are currently 16 million members of labor unions in the U.S.; in 2004, they went 61% Kerry, 38% Bush. If given the chance, 57 million additional workers say they would join a union. By restoring the right to organize (another criterion of democracy where the U.S. falls short), the Act can help create that sense of efficacy which leads citizens to the voting booth. Democrats would obviously benefit, despite their complicity in the anti-labor, pro-capital agenda of the last 30+ years.
Posted by anonanonanon on Jun 19, 2006 at 8:52 PM Redhorse,
Bingo! Another one.
I think many of us agree on more things than seem apparent in a lot of these discussions.
Sometimes it is what methods we each think best to achieve a “good ” result, sometimes it is a difference in degree of government involvement needed and other times what each one sees constitutes fact or what is just another opinion we “want” to be true.
I think if there is one single thing which divides people, it is our different life experiences. Whatever they have been are bound to seem more real to each person and therefore will affect his perception on any topic.
With all the bad news and flat out lying that goes on I keep wondering if it is really any worse or if all the constant news bombardment we get is just making it seems like it is.
I think in my case the extra time I have since I quit working 10 to 12 hour days exposes me to more than my brain can handle.
Cheers.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 19, 2006 at 8:54 PM WTH….Personally…I believe it has always been this way , based mostly on history…but also life experience…human nature…lust for riches and power ARE universal…As milk toast as the media is the increase in information has helped folks become less naive…a little info overload never hurt…..” how does one eat an elephant…one bite at a time.”...the 1960 election…although my take on Kennedy as a leader is not much different than any other rich guy turned politician…he did try too clean-up organized crime…cost him his life…there probably where two shooters…never seen a bullet make a right turn in mid flight….
If I remember correctly Big Daddy Joe Kennedy is the one who organized the voter fraud…dead folks voting ....oldest trick in the book….He also admired Hitler and Fascism….made his first millions…bootlegging…during prohibition of course….as ambassador to England had no problem with Hitler moving in on Poland or a fascist europe…thought it would be good business for U.S….p.s….Calm down Scorp…the tears don’t move anyone…you still have Iraq…...get over it….
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 19, 2006 at 9:44 PM Redhorse,
Old man Joe got his jollies by making his kid president — Jack happened to be next in line after Joe Jr. was killed in WW2. We won’t live long enough to ever know the true story of his killing, but there is enough questionable info and squelched info to make this an ongoing TV series to rival Dallas.
We will probably have Teddy around for ever too. He’s such a pompous ass he could drive ME to drink. On second thought I think I’ll do the driving.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 20, 2006 at 12:18 AM Anonanonanonanon,
I think we have a low voter turnout because a lot of people are too busy watching American idol and other important things. Seriously though I would rather have only informed and responsible people vote than push for high percentages.
Some, like my two sons never voted until they were over forty. They finally got disgusted enough to want to change things. Now, ironically, I feel so disillusioned with government at anything above the local level, that unless some really outstanding candidate emerges, I may not bother. Lately a coin toss would have chosen as well.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 20, 2006 at 12:24 AM It’s kind of hard to take this article seriously. Are the so-called facts true?
If we go back to March 16, 2004 .... to the article called “CAMPAIGN OF SHAME”.
www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/523/
That article claims that John Kerry only raised $50 Million up to that time, when in fact John Kerry had raised almost $80 million as of March 4. And John Kerry ended up with a total of $233.4 million total and ended up with $47 million left over after the election.
www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/kerry/kerrfin.html
The exit polls were fixed by liberals in hopes of Republican voters thinking they lost and they would not vote. But it didn’t work .... the scam by the Dems backfired.
In an email prior to the debate, Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe urged the party faithful to “vote in online polls” as soon as the debate ended.
The email also urged Democrats to write to local newspapers and call radio talk shows. Major media website addresses were given. Democrats were implored to forward the message to “at least” ten other people.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/01/politics/main646915.shtml
PS > YOU LOST AND YOU CAN’T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT !!!
lol…
lmao….
Posted by tina1 on Jun 20, 2006 at 5:23 AM tina1 wrote:
“Unions screwed themselves, they went way overboard. Look at what unions did
to the rubber plants in Akron, Ohio during the 70’s. BF Goodrich, General
Tire, Kelly-Springfield, Goodyear and Firestone were all located in Akron.
Employment in Akron’s rubber companies was at 60,000. After a four-month,
industry-wide strike in 1976, rubber companies started building plants in
Iowa, Oklahoma and southern states where the work ethic was better. These
plants were still union but the people in these states were better workers
and they didn’t try to screw their employer. They actually take pride in
what they do, unlike union workers in Ohio and Michigan ... which is why
plants are leaving N.E. Ohio and Michigan ... the WORKERS are lazy and
stupid.”thanks, tina1 - It always helps “us liberals” when people like you make such a clear display of their anti-democratic attitudes, along with their ignorance. Look up “right to work” and “Taft-Hartley Act” regarding why manufacturing industries moved to the South. And look up “slavery” regarding the South’s historic position in labor relations (and frequent use of adjectives like “lazy” and “stupid”).
Democracy means little without economic democracy, which is possible in a capitalist system only when there is a strong labor movement. As the service sector displaces manufacturing as the primary employer of the working class, it won’t be as easy for employers to pick up and move elsewhere - and they know it, which is why they’ve been so aggressive over the past 30 years in putting legislators and judges in place who demolish basic human rights of American workers.
Posted by anonanonanon on Jun 20, 2006 at 6:12 AM According to Wikipedia, Kennedy won Illinois by 9000 votes, after Mayor Daley had withheld the Cook County ballots until late in the evening, when it was discovered that Kennedy had won Chicago by an “extraordinary” 450,000 votes. There were also irregularities in Texas, and Texas and Illinois together would have given the election to Nixon.
Which brings to mind LBJ’s first election to the Senate. Some ballot boxes were withheld until most of the votes had been tallied, and the late votes gave Johnson an unexpected victory - by exactly 87 votes out of over one-half million votes cast. Johnson then picked up the nickname, “Landslide Johnson”. LBJ’s previous nickname from when he was in college was, “Bullshit” Johnson.
There was, in fact, documented fraud and dishonesty in the 2004 elections. In Florida, Ohio, and other states there were recorded instances of assault, tire slashing of campaign vehicles, and destruction of campaign property and materials. All the reported crimes were committed by Dimocrats, and several people went to jail or were fined. I personally find it hard to believe that there were no miscreant Republicans out there, and would welcome any solid documentation to that effect. But when I was researching this in 2004, all the criminals seemed to be Dims. And surely any widespread fraud, voting or otherwise, will be detectable. But all we have is idle speculation. So we have real live Dimocratic criminals, and a bunch of Dimocrats creaming their jeans, wishing they could prove dishonesty among Republicans.
Since exit pollees are self-selected, there is absolutely no way to conduct a scientific, accurate exit poll. I note that Dims love to shoot off their mouths, so I expect that lots of Dims are quite willing to tell the world how they have voted. And, while honesty is the best policy in personal and business relationships, any SOB that interrupts my dinner to conduct a survey, political or otherwise, will learn all kinds of fanciful things.
Posted by scorp on Jun 20, 2006 at 7:51 AM Tina said “YOU LOST AND YOU CAN’T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT !!! ” And then she laughs…..
Tina, that is a dictatorship…if you really mean we can’t do anything about it, especially if you are hinting that your remark refers to future elections.
We DO have elections coming up in November and then again in 2008.
I imagine people will begin to catch on to voter machine fraud- and if we really stilll DO live in a DEMOCRACY, where people decide then I hope you will remember the phrase, “the harder they come, the harder they fall.”The pleasure you get out of saying we lost and can’t do anything about it is as scary as the theocratic movemment in this country.
Posted by robin on Jun 20, 2006 at 11:05 AM The essay posted here is interesting, but it seems to be based on one very dubious assumption: that exit polls are trustworthy. While I admit that I have not read Mr. Bleifuss’ book, I can only gather from this article that such an assumption has been made without analysis.
Why trust ANY exit poll? The electorate is well-informed about how such polls are used; much of the electorate remains angry that such polls may or may not have influenced voter turnout in previous elections. We all know the criticism that exit polls lead pundits and prognosticators to call a state or district for a particular candidate before the final tallies are in, and, perhaps, before polls are closed. Hence, knowing that voters are mindful of this sort of problem with exit polling, why would we assume that any voter participating in an exit poll is telling the truth?
My own experience is two-fold. I have lied on the exit polls I’ve taken (I am not proud of this, now that I think about it), and I know many others who have lied on the exit polls they’ve taken as well. Plus, I am amazed by the vast numbers of people who refuse to even acknowledge an exit poll worker when exiting the voting station. What, alas, is the percentage of voters who vote in the actual election who take exit polls, and what percentage of them are NOT telling the truth? I don’t know, and I am not going to get the answer from reading this essay.
Moreover, how do I know that REAL voters even filled out the exit polls in question? If I can’t trust the polls INSIDE the voting station, why should I trust polls taken OUTSIDE? Surely we can all imagine an overzealous exit-pollster working to skew the projection data by filling out a few extra exit polls, can’t we?
The bottom line is that potential problems with a voting machine does not a conspiracy make, nor does a disparity between inside and outside polls. This essay does not appear to analyze the most basic assumption of the authors’ whole thesis—the trustworthiness of exit polls—and as such should be read warily. And I am afraid that if we were to launch an investigative study of exit polls, we would discover that such tools are rife with problems, potential and actual.
Peace,
Bill Gnade
Posted by Gnade on Jun 20, 2006 at 12:43 PM Robin -
Tina said “YOU LOST AND YOU CAN’T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT !!! ... And then she laughs…..
Tina, that is a dictatorship…
Oh, come on, Robin. Tina is obviously referring to the elite leftist dictatorship of the proletariat.
The reason the elite leftist dictatorship of the proletariat (communists, for short) keeps on losing is that they do not understand how the world works. The communists are convinced that the world works the way Karl Marx said it did, but it does not. And, while the communists in Russia were a minority, they were able to seize power, and graphically illustrated the falsity of Marx’s so-called philosophy, at the cost of 100 million innocent dead worldwide, over a period of seventy years.
The communists in the USA are also a minority (with a sizeable number of their own useless idiots, called moderate Dimocrats), but they cannot seize power, because the unstable political situation in Russia in 1918 does not prevail in America today. Not for lack of trying. Every time the elite leftists succeed in electing a leftist as President (Johnson, Carter, Clinton), there follows an economic disaster (economic stagnation, inflation and interest rate catastrophe, bubble crash and recession, respectively), sort of like the Soviet Union was throughout its long unhappy Marxist existence.
When the Dimocrats screw up the works, the Republicans have to clean up the mess, as Presidents Reagan and Bush fils have done. The average American voter is smarter than the average communist manipulator, and is becoming smarter election by election; that is why the results of the 2004 election were so much better than the 2000 election. No one likes to be at war, least of all us Republicans, but few are foolish enough to follow the communist philosophy; and when they do, they are soon reminded of why you should never vote communist.
Communists genuinely do not understand why American voters are smarter than they are, and this leads the communists into error, big time. Communists are desperate to understand why they are so electorally incompetent, and grasp at straws: Bleifuss’ conspiracy theory about vote machines, Kos’s obscene rants, and Lakoff’s framing the debate, etc., etc., etc., none of which make a shitting bit of difference. American voters are smarter than communist elites, and are not buying what the communists have to sell.
That is all that Tina was saying. Don’t get your bloomers in a bunch.
Posted by scorp on Jun 20, 2006 at 2:41 PM Prediction: the loser of the next presidential election will cry foul and electoral fraud, the winner will cry sour grapes, journalists will make money documenting it, blogoscreamers will find yet another issue to vent on.
Oh my god! It is a conspiracy from bloggers and their advertisers!
That explains—[REDACTED]!
Posted by Jay Cline on Jun 20, 2006 at 6:18 PM Whatever the past elections’ reliability, it seems only prudent to make voting as fool proof and as tamperproof as possible.
Is there really anyone out there who can’t see more chance for rigging in computerized balloting than with paper ballots?
Is there any defense for keeping the electoral college?
For the winner’s validity, the loser’s peace of mind and the unity of the nation we should go for quality and varifyibility over ease and speed.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 20, 2006 at 6:32 PM I posted this on another link (after the article about Lou, the elderly union guy), but it is very appropriate here.
National campaigns? The congressional elections? I spent time and money in both 2000 and 2004 working hard on the presidential campaigns (being a local precinctperson as well). And guess what? Even though both Gore and Kerry carried Oregon, chicanery and fraud in other states ruined any chance of them getting into office. I am convinced that the same thing will happen this year. Republicans will maintain control of Congress because they control the vote counting via electronic voting machines. Just look at the special election in Congress to fill the Republican seat vacated by a fraud conviction—the Republican squeaked through. That’s how they have done it ever since the elections of 1998. The votes are changed so that the Republicans always win by a squeaker—notice that it’s never the other way around.
What does this mean? It means, dear friends, that the problem really isn’t the American electorate overall. If the actual will of the American electorate still did not result in the election of the candidates they actually voted for, the problem lies elsewhere—it lies in the incredibly fraudulent voting machine technologies that states have been forced to adopt by bills passed by a Republican congress and signed by a Republican president. It was win-win-win for them. Money for their financial backers, power on both the state and national level, and neutralization of their opponents, no matter how hard the opponents campaign. Until this is changed (at the local and state level, by local and state activists willing to run for such unromantic and invisiible jobs as controller, secretary of state, county recorder, etc., etc.), there is no point in voting for a national candidate in certain states. There’s certainly no point in giving them any money. Even if the most people vote for them, they won’t “win”.
Oregon, with its mail-in voting system which automatically guarantees that a paper ballot exists for every vote cast, is the only state in the union right now with free, fair and honest elections. We don’t always like how our fellow citizens vote, but we know that our elections are clean.
Until the election systems in every state are as well-run and as documented as the one in Oregon—by the way, a big thank you to Bill Bradbury, the Democratic Secretary of State who devised the vote-by-mail program—we have no hope of changing the national government to actually reflect what people want.
I can’t understand why, with all the internet coverage of the stolen elections of 2000 and 2004, election campaigners and activists are still worried about attracting the votes of the working class—for the most part, they already get them—they just don’t count.
Posted by OregonRusalka on Jun 20, 2006 at 6:59 PM Dear Whattheheck,
Yes, I do believe there is a defense of the electoral college, and it is this:
Please, just imagine for one second, that the Mormons in Utah go on a reproduction spree (I am not dissing Mormons here). Meanwhile, in major metropolitan areas around the country, a weird disease smites the population. Suddenly, in less than one generation, the largest single, and single-minded, voting bloc lives in Salt Lake City and its surrounding towns. Suddenly, one place and one place only, dictates national elections by having the largest single vote, dominating popular elections for decades.
Or, think of it this way. Imagine that the Ohio population burgeons to 600,000,000 people, all of whom are Republicans. Do you think anyone would ever campaign in New Hampshire again? The point is that there is to be a distinction between state and federal power. State power must not ever usurp or transcend federal power re: a federal policy or function. But, abandoning the electoral college may indeed lead to one state acting as the dictator of federal office.
Killing the electoral college is anti-democratic. In one very real sense, the electoral college is an affirmative action protecting smaller voting populations. And it makes candidates more sentient of the broad opinions that compose American ideologies; dismantling the electoral college will reduce candidates’ interest to the one major voting bloc that can give them the popular vote.
The electoral college may be the most ingenious thing ever created by our forbears, eclipsing, if that were possible, the very Constitution itself.
Peace,
BG
Posted by Gnade on Jun 20, 2006 at 7:06 PM For Scorp and Tina, I have several comments—first, every single recount undertaken after the Florida and Ohio debacles showed that Gore and Kerry had the most votes, and every single investigation by anyone who has bothered to look has shown that multiple instances of fraud occurred in both 2000 and 2004. And while vote fraud occurred in the past, that is never an excuse for it—it is always bad, no matter who does it.
Secondly, you clearly haven’t read Marx! Marx’s discussion of the evolution of societies is amazingly astute. The people who invented communism were Lenin and Stalin—they professed to be Marxists but they really weren’t. In psychological terms, one could say that they were both pathological control freaks. Trotsky tried to establish a real socialism, including entrepreneurial free market capitalism which gave Russia a booming economy in the early twenties, but Lenin made sure he was taken care of.
Your comments about “communism” and “communists” are essentially a regurgitation of John Birch Society propaganda that has been floating around since before the 1960’s. The Soviet Union called itself a socialist society, but it never really was—it was dictatorship of an elite, and its policies, especially under Stalin, were not that different from Tzarist policies!
This is the one thing that really drives me nuts about right wing nuts—they only know propaganda; they never know or understand history. They read books that tell them what to think about what Marx wrote (in other words, books of propaganda), but they never read Marx themselves. What heactually wrote is fascinating. The poor guy is rolling in his grave at what Lenin, Stalin and Mao claimed to do in his name! Remember, Marx was writing in London at the same time that Dickens was writing. They were both observing the same stratified, rigidly oppressive society, and their social commentary is quite similar. Marx was responding to the same horrific social injustices. The big mistake most uneducated people make is to think about Marx in terms of the Russian revolution and the Soviet Union, neither of which reflected actual Marxist philosophy.
“Communism” and “communist” as Scorpo uses them are propaganda labels—both in the way they were used in the early days of the Soviet Union to establish communes, etc., and in the way American anti-communists propagandists have used them. The right wing works hard to make sure that labels have either negative connotations or positive ones—and that their enemies are associated with the negative ones, no matter how untrue or inaccurate—that’s why the right wing still brings up the old communist bugaboo—it still works as a negative label that produces a knee-jerk reaction of fear, loathing or scandal.
Another sad aspect of your posts is the nasty tone—e.g., “YOU LOST AND YOU CAN’T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT !!! “ This remark is just simply vicious, and has no place in a discussion forum where nearly everyone who reads or posts has a deep and abiding concern for the future of their country. Nevertheless, this kind of childish taunt is quite representative of Republican politics at this time.
There is no question that politics in this country has become increasingly vicious as the right wing has risen to power. There is a spiteful, resentful attitude that is promoted by the FAUX News anchors and Rush Limbaugh and other right wing writers and commentators. Bill O’Reilly is a pitiful bully, living the life of his father all over again. They encourage their viewers and readers to think the worst of those who are defined as enemies and to have no qualms about libeling or slandering them. Ann Coulter has made a career on lies and slander and misrepresentations of history—does the right wing or anyone in the GOP criticize her? No. Nor the hypocrisy of Limbaugh or the viciousness of McLoughlin. It, too, is part of the strategy—the bullying part. And it is very sad.
Posted by OregonRusalka on Jun 20, 2006 at 7:23 PM Scorp….Johnson was a southern Dixie-crat…a member of the core that later made up your conservative movement…Carter & Clinton are both Trilateralist…right leaning Democrats that follow the philosophy of guys like Zbigniew Brzezinski…Clintons was YOUR best weapon ,the undercover Republican…oh the propaganda….you just swim in that stuff….......The base reason all you neo-cons are so pumped is because the progressive agenda made progress from FDR till Johnson….scared the hell out of you guys because of the precieved loss of privilege…so here comes Goldwater ; then 20 years of lost elections , with the exception of Nixon who was his own man ; you finally get Reagan and the neo-con movement is born….even Ike was leary of your nonsense…soo.. now you’re in power…and Bush , with his 33% approval rating will go down in history as the stupidist most arrogant rats ass of a president EVER…The racist nature of your agenda…the lies about WMD, all those dead and maimed military personnel…the lousy management style..the overt and covert use of the fear factor ( folks don’t like being PLAYED ) Katrina…etc….will bite you in the ass….if the U.S.A. is too SURVIVE ; a correction towards the left ...MUST materialize or all of us are FINISHED…period…bottom line…
It’s like rid’in a bike , once you get moving ; BALANCE is key….the neo-cons lack balance….........b-a-a-l-a-a-n-c-e…
Think about it ...WTH voted for your Boy…now he’s so DISGUSTED…he may never vote again , how many others… ..all Bush did was remind the citizens ( with their short attention span ) of all that is wrong with Amerika….but pigs may fly ; if the Dems play the same dumb game , they have been…that IS your only hope….
Your 1000 year reich is only…what…maybe…25 years old…and you talk’in like it’s a done deal…
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 20, 2006 at 7:34 PM “first, every single recount undertaken after the Florida and Ohio debacles showed that Gore and Kerry had the most votes,”
This is simply untrue or intentionally misleading (perhaps you mean that they won the US popular vote, which is not relevant to determining victory in our political system).
That said, in the election of 2000 it really did not matter who won - the vote was split almost exactly equally. (One can’t help but note that if Gore had won his home state, there would have been a clear winner. . .)
“There is no question that politics in this country has become increasingly vicious as the right wing has risen to power.”
Some of this blame is due to the abortion issue being mandated by the courts, as opposed to the congress or states (i.e., voters). Some is due to the investigation of Clinton. Some is due to the strong feeling on both sides about the need (or lack of) for the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
The reason for the bitter politics is that urban liberals and rural conservatives live quite different lives. Which values do we elevate (e.g., self reliance vs social reliance)? Right now the conservatices hace the ball, but eventually the liberals will regain possession (or even better, a third party will emerge with some good ideas and policies).
PS - “Ann Coulter has made a career on lies and slander and misrepresentations of history” Um, ever hear of Mike Moore? Compared to him Ann is, well, pretty anyway. Two sides of a coin. . .
Posted by wolf on Jun 20, 2006 at 9:28 PM The fact that there were voter irregularities in 1960 in no way justifies the same behavior of the Bush campaign in 2000 and 2004. I know that the logic of two wrongs do not make a right appalls conservatives who would enjoy seeing the U.S. turn into a fascist military dicatorship that annihilates the Middle East, Cuba, and Venezuela, but I believe in a better world.
How many millions died when the U.S. suppressed the leftist grassroots uprising in Indonesia in 1965 and installed Suharto. How about all the deaths in Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, Vietnam, and now Iraq? The U.S. has killed tens of millions of people in suppressing independent nationalism over the past century, so scorp, you have no moral high ground upon which to excoriate the U.S.S.R.
Posted by Liberal on Jun 20, 2006 at 9:59 PM Gnade….The Electoral College was created too protect the Republic of the elite from democracy…it’s main purpose is steering the popular vote…it doesn’t matter what the popular vote is the college can go anyway it wants…and don’t even think about 3rd party candidates…the college can elect “Gumby ” if the Republic sees fit…and lets be clear about the ” Republic ” that’s the Dualopoly the two…two…two parties in one…..................
.............Trilateralism bay-bee
p.s….The disparity with the voter machines is that Diebolds big boy is Bushies butt buffer…too the tune of about 2 million in campaign funds…that wouldn’t be a conflict of interest would it ?...
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 20, 2006 at 11:07 PM Naiad -
Will wonders never cease! A coherent leftist! Don’t you feel out of place among the few coherent Conservatives and the large mass of incoherent and incomprehensible leftists on this site? But welcome aboard, regardless.
Now, first you say:
The Soviet Union called itself a socialist society, but it never really was—it was dictatorship of an elite, and its policies, especially under Stalin, were not that different from Tzarist policies!
Well, no shit. And then you say:
The right wing works hard to make sure that labels have either negative connotations or positive ones—and that their enemies are associated with the negative ones, no matter how untrue or inaccurate—that’s why the right wing still brings up the old communist bugaboo—it still works as a negative label that produces a knee-jerk reaction of fear, loathing or scandal.
Well, yes. It is easy to label and criticize self-identified socialists when they are killing tens of millions of innocent victims. And “Bushitler” is a neutral label, of course.
But the problems of socialists goes W-A-A-A-A-A-Y beyond the Soviet Union. Even now, socialist old Europe is stagnant, corrupt, and inefficient, and is dying off at a rate greater than when the communists were killing off tens of millions of their own people.
And, if you were paying attention, I pointed out that:
Every time the elite leftists succeed in electing a leftist as President (Johnson, Carter, Clinton), there follows an economic disaster (economic stagnation, inflation and interest rate catastrophe, bubble crash and recession, respectively), sort of like the Soviet Union was throughout its long unhappy Marxist existence.
Now, the problem is that, independent of context (SU, Europe, USA, or elsewhere), when Marxist thought becomes a factor, and socialist economic policies are applied, decline and corruption follow, not to mention “fear, loathing (and) scandal”; there has never been an exception to this rule. Regardless, Marxist thought remains popular among obsessive-compulsive socialists, sort of like opium for the obtuse.
And free-market economics in a democratic environment consistently delivers jobs, growth, and efficiency unparalleled in the world, unless interrupted by some Dimocrat ding-a-ling coming in, raising taxes, and screwing the economy, as we have consistently seen. The promises of socialism remain promises after one hundred fifty years, and I wonder that more-or-less coherent people, such as yourself, enjoy being lied to (or self-deluded), decade after decade after decade.
