Was the Presidential Election Stolen?

Wow WTH,

I guess 10,000 per year makes sense, given all the stuff you’ve bought.  It just seemed like a lot to me, but then again I forget just how much more expensive stuff used to be.

Damn that free market, making us all feel like fools for buying something that a year later costs half as much and has twice the capabilities.

Gosh, saw an ad on TV for a complete Dell system for 299.00.  Tempting, but no, I don’t think so.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the topic, except wait....there was something about computer voting.....I’m covered.

Hey Natalie, The Verbose, who tries to win points with the most words…
I’m not the one who created this plan and announced it to the world.  The neocons themselves came up with it.  So don’t think you win points by passing off your vapid presumptions with your gung-ho bushish words to cover-up the neocons’ agenda.

Surely you have heard of “Progress for a New American Century” or the acronym PNAC.  Look it up for yourself.  Imperialist designs announced by the very innocents you defend.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

And by the way, you have not heard me praise Democratic actions or inactions.  So get off that pedestal.

No, I doubt that I will ever trust Bush as a “good man.” I knew him as our governor when I lived in Texas.  A good man does not laugh about and make fun of the pleas of a prisoner on death row and increase the death penalty to “make his mark.” A good man does not respond to his huge deficit spending upon leaving office in Texas, “That’s the next governor’s problem.” (Similar to what he now says about the Iraq War.) I’ve seen alot of people who are good actors, playing the part of the good man or the good woman.  He should get an academy award for his performance.

This Monday, the U.S. TV news was reporting that Saudia Arabia has still not complied with U.S. government requests to remove slurs in students’ textbooks that promote hatred of the U.S. and Israel.  The U.S. believes it is serious enough to create a terroist mentality in the children, creating future bombers, etc.  Saudi Arabian officials responded that they could only do so much, because they had to cooperate with the desires of their people. 

These are Bush family friends who are allowing hatred to grow and develop toward the U. S.  in the minds of their children.

I do not condone the hatred or the killing but I also wonder what our youth would do if we taught hatred in our textbooks, along with religious fervor that accepted that one religion only; then 10 or 20 years from now another country invaded the U.S., bombed out it’s infrastructure and occupied it.  Would any members of this society commit crimes against its own people?

Sitting smugly, condemning others for what we don’t understand serves no greater purpose.

I’m not the one who created this plan and announced it to the world.  The neocons themselves came up with it.......Surely you have heard of “Progress for a New American Century” or the acronym PNAC.  Look it up for yourself.  Imperialist designs announced by the very innocents you defend.

No, there was no “plan” by Neocons to do what was done after 9/11.  This is another attempt to take things out of context and apply paranoid thinking in order to make sense of the world according to the left.  It’s the same concept that has been applied to come up with an imaginary “bombs in buildings” plan, or “war for oil” plan, or “radioactive vapors encircling the Earth” plan.  What exactly is your definition of Neocon, Sally?

And by the way, you have not heard me praise Democratic actions or inactions.  So get off that pedestal.
No, I doubt that I will ever trust Bush as a “good man.” I knew him as our governor when I lived in Texas.  A good man does not laugh about and make fun of the pleas of a prisoner on death row and increase the death penalty to “make his mark.” A good man does not respond to his huge deficit spending upon leaving office in Texas, “That’s the next governor’s problem.” (Similar to what he now says about the Iraq War.) I’ve seen alot of people who are good actors, playing the part of the good man or the good woman.  He should get an academy award for his performance.

You may want to check all this for accuracy and context, as per our lesson above.  You might want to give some weight to the fact that he was re-elected by a fairly large margin in Texas.  You might want to consider that Texas continues to elect him as President.  What do you know or perceive that so many other Texans don’t?

This Monday, the U.S. TV news was reporting that Saudia Arabia has still not complied with U.S. government requests to remove slurs in students’ textbooks that promote hatred of the U.S. and Israel.

Yep, you’ve pretty much nailed the basic problem we’ve had with Islamic extremism for a long time now.  Young Arabs being brainwashed from birth to hate and to kill, simply on the grounds that non-Muslims don’t have a right to exist.  (all those other excuses are pretty much just that) Even fundamentalist Christianity teaches the exact opposite. 

These are Bush family friends who are allowing hatred to grow and develop toward the U. S.  in the minds of their children.

Putting aside the fact that Saudi Arabia has been cozy with virtually every administration in recent history due to their oil reserves, are you now advocating that we pressure another sovereign government to do our bidding?  Seems a bit out of character.  But if so, it’s the environmental left that does everything it can to prevent us from gaining any kind of leverage with Saudi Arabia and the middle east in general, by having the capability to replace whatever supply they threaten to cut off with that of our own.

I do not condone the hatred or the killing but I also wonder what our youth would do if we taught hatred in our textbooks, along with religious fervor that accepted that one religion only; then 10 or 20 years from now another country invaded the U.S., bombed out it’s infrastructure and occupied it.  Would any members of this society commit crimes against its own people?

You seem to readily reject my rather plausible scenario about a Democratic administration doing pretty much what Bush did after 9/11.  Mind if I reject this as completely and totally absurd?  For one thing, even if Christians did take over everything and demand only their religion be taught, what do you suppose they would teach?  Certainly not hate.  They would teach love, forgiveness, and all that.  They would teach hate the sin, but love the sinner.  But you’re right, if someone bombed us to smithereens and occupied our country, it just might cause some people to turn against other people.  More likely though, there would be a united effort to expel the invaders, something you strangely don’t see in Iraq.  Thankfully, due to the U.S. military, you simply don’t have to worry about this ever happening. 

Sitting smugly, condemning others for what we don’t understand serves no greater purpose.

First you complain that Bush isn’t doing enough to stop certain behavior in another country, and then you say we shouldn’t condemn others for what we “don’t understand”?  Seems a little contradictory, or am I misunderstanding you?

The PNAC “plan”, if you insist, is simply the opinion of some very intelligent and experienced individuals as to the best way to maintain U.S. military superiority and flexibility, in the face of some very tough challenges emerging on the horizon.

There is nothing in it that could be construed by any reasonably intelligent individual as a plan to take over anyone or gain exclusive control over anything. 

I would think, that given all the actual attempts to conquer others by individuals and governments that care absolutely nothing about the human rights the left so champions, and the many actions taken by the U.S. and like-minded militaries to stop them, you all would be applauding the PNAC.

But I suspect that would be asking way too much.

Having lived and worked in Texas for 10 years, I think I know more than
you give me credit for, buckaroo.

YOU do not understand the psychology, the psyche that is Texas.  It still thinks it is a separate entity, even flies and flaunts itself under a flag as “The Lone Star State.”

You know, your dribble is just that.  Without substance.  Hollering that nothing has substance that does not fall under the guise of your understanding.  You’re just a slanderous shill, placed to create havoc with twisted truths and pseudo-wisdom.

I question why you ask my permission to reject what I say because that is generally your position in this discussion.  You reject the subject and divert with your “plausible pleas.”

And my dear, you go hence into the darkest of nights when you profess that you know what Christians will teach.  Oh my, right south of me in Columbus, Ohio their is hatred of anything not promoted by that church and mistrust of other religions spoken by the Rev. Rod Parsley in his mega-church.  Dobson, Robertson, Falwell are all divisive leaders who reach for political powers.Go peddle your wares somewhere else little shill.  I’ve listened to Robertson and Falwell 40-50 years ago.  I tossed Dobson’s “How to Discipline Children” out after reading it in 1974-75.  I was a Sunday school teacher for 25 years, teaching adults for over 10.  I know what that good book teaches and they are passing up the Sermon on the Mount for Old Testament passages that were given to bring peace and understanding to Christians.  I tried fundamentalism and had to pass it up because I considered it too self-encompassing.  I have been stomped on by the best of christians and that had little to do with love and forgiveness.  One person did not like that in my Sunday school class people could discuss real life without recrimination; how we could interpret the teachings in dealing with our lives.  There were more in attendance in that class than church service.  It’s not just “teaching” Natalie, it’s application. 

That’s enough.  Your heart is so cold it’s a sheer waste of my time dickering with you.  Peace.  Get real.

WTH
I’m awaiting Craig Murray now, and considering to buy Smedley . Will check to see if he’s free on the net, or in print.
One which will also interest you is nathaniel fick. The two shepherds story.

A very few US soldiers are on trial.  NO.  I’m definitely not impressed, especially after the very public attempts at cover-up. (Same for UK)

I remember not only Lt Calley, but also very many others who have continued unpunished.  My personal examples are non-US --- WW2, Korea, Suez, Uganda , Algeria, Northern Ireland. 

Am I predisposed to believe the worst of the US ?

Not necessarily.. I"ve believed for some time that the US has the worst, and the best , in it . Like all countries.

