On June 2, Rolling Stone published a lengthy article by Robert J. Kennedy, Jr., “Was the 2004 Election Stolen?” That article echoes the title of a book that Steven F. Freeman and I have written that has just been published by Seven Stories Press, Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen? Exit Polls, Election Fraud, and the Official Count. We provided Kennedy… return to article
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Reader Comments (462)Wow WTH,
I guess 10,000 per year makes sense, given all the stuff you’ve bought. It just seemed like a lot to me, but then again I forget just how much more expensive stuff used to be.
Damn that free market, making us all feel like fools for buying something that a year later costs half as much and has twice the capabilities.
Gosh, saw an ad on TV for a complete Dell system for 299.00. Tempting, but no, I don’t think so.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the topic, except wait….there was something about computer voting…..I’m covered.
Posted by Natalie on Jul 11, 2006 at 4:45 PM Hey Natalie, The Verbose, who tries to win points with the most words…
I’m not the one who created this plan and announced it to the world. The neocons themselves came up with it. So don’t think you win points by passing off your vapid presumptions with your gung-ho bushish words to cover-up the neocons’ agenda.Surely you have heard of “Progress for a New American Century” or the acronym PNAC. Look it up for yourself. Imperialist designs announced by the very innocents you defend.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
And by the way, you have not heard me praise Democratic actions or inactions. So get off that pedestal.
No, I doubt that I will ever trust Bush as a “good man.” I knew him as our governor when I lived in Texas. A good man does not laugh about and make fun of the pleas of a prisoner on death row and increase the death penalty to “make his mark.” A good man does not respond to his huge deficit spending upon leaving office in Texas, “That’s the next governor’s problem.” (Similar to what he now says about the Iraq War.) I’ve seen alot of people who are good actors, playing the part of the good man or the good woman. He should get an academy award for his performance.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 11, 2006 at 5:54 PM This Monday, the U.S. TV news was reporting that Saudia Arabia has still not complied with U.S. government requests to remove slurs in students’ textbooks that promote hatred of the U.S. and Israel. The U.S. believes it is serious enough to create a terroist mentality in the children, creating future bombers, etc. Saudi Arabian officials responded that they could only do so much, because they had to cooperate with the desires of their people.
These are Bush family friends who are allowing hatred to grow and develop toward the U. S. in the minds of their children.
I do not condone the hatred or the killing but I also wonder what our youth would do if we taught hatred in our textbooks, along with religious fervor that accepted that one religion only; then 10 or 20 years from now another country invaded the U.S., bombed out it’s infrastructure and occupied it. Would any members of this society commit crimes against its own people?
Sitting smugly, condemning others for what we don’t understand serves no greater purpose.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 11, 2006 at 6:15 PM I’m not the one who created this plan and announced it to the world. The neocons themselves came up with it…....Surely you have heard of “Progress for a New American Century” or the acronym PNAC. Look it up for yourself. Imperialist designs announced by the very innocents you defend.
No, there was no “plan” by Neocons to do what was done after 9/11. This is another attempt to take things out of context and apply paranoid thinking in order to make sense of the world according to the left. It’s the same concept that has been applied to come up with an imaginary “bombs in buildings” plan, or “war for oil” plan, or “radioactive vapors encircling the Earth” plan. What exactly is your definition of Neocon, Sally?
And by the way, you have not heard me praise Democratic actions or inactions. So get off that pedestal.
No, I doubt that I will ever trust Bush as a “good man.” I knew him as our governor when I lived in Texas. A good man does not laugh about and make fun of the pleas of a prisoner on death row and increase the death penalty to “make his mark.” A good man does not respond to his huge deficit spending upon leaving office in Texas, “That’s the next governor’s problem.” (Similar to what he now says about the Iraq War.) I’ve seen alot of people who are good actors, playing the part of the good man or the good woman. He should get an academy award for his performance.You may want to check all this for accuracy and context, as per our lesson above. You might want to give some weight to the fact that he was re-elected by a fairly large margin in Texas. You might want to consider that Texas continues to elect him as President. What do you know or perceive that so many other Texans don’t?
Posted by Natalie on Jul 11, 2006 at 8:39 PM This Monday, the U.S. TV news was reporting that Saudia Arabia has still not complied with U.S. government requests to remove slurs in students’ textbooks that promote hatred of the U.S. and Israel.
Yep, you’ve pretty much nailed the basic problem we’ve had with Islamic extremism for a long time now. Young Arabs being brainwashed from birth to hate and to kill, simply on the grounds that non-Muslims don’t have a right to exist. (all those other excuses are pretty much just that) Even fundamentalist Christianity teaches the exact opposite.
These are Bush family friends who are allowing hatred to grow and develop toward the U. S. in the minds of their children.
Putting aside the fact that Saudi Arabia has been cozy with virtually every administration in recent history due to their oil reserves, are you now advocating that we pressure another sovereign government to do our bidding? Seems a bit out of character. But if so, it’s the environmental left that does everything it can to prevent us from gaining any kind of leverage with Saudi Arabia and the middle east in general, by having the capability to replace whatever supply they threaten to cut off with that of our own.
I do not condone the hatred or the killing but I also wonder what our youth would do if we taught hatred in our textbooks, along with religious fervor that accepted that one religion only; then 10 or 20 years from now another country invaded the U.S., bombed out it’s infrastructure and occupied it. Would any members of this society commit crimes against its own people?
You seem to readily reject my rather plausible scenario about a Democratic administration doing pretty much what Bush did after 9/11. Mind if I reject this as completely and totally absurd? For one thing, even if Christians did take over everything and demand only their religion be taught, what do you suppose they would teach? Certainly not hate. They would teach love, forgiveness, and all that. They would teach hate the sin, but love the sinner. But you’re right, if someone bombed us to smithereens and occupied our country, it just might cause some people to turn against other people. More likely though, there would be a united effort to expel the invaders, something you strangely don’t see in Iraq. Thankfully, due to the U.S. military, you simply don’t have to worry about this ever happening.
Sitting smugly, condemning others for what we don’t understand serves no greater purpose.
First you complain that Bush isn’t doing enough to stop certain behavior in another country, and then you say we shouldn’t condemn others for what we “don’t understand”? Seems a little contradictory, or am I misunderstanding you?
Posted by Natalie on Jul 11, 2006 at 8:40 PM The PNAC “plan”, if you insist, is simply the opinion of some very intelligent and experienced individuals as to the best way to maintain U.S. military superiority and flexibility, in the face of some very tough challenges emerging on the horizon.
There is nothing in it that could be construed by any reasonably intelligent individual as a plan to take over anyone or gain exclusive control over anything.
I would think, that given all the actual attempts to conquer others by individuals and governments that care absolutely nothing about the human rights the left so champions, and the many actions taken by the U.S. and like-minded militaries to stop them, you all would be applauding the PNAC.
But I suspect that would be asking way too much.
Posted by Natalie on Jul 11, 2006 at 9:33 PM Having lived and worked in Texas for 10 years, I think I know more than
you give me credit for, buckaroo.YOU do not understand the psychology, the psyche that is Texas. It still thinks it is a separate entity, even flies and flaunts itself under a flag as “The Lone Star State.”
You know, your dribble is just that. Without substance. Hollering that nothing has substance that does not fall under the guise of your understanding. You’re just a slanderous shill, placed to create havoc with twisted truths and pseudo-wisdom.
I question why you ask my permission to reject what I say because that is generally your position in this discussion. You reject the subject and divert with your “plausible pleas.”
And my dear, you go hence into the darkest of nights when you profess that you know what Christians will teach. Oh my, right south of me in Columbus, Ohio their is hatred of anything not promoted by that church and mistrust of other religions spoken by the Rev. Rod Parsley in his mega-church. Dobson, Robertson, Falwell are all divisive leaders who reach for political powers.Go peddle your wares somewhere else little shill. I’ve listened to Robertson and Falwell 40-50 years ago. I tossed Dobson’s “How to Discipline Children” out after reading it in 1974-75. I was a Sunday school teacher for 25 years, teaching adults for over 10. I know what that good book teaches and they are passing up the Sermon on the Mount for Old Testament passages that were given to bring peace and understanding to Christians. I tried fundamentalism and had to pass it up because I considered it too self-encompassing. I have been stomped on by the best of christians and that had little to do with love and forgiveness. One person did not like that in my Sunday school class people could discuss real life without recrimination; how we could interpret the teachings in dealing with our lives. There were more in attendance in that class than church service. It’s not just “teaching” Natalie, it’s application.
That’s enough. Your heart is so cold it’s a sheer waste of my time dickering with you. Peace. Get real.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 11, 2006 at 9:56 PM WTH
I’m awaiting Craig Murray now, and considering to buy Smedley . Will check to see if he’s free on the net, or in print.
One which will also interest you is nathaniel fick. The two shepherds story.A very few US soldiers are on trial. NO. I’m definitely not impressed, especially after the very public attempts at cover-up. (Same for UK)
I remember not only Lt Calley, but also very many others who have continued unpunished. My personal examples are non-US—- WW2, Korea, Suez, Uganda , Algeria, Northern Ireland.
Am I predisposed to believe the worst of the US ?
Not necessarily.. I"ve believed for some time that the US has the worst, and the best , in it . Like all countries.
My criticisms are not aimed specifically at the US, as in Anti-Americanism. They may seem to be sometimes, but that is only because we are usually talking in an American context, on an American site. And if we do get onto the Invasions, US is the leader, but Oz and UK just behind, just as guilty. (My dad was brit, but also Oz for 30yrs, so an affinity with the country.)
Here in France the wingnut gov is trying to destroy our OSHA inspectorate. I know some of them, they do a brilliant job, and are under-manned already. Those guys save lives, do their best to protect workers. US the same.
The former brit Foreign Secretary Jack Straw is “elected” by a constituency that has an extra-ordinary 16000 postal votes, and there is good reason for suspecting fraud. Well, a little more than that. One of his Party workers went down for three years. US the same.
The multi-generational multi-party Conspiracy is quite believable.
Monarchies traverse generations , and the institution has often been strong enough to survive weak or mad kings. King George 111 was pretty mad. Hugely rich families are VERY similar.
Money and power. Power and money.
Parties in a stable state often have common allegiances, or fears, that transcend their Party divide. In the modern state, the power of the lobbies, the financiers , industrialists and media is so great that either Party is more beholden to them than it is loyal to the well-being of the voters, or any ideal of justice.
Did you ever get to see Mr Smith goes to Washington ?
I must confess I take a wicked pleasure when Dubya opens his mouth, but it is tinged with sadness, when I think of the good Americans I know., and the suffering needlessly imposed on the world.
For Blair there is a stronger feeling . He is very clever, but also wrong on everything he does. Phenomenal !
” A first-class politician, a second-class brain. And no morals .”
I hear Dubya is going soon to Germany, and I expect the opponents will attempt to turn out in force . Condi’s visit to provincial UK was NOT a success, and the last time Dubya was in Germany, the streets were so cleared that where he drove was like a ghost town in the movies.
Old Pinochet came to London. Hmm. Hmm.
Kissinger has to think twice before he travels.
We’ll see?
Posted by frog on Jul 11, 2006 at 10:53 PM sally,
When the Mujahadin and Hekmatyar were US allies, the textbooks of religious hate were printed in the mighty ** of A .
The idea at the time was to get the next generation really indoctrinated to fight “Commies” I suppose.
Does a shill know what it is doing ?
Posted by frog on Jul 11, 2006 at 11:08 PM Conservative- someone who advocates the promotion of U.S. national interest in international affairs
(No problem there)depending on military means
(This is the bully whip and the loss of respect and humanity)
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 12, 2006 at 2:52 AM Frog,
Shills operate on command, like robots without a brain. Or is that
the scarecrow?They have a script and are programmed stick to it religiously.
That’s why it cost $10,000 one year to set it up.A real live, down-to-earth human would know that a little wait for the newness to wear off,
would ring the price down on such toys and gimmicks.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 12, 2006 at 3:03 AM The US trying of these men will not impress me WTH until it actually results in justice. We all know how many soldiers were even tried from My Lai, and I cannot even bear to write the final result. Can you revisit the closest you ever came to really trying the abuse, with pride?
So the fact that despite months of attempts to cover this up, for that has been the case WTH, we read about this in such as the Scorpy is sneeringly calling terrorist sources, back in November I think. The story of the Pentagon attempts to cover it up, from the men on up, has been followed closely on truthful news sites too. So you mustn’t get all excited thinking that things are looking up now that a couple of the guys in the platoon started to put two and two together and realised the recent insurgent brutality against his unit had a justifiable cause. That’s about how I read it WTH, so you’ll forgive me if I’m not overwhelmed just just yet.
I would like to repeat that this is but one of many such instances which are being reported if you care to look beyond your own backyard.
You folks really need to get over the idea that the whole world outside the USA exists only to spread propaganda for American ears only.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 12, 2006 at 7:18 AM Sally I am an ex mormon and know a thing or two about fundamentalist christians too. Parents and sister still.
I see you’ve had the Natty experience. We all end up with a similar reaction eventually. It is why Rabbit calls her the Vampire. Natalie the Vampire Bat, Natty Bat, rabbit’s favoritist shill. Love of anything which causes death or suffering, anything dark and monstrous attracts her support like a moth to a light.
I have a question Sally
Exactly what were those slurs exactly? I do think in this age of jumping to pre concieved notions to quickly and grasping at anything to support our delusions, we should exercise caution. As I first wanted to hear more than a single report of an uncle claiming his family was murdered by US troops before I decided it was an atrocity, I also like to know what is this terrible slur?
The fact that the lunatics in power find some way to conclude something in a textbook was a terra’ist plot, doesn’t exactly fill me with righteous outrage at this stage.
Delightful that “others” cling so quickly and unthinkingly, showing why Rabbit is often compelled to call many of their small accusations of ill reason, ironic. Hi WTH.
Not that the rabbit is trying to defend Saudi Arabians who he has only poor experiences of, but merely suggesting a little more reason is called for before we try to use something to justify awar of civilisations. By the way, I wonder why Muslims seem to not care what we write about them these days in our school text books?
The empathy would be beyond any of the morons, but for the others, just compare the sort of depictions which are now becoming normal and are certainly evident in the west’s education systems? Yet the Muslims who hate our way of life so much couldn’t even bother to protest?
It just so happens that a good friend of mine taught science in Saudi Arabia for several years, he has some interesting stories to tell. Nowhere did he mention anti-americanism among those who actually read textbooks. Those who go to school, ie; read textbooks, are actually very americanised., The poor people, the majority who suffer by virtue of America’s support of the tyrranical Saudi familes, hate America. Sure they’d like to kill anyone of you who they could get their hands on, and drink your blood and burn your bones and piss on them. They lie awake at night dreaming of slitting your soft american throats. Mad as beasts they are and if it wasn’t for the Saudi Royals those vicious Mad Muslims would be coming out of the woodwork in the USA. That’s really why they want better conditions and wages etc, so they can save up enough to come to America to kill infidels. But not those who read textbooks, I don’t think so. They have a better education system than you have ever seen I undestand. For the privelaged few.
Scorpy or was it Natty, maybe both, were wondering about Bushling and ICC. Or should I say doubting. More discussion of War Criminal Bushling.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 12, 2006 at 7:25 AM Frog asks a poignant question.
Does a shill know what it is doing ?
....................^^....................
That is a question which will probably never be answered.
It reminds the rabbit about the story of the two door guards one of whom will ALWAYS lie and the other who will ALWAYS tell the truth. But you don’t know the difference. How do you find out if the door on the right or the left is the one? Doctor Who solved it as we know, but I’m not sure if we can solve your quandary.
Good question though it shows deep thought. Under the pond sort of thinking.
How goes it Frog? Rabbit has found a new toy, hast thou seen it?
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 12, 2006 at 7:54 AM F***, Sh**, and BU**er,
Frog just gave refs to USAID/ CIA afghan hatebooks, and power down !
Here it is—CBC on jihadi warrior textbooks published in the good old USA .
Sally and rabbit are both correct.
At primary level in Saudi, books such as this surely to be found, just as jihadi but probably less war-like.
. I guess rabbit’s friend was teaching science at university level, completely different.
Try jihadising Gray’s Anatomy .A major problem in Saudi is the large amount of money subsidising advanced studies in theology, and all those guys have to end up somewhere .....
My question to sally was based on ” FORGIVE THEM, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO ” .
PS new rabbit ? + mystery (electric ?) item ?
Posted by frog on Jul 12, 2006 at 8:17 AM Frog a new toy yes. No not so much electric, as electronic. See email.
More naughtiness on the electoral front The usual suspects.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 12, 2006 at 8:39 AM KARABILAH, Iraq (July 7, 2006)—Thanks to the work of Marines and Iraqi Security Forces, 800 elementary-aged girls will now have a school to attend this fall.
Marines from 1st Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment unveiled a brand new grade school in this city of about 30,000 on the Iraq-Syria border in western Al Anbar Province July 7, 2006…....
........Local tribal leaders and sheikhs attended the school’s grand opening and expressed thanks to the Marines of 3rd Civil Affairs Group who spearheaded the reconstruction project and obtained the necessary manpower to complete the building.
Civil Affairs teams oversee funding for a variety of reconstruction projects in the region which bolster Iraqis’ quality of life while improving the economy, said Lt. Col. Larry L. White, the civil military operations center director for the Al Qa’im region.
The team spent nearly two years finding a contractor to complete the project and locals had lost hope of seeing their school constructed since it was destroyed in 2003 during heavy fighting between Marines and insurgents, according to Mallicoat, 33, from Vancouver, Wash.
“I want to thank the Coalition Forces on behalf of all of the people of Karabilah for finishing the school very fast and for supporting the construction of a fine place,” said Mohammed Ahmed Selah, mayor of Karabilah, where the school is located.
The mayor and the Marines agree that the school’s neighborhood is relatively safe although there is still the threat if IED’s – the insurgents preferred method of attack, according to Bernier, a Fallbrook, Calif. native.
“The bomb was a last ditch effort by insurgents to destroy the progress we’ve made in this area, said Bernier.
Gotta love that “resistance”!!! Viva la resistance!!!!
Posted by Natalie on Jul 12, 2006 at 8:41 AM Hooray for the brave marines. The Iraqis should definately lay down their arms now and accept old uncle sam’s tutellage and beneficence. Look at that almost a thousand kids get to go to school. WOW.
Soon they might even get electricity too! Do you think?
Yep and the American officer is explaining the whos and motives of the resistance, that’s just all OK then Natalie. Thanks for setting us straight. I guess we’ll be seeing the Iraqi’s at the next World Cup then.
It’s just so good of those marines to come and fix all this infrastructure which those pesky Iraqi’s blew up all by themselves. It’s a wonder the Iraqis even had anything before the USA managed to save them from themselves, bringing schools, and power and hospitals, and security.
Now Uncle Sammy is gonna build them a whole new country, one school at a time. Maybe next thing a hospital. I remember the last feel good story you showed us from Iraq Natalie my fanged flappy thing of the dark. I think it was about some children who were playing in the street. I think it was showing how much fun they were having and how safe they felt. I seem to recall the street was somewhere in a town called Fallujah. A week or two before the town stopped being a town.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 12, 2006 at 8:51 AM Review of Causes of WTC Collapse
Severe though the structural damage due to aircraft impacts was, it was only local. Without stripping of much of steel insulation during impact, the subsequent fire could not have led to overall collapse (Bazant and Zhou 2002, NIST 2005). As generally accepted by structural engineering and structural mechanics experts (though not by some laymen and fanatics seeking to detect a conspiracy), the failure scenario, broadly proposed by Bazant (2001), and Bazant and Zhou (2002), on the basis of simplified analysis, and supported by very realistic, meticulous and illuminating computer simulations and exhaustive investigations by S. Shyam Sunder’s team at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST, 2005), may be as follows: (1mb pdf)
Steven E. Jones….....call your office!!! You’ve been invited to a debate.
Posted by Natalie on Jul 12, 2006 at 9:14 AM Nice little piece of PR….Always interesting to read feel good PR about the illegal occupation of another nation by US troops….Now we can teach little Iraqi girls about Christmas…and the Eastern bunny…Please Natty…you must be running low on propaganda…
US human rights agenda under the Bush regime….devastate any given nation…into obliteration….then do some photo / news ops. for feel good news media…so neo-con sympathizers can view with there morning… mocha latte’.......
Do they serve falafel pizza in the cafeteria….
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 12, 2006 at 11:31 AM Rabbit….My hope is that out of office…Bush will have all kinds of international legal problems….The stups here in Amerika…will do nothing too prosecute this thug…...
Most Amerikan political nationalist are too concerned with the image a full blown prosecution of a former presdent would create….they fail to realize…how…something like an international tribunal could heal a lot of what dis-eases this country…..
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 12, 2006 at 11:52 AM Frog,
Thanks for the Nathaniel Fick link. I am in total agreement with him and have written similar comments as the following both here and on a few other sites.
• “The debate over whether the United States should have gone to war in Iraq is, from where I sit, moot.”
We ARE there and should fix it.• “What’s unforgivable in leaders is a lack of introspection and an unwillingness to admit and learn from mistakes…
Rumsfeld must go. Bush needs a new tape inserted.• “Instead of focusing exclusively on our offense, we should be setting up protected “cantons” — areas in which the locals’ security and comfort are our first priorities — and pouring manpower and money into them.
The borders were never properly sealed. Today, almost three years after the war began, men, weapons, and money, the three ingredients of insurgency, are freely crossing into Iraq from Syria and Iran.”
This is exactly why we lost in Vietnam. You must take and hold territory and no score by body count.
• “We can’t get out of Iraq anytime soon, and we shouldn’t. Colin Powell was right when he said, “If you break it, you own it.””Each of these points are also listed in the book, “Cobra II” — too bad Rummy and the Bush don’t read and learn.
The two shepherds story… We would never have known about this if he hadn’t told us. We do get the bad news (much later) when someone tortures, murders, or rapes. I wonder how many “shepherd stories” we’ll never hear? If it doesn’t get ratings who will tell it?
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 12, 2006 at 7:33 PM WTH
I heard him 8 april on the BBC. Have to have a lot of the right stuff to stand up to the dumb machine.God knows where next. What a mess.
CONFIDENTIAL FM TASHKENT AMBASSADOR TO FCO 18 march 2003I was horrified when the massive assault on Iraq started. I knew both that Iraq did not really possess WMDs, and that our weapons were much less precise than the news propaganda claimed; tens of thousands of civilians were dying.
Given that we were supporting the dictator Karimov, I thought it was pretty rich to be claiming to attack Hussein because he was a dictator. I was then outraged to see on BBC World TV a speech by George Bush saying we were going to war in Iraq to dismantle Hussein’s torture apparatus. I had just been informed that torture material was legitimate in the War on Terror.
I therefore sent the following telegram. This was the only protest from any British Ambassador at our entering on an illegal war, abandoning the UN Security Council, and following blindly George Bush’s violent and acquisitive foreign policy.
Craig Murray May 2006
This is a small example of his revelations, which were posted on the net on the Fourth of July…
BlairCo are trying to shut his site down, but it is widely mirrored , and equally valid for Americans to check out, as were the Downing Street Memos. SITE
they succeeded in his taking down some of the stuff, by blackmail of legal fees to ruin him,
Hot hard sweaty day today, and my pub’s still open . Just called. So am for a quick two or three, forget the problems of the world….
Seeya all.
Posted by frog on Jul 12, 2006 at 8:58 PM US Popular Vote
Agreement among States to elect the President by National Popular Vote….
Popular Vote makes all States Competitive
50 years Public support….70% or greater
Nation-wide agreement can be met with states agreement to pass idenitical laws awarding all electoral votes in all 50 states to popular vote winner
Interstate Compact
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 12, 2006 at 10:07 PM Redhorse,
Please clarify your last post. I can’t tell if you want a popular vote or if you want the electoral college.
How can a true popular vote possibly not make some states more competitive than others?
If all states agree to give all their electoral votes to the winner of their popular vote, how is this any different from our current system, at least the way it works 99.9 percent of the time?
Posted by Natalie on Jul 13, 2006 at 2:26 AM The computer sims were tweaked at various points way beyond the actual parameters until the required result happened. Furthermore they needed to be computer sims because there was no way they could tweak anything with a scale model which is still the simplest and most sure way to prove the thing possible, but it isn’t so nobody will. We’ve been there a long time ago Nat and I am not wasting time on it. Your quote actually didn’t support the fairy tale, it did nothing. Keep on smoldering away though, we couldn’t care less. The numbers of those who know the truth keeps growing, because rather than having to covince anybody of anything, we just have to get them to actually look at the verifiable facts. Nobody who does this isn’t automatically in the know.
Bruce Willis of all people is now onboard. He was a Flag humping neocon cheerleader until very recently, actually on record attacking the 911 truth movement. He was given the information by Richard Linklater, and upon seeing it, he realised. No convincing necessary.
What an uphill battle you shills have. Poor things.
