The 9/11 Faith Movement

Now Batgirl, everybody knows the rabbit NEVER bullshits.  His reputation for honesty remains as pure as the riven snow.

rive (rīv)

v., rived, riv·en (rĭv’ən) also rived, riv·ing, rives.

v.tr.
To rend or tear apart.
To break into pieces, as by a blow; cleave or split asunder.
To break or distress (the spirit, for example).
v.intr.
To be or become split.

[Middle English riven, from Old Norse rīfa.]

American Heritage Dictionary

So, Lagomorph, you are saying that your “reputation for honesty” is irrevocably shattered.  Well, that certainly agrees with my observation.  Finally, we agree on something.

Posted by scorp on Jul 31, 2006 at 10:00 AM

I made a mistake, and I admit it.  I missed at the bottom of the webpage hosting all the exciting new studies I regrettably exposed, that they indeed have been peer reviewed, apparently by Alex Floum, Marcus Ford, Derrick Grimmer, Richard McGinn, Kimberly Moore, Robert Moore, Diana Ralph, Kevin Ryan, Robert Stevens, Lon Waters and Paul Zarembka.  (Zarembka is that professor and fan of Marxist economics who was going to publish Steven Jones’ report until everybody realized how ... well ... let’s just say we were hoping for a journal with the words “science” or “engineering” in the name)

In the spirit of this new-found standard for peer review, where all you need is a group of your friends and neighbors to give the OK for publication, I hereby submit an alternate set of eminently scholarly papers.  Please bear in mind that they are definitely, genuinely and officially peer reviewed, by their peers, no less.  In fact, I believe the reviewers were even required to read through them backwards, to insure there were no subliminal messages implanted, intentionally or otherwise.

By the authority vested in me by the Universitatus Committeeatum e plurbis unum, I give you:

A long list of observations - Part I

A long list of observations - Part II

This may be a good excuse to get that new computer you’ve been wanting, one that can churn through these mega-mammoth pdf files with little or no burning smell.

For more peer reviewed papers, and for more information on the rigorous peer review process and requirements for submittal, please click here.

“Back where I come from we have universities, seats of great learning—where men go to become great thinkers.  And when they come out, they think deep thoughts—and with no more brains than you have….But!  They have one thing you haven’t got!  A diploma!” — the “Wizard”, 1939, unknowingly setting the academic standards for the 9/11 “truth” movement.  Ya see, all ya really need is a little confidence, and a little swagger.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 31, 2006 at 2:50 PM

Corpse

You are such an excitable little troll are you not? 
You get a hard on everytime you see a spelling error.  One wonders how you expect to achieve anything this way, but then I guess beggars can’t be choosers and at least you get to be right about something.

Pity that is all you can ever do on these forums, apart from act like a pompous prock.  Look! look Scorp a spelling mistake, get it quick before it goes away

Sorry though to take the wind from your sails but you best just check that post of Rabbit’s again.

Natalie

I made a mistake, and I admit it.  I missed at the bottom of the webpage hosting all the exciting new studies I regrettably exposed, that they indeed have been peer reviewed

Did you make a mistake Batgirl?  Does that mean to say you would rather people didn’t see that site?  Surely that isn’t what you mean?  That would be covering up—hiding things, Natalie.  You wouldn’t do that dear would you?  If you can’t win with the truth dear, it does seem a bit hopeless expecting to win by hiding anything, on the internet of all places.  You should be proud of yourself for exposing the charlatans to scrutiny sweetheart, if you are so sure that their studies and articles are such crap the you can only win by showing their paltry efforts in their full ignominious glory.  Rabbit never objects to any information being presented Nat, indeed he desires that people read every source you post, how else can they make up their own minds?

That is what you want isn’t it Batgirl? Best way to expose nonsense is by examining it for oneself.

Of course Batgirl would not expect people to merely take her word for it, so you send them along to see the charlatans Natty, if you’re right then your faith brigade will be gaining believers in no time I guess.

Besides what is wrong with shooting both your legs out from under yourself,?  Scorpy does it all the time, and look how well he is doing!

Meanwhile it seems that those crazy people are at it again, and dammit Nat if they are not getting growing MSM coverage too!

What’s up Batgirl, why are these people gaining traction?  You are going to have to peddle faster if you are going to turn the tide dear. You can’t rely on Scorpy, he is too busy checking Rabbit’s spelling and grammar and blowing smoke up his anus with a hose to save his back from all that bending over he was having to do before.

Just a small hint though, character attacks on people who speak out is wearing thin and I don’t think it is having the effect you are looking for.  You seem to be telling us more about yourself by doing this and nothing of consequence about anybody else.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 31, 2006 at 10:33 PM

Follow the Yellow Brick Road. Follow the Yellow Brick Road.
Follow, follow, follow, follow,
follow the rainbow over the stream,
follow the fella who follows a dream,
follow, follow, follow, follow, follow the yellow brick road.
You’re off to see the Wizard, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.
You’ll find he is a whiz of a Wiz! If ever a Wiz! there was.
If ever oh ever a Wiz! there was The Wizard of Oz is one because,
Because, because, because, because, because.
Because of the wonderful things he does.
You’re off to see the Wizard. The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.

Not quite as good as Sneetches, Natalie, but still good for a laugh.

Posted by David in Canada on Jul 31, 2006 at 10:35 PM

Follow the Yellow Cake Road. Follow the Yellow Cake Road.
Follow, follow, follow, follow,
follow the poison over the stream,
follow the DU which kills and maims,
follow, follow, follow, follow, follow the yellow cake road.
You’re off to see the Rabbit, The Wonderful Rabbit of Oz.
You’ll find he is a rabid old rabbit! If ever a Rabbit! there was.
If ever oh ever a Rabbit there was The Rabbit of Oz is one because,
Because, because, because, because, because.
Because of the wonderful things he does.
You’re off to see the Rabbit. The Wonderful Rabbit of Oz.

.........................^^.......................

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 31, 2006 at 11:00 PM

“Just a small hint though, character attacks on people who speak out is wearing thin and I don’t think it is having the effect you are looking for.”

Any talent I have for attack, I learned from you!!  I thought you’d be proud.  Waa.  Batgirl, Fruitbat, Natty the batty, vampire, lying vampire, evil, whore, and of course shill.  And dozens more.  I even try not to use any of your stuff.  Waa.

I’m not sure you really comprehended my last post though, you might want to read through it again, and actually click on the links I worked so hard to place just right at eye level.

Yeah, Marxy and I covered the sideshow on CSPAN.  It was great entertainment.  I’ve always said I’m eager for these clowns to come out of their closet so we “official story” people can get a clear swing at em.

Let’s see if they can stand the heat of the hot lights.  So far, whenever they manage to make it onto a forum where they’re challenged even by lay people, they don’t fare so well.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 1, 2006 at 1:36 AM

Lagomorph Anatidae -

You get a hard on everytime (sic) you see a spelling error.

Umm, no.  I only draw attention to errors of spelling and grammar when I quote someone who has made such an error; I certainly don’t want anyone to think I am responsible for your mistakes.  The fact that you are sic, sic, sic is your problem, not mine.

And besides this was not a spelling error that you made, it was a Freudian slip, and most apropos.

Your “reputation for honesty” and your capacity for critical thought are equally abysmal and disreputable.  I really don’t give a shit whether you can spell or not, but the world suffers from leprous intellects and morals such as yours.

Posted by scorp on Aug 1, 2006 at 9:42 AM

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I’m suspecting a deliberate controlled demolition of the three story structure in Qana, Lebanon.  I don’t know of any time in history when a three story house has just collapsed like that many hours apparently after it was hit by something, we don’t really know what.

One man said it was not even a bomb, but a large cucumber like object.  Since when do cucumbers cause three story houses to just collapse?  And many residents reported sounds of explosions several hours later.