My criticisms are not aimed specifically at the US, as in Anti-Americanism.  They may seem to be sometimes, but that is only because we are usually talking in an American context, on an American site.  And if we do get onto the Invasions, US is the leader, but Oz and UK just behind, just as guilty. (My dad was brit, but also Oz for 30yrs, so an affinity with the country.)

Here in France the wingnut gov is trying to destroy our OSHA inspectorate.  I know some of them, they do a brilliant job, and are under-manned already.  Those guys save lives, do their best to protect workers. US the same.

The former brit Foreign Secretary Jack Straw is “elected” by a constituency that has an extra-ordinary 16000 postal votes, and there is good reason for suspecting fraud.  Well, a little more than that. One of his Party workers went down for three years. US the same.

The multi-generational multi-party Conspiracy is quite believable.

Monarchies traverse generations , and the institution has often been strong enough to survive weak or mad kings. King George 111 was pretty mad.  Hugely rich families are VERY similar.

Money and power. Power and money.

Parties in a stable state often have common allegiances, or fears, that transcend their Party divide.  In the modern state, the power of the lobbies, the financiers , industrialists and media is so great that either Party is more beholden to them than it is loyal to the well-being of the voters, or any ideal of justice. 

Did you ever get to see Mr Smith goes to Washington ?

I must confess I take a wicked pleasure when Dubya opens his mouth, but it is tinged with sadness, when I think of the good Americans I know., and the suffering needlessly imposed on the world.

For Blair there is a stronger feeling . He is very clever, but also wrong on everything he does. Phenomenal !

“ A first-class politician, a second-class brain. And no morals .”

I hear Dubya is going soon to Germany, and I expect the opponents will attempt to turn out in force . Condi’s visit to provincial UK was NOT a success, and the last time Dubya was in Germany, the streets were so cleared that where he drove was like a ghost town in the movies.

Old Pinochet came to London. Hmm. Hmm.

Kissinger has to think twice before he travels.

We’ll see?

sally,

When the Mujahadin and Hekmatyar were US allies, the textbooks of religious hate were printed in the mighty ** of A .

The idea at the time was to get the next generation really indoctrinated to fight “Commies” I suppose.

Does a shill know what it is doing ?

Conservative- someone who advocates the promotion of U.S. national interest in international affairs
(No problem there)

depending on military means
(This is the bully whip and the loss of respect and humanity)

Frog,

Shills operate on command, like robots without a brain. Or is that
the scarecrow?

They have a script and are programmed stick to it religiously.
That’s why it cost $10,000 one year to set it up.

A real live, down-to-earth human would know that a little wait for the newness to wear off,
would ring the price down on such toys and gimmicks.

The US trying of these men will not impress me WTH until it actually results in justice.  We all know how many soldiers were even tried from My Lai, and I cannot even bear to write the final result.  Can you revisit the closest you ever came to really trying the abuse, with pride?

So the fact that despite months of attempts to cover this up, for that has been the case WTH, we read about this in such as the Scorpy is sneeringly calling terrorist sources, back in November I think.  The story of the Pentagon attempts to cover it up, from the men on up, has been followed closely on truthful news sites too. So you mustn’t get all excited thinking that things are looking up now that a couple of the guys in the platoon started to put two and two together and realised the recent insurgent brutality against his unit had a justifiable cause. That’s about how I read it WTH, so you’ll forgive me if I’m not overwhelmed just just yet.

I would like to repeat that this is but one of many such instances which are being reported if you care to look beyond your own backyard.

You folks really need to get over the idea that the whole world outside the USA exists only to spread propaganda for American ears only.

Sally I am an ex mormon and know a thing or two about fundamentalist christians too.  Parents and sister still. 

I see you’ve had the Natty experience.  We all end up with a similar reaction eventually.  It is why Rabbit calls her the Vampire.  Natalie the Vampire Bat, Natty Bat, rabbit’s favoritist shill.  Love of anything which causes death or suffering, anything dark and monstrous attracts her support like a moth to a light.

I have a question Sally

Exactly what were those slurs exactly?  I do think in this age of jumping to pre concieved notions to quickly and grasping at anything to support our delusions, we should exercise caution.  As I first wanted to hear more than a single report of an uncle claiming his family was murdered by US troops before I decided it was an atrocity, I also like to know what is this terrible slur?

The fact that the lunatics in power find some way to conclude something in a textbook was a terra’ist plot, doesn’t exactly fill me with righteous outrage at this stage.

Delightful that “others” cling so quickly and unthinkingly, showing why Rabbit is often compelled to call many of their small accusations of ill reason, ironic.  Hi WTH.

Not that the rabbit is trying to defend Saudi Arabians who he has only poor experiences of, but merely suggesting a little more reason is called for before we try to use something to justify awar of civilisations.  By the way, I wonder why Muslims seem to not care what we write about them these days in our school text books? 

The empathy would be beyond any of the morons, but for the others, just compare the sort of depictions which are now becoming normal and are certainly evident in the west’s education systems?  Yet the Muslims who hate our way of life so much couldn’t even bother to protest?

It just so happens that a good friend of mine taught science in Saudi Arabia for several years, he has some interesting stories to tell.  Nowhere did he mention anti-americanism among those who actually read textbooks.  Those who go to school, ie; read textbooks, are actually very americanised., The poor people, the majority who suffer by virtue of America’s support of the tyrranical Saudi familes, hate America. Sure they’d like to kill anyone of you who they could get their hands on, and drink your blood and burn your bones and piss on them.  They lie awake at night dreaming of slitting your soft american throats.  Mad as beasts they are and if it wasn’t for the Saudi Royals those vicious Mad Muslims would be coming out of the woodwork in the USA.  That’s really why they want better conditions and wages etc, so they can save up enough to come to America to kill infidels.  But not those who read textbooks, I don’t think so.  They have a better education system than you have ever seen I undestand.  For the privelaged few.

Scorpy or was it Natty, maybe both, were wondering about Bushling and ICC.  Or should I say doubting.  More discussion of War Criminal Bushling.

Frog asks a poignant question.

Does a shill know what it is doing ?

....................^^....................

That is a question which will probably never be answered. 

It reminds the rabbit about the story of the two door guards one of whom will ALWAYS lie and the other who will ALWAYS tell the truth.  But you don’t know the difference.  How do you find out if the door on the right or the left is the one?  Doctor Who solved it as we know, but I’m not sure if we can solve your quandary. 

Good question though it shows deep thought.  Under the pond sort of thinking.

How goes it Frog?  Rabbit has found a new toy, hast thou seen it?

F***, Sh**, and BU**er,

Frog just gave refs to USAID/ CIA afghan hatebooks, and power down !

Here it is --CBC on jihadi warrior textbooks published in the good old USA .

Sally and rabbit are both correct.

At primary level in Saudi, books such as this surely to be found, just as jihadi but probably less war-like.
.
I guess rabbit’s friend was teaching science at university level, completely different.
Try jihadising Gray’s Anatomy .

A major problem in Saudi is the large amount of money subsidising advanced studies in theology, and all those guys have to end up somewhere .....

My question to sally was based on “ FORGIVE THEM, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO “ .

PS new rabbit ?  + mystery (electric ?) item ?

Frog a new toy yes.  No not so much electric, as electronic.  See email.

More naughtiness on the electoral front The usual suspects.

KARABILAH, Iraq (July 7, 2006)—Thanks to the work of Marines and Iraqi Security Forces, 800 elementary-aged girls will now have a school to attend this fall.

“The bomb was a last ditch effort by insurgents to destroy the progress we’ve made in this area, said Bernier.

Gotta love that “resistance”!!!  Viva la resistance!!!!

Hooray for the brave marines.  The Iraqis should definately lay down their arms now and accept old uncle sam’s tutellage and beneficence. Look at that almost a thousand kids get to go to school. WOW.

Soon they might even get electricity too!  Do you think?

Yep and the American officer is explaining the whos and motives of the resistance, that’s just all OK then Natalie.  Thanks for setting us straight. I guess we’ll be seeing the Iraqi’s at the next World Cup then.

It’s just so good of those marines to come and fix all this infrastructure which those pesky Iraqi’s blew up all by themselves.  It’s a wonder the Iraqis even had anything before the USA managed to save them from themselves, bringing schools, and power and hospitals, and security. 

Now Uncle Sammy is gonna build them a whole new country, one school at a time.  Maybe next thing a hospital.  I remember the last feel good story you showed us from Iraq Natalie my fanged flappy thing of the dark.  I think it was about some children who were playing in the street.  I think it was showing how much fun they were having and how safe they felt.  I seem to recall the street was somewhere in a town called Fallujah.  A week or two before the town stopped being a town.