Posted by scorp on Jun 20, 2006 at 11:52 PM It seems to me that the real problems were with the exit polls, not the voting machines.
Exit poll information was released prematurely and improperly, and there was a problem with one of the pollster’s servers:
Preliminary exit poll results had leaked throughout the day and were posted on a number of Web sites, including the widely viewed Drudge Report site, which added to the confusion and fanned the media frenzy.
To compound the problem further, a server at Edison/Mitofsky malfunctioned shortly before 11 p.m. The glitch prevented access to any exit poll results until technicians got a backup system operational at 1:33 a.m. yesterday.
The crash occurred barely minutes before the consortium was to update its exit polling with the results of later interviewing that found Bush with a one-point lead. Instead, journalists were left relying on preliminary exit poll results released at 8:15 p.m., which still showed Kerry ahead by three percentage points.
The exit pollsters themselves later admitted problems with methodology:
Interviewing for the 2004 exit polls was the most inaccurate of any in the past five presidential elections as procedural problems compounded by the refusal of large numbers of Republican voters to be surveyed led to inflated estimates of support for John F. Kerry, according to a report released yesterday by the research firms responsible for the flawed surveys.
In addition, by averaging regular polls taken shortly before the election, the result matches the final tally nearly exactly.
In neighboring Pennsylvania, there is very good reason to suspect voter fraud favoring Kerry. That state was polled (not exit polls) to be pretty much a toss-up, but ended up going to Kerry. Should it really have? Should there be an investigation?
A real, huge discrepancy in exit polls vs final results doesn’t seem a concern when it comes to Venezuela. Here, a 60-40 exit poll against Chavez transformed into a 60-40 victory for him in the end. In this case, we’re told that of course the exit polls were unreliable and skewed.
Posted by Natalie on Jun 21, 2006 at 12:04 AM WTH…If you are driving and Ted is drink’n….just make sure they’re no females in the car…would’nt want to catch a ” wrongful death beef ” or worst ” a rape charge ” you know the senator likes too walk around naked…..”..you don’t pick up a knife and fork unless you’re ready to dine.”.....nephew Smitty ?......”. Will The Senator From Massachusetts…Keep Both Hands On The Dash Board…....please ! ? ! ”
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 21, 2006 at 12:22 AM WTH…You know that was the joke during the confirmation hearings for Clarence Thomas…all those senators sitting up on that panel ; ask’n Anita Hill questions about Long Dong…and pubic hairs and all that nonsense….”..Sir..Senator…Sir…Will All The Senators Keep Both Hands On The Table….Sir…Senator Kennedy..Sir…Both HANDS On The Rostrum…Sir.”.........As filthy minded ; can’t send your child too be a Capital Hill Page without being molested..doin it in the bathroom with some 12 year old boys..nasty masochistic power hunger freaks….gonna sit up on that panel and ask Anita Hill questions about sex.,... the duplicitous hypocrisy ! !..”..Both Hands On The Table Senator…Not One..Both Hands…Sir ”
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 21, 2006 at 1:17 AM I wonder, will tina-1 kill herself if the dems win in nov.? If so, how many neo-con nazi’s will follow her if hilary makes president. If I was going to kill myself under neo-con rule I would have done it already. U.S. has to kill another 2500 gi’s and stay the course for another 10 years like nam.
Bush is for big government, big tax breaks for the rich, big debt, nation rebuilding. lobbist went from 15,000 to 33,000, scooter libby treason in time of war, and bush is a conservative? I work on an army base and we are going broke, no money to keep ops running. Some how this must be clintons fault.
Posted by brian28 on Jun 22, 2006 at 4:00 PM Brian -
Since the Dims are (1) fanatical (2) losers, how about you? Are you willing to lay down your life for the Dim cause?
Think carefully about this before you commit yourself. The titular head of the Dimocrat Party is John Kerry, by virtue of his being the Dim presidential candidate in 2004. The main rap on Kerry was his flip-flop ways, not normally a desirable characteristic in a president. So Kerry has opened his quest for renomination by—- flip-flopping, again, on the war in Iraq, again. Kerry’s Senate Resolution to cut and run in Iraq just lost in the vote in the Senate. That is the third Congressional vote on Iraq this week, and the Dims have lost every one of the votes by overwhelming margins.
The other three Dims in primary leadership positions are Reid, Pelosi, and Dean. The most attractive and rational of the lot is Screaming Howard Dean, designated loser (by Dim Party officials) in 2004, which gives a quick index of the Dim prospects in the future. Plus Dean is again pursuing the nomination, and is using DNC money and influence to support himself and his goals, not the Dim Party goals, whatever they might be (no one is saying, probably because no one knows).
The foremost military misspokesman for the Dims is John Murtha, an ambitious, aggressive, senile gentleman, who wants to put the Iraq quick reaction force in Okinawa, eight time zones away. Who writes Murtha’s stuff anyway, Karl Rove? Murtha proposed himself for a House leadership position, in spite of ethical problems, and emphatically against Pelosi’s vain attempts to create some sense of harmony (!) among the Dimocrats.
But I do wish you well with the nomination of Hillary Clinton; she would be the ideal Dim nominee for president. The Dim powers have already rejected Hillary, like they rejected Dean in 2004, because of her strong negatives; half of the USA says they would not vote for Miss Hillary under any circumstance. I can handle that.
Posted by scorp on Jun 22, 2006 at 6:14 PM This excerpt from a recent article on tompaine.com summarizes nicely the tactics the GOP used to help steal the presidential election in Ohio in 2004:
“Start with the run-up to Election Day. Acting under orders from a partisan Republican Secretary of State, J. Kenneth Blackwell, who also co-chaired the state’s Bush-Cheney campaign, local officials purged 300,000 voters from the state between 2000 and 2004. Did Democratic groups registering new voters in the summer of 2004 know they were playing catch-up, not getting ahead, with registration? No. Did these same groups know which precincts in minority and other Democratic strongholds would receive insufficient numbers of voting machines, causing thousands of people to leave without voting? No. Did they know which precincts were going to be relocated? No. Did they know that outdated voter lists would be delivered to those precincts? No. Did they know last-minute rules would invalidate provisional ballots if they were turned in at the correct precinct but the wrong table? No.
Ohio’s secretary of state defended these—and other tactics—in congressional field hearings in early 2005 as prerogatives of local control. In a nation with 13,000 separate and unequal election jurisdictions, heavy-handed partisan elections are exactly what the southern Republicans want to see written into a renewed National Voting Rights Act.
But it’s not just southern Republicans who want to game the election system. What else did Ohio’s Secretary of State do under the false guise of local control? He rewrote the voter registration laws to reject applications that weren’t on the right weight of paper. He made it harder for provisional ballots to be validated. Provisional ballots allow people to vote who believe they are registered but don’t find their names on the rolls at a polling place, with election officials later investigating to verify the voter’s eligibility. Blackwell threw up obstructions to the validation process by moving Democratic precincts without informing voters, not training poll workers and requiring new identification. He tried to summon 10,000 students to a sports arena saying they had to prove their registrations were valid. He stood with GOP officials who said they were going to try to stop 35,000 people from voting at the polls. He ran television ads that didn’t tell people they could also vote at county boards of election.
Of course, the Democratic Party and their allies will never admit they should have known better and acted to stop these tactics. But you can read between the lines of the DNC’s 2005 report on Ohio that said 2 percent of Ohio’s 5.8 million voters who intended to vote were stopped from doing so. That’s 116,000 voters in a state where George W. Bush’s margin of victory was 118,775 votes.
On Wednesday, House Republicans reminded Americans that the ghost of Jim Crow is still hovering over our elections. It’s time for Democrats and voting rights activists to look up from their computers and pay attention to the tactics that the Republicans are embracing and continuing to espouse. The problems with electronic machines will remain. But to ignore the ways the GOP wants to disenfranchise voters, complicate voting, discount ballots and manipulate the vote count is to duplicate what happened in 2004. Does the left really want history to repeat itself?”
Posted by Liberal on Jun 22, 2006 at 6:53 PM Scorp said: “And free-market economics in a democratic environment consistently delivers jobs, growth, and efficiency unparalleled in the world.”
The problem with that statement is that the United States has consistently favored autocracy that allows unfettered foreign investment over democratic movements in nations that promote socialism. The U.S. helped Suharto to massacre the left-wing social movements in Indonesia in the 1960s, which from that point on contained the “virus” of leftist nationalism in Southeast Asia. Look at the horrors the U.S. bought to Cuba after Castro came to power in 1959, or the decades long atrocities the U.S. funded in Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Haiti, all in the name of “free trade” and neoliberal economic policies. The U.S. tried to overhtrow the democratically elected Hugo Chavez in Venezuela in 2002 because his domestic policies did not comport with U.S. multinational corporate interests. yet the right wing and its mouthpiece at the Wall Street Journal editorial page laud the “re-election” of Uribe in Colombia, despite his clear connections to fascist paramilitary groups and recent revelations that his government had penetrated the ranks of universities in an attempt to undermine the political views of faculty. The last left-wing political party in Colombia was utterly destroyed when over 3,000 of its members were systematically murdered by right-wing paamilitary groups, thus ensuring the continued viability of a fascist right-wing regime that America has so ardently supported.
The market by itself has no concern for the workers who create wealth, just the owners who control it. The market has no corrective measure for the way it unfavorably treats women and minorities. The Enron case celarly demonstrated the inability of the market to correct itself from excess and unethical behavior. Without the collusion of several major investment firms and banks, Enron would never have been able to continue on as long as it did.
Coca-Cola colludes with the fascist militias in Colombia to intimidate and murder union and human rights activist who criticize the company for its working conditions. Wal-mart relies on slave-labor to maintain its low prices. Oil companies destroy indigenous communities in the third-world with support by the native governments in search for more profits.
There goes your bogus crap assertion scorp. Anymore “theories” you care to espouse?
Posted by Liberal on Jun 22, 2006 at 7:05 PM I am really too busy revising my novel to spend much time here, but a long post that I wrote two days ago did not get posted, so very briefly, I must correct more of Scorpo’s mis-statements.
The U.S. does not have and never has had an “elite-leftist” power structure. Please, please, please get down your Encyclopedia Britannica and start reading everything listed in the Propedia about American history. This is a truly judicious and balanced source of historical information about our country—truly encyclopedic!
Right now, nowhere in the world is there an “elite-leftist” government, not even in Venezuela. No, not in China—a system that is so corrupt because of the financial manipulations of the “party elite” that it can no longer even be called leftist. It has evolved into a classic fascist state.
And no, not North Korea. North Korea has nothing whatever to do with real socialism or social democracy. It is a “politico-religious” state in which the religion is the worship of its inherited dynastic leader who personally owns all the country and everything produced there.
Lastly, has Scorpo ever been to Europe? The right-wing rags about its decline that Scorpo quotes are entirely mythological. It is lovely, and I would move there in a heartbeat. It’s a much better place to raise one’s children right now.
As in the U.S. and Canada, they have a serious immigration problem with illegal migrants coming from Africa and Eastern Europe (for the same reasons that they travel from Latin America to the U.S.), but their way of dealing with it so far has been much more humane—in large part because consensus in the EU requires a lot of compromise and bargaining—things which the Republican Party in the U.S. has completely eschewed.
I love Europe and if I had the money to move there, I’d do it this moment. Austria still has a bit too much of a fascist influence, but Germany is lovely. Is is a paradise? No. Such a place does not exist on this Earth. Is it free of problems? No, for the same reason. And it is not hard to find a job if one is educated, especially if one is multi-lingual. Italy and Spain are economic powerhouses. Italy especially is courting in-migrants with education and young families. Spain has a tremendous export business in Latin American where Spanish businesspeople have been very successful in marketing Spanish products. Switzerland is charming but very expensive. Holland, Belgium and Denmark are really nice—though it is harder to find work. Sweden, Norway and Finland are also economic powerhouses, and all of them have a social-democratic government—and have had such a government for decades. Think of how many products you buy that are made by Swedish companies or marketed by Swedish companies—not just Volvo, but much, much more, especially in the high-tech fields of pharmaceuticals and medical devices. And Nokia—a Finnish company!
To be continued….
Posted by OregonRusalka on Jun 22, 2006 at 8:55 PM When Russia and its former client states left the old communist system behind, they embraced a myth of free-market economics that has caused enormous devastation and human misery. All of those countries would have been much better off if they had followed the mixed economic models of the Scandinavian countries. To a degree, the Baltic countries did, and their economies are the healthiest in the former Soviet bloc.. Don’t believe me? Go travel to those places.
The failure of “cold turkey” conversion to laissez-faire capitalism in the former Soviet countries has had some interesting effects. It scared the hell out of the Chinese political elite to the point that it prevented political liberalization in China. China has become a fascist state. There is little social safety net and millions of Chinese live in dire poverty without health care or any kind of social services. Ah, gee, sounds like another country I know that has become mired in the financial corruption of an unregulated economic elite….
The second aspect of the failure of “cold turkey” laissez-faire capitalism in the former Soviet Union is that it has confirmed the original analysis of such systems made by Karl Marx himself. In essence, in going from a tightly-controlled, pseudo-shared economy, it went overnight to a laissez-faire system. The result is the rise of the oligarchs, the reduction of most of the population to dire poverty, and the collapse of the social service networks that previously supported the have-nots in Russia and Eastern Europe.
Compare this to Germany, which twenty years ago was faced with the sudden prospect of integrating the moribund society of East Germany into the vibrant economic and social life of West Germany. West Germany committed billions of dollars to bringing East Germany up to technological parity with the former West Germany. No German starved or went without medical care, while former East Germans were retrained for new jobs. It wasn’t all peaches, of course. The tax burden on relatively rich West Germans was large, but after twenty years of social, economic and political investment, Germany is one nation where everyone is on a nearly equal footing. Yes, there are lingering resentments among a small number of Germans. Yes, there is dissatisfaction in the populace, but it is a very small percentage of the population.
The chancellor of West Germany was honest with his citizens in the late 80’s—he told them that it would take decades to integrate East Germany into the new Germany and he told them it would cost money. But he also told them it was a moral imperative, that they could not turn their backs on their fellows in the east who had suffered for so long under the most repressive Eastern Bloc government. The Germans used a combination of socialist and capitalist programs to integrate their country and their countrymen. Mixed economies, in which basic human needs such as health care and public education are provided by collective programs through the agency of democratic government are by far the most successful economies in the world. Gosh, imagine an electorate that responds to a call for social justice as a moral imperative! Boggles my mind.
Lastly, we have never had a “left-wing” president in the US. Not ever! Not even FDR. Neither Clinton nor Carter nor Johnson nor Kennedy were left-wing. Clinton in particular led a right-of-center administration that was very pro-business, and a major reason that we have such a terrible problem with illegal immigrants right now is NAFTA and other “free trade” agreements, which basically ensure “free trade” for big corporations, but poverty and destitution for small farmers and factory workers.
None of the deluded right-wingers who post here will be able to admit the truth of what I’ve written, but at least their deliberate misrepresentations have been exposed for the record.
Posted by OregonRusalka on Jun 22, 2006 at 9:07 PM Liberal -
Getting a little incoherent, aren’t you?
My comment, which you quoted, related directly to the outstanding performance of the American economy, as long as Democrats are not in office. You got off on every possible silly leftist rant, mostly on situations in foreign countries.
When you did address the domestic economy, you said:
The Enron case celarly (sic) demonstrated the inability of the market to correct itself from excess and unethical behavior.
Well, that is not exactly true, is it? Enron is out of business, and the main perps have been convicted; some of them are already in jail. Neither physical assets nor human skills have been lost, but have been put to more productive use.
At any rate, if Enron was so bad (it was) why didn’t President Clinton and his Attorney General, Janet Reno, do something about it? Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, all the big scandals in the 1990s occurred on Clinton’s watch, and he did nothing to identify or correct the problems. The prosecutions of these criminal acts occurred during the Bush Administration, AGAG presiding.
The reason Clinton did nothing about the biggest crimes that occurred during his Administration was that he was too busy: diddling Monica, or whomever, or whatever. Same thing with Janet Reno; she was too busy killing the Branch Davidians and sending Elian Gonzalez back to Cuba to worry about a long string of the largest business scandals in the world.
Densan that you are, you probably have not noticed that there have been no similar frauds and scandals during the Bush Administration.
Posted by scorp on Jun 23, 2006 at 2:39 AM Naiad -
Revising your novel? Cool.
The U.S. does not have and never has had an “elite-leftist” power structure.
Well, that is not true, of course. The leftist media and the leftist academy certainly regard themselves as elite, and actively promote their numbnut elitist fellow travelers: Kerry, Reid, Pelosi, Murtha. And there is quite a history in the origin of the elite leftist terminology:
“American radicals and socialists began calling themselves `liberals’.” - F.A. Hayek, 1960.
This nation was founded on liberal principles and ideals from the enlightenment. The hi-jacking of the term `liberal’ to serve the purposes of radicals and socialists was an act of grand larceny, not to mention blatant dishonesty. There is frequent confusion from the use of a term having two diametrically opposed meanings.
It is politically useful for the radicals and socialists to confuse the issue for their own sinister purposes, just as the left always does; the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea is not a democracy, nor a republic. But `democracy’ and `liberal’ are respected terms and radicals and socialists need all the respect they can beg, borrow, or steal. Applying the terms `democracy’ and `liberal’ to radicals and socialists is like applying lipstick to a pig; still pig ugly.
The American left calling themselves “liberal” would be like the Republicans calling themselves “communist thugs” for political advantage.
The term is often modified to `elite liberal’, meaning, in current usage, large groups of wealthy, politically active, educational and professional elites that should know better giving massive amounts of money to left-wing political groups: Soros and ilk, trial lawyers, academy professionals, etc. But the term `elite liberal’ is of more ancient vintage:
“Like the notion of social class itself, the idea of a liberal elite originated on the left, among early 20th-century anarchists and Trotskyites who noted, correctly, that the Soviet Union was spawning a ‘new class’ of power-mad bureaucrats.”
Barbara Ehrenreich, NYT
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0701-03.htm .
Ehrenreich’s reference to a ‘new class’ of power-mad bureaucrats refers back to Milovan Djilas’s 1957 analysis of corruption and failure among the communist elites after WWII. Djilas wrote-up his analysis in his book, The New Class, still a very timely read.
The governing principles and bureaucratic excesses of leftists are universal, whether in the collapsed Soviet Union, stagnant Old Europe, or Democratic Party-induced economic slowdowns (the Bubba Bubble) and social disasters (LBJ’s Great Society Welfare program) in America. Radicals and socialists have plagued the left and the right since the early days of communism. The least we can do is to call them by their rightful labels: radical and socialist. Save the term `liberal’ for the noble ideals for which it was originally intended.
You elite leftists have long exhibited a consuming rage toward President Reagan, Prime Minister Thatcher, and President Bush fils. At times it makes you irrational and incoherent. Simon Heffner has an article, Wrong, defeated, humiliated: why the Left still hates Lady Thatcher, in today’s Telegraph. The article brings startling clarity to the uncertain motivations of the left, and is worth a read.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=KD155I4B1JHABQFIQM FCFF4AVCBQYIV0?xml=opinion/2006/06/21/do2102.xml&sSheet;=/opinion/2006 06/21/ixop.html
Posted by scorp on Jun 23, 2006 at 4:23 AM OregonR….My cousin is living and working in Germany as we speak…loves it…this is her second time living in Germany ; says she would love to retire there….
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 23, 2006 at 5:27 AM I wonder, will tina-1 kill herself if the dems win in nov.? If so, how many neo-con nazi’s will follow her if hilary makes president. If I was going to kill myself under neo-con rule I would have done it already. U.S. has to kill another 2500 gi’s and stay the course like nam.
Bush is for big government, big tax breaks for the rich, big debt, nation rebuilding. lobbist went from 15,000 to 33,000, scooter libby treason in time of war, and bush is a conservative? I work on an army base and we are going broke, no money to keep ops running. Some how this must be clintons fault.
Posted by brian28 on Jun 23, 2006 at 5:16 PM You elite leftists have long exhibited a consuming rage toward President Reagan, Prime Minister Thatcher, and President Bush fils. At times it makes you irrational and incoherent.
Just like right wing nuts hate the clintons and all dems. Who is calling the kettle black here? This is why nothing is getting done in congress or the senate. The rage of hate between the two parties no matter who is in charge will result in nothing getting done for years to come.
Posted by brian28 on Jun 23, 2006 at 5:25 PM “The rage of hate between the two parties no matter who is in charge will result in nothing getting done for years to come.”
Too true. If only people - including politicians - would be respectful of different points of view (which seems unlikely, cause anyone who thinks different is a bigot, or wimp, or traitor, or, ad nauseam) and be willing to compromise (same problems) this would be a better place. Of course, that means winning - and losing - with dignity.
Posted by wolf on Jun 23, 2006 at 5:43 PM Wolf, Brian28….I don’t think the Dems vs. Rep is the issue….the idea is for them to debate…then find solutions….What is really going on is a kind of dog and pony show…good cop…bad cop shakedown….with the citizienry as the shill….These guys on Cap Hill are playing the citizenry for fools…Think…just think ,when was the last election where instead of a Star Search type campaign…politicians ran on real grass root type issues , money needs to be taken out of the equation…and candidates should be limited to specific talking points…hard line rules should be applied like in sports so everyone is clear on what can and can’t be said or done…transparency..total transparency…......As is Dem + Rep = Daulopolgy meaning one party dictatorship…Republican = Bad Cop Trilateralism ; Democrats = Good Cop Trilateralism….the only difference is the Democrats use more morphine…where as the Republicans don’t care about the pain they inflict.on others…..
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 23, 2006 at 10:07 PM Ah, Scorpo, I am laughing out loud! Clearly, you at least enjoyed my typos—did that give you a sense of superiority? Why do you need it? I type fast, and I don’t always take the time to check for typos, especially in such a forum as this, where grammar is pretty much “as you like it” generally. Why should that matter more than content?
Wolf, Redhorse and Brian28 seemed to understand what I wrote without a translation.
Your two comments in reply to mine prove my case better than anything else I could write here. Confusion is “always politically useful” for all ideologues. You are ranting without basis in fact.
Recently, a neurological researcher studied two study groups which consisted of adamant Democrats and adamant Republicans. What he found was that both could not use the rational faculties of their brains when talking about the other. It was fascinating. When both groups were given a chance to rhetorically bash their perceived enemies, the pleasure centers of their brain were activated—the same areas that respond to cocaine, etc! Scorp is clearly addicted to the same happy feeling—it also explains Rush Limbaugh! And not just what he does on the air!
I feel sorry for you, Scorpo, because at some point your delusions will have real consequences for someone you love—when that happens, you will discover that the life you think you have is not the reality. Meanwhile, you will have to find someone else with more time to precipitate your political pleasure response. I don’t enable addicts.
Posted by OregonRusalka on Jun 24, 2006 at 12:16 AM OregonRusalka…..I very much agree…the problem in amerika , is the nation fails to see the true nature of it’s immature reaction too world events…. the majority of these misconceptions are pretty much force feed to the general public by news media and policy hawks….Carl Rovian Conditioning , also amerika by it’s own evolution is a very xenophobic nation….europe has had more time too ” get it right “....One would think it would be wise to learn from ones elders…but such is life ...
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 24, 2006 at 1:24 AM Brian -
Point proven. You quoted me as follows:
You elite leftists have long exhibited a consuming rage toward President Reagan, Prime Minister Thatcher, and President Bush fils. At times it makes you irrational and incoherent.
And then you say:
Just like right wing nuts hate the clintons and all dems. Who is calling the kettle black here? This is why nothing is getting done in congress or the senate.
Nothing is getting done in congress or the senate? Nothing at all? NOTHING???
“Nothing” covers a lot of territory. Here is a partial list of Congressional votes during the Bush Administration that were passed with Democratic Party support, often with “irrational and incoherent” resistance from elite leftists:
1) Tax Cut Act 2001
During the last year of the Clinton Administration, 2000, the Bubba Bubble (NASDAQ) crashed, losing over 80% of its value, the DOW peaked and started down, millions of people lost billions of dollars as the markets declined, and GDP stopped growing and saw quarterly decline. This was a very hazardous situation, similar to the crash of the Japanese Bubble in 1991, when the Nikkei Index declined by over two-thirds, and the Japanese economy went into a fifteen-year recession.
In an economic bind of this nature, the only known remedy is to provide capital for investment and growth, and the only known sources of capital are tax cuts and reduced interest rates, if possible. In a time of economic stagnation, President Kennedy lowered taxes and thus improved the economy and increased tax receipts, much to the astonishment of some Old Economists. At the time of the Carter Catastrophe, President Reagan lowered taxes and initiated economic reforms, and thus improved the economy and increased tax receipts, much to the astonishment of elite leftists who could scarcely credit their own senses, much less credit President Reagan. And at the time of the Bubba Bubble Recession, President Bush lowered taxes and initiated economic reforms, and thus improved the economy and increased tax receipts, much to the astonishment of elite leftists who could scarcely credit their own senses, much less credit President Bush. As you can see, elite leftists are a rather dense lot.
