Americans love a conspiracy. According to a May 17 Zogby poll, 42 percent believe the U.S. government and the 9/11 Commission are covering up what really happened on Sept. 11, 2001. There is something comforting about a world where someone is in charge—either for good (think gods) or evil (think Bush insiders plotting 9/11). Many people prefer to believe a… return to article
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Reader Comments (1972)How about that some people think the federal government had specfic warnings of the 9/11 attacks in New york and Washington, but chose to ignore these warnings. Is this very likely, somewhat likely or not likely?*
Very likely 32%
Somewhat likely 29%
Not likely 30%
Don’t know 6%
Can’t answer, refused 2%Joseph Goebbels said:
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the “truth” movement can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the “truth” movement to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the “truth” movement.
We’ve been bombarded with baseless, yet very bold assertions like “9/11 was an inside job!” for years now. Every time you search for anything on the Internet related to 9/11, the World Trade Center or the Pentagon, you’re flooded with crack-pot conspiracy sites. If one remembers back to the last Jay Leno show, where almost nobody on the street can name the vice president, or knows the chemical formula for water, it’s easy to see how lack of knowledge and critical thinking serves to influence these polls.
Indeed, some people lower down in govt. agencies DID know certain things that SHOULD have stopped the attacks, in a perfect world.
But people forget that the FBI and the CIA weren’t communicating very well back then, with each other and even within themselves.
It’s erroneous and misleading to say “2/3 of Americans believe there was a 9/11 conspiracy”. No, a third doesn’t think it likely, a third hold it out as a possibility, and a third are pretty sure. The question says nothing about a conspiracy, just whether SOME people knew SOMEthing and chose not to say anything.
But then again ...... should we decide complicated engineering and law enforcement questions based on vague polls of lay and in many cases very ignorant people, or rather rely on extensive, specific investigations performed by accomplished accredited professionals?
I think THAT poll question would swing pretty heavily toward the professionals.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 25, 2007 at 7:36 PM A far more rational explanation for the results of the Scripps poll would be that a lot of Jay Leno Americans are simply ignorant of the facts related to who knew what before 9/11:
Richard Clarke, the hard-driving counter-terrorism czar, testified before the 9-11 commission about pre-September 11 intelligence. He said that the number of al Qaeda threats and other terrorist threats was in the tens of thousandsprobably hundreds of thousands. But none of it contained specific information that could be used to stop the 9-11 plot. Clarke is even more emphatic in his book, Against All Enemies: Had we had any chance of stopping it, had we the knowledge we needed to prevent that day, those of us sitting as members of CSG [Counterterrorism Security Group] would literally have given our lives to do so; many of those around the CSG table had already put their lives at risk for their country.
What was lacking was actionable intelligence. To prevent the 9-11 attacks (or any terrorist attack), intelligence officials need to know the target, timing, and type of attack, what counterterrorism researcher Kevin Michael Derksen calls the three Ts of tactical intelligence. Without knowing all three elementswhen, where, and howan attack cannot be stopped. If you knew that al Qaeda was going to attack the World Trade Center on September 11, but assumed a truck bomb attack, you would be inspecting cars while the planes crashed overhead.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 27, 2007 at 3:09 PM Natalie the propaganda Queen!
In your first response you claim that the we the average American citizens have more and better resources (such as internet sites) that are used against “Jay Leno Americans” who are to stupid when given uncensored & unfiltered information to decipher truth from bulls**t.
I blew off your first response assuming even you would come to realize what a pathetic attempt it was at trying to explain away the exponential growth in the number of structural and fire engineers, professors, scholars, senior military, intelligence, law enforcement, government officials, 9/11 survivors, family members, firefighters, pilots, aviation professionals, Journalists, editors, authors, first responders, prosecutors and other legal professionals as well as the average American citizens who seriously doubt the official conspiracy theory.
But here you are still desperately trying to dismiss the fact that we the American people are up against the great Goliath of propaganda (the WH and MSM) in the ongoing information war.
For example when I talk to people about the building collapses on 9/11/2001, most people have never even heard about the destruction of World Trade Center Building No. 7 because the MSM treats it just like the 9/11 commission report did. THEY IGNORE IT!
This year’s 2007 Zogby poll revealed that 51% of all Americans think there’s been a cover-up and want a new investigation into these events.
67% fault the Commission for ignoring Building 7 and recently 9/11 Family Members held a press conference at the National Press Club in which they questioned ‘the entire veracity of the 9/11 Commission Report’ and called for a new and independent investigation. They stated that 70% of their questions went unanswered.
To understand why this is lets talk about “propaganda”, beginning with the “TRUE” quote from Joseph Goebbels:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the “STATE” can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the “STATE” to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the STATE.”
He intuitively understood that if you simply tell a lie, people who know (or find out) the truth will easily reject it. But if you tell a huge, enormous lie that is blatantly false, and repeat it over and over, people eventually will question their own ability to properly process the information, and they will come to believe it. In fact, as the lie continues to be repeated and reinforced they will believe it with great force—even when subsequently confronted with indisputable facts to the contrary. And as more people around them believe it, it becomes even more entrenched inside them (and also more difficult to resist the urge to conform).
But Joseph Goebbels also knew that one group would see through the propaganda no matter how often it was repeated.
“...there was no point in seeking to convert the intellectuals. For intellectuals would never be converted and would anyway always yield to the stronger, ‘and this will always be the man in the street.’ Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible, and appeal to emotions and instincts, not the intellect. Truth was unimportant and entirely subordinate to tactics and psychology… Hatred and contempt must be directed at particular individuals.” --Joseph Goebbels
All you have to do is tell the citizens they are being attacked, and denounce the intellectuals for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
“Naturally, the common people don’t want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country”
Hermann Goering---Hitler’s Reich-Marshall
at the Nuremberg Trials after WW II.