One day I expect the government is going to manage, via one of their shills, to actually turn someone who has first known the truth. They will announce it on TV, and that person will be interviewed, given massive coverage on the MSM, as an example of someone who has been convinced of the official story, after having long been a “conspiracy theorist”. I hope for you Natty the shill who manages to convert that feeble minded soul is you. With all my heart I hope that that historic first convert makes you a famous shill. That day will be touted as a victory for the 911 Fairy Tale brigade. A whole one convert. What a win. Historical.
Until then my dear, you have just got to keep on shoveling. Good luck.
Now a quick hop back on TOPIC.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 13, 2006 at 2:44 AM NOTE: THE FOLLOWING QUOTE IS FROM THE TERRY ALLEN 9/11 ARTICLE
(The site won’t let me back into that discussion right now.)
—————————
“...the Bush administration actually manipulated this country to war on a train of lies riding tracks of fear—cynically using the bodies of the 9/11 victims as fuel.”
—————————
This reference is a little over a year old, but it fits right in here.Anyone who watches MSNCNBC financial reporting will know Ron Ansana is no wild-eyed liberal. I had did not recognize Julian Robertson immediately, but he is verifiable as a hedge fund manager of 53 years experience.
Legendary Funds Manager Predicts Utter Global Collapse Stemming From Bursting of Property Bubble
Blames Bush-Cheney “regime”
—————————
http://andongkim.com/articles/2005/06/JRobertsonglobalcollapse.htm
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 13, 2006 at 2:34 PM SALLY b,
IF you’re still around; come and have a good read at 911 FAITH.
IF NOT, maybe some other soul will follow the direction to an interesting debate ?
Rather a lot of interestin participants, worth that read.
Posted by frog on Jul 14, 2006 at 1:27 AM Heck -
Legendary Funds Manager Predicts Utter Global Collapse Stemming From Bursting of Property Bubble
Blames Bush-Cheney “regime”DON’T PANIC, HECK! EVERYONE WILL CONFUSE YOU WITH LAGOMORPH.
Your reference does not quite tell the full story of Mr. Julian Robertson. Robertson’s Tiger Funds lost $18 billion and are out of business. Robertson is facing multiple lawsuits. The cite below makes references to business and economic journals that detailed Robertson’s long fall from grace and his legal problems.
http://www.almartinraw.com/public/column219.html
It is a fact that there are economic cycles, and some cycles are more severe than others. It is also a fact that economic policies have a primary role in economic cycles.
The worst downturn in American history was the Great Depression. We had so little understanding of economic principles that we raised taxes and tariffs, which had the effect of depriving businesses and consumers of capital, and stifled trade, thus serving to prolong the Depression. The Great Depression saw unemployment rates of over 10% for eleven straight years, with unemployment reaching a peak of 24% in 1933.
The only two severe disruptions to our economy since the 1930s were the seventeen years of stagnation that followed Johnson’s Great Society (culminating in the Carter Catastrophe), and the dotcom Bubba Bubble, which popped in Clinton’s last year, giving us the Bubba Recession. Both of these economic problems were marked by massive tax increases that contributed to the economic problems. The Bubba tax increases also gave the Republicans control of the House for the first time in forty years.
You won’t learn anything from reading the New York Times, but the American economy is now vibrant, healthy, and growing. Regardless of what Mr. Robinson says, the only threat to the American economy is electing a Dimocrat who will, naturally, raise taxes.
Posted by scorp on Jul 14, 2006 at 1:58 AM AND the winner is…....................................................................... .....................................SCORPY.
How did that tubing go? It must have been much easier for you Scorpy dear troll.. You were having such fun you stayed away for a few days.
What kind of smoke do you use? Hickory or just Oak was always good for trout or eels in Rabbit’s experience.
The US economy is now healthy vibrant and growing, is it Scorpy, that is good to hear.
So is the Chinese economy. On a scale of one to ten, Scorpy and given China’s 50 billion dollar trade surplus, we shall call it 1. Where do you think America’s economy would measure?
What is the US trade surplus by the way? Rabbit can’t seem to recall.
Do you count the printing of little bits of paper which are exchanged for loans as an export product? Are the little bits of paper an export item? If so they are your main one.
Does Scorpy’s rusty old head realise that a country’s GDP is a farcical measure of the health of an economy by the way? It is and this is why.
Every time an ambulance is dispatched or a repair is made to a road, the GDP rises. The amount of business involved in supllying the WAR MACHINE is an enormous part of that GDP, for the USA, it is many times more than the percentage for any other country. A disaster like Katrina, through it’s massive generation of costly actions, and its smaller but significant costs of actually helping the victims, and cleaning up etc, all these things increase the GDP correspondingly. An interesting realisation brought to me by Dr David Suzuki in “From Naked Ape to Superspecies”.
America has an impressive GDP, is that what Scorpy means by a growing economy?
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 14, 2006 at 2:47 AM Lagomorph -
China? Well, yes. President Nixon made the historical opening to China specifically to bring it into the modern economic and social world. Nixon’s foresight has proven phenomenal, and we are gratified by the wonderful progress China has made. In fact, China’s entire GDP is about the same as the growth of American GDP since President Bush passed the tax cuts and revived the American economy after the Bubba Bubble and the Bubba Recession.
America’s economy is ranked far ahead of China’s economy. It is China that is eager to gain American dollars, while America is indifferent to Chinese yuan. China needs dollars to give the yuan stability and value, otherwise the yuan would be nothing more than fiat currency, having no intrinsic value. If (IF!) China continues to grow and prosper, someday it will develop economic instruments and institutions that have real value.
Meanwhile, the Chinese political system remains corrupt and inefficient, and will be needing all the real assets (American dollars) it can get to deal with it’s non-performing state-owned economy, it’s billions of dollars of non-performing bank loans, it’s agricultural inefficiency, and it’s aging population.
Your gross ignorance of economic matters is not unlike your gross ignorance of civil engineering. But that is your problem.
Posted by scorp on Jul 14, 2006 at 1:53 PM Scorp, Rabbit,
Didn’t these comments of Global Disaster from the referenced website set off any alarm bells?
——————————-
“There will be total collapse of public infrastructure. Total collapse of medical care systems. All public pension plans, Social Security will collapse. All corporate pension plans will collapse.”“The American consumer is effectively now supporting the rest of the planet,” he continued. “Consumption rates in all other nations are falling, have fallen to the point that the tax revenues to governments, that the business and industries those nation states are providing is now a net negative number relative to total debt service and public cost, that this exists in virtually every nation state on the planet now.”
And for much of this “doom”, interestingly, he blames the Bush-Cheney “regime”. ”
——————————-
Or didn’t you read the interview?
http://andongkim.com/articles/2005/06/JRobertsonglobalcollapse.htm
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 14, 2006 at 2:43 PM WTH
How did this thread get to economix ?
I think the thing you saw had some spoofing in it somewhere, your article unreachable, for me at least, and the original video of interview as well. If there was one….
DEFINITELY WEIRD .However, for a little light reading, DO try here, lotsa fun stuff on drugs and politix and economix, and julian robertson…
I speckt the whole thing was Al Martin spoofing .......the other guy…... but he himself is actually the doom-monger ........... and interesting ...
SCORPY for gawd’s sake ! The last I saw China had about $ 600 Bn in T-Bills an’ such . And was wondering how to get rid of them without their losing too much value, or not ?It is China that is eager to gain American dollars, (says the Scorp,above)
Frog the repentant sold his last for Euros at $0.847.
Posted by frog on Jul 14, 2006 at 4:22 PM Good election article by Palast
This Rape of women under Saddam Hussein era was a rare crime. Is this more of the American achievements in Iraq? I can’t understand why the ungrateful Iraqis are whinging.
Scorpy has an interesting Spin on the Chinese economic powerhouse. America, specifically Nixon is responsible. I might have known if anything good was happening America was behind it.
Good one Scorpy.Perhaps Scorpy could explain what exactly Nixon did to “bring China into the modern economic and social world”? Did he teach them how to make things and sell them Scorpy? Did America with it’s 200 year history teach China with it’s 3000 year history how to trade Scorpy? Maybe you mean all those bits of paper which Frog mentions, does selling the Chinese these bits of paper, make China more modern does it Scorpy?
In fact, China’s entire GDP is about the same as the growth of American GDP since President Bush passed the tax cuts and revived the American economy after the Bubba Bubble and the Bubba Recession.
GDP is not an indication of the health of an economy at all, as I explained Scorpy. The US GDP gets a special boost from it’s military spending, but that isn’t a strong economic factor now is it. Especially since due to the deficit, and the continual issuance of debt to keep on paying for that military. All such a GDP signifies is how much quicker you are sinking, in the case where it isn’t due to infrastructural spending and is finaced from abroad.
America’s economy is ranked far ahead of China’s economy.
By whom Scorpy? Do you mean it is far ahead in alphabetical listing? AE does come before CE I guess.
It is China that is eager to gain American dollars, while America is indifferent to Chinese yuan. China needs dollars to give the yuan stability and value, otherwise the yuan would be nothing more than fiat currency, having no intrinsic value. If (IF!) China continues to grow and prosper, someday it will develop economic instruments and institutions that have real value.
China is rather eager to get rid of American dollars at the moment actually Scorpy and are diversifying as quickly as they can without starting a panic. Let’s be honest here. The Chinese actually LOAN American dollars back to the USA, but what they get for it, is an even greater amount of American dollars. China basically owns you Scorpy, and they will either be allowed to use those American dollars to buy more and more of America, its businesses, land and anything else that is going in thye global garage sale which is approaching, or they will not hold onto those dollars.
Does Scorpy understand what happens when it becomes obvious China is dumping its Dollars? Oh of course I know, Scorpy thinks the world will get really rich from all those greenbacks floating around.
America may be indifferent to Chinese Yuan, but if the Chinese who are the main supllyer of much of your imports, decides it doesn’t want your dollars anymore, guess what? You will have to find something else to pay them with, or go without. It is the height of silliness to try and spin a totally debt based economy, which exists purely on the basis of the continuous issuing of debt by the Fed, as being the driving force of World economy. In fact what it is Scorpy is the bomb under the world economy. That insane fiat currency idea, with the short term strategy of recycling the petro dollar has now degenerated to a need for wars of conquest to support it. Trouble is, you are sinking so fats that you cannot steal enough, quickly enough to keep up with the inrushing water. The debt.
A fifty billion dollar surplus, is a healthy economy, if for a nation of on billion people. It is a surplus of fifty dollars for every man woman and child in China. If I divide the US national debt into your population, guess what. I get a debt of 27,000 dollars for every man woman and child in the USA.
China has plus $50 per person, USA has minus $27,000 per person. hmm, can someone help the rabbit see how this means the USA is the better economy, he doesn’t understand the maths it seems.
I guess since Australia is also in Surplus that means we are doing poorly too? Of course I’m sure we have the USA to thank for our economy too, Scorpy, I’m sure everyone in the world really was just waiting through history for the wall street geniuses to show us how to have an economy.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 15, 2006 at 12:46 AM Frog,
(I submitted this economic item here just to illustrate the gullibility of so many people.)
Apparently only you checked the source I gave. If you Goggle: “julian robertson” “june 22, 2005” (which is when I got it) you will get several denials of the interview, including one from CNBC.
I was immediately suspicious since CNBC’s goal in life is to boost the market and would be unlikely to air something so wildly negative without any rebuttal.
There actually was an interview and Robertson was sounding really bearish. Someone took the transcript and added increasingly dire comments to the point where Robertson is warning of a total global collapse — currencies, markets, pensions, governments — all caused by Bush and Cheney.
Most sites still carry this as a true and factual, legitimate interview. People from around the world replied to these sites with complete acceptance of the story.
Words (even from a “reliable” source) are unreliable. It matters not how many sites agree — do not accept INTERNET stories at face value — EVER!
Friends have repeatedly sent me “amazing” pictures of whales swallowing divers, odd animals mating, you name it. For years I have been trying to tell people PhotoShop has made pictures unreliable as evidence. If I had a reference to go by, I could make any metal in a photo look like Thermite had been used.
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 15, 2006 at 2:41 PM Frog,
I wanted to point out to some of those siting internet references that a single bogus story can generate countless other “corroborating” accounts.
This started as a real event, was deliberately altered to deceive (as a joke?) and went on from there with many people in many places taking it as a legitimate report.
Sorry, I don’t have a prize for you. :-)
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 16, 2006 at 12:19 PM Attention!
Anyone dissatisfied with the current U.S. two party system may find this site interesting.
———————————& ———-
“Who We Are
Unity08 is a group of citizens deeply concerned that the wheels have come off our political system, that the American Dream is slipping away, and that time is short to get things back on track.”
http://www.unity08.com/about
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 16, 2006 at 3:30 PM Like I said, a big Garage sale.
WTH
I did post a reply to your article yesterday but it got lost it seems.Experienced internet users and especially those who are genuinely seeking the truth, know how to trace a story to a reliable source. Verifying individual facts within a story is also another way to go.
The fact that there is bullshit on the web, doesn’t lesson the value of the net as an information source. That one can as a rule establish the truth or otherwise of anything on the web fairly quickly is the whole point to it. Example, you just did so with this article. Now mere repeats of a story on other sites is always to be watched for. Verifying a story is generally about finding the original source and comparing it to the type and location etc. For example, a story about a victim of the 7/7 London bombings which is printed in the West Australian lists her name as Sarah Levy. This could of course be repteated as you say and thus offer superficial confirmation of the story.
The intrepid investigator turns instead to the BBC story or even to a local newspaper in London and finds the name of said victim is instead Sharia Islam. Furthermore the almost word for word reporting of the West Australian story is clearly copied from the same BBCs source, with the single alteration of the name of the girl victim. (This happened by the way)
The process of dismantling someone else’s case in an internet debate requires that one does this. Confirm or deny the verity of something which may be crucial. Of course though it is common for independant thinkers and informed people to do this, denialists prefer a more general approach of denying anything outright if it clashes with their beliefs.
Mistakes are always possible, we can all be mistaken, but then these forums should give people a chance to straighten out their ideas. If they want to. Of course the annoying and disruptive thing is these idiots like Corpse who just rant and rave, deny anything without thought and spread their own brand of propaganda. Which of course amounts to no more than simplistic front page waffle as a rule. A dittohead is one of the most recognisable creatures on the net, and utterly predictable. Their ideas are exactly what one would expect if one believed more or less everything on the MSM.
Once in awhile Rabbit has been lucky enough to find someone with adiffering viewpoint and we have been able to engage in an intelligent and two way debate. The result has usually been that the other person ends up re-thinking their position, and a couple of times it has gone the other way.
I have certainly decreased my conviction of the abiotic origins of oil which I once took as most probably true. Now, due to some intelligent debate and especially the calling into question of the origins of the idea itself, the rabbit has withdrawn his support for the idea and is at least neutral about the issue at this time. Nothing has disproven the theory though and nor have the biological origins of OIL been proven, so it is premature to say for sure.
WTH The rabbit does completely sympathise with yourself at this time, for it is apparent, as it has been for a long time you have your eyes open. Sadly I fear that you have yet to realise the full extent of problems even now. I wish it were not so. It looks like that old battle between Gog and Magog is in it’s opening acts. The USA could still save the day, but to do so will require the Bushling Junta to stand up to Israel. It isn’t going to happen is it?
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 17, 2006 at 1:27 AM WTH
Looked at the Unity 08 site and I think it’s excellent. Have you joined it? Does it look like being viable in time?
It is the answer of course. The problem and they seem to anticipate it, will be dissipating the dissatisfied voters among too many candidates. As such Ralph Nader on his own was simply not organised enough and possibly before his time. I think any efforts to try and get a decent Democrap candidate in place instead is a waste of time. It will not happen. What the new candidate needs to do is campaign against the rep and dem cadidates as if they are a homogenous entity. Which they are to all intents and purposes. This way his message cannot be dissapated either by having to branch off in two versions.
I’d avoid even mentioning the other candidates by name, merely give them all a generic term and stick with that. Thus minimising and even marginalising the main party contenders. They would be standing shoulder to shoulder against one’s alternative candidate this way, thus showing their own similar colours in the process. Further compounding the message that they are the just more of the same..
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 17, 2006 at 2:21 AM Rabbit,
Unity08 is at least a hopeful sign of growing impatience with the two old parties. I’ve been down this 3rd party path twice before and will keep in touch to see what materializes.
Even if they only gain enough strength to gain access to the debates it’s possible to force change through addressing the most important issues.
There are moderates in both parties who have little or no influence but have become disenchanted with what is going on (and not going on). they may gain importance from third party or single issue groups’ pressure.
This has happened in the past in U.S. politics — integration for example.Just as the conservative and liberal labels are too simplistic, so are Republican and Democrat. The number of issues and individual experiences are too varied identify place voters as solidly as when Democrats were for workers and republicans were pro business. IMO it’s the parties which have changed beyond recognition — ordinary people still have the same needs and know when they are being BS’d 6 ways from Sunday.
A third party may serve us well even if it only lowers voters’ cynicism. (including mine)
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 17, 2006 at 3:30 PM Back from vacation-
Back to the script. Today ,7/1706, “Blowing the Whistle on Diebold” by John Ireland is posted on “In these Times.”This article reports on the lawsuit filed on 7/13/06 by Robert Kennedy, Jr. against Diebold and other computer companies alleging “fraudulent representation of (computer systems) to state election boards and the federal government that their products were “unhackable.”
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 17, 2006 at 7:40 PM Thanks Sally
I’ll look. It is more of the fraud story of course. I am fascinated to see the outcome of the Mexican election dance. It may have an effect on the USA election maybe, putting more backbone in the disenfranchised?
I could have said exactly what you just did WTH, but not better, also the third party uprisings and the point they can effect outcomes even from the fringe.
Problem being that the issues which are accumalating at street level are not solved by the small limited matters such parties can affect. One has to be in the running for the power to be able to have a say on the matters which count. We can see what even a handful of courageous senators cannot do, even though they are from predominantly the conservatives in power. The third party has to be on the scale of a popular grassroots uprising. That sort of momentum becomes possible if one can watch the swing of the pendulum closely enough and judge the moment.
It can happen, but infrequently. All the balls need to be lined up for it to work.
The most recent definition of an Oxymoron…..............Neocon Intellectual.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 18, 2006 at 3:27 AM Rabbit,
I’m afraid I see little hope of a grassroots uprising. If it were to take the form of the Hispanic demonstrations “demanding” change, I think it would only awaken people who until then had little interest and cause a knee jerk negative response.
Since the Vietnam War patriotism has had a bad connotation. Many people have shifted their loyalty from country to their favorite sports teams to avoid being seen as naive or just plain nuts. This has led to political indifference until something effects them personally and then to “special interest groups.” Voter turnout is pathetic.
IMO this fragmentation is why the two parties are so similar in behavior. The party of labor (Democrats) is split into anti/pro gay rights, racial differences, etc. The party of business (Republicans) has been diluted due to corporations covering all the bases with contributions. The sharing of the wealth has combined to form a corporate/congressional team which uses the media to spin legislation to their ends.I am doubtful an honest, democratic form of governing can deal with the volume of information, the variety of complex technical changes and the speed of each.
You and I spend a lot of time reading. When I was working 10 to 12 hours a day I could not do this. The result is that even if a representative tried his best to be informed there would be no time to act.
After computers took over my line of work I did did a self study. The first ten years on computers I spent 27.3 percent more (non-billable) time at work than the last ten before computers. (So much for the productivity advantage.) Most of my reading was tech oriented—learning what to buy and how to use the latest hardware and software.Now, picture George Bush (or any elected representative).
Any average day he has to be spending most of his time listening to summaries of what is going on nationally and globally — in all areas of concern. How much time could he possibly spend personally on the internet (if he even has a computer) or reading various views? Everything gets to him through the filter of other people’s minds. (AND they likely tell him what they think he wants to hear.)Some think we can now take instant polling to make decisions. Bad idea. Instant media reporting without concern for accuracy would bring a mob mentality to each issue.
The slowness of the democratic process, although frustrating, has been a protection against rash behavior. The feeling of immediacy is largely responsible for our current mess. It hardly matters if it was a genuine or manufactured urgency — it is a fact of life.
I can see it once again in the Iran situation. Iran can cause this much turmoil with the prospect of getting nuclear weapons, just imagine if Iran had them. If we were not bogged down in Iraq, we’d be mobilizing to go to Iran right now.
Some of the same people critical of our unilateral involvement in Iraq are now critical for a lack of it in North Korea. While holding back for a six nation conference they want us to go bilateral. Again it is the urgency factor at play.
These kinds of issues piling up can lead to WW3. Clinton cut our military by 1/3. Reserves and Guard troops have been deployed and stretched to the limit. Too few boots whether in Iraq or globally can make the use of WMD look necessary.Shit. I should have stayed in bed.
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 18, 2006 at 12:53 PM “Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?”T.S. Eliot, ‘Choruses from “The Rock”.
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 18, 2006 at 12:59 PM WTH
You forgot the Congressman’s hugendous amounts of time fund-raising, and pressing the flesh , from breakfastS to after nightfall.
Not To mention those educational world-trips,Presidential Policy-making is done with the mouth-full at odd moments, usually with microphones switched off. The Times on Bushblair “special relationship” policy-making.
Thinking of taking time out to think, at least FDR read a selection of newspapers, including one hostile. My friend Lord Patel of the internet found this on The Dictator 1933, which puts well into context the earlier stuff on Smedley versus JP Morgan, Dupont, and other villains.
NOW, WOULD you kindly stop nightmaring about EYE-RAN ?
You are far more likely to get interned as a dangerous subversive in Halliburton Displaced Persons Temporary Resettlement Facility (Stalag411-B) than nuked by Mullahs.
Who’s been makin’ all the noise about Eye-Ran ? Just Georgy-Porgy, to distract you from the hand in your pocket and the shiv approaching your back.
Posted by frog on Jul 18, 2006 at 4:20 PM Frog,
Funny live mike story — I heard it on TV last night. Comedians don’t need to hire writers, just everyday news is enough. Hmmm, maybe we now know where the White House leaks originate.
I recently read a book about the FDR/Churchill relationship. One comment related that FDR quite often liked to set up his friends and advisors with topics he knew would cause an argument — it helped him decide on a course of action.
George Washington actually chose people to serve in his administration who he knew would disagree with his views — for the good of the country. Hard to picture either of these approaches today.
I’ll make you a deal. You obsess about government spying and I’ll worry about Iran and the radical Islamists.
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 18, 2006 at 8:32 PM Now, there are “those” who won’t believe this email, saying it doesn’t prove anything because I can’t cite a major news network… (Cleveland Peace Action) But, here is an email from a local (Cleveland, OH area) guy who is working in Beirut.
You remember, that little game that’s going on over there, funded by the American taxpayer?One American’s view from inside Beirut, July 17, 2006
Editor’s note: This email was forwarded to us by former Cleveland Hts. resident Liza Frolkis, from her brother-in-law, Michael Provence, who is stranded with his family in Beirut. With the dearth of information available to Americans about what’s going on in Lebanon, I felt it would be of interest to many, to reproduce his email, unedited, on the Cleveland Peace Action website. Liza and Michael Provence graciously and eagerly agreed.
Liza Frolkis’ note: Hi, some of you may know that my sister, brother-in-law and nephew are
currently in Beirut, trying to figure out how to leave the country.
Just thought you guys would be interested in what it looks like inside
Lebanon. Michael Provence (my sister’s husband) is writing and teaches
Middle Eastern history at UC San Diego.Michael Provence’s email:
Hello folks,
I am sorry I didn’t write to many of you yesterday. I am having
internet trouble and yesterday was a tough day.I visited the travel agency Saturday morning where I learned that
flights are cancelled for the next two weeks, and that there are no
flights from Damascus. We have tickets that somebody will honor
eventually, but it makes no sense to try to leave the safety of our
campus apartment without solid plans. I asked the poor travel agent an
unkind question, by saying “what do you advise me to do?” The situation
throughout the country is quite bad, and certainly worse than the news
stations are reporting.There is no doubt that the number of killed is many times what is being
reported. All movement is unsafe and practically every village and
neighborhood has been cut off from the outside. The Israelis have
threatened to bomb traffic on the roads if anyone tries to leave.
Stefan, who you probably remember, has received permission to hire a
cab and follow behind a Swiss Embassy convoy to Damascus this morning.
The Swiss, one assumes, received permission from the Israelis to pass.
The road is knocked out in many places and who knows how they will make
the trip—it will surely take many hours. The Israelis bombed a convoy
on a Southern road yesterday afternoon and killed 17 people.I just talked to one of janitors who walked to work from the other side
of town where the bombing has been most intense. He said every 5
minutes for the last four nights the f-16s have dropped bombs on their
neighborhood. Buildings all around him have been flattened. The obvious
intention is to punish and terrorize the entire country, and there is
no actual policy or goal behind the destruction. Any travel, even
around the city, is impossible since the overpasses, bridges, and under
city road ways have been destroyed. This represents 15 years of
Lebanese post-war infrastructural reconstruction, which the Israelis
have destroyed nearly totally in four days.Cont.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 18, 2006 at 9:25 PM Part 2 - Beirut email
For the first time yesterday afternoon they really hit our side of
town. The artillery barrages and the explosions are nerve wracking.
