The 9/11 Faith Movement

THE ZOMBIE TERRORISTS

The manner in which banal circumstances mutate into shadowy mysteries under such conditions is evident in an odd story that caused Mzoudi’s attorney Rosenthal to engage in some speculation in court: the news that at least six of the alleged hijackers were supposedly alive and their voices were being broadcast live through various media outlets several days after the attacks.

Bradley tells us that at the time his reporters did not speak directly with the so-called “survivors,” but instead combined reports from other Arab papers. These reports, says Bradley, appeared at a time when the only public information about the attackers was a list of names that had been published by the FBI on September 14th. The FBI did not release photographs until four days after the cited reports, on September 27th.

cont.....

Batgirl you are also implying we must Imagine that Islamofacsists were responsible for 9/11.  Without any proof this was so, and lacking even sufficient evidence for the FBI to charge him, this alos becomes an act of faith Natalie.  That it is a whole lot of imagining you are asking us to do to try and support something which is supposed to be an officially sanctioned conclusion.  Isn’t that just a whisper away from Faith, or even the same thing?

Rabbit has earned the right to ignore the moronic drivel of the undead Scorpse, he cannot dent Rabbit’s batle ship of truth and logic.  I can easily lose half the things presented in my case and still have vastly more evidence for it than the official faith based story.

Your own words are dripping with self Irony Natty and it’s a pity you can’t enjoy the effect from where rational people stand.  Its quite comical. 

You ask me to imagine, you present debateable theories and make huge leaps of faith above all.  You expect us to suspend the physical laws of the universe, ignore the evidence of our eyes and our ears.  You expectm us to believe one thing for the first half of your fantasies, such as incredible luck and amazing co-incidences and another for the other part, unmatched planning and skills. 

Everything you say, what little isn’t just pure prevarication and false claims made about sources you don’t even read or think we won’t, just would diminish a single solitary piece of evidence without ever once breaking the consistency and weight of the evidence amassed for our case.  Like I say we could drop half the evidence and still have a very string case, proveable in itself even.

You on the other hand stand in the exact opposite position.  You have nothing to lose, since you have nothing beyond speculation, and theory.  Even about who did it or why.  You have no factually based answers to any of this and what you propose is contradictory.  You must build a case from scratch.  So far you have a strong faith based comittment to a farcical scenario, which though it is historically enough to form a religion, it won’t convince us in this instance.

On the basis of his work and posting on the subject to date the rabbit feels entitled to ignore any more paltry requests for justification from a confused mental cripple like Corpse or a retarded moral vacuum like Natalie.

pt. 2......

The photographs quickly resolved the nonsense about surviving terrorists. According to Bradley, “all of this is attributable to the chaos that prevailed during the first few days following the attack. What we’re dealing with are coincidentally identical names.” In Saudi Arabia, says Bradley, the names of two of the allegedly surviving attackers, Said al-Ghamdi and Walid al-Shari, are “as common as John Smith in the United States or Great Britain.”

If Bulow had inquired with the airline, he would have discovered that the name of the pilot who lives in Casablanca is Walid al-Shri and not, like that of the assassin, Walid al-Shari. This minor detail makes a big difference, namely the difference between a dead terrorist and a living innocent man. But to conspiracy theorists, discovering the truth is like solving a crossword puzzle for children: What’s a four-letter word for a domesticated animal? Hrse.

Oh my mymarkx, don’t tell me you’re fourteen too!!  Is this what I have to look forward to in another six years?  (my son.....he’s......eight now)

OK, Rabbit.  I suspected you wouldn’t be able to suspend fantasy long enough to contemplate reality.

Sleep on it, perhaps.  Take a walk on the beach.  Ask yourself this simple question, over and over:

What if all those professional engineers are right and lil ‘ol average Joe me is wrong?

Natalie

Natalie there is more than Jone’s scientific analysis of the Thermite residues, liar liar pants on fire.

MyMarkx

Natalie has long since been shown the proof of the living hijackers and conceded it.  She then claimed that this just meant they used false IDs. 

Which brings us the full circle, back to the second fake OBL admissionn tape which named all nineteen as per the official list and the lack of video evidence or even an appearance on the original passenger lists of their names.

Can anyone say cockup?

What if all those professional engineers are right and lil ‘ol average Joe me is wrong

Natalie I am supposing all those professional engineers, especially the non government employed ones, are right.  Their opinions are quite good enough for me, and the science isn’t hard to understand and I do anyway.  The opinions of the officially employed few, by far the minority of voices who are publically supporting either theory, are to me and any thinking person, irrelevant.  Especially when the best they can muster is qualified theories which we can verify are based upon the selective censorship of important and certain facts.

So on the basis of an unbroken, interlocking chain of evidence, and supported by the preponderance of scholarly and qualified and independent commenters on the subject, the rabbit is going with 3 times controlled demolitions simultaneous with a crew of prepared patsies but overseen by the inimitable NeoCon/ MOSSAD connection.  That’s got my vote and presumably of the population on this thread, not counting the undead.

The lagomorph jury is out about the Pentagon, but believe it is this aspect which involves most false disinfo as well as far reaching conclusions.  Some very substantial actions have apparently been taken by units of one or two branches of the Armed services, but to what extent the speculation available is to be believed is harder to decide upon than the simple WTC collapses.

First they told us it was Osama bin Laden.

Now they say it wasn’t Osama bin Laden.

Okay, so they made a mistake. Anybody can make a mistake.

Just because there was one case of mistaken identity, doesn’t necessarily mean that there were others.

Oh, but they’ve admitted that some of the torture victims in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo were also cases of mistaken identity.

Okay, just because there were many cases of mistaken identity, doesn’t necessarily mean that there were also a few more than they’ve admitted to.

But it does mean that they do make mistakes, they have made mistakes, they admit to having made mistakes, so it is possible that they made mistakes.

The FBI admitted to having known about some of the supposed hijackers before 9/11. I guess they made a mistake in not pursuing those investigations. Or in not heeding warnings from other countries. Or in not translating other warnings in time.

Somehow, I don’t have much faith in people who could make so many mistakes. In fact, in a wild leap of deductive reasoning, I think they’re actually capable of making mistakes.

But I don’t expect them to ever catch the people behind 9/11 or the anthrax killer. Their top priority is catching bunny lovers and tree huggers, people who have caused property damage but have never harmed an animal or a human. So the FBI’s goal must be to protect property, not people. In fact, if you kill people, they probably won’t direct as many resources at going after you as they will if you try to save animals from torture or trees from clearcutting. If all you do is kill people, they don’t seem to see you as a priority. Maybe they identity with people who kill people because they also do wet jobs. People who kill people must be the FBI’s friends and natural allies, just as people who try to stop torture and the destruction of the environment are their enemies. Even so, they still can’t be seen as very efficient or competent, as 9/11 didn’t just kill people, it also destroyed a lot of property. Maybe the reason ALF and ELF are top priorities is that they’ve destroyed property that wasn’t fully insured? That the owners didn’t want destroyed yet because they weren’t ready to collect on the insurance?

I’m really grateful to be able to idly speculate like this. Because at this very moment the FBI could be making a mistake that could obliterate my entire city. A mistake like going after tree huggers instead of after real terrorists. Some people have even speculated that the explanation is that the FBI might actually BE the real terrorists. That really terrifies me. I’d prefer to think they were just incompetent.

You know it always amuses me to think that no matter how much the Gnat scrabbles away at trying to make something of the existence of these alleged hijackers, she cannot take such a thing beyond first base anyway.

So what if there were these magic arabs?  It is known that some of them had connections to US intelligence and others lived on the same road as a number of Israeli intelligence operatives who were rounded up and expelled at the same time.

It is known that they were known about but the information always supressed.  The flight schools and training is as closely linked with the military as the other great co-incidence of the proximity of the magic arabs to the MOSSAD agents, the removalists and art merchants.

It is known that all lacked any but the most rudimentary flying skills and couldn’t probably even turn a heavy jetliner, let alone fly it like a fighter plane.

Even then it doesn’t matter whether or not the nineteen patsies were in place, I’m sure some were or someone else like them.  I suspect the reason that none of them were filmed getting on the planes (I assume they were not for they will not let us see any footage showing them getting on planes) is the same as the reason that none of them had their names on the passenger lists.  A typical signature Neocon screwup.  They bypassed the normal arangements to get these guys onboard in the first place, and they probably were armed with more than boxcutters in this case.  Thus no names on lists, no video, and the need to toss a passport at the feet of some Kojak who was looking skyward at the time.