The elite leftist media and academia do everything they can to discredit the solid economic accomplishments of the Bush Administration, but at a cost; nobody believes them anymore, and the Old Media are losing customers, revenues, and profits. Which would not make any difference in the Soviet Union (before the collapse, of course), but this is not the Soviet Union.
Continue ...
Posted by scorp on Jun 24, 2006 at 3:04 AM 2) Afghanistan War Resolution, 2001
Iraq War Resolution 2002Following 09/11, there was strong bipartisan support for overthrowing terrorist regimes and installing democracies to replace them. The success in this endeavor has been nothing short of spectacular. Fifty million people are now living in nascent democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan, and their security services are being constantly upgraded. When Libya’s Qaddafi saw the videos of Saddam getting his tonsils checked by American personnel, Qaddafi opted out of the terrorist business, and the substantial remnants of Libya’s nuclear program are now lying in boxes in a warehouse in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Inspired by the American commitment to freedom and democracy, Georgia, Ukrania, and Lebanon instituted their own freedom and democracy movements, with considerable success. The free press in Iraq, in particular, is broadcasting results of the elections and political debates in Iraq, and all of a sudden, beautiful democracy is stirring in the ugliest, most backward area of the globe, the Middle East; Sa’udi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait, and Oman are now gingerly exploring this democracy thing that has caused such enthusiasm in Baghdad. Irani terrorism is not nearly as big a threat to the world as Iraqi democracy is a threat to the corrupt Irani mullahs.
And the cost of the Iraqi and Afghani efforts have been minimal; in terms of civilian casualties, American casualties, and dollars. With the single exception of Gulf I, the current war is the least expensive American war ever fought, by an order of magnitude. For example, American fatalities in Iraq are just 4% of the fatalities in the Dimocrat cock-up in Vietnam, and the results in Vietnam were the murder of two million Vietnamese, after the Dimocrats refused further assistance to the South Vietnamese after our withdrawal.
And the elite leftists, such as Kerry and Murtha, who voted for Afghanistan and Iraq: do you think that they are taking credit for the big victory for freedom and democracy that resulted from their vote? Don’t be stupid. They are voting to cut and run from Iraq like they decided to cut and run from Vietnam.
I have difficulty believing that the elite leftists are opposed to democracy as such, but they obviously prefer a failure of President Bush’s efforts in Iraq to success of democracy in Iraq. Tough shit, leftists.
3) Anti-War Resolutions 2006
Three Anti-War Resolutions were voted on in Congress this week, one of them sponsored by John Kerry, uber-leftist. All of them failed, by wide margins.
So, your point that “nothing is getting done in congress or the senate” is nonsense. You might even say it is “irrational and incoherent”. But now we are back to where this conversation started. You really are irrational and incoherent.
Posted by scorp on Jun 24, 2006 at 3:09 AM Naiad -
Clearly, you at least enjoyed my typos - did that give you a sense of superiority?
Enjoyed your typos? Enjoyed? Your? Typos? Enjoyedyourtypos???
Umm, no, as a matter of fact. After your latest post, I went back and reread everything you have posted on this thread. I noticed no typos the first time through, I see no typos now, and I certainly did not correct or comment on any typos. I rather admire your lack of typos and your clarity of [removed]appropriate for a self-confessed novelist), if not your ideological orientation. Unlike Redhorse, for example, who is basically illiterate.
And I maintain that I am the least superior visitor to this site. That is why I try to avoid typos, and such, much more errors of logic and fact, and such.
Which brings up a point. You obviously disagree with what I have written, but you have made no response whatever to the logic or fact of what I have written. Instead, you go off on a tangent about psychological studies. Which is fine, I have some interest in the psychology of problem personalities. Do you have a reference?
Since you are interested in this area, you may be aware of the UCLA study:
..... a team of U.C.L.A. researchers analyzed the neural activity of Republicans and Democrats as they viewed a series of images from campaign ads. And the early data suggested that the most salient predictor of a ‘‘Democrat brain’’ was amygdala activity responding to certain images of violence ... Such brain activity indicates a kind of gut response, operating below the level of conscious control.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/22/magazine/22IDEA.html
How interesting! Democrats tend to exhibit more amygdala activity in response to provocative stimuli. But the amygdala is the seat of the emotions. Are Democrats more emotional than Republicans? Since emotional responses tend to overwhelm all other input and output, more emotional necessarily means less rational. That would certainly explain the Democrats lurching from political topic to political topic, with no coherent plan, and lots of internecine conflict.
If you feel you need to spend your energy elsewhen, feel free. I sense you are up against a factual and logical block anyway. Enjoy.
Posted by scorp on Jun 24, 2006 at 4:22 AM Redhorse
Don’t give up, you are doing fine, and re-enforcements are closer than you think. You are stuck in a cave full of trolls, and morons. WTH is often seeming reasonable, so don’t be so surprised, he and even Wolf can be sensible enough so long as their core beliefs are not being challenged at which time the hysteria takes over. Cognitive Dissonance is still a amjor problem for them both. Tiny one, is a broken troll and not to be taken seriously. She has been going around in silly circles for a while and her ability to even communicate is hampered by her problem.
Hang in there, when we have finished reading down the thread, a few comments will be in order.
In the meantime the rabbit would like to point out that the elections of 2000 and 2004, have been PROVEN to have been stolen, won by fraud alone,. The exit polls tell the extent of it, but the actual records of disenfranchised voters and the freaky machines and the witnesses to many irregularities (Like altering records and burning lots of unwanted ballots rather than count them) are what put paid to any claim of legitimacy. The electoral commission itself, not to mention international bodies have declared the elctions to be disreputable.
Just for a bit of spice though, the rabbit wishes to point out that as usual the Bushling is a complete liar and fraud and warmongering sack of shit. Iran is a saintly nation next to the evil SHRUB and his beastmen cronies.
This week an interesting story appeared in The Washington Post—buried on page 16, of course, lest anyone think it was of the slightest importance. It revealed that documentary proof has now emerged confirming the fact that in the spring of 2003, the regime of President George W. Bush—flush with its illusory “victory” in Iraq—spurned a wide-ranging peace feeler from Iran that offered “full cooperation” on every issue that the Bushists claim to be concerned about in regard to Tehran: “nuclear programs, acceptance of Israel and the termination of Iranian support for Palestinian militant groups.”
In other words, everything that Bush says he wants from the Iranians now, he could have had for the asking—three years ago. What then can we conclude from the rejection of this extraordinary initiative? The answer is obvious: The Bush faction is not really interested in curbing nuclear proliferation or defusing the powder keg of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and the regional and global terror that it spawns.
Hello Scorpy, Rabbit is glad as always to see you. Lots of big long boring posts to try and hold out the criticism I see, Rabbit is proud of his troll, you’ve not changed a bit. Hi WTH, Rabbit hears word of your ocasional appearance of rationality, with the caveat that you still suffer from creative delusionalism when the core beliefs get rattled. Tiny one, Rabbit is trying to find your owner, pehaps she can help you with your problems. Was there a smell of Bat somewhere in this thread? Could there be a Natty Batty amongst these fine morons?Oh my GOD! Rabbit checking just saw .......Jay Decline. Wow! Having been told of this thread, Rabbit expressed excitement, but speculated about how such a lineup of morons could only be improved with the additional cherry on top, of the greatest moron ever seen on ITT, Jay Bird, the man himself. Now having arrived, Rabbit sees his prayers have been answered. Hello Jay…......^^..............Have you missed the rabbit?
I’ll bet some of you trolls are thrilled with the new editing arrangements. You can go back and change your posts. The denial and delusion defense just got light years easier for you guys I guess. When you stick your feet into your mouths and are caught out, you can just go back and remove the foot, pretending it never did happen. Jay especially should find that useful.
Rabbit just likes to be able to fix some of his less fortunate spelling errors.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 24, 2006 at 12:15 PM OregonRusalka
Thanks for the concise and precise message about Russian communism and Marx. It has been getting the rabbits goat lately listening to idiots gabbling on about communism and socialism and Marx etc as if they have a clue. Also the idiotic prognostications about Islam which similar types of idiots engage is getting tired. What is missing often is a simple and straight forward refutation to them. Something so simple they cannot slither around it. Thanks.
The debate about Kennedy is a silly red herring, why does anyone want to bother with it? He wasn’t president, and there is a big difference between a few thousand and a few hundred thousand votes being stolen, or omitted as the case is.
What the hell has it got to do with the fact that the most unsuccessful and most unpopular US president in history achieved his position by blatantly disenfranchising tens of thousand of black voters and others mostly likely to vote against the fraudsters?
Just because everyone is doing it has also been a distinctly unsuccessful excuse for naughty children as well as naughty politicians. To cheat is one thing. To cheat and then trash the country as well as a few other peoples countries is a whole other scale of naughtiness.
WOW!!! I’m watching superman 3 on the side here as I sit late in the office and Superman just welded up the broken sides of the ship which he broke whilst being a bad superman an hour or so earlier. He welded up the sides of the ship with his X-ray vision. It looked like lasers to me, but heck what do I know, I’ve never seen welding done with lasers or X-rays, but the rabbit is a welder, and was distinctly impressed with that. Superman can weld with his eyes, how excellent. Practical too. Better than running faster than a bullet I reckon..
“More powerful than a speeding locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, he can even weld metal with his eyes…...Superman” ....Welders will understand.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 24, 2006 at 12:31 PM Of course as someone said early on, Redhorse I think, the whole thing is a dog and pony show. The elite has their candidate in both camps as they did with Kerry and Bush. Personally Rabbit expects they are setting the stage for a woman, and that woman is probably going to be the Clinton Bitch. It is hard not to feel contempt for anyone who actually thinks there is anything significant to be argued between Democratic and Republican deck chairs. The titanic is still committed to the same course.
Gnade
There is another defense of the electoral college which occurs to Rabbit.
All you Americans will do well to pay attention to the hopper, right now at least, because it occurs to me despite my foreign status that this may be of consequence.
The name United States of America infers that it is a Union of States. As such the STAES are being recognised implicitly as independant entities in the primary unit, the UNION. As such it is the STATE which is entered and represented in that UNION. Not the individuals who make up that STATE, except in the abstract. It is the entity of the state which is part of a UNION of STATES.
This is to him interesting since this rabbit as you can see by the little mostly blue flag in the corner is from the land downunder where we do things a bit differently, but with the same or at least similar results of course. (What difference does a hundred IQ points make if they are both merely NWO puppets?)
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 24, 2006 at 12:52 PM scoop or scorp thanks for the neo-con rant on congress doing a good job. With a 25% approval rating, there doing a heck of a job ol scorpy.
Posted by brian28 on Jun 24, 2006 at 5:45 PM Hey, folks…
“The rage of hate between the two parties no matter who is in charge will result in nothing getting done for years to come.”
Congress gets done what it wants to get done. For all else they have ways to delay or move on to the most “urgent” business. (Remember most of these guys are lawyers and stalling is Legal Tactics 101.)
Some examples:This will take a while — send it to a committee.
• Health Care — extremely complex problem (decades required)
• Social Security and Medicare (“They’re old — they’ll forget or just die off.”)
• Border security/illegal immigration — requires a “comprehensive” 300 plus page senate (amnesty) bill be merged with the house (no amnesty by ANY name) bill. “Let’s wait until after the November elections — they’ll forget about it.”
• Katrina (with a bit of luck another will hit and we can start over)
—————————-Very urgent.
• Discussion of the gay marriage amendment
The most urgent (so much so it is on autopilot)• Congressional pay raise
—————————-Special category (Let’s just say we we’ll do it.)
• Dubai port sale — nothing has been offered on the market (3 months)
• 2000 New border guards per year — not funded (2 years — 200 guards)
—————————-It doesn’t matter which party is in the majority — they’re a tag team.
Seriously now —
What could be more important or urgent than establishing fair and honest voting procedures? It should be something every legitimate, honest candidate for office would make a priority. If I were elected I would want the result to be verifiable and believable. Wouldn’t you?What can be more important than trust? It must be earned. It must be maintained. Without it little of any real value can be accomplished.
So, just how soon can we expect any congressional action on election reform? It hasn’t even gone to committee as far as I know. It is no doubt a complicated problem which will need much study before a comprehensive plan can be agreed upon.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 24, 2006 at 9:10 PM WTH
Agree 100% on no computer voting. People doing stuff is good for democracy, I’ve seen how involved they are here.US is so big , would take v many observers to sort out the most racist and otherwise crooked areas.
A worthy fight for those who fight for it, because if they start to win, (not tomorrow morning) the consequences will range very far ....
Posted by frog on Jun 24, 2006 at 10:13 PM Just for a bit of spice though, the rabbit wishes to point out that as usual the Bushling is a complete liar and fraud and warmongering sack of shit. Iran is a saintly nation next to the evil SHRUB and his beastmen cronies.
In his response to questions from the audience, Ganji talked about the specific Iranian laws and regulations that ban people from writing for life. “The laws of the Islamic Republic of Iran say that anybody who engages in propaganda against the state is punishable for one month up to a year. During the last eight years, most journalists in Iran have been accused of this. According to paragraph 8 of article 6 of the current Press Law, any journalist who is judged to have engaged in propaganda against the regime is banned from journalism for the rest of his life,” Ganji said, adding, “I think the Islamic Republic of Iran is the only country in the world that still has laws banning journalists from writing.”
Meanwhile, the Christian republic of America has no plans to arrest or ban from journalism for life, reporters and editors from the New York Times, the Washington Post, or the Wall Street Journal for publishing classified national security information on a regular basis.
In other news, Iranian women held a major rally in Tehran two weeks ago to demand the end of legal discrimination. The protest was brutally crushed by the hardline government of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, with some 70 arrests. But the event also marks a major turning point for the women’s movement.Meanwhile, back in America, the evil administration of George W. Bush admits lagging far behind in its arrest of women protesters, having arrested so far none since their evil regime took power. When asked to account for the big goose egg, a spokesman replied, “I guess we’ve just had other things on our plate, what can I tell you? We have definite plans to change that score during upcoming NOW and CODEPINK demonstrations certain to occur as we approach the 2006 mid-terms.”
Posted by Natalie on Jun 25, 2006 at 5:11 AM Natalie….And of course the Civil Rights Movement in amerika was a cake walk….How many times do you folks need to be reminded of amerikas brutal response too anybody who stood up and said no more…I will state this again….Every….Absolutely Every right you and we enjoy in this ” land of freedom ” was fought for by progressive working peoples movements….period….capital could give a rats ass about your need for such silly things as Public Education…or maybe Workmen Compensation…oh no that stuff just happens out of the goodness of rich folks hearts…..Hey…and sense places like Iraq and Iran don,t do thinks the way amerika does ....hey…lets bomb them back too the middle ages….I’m sure this is just what the womens movement in Iran wants….....
MLK stood up and spoke out against the Vietnam War , he wasn’t banned for life….no….he was assassinated…..lnychings…the klan…..The Illegal War In Iraq….Oklahoma Tim McViegh…Kissinger and his support of death squads in central amerika , Negroponte , the same thing….CIA funding for death sqauds in Afrika ,.Central & South Amerika…..the FBI COINTELPRO death squads…FBI backed assassination of Malcolm X…..Fred Hamptons assassination by chicago police , for running a free breakfast program in HIS community…..Angela Davis and her false imprisonment , basically because of her intelligence and the willingness too share this KNOWLEDGE with others…black families being Red Lined for Mortgage Loans….the Indigenous Amerikas..hey…now they got a great deal…right ? ?.......Natalie you have nothing too brag about…..And didn’t that ” tower of christian value and virtue.”..Pat Robertson call for the assassination of one individual , the President of a foreign sovereign nation…HUGO CHAVEZ. the Venezuelan Head of State…..MY QUESTION IS…If Jesus was a liberal , how can all you right-wing christians be so conservative…..
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 25, 2006 at 10:17 AM Natalie
Hello Darling. It is quite a novelty to see you out of the cave.
This rabbit would never dream of suggesting that Iran is perfect, you know by now that nuance is the order of the day, with rabbits. It is true that a normal week of political repression, lack of security and freedom to protest together with secret detentions, government eavesdropping and religious fundamentalism in Iran is not much different than a similar week in the USA.
The point I was making was that on the wider scene, the international scene, Iran had offerred the concessions and more which the lying Bushling and co claim they refuse. This is foreign policy, it is international matters and the things you are reffering too are national concerns of Iran’s. They have nothing whatsovere to do with America, especially since you no longer have any internetaional cred in the democracy or human rights department. Number one human rights abuser, that’s the offical title accorded the USA now. So just you mind your own business, the Iranians are not asking for the Americans to come smashing their way into Iran with guns and bombs to “bring them democracy or freedom American style”.
Bush is a LIAR about Iran being a problem, is the point. You din’t refute it, you merely changed the subject.
I see you’ve not learned any new tricks.
The Bush government is trying to have the journalists who reported the Bush government’s illegal spying on Americans, tried for treason. Despite the fcat those reporters even witheld the truth for a year fist themselves. Can anyone say HYPOCRITE? To the best of my knowledge that carries a fairly heavy penalty in your silly flag humping country. Whether or not it compares to being banned from reporting for life is only a matter of degrees.
If you feel you are permitted to interfere with the internal business of other countries then your own business becomes just as subject to others’ interference too. I know you think that Americans are better than other people Natty. The Nazis were also convinced of their superiority and couched their views in similar language to yours..
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 25, 2006 at 11:39 AM Natty you actually said that the Bushling junta hasn’t arrested any women protesters did you not? Natty have you heard of Cindy Sheehan? Just to name a single one of many women protesters who has been arrested.
Also women protesters and men too, who put up anti bush stickers or protest especially outside of the free speech zones or protest zones or whatever the Newspeak term is for what you now have in place of freedom of speech.
Natalie you silly girl, with 5% of the world’s poulation the USA has 23% of the worlds prison population. Does that register? Of course not, I forget who I’m speaking to.
It seems even to a silly rabbit that for an American to be preaching about freedom from arrest and imprisonment etc, is rather a foolish stunt and doomed to raucous laughter from the gallery.
Ah ha Redhorse, do not be fooled, Natalie is not a Christian. She is a genuine blood sucking, death worshipping Vampire.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 25, 2006 at 11:55 AM Rabbit…yes.but….Tricks are for kids…and again ; Natalie is an example of the fake ass child-like nonsense that goes on in this country….Bush plays that card all day long , no real attention to facts , attack the strength of your opponents argument as being un-patriotic , then scratch…sniff….bob his head…and say something like ” stay the course “......
Christianity is the perfect religion for folks like Natalie…because it requires very little real dicsipline…you see….Jesus is going to take care of them….you really don’t have to repent…they believe ” not by your works , but by His blood will you attain His Glory ” you see….so there is no real incentive for them to do anythang , as long as they go too church on Sunday and pay the minister for lying…it’s all good….
And for the record….Nata-lie…This nations founding so-called fathers practiced ” DEISM ” not Christianity…check it out…..you do read….??
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 25, 2006 at 12:28 PM Redhorse,
I don’t know how it is where you are living, but there has been definite improvement for minorities where I live. (Midwest —150,000 city pop. about 250,000 in surrounding area)
About twenty years ago the president of the local community college said, “People living in the northeast quadrant of the city have moved to this white enclave to escape any chance of integration.” (Maybe he was speaking for himself, since he lived in the same area in a very expensive house on a private lake.) It made the papers and caused quite a stir. Frankly we moved here; 1. Because by building we could get what we wanted for less money down, and 2. the elementary, middle and high schools were all within walking distance.
Now, 39 years later, all the kids are getting bused to distant schools, but the neighbor hood is very well mixed. From my front door I can see a Hispanic family’s house about 50 yards away, a Muslim three doors away and two black families homes from our back porch.
All this came about with no “block busting” and obviously no redlining. There was no mass exodus. Our neighbor on one side has lived there for 38 years, two more on our circle have been here over twenty years and the only houses which have changed hands have been due to deaths.
This has never been mentioned in our paper — most good news is NOT “good news” as far as the media is concerned. Not everything is great by any means, but people have let it happen naturally without objections or any hassle that I know of.
———————————- “Christianity is the perfect religion for folks like Natalie…because it requires very little real discipline…you see….Jesus is going to take care of them….you really don’t have to repent…they believe “ not by your works , but by His blood will you attain His Glory “ you see….so there is no real incentive for them to do anythang , as long as they go too church on Sunday and pay the minister for lying…it’s all good….”Maybe you were just doing a bit of sarcasm here. I know I have given my religious history before, but this is not the description of Christianity I remember.
“For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” James, 2:26
We were just beginning to agree so often too. I could go on, but even though it’s Sunday I’m into sermons. :-)
Here’s one we can probably both accept…
Virtually all religions have their odd balls, some of the time. Some have wackos all of the time. And wackos seem to find the only REAL religion far too many times.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 25, 2006 at 3:41 PM Frog,
Just goofing off when I said that, but in thinking about it — I can’t give you a religion which does not have their share.
I am no longer interested in religion.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 25, 2006 at 3:53 PM Natalie, I think you have your head stuck in the downward position of the rabbit hole. Rabbit is looking out and seeing much more of this world. We’ll chalk your view up to convenient conservative tunnel vision.
Women not arrested for protest? Lol, though it’s dangerous. We have a Carol Fisher in nearby Cleveland Heights, Ohio who is in jail because a cop saw her posting a “World Can’t Wait” (for the impeachment of G. W. Bush) on a light pole. She was told to take it down and before she could she was taken-down and cuffed by two burly policemen. Fisher is a slightly built, 54 year old woman. The cops accused her of “resistance” and of roughing “them” up. One cop challenged that he was “tired of all these anti-Bush” people. The story goes on and on with a judge who uttered similar sentiments in court, who also stifled those who tried to testify for the defendant. Carol’s been in jail over 3 weeks now waiting for the prosecutor’s office to act on her lawyers’ papers for an appeal. Although Carol is a cancer survivor, she has failed to receive meds she routinely takes in that 3 weeks.
So Natalie, like Alice, work your way out of that mad hatter’s “storyline” and see what’s really going on. You don’t have to look far. It really is not humane . . . right here in the good ol’ U.S.of A..
Posted by sallyb36 on Jun 25, 2006 at 4:29 PM Natalie -
The animals are out in force. But these are not real animals, of course. Who ever heard of a hypocritical horse or a lying lagomorph?
Or an illiterate animal? Red’s mangling of the English language, imaginative spelling, and flawed logic makes him stand out, sort of like an ass at a horse show:
And of course the Civil Rights Movement in amerika (sic) (sic) was a cake walk…......amerikas (sic) (sic) (sic) brutal response too (sic) anybody who stood up and said no more (sic) ...I will state this again….Every ....Absolutely Every right you and we (sic) enjoy in this ” land of freedom ” was fought for by progressive working peoples (sic) movements….period .. (sic) ..
Sic, sic, sic. Red here is referring to Southern Democrats who were the major source of racist activism during the Civil Rights Era: George Wallace, Lester Maddox, the murderers of Emmit Till, etc. But most Americans were not racist or brutal. Republican President Lincoln led the war to preserve the Union and free the slaves. Republican President Eisenhower sent in the federalized National Guard to assure that black students could attend integrated schools in Little Rock. A Republican drafted the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and a higher percentage of Republicans voted for the Act than Dimocrats. And the Civil Rights Act 1964 received more than a two-thirds vote in the Congress, a much more accurate reflection of America’s purpose and ideals than Red’s silly rants.
Then Red credits “progressive working peoples” with “Absolutely Every right you and we enjoy”.
Ummm, no. “Progressive” should be rendered as “communist”, of course. Henry Wallace was a technically gifted and mystical leftist who was removed as FDR’s Vice-President in 1944 for his shrill support of communism and open admiration of Stalin, the bank robber-cum-murderous dictator. Wallace went on to run for president in 1948 on the Progressive Party ticket, receiving a few votes in New York and California, where else? But Americans are not keen on communists, who create death and destruction wherever they gain power. And communists lie and deceive to gain power, as Red and Eidolon Lagomorph are doing now. Communists would like to take credit for the things the American people do, but screw them. The communists’ real legacy is secrets stolen from America and campaigning for a foreign ideology that is murderous and destructive, like the New York Times’ current support of Islamist headhunters and practitioners of human sacrifice.
The reason Horse and Rabbit and the Dimocrats are in such a panic now is that they keep losing elections, and President Bush is transforming the Middle East into peaceful democracies. Communists can only sell their nonsense in times of strife and trouble, and when the Middle East becomes democratic, who is left that they can tyrannize? Not Poland, Estonia, Ukrania. Not Lebanon. Not the democracies of Asia.
Did you know that there were only twenty democracies in the year 1900, and well over one hundred now? Quite a remarkable growth curve, and it is because democracy and free-market economics work, whereas totalitarianism, in all its manifestations (communism, fascism, whatever the Chinese call themselves now), has never worked.