Review of Causes of WTC Collapse

Severe though the structural damage due to aircraft impacts was, it was only local. Without stripping of much of steel insulation during impact, the subsequent fire could not have led to overall collapse (Bazant and Zhou 2002, NIST 2005). As generally accepted by structural engineering and structural mechanics experts (though not by some laymen and fanatics seeking to detect a conspiracy), the failure scenario, broadly proposed by Bazant (2001), and Bazant and Zhou (2002), on the basis of simplified analysis, and supported by very realistic, meticulous and illuminating computer simulations and exhaustive investigations by S. Shyam Sunder’s team at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST, 2005), may be as follows: (1mb pdf)

Steven E. Jones........call your office!!!  You’ve been invited to a debate.

Nice little piece of PR....Always interesting to read feel good PR about the illegal occupation of another nation by US troops....Now we can teach little Iraqi girls about Christmas...and the Eastern bunny...Please Natty...you must be running low on propaganda…
US human rights agenda under the Bush regime....devastate any given nation...into obliteration....then do some photo / news ops. for feel good news media...so neo-con sympathizers can view with there morning… mocha latte’.......
Do they serve falafel pizza in the cafeteria....

Rabbit....My hope is that out of office...Bush will have all kinds of international legal problems....The stups here in Amerika...will do nothing too prosecute this thug......

Most Amerikan political nationalist are too concerned with the image a full blown prosecution of a former presdent would create....they fail to realize...how...something like an international tribunal could heal a lot of what dis-eases this country.....

Frog,

Thanks for the Nathaniel Fick link. I am in total agreement with him and have written similar comments as the following both here and on a few other sites.

• “The debate over whether the United States should have gone to war in Iraq is, from where I sit, moot.”

We ARE there and should fix it.

• “What’s unforgivable in leaders is a lack of introspection and an unwillingness to admit and learn from mistakes…

Rumsfeld must go. Bush needs a new tape inserted.

• “Instead of focusing exclusively on our offense, we should be setting up protected “cantons” — areas in which the locals’ security and comfort are our first priorities — and pouring manpower and money into them.

The borders were never properly sealed. Today, almost three years after the war began, men, weapons, and money, the three ingredients of insurgency, are freely crossing into Iraq from Syria and Iran.”

This is exactly why we lost in Vietnam. You must take and hold territory and no score by body count.

• “We can’t get out of Iraq anytime soon, and we shouldn’t. Colin Powell was right when he said, “If you break it, you own it."”

Each of these points are also listed in the book, “Cobra II” — too bad Rummy and the Bush don’t read and learn.

The two shepherds story… We would never have known about this if he hadn’t told us. We do get the bad news (much later) when someone tortures, murders, or rapes. I wonder how many “shepherd stories” we’ll never hear?  If it doesn’t get ratings who will tell it?

WTH
I heard him 8 april on the BBC.  Have to have a lot of the right stuff to stand up to the dumb machine.

God knows where next. What a mess.

CONFIDENTIAL FM TASHKENT AMBASSADOR TO FCO 18 march 2003

I was horrified when the massive assault on Iraq started. I knew both that Iraq did not really possess WMDs, and that our weapons were much less precise than the news propaganda claimed; tens of thousands of civilians were dying.

Given that we were supporting the dictator Karimov, I thought it was pretty rich to be claiming to attack Hussein because he was a dictator. I was then outraged to see on BBC World TV a speech by George Bush saying we were going to war in Iraq to dismantle Hussein’s torture apparatus. I had just been informed that torture material was legitimate in the War on Terror.

I therefore sent the following telegram. This was the only protest from any British Ambassador at our entering on an illegal war, abandoning the UN Security Council, and following blindly George Bush’s violent and acquisitive foreign policy.

Craig Murray May 2006

This is a small example of his revelations, which were posted on the net on the Fourth of July…

BlairCo are trying to shut his site down, but it is widely mirrored , and equally valid for Americans to check out, as were the Downing Street Memos. SITE

they succeeded in his taking down some of the stuff, by blackmail of legal fees to ruin him,

Hot hard sweaty day today, and my pub’s still open . Just called. So am for a quick two or three, forget the problems of the world....

Seeya all.

US Popular Vote
Agreement among States to elect the President by National Popular Vote....
Popular Vote makes all States Competitive
50 years Public support....70% or greater
Nation-wide agreement can be met with states agreement to pass idenitical laws awarding all electoral votes in all 50 states to popular vote winner
Interstate Compact

Redhorse,

Please clarify your last post.  I can’t tell if you want a popular vote or if you want the electoral college.

How can a true popular vote possibly not make some states more competitive than others?

If all states agree to give all their electoral votes to the winner of their popular vote, how is this any different from our current system, at least the way it works 99.9 percent of the time?

The computer sims were tweaked at various points way beyond the actual parameters until the required result happened.  Furthermore they needed to be computer sims because there was no way they could tweak anything with a scale model which is still the simplest and most sure way to prove the thing possible, but it isn’t so nobody will.  We’ve been there a long time ago Nat and I am not wasting time on it. Your quote actually didn’t support the fairy tale, it did nothing.  Keep on smoldering away though, we couldn’t care less. The numbers of those who know the truth keeps growing, because rather than having to covince anybody of anything, we just have to get them to actually look at the verifiable facts.  Nobody who does this isn’t automatically in the know.

Bruce Willis of all people is now onboard.  He was a Flag humping neocon cheerleader until very recently, actually on record attacking the 911 truth movement.  He was given the information by Richard Linklater, and upon seeing it, he realised.  No convincing necessary.

What an uphill battle you shills have.  Poor things.

One day I expect the government is going to manage, via one of their shills, to actually turn someone who has first known the truth.  They will announce it on TV, and that person will be interviewed, given massive coverage on the MSM, as an example of someone who has been convinced of the official story, after having long been a “conspiracy theorist”.  I hope for you Natty the shill who manages to convert that feeble minded soul is you.  With all my heart I hope that that historic first convert makes you a famous shill.  That day will be touted as a victory for the 911 Fairy Tale brigade.  A whole one convert.  What a win.  Historical. 

Until then my dear, you have just got to keep on shoveling.  Good luck.

Now a quick hop back on TOPIC.

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING QUOTE IS FROM THE TERRY ALLEN 9/11 ARTICLE
(The site won’t let me back into that discussion right now.)
------------------
“...the Bush administration actually manipulated this country to war on a train of lies riding tracks of fear—cynically using the bodies of the 9/11 victims as fuel.”
------------------
This reference is a little over a year old, but it fits right in here.

Anyone who watches MSNCNBC financial reporting will know Ron Ansana is no wild-eyed liberal. I had did not recognize Julian Robertson immediately, but he is verifiable as a hedge fund manager of 53 years experience.

Legendary Funds Manager Predicts Utter Global Collapse Stemming From Bursting of Property Bubble
 
Blames Bush-Cheney “regime”
------------------
 
http://andongkim.com/articles/2005/06/JRobertsonglobalcollapse.htm

SALLY b,

IF you’re still around; come and have a good read at 911 FAITH.

IF NOT, maybe some other soul will follow the direction to an interesting debate ?

Rather a lot of interestin participants, worth that read.

Heck -

Legendary Funds Manager Predicts Utter Global Collapse Stemming From Bursting of Property Bubble

Blames Bush-Cheney “regime”

DON’T PANIC, HECK!  EVERYONE WILL CONFUSE YOU WITH LAGOMORPH.

Your reference does not quite tell the full story of Mr. Julian Robertson.  Robertson’s Tiger Funds lost $18 billion and are out of business.  Robertson is facing multiple lawsuits.  The cite below makes references to business and economic journals that detailed Robertson’s long fall from grace and his legal problems.

http://www.almartinraw.com/public/column219.html

It is a fact that there are economic cycles, and some cycles are more severe than others.  It is also a fact that economic policies have a primary role in economic cycles. 

The worst downturn in American history was the Great Depression.  We had so little understanding of economic principles that we raised taxes and tariffs, which had the effect of depriving businesses and consumers of capital, and stifled trade, thus serving to prolong the Depression.  The Great Depression saw unemployment rates of over 10% for eleven straight years, with unemployment reaching a peak of 24% in 1933.

The only two severe disruptions to our economy since the 1930s were the seventeen years of stagnation that followed Johnson’s Great Society (culminating in the Carter Catastrophe), and the dotcom Bubba Bubble, which popped in Clinton’s last year, giving us the Bubba Recession.  Both of these economic problems were marked by massive tax increases that contributed to the economic problems.  The Bubba tax increases also gave the Republicans control of the House for the first time in forty years. 

You won’t learn anything from reading the New York Times, but the American economy is now vibrant, healthy, and growing.  Regardless of what Mr. Robinson says, the only threat to the American economy is electing a Dimocrat who will, naturally, raise taxes.

AND the winner is.............................................................................. .................................SCORPY.

How did that tubing go?  It must have been much easier for you Scorpy dear troll..  You were having such fun you stayed away for a few days.