This would be entirely consistent with the scenario, and nothing about the explosive demolition contention is reliant in any way upon the means or manner in which the jets were commandeered to be flown into the buildings.  That they did fly in is self evident.  Exactly which jets in each case cannot be known with certainty and there is some genuine reasons to doubt the identities of at least two of the jets.  Not one thing but several interlocking bits of evidence what is more.  Witnesses and Video footage which suggest that different planes than those proposed were involved, and then the co-incidence of the weirdness with the de-registration detailed above.  Even the fact that some evidence exists that one or more of these same planes was reported landing at a cleveland airport and evacuating its passengers into a secure facility.

The existence of some sort of magic arab diversion is not in dispute in an over arching sense.  Rabbit frankly accepts it in principle.  He doubts that any of the players in fact were directly related to OBL, beyond in a capacity as double agent.  Even the involvment of OBL would not put a spanner in the works since we already know he is in every sense connected directly to the Bush family and is both created and to all intents and purposes controlled by the Bushling regime.

The controlled demolition contention is beyond being called a theory and can be used at least provisionally I feel.  It earns this right more than some cockeyed mumbo jumbo with nothing but musings and faith to back it.

This fact exists independently of any Magic Arabs, or any means actually employed to get the planes to their targets, or which planes exactly did what, and where.  The question has often been asked well what about the passengers, when we consider plane substitution.

I am surprised that anyone would be naive enough to even ask this at this stage. These people have gleefully and enthusiastically slaughtered close to a half million people and poisoned and maimed many more and you doubt they would baulk at killing another plane load or two more?  They were already pulling off the controlled demos of the three towers, maiking mega bucks for Larry Silverstein and getting a big button to start any war they could think of almost, why worry about a couple hundred more? 

Rabbit would not be surprised if many of those passengers might have ended up as guinea pigs in secret science experiments or something.  Nothing would be too evil for these baby gobbling monsters in power no act too depraved.  They jacked each other off in a coffin with a bunch of other rich perverts watching in debauched ceremonies as teenagers, they grew up in a society where Necrophilia and beastiality are adventures, rites of passage even.  They don’t consider that any reality exists but the one they decree and pay to have spun.

In every important respect they, like you their eminent shill are wrong.

They are not more deserving, they are certainly not more intelligent or more competent.  They are not better and they are not special in any way, beyond the fact they are the most loathesome dregs of the worst plague of racial degeneracy ever to encumber the human race.  Their time is nearing its end, they are self consuming and incapable of building anything which lasts. 

Power is not a thing which lasts longer than one takes to use it.........

Their lies like their empires will all be swept away in the end. 
We know the story from here on in, we’ve been here before.

Rabbit.

Have you started talking to the writer, Terry Allen?

Who will arrest the Fox anchors?

I�m really grateful to be able to idly speculate like this. Because at this very moment the FBI could be making a mistake that could obliterate my entire city. A mistake like going after tree huggers instead of after real terrorists. Some people have even speculated that the explanation is that the FBI might actually BE the real terrorists. That really terrifies me. I�d prefer to think they were just incompetent.

Sleep with one eye open, perhaps.  Stay away from trees as well, just to be on the safe side. 

You really didn’t know that the “hijackers still alive” story was a myth, did you?

I fail to see the relevance of the Amsterdam flat crash, wiley.  Are you trying to say that because this structure didn’t totally collapse, it somehow means that the WTC towers shouldn’t have?

This was only a nine or ten story structure, obviously of completely different construction.  Firefighters were on the scene immediately, and were likely able to reach the fire, even at the top.  Actually, the part where the plane crashed into the building did collapse, or so it seems from the picture.  The plane was certainly going very slow, as it wasn’t piloted by brainwashed islamic murderers.

The WTC towers had lightweight steel truss construction, and were nearly a quarter mile high.  They were hit at 4-5 hundred miles per hour because the planes were piloted by brainwashed islamic murders.  The fires were not accessible to firefighters.  The insulation on the trusses, probably on multiple floors, was knocked off, or was flakey to begin with.  Uninsulated steel fails.

What exactly are the big mysteries in all this?

“Rabbit would not be surprised if many of those passengers might have ended up as guinea pigs in secret science experiments or something.”

I was thinking maybe that’s what happened to Jimmy Walter.

“Even then it doesn’t matter whether or not the nineteen patsies were in place, I’m sure some were or someone else like them.  I suspect the reason that none of them were filmed getting on the planes (I assume they were not for they will not let us see any footage showing them getting on planes.”

That’s the way it works, isn’t it?  One of your myths is totally debunked and the response invariably is:  “It doesn’t matter”

Who’s really operating on faith here?

I seem to remember lots of footage of at least some of them getting on planes.  Was I dreaming?  Let me guess.....it was all faked by.....uh.....Norm Manetta!

“Natalie has long since been shown the proof of the living hijackers and conceded it.  She then claimed that this just meant they used false IDs.”

First of all, what proof?  More reports from a few days after 9/11?  I don’t think I ever conceded anything relating to live hijackers.  My question when you brought it up was why haven’t we seen video or even any pictures of these guys, who would surely want to clear their names.

Shortly after, I found proof that the whole thing was a big mixup, and that the stories coming out so soon after 9/11 were simply, and perhaps understandably mistaken.

Nat spat:

>The fires were not accessible to firefighters.

So why did the lying mainstream media tell us that two of the firefighters had reached the fires, said that they were small and controllable, and asked that hoses be brought up?

>That�s the way it works, isn�t it?  One of your myths is totally debunked and the response invariably is:  �It doesn�t matter�

No, the way it works is that when several of YOUR fantasies are totally debunked, Nat, your response invariably is, “It doesn’t matter.”

With hurricane Katrina in New Orleans FEMA demonstrated complete ineptitude. With 9/11 our country’s air defenses failed totally. Our military appears bogged down in Iraq. The FBI still hasn’t caught the anthrax killer. The only way you can say that this isn’t one of the most evil regimes in history, is to say that it is one of the most incompetent. But if they’re so incompetent, how come they’re all so rich?

“The FBI still hasn’t caught the anthrax killer.”

paging Dr. Zack

the FBI would like to speak with you about your actions before you were fired from the anthrax lab.

it has come to their attention you entered the lab after you were let go.

So why did the lying mainstream media tell us that two of the firefighters had reached the fires, said that they were small and controllable, and asked that hoses be brought up?

If they are liars, then apparently firefighters didn’t reach the fires, and the firefighters actually didn’t say anything about the fires, and they didn’t ask for any hoses.  The firefighter in question didn’t reach the upper stories until late in the game, and the particular zone that he was in certainly didn’t represent the multi-floor inferno as a whole. 

No, the way it works is that when several of YOUR fantasies are totally debunked, Nat, your response invariably is, “It doesn�t matter.”

Still smarting about those zombie hijackers I see, to the point of demonstrating symptoms of projection.

With hurricane Katrina in New Orleans FEMA demonstrated complete ineptitude. With 9/11 our country�s air defenses failed totally. Our military appears bogged down in Iraq. The FBI still hasn’t caught the anthrax killer. The only way you can say that this isn’t one of the most evil regimes in history, is to say that it is one of the most incompetent. But if they�re so incompetent, how come they�re all so rich?

Putting aside the fact that most of this is about as true as hijackers still being alive, how does this in any way shape or form even begin to commence to prove the CD theory?  Or, as I suspect, is it simply a lot of angry emoting that is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.  There hasn’t been an administration in the history of the Republic that hasn’t had its share of problems and controversies, and each and every one of them could quite easily be framed in such a way as to portray it as the most evil, or if it’s convenient, the most incompetent regime in history.

Oh, Natalie, I’m not presenting any arguments or “evidence”.  I’d rather have a bat tattoed on my ass than to “argue” or “debate” with you.

I was giving the other guys food for thought.  You do understand life outside of constructing “arguments” and the futililty of “proving” something with them, don’t you? You apparently aren’t very persuasive, but a few people really enjoy picking through your buckets of weasel words and making sure that the challenges to the official story are still alive and kicking.

This editing option is great, btw.

“Oh, Natalie, I�m not presenting any arguments or �evidence�.......I was giving the other guys food for thought.”

I suspected not, but I thought I’d check, just to be sure there wasn’t more beneath the surface.  I see you were just feeding the skeptoids.  Marky certainly gobbled up what you tossed him.

Any more yummy morsels?