Everybody in the building went downstairs. Our building, because it was
built by Hariri in 1992 has a shelter and is really solid. Still, we
are on a high floor and the noise is bad, even if the shells are far
away, which they always are. We went downstairs and ended up eating
with friends on the second floor. August was bouncing off the walls and
I took him upstairs to feed him. They started again, and I moved him
and his highchair into an interior hallway and fed him his dinner. He
is scared more by our reactions to the explosions than anything else.
Just then my father in law called from Berkeley, so here I am feeding
the kid, telling my father-in-law everything is fine, and trying to get
off the phone before August climbs out of his chair or another shell
lands. Peter said, “Michael you sound great, so everything must be
fine.” “Yep, you bet Peter, safe and sound, don’t worry about us—call
your congressmen, gotta go bye.” BOOM.Lor wouldn’t go back upstairs and we ended up sleeping-sort of-in a
friends’ apartment five floors down. We learned from Igrid’s sister, a
BBC reporter, that one of the explosions was a helicopter-launched
missile at the lighthouse at Ras Beirut, about a kilometer away along
the seaside. This morning seems quiet, but the University cut off my
email and internet access to my office yesterday. So I am writing from
a café right off campus.There is some talk that the Embassy may be sending an aircraft carrier
from the Red Sea to evacuate us to Cyprus. The email notice they have
sent out states that citizens will be required to sign a financial
release and apparently pay for the helicopter ride to the ship.This is pretty rich when you consider that as US taxpayers, we already
paid for the machinery that is bombing us and killing people. (F-16s
made in by GD in Fort Worth, the bombs, made by Hughes in Tucson, and
the helicopters, made by Bell in Fort Worth, and 40% of the Israeli
military budget in direct cash subsidies paid in a yearly lump sum to
the Israeli government, 30% of the TOTAL US foreign aid budget).
Furthermore, BBC reported that while Bush has continued to insist that
Israel has a right to defend itself, we have also learned that the
Israeli Air Force is running low on jet fuel and that the US will soon
be re-supplying Israel. It is very likely then, that the aircraft
carrier that comes to evacuate us will first stop, or send a fuel
tender, to stop in Haifa to offload aviation fuel. It seems a bit too
absurd, but this is how “terror” must be fought, apparently.The whole business is laced with absurdity and lies. The Israelis say
they want their two captured soldiers and they want to root out
Hizballah. They claim the destruction of the infrastructure is designed
to limit the movement of the captured soldiers. But the soldiers may be
held 1.5 km from the border and the IDF would never be able to find and
release them by military action. Everyone knows this. They still have
not tried to move into Lebanon by land, since the political cost of
another land invasion of Lebanon makes every Israeli politician piss
his pants. Hizballah controls the south and represents approximately
40% of the Lebanese population and gains additional support with every
Israeli bomb. Bombing from the air is cost free in domestic political
terms as the Americans have shown.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 18, 2006 at 9:38 PM Beirut Email - part 3.
Furthermore, there is, of course, a back story. In 1982 the IDF invaded
Lebanon “To root out the Terrorist infrastructure,” as General Sharon
said at the time, which meant the PLO in those days. The IDF killed
30,000-40,000 people, carpet bombed Beirut, and displaced most of the
population of the Shiite south, who came as refugees to the Southern
Suburbs where they now live and where the Israeli bombardments are
heaviest. Hizballah was born in those slums as a resistance movement to
Israel’s occupation and a political party representing the Shiite
populations. Two Israeli governments fell as a result of the Lebanon
adventure.Since that time, and even before, the Israeli government has captured
(or kidnapped if you prefer) and held thousands of Syrian, Lebanese and
Palestinian prisoners. One of the prisoners in question, one of only
three Lebanese now held, has been held since he was captured as a 17
year old in 1979. One of the others was captured only last year.
Hizballah has staked its political legitimacy on its ability to
challenge Israel and to secure the release of prisoners—both actions no
other Arab government or party has ever been able to do.Cross border operations have recently involved both Hizballah and
Israel and last month the Lebanese Intelligence service arrested two or
three Lebanese who had been part of an Israeli assassination squad in
Lebanon, responsible for several recent killings and car bombs. Three
or four months ago two teenaged fisherman were killed by the Israeli
navy in their open fishing boat near the border.The mindless and bleak imperatives of the “War on Terror,” shared by
the Israelis and the Americans make any kind of climb-down, diplomacy,
or even conditional recognition of contradictory political positions
almost impossible. There is no doubt that Olmert and Bush would like a
way out. For Hizballah, the argument that Israel and the US are and
will remain the greatest threat to all Arabs has been proven, and the
anti-Syrian, pro-Euro-
American Lebanese governments has been decisively and probably fatally
weakened. Still, the assault cannot continue at this level and will
have to end soon-how remains the question.We really don’t want to leave Lebanon on a US aircraft carrier, but
we’ll see what happens. Since we planned to fly to France two days ago,
we need to communicate with the travel agent so as not to be forced to
buy a second hugely expensive airplane ticket. The Israelis are bombing
the shit out of the poorest areas of the country, and the worst places
are certainly where there are no reporters or television cameras, but
they will not bomb the American University campus, and we will remain
safe and sound, albeit a little frazzled. The pro-American Lebanese
Prime Minister lives right here too, and we can see his bedroom window
from our bedroom window. It is safer to wait and stay put, which is
what we plan to do. It is hard to be inactive, but that, of course, is
why you have a three page letter before you.If you called your congressman to call for ceasefire yesterday, please
call again today.Love, Michael
Finis…... peace and patience. Thanks.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 18, 2006 at 9:39 PM WTH points out
You and I spend a lot of time reading. When I was working 10 to 12 hours a day I could not do this.
This very idea occurs to me often. The frustration of trying to discuss with people who have not had as I have an average of ten hours a day for five years, absorbing information is quite overwhelming. Especially the time spent filling in the gaps of history which are not normally included in the public consumption means that no real discussion is possible since it would be like someone discussing the bible with a seminary scholar, after only having read a one page summary. It is bad enough even on the net where few enough have spent much time reading, but at least the information is readily available for reference.
For example the number of people who still parrot the historically and politically farcical idea that Islam is a threat to the west. The poor little chickens try to lecture the rabbit about the dangers of Hezbollah and the historical rights and struggle of Israel, as if either actually existed. The simplistic utterly absurd analyses of international events etc.
There is certainly mis-information, and apathy. Problem is that this extends to the entire outlook of people caught up in the paradigm. They are not keeping up with the real news, and they don’t even have an accurate understanding of the background to what they do get. It is not a failure by the people though, I see it as deliberate manipulation by those in power. Much effort and money has gone into reducing the population to this level of ignorance and mis-informed state. It didn’t happen by itself.
Obviously anyone who is watching the news and reading the newspaper each day thinks they are informed. Yet these same people are completely convinced that Israel is responding to Hamas kidnapping a soldier and then Hzbollah doing the same. In their minds the current growing conflict began with Hamas and Hezbollah atacking Israel. The truth is in black and white for anyone who has time to sek it.
Israel has planned this for a long time. Such an operation has had months of planning. Israel has never ceased killing and kidnapping Palestinians for the last year and a half while Hamas has held a ceasefire. The current round of hostilities were started when an Israeli gunboat shelled a picknicking Palestinian family on a Gaza beach and then massacred a family with a missile a few days later.
But how would all those psuedo-informed apes ever know? The problem is the media. The media as the fourth estate was always a winner, until it lost its independence.
Personally I blame the corporate controlled media above all for making it virtually impossible for people to be informed. The few attempts which have been made to get alternative candidiates or political ideas into the mainstream, runs into the gatekeeping media. They destroyed effectively the last two rising alternative parties here in Oz.
WTH
There is no evidence that Iran is or was trying to obtain Nuclear weapons, though thanks to the threats by the USA and Israel they would be foolish not to be doing so now. Besides which whom says they may not own Nukes? Israel has more than 20, and they are all illegal. The USA has broken the non-proliferation treaties hands down. Neither of these countries has any moral right to comment frankly. You just rewarded India for breaking the non-proliferation rules (OK.. INDIA was never even a member.) Does the word hypocrisy mean anything to you WTH?
Accusations by thoroughly biased intelligence agencies aside and some of their attempts to frame up Iran have been uncovered as well. Iran has not ever attacked the USA, or Israel, that is a fact.
America shot down an Iranian Airliner, in Iranian air space, a few years ago. No apology was ever even given. Would the Iranians have been justified in shooting down an American airliner thereafter? Well they did not of course, being a reasonable people. I wonder what would have been the result if things has been the other way around?
Let us assume that the USA and or Israel now bombs Iran, destroying some facilities, and killing some Iranians. Will the Iranians be justified in striking back at one or both of you? Would they be unjust in sinking a few of your naval ships?
Despite the accusations by biased and notoriously unreliable intelligence agencies that Syria is behind Hezbollah, anyone with half a brain knows Hezbollah started as a response to Israeli aggression in Lebanon. The support of Syria and Iran is not unreasonable, whatever form it takes. What do you suppose the support of Israel by the USA is otherwise? Or what about the US support for the Iranian terror group MKO? Dude you cannot claim there is anything wrong with Iran or Syria supporting their friends and allies, while you are the leaders of support for various unpalateable organistaions and governments. What about US support for the Saudi scumbags?
Now despite the accusations no actual proof of Syrian involvment is forthcoming at this point, or we would know about it. Let as assume Israel soon attacks Syria, bombing buildings, electricity, bridges and hospitals etc as it is doing in Lebanon. Will Syria be justified in strikinmg back at Israel in this event? If not why not? Since Syria and Iran have a mutual defence pact, would there then be anything wrong with Iran striking back at Israel as well? If not why not?
Now if your argument is that Syria is a legitimate target because they support Hezbollah, then perhaps you will be so good as to admit that the USA will also be a legitimate target by Syria and Iran, due to its support for Israel. Double standards WTH, double standards are the only way you can maintain the current farcical paradigm being force fed to the masses.
Apart from Americans and Israelis, are there any other races in the world who try to argue it is OK fo them to attack anyone, but the other is wrong if they defend themselves? There isn’t by the way, so how do you explain this anomaly? Actually you already did in you last posts. You simply fail to extrapolate the woeful situation you describe and relate it to the current insanity being perpetrated in your name.
WTH please have a wander among the information on US hypocrsiy presented here. Then come and tell us about the wicked support of Hamas and Hezbollah by Syria and Iran.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 19, 2006 at 1:12 AM Thanks for the letter Sally.
Rabbit watching situation daily from the following. Electronic Intifada.
We are getting much more balanced TV coverage in Oz on the National broadcasters as usual of course, and most Aussies are light years beyond Americans in understanding the reality in the ME. The pictures of destruction and death in Lebanon are showing nightly and the few pictures of apparent damage to Israel is laughable in comparison. The gutless blood drinking Zionist scuz are of course rushing off to the bombshelters just because a few fireworks landed in their city. Meanwhile our grotesque little insect of a PM is being as much of a Zionist whore as he can get away with.
Of course WTH probably sees Elctronic Intifada as being a terrorist organisation. It means resistance, uprising, not “takeover the west” WTH.
The descriptions in the letter Sally gives us probably don’t move him much, they are all evil terrorists aren’t they WTH? Islamic fundamentalists. Or perhaps you believe the Islamic fundamentalists are the cause, for standing up against Israeli aggression, it is their fault that Israel is now slaughtering civilians and destroying a counry which has struggled valiantly to rebuild after the last Israeli aggression.
Sorry to pick on you WTH, but honestly the frustration with supporters of a hypocritical stance is getting to be hard to take, out in the real world.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 19, 2006 at 2:06 AM <b> DEAR OLD WTH<>
WHO shared with you the Good Story of Nathaniel Fick ?
THAT should have started a small cog whirring in your brain that WE TWO were, are , on the same planet ?
I’ll make you a deal. You obsess about government spying and I’ll worry about Iran and the radical Islamists
NASTY DISHONEST INSULTING STUFF. WTH. , unworthy of you.
You accuse me of “obsessing” about Government Spying.
What would it take to prove to you that “GS” has existed for a VERY long time ?
Is the Congressional Record good enough, or would you like something stronger; from another Planet , perhaps ?
Since I know damn well the shit is already in the Congressional Record, stuff such as the KERRY REPORT, how come you are not informed ?
And later the CIA Inspector admitted his guys had been drug- trading. No ref now, about 1996.
Do you really want me to go and look for the FBI file on Howard Zinn ?
His Peoples History of the US is on reading lists down the road.., here.He was a real traitor, bombardier USAF WW2.;. A great contrast to Dubya.
About time you straightened your ideas up. Right fucking up.
I consider myself your friend. You are a decent man, as i am. You say i"m “obsessing”. i too do believe you are “obsessing” !
Look at it this way . I was brought up with IRA Terra, financed by extremists in the USA—Armalites delivered and used. On british soldiers, some from my Regiment.
That was OK until 11/9/2001.
Posted by frog on Jul 19, 2006 at 2:25 AM I’m gonna look for the Howard Zinn book this weekend….As far as spys go….does the name J. Edgar Hoover mean anything….
Recently , in florida….Liberty City of all places…7 MUSLIM MEN WERE ARRESTED FOR PLANNING A TERRORIST ATTACK….the target was the Sears building in Chicago….5 of the 7 are US citizens….caught by an informer….
These guys had nothing….no guns…no bombs ...no cell phones…no money for air fare….nothing….the informer ” spy , according to your tastes ” ...offered to pay for everything…...arrested…charged….and held….with no real evidence , but the heresay of this ” informer “...
7 blackmen in a rough neighborhood…no guns…but they’re terrorists…
Now Bushy boy said he wasn’t spying on the US citizenry…and I’m sure most amerikans think….7 poor blackmen…muslim…must have been do’in something wrong…but the raid , turned up no evidence….so why are these men being held…and how did they come to be in this situation…...A fugus among us….a Spy…a Gov’t owned and operated snitch…a paided stroolly….someone of no or low integrity…
What’s the old saying…about you can lead a horse to water….these guys may have been led to water….but had no cup to drink with…..
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 19, 2006 at 3:25 AM Frog
The FDR story from 1933 is fitting well enough into the picture I’m forming of the politics of the time, and is consistent with so much else like Prescott Bush etc. Not to mention the ease with which many of the former Nazis were repatriated back to the USA after the war, upon the “excuse” of the communist threat. I was taken with one thing FDR said The War Against the Emergency. So these wars against concepts have been going on for a while in the USA?
The War On Terror ............. WOT
The War On Drugs ................... WOD (or is it WAD?)
War On Poverty….................WOPI guess we are waiting for the War On Global Warming? WOG
Redhorse I want to know what went wrong with the raid and capture of these Muslim men? Why were some of them at least not shot? Hopefully they are now being held in maximum security in stress positions with electrodes attached to their sacks? It is far too early to suggest they were not a threat to our freedoms and democracy. Unless they have been roughed up, and humiliated and waterboarded and f**ked with the broomhandle occassionally, for a few years, we cannot be certain they were not planning something. You know that so why do you hate America and help terrorists by being reasonable?
The Gloves are off dude. We’re not giving in to these terrorists anymore. For too long they’ve been trampling all over our freedoms and burning the flag and murdering us as we go about our peaceful business. No more are we going to give them four star motels with chaufeured limousines and expedited travel arangements, from now on those terra-ists are going to learn what it is to threaten democracy and freedom.
We’re going to kill every last one of them ragheads, and bring demcoracy and freedom to them. Yessir.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 19, 2006 at 6:31 AM Frog aint you glad that you don’t have to admit that this bloke is your president.
You know it, I know it and the American people know it. But everyone is afraid to say it. They say it privately, but people are afraid of saying it publicly because you will be branded as a liberal, elite, intellectual snob. But believe me, you don’t have to be an intellectual to see how painfully stupid our president is.
Just look at the conversation he is having with world leaders at the G-8 summit. Mikes picked up the causal talk between the world leaders. Forget that Bush appears to have three sandwiches in his mouth while talking. Forget that he calls out to the Prime Minister of Britain as if he is Flounder in “Animal House.” Forget that he uses profanity. I don’t give a shit about those things.
I thought it was ridiculous that people made fun of George H. W, Bush for vomiting on the Japanese Prime Minister. What was he going to do? He had to puke, so he puked. It happens to the best of us, and more importantly, has nothing to do with his intelligence or how capable he is as a leader.
But his son’s verbal vomit does have a lot to do with his ability to lead this country and the world. What I found to be the most damning is the least quoted part of Bush’s comments. As you read this transcript, remember that this is not a small child talking, but the President of the United States of America:
The camera is focused elsewhere and it is not clear whom Bush is talking to, but possibly Chinese President Hu Jintao, a guest at the summit.
“Bush: Gotta go home. Got something to do tonight. Go to the airport, get on the airplane and go home. How about you? Where are you going? Home?”
“Bush: This is your neighborhood. It doesn’t take you long to get home. How long does it take you to get home?”
Reply is inaudible.
“Bush: Eight hours? Me too. Russia’s a big country and you’re a big country.”
At this point, the president seems to bring someone else into the conversation.
“Bush: It takes him eight hours to fly home.”
He turns his attention to a server.
“Bush: No, Diet Coke, Diet Coke.”
He turns back to whomever he was talking with.
“Bush: It takes him eight hours to fly home. Eight hours. Russia’s big and so is China.”
Russia’s big and so is China??????? This guys sounds like a third grader. Do you know anyone who would have a conversation like this with their neighbor, let alone a business associate, let alone a world leader? Who’s proud to know that Russia is big and so is China?
Can anyone now credibly claim that Bush is secretly working on a master plan behind the scenes and that he’s just playing cowboy for the cameras? I hope the master plan doesn’t involve figuring out how long it takes to get to China.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/the-ugly-truth-our-presi_b_25257.htm ml
WTH I agree that this isn’t really very funny on the whole, but he has given us some laughs this guy, THE BUSHLING., that he has.
I forgot his old man chundered on the Japanese PM too. Crikey, those were the good old days eh?
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 19, 2006 at 8:51 AM Frog,
I don’t know if this is the case in France, but over here wherever I go I am eavesdropping on a lot of personal conversations. I go to the grocery and hear some woman gossiping about a neighbor. On a bus I get the guy ahead breaking up with his girl. In the news people express wonder at all the “leaks” in business and gov. — Hey, people, go read about WW2 security forget this great new tech crap!
It doesn’t matter if I am reading a rightwing or leftwing source — everybody thinks the government should be responsible for “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” — Until something bad happens, then they should not have been involved — Or, should have known… should have gotten involved sooner… or caused it to happen… or…Right — they should know, but not listen in. Save us from living below sea level, having gone to likely war zones, keep us from making stupid investments, not allow movie producers to make anti ethnic leaning movies, stop women from being ridiculed for pay…
What makes me a conservative I guess is my belief that individuals need to take responsibility for their own actions and decisions as much as possible. I don’t want any level of bureaucracy involved in my life any more than necessary to maintain society.Over the course of time nations do a lot of stupid things. There are many inconsistencies and contradictions. Even individuals do this, but a nation is not an individual and to put believe in hindsight a multi decade on-going plan is at work is not credible to me.
Much of history, if taken in context, reveals why it may have seemed like a good idea at the time.
———————————& ——————-
Sallyb,The “little game over there” has been going on for centuries and there is no reasoning with either side which will stop it. Seems to be a similar story for people on the Israeli side of the border.
Of course everything is the fault of the U.S. We fund it. We arm it. We want it. And should have had a motel available somewhere to deliver (also at taxpayer expense, now) 25,000 people who were there by choice.
Probably not a good place to take a young family with all those bombs, shells and rockets blasting away every now and then. Why do you think it is called the “holey land”?
———————————& ———
Rabbit,What makes you think war should be fair? This is a war no matter how many media types keep asking if it is. (If it isn’t one… it’s missing a damn good chance.)
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 19, 2006 at 2:34 PM Rabbit doesn’t suggest war should be fair WTH. You miss my point entirely.
I am merely pointing out that if you are going to eliminate the rules for one side then you can forget about dictating them to the other.
If its OK for Israel and America to kill anyone, anyway they like, then it is entirely reasonable that their victims hit them back in whatever way they can.
Which means WTH that there are no terrorists. It also means that two countries with the bulk of the worlds weapons between them, and who show no compunctions about using any of them at the drop of a hat, and who have disregarded more conventions on human rights than all others, are the two most dangerous and rogue nations on earth.
Your claim of people in the ME having been fighting forever and suggesting the problem is insoluble is to ignore the fact that neither the Palestinians nor anybody else in the ME is requiring Israel to do anything except agree to the UN demand for pre 1967 borders and stop stealing more land. So many people are sagely making such ludicrous staements, pompously pontificating upon issues with no basis for making the claims of the Arab nations they are. You keep on misrepresenting the Arab and Muslim causes, you keep on repeating lies about what their leaders say. This Muslim Fundamentalist thing you have in mind, is mostly in your own heads. You are the victims of a big fraud. For example this crazy claim that Armadinejad threatened to wipe Israel out which s currently the favorite ranting mantra of dittoheads.
I am telling you categorically that he did not threaten Israel at all, that his words were taken way out of context and twisted, do you wish to argue with me for I can have his speech in front of you in a few minutes?
It is the same with claiming he is a Holocaust denier. He doesn’t deny anything about the holocaust but merely suggests that some details of what happened need clarification. No scholarly research has ever been done, and those who try today are being imprisoned. That should be a smoking gun that something is wrong. What sort of truth needs to ban all discussion? What kind of truth needs to imprison people for merely questioning it? For a start the number of victims was not six million, not even close from the information available. Most important though and it is the point Armadinejad is making, is that the holocaust was European, why do the Arabs and Muslims inherit the fault for it, as it seems?
Show me the most recent claim from an Arab leader which was threatening to Israel? In fact can you show us any reference by a Hezbollah or Hamas leader in the last year, before Israel got greedy again the other day, in which they do anything except express an intention to defend their people and land? Not take anything from Israel, just to defend their land and people? Can you WTH? I don’t think you can because there are not any threats to destroy Israel or indeed anybody. All these two groups exist for is as a defence against Zionist aggression.
How the hell can a mouse threaten an elephant anyway?
You’re right WTH, War isn’t fair. But the USA isn’t better, fairer, more honorable or more right than anybody else either and the role of global policeman isn’t one which was actually being sought for.
So what the hell are you doing in the Middle East, killing and being killed, making enemies and destroying countries. What the hell are you doing there? Stealing Oil and doing the bidding of a nasty little terrorist state by killing as many Arabs as possible.
That’s it and trying to dress up that pig isn’t going to make it any more attractive.
By the way taking responsibility for oneself and not expecting the government to be involved in much of our daily lives is not conservative even if that is what you call it. The labels no longer mean what they did, the Bush gang is the conservative party bloke and they are not on the same page. Failed government agencies isn’t the same as fewer you know.
I am completely against government regulations, social security in dole form, and taxes. I believe that the government should have nothing to do with our daily lives, having as I do much faith in the intelligence and ability of people to govern themselves. AND I am not a conservative.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 19, 2006 at 4:04 PM WTH what would be wrong with the POTUS acting like a world class leader and not a Zionist scumbag, and demanding that Israel stop its over the top aggression immediately, and allow for humanitarian efforts on the ground?
Do you have a problem with people going about their ordinary business do you, you think they shouldn’t have gotten in the way of Israels war? How thoughtless of them WTH, to get in the way of a country who wants to drop bombs and missiles. It certainly serves them right, they can’t go giving their tax dollars to arm Israel and then expect Israel to show them any respect. That would be too much. Hey yeh if a country needs to have a war,they need to have a war.
Hezbollah captured two IDF soldiers, I can see that meant that Israel had to cut loose with Ships Bombers, Helicopters and cruise missiles, “Immediately”. No time to waste. Those stupid Aussies and Americans who are visiting Lebanon shouldn’t be there it serves them right. For sure WTH. Wars have right of way. Sure do WTH. That’s just the way it is. Yes WTH I can see where you are coming from. Also where you are going to, but you don’t want to know about that do you?
Maybe the great USA isn’t capable of doing anything except bullying small weak countries is my guess.
Bush would wet himself at the thought of standing up to Israel, any American politician would of course.
Just don’t boast to me about being a great or noble country. The USA is Israels Bitch and everybody knows.
Of course the government is taking you at your word WTH, don’t worry they are not mollycoddling those ungrateful Americans who dared to be in Lebanon when Israel decided to trash the place again. Those American citizens are expected to pay Uncle Sam to be evacuated. and quite right too isn’t it WTH?
As soon as the US ship is finished unloading free bombs and fuel for the Israeli military so they don’t have to pause in their destruction, the Navy will be right along to pick up any Americans who have paid for their tickets. Apparently dead Americans won’t be riding free either.