There are too many unanswered questions here, and it certainly wouldn’t be the first time this government has done false flag operations.

I’m just saying let’s have an independent investigation, and not let these criminals get away with murdering their own citizens in order to advance their political agenda and justify their illegal war against someone who never even attacked them.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 1, 2006 at 7:19 PM

Natalie

Those are not character attacks Batgirl.  They are mockery of you.  Besides which your character is of such a type that it renders insults impossible.

Character attacks like your accusations of impure motives and drug addiction etc towards professionals and others who speak out are the issue.

Your disingenuous words are a constant indigtment of your cause.  By the way your last post says a lot about you too.

Corpse

You make a big deal out of any spelling errors you twerp.  You just made a federal case over the word riven!  You quoted for no other purpose than that.  Dropping a D from Driven is a spelling error, and the poverty of your point is shown by the universal reputation Rabbit has for honesty.  Any criticism coming from a dunce and a hopeless liar like you boyo doesn’t cut any ice around here.

By all means keep being a dickhead though, Rabbit would not have you any other way.

Do you two morons expect to achieve anything here or are you just enjoying being a pair of fools everyone just likes to kick?

On Conspiracy Theories

The worst terrorist attack in history came nearly five years ago on September 11, 2001 and it traumatized America. Most people were caught off-guard, including the defense establishment (apparently), but counterterrorism experts and government officials quickly appeared on TV to finger the perpetrators. A Fox anchorman even solved it within a minute of the second hit: “We just saw on live television as the second plane flew into the second tower of the World Trade Center. Now given what has been going on around the world, some of the key suspects come to mind: Osama bin Laden.”

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 2, 2006 at 12:56 AM

As far as this thread is concerned, you pair of abject morons have failed to do anything except produce what little exists to support the official fairy tale thus proving for me that nothing except far out theories exist to do so.

You have also demonstrated as I predicted would happen that only morons who deny and lie can support the offical tale, which is why you are alone still, and why your numbers are dwindling all the time.

You may eventually be the last two people still believing the lie, how amusing and how I do hope it will be so.  May neither of you ever learn anything or change your minds, I hope to see you standing alone in the smoking ruins of your cardboard castle one day.

You have used the very tactics I predicted you would, from the start.  All to no avail, since as the thread shows, Rabbit has had numerous success in spreading the truth, whereas you two have achieved nothing at all, beyond helping our case for the truth by your contrasting dishonesty.

The last few posts from you both are simply sinking below the radar altogether, beneath which not even I can be bothered responding to anymore.  You haven’t got anything so far, do you seriously imagine you will achieve it now?

You just keep on telling yourself you are great debater SCorpse, maybe you and Batgirl can telk to each other for a while now and tell each other how brilliantly you handled it all, and how utterly you have proven your case and how much you have crushed the rabbit.  You might as well, nobody else will be paying you any mind I’d guess.

Rabbit is personally content that he has shredded the spurious hit piece by Terry Allen and this view is encouraged by the reports of more than a dozen other posters who have been by. 

Rabbit encourages all to read what has been presented, the most important things are covered at the start of the thread.  Nobody has to believe all the theories about various details, because we are not obligated to provide all details under the circumstances.  It is enough for us to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the official fairy tale is not possible. 

THIS WE HAVE DONE.

The 9/11 truth movement has now got more than half the population on side, and this momentum is unstoppable as any watching of the media, MSM or otherwise must make clear.

Even many who still believe it, will be ours sooner rather than later.  The fact that those who believe the faith story know very little about the facts which make it a farce should be cause for pause.

I’m glad Batgirl is prepared to sacrfice even more credibility with her last post which shows only how incredibly poor her own comprehension of the amount of evidence which shows the controlled demos of the three WTCs is.  You may be trying to be ironic Nat, but what you are being is disingenuous, which is all I could ask of you. 

Oh and Batgirl, The Israelis never denied bombing Qana, they admitted it and are proud of it even if you look at their hate filled forums.  So you are scraping new depths of the barrel dear.

.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 2, 2006 at 1:24 AM

“Oh and Batgirl, The Israelis never denied bombing Qana, they admitted it and are proud of it….”

And al Qaeda never denied bombing the Trade Center, they admitted it and are proud of it.

But doesn’t it seem a little strange that these buildings JUST FELL DOWN seven long hours after the initial stike, which failed to do any major damage to the buiding?

It just so happens that this is the first time in history that a three story building has just fallen down for no reason, except for a few small fires.

There is a good motive for what I and a growing number of people all around the world believe really happened.  (The collapse resembled what we’ve all seen on TV a hundred times—a controlled demolition.)

We’ve already seen what a public relations coup by Hezbollah this has been.  They’ve seen world sympathy pour out for them and their deceased women and children.  But they themselves murdered these innocents.  They deliberately rigged the building to explode long before they started firing rockets from the backyard, knowing that it would attrack a missile strike from Israel.  Then, they fled, and returned soon after to set off their explosives by remote control or maybe even directly.

Another theory is that the explosives they stored in a residential building were set off by the small fires that were set by the minor bomb attack.  Either way, they are responsible for their deaths.

I’m not accusing anybody of anything, but I and a growing number of Americans and I think Australians simply demand an independent investigation.  A recent poll said that a clear majority don’t approve of what is going on in the middle east.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 2, 2006 at 2:37 AM

Too late Natsky, its all been covered before.

OBL denied having anything to do with 9/11, al-Qaeda is CIA controlled, everyone but you knows that, and I thought you were denying it was bombs?  The FBI don’t have him down as responsible even but I guess you know more than the FBI?

Making an arsehole out of yourself as you are now doing is pathetic even for you.  Red cross have said there were no Hezbollah in Qana by the way.

Your case is dead and buried, Bat, but you stay here and roll around in it’s remains. It’s what you do best.  The case for your official story being purely faith based is long since made.  The proof of controlled demolitions has been given.  Denial isn’t helping your case, and nor are Scorpse and his spelling mistakes.  You might as well stick around here and flog the dead horse some more, I am tired of mucking about repeating the same things over and over.

You cannot be convinced of anything, as even Chemical residues tests doesn’t cause you to pause in your lies and denial.  You are a shill and the Corpse is an idiot, everyone is unanimous about this. 

People were saying two pages ago that there is enough here to convince them, they were folks who had not made up their minds before.  Stay attached to a dying cause, it suits you.

That you are now shilling for Israeli Terrorism, murder of children, in an effort to somehow draw a link between Qana and 9/11 is almost too rank to stomach.  While you’re at it, you might want to excuse the Israeli missiles and strafing of Red Cross ambulances and don’t forget UN observers.  Tell us about spurious claims of Hezbollah using ambulances, as if an honourable resistance would, and as if they would knowing the Zionists don’t hesitate to kill civilans, that’s about your level of reason and logic and we know it. Tell us how even if they did, this would justify shooting up ambulances just in case they had Hezbollah inside.

You stay here and show people what a sick deluded puppy you are, you’ll only drag your long since dead case down further.

Meanwhile Rabbit is enjoying to see the Bushling and his fellow cockroaches starting to panic at the thought they might have to face trial for their crimes after all.  Never forget, I already know you are going to lose. I already know the day will come when you will be lying through your teeth pretending you never supported DU or the increasingly farcical 9/11 faith based lie your failing government peddles.

My satisfaction at knowing for a fact that you can never win, that the day of truth is approaching is considerable.  When Bushling is indigted and the 9/11 lies come crashing down, I know you will be nowhere to be found.  Vermin like you and Scorp never take responsibility for their filth, you shill and spin, lie and cover up until the end, then off you scuttle and pretend you were one of us all along.

Everyone who engages you in discussion for any length of time expresses the same feeling of loathing, a feeling of being soiled by contact.  That is an awful indigtment, you really should be ashamed.

For your information, by far the majority of Australians are furious with Israel, and even those many who once blindly bought the Zionist propaganda have been turned by the horrors of the Israeli aggression.