Posted by honestjoe on Nov 28, 2007 at 6:36 PM “Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play."Â
Joseph GoebbelsBecause of the use of “propaganda”, back in the day, if someone suggested that the Nazis torched the Reichstag building as a means of causing fear and panic among the population, and to blame the communists so they could easily eliminate them and help themselves rise to power; or the events that lead to the invasions of Poland and Czechoslovakia were staged for the Nazi’s benefit; they would have been called “nuts”. Yet, today we know it all to be true. Now, many years later, with much more sophisticated technologies of all types (including “propaganda” abilities) than they had back in the 1930s, is it possible that 911, the Iraq war, the saber rattling with Iran etc. are modern day equivalents of the events of the 1930s? Something to consider.
Williams was paid a quarter million dollars for his propaganda services to the administration.
$300 million for lies and propaganda to be feed to the American people.
Burson-Marsteller’s, and BKSH&Assocs;., has been hired by The Lincoln Group, one of three firms selected last month by the U.S. Special Operations Command to wage psychological warfare on behalf of the Pentagon.
Google and the CIA are involved with one another and are censoring information.
This isn’t the first time the search giant has been suspected of wrongdoing.
most claims of Google censorship involve the search engine being censored.
Americas News Media Worked Hand in Glove with the Central Intelligence Agency
“The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media.” ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over”
Joseph Goebbels“See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda.”
George W. Bush
Posted by honestjoe on Nov 28, 2007 at 6:41 PM Natalie
Look at what the MSM ignores even though its admitted by the government and documented about Cheney and Rumsfeld being involved in the chemical weapons and drug tests on US Soldiers in 1974 and 1975 at Edgewood Arsenal Md that violated the Nuremberg Code of 1947 they are to busy to deal with “real issues” WMD not in Iraq and Cheney lies and evidence links Saddam to Al Qaeda BS they refuse to look at real stories 7120 men used in CIA/Army experiments and 40% are already dead 2098 men and of the 4022 survivors 54% or 2200 men are disabled and no one will look at why it was ok for Cheney and Rumsfeld to authorize their use on american soldiers in the 70"s. Worse is the fact that the gas latter sold to Saddam through Rumsfeld was the product of those tests on American solders.
Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one’s self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice.
Yet even against these enormous odds the people are speaking up in larger numbers daily and you Natalie dismiss this huge growth to a massive propaganda campaign supported and funded by the vast resources of the evil citizens. Bwaaahahahahaha!
Pleases! Even this poll was reported with the usual bias given by the MSM.
Scripps Editors:
If you’re going to be so obviously one-sided, why bother pretending anymore?
Your article, “Many Americans still believe in conspiracies” tells only one side of each of the topics mentioned. This is disgraceful “journalism” that is clearly nothing more than a “hit piece.” Rather than examine why these views are so popular, you have insulted those who hold these views, and you have solicited analysis by psychologists in a most condescending and pretentious manner.
Interestingly enough you attack the very people who have answered your own polls, and who have given you different results than what is promoted in this article.
On the topic of JFK’s assassination, only Vincent Bugliosi is allowed to comment. Where is the other side? Where is any discussion of any of the evidence at all (other than the page count of his screed)? There are numerous authors and filmmakers who could have argued the opposite case, yet none appear.
After these results are printed, not one spokesman who came to this conclusion is queried:
“Nearly two-thirds of Americans think it is possible that some federal officials had specific warnings of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, but chose to ignore those warnings, according to a Scripps Howard News Service/Ohio University poll.”
Your permitted comments on this reality are offensive, dismissive, and quite frankly irrelevant.
None of the reasons is explored, none of the evidence whatsoever. Contrary opinions are sought exclusively, but with no honest examination of the subject matter.
Your publication should apologize and offer to do an honest investigation of the 9/11 government complicity issue. How difficult would it be to assign some professionals to investigate what “two-thirds of Americans” have already discovered on their own?
This condescending attack mode (which is prevalant across corporate media) is not carrying the day obviously, as your own polls indicate.
Written by the patriot johndoraemi
Posted by honestjoe on Nov 28, 2007 at 7:23 PM Reading through all your rambling machinations Joe, after six years, still not a SHRED OF ACTUAL PROOF regarding the involvement of anyone but al Qaeda in 9/11, nor a shred of proof that anyone knew any specifics in regards to pre-knowledge of 9/11. Just because the CIA, the military or other government agencies may have a certain influence on the media does not a controlled demolition or a Pentagon missile strike make.
John should be happy. Scripps didn’t ask specifics about 9/11 this time. Last time it was something like 6% believing in the CD baloney, and 5% in the Pentagon missile hoax.And minus any kind of evidence being put forth between then and now, the only reason for any increase in these numbers, and the reason for any increases for broader questions, would obviously be solely due to the Goebbels/Leno effect.
So .... proof? ________________
Posted by Natalie on Nov 28, 2007 at 9:00 PM Natalie
There is still not a SHRED OF ACTUAL PROOF or ANY HARD EVIDENCE to prove Bin Laden either funded or gave logistical support to the 9/11 terrorist according to the FBI.
But according to multiple intelligence agencies there is enough supporting evidence to conclude beyond any doubt that the terrorist had been STATE SPONSORED with money, intelligence and logistical support inside of the U.S. and the Bush administration blocked a congressional investigation into that relationship so they could invade two different countries even though there was NO HARD EVIDENCE or SHRED OF ACTUAL PROOF linking to 9/11 or anything else for that matter..