Hmm.....that tatoo idea......I like it!!  (for me, I mean)

Natalie

That’s the way it works, isn’t it?  One of your myths is totally debunked and the response invariably is:  “It doesn’t matter”

Rabbit shall try and use simple words for you poor bat.  You are clearly only firing on two cylinders here.  No it isn’t the way it works.  The theorising about the hijackings is an entirely independent matter, from the collapses of the buildings, that my dear is simple logic.  Say it over in your mind a few times, see if you can understand the meaning of the words in that order.  How exactly the planes came to do what they did, is not part of the interlocking chain of evidence which proves quite convincingly that the buildings were brought down with explosives.  You would try and find a red herring in a a packet of crisps my girl.

Who’s really operating on faith here?

You are Natalie, in case you forgot.

You are operating entirely upon faith.  A faith so extreme you cannot even face your own profound errors, you skip nimbly past a string of contradictions and keep claiming your fairy tale is impregnable.. 

Your fairy tale has yet to gather a shred of convincing evidence, how much more hopeless can a case be?

Its a faith based fairy tale Batgirl, and it isn’t convincing anyone in case you have not noticed.  Notice how people keep coming along and mentioning how they have realised the truth, or have learnt important new truth about 9/11 on this thead?  Poor Natalie has still only got a church of one (Excluding the Corpse, of course), despite lots of faith. Come on people, Natalie has enough faith for you all, why doesn’t someone join Natalie’s church of the Magic Arabs?  You just have to shut your eyes and think happy thoughts and then up up and away, you’ll be right beside Natalie in Never Never Land.

A Bat tattoed on your ass Natalie? Tell your rabbit, would it be a large Bat or a small Bat?  How much canvas are we talking about here? You have so many metaphorical bruises on that ass my dear that I would have thought tatoos would be out of the question anyway.  You should choose something more appropriate if you do, like a Deaths Head Skull with a Radiation warning over it..

Why do you even try to twist Wiley’s words to be some sort of neutrality or support for you even?  You know the Witch is ours, and she loves you the same way we all do.  Which is not at all.

Now looking at your attempts to debunk the living Hijackers story.

Natalie, neither the first link nor the second are credited in such a way that they discredit the BBC report or the several other independent reports in other media which showed some of the hijackers to be alive.

You have failed to debunk this story, I can tell you outright.  You are even coming off as a nut for still trying to do so.  Compare the massively referenced articles the rabbit links to, with the mostly spurious rants without corroborating verification of anything, which Natalie relies on.

The sources for this belief include a number of western and Middle East media, and even the US military and FBI reports signify acceptance of or knowledge of the living condition of some of the accused.

Now that site seems to be vastly more referenced and relevant to the surviving alleged Hijackers story than anything you are peddling, Batgirl.

I do hope you are not still taking that story about nineteen arabs armed with boxcutters and an acme learn to fly manual, as anything more than a myth now Natalie?

Here’s a link to a page that has photos, quotes, and video links to major military and intelligence experts, and other respected people now voicing concern of possible U.S. government involvement in 9/11.

http://www.v911t.org/911MythWebsite.php

You just scroll down to the expert of your choice, click on the picture or the box, and it takes you right to the video. Enjoy!

Uh, Nat, you might want to check it out also, just to see the sort of folks you’ve been trying so unsuccessfully to disparage.

“The theorising about the hijackings is an entirely independent matter, from the collapses of the buildings, that my dear is simple logic”

If these two aspects are so independent, why then is the theory that there were no hijackers so often invoked in conjunction with arguing for the presence of bombs in the buildings?  Why is it that virtually all the truthies regularly knit stories of a well planned conspiracy, from the misinterpreted statements of the PNAC to the mythical stand-down to the invasion of Iraq, in order to advance the fantasy about bombs?

Could it be, perhaps, because it’s so laughably silly to imagine that our government actually conspired with the likes of Atta and Hanjor to fly their planes according to our instructions, and thereby the tempation is to simply deny the very existance of the hijackers?

No, there is a definite and undeniable connection here.

I didn’t bring up the supposed nonexistance of the hijackers.  You did, and Marky did, in an effort to support bombs in the buildings:

Great picture, Wileywitch. Obviously, buildings which are more sturdily constructed with the specific intention that they would be able to withstand plane crashes, like the WTC towers, are less apt to remain standing than buildings, like that Amsterdam apartment complex, that are not. But only in Nat�s fantasy land.

As for blaming 9/11 on Islamic extremists, the FBI has disbanded the unit investigating Osama bin Laden because they found no evidence connecting him to 9/11. So it wasn�t Al Queda. As for the supposed 19 hijackers, several of them are still alive...

----------------

“How exactly the planes came to do what they did, is not part of the interlocking chain of evidence which proves quite convincingly that the buildings were brought down with explosives.”

LIke I said......it doesn’t matter......does it?

Nice one MyMarkx

You do realise Natalie cannot take any of these people seriously, they are all obviously Bush haters. 

By the way wasn’t it interesting to note the craven attempts to use Doug’s age against him when the Batgirl believed he is fourteen?  Says a lot about our Bat that does. 

If one is crippled by Depleted Uranium poisoning by Nat’s reasoning that makes your testimony invalid because you would thus be biased. 

If one is not a Physicist then you cannot understand gravity is another of her conditions and of course if you are accusing the Bush administration of complicity in 911, then your opinion as a physicist is of no relevance, you are a Bush hater.

Natalie’s rules for acceptance of testimony.

1) Anybody who is a Bush hater has an interest in lying and cannot be believed.

2) Only officially qualified people can understand anything, for example, if you are not a plumber you cannot be expected to understand why the sink is blocked.

3) Anybody who questions the official story is a Bush hater.  (see rule 1.)

4) Anybody who agrees with the official story is automatically qualified and trustworthy and anybody who agrees with any part of the official story is qualified to comment to that extent only, but anything else they say which doesn’t agree with the official story just shows they aren’t perfect.

Why do you even try to twist Wiley�s words to be some sort of neutrality or support for you even?  You know the Witch is ours.....

I really didn’t mean to say that I thought wiley was in any way aligned with the opinion of every relevant expert in the world, or me.  You so easlily misinterpret things. 

But then again, and perhaps I’ve forgotten or missed it, what exactly is wiley’s position on bombs in the buildings, and whether or not people on the current FBI’s list are still alive?

wiley?  Cards on the table?

Natalie

You are clearly not reading anything, your response times show you are not reading, not looking at a thing.  Thanks for showing us you are a deceiver again.  Ho hum..

Batgirl babbles:

If these two aspects are so independent, why then is the theory that there were no hijackers so often invoked in conjunction with arguing for the presence of bombs in the buildings? 

They are independent by virtue of logical progression, you dumbass.  Nothing about the demolitions of the buildings relies in any way shape or form upon who piloted the planes you feeble minded ninny.  What part of that do you not understand?

No argument exists for removing the hijackers from the planes in conjunction wityh the explosive demolition contention.  None at all you f**king moron! That is just how things get jumbled up in your puny little mind!  We can clearly see from the execrable logic and total lack of reason why you would get these things so muddled up, but you need to understand it isn’t the world that is muddled, its you.  This thread is the best proof we have gathered yet that you are inacapable of what is called reason by sentient creatures.  You are braindead, or if you are a shill, then I guess you just haven’t got a chance in hell.  You are left defending the walls, which long since fell down, and rotted away. As for why you hear both things often in the same contexts obviously the people concerned believe, or are merely interested in both apsects. 

Could it be, perhaps, because it’s so laughably silly to imagine that our government actually conspired with the likes of Atta and Hanjor to fly their planes according to our instructions, and thereby the tempation is to simply deny the very existance of the hijackers?

No Natalie, it could not be.  Everybody who can still think for themselves and who actually read what is presented finds the suggestion the government, especially THIS ONE would baulk at doing something like this to be laughable.  We are not denying the existence of the hijackers you poor slow dull witted girl, merely their actual roles, their identities and many of the events surrounding their story.  It all comes down to us only having to disprove the official story which we have done on all fronts, talk about overkill.  Obviously if its the truth there is no limit to the growth factor, which is why he information and the supporters just keeps on consistently speaking to the same truth.

Even a good lie, should be able to muster a bit more evidence for itself than this load of codswallop the Junta has fed the world. This is just a bad lie.  A poorly concieved and poorly executed BIG LIE, Hitlers Reichstag at least has managed to retain an ounce more credibility for it being the Communists sixty years on, but don’t count on the 9/11 fairy tale standing as long.  The fable was stillborn as far as most of the world was concerned, and it is dead in the water even in the delusional paradise of the USA, as evidenced by the growing support for a new investigation, and ZERO growth of its (The Fairy Tale’s) supporter base.