So, the animals will whine, and we will go on about the business of creating freedom and democracy. Enjoy.
Posted by scorp on Jun 25, 2006 at 7:54 PM Ah, who needs war when we have G. W. Bush to bloody our way to peace… or is that pieces? And, as promised, the Iraqis are throwing flowers and cheering us on to murder them more, more… It couldn’t get more tragic. Spare us this fairy tale, please!
Posted by sallyb36 on Jun 25, 2006 at 9:01 PM OH…Scorpy….you finally put your ” little debbie snack cake ” down….Look…the Carl Rove imitation needs work….........Nice try though..
AMERIKA…..AMERIKA…...GOD SHED A TEAR FOR THEE…......AMERIKA….What’s wrong with my spelling…...Pooper Scoopper Scorpy Dorky….smile… aren’t you one of them Happy Republican’ tsAnd Crowned Thy Hood…With Foolishness For Good…From Sea To Shining Sea…..sing it with me Scorp…Be Happy…! ! !
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 25, 2006 at 9:42 PM WTH…..How the Hell you been du-n or doi’n or doing….I don’ t like when Scorp talks Mean about me…sooo I better keep a heads up on my spell’in…dig…Anyway in D.C. Gentrification is the name of the game , a recent article in the Washington Post , followed a young female intern on her summer odyssey in the nations capital…the young lady is making about 16-1700.00 a month…renting a room in a apt. literally 7 ’ X 10 ’ for 1200.00 a month…truth be told she needs to move to MD. and take Metro….700.00 to 800.00 a month for a Effc or 1Br….What you say about your community sounds good , but have you got’n to know these diverse occupants of your Hood…Block parties..community organizations etc…you might hear some interesting revelations about life and what it took to get to that part of town…but I can dig what you are saying…My father build the house he and my moms live in…they retired some while back , the woman who raised my mother bought the property back in the 1940’s the woman lived too be 92…92…I got a way to go to get too 92…As far as my religious reference…I am quite serious…the religious right-crazywings live very much by that credo…but I am like yourself , personally not a believer in any religious doctrine…I do study Gnostic cosmology and the evolution there of
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 25, 2006 at 10:53 PM Hello from frogland Sallyb 36,
In france we still call them “frites” while Scorpy changed his appelation from “french”” to ““freedom” fries.
Some raucous laughter now as as all of us sane people have a bit of light amusement at the lunacy of the Talibanesque American Wing-nuts.
Scorpy is an old friend, and Natalie even more so.
A delight to see them working so closely together at last.
SCORP is the greatest Conspiracy Theorist of them all. Everything progressive in American History, economically, or politically including the Civil Rights legislation , was ACTUALLY done by the GOP !
The so-called “Progressive” movement were actually COMMUNISTS who were rejected by the People, and achieved nothing. And so on.
Nothing here about the real history of the American working class as recounted by Howard Zinn in his People’s History of the US.
( An interesting aside—in French Universities this is on the reading list)
SCORP correctly points out that some Dems were racists. Fine, history is complicated, but far more than fits his Republicanomania.
“Republican President Lincoln led the War to preserve the Union and free the slaves” is pure triangulation and deviation.
This is a classic shill-ploy to get away from the subject, so we can meander off into History.
This is often fascinating and instructive, for us, as we enjoy learning.
The freed slaves were then disenfranchised and persecuted, KKK , a process that lesssened over time , and is now being reversed as the freedom-loving GOP work to take away their votes, once more. Because they are mostly Dem voting.
Rabbit and frog are neither Democrats, nor American, nor losing elections, nor Communists, nor in a panic.!
‘PRESIDENT BUSH IS TRANSFORMING THE MIDDLE EAST INTO PEACEFUL DEMOCRACIES’ is surely the greatest example of SCORPY IDIOCY we have yet seen ?
This is not about disputable historical interpretations, but about what we, IF we look of course, can see to be demonstrably false.
And once more we see how the SCORPY shill is directing attention away from the polluted and corrupt US electoral system.
PS my cousin has worked for the UN , checking elections (dangerously) in the Third World, and we would all be willing to come and help you out, moderate expenses and hefty Life Insurance included.
PPS a good opportunity to meet decent Americans, WTH and many others seen above
Posted by frog on Jun 26, 2006 at 12:55 AM Sally -
When were you born, I mean, what time yesterday?
… It couldn’t get more tragic….
You want tragic? Try Vietnam. American fatalities in Vietnam were 58,000, compared to 2500 in Afghanistan and Iraq. 2500 is about 4% of 58,000. The total cost of Vietnam was 6% of 1972 GDP, while the current cost of GWoT is about one-half of 01% of current GDP. Having lied (Gulf of Tonkin Resolution) to get us into Vietnam, the Dimocrats cut and ran after all that expenditure of blood and treasure. The communist occupation resulted in some two million additional dead, after thirty-five years of more or less continuous warfare in Vietnam. And Afghanistan and Iraq are rising democracies that are beginning to transform the Middle East, while Vietnam, after thirty years of murder, poverty, and backwardness under communist occupation, has just resumed relations with the USA because they need our technical expertise and trade.
Democracy is infectious, while communism is pathological and deadly.
Now I realize you communists don’t mind a few million gallons of blood, as long as it is not your own. But freedom is worth fighting for, if we can negate the terrors of totalitarianism, most particularly communist terrorism, the worst kind ever observed. Now that’s tragic.
Posted by scorp on Jun 26, 2006 at 1:52 AM Bonjour, Froggie -
‘PRESIDENT BUSH IS TRANSFORMING THE MIDDLE EAST INTO PEACEFUL DEMOCRACIES’ is surely the greatest example of SCORPY IDIOCY we have yet seen ?
This is not about disputable historical interpretations, but about what we, IF we look of course, can see to be demonstrably false.
Well, we saved your dumbasses a couple of times in living memory. I can see now that our previous efforts are not appreciated, and we won’t make that mistake again. The next time Le Boche come marching down the Champs Elysees, you are all theirs; we won’t interfere.
But why would we not complete the job in Iraq? Because Monsieur Kerry says no? Are you out of you goddam mind?
The Poles seem to appreciate us more than the French do, but then we have something in common with the Poles; we have both been betrayed by the French. Perfidious Marianne!
Posted by scorp on Jun 26, 2006 at 2:46 AM Hey Mr. Scorp,
Do you have a forked tongue or do you always just talk out of both sides of your mouth?... a study of Rovian tactics? You’re not nearly as good. You need tutoring.You speak of democracy and yet you support this regime, and this so-called leader in power, who speaks of force feeding democracy while denying democratic rights in his own country. It’s all part of that imperialistic design of PNAC, the neocon push to world domination. (See, others can see the design of conspiracies within you and yours.)
Main Entry: au·to·crat
Pronunciation: ‘o-t&-“krat
Function: noun
1 : a person ruling with unlimited authority
2 : one who has undisputed influence or power (That’s what Gonzales says G. W. has.)You called me a communist, loving the loss of others’ blood and then you proclaim liberty to be worth it. You just prattled on about anything and everything; much ado about everything yesterday, nothing pertinent to solving today’s issues,except to label everyone who disagrees with you a communist. Who are you, the fool of fools? You speak in percentages to compare losses of life and treasure? If these lives lost today are so inconsequential, number yourself among them, go fight your “freedom inspired war” and let there be peace on earth.
I’ve heard no one say freedom is not worth fighting for and yet you say I am suggesting that. We watched ” the purpose ” of this war evolve into whatever is convenient for covering up truth, and yet, you have the audacity to proclaim that this is a war for freedom? No, I wasn’t born yesterday but thanks for the compliment. Sir, I must say, in my 70 years I don’t believe I’ve ever met a more determined fool. What a waste of your intellectual strength.
sallyb
Posted by sallyb36 on Jun 26, 2006 at 3:05 AM SCORPY
Sometime back someone pitied your poor family, if you have one, to have such a fundamentally twisted husband, or God-forbid, father of children.IF Aghanistan and Iraq WERE——“RISING DEMOCRACIES”, I , as someone who always has despised the moronic GWB and hated the far more intelligent Blair, would be big enough to admit that their Invasions (though illegal) had had positive results.
I do wish that whatever the motives of the SCUM, GWB and Blair , that they had actually “won”—- that the people could walk on the streets, even after dark, have water to wash their kids with, or drink, and so on.
But life was very easy under Saddam, and the Taliban, compared to under you.
My wish has nothing to do with ISM’s .
For an american such as yourself to say that “Democracy is Infectious” is a bad joke.
Life under the Sandinistas was improving in Nicaragua, since killed by the Contras,and YOU, now even an aspirin has to be paid for by the poor.
Life in Iraq is HELL.. For civilians. For everybody, including the poor invaders.
If Freedom is worth fighting for, the age for enlistment is now 42 -1day.
My sympathies if you are just too old, my gallant warrior..
It has gone as high as 45, historically.But you could always LIE your way in, if you really believe everything you write here ? You could acquire a false identity.
Of course you won’t, because you are an armchair-warrior punk.
It would be unfair to have a fight. 59yr old frog used to teach unarmed combat, and is still ‘quite’ fit; and has not forgotten all the old reflexes , and I’d enjoy watching you shrink into a pissy puddle when faced with a real enemy.
Even if you are fitter and stronger than me, you would lose. I’m angry, you are a piss-ant..
It amuses me when you talk tough, speak of millions of dead as if they were not some mother’s son. Scorp the great geo-strategist and theoretician.
Just a punk.
Posted by frog on Jun 26, 2006 at 3:10 AM Hey Scorpio,
Here are some small numbers for you. Tell these folks how many more people died in Vietnam. Maybe that will make it all OK for them.
http://www.peacetakescourage.com/number.html
Posted by sallyb36 on Jun 26, 2006 at 3:22 AM Damn Scorp does Carl Rove have his hand down your underpants…..you sound just like him that time…much better…much better indeed….The way you marginalize one tragic point of war history ; the internationally illegal conflict in Iraq..by reminding us of a much greater war tragedy ; the so-called police action in Vietnam , were George Junior served with such courage and dis-STINK-tion…OOPS my bad…anyway….maybe if we stay in Iraq 10 years we can beat those dag-blam low combat deaths….I’m con-vinced…...Please Scorpy Scorp do Carl Rove ...Agaain…please…. the way your mouth quivers…when Carl wiggles his fingers….you two should be on Star Search…you know a ventriloquist act…Carl as the Master and you as the Dummy…..
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 26, 2006 at 3:24 AM SCORP
I love the way you wing-nuts say “WE” saved your arses in ww1 and ww2. You were not even a twinkle in your poor daddy’s eye at the time.I bet he was/is a better man than you.
The frogs betrayed the Czechoslovaks, not the Poles.
Their present Polish government is showing itself to be a really reactionary rightwing homophobic bunch of morons, fitting company for your goodself and your ambiguous Wee Georgie Bush.
SALLY
tried your link, failed.
Ain’t poor SCORP a study ?
We’ve been watching him a long time, and are still not quite sure if he is an amateur (troll) idiot or a paid disinfo/cointelpro agent, known to us as a shill.GIVEN that the mighty US gov disburses humungous quantities of $ for the most exrraordinary rubbish, including some 00’s of millions for propaganda thru the media, including the net, watch and see !
Scorp is pretty good, well above-average educated and pretty intelligent, and ain’t he just so MEAN ?
I’ll confer, but I reckon after all he’s just an amateur. Too blatant, too unreasonable.
Natalie is far more subtle, seemingly reasonable for longer stretches , but even she can lose control.
Posted by frog on Jun 26, 2006 at 4:12 AM Sally…Just the other day ;.I ran into an old teammate from my high school football team…we talk for a while.. you know about old times and such…then he made a comment that I think fits CRscorpy ” thats your new name scorpy ” anyway he said , quote ” If Practice Makes Perfect ...and You Practice Ignorance , Sooner Or Later…You Gonna Get Good At It “....reading your response to el Ignor-lame-ass reminded me of what my friend said….........smooth goove Sally…..I must apologize for CRscorpy ; he can be such a ninny..
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 26, 2006 at 4:20 AM frog…CRscorpy could be a shill , but my guess is nada…too Caustic…you don’t sell used cars using Uncle Fester.,the light bulb in the mouth act… just isn’t funny anymore…...My guess is that he’s a down-sizzed , frustrated…too many cupcake eat’in..former Hilter youth camp xenophobe… wannabe big shot caller..that never got asked too the dance…sees Ann Coulter and thinks about her figures on kill ratio…...Instead of her figure…! ?
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 26, 2006 at 4:47 AM Redhorse
That is interesting. Rabbit too once thought Scorp was Karl Rove. He does these Bushisms all independent of the great leader himself.
One of the first things Scorpy told us was that President Bush has said that “the only way to resist and fight terrorism, is to fight and resist terrorism.”
Hello Scorpy I see you are searching for a corner of your mouth into which you can insert your foot. This is good, keep it up, Rabbit will let you know when you have accomplished that mission.
The following is good but not it of course:
Who ever heard of a hypocritical horse or a lying lagomorph?
exactly my dear little dried crust, Hypocrites nor liars are we not. Horse and Rabbit’s don’t tell lies. (Scorp is a dried crust, in Danish, Rabbit always thinks of Scorpy as a dried up crusty troll.)
Hello Sally. Natalie is used to living in the dark. It is the bright light of day which is blinding her. The light of truth. Her head could be stuck in the ground of course she has had it rammed into the earth enough times metaphorically speaking.
Speaking of truth, Scorpy, how does controlling the voting process with corruption and crooked voting machines, amount to a victory to crow about? What lies and deceits are the Rabbit and Horse applying in order to seek power here, dear little Scorpy? It is one thing to say we are lying sneaky deceiving animals but that is just ad-hominem without some examples.
Now Scorpy the Vietnam example is very interesting and Rabbit is glad you mention it.
The casualty figures for Vietnam were about 1800 at the three year mark. It was thereafter that the casualty rate took a sharp upward swing. So far more journalists have been killed in Iraq than in the entire second world war let alone all of vietnam. The casualty rate is so far higher than at the same time in Vietnam. The cost in raw $$$ is higher and the cost in innocent civilians is higher. The cost in international prestige is higher in Iraq. So I’d say any suggestion that Iraq isn’t as bad is just plane ill informed.
Not that ill informed is a normal state of being for the wise and knowledgeable Scorp.
Actually though if the USA does no more than continue to flail about hopelessly as it is doing, the casualty figures may not go as high as fast as with Vietnam. On the other hand, if you were clever enough to attack Iran in the near future, AND you are a clever enough little Scorpy as to attack Iran soon aren’t you?, I think odds are pretty good that the casualty rate will exceed your wildest dreams. They will quickly outstrip Vietnam, as this conflict has done already in every respect.
Frog when Scorpy says “Democracy is Infectious” maybe he meant Democracy is Infected? It is diseased, dying on the tree. For that it is. With the exceptions of those who gallantly stand against the tyrants. REAL democracies where the will of the people is accurately expressed in their democratic choices. DEMOCRACIES, like Venezuala, Iran and Palestine. The only true democracies out there seem to be arising despite US influence, not as a result, Scorpy.
As Frog said it is good that Scorpy and Natalie have found each other. They both have everything the other desires. Someone to agree to all the programmed ditto. It would be really nice if Jay slides back online, and the very special Tiny1. That way they will be like a family. A little flock.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 26, 2006 at 6:00 AM Frog,
There is an article at the Economist site you may find interesting. (I did, but then it is one I tend to agree with. No, THEY are agreeing with ME! :-) But there are some comments by European Muslims which give first person opinions.
Sample:
“In the short run, at least, there seems little chance of Europeans and Americans finding a common language over Islam. As many non-Muslim Europeans see things, it is American foreign policy—in Iraq, above all—that has radicalised their Muslim compatriots. If European Muslims are anti-Western, they say, it is largely because of the Bush administration’s misdeeds.”
———————————& ————
Somebody please explain Federalism to Rabbit — he and I have a problem accepting each other’s “facts”.Posted by Rabbit on Jun 24, 2006 at 6:52 AM
“The name United States of America infers that it is a Union of States. As such the STAES are being recognised implicitly as independant entities in the primary unit, the UNION. As such it is the STATE which is entered and represented in that UNION. Not the individuals who make up that STATE, except in the abstract. It is the entity of the state which is part of a UNION of STATES.”
———————————& ————-
Note: Some of my teachers counted off for spelling errors. Let’s just skip it here, OK? (I will admit to using Spell Check a lot, though. Can’y break the habbit. Blame Miss McGuire — she was the toughest.)Will be back if I can. Hmmm, if I were a conspiratorial theorist, I might think Big Brother is trying to muzzle me.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 26, 2006 at 1:30 PM Sallyb,
I did a bit of checking on your Carol Fisher arrest story. Let’s be fair about it. There is more than enough yellow journalism already.
“...Carol Fisher in nearby Cleveland Heights, Ohio who is in jail because a cop saw her posting a “World Can’t Wait” (for the impeachment of G. W. Bush) on a light pole. She was told to take it down and before she could she was taken-down and cuffed by two burly policemen.”
Yes, she was arrested. Finally.
It is pretty apparent that she wanted to be arrested and after several tries the police accommodated her. OK, this is a perfectly acceptable, proven way to get media attention for a political point of view. But let’s not try to make the cops look like the Gestapo or the KGB — she broke the law and after a while they did what they are supposed to do.
You didn’t date your arrest so I’m not sure if this was the time in January or another offense. Do you have a reference for us?
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 26, 2006 at 3:06 PM Dear Whattheheck,
It’s absolutely amazing the spin that someone can put on a situtation like Carol Fisher’s to fit the profile of the spinster’s system. She “wanted” to be arrested! Scoff… scoff… cough…cough… Unbelievable, the lies one can perpetrate to excuse anything and anyone. You don’t know, you’re simply smearing for the sake smearing someone who dissents from your preferred view.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jun 26, 2006 at 4:30 PM Sorry Sally, your off base here. I don’t much give a damn if Bush is impeached. Quite frankly I think it is a waste of time and effort, but it’s her time not mine.
Go read something other than what you know you will agree with before calliing me a liar — we may disagree, but I do not lie. You and I are about the same age, and being a woman you would probably not understand, but if you called me a liar to my face I punch you out.
If she didn’t want to be arrested so her point would get coverage, why was she deliberately breaking the law? She either knew that she was, or she’s stupid. Take your choice — she’s your example.
Like I said, getting arrested to get your point heard is not new and if she chooses to do so, it’s OK by me. Just don’t blame the police for doing their job.
She got her day in court and a jury found her guilty. She can and will appeal.
We have enough problems to deal with as it is — don’t try to make it worse than reality.
References:
http://www.sunnews.com/news/2006/part1/0209/EFISHER.htm
http://www.sunnews.com/news/2006/part1/0504/EFISHER.htm
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 26, 2006 at 5:18 PM Addition to prior comment:
You and I are about the same age, and being a woman you would probably not understand, but if you called me a liar to my face I punch you out…...If you were a guy.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 26, 2006 at 6:12 PM WTH
are you really really sure you can’t type—- “<> =/ ” ” ?
ONE
TWOWTH
I CAN believe the two big cops are more wrong than right, there are some pretty nazi cops everywhere, even here in rural frogland.
JAIl for Godssake ?
Sounds to me that DISSENT in the US is being very strongly “discouraged “.You do NOT address sally’s cop “tired of all those anti-bush people’ nor the medications.
Why not ?
WTH
the Economist article—a link PLEASE ?
(read it regularly when I was in the money-market (money-laundering) industry—- occasionally enlightening good stuff )Disaffected Muslims in Europe ARE provided with good reason for their extremism by US and allied actions. Not a shadow of doubt there, and in Reaganesque language the USA is seen more and more as a Great Evil. Curiously, many of them do make a distinction between America, and your Administration. As I do.
Ever heard of General Boykin ? Guantanamo bay ? Bagram ?
In fact most european governments are NATO and WTO poodles to the US, economically just as entwined with foul north african govts such as Algeria, as is the US .
Our politicians being as dumb as yours, we could fall into a catastrophic situation in europe.
Posted by frog on Jun 26, 2006 at 9:12 PM OK whattheheck,
You punch me out, you get arrested and sued. You apparently wanted to get arrested and sued. Civilization didn’t get us very far. Barbarism prevails.
That is the same philosophy of those who steal elections, any which way you can get the results you want is OK. All that matters is that your candidate or party wins the election. Have a happy democracy.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jun 26, 2006 at 9:12 PM Sally
WTH is basically a good guy, am surprised that he descended to this “call me a liar” schoolyard level.
He is in denial about some things, while also seriously questioning Globalisation whose effects he sees in his family and friends.He detests the corruption in govt , as we do.
He should answer your points about the cop “tired of all this anti-bush stuff”, and the medications.
IF TRUE, they are unanswerable, . Police State stuff.
Posted by frog on Jun 26, 2006 at 9:20 PM Sally, WTH, Redhorse, Brian28, Anonanonanon,Robin,Gnade,Oregonrasulka,Lliberal
Even if some of you have been Republican voters, TODAY you are dangerous subversives.
Some of you are unaware that Ollie North and “the Friends” were (are defintely still ) in the coke-wholesaleing business, arms for coke for the freedum-fighting Contras, and now as a source of bigmoney. . This lack of awareness will now be sorted, when you find yourselves together in the University of Awareness Those who know will inform the newly-receptive others.
SCORPY believes you are just animals, so will find his little heart’s desire in being Kommandant. Natalie will be in charge of Re-education. Political Commissar. Tina1 will be an enthusiastic guard , ever-ready to blow away a “traitor”.
Wolf is halfway. Might be one, could be the other.
Posted by frog on Jun 26, 2006 at 10:08 PM WTH
You are losing the plot a bit old friend. This is sad because you have been doing so well up till now. Stay calm. America is what she is become. Take it slowly, count ten every time a new shock enters your awareness, and try to accomodate all facts, no matter how much you do or don’t like what they might imply. You can do it. Frog clearly thinks you have promise, and nobody can deny you are substantially better mentally equipped than Nat, Scorp, Jay or Tina. They are stuck with themselves but given a bit of time, and a bit more courage you can get past that cognitive barrier.
Sally didn’t actually refer to your opinion about the impeachment of Bush. Like the rest of us she is quite aware that you’re arguing the issue due to an inability to face up to the implication, that your freedoms are not all they’re cracked up to be.
Though the rabbit dares to answer on behalf of Sally, it seems from reading her posts that she is well equipped to understand far more than you give her credit for. What is to be questioned is your own sense of empathy or understanding. This rabbit would wager that a woman of courage and will like Sally gives all appearances of being, would furthermore probably knock you right back down onto your bony arse if you decided to take a poke at her with your manly fists.
Since you already question too much, you will be marked out for the camps or elimination like the rest of us. So you might as well stop sitting on the fence and accept the whole truth. At least look at it. Denial of half the crime of resistance is all the same. You are either with them or against them. They tell you this, so believe it and wake up. How often do you think people in Guantanamo have claimed they are not terrorists? Will their jailors listen? Of course not. Nor will they listen to your pleas that you only questioned a few things. Question nothing or question everything. That is the only real choice.
The only reasonable alternative is to pretend to believe ALL the bullshit again. Agree with the propaganda of the day, chant and scream at the six minute hate with the rest of them. But while we’ll give you shelter despite your half hearted commitment to truth, the thought police will not make an exception of you.
Frog
It seems that Scorpy may have gone and enlisted after all. You did him a favour by informing him of the new enlistment age of 42, and how he could probably get past it if he was yet a bit old. Good on the the Scorp, putting his ass where his mouth is. Actually Scorpy often does this, so the rabbit shouldn’t scoff.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 27, 2006 at 4:08 AM frog….your sometimes friend wolf has gotten himself into quite a jam…he is fond of certain racist terminologies and can’t seem to extricate his foot from his mouth , the stench from his foot and the halitosis have create an extremely noxious odor….Would it be too much to ask if you would help the poor lad…he is located on the Sticks & Stones….Dykes article….Please…help the lad , I fear my attempts have been unsuccessful…...thank you
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 27, 2006 at 4:49 AM Hi Redhorse
I nearly wrote of Wolf in my last post about how Wolf with his racial bigotry was more likely to be a guard actually.
Actually a couple of us know who Wolf is, he has been a regular internet contributor here and there and Racism is his main gig. He has a sense of humour though.
The shadow of a bat is seen. Hello Natalie who is about to post.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 27, 2006 at 5:28 AM We have a fighting chance for another future. This future could take human potential and human society to untold heights. An impossible dream? No. If we get way up on the mountaintop of history and look down on the march of humanity, the potential for such a world becomes clear. From this sweeping vantage point we can see that there is the basis for a world without classes, without oppressive social divisions. A communist world .......