Now because of our invasions and on going occupations we are responsible for the deaths of over a million lives.
The worst thing of all is the fact that the two countries our government has invaded were “NOT” the two countries that our intelligence agencies stated there was incontrovertible evidence showing their support of the 9/11 terrorists in the U.S.!
So for what reason do we have to cause the slaughter of so many while bankrupting our nation and selling our children and our grandchildren into slavery through debt, in order to pay for the illegal invasions, occupations, theft and murders?
Does the Bush doctrine mean you are guilty until proven innocent? Well the White House is far from proving themselves innocent.
So should we have have a pre-emptive impeachment before we have a smoking gun in the form of another false flag attack?
Posted by honestjoe on Nov 29, 2007 at 12:18 AM Joe…
You illustrate perfectly the REAL reason for the proliferation of the 9/11 kook theories.
Science? No.
Evidence? No.
Disagreement with American foreign and/or domestic policy? Yes.
And of course let’s not minimize the money-making opportunities it brings to hundreds of websites and Internet radio operations. Imagine Alex Jones coming out and denouncing the “inside job” theory. ** Poof** .... there goes the audience.
Nobody has ever claimed that bin Laden was a hands-on funder or detail planner of the 9/11 attacks. There is no question, however, that al Qaeda, of which he is the spiritual head, was.
Once again ..... Proof? ____________
Posted by Natalie on Nov 29, 2007 at 4:02 AM Natalie
Sorry I’m having trouble with all the links and size so here is the short version while I fix the others.
EVIDENCE Part #1:
The warnings
The warnings explain why the national survey found that Nearly two-thirds of Americans think it is possible that some federal officials had specific warnings of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, but chose to ignore those warnings.
“The information provided by European intelligence services prior to 9/11 was so extensive that it is no longer possible for either the CIA or FBI to assert a defense of incompetence."
Warnings came from Afghanistan, Argentina, Britain, Cayman Islands, Egypt, France, Germany, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Morocco, and Russia. Many of those warnings specified the type of attack, a general time frame, and the location as either New York City or the World Trade Center. In at least two cases, the warnings actually mentioned hijackers by name.
This type of communication between intelligence agencies normally occurs in secret, so one can only wonder what additional warnings or details were provided to us that have never been made public.
But Ari Fleischer said the White House had “no warnings”!
On May 16, 2002, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice stated to the press: “I don’t think anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center, take another one and slam it into the Pentagon, that they would try to use an airplane as a missile.” She added that “even in retrospect” there was “nothing" to suggest that.
On October 17, 2002, CIA Director Tenet claimed that the only warnings “where there was a geographic context, either explicit or implicit, appeared to point abroad, especially to the Middle East.”
Yet even news papers reported more details than that in the moths before 9/11. “Newspapers in Germany, France, Russia and London reported in the months before September 11th of a blizzard of warnings delivered to the Bush administration from all points on the compass. The German intelligence service BND warned American and Israeli agencies that terrorists were planning to “HIJACK COMMERCIAL AIRCRAFT AND USE THEM AS WEAPONS TO ATTACK IMPORTANT AMERICAN TARGETS." Egypt warned of a similar plane-based plot against Bush during the G-8 summit in Genoa last June [2001], a warning taken so seriously that anti-aircraft batteries were placed around Columbus Airport in Italy. Last August [2001], Russian intelligence services notified the CIA that “25 TERRORIST PIOLTS HAD BEEN TRAINED FOR SUICIDE MISSIONS,” and Putin himself confirmed that this warning was delivered “in the strongest possible terms” specifically regarding threats to airports and government buildings.” -Newsweek, May 20, 2002
Also Counter-Terrorism Chief Richard Clarke - had called for an urgent NSC Principles meeting on Al-Qaeda on January 25th 2001(PDF) just five days after Bush inaguration - President Bush and his administration did nothing.
Then Rice continued the LIE when she stated in a March 22, 2004 Washington Post op-ed, “No al Qaeda plan was turned over to the new administration.”
Even worse is the FACT that Rice lied before the 9-11 Commission Condoleeza Rice claimed that she had “NOT” been presented a plan to address al-Qaeda.
Unfortunately for Rice there is proof she lied - the Plan she says she didn’t receive was attached the Clarke’s Jan 25th Memo and is Right Here.(PDF)
From Clarke’s Book “Against All Enemies” Page 236. “During the first week in July I convened the CSG and asked each agency to consider itself on full alert. I asked the CSG agencies to cancel summer vacations and official travel for the counterterrorism response staffs. Each agency should report anything unusual, even if a sparrow should fall from a tree. I asked FBI to send another warning to the 18,000 police departments, State to alert the embassies and the Defense epartment to go to Threat Condition Delta.”
Instead the only thing the administration had done before 9/11 was wire tapping and data mining of phone records.
They did not go into Threat Condition Delta, Clarke was ignored, and found his position downgraded. No longer would he be one of the NSC Principles (key members of the FAA, FBI, CIA and other agencies tasked with national Security issues) and no longer would he have the ability to call a Principles meeting in the case of an emergency. No significant policy attention was paid. Not until after September 11th and it made no difference.
Clarke’s memo wasn’t the only warning that was ignored.
CIA Director George Tenet and his counterterrorism head Cofer Black sought an urgent meeting with then-national security adviser Condoleezza Rice on July 10, 2001, writes Bob Woodward in his new book “State of Denial."
They went over top-secret intelligence pointing to an impending attack and “sounded the loudest warning” to the White House of a likely attack on the U.S. by Bin Laden.