By the way, Israel is doomed.  This latest round of hate filled murder and war criminal aggression cannot be covered up, and despite not even having access to the truth, merely by virtue of an Israeli biased media, they can yet see Israel is a satanic state.

Nobody who even is dumb enough to believe Hezbollah’s legitimate capture of two IOF soldiers justified Israeli mass murder, can accept the beastiality which you clearly and not surprisingly revel in.  I also can read polls Batgirl, and most Americans are waking up this time too.

Keep it up, the liars and war criminals need all the support they can get, and at this point, you’re it.

By the way, Hezbollah waited 2 days after the Israeli holocaust was launched before finally starting to fire their pretty litle rockets into Israel.  The gutless Zionists are so scared, they are wetting themselves even though they admit the rockets are not very dangerous, more likely to win the lottery they are saying.  Still they are cringing in their holes in the ground like the cowardly scum they have become.

God bless the legitimate and courageous resistance of Hezbollah.  The Zionists are digging their own grave, they will never win, but whereas once they might have been allowed to exist, even that is more than they deserve now, and I expect to see Israel eventually destroyed altogether.  Thanks mainly to the sort of support the Neo-Cons are giving them.  If they had been forced to negotiate then they would have peace.  Hamas and Hezbollah have offerred negotiation long since, but that is why the Zionists started this war.  They didn’t intend to allow peace to have a chance.

The Hamas announced they were ready to negotiate, the next day Israel murdered a Palestinian family on a Gaza beach and another family in their car.  Live by the sword, you will die by it.  What you sow, so shall you reap.  The future doesn’t look good for you on that score either Natalie.

Rabbit has not got the least doubt that the truth will prevail.  I hope you can speak Russian?  I think it will be Russia who will be occupying the USA in time.  By this time next year, you will begin to realise you are doomed.  Never forget when that time comes, you were not merely a passive moron who let it happen, you have been an active supporter of the lies and the evil, these will be your personal legacy.  The world you have helped to create for your son, no amount of denial will save your conscience when you can no longer pretend.

Rabbit’s work here is done.  I shall repeat the thing you wish nobody would read, even though you were daft enough to post it yourself.  You have been dumber than usual, and have lost worse than usual, which is seriously saying something.

In honour of the FRUIT BAT, Natalie the undead, Rabbit presents .
the truth about the WTC collapses, based upon scientific analysis and peer reviewed studies.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 2, 2006 at 5:28 AM

Knowing how much the truth annoys Batgirl and Corpse.

The day before the “kidnap” of the Israeli soldier, Israel “kidnapped” Palestinians. It was even reported in the news albeit briefly before the story mysteriously vanished. Here it is.

Hezbollah captured the two IOF soldiers in Lebanon.

The timeline of events in the ME, prove irrevocably that Israel is the instigator, the terrorist and that Hezbollah are defending themselvs by firing their pretty little rockets into the land of Zion.  The Katyushas unfortunately are not anywhere near as effective as the tens of thousands of bombs and missiles and shells being hurled at Lebanese civilian centers and infrastructure.

This shows that Hezbollah’s capture of the two soldiers, which is entirely legal under international law since the two countries are technically at war, and soldiers are legitimate targets, occurred on July 12.  They have done this before and it has resulted in prisoner swaps.  They had long since signalled their intentions to capture IOF soldiers for this purpose too.  Hezbollah stated the purpose was prisoner swap and re-iterated this over the next two days and ever since but Isreal began a massive pre-prepared holocaust the same day.

Hezbollah waited two days seeking a peaceful solution, before finally firing the first pretty little Katyusha rockets on July 14th. TWO DAYS LATER!  So the lies being spouted by Zionist swine and their pet shill pigs like you, are laid bare for the world to see.  The swine actually clain repeatedly they are responding to rocket attcks from Hezbollah.

UH UH!  Hezbollah didn’t start this Batgirl and Corpse, the Zionist scum did.  The facts speak for themselves.

This is the reason Israel started it as it happens.

<u>Tuesday, June 27:</u> Hamas, which dominates the Palestinian government, signs agreement to end bitter internal conflict and which implicitly recognises Israel’s existence.   I told you so!

<u>Wednesday, July 12:</u> Hezbollah captures two Israeli soldiers and kills eight, prompting first Israeli ground operation into Lebanon since its 2000 pull-out. In Gaza, 23 Palestinians are killed by Israeli air strikes.

<u>Friday, July 14:</u> Israel bombs Beirut home of Hezbollah chief Hassan Nasrallah. He declares “open war” on Israel. Israel sets conditions to end offensive: halt rocket attacks, release its soldiers, and Lebanon to implement UN resolution calling for Hezbollah’s disarmament. Two Israelis killed by rocket fire from Lebanon.

The facts are even more undeniable than usual this time, but what is the bet you’ll not be able to face up to them this time either?  Which just goes to prove what I’ve said all along, your opinions about 9/11 are worse than useless.

How about reading these terrifying words of the scary terrorist leader.  Too bad you don’t have a leader with a hundredth as much intelligence, honour and wisdom as this guy!  Next to your chimp, or even our bastard prime minister this guy is a prince.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 2, 2006 at 5:43 AM

No doubt you reckon Israel was just defending itself?   So why were they preparing this invasion over a year ago?  Israeli newspapers have stated outright that the invasion was prepared and just seeking any excuse.  Of course that sort of news would never be printed in the USA, since the Idiot American Goyim need to be kept ignorant for them to be milked out of their treasure, so the Zionist controled press keeps the lid on it in the USA, not hard to do with morons like you two stinking up the place.  Most of the rest of the world does get this news, which is why most of the rest of the world is against this evil.  But no no no, not the stupid Americans, they must be kept dumb, not hard, so they will keep on feeding the Zionist monster with Cash and Weapons.  They don’t even like or respect you, go look at some of their forums.  They see you as milk cows.

Twelve things I’ll bet you don’t know about this war.  Not least being that Olmert’s daughter is a peace activist!

This one is only for people with their own minds and the ability to use them.  You pair of morons best leave it alone.  It has opinions in it as well as facts which will only confuse you..  ALL the rest I’ve posted is just establishing facts. The sort of things reasonable people base their opinions on.

We do know that morons like you prefer to tailor facts to suit your opinions, but Rabbit keeps telling you this is not the way it should be done.  Show us all again how you begin with opinions and then twist the facts to fit your equally twisted views.  It should help bury you both in your own degenerate character flaws, thus showing once again why Rabbit and others hold you in the utmost contempt.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 2, 2006 at 9:25 AM

Interesting friends your emperor has.  What was that about drugs?  Well they have to come from somewhere I guess!

Rabbit shall leave you pair of Assholes with a nice little song in honour of your emperor.  Enjoy it.

You are also free to slime up the place and make bigger dicks of yourselves, without me replying since I’m not wasting time debating any of this with such human waste as you are.  Mostly I’m making use of the edit function to “store” these posts for use on other forums, wherever ignorance needs an injection of the truth.

The rabbit has work to do, places to hop.  Have fun dummies.  Please do make mongrels of yourselves denying more truth, Rabbit specifically requests you BOTH to rant and rave and demonstrate for all time how little truth matters to you.

And enjoy the nice song, its well earned!

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 2, 2006 at 10:09 AM

“You are also free to slime up the place and make bigger dicks of yourselves, without me replying since I’m not wasting time debating any of this with such human waste as you are.  Mostly I’m making use of the edit function to “store”  these posts for use on other forums, wherever ignorance needs an injection of the truth.”

Translation:  I haven’t provided a shred of physical evidence to support my ridiculous, paranoid, and judging by my Hezbo loving rant above, hate induced conspiracy theories regarding the events of 9/11, so I’m gonna create a bunch of smoke, thunder, boasting and bluster to make ignorant people think I have, and then leave like the coward that I am.  I realize that my sources are merely a collection of tabloid crap, and their total lack of credibility has been effectively exposed by Natalie.