What kind of smoke do you use?  Hickory or just Oak was always good for trout or eels in Rabbit’s experience. 

The US economy is now healthy vibrant and growing, is it Scorpy, that is good to hear.

So is the Chinese economy. On a scale of one to ten, Scorpy and given China’s 50 billion dollar trade surplus, we shall call it 1.  Where do you think America’s economy would measure?

What is the US trade surplus by the way? Rabbit can’t seem to recall.

Do you count the printing of little bits of paper which are exchanged for loans as an export product?  Are the little bits of paper an export item?  If so they are your main one.

Does Scorpy’s rusty old head realise that a country’s GDP is a farcical measure of the health of an economy by the way?  It is and this is why.

Every time an ambulance is dispatched or a repair is made to a road, the GDP rises.  The amount of business involved in supllying the WAR MACHINE is an enormous part of that GDP, for the USA, it is many times more than the percentage for any other country.  A disaster like Katrina, through it’s massive generation of costly actions, and its smaller but significant costs of actually helping the victims, and cleaning up etc, all these things increase the GDP correspondingly.  An interesting realisation brought to me by Dr David Suzuki in “From Naked Ape to Superspecies”.

America has an impressive GDP, is that what Scorpy means by a growing economy?

Lagomorph -

China?  Well, yes.  President Nixon made the historical opening to China specifically to bring it into the modern economic and social world.  Nixon’s foresight has proven phenomenal, and we are gratified by the wonderful progress China has made.  In fact, China’s entire GDP is about the same as the growth of American GDP since President Bush passed the tax cuts and revived the American economy after the Bubba Bubble and the Bubba Recession.

America’s economy is ranked far ahead of China’s economy.  It is China that is eager to gain American dollars, while America is indifferent to Chinese yuan.  China needs dollars to give the yuan stability and value, otherwise the yuan would be nothing more than fiat currency, having no intrinsic value.  If (IF!) China continues to grow and prosper, someday it will develop economic instruments and institutions that have real value. 

Meanwhile, the Chinese political system remains corrupt and inefficient, and will be needing all the real assets (American dollars) it can get to deal with it’s non-performing state-owned economy, it’s billions of dollars of non-performing bank loans, it’s agricultural inefficiency, and it’s aging population.

Your gross ignorance of economic matters is not unlike your gross ignorance of civil engineering.  But that is your problem.

Scorp, Rabbit,

Didn’t these comments of Global Disaster from the referenced website set off any alarm bells?

---------------------
“There will be total collapse of public infrastructure. Total collapse of medical care systems. All public pension plans, Social Security will collapse. All corporate pension plans will collapse.”

“The American consumer is effectively now supporting the rest of the planet,” he continued. “Consumption rates in all other nations are falling, have fallen to the point that the tax revenues to governments, that the business and industries those nation states are providing is now a net negative number relative to total debt service and public cost, that this exists in virtually every nation state on the planet now.”

And for much of this “doom”, interestingly, he blames the Bush-Cheney “regime”. “

---------------------

Or didn’t you read the interview?

http://andongkim.com/articles/2005/06/JRobertsonglobalcollapse.htm

WTH
How did this thread get to economix ?
I think the thing you saw had some spoofing in it somewhere, your article unreachable, for me at least, and the original video of interview as well. If there was one....
DEFINITELY WEIRD .

However, for a little light reading, DO try here, lotsa fun stuff on drugs and politix and economix, and julian robertson...

I speckt the whole thing was Al Martin spoofing .......the other guy...... but he himself is actually the doom-monger ........... and interesting ...

SCORPY for gawd’s sake ! The last I saw China had about $ 600 Bn in T-Bills an’ such . And was wondering how to get rid of them without their losing too much value, or not ?

It is China that is eager to gain American dollars, (says the Scorp,above)

Frog the repentant sold his last for Euros at $0.847.

Good election article by Palast

This Rape of women under Saddam Hussein era was a rare crime. Is this more of the American achievements in Iraq?  I can’t understand why the ungrateful Iraqis are whinging. 

Scorpy has an interesting Spin on the Chinese economic powerhouse.  America, specifically Nixon is responsible. I might have known if anything good was happening America was behind it.

Good one Scorpy.

Perhaps Scorpy could explain what exactly Nixon did to “bring China into the modern economic and social world”?  Did he teach them how to make things and sell them Scorpy?  Did America with it’s 200 year history teach China with it’s 3000 year history how to trade Scorpy?  Maybe you mean all those bits of paper which Frog mentions, does selling the Chinese these bits of paper, make China more modern does it Scorpy?

In fact, China’s entire GDP is about the same as the growth of American GDP since President Bush passed the tax cuts and revived the American economy after the Bubba Bubble and the Bubba Recession.

GDP is not an indication of the health of an economy at all, as I explained Scorpy.  The US GDP gets a special boost from it’s military spending, but that isn’t a strong economic factor now is it.  Especially since due to the deficit, and the continual issuance of debt to keep on paying for that military.  All such a GDP signifies is how much quicker you are sinking, in the case where it isn’t due to infrastructural spending and is finaced from abroad.

America’s economy is ranked far ahead of China’s economy.

By whom Scorpy? Do you mean it is far ahead in alphabetical listing? AE does come before CE I guess.

It is China that is eager to gain American dollars, while America is indifferent to Chinese yuan.  China needs dollars to give the yuan stability and value, otherwise the yuan would be nothing more than fiat currency, having no intrinsic value.  If (IF!) China continues to grow and prosper, someday it will develop economic instruments and institutions that have real value. 

China is rather eager to get rid of American dollars at the moment actually Scorpy and are diversifying as quickly as they can without starting a panic.  Let’s be honest here.  The Chinese actually LOAN American dollars back to the USA, but what they get for it, is an even greater amount of American dollars.  China basically owns you Scorpy, and they will either be allowed to use those American dollars to buy more and more of America, its businesses, land and anything else that is going in thye global garage sale which is approaching, or they will not hold onto those dollars.

Does Scorpy understand what happens when it becomes obvious China is dumping its Dollars?  Oh of course I know, Scorpy thinks the world will get really rich from all those greenbacks floating around.

America may be indifferent to Chinese Yuan, but if the Chinese who are the main supllyer of much of your imports, decides it doesn’t want your dollars anymore, guess what?  You will have to find something else to pay them with, or go without. It is the height of silliness to try and spin a totally debt based economy, which exists purely on the basis of the continuous issuing of debt by the Fed, as being the driving force of World economy.  In fact what it is Scorpy is the bomb under the world economy.  That insane fiat currency idea, with the short term strategy of recycling the petro dollar has now degenerated to a need for wars of conquest to support it. Trouble is, you are sinking so fats that you cannot steal enough, quickly enough to keep up with the inrushing water.  The debt.

A fifty billion dollar surplus, is a healthy economy, if for a nation of on billion people.  It is a surplus of fifty dollars for every man woman and child in China.  If I divide the US national debt into your population, guess what.  I get a debt of 27,000 dollars for every man woman and child in the USA.

China has plus $50 per person, USA has minus $27,000 per person. hmm, can someone help the rabbit see how this means the USA is the better economy, he doesn’t understand the maths it seems.

I guess since Australia is also in Surplus that means we are doing poorly too?  Of course I’m sure we have the USA to thank for our economy too, Scorpy, I’m sure everyone in the world really was just waiting through history for the wall street geniuses to show us how to have an economy.

Frog,

(I submitted this economic item here just to illustrate the gullibility of so many people.)

Apparently only you checked the source I gave. If you Goggle: “julian robertson” “june 22, 2005” (which is when I got it) you will get several denials of the interview, including one from CNBC.

I was immediately suspicious since CNBC’s goal in life is to boost the market and would be unlikely to air something so wildly negative without any rebuttal.

There actually was an interview and Robertson was sounding really bearish.  Someone took the transcript and added increasingly dire comments to the point where Robertson is warning of a total global collapse — currencies, markets, pensions, governments — all caused by Bush and Cheney.

Most sites still carry this as a true and factual, legitimate interview. People from around the world replied to these sites with complete acceptance of the story.

Words (even from a “reliable” source) are unreliable. It matters not how many sites agree — do not accept INTERNET stories at face value — EVER!

Friends have repeatedly sent me “amazing” pictures of whales swallowing divers, odd animals mating, you name it.  For years I have been trying to tell people PhotoShop has made pictures unreliable as evidence.  If I had a reference to go by, I could make any metal in a photo look like Thermite had been used.

Frog,

I wanted to point out to some of those siting internet references that a single bogus story can generate countless other “corroborating” accounts.

This started as a real event, was deliberately altered to deceive (as a joke?) and went on from there with many people in many places taking it as a legitimate report.

Sorry, I don’t have a prize for you. :-)

Attention!