Woodward writes that Rice was polite, but, “They felt the brushoff."
Rice then claimed the meeting “DID NOT” happen before the 9/11 commission.
Only latter, after being pushed further by concerned citizens (not the worthless 9/11 commission) Rice herself began to question if the meeting may have happened and said that it was “incomprehensible” the meeting included a warning that U.S. interests faced an imminent threat from al-Qaeda.
Then after that Rice changes her story again claiming that “IT DID” happen only that the threat “wasn’t that serious”.
But it was serious enough that instead of giving Tenet and Black the “Brush-off” she suggested that they repeat their presentation to Donald Rumself and John Ashcroft on July 17th.
Then on August 6th the President received a PDB (Presidential Daily Briefing) which was no doubt fostered by the efforts of Clarke and Tenet - which stated “Bin Ladin Determined to Strike Inside U.S.”.
Bush’s response to the briefer? “Well, now you’ve covered you’re ass.”
Speaking of covering ones ass, Natalie in the past you have excused their LIES as just plain CYA. The problem is why do you feel they needed to?
Because they feel the needed to lie don’t you think that even they themselves feel they have failed to do the job they were given?
Don’t you think that someone should be held accountable rather than promoted and given awards. By awarding them of their failures you place us all in grave danger if these same officials continue to be in charge of protecting us from terrorist attacks for what if these same officials wish to be awarded and given promotions again.
continued…
Posted by honestjoe on Nov 29, 2007 at 5:21 PM I guess I need to repost this:
Richard Clarke, the hard-driving counter-terrorism czar, testified before the 9-11 commission about pre-September 11 intelligence. He said that the number of al Qaeda threats and other terrorist threats was in the tens of thousandsprobably hundreds of thousands. But none of it contained specific information that could be used to stop the 9-11 plot. Clarke is even more emphatic in his book, Against All Enemies: Had we had any chance of stopping it, had we the knowledge we needed to prevent that day, those of us sitting as members of CSG [Counterterrorism Security Group] would literally have given our lives to do so; many of those around the CSG table had already put their lives at risk for their country.
What was lacking was actionable intelligence. To prevent the 9-11 attacks (or any terrorist attack), intelligence officials need to know the target, timing, and type of attack, what counterterrorism researcher Kevin Michael Derksen calls the three Ts of tactical intelligence. Without knowing all three elementswhen, where, and howan attack cannot be stopped. If you knew that al Qaeda was going to attack the World Trade Center on September 11, but assumed a truck bomb attack, you would be inspecting cars while the planes crashed overhead.
Nobody knew that a bunch of brainwashed bin Laden disciples were going to take over the controls of airliners in flight and crash them into the WTC and the Pentagon. Some people DID know the scoop on flight 93, a little late into the game, but still managed to prevent the destruction of the Whitehouse or Capitol Building. They had what would be termed as “actionable intelligence”.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 29, 2007 at 6:46 PM Natalie
I’m busy at the moment so I’ll finish the detailed posts later, for now I guess I need to repost this:
Many of those warnings specified the type of attack, a general time frame, and the location as either New York City or the World Trade Center. In at least two cases, the warnings actually mentioned hijackers by name.
How is that not specific information that could have been used as actionable intelligence?
The U.S. inteligence agencies were told specifically who, what, where, when, and HOW it was going to be done over 29 times and thats just talking about warnings from foreign governments, and excludes warnings from the US itself: its own communications intercepts, individuals with foreknowledge, suggestions from similar attacks, and the knowledge of American intelligence agents on the track of al-Qaeda.
One would think that, based on these warnings, the US would have dramatically increased its security.
The information they received was certainly enough to increase security and go into “Threat Condition Delta” and the information was far more detailed and more reliable than what the administration had concluded was sufficient enough to justify the slaughter of OVER A MILLION people.
The administration could have followed the Bush doctrine and preemptively increased security before there was an attack like what we had been warned about.
Instead the Administration gave absolutely “NO” warnings about any threats of hijackings or terrorism, to the airlines or the FAA as reported by Airline supervisors.
At the very least either some people within the US government knew the 9/11 attack would happen and did nothing, or some people within the US government failed to heed advice from a dozen foreign governments and properly defend the US from attack. Perhaps both. These people should be removed from office on the grounds of gross incompetence, or face the legal consequences of aiding and abetting terrorism. It seems clear that there are people who fear an investigation, and that that is why this as been buried for so long.
Posted by honestjoe on Nov 29, 2007 at 10:34 PM Well at least you apparently believe there were hijackers.
That’s refreshing!
Look, you can go round and round arguing who knew what when, and what should have prompted this person or that person to do this, that or the other thing.
But a lumbering, slumbering inherently inefficient and slow to respond bureaucracy that’s been with us for decades does not an “inside job” make.
Waaaay too boring for Alex Jones & co.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 30, 2007 at 11:56 AM Natalie
You said: “Well at least you apparently believe there were hijackers.”
What!?!
Here is just a “SMALL” sample (10) of the “MANY” points I have brought up through out this thread in regards to the alleged hijackers.
#1 The FBI’s testimony before the 9/11 Commission revealed that the largest overseas money transfer the terrorists received had come from the UAE, for $70,000 to Mohamed Atta. A copy of the money transfer was projected overhead but the FBI didn’t point out to the Commission the significance of the address where the money was wired to: 201 Nokomis in Venice, the address of the Kwik-Check owned by “Makram Chams” a consultant for an American defense contractor and an FBI informant. The Kwik-Check was where many of the alleged hijackers and even Zacharias Moussaoui would visit according witnesses for the FBI.