Now Natalie, everone know the rabbit isn’t the one who misinterprets things. You know what you were doing, and I called you on it.  You were making a shilly little effort to neutralise Wiley’s stance.  Maybe you just didn’t know you were doing it.  You probably tell lies in your sleep Natsky.

http://uslaboragainstwar.org/article.php?id=10929

GATHERING TO DEMAND THE TRUTH ABOUT 911

by Mike Ferner
June 10th, 2006

Over 500 people in the packed hall applauded eagerly when Dr. Bob Bowman stated he was an advocate of doctor-controlled, single-payer health care for all.

They cheered louder still when the congressional candidate from Florida’s 15th District pledged that his first piece of legislation submitted in the House of Representatives would be articles of impeachment. 

But they simultaneously jumped to their feet and roared approval when he leaned over the podium to say he was running with a group of Democrats, Republicans, Greens, Libertarians, Independents and non politicians “…who are all united by one thing.  We want to bring our troops home from George Bush’s quagmire in Iraq and expose the lies that allowed him to send them there, including 9/11.”

Batgirl lies:

Like I said......it doesn’t matter......does it

That was you taking things out of context, another deceitful shill trick.

It doesn’t matter relevant to the Explosive demolitions.

Sorry for the space people but I think you’ll all forgive the rabbit this indulgence, we need to look at the Nat’s story since she doesn’t seem able to string it together coherantly herself..

Looniest Of All 911
Conspiracy Theories

By Gerard Holmgren
1-31-6

Astute observers of history are aware that for every notable event there will usually be at least one, often several wild conspiracy theories which spring up around it. ‘The CIA killed Hendrix’, ‘The Pope had John Lennon murdered’, ‘Hitler was half Werewolf’, ‘Space aliens replaced Nixon with a clone’ etc, etc. The bigger the event, the more ridiculous and more numerous are the fanciful rantings which circulate in relation to it.
So its hardly surprising that the events of September 11th, 2001 have spawned their fair share of these ludicrous fairy tales. And as always, there is - sadly - a small but gullible percentage of the population eager to lap up these tall tales, regardless of facts or rational analysis.

One of the wilder stories circulating about September 11th - and one that has attracted something of a cult following amongst conspiracy buffs - is that it was carried out by nineteen fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they ‘hate our freedoms.’

Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the internet and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell.

Normally I don’t even bother debunking this kind of junk, but the effect that this paranoid myth is beginning to have requires a little rational analysis, in order to consign it to the same rubbish bin as all such silly conspiracy theories.

These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organising them, and actually would have stopped them if it had been able. Blindly ignoring the stand down of the US air-force, the insider trading on airline stocks - linked to the CIA - the complicit behavior of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the attacks, the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about nineteen Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer four planes simultaneously and fly them around US airspace for nearly two hours, crashing them into important buildings, without the US intelligence services having any idea that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do.

The huge difficulties with such a stupid story force them to invent even more preposterous stories to distract from its core silliness, and thus the tale has escalated into a mythic fantasy of truly gargantuan proportions.

It’s difficult to apply rational analysis to such unmitigated stupidity, but that is the task which I take on in this article. However, it should be noted that one of the curious characteristics of conspiracy theorists is that they effortlessly change their so called evidence in response to each aspect which is debunked. As soon as one delusion is unmasked, they simply invent another to replace it, and deny that the first ever existed. Eventually, when they have turned full circle through this endlessly changing fantasy fog, they then re-invent the original delusion and deny that you ever debunked it, thus beginning the circle once more. This technique is known as ‘the fruit loop’ and saves the conspiracy theorist from ever having to see any of their ideas through to their (il)ogical conclusions.

According to the practitioners of the fruit loop, nineteen Arabs took over four planes by subduing the passengers and crew through the use of guns, knives, box cutters and gas, and then used electronic guidance systems which they had smuggled on board to fly the planes to their targets.

The suspension of disbelief required for this outrageous concoction is only for the hard core conspiracy theorist. For a start, they conveniently skip over the awkward fact that there weren’t any Arabs on the planes. If there were, one must speculate that they somehow got on board without being filmed by any of the security cameras and without being registered on the passenger lists. But the curly question of how they are supposed to have got on board is all too mundane for the exciting world of the conspiracy theorist. With vague mumblings that they must have been using false ID - but never specifying which IDs they are alleged to have used, or how these were traced to their real identities - they quickly bypass this problem, to relate exciting and sinister tales about how some of the fictitious fiends were actually searched before boarding because they looked suspicious. However, as inevitably happens with any web of lies, this simply paints them into an even more difficult corner. How are they supposed to have got on board with all that stuff if they were searched ? And if they used gas in a confined space, they would have been affected themselves unless they also had masks in their luggage.

“Excuse me sir, why do you have a boxcutter, a gun, a container of gas, a gas mask and an electronic guidance unit in your luggage?”

“A present for your grandmother? Very well sir, on you get.”

“Very strange”, thinks the security officer, “that’s the fourth Arabic man without an Arabic name who just got on board with a knife, gun or boxcutter and gas mask...and why does that security camera keep flicking off every time one these characters shows up? Must be one of those days I guess...”

Asking any of these basic questions to a conspiracy theorist is likely to cause a sudden leap to the claim that we know that they were on board because they left a credit card trail for the tickets they had purchased and cars they had rented. So if they used credit cards that identified them, how does that reconcile with the claim that they used false IDs to get on to the plane? But by this time , the fruit loop is in full swing, as the conspiracy theorist tries to stay one jump ahead of this annoying and awkward rational analysis. They will allege that the hijackers’ passports were found at the crash scenes. “So there!” they exalt triumphantly, their fanatical faces lighting up with that deranged look of one who has just a revelation of questionable sanity.

Hmm? So they got on board with false IDs but took their real passports with them? However, by this time the fruit loop has been completely circumnavigated,and the conspiracy theorist exclaims impatiently, “who said anything about false IDs? We know what seats they were sitting in! Their presence is well documented!” And so the whole loop starts again. “Well, why aren’t they on the passenger lists?” “You numbskull! They assumed the identities of other passengers!” And so on…

Finally, out of sheer fascination with this circular method of creative delusion, the rational sceptic will allow them to get away with this loop, in order to move on to the next question, and see what further delights await us in the unraveling of this marvelously stupid story.

“Uh, how come their passports survived fiery crashes that completely incinerated the planes and all the passengers? “The answer of course is that its just one of those strange coincidences, those little quirks of fate that do happen from time to time. You know, like the same person winning the lottery four weeks in a row. The odds are astronomical, but these things do happen.

This is another favourite deductive method of the conspiracy theorist. The ‘improbability drive’, in which they decide upon a conclusion without any evidence whatsoever to support it, and then continually speculate a series of wildly improbable events and unbelievable co-incidences to support it, shrugging off the implausibility of each event with the vague assertion that sometimes the impossible happens - just about all the time in their world. There is a principle called ‘Occam’s razor’ which suggests that in the absence of evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct. Conspiracy theorists hate Occam’s razor.

Having for the sake of amusement, allowed them to get away with with the silly story of the nineteen invisible Arabs, we move on to the question of how they are supposed to have taken over the planes.

Hijacking a plane is not an easy thing to do. Hijacking it without the pilot being able to alert ground control is near impossible. The pilot has only to punch in a four digit code to alert ground control to a hijacking. Unconcerned with the awkward question of plausibility, the conspiracy buffs maintain that on that September 11th, the invisible hijackers took over the plane by the rather crude method of threatening people with boxcutters and knives, and spraying gas - after they had attached their masks, obviously - but somehow took control of the plane without the crew first getting a chance to punch in the hijacking code. Not just on one plane, but on all four. At this point in the tale, the conspiracy theorist is again forced to call upon the services of the improbability drive.

So now that our incredibly lucky hijackers have taken control of the planes, all four pilots fly them with breath taking skill and certainty to their fiery end, all four pilots unflinching in their steely resolve for a swift meeting with Allah. Apart from their psychotic hatred of ‘our freedoms’, it was their fanatical devotion to Islam which enabled them to summon up the iron will to do this. Which is strange, because according to another piece of hearsay peddled by the conspiracy buffs, these guys actually went out drinking and womanizing the night before their great martyrdom, even leaving their Korans in the bar - really impeccable Islamic behavior - and then got up at 5 o’clock the next morning to pull off the greatest covert operation in history. This also requires us to believe that they were even clear headed enough to learn how to fly the huge planes by reading flight manuals in Arabic in the car on the way to the airport. We know this because they supposedly left the flight manuals there for us to find.