Anyone dissatisfied with the current U.S. two party system may find this site interesting.
-----------------------------
“Who We Are
 
Unity08 is a group of citizens deeply concerned that the wheels have come off our political system, that the American Dream is slipping away, and that time is short to get things back on track.”

http://www.unity08.com/about

Like I said, a big Garage sale.

WTH
I did post a reply to your article yesterday but it got lost it seems.

Experienced internet users and especially those who are genuinely seeking the truth, know how to trace a story to a reliable source.  Verifying individual facts within a story is also another way to go.

The fact that there is bullshit on the web, doesn’t lesson the value of the net as an information source. That one can as a rule establish the truth or otherwise of anything on the web fairly quickly is the whole point to it.  Example, you just did so with this article.  Now mere repeats of a story on other sites is always to be watched for.  Verifying a story is generally about finding the original source and comparing it to the type and location etc. For example, a story about a victim of the 7/7 London bombings which is printed in the West Australian lists her name as Sarah Levy.  This could of course be repteated as you say and thus offer superficial confirmation of the story.

The intrepid investigator turns instead to the BBC story or even to a local newspaper in London and finds the name of said victim is instead Sharia Islam.  Furthermore the almost word for word reporting of the West Australian story is clearly copied from the same BBCs source, with the single alteration of the name of the girl victim. (This happened by the way)

The process of dismantling someone else’s case in an internet debate requires that one does this.  Confirm or deny the verity of something which may be crucial.  Of course though it is common for independant thinkers and informed people to do this, denialists prefer a more general approach of denying anything outright if it clashes with their beliefs.

Mistakes are always possible, we can all be mistaken, but then these forums should give people a chance to straighten out their ideas.  If they want to.  Of course the annoying and disruptive thing is these idiots like Corpse who just rant and rave, deny anything without thought and spread their own brand of propaganda.  Which of course amounts to no more than simplistic front page waffle as a rule.  A dittohead is one of the most recognisable creatures on the net, and utterly predictable. Their ideas are exactly what one would expect if one believed more or less everything on the MSM.

Once in awhile Rabbit has been lucky enough to find someone with adiffering viewpoint and we have been able to engage in an intelligent and two way debate.  The result has usually been that the other person ends up re-thinking their position, and a couple of times it has gone the other way.

I have certainly decreased my conviction of the abiotic origins of oil which I once took as most probably true.  Now, due to some intelligent debate and especially the calling into question of the origins of the idea itself, the rabbit has withdrawn his support for the idea and is at least neutral about the issue at this time.  Nothing has disproven the theory though and nor have the biological origins of OIL been proven, so it is premature to say for sure.

WTH The rabbit does completely sympathise with yourself at this time, for it is apparent, as it has been for a long time you have your eyes open.  Sadly I fear that you have yet to realise the full extent of problems even now.  I wish it were not so.  It looks like that old battle between Gog and Magog is in it’s opening acts.  The USA could still save the day, but to do so will require the Bushling Junta to stand up to Israel.  It isn’t going to happen is it?

WTH

Looked at the Unity 08 site and I think it’s excellent.  Have you joined it?  Does it look like being viable in time? 

It is the answer of course.  The problem and they seem to anticipate it, will be dissipating the dissatisfied voters among too many candidates.  As such Ralph Nader on his own was simply not organised enough and possibly before his time.  I think any efforts to try and get a decent Democrap candidate in place instead is a waste of time.  It will not happen.  What the new candidate needs to do is campaign against the rep and dem cadidates as if they are a homogenous entity.  Which they are to all intents and purposes.  This way his message cannot be dissapated either by having to branch off in two versions.

I’d avoid even mentioning the other candidates by name, merely give them all a generic term and stick with that. Thus minimising and even marginalising the main party contenders.  They would be standing shoulder to shoulder against one’s alternative candidate this way, thus showing their own similar colours in the process.  Further compounding the message that they are the just more of the same..

Rabbit,

Unity08 is at least a hopeful sign of growing impatience with the two old parties. I’ve been down this 3rd party path twice before and will keep in touch to see what materializes.

Even if they only gain enough strength to gain access to the debates it’s possible to force change through addressing the most important issues.

There are moderates in both parties who have little or no influence but have become disenchanted with what is going on (and not going on). they may gain importance from third party or single issue groups’ pressure.
This has happened in the past in U.S. politics — integration for example.

Just as the conservative and liberal labels are too simplistic, so are Republican and Democrat. The number of issues and individual experiences are too varied identify place voters as solidly as when Democrats were for workers and republicans were pro business. IMO it’s the parties which have changed beyond recognition — ordinary people still have the same needs and know when they are being BS’d 6 ways from Sunday.

A third party may serve us well even if it only lowers voters’ cynicism. (including mine)

Back from vacation-
Back to the script.  Today ,7/1706, “Blowing the Whistle on Diebold” by John Ireland is posted on “In these Times.”

This article reports on the lawsuit filed on 7/13/06 by Robert Kennedy, Jr. against Diebold and other computer companies alleging “fraudulent representation of (computer systems) to state election boards and the federal government that their products were “unhackable.”

Thanks Sally

I’ll look.  It is more of the fraud story of course.  I am fascinated to see the outcome of the Mexican election dance.  It may have an effect on the USA election maybe, putting more backbone in the disenfranchised? 

I could have said exactly what you just did WTH, but not better, also the third party uprisings and the point they can effect outcomes even from the fringe.

Problem being that the issues which are accumalating at street level are not solved by the small limited matters such parties can affect.  One has to be in the running for the power to be able to have a say on the matters which count.  We can see what even a handful of courageous senators cannot do, even though they are from predominantly the conservatives in power.  The third party has to be on the scale of a popular grassroots uprising.  That sort of momentum becomes possible if one can watch the swing of the pendulum closely enough and judge the moment.

It can happen, but infrequently.  All the balls need to be lined up for it to work.

The Comic Book War

The most recent definition of an Oxymoron.................Neocon Intellectual.

Rabbit,

I’m afraid I see little hope of a grassroots uprising. If it were to take the form of the Hispanic demonstrations “demanding” change, I think it would only awaken people who until then had little interest and cause a knee jerk negative response.

Since the Vietnam War patriotism has had a bad connotation. Many people have shifted their loyalty from country to their favorite sports teams to avoid being seen as naive or just plain nuts. This has led to political indifference until something effects them personally and then to “special interest groups.” Voter turnout is pathetic.

IMO this fragmentation is why the two parties are so similar in behavior. The party of labor (Democrats) is split into anti/pro gay rights, racial differences, etc. The party of business (Republicans) has been diluted due to corporations covering all the bases with contributions. The sharing of the wealth has combined to form a corporate/congressional team which uses the media to spin legislation to their ends.

I am doubtful an honest, democratic form of governing can deal with the volume of information, the variety of complex technical changes and the speed of each.

You and I spend a lot of time reading. When I was working 10 to 12 hours a day I could not do this. The result is that even if a representative tried his best to be informed there would be no time to act.
After computers took over my line of work I did did a self study. The first ten years on computers I spent 27.3 percent more (non-billable) time at work than the last ten before computers. (So much for the productivity advantage.) Most of my reading was tech oriented—learning what to buy and how to use the latest hardware and software.

Now, picture George Bush (or any elected representative). 
Any average day he has to be spending most of his time listening to summaries of what is going on nationally and globally — in all areas of concern. How much time could he possibly spend personally on the internet (if he even has a computer) or reading various views?  Everything gets to him through the filter of other people’s minds. (AND they likely tell him what they think he wants to hear.)

Some think we can now take instant polling to make decisions. Bad idea. Instant media reporting without concern for accuracy would bring a mob mentality to each issue.

The slowness of the democratic process, although frustrating, has been a protection against rash behavior. The feeling of immediacy is largely responsible for our current mess. It hardly matters if it was a genuine or manufactured urgency — it is a fact of life.

I can see it once again in the Iran situation.  Iran can cause this much turmoil with the prospect of getting nuclear weapons, just imagine if Iran had them.  If we were not bogged down in Iraq, we’d be mobilizing to go to Iran right now.

Some of the same people critical of our unilateral involvement in Iraq are now critical for a lack of it in North Korea. While holding back for a six nation conference they want us to go bilateral. Again it is the urgency factor at play.
These kinds of issues piling up can lead to WW3. Clinton cut our military by 1/3. Reserves and Guard troops have been deployed and stretched to the limit. Too few boots whether in Iraq or globally can make the use of WMD look necessary.

Shit. I should have stayed in bed.

“Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? 
Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?”

T.S. Eliot, ‘Choruses from “The Rock”.

WTH

You forgot the Congressman’s hugendous amounts of time fund-raising, and pressing the flesh , from breakfastS to after nightfall.
Not To mention those educational world-trips,

Presidential Policy-making is done with the mouth-full at odd moments, usually with microphones switched off. The Times on Bushblair “special relationship” policy-making.