“God bless the legitimate and courageous resistance of Hezbollah.”

Translation:  I am siding with a terrorist organization who’s thug leader hates all jews and probably thinks the holocaust didn’t happen.  And if it did happen, he’s dissapointed that it wasn’t allowed to be completed.  A terrorist organization that’s murdered more Americans second only to al-Qaeda, who I’ve also sided with in trying to deny their responsibility for 9/11.  Just like I side with the “resistance” in Iraq, who blow to bits innocent men, women and children simply because it’s more efficient than severing their heads individually.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 2, 2006 at 3:02 PM

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN, AUG 1, 2006:  My next guest, Jeffrey Goldberg, a writer for “The New Yorker,” visited south Lebanon and got some extensive tours by Hezbollah of the areas under their control and of their television station.

COOPER: It’s fascinating and important, I think, to focus on this. It’s easy to kind of gloss over the realities of what Hezbollah is saying in all the coverage…...

That’s your buddies they’re talking about, Rabbit.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 2, 2006 at 3:04 PM

“They don’t hide it. They don’t try to mask it in any way. They state very openly to you when you ask their exact feelings about Jews, which are quite extreme.”

Are you masking something, Rabbit?

Talk about shooting one’s self in one’s foot.
And you don’t even have an excuse—you’re not blind drunk like Mel Gibson.

Or are you?

Posted by Natalie on Aug 2, 2006 at 3:08 PM

Ignoring the dribbling Bat, Rabbit just drops in some more proof she is an inveterate liar.

Batgirl at Natalie on Jul 27, 2006 at 10:01 PM.

3) All kinds of planes have been intercepted by NORAD in the past (not true, only 1 has, and in 1hr, 22min.)

I just came across this which states they scrambled 67 times in the nine months before 9/11. 

Either she is the biggest liar, or the biggest idiot about.  I have not kept track of the outright lies she has been caught out in with this thread, but it is close to fifty.  Rabbit never lied once.  Not asingle example of a lie, or a mistruth has the rabbit been shown to have told, just hollow accusations from the lowest form of life on the net.

Mel Gibson blind drunk?  She does have an imagination.  0.12% is about three drinks, not exactly blind drunk.  0.1% isn’t even an offence in many states. 

How desperate one has to be to sink to the depths of degrading behaviour the Bat does.  Nothing much funnier than the Batgirl who has been bounced all over this thread like a rubber ball, calling the rabbit dishonest.

HO HO HO.  Call the rabbit a liar again, please.  It makes him shiver with happiness to have such as you accuse him of such as that. 

Keep on trawling through the muck, show us how much lower you can slither, it is really all that is left for me to do.  I cannot destroy the faith based fairy tail any more than I have, it is dead and buried.  But as for showing what a sleazy duplicitous maniac she is, that job is never done.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 2, 2006 at 8:11 PM

I have been a regular reader of “In These Times” for a couple of years and don’t normally comment on articles.  I don’t for that matter usually read the comments. 

This time the article was so poorly written, just a lazy series of personal attacks that I couldn’t help myself.  I sure am glad that I did.  It has taken me almost two weeks to read down to this point, and looking at the myriad links to sources has been time consuming to say the least.

I must thank the Rabbit for making it such an amusing and eventful experience, what a funny fellow you are Mr Rabbit.  A crazy wacky rabbit from the land downunder eh?

I began this “journey” a member of the “Faith Brigade” as Mr Rabbit puts it.  I had heard about all manner of crazy conspiracy theories regarding the WTC and Pentagon attacks in 2001 but taking the word of people like Terry Allen for example I never sought to find out what exactly these theories entailed.  I assumed they would be as flakey as theories about JFK’s assasination.  Now I am informed about what these so called conspiray theorists are saying and I am both shocked and somewhat frightened too.  The most shocking to me is that these are not theories, but as can clearly be ascertained from the study of this thread, virtually proven facts. 

The frightening thing is that obviously so much effort has gone into and is still being expended in keeping this truth from the American people.  At one stage and despite having grown rather fond of his odd mannerisms I was quite convinced that Rabbit was being unneccesarily rude to Natalie, and almost posted once to say as much.  However having now reached the stage where I have seen her and her sidekick Scorp (Corpse - LOL) flailing about denying obvious facts and ignoring some extremely damning evidence, I have come to hold both of them in a similar vein of contempt as the Rabbit himself.  What terrible and shameless liars and prevaricators you both are. 

More than half the links given by Natalie are nothing but wasted space, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the issues being discussed, and as has been pointed out they are often misquoted by the woman. (Batgirl - LOL)

Nothing presented by her or her sidekick is the least bit compelling, invariably being nothing more than theorising and speculation.  I suppose this was something of a shock too.  That the entire official story is a load of hogwash.  There is not an ounce of credible evidence or testimony which lends any credibility to the story which I am now sure is a hollow myth.  This was not even a debate between two opposing views.  It has been a constant building up of facts and testimony which as Rabbit says forms an interlocking chain of evidence, with a couple of mentally deranged clowns attempting to cover the truth and smear all who attempt to find it.

Shame on you both.  It is easy to see what is becoming of our country when such people as you are allowed to roam free and behave like this.  You have never once successfully refuted the points made by Mr Marx or Rabbit (sorry I know there were more of you I cannot remember all your names now), but you have told us a great deal about the paucity of the government case by your lack of ability to make it fly, despite trying desperately now for hundreds of posts.  Shame on you both.

I am only commenting because I think the Rabbit deserves credit for his gargantuan efforts to bring the truth to our notice.  I did indeed begin as a member of the “Faith Brigade” and you deserve credit for having turned that insult by Terry Allen on its ear.  Thanks to your efforts I am now much better informed and there can be no doubt that 911 was an inside job which continues to this day in the sense it is being actively covered up. 

You can rest assured Mr Rabbit that you are correct in your presumption that the truth can only go in one direction.  Nobody can ever be convinced by the government story, it is as empty as the head of George W Bush and not capable of convincing anybody.  It would seem that Americans can be extremely gullible and nothing proves this more than the kneejerk reaction so many of us had in accepting what is in retrospect a completely farcical tale.

I shudder to think where this country is going.  Eventually the truth of September 2001 is going to come out.  Unlike the speculation and theories around JFK’s murder the 911 Truth movement is based upon solid evidence witnesses and science.  I suppose I shall be joining that group in our office who have long been called the looneys, by some others, but I would rather be called a looney, by ill informed fools than an ally by the same fools.  Besides which I have a few friends who only need to see some of this information to appreciate the significance, I suspect the so called looneys will soon outnumber the poor fools who as yet don’t even realise three WTCs fell down on 911.

Finally I wish to recommend that anyone else who wishes to find the truth more quickly than I did, that you go to the following source, of all those given it is the most comprehensive and scientifically rock solid.

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

I would suggest Rabbit need not waste any more time on the fools called Natalie and Scorp.  They are as you seem aware too, their own worst enemies.  You have done an exceptional job and deserve a rest.  Nothing more needs to be said to, as you say destroy the “official fairy tale”. 

Have no fear Mr Rabbit, you are an honest and intelligent soul, and nobody could take seriously the accusations being levelled at you by such discredited and ignorant fools as Natalie and Scorp.  (Batgirl and Corpse.)  Actually they are complimenting you indirectly by their obvious terror of your knowledge and skills.

I will be taking a closer look at depleted uranium now it has been shown to be another of Natalies interests.  That is enough in itself to suggest there is more to that story too.  I thought depleted uranium was just uranium with the radiation removed, but if Natalie defends this as desperately as the lies about 911, I guess there must be more to this story too.