It gets better. Their practical training had allegedly been limited to Cessnas and flight simulators, but this was no barrier to the unflinching certainty with which they took over the planes and skillfully guided them to their doom. If they are supposed to have done their flight training with these tools, which would be available just about anywhere in the world, its not clear why they would have decided to risk blowing their cover to US intelligence services by doing the training in Florida, rather than somewhere in the Middle East, but such reasoning is foreign to the foggy world of the conspiracy theorist, too trapped in the constant rotation of the mental fruit loop to make their unsubstantiated fabrications seem even semi-believable.

Having triumphantly established a circular delusion in support of the mythical Arabs, the conspiracy theorist now confronts the difficult question of why there’s nothing left of the planes. Anybody who has seen the endlessly replayed footage of the second plane going into the WTC will realize that the plane was packed with explosives. Planes do not and cannot blow up into nothing in that manner when they crash.

Did the mythical Arabs also haul a huge heap of explosives on board, and mange to deploy them in such a manner that they went off in the exact instant of the crash, completely vapourizing the plane? This is a little difficult even for the conspiracy theorist, who at this point decides that its easier to invent new laws of physics in order to keep the delusion rolling along.

There weren’t any explosives. It wasn’t an inside job. The plane blew up into nothing from its exploding fuel load! Remarkable, quite remarkable. Sluggishly combustible jet fuel which is basically Kerosene, and which burns at a maximum temperature of around 800 degrees Celcius has suddenly taken on the qualities of a ferociously explosive demolition agent, vapourising sixty-five tons of aircraft into a puff of smoke. Never mind that a plane of that size contains around fifteen tons of steel and titanium, of which even the melting points are about double that of the maximum combustion temperature of Kerosene - let alone the boiling point - which is what would be required to vapourise a plane. And then there’s about fifty tons of aluminium to be accounted for. In excess of 15lbs of metal for each gallon of Kerosene.

For the conspiracy theorist, such inconvenient facts are vaguely dismissed as ‘mumbo jumbo’. This convenient little phrase is their answer to just about anything factual or logical. Like a conjurer pulling a rabbit out of a hat, they suddenly become fanatically insistent about the devastating explosive qualities of Kerosene, something hitherto completely unknown to science, but just discovered by them, this very minute. Blissfully ignoring the fact that never before or since in aviation history has a plane vapourised into nothing from an exploding fuel load, the conspiracy theorist relies upon Hollywood images, where the effects are are always larger than life, and certainly larger than the intellects of these cretins.

“Its a well known fact that planes blow up into nothing on impact”, they state with pompous certainty, “watch any Bruce Willis movie.”

“Care to provide any documented examples? If it’s a well known fact, then presumably this well known fact springs from some kind of documentation - other than Bruce Willis movies?”

At this point the mad but cunning eyes of the conspiracy theorist will narrow as they sense the corner that they have backed themselves into, and plan their escape by means of another stunning backflip.

“Ah, but planes have never crashed into buildings before, so there’s no way of telling.” they counter with a sly grin. Well, actually planes have crashed into buildings before and since, and not vapourised into nothing. “But not big planes, with that much fuel”, they shriek in hysterical denial. Or that much metal to vapourise.

“Yes but not hijacked planes!” “Are you suggesting that whether the crash is deliberate or accidental affects the combustion qualities of the fuel?” “Now you’re just being silly”.

Although collisions with buildings are rare, planes frequently crash into mountains, streets, other aircraft, nosedive into the ground, or have bombs planted aboard them, and don’t vapourise into nothing. What’s so special about a tower that’s mostly glass? But by now, the conspiracy theorist has once again sailed happily around the fruit loop. “It’s a well documented fact that planes explode into nothing on impact.”

Effortlessly weaving back and forth between the position that its a “well known fact” and that “its never happened before, so we have nothing to compare it to”, the conspiracy theorist has now convinced themselves - if not too many other people - that the WTC plane was not loaded with explosives, and that the instant vapourisation of the plane in a massive fireball was the same as any other plane crash you might care to mention. Round and round the fruit loop.

But the hurdles which confront the conspiracy theorist are many, and they are now forced to implement even more creative uses for the newly discovered shockingly destructive qualities of Kerosene. They have to explain how the Arabs also engineered the elegant veritcal collapse of both the WTC towers, and for this awkward fact the easiest counter is to simply deny that it was a controlled demolition, and claim that the buildings collapsed from fire caused by the burning Kerosene.

For this, its necessary to sweep aside the second law of thermodynamics and propose Kerosene which is not only impossibly destructive, but also recycles itself for a second burning in violation of the law of degradation of energy. You see, it not only consumed itself in a sudden catastrophic fireball , vapourising a sixty-five ton plane into nothing, but then came back for a second go, burning at 2000 degrees centigrade for another hour at the impact point, melting the skyscraper’s steel like butter. And while it was doing all this it also poured down the elevator shafts, starting fires all through the building. When I was at school there was a little thing called the entropy law which suggests that a given portion of fuel can only burn once, something which is readily observable in the real world, even for those who didn’t make it to junior high school science. But this is no problem for the conspiracy theorist. Gleefully, they claim that a few thousand gallons of Kerosene is enough to:

- Completely vapourise a sixty-five ton aircraft

- Have enough left over to burn ferociously enough for over an hour at the impact point to melt steel - melting point about double the maximum combustion temperature of the fuel

- Still have enough left over to pour down the elevator shafts and start similarly destructive fires all through the building

This Kerosene really is remarkable stuff! How chilling to realize that those Kerosene heaters we had in the house when I was a kid were deadly bombs, just waiting to go off. One false move and the entire street might have been vapourised. And never again will I take Kerosene lamps out camping. One moment you’re there innocently holding the lamp - the next - kapow! Vapourised into nothing along with with the rest of the camp site, and still leaving enough of the deadly stuff to start a massive forest fire.

These whackos are actually claiming that the raging inferno allegedly created by the miraculously recycling, and impossibly hot burning Kerosene melted or at least softened the steel supports of the skyscraper. Oblivious to the fact that the black smoke coming from the WTC indicates an oxygen starved fire - therefore not particularly hot - they trumpet an alleged temperature in the building of 2000 degrees centigrade, without a shred of evidence to support this curious suspension of the laws of physics.

Not content with this ludicrous garbage, they then contend that as the steel frames softened, they came straight down instead of buckling and twisting and falling sideways.

Since they’re already re-engineered the combustion qualities of jet fuel, violated the second law of thermodynamics, and redefined the structural properties of steel, why let a little thing like the laws of gravity get in the way?

The tower fell in a time almost identical to that of a free falling object, dropped from that height, meaning that its physically impossible for it to have collapsed by the method of the top floors smashing through the lower floors. But according to the conspiracy theorists, the laws of gravity were temporarily suspended on the morning of September 11th. It appears that the evil psychic power of those dreadful Arabs knew no bounds. Even after they were dead, they were able, by the power of their evil spirits, to force down the tower at a speed physically impossible under the laws of gravity, had it been meeting any resistance from fireproofed steel structures originally designed to resist many tons of hurricane force wind as well as the impact of a Boeing passenger jet straying off course.

Clearly, these conspiracy nuts never did their science homework at school, but did become extremely adept at inventing tall tales for why. “Muslim terrorists stole my notes,Sir.” “No Miss, the Kerosene heater blew up and vapourised everything in the street, except for my passport.” “You see Sir, the schoolbus was hijacked by Arabs who destroyed my homework because they hate our freedoms.”

Or perhaps they misunderstood the term ‘creative science’ and mistakenly thought that coming up with such rubbish was in fact, their science homework.

The ferocious heat generated by this ghastly Kerosene was, according to the conspiracy theorists, the reason why so many of the WTC victims can’t be identified. DNA is destroyed by heat - although 2000 degrees centigrade isn’t really required, 100 degrees centigrade will generally do the job. This is quite remarkable, because according to the conspiracy theorist, the nature of DNA suddenly changes if you go to a different city.

That’s right, if you are killed by an Arab terrorist in New York, your DNA will be destroyed by such temperatures. But if you are killed by an Arab terrorist in Washington, your DNA will be so robust that it can survive temperatures which completely vapourise a sixty-five ton aircraft.