Do you think they dock the last pay of soldiers killed in Iraq to pay for the ride home? Seems likely I’d say. They do have to pay for their own uniforms these days after all.
Things sure do sound like they are humming along in that great and free nation. Do you think we can have some of that democracy soon too? No thanks! For some reason our soldiers get their uniforms and their weapons for free, our government is aiming to evacuate our citizens from Lebanon for free (We have 25,000 citizens in Lebanon). We also have universal healthcare, being the decadent and socialist creatures we are down in Oz..
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 19, 2006 at 4:21 PM HORSE fed Bureau of Intimidation
WTH—open your mind and have a read too ? You have noticed that I follow up your links.
At that point, the FBI also inquired who the author of that report was, and asked that an investigation begin on the author. Since I had written it, I was interested in the FBI’s interest in the author. In fact, I sent away for whatever information the FBI had on me, through the Freedom of Information Act. I became curious, I guess. I wanted to test myself because if I found that the FBI did not have any dossier on me, it would have been tremendously embarrassing and I wouldn’t have been able to face my friends. But, fortunately, there were several hundred pages of absolutely inconsequential material. Very consequential for the FBI, I suppose, but inconsequential for any intelligent person.
I’m talking about the FBI and U.S. democracy because here we have this peculiar situation that we live in a democratic country-everybody knows that, everybody says it, it’s repeated, it’s dinned into our ears a thousand times, you grow up, you pledge allegiance, you salute the flag, you hail democracy, you look at the totalitarian states, you read the history of tyrannies, and here is the beacon light of democracy. And, of course, there’s some truth to that. There are things you can do in the United States that you can’t do many other places without being put in jail.
But the United States is a very complex system. It’s very hard to describe because, yes, there are elements of democracy; there are things that you’re grateful for, that you’re not in front of the death squads in El Salvador. On the other hand, it’s not quite a democracy. And one of the things that makes it not quite a democracy is the existence of outfits like the FBI and the CIA. Democracy is based on openness, and the existence of a secret policy, secret lists of dissident citizens, violates the spirit of democracy. There are a lot of other things that make the U.S. less than a democracy. For instance, what happens in police stations, and in the encounters between police and citizens on the street. Or what happens in the military, which is a kind of fascist enclave inside this democracy. Or what happens in courtrooms which are supposedly little repositories of democracy, yet the courtroom is presided over by an emperor who decides everything that happens in a courtroom -what evidence is given, what evidence is withheld, what instructions are given to the jury, what sentences are ultimately meted out to the guilty and so on.
So it’s a peculiar kind of democracy. Yes, you vote. You have a choice. Clinton, Bush and Perot! It’s fantastic. Time and Newsweek. CBS and NBC. It’s called a pluralist society. But in so many of the little places of everyday life in which life is lived out, somehow democracy doesn’t exist. And one of the creeping hands of totalitarianism running through the democracy is the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Posted by frog on Jul 19, 2006 at 4:46 PM WTH and Rabbit
WTH—-What makes me a conservative I guess is my belief that individuals need to take responsibility for their own actions and decisions as much as possible. I don’t want any level of bureaucracy involved in my life any more than necessary to maintain society.
Hmmm—- a question of how you define what is “necessary ” , because we can all agree with your statement…. but then find later that we disagree on the deets.
Some things exasperate me extremely—the same rules apply to me , living 200m from a neighbour as to someone living 10meters !
If I want to make a new window, I have to go through the same goddam rigmarole as them .The Grover Norquist FREEDUMB argument is to privatise everything, it seems, and the Globalistas want to insert Competition and “Free” Markets all over .
To me, all that will result in all of us, planetwide, getting seriously serially screwed !
Rabbit tksvm for the TPM site—“They have Muck, We have Rakes”—- I like it.
it lead me on to The Sunshine (disinfectant !) Foundation which should particularly interest WTH and SALLY ..
Posted by frog on Jul 19, 2006 at 5:05 PM Here in the U.S. of A, I fear we threw “noble”
out with the baby and the bath water.
Some of us will admit to it,
but generally it is one of those
dark, dirty, family secrets.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 19, 2006 at 5:58 PM The question is, “What is ‘necessary’?”
Sorry, schoolmarm clicked in.
Merriam Webster online says the word “necessary” can be an adjective or a noun-
1. a : of an inevitable nature : INESCAPABLE b (1) : logically unavoidable (2) : that cannot be denied without contradiction c : determined or produced by the previous condition of things d : COMPULSORY
2 : absolutely needed : REQUIRED
———————————& ——————————— 8212;—————————
It also provides a third definition, “necessary condition” which states:1 : a state of affairs that must prevail if another is to occur : PREREQUISITE
2 : a proposition whose falsity assures the falsity of another
———————————& ——————————— 8212;——————————̵ 12;——————-
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Forgive a personal analogy and a step back in time.
Back in the 70s our family’s personal fortune took a fortuitous turn, replacing a stringent past. We found ourselves able to indulge in things we had customarily deemed unnecessary. We would jokingly “justify” a self-indulgent purchase as something “needed,” knowing damned well it was an indulgence. That lifestyle and mindset can become addictive.Now, I know that is low-man-on-the-totem-pole thinking but I do believe there is a “justified thinking” that prevails which tries to impose the idea of what is necessary clear up to the top of the totem pole, the grander scheme of ideologies in politics and world affairs.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 19, 2006 at 8:12 PM Frog,
“You accuse me of “obsessing” about Government Spying.”
First thing this morning I sent an apology and I don’t see it on here or on the 9/11 thread. I was just pulling your leg with the “deal” dividing the worry issues. As soon as I sent it I thought I should have added a smiley face or something, but I still cannot edit and it would not let me back into the discussion.
So, once again — sorry. I apologize for the smart ass remarks.
——————————— ;—————-
This is the only site where I am having these problems. Well, I guess the computers are just having a bit of fun at my expense for my distrusting them. They lie, cheat at elections and now they are refusing to accept my comments.
I think I may have told you the story of my taking a crashed hard drive to a rifle range and shooting it with my 1873 rifle.
I’m giving fair notice to this computer right now… See that drive in the corner over there with the two .45 cal. holes in it? You could be next!
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 19, 2006 at 11:54 PM WTH
Rabbit also saw the post of which you speak, it was up for a while, and I was online when you put it up..
Here’s something which I learnt the hard way. The new edit function is such that if one edits a post, and then returns to the page later, without having refreshed the whole page, you will only see the unedited version. Problem then if you edit again, is that you edit from the original posting of course. Thus altering the actual downloaded version back in the process.
Always refresh the page before posting or editing just in case is my solution. Now no more problem, but before that I lost a couple of posts “in the wash”.
I agree with Frog and Sally about necessity. The definitions of Necessary all work for me Sally. I think I could better have said I’m against all government interference which isn’t necessary…..No that is still open to interpretation. Big discussion on its own.
For example we have the Israelis claiming its necessary to kill Lebanese and bomb their infrastructure. Let’s just say Rabbit believes in MINIMAL government interference with our daily lives.
More flip flopping voting machines. Not looking good.
WTH you must think positive thoughts about your computer. It helps with my own setup, always has. Electrons are part and parcel of everything, your thoughts are electrons even.
If you want the rabbit can give you a good recipe for an explosive floppy disc which can blow the guts out of the inside of your tower? Good and sneaky way to kill a computer, hard drive and all. Shooting them is so, John Wayne.
This is a commentary about the Bushling’s mental state with the G8 antics included, worth a look.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 20, 2006 at 12:47 AM WTH-
You’re too funny. You sound like my youngest, Jill.
She got so fed-up with a printer that had always given
trouble, took it out on their deck and beat the pulp out of
it with a hammer.Then she worried that anyone watching her might have
concern for the baby she’s about to deliver, “What kind
of mother will she be?” lol.At least you both are taking it out on things-
and not people.Cheers!!!!
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 20, 2006 at 3:19 AM Rabbit admits taking a photocopier to a tip and beating it to scrap with a sledgehammer when in his copier technician days. Sometimes violence is the only way to deal with something. But the taking out of such impulses on inanimate objects shows what is the purpose of violence. SELF gratification.
I forgot to mention it before but WTH you should not go around labelling everybody Islamic Fundamentalists just because the USA or Israel is killing them. It tends to weaken your argument by dilution if such a label is too broad in its application. Hezbollah isn’t fundamentalist though it supports the idea of a democratically elected Islamic state. Israel is supposedly a democratically elected Jewish state.
Hezbollah is not an Islamic Fundamentalist organisation by any stretch of the imagination. It is a social, educational and health organisation with a military wing. It is a direct result of the last time Israel was massacring the Lebanese, and the Lebanese grassroots resistance became organised. It is by cultural co-incidence an Islamic organisation, but Fundamentalist, not a chance. Look it up. They do not have the sort of restrictions on Women which one equates with Fundamentalism for a start. Lebanese Shias are not the same as Iranian or even Turkish Shias.
There is more than just the two paradigms WTH. It isn’t always the white hat versus the black hat. It isn’t even as the white hat versus the many black hats. You need to stop looking past the hats you imagine everybody is wearing and consider that all people are a product of their country, their environment and their religion in equal amounts. Which means we are all as different as we are all the same. Lebanese Shias have formed into an evolving militant/social support network as a reaction to Israeli bombings, massacres and rapes over more than twenty years occupation. They happen to have as all resistance movements tend to do, outlasted the occupiers and evolved into poltical forces as well. A very similar explanation is to be given for Hamas and for the PLO in it’s time of inception.
Neither group is inherantly Islamic beyond a fervent adherence to their religion which is pretty average by Islamic society standards. They are not linked along with some big conspiracy of Islamic Fundamentalist Shia Society. The Sunni resistance in Iraq is not any different in their goals or methods than these groups either, but they are not even SHIA. If your only definition of Islamic Fundamentalist ends up being any muslims we are killing, your “obsession” begins to lose its form.
Since it becomes apparent they are not seeking to destroy your christian freedoms and make your women wear veils. Exactly what is it about this Islamic Fundamentalist Demand to get off their land which scares you?
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 20, 2006 at 4:40 AM Sallyb,
I should show your story about your daughter to my wife. Any time I tell my hard drive execution story she cringes. (She worries more about what people will think about the nutty guy she married.) But I was in the middle of a big rush job, on a weekend when the power went off in our block. On reboot two hours later my computer said, “This is not a Macintosh hard drive.”
The cost for an “expert” to try to retrieve the info was $600/hr with no guaranty. I was able to reconstruct the art from a black and white copy I had run off the day before and could then buy a new hard drive twice the capacity for about a third of what that one had cost — so no more Mr. Nice Guy. Bang! Bang!
——————————— ;-
Sallyb and Rabbit,No question “necessary” a poor qualification term. I’ll go along with Rabbit’s, “...MINIMAL government interference with our daily lives.”
———————————& ——
Rabbit,
Thanks for the EDIT tip, but I think my problem is because I’m on a Mac and too old a system and browser. PCs have us so outnumbered that few sites cater to us.My son used to do website design and it was very frustrating to see how different a design could turn out depending on the equipment used at the receiving end. I haven’t tried the EDIT feature lately because it has locked up everything a couple of times.
I am ganging up messages now in case I can’t get back for a while.
Glad you saw my apology posting, but have no idea why it disappeared.Life is taking up too much of my time.
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 20, 2006 at 4:51 PM WTH-
I understand what you’re saying about cost proficiency. I’ve experienced buying a printer for the same price as replacing the ink cartridge in one that had become problematic. I try to be “green” and not fill up the landfills, etc., but cost is a viable consideration.I use to be more conscious of what others think but I came to the realization that I basically live my life trying to “do no harm” (I do have a slingshot of rebuttals for unfairness…) so I was just not going to worry about that any more. I’ve listened to the counselor at school say she just loves my pragmatic approach to things, because I’m real and just don’t let things bother me.
I’ll admit that I would trade some of that stoic pragmatism for a renewed zest and vitality enjoyed in youth. But, I won’t hold my breath on that one! lol. My mother used to say it’s the spirit of Popeye the Sailor Man, “I yam what I yam”
Enjoy yourself. Beat up computer gear if and when it’s needed.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 20, 2006 at 5:40 PM HECK
1873 .45cal = might be trapdoor springfield—Custer special
winchester 1873 made that year = .44calI guess you have a W mod73 chambered .45cal . but not made in 1873.
No hearsay or imprecision around here. .....................^^.............................
some pinko liberals knows their gunz…... (smiley face here).
Yee Haw—amazon just coughed up——
Murder in Samarkand
The little red book of labour sleaze
Occupational Hazards—my time governing in iraq
Enemy Combatant
Tthe revenge of gaiaBliar & co tried to ban the first, cut out bits, but craigmurray stuck them all on the net, 4th july, so I have the whole book..
SALLY
kmarkx over on the Diebold /rfk jr thing is no chicken either, but full of oomph .
“unspeak” sounds a good book on the corruption of discourse…
Posted by frog on Jul 20, 2006 at 6:29 PM WTH
And there i was, just adding a little innocent edit-something to a disquisition upon the 1873 .45cal subject..
1873 .45cal may be trapdoor springfield
1873 winchester is .44calBut I guess you have a W mod 73 chambered .45 built later ?
Just received Murder in Samarkand, which Bliar tried to ban.
Yee Haw ! ..........................and smileys
The story on that is that I tried to edit-post a link to my 1229, which then came up “Action denied Blacklisted Item” and my old post disappeared .First Time;
It wuz the “Sexually harassed ” bit .
Posted by frog on Jul 20, 2006 at 7:05 PM How might the Israelis and their Bush-Cheney allies escalate to a Middle East regional war? A linear scenario is that, after further bombardment of Israel by rockets allegedly made in Iran and allegedly delivered with the connivance of Syria, the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) lashes out at Damascus and Teheran. Syrian and Iranian retaliatory measures would then be seized upon by the Bush-Cheney regime as a pretext for US entry into the war. Here the US would be openly dragged into war as the tail of the Israeli dog. But this is a deeply flawed scenario, sure to generate huge waves of resentment against the Israelis and their US partners as the body bags begin to come home.
False flag scenarios would be entirely more effective from the point of view of the war planners. CNN and MSNBC coverage this Saturday morning has been stressing the situation of the 25,000 Americans now stuck in Lebanon. These Americans are being invited to register with the US consulates for possible evacuation. The State Department and the US military have been remarkably slow to begin such an evacuation.
One possible provocation scenario to bring the US into the war is that a helicopter carrying US citizens being evacuated out of Lebanon is hit by a missile and destroyed, killing all on board. The missile might be fired by the Israelis or by their allies among the fascist Lebanese Phalangists. The Israelis would announce that the helicopter had been destroyed by Hezbollah, opening the way for a hysterical campaign by Fox News and the rest of the neocon mass brainwashing apparatus to secure an early US attack on Syria and Iran.
An alternative: a group of Arabic-speaking Israeli Mossad or Shin Beth special forces, or a group of Phalangist militia round up a few dozen Americans and machine-gun them to death. The controlled media then blame the massacre on Hezbolllah, thus stampeding the US population into war. WEBSTER TARPLEY
It’s happened before.
All aboard for the USS Liberty. & i’m back in germany. ?
Posted by frog on Jul 20, 2006 at 8:15 PM frog…Bush and unwilling friend….that looks like a sexual harrasment beef…to me…..
Not to long ago…the Mrs moved out of the White House because lover boy…was shlack’in… Ms. Rice….Once while she was Natl Sec Adv…..Ms. Rice referred to Ol’ Deadwood as her husband…..Now the Horse has no problem with romance, but something about that imagine….riuns my apetite…I know ol’ boy got some money…but that’s just nasty….Now real men don’t gossip….but then again….real men don’t skip out on military service….and then 30 years later…send a bunch of newly weaned babies…too invade another nation…..
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 21, 2006 at 1:13 AM This picture says a lot. Advice from a less encumbered age.
Warm Moist Muffins! yum yum How innocent the 50s and 60s is the message to be gleaned I think.
I love this lady’s take on the Bush “groping” incident.The Bushling is absolutely the best value for laughs. When he is on tour we get some of his best stuff.
The 2006 G8 Back to the Bush Tour has certainly been his winning performance to date in Rabbit’s opinion.
The Bushler mounting the Condi, yes I read some rumours. Redhorse that is not a pretty image.
The pale chimp all hat and boots, riding the gaunt and savage looking Condi Demon, dark muscle and leather, and expensive boots. Yee Ha! What a dreadfully surreal apocalayptic, X-rated vision. The rabbit hides his head in horror.
Condi, Bush’s other bike, the one he doesn’t fall off of. Real men were not being sought after for the job of POTUS, I think Redhorse.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 21, 2006 at 5:05 AM Full name please.
Ms Condoleezza Bojinka-Rice
lest we forget…...
Posted by frog on Jul 21, 2006 at 5:43 AM The whole idea that this ME war is about religion is a red herring anyway. A useful diversion.
The Israelis are doing this for land, and water especially. The Lebanese who are being killed, and probably who support at least in spirit, Hezbollah; are not only Muslims. The resistance to Israeli aggression will by natural progression be Lebanese of all religions, and they are not any of them fighting for religion. It is even predictable on the basis of the fact that I, ostensibly a Christian living in Australia support them. If the rabbit blew something up or got blown up, they would call him an Australian Rabbit, they wouldn’t even take any interest if he was an Gnostic or a Christian, but you can bet it would be reported if he was a Muslim rabbit. Oz bunny or not. I’m even hearing news reports about terrorist bombings etc and they say it was not Muslim. They never mention that it was not Christian, or not Jewish, but the implication is that it was an anomaly, when an examination of the historical evidence shows that Muslims are not the most common group by religion to carry out so called terrorist attacks. Excluding for one must in all fairness, the attacks which are occurring in the war ravaged countries of Iraq and Afganistan which previously saw little terrorism.
Why is there a sub heading of Christian or Jew not attached to Americans or Israelis whether they are reported as the perpetrators or the victims of violence?
Why are Iraqis, or Lebanese victims or perpetrators alike described invariably as Muslims, or otherwise? Are the victims in the reports from Israel being identified by religion? Are we to assume they are all jews? One or two reports mention arab victioms but mostly we hear only of “Israeli victims” or Israeli forces. Of course there are Arab Jews, they are the true semitic Jews of course, unlike the Ashke-nazis
Religion is being re-inforced as a part of the equation in a deliberately biased fashion can’t we see?
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 21, 2006 at 6:50 AM Rabbit…here in the land of the ” Free Market “...all of the abortion bombings have been by…..Christians…but when reported….not much is made of that fact….These preachers teach about ” Jesus in revelations “..second coming with a sword….so fools listening to this nonsense…believe god has called them to murder….Religion like war is a scam…..
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 21, 2006 at 11:26 AM Frog,
“1873 .45cal may be trapdoor springfield”
———————————- -
BINGO!It is a Springfield (Model 1873) actually made in 1884. It is a .45/70 infantry rifle rather than the cavalry carbine and quite accurate. It was made to shoot a .45 cal bullet with a case loaded with 70 grains of black powder. I load my own ammo and usually go with light loads of smokeless powder (much easier to clean up after and non corrosive), but have loaded to match the original — lots of smoke.
I’ve had the rifle for many years and two years ago found the correct bayonet (21 inches long) for it at an antique shop in like new condition. The velocity is so low it is a bit like shooting a basketball, but still a powerful weapon. I am not a hunter — just a paper puncher.
My grandfather was an infantry Captain in the state militia from shortly after the Civil War until 1895 when he went west to act as head of security while a railroad tunnel was being built in the Colorado Rocky Mountains.
The 1873 Winchester was made in .44 to allow carrying the same ammo for a rifle as the Colt Peacemaker .44 revolver. There are replicas being made in .45 Colt now (some of the best by Uberti of Italy).When I grow up I’m going to be a cowboy.
——————————— ;————-
Sallyb,Recently, instead of shooting it, I gave a bunch of ten-year -old hardware to the son of a friend so he could disassemble and reuse the chips and whatever. I checked my files: it cost just under $9,000 and is virtually useless already. My car, on the other hand, is 16 and like my 122 year-old rifle is going strong.
Usually when the “computer blues” srtike I just go out and split firewood. Not as fun but effective.
I am homesick at times for life before I was born —say 1800 or so.
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 21, 2006 at 1:00 PM
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 21, 2006 at 1:53 PM Frog,
re: Your ME scenario: The action could very well follow what you have outlined. In fact I think it is likely unless the U.N. gets involved and put things in limbo for another indeterminate period.
Of course, there are additional possibilities.
What is going on between Lebanon and Israel could be part of an overall war (WW3?). The same war as Afghanistan and Iraq, but another battle or theater of operations.As far as I know Lebanon has no capacity to manufacture the rockets at least not in the numbers they have been lobbing into Israel (well over 1000 by now). So the China (designed) Iran (built and improved) Syria (delivered) may be true.
The establishment of Israel in 1948 was a continuation of western “solutions” for the whole area beginning with the drawing of borders in the sand in 1922. Neither was a workable long-term idea. I would say a poorly designed product is initially does not improve with age.
This particular dispute is not about a few square miles of land. This is about people who have such a history of hatred that a hard core few can bring it to a boil almost at will. The U.S. is so closely identified with Israel that nothing we do will satisfy the radicals. For that matter what difference if as you say, “...generate huge waves of resentment against the Israelis and their US partners…”?
As the current sole “super power” (a media sound bite I hate) we will catch the blame whatever happens. For example the criticism of the “slow evacuation” of 25,000 Americans. Think about the logistics — gathering them, transport arrangements, caring for — them food, water, etc., during transport, finding a place to take them temporarily, (Cyprus was full with the first 10,000 in 72 hours). It is a part of the price of freedom. They were free to go to an area with a violent history and went over a longer time span than when they prematurely left.
I would not want to deal with it. would you? To top it off the ones I saw on TV last night were not very appreciative — surprise, surprise.
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 21, 2006 at 3:47 PM WTH
Good on you. I like old things still working, being used.
I collected 1830-1870 when a kid, the latest being Enfield 577 as used by the Southern states, Snider Enfield breachloader, and a Westley-Richards monkeytail 45 with an octagonally ‘rifled’ barrel.
Gathering dust I’m afraid, so you win on the useful stakes.
Me useless cowboy, no powder.The above was webster tarpley, not me.
powerdown before, posting to edit ...
Posted by frog on Jul 21, 2006 at 4:39 PM Looks like your thinking inside the box, there, WTH.
Tarpley is saying that to open further “fronts” BUSHCO have to get the american people on board . If he just goes ahead, attacking Iran for example, huge waves of resentment will be aroused worldwide against US/Israel, but also within the US against Bushco.
Tarpley assumes the aim is to create more havoc as in Afghanistan / Iraq and now Lebanon. Next stop ?
He reckons Bushco , being insane, criminal or both, , would use “false flag” ops , as a 911 scenario, to once more unite the US for another aggressive war.
He describes a few ways how this could be achieved.
Posted by frog on Jul 21, 2006 at 5:09 PM Redhorse-
The World Can’t Wait (to get rid of the Bush Regime) has a bus tour traveling north from New Orleans. As a member of this group I receive emails informing of their “progress.”
They stopped in a town in Mississippi (I forget the name) because of a demonstration going on there in which anti-abortionists (renamed pro-lifers) are attempting to close down the last abortion clinic in Mississippi. They reported that, while there, the abortionists tore up and burned a Quran. No one has been able to explain to me why that was necessary. What did Muslims or their holy book have to do with an abortion clinic in the U. S? It does not make sense. Most of the children I teach in my E.S.L. classes are Arabic. Having children is like a holy sacrament to them. I can’t in my wildest thoughts image any of the Arabic women I know having an abortion. I’m not saying it never happens, just that in my experience, it’s unbelievable.
How can we ever expect to have a semblance of peace, tolerance, and understanding in the world when so-called christians do something so unconscionable? I think its quite unforgivable and I’m supposed to be a christian. They shame me.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 21, 2006 at 11:31 PM “In 2000, it was Florida. In 2004, Ohio. Andrew Gumbel
writes that in 2006 the biggest threat of election theft
may be in Ohio once again. And John Ireland reports that
RFK Jr.‘s lawsuit against Diebold may be exactly what we
need to prevent e-vote theft from happening across the rest
of the country.”
RFK JR. BLOWS THE WHISTLE ON DIEBOLD
John Ireland, In These Times
The environmental lawyer-turned voting-rights advocate has
found Diebold employees who may link the company to
election fraud.
http://www.alternet.org/story/39152/We’ve got one of the biggest crooks ever, right here in Ohio.
Ken Blackwell has found that pandering to the big shots in D.C.
could pay off for him. He helped steal Ohio for Bush in 2004
and now he’s running for governor and since he is the person
who runs the election here, he’s sure to steal this one for himself
unless Kennedy or someone can stop that slight of hand effort.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 21, 2006 at 11:55 PM WTH
Making excuses for the admin’s evacuation of US citizens is gross for the following reasons.***The USA could tell Israel to cease, or to even hold a pause, and Israel could be made to obey, that is a 100% sure thing, and you know it. A threat to NOT supply even the currently promised jet fuel would be more than enough, without it the Zionists are grounded anyway.