Thinking of taking time out to think, at least FDR read a selection of newspapers, including one hostile. My friend Lord Patel of the internet found this on The Dictator 1933, which puts well into context the earlier stuff on Smedley versus JP Morgan, Dupont, and other villains.

NOW, WOULD you kindly stop nightmaring about EYE-RAN ?

You are far more likely to get interned as a dangerous subversive in Halliburton Displaced Persons Temporary Resettlement Facility (Stalag411-B) than nuked by Mullahs.

Who’s been makin’ all the noise about Eye-Ran ? Just Georgy-Porgy, to distract you from the hand in your pocket and the shiv approaching your back.

Frog,

Funny live mike story — I heard it on TV last night. Comedians don’t need to hire writers, just everyday news is enough.  Hmmm, maybe we now know where the White House leaks originate.

I recently read a book about the FDR/Churchill relationship. One comment related that FDR quite often liked to set up his friends and advisors with topics he knew would cause an argument — it helped him decide on a course of action.

George Washington actually chose people to serve in his administration who he knew would disagree with his views — for the good of the country. Hard to picture either of these approaches today.

I’ll make you a deal. You obsess about government spying and I’ll worry about Iran and the radical Islamists.

Now, there are “those” who won’t believe this email, saying it doesn’t prove anything because I can’t cite a major news network… (Cleveland Peace Action) But, here is an email from a local (Cleveland, OH area) guy who is working in Beirut.
You remember, that little game that’s going on over there, funded by the American taxpayer?

One American’s view from inside Beirut, July 17, 2006

Editor’s note: This email was forwarded to us by former Cleveland Hts. resident Liza Frolkis, from her brother-in-law, Michael Provence, who is stranded with his family in Beirut. With the dearth of information available to Americans about what’s going on in Lebanon, I felt it would be of interest to many, to reproduce his email, unedited, on the Cleveland Peace Action website. Liza and Michael Provence graciously and eagerly agreed.

Liza Frolkis’ note: Hi, some of you may know that my sister, brother-in-law and nephew are
currently in Beirut, trying to figure out how to leave the country. 
Just thought you guys would be interested in what it looks like inside
Lebanon.  Michael Provence (my sister’s husband) is writing and teaches
Middle Eastern history at UC San Diego.

Michael Provence’s email:
Hello folks,
I am sorry I didn’t write to many of you yesterday. I am having
internet trouble and yesterday was a tough day.

I visited the travel agency Saturday morning where I learned that
flights are cancelled for the next two weeks, and that there are no
flights from Damascus. We have tickets that somebody will honor
eventually, but it makes no sense to try to leave the safety of our
campus apartment without solid plans. I asked the poor travel agent an
unkind question, by saying “what do you advise me to do?” The situation
throughout the country is quite bad, and certainly worse than the news
stations are reporting.

There is no doubt that the number of killed is many times what is being
reported. All movement is unsafe and practically every village and
neighborhood has been cut off from the outside. The Israelis have
threatened to bomb traffic on the roads if anyone tries to leave.
Stefan, who you probably remember, has received permission to hire a
cab and follow behind a Swiss Embassy convoy to Damascus this morning.
The Swiss, one assumes, received permission from the Israelis to pass.
The road is knocked out in many places and who knows how they will make
the trip--it will surely take many hours. The Israelis bombed a convoy
on a Southern road yesterday afternoon and killed 17 people.

I just talked to one of janitors who walked to work from the other side
of town where the bombing has been most intense. He said every 5
minutes for the last four nights the f-16s have dropped bombs on their
neighborhood. Buildings all around him have been flattened. The obvious
intention is to punish and terrorize the entire country, and there is
no actual policy or goal behind the destruction. Any travel, even
around the city, is impossible since the overpasses, bridges, and under
city road ways have been destroyed. This represents 15 years of
Lebanese post-war infrastructural reconstruction, which the Israelis
have destroyed nearly totally in four days.

Cont.

Part 2 - Beirut email

For the first time yesterday afternoon they really hit our side of
town. The artillery barrages and the explosions are nerve wracking.
Everybody in the building went downstairs. Our building, because it was
built by Hariri in 1992 has a shelter and is really solid. Still, we
are on a high floor and the noise is bad, even if the shells are far
away, which they always are. We went downstairs and ended up eating
with friends on the second floor. August was bouncing off the walls and
I took him upstairs to feed him. They started again, and I moved him
and his highchair into an interior hallway and fed him his dinner.  He
is scared more by our reactions to the explosions than anything else.
Just then my father in law called from Berkeley, so here I am feeding
the kid, telling my father-in-law everything is fine, and trying to get
off the phone before August climbs out of his chair or another shell
lands. Peter said, “Michael you sound great, so everything must be
fine.” “Yep, you bet Peter, safe and sound, don’t worry about us—call
your congressmen, gotta go bye.” BOOM.

Lor wouldn’t go back upstairs and we ended up sleeping-sort of-in a
friends’ apartment five floors down. We learned from Igrid’s sister, a
BBC reporter, that one of the explosions was a helicopter-launched
missile at the lighthouse at Ras Beirut, about a kilometer away along
the seaside. This morning seems quiet, but the University cut off my
email and internet access to my office yesterday. So I am writing from
a café right off campus.

There is some talk that the Embassy may be sending an aircraft carrier
from the Red Sea to evacuate us to Cyprus. The email notice they have
sent out states that citizens will be required to sign a financial
release and apparently pay for the helicopter ride to the ship.

This is pretty rich when you consider that as US taxpayers, we already
paid for the machinery that is bombing us and killing people. (F-16s
made in by GD in Fort Worth, the bombs, made by Hughes in Tucson, and
the helicopters, made by Bell in Fort Worth, and 40% of the Israeli
military budget in direct cash subsidies paid in a yearly lump sum to
the Israeli government, 30% of the TOTAL US foreign aid budget).
Furthermore, BBC reported that while Bush has continued to insist that
Israel has a right to defend itself, we have also learned that the
Israeli Air Force is running low on jet fuel and that the US will soon
be re-supplying Israel. It is very likely then, that the aircraft
carrier that comes to evacuate us will first stop, or send a fuel
tender, to stop in Haifa to offload aviation fuel. It seems a bit too
absurd, but this is how “terror” must be fought, apparently.

The whole business is laced with absurdity and lies. The Israelis say
they want their two captured soldiers and they want to root out
Hizballah. They claim the destruction of the infrastructure is designed
to limit the movement of the captured soldiers. But the soldiers may be
held 1.5 km from the border and the IDF would never be able to find and
release them by military action. Everyone knows this. They still have
not tried to move into Lebanon by land, since the political cost of
another land invasion of Lebanon makes every Israeli politician piss
his pants. Hizballah controls the south and represents approximately
40% of the Lebanese population and gains additional support with every
Israeli bomb. Bombing from the air is cost free in domestic political
terms as the Americans have shown.

Beirut Email - part 3. 

Furthermore, there is, of course, a back story. In 1982 the IDF invaded
Lebanon “To root out the Terrorist infrastructure,” as General Sharon
said at the time, which meant the PLO in those days. The IDF killed
30,000-40,000 people, carpet bombed Beirut, and displaced most of the
population of the Shiite south, who came as refugees to the Southern
Suburbs where they now live and where the Israeli bombardments are
heaviest. Hizballah was born in those slums as a resistance movement to
Israel’s occupation and a political party representing the Shiite
populations.  Two Israeli governments fell as a result of the Lebanon
adventure.

Since that time, and even before, the Israeli government has captured
(or kidnapped if you prefer) and held thousands of Syrian, Lebanese and
Palestinian prisoners. One of the prisoners in question, one of only
three Lebanese now held, has been held since he was captured as a 17
year old in 1979. One of the others was captured only last year.
Hizballah has staked its political legitimacy on its ability to
challenge Israel and to secure the release of prisoners—both actions no
other Arab government or party has ever been able to do.

Cross border operations have recently involved both Hizballah and
Israel and last month the Lebanese Intelligence service arrested two or
three Lebanese who had been part of an Israeli assassination squad in
Lebanon, responsible for several recent killings and car bombs. Three
or four months ago two teenaged fisherman were killed by the Israeli
navy in their open fishing boat near the border.

The mindless and bleak imperatives of the “War on Terror,” shared by
the Israelis and the Americans make any kind of climb-down, diplomacy,
or even conditional recognition of contradictory political positions
almost impossible. There is no doubt that Olmert and Bush would like a
way out. For Hizballah, the argument that Israel and the US are and
will remain the greatest threat to all Arabs has been proven, and the
anti-Syrian, pro-Euro-
American Lebanese governments has been decisively and probably fatally
weakened. Still, the assault cannot continue at this level and will
have to end soon-how remains the question.