You see, these loonies have somehow concocted the idea that the missile which hit the pentagon was not a missile at all, but one of the hijacked planes. And to prove this unlikely premise, they point to a propaganda statement from the Bush regime, which rather stupidly claims that all but one of the people aboard the plane were identified from the site by DNA testing, even though nothing remains of the plane. The plane was vapourised by the fuel tank explosion, maintain these space loonies, but the people inside it were all but one identified by DNA testing.

So there we have it. The qualities of DNA are different, depending upon which city you’re in, or perhaps depending upon which fairy story you’re trying to sell at any particular time.

This concoction about one of the hijacked planes hitting the Pentagon really is a howler. For those not familiar with the layout of the Pentagon, it consists of 5 rings of building, each with a space inbetween. Each ring of building is about 30-35 feet deep, with a similar amount of open space between it and the next ring. The object which penetrated the Pentagon went in at about a 45 degree angle, punching a neat circular hole of about a 12 foot diameter through three rings - six walls. A little later a section of wall about 65 foot wide collapsed in the outer ring. Since the plane which the conspiracy theorists claim to be responsible for the impact had a wing span of 125 feet and a length of 155 feet, and there was no wreckage of the plane, either inside or outside the building, and the lawns outside were still smooth and green enough to play golf on, this crazy delusion is clearly physically impossible.

But hey, we’ve already disregarded the combustion qualities of jet fuel, the normal properties of common building materials, the properties of DNA, the laws of gravity and the second law of thermodynamics, so what the hell - why not throw in a little spatial impossibility as well? I would have thought that the observation that a solid object cannot pass through another solid object without leaving a hole at least as big as itself is reasonably sound science. But to the conspiracy theorist, this is ‘mumbo jumbo’. It conflicts with the delusion that they’re hooked on, so it ‘must be wrong’ although trying to get them to explain exactly how it could be wrong is a futile endeavour.

Conspiracy theorists fly into a curious panic whenever the Pentagon missile is mentioned. They nervously maintain that the plane was vapourised by it’s exploding fuel load, and point to the WTC crash as evidence of this behavior. That’s a wonderful fruit loop. Like an insect which has just been sprayed, running back and forth in its last mad death throes, they first argue that the reason the hole is so small is that the plane never entered the wall, having blown up outside, and then suddenly backflip to explain the 250 foot deep missile hole by saying that the plane disappeared all the way into the building, and then blew up inside the building - even though the building shows no sign of such damage. As for what happened to the wings - here’s where they get really creative. The wings snapped off and folded into the fuselage which then carried them into the building, which then closed up behind the plane like a piece of meat.

When it suits them, they’ll also claim that the plane slid in on its belly - ignoring the undamaged lawn - while at the same time citing alleged witnesses to the plane diving steeply into the building from an ‘irrecoverable angle.’ How they reconcile these two scenarios as being compatible is truly a study in stupidity.

Once they get desperate enough, you can be sure that the UFO conspiracy stuff will make an appearance. The Arabs are in league with the Martians. Space aliens snatched the remains of the Pentagon plane and fixed most of the hole in the wall, just to confuse people. They gave the Arabs invisibility pills to help get them onto the planes. Little green men were seen talking to Bin Laden a few weeks prior to the attacks.

As America gears up to impeach the traitor Bush, and stop his perpetual oil war, it’s not helpful to have these idiots distracting from the process by spreading silly conspiracy theories about mythical Arabs, stories which do nothing but play into the hands of the extremist Bush regime.

At a less serious time, we might tolerate such crackpots with amused detachment, but they need to understand that the treachery that was perpetrated on September 11th, and the subsequent war crimes committed in ‘retaliation’ are far too serious for us to allow such frivolous self indulgence to go unchallenged.

Those who are truly addicted to conspiracy delusions should find a more appropriate outlet for their paranoia.

Its time to stop loony conspiracy theories about September 11th.

It’s uncanny! It’s like he knows you personally Natalie.

Peter Meyer (he’s the LDS....er.....LSD guy)
Re: No commercial airliners in 9/11 incidents
Interview w/ Gerard Holmgren

You appear to have a clear-cut picture, and are prepared to debate your opinion, so it is very kind of you to provide answers to some simple questions.....

Exactly what it is, is difficult to tell but it appears to be some kind of highly advanced secret technology....... (audience gasps)

OMFG people.  What’s next?  Space aliens caused the collapses with plasma cannons?

It’s really not that far a leap from here.  Honestly, I could get more reliable information waiting to pay for my groceries.

I didn’t want to believe it, but they were RIGHT about Nick and Jessica.  I’m so dissapointed in you two, but that’s another story.

How could I have been so blind?  He’s in love.....with a MACHINE

Did something flap past?

9/11 was an inside job, with many false and vicious things happening that day. Here we have a Retired General stating a plane did not hit the pentagon.

Yes its via ALEX JONES, just to annoy the bat. Rabbit can hear her screeching in fury already. 

Does anyone know why Batgirl is linking to pages like the last one she did, which is directly supportive of the substitution of planes among other things?  Space aliens with plasma cannons is an odd title to give a link which has no such things too.  Odd Bat is aiming carefully at its own foot again.

Would someone tell Batgirl for the rabbit, that debating any presumptions from the Gerald Holmgren article is pointless, it is given for its satirical value.  You might also tell her the rabbit is responding selectively to her babblings as it pleases him now.  A right he feels he has earned through tireless deflation of her all hat no horse fairy story.  Selective responses are something she has of course always presumed to be her right, which was a presumption not based upon reality, as we know.  Rabbits as well as Bats should be expected to show integrity if we are to be taken seriously, but the Batgirl has sacrificed her integrity to such a degree that no rabbit would feel obligated to respond to anything but the funniest of her rantings and self shots.  Then only for his own personal amusement, and as the urge struck him.

Rabbit looks, with stampy foot, and angry eyes, at the dishonourable bat.

You are doing the fruit loop with the improbability drive on full revs.  Stop it, you are making yourself dizzy, and going nowhere at all but with a lot of smoke and noise.

The beastly Bat swoops past our eyes.
Drops like a loose brick from the darkening skies.
There on the place where reason weeps.
It covers the truth with its horny feet.

Spinning a tangled web of dissembling lines.
Neo-con-man crimes, covered up with lies.
Metaphoric fangs are spreading poisons.
Personal insults and ugly aspersions.

Deriding on impulse and never replying.
To anything sending her fairy tale flying.
While the rest of us usually base ours on facts.
Faith is all that supports the story of Bats..

........................^^...........................

This is such a vast subject that I’ll limit myself to a small slice in order to get some feedback from you all. I’ve seen a number of 9/11 Truth related videos now and every one of them has the Silvrstein snippet where he says Building #7 was “Pulled”.

1. Why, despite silverstein’s comment, do some 9-11 Truthers talk about the impossibility of THREE buildings collapseing into their own foot prints? Isn’t it obvious to everyone that, accrding to the guy who leased the building, that this building was in fact professionally demoed? this would us with leave TWO miracle collapses.

2. Where is the whole interview of Silverstein? I think we’d all like to see it as perhaps he reveals some more interesting facts--like:

a. who was the company that did the job?
b. was it hard to demo a burning building during all the chaos of that day in, what would seem to me, record time?
c. was there police/goverment co-ordination involved to keep people away from the buildings demolition on that day? A feat in itself it seams!
d. were demo permits and all the other red tape shoved aside?

These questions might seem off base but frankly, I’d like to hear from the guys that pulled that building; i’d like to see one news article on it. it seems bizzare that none exist--or do they? i guess if you’re myth-making you don’t want a bunch of details there to confuse the issue. But I think 9-11 truthers also need to constintly dig for more to keep their theorys from becoming stale myths that nobodies going to care about ten years from now either, like JFK, OK City, Pearl Harbor, etc, etc.

thanks in advance for any feedback

What you’re again saying Rabbit, using way more words than are necessary, is that it doesn’t matter that Gerard Holmgren is a certifiable nut.  (or perhaps, crazy like a fox, and just out to make some extra cash for a retirement motor home)

You make a false assumption about his “satire” piece, because although he writes it from an info-tainment “turn the tables” perspective, he is conveying non-the-less what he appears to actually believe.  He actually believes that there were no hijackers.  Or he actually believes that the planes were not the designated commercial airlilners we all saw that day, but substitutes with huge explosives on board.  Or whatever it takes to deny the obvious.  It doesn’t really matter.