***One of the reasons for the delay in evacuating American Citizens from Lebanon is the fact that the ships to be used are FIRST unloading more weapons for Israel’s use. Those trapped Americans PAID for all that weaponry they are currently in the firing line of by the way.
You have a choice between two options. The safety of 25,000 of your own citizens, or re-supplying fuel and weapons to a regime which has just broken the conditions of being given so much in the first place. The weapons you supplied to Israel went with a caveat that they not be used for assaults on civilans and peaceful neighbors. Not only are they targeting civilan infrastructure, hence civilians, the Zionists are givning no consideration to anyone elses civilians either. They are waging war upon humanity to all intents and purposes.
How can you lose your power of reason again so quickly. The USA holds all the cards in the ME and everyone knows it. Israel may call the shots in the USA, but that isn’t necessary, without the USA Israel would be forced to make peace with their neighbors. I certainly hope you are reffering to the inbred hatred of Zionist Jooz and are not once again trying to project some sort of generatiopnal religious hatred motives upon Arabs again. Arabs don’t hate Jews for any longer than the 48 years of abuse and violence which Jewish Israel has been meting out to them. They may retain that hate for a few more generations, espcecially since Israel is so busy reminding them and us why they are hated, but the ME people want peace, and have wanted peace for along time. They are not prepared to lie down and accept continued Israeli Abuse, land thefts, assasinations etc, but if Israel stops these things the ME will be at peace in a very short while.
It is true that Lebanon has a violent history, it has a history of violent attack from Israel, but since Hezbollah finally kicked them out a few years ago, Lebanon has been undergoiing a cedar revolution, thanks to Hezbollah, and has been a peaceful place to be. WTH you are still not bothering to look beyond the blatantly Zionist propaganda of the MSM, when are you going to expand your horizons? You are probably still buying the lie that the Palestinian’s capture of an IDF soldier or Hezbollah’s capture of two started this. That is complete rot. The Israeli’s kidnapped a Palestinian Doctor and his son a few days before Corporal Shalit’s capture. They have not been heard from since by the way. That is the truth WTH. Can you explain how the Palestinian capture of Corporal Shalit is therefore the cause? It is only so because Israel says it is. In truth all informed observers know Israel has been planning this outrage for months. Ever since it became apparent the USA didn’t quite have the gumption to stick its head in the fire for Israel again over Iran and Syria.
I am inclined to believe that the reason Israel is doing what it has obviously had planned now for months, is due to frustration with the USA not continuing on to Iran and Syria. The admin is finally balking at sticking it’s neck further into the fire, and the Illuminati created state of Israel is being used to force the slightly recalcitrant Bush back into the fray. As such have no doubt that Syria and Iran will be pulled into this if it can be done.
It will take some sort of false flag effort to force the issue yet, for neither Syria nor Iran are so stupid as to get caught so easily I’d guess.
One has to realise that even though the War on Iraq has been a disaster for the USA, it is exactly what the Zionists ordered. They also stated their intention to destroy Iran and Syria in the same way.
The US is like the turkey reading the Thanksgiving menu and exclaiming, “wait a minute.”
A number of the Neo-cons seem to have suddenly realised that it is they who stand to lose the most if this goes further, but even they appear unable to stop the momentum of the war machine they have drummed up.
Read Makow’s take on it, I think it will make sense to you WTH.
Sally
while there, the abortionists tore up and burned a Quran
Whoa! These freaks are really rather scary are they not? What sort of bloodlust, hate filled warped form of christianity are these apes espousing with mindless actions like this? Scary people for sure. Christian Fundamentalists and their Zionist counterparts are abominations.
Of course Abortion is even more abhorent to a Muslim than a Christian Sally. The thing which is most frustrating about the fundamentalist christian hysteria is its failure to recognise that it is among the Islamic fundamentalists they will find their closest allies in all their causes. There is far less between Christianity and Islam than between Judaism and either. In truth the Jews are the enemy of both the others if there is to be any distinction. I personally see all three Abrahamic religions as different facets of the same belief system.
Rabbit belongs to a group which has suffered at the hands of all three over history, Gnostics. We have been burnt at the stake, choked, had our eyes and tingues ripped out and the effort to eradicate us completely has gone on for many decades before today. Do you hear us whinging about persecution? We expect humans to behave in gross and unconsionable ways so long as they are lost in the material illusion.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 22, 2006 at 2:31 AM Frog I think this time, if not also last time, 911, the false flag op will be done to Bush rather than by him. I’d not hesitate to hold Cheney directly responsible for 911, and he could do it again, but I think Bush is baulking finally, as Henry Makow suggests. The media criticism of late is interesting. I find it hard to believe the Zionist/Corporate controlled media is still capable of censoring itself so much over the Israeli outrages in Lebanon, and yet would allow itself to be critical of the Shrub as it is increasingly being. The Bushling is being disobedient; not committing the US yet to an attack on Iran, and even talking about, talking to them instead. The recent Zionist aggression has erupted out of thin air, just as Hamas was accepting Israel’s right to exist, America was softening its rhetoric and seeking dialogue with Iran and Iran was showing less interest in allowng the situation to escalate than the Zionists wanted. European countries were looking more and more like softening their line on Hamas, and the voices in the US for the same were becoming louder. This aggression by Israel apart from setting new standards in War Criminal atrocities and destruction of civilian infrastructure, is designed to force the hand of those who are baulking at the edge of the precipice.
“What so you stinking Goyim are afraid of Armageddon are you?
We willl show you what it looks like then!”
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 22, 2006 at 3:41 AM Sallyb36….Thank you for the response….Redhorse believes based on experience that the US is a extremely racist place too live…Xenophobic behavior of this nature is based in the ignorance of an educational system that has a curriculm based in deciet and propaganda…
Many times while watching a Sunday morning talking head news program…I have heard comments made that in so-called Islamic countries all they teach the children is hate for the US and Christianity….
Now the Horse has never been to one of these schools…and if this is true…the children are being grossly mis-informed….But….given the fact that the US gov’t sanctions , and in the case of this nuckleheaded Select-a-dent is involved militarily in the destruction of one of the most anicent civilizations of the planet…it seems an EZ sell….
Now conversly….I cannot remember the last time Muslims invaded the US…9 / 11 was not an invasion…attack…yes…invasion…no , additionally , the attackers were from the one Arab nation Buskfush loves…the Saudis…The collective amnestia that US citizians display for there own short comings…abortion bombings…Gov’t lend hate groups…anti-Gov’t hate groups…and all the Tim McVieghs lurking on the sidelines , create the pressure too lash out at others who have done nothing too these people…it’s an aviodance response….
Now as stated in past postings…this Horse is not a believer in the religious doctrines of anyone…Christianity , Islam , and Judism are all misrepresentations of much older facts based in Mythology…I TRAIN TO THINK FOR MYSELF…not wanting to sound self-serving…but if more people would…TRAIN TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES….sick minded non-leaders such as the Bushy one , would have little room to weave there web of deciet…...the old wisdom is the best wisdom…..or more correctly…the older the wisdom the better the wisdom….
The USA is a very immature, un-wise member of the world community….they…the US…JUST DOESN’T KNOW IT , YET….
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 22, 2006 at 8:49 AM Further…of the 3 religions…Islam was formed as a reformative measure for all the corrupt behavior in Christianity….priests running after little boys…and such…
As an educator and Christian…I am sure this is very distressing to hear and see…but given the nature of your convictions…all any of use can do is too continue on the path layed before us , and think / act , for a better day…
Science has shown that when individuals or groups have a goal to reach…that thought is the prime mover in starting that action…Redhorse remembers his instructors in grade schools saying….” DOES EVERYONE HAVE THEIR THINKING CAPS ON ? “...And later the admonition of coaches….” DON’T BE BRAIN LOCKED “...
It seems that Amerika…has forgotten their collective ” thinking cap”...and is stuck in ” brain lock mode “......
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 22, 2006 at 9:17 AM You can be an Gnostic if you want Horse. We are into thinking for oneself. We don’t really even get into God is good and all that but realise it is all relative. Good needs bad in order to define itself and visa versa. Bad seeks to destroy Good, but by removing good the bad has no definition, no meaning. Without Bad, Good hasn’t either.
All existence in this plane is made possible by the dichotomies of good and evil. Light and dark. Up and down, left and right, that is the law of this plane of existence. The duality of man’s nature, like the duality of the weather and seasons, all these things are dualities. The Budhist concept of Yin and Yang is an expression of this. All of them come into being by virtue of separation, male from female. The combination of the two results in anhilation, or creation, take your pick. By separating light from darkness, the Christian Allegorical God Man supposedly brought the universe into being. In a sense this is how it happened certainly.
Sure as you destroy one or other half of any of these essential dichotomies, you destroy the other’s reason for existence, it ceases to exist even.
I guess if good or evil ever triumphed, the end of the universe would be the result.
That we come from another place and that we exist outside of this mortal shell of dense energy, imaginary matter in an imaginary world, is a simple truth which is engraved on each of our hearts if we look for it.
An Gnostic knows this and knows his place is but that of an actor, in an artificial world, for a short while.
Adolf Hitler was an Gnostic, so was Jesus Christ. An Gnostic is typically the sort of person who starts a new religion or sect, Martin Luther was an Gnostic. Once the thing is done it attains a life of its own, for Gnosticism is not demanding of any one or another specific dogmatic approach to the same truths. Many paths lead to the same place. You can call him God or Allah but the Gnostic can see you are both speaking of the same fellow. Neither have any clue about what God is within their doctrine, but people may find out all the same by following the religious principles. This search for God, or our origins goes on for all people, independent of religion even if one is religious. The search continues for example if we move from one faith for another. It is not as if one abandons one search and begins a new by changing course, the journey is the same one, the path has simply changed.
By the way, all those religions can be traced back to Zoroastroism. The details including the virgin birth, I even think carpentry is in there. The star over his birthplace and more.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 22, 2006 at 9:22 AM For the Lebanon story see Tom Hayden on Israeli /“aipac” control over selection of candidates to Congress
YO HECK
Thinking caps are for getting outside the propaganda. Outside the box.I was with two german friends yesterday , one jewish. Robert repeated the stuff that Iran wants to massacre all Israelis, and Jurgen and I both told him, together, that it was all based on a mistranslation since repeated countless thousands of times.
And believed by millions of people…..
That is propaganda, reducing and distorting to pass a soundbite message .
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire
The more people aware of this, and that govts have a track-record of false-flag operations, the less likely they will be taken in.
All aboard for the USS Liberty ........................? Or not.
Posted by frog on Jul 22, 2006 at 9:25 AM Rabbit….Gnostic thought is a light to a much more realistic perception of the evolutionary path humanity has taken…The concept of good and evil is based in the simple observation of day and night…Early humans obviously blessed the day…and cursed the night ...based on the hardships encountered….During the day ...life was evident…at night…it was not…In the Universal order of life….there is no good or bad , just life…individual chioce is what creates a good or bad experience…that choice should be based off of that inner being or living force that christians referr to as the historical so-called “Jesus Christ “....When misconceptions and disinformation , commonly referred to as propaganda or rhetoric dominate the decision making process…we experience…dis-order…or chaos…Although this Horse can see evil all around him…and in himself…I strive not to believe in it , because only by believing that this evil is real…does it actually exist….when humanity understands this basic principle of life in our temporal plane of existence, things will get better…So…I disagree that good and evil are dichotomous…the astronomical fact of day and night are…but evil does not have too exist…only in the minds of men do we find this disingenuous phenomenon…
Now based on the history in the Torah…yes…the individaul commonly mistaken for this so-called Jesus Christ of Nazereth was a disciple of Gnostic thought…His name according to Hebrew tradition was Jehoshua Ben-Pandira…but this individual was no more the Savior than anybody else…the ” Christ ” of their aduration was within ; esoteric…not a historical being ; exoteric…this is the beginning of the strumbling block for many ” believers “, in their attempt to know ” God “.....
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 22, 2006 at 11:36 AM Now Hitler was aware of Gnosticism and was acutely concious of the propaganda value of the symbolisms…But Redhorse would not call that extremist a Gnostic…Remember…Gnosticisms origins are from central Afrika , from the region commonly called Uganda…in antiquity Muwaza Nhaza…then up the Nile too what was at one time referred to as Kemet…the ancient Nile valley culture of modern day Egypt..the Dogon people of Mali are believed to be direct descendents of this Nile valley culture and the Hutu…Twa and San people…referred to as ” Dwarf Kings” in antiquity are the original adherence too the discipline…..
Hitler… no fan of Afrikan people or culture , was probably a believer in the so-called ” Caucasiod ” propaganda of that day…
Zoroasticism came out of Persia…( Iraq )...and was basically another form of the Savior cult….My take on Martin Luther was that he was a church reformist…adhereing to the word of the written Gospel of his time…
The biblical Paul…though made to look like a proponent of some historical character…was in fact an adherent too the Gnostic Christ within…my problem with him is that he rejects the feminine form of the esoteric knowledge…the “Charis “..same difference, but pre-extant…more ancient than the male form…
My argument on that point is ; the female always proceeds the male in evolutionary matters…based off of the fact of nature…no man has ever given “birth ” to anything…seed yes…gestation….NO….
Further…humankind at that ancient stage of development , did not recognize the individual fatherhood of the male…all things were traced from the female as life force…whether astronomical , cosmological…or natural child-birth…mother earth gave forth all life…..the male was secondary…only later does our role become more apparent…..
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 22, 2006 at 12:45 PM Hitler nor others need to recognise their Gnosticism for it to be so. Just as one doesn’t join a gnostic church as such, one realises just that one is.
This is a fine ranting Gryphon.
Eric Blumrich’s site is a goldmine of excellent and effective presentations. I was told today his site is closing down soon. Everybody should visit Bushflash and gather copies of the goodies that they be not lost to posterity.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 22, 2006 at 3:42 PM Hi Redhorse-
Your comments are wise and consoling to this sojourner on this path
“...all any of use can do
is too continue in on the path layed before us , and think for a better
day… “
and suggest a look inside intent. Thanks.Although there isn’t time to rest on one’s “laurels,” my country is comfortable with its “lot,” and so the comfort zone supercedes anything else that seems irrelevant… wars, famine, lying politicians, poverty, Katrina catastrophe… if it takes any more than noble-sounding rhetoric or placebos, forget it… UNTIL it directly affects, and then all hell breaks loose.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 22, 2006 at 6:08 PM Rabbit…You are more generous than I…many lettered men have studied the The Book of the Coming Forth by Day and by Night…the stone glyphs and papryus scripts…and still had no clue as to how humanity has been mislead…The Rosetta Stone has been the key for western truth seekers…
True…the light of the world…born in every soul is the immortal principle in human beings…that gives us life…but to claim ” Knowledge of Thyself “...is to realize that life force for the benefit of a much larger reality…that Redhorse doesn’t see in the works of Hitler…
By our works , not by the use of symbols…shall we attain Knowledge..
Hitler was a propagandizing fool…have you ever heard of the signifying monkey….the monkey acted like he knew…but really had no clue….
Hilters fascination with the subject matter , was no different than Bush , and his claim of being ” reborn “....Exoterically yes…..Esoterically….no…
Many Scottish Rite Freemasons , claim to Know Thyself….but in fact are plagiarizer.of ancient cosmology….Some do good…many do not….Redhorse would not be one bit surprized if Bush was also a member of some Freemason Lodge, we know he is Skull & Bones….doesn’t change the fact that he is an idiot…....To be a Gnostic, is to be in possession of a certain wisdom…...
Now Hitler had some balls…and was a master of rhetoric…but that’s all I give the man…....
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 22, 2006 at 6:10 PM Sallyb36….Unfortunately you are most likely correct…the US has been dishing out a lotta stuff….When it is time too recieve on that account is anybodies guess….but it won’t be pretty…the Horse sees no invasion…but a discord from within…Race & Class….race & class….these problems have never been adequately dealt with….
No things last forever…only Life is immortal….
....
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 22, 2006 at 7:11 PM Rabbit…Checked out all 4 links…That’s good….Now what we have to do is wire that baybee up so it plays on mainstream TV ad infinitum…ya pickup the remote and hit off…it still runs…pull the plug on the station…no good…still runs….after 96 hours….Bush is outta luck…one way ticket to the HAGUE….......GAAR-ROON-TEEED ! !......bet…..
No joke…the images are so troubling that a soldier or civilian in Iraq has got to breakdown…the long range consequences will be with the US for the next 5 or 6 generations….hey..but what did the Child emperor say….he’s not worried about his legacy in history…he’ll be died…now that’s a man of vision for the nation…
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 22, 2006 at 9:01 PM Horse you are ascribing notions of good and evil to Gnosticism, which is above this dichotomy of good and evil.
Gnosticism is a way of understanding, not a religious path towards some fixed goal, no heaven and no seventy virgins in a Gnostic vision. Just the sense of connection to all sentience, awareness of oneness with God by another paradigm.
Not all gnostics are good, or even seek to be. Gnostics should be concentrating only on the purity of their own input. Paying most attention to their intent.
The rabbit recomends this site .What is a Gnostic? We claim many who might not even have known they were.
<u>You can not convert to Gnosticism, nor can you pretend to be a Gnostic…</u>
You either are a Gnostic, or you are not.
Those of you who are Gnostics and don’t know it will have always felt as outsiders and aliens in this world. You know in the depth of your being that you really don’t belong. You are alone in this world and you very well know it. Perhaps you are somewhat adjusted and you often pretend to yourself and the world around you that everything is just fine, but in your heart and soul you know that you are homesick for another world and for others like you. You live in exile as an alien amongst strangers.
We are each an Army of one.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 23, 2006 at 1:48 AM No….I cannot judge what is good or evil….and that is not what I am implying…the immortal principles are in us all…if not , you’re considered dead in this temporal existence…The point of contention…is a paradox of conciousness expressed in the agendas of certian individuals….we all struggle internally with this reality…but my point on personalities such as Hitler or Bush is that in no way are these people aware of the dualism , their actions point more to duplicity….Gnosticism is full of dualities….but duplicity is corrosive to the individual and the collective reality….Gnosticism is basically the science of Eschatology…what happens too us when we died ; base on how we lived..the truth of who we are to ourselves…these men do not apply themselves to that fact…in my oppinion….
Hitler commited suicide…when the end came…he was not responsible for his own soul….which is the base of Gnostic principle….Now Bush…this Horse doesn’t know how this fool will ” kick the bucket “...but it seems pretty clear he has no vision of that reality…..
The universe will not condemn them…they will condemn themselves…when their ego goes up against their own truth….THE ESOTERIC GNOSTIC ” CHRIST ” WITHIN….p.s…..Thanks for all the links…Redhorse is not yet a yearling on the .net….....
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 23, 2006 at 11:09 AM Bush is not a Gnostic.
Hitler wasn’t really a deceiver Redhorse and besides deceit isn’t against Gnosticism. Did you read the link? I think Good and Evil are very easy to judge personally. I am committed to the path of good myself and feel confident of my judgement that DU, the Bush Junta, or the Zionists are members of the caucus of Evil.
The christian expression of the principle that a mere mortal cannot have the Omniscience to make a proper balanced judgement of another, is not exclusive of the ability to make at least a judgement of good and evil in terms of the works and of the words of anyone or entity.
The point is that the choice of good or evil isn’t an issue Gnosticism really concerns itself with. We accept the need for the duality of material existence. We long for the singularity of our origins, this is the destination so mislabelled by Christians as Heaven. This is I think, to be one with God.
The singularity.What I am saying is that the concept of a Good God, a benevolent big man in the sky, is but a small sideshow of the Gnostic vision of “God”.
God is not Good or Evil, he is both.
These are but concepts existing within the framework of God.Is there a Bad Guy entity like Satan? Sure, if we make one. Same goes for a benevolent bearded old guy in a white robe, if we make one. Of course the duality of all creation, in this plane is such that by the act of creating a Good Guy God we create his counter weight, his Satan.
The good guy had no relevance until his nemesis existed.
Both are merely manifestations of the state of being we share, something of, yet separate to the cosmic consciousness.Those who scuttle about crowing God is Great don’t really know the half of it. They might as well be saying Long Live God, for all the relevance their concept of this greatness has.
Recognising the pointlessness of suicide for our own development sake isn’t the same as decrying it as intrinsically bad. It is a neutral act in itself, but the consciousness of the pain and loss it will cause to others may tip the balance against it in this regard, while the occasions in which some relief of pain and suffering for someone may be enough to justify the sacrifice, then suicide may have the balance of good on its side. It is a neutral thing my friend either way we shall be returning to this plane of existence in good order with exactly the same balance of Karma as had when we left it. With the adjustment which might be made on the basis of the sum good or bad we earned with that final act, of course.
It is an enobling concept Horse. We are not vassels, in thrall to some Good or Evil Master God King, we are all free agents to choose and to act out the consequences of those choices.
We will always be our own master, but we can give up our freedom for a pittance, we can barter and sell it or we can hoad it and guard it, share and invest it.
In this modern form for slavery, the real value of a man’s life is maybe measurable in what he gets for the price of his freedom.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 24, 2006 at 2:48 AM Israel’s army chief of staff, Dan Halutz, told reporters in Tel Aviv on Friday that any military incursion would be limited in scope. ‘We will fight terror wherever it is, because if we do not fight it, it will fight us. If we don’t reach it, it will reach us,’ he said. ‘We will also conduct limited ground operations as much as needed in order to harm the terror that harms us.’
In order to harm the terror that harms us….....................^^..........................
So far 350 civilians killed in Lebanon and up to a million refuges hasn’t stopped two million Israelis having to live in Bomb shelters, and the deaths of about thirty five Israelis, only half of whom were civilians.
The Hezbollah are proud of their martyrs and are always openly admitting to any losses, considering it an honour to be killed by the Israelis. The press is operating freely in Lebanon showing the actual situation on the ground while reporters can move freely and safely, with the caveat that they could be bombed by Israel any moment. No deaths or severe losses except buildings and property of any Hezbollah have been reported. We get vague impossible claims by Israel that they are performing surgical strikes. Like fuck they are!
They sure are not doing anything to lessen the terror, which will destroy them in the sense it is but their own paranoia. That paranoia is as certain to bring them to their destruction as the imaginary boogey men of the Bushlings and Olmerts, eventually.
An adviser to Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz told The Observer: ‘We are finally going to fight Hizbollah on the ground. The Israeli people are ready for this, and the Sunni Muslim world also expects us to fight Shia fundamentalism. We are going to deliver.’
Bullshit! Dammit that is just too stupid. Hezbollah are not a fundamentalist terror group but a local homegrown resistance movement! They support and share goals with, Hamas, which is Sunni. As a group they have represented their largest portion of the population fairly with a proportionate share of power and democratic involvment. This is not a group seeking to dominate anyone. They are not undemocratic and are closely interlocked with the Lebanese Army anyway with whom they have fought side by side before and will again before long probably. Rabbit invites anyone to read the recent interview withHezbollah Secretary General Hasan Nasrallah it gives the measure of the man, and next to the empty rhetoric like “harming terror which harms us” it is a breath of fresh air for its honest analysis and seemingly honest accounting of all that has transpired to date.Since he doesn’t claim otherwise I’m willing to accept now that the Israeli soldiers captured were captured on the Israeli side. Certainly the capture was no mistake. It was not intended nor could have been expected to result in such an outcome I would also believe.
When has an army gone to war on the basis of the capture of two soldiers? Even for the Israelis it is an over reaction and I get the sense that Hezbollah have at least not been more prepared for this beyond having imagined it as worst case. Nasrallah says “There is no target—old, new, assumed, expected, based on information or analysis—that they did not hit.” but he denies that the command structure or any more than one or two rocket batteries have been hit.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 24, 2006 at 7:07 AM Rabbit…read parts of the links…The basic difference that I see in viewpoint…is that the Rabbit and the Horse , are approaching this subject from two differing perspectives or rather models…..one ; Afrikan-centered in approach and the other European-centered in approach…
The Afrikan model is primary…so it would seem this is the place to start…if knowledge of the subject is to be understood…. I do however…look forward to reading the rest of the link on Hitler…and others….
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 24, 2006 at 11:58 AM Frog and Rabbit,
I think this is interesting…
Frog said,
“Thinking caps are for getting outside the propaganda. Outside the box.
I was with two german friends yesterday , one jewish. Robert repeated the stuff that Iran wants to massacre all Israelis, and Jurgen and I both told him, together, that it was all based on a mistranslation since repeated countless thousands of times.”——————————— ;—
OK, my thinking cap is on… I think, that you think (as does Rabbit and many others) that YOU are out side the box. I, on the other hand, think you guys are just in a different box.Do you honestly not see that your view (which you double teamed on your Jewish friend) is also based on constantly repeated theories and ideas?
Rabbit accuses me of, “Making excuses for the admin’s evacuation of US citizens…”What I was doing is pointing out the logistics involved in moving 25,000 people. People of a wide age range with varying needs.