#2 The defense contractor consultant---convenience store owner---FBI informant (Makram Chams) who abandoned the mini-market on 9/11 (it has stood vacant since) now works in Saudi Arabia where he landed a $5 million contract in Riyadh for Surebeam with the Saudi Bin Laden Group.
A contract to protect Americans from anthrax attacks sent through the Post Office.#3 With a company that claims to specialize in counter-terrorism and has ties to an American defense contractor, Saudi Bin Laden Group, government officials, alleged hijackers, the CIA, 5 jets involved in drug busts of up to 5.5 tons of narcotics (some of which were also tied to the alleged hijackers), and ties with the flight school where some of the alleged hijackers trained at.
#4 Two of the alleged hijackers lived with a FBI informant in counter-terrorism specializing in Arabic terrorist who opened two accounts for the alleged hijackers in which he deposited money in both of the alleged hijackers accounts. The money that the FBI informant had given the alleged hijackers came form Saudi ambassador’s (Bandar Bush’s) wife totaling $130,000 in all.
#5 The DEA were secretly conducting an investigation of a narco-terorrist organization involved in heroin smuggling from the same apartment building that Atta was staying at which was located right by the flight school.
The DEA had already been tracking and monitoring al-Qa’ida as a narco-terorrist organization even before the State Departments designation of al-Qa’ida as a terrorist group in 1997. But the designation made it easier for the DEA to “SHARE” information with other enforcement and intelligences agencies and in the course of their investigations the DEA had identified several of the 9/11 terrorist with suspected ties to or directly engaged in heroin trafficking.
#6 The same month after Mohamed Atta arrived to attend his flight school in Venice, Huffman Aviation, the owner of that flight school, Wallace J. Hilliard, had his Lear jet (N351WB) confiscated on a runway at Orlando Executive Airport by DEA agents who found 43 pounds of Bin Laden’s best uncut Al Qaeda heroin on board. (It was, said the Orlando Sentinel, the “biggest drug bust in Central Florida history")
#7 That jet that belonged to terror flight school owner Wally Hilliard’s company Lear (N351WB) was leased to Jeb Bush (before, during and after the drug bust) for FREE! And speaking of free, the pilot and every one else got off scot-free!
Since then 4 other jets connected to the school and/or registered at its address have been busted transporting (up to 5.5 tons) drugs and ALL 4 jets had ties to the same defense contractor, Saudi Bin Laden Group, government officials, alleged hijackers, and the CIA. After each drug bust everyone again got off scot-free!
#8 The alleged hijackers where trained by our military specialized training at that. Mohamed Atta had attended International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, Ala. In addition, Abdulaziz Alomari had attended Aerospace Medical School at Brooks Air Force base in Texas, and Saeed Alghamdi had been to the Defense Language Institute in Monterrey, California. In March 1997, Saeed Alghamdi listed the address to register a 1998 Oldsmobile; five months later he used it again to register a second vehicle, a late model Buick. Drivers licenses thought to have been issued to the other two suspects list the barracks as their residences.
Military records also matched the addresses given by the alleged hijackers on their licenses and registrations which were the same addresses of where residences for foreign-military flight trainees are located. Their training was paid for by Saudi Arabia as part of the long-standing agreement with Saudi Arabia—a key ally in the 1990-91 gulfwar—to train pilots for its National Guard.
#9 The fact that the consultant for the defense contractor--convenience store owner--FBI informant was also partners in a firm with terror flight school owner Wally Hilliard who had (with the firm) mob connected partners with ties to Jack Abramoff whom through the firm owned a casino boat.
#10 A casino boat that some of the alleged hijackers had been identified as having visited. The fact that the CEO of the firm in partnership was a Tom Delay appointee and that the firm claims to specialize in counter-terrorism.
So Natalie, What exactly is so refreshing?
Posted by honestjoe on Nov 30, 2007 at 9:22 PM Natalie
You said: “Waaaay too boring for Alex Jones & co.”
Are you suggesting that these people (quoted bellow) are fans of Alex Jones and have been brain washed by him or are you suggesting that they don’t know what their talking about?
Or are you suggesting that they convinced Alex?
Quotes from those who work in and/or with “U.S. Intelligence Services”!
Robert David Steele (Vivas) – U.S. Marine Corps infantry and intelligence officer for twenty years. Second-ranking civilian (GS-14) in U.S. Marine Corps Intelligence from 1988 - 1992 and a member of the Adjunct Faculty of Marine Corps University. Also former clandestine services case officer with the CIA. 25-year U.S. military and intelligence career. Currently Founder and CEO of OSS.net and a proponent of Open Source Intelligence. Said:
Raymond L. McGovern – Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates, CIA, responsible for preparing the President’ Daily Brief (PDB) for Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. 27-year CIA veteran. Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer. Said:
Wayne Madsen – Former U.S. Navy Intelligence Officer, specialist in electronic surveillance and security. Formerly assigned to the National Security Agency and the State Department. Currently, investigative journalist, nationally distributed columnist, and author. Senior Fellow, Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC), a non-partisan privacy public advocacy group in Washington, DC. Frequent media commentator on terrorism and security matters. He said:
William Christison – Former National Intelligence Officer and Director of the CIA’s Office of Regional and Political Analysis. 29-year CIA veteran. Said:
Capt. Eric H. May, U.S. Army (ret) – Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer. Former inspector and interpreter for the Intermediate Nuclear Forces Treaty team. He said:
Capt. Gregory M. Zeigler, PhD, U.S. Army – Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer said:
Major General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret) – Former Commanding General of U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, 1981 - 1984. Also commanded the U.S. Army’s Electronic Research and Development Command and the U.S. Army’s Intelligence School and Center. Former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence. 32-year Army career. He said:
Barbara Honegger, MS – Senior Military Affairs Journalist at the Naval Postgraduate School, the U.S. Navy’s advanced science, technology and national security affairs university (1995 - present). White House Policy Analyst and Special Assistant to the Assistant to President Ronald Reagan (1981 - 1983). She said:
Robert Baer – Former CIA Case Officer, Specialist in the Middle East, Directorate of Operations. Awarded Career Intelligence Medal. 21-year CIA veteran was asked by Thom Hartmann: “Are you of the opinion there was an aspect of ‘inside job’ to 9/11 within the U.S. government?” Robert Baer said:
“There is that possibility, the evidence points at it.”