Sincerely Kal

Posted by KansasKal on Aug 2, 2006 at 9:27 PM

Unfortunately, Rabbit, the subject of intercepts, scrambles and such is way more complicated than that.  Open up your mind and consider the intricacies of the issue.  Cleanse yourself of the habit of jumping to conclusions with incomplete information.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 2, 2006 at 10:40 PM

Kal,

Thanks for your participation.  I would be interested in specifically what makes you believe that the unusual theories put forth by the 9/11 “truth” movement are meritorious.

What was it that made you go hmmmm?

Posted by Natalie on Aug 2, 2006 at 10:46 PM

I post this extract from the Rabbit-link above to highlight a similarity.

Whenever Israel indulges in aggression , it hides behind the Holocaust and its’ propagandists accuse all critics of anti-semitism .

Now the USA is actively engaged in two Occupations, widespread torture and murder, supporting 100% the disastrous acts of the State of Israel,  all of this is justified by a War on Terror.

And tthe justification for THAT WAR always, without FAIL, comes back to 911.

Oren Ben-Dor: Who are the real terrorists in the Middle East?

What exactly is being defended? Is it the citizens of Israel or the nature of the Israeli state?
Published: 26 July 2006
As its citizens are being killed, Israel is, yet again, inflicting death and destruction on Lebanon. It tries to portray this horror as necessary for its self-defence. Indeed, the casual observer might regard the rocket attacks on Israeli cities such as Haifa and my own home town, Nahariya, as justifying this claim.

.....
What exactly is being defended by the violence in Gaza and Lebanon? Is it the citizens of Israel or the nature of the Israeli state? I suggest the latter. Israel’s statehood is based on an unjust ideology which causes indignity and suffering for those who are classified as non-Jewish by either a religious or ethnic test. To hide this primordial immorality, Israel fosters an image of victimhood. Provoking violence, consciously or unconsciously, against which one must defend oneself is a key feature of the victim-mentality. By perpetuating such a tragic cycle, Israel is a terrorist state like no other.

.......The very creation of Israel required an act of terror. In 1948, most of the non-Jewish indigenous people were ethnically cleansed from the part of Palestine which became Israel. This action was carefully planned. Without it, no state with a Jewish majority and character would have been possible. Since 1948, the “Israeli Arabs”, those Palestinians who avoided expulsion, have suffered continuous discrimination. Indeed, many have been internally displaced, ostensibly for “security reasons”, but really to acquire their lands for Jews.

Surely Holocaust memory and Jewish longing for Eretz Israel would not be sufficient to justify ethnic cleansing and ethnocracy? To avoid the destabilisation that would result from ethical inquiry, the Israeli state must hide the core problem, by nourishing a victim mentality among Israeli Jews.<a > Oren ben-Dor</a>      </a>

Posted by frog on Aug 2, 2006 at 11:06 PM

Frog,

What is it that Israel must do to satisfy their critics?  What do you think would be necessary to pacify the Arab population?  Long term.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 2, 2006 at 11:54 PM

Move to Florida.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 3, 2006 at 12:04 AM

You’re getting warm, wileywitch!!

Posted by Natalie on Aug 3, 2006 at 12:36 AM

Natalie

I have already answered your somewhat loaded question above.  I see no point in reiterating the volume of interlocking evidence facts, reports, witnesses and scientific studies which make a most compelling case for the alternative explanation of september 2001.

Even in 2001 I felt a distinct unease the way they seemed to have all the answers about what happened within hours yet supposedly knew NOTHING the day before.  This stayed buried for me but quickly resurfaced when I discovered the FBI to this day lack enough evidence to charge Bin Ladin.  hmm I said then.  From that point on the case for controlled demolition and government involvment simply went from strength to strength and it took no more than Rabbit’s first few posts before I was mentally convinced of the truth, and that the government version was nothing but a fairy tale as Rabbit puts it.  This did not mean I could face the truth in my heart.  This is where you came in. It was you Natalie who made it possible even imperative that I accept the truth and move on from there. 

Eventually I felt an almost physical revulsion for you and your methods which are nothing less than dissemblinbg and prevarication.  Your constant tone of fake superiority backed as it is by nothing except thinly disguised propaganda had me wanting to jump down the phoneline and throttle you.  To Rabbit’s credit he can cope with you better than I could.  By association with the official story you made it easy for me in the end to turn away from the hollow faith which is all you seem to have to offer.

Scorp had no effect on anything at all.  He is obviously a juvenile or a deranged adult with serious resentment towards Rabbit.  His one track and pathetic attempts to take part in the debate were mere distractions but clearly he and you provide some sort of moral support for each other.  You on the other hand appear to have an agenda, and this fact in itself is an indigtment of a case which cannot be made without resorting to slander and by covering up facts rather than examining them.

The number of times you have been shown to actually be attempting to deceive is quite amazing, you are a despicable person Natalie, this can be the only conclusion.  After struggling to come to terms with the shocking truth for a while it finally dawned on me that your sort seems to be the only sort anywhere on the internet supporting the official story.  Thus the obvious final straw was found.  If the official account of september 2001 requires champions such as your duplicitous self to maintain believers, then count me out.  Reading the intolerable falsehoods and hollow rhetoric of your case, and watching your disgraceful conduct in attempting to derail an honest look at the facts left me feeling physically ill at times.  You are certainly doing no favours for your cause, which seems about par for the course with anything this administration gets into.  So you seem remarkably familiar, in tune with the Bush administration and I have no problem believing you are paid to spread lies and propaganda.  If so they are wasting my taxes, but what else is new?

I hope that answers your question Natalie, but if it does not, I do not care.  As I said I did not come here to debate or to teach, I came to learn, and if you had not inspired my disgust such as you have with your dishonesty I might not have felt compelled to speak up.  It occurred to me that Rabbit had given so much of his time and effort to ensuring the truth was presented here, that the least I could do was assure him it was worth it.  It gives me some satisfaction to be able to confirm that his efforts were worth it, and at the same time to disabuse you of the notion you have done anything useful unless it was to drive me finally from the uncomfortable perch between knowing the truth which is actually easy to follow after all, and having to accept the truth which is far from easy.

Rabbit your picture is much more cute than our Kansas Kangaroos, or Jackrabbits.  They are big, rangy and fast as the wind. 

I wonder if that is not a good description of you mind though?  Though you have brought me pain, this knowledge is a burden, still I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Posted by KansasKal on Aug 3, 2006 at 2:00 AM

KansasKal is in Oz? 

The rabbit thought Kansas is in USA

He has our flag upon his posts, what does this mean?  Are you in Oz or do you fly Rabbit’s little flag for respect?

Glad to have been of service.

Batgirl asks one hopper

What is it that Israel must do to satisfy their critics?  What do you think would be necessary to pacify the Arab population?  Long term

and another hopper answers.

They could stop killing their leaders, kidnapping their people, murdering their civilians and then pull back to the pre 1967 borders as all Arab nations have demanded, according to one of the sixty or more UN resolutions, and then the Arabs will naturally recognise and make peace with Israel.  They have never made any secret of this.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 3, 2006 at 2:11 AM

Hello Mr Rabbit

No sir I am not in Australia, in fact I am in Bangkok, in a hotel using my laptop computer.  The flag is probably due to the call being routed through an Australian server, I imagine when I get home in a few days I’ll have old glory down there, but its not likely I’ll be posting much so don’t expect to see me.

I am too busy to do more than read as a rule and only managed this much due to the business I came to arrange having been finished early leaving me a couple of days before flight home again.  It’s too hot to go outside so staying in front of the airconditioner.  If this is winter in the soouth I’ll settle for Kansas any day.

Posted by KansasKal on Aug 3, 2006 at 2:25 AM

Kal said:

I have already answered your somewhat loaded question above.  I see no point in reiterating the volume of interlocking evidence facts, reports, witnesses and scientific studies which make a most compelling case for the alternative explanation of september 2001.