Rabbit declares Israel is U.S. controlled and we could dictate their actions (aka. stop the war), but preferred to deliver weapons to Israel rather than rescue these people. I’ve seen that claim.
Let’s assume a U.S. ship was going to deliver weapons… that it was in the area… would they(?): a. Pick up a bunch of civilians and put them in with the weapons. b. Deliver the weapons to Lebanon to save time. c.Unload the cargo in Israel first.
I guess Rabbit believes that due to gnosis he has the wisdom to interpret and distinguish what is true in this mess. He has certainly made it emphatic that anyone considering any view other than his is totally in denial or just plain stupid.IMO, any of “those trapped Americans” who were there by choice were damned lucky the U.S. military saved their butts at any price. (Actually I paid for their ticket out and did not like all the pissing and moaning I saw on TV about the wait and/or the accommodations.) Any who went there went in complete disregard of the State Dept. warnings. I say bill them for the trip.
As for the labeling the Moslems in this conflict — could it be we get the idea from all the Mullahs involved and constantly appearing as leaders. Could it be because of the cries of “Allah Akbar” coming from the crowds? Could it be that a country with the word “Islamic” in its name is involved?I know Rabbit expresses little regard for history, but most people are likely to agree that this conflict has erupted periodically for about four thousand years.
——————-One point of agreement emerged here. Rabbit said, “...by removing good the bad has no definition, no meaning. Without Bad, Good hasn’t either.”
Contrast is a necessary attribute. White chalk on a blackboard, black ink on white paper, hot/cold, fast/slow…
“All things participate in existence — even those things which do not exist.” Paul Tillich, existentialist theologian (empty space defines all objects)Unimpressed with the gnostic link, however.
“Gnostics are like a race apart, above and beyond all other human races, who like silent watchers, in tune with another dimension, perceive, interpret and relate in their own unique way drastic solutions to the dilemma of human existence.”
This concept should appeal to ego-centric, or self-delusional individuals. It allows them to indulge their ideas and wishes saying, “I am not a self-satisfied bore. I am “above and beyond” the ordinary people—they are just incapable of grasping my wisdom.”
This planet is neither evil nor good. It has the potential for either or both, which seems self evident.
——————————— ;——————————
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 24, 2006 at 12:37 PM Sallyb,
re: Burning of the Quran at abortion clinic protest.
“How can we ever expect to have a semblance of peace, tolerance, and understanding in the world when so-called christians do something so unconscionable? I think its quite unforgivable and I’m supposed to be a christian. They shame me.”
I have no clue as to why they would do this — ignorance, misinformed, whatever.But they didn’t shame YOU — only themselves.
There is no more reason to accept blame for the actions of others, (or to attribute it to an entire religion) than there is to accept credit if they do something good.
Attributing the actions of a few or an individual to a whole class, clan, race, nation is what wars are all about.
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 24, 2006 at 12:38 PM WTH….How ya doin….Are not wars fought over land..resources…with name calling as a result of the rheteric and propaganda…...?
Posted by Redhorse on Jul 24, 2006 at 8:06 PM Hi Redhorse,
I suppose there are many reasons and you nailed some of the usual suspects for sure. I suppose “...what wars are all about.” was a poor choice of words.
Generalizing about those on the other side just confuses the issues and whips up hate to promote “us against “them.”
Some of the most viscious propaganda can be seen in the WW1 posters casting the “Hun” as a monster. In WW2 Nazi cartoons aimed at the Jews accused them of eating babies and raping gentile women.
Last week a lot was made of a few Israeli kids writing hate messages on artillery shells (Which we did in WW2, by the way.)
My point was we should not be too eager to tar everyone with the same brush.
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 24, 2006 at 9:03 PM Good
Hello Whattheheck The rabbit was just thinking of you regarding the following, back to those signing statements.
The ABA group, which includes a one-time FBI director and former federal appeals court judge, said the president has overstepped his authority in attaching challenges to hundreds of new laws.The attachments, known as bill-signing statements, say Bush reserves a right to revise, interpret or disregard measures on national security and constitutional grounds.
“This report raises serious concerns crucial to the survival of our democracy,” said the ABA’s president, Michael Greco. “If left unchecked, the president’s practice does grave harm to the separation of powers doctrine, and the system of checks and balances that have sustained our democracy for more than two centuries.”
Some congressional leaders had questioned the practice. The task force’s recommendations, being released Monday in Washington, will be presented to the 410,000-member group next month at its annual meeting in Hawaii.
ABA policymakers will decide whether to denounce the statements and encourage a legal fight over them.
The task force said the statements suggest the president will decline to enforce some laws. Bush has had more than 800 signing statement challenges, compared with about 600 signing statements combined for all other presidents, the group said.
Shall we give the Lawyers the benefit of the doubt WTH or would you like to question their figures?
Much of what you write is flopping clumsily about in denialist territory again and you are also putting words in my mouth. You say;
What I was doing is pointing out the logistics involved in moving 25,000 people. People of a wide age range with varying needs.
AND what I was pointing out was the low priority being afforded such evacuations of one’s own citizens, and expecting them to pay their way, when you are puting weapons delivery and giving them all away for free to a foreign power who is putting those US citizens in danger in the first place. The logistics are no different for you lot than for anyon else. You don’t even have the most citizens needing evac, our population is less than a tenth of yours, and with as many Oz citizens in Lebanon as their are Amercian, we are way ahead of you in the evacuation stakes and so are most other countries. I do understand a country which lacks even the infrastructure to prepare for and cope with the aftermath of a single average Hurricane and flooding is seriously behind the eight ball given something as novel as evacuating citizens from a war zone. What you are conveniently pretending is unquestionably right, and it isn’t, is that the first priorty for the USA is to aid and abet an unprovoked war of attrition against a country which a few weeks earlier you were calling a model of democracy and which country has done absolutely nothing to deserve such a massive assault.
You are asking why should the USA do anything to help its citizens, and what you mean is, especially if they aren’t white european stock. Indeed WTH. But could you also explain why the USA should be doing so much to help Israel, bending over backwards and selling its soul and its blood for Israel?
Don’t lower yourself by repeating the MSM talking points about Israel having a right to defend itself. Nobody ever went to war over a couple of soldiers kidnapped. The facts are already before you unless you decide to go into one of your mind numbingly daft denialism rants again. All that does is show you have missed the boat claiming you are not inside THE box. If you cannot even look past the thoroughly discredited MSM over the current Mid East mess, then you are as hopelessly mired in unthinking as ever.
Rabbit declares Israel is U.S. controlled and we could dictate their actions (aka. stop the war), but preferred to deliver weapons to Israel rather than rescue these people. I’ve seen that claim.
No I don’t WTH, you are amking that up! I don’t claim that Israel is US controlled.
By deconstructing my actual statement to mean this you are showing a profoundly flawed reasoning ability my friend. I said simply that the USA could influence Israel to stop. I pointed out that by stopping delivery of weapons, and jet fuel, all of which are being given away free by the way, and all of which are technically supplied on the conditions they not be used for destruction of civilian infrastructure, Israel would have to stop.Instead you have once again as always, blocked a UN resolution to sanction Israel in over its current actions. Even though Israel historically has ignored every UN resolution ever coined, it still shows the slavish servitude of the US to Israel, that they would lower themselves to veto every attempt by the UN to moderate their behaviour. No way WTH, you need a brush up on those reasoning skills and a reality check. The hypocrisy of Israel demanding that Hezbollah observe UN resolution 1559 leaves one breathless. The hypocrisy of the US/Israeli movement is a matter of record, don’t dilute your position by trying to pretend otherwise please.
Israel is not controlled by anyone, it is a complete rogue nation. One built upon taking all that is given, then taking everything else, and terrorising, murdering and besmearing all who stand in their way.
Let’s assume a U.S. ship was going to deliver weapons and that it was in the area, would they(?): a. Pick up a bunch of civilians and put them in with the weapons. b. Deliver the weapons to Lebanon to save time. c.Unload the cargo in Israel first.How about we re-examine the morality beyond supplying those weapons in the first place? Do you know those ships were already underway with weapons onboard before being expected then to evacuate Citizens? No you do not. As it happns some of these ships are being loaded up to sail since and will only then be available for evacuation. By making such an assumption you prove how determined you are to seek any sort of justification in your mind for every little thing which doesn’t suit you, yet you accept out of hand the thinly disguised propaganda about what suits you, without fail.
You probably believe that Israel is defending itself, despite the obvious ludicrous nature of that idea. You are convinced that Lebanon started it by kidnapping two soldiers when even in Israel it is being reported that this invasion was prepared a year ago, and the kidnappings (captures) are counterbalanced by Israeli kidnappings leading up to them and even this is admitted in Israel. The only people stupid enough to still believe that Israel is trying to free some soldiers, and that they were provoked, are those who are living inside a media controlled box.
Don’t go making pathetic ad-hominem attacks on my personal philosophy WTH, you are the only one who ever talks of magical powers or mysterious understandings. Rabbit sticks to the verifiable facts and bases his opinions upon these, and unlike you dearest, the rabbit does indeed give History a lot of attention. Your superficial understanding of history is invariable unable to match mine or indeed most peoples aound here, so let us not go getting all rhetorical and slogany.
could it be we get the idea from all the Mullahs involved and constantly appearing as leaders. Could it be because of the cries of Ă¢â‚¬Å“Allah AkbarĂ¢â‚¬Â coming from the crowds? Could it be that a country with the word Ă¢â‚¬Å“IslamicĂ¢â‚¬Â in its name is involved?
What Mullahs WTH? How are they involved here exactly? If they are leaders, what is wrong with them appearing as such? What is wrong with crowds crying God is Great? You do understand that “Allah u Akbar” is the same as evangelicals sreaming “Praise the Lord” don’t you old boy? The corwds might seem scary to you, because they are using a foreign language and dressed differently. Would it help if they learnt English and held their protest rallies in English for you poor diddums? Could we stop being so fucking hypocritical WTH? Yopu can call all Muslim dominated countries Muslim extremists if I may refer to Israel as a JEWISH extremist state and the USA as a Christian Extremist state.
You are the two doing all the killing and destroying, so I think we can dispense with the niceties and admit the USA is a Rogue Terrorist state currently embarked on an unlimited war of conquest, and Israel is also. It can furthermore be rightly pointed out that both of your countries are the most determined to paint the entire conflict as a religiously inspired one.
You cannot find any statements from Hamas or Hezbollah at this time which are saying anything more than leave us alone, release our people you have imprisoned and let us in peace. There is NO Muslim overtone, NO MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALIST demands, just the usual, They are defending themseves against the racist xenophobic Israel is Jooz and American Christian Bigots. Wake up, WTH, knock knock, Hezbollah are Shia, and Hamas is Sunni, got it?
That some Mullahs speak out in support of this resistance doesn’t make the resistance an Islamic fundamentalist movement. Unless again, the Us and Israeli aggressions are defined as extreme Christian or Jewish because some fundamentalist Preacher like Robertson or some crazy Rabbi gets up and uses their religious interpretation of it all. The double standards, the hypocrisy is a blindingly powerful device for you denialists. When are you going to wake up and smell your own shit? That is the problem. You are so accustomed to living in your own shit, that you think yours doesn’t smell. There is so much Zionist shit coating things especially the media and policy in the USA that it seems not to stink to you either.
The Arabs are telling you that your shit stinks too, and would you kindly stop dumping it on their heads.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 25, 2006 at 2:08 AM WTH
Your hypocrisy is astounding. The following statement by you is worthy of Bush for its self irony:
There is no more reason to accept blame for the actions of others, (or to attribute it to an entire religion) than there is to accept credit if they do something good.
Well why would you say that? You are blaming entire countries and a whole religion for acts caried out by a few extremists from one religion. Come on you clown, explain how Islam is a violent religion again. Tell us all about Islam, on the back of that tripe it will be hilarious.
You are justifying atacking two, now three countries on the basis of what a few extreme individuals did or did not do, and labelling the whole war as a fight against Muslim extremists, yet you include people of any and all faiths in your bombing campaigns in Iraq and Lebanon. You are indeed blaming others for these things. Neither the Lebanese people nor the Lebanese government has done anything to Israel, nothing at all. Just as the Iraqi people never did anything to the USA and neither did Saddam Hussein. The Taliban never did anything to the USA either.
None of the few isolated incidents of terror which can be attributed to Islamic Fundamentalists have been done with the endorsement of Islam as a religion or even of its adherants. Just because all those people who are jumping up and down screaming hatred of USA are in many cases Muslims, you will find there is equally as much hatred for The USA and Israel these days among crowds in many non Muslim countries too. This hatred of the USA and Israel isn’t religiously inspired, that is your language. It is inspired by your atrocities and lies. That is the language of those who resist you, none of them are claiming a religious cause. They are all claiming the cause as being Israeli and US aggression, it is only the Zionist controlled press which keeps altering the mesage and making some mush story about Islamic hatred. You speak of history yet if you knew anything about it you would know that the wars fought by Muslims against Christians and Jews have always been started by the Christians or Jews attacking first, and stealing their lands. Always the Christians and Jews are the most brutal and least honourable on the battle field. Going back to King Richard the “Hyena” heart or even going back to the biblical massacres the Jews committed in the name of their child sacrificing, hate filled destroyer God. Once again it is my sad duty to inform you that you are not on the side of the angels after all.
It is largely the Christian Lebanese areas which have been bombed and shelled in Lebanon did you know WTH? How do they measure up as Islamic Extremists?
Your spurious and ad-hominem dribble about Gnosticism just shows you are out of your depth, best not to make agose of yourself in areas of which you have zero knowledge I think. You babble on, trying to make an analysis on an ancient spiritual movement, based upon a selected sentence taken out of context. Sad.
This planet is neither evil nor good. It has the potential for either or both, which seems self evident
How about you go back and check, you’ll find you are not saying anything different, just in an over simplified, even primitiv form.
.........................^..............................Allah u Akbar .....................WTH
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 25, 2006 at 2:22 AM Back to the STOLEN PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
The best thing about knowing the truth is that things just keep on coming out to prove your points. The elections were stolen, and the next one is going to be stolen, if there is a next one…
Diebold caught red handed in the biggest smoking gun (for intent) yet.
Now why the f*ck would you have specially built Voting machines, with a backdoor entry into the programs if it wasn’t intended to commit fraud?
Basically, Diebold included a “back door” in its software, allowing
anyone to change or modify the software. There are no technical
safeguards in place to ensure that only authorized people can make
changes.A malicious individual with access to a voting machine could rig the
software without being detected. Worse yet, if the attacker rigged the
machine used to compute the totals for some precinct, he or she could
alter the results of that precinct. The only fix the RABA authors
suggested was to warn people that manipulating an election is against
the law.
Warn people that manipulating an election is against the law? Oh well then I guess that should do it.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 25, 2006 at 6:03 AM Diebold spokesman David Bear admitted to the New York Times that the back door was inserted intentionally so that election officials would
be able to update their systems easily. Bear justified Diebold’s
actions by saying, “For there to be a problem here, you’re basically
assuming a premise where you have some evil and nefarious election
officials who would sneak in and introduce a piece of software… I
don’t believe these evil elections people exist.”So, Diebold trusts “itself” and its employees so much that there is NO concern. And, it trusts all poll workers. Ah, me. Well, our experience here in our little abode goes back to the 2004 election and a chat room that my daughter Jenny visits.
One of the fellows in that chat room works for Diebold and bragged incessantly that “he knew how to fix computers to change votes for Bush and planned to make sure that G. W. would win the election. He even shared some finer details as to his “expertise” and abilities for ensuring that win. He didn’t care what the election polls suggested, his man Bush would win. His braggadocio finally drove my daughter to report him to the election board. Well, we all know how well that went. Not.
We believe it may happen again in 2006 in Ohio, and Ken sleeps-with-the-religious-fundamentalist-and-their-“causes”-Blackwel ll, will steal another election. Only this time for himself as governor. That will be a black day in Ohio history. The black-hearted-win-at-any-cost Blackwell as Governor, selling the liberties of Ohioans to right-wing conservative religious zealots. Terrorists in dark suits and ties live among us. So much for freedom individual freedoms . . .
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 25, 2006 at 6:39 AM Robbing banks is against the law, but for some strange reason they have locks on the doors, and EVEN high security vaults.
By DIEBOLD- LOGIC, banks are wasting 00s of millions, billions of $ ÂŁ Euros Yen etc of our money on these unnecessary precautions.
Posted by frog on Jul 25, 2006 at 6:58 AM Ted Lang ties the whole historical context into a simple enough progression using simple verifiable examples, that ALMOST anyone can follow and understand. Nation without Sovereignty
Please read it WTH. Pretty, fluffy rabbit please.. You will like Ted, Rabbit chooses him specially for his appropriateness as a reliable source for one with your established viewpoint. Not your views, but your viewpoints are similar, do you understand?
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 25, 2006 at 7:12 AM Sally, Do we at least get multiple choices?
What happened to the Diebold employee?a) The Diebold employee was investigated and prosecuted.
b) The Diebold employee was investigated and fired.
c) The Diebold employee was investigated and reprimanded.
d) The Diebold employee was quietly terminated and nothing more was heard from him.Rabbit chooses…..none of the above?
You and daughter received for your efforts.
a) Special award ceremony and a nice certificate of appreciation on behalf of a grateful nation.
b) A thankyou and a promise that such information was taken seriously and would be followed up on, followed by actions which showed at least you had been heard.
c) A warm feeling of achievment and a cute bumper sticker.
d) A nice shrub in a little pot with a flag and a small gnome beside it.No No No, you naughty bushling, you are not getting away so easily on those signing statements. Probably the bill won’t make it, unless of course the Israel lobby wants it so.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 25, 2006 at 7:37 AM Sallyb and Redhorse,
Here’s a funny story from my son this AM which illustrates my generalization point and jumping to conclusions.
George Saunders flies to England:
To get to Britain, you fly over several oceans, including the Atlantic. I think also Missouri? I did not see very much of the Atlantic or Missouri or whatever because, as we passed over, I was watching a movie on our aeroplane, called Dumb And Dumber. It was funny. It is about these two guys who are dumb.
Then we were served dinner. I was next to a guy from Spain! All he did was sleep. The Spanish, I concluded, are a lazy people, prone to sleep, who do not enjoy movies. When he finally woke up, I gave him a cookie I had saved for him, because I did not like it.
He enjoyed that cookie, that’s for sure! That’s one thing one can conclude about the Spanish: they certainly love to feed their faces. Then it turned out he wasn’t Spanish at all, but a fellow American, from Montana!
I guess I learned a valuable lesson about generalising: people from Montana are lazy and love to feed their faces.
Full article:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/generalfiction/story/0,,1826279,00.html
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 25, 2006 at 2:46 PM Rabbit,
“The rabbit was just thinking of you regarding the following, back to those signing statements.”
I totally agree with the ABA.
My only point regarding this was the arguments were hyperbolic due to people disliking Bush. Setting aside anything to do with him personally or his reasons for using signing statements — The reports were exaggerating the number of times and thus weakening their argument. they were comparing apples to oranges when apples to apples would have been adequate and more convincing.
In the mean time the Supreme court has acted on his torture statement. This is what they are supposed to do as a part of the separation of ppowers and checks and balances. Now, I would like them to give an opinion about the whole process of using signing statements and put an end to it.
What I was trying to point out is how often people are willing to accept at face value anything which supports or reinforces their own opinion. What I found here on signing statements was the same as what happened with the Ansana/Robertson interview hoax — a single erroneous or exaggerated source was picked up by many others who went on to decry a phony article.
Once something is on the internet it goes on forever — even when the original is withdrawn.
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 25, 2006 at 3:09 PM Rabbit says,
“You are asking why should the USA do anything to help its citizens, and what you mean is, especially if they aren’t white european stock.”
————————-
And you accuse me of putting words in YOUR mouth. I stated my opinion quite clearly — think whatever you please.
——————————-
Rabbit,
Re-read my comment (after you take your blood pressure pill) and you may be able to figure out that your understanding is exactly, precisely the opposite of what I am stating.My comment to Sallyb (taken out of context)
There is no more reason to accept blame for the actions of others, (or to attribute it to an entire religion) than there is to accept credit if they do something good.
Rabbit says, “Well why would you say that? You are blaming entire countries and a whole religion for acts caried out by a few extremists from one religion.”
—————————-
Absolutely NOT what I am saying.I was saying that Sallyb should not feel ashamed for what somebody else did just because she is a Christian.
Slow down, mellow out and read a bit more carefully. If you can misinterpret a simple statement like this and drag it into an entirely different discussion, perhaps you can see why I question your many “proofs.”
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 25, 2006 at 3:35 PM WTH- I’m generalizing but I’m sure you can hear my laughter because people from Cleveland like to laugh loudly and I’m from Cleveland. If I was from Ohio I might not have a sense of humor because Ohio is not in Cleveland.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 25, 2006 at 11:42 PM WTH and Rabbit,
I’m happy as a lark, because I have been absolved of the whole
bloody mess.I don’t have to carry anyone else’s shame.!!
Good deal! I’m going to have a glass of wine and celebrate.
Don’t pull me down with your dirty deeds you dirty little boogers!!
lol
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 25, 2006 at 11:46 PM WTH
These are your words exactly:
There is no more reason to accept blame for the actions of others, (or to attribute it to an entire religion) than there is to accept credit if they do something good.
So how is it wrong to relate this to the attacking of entire countries or a religion on the basis of what some Muslims have done?
Do you mean only Christians shouldn’t be judged on the actions of others? You are either for collective punishment or you are not.
WTH, the dangers of believing too easily any report, and also of allowing one’s preconceptions to affect one’s judgement are something we have been trying to teach you about. You are using various examp-les of this as if you need to teach us this thing, but I must remind you that you are having to use theoretical examples, because we have not actually been making such mistakes. Those who are experienced in seeking truth via the internet don’t fall into such errors all that often. It is rather quaint that you feel a need to lecture us about it.
Take note please that the numbers of signing statements and the fact that Bush has made more than all other presidents combined, were always understood by the rabbit. The thread shows this, go and read it. You were the one who started to question them and Rabbit soon found the information in detail to make the comparison. So the signing staement issue just shows we do know how to find the facts via the internet. It doesn’t support your case that we are gullible, on the contrary. My dislike of Bush, has not affected my consideration of his actions at all. His actions are what has created my dislike of him. When it comes to speaking of the Bushling and his administration, hyperbole is not really possible. It may sound like it to you, but WTH, you are still struggling to get past your insulated thinking about Islamofascists.
As for reffering to you possibly caring less for the Lebanese Americans than you would for White Americans of European descent , it was a guess and I said so, this makes the accusation I am putting words in your mouth logically redundant. I still think you feel that way by the way. It isn’t hard to guess from your spoonfed bigotry about Muslims. You have gained what you think is an understanding of Islam, from people who seek to demonise them, and you allow yourself to support attacks upon Muslim countries for no other reason than that they are Muslim. You are the one who believes the wars on Iraq, or Lebanon are somehow wars on Islamic Fundamentalism. That these countries are not (or were not) Islamic fundamentalist states, and that they never had anything to do with any terrorism is beside the point to you. Therefore the only thing you have left is that they are Muslims countries and this is why it is justified to attack them. Are you claiming that Israel is just in atackinmg over soldiers captured by an Islamic group? Then you are supporting the collective punishment of the Lebanese, Shia, Sunni, Christian or Druze. It doesn’t get much more simple WTH.
It is true that erroneous information can remain on the internet. It is also true that erroneous information cannot stay on the internet without being challenged, and it is also true that the challenge to erroneous information remains on the internet forever. Invariably the truth tends to displace the falsehood quite quickly and even though some may selectively quote the falseness for their own purpose, they can be debunked as a rule by anyone who tries since the correction is invariably available. For example the Jesse Macbeth video, which few who seek truth were ever fooled by still can be found about the net. Yet it is impossible to do a search for it without being exposed to the truth that it was probably a fake.
Meanwhile you doubted like many that the story of Haditha was true when it broke just afterwards. This time the story was true and by the time it reached the MSM, anybody could have found the facts about the story months earlier, since it was reported on the internet, via local news sources.
Compare the claim that the Iranian PM, Armadinejad, threatened Israel’s destruction which is repeated continually on the MSM, it is still circulating in society as if it is a fact and all manner of talking heads and Media sources are still speaking of it as a fact, a central one even.
The tragedy for those who rely on the MSM, is that it is not true, but that unless the MSM puts out a full and balanced retraction they have no way of knowing it is a lie. It was never true, and was shown to be a fake claim from the start on the internet. True many fools stil recycle the lie as if it is fact, but the truth remains irevocably available to anyone who wishes to find it. The speech by Armadinejad is available on the net and always will be to prove that the great lie about his words is but a lie.
The conclusion is simple, the internet makes it possible for the truth about most news to be found, independantly of the Media mouthpieces. That lies and falsehoods can be reported, is not unique to the internet. The difference is that those who rely on the MSM for news, can seldom know the veracity of what they are being told. Lies and falsehoods are printed and spoken in the MSM every minute of every day. those same lies can circulate indefinately too.