So what do you do next?  You call another certifiable nut as an expert witness.

Major General Albert Stubblebine: A key sponsor of the research internally at Fort Meade, he was convinced of the reality of a wide variety of psychic phenomena, leading him to even attempt to walk through walls.

Art Bell, call your office!

“Relatives of the September 11 victims received some encouraging news this week with respect to the identification of victims. Early in the week officials made the first positive identification of a passenger from one of the two flights that struck the Twin Towers. They used DNA testing to confirm the identity of the passenger. The medical examiner’s office announced that the DNA testing to identify the victims should be completed approximately eight months after the cleanup is finished, or early next year.”

“The 1,401 people identified include 45 of those aboard the hijacked planes - 33 from Flight 11, which struck the north tower, and 12 from Flight 175, which hit the south tower.”

“A hand found in the rubble at ground zero was matched through DNA testing to Trentini, a 65-year-old retired schoolteacher from Everett, Mass., it was reported. Trentini and his wife, Mary, 67, were flying to Los Angeles Sept. 11 on Flight 11 to visit their grandchildren. It is the first time DNA has been able to verify the identity of any victims aboard the two planes that were flown into the World Trade Center, according to the report. The fingerprints matched Trentini’s, and his college ring, believed to be his Wofford ring, was still on his finger, Trentini’s sister, Patricia Malatesta, said. The Trentinis were to leave on Sept. 10 but changed their plans because James had jury duty. His wife has not been found.”

howler, read this page for a perspective you’ve probably not encountered on all the “truthie” sites you’ve visited.

Ask yourself:  Why haven’t I heard this perspective if the “truthie” sites are simply searching so diligently for the truth, as their names so often imply?

And why are so many of the quotes I read on those sites consistently taken out of context, as I can plainly see now after reading them in full?

Would this be consistent with searching for the full truth?

Natalie�s rules for acceptance of testimony.
1) Anybody who is a Bush hater has an interest in lying and cannot be believed.

Not so.  In fact, most of the growing number of 9/11 truth de-bunking sites are done by people who are not fans of Bush.

Now, if you can point me to someone who is a fan of Bush, who likes him and approves of his foreign policy, and also supports bombs in the buildings and missiles in Pentagons, then you might have half a leg to stand on here.

In fact, the site linked to in my previous post is run by someone who is also not a fan of Bush.

Again, for illustration:

Chris Bollyn, who’s “journalism” is often published by AFP and Rense, manufactured this:

No evidence has been produced to support the theory that the burning jet fuel and secondary fires “attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses,” Manning wrote, adding that the collapses occurred “in an alarmingly short time.”

From the original:

“However, respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers. Rather, theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses in an alarmingly short time. Of course, in light of there being no real evidence thus far produced, this could remain just unexplored theory.

Reminder:  Manning’s editorial was only written in Dec., 2001.  No detailed investigation had even begun.  He was concerned by an apparent lack of concern for preserving steel for evidence, because he rightly suspected lack of fireproofing, but in no way expressed any support for, or even awareness of the CD theory.  A year later, his writings still didn’t indicate any support for, or awareness of the CD theory.  Strange that something so obvious to website designers, theologians and fourteen year olds escaped his expert eye.

mymarkx,

I was checking out your collection of supposed experts on the events of 9/11.  Notably absent were the professions of structural, civil, and fire engineering.  I saw nobody represented that was actually at the pentagon crash site, or any of the dozens of people that saw an American Airlines jet pass overhead and crash into the pentagon.  There was nobody there to represent the forensic teams that found DNA from passengers and some of the hijackers in the wreckage at the wtc, the Pentagon, and that Penn. field.

Why not?

I was interested in what Daniel Ellsberg had to say, because I was under the impression that he was somewhat honest, although misguided.  It would appear that Alex Jones attempted to badly misrepresent his feelings about 9/11.

Before he got a call from Ellsberg, I’m guessing:

Pentagon Papers Author Daniel Ellsberg Says Government May Have Carried Out 9/11

After the call:

Correction:
The original headlines for the interview with Daniel Ellsberg posted on July 19, 2006, and parts of the story, incorrectly paraphrased the accompanying transcript (which is accurate) and inadvertently misrepresented his views. He did not, and does not, predict that the “Bush regime will stage terrorist attack to provide pretext for Iran, Syria invasion,” nor that “within days after a US military strike on Iran. Bush’s handlers would probably stage some type of terror attack in the West to legitimize the new war.” Nor does he believe that the government “may have carried out 9/11” except in the limited sense that elements in the government have, in his opinion, the “psychological capability” to do so, as others, in his own experience, have had in the past.

Typical.

You find the scientists and structural engineers at the scientists and scholars for 9/11 truth sites. The video of the first mainstream media cameraman on the scene at the Pentagon is linked above. None of those forensic teams said there were any Arabs aboard the planes, and one specifically stated that there were none. And while some people may have thought they saw a commercial plane crash into the Pentagon, those with more knowledge and experience say it was not. Heck, even Cheney said it was a missile. Then he corrected himself—with so many lies to remember anyone can slip up now and then. When the plane was ten miles out he said the orders still stood. What orders, Nat? If they had been orders to shoot it down, the most well-defended property in the world would have shot it down. Only orders not to shoot it down could have permitted a hit on the Pentagon.

Rabbit’s right, Nat just doesn’t pay attention. Too busy thinking up more disinfo, I guess.

OK Marky,

1) State the name of a certified structural engineer who is a member of “scholars” for 9/11 truth.  Link me to him and verification of his credentials.

2) Whatever some cameraman happened to be able to shoot, I was talking about some of the first responders....firefighters, rescue personnel, etc.  Why no interviews or quotes from them?  Why nothing like this:

Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. “It was absolutely a plane, and I’ll tell you why,” says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. “I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box.” Kilsheimer’s eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: “I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?”

3) No, there were sets of remains identified for all (or at least most, I believe) of the extra people (we would assume the arab hijackers) at the pentagon and at Pennsylvania.  Nobody has come forward to provide DNA or dental records for confirmation of identities, but of course that is understandable.  Their son or relative was a mass murderer, and they are very well aware of it.  They have their son on video saying goodbye.  I can link you to those videos, if you are interested in anything but propaganda.

4) I have a list of dozens of people and their testimony as to seeing an airliner, and many identified it specifically as an American Airlines jet.  Do you have any quotes from anybody who claims they saw a missile?  Not sounded like one, or seemed like one, but was one.  There was a traffic jam near the Pentagon.  Dozens of people who saw the jet testified about it to reporters, and likely hundreds of people saw it but were never asked about it.

Cheney never said it was a missile, unless perhaps he obviously misspoke. 

I pay just fine attention, and I notice you are trying to pass off a bunch of laughable baloney here at In These Times.

Howler

Many of the things you are questioning exist and have been linked to already above.  No offence but most of your questions are redundant.  The 9/11 truthers are constantly adding new information as it comes forward and there is plenty of energy going into the search for whatever is available.  The Larry Silverstein speech is available in full, even the original footage of the interview, and there exists his effort to explain his comments away at a later date.  Obviously he fails to convince anyone, since as I point out, no new converts have ever joined the faith brigade, they are a dying religion.

You are also falling into the trap of expecting the 9/11 truth movement to have all the answers.  We don’t claim to, and are not obligated to. The government is the one claiming it has all the answers, we are merely proving they do not.  We do not need to have even a fraction of what we do have, to justify claiming the official story is bunkum. The faith based fairy tale isn’t supported by any of the evidence, that’s as simple as it gets dude.

The 9/11 truth movement is evolving obviously, but it is getting more of the answers all the time, and it never ceases to convince peopl, by the simple expedient of presenting the known facts.  We do not have to have all the answers.  We have more than enough, and the huge amount of evidence which is being witheld constitutes a concerted effort to stop the truth being known after all.  It isn’t as if people are working to get the truth in a world of openness and transparency after all. What is the point of the truth movement finding all the answers and presenting the argument anyway?  Only a proper investigation can make the difference, and that is all anyone is saying must be done.

It is patently clear to anyone at this stage that anyone who would deny a new investigation seeks only to hide the truth.  You can still believe the official fairy tale and yet feel there is so much doubt about things that aproper and independent investigation is needed.  That position would at least be tenable.  What is not tenable at this point is to deny a new investigation, one which this time did look at all the facts which have been ignored in the official reports so far, isn’t justified. 

Only a complete fool would buy the claim that things are all hunky dory and no serious doubts are arising.