......In this way, an ever-expanding network of conscious thinkers, dreamers, and fighters will gather around this newspaper, and we will be able to prepare—not only to take the streets against the outrages of today, but for a time when a real revolution is possible. This is a basic communist understanding of the role of a revolutionary newspaper, and through his works, method and approach, the Chairman of the Revolutionary Communist Party, Bob Avakian, has deepened and enriched this understanding of the role of a revolutionary newspaper and communists generally.
Revolution aims to be a tribune of the people—a living link between all that we are doing now, the work and struggle against the injustices of this system at any given point and our final goal of a communist world. In this sense, Revolution plays a role of not only keeping people’s “eyes on the prize” of a communist future, but also where we are at in the game.
Posted by Natalie on Jun 27, 2006 at 6:51 AM Hooray for Natalie!
Vive la Revolucion…Natty.
Communism on a small scale sounds like fun. No thanks though, it sounds too regimented to this hopper.
Anarcho Socialism is the way to go. Enough for everybody. No kings, rulers, presidents or politicians. No parades, hammers or sickles either unless people want parades, hammers and sickles for their own use. Most of all no flag humping.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 27, 2006 at 8:11 AM TWIMC -
The moonbattery is out in force. The moonbattery is like an artillery battery that shoots nonsense in place of ammunition.
Having shot their Democratic Party/leftist nonsense repeatedly, to no effect except their own gratification, the moonbattery is now reduced to shooting rehashed talking points, crude insults, and egotistical puffery.
Naiad, when she realized that she had nothing else to say, had the good grace to withdraw from the conversation. The leftists here keep yammering and burning electrons, not realizing they have nothing to say, but it is always thus.
This thread is dead.
Posted by scorp on Jun 27, 2006 at 8:34 AM anonanonanon
thanks for the lead—
The Employee Free Choice Act provides for civil monetary fines to deter other forms of illegal employer conduct. The Employee Free Choice Act provides for civil fines of up to $20,000 for violations of employees’ statutory right to join a union and bargain collectively that occur during organizing efforts or during the period when employees are seeking to negotiate a first contract. Such violations, for which there are often no effective remedies under current law, include the following:
• Threatening to close the workplace or move overseas if employees opt to form a union.
• Switching employees’ shifts, reducing their pay, demoting them, or giving them inferior work assignments to discourage unionization.
• Surveilling or spying on employees who support forming a union.
• Prohibiting employees from wearing union buttons.
• Illegally firing employees to discourage unionization.
Not that much different to life in the Communist bloc, eh chaps ?
Posted by frog on Jun 27, 2006 at 9:36 AM Frog,
Sorry about neglecting the link (No, I cannot do html — I’m lucky even to get on here any more.)
http://www.economist.com/world/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7081343
Islam, America and Europe—Look out, Europe, they say From The Economist print edition Jun 22nd 2006
Why so many Muslims find it easier to be American than to feel European
—————————-
As to Sallyb’s allegations:1. I see no point in commenting in detail on her account the behavior of the police — since she did not document her source, it is merely what someone (unknown) says the Carol said. There is no detail on what she said or did to the police. I am going by the local newspaper report of the case which was heard by a judge and jury. Anything else may have come from a blog foe all we know.
http://www.sunnews.com/news/2006/part1/0209/EFISHER.htm
http://www.sunnews.com/news/2006/part1/0504/EFISHER.htm2. Rabbit says, “Though the rabbit dares to answer on behalf of Sally, it seems from reading her posts that she is well equipped to understand far more than you give her credit for.”
This is where Rabbit and I always lose the discussion — he is willing to take as fact what he likes as here where he says, “....she is well equipped to understand far more than you give her credit for.” Based on what? Was she there? Did she see and hear first hand what went on?
Well, I did not either and therefore will give much more credence to the decision of the court. I also am aware that not all law officers are unbiased, but it always strikes me as ironic that the more liberal people are the more government involvement they seem to want — yet the more they distrust most government.
My wife was up for jury duty last year (murder trial) and was excused by the defense because when asked if she would tend to believe a defendants or a policeman’s testimony she answered, “The policeman.” I would also. (By the way he was convicted anyway.)
It is too bad we are so willing to accept the worst possible accusations at face value about each other (individuals and nations). All the bickering about WW1 and 2 — without Britain and Russia holding against Nazi Germany until the “isolationist” USA got mobilized Hitler could well have won. Without the US production capability of food and weapons supplied to all allies he would have eventually won.
If global terrorists are to be prevented from having their way we need to cooperate as we did then and stop all the pettiness.
We do not have a perfect system, but it beats anarchy. (Especially for any pacifists out there.) As for my response to the “liar” insult, with the name calling in so many recent exchanges I guess we shouldn’t complain to much about the decline of civility in politics — it looks like it has become universal.
from Sallyb…
“You punch me out, you get arrested and sued. You apparently wanted to get arrested and sued. Civilization didn’t get us very far. Barbarism prevails.”
What? You want to go to court? Since you ignore or, worse yet, scoff at the legal system regarding Carol Fisher, I figured it was going to be you and me just dogging it out.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 27, 2006 at 2:03 PM Frog,
I read the “Saddam the monster” article you referred to me.
It is not surprising there may have been last minute offers at a degree of cooperation. I didn’t see anything in the Times article which was any different than has already been the case.
• Still denying WMD (while claiming to Iran and the Shiia taht he did have it), • Saddam would maintain control, promises to allow inspections — all the same.
Are you familiar of the Boy Who Cried Wolf story? If all Saddam’s offers had fainally been sincere who would believe him?Since WW2 there have repeatedly been claims of Japanese offers of surrender prior to dropping the A-bomb. After thirty years some of the details were released and it looked believable. Then in the mid 1980s the total story was declassified and the offers turned out to be meaningless. We won’’t likely know in our lifetimes about this Iraq story.
I’m sure that our opposing views on the fighting in Iraq and our perceptions of Radical Islamic terrorism color both our views on such an article.
I must admit that my opinion of The New York Times is very low. Everything connected with them is suspect—from their financial writer, Tom Friedman, whose view of globalization (his books: The Lexus and the Olive Tree, and The World Is Flat — in pie in the sky IMO), to the recent exposing of efforts to track terrorist funds makes them out to be naive at best.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 27, 2006 at 4:03 PM Hello Scorpy, back from enlisting in the brave crusade are we? When are you off to the ME to fight terrorists?
Incredible how the Scorp just reduces all the foregoing to nonsense with one well thought out, ad-hominem and articulate post.
Moonbattery! We are but Moonbats rehashing something, that is the devastatingly obvious truth. How could we not have seen it dear fellow leftist Moonbats? How could we have been so foolish as to keep on gratifying ourselves and indulging in crude insults, when all along the Scorpy had our number. Sure as cheese on the end of Scorpy’s knees, we are but fleas on a badgers arse.
Actually Scorp, I thought the FACT that an election, nay two was stolen, according to the records was the point of the thread. True we are rehashing these stories though. That is only because we have yet to have the next stolen election to add to the list.
The point you are making is that You have refuted this. Of course, rabbit forgot what an exemplary pundit you are.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 27, 2006 at 5:25 PM I don’t know why anybody would believe anything some stupid U.S. court would conclude, when we could just go here for the answers.
Posted by Natalie on Jun 27, 2006 at 5:27 PM Finances of Terror
September 24, 2001
(A New York Times house editorial)Organizing the hijacking of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon took significant sums of money. The cost of these plots suggests that putting Osama bin Laden and other international terrorists out of business will require more than diplomatic coalitions and military action. Washington and its allies must also disable the financial networks used by terrorists.
The Bush administration is preparing new laws to help track terrorists through their money-laundering activity and is readying an executive order freezing the assets of known terrorists. Much more is needed, including stricter regulations, the recruitment of specialized investigators and greater cooperation with foreign banking authorities. There must also must be closer coordination among America’s law enforcement, national security and financial regulatory agencies.Osama bin Laden originally rose to prominence because his inherited fortune allowed him to bankroll Arab volunteers fighting Soviet forces in Afghanistan. Since then, he has acquired funds from a panoply of Islamic charities and illegal and legal businesses, including export-import and commodity trading firms, and is estimated to have as much as $300 million at his disposal.
Some of these businesses move funds through major commercial banks that lack the procedures to monitor such transactions properly. Locally, terrorists can utilize tiny unregulated storefront financial centers, including what are known as hawala banks, which people in South Asian immigrant communities in the United States and other Western countries use to transfer money abroad. Though some smaller financial transactions are likely to slip through undetected even after new rules are in place, much of the financing needed for major attacks could dry up.
Washington should revive international efforts begun during the Clinton administration to pressure countries with dangerously loose banking regulations to adopt and enforce stricter rules. These need to be accompanied by strong sanctions against doing business with financial institutions based in these nations. The Bush administration initially opposed such measures. But after the events of Sept. 11, it appears ready to embrace them.
The Treasury Department also needs new domestic legal weapons to crack down on money laundering by terrorists. The new laws should mandate the identification of all account owners, prohibit transactions with “shell banks” that have no physical premises and require closer monitoring of accounts coming from countries with lax banking laws. Prosecutors, meanwhile, should be able to freeze more easily the assets of suspected terrorists. The Senate Banking Committee plans to hold hearings this week on a bill providing for such measures. It should be approved and signed into law by President Bush.
New regulations requiring money service businesses like the hawala banks to register and imposing criminal penalties on those that do not are scheduled to come into force late next year. The effective date should be moved up to this fall, and rules should be strictly enforced the moment they take effect. If America is going to wage a new kind of war against terrorism, it must act on all fronts, including the financial one.
But that was then.
Posted by Natalie on Jun 27, 2006 at 5:30 PM WTH
Rabbit says, “Though the rabbit dares to answer on behalf of Sally, it seems from reading her posts that she is well equipped to understand far more than you give her credit for.”
This is where Rabbit and I always lose the discussion — he is willing to take as fact what he likes as here where he says, “....she is well equipped to understand far more than you give her credit for.” Based on what? Was she there? Did she see and hear first hand what went on?No WTH the rabbit gathers from the sensible and logical approach of Sally’s posts that she is an aware and alert person. WTH are you taking all the little pills the doc tells you to? You are doing quite a lot of this running off at the mouth stuff where you take things way out of context, and get all weird on us. I meant that in relation to what you said, ie: that Sally being a woman may have some difficulty understanding your caveman approach. Sally gives all indications of being able to com prehend your odd litle paradigm. Something she promptly demostrated with her subsequent post anyway.
It is now becoming obvious that any lack of understanding between you and any logical creature of reason is doomed, but due principally to your odd projections.
It is well your wife was excused from Jury duty. Like you she was clearly ill equipped to make a fair and intelligent decision.
I personally have seen more than enough to know for a fact that the average policeman is a liar. When it comes to standing in court the police lie through their teeth. That’s a fact and I don’t actually give a shit what you think about it. I know what I’m talking about and don’t just get my ideas from the editorials and a few extrapolated late night parties.
The main and most consistent component of organised crime is the police involvement. Rabbit has the credentials to tell you this for a fact. No stupid rubbish about Oz and American cops. Ours are straighter than yours, and everyone on the street knows that much. But ours are crooks, once they are OUT OF UNIFORM (Detectives) THEY ARE CROOKS TO THE MAN, OR WOMAN.
Of course you don’t believe that, you are not supposed to know that. Only those who have been caught up in their net know this, which is why we cannot be on jury duty. The thing is though that people like me still have family and friends, and they all know that the PIGS are crooks. So your wife and you, are actually among a deluded minority as a rule. I know, I’ve seen juries being selected. Most are less trusting of cops than you or your stupid wife.
Furthermore, if she hadn’t shown her gullible bias at the start then she might have gotten an education in the trustworthiness (or not) of cops. Most jurors are shocked at the low level of integrity of coppers even when the baddy is bad.
Of course it takes lots of gullible mom and pops like you to make all the corruption possible.
All you’ve done by stating your position on this is demostrate that you are a complete dittohead. People like me are always afraid that juries are going to be stacked with fucking brainless dickheads who think “policemen don’t lie”
You are a prime patsy!
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 27, 2006 at 5:45 PM WTH
japanese offers of surrender, i don’t know, but islands can be blockaded.A senior civil servant from rabbitland left Tom Friedman ‘s The World is Flat here, and I tried to read it . Worrying that he could read the whole thing; I did a third and gave up in disgust .
On last minute offers I do remember the taliban were prepared to give up OLB on production of evidence ?
Financial tracking has been going on for twenty years now, so the NYT rather late, nothing dramatic.
The gigantic majority of these transactions are corps avoiding taxes , drugs and other crime money, and a teeny weeeny minuscule bit of terra-money.
The haystack gets bigger, because the Banks like it that way. The Corps pay less taxes, they like that ! And the needle is tiny .Rabbit is right about cops’ evidence. A dozen IRA “TERRORISTS” were imprisoned in the UK, and released after a dozen years. Cost a lot in Compensation, but the truth did come out. Cops lied.
Still it made good headlines at the time, in that other terra thing, financed from America.
Rabbit
I notice no-one has taken up the Employee Free Choice Act thing, seems to me if you can’t have a Union you are already on a slippery slope .
Although electronic voting-machines are obviously a Dictatorship’s Delight, the old US Jim Crow disenfranchisement methods are back in force.
Posted by frog on Jun 28, 2006 at 2:11 AM Lagomorph (of all animals!) posts something on topic (of all things!):
I thought the FACT that an election, nay two was stolen, according to the records was the point of the thread.
Pretty weak, Lagomorph. Your previous effort was better:
In the meantime the rabbit would like to point out that the elections of 2000 and 2004, have been PROVEN to have been stolen, won by fraud alone,.
And, where might this proof be? Surely if there was proof, it would be evident. So, present your proof, and let us judge. Leftist partisan websites are not proof.
And, as you are a self-proclaimed anarchist, what possible interest is it to you concerning elections, and laws, and such? Shouldn’t you be out throwing bombs, or something?
It is an interesting fact that Gore challenged Bush in Florida 2000 on the basis of the accuracy of the count. Gore did not allege fraud, but Lagomorph does allege fraud, from his vantage point six years later and half a world away.
Gore mounted several challenges to the vote count, and could not find one that would give him the victory.
Following the election, recounts conducted by various United States news media organizations indicated that Bush would have won the most probable recount methods (including the one favored by Gore at the time of the Supreme Court decision) but that Gore might have won if other methods were adopted.
—Wikipedia
But it somehow seems unseemly to search around for a vote-counting method until one is found that produces the desired outcome, and then proclaim it to be “correct”, while previous attempts were “incorrect”.
Paper ballots and punch card ballots were at the heart of the Florida controversy, and electronic voting was the recommended corrective action so that there would be no more “hanging chads”, and such. So, in the 2004 election, the Dimocrats did not like the results (again), and protested (again). But if the Florida election was contested on the basis of the accuracy of the vote count, the Dimocrats and the Lagomorphs in 2004 contested on the basis of “fraud”, with no fraud demonstrated, much less proven, and using methods requested by Dimocrats to avoid further errors such as occurred in Florida.
The wonderful thing about democracy is that if the voters change their minds or feel that there were unacceptable irregularities, two or four years later they can throw the bums out, like we did Carter. So, if George Bush was elected improperly in 2000, he could be thrown out in 2004. We are still waiting.
And the wonderful thing about Dimocracy is that it gives the Dims and the Lags something to keep them occupied while we bring democracy to oppressed peoples, create the strongest economy the world has ever seen, and bring peace and prosperity to the world, one country at a time, if necessary.
At any rate, election fraud in the USA is the exclusive province of Dimocrats, from the deceased voters that show up on the voting rolls in the Dimocrat-controlled big city elections (New Orleans was worst, followed by LA, Detroit, Chicago, etc.), to LBJ’s fraudulent and felonious win in his first Senate race, to Joseph Kennedy’s purchase of the 1960 election for his son, Jack.
The Dims are not protesting the loss of an election, they are protesting because they can no longer steal elections.
Posted by scorp on Jun 28, 2006 at 3:08 AM Yeah scorp, proof indeed.
I’m still waiting for proof from Rabbit that the Twin Towers were downed by pre-planted explosives, that many of the hijackers are still alive, that Bin Laden has not claimed responsibility for 9/11 and that lung cancer rates in the United States have increased 600% just this year due to the worldwide spread of depleted uranium “vapors”.
As to the hidden history of the Democratic Party as it relates to race, and their projection in the case of voter fraud, I am certainly on your same page, as I previously argued in response to this article, similar in topic.
From that discussion I’d especially like to re-highlight this account, which reveals the fact that Democrats who know best don’t subscribe to the notion that the 2004 election was “stolen”:
Such cynicism exasperates some Democrats. Last year, Joe Andrew, who served as Bill Clinton’s chairman of the Democratic National Committee, blasted conspiracy theories that electronic voting machines, or DREs, would be used to steal votes and said “most liberals are just plain old-fashioned nuts” on the subject. He lamented that prominent Democrats “are rallying behind the anti-DRE bandwagon in a big election year because they think that this movement is good for Democrats.”
Nor has the truth stretching stopped with the election. Barbara Arnwine of The Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights claims photo ID laws “could disenfranchise 10% of the electorate.” In June, DNC Chairman Howard Dean issued a report on last year’s election in Ohio. He claimed it backed up charges of widespread “voter suppression.” But after a scholar involved in writing the report told journalists that wasn’t so, Mr. Dean had to return to the microphones to revise his remarks: “While we certainly couldn’t draw a proven conclusion that this was willful, it certainly has the appearance of impropriety.”
But William Anthony, Democratic chairman in Ohio’s capital of Columbus, scoffs at such suggestions. Mr. Anthony, who is also chair of the county elections board, said the high turnout and a ballot that involved more than 100 choices for some voters did create lines, but told the Columbus Dispatch he was offended by “a band of conspiracy theorists” alleging suppression. “I am a black man. Why would I sit there and disenfranchise voters in my own community?”
Joel, call your office.
Posted by Natalie on Jun 28, 2006 at 9:02 AM Rabbit,
“... the rabbit gathers from the sensible and logical approach of Sally’s posts that she is an aware and alert person.”
Of course, don’t bother questioning sources if you like what is said. I forgot how you decide what is fact, what is possible, what is probable and what is unlikely.
It has been a long time and I simply forgot that you have your mysterious super intuitive powers to rely upon. Most of us mere mortals and limited to reason, trying to deduce what sources are reliable and working at letting our personal biases and prejudices influence our judgment.
However, I find that I am now able to see that you are right at least in part…
——————-
Your comments“I personally have seen more than enough to know for a fact that the average policeman is a liar. When it comes to standing in court the police lie through their teeth. That’s a fact and I don’t actually give a shit what you think about it. I know what I’m talking about and don’t just get my ideas from the editorials and a few extrapolated late night parties.”
The main and most consistent component of organised crime is the police involvement. Rabbit has the credentials to tell you this for a fact.
Only those who have been caught up in their net know this, which is why we cannot be on jury duty. The thing is though that people like me still have family and friends, and they all know that the PIGS are crooks.
People like me are always afraid that juries are going to be statcked (sic) with fucking brainless dickheads who think “policemen don’t lie”
——————-
At first I thought you were paranoid regarding all forms of government and law enforcement, but then, paranoia is delusional and irrational which I have determined you are not. The simple fact is you are absolutely right.What you are missing is that the authorities are really aligned against you…and only you. The rest of the world doesn’t have that problem.
Sorry and sad for the Bunny. :-(
———————————& ——————————— 8212;————————Frog,
Tom Friedman lost a bundle by rushing in to invest in Russian bonds. So much for his financial skills. Tom does sell his books though.
“japanese offers of surrender, i don’t know, but islands can be blockaded.”
This would lead to a lengthy discussion and still be subject to individual interpretation, so I skip it. OK?“Financial tracking has been going on for twenty years now, so the NYT rather late, nothing dramatic.”
The claim is that it has been effective recently — I have no more info, but will only say it makes no sense to tell your opposition anything. I’m sure you are correct as to corporations being the big offenders and tax dodgers.
Regarding police: Certainly there have been gross mistakes and deliberate miscarriages of justice in all systems of government. DNA testing has freed many falsely accused and convicted individuals.
I firmly believe we need to differentiate between specifics and generalities. Rabbit tends to go to extremes like:
“...the average policeman is a liar.”“...in court the police lie through their teeth.”
“Most jurors are shocked at the low level of integrity of coppers even when the baddy is bad.”
“...people like me still have family and friends, and they all know that the PIGS are crooks.”
Above is purely based on his opinion — certainly not documented.
He also uses convoluted reasoning:
He indicates that my wife should not have given an honest reply in order to get on the jury and goes on to state that juries can be stacked against the accused. In effect if she had lied to get on and then did believe the officer’s testimony rather than the accused he thinks it would have turned out better.
Well, at least he never runs out of insults. Everyone is good at something.
(Sometimes I have been able to get 8 to 10 thousand word replies by slipping in a truly outrageous comment which I know will set him off.)
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 28, 2006 at 1:37 PM CORRECTION:
Most of us mere mortals and limited to reason, trying to deduce what sources are reliable and working at (NOT) letting our personal biases and prejudices influence our judgment.ADDITION:
Frog:
At least as in the example you noted, the truth finally won out and they were released. While of small comfort to the accused, at least it shows an attempt at justice by admission of error and injustice. Not all systems would do that.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 28, 2006 at 1:57 PM As a former programmer for one of these election companies, It is extremely easy to do anything you want to an election. The DRE machines ARE NOT reliable. Many times you can touch the screen in a certain area and it will record a vote for another candidate. It scares me to see our government pushing so hard to implement these wonderful machines. If they only knew…
Posted by LILLITH on Jun 28, 2006 at 3:19 PM Lilith -
Any computer can be programmed; that is what computers are for. Any computer can be programmed to give any result: Venezuela’s last election with DRE had 59% of the votes for Chavez, while exit polls had Chavez losing 40-60. Peanut Carter pronounced the Venezuela vote “fraud free” with no analysis of the vote or the results. A large number of Venezuelan vote machines had exactly the same (low) number of votes against Chavez.
Fortunately, we have bipartisan election committees throughout the USA to oversee our elections, which means that they oversee the programming of the machines. Dimocrats designed the punch card ballots that caused so much trouble in Florida, and someone, somewhere (historically, a Dimocrat) will try to scam DREs, as they have scammed voter roles, dead voters, ballot box stuffing, photo IDs, whatever. But we keep refining the system, and the American voting system is undoubtedly the most accurate and the most honest in the world, in spite of the leftist Dims that can’t believe they lost again.
We seem to be stuck in some sort of seemingly interminable conflict until the Dims realize that most Americans really do not like elite leftists. Then the elite leftists will have to find a new philosophy. Hasten the day.
Posted by scorp on Jun 28, 2006 at 6:19 PM WTH
You occasionally do not “run out of insults” either , though I admit my friend rabbit is very creative. .I have no documents to prove what Police friends at university told me, but in the olden days before drugs and Terra, they often used to give false evidence.
That was with villains well known as such, and accepted as part of their symbiotic game. They would even drink in the same late-night clubs, and occasionally a villain would be sent down for a few years.
That was 50miles outside london. Inside, the police were far more corrupt, and have only slowly been relatively cleaned up over 40 years.
Drugs LAWS have made this more difficult, as the money is huge and tempting, and most drug squads and other agencies everywhere, right around the world including the US of course, have the same problem.
Terrorism does not provide much source of income to bent cops (I can imagine some…) but achieving “success’ provides kudos, takes off the pressure from the hierarchy. .
The same old methods are used to get convictions, which look good on the TV.
The high-profile UK TERRORIST cases I refered to must surely make you revise the opinion that “cops don’t lie” ?
Your response that the victims eventual exoneration is proof of the goodness of the system does not change the fact that the cops lied.
.
Posted by frog on Jun 28, 2006 at 8:17 PM WTH
I’ve seen Alberto Gonzalez a few times on TV, each time amazed that such a small-time lawyer could get so high . .The Miami Al Qaeda Terrorist Cell is the latest, funniest, and saddest.
Might the DOJ have a little something to do with ensuring that the voting system is fair, or does some other body have responsibility ?
Impossible that that guy could safeguard anything important, so now tell me, seriously , who does ?
PS Maybe no DSL yet,? But be patient and see it for yourself.
Posted by frog on Jun 28, 2006 at 10:54 PM WTH…Here are two examples that might clear up this debate….if you would be so interested as to google these two names Leonard Peltier….Elmer Gerard Pratt…Peltier is still in prison , Clinton could have pardoned him but didn’t…Pratt served 27 years for a murder, that he did not commit , he was 400 miles away from the crime seen , attending a Black Panther Party meeting , his attorney was none other than the late Johnny Cochran..William Kunstler worked the Peltier case ,also you can check out the name Russell Means and the AIM ( Amerikan Indian Movement ).