Yet it is they, with the selected news feeds who claim they somehow have more of a grip on reality. That is tragic.
It bears mention that the suggestion to rabbits to calm down etc, is a bit silly. Corpse often does his don’t panic line, not realising how much it seems like projection or just wishful thinking, don’t you start making the same mistake. Let it be known that nobody on this site gets the rabbit excited, except the dishonourable Bat Shill, Natalie. The rest of you are either a pleasure to deal with, a sport to bait or a mild amusement. You’d be surprised to know which category you fall into I’m sure. Actually, I enjoy discussion with you much of the time, for I am at least dealing with someone with moral integrity, and power of reason, though this is often repressed by the difficulty of having to abandon so many preconceptions. This adds a dimension of sympathy to what I feel for you even.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 26, 2006 at 3:01 AM Rabbit-
Not a thing happened to the Diebold employee. He’s alive and well, still
sharing his conservative wisdom on that same message board,
spewing forth vitriolic epithets against all things liberal
for any and all issues, fact or fiction.My daughter received a chilly, “OK. Thank you,”
and luckily for her she hasn’t been placed in chains yet.We wonder if the day will come when this administration
will decide to fill those mysterious new buildings going up,
with the likes of us. I should probably ready my neglected
bag of yarn so I can knit like Madame de Farge as we move
into our Tale of Two Cities rerun.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 26, 2006 at 3:26 AM Sally, Sadly I expected to hear that Not a thing happened to the Diebold employee. He’s alive and well, still sharing his conservative wisdom on that same message board, spewing forth vitriolic epithets ..........
I just think it has all become so surreal, so confoundedly twisted that Lewis Carrol and George Orwell combined could barely have envisioned it between them.
If they did I fear the reviews would have derided their fantasies as having run too far away with them THIS time.
I fear also those mysterious Halliburton concentration camps will be filled up and no doubt overcrowded as usual. Who is there to stop them? Does someone think they would just have Halliburton build the camps for the sake of giving the national treasure away like usual? They already can do that on a grand scale in Iraq and Aghanistan, where they can give lots more loot to Halliburton, and Halliburton do not even have to much of anything for it. On the homefront they need to be seen to do something and can be seen doing it, or not. In this case they are also actually doing the job they’ve been contracted, and for what might turn out to seem bargain prices. The camps are certainly recorded as real.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 26, 2006 at 6:22 AM Rabbit says,
“These are your words exactly:
There is no more reason to accept blame for the actions of others, (or to attribute it to an entire religion) than there is to accept credit if they do something good.”
YES! These are my words EXACTLY.
They were addressed to Sallyb specifically in regard to her feeling ashamed by what some idiots acting under the name of Christians did in Mississippi. I do not believe in collective guilt for what some people (who claim the name “Christian”) did.
———————————& ———————-
Then Rabbit went on:
“So how is it wrong to relate this to the attacking of entire countries or a religion on the basis of what some Muslims have done?
Do you mean only Christians shouldn’t be judged on the actions of others? You are either for collective punishment or you are not.”——————————— ;———————-
My comment is not about punishment. It is about accepting guilt. It was not about the war. It was about a specific incident. It had to do with Sally feeling guilty because she is a Christian and the group behavior in Mississippi were also said to be Christians.
It was wrong only if you attibute from me to some other issue. You are free to do so in your name if you wish to.
I contend that she should not be blamed for what they did. And she should not accept credit if that group wins a Nobel prize. :-)
WTH
———————————& ———————-Rabbit then said,
“Take note please that the numbers of signing statements and the fact that Bush has made more than all other presidents combined, were always understood by the rabbit. The thread shows this, go and read it. You were the one who started to question them and Rabbit soon found the information in detail to make the comparison.
So the signing staement issue just shows we do know how to find the facts via the internet. It doesn’t support your case that we are gullible, on the contrary.——————————— ;———————-
On the contrary?
Yes — on the contrary. There is a difference between the number of statements and the number of challenges as in the Presidential usage reference below.
“As of 2006, George W. Bush has issued over 130 signing statements containing more than 750 constitutional challenges. [3]”
This is my whole point about acceptance of internet reliability.620 or a margin of error of 82%.
Above quote from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signing_statement
Presidential usage
The first president to issue a signing statement was James Monroe.[2] Until the 1980s, with some exceptions, signing statements were generally triumphal, rhetorical, or political proclamations and went mostly unannounced. Until Ronald Reagan became President, only 75 statements had been issued. Reagan and his successors George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton made 247 signing statements between them. As of 2006, George W. Bush has issued over 130 signing statements containing more than 750 constitutional challenges. [3]——————————— ;———————-
Sorry, no interest in discussing the Macbeth video —I read the book. “Out damned spot.”Over and out, WTH
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 26, 2006 at 1:10 PM WTH
You are not making any sense in trying to ignore the consequences of your statement about collective collective guilt in the context of your justifications of the attacks against Afghanistan, Iraq or Lebanon as elements of a war on Islamic fundamentalism. Your denials lack that assurance your words have when you know you are right anyway. I never meant it as a criticism so much, just an opportunity to bring your own stated moral convictions into line with reality on the ground as I always am. You attribute the worst motives to the rabbit since you think he is a harsh and cruel beast. It is just that the rabbit is bullshit challenged. Being unable to bullshit in the way which is needed for normal everyday “conversation”, this rodent tends to say it how it is, without many apologies. You know by now I can admit mistakes, but I cannot think of an occasion when you did the same, can you WTH? Maybe that truth could have been put more delicately but that is unfortunately where my social skills are lacking somewhat.
You can stay in that moral pit you have dug yourself, and pretend this is in some way drawing too long a bow, or taking your words out of context, if that is your choice. As if saying them to Sally in itself makes any difference, do you give different opinions to different folks or something? Like I asked is the example different for Christians and Muslims or Jews? Then why cannot I pose the query to you as I have repeatedly done, How do you justify the military destruction of one, two, three countries so far on the back of a claim that you are fighting Islamic Fundamentalism? The populations nor the governments of any of those countries were involved to any degree with Islamic Fundamentalist terror. Yet you have trashed three countries and killed a half million people more or less so far whose only connection to your stated enemy was that they shared the religion of Islam, IF EVEN THAT MUCH!
FROM ABA article above.
The task force said the statements suggest the president will decline to enforce some laws. Bush has had more than 800 signing statement challenges, compared with about 600 signing statements combined for all other presidents, the group said.
Your point is? Can we just call it a semantic victory for you WTH? The fact remains that all of the Bush’s ~800 suspect things have exceeded the combined total of previous president’s ~600 suspect things.
How does your obsession with the exact definition of what they are counting alter the basic point which the whole issue is showing? Bush is basically a law unto himself, something which in any other country is called a dictatorship. This was the point of the issue about signing statments. The exact definition of how they are counted, is very interesting WTH, and it is wonderful you did what people do on the net and help starighten out such issues. Don’t be too reliant on Wikipedia WTH, current political issues change the articles fast on that site and it is subject to considerable input/pressure from the usual suspects. Half of what I have seen in Wikipedia has proven to be incorrect.
It is not a difference of 620 or 82% as you claim, it is a difference in semantics, the point of the matter always was to compare the Bushling to the others. The comparison never changed from the first article to the ABA legal action You have steadfastly refused to confront the point it illustrated that Bushling is a law unto himself. Instead you have focused on the semantic iinterpretations of signing statements. Rabbit is calling them “suspect things”, and saying Bushling has 800 to the others’ 600. This was the point I understood from the original article, I don’t know about you. The numbers were always ill defined but their scale of comparison was not.
All you are proving here is to what lengths of semantic sophistry one of the “partly” deluded is prepared to go in order to face up to the uncomfortable truth that their leader is not democratically inclined.
You keep going on about the Supreme court ruling, but three weeks later, things hadn’t changed in GITMO, and although the whole thing is falling apart, releasing more and more people who have been held for years and tortured invariably, due to failures to find anything at all to charge them with, that can hardly be counted in their favour at this stage of the game. None of the increasingly wild and unprovoked assaults upon weak nations who are no threat but who are sitting upon massive resources you covet are lessening in intensity nor in the unparralleled savagery of their excecution.
You are looking for reasons to keep whistling in the dark I’d say. The extraordnary thing is you can see the immediate problems you are facing, but you cannot extend your thinking enough to encompass the whole picture, so you keep looking outward to some imaginary scenario for a cause. Still while you can see the failure of the adminstration on every front for which you have any experienceto judge them, you yet seem to have some sort of simple faith that their performance on the international stage is their redeeming feature, for it is the only policies of these lunatics you support, and then with rabid intensity.
You can’t really kidnap lots of innocent people who were just going about their business in another country which never bothered you before, torture them while holding them in conditions outside all humanitarian laws and conventions, incommunicado for a few years then when your own legal system finally makes your political position untenable for now release them, and expect credit for it since you released them finally. Not out in the real world you sure as hell can’t.
Mate I hate to tell you this, but the USA could release every foreign prisoner they are holding all over the world, who they have no reason to hold, pull their troops out of every country where thay are currently stationed in unwelcome circumstances, and still remain top of the archtypes of evil empires for a half dozen generations.
Thanks largely to the efforts of one man if a face was to be put to it.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 27, 2006 at 3:33 AM I wasn’t suggesting we discuss the Macbeth video! My contention, and the example is valid in this case, is that the Macbeth misinformation may remain available on the Internet forever, as you rightly decry but as I pointed out with the Macbeth example the truth about it’s misinformation nature will follow it just as long.
Must the rabbit give you a context for this point now as well?
Better safe than sorry I suppose.
Erroneous information is no more intrinsically a problem on the internet than via any other media. In fact it is clearly, by my point above, less of a problem, since the veracity or otherwise of something on the net can be researched instantly with complete assurance of finding the truth in most cases if one desires it.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 27, 2006 at 4:14 AM Rabbit say,
“Your point is? Can we just call it a semantic victory for you WTH? The fact remains that all of the Bush’s ~800 suspect things have exceeded the combined total of previous president’s ~600 suspect things.”
———————————<
NO! Because that is incorrect.Look — Here it is, one more time only.
1. Signing Statements are the whole statement regarding a single law.
2. The number of Challenges are contained within the whole Signing Statement.Above are two sentences. The first (1) sentence contains 10 words. The second (2) sentence contains 11 words.
Now there are STILL only two sentences (think Signing Statements), but together they contain 22 words (think Challenges).
The people who were claiming 750 Signing Statements by Bush should have used the 130 (Signing Statements)number when comparing Signing Statements NOT the 750 Challenges, since they had no total number of Challenges for the other presidents. In other words they were comparing the number of Bush Challenges to the number of Signing Statements for all other presidents.
Example: A person owns a car. His car has four wheels. He then owns 4 wheels. A person may own four cars. He then owns 16 wheels. That is NOT a semantic difference.
Now, if that makes no sense to you — I give up.
Note: I am making no excuses for the use of Signing statements by ANY president. I believe the tactic should be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court (as they did on the specific ones dealing with the torture bill). A president should use his veto and not sign if he objects to any bill. Congress has been neglecting their duty to oversee the Executive branch. This must change and November’s election will likely do just that.
——————————— ;-
Rabbit’s comment:“You can stay in that moral pit you have dug yourself, and pretend this is in some way drawing too long a bow, or taking your words out of context, if that is your choice. As if saying them to Sally in itself makes any difference, do you give different opinions to different folks or something?”
Unbelievable!
They were said to Sally. YOU took them from there and went elsewhere. Who I say something to DOES make a difference. If I were to propose to Sally, I would not expect to honeymoon with YOU! (Just an example since I don’t think my wife would go for the idea.) ;-)
———————————& ——-OK, if you want to discuss collective guilt regarding the ME, that’s just fine.
It may come as a surprise, but I do not make US. policy. If I did and I chose to depose Saddam (which I favored), we would not have gone in with fewer than the 500,000 troops the CENTCOM plan called for. We would have gone with a coalition of at least that number as an enforcement of U.N. Resolution 1441.
If that were not feasible, I would not have sent troops at all, but have used the lesser of the three CENTCOM plans which called for arming the Shiites in the south and the Kurds in the north and giving them air support. I would NEVER have set democratization as a goal. After the Shia and Kurds got rid of Saddam I would have let them split the country into two parts or whatever they wanted.
Even though the Rumsfeld plan (125,000 troops) has made a mess of this and I regret what is the current situation, I do not feel guilty, only sad.
As you know, I do believe this is a war of radical Islamists against the rest of the world. It is NOT a U.S./Iraq/Afghan war — those are battle zones. I firmly believe this has been going on for a long time and will continue for even longer. Western nations have short time horizons and easterners are much more patient. The Russians lost in Afghanistan because they were unwilling to fight to the last man — unlike their opponents.
I don’t remember where I read it, but it was attributed to an Islamist, “You love life more than death and we love death more than we love life.” Kind of makes reasonable settlement a bit difficult.
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 27, 2006 at 1:19 PM We are no longer talking about signing statements WTH, we are calling them suspect things and thus removing your semantic legs.
So for your sake, here IT is again.
FROM ABA article above.
The task force said the statements suggest the president will decline to enforce some laws. Bush has had more than 800 signing statement challenges, compared with about 600 signing statements combined for all other presidents, the group said.
You are swinging about like a mad monkey in denial. I don’t care what you want to call them, the comparison of apples with apples, gives 800 to Bush, compared to 600 of all other presidents combined. According to the ABA. You are patently caught up in ridiculous semantic arguments still and denying it doesn’t make it so.
Wikipedia article has altered since you were last there by the way. I told you as much.
Proving once again that you cannot face up to the implication so you go after the semantic definition.
Past POTUS’ might have made a single signing statement which challenged on a single constitutional basis. Bush’s signings on the other hand might involve a dozen challenges in a single statement.
800 signing statement challenges, compared with about 600 signing statements combined for all other presidents, you are wasting your time waffling on about exactly how the signing statements are tallied.
You have been granted a semantic victory, that is all. The comparison of “suspect things” was right from the start, you stubborn fellow. AND it isn’t 750, it is closer to 800 according to the ABA.
Your denial of the meaning your words to Sally have upon your own illusions about Muslim Terrorists, is quite despicable. It is a prime example of someone indulging in double standards and bald faced hypocrisy having been caught out contradicting their own views. Trying now to compare a statement of moral correctness, with a marriage proposal? It makes me sad to see someone who is not a complete moron, acting like one.
You have a problem understanding logical reasoning and I can only put it down to a poor education or mental degradation.
Keep on wriggling by all means, but nobody could take your denials seriously.
You say:
As you know, I do believe this is a war of radical Islamists against the rest of the world
We do indeed know this is what you believe. We also know why you believe it. You believe it because you have been told to believe it, it is the official reason for these wars, Bush says so, and you parrot it like a good dittohead.
The fact remains that several hundred thousand Muslims have now been the direct casualties of this war. They are being collectively punished for the actions of a few extremists, you can’t spin that any other way. You think it would have been a better idea to have used more troops do you? That way even more Muslims could have been killed by now, in the collective punishment you are meting out. Great idea WTH. The cost of what was inevitably a failure would simply have been higher with more troops you dill. You cannot win these kind of wars of occupation, history says so.
Besides which the US history of military intervention is enough to make any claim you could win any such war farcical. You fight a lot of wars, but you invariably lose, that is just the simple history. Of course once you lose and finally pull out your troops, things usually start to settle down and a few years later idiots like you try to claim the assault by the USA somehow helped bring about the better situation. The fact is that nations who are assaulted by the USA eventually beat you avaricious hubris filled McDonalds invaders back, and then manage to rebuild what you destroyed and create a better future, despite your efforts not because of them.
I don’t know what price you sold your soul for, but it was too cheap at any price.
Since the Radical Christian Zionist element is obviously controlled from the USA, in time the world is going to have to attack and kill a lot of Americans in order to reduce this danger to the world.
I do hope you accept that collective punishment will still be OK then.
This is so dumb:
don’t remember where I read it, but it was attributed to an Islamist, “You love life more than death and we love death more than we love life”. Kind of makes reasonable settlement a bit difficult.
Why? The person was no doubt referring to expelling you from his land, and pointing out their trust in God. There are actually many religions who claim to love death more than life, and Christianity is one of them. Christians are taught to to not fear their deaths for it is the doorway to God’s presence. It simply comes down to how you say it, and in your case how you choose to interpret it. They are taught furthermore as are many religions that life is full of suffering and misery. For the Muslim who might have uttered your quote, since his life was probably of subjugation and suffering at the hands of such as your army, I’d say his sentiments are entirely reasonable. Seems a lot to expect him to love living under your brutality more than he might love being in the presence of his God and in Paradise I’d say. As always you use words like you are debating, but all you do is run round in diminishing rhetorical circles.
You need to come up with better than that anyway, it is hearsay and you might as well have made it up. You are conveniently forgetting that the Muslims who speak like this are not referring to attacking or invading anyone. They are talking about defending their homelands you turkey. So what if their faith makes them unafraid to die in the service of righteousness? That isn’t unique at all.
If you can find an actual quote by an Islamic Extremist which is referring to fighting a war for any other reason than to defend their land, then by all means produce it.
I am telling you categorically, you are not fighting Islamic Extremism. You are fighting Muslims and labelling them Islamic Extremists for convenience. You are fighting them because your master, Israel has demanded it and ostensibly to control the resources belonging to those muslims. Lest we forget the Islamic Extremists in Iraq, are the very force you have put into power and who you are fighting side by side with. You are fighting against the Sunni resistance. Don’t be forgetting little WTH that the USA suplied and trained Al-Qaeda to fight the Russians. The Russians lost because they were financially ruined by the War in Afghanistan. I’d say they were probably prepared to lose more men than the USA is and what about your scenario just described leads you to believe you can win? What will winning look like? Since the situation in Afghanistan and Iraq is worsening by the day, when do you think you might be winning?
In the wider picture, since the extremism of which you speak is entirely areaction to your military destruction of Muslim and Arab lands, you are the actual creators of Islamic Extremism, you are ts enablers and its excuse. What is most shocking to me is that the nactions of the USA and Israel have become so blatantly evil and inhumane, that no Islamic Extremism seems wrong anymore.You have given the worst of them relative justification to go after YOU in and ME in our own homes.
Islamic Extremists are not even close to being guilty of the scale of atrocities as the Zionist American raiders. They are much more humane and decent than you. It is that simple.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 28, 2006 at 1:33 AM I assume that the killing of innocent civilians is what makes someone a terrorist WTH. How many innocent civilians have been killed by Islamic Extremists to make them qualify?
How many innocent civilians must be killed by America and Israel before they could be considered to be practising Terrorism? So far with in excess of a half million you obviously don’t consider them to have crossed the line. I remind you again, that the Islamic Extremists, the Shia of Iraq are the ones you are supporting. Al-CIA duh isn’t seriously involved in any of the conflicts you are fighting by the way.
It is so hard to prove you are a hypocrite and sometimes a moron, that I shall do so again now for sport.
One of those misinformation issues we were discussing before, is that the Iranian PM, Armadinejad threatened to destroy Israel. The claim has been repeated over and over in the MSM and various internet sites, and being the gullible suckers they are, dittoheads like to claim this is a fact, and proof that Iran is a clear and present danger.
The claim that Armadinjad threatened to wipe Israel off the map, is bullshit, but I’ll bet you still spout it as fact. Is that not so WTH? You do still make a habit of believing outright whatever suits your preconceptions do you not? Tell us about Mr Armadinejad please so we can see the proof of this.
Also I want to see some actual quotes by actual Muslim Extremists which are threatening to destroy you or your freedoms. Or else we will have to conclude you are just buying the false propaganda without question.
A quote which simply says they are unafraid to die if they defend their freedom or faith from attack, is nothing but a staement of piousness, and not an extremist comment.
Allah-u-akbar. I say again, Allah-u-akbar. Did that scare you WTH? Allah-u-akbar. NINNY!
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 28, 2006 at 3:23 AM WTH
If Hezbollah had bombed a UN base and killed four UN observers, would you call that terrorism?
What about bombing a Milk factory does that class as terrorism?
I ask because Isarel has done both in the last few days in this so called war on terror.
What about targeting Red Cross ambulances WTH, is that something terrorists do? Israel has fired missiles right through the center of the red crosses on two ambulances, dead center like it was a target. Then they strafed those same ambulances.
Of course that was just a mistake wasn’t it WTH? Like the UN post was a mistake I suppose? and the Bridges, hospitals and fleeing civilian vehicles following the orders to flee which have been targeted? Are they also accidents WTH?
Funny how Hezbollah can use it’s primitiv weapons and manage to kill far more soldiers than civilians while Israel doesn’t seem able to hit anything else. Let’s look at the figures WTH.
The toll
Lebanese
Yesterday
Civilian deaths 8
Hizbullah deaths 0
Since outbreak
Military deaths 66
Civilian deaths 377
Wounded 1,550+
Israeli
Yesterday
Civilian deaths 0
Military deaths 4
Since outbreak
Military deaths 24
Civilian deaths 17
Wounded 360+
Looking at those figures one gets the impression that Hezbollah are a professional military organisation, and the IDF is a terrorist army WTH. The facts on the ground support this contention. The only thing which stands in the way of this interpretation is hollow rhetorical denial from people like you. You are the defenders of atrocities. Now it is time for you to make excuses as to why Israel and the USA are still the good guys here. Let’s see you selling your soul some more old boy.
1. Israel says that the Lebanese government is in violation of UN resolutions that require the Lebanese government to exercise state sovereignty in southern Lebanon, and disarm the militias.
We ask:
Since when does Israel comply with UN resolutions?
Since when does Israel respect state sovereignty?
2. Hizbullah is denounced as a “terrorist” organization by the army that it defeated.We ask:
Since its founding in 1982, how many non-combatant Israeli civilians has Hizbullah killed?
In that same period, how many non-combatant Lebanese civilians have the Israeli forces killed?
3. Hizbullah is accused of having raided into sovereign Israeli territory and attacked and killed and captured Israeli soldiers on border patrol.We ask:
Since its founding, how many Israeli soldiers has Hizbullah killed inside Israel?
How many Israeli soldiers has Hizbullah killed inside Lebanon?
How many Lebanese, captured by Israel inside Lebanon, is Israel holding?
4. Hizbullah has weapons that go beyond the traditional guerrilla arsenal, obviously supplied to it by Syria or Iran or both. At the same time, the Lebanese state has no air defences to speak of, and its armed forces play no role in defending the people of Lebanon.We ask:
Why shouldn’t a guerrilla organization, operating in southern Lebanon, have weapons, including longer-range rockets? Is Lebanon not threatened by its southern “neighbour”?
Aren’t the Israeli forces fully armed, in fact, better armed?
5. The idea that, alongside Israel there should be a “demilitarized Palestinian state” (Geneva Agreement) or a Lebanon armed only with rifles, is an idea that goes hand-in-hand with domination and subjugation. In any war, each side seeks to disarm, dominate and subjugate the other, and each side seeks the weapons that are appropriate for that purpose.We ask:
So, what is Israel’s complaint?
Which states are the suppliers of Israel’s arsenal? Who supplies what?
Israeli Chief of Staff Dan Halutz said that Israel is “changing the rules of the game” in Lebanon, and warned that “nothing is safe in Lebanon, as simple as that”. But, everyone knows that what goes around comes around. That is why people are fleeing Haifa southward or taking cover in fortified rooms. The lives of Israeli non-combatant civilians are of no concern to Halutz. Nor are the lives of Israeli soldiers captured in battle. All are victims of Israeli militarism.Isn’t using Biological and chemical weapons supposed to be bad WTH? Why then is Israel using them?
Your hypocrisy stands bare for all to see. You can support the IDF but in doing so you are supporting the actual terrorists. Terrorist is as terrorist does. Don’t come out and blindly claim that Israel is accidently destroying the entire country of Lebanon, the Israelis have already said they will atack anything at all in Lebanon. They don’t actually pretend to be good guys even, except in your own homegrown media.
You should have alook at some Israeli discussion forums. If you want to see hatred and incitement to atrocities and mass and indiscriminate violence, that is where you will find it in spades. In fact I find Zionist forums to be so disgustingly hateful and vicious that they make me physically sick in the stomach.
I have searched the internet now for years seeking some similar such hate speech by Muslims, so far without success.
You don’t have a leg to stand on in your ridiculous delusions about Islamic Extremists WTH. You cannot show us any proof your much vaunted, mickey mouse military actually fighting real extremists, you saying it’s so is nothing.
You just attack Muslim countries and then label the resistance as Islamic Extremism. If anybody else behaved so churlishly you would be disgusted but here you are gobbling and swallowing the proven bullshit as if it’s candy and what comes out of your mouth is shiny bubbles of truth when it is just fart gas.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 28, 2006 at 4:33 AM I am getting a bit sick of your belly crawling excuses for Israel WTH. You have busily made excuses for their atack on the USS Liberty before, claiming mistaken identity, which was the official lie at the time.