If the evidence is so voluminous, and so compelling, surely you can name for me the top three pieces thereof that cause you to swim so against the conventional wisdom.

You say you’re here to learn.  Let’s see what you’ve learned so far that has caused you to so comfortably embrace the “unofficial story”.

Just three things.  Easy.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 3, 2006 at 2:30 AM

Hi KANSAS,

Yet one more example of the insincerity of the NastyNat, just above .

One of her major aims is to divert the discussion down side-alleys, so she asks an “innocent” question, what should Israel do, when the answer is already implied immediately above in blockquotes .

Back to topic. I don’t know about the scrambles /interceptions, how many were practice alerts etc etc.
Any armed service worth the name should always be practicing, be ready, but we have found out from the insider Kean Commission that EVEN THEY found it difficult to get honest answers from your military .

WOW !  This from the Washington Post

Posted by frog on Aug 3, 2006 at 2:53 AM

Natalie -

Lagomorph is posting as KK.  He has gone schizo, in addition to being deluded, pathological, and suicidal.

It is best to ignore him.  When he no longer has an audience (he MUST have an audience) he will go somewhere else or, alternatively, carry on a converstion with KK, and possibly other persona of his own construction.

Enjoy your excellent work.

Posted by scorp on Aug 3, 2006 at 3:05 AM

Scorpling you are such a dope and so full of delusions and imaginings.

Rabbit has exactly three email adresses and two of them are banned from ITT thanks to creeps like you and Batgirl.  Besides which I challenge anyone to change their ID’s on this site in what must be less than two or three minutes of Kal’s and Rabbit’s posts above.  One thing you could not know is how slow is my computer what’s more with only 257meg ram it is slow as a wet week to log on or off anything anyway.

Not that your feeble opinion is worth anything, you are a confirmed loser, as suggested who resents the rabbit.  Considering the number of times people send me congratulations on crushing your puny self, that;s not suprising.  Is it true little Scorpy, do you really resent the rabbit?  How sad for you.  I never realised how much of a sick puppy you were until Kal pointed that out actually.

Your delusions of grandeur are amusing but sad too.  Hopefully Kal will do Rabbit the honour of posting a wee note to the deluded Corpse when he returns to the land of the Kansas Kangaroo, just to shove the Scorpy’s sick little nose in it.

I believe Kal mentions two days?  So within three I’m sure you’ll have an answer.  At least I hope so, for it struck me as odd he has the Oz flag too, but that is sounding true about the servers anyway.  Rabbit wondered how they knew where we were.  Since Rabbit was the one to pick the flag first, and since he does often refer to the flags, he would hardly have been so dumb as to not tkae it into account anyway.  Scorpy often thinks he is Sherlock Holmes, but invariably proves he’s just a Duck after all.  At least Batgirl is marginally brighter than the Corpse in most respects.

Now what would the ravings of a silly Corpse who is but a poor distraction at best matter?  That you think the Batgirl’s efforts are excellent work is just the icing on the cake for Rabbit.  She has in all truth been proven to be a liar, an inveterate invertebrate.  Scorpy finds this ecellent, what more can be said?

Oh and by the way Corpse, I have been waiting to see how long you took to prove your utter debased character.  I find the comment about being suicidal under the circumstances, to be about the lowest piece of crap anyone could pull.  It says a great deal about you sunshine.  You are without doubt the most revolting little bit of mucus from the backside of a CJD infected bovine ever to have posed as a man, and I may be wrong but in her heart, if she has one, even Batgirl may find that to be a bit rich.  Unfortunately for you my little troglodite, Rabbit is over the worst of the shock and pain of having become a lone rabbit, thanks to the humanity of Frog, and others.  Even Batgirl showed she was not far removed from humanity at that time and to her credit I doubt even she would sink so low.  Not that it worries me in the least being honest has the advantage of not having to hide anything.

For your sake though Scorp I had hoped you were above it.  Thankyou for showing who is indeed the lowest common denominator.  I can see you are indeed the one for the prize.

Kal was not the first to comment on the efficacy of the message here presented, and he was not the first to find you to be a gross little worm, and Nat the Bat to be a lying shill.  Maybe you think Rabbit was all of them too? 

Now why would we doubt that the two mini-morons who popped up early in the thread, were not you or the bat playing at games?  I just ask Scorpse for I wondered at the time, but figured it mattered not a bit.

By the way, what is a Kansas Kangaroo?  Rabbit never heard this before, but have heard of Jackrabbit’s.  A rabbit called Jack?  Is this a giant bunny?  Like those giant Welsh rabbits, or some kind of hare maybe?

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 3, 2006 at 3:21 AM

Why would someone who has spent two weeks reading this, who has come to a conclusion and who has clearly got your number Batgirl, care to play your pathetic games?  Kal’s point is that he came he saw he learnt.  You just lost another Faither, and you won’t be getting him back.  Do you think by engaging him at this stage he would change his mind?  You are a wackjob!

You just don’t know when to quit, but that doesn’t mean the game aint’ over.  For you it is. You have been told that you are worse than useless to the cause of the faith based fairy tale.  Your efforts have never given you any reason to doubt it either.

You have less than zero admirers.  (Scorpy is less than zero!)

Frog that is an interesting article in the WP.  It goes a long way to destroying the credibility of the Pentagon, as if it had any to begin with.  It’s MSM placement is the most telling though.  With the stuff C-Span is running at the moment, and re-running, plus the attention the 9/11 symposium has been getting, I’d say the day is barrelling in these days.  It’s just a matter of time before George of the Bungle is getting the frogmarch (sorry Frog) out of the Blight House I’d say.

By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 2, 2006;

Dan Eggen, there you go Nat, some character attacks needed here, come along please and slander Dan Eggen, he has printed something damaging to the cause of the faith.  A heretic by golly, a wicked journalistic backslider.  How dare he tell people about the Pentagon lying to the extent criminal charges are considered.

By the way it is so craven of you to immediately attack someone like Kal just because he doesn’t agree with your fable.  It just proves again how wicked you are.  We all find you to be abominable, that’s the bottom line.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 3, 2006 at 3:37 AM

Kal = Rabbit?

I kinda doubt it scorp, because Kal actually seems to know how to construct a sentence and make a point, however wrong and irrelevant it may be.

What I do wonder about is how he/she is able to exceed the 4000 word limit with such ease.  Now there’s a conspiracy seed for ya.

I must admit to being a little surprised at the traction this silly movement is gaining.  But let’s remember, the fact that the Star and the Globe are also on prominent display at every supermarket checkout in the country is hardly an indication of any kind of truth.  (well there is that broken clock thing)

Perhaps like crop circles, aliens @ Roswell, faked moon landings, Danny Devito actually being a separate species and hurricanes being created by a machine in Japan, these truthies are just something we’re gonna have to learn to peacefully coexist with. 

Naaaa!!!!!!!!

—————————————————————-

“Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 truth “movement” into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense.  You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment if you simply run your revelation du jour through the following before opening your mouth at that party, or sending that email to that friend who assumes you are still sane.” — Natalie

9/11 myths
Debunking 911
Peer reviewed papers debunking the “truth” movement.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 3, 2006 at 12:16 PM

Florida is getting warm, right Natalie? O.K.—- Howzabout Alabama? 

And you would be the perfect mentor, oh Bat of Wonder, to show KansasKal how to stay at the 4,000 word limit when it’s time for the card stacking game.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 3, 2006 at 3:36 PM

Hey , NattyShill,

How come the National Security Adviser to your beloved Bushnazi41 pretended before all the world that “nobody would have imagined “terrists flying planes into high buildings ?

Huh ! Frog remembers well the Airfrtance flight hijacked in 1994 to ‘do’  the Eiffel Tower.

Bojinka ,1995,  too ?

Kansas’ problem of choosing “three” is what we cheese-eating surrender-monkeys call “un embarras de richesses” .

So much to choose from, why stop at three ?