We really don’t want to leave Lebanon on a US aircraft carrier, but
we’ll see what happens. Since we planned to fly to France two days ago,
we need to communicate with the travel agent so as not to be forced to
buy a second hugely expensive airplane ticket. The Israelis are bombing
the shit out of the poorest areas of the country, and the worst places
are certainly where there are no reporters or television cameras, but
they will not bomb the American University campus, and we will remain
safe and sound, albeit a little frazzled. The pro-American Lebanese
Prime Minister lives right here too, and we can see his bedroom window
from our bedroom window. It is safer to wait and stay put, which is
what we plan to do. It is hard to be inactive, but that, of course, is
why you have a three page letter before you.

If you called your congressman to call for ceasefire yesterday, please
call again today.

Love, Michael

Finis......  peace and patience.  Thanks.

WTH points out

You and I spend a lot of time reading. When I was working 10 to 12 hours a day I could not do this.

This very idea occurs to me often.  The frustration of trying to discuss with people who have not had as I have an average of ten hours a day for five years, absorbing information is quite overwhelming.  Especially the time spent filling in the gaps of history which are not normally included in the public consumption means that no real discussion is possible since it would be like someone discussing the bible with a seminary scholar, after only having read a one page summary.  It is bad enough even on the net where few enough have spent much time reading, but at least the information is readily available for reference.

For example the number of people who still parrot the historically and politically farcical idea that Islam is a threat to the west.  The poor little chickens try to lecture the rabbit about the dangers of Hezbollah and the historical rights and struggle of Israel, as if either actually existed.  The simplistic utterly absurd analyses of international events etc.

There is certainly mis-information, and apathy.  Problem is that this extends to the entire outlook of people caught up in the paradigm. They are not keeping up with the real news, and they don’t even have an accurate understanding of the background to what they do get. It is not a failure by the people though, I see it as deliberate manipulation by those in power.  Much effort and money has gone into reducing the population to this level of ignorance and mis-informed state.  It didn’t happen by itself.

Obviously anyone who is watching the news and reading the newspaper each day thinks they are informed.  Yet these same people are completely convinced that Israel is responding to Hamas kidnapping a soldier and then Hzbollah doing the same.  In their minds the current growing conflict began with Hamas and Hezbollah atacking Israel.  The truth is in black and white for anyone who has time to sek it.

Israel has planned this for a long time.  Such an operation has had months of planning.  Israel has never ceased killing and kidnapping Palestinians for the last year and a half while Hamas has held a ceasefire.  The current round of hostilities were started when an Israeli gunboat shelled a picknicking Palestinian family on a Gaza beach and then massacred a family with a missile a few days later.

But how would all those psuedo-informed apes ever know?  The problem is the media.  The media as the fourth estate was always a winner, until it lost its independence.

Personally I blame the corporate controlled media above all for making it virtually impossible for people to be informed.  The few attempts which have been made to get alternative candidiates or political ideas into the mainstream, runs into the gatekeeping media.  They destroyed effectively the last two rising alternative parties here in Oz.

WTH

There is no evidence that Iran is or was trying to obtain Nuclear weapons, though thanks to the threats by the USA and Israel they would be foolish not to be doing so now.  Besides which whom says they may not own Nukes?  Israel has more than 20, and they are all illegal.  The USA has broken the non-proliferation treaties hands down.  Neither of these countries has any moral right to comment frankly.  You just rewarded India for breaking the non-proliferation rules (OK.. INDIA was never even a member.) Does the word hypocrisy mean anything to you WTH?

Accusations by thoroughly biased intelligence agencies aside and some of their attempts to frame up Iran have been uncovered as well.  Iran has not ever attacked the USA, or Israel, that is a fact.

America shot down an Iranian Airliner, in Iranian air space, a few years ago.  No apology was ever even given.  Would the Iranians have been justified in shooting down an American airliner thereafter? Well they did not of course, being a reasonable people.  I wonder what would have been the result if things has been the other way around?

Let us assume that the USA and or Israel now bombs Iran, destroying some facilities, and killing some Iranians.  Will the Iranians be justified in striking back at one or both of you?  Would they be unjust in sinking a few of your naval ships? 

Despite the accusations by biased and notoriously unreliable intelligence agencies that Syria is behind Hezbollah, anyone with half a brain knows Hezbollah started as a response to Israeli aggression in Lebanon.  The support of Syria and Iran is not unreasonable, whatever form it takes.  What do you suppose the support of Israel by the USA is otherwise?  Or what about the US support for the Iranian terror group MKO? Dude you cannot claim there is anything wrong with Iran or Syria supporting their friends and allies, while you are the leaders of support for various unpalateable organistaions and governments.  What about US support for the Saudi scumbags? 

Now despite the accusations no actual proof of Syrian involvment is forthcoming at this point, or we would know about it.  Let as assume Israel soon attacks Syria, bombing buildings, electricity, bridges and hospitals etc as it is doing in Lebanon.  Will Syria be justified in strikinmg back at Israel in this event?  If not why not?  Since Syria and Iran have a mutual defence pact, would there then be anything wrong with Iran striking back at Israel as well? If not why not?

Now if your argument is that Syria is a legitimate target because they support Hezbollah, then perhaps you will be so good as to admit that the USA will also be a legitimate target by Syria and Iran, due to its support for Israel.  Double standards WTH, double standards are the only way you can maintain the current farcical paradigm being force fed to the masses.

Apart from Americans and Israelis, are there any other races in the world who try to argue it is OK fo them to attack anyone, but the other is wrong if they defend themselves?  There isn’t by the way, so how do you explain this anomaly? Actually you already did in you last posts.  You simply fail to extrapolate the woeful situation you describe and relate it to the current insanity being perpetrated in your name. 

WTH please have a wander among the information on US hypocrsiy presented here. Then come and tell us about the wicked support of Hamas and Hezbollah by Syria and Iran.

Thanks for the letter Sally.

Rabbit watching situation daily from the following. Electronic Intifada.

We are getting much more balanced TV coverage in Oz on the National broadcasters as usual of course, and most Aussies are light years beyond Americans in understanding the reality in the ME.  The pictures of destruction and death in Lebanon are showing nightly and the few pictures of apparent damage to Israel is laughable in comparison.  The gutless blood drinking Zionist scuz are of course rushing off to the bombshelters just because a few fireworks landed in their city.  Meanwhile our grotesque little insect of a PM is being as much of a Zionist whore as he can get away with. 

Of course WTH probably sees Elctronic Intifada as being a terrorist organisation.  It means resistance, uprising, not “takeover the west” WTH. 

The descriptions in the letter Sally gives us probably don’t move him much, they are all evil terrorists aren’t they WTH?  Islamic fundamentalists.  Or perhaps you believe the Islamic fundamentalists are the cause, for standing up against Israeli aggression, it is their fault that Israel is now slaughtering civilians and destroying a counry which has struggled valiantly to rebuild after the last Israeli aggression.

Sorry to pick on you WTH, but honestly the frustration with supporters of a hypocritical stance is getting to be hard to take, out in the real world.

<b> DEAR OLD WTH<>

WHO shared with you the Good Story of Nathaniel Fick ?

THAT should have started a small cog whirring in your brain that WE TWO were, are , on the same planet ?

I’ll make you a deal. You obsess about government spying and I’ll worry about Iran and the radical Islamists

NASTY DISHONEST INSULTING STUFF. WTH. , unworthy of you.

You accuse me of “obsessing” about Government Spying.

What would it take to prove to you that “GS” has existed for a VERY long time ?

Is the Congressional Record good enough, or would you like something stronger; from another Planet , perhaps ?

Since I know damn well the shit is already in the Congressional Record, stuff such as the KERRY REPORT, how come you are not informed ?

And later the CIA Inspector admitted his guys had been drug- trading. No ref now, about 1996.

Do you really want me to go and look for the FBI file on Howard Zinn ?
His Peoples History of the US is on reading lists down the road.., here.

He was a real traitor, bombardier USAF WW2.;. A great contrast to Dubya.

About time you straightened your ideas up. Right fucking up.

I consider myself your friend. You are a decent man, as i am. You say i"m “obsessing”.  i too do believe you are “obsessing” !

Look at it this way . I was brought up with IRA Terra, financed by extremists in the USA—Armalites delivered and used. On british soldiers, some from my Regiment.

That was OK until 11/9/2001.

I’m gonna look for the Howard Zinn book this weekend....As far as spys go....does the name J. Edgar Hoover mean anything....
Recently , in florida....Liberty City of all places...7 MUSLIM MEN WERE ARRESTED FOR PLANNING A TERRORIST ATTACK....the target was the Sears building in Chicago....5 of the 7 are US citizens....caught by an informer....
These guys had nothing....no guns...no bombs ...no cell phones...no money for air fare....nothing....the informer “ spy , according to your tastes “ ...offered to pay for everything......arrested...charged....and held....with no real evidence , but the heresay of this “ informer “…
7 blackmen in a rough neighborhood...no guns...but they’re terrorists…
Now Bushy boy said he wasn’t spying on the US citizenry...and I’m sure most amerikans think....7 poor blackmen...muslim...must have been do’in something wrong...but the raid , turned up no evidence....so why are these men being held...and how did they come to be in this situation......A fugus among us....a Spy...a Gov’t owned and operated snitch...a paided stroolly....someone of no or low integrity…
What’s the old saying...about you can lead a horse to water....these guys may have been led to water....but had no cup to drink with.....