Read the official report then sir denial!
The weather was clear and calm in the area at the time of attack and throughout the preceding hours of June . Visibility was excellent.
At all times prior to the attack the Liberty was flying her normal size American flag (five feet by eight feet) at the masthead. The flag was shot down during the air attack and was replaced by a second American flag (seven feet by thirteen feet) five minutes prior to the attack by motor torpedo boats. The Liberty did not endeavor to hide her identity or her presence in international waters at any time prior to or during the attack.The Liberty’s U.S. Navy distinguishing letters and number were printed clearly on her bow. The Liberty’s number was painted clearly in English on her stern. (Egyptian naval ships such as the El Quseir, with which the Liberty was allegedly confused, carry their names in Arabic script.)
The ship’s configuration and her standard markings were clearly sufficient for reconnaissance aircraft and waterborne vessels to identify her correctly as the noncombatant ship Liberty.
Here is one Clark missed.
Initially, USS Liberty was unable to call for assistance because Israel was jamming the frequencies US warships use to communicate. If the Israelis really thought the USS Liberty was an Egyptian ship, why were they jamming US frequencies?It was no accident. The IDF is not in the habit of attacking anybody by accident, the USS Liberty was as deliberate as the attack on the UN, the Ambulances, the fleeing civilians, the Christian Lebanese houses, and the Milk factory. The overall pattern is of a country which consistently shits on international law and all rules of humanity.
These Israelis are actually even more monstrous than your own totally out of control military machine. Do you realise WTH that the sorts of atrocities we are reading about on a daily basis are the sorts of things which are referred to when people speak of Nazi or Japanese atrocities in WWII? Do you think that there is something different between an American or Israeli strike on an ambulance, or the slaughter of civilians or the rape of civilians, is different to Pol Pot’s regime doing the same?
Why exactly was Saddam Huessein bad again? Didn’t it have to do with him killing lots of Iraqis?
What makes you better than Saddam Hussein now that you have vastly exceeded his total of Iraqis killed?
I guess that’s why most Iraqis now feel they were better off under Saddam. God job WTH, you are really doing lots for freedom and democracy in the ME. Never mind that you are supporting the destruction of the two latest examples of democracy at work in the ME. The democratic election of Hamas by Palestine and the supposedly exemplary democratic progress of Lebanon.
On top of destroying these two democracies, about the only two in the ME, you have expelled the most secular government and resistance to Islamic extremism, in Saddams Baath regime, and installed an Islamic fundamentalist regime in its place.
Good work, what a grand achievement. You think a few hundred thousand more troops would do it do you? Probbaly a lot more bombs would be needed too WTH. Once you start creating democracy with Bombs and bullets, it just seems like there are never enough bombs and bullets for the job for some reason. How odd that is eh?
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 28, 2006 at 5:37 AM WTH
Israel has ben ignoring UN resolutions since 1948.
And been allowed to get away with it.Israel has always got away with murder and continues to do so-Irish officer warns Israel of danger to observers—Reuters
Have you yet again forgotten the USS Liberty ?
OR have you never started thinking about it ?Last saturday was the 60th Anniversary Celebration of the King David Hotel Bombing by Irgun.
Substitute Hizbullah for Irgun , and see what you get.
On many occasions I have realised years later that I had been taken in by propaganda, or just lazily allowed disinfo to flow past me unquestioned.
Not easy to question long-held assumptions , but healthier to accept my own errors of appreciation than to fight desperately against the facts.CUI BONO ?
Who benefits from the fact that you believe that we are in a Long War of Civilisations and religions ?
Posted by frog on Jul 28, 2006 at 6:03 AM WTH
Some duplication here between the hoppers, excuses. Was doing a slow early-morning post ...Carefully Compare the US erstwhile faithful ally Karimov of Uzbekistan with Saddam, and then have a think about which was worse in the scale of Awful Dictators ...
Posted by frog on Jul 28, 2006 at 7:07 AM Frog asked,
“Who benefits from the fact that you believe that we are in a Long War of Civilisations and religions ?”
No one. But then, no one benefits from any of this discussion. Anyone who thinks our comments are of any consequence is delusional. We are just exchanging viewpoints.
I will assume your lack of comment on the Sallyb — non-guilt and the Signing Statements/Signing Challenges to mean you understand the relevance of both.
WTH
———————————& ————-Rabbit,
You seem to think this is a contest of some sort. (In which you make the rules and decide the point scoring.) The ABA quote you just repeated is correct — you just refuse to examine and think.
They are talking about the total number of “challenges” and their sum for the other presidents is the only one I have seen. All other accounts picked up the Bush 750 Challenges total (which was in April) and compared it to the Signing Statement totals of the rest of the presidents.
I am beginning to think Rabbit is really a radical Muslim since he is so intent on holding to his accepted “facts.” To paraphrase, “He loves facts more than he loves truth.”
———————————& ———————————-Be happy with your beliefs, your proofs and enjoy your contest.
I quit.
P.S.re: U.S. wars
We can all be happy that the U.S. beat Great Britain in the 16th and 17th centuries or we may have ended up as next door neighbors. Much better to confront these things at a safe distance.
Cheers,
WTH :-)
Posted by whattheheck on Jul 28, 2006 at 12:43 PM No WTH you got Frogs question wrong you silly fellow, and it was an easy one too.!
Who else gains but the administration which needed 9/11 as an excuse to attack a couple of countries they had planned years earlier to attack. They never made any secret of it, read PNAC and you will see the whole script laid out. They also benefit from the fact that you will not do that. Nothing more helpful to the Bush Junta than that final hard core of deluded sheeple who will believe anything they say and keep on repeating it for them. Bah Bah. Bad Muslims did it, Bah bah. We have to fight for our freedoms, bah bah.
If you realised, like informed people do, that there is no Islamic Extremism in the sense that you are being fed, then the Junta would lose one more supporter for its unending war. It is you dittoheads who parrot the lies as if it is manna from heaven, which gives the most atrocious administration in US history an air of legitimacy.
They are wrong in everything they do, but even they don’t believe the rubbish they sell to you. Otherwise you poor sod, why do they cosy up to the Saudis so, who are the biggest supporters of Islamic Fundamentalist groups? They are the only country seemingly involved in 9/11, all the hijackers came form there. Yet the same admin was happy to sell your ports to the Saudis. Isn’t there just a tiny bit of inconsistency there?
The admin benefits from people too stupid, lazy or frightened to know the truth. Nothing good comes from anything so bad as the current admin, WTH, that’s just a universal law anyway.
WTH you are still carrying on about signing statements, when I completely put the issue into perspective right back at the start. The only thing you have established is that the word signing statement was used somewhat loosely in the first instance when the news was first breaking, as I said back then, most people had never heard of such things before, so some adjustment in terminology was in order.
Thats semantics, because the things of which they were speaking were only being mentioned in relation to former presidents, a comparison was being made, of Bush’s 750 (now 800) “suspect things” with the 600 “suspect things” of the former accumalated. The comparison remains correct, fom the first article to now, and that is a fact.
That my dear WTH, is a semantic victory for you. Hooray!
If my facts are right, what is wrong with holding onto them WTH? I don’t use the term Signing Statements anymore and have not done since establishing the actual meanings around July 4th.
The facts, ie: the numbers of these things as being more than all others combined was the whole point of the signing statements issue in the first place, and all your semantic dancing has changed not this thing. They are still at 800.You have managed to alert us to the way in which these things are defined, but you have not altered the number of SUSPECT THINGS.
These still stand at 800, and the remainder are tallied at 600. The truth is that Bush has made more “suspect signing things” than all other presidents combined. That is all I am interested in actually, and have shown this all along. The fact is that the term signing statements was used carelessly by some reporters. That is all you apparently care about.
So who is it who loves facts more than the truth?It is not a competition, or it is, however you define a debate, or argument. But if it is a competition, then I guess you get second place. The things which were being refferred to in the original article may have been incorrectly labelled as signing statements, a semantic error, but the comparison of the number with past presidents remains accurate, and you have altered nothing but the name given to them.
That is the definition of SEMANTICS.By virtue of the fact that we can establish the actual numbers, and your semantic point as well, this is testimony to the power of the internet, by the way. Touche!
Frog would you please give us the benefit of your judgement of WTH’s proposal to Sally and his semantic argument? It seems he is assuming your silence is agreement.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 28, 2006 at 3:24 PM WTH it is noticeable that you are sticking to your piddly little semantics while all the while ignoring the far more substantive argument about Israel, Islamic extremism and the WOT.
Is there any reason for that other than an inability to face up to the truth?
A number of specific questions were put to you, and I am interested to see how you go about wriggling out of the quandary their answers will create for your funny ideas. It makes me sad that you always run away from the real issues with silly little matters like the signing statements, when the whole point was always Bush’s behaviour. The much more important issues of Israel and Islam you have gone to extraordinary lengths of logical discord to avoid. You don’t have to accept that it is the same rules for Christians as for Muslims when it comes to collective punishment if you don’t wish. But you never even said this, you merely implied it by denying your words to Sally could apply to the situation of Islam and your so called extremists. Some very valid points have been made, regarding exactly what you are doing in the ME, ie: creating and supporting Islamic Extremism, and also the points have been made that the lions share of the killing of innocents, as well as acts of terror under any other name, have been done by Israel and the USA.
You are the ones killing the most civilians. You are the ones who are destroying the entire infrastructure of countries who never threatened you in any way. You are the ones bombing hospitals, churches,. schools, ambulances and UN observers. The Arabs are not doing these things, that is as simple as it gets. The worst you can come up with is that some Muslims who are fighting to defend their countries from you, have beheaded some captives, soldiers and mercenaries mostly. Is it worse to cut off a soldiers head than it is to blow off a childs head with a cruise missile WTH? I guess it must be, because despite blowing off the heads of tens of thousands of childrens’ heads, you are telling us you are better than those Arabs cutting off the heads of a handful of soldiers.
Why are you better WTH? Is it because your bombs cost more and are much more fancy than an old sword?
Is it because the person dropping them cannot see the children whose heads are about to be blown into bits?
Why are your bombs which kill thousands of innocents not as evil as a sword wielded by an angry and vengeful man?
I do understand that you cannot engage these points honestly and retain your illusions, but every time I bring you to the precipice of understanding, you draw away like this. So afraid to actually look critically at what you are spouting off as beliefs. They are not your beliefs really, you have been given them prepackaged and self sustaining by virtue of your psychological need for a foreign enemy to feed your silly good guy / bad guy dichotomy. You are a slave to the propaganda, you are doing all the things you try so hard to claim others are doing wrong. The truth is that our views are consistent with the facts as they are, yours are not. Or else why can you not face the statistics and incidents outlined above.?
For you to retain your illusions you are in a position of having to defend torture, massive civilian death tolls and destruction of civilian infrastructure. You need to ignore the actual results of the Israeli aggression and of the US agressions in Iraq and Afghanistan. You need to ignore the difference between Sunni and Shia on one hand to pretend they are a unified front of Islamic extremists and you have to inflate it on the other to pretend that the ME was always volatile with conflict between such sects.
You need to ignore or make excuses for unforgiveable acts of brutality and deception, and the list goes on and on. Hardly a day goes by when something new doesn’t occur to put your beliefs in to sharp and contradictory relief.
We do not have to do this. We are in tune with facts on the ground. It is not something we have to ignore, or try and excuse every time Israel bombs the UN, or another innocent family. We don’t have to kid ourselves that somehow Iraq is better off now than they were even under the crippling sanctions and stark brutality of Saddam Hussein. We do not have to fool ourselves into believing that Israel accidently put a missile through the crosses of two ambulances and then strafed them both accidentally. We can see the consistency of Israeli actions, going back to 1948 when they first taught the world about violent terrorism, to the attack on the USS Liberty in 1967 and the murder of a family on a beach in Gaza in 2006. We don’t have to fool ourselves into believing that the weakest and most backward nations in the world, are somehow a threat to our existence.
You need to do all these things and more. You will keep on having to make excuses for atrocities and seeking in vain for any real Islamic Terrorism.
When are you going to wake up to the fact that you are sitting inside Germany and it is 1939, and NO you are NOT the master race.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 28, 2006 at 4:27 PM Bushling trying to insulate himself from War Crimes. If he can stop the prosecution of the lower echelons no doubt he thinks that will extend to the higher ups. Nobody can accuse the man of being a legal genius that’s for sure.
There is a consistency to simply overriding and vetoing and ignoring everything which he doesn’t agree with. There is this consistency in his supporter base too of course. Yes, consistency is something, possibly the only thing, this admin has excelled at.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 29, 2006 at 3:44 AM I just finished reading a fictional story by Belgian author, Anne Provoost, titled In the Shadow of the Ark. It’s a different approach, looking through the eyes of those who are not chosen to be saved from the flood which was sent to rid the world of evil. If you have ever suffered and wondered , with in all humble innocence, what you could have done to deserve that suffering, then you have some idea the question of “Why me?”
I’m telling this because even though I think the wars in the Middle East were started for political reasons, the media now say are religious conflict. The irony for me in reading this story is in the last two sentences of the book, “The flood did not wipe out evil. To this day, the fight between the Semites and the descendants of Canaan continues.”
It is obvious who the U. S. has favored for decades. Any fool can know the millions of dollars poured into Israel, but for what noble purpose? Military buildup? Unfortunately, yes. And today, the U. S. has signed on to authorize the sales of billions of dollars worth of military goods to M.E. countries. That’s a humanitarian effort toward “peace.” Hooray! Not only is the U. S. a super power, it is a super hero for peace.
Forgive me as I quote Provoost again. “The flood did not wipe out evil. To this day, the fight . . . continues.
That, my friends, is not fictional.
Note to self:
Self,
Be sure to research to identify any and all politicians on the Nov. 7th election ballots who are committed to peace, diplomacy, and respect to mankind. It’s a tough job, but I know you can do it.
Love,
Thyself.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 29, 2006 at 4:25 AM Does the U. S. favor Israel? Here is a satirical piece, which alludes to that premise. Remember this is SATIRE, fiction…
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14224.htm
hmmm… or ....is…it…?
So far, so good.
Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 29, 2006 at 5:25 AM SALLY
A quote from your link above to jerry ghinelli at ICHJohn Bolton, the US Ambassador to the UN, noted that the American casualties from the Israeli raids were not equal to those killed in terrorist attacks, such as those that occurred here on 9/11.
”“” There is no moral equivalence between those killed by a democratically elected government like Israel and those killed by Muslim terrorists, “”“
Bolton emphasized.
reductio ad absurdam…........................
Posted by frog on Jul 29, 2006 at 6:37 AM No the flood didn’t wipe out evil.
Nor I guess will the next conflagration wipe it out, for all the rapturous prophesies. All these things do is thin out the ranks of evil and good alike and hope more good than evil will survive. What’s the odds? I fear luck may play a role.
Thanks for the Satire Sally, but it isn’t all that far out really is it?
This is the most excellent analysis of Islamic resistance I have read. I learnt a lot from reading that I must say.
I dare WTH to read it! It uses the word Jihad a lot, you’ll love it WTH.
For those amongst us who refuse to acknowledge what Islam is all about, I will mention that the Arabic ‘root’ of the word ‘Islam’ is Salama which originates from the words Peace and/or Submission, a submission to God and peace to all humanity.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 29, 2006 at 6:40 AM Somehow, the Wolfowitzes of this world always fail to internalise that human beings are morally orientated creatures. Indeed nations and people can live through some evil phases. Not that many years ago it happened in Germany, it now happens in America. Yet, human beings have something the Wolfowitzes lack. They have an ethical correction mechanism; humans regret their wrongdoing, they have a conscience. America lived through McCarthyism but recovered, it still tries to deal with its racist past and current racial discrimination, it has been dealing with its war crimes in Vietnam. America, no doubt will shake itself of its Zionist murderous phase. It just doesn’t have any other choice. When this happens the Wolfowitzes of this world will have to hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: “Oh American, there is a Wolfowitz behind me, I am scared, take him away! Help, help!”
Posted by frog on Jul 29, 2006 at 7:58 PM It is a good article Frog? The rabbit found it to be quite inspirational.
The message about Arabs fighting more effectively for Islam than for a flag, is an eye opener.
I have been thinking about how it relates to Iran, and this is where I’m at.
Iranians, unlike most other Mid East countries have been a nation for a long time, and they are Persians, not Arabs. Nationalistic fervour is a genuine part of their character, in contrast to Arab countries, where the Islamist connection is more important than the national maybe.
I’d guess Iran is not going to be a pushover, far from it. I’d suggest their combination of Nationalism and Islamic faith, are what has made them such an historically hard nut to crack.
They also have millions of veterans of the eight years war with Iraq, who will sign up to fight in an instant, and each one of them is going to be a soldier of suicidal committment.
How I wonder will the privelaged and pampered soldiers we will send against them fare when the fighting gets up close and personal?
I have known Iranians, veteran soldiers too and I can tell you they had NO respect for Iraqis who they considered to be soft and weak and cowardly. Those same soft, weak and cowardly Iraqis are giving the USA military leviathon a punishing war of attrition which has stopped them in their tracks.
I always expected the situation on the ground now in Iraq, bogged down and slowly being bled dry by Arab resistance.
My prediction for a war with Iran is that we are going to see entire divisions of marines, running for their lives as fast as their vehicles and or feet can take them away from the horror of a Persian suicide charge. They’ll fight for a while but it will soon become apparent that the Iranians are not going to give up, back down or indeed even stop in their headlong rush to drink the blood of the invaders.
The army in Iraq will end up literally running for their lives, all 150,000 of them with several millions of apparently insane berserkers on their tails.
All the bombs and missiles and even Nukes will kill lots of them but they cannot win a war with these. There is no chance that the slaughter of even millions is going to stop the Iranians fighting back with everything they have. Saddam Hussein slaughtered millions of Persions and they just kept on coming, more and more all the time, until Saddam realised if it didn’t end real soon, Iraq was going to be overrun no matter how many Iranians he could kill.
Posted by Rabbit on Jul 30, 2006 at 11:08 AM July Monday 31st 2006 (23h17) :
WORST EVER SECURITY FLAW FOUND IN DIEBOLD TS VOTING MAhttp://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=12817CHINE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Subject: WORST EVER SECURITY FLAW FOUND IN DIEBOLD TS VOTING MACHINE Contact: Alan Dechert Reference: PICTURES (http://www.openvotingfoundation.org/ts/ )
SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA—“This may be the worst security flaw we have seen in touch screen voting machines,” says Open Voting Foundation president, Alan Dechert. Upon examining the inner workings of one of the most popular paperless touch screen voting machines used in public elections in the United States, it has been determined that with the flip of a single switch inside, the machine can behave in a completely different manner compared to the tested and certified version.
“Diebold has made the testing and certification process practically irrelevant,” according to Dechert. “If you have access to these machines and you want to rig an election, anything is possible with the Diebold TS—and it could be done without leaving a trace. All you need is a screwdriver.” This model does not produce a voter verified paper trail so there is no way to check if the voter’s choices are accurately reflected in the tabulation.
Open Voting Foundation is releasing 22 high-resolution close up pictures of the system. This picture, in particular, shows a “BOOT AREA CONFIGURATION” chart painted on the system board.
The most serious issue is the ability to choose between “EPROM” and “FLASH” boot configurations. Both of these memory sources are present. All of the switches in question (JP2, JP3, JP8, SW2 and SW4) are physically present on the board. It is clear that this system can ship with live boot profiles in two locations, and switching back and forth could change literally everything regarding how the machine works and counts votes. This could be done before or after the so-called “Logic And Accuracy Tests”.
A third possible profile could be field-added in minutes and selected in the “external flash” memory location, the interface for which is present on the motherboard.
This is not a minor variation from the previously documented attack point on the newer Diebold TSx. To its credit, the TSx can only contain one boot profile at a time. Diebold has ensured that it is extremely difficult to confirm what code is in a TSx (or TS) at any one time but it is at least theoretically possible to do so. But in the TS, a completely legal and certified set of files can be instantly overridden and illegal uncertified code be made dominant in the system, and then this situation can be reversed leaving the legal code dominant again in a matter of minutes.
“These findings underscore the need for open testing and certification. There is no way such a security vulnerability should be allowed. These systems should be recalled”
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Of course, as we’ve found, there are those who suggest “Who would want to do such a thing?” cough, cough, wink, wink…With that bit of feigned innocence over, dare I suggest it be the ones who won the last two pres. elections?
Posted by sallyb36 on Aug 1, 2006 at 11:37 PM Sallyb36
Back on Topic——your links———
and the pics of circuitry at www.openvotingfoundation.org
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IF ever voting machines were “necessary”, the first criterion would be that they should be as robust and impenetrable as aviation Black Boxes.As far as I can see, the case has never even been made for that “necessity”.
A german friend is a volunteer vote-counter, manual system, in Hamburg, and there it is considered a great privilege.
He was selected at random from the voters’ list about 12 years ago, and is now a team leader.
He does not need the 30Euros they are paid, but it is some compensation for the less well off. The atmosphere is great, and after the count they all go to a local bar and watch the final results on TV.
I wonder what Bill Gates, George Soros, and other “billionaire philanthropists” have to say on this question ?
Posted by frog on Aug 2, 2006 at 5:00 AM Regardless of your leftish or rightish leanings, you should be against computerized voting machines. It doesn’t matter who manufactures them, doesn’t matter if the companies’ governing boards are dominated by Reps, Dems, or Commies.
Computers cannot be made hack-proof. It’s an impossibility. And even in the absence of a desire to steal an election, electronic data is too easy to permanently lose in the event of a system failure. Elections are too important to entrust to highly fallible machines, whether you think deliberate fraud is the agenda, or if you are simply concerned that electoral data ought to be safeguarded.
Ballots should be printed on 100% recycled, preferably unbleached paper. They should be designed so that a voter can make an unequivocal choice (refs those notorious “butterfly” ballots that are said to have confused voters). The ballots should be kept under armed guard, and counted by two separate groups of counters overseen by officials attaced to state and local election boards, backed up by blistering jail sentences in the event of proven fraud or tampering. If the two groups come up with different results, appoint a third group to count again.
It would take longer to report election results using these methods, but accuracy should matter more than the need to get numbers up on the TV networks’ tally boards.
A statement way upthread about non-participation among voters comes to mind. Many of those probably won’t get off their asses to vote no matter what, and maybe that’s good riddance if they’re not willing to do any thinking or to pay any attention to the issues they’d be voting on. But plenty of others, particularly young voters, are becoming cynical and are buying out. The voting machine controversy and the knowledge that the machines have already f’d up vote counts in past elections does not help.
Posted by Kuya on Aug 3, 2006 at 8:48 AM So far it looks like we all pretty much agree on the computer voting machines in spite of our diverse opinions on some other topics. So, maybe there is some hope this will receive the attention it deserves.
Question: Did anyone hear the full story on this…?A couple days ago I turned on my car radio just in time to hear the ending of an electronic voting machine foul-up with a significant ending which shows at a very minimum we need paper backup on all voting.
I did not hear the location or recognize the winner’s name —
In an effort to be fair the order in which candidates names appeared on the ballots, names were shuffled so that each candidate’s name would appear in the top slot equally (in the belief that some people always vote for the first name listed).
The computers did not allow for this and after a recount of the paper, the person who had been in eighth place turned out to be the winner.
I am really curious for the details, but have heard nothing elsewhere on this.
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For any tech believers out there…At least 15 years ago I remember one of my clients expounding on his company’s new computerized inventory control — more efficient, economical and allowed him to fire several warehouse workers. Instead of storing each type of fastener, by size, type, use, etc. in its own location — the computer would let them be placed randomly in any open shelf slot.
Not my expertise, but to me it seemed expensive to buy and install, was complex, required employees to learn a whole new approach and made me wonder if warehouse workers made a lot more per hour than I had realized.
Within a few weeks lightning completely screwed up the system and since all items were randomly shelved nothing could be shipped for a week or more.
Ever try to make an appointment with a hospital or dentist when their computer is down?
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 3, 2006 at 7:22 PM HI WTH,
The same german friend , as before, just above, considered it a great privilege to do the manual vote-counting .
So would I .
First fix that, and then—- or preferably at the same time——work out how to get some real choice to bring back those old values that “commies ! ” like me, and you, agree on !
Off to the pub. to pick up my delivery of goatcheese, of course.
Posted by frog on Aug 3, 2006 at 7:48 PM Frog,
I think Goatcheese was an Apache war chief, right? Sorry, bad joke.
I suspect here have always been those who do their best to “fix” an election. It has shown up in virtually all my reading of history.
Technology and its misuse has given people the ability to do even more damage more efficiently. It reminds me of a book I read about 25 or 30 years ago — Science the Glorious Entertainment, by Jacques Barzun.
He points out how people go camping to “get away” and then end up buying some gadget laden recreational vehicle and spend the weekend fixing its air conditioner while out in the woods.
Enjoy your cheese. (Cochise was the Apache — not sure that play on words would travel well.)
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 4, 2006 at 2:59 PM -
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