Sibel D. Edmonds – Witness before the 9/11 Commission. Former Language Translation Specialist, performing translations for counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations, FBI. She names Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Marc Grossman, and others for crimes of treason!
Congressman Curt Weldon – Former 10-term Congressman from Pennsylvania 1987 - 2006. Former Vice Chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee. Former Vice Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. He said:
Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, U.S. Army Reserve – Commander of Special Troops Battalion, 9th Theater Support Command. Former Chief of the Army’s Controlled HUMINT (Human Intelligence) Program, overseeing Army Intelligence and Security Command’s global controlled HUMINT efforts. A former member of the Able Danger data mining program that targeted Al Qaeda’s global structure. Awarded the Bronze Star for bravery. Fellow, Center for Advanced Defense Studies. 23-year military intelligence career. Regarding the Able Danger project he said:
James D. Smith - Former Able Danger Program Manager for Orion Scientific Systems, a Department of Defense contractor. Previously at Orion, managed and performed criminal intelligence support activities within the Gulf States Initiative (GSI) Program – a joint federal (U.S. Army and National Guard) and multi-state project (Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia and Mississippi).He said:
Capt. Scott J. Phillpott, U.S. Navy – Commanding Officer of the guided-missile cruiser USS Leyte Gulf. Former head of the Able Danger data mining program that targeted Al Qaeda’s global structure. Former commanding officer of the frigate USS Estocin. Former Commanding Officer of the coastal patrol ship USS Typhoon. U.S. Naval Academy graduate. Awards include the Legion of Merit, Defense Meritorious Service Medal, three Meritorious Service Medals, the Joint Service Commendation Medal, two Navy Commendation Medals, and the Navy Achievement Medal. 23 years of Navy service. He said:
“My story has remained consistent. Atta was identified by Able Danger in January/February 2000.”
Major Erik Kleinsmith, U.S. Army - Former Chief of Intelligence, Land Information Warfare Activity (LIWA). Awarded Meritorious Service Medal, Army Commendation Medal, Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, and the National Defense Service Medal. 14-year Army career. Currently Project Manager for Intelligence Analytical Training, Lockheed Martin Company. He said:
General Wesley Clark, U.S. Army (ret) – Former Commanding General of U.S. European Command, which included all American military activities in the 89 countries and territories of Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. Additionally, Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR), which granted him overall command of NATO military forces in Europe 1997 - 2001. Awarded Bronze Star, Silver Star, and Purple Heart for his service in Viet Nam and numerous subsequent medals and citations. Graduated valedictorian of his class at West Point. He Said:
Coleen Rowley – Former Special Agent and Minneapolis Division Counsel, FBI. 24-year FBI career. Agent Rowley was selected one of Time Magazine’s three 2002 Persons of the Year for revealing FBI headquarters’ efforts to “throw up roadblocks and undermine” FBI field investigations of Al Qaeda operatives in the four weeks prior to 9/11. She said:
Daniel Ellsberg, PhD – Former Special Assistant to the Assistant Secretary of Defense. Former State Department envoy to Viet Nam. While working for the government, Ellsberg attained the ultimate civil service grade of GS-18, equivalent to a Major General. Former U.S. Marine Corps officer. Former military analyst for the Rand Corporation. Most well known for leaking the Pentagon Papers to the New York Times in 1971. He said:
Bogdan Dzakovic – Witness before the 9/11 Commission. 14-year Counter-terrorism expert in the Security Division of the Federal Aviation Administration. Team Leader of the FAA’s Red (Terrorism) Team, which conducted undercover tests on airport security through simulated terrorist attacks. Former Team Leader in the Federal Air Marshal program. Former Coast Guard officer. Said:
“...I think the 9/11 Commission Report is treasonous.”
John Loftus (Former Federal Prosecutor, Office of Special Investigations, U.S. Department of Justice under Presidents Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan; former U.S. Army Intelligence officer; currently a widely-sought media commentator on terrorism and intelligence services).said:
Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret) – Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense during the Reagan Administration and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran (two Silver Stars, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart). Appointed by President George H.W. Bush to serve on the American Battle Monuments Commission (1990 - 1994), and on the 1992 Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces. Military Historian and Deputy Director of Field Operations for the U.S. Marine Corps Historical Center, Washington, D.C. 1990 - 1994. Voiced his doubts about the official story of 9/11 - calling it:
Steve Elson – Former Special Agent with the U.S. Navy, DEA and FAA. Specialist in Counterterrorism, Intelligence, and Security. Twenty-two years military experience, primarily in Naval Special Warfare and nine years Federal service with the FAA and DEA. Retired Navy Seal. Said:
Senator Mike Gravel – Former U.S. Senator from Alaska 1969 - 1980. Currently, candidate for the Democratic nomination for the 2008 Presidential election. Most well known for entering over 4,000 page of the the Pentagon Papers into the U.S. Senate record, thus making public the secret official study that revealed the lies and manipulations of successive U.S. administrations that misled the country into the Vietnam War. (See also Daniel Ellsberg.) Also known for his successful one-man filibuster for five months in 1971 that forced the Nixon administration to cut a deal, effectively ending the draft (military conscription) in the United States. Former Member, Alaska House of Representatives 1962-1966, elected Speaker in 1965. Former Counter-Intelligence officer, U.S. Army. Founder, The Democracy Foundation. Author of Citizen Power: A People’s Platform (1972), Pentagon Papers, In Four Volumes: The Defense Department History of United States Decisionmaking on Vietnam (1971), Jobs and More Jobs (1968). Contributing author to The Case for a Nuclear Moratorium (1974). Said:
Posted by honestjoe on Nov 30, 2007 at 9:58 PM Oh, so, you believe there were hijackers but they were U.S. government trained plants? That it? Please clear this up, if you might.