Frog

The FDR story from 1933 is fitting well enough into the picture I’m forming of the politics of the time, and is consistent with so much else like Prescott Bush etc.  Not to mention the ease with which many of the former Nazis were repatriated back to the USA after the war, upon the “excuse” of the communist threat.  I was taken with one thing FDR said The War Against the Emergency.  So these wars against concepts have been going on for a while in the USA? 

The War On Terror ............. WOT
The War On Drugs ...................  WOD (or is it WAD?)
War On Poverty....................WOP

I guess we are waiting for the War On Global Warming?  WOG

Redhorse I want to know what went wrong with the raid and capture of these Muslim men?  Why were some of them at least not shot?  Hopefully they are now being held in maximum security in stress positions with electrodes attached to their sacks? It is far too early to suggest they were not a threat to our freedoms and democracy.  Unless they have been roughed up, and humiliated and waterboarded and f**ked with the broomhandle occassionally, for a few years, we cannot be certain they were not planning something.  You know that so why do you hate America and help terrorists by being reasonable? 

The Gloves are off dude.  We’re not giving in to these terrorists anymore.  For too long they’ve been trampling all over our freedoms and burning the flag and murdering us as we go about our peaceful business.  No more are we going to give them four star motels with chaufeured limousines and expedited travel arangements, from now on those terra-ists are going to learn what it is to threaten democracy and freedom. 

We’re going to kill every last one of them ragheads, and bring demcoracy and freedom to them.  Yessir.

Frog aint you glad that you don’t have to admit that this bloke is your president.

You know it, I know it and the American people know it. But everyone is afraid to say it. They say it privately, but people are afraid of saying it publicly because you will be branded as a liberal, elite, intellectual snob. But believe me, you don’t have to be an intellectual to see how painfully stupid our president is.

Just look at the conversation he is having with world leaders at the G-8 summit. Mikes picked up the causal talk between the world leaders. Forget that Bush appears to have three sandwiches in his mouth while talking. Forget that he calls out to the Prime Minister of Britain as if he is Flounder in “Animal House.” Forget that he uses profanity. I don’t give a shit about those things.

I thought it was ridiculous that people made fun of George H. W, Bush for vomiting on the Japanese Prime Minister. What was he going to do? He had to puke, so he puked. It happens to the best of us, and more importantly, has nothing to do with his intelligence or how capable he is as a leader.

But his son’s verbal vomit does have a lot to do with his ability to lead this country and the world. What I found to be the most damning is the least quoted part of Bush’s comments. As you read this transcript, remember that this is not a small child talking, but the President of the United States of America:

The camera is focused elsewhere and it is not clear whom Bush is talking to, but possibly Chinese President Hu Jintao, a guest at the summit.

“Bush: Gotta go home. Got something to do tonight. Go to the airport, get on the airplane and go home. How about you? Where are you going? Home?”

“Bush: This is your neighborhood. It doesn’t take you long to get home. How long does it take you to get home?”

Reply is inaudible.

“Bush: Eight hours? Me too. Russia’s a big country and you’re a big country.”

At this point, the president seems to bring someone else into the conversation.

“Bush: It takes him eight hours to fly home.”

He turns his attention to a server.

“Bush: No, Diet Coke, Diet Coke.”

He turns back to whomever he was talking with.

“Bush: It takes him eight hours to fly home. Eight hours. Russia’s big and so is China.”

Russia’s big and so is China??????? This guys sounds like a third grader. Do you know anyone who would have a conversation like this with their neighbor, let alone a business associate, let alone a world leader? Who’s proud to know that Russia is big and so is China?

Can anyone now credibly claim that Bush is secretly working on a master plan behind the scenes and that he’s just playing cowboy for the cameras? I hope the master plan doesn’t involve figuring out how long it takes to get to China.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/the-ugly-truth-our-presi_b_25257.html

WTH I agree that this isn’t really very funny on the whole, but he has given us some laughs this guy, THE BUSHLING., that he has.

I forgot his old man chundered on the Japanese PM too.  Crikey, those were the good old days eh?

Frog,

I don’t know if this is the case in France, but over here wherever I go I am eavesdropping on a lot of personal conversations. I go to the grocery and hear some woman gossiping about a neighbor. On a bus I get the guy ahead breaking up with his girl. In the news people express wonder at all the “leaks” in business and gov. — Hey, people, go read about WW2 security forget this great new tech crap!

It doesn’t matter if I am reading a rightwing or leftwing source — everybody thinks the government should be responsible for “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” — Until something bad happens, then they should not have been involved — Or, should have known… should have gotten involved sooner… or caused it to happen… or…

Right — they should know, but not listen in. Save us from living below sea level, having gone to likely war zones, keep us from making stupid investments, not allow movie producers to make anti ethnic leaning movies, stop women from being ridiculed for pay…

What makes me a conservative I guess is my belief that individuals need to take responsibility for their own actions and decisions as much as possible. I don’t want any level of bureaucracy involved in my life any more than necessary to maintain society.

Over the course of time nations do a lot of stupid things. There are many inconsistencies and contradictions. Even individuals do this, but a nation is not an individual and to put believe in hindsight a multi decade on-going plan is at work is not credible to me.

Much of history, if taken in context, reveals why it may have seemed like a good idea at the time.

-----------------------------------
Sallyb,

The “little game over there” has been going on for centuries and there is no reasoning with either side which will stop it.  Seems to be a similar story for people on the Israeli side of the border.

Of course everything is the fault of the U.S.  We fund it. We arm it. We want it. And should have had a motel available somewhere to deliver (also at taxpayer expense, now) 25,000 people who were there by choice.

Probably not a good place to take a young family with all those bombs, shells and rockets blasting away every now and then. Why do you think it is called the “holey land”?

----------------------------
Rabbit,

What makes you think war should be fair? This is a war no matter how many media types keep asking if it is. (If it isn’t one… it’s missing a damn good chance.)

Rabbit doesn’t suggest war should be fair WTH.  You miss my point entirely.

I am merely pointing out that if you are going to eliminate the rules for one side then you can forget about dictating them to the other.

If its OK for Israel and America to kill anyone, anyway they like, then it is entirely reasonable that their victims hit them back in whatever way they can.

Which means WTH that there are no terrorists.  It also means that two countries with the bulk of the worlds weapons between them, and who show no compunctions about using any of them at the drop of a hat, and who have disregarded more conventions on human rights than all others, are the two most dangerous and rogue nations on earth.

Your claim of people in the ME having been fighting forever and suggesting the problem is insoluble is to ignore the fact that neither the Palestinians nor anybody else in the ME is requiring Israel to do anything except agree to the UN demand for pre 1967 borders and stop stealing more land.  So many people are sagely making such ludicrous staements, pompously pontificating upon issues with no basis for making the claims of the Arab nations they are.  You keep on misrepresenting the Arab and Muslim causes, you keep on repeating lies about what their leaders say.  This Muslim Fundamentalist thing you have in mind, is mostly in your own heads.  You are the victims of a big fraud.  For example this crazy claim that Armadinejad threatened to wipe Israel out which s currently the favorite ranting mantra of dittoheads.

I am telling you categorically that he did not threaten Israel at all, that his words were taken way out of context and twisted, do you wish to argue with me for I can have his speech in front of you in a few minutes?

It is the same with claiming he is a Holocaust denier.  He doesn’t deny anything about the holocaust but merely suggests that some details of what happened need clarification. No scholarly research has ever been done, and those who try today are being imprisoned.  That should be a smoking gun that something is wrong.  What sort of truth needs to ban all discussion?  What kind of truth needs to imprison people for merely questioning it?  For a start the number of victims was not six million, not even close from the information available.  Most important though and it is the point Armadinejad is making, is that the holocaust was European, why do the Arabs and Muslims inherit the fault for it, as it seems?

Show me the most recent claim from an Arab leader which was threatening to Israel?  In fact can you show us any reference by a Hezbollah or Hamas leader in the last year, before Israel got greedy again the other day, in which they do anything except express an intention to defend their people and land?  Not take anything from Israel, just to defend their land and people?  Can you WTH?  I don’t think you can because there are not any threats to destroy Israel or indeed anybody.  All these two groups exist for is as a defence against Zionist aggression.

How the hell can a mouse threaten an elephant anyway?

You’re right WTH, War isnR