Either CONDI was knowingly kying through her teeth, or she was so grossly ignorant she should have been fired in disgrace, maybe executed.. (GWB loves that…..)

Waal, she got promoted. So much for accountability/ .

You who are so good on details—- what are the penalties for TREASON ?

Rarely death, because your soulmate traitor Jonathan Pollard is still INSIDE, despite all the efforts of your “friends"at AIPAC .

Posted by frog on Aug 3, 2006 at 6:04 PM

wileywitch said:

“Florida is getting warm, right Natalie? O.K.—- Howzabout Alabama?”

Well, you’re pretty much staying the same temperature there, ww.  I’ll save you more guessing by just giving you the answer:

Ahmadinejad: Destroy Israel, End Crisis

“And you would be the perfect mentor, oh Bat of Wonder, to show KansasKal how to stay at the 4,000 word limit when it’s time for the card stacking game.”

Now now, you’ve left out the part about my lengthy posts actually containing facts and logic and substance, and Kal’s containing none of the above.  But, Kal’s new, and may expand in the future.

But of course the point, that you apparently missed, is that why and how is Kal able to exceed the 4000 world limit?  Is he a computer nerd and knows how to implant certain code to fool ITT into thinking that his creative essays contain less than that?  Is he actually part of the ITT IT staff and has special privileges?

These are the questions that I pose!!!!!!!! ?????

———————-vv————————

“Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 truth “movement” into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense.  You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment if you simply run your revelation du jour through the following before opening your mouth at that party, or sending that email to that friend who assumes you are still sane.” — Natalie

9/11 myths
Debunking 911
Peer reviewed papers debunking the “truth” movement.
(using Steven E. Jones’ standard for peer review)      ;-)

Posted by Natalie on Aug 3, 2006 at 8:18 PM

Thankyou Batgirl

Now that is why the Batgirl is the leader of your team SCorpse.  You are not Sherlock but a confused Dr Watson.  Though indeed the flattery and Oz flag would admittedly lend doubt, and if Kal doesn’t return to confirm himself the rabbit will be more inclined to think it is Scorpy being sneaky.  Maybe he has hooked up with an Aussie dittohead and they are going to attempt some guerilla trick to discredit the Bun?

Nat you are being disingenuous again.  Kal stated quite clearly if you read that he is not joining any discussion.  He very politely and simply, said in black and white that he doesn’t post and that he rarely even bothers reading comments.  He seems to have been surprised by the poor quality article at the start and the comments caught his eye for a change.  The rest follows naturally enough.  He is about the sixth or seventh soul to pass this way and say something similar.  It is hardly surprising most of them pat the wee rabbit on the head in passing.  Bunny rabbits have that effect on people.

Indeed Kal may become so enamoured with the joys of engaging in debate with such fascinating and challenging subjects as a pair of trolls like you and Scorp, that he may post more, but at this point the guy came by said hello and thanks and then went away with the stated intention of doing no more.

You are not seriously going to be able to debate with anybody who has read all the foregoing thread Nat.  The only chance you have of being taken seriously is if someone pops in at the end of the thead, having failed to read or check the sources given if in doubt and reading them.  A hatchling, a small newborn chicken may look up to you, and say “momma?”  and you can look down to them and show them all your cleverness and they might think you have something for a while.  Until they get a bit older, a bit more informed, and then they too will move on, realising you had no truth to give, just a faith based argument with no substantiating anything.  Theories, especially when they fly in the face of other theories or even facts, are only food for faith.

Your little chickens will starve if you only feed them on faith, you need to give them facts to eat Nat.  Or they get sick and are unable to stand up by themselves.  As soon as they get a taste for facts they will be off and won’t want anything different thereafter.  It is not counted as the sort of facts we want, that somebody has proposed a theory.  That they have done so may be a fact, but the theory is not a fact.

The theory of gravity says things fall down.  It is a fact that things fall down.  Either can exist without the other, bit while the theory doesn’t make any difference to reality, the reality can make or break the theory with 100% certainty.

Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 truth “movement” into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense.

It is very good that you admit we are the truth movement. Since you are opposed to our even questioning what does that make you?

I would have thought that the truckloads of information herewith provided would qualify as fact checking.  Common sense is looking at the facts and applying them to reality.  Personal faith based beliefs that your government would not pull off such a historically familiar action when all evidence points that way is disturbingly devoid of common sense .

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 3, 2006 at 8:22 PM

Nat your lengthy posts don’t contain facts unless they are irrelevant, and logic is not a thing you understand even.

Perhaps you would care to list three facts which support the official lies?

Your source stating Armadinejad speaks of destroying Israel is typical of your failure to understand facts and how they might be established.  An AP article saying he said this, is not the last word.  It is not quoting the man, it is paraphrasing him and anyone who has any clues knows that such an AP story is almost certainly not accurate since they also made claims he said as much months ago when he did no such thing.  Rabbit will find the actual speech and I predict it will be doing no such thing.  However!

Israel is currently engaged on massive holocaust against Iran’s Lebanese cousins, and Israeli leaders have stated their now all but complete intention, to “bomb Lebanon into the stone age.” 

Even if Armadinejad spoke such words of Israel, the aggressor as usual, what weight do they carry next to the fourth largest military in the world, with 400 nuclear weapons, a thousand tanks, hundreds of fighter bombers? Doesn’t it seem a bit more threatening for a country with the means to do such a thing than a much weaker country who by the way has not ever attacked any of its neaighbors anyway?

As usual Nat you do not actually have any logic, or sense of balance.

Here for example is the words of Ali Khamene’i, the Islamic Republic of Iran’s supreme leader, in December 2000. 

“Iran’s stance has always been clear on this ugly phenomenon [i.e., Israel]. We have repeatedly said that this cancerous tumor of a state should be removed from the region.”

Now considering the history of Israel with the Mid East since the artifical state was created sixty years ago, it is not surprising this is their feelings.  You always ignore the sime fact that Israel was always inhabited by the Palestinians, at least for 2700 years, and they were displaced when the artifical state of Israel was forced down over the region and formed via a bloodbath of Zionist terror and assasinations of many thousands of innocents.  The history ever since has been one of intensive Israeli aggression and inflexibility.  It is that rare and grim political artifact, an Apartheid state.  Such entities do not own moral highground as a rule by the way.  Therefore it isn’t suprising that many in the Mid East if not all would like to see Israel not there.  But to take such words as those I just quoted and call that a threat to destroy Israel is most disengenuous.  Even though twisted hypocritical souls do exactly that. 

By the way the quote above was not accurately portrayed even, it comes from a Daniel Pipes speech and is not likely to be a 100% accurate translation even.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 3, 2006 at 8:26 PM

Has anyone gotten to this yet?

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/080206Q.shtml

Here’s my review:

This is the worst and most phony piece of drama queen hype I have ever read in my life. Every bit of this contrived harlequin romance of supreme military failure drips with B-grade script devices.

Had the author not included the ages of all but the strangely anonymous voices (like someone walked in off the street and picked up a direct line to GONADS) I might have thought they were twelve year olds at play.

The answer to the article is “Cut the chatter, and stick to protocol. Copy that?”

Apparently, NEADS (or, as I like to call them—-GONADS) has such old scopes that they can’t always read paints on them. They do, however, have a huge screen on a wall in front of the scopes on which they can see their area of coverage OR CNN. Is that not just skippy?

I worked with Korean vintage radar in a mobile radar unit in the eighties and they worked fine, even though they got knocked around a bit. That unit was scheduled to be upgraded shortly after I left. What the hell was GONADS using? Did they get my old equipment at a yard sale, or what?

If you can stomach the reading, you might get some good laughs. It sounds sometimes like they needed to send someone out to put some foil on the rabbit ears (not your ears, Rabbit). And hearing a supposed radar operator tell a fighter pilot in the air something like how many miles south of the White House an unidentified, unconfirmed, and sometimes unseen suspected hijacked aircraft was is GUFFAW. Ever notice those mile markers in the sky? Didn’t think so.