Along with no actual proof of anything, you’re pretty short on links there, Joe. Most of this stuff I think was debunked long ago.
Might we have the opportunity to judge the quality and entire context of your source material? (not an avalanche, just a few links)
And by what leap of logic are we to entertain that you or the “truth” movement are somehow better equipped and qualified than the FBI to make determinations of guilt?
How many dozens and dozens of supposed “facts” coming from the “truth” movement have turned out to have been taken out of context, only partially true, or flat-out fabrications?
Posted by Natalie on Nov 30, 2007 at 10:06 PM Uh...Joe......Those people are all either right-wing wackos and/or kooks, or they’re making money off the “movement”. Or they plan to.
The simplest explanation is usually the most accurate.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 30, 2007 at 10:11 PM {{{ The simplest explanation is usually the most accurate. }}}
The simplest explanation that accounts for all of the facts and doesn’t defy the laws of physics.
Curious how we don’t have a table specifying the TONS OF STEEL and TONS OF CONCRETE on every level of the WTC.
That must be so difficult for a building designed in the 1960’s.
psik
Posted by psikeyhackr on Feb 14, 2008 at 11:08 AM Honestjoe, are you still out there (no irony intended)? Fascinating reading your comments make. Thanks. I think the ultimate proof that America has been/is being serially date-raped is that in every single case where there has been suspected malfeasance by the Bush Ad. when proof has been attainable it has proven the worst. Machievellian methods are being used by Rove/Cheney to do the ultimate damage to America for the interests of the very, very elite of this world. We need to decide, do we want America to be Rove/Cheneyesque in character or do we want to be Jeffersonian. Palin is now on the scene and in story after story, in source after source it’s clear she is extremist, vindictive, dishonest, abusive of the processes and means of the governing bodies she has taken control of to benefit the elite corporate interests who use her. Full of Hate. Seems familiar. Scary times.
Time to make a choice....third time, you really are out.
Posted by anonys on Sep 18, 2008 at 1:17 AM I cannot live with this shame.
On p. 9 of this long thread, years ago, I said the evidence was circumstantial. It is concrete. I brushed off the controversy because I couldn’t stand the cognitive dissonance of knowing that a criminal faction in the government of the country I love helped chop one foot off of Liberty on this planet by fostering a spectacular event of mass murder, and tricking millions into accepting their fascist agenda thereby.
I make no claim to grasp enough physics to know why exactly the Towers fell as they did, and “experts” on both sides of the argument don’t enlighten me (however, architect Richard Gage brings a compelling and evidence-based argument), but after looking at a mountain of information, my humiliation is entire because I must conclude that I was taken in. My emotional reaction from having seen the Towers fall on television misled me. At the least, it was let to happen. I’ve come to think it was made to happen, and my former endorsement of the invasion of Afghanistan in pursuit of a “terrorist” who for years worked with the CIA is now ashes in my mouth.
It doesn’t have to be the whole “government”, as if hundreds of legislators, the entire White House staff, and everyone in the armed forces had to go along. A relatively small percentage of decision-makers could do it, exactly as they’ve done it in the past. Criminal factions and criminal plots are already on the record as being part of US govt activities that targeted elected foreign heads of state for overthrow (Allende, Mossadegh) and that lied to the public about “unprovoked” attacks or threats that justified war (e.g. Pearl Harbor, Tonkin Gulf, WMDs in Iraq). It’s no big stretch of the imagination, it’s on the record.
I’ve been bothered by the Truth movement for years, and had to check for myself.
I’ve spent years researching, and devoted hundreds of hours figuring and trying to find the information that would answer my questions. Hoping to be reassured but instead knowing that I was betrayed, and so were we all.
Consider dispassionately:
-the mathematical odds of three steel-frame skyscraper collapses in a single day due to “fire”, never before or since repeated even one single time, much less 3 times in less than 12 hours.
-the first-ever immobilization of NORAD during aircraft hijacks and the failure to scramble jets from Andrews airbase, which is practically next door to the Pentagon, for an hour or more after at least one Tower had been hit and other aircraft were known to be off-course… NORAD having been under the direct command of Dick Cheney, which unprecedented transfer of power away from military personnel was done only a few months before the mass murder.
-put-options, which predict the fall in the price of shares of stock as a mechanism for profit taking, having been made to the tune of hundreds of millions and in totally disproportionate amounts, on the shares of the air carriers used in the attacks… just those carriers.
-the pulverization of virtually every item in WTC 1 and 2, including neat little segments of steel box girders ready to take away for disposal nothing like a real fire-caused collapse, which would be asymmetrical.
-the vivid conflict of interest and half-truths that characterized the so-called “9/11 Commission’s” whitewash of the events, and which totally ignored a massively significant event, e.g. WTC 7s symmetrical collapse at freefall speed.