It is telling that those few who still buy the official fairy tale, are also totally wrong about virtually every major fact of our times as well.

Natalie the four rules ARE your rules, and Rabbit can apply them to any argument you make.  One example is how you deny that Professor Steven Jones is qualified to speak the instant his study came out.  You immediately attacked his character, and questioned his motives, all without even once reading his report or indeed having ever known of the man before.  Chief among your maniacal atacks on Jones’ paper was that it wasn’t peer reviewed.  Then it got peer review, and you never mention this again. 

You post a report by Bazant however who is far lower in reputation than Jones from the start, you claim his report is actually so solid as to be proof in itself, a patently ridiculous claim as it turned out, and you refuse to even consider that his employment by the government is relevant, considering him to be automatically trustworthy compared to Jones who you automatically labelled a liar and incompetant. The fact that the Bazant paper, is not peer reviewed apparently is of no interest to you at all.  That is what honest people call double standards Nat.

AND of course you are applying rule number 4 and a variation of rule 3.

You are also doing the Improbability driven Fruit Loop as Holmgren describes it.

Natalie’s rules for acceptance of testimony.

4) Anybody who agrees with the official story is automatically qualified and trustworthy and anybody who agrees with any part of the official story is qualified to comment to that extent only, but anything else they say which doesn’t agree with the official story just shows they aren’t perfect.

I am not finding your babbling very funny anymore Batgirl, you bore me, so I’m ignoring most of your rubbish, not even reading it. This is unforgiveable in a debate with anyone, but I am no longer debating with you, others can waste their time if they wish, but my work is done I’d say, and basically, I own the argument.  Don’t believe me go and read the first six posts. Rabbit has long since done what he set out to do.

* Demolish the official fairy tale using verifiable facts and information.
* Demonstrate that the official fairy tale is based upon outright fabrication and nothing else but faith.
* Show by example just how craven and dishonest are those who actually defend the official fairy tale.

Thankyou for your help Batgirl, you have made the last two happen with only minimal help from the rabbit.

1) No way. Do your own googling.

2) You asked for somebody who “was actually at the Pentagon crash site.” You didn’t say that if he was a mainstream media reporter who also filmed what he saw it wouldn’t count.

Kilsheimer says he saw “the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building,” but since the hole is too small for the wings to have entered the building, why weren’t they on the lawn? In fact why was the Pentalawn (google that one also) so pristine if a plane had been flying that low over it.

3) You believe. That’s fine. You have a right to believe. In order to have credibility as a writer, of course, outside of strictly theological literature, you can’t just believe, you have to also think.

4) Of course Cheney misspoke. That’s what they always call it when he or Bush lies. As Bush joked when he was comparing himself to Schwarzenegger, some people think that neither of them can speak the language. But don’t misunderstimate his misspeaking prowess--he has misspoken more than any other political figure in history. Maybe Cheney also misspoke when, on the floor of Congress, he told Senator Leahy to go fuck himself. Maybe he misspoke when he said that the orders still stood. Maybe he makes mistakes a lot. Maybe if he hadn’t been the sole person in charge, this wouldn’t have happened. You can really make an excellent case for negligence, except that when people are excessively evil and greedy, the public tends to credit them with deliberate intent.

Instead of mobilizing the nation when we were attacked, the President sat listening to “My Pet Goat.” Instead of coordinating air defenses, the Vice-President just sat there and said that his orders still stood. Sad to say, but even you, Natalie, could have done better than that, so it really looks pathetic when you defend them.

Umm, Natalie you may have people who reportedly identified the jet which hit the Pentagon, but that doesn’t mean they were correct.  Here is one of your supposed witnesses and it seems he was misquoted.

You claim you have witnesses, but we cannot believe that you have any witnesses until you present them Nat.  As it happens being a resourceful rabbit and not given to spurious claims of important material, like dishonourable bats, I have found for you a complete list of witnesses of the Pentagon incident.

“James R. Cissell” has his statement recorded in there in its original skewed form, and the link above shows that his words were completely distorted so we must not forget that the words as they are reported on the site are only hearsay, reported second hand by the media mostly.

Unfortunately an investigation of that list shows the following, facts about the witnesses themselves. One of the witnesses who was not mentioned on that site, and therefore whose own testimony was at least not tainted by potentially compromising circumstances, and did at least support the official account, is, surprise, James R. Cissell, who we now know had his testimony skewed.

Howler

Here is the full Silverstein story, look at it and see if you can maintain any doubts about it. It includes his full interview and staements since, as well as all the peripheral info which helps make the picture clearer.

Go here if you are seeking more information.  It is very thorough.

The puzzle of the passenger lists

This is a brief and compelling analysis of the most glaring anaomalies of 9/11.

From Holmgren’s analysis.

American Airlines flight 11, a Boeing 767, tail number N334AA, with 92 people aboard, including the hijackers, was hijacked by 5 Arabs, while on route from Boston to LA. It was known to be hijacked by 8.25 AM or earlier, and hit the Nth tower of the WTC at 8.46.

United Airlines flight 175, a Boeing 767, tail number N612UA, with 65 aboard , including the hijackers , was hijacked by 5 Arabs, while flying the same route as AA 11. It was known to be hijacked at about 8.55 AM and hit the Sth Tower of the WTC at 9.03.

The towers later collapsed due to fire and /or impact damage.

American Airlines flight 77, a Boeing 757, tail number N644AA, with 64 aboard, including the hijackers, was hijacked by 5 Arabs while on route from Dulles airport (DC) to LA. It was known to be hijacked at about 8.55 and hit the Pentagon at 9.45.

United Airlines flight 93, a Boeing 757, tail number N591UA, with 45 aboard, including the hijackers, on route from Newark (New Jersey) to SF , was hijacked by 4 Arabs. It was known to be hijacked about 9.45, and crashed in PA at 10.10.

The incriminating anomaly in this timeline is that the US air force did not scramble a single fighter jet to intercept any of the hijacked planes.

A little research into aviation regulations and historical precedent demonstrates that every one of those planes should have been intercepted by jet fighters before it got anywhere near its crash destination. The failure to launch any intercepts is only explainable by a systematic nation-wide stand down of routine air defence procedures. FAA regulations state that if any plane deviates from its flight path, and fails to respond to ATC commands or communications, it is automatically declared an emergency. This is because is it has become a hazard to other planes - even if no malicious intent is suspected. If ATC is any doubt as to whether an emergency exists, it is to be considered as one.
........................

The most spectacular example is that of the Pentagon strike. Two planes had already hit the WTC by 9.03 and yet this plane was allowed to fly for another 42 minutes, off course towards Washington, untroubled by the world’s most powerful air force. Only 10 miles from the Pentagon is Andrews Airbase, a huge installation which is responsible for air defence around the DC area, and maintains two squadrons of fighter jets on permanent standby for this very purpose, since the security of the White House, State dept, Capitol and the City of DC are also at stake. This was not an unforseen contingency. The Pentagon had twice in the last two years conducted drills specifically simulating a plane strike, and for decades, US security services had been wrestling with the potential problem of a hijacked airliner taking a suicide plunge into the Whitehouse.
On Sept 11, they had nearly an hours warning of the Pentagon attack - and grounded the entire air force - in violation of standard operating procedures that are automatically implemented even in the case of a single plane accidentally deviating from its course with no obviously hostile intent.
...........................

By 9.05 Bush was listening to a little girl read a story about her pet goat, and his Chief of staff, Andrew card came into the classroom and whispered in his ear that a second plane had hit the WTC and that “America was under attack.” Bush nodded casually and continued with the reading class - for about another 25 minutes, smiling ,joking and cheering about the reading skills of the children. A reporter who suggested that he should be addressing himself to the situation in NY was sternly rebuked by Bush, who said that now was not the time to be talking about it. And at this time, Bush knew that there was at least one more plane at large - something which no-one else in the class knew.

At 9.30, with AA 77 still flying unescorted towards DC, Bush finished the reading class (on schedule) and then wasted more time with a pointless speech to the nation, already promising to “hunt down and punish those responsible”, while showing no interest in doing anything about the plane which was still at large, a danger of which his audience was unaware. He left the school about the same time that the Pentagon was hit.

Later, in an attempt to cover up the fact that he’d still gone to the school in spite of being aware of the crisis, Bush lied about his movements on the morning, inventing a story that he was already at the school when the first WTC strike happened. This lie has worked its way into the popular mythology in the mainstream media. In the scramble to find a cover story for his movements that morning, Bush also carelessly claimed that he&