Book title…Agents Of Repression ” The FBI’s Secret Wars Against the Black Panther Party and the Amerikan Indian Movement ” South End Press , Boston , Mass.; authors : Ward Churchill and Jim Vander Hill
There was also a case, recently in the Distrist ( Washington , D.C. ). Protesters had gathered ( with a permit ) at of all places ” Freedom Square ” ( Pennsylvania Ave & 14th street )to march against the IMF/ World Bank annual summit , these marchers were peaceful , among them was a former military official ( retire ) , by order of the police chief Charles ” Dickhead ” Ramsey the protesters were first told they would not be arrested…then they were told too disperse…then before they could move…they were systematically corralled and arrested…It happened so fast that bystanders ( tourists ) were also arrested.
All this info came into the light of day in court ( law suits )...Fat Face Ramsey lied until the end…denying that he had given the order too arrest ...Police play too win…Truth and Justice are always a distant second…hey ...and if money and sex are involved , T & J are not even considered relavent…ya know whatta mean…....Ramsey by the way is a Afrikan Amerikan…although the way he puckers up to moneied interests in the city ,you’d think he was a blowfish….
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 28, 2006 at 11:59 PM Frog,
Let’s assume everything you and Rabbit say is true, what do you suggest?
Obviously there would not be any reason to go to the police (since they are all crooks). No government is trustworthy. (For that matter whoever I might go to and tell them I heard it from a rabbit and a frog will book me a padded cell;-)
If this is the case here, in Britain,France and Australia —where is there to escape from all this massive corruption? You paint a truly dismal picture.
Maybe I should just go in to talk with Alberto and then blow us both up.
Wait a minute — I have a full beard — I can hide in a cell at Gitmo.
————————-
It’s been a long day.I’m going for a large Scotch.
Cheers
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 29, 2006 at 12:04 AM frog ..... Alberto is a disgrace to his heritage and class, grew up poor…very poor in of all places Texas…not much different than a lot of these minority class climbers…will do whatever it takes to please the MONEY.
What a waste of talent…..go figure $$.??
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 29, 2006 at 12:19 AM WTH…Speaking of scotch…you didn’t like my jokes about Kennedy…funny..huh…real funny….huh..huh…huh..???
It is not about being dismal it’s about understanding and evolving…no one is saying life has too be perfect…we all know life is a contact sport…but just like sports…you want to see a fair game…right…..correct-a-mundo….Ted’s coming over , you better water down that scotch or better , hide it…
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 29, 2006 at 12:25 AM Natalie the scentific analysis of steel from the columns has shown the traces of explosives, Thermate. Apart from all the scentific analysis of photo evidence and fall rates etc, the proof has now been made by laboratory analysis of the steel. As for waiting for proof Natty the only thing you need to change your mind, is a new program from your masters. Proof, like facts evidence, reason or logic have no bearing on your ideas.
Photographic “proof” for anyone who can see.
Scientific analysis proves incendiaries used.
Jones says that, “using advanced techniques we’re finding out what’s in these samples - we’re finding iron, sulphur, potassium and manganese - these are characteristic of a variation of thermite which is used to cut through steel very rapidly, it’s called thermate.”
Scientific evidence 911 story is a lie.Not that I wish to get into a discussion about things for which Natalie alludes, for such things have already seen her being burned at the stake totally on other threads. She lost then as she is losing now, due to an inability to think, only to parrot the official line. The above “proof” is but a fraction of the massive body of evidence which is enough to convince all rational people who consider it, and it has all been laboriously laid at the feet of the most singularly repulsive death lover I’ve ever known on the web or anywhere. Natalie, The Vampire Shill Bat.
So a glance at the Thermate PROOF which is now available, is enough to show Natty Lies.
It is good that a Liar is teamed up with a denier though, we get the best of both crafts in the Scorpy Nat team.
Scorpy
And, where might this proof be? Surely if there was proof, it would be evident. So, present your proof, and let us judge. Leftist partisan websites are not proof.
The proof of election fraud is partly alluded to in the article leading this thread you sad little troll. Have you forgotten to read the article in your panting desire to defend the GOP?
Here is a substantial collection of references to the stolen elections.
[url=“http://bluebeard.bu.edu/peaceworks/Evidence_of_Fraud.html”]< t;u>Contents:</u>Statistical Anomalies
General Corruption and Partisan Election Officials
Voter Suppression, Racism, Intimidation and Fraud [/url]There are now over 38,000 incidents of voting violations reported by the private Election Incident Reporting System, while 57,000 complaints were delivered to the House Judiciary Committee. If there were 57,000 incidents, then there was a minimum of one incident per 2250 voters. Consider what would happen if once in 2250 times a cash machine failed to deliver money and you had to hire an attorney to dispute the money you received. The bank and the manufacturer would go bankrupt. In contrast, the Indian election system routinely has 370 million votes with no serious problems, while Australia, which routinely has a 95% turnout in federal elections, also has no serious problems. Both countries have a transparent public record of returns in elections dating back seven to ten years.
Now there is a rather enormous amount of proof in those links, proof that the US elections were stolen by the Bushling, little Scorpy. It really is an accepted fact of life for 95% of the world’s population, it is cute that some minds can be so small as to still hold the faith though.
“And, as you are a self-proclaimed anarchist, what possible interest is it to you concerning elections, and laws, and such? Shouldn’t you be out throwing bombs, or something?Rabbit cannot always be out throwing bombs, little Scorpy, so many hours in the day, so few bombs. Sometimes he has to attempt to educate silly fellows like you, dear Scorpy.
Seriously though, as usual, you have but a cartoonish understanding of things. Anarcho-Socialism, or indeed Anarchism even in it’s wider interpretation has nothing to do with throwing bombs or violence. You could of course use the net to look it up. But why bother when ignorance is such a long standing habit for you after all. It is basically a higher form of government. One suited to an advanced and creative species like humans aspire sometimes to be. One based on individual responsibility and self worth. A system of equity which eliminates all central authority what is more. A Scorpy who visited such an hypothetical Anarchist society would be thinking he had died and gone to heaven. Unfortunately this is what may have to happen before any group of people big enough to be called a nation can experience the bliss and comfort of such a system. We can only hope and pray I guess. Bombs will help in an indirect way, but no small bombs of rabbit’s could hope to match the many large and impressive bombs which are currently being thrown around by Scorpy’s masters. These are bringing the day for an Anarchist society closer all the time. Watch and see Rabbit’s little trolly wolly.
Scorpy the exit polls in the US had Bush losing big time and the difference was so enormous in some cases as to be statistically impossible so best you don’t start on exit polls. Your crap about Venezuala was just that CRAP. There was never any accusations of fraud in the Venezualan elections, or any of the numerous rfeferenda since, by any credible ineternational body. That obviously doesn’t include the GOP or its agents. The fact that international observers oversaw the Venezualan elections tends to give great credence to this. The very same bodies were refused the right to oversee the US elections, so it is a very goofy thing you say. You are a goofball Scorpy a veritable goofball. But a lovely one and Rabbit is glad for you all the same.
You cannot even begin to compare the rising peoples democracy of Venezuala with the totally discredited autocracy under which you labour in ignorance.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2006 at 6:31 AM WTH you made such a brave effort at wit in your first post, I almost feel like letting you keep your sense of victory.
No intuition needed WTH just simple reading of the facts posted by Sally, which being against the comfort zone of the average dittohead, shows she has courage. The mere fact of recognising an unpleasant truth is enough to tell something about a person, there is nothing mystical to it. Just as the format and content of your posts tell us you are a deluded dittohead in denial, Sally’s say she is an alert, attentive and brave person. It has nothing to do with whether or not anyone agrees with me or not. That is understandably the way people like you judge everything, but you are extrapolating to suggest independent thinkers do the same.
I do understand how someone who gropes about in a state of being unsure whether or not he or indeed anyone really exists, whether anything can really be proven, finds things like logic and reason mystical. You do still believe that nothing can be proven and that the web is all imaginary stuff being invented by people don’t you WTH?
It is odd you would criticise anyone for mystical powers since you imagined into being that Sally somehow mentioned anything about being for or against Bush’s impeachment. You also imagine into being various things which exist only in the realms of your mysterious mind.
As for the authorities being aligned against the rabbit? What are you talking about? I speak of lying cops and how everyone with experience, including security personel, court officers, judges and lawyers as well as the underground, all KNOW cops are inherently untrustworthy. They lack both the moral courage to tell the truth when it doesn’t suit them, and the intellect even to separet their own presumtions from facts. In short people who enter the Police force are predisposed to dishonesty. To rigidity behind which their own lack of moral strength can relax.
You further invent strawmen in your claims I suggested your wife should not have given an honest answer. You are proving who has a problem with reality I’d say old boy. I indicated she should not have been on a jury if the fairness of proceedings were to be considered. Not least because anyone who would automatically believe a cop, might be inclined to forget presumption of innocence given the choice of aquitting on that presumtion alone and committing on the basis of a cop’s word.
You are dreaming, to say it is only my opinion. WTH you are not gewting any better at these debates over time. Maybe you need to think a bit more before you say things. Maybe otherwise you should assume Rabbit does think before saying things most of the time. Polls here in Oz certainly have the police very low on the trustworthiness scale. They are trusted more only than politicians. I shall see if I can find the data. You see we have had a few Royal Commissions which have blown a great deal of police corruption into the open, and even they only scratched the surface of course. Rabbit has quite abit of inside knowledge of police corruption in his state of Western Australia and on the basis of that knowledge can say he knows they are crooks. That isn’t paranoia, Whatthefuck, that is simply knowing what is. Most of the corruption and lies have nothing even to do with the rabbit, but people talk you see, and rabbit’s listen too.
I can see some others have given examples of police corruption, lying police. You will answer that is just a few bad eggs. You will be engaging in the usual denial then. Those are only the examples we have given, but there are many more. We could collect an enormous body of examples of police corruption from all over the world, and even then we would have only the tip of the iceberg, for MOST CRIMES of corruption, indeed most crimes, go undetected.
The anecdotal evidence is consistent, here there and everywhere, cops are gererally only as honest as they need to be. Many are far more dishonest than they need to be. There is probably almost no honest drug squad police in the world. I have known some uniformed police, in my time and they are the first to admit that detectives are crooks.
It is OK for you and your wife to be gullible and naive, but the evidence of past corruption is plentiful, and even a ninny like you should be able to guess there might be a lot then which is not uncovered. Since you are also being faced with people with actual worldly experience, including anecdotes of others they have known, you would be advised to revise your own position at least a bit. Or else go on being a denialist, who ignores any and all evidence his reality is impaired. I couldn’t care less, it is you who is living and will die, in ignorance. I’d rather know the truth and die unhappy than to die happy only to feel like a fuckwit the moment I awake in a wider reality.
Your litle rant about paranoia was sad under the circumstances. No need to be sad for Bunny, you should save your sympathy for yourself.
Conversely, if you are SAD it has nothing to do with the rabbit, you are just SAD.
...................^^.....................
Indeed WTH it isn’t so much that Rabbit is good at insults as that you are such an excellent subject in this regard.
WTH, with the new editing function the spelling errors with which you’ve previously taken such joy in pointing out, prove to be poor points of reference. The spelling error you referenced is now fixed. Rendering your joyous sic into irony.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2006 at 6:51 AM Those who must labour under the label of Dittohead, should not take offence at the word. We know you cannot help yourselves, for ditto is your motto and your creed. That is what we are here for. We who have magaged to find out the truth as much as possible, and base our ideas, evolving though they may be, upon such truth, are freely offerring our time and wisdom for your edification.
You must remember that since you are ditoheads, we already know most of what you believe, and from lonmg experience we can know why you believe these things. Just like anything which is recorded, we can examine the ditto ourselves, and see what it is. Much of it was once part of our world view, and all of what you know we know too, but the difference is we don’t stop at the small collection of convenient truths but prefer to have the whole story, thus allowing us to make up our own minds. This means that we have varying opinions actually and you are not able to pre-empt what any of us are saying. Either we said it or we did not, your attempts to presume our views are always failing woefully and this is why. While we seem to possess magical powers of mind reading to some of you. That’s because your ideas are not your own, they are merely prepackaged ditto. The same one size fits all ditto which the sheeple consume daily.
Mean while we are able to predict your ideas without fail, we know what you belief even before you tell us, for that is what being a dittohead is all about. There is just one program for the dittoheads, and it is easy to keep track of.
For this reason it would be best if you didn’t waste time repeating the ditto, as if it is in some way likely to be edifying to people who already know the script of your ditto better than you.
In short, you are here to learn, not to teach, so stop acting as if any of you flock of fools has anything to teach. If we wanted ditto we could go to the MSM official ditto feeding teats, or the Right Wing circle jerks where the ditto is recycled wioth the addition of lots of “Hoo boys”, and “you bet!“s and “right on"s.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2006 at 7:39 AM Hi Lapin,
So true that much of what the dittos believe was once part of our worldview, too. But we’ve learned…WTH
Did you see the articles here on Norm Stamper, the cop who learned ?He belongs to the LEAPgroup.
So not all cops is bad ! Like the rest of us, some get over early indoctrination, realise their errors, and attempt to help others to do the same.
Posted by frog on Jun 29, 2006 at 8:05 AM Hi Frog
More to Scorpy’s twitsong about Venezuala. Hugo Chavez was elected by a convincing margin in elections which passed the test of honesty, in an electoral turnout which was historical, in direct contrast to the Bushling.
Venezualan Election checked out. Now if the Scorpy wants to talk about exit polls we shall be happy to do so. However if we are to take the Venezualan exit polls seriously then we must be just as accepting of the relevance of the US election exit polls. Somehow I doubt the Scorpy will want to do that.
Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter led a team of international observers from The Carter Center during the Aug. 15 presidential recall referendum in Venezuela, when citizens voted on the recall of President Hugo Chavez. The Center previously observed the reparos—or signature verification correction periods; the signature collection; and the signature verification process.
On Aug. 27, Venezuelan electoral authorities confirmed President Hugo Chavez’s victory in the referendum. Though there were accusations of fraud by the opposition, the final official results totaled 59.25 percent for Chavez, 40.74 percent against. The Carter Center participated in an audit of the votes (see final report above) and concluded the results were accurate.
In the case of the US elections the accusations of fraud have been almost universal. International observers, everyone except GOP and supporters in the USA itself and by so many millions more “amateur observers” like the Frog and the Rabbit.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2006 at 8:20 AM ZEN FOR THOSE WHO TAKE LIFE TOO SERIOUSLY
1. Save The Whales. Collect the Whole Set.2. A Day Without Sunshine is Like, Night.
3. On The Other Hand, You Have Different Fingers..
4. I Just Got Lost In Thought. It Wasn’t Familiar Territory.5. 42.7% Of All Statistics Are Made Up On The Spot.
6. Light Travels Faster Than Sound, Which Is Why Some People Appear Bright Until You Hear Them Speak.
7. I Feel Like I’m Diagonally Parked In A Parallel Universe.
8. Honk If You Love Peace And Quiet.
9. Remember, Half The People You Know Are Below Average.
10. He Who Laughs Last, Thinks Slowest.
11. Depression Is Merely Anger Without Enthusiasm.
12. The Early Bird May Get The Worm, But The Second Mouse Gets The
Cheese.13. I Drive Way Too Fast To Worry About Cholesterol.
14. Support Bacteria. They’re The Only Culture Some People Have.
15. Monday Is An Awful Way To Spend 1/7 Of Your Week.
16. A Clear Conscience Is Usually The Sign Of A Bad Memory.
17. Change Is Inevitable, Except From Vending Machines.
18. Get A New Car For Your Spouse. It’ll Be A Great Trade!
19. Plan To Be Spontaneous Tomorrow.
20. Always Try To Be Modest, And Be Proud Of It!
21. If You Think Nobody Cares, Try Missing A Couple Of Payments.
22. How Many Of You Believe In Psychokinesis? Raise My Hand.
23 . OK,.... So What’s The Speed Of Dark?
24. How Do You Tell When You’re Out Of Invisible Ink?
25. If Everything Seems To Be Going Well, You Have Obviously Overlooked Something.
26. When Everything Is Coming Your Way, You’re In The Wrong Lane.
27. Hard Work May Pay Off In The Future. Laziness Pays Off Now.
28. Everyone Has A Photographic Memory. Some Just Do Not Have Film.
29. If Barbie Is So Popular, Why Do You Have To Buy Her Friends?
30. How Much Deeper Would The Ocean Be Without Sponges?
31. Eagles May Soar, But Weasels Do Not Get Sucked Into Jet Engines. (some consolation eh Scorpy?)
32. What Happens If You Get Scared Half To Death Twice?
33. I Used To Have An Open Mind But My Brains Kept Falling Out.
34. I Couldn’t Repair Your Brakes, So I Made Your Horn Louder.
35. Why Do Psychics Have To Ask You For Your Name?
36. Inside Every Older Person Is A Younger Person Wondering What Happened.
37. Just Remember - If The World Did Not Suck, We Would All Fall Off.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2006 at 10:12 AM Rabbit,
Here is PROOF that Chavez is a thug and Carter is a useful idiot:
Col. Chávez assumed power in 1999. One need not go into great detail about the deterioration of Venezuelan life since then to understand why a recall referendum has been years in the making. Every aspect of existence has worsened. The only people who are not profoundly affected are those at the highest levels of the government party. Poverty, for instance, is at an all-time high and the country is afflicted, for the first time ever recorded, with malnutrition on a massive scale. This unprecedented suffering has occurred during the greatest oil boom in the nation’s history (Venezuela has oil reserves on the scale of those in Iraq). Col. Chávez and his “revolution” have not only led a ferocious assault on civil liberties, but have also needlessly alienated one of Venezuela’s closest allies, the U.S.
The recall referendum process has been obstructed and delayed at every turn. Dozens of independent polls predicted defeat for Col. Chávez, who did everything—including granting citizenship to half a million illegal aliens in a crude vote-buying scheme and “migrating” existing voters away from their local election office—to fix the results in his favor. One opposition leader was moved to a voting center in a city seven hours away. Another man, Miguel Romero, had for years voted in his neighborhood school in a Caracas suburb. But this time the Electoral Council computer indicated that he was to vote at the Venezuelan Embassy in Stockholm. Thousands of others, like me, were wiped from the voting rolls. Ironically, in the runup to the vote, the embassy in Stockholm, like Venezuelan diplomatic posts around the world, inexplicably ran out of passports. Many Venezuelan expatriates were thus prevented from returning to their country to vote.
In the early hours of Monday, the Electoral Council’s president (who had imposed a gag order on all exit polls until a full audit of the vote had been completed) issued a statement declaring that the computer votes had been tallied and that the government had won the referendum with 58% of the vote. The announcement came in a vacuum, without an audit, with no verification whatsoever from the international observers, and over the indignant protest of two of the five council members, who publicly questioned the result’s transparency.
The opposition, understandably shocked and demoralized, insisted on a hand-count of all computer voting receipts as the only way of settling the dramatic disparity between exit polls that showed 58% to 41% in favor of the recall and the announced result of 58% to 41% in favor of retaining Col. Chávez. Later that morning the most important observer, former President Jimmy Carter, declared that he was shown the computer tally by government supporters and that everything seemed in order. Mr. Carter then left Venezuela, and the opposition groups that had put their faith in him to facilitate a peaceful resolution to the crisis. Mr. Carter, who was vociferous and insistent about patience, transparency and hand-tallies during the Florida recount, left Venezuela to attend Mrs. Carter’s birthday party.
Really cool!!! Now I can rest easy knowing that the mystery behind the fall of the towers is solved. Thanks to a picture of a piece of steel that was cut, certainly not during the salvage operation, of course. Since there’s no proof as to when, where, or why it was cut, we can assume whatever we want!!! Cool!!!And the ever reliable Prof. Jones. It looks like he gave up trying to get his paper in that Marxist economics journal. Still waiting for it to be peer-reviewed by someone other than his fellow “professors of paranoia”
Posted by Natalie on Jun 29, 2006 at 10:59 AM Redhorse,
You’ve lost me on this one — “...Speaking of scotch…you didn’t like my jokes about Kennedy…funny..huh…real funny….huh..huh…huh..???”
——————
“It is not about being dismal it’s about understanding and evolving…no one is saying life has too be perfect…we all know life is a contact sport…but just like sports…you want to see a fair game…right…..correct-a-mundo….”Yes, I would prefer being fair. That is my only real objection to anything said by Sallyb, Frog or Rabbit. Too many broad and sweeping generalities. Too quick to accept bad news if it is against someone disliked.
With the Carol Fisher story we didn’t hear the evidence only individuals’ opinions.
Regarding cops — sure there are bad ones. Power corrupts some, but not all. Some of my relatives have been in law enforcement — my mother’s father was a chief of police. They were tough, but as honest as a person could be.
As for Bush, people jump to the conclusion that I like the guy and trust him if I am only looking for an honest, and unprejudiced evaluation of news. I don’t much media noise and don’t trust blogs at all.
——————————-Frog,
“I’ve seen Alberto Gonzalez a few times on TV, each time amazed that such a small-time lawyer could get so high.”
Bush’s choice of cabinet secretaries and others is mostly for political gain IMO. It’s the guys who chose Bush who bother me the most.
Bush and Kerry couldn’t plan a decent picnic for the two of them on their own. If they invited Clinton he could do it just fine, but while Georgie and Johnnie were chowing down, Billy would take the dessert and use it to lure a little girl off into the woods.
It’s been a long time since I could vote for someone instead of against.
————-Gotta run. Catchya later.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 29, 2006 at 1:30 PM Natty your silly RW hit piece is pure GOP fantasy, When the US backed coup was attempted the people’s power is what took back the preisdency for their man, Chavez. Also the proof is in the pudding sweet girl. Chavez is actually doing something humane and useful for his people and the world, unlike the little hitlerite in the White house. He has also survived numerous referenda, I wonder how the Bushling would fare in a fair referendum? With 25% support I’d say he’d be fucked wouldn’t you Natty?
The simple fact is Natty, Chavez won, and despite the massive resources being poured into illegaly and imorally trying to affect the outcome by your brutish country, your guys lost. A win for people power and a loss for corporate rapists. His win was disputed by your mob of losers but no where near as convincingly as the disputations of Bush’s win. Which are ongoing and gaining momentum.
The photo of the steel column is actually pretty damned conclusive if anyone cares to know, but you don’t because you are a shill, with a vested interest in the lie being supported. Too bad for you that the MSM is even begginning to takle notice of the 911 questions.
Despite your attacks since Jones stepped forward, he has become a serious thorn in the side of you liars.Pretending that the photo above is the only evidence of thermite or thermate as we now know, is disingenuous. I referenced about the chemical analysis and the video footage also gives every appearance of Thermite explosions. That’s three out of three. The molten steel of course confirms the same thing, which is to say four major items of evidence pointing to precisely what explosive was used.
Natalie it is another thread, (911) you lost convicingly at every point even before the Chemical analysis so do be a sensible child and drop it. You will end up losing your new love, Scorpy, for even he has shown he isn’t stupid enough to try and argue so much science and witness and video and more science evidence. Scorpy has abandoned you before when 911 came up I recall. Besides which you know nothing of science Natalie as we have proven before. You actually think the laws of gravity are suspended by presidential decree. You also support the poisoning of the US troops and of the Iraqi countryside with Depleted Uranium. Is it necessary for you always to bring all your moral debauchery out into the open everytime you pop up like a cancerous growth on some thread?
Naty you are prepared to ignore any amount of evidence of fact, and you are ready to deny them upon the basis of pure fantastical speculation? The following just illustrates your painful dishonesty and denial.
piece of steel that was cut, certainly not during the salvage operation, of course.
Now Natalie many moons ago we read together about how the steel columns were all miraculously of such short length that none had even to be cut. There was NO cutting going on as you suggest. Lies and Shilling, if I wasn’t used to you I would be disgusted. As it is, I’m just grimly amused by your gross dishonesty.
Seeing the raging attacks and blatant dishonesty in reporting which has dogged Jones since stepping forward, makes it clear to understand why people are reluctant to do the same, but I’ve been arguing this issue with you for longer than Jones has appeared. Since the days you claimed no Scholars, no engineers, No physicists supported the alternative and now major theory about why the buildings fell. Bit by bit these people and many more besides ahve stepped forward, more and more, increasingly determined supporters have joined and Natalie it is obvious to anyone that it is only a mater of time. It is all the more pleasant watching you squirm in paranoid hysteria, as that day approaches. Every pol shows greater support and less trust for the official lie. The truth has always been obvious to anyone who looked. It cannot be debunked, not least because there is absolutely no credible evidence of the official lie.
You had no real evidence for the big lie from the start and we had tons. Since then our evidence has increased enormously and you Natalie have even less than you started with. For example you no longer have any evdience of Osama Bin Laden being involved. The FBI have said so. So the whole claims of his involvement within hours, minutes even of the attack, was a smoking gun all by itself. There never was any reason to assume his involvement. So why did =certain people do so, on cue immediately following the attacks?