...and so on. Go search, and guard your feelings when you do. Watch out for all the polemics.
Forget “belief”. Fuck belief. Who gives a damn what you or I or anyone believes? Belief is an emotional attachment, it’s a way of clinging to something you can’t address logically. Consider the evidence, and quit talking about what you “believe”. All that shit is part of the misleading, to focus you on emotional objects instead of straight-up information. Part of the dumbing down.
...continues…
Posted by Kuya on Sep 19, 2008 at 11:48 PM ...continued from above…
But don’t let minutia and elaborate attempts to distract you by way of tricky use of language mislead you. Just the facts, the ugly, sad, infuriating, cold mf’n facts, as best you can extract them after 7 stinking, police-state, Constitution-destroying, pre-emptive war-crime years.
Go research. Search “9/11 Truth” via Google, MSN, Firefox, whatever, and follow things up. Be skeptical. Force them to convince you with something other than appeals to your patriotism, your horror and aversion to the idea of blindingly cynical mass murder, your support of or opposition to the Iraq War (a prior agenda of the backers and idea-people of the current criminal administration). Set aside your respect for the office of president, your admiration for the risks uniformed troops have been misled to take, and your faith in whatever you have faith in. Forget faith. Look at the evidence. Look at on-the-record reports from those days. Look at who Philip Zelikow is, the point man for the 9/11 Commission’s research processes. Follow the links that posters here on this long thread have offered. Wade through the shit. Take the time.
The official explanation is bullshit, wouldn’t stand up to scrutiny in a county court in a rural county in any state in the union.
The so-called investigation was rife with conflict of interest, and totally ignored massive events, including the symmetrical collapse of a building that wasn’t hit by an aircraft. Doesn’t even mention it. Look it up.
Aircraft-grade aluminum, titanium-steel aircraft engines, human bodies, aircraft seats and the baggage in the cargo hold, can’t “vaporize” as the damned liars told us they did, not at the maximum temperatures that any of the crashes could have involved. Look it up.
Testimony on the day of the crime and several days after it, by emergency responders who were there at the time, speaks of rapid-fire serial explosions. “Boom-boom-boom-boom…” This is even visible to the eye in all 3 cases, and in the case of WTC 7, the line of explosions actually crawls up the windows, at least five of them, right at the top floors of the building, far from the fires and directly proceeding the inward-sinking of the penthouse, right before the freefall-speed collapse. Just like a controlled demolition. Look it up.
Go look for yourself, and fuck belief. Stop talking about belief. Evidence is what counts. FBI chief Robert Mueller even admitted that we didn’t have enough evidence to even hold Osama bin Laden responsible, and who is that actor who played him on the supposed videotape, claiming responsibility? Doesn’t even look like him, except that he wears a beard. Wrong nose, wrong complexion, wrong shape of brow, it ain’t him.
I’m really so ashamed to have been duped like this, and here we are 7 years later. It fucking burns.
There is a war against crazy-assed jihadists, who want to turn back the clock to medieval times, that is for sure. And it’s also for-sure that they received millions in US tax dollars in the last 30 years. Bin Laden’s family were flown out of the country when no one else was allowed to fly! The jihadists are a true enemy, no question. But there’s also a war on against fascistic powers who use the existence of murderous religious zealots to trick us into accepting their erasure of hard-won freedom and their tricking our young men and women into fighting to help forward their cause of dominating the energy resources of this planet, which is to say, the domination of us all. Fuck you if you help them do it. Don’t believe me, I don’t want you to. Get cold, for once. Stop talking about belief or feeling and go look it up. Use your fucking brain, and quit getting lost in these idiotic online debates. I challenge you. If only I’d challenged myself properly all those months ago. So bitter. I can’t live with this.
Posted by Kuya on Sep 19, 2008 at 11:49 PM I find it really disgusting that my reaction to what has happened since 9/11 has become one of laughter.
Curiously the World Trade Center was destroyed 70 years after the completion of the Empire State Building. The ESB was designed and constructed without the use of computers. They did not exist.
But SEVEN YEARS after the destruction most people in the nation that put men on the moon can’t think to ask the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level of the WTC. It is impossible to build a skyscraper that tall and heavy without figuring that out before digging the hole for the foundation. A building that expensive must be costed out pretty well before the investors put up the money.
So when the airliner hit the building two things happened. The plane punched a hole doing structural damage and the building was pushed off center starting an oscillation. The NIST says the south tower oscillated for FOUR MINUTES after impact and the 70th floor deflected by 12 inches even though it was 130 feet below the impact. It took a lot of energy to shake that building. So it is impossible to compute the amount of energy that did structural damage without computing how much shook the tower and that cannot be computed without distribution of mass.
In only two places in their entire 10,000 page report does the NIST say the distribution of weight or mass are necessary to analyze what happened to the buildings but that should be obvious from the very nature of skyscrapers. This is a physics problem so simple that high school students should have been able to figure out in a few months that airliners could not do that to buildings that size in so little time. For this to go on for SEVEN YEARS in the nation that put men on the moon is HILARIOUS. I just can’t maintain angry indignation any longer.
One would think that even the liberal arts morons in the media would be able understand the importance of the distribution of steel and concrete in a skyscraper by now.
psik
PS - I went to one of Gage’s seminars and emailed him in 2007. He is not talking about the distribution of mass in the towers and explaining its importance. With the computing power available today he should be able to compute what the distribution of steel had to be. What kind of computers did they have in the early 60s?
Posted by psikeyhackr on Sep 28, 2008 at 1:55 AM -
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