Nobody has ever claimed the one million dollars reward by proving that the burning fuel could cause a Steel skyscraper to collapse. One hour, that is all a little fire took according to you to bring down the South tower, barely an hour of a cold fire. I don’t wish to go there, you’ve lost but as always you are the original undead, losing an argument for you is just astate of mind. If you don’t admit iot then you still think you are in the game. You are not in the game, unless we are referring to your profession.
The tide is turning bit by bit, and it will never reverse. Eventually the weight of the truth is going to crash the walls of lies and deceit of which you are but one parasitic little piece.
It is only a matter of time, and the joy will be in watching you liars get morally discarded by even your masters as they scramble to cover their own fat arses.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2006 at 1:44 PM EVERYBODY KNOWS CHAVEZ STEALS INCUBATORS, AND THROWS THE BABES ON THE FLOOR
So why do you keep fighting against the TRUTH, Mister Rabbit ?
Posted by frog on Jun 29, 2006 at 2:02 PM WTH
Too quick to accept bad news if it is against someone disliked.
That’s rubbish old fella. Rabbit and others too have been circumspect about many things, it is you who cannot ever acept anything which disagrees with your preconcieved delusions. It is so comical watching the elengths to which you are prepared to distort your self in order to deny some news which strikes discord in your delusions.
An example might be the Jesse Helms fake video. People like Rabbit and most of the anti-war crowd failed to be fooled by what was probably a Neocon effort to head off the real stories of atrocities which were emerging. Meanwhile people like you are still desperately fighting a rear guard action against accepting the increasingly documented atrocities as fact. How’s that effort going? Still believing in the few bad apples theory are we shiny mind?
We’ve refused to accept the spurious claims of OBL involvement in 911, and now our position has been vindicated by the FBI. So who is the gullible ones eh my little marshmallow?Have you noticed there are now another couple of investigations going on over Marines murdering civilians? Don’t tell us some crap about at least they are being investigated. These cases have only come to light despite the military efforts to coverup. They have been forced into the light, like many other instances before them could not be.
If it is you who has any clues WTH, how come we are always right about everything? The first reports of various atrocities come in and WTH denies they can be true, lies he says. The reports become mor clear and WTH claims it is all jsut abeat up, and just afew bad apples and anyway its not much really. The reports become unavoidable and mainstream and WTH is reduced to justifying things he was previously denying. The pattern has gone on and on with you WTH.
You’ve not managed ever to put a sound argument based on factual references. Relying on half baked selective cartoon like about historical episodes is nothing to be proud of. WTH you have completely gotten the bull by the wrong horn. We don’t believ bad things about people because we dislike them, we dislike them because of the bad things.
There is nothing of a factual nature which anybody has falsely attributed to Bush. You are making excuses for him and excuses for your increasingly failed democracy. A year ago you would have screamed blue murder if any of us had said the US government was spying on its citizens across the board. You would have shat yourself in indignation. Well what about that idea now bright eyes?
You have anation which has opted out of internatioanl treaties on human rights, rsigned from the Geneva conventions or broken them all, take your pick. You ahve anation with the highest imprisonment rate of any country in the world. You have one of the few countries which practices torture, incarceration without trial of even its own citizens. Dude you are one seriously fucked up little monkey if you think things are still going rosy.
Rabbit knows your problem. It always surfaces about the point you realise you cannot deny some unpalateable truth any longer. You come out straight and admit your fears, your terror. You ask helplessly “but what can I do about it?”
You poor poor fellow, it is then when the rabbit feels most sorry for you, and he does. I can recognise the terror of facing the truth. I have read quite abit about Cognitive Dissonance and it is scertainly a serious mental disorder. I don’t know what the solution for you is WTH. But shutting your eyes and hoping it will go away won’t help unless you kick the bucket soon. The truth about your disastrous course in history is not going to wait for your funeral I fear. It is right here knocking on your door. Or more to the point it is only historical moments away from kicking in your door.
By the way, I know what you think of Bush, I know you quite well dear WTH, it is easier for me being not so tied up with mental defensiveness. Having no great phobias or fears makes the vision so much clearer. I know as said exactly what your problem is and it is the inability to face up to the fact that your country is not anything like what you have ben brought up to believe. You rightly recognise the Dems are a pack of ratbags and somehow feel the party you once trusted will regain its moral soul. It won’t.
You make excuses for Bush because to face the truth which is that he is insane, stupid as dirt, dishonest as the day is long and ultimately incompetant, is to admit that your country is led by such a fake.
I don’t know what the answer for you is WTH, but I don’t think denial is going to cut it for much longer. Even your ranting about blogs isn’t going to save you from contact with the truth, the internet is not only full of information, it is more and more affetcing the MSM. I doubt the MSM can protect you from the awful truths for much longer either.
Don’t you know a bit about numbers? Have you noticed the dollar getting kind of suicidal at the top of that great slippery slope yet?
It’s coming WTH the crash is coming, and you could have avoided it if you hadn’t all been so cowardly and lazy and stupid as to ignore the truth that crooks have stolen your country.
WTH isn’t your depiction of the presidential trio a bit simplistic? Is the only thing you can think about Clinto his sexual proclivity? Doesn’t it occur to you that his actions may not have been more than par for the course for many Presidents? Are you familiar with the substantial amount of information which shows Bush senior to be a Pedophile? A supporter of Snuff movies no less? Have you heard the rumors, but rather substantial ones nonetheless about the younger Bush and instances of rape comitted by him both before and since becoming POTUS?
Not that I’m saying I’m sure about the Bushling, the story tellers in the Bushlings case have a habit of getting murdered so witnesses are not lasting long enough to be tested. As for the Old Bush, of him there is no doubt. The stories are way too detailed and from too many different sources. There is more than enough smoke to accept there is a fire of considerable proprtion under it. Follow the Gannon story to its roots and offshoots, and you’ll gain a new slant on old man Bush. Or don’t, I know how unpleasant information gets you flustered poor WTH. You really should switch the net off. If you keep coming on here, no matter how hard you try to avoid actually learning anythinmg, sooner or later you are going to trip over that story which you just cannot deny anymore and which is going to bring your life of denial to an abrupt halt.
The rabbit’s fear is that the experience may shock you so badly that you might completely dissapear up your own arsehole.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2006 at 2:22 PM Frog
EVERYBODY KNOWS CHAVEZ STEALS INCUBATORS, AND THROWS THE BABES ON THE FLOOR
So why do you keep fighting against the TRUTH, Mister Rabbit ?
Ah Frog that is the question. It is due to the rabbit’s hatred of the freedoms and way of life of these Americans, his desire to see Muslims rule the world and because the rabbit is clearly some sort of communist.
Actually I’m sure Chavez is planning to invade the USA with all those AK’s he so wisely bought recently. He is such an evil avaricious dictator after all. Obviously as deadly a threat as those Gitmo detainess who waged assymetrical warfare against the USA recently by hanging themselves. Vicious terrorist acts, threatening the USA freedom, what a devilish enemy the brave and moral Americans are up against. How do they do it and stay so strong and brave?
No doubt Chavez is using some sort of mind control over the Venezualans which is why his support is increasing, it is now more than 70%. Perhaps he could loan the mind control machine to the Bushling? He could do with some sort of a boost. It seems cashing in their pet terrorist in Iraq only garnered a few snickers and no real boost in the polls. What to do now? Surely an atck on Iran will do it, well let’s give it a whirl says Rove, what have we got to lose? I think Chavez’s mind control by which he maintains the high popularity would be cheaper than more wars. What if another war doesn’t win Bush supporters back? Then not only will Bush be the most unpopular president in history, America will have even more mortal enemies. The mind control machine of Chavez must be a better option.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2006 at 2:32 PM Scientific proof that Lagomorph is a retarded moron.
http://rense.com/general70/pphe.htm
1) Anyone who cites Rense does so for the purpose of dishonesty and fraud.
2) With a quarryman MOS, I worked extensively with explosives, demolitions, and thermite. Thermite on a column leaves a lumpy, bumpy, irregular mass with a large pool of melted metal at the bottom.
3) The picture cited above shows a clean cut, and on the left face of the cut on the column, the diagonal striations are obviously the result of a welder’s torch. The waste metal from the cut of the torch is called “slag”, and is evident in the photo. Did I mention that I worked summers as a welder’s helper while going to college for my engineering degree? I have probably chipped about a ton and a half of slag in my time.
4) The dimensions and layout of the support (tube was the term used by the designers) in the Rense photo appear consistent with the perimeter columns that surrounded WTC 1 and 2. There should be other columns to the right and left on 1016 mm centers (~ 40” centers), but these other supports could have been destroyed in the collapse or could have already been removed. It does appear that the firemen are near ground level and, since the building collapsed straight down, considerable material appears to have been removed before the photo. The Rense site gives a 2006 date, but this is surely a posting date. The date of the photo would be helpful in analyzing this information.
http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~astaneh/1-Publications/Astaneh-9ASEC-WTC Paper 2003.pdf
5) In the column we are looking at on the Rense site, the outside of the building is beyond the firemen. To cut this column with thermite, a retaining system of ceramic or fire brick (we often put thermite in plain red ceramic flower pots to burn a hole down into something) plus the thermite, plus the ignitions system, would have to be mounted inside and outside the building at each column. One might think that dozens or hundreds of protruding thermite devices on the inside and outside of the WTC might have attracted attention, unless one was using Logomorph logic.
Lagomorph’s post is quite typical of him. Lagomorph has limited knowledge and limited practical experience, but this does not prevent him from making wild and unsupportable assertions about things of which he is absolutely ignorant. Except for the entertainment value, Lagomorph’s posts would have no use at all.
Posted by scorp on Jun 30, 2006 at 1:50 AM Scorpy, Rense is not a source as such, you poor dim troll. They mostly report or link to articles from various other mostly MSM media sources. The strawman twerps like you and Natalie try to atack in assuming you can discredit Rense is farcical, such a rense doesn’t exist. In fact you silly little man, a number of Mainstream newspapers these days go direct to Rense.com as a shortcut to the news of the day. Attacking Rense therefore as a source is the surest way to demonstrate your own complete ignorance. Both Rense and Prison Planet have a wider readership than any of the MSM newspapers these days you see. While you’ve been ignorantly scoffing they have eclipsed the MSM news in reliability and coverage.
Actually Scorpy anyone who says Rense is innacurate or false, is proven ignorant of what Rense in fact is. You will find 90% of news stories in Rense in our local Newspaper (Fairfax group, MSM), within a wekk of them being on rense. You made a faux par there silly lad.
Scorpy your fantasies about having some knowledge of welding from having used a slag chipping hammer, are funny.
By the way the stuff which oozes out around a thermite reaction is called slag too.
I went out into my workshop and made Thermite, from raw aluminium, and some rusty iron. I added sulphur in the correct ratio and did some experiments with the stuff. Having never used Thermate before it was interesting, it certainly did make the reaction more hot.
Scorpy
Do you know Blackpowder can still give a reasonable deflagration without Sulphur? Of course the sulphur is the way to catalyse the reaction. Sulphur can be added to many highly exothemric redox reactions, thus seriously enhancing the rate of deflagration and usually the sensitivity. An oxidiser like Pottassium Chlorate can be used with Aluminium powder to create a wicked report due to massively fast deflagration, the addition of a few percent sulphur makes the mix *extremely* sensitive and gives the speed of reaction enough of a boost that it is to all intents and purposes a true explosion. Does the Scorpy know such things off the top of his big empty head? Would you be able to do such a thing off the top of your head little Scorpy Worpy? That was easy for Rabbit and such knowledge does tend to make me feel a touch more competant that someone who once used a chipping hammer.
Rabbit happens to be a competent and experienced metal worker and welder. More importantly I am an explosives “expert” more or less. As an experienced pyrotechnic chemist and shotfirer and professional pyrotechnician, I think I’m sufficiently well placed to confirm the photos resemble Thermite cutting, and the presence of the chemical residues in the testing which you are conveniently ignoring, is virtually proof positive. Besides which even someone with a bit of engineering knowhow or a modicum of experience in demolitions cannot seriously debate the evidence of explosives. The fact that you do, is quite open proof you are full of shit, a complete fabricating poser.
The slag you refer to would not be caked up in such quantities on a beam cut with Oxy acetylene, this isn’t an an arc welding slag you dumb ape. Scorpy, my silly empty headed little troll, you have been chipping slag on Arc welding jobs maybe. But with Oxy cuting, the slag drops away easily as you work, some molten edges would be visible, but so would striations along the top surface. If one cut such a column with Oxy, you silly troll, there would be no need to cut on such an angle, but with explosives, and where a controlled fall was needed, the angle would be necessary.
Obviously if it was cut with Oxy, then the normal procedure would have entailed supporting the weight of the top, say with a crane, thence no need to angle cut. This isn’t the same as felling a tree in the forest litle Scorpy.
Your point number 5 above is absolute rubbish, where the hell did you come up with that? Scorpy thermite or indeed thermate, can be contained in various ways and for a utting job like this it was probably
The thing which shows you are just avoiding the truth and spreading the bullshit, is obvious the way you choose, just like the other Shill, Natty, only to refer to the one reference, a single photo which though indicative admittedly isn’t much on it’s own. You deliberately choose this one because it is from Rense, though it’s actually only copied by rense, because the handbook of cringing denialists tells you that it is somehow possible to discredit rense on its own merit. That is only because you turkeys have never done enough research to know rense is not a primary source most of the time, just a nexus.
Meanwhile you ignore the other two references, one of which involves chemical analysis and the other vaild scientific analysis by some Dutchmen. You also ignore as always the many witnesses, etc.
The next thing will be you try to discredit the poeple, like Steven Jones, creating lunatic conspiracy theories of your own to explain why so many former administration officials, scientists, engineers, clergymen and a growing MAJORITY of people would lie about such things.
You are siting in a small sinking liferaft, morons. No facts or evidence is ever going to come to save you sinking. Everything which has arisen since 911 has further discreditied the government’s lies. Everything!
The following are the reasons why controlled demolition of the WTCs is the only possible explanation. Don’t forget that to say anything else is possible is only speculation, for the only way the following combination has ever occurred historically is due to controlled demolition.
Radial symmetry: The Towers came straight down, blowing debris symmetrically in all directions.
*Rapid descent: The Towers came down just slightly slower than the rate of free-fall in a vacuum.
*Demolition waves: The Towers were consumed by synchronized rows of confluent explosions.
*Demolition squibs: The Towers exhibited high-velocity gas ejections well below the descending rubble.
*Pulverization: The Towers’ non-metallic components, such as their concrete floors, were pulverized into fine dust.
*Totality: The Towers were destroyed totally, their steel skeletons shredded into short pieces, most less than 30 feet long.
*Molten metal: A stream of what might be liquid metal was videotaped flowing out of the corner of WTC2 moments before collapse, and eyewitnesses observed and reported pools of molten metal in all three rubble piles.
Poor old Shills you are losing ground all the time. Now Wikipedia which has been historically biased on behalf of officialdom on such issues, has updated its info about 911. Including mention of the Thermate charges.
The amount of detail on the alternative theories of 911is coagulating around the main important details. I guess they can feel the tide changing too. Of course the FBI admitting it has NO EVIDENCE of Bin Laden’s involvement has shocked a lot of media, as that info is seeping out, and the details of Jones’ work along with the Scholars for 911 Truth are all doing their bit.
How must it feel to be in a losing war? As you watch your lies slip away into space from whence they ame, as you realise we can see what an idiot you’ve been. As you choke on the humiliation of being shown for a dunce, know that Rabbit always knew the time would come. When your lies fall broken and the truth shines through the cracks in the boards you’ve erected around your deluded little lives.
The tide is slowly rising, the numbers of those who know and accept the truth is growing exponentially. That is to be seen in the polls. Do you think this is a two way game? Like a football game maybe you think you’ll somehow reverse the score? That isn’t how i works, ninnies. Eventually the truth becomes unavoidable and then the game is over, no second round, the perpetrators who YOU ARE COVERING FOR, will go to Prison and to the gallows. The tide of rising truth doesn’t reverse, if it is still growing now it will not reverse and that is just so obvious and excellent to behold.
Lastly Scorpy how do the references which confirm that I’ve made none of this up at all, amount in your twsisted mind to wild and unsupportable assertions about things of which he is absolutely ignorant.? It would seem that by ignoring the fact of the references in saying this, you are mking a patently false accusation.
Meanwhile if I said you have nothing at all by way of science, or credible evidence which gives even a strong possibility your lies stand up to the light of day, I would be telling a truth which is as patently obvious. Do you guys have anything except hollow attacks on personalities who speak out? Rather than fighting to debunk the rising tide, don’t you think its time either the government released all the video footage they are hiding from the public? Maybe it would be a good idea to do some actual science which proved the spurious claims which are being made, however unconvincingly by paid for science whore? Claims of theory are well and god, when are they going to do some tests which prove that a steel framed building can collpase from a short not very hot fire? When will we get to see how it is so easy to happen that it can happen to three buildings in one day? For a skyscraper to fall once due to a short cool fire, into its own footprint is a first in history, and nobody ever would have believed it possible on 9/10-2001. BUT on 9/11-2001, three buildings in a row fell down into their own footprints, just exactly the same as controlled demolitions normally aspire to. Three in a row, and one had only had a fire for about an hour.
It’s no use saying we saw it happen on 911, because we are convinced we saw a series of controlled demolitions. Numerous witnesses in and outside the buildings heard explosions before and after the planes hit. There isn’t any way you can claim those dozens of people from police, firemen, to people inside and outside the buildings, are all lying, or imagining it. You can claim it of course, but you’ll just be giving the game away that you don’t want to know the truth, but to cover it up.
After all it is a FACT that everyone who claims Osama Bin Laden did it, is lying, so if that’s a lie, what isn’t?
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 30, 2006 at 3:40 AM All this conveniently distracts from the point of this article and that is that the presidential elections in 2000 and 2004, were stolen. Not that it matters in some ways because the Kerry would have been an elitist scumbag too, and no doubt as much in thrall to the corporate interests which are raping and ruining the USA.
It’s your shitty country Scorpy, you just gobble down all the filth, lies and delusions which the masters feed you full of. Just keep swallowing and don’t stop, you and Nat can swallow together, and regurgitate your dittohead propaganda for each other’s pleasure. It is your shitty dying country and you get the final rewards for your “diligence”, not me. Suck eggs is all I can say. You have both sacrificed any credibility or respect you could have around here, with your empty headed hysterical cheerleading of everything which stinks, without anything but your own convictions to back anything up, and the simultaneous avoidance of anything substantial.
Put simply, you are both liars. Unlike WTH who is merely deluded and confused, and Tina who is a fruitcake, you are both nothing but prevaricating shills. Natty is a Shill, maybe you are just an exceptionally arrogant moron. Most of us refuse to believe anyone as dumb as you Scorpy could actually be a Shill.
This is still off topic, but directly relates to the vacuous clims of Jones’ work lacking scholarly review.
All in good time little denialists. Here is some responses to Prof Steven Jone’s work, read and enjoy. They even include some of “your sort of experts” they are particularly interesting in that they are universally sleazy and cringing.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 30, 2006 at 4:11 AM WTH- Silly, silly Sally here saying, if I understood you, you closed your doors on the Carol Fisher dialogue. First you said I did not cite credible news reports. Then before I got back to doing the requested newspaper report, you supplied it yourself. So because I thought I understood you to say that you could not, or would not accept anything that did not come from major news sources; no blogs, no partisan articles, etc. Door slammed.
Thursday you said about the Carol Fisher story that we, “didn’t hear the evidence, only opinions.” I can tell you that evidence was suppressed but I’m guessing your response is that this is based on “opinion based on others’ opinions.” I can state that eople who wanted to testify in this trial were denied that opportunity and the nature of that fact or opinion is to pass it on through other means, a purely human nature response of rumor. Slam! There’s that door again.
This close-the-door stance gave me a choice- I could argue to no avail or place my attention to other matters. Now, I think (my opinion) I can be a fairly reasonable person but I prefer a modicum of reasonableness with whomever I communication. Otherwise nothing fruitful comes from it, either for me or that person. I’m a gentle enough spirit (my cussed, biased opinion again!) that I don’t care for rancor for rancor’s sake.
Although I was done with the topic, today, you really confused me because you finished by saying that you are “looking for an honest, and unprejudiced evaluation of news. I don’t much media noise and don’t trust blogs at all.” I agree that a great deal of the TV and radio media is noise made for getting noticed and I simply have to assume that you are accepting print, a la newspapers and maybe some magazines, (although that is unclear) otherwise your earlier comment about accepting only credible news reports is confusing.When I read the newspaper, I read editorials, op-ed pieces, and sometimes articles that I wonder if they shouldn’t be considered op-ed pieces. Now facts are fairly easy to discern or prove, unless you are reading reports about WMD in Iraq. Yet, I teach my students that opinions can be just as easy to determine. If the writer uses words that express what the writer thinks, feels, or believes, they are expressing an opinion. They argue that it is really not quite as easy as it sounds, especially when stating what someone likes or dislikes, or determining if something is good or bad. So we work hard and practice determining fact and opinion in the things we read.
Question: So WTH, how do you determine which media and which news is credible, believable news? Is it purely a political choice?
Posted by sallyb36 on Jun 30, 2006 at 5:19 AM DON’T PANIC, LAGOMORPH. PANIC DOES NOT BECOME YOU. WHEN YOU PANIC, PEOPLE NO LONGER BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE AN IDIOT, THEY KNOW YOU ARE AN IDIOT. YOU CAN’T APPEAR CAPABLE AND KNOWLEDGEABLE WHILE SCREAMING INANITIES AND INSANITIES AT THE TOP OF YOUR VOICE.
Now, are you calmed down?
The thing which shows you are just avoiding the truth and spreading the bullshit, is obvious the way you choose, just like the other Shill, Natty, only to refer to the one reference, a single photo which though indicative admittedly isn’t much on it’s own. You deliberately choose this one because it is from Rense, though it’s actually only copied by rense, because the handbook of cringing denialists tells you that it is somehow possible to discredit rense on its own merit. (My emphasis.)
I did not choose this photo, you did, and it does not show what you said it shows. Those diagonal marks on the left of the center beam were made by a cutting torch. I have used thermite and I have used explosive charges to cut structural members. Neither thermite nor cutting charges leave marks like a cutting torch. You may be able to bullshit some people on this site, but quit trying to bullshit me.
And you have not explained how several dozens or several hundreds of thermite units, or cutting charges, or whatever, could have been mounted on external columns visible from the street AND from inside the building without any one noticing. And if there were thermite charges or explosive charges on the external columns, they would have given off a great deal of light and smoke, or blast, but the many, many photos taken that day did not show anything like that.
The same is true of any molten metal in the basement. Pouring steel gives off a lot of light, and there is no sign in thousands of photos that there was molten metal cascading down through the buildings. Emergency personnel inside the buildings were in radio contact with the outside up to the last minute, and tons of molten metal were NOT reported as falling on them.
Continue ...
Posted by scorp on Jun 30, 2006 at 7:08 AM Back some months ago you were pushing the Jones Report. In five minutes it was obvious that Jonesy was too silly for words:
Jones had several videos of commercial controlled demolitions by explosive charges. In every single controlled demolition using explosives, the explosives went off creating blast effects and great clouds of dust, AFTER WHICH the building(s) started to come down.
That is not what happened to any of the WTC buildings. After the WTC buildings started to move, THEN great clouds of dust were generated AT THE POINT where the concrete floors were fracturing, but not lower down. Look at the videos again. Are you going to believe me, or your lying eyes?
The “squibs” reported by Jones and shown in videos are interesting, but they are not explosions. There is no blast effect, and no great cloud of dust as was seen in the commercial demolitions. If I had to guess, they were air conditioning duct panels blowing out from overpressure due to fire or collapse of the building. If you don’t like that explanation, make up your own, but don’t try to pass them off as explosive demolitions.
Of the many reports on WTC that I have read, the most plausible is from the Journal of Materials, cited below. It addresses the heat problem and several other theories. JOM concludes that the problem was with the floor joists attached between the external columns (as shown in the Rense Photo) and the core columns at each level. The joists were held in place by metal clips. The fires from the burning fuel caused some of the metal joists to expand causing tension stress to adjacent cooler joists at the point where the clip joined the column; the shorter, cooler, joists were pulled away from the columns, causing instability as more joists failed and the columns were no longer cross-braced. In fact, police helicopters were reporting that the outer walls were starting to flex and buckle several minutes before the towers fell.
Look closely at the Rense photo again: Just to the right of the center fireman’s head is an external “tube” column from which the clip has been sheared off. The very top of the larger internal column lying at a diagonal behind the tube column also shows where a clip was sheared off.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
I know that a conspiracy theorist such as yourself likes to have situations that are complicated and involve lots of guilty parties, but that is your problem. You are as gullible as a goose, Lagomorph.
Posted by scorp on Jun 30, 2006 at 7:09 AM Rabbit, you’re right about one thing. The 9/11 “Truth” movement is starting to emerge into the glare of the public spotlight. Unfortunately for them, the intense scrutiny that results often serves to intensely expose inferior or false hypotheses. Ask Dan Rather about that.
Maybe you’ve heard it already, but recently, Jim Fetzer, Steven Jones’ buddy from the “scholars” site, was on “Hannity and Colmes”, a Fox News Channel right/left debate show here in evil America. (is that enough commas?) The segment was short and Fetzer really didn’t have much of a chance to “expose” himself. However, he was subsequently on the Alan Colmes Fox radio show, where he had much more time to reveal many more of his lets just say interesting ideas to Colmes (the liberal side) and his audience. (download or stream 17mb mp3) Be aware that the appearance was hyped on the “scholar’s” site where they urged their people to call in.
Tomorrow, he’s supposed to be on the Laura Ingraham radio show, which has a fairly large audience, I think. I assume he’ll be posting the audio of that as well so we can all listen from the “scholars” site.
scorp, these guys are fascinating, really. Why do they promote all this nonsense? I can only guess that it’s some combination of hating Bush and/or the war in Iraq, being a poor judge of what constitutes reliable information/journalism, (stuff from Rense) actually making money off it, being in denial about the true nature of Islamic fanaticism and clinging to a fantasy that would be just so delicious for them if only it were true.
It’s like some kind of political pornography.
Oh look! It’s Professor Jones. Let’s go get his autograph! Tell me about the thermite…errr….thermate Mr. Jones! mmmm…..thermate.
Oh look! It’s Jenna Jameson. Let’s go get her autograph! Maybe she’ll ask me to go up to her hotel room with her.
Reality bites.
Posted by Natalie on Jun 30, 2006 at 8:02 AM My most difficult problem is trying to avoid leaning to much to my own biases. My religious background (a broad range of Christian thought and doctrine — now I’m agnostic), family upbringing and traditions, military experience, schooling, and social structure.
I try (as much as possible) to put myself into the situation. Example: What would I do if I were president and I were expecting another attack to be imminent? What would I do if I believed torturing one individual would save thousands of other people? (One of the most bothersome signing statements.)
Honesty is probably the most important trait I value in others and aspire to. My mother told me when quite young, “When you think you did something you should not have, if you tell Dad or me we will not punish you.”
She was a teacher also(as you indicated you are). Beginning at age 17 she taught eight grades in a country school. My father was one who would put money in an expired parking meter because he had used more time than he paid for. An uncle who was a government auditor was an early whistle blower and testified regarding fraud during the construction of the NORAD system. (It earned him threats and a dead end career.) My great uncle was in charge of breaking up the meat trust in Chicago as an official under Teddy Roosevelt.There was an interesting exchange on BookChannel TV regarding the book, “Whatever Happened to Honor?” By James Bowman.
http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.16655,filter.all/pub_detail.aspIt is quite lengthy and covers a wide range including the current Middle Eastern mess and our different perceptions of honor.
To me one of the biggest problems today is a disdain for what was a basic possession to the founders of our nation. They pledged, “...our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.”
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 30, 2006 at 4:17 PM Sallyb,
(I have about had it with this site. It is difficult for me to get back to the discussions [on a Mac]. When I tried to send this message, it said it could not take my comments right then. Then it took the second half and skipped this first part. It took several tries and reboots to get back, so this is a bit disjointed.)
——————————— ;—
re: Carol Fisher — I read the two accounts in their local paper. She was convicted and will no doubt appeal, but there was nothing I can add to that. Can you? Do you know her? Are you acquaiited with this in some way other than the internet?
Your Question: So WTH, how do you determine which media and which news is credible, believable news? Is it purely a political choice?
———————————& —No, I consider myself to be an independent. I have never voted a straight ticket and in my state, where primaries require asking for a specific party ballot, I go for one which lists a candidate I’d prefer. (Some “switch” to vote against a person who may threaten to beat their party’s candidate.)
I try to get as much news as close to the original source as possible. I tape and watch a lot of the congressional hearings and other reports on C-SPAN.
When that is not available I watch for unsupported accusations and hyperbole, noting the author and publication, station or website as a future guide to possible slanting.
An example: This week at a discussion group someone passed out copies of an article from the Guardian Weekly, “Another King called George” by Martin Kettle. My immediate comment was, “Come on, this sounds extremely suspect.”
In the second paragraph he states something which he got from another author, Charlie Savage, of the Boston, Globe. (Red Flag: An report of a report — too many human filters.)
It said, “President Bush has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws that have been enacted by Congress since he took office. At the heart of Bush’s strategy is the claim that the president has the power to set aside any statue that conflicts with his own interpretation of the constitution.
Remarkably, this systematic reach for power has occurred not in secret but in public. Go to the White House website and the evidence is there in black and white. ...Bush asserts that his power as the nation’s commander in chief entitles him to overrule or ignore bills sent to him by Congress for his signature. Behind this claim is a doctrine of the “unitary executive”...”
———————————& ——Since Wed. I have done a bit of reading on this. (It looks doubtful Kettle himself went to the WH site.)
The whole piece is written as though this is a recently concocted Bush scheme:• Bush has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws…
• Bush’s strategy is the claim that the president has the power to set aside any statue…
• this systematic reach for power…
• Bush asserts…
The article did say other presidents have used signing statements.
I had not heard of this provision, but I found it goes back to the early days of our government. That he has signed NOT 750 such statements, but rather just over 100 (110?) which is in line with those by Reagan, Bush 41, and Clinton. He did have 750 disputed issues within the total, but there is no tally of total issues listed for previous presidents for comparison.
While I don’t like some of his exceptions, it is unfair to publish an article such as this one.
——————————— ;———-
P.S. Since the recent Supreme Court decision it looks as though Bush’s signing statement on torture will no longer be a problem.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 30, 2006 at 6:30 PM WTH:
George Bush is commander and chief of our military. That does not make him commander and chief of you or me as civilians, nor of the laws congress passes that affect “civilians,” so, when he does this signing business he is, in my opinion, telling the congress he will do as he pleases. He knows better than all! Why bother with a congress who is expected to sit in the corner like a docile pet on a leash?
I know that other presidents have done this signing before, Eisenhower, Reagan, Clinton… but not to this extreme measure of G.W. Over 750? Come on, I would have to be really naive to think that this is not an overreach toward that “unitary executive” position that Cheney has wanted for the presidency since his Reagan years. The writer you quoted says Bush has done this quietly by alluding to the lack of announcement or reporting. Bush does not do the signing until after the official public signing, backslapping and the passing out of the proffered pens is over, and everyone has gone home.No, this White House saves the real public fanfare for those staged op-ed moments; for example, when the president does something “important” like, accompanying the leader from Japan to Graceland. But, woe is us, the signing has finally become public enough for the public to be informed. (Most of the public does not inform itself of too much unless buildings and planes are falling from the skies or the rivers flood in their back yards.) Now, even some members of the emasculated lap-dog congress say it needs scrutiny
WTH, Here is the definition Wikidpedia gives for “Commander in Chief-”
A Commander-in-Chief is the commander of a nation’s military forces or significant element of those forces. In the latter case, the force element may be defined as those forces within a particular region or those forces which are associated by function. As a practical term it refers to the military competencies which reside in a nation-state’s executive, head of state or government. Oftentimes a given country’s Commander-in-Chief need not be or have been a commissioned officer or even a veteran, and it is by this legal statute that civilian control of the military is realized in states where it is constitutionally required.The term “commander-in-chief” was first used by King Charles I of England in 1639. (Now if you can’t accept Wikipedia as a source, you’re free to look do your own search. Just promise you’ll stay away from conservative mantras.)
Sallyb
P. S. I watch C-span too but I temper that with the realization that this is Show-and-Tell-Time. Sometimes it’s a see-saw competition, like Thursday’s arguments in the Senate. (One kindergarten teacher calls it “Bring and Brag.” I always liked that better.)
Posted by sallyb36 on Jun 30, 2006 at 11:20 PM WTH::::: About Carol Fisher- Yes, I have met and talked with Carol Fisher, approximately 10 days before her last court appearance. It was a poetry reading in support of Carol. Carol answered anyone’s questions. She’s a quiet-mannered, soft-spoken person. She believes she had done no ultimate wrong. Her greatest “wrong” is that of preferring peace over war.
She explained to me that the policeman told her to take the sign down and that she had no intention of disobeying that instruction, but before she could fulfill his direction, he took her down and with the “aid” of his partner, cuffed her, called her some ugly names in an epitaph that included the cops disgust about anti-Bush “haters.” She was taken to an emergency room for treatment of scrapes and bruises to her extremeties and I think her face. The ER attendant was not allowed to testify at the trial, along with passers by who watched the incident.Since then, I have attended a meeting in which Carol’s situation was discussed and I learned from people who visited with Carol in jail that she had not been given her prescriptions in the two weeks she had been incarcerated. (Carol is a cancer survivor and has a deteriorating jawbone condition.)
I have a daughter, who works in mental health. She called the county commissioners after we learned that Carol had not been receiving her meds, inquire about the status of the alleged withholding of the meds. She was quite professional and simply cautioned the person she discussed it with that it could cause them some great problems if this person were to become seriously ill or die on their watch. The person she discussed it with seemed concerned and appreciative and said she would look into it immediately.
Now, WTH, that’s as close as I have gotten to this situation and you can believe what all (or truthfully, what little) was printed in the press or not. I don’t care because you don’t care. You not caring will bring no good to the matter. My not caring what you think still brings no good but it doesn’t stop me from at least trying to care and trying to bring some good out of chaos.
Go ahead and condemn this bleeding-heart liberal for caring if you like. It will only cause me to dig in my heels, understanding that someone has to care about truth and fairness. I cannot sit by being an isolated self-evolving self. I believe that’s the kind of thinking and behavior that has contributed to the social and political ills throughout history for centuries.
Oh yeah. You’re right. I’m setting myself up for someone to take advantage. That’s when my bleeding heart liberal Christian teaching clicks in. Turn the other cheek. Please note I had not brought up religion. That’s because there isn’t a fundamentalist bone in my body. It’s all Sermon on the Mount, a personal guide from him to me and thee. I quite simply think I should live a decent example, as well as I humanly can, and not stuff it down someone’s throat. It’s all new-testament, baby. It’s a reality the conservatives only dream of creating. Unless they really start caring about truth and fairness toward everyone it will stay an ephemeral dream to them as they create and recreate for selfish gain.
Sermon’s over. Did not plan to go there. That was my secret… now I’ve gone and done it! Shucks! Peace WTH
sallyb
Posted by sallyb36 on Jun 30, 2006 at 11:22 PM WTH…I was referring to your post on June 19 at 6:18…I replied on June 20 at 6:22 and 7:17…thats what the jokes…huh..huh..huh…is about ; anyway…..WTH , Frog ,Rabbit , Sally….it seems to me that this whole process has been out of wack for sometime now , before the current regime…The big question is ” Will these Nazi bass-TERDS…leave power when voted out of office. ? “..Clinton approx. 130 + or - signed statements…Ol’ Man Bush about the same number…the Paper Cowboy….750+ signed statements…Damn Sam….No war time Chief of State has anywhere near that number…I believe Nixon is in the mid 200’s…and this FOOL still has roughly 2 years left…I would guess the other important question is “can they be voted out of office…? “....If the answer is no to one or both questions….then this nation is in for some truely history making…ideological changes , too correct this problem… I do not believe this power grab is going away any time soon. It is my feeling that globalization in the form of a friendly fascism type agenda , good cop , bad cop scenario commonly known as ” Trilateralism ” ; will continue because amerikan citizens are just too gullible…I can imagine the scenario now…election 2008…overwhelming victory by the left…despite attempts at voter fraud by the neo-con artist…all of a sudden ” the dreaded big terrorist attack…run for your lives ! ! ! “...and the neo-con fascists ” sign statement ” away the election results , Big BaBee BuckFush the Boy Prince just refusniks the laws away…the Senate and Congress rollover like cheap crack-whores and that is that…I hope I am wrong in my reasonings…maybe…but time and again this regime has proven one thang clearly…and that is ” Power Concedes Nothing Without A Struggle ” at the end of the day…they have the ARMY….
p.s…..Nazi Germany was also very much worried about Flag Desecration…...?
p.s.s…What did Dickhead Cheney say back in 2000 ; being concerned about the erosion of executive powers ? ?
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 1, 2006 at 2:06 AM Sallyb
I suspected you were not just sitting whingeing while all that was going on. You are believable, in the same way that WTH is when he recounts the effects of globalisation on his family and city.On the Cops & Courts side , WTH has a problem in recognising that they can be lying and oppressive. He’ll get over that.
On the Fear of the Polish Plumber thread WTH ‘s own observations were spot on——
...... Check out the ratio of CEO income increases to the employees at his company.
......Without resistance GLOBALIZATION will let world income seek a common denominator for all goods and services — except of course for the elite management class.
Of course, if WTH the graphics artist uses his talents to make witty and powerful posters, and starts pasteing them, he will find that much will depend on how the cops interpret them .
Redhorse
I’m still waiting to see if the 750figure is correct on signing statements, but even without that, the system is sure out of whack, and Power is sure being concentrated.
Overwhelming victory by the Left”? is rather sweeeping , surely ? Unfortunately the Dems are almost, mostly ! , as bad as the others, so you yanks are in a bind .No schadenfreude there, exactly the same problem in UK and France .
Posted by frog on Jul 1, 2006 at 7:17 AM frog….from my understandihg 750 signings is the low ball number….The ” overhelming victory “is a analogy….when the hamper hits the nail ; we still need a candidate with integrity…Kerrys a joke in my book…as stated before , Hollywood Al Gore seems to be the best move…but anything could happen….My main concern is that no matter who wins ( a moderate Republican maybe ) the neo-cons following Cheneys lead will find a way too stay in power…The Supreme Court ruling was a setback but you gotta give these neo-cons credit , they don’t quit , and personally I believe , everybody is in their pocket ....It is very strange to hear statements of truth made by ol’ archrival racist like Sen. Bryd or a guy like retiring Sen. Hollings , and find myself agreeing with what they say….....................”.Truth crushed down and trampled , rising and finding the light of day….”
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 1, 2006 at 11:21 AM Sallyb, Redhorse, Frog,
I find it interesting that you keyed in on the 750 number even though I explained this was total number of issues, NOT number of signings. This is exactly the point I’ve been trying to make — writers appeal to our biases and I believe we need to be skeptical and cautious in what we accept.
I repeat from yesterday…
“I had not heard of this provision, but I found it goes back to the early days of our government. That he has signed NOT 750 such statements, but rather just over 100 (110?) which is in line with those by Reagan, Bush 41, and Clinton. He did have 750 DISPUTED ISSUES (emphsis added) within the total, but there is no tally of total issues listed for previous presidents for comparison.
Sallyb,
If in your initial comments about Carol Fisher you had indicated you knew her, had first hand knowledge, etc., it would have been more credible. I would still say (if passing it along) that I heard it from someone I do not really know, but it’s a lot more meaningful.
I guess you all may consider yourselves to be liberal (I don’t think such labels are too meaningful), but IMO nearly everyone, whether liberal or conservative, is too quick to profile and categorize individuals and their comments.
I assumed, Sallyb, (not knowing your association)that you were so anxious to get rid of Bush that you were just passing along some of the other stuff I read on the blogs about her case.
You (with the exception of Frog) as well as the Guardian author accepted the 750 number probably due to your anti-Bush feelings.
Sallyb — first you called me a liar for my perceptions of the case and in the last post you have me as, “...not caring” and condemning you as a “...bleeding heart liberal Christian.”
Seems like a lot to assume from so little evidence.
———————————& ———While I agree we have a lot of governmental problems, we are still doing a better job than most countries. Carol will be able to appeal and perhaps sue for redress. Bush’s polls (I don’t place a lot of faith in polls unless I know what was asked and how.) are pathetic which at least indicates many ordinary people, Republicans, Democrats and the rest of us, are not buying into the program.
No, Frog, I know cops can and some do lie. I just don’t accept that it is prevalent in the U.S. at least not locally. Don’t let those who are totally down on the U.S. currently, get to you totally.
——————-
“Of course, if WTH the graphics artist uses his talents to make witty and powerful posters, and starts pasteing them, he will find that much will depend on how the cops interpret them .”I’m probably on a few lists already for some of my political cartoons.
———————————& ——Things are seldom as bad as they seem or as good as they could be. Media of all kinds thrive on hyperbole. They like to simplify things into a simple 2-way choice. Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, is a rare commodity
As for politicians — the first time I heard Clinton speak I thought I could vote for him, but before the election I said to a friend, “I think this guy is morally bankrupt.”
As citizens we have gone from President Clinton to whom all is relative (“It depends on what is IS.”) to President Bush to whom all is absolute. (Staying the course and loyal to Rumsfeld and others. Neither one is a good approach to life. And both are bad qualities for a leader with so much power.
Redhorse,
I went back and checked out your joke—
None of the females I know well enough to be in my car would think of getting in if Teddy was there. Actually, I doubt if Teddy would even FIT in my 1991 Jetta so no worries. :-)
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 1, 2006 at 4:49 PM WTH
You have a good point about the “rush to judgement” by prejudice.To put it another way, its a human weakness to somewhat enjoy, even momentarily, having one’s own judgement confirmed by “events”, however horrible. And then there is a ‘temptation’ to accept just anything.
Most people I know here were aghast when George became President. After 911, the reaction was worry about what he would do, from my small sample ranging from wealthy CEO to mechanics and peasant farmers .
His actions since, internationally and internally, have confirmed our worst fears both for the world and the USA itself.
No enjoyment there, its gone too far.
I see no good things coming out of the Bush admin, apart from the Possibility that it has done so much so wrong, that the American people will eventually wake up !
In your little fracas with Sally, you stated that her fellow-citizen ‘wanted’ to be arrested. No proof. Maybe she just wanted to post the rest of her pile and go home for a cuppa tea . I dunno.
WHEN I go fly-posting, it will be in the middle of the night. No danger at night here, for anybody, and I’d do it that way to be hyper-discrete ; being a coward. I don’t even know the law on the subject, but am sure its against me.
Cops are always “local”, to you, when they get ’ you’ !
Should you ever decide to leave us, even without it , I demand a viewing of your political cartoons.
PS Bleifuss on tomdelay is quite something, for all.
PPS mac v microsoft, mine is MS (ughh) but a system-clean sorted my similar prob here.
PPS Your family history of whistleblowers and other ornery honest people may make you appreciate this guy.
Lt Cdr Swift does not have “experience in a variety of settings” .
Oh yeah ?As with the rest of the ever-increasing number of whistleblowers, OR those who stepped out of line, frog is now awaiting the whole gamut—- ranging from mild denigration, through character-assassination, to trumped-up charges.
Posted by frog on Jul 1, 2006 at 9:19 PM WTH…I am indifferent too the number of signing statements Bush has or has not signed…the 750+ number was a number I heard reported on Pacifica radio….If you have links proving that number invalid…I would welcome them….Your family history of integrity is honorable…too bad most amerikans do not have your values…integrity is a spiritual principle or more so discipline that is desparately needed in todays culture…In general , my knowledge and perspective of amerikan history is from the viewpoint of rebellion against a system that promoted unequal access too resources for some people, and the promotion of access to reources for others…I cannot and will not change that perspective just the same as you cannot change yours…Having said this I marvel at the immature nature of this whole situation…The child-like way this administration can manipulate the information that is so important to individual and collective well-being…Bush & Co are without equal in history ; the destructive manifestation of force and the xenophobic nature inherent in their propaganda makes it impossible to really know what ” the facts are ” concerning anything..whether the number is in the 100’s or 750+ is of little concern , the big picture for guys like you and me IS freedom…and the continued ability too excercise that freedom…and brother…Bush has got it in for both of us…So I would suggest , that you not worry about what propaganda may be coming from the left or even the more radical elements of the social order…because that represents growth and maturity…we are not in power of a nation , just ourselves….our agenda does not murder and imprison thousands every day and waste millions and billions of taxpayer dollars..the reigning social order does….How can we be sure that this signing statement issue is not another manipulation of facts on the right….too garner sympathy for Bush and his low approval numbers….a kind of Carl Rovian mis-direction play…Now the White House can cry about how the poor President is being misrepresent in the news media and you amerikans need too know that he’s working hard to keep you safe from Terrorism…Yes…I dislike the Boy Blunder…news media says he signed away the law 750+ times…no shit…now I’ve got a number on the bus that ran over my foot…o… ok my bad… not 750 but 125…hey , I still got the number…Look you were duked into voting for that skumbag…don’t throw good logic after bad….The Boys a mental case…impeachments too good…a rubber room is too GITMO…I would guess the correct approach is the Hague , international tribunal and prosecution…...hey , just one working guy to another
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 1, 2006 at 11:32 PM WTH…the New York Times story about intelligence tracking the money movements concerning terrorist is another example…the stories been out for 5 years ( like the general public couldn’t figure this out ), the Times no tower of virtue in my book , did not report anythang until now…but the Regime says this is a threat too national security…..like ahhhhhh…Valerie Plame , apparently this woman was extremely good at what she did…finding and tracking REAL terrorist…but as CRscorpy & Co. would call it the liberal ” Novak ” lead media outted the nice lady…Scooter takes the fall…and Rove keeps on click’in….maybe Mrs. Plames work was pointing her in the direction of one , Goofy Wonder Bush and the Boy Blunder had too ax that investigation..it’s all rather convenient don’t you think…no real fallout..now Rove can concentrate on the november elections…don’t you feel safe…What’s too stop Bush from ” sign statementing ” away the elections…..Mrs.Plame won’t be there to protect the U.S. from terrorism..something Bad happens before the november election .and Bush or more correctly Cheney will institute the order too sign a statement nullifying the results…or maybe they’ll what until 2008 to pull that trick…hey…save the best for last
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 2, 2006 at 12:19 AM WTH…I realize that the news media story is that Mrs Plames husband and the so-called ” yellow cake uranium ” source to terrorist story , and the fake nature of those reports led too her being ditched…but as non-transparent as this administration is ” how’s to say ?? “....
Also…with the broad , generally vague language used in most legal documents , your low number could represent the much broader perspective of my high numbers . the implications being that Bush has signed statement ” X ” number of documents that touch on ” Y ” number of laws broken…...
Just a thought…...............
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 2, 2006 at 12:58 AM HORSE,
Bush can go to the Hague, Gitmo, or Hell,But WTH and I will have a large Haig, and share it with <b>anyone <:b>except the arachnid, natty, or tina.
Froggy bedtime. Cheers,all.
Posted by frog on Jul 2, 2006 at 1:02 AM frog…Thanks for the spelling lesson…sometimes I forget to check all my spelling…HAGUE….No reason to be so mean too a guy like Bush…he’s only trying to impress mommy and daddy so they don’t think he’s the bum…that he IS….
P.S. I remember during the Iran / Contra business , the Final Call newspaper ran a picture of Ol’ Man Bush when he was CIA chief…he was seated on a sofa next to none other than the infamous, notorious cocaine Panamainian Strongman Manuel Noriega.. in Panama….later the senior Mr. Bush as VP claimed to have never met the man , and did not know that Noriega was dealing drugs or a paided CIA informant….now frog , that’s a lotta pressure for a little snitt like baby george…he had too find someone to bomb and pillage…that’s why Daddy left him Iraq…..
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 2, 2006 at 3:10 AM We looked up the “laws” or ordinances for our little city regarding posting notices. There is an ordinance and a fine for posting on telephone poles, light poles, street signs, even the tree lawn area between the sidewalk and the curb.
We found it interesting because we see signs posted for all kind of reasons. Apparently many citizens, including politicos. do not know the laws. I wonder how many people have been fined for their garage, yard sale, party. It does explain why realtors post their signs in one’s lawn.
Now my sarcastic nature clicks in to ponder how many of the good citizens of this fair city and other burbs like us near Cleveland have been taken down, cuffed and arresting for posting those “illegal” signs?
And while I’m feeling sarcastic, I’ve often heard that “ignorance of the law” is no excuse. Does that include the policeman who lives 3 doors from me, who should know the law, yet who has been shooting off illegal fireworks the last 3 days, a long-lasting barrage of them tonight at 11:45 pm? Who dares call the police to report one of their own?
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 2, 2006 at 4:17 AM Sally36 , WTH ,frog , rabbit…...So I wonder if the good police officer , down the street from Sally36 ; understands that in breaking that fireworks ordinance…he is also guilty of disturbing the peace…reckless endangerment ( he could start a fire that spreads thru the whole neighborhood )...illegal possession of a controlled substance or device…illegal purchase of controlled substance and or device and the transportation of said substance or device across state and or county ,district or city lines….the list can go on…in other words , now pay attention WTH , transgression ” A ” can lead to violations ” X , Y , and Z ......ONE signed statement of the intend too disobey the law…can lead to numerous violations of law…that’s very interesting…I won’t want too be misled…might vote for a moron….
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 2, 2006 at 5:23 AM -
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