And did you realize that there are sometimes more than 3,000 commercial aircraft flying over the United States? Ever look up and notice how crowded the sky was? I mean the congestion is getting impossible for the FAA and NORAD put together to handle. What to do? What to do? It’s so haaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd.

Most of the crew apparently needed Midol.

And no one knew what the protocol was. It had just come up. No one in charge of the defense of the Northeastern quadrant of the United States knew what to do when there were aircraft piloted by people with hostile intent in their area of responsibility.  There was a protocol. Why didn’t they know what it was? Why wasn’t it drilled into their heads the way procedures are drilled into everyone’s heads in the military so that they could do their jobs precisely and in a timely manner in their sleep instead of being totally incompetent boobs?

This article is so self-contradictory, convoluted, and unbelievably campy that I have to wonder if this guy is a chump or a shill.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 3, 2006 at 8:52 PM

Thanks for the NORAD tapes story, wiley.  Upon reading through it, I couldn’t help but recall something I said last Christmas:

” No, wiley, I don’t find it funny that people were murdered on 9/11.  I do find it a little funny that people seem to think that our defensive agencies can magically pick out an aircraft with its transponder off amidst a busy matrix of early morning east coast traffic, and in the case of Flt. 11, that they’d instantly and intuitively know it was destined to become a weapon of war.  It seems not far removed from believing in the ability of reindeer to fly.”

From the NORAD article:

If nothing else, it might have given the public a more realistic sense of the limitations, particularly in the face of suicide terrorism, of what is, without doubt, the most powerful military in the world.”

You may be able to make a case about unpreparedness, or even possibly a little bit of incompetence, although I don’t get that sense from the article, but certainly the article does nothing to buoy “stand down” theories, and indeed makes them laughable and rather disgusting.

“Five years after the attack, the controversy around United 93 clearly eats at Arnold, Marr, Nasypany, and several other military people I spoke with, who resent both conspiracy theories that accuse them of shooting the flight down and the 9/11 commission’s conclusion that they were chasing ghosts and never stood a chance of intercepting any of the real hijackings. “I don’t know about time lines and stuff like that,” Nasypany, who is now a lieutenant colonel, said in one of our last conversations. “I knew where 93 was. I don’t care what [the commission says]. I mean, I care, but - I made that assessment to put my fighters over Washington. Ninety-three was on its way in. I knew there was another one out there. I knew there was somebody else coming in - whatever you want to call it. And I knew what I was going to have to end up doing.” When you listen to the tapes, it couldn’t feel more horrendously true.

10:15:30POWELL: Southeast just called. There’s another possible hijack in our area.  NASYPANY: All right. Fuck!

Thanks for the info, wiley. 

The original article, complete with audio files.

Good men and women trying their best given their tools and training to deal with what a bunch of evil brainwashed animals just insisted on carrying out that day.  Let’s not mis-direct our anger, shall we?

Posted by Natalie on Aug 3, 2006 at 10:12 PM

Well it seems that we’ve finally gotten a legitimate scientific poll taken that actually asks specific questions about bombs in buildings and missiles in pentagons.
           
A nationwide poll of 1010 adults came back with the predictable result—some one third or slightly more of Americans think that the government had a hand in 9/11 or intentionally didn’t act to prevent it.

But the more interesting part, to those of us debating bombs and missiles, is that far fewer believe in these specific phenomenon. 

The collapse if the twin towers in New York was aided by explosives secretly planted in the two buildings.

Very likely 6%
Somewhat likely 10%
Unlikely 77%
Don’t know 6%
Other response 1%

So all the efforts of the truth movement so far have succeeded in firmly convincing only 6%.  Only 10% think it’s possible.  Perhaps this is why we’ve never seen the “truth” movement commission a poll that asks these specific questions.

The Pentagon was not struck by an airliner captured by terrorists but, instead was hit by a cruise missle fired by the U.S. military.

Wow.  Those are even lower numbers.  Well, that <i>was pretty silly about the missile, anyway, you say.

Another interesting question asked in the poll was this:

The federal government is withholding proof of the existence of intelligent life from others planets?

Very likely 16%
Somewhat likely 22%
Unlikely 54%
Don’t know 8%

More than twice as many people believe in UFOs than they do in either bombs or missiles.  Hmmm…...

And then there’s this:

The poll found that a majority of young adults give at least some credence to a 9/11 conspiracy compared to less than a fourth of people 65 or older. Members of racial and ethnic minorities, people with only a high school education and Democrats were especially likely to suspect federal involvement in 9/11.

Kinda makes ya go Hmmm, doesn’t it?

Posted by Natalie on Aug 3, 2006 at 10:17 PM

Now here’s something we hope you’ll really like. — Rocket J. Squirrel

Posted by Natalie on Aug 3, 2006 at 10:28 PM

“It is very good that you admit we are the truth movement. Since you are opposed to our even questioning what does that make you?”

Yes, I misplaced the quotes, “Rabbit”.  It should have read “truth” movement, because I find literally no truth, but I have to admit you are moving.  Just where?, is the question.

I’m not so much opposed to your questions, it’s your answers I have a problem with.  Neither makes much sense, however.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 3, 2006 at 10:36 PM

Natalie a survey of 1000 people is statistically insignificant.  If it is nationwide as claimed, that would be fewer than twenty people in each state!  Amusingly because you produced it here is the opening paragraph. 

More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East, according to a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll.

It isn’t a scientific poll in the sense the Zogby polls from earlier were, but it doesn’t claim to be either. 

Now why would Syria or Iran feel justified in threatening to defend themselves agiants Israeli aggression? 

That is all they have ever threatened as far as threat of actions go.  At the same time might it not be unsurprising that with the sort of rhetoric backed up with actions comparable to the 1939 German Werhmacht that these same countries might wish Israel were somewhere else and even to dream of the day?

Just who is making threats, real live threats of action anyway?

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 3, 2006 at 10:39 PM

What doesn’t make sense about chemical studies which find traces of thermate residues?

Apart from the fact no explanation can be found for it in the fairy tale?

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 3, 2006 at 10:42 PM

Somehow I sensed that you would remember that, Natalie——the emotional appeal. How can I kick those poor, poor souls when they’re down? The same way I would kick a brain surgeon who showed up drunk and scrambled a patient’s brain. Boo-effing hoo. Who is the victim here? Clue: Not the f**k-ups.

There is nothing difficult about this concept once the scales of romanticism and cheezy denial are wiped from the eyes. The word is “responsibility”——look it up.

“If nothing else, it might have given the public a more realistic sense of the limitations, particularly in the face of suicide terrorism, of what is, without doubt, the most powerful military in the world.”

This should have made the public ask why our military and FAA combined are so inept, and how it is that “the most powerful military in the world” that cannot effectively guard it’s own airspace—-though it spends more on its military budget than all of the rest of the world combined—-finds “regime change” to be more important than firing all the useless rat bastards who “failed” on 9/11 and building an actual AIR DEFENSE with working equipment and trained staff that don’t do soap operas in a crisis. 

Seems to me that we have a yet more fundamental problem of not holding people with grave responsibllity accountable—-like Michael “let ‘em drown while I finish my lunch” Brown.  We don’t pay these people to wear the appropriate suit while they fail to carry out the mission for which they are given. They have grave RESPONSIBILITIES.

Oh, funny how in that article near the end, when it addressed all the “false alarms”  that were going on in the afternoon,  though the FAA had already grounded all commercial flights, there was no more mention of that exercise——that was way back up near the top.  Isn’t it funny how someone can write a three page article to disconnect the dots and create subterfuge with useless details, and what is supposed to be dramatic recordings that suddenly turn up five years after the fact in the possession of a hack television writer?

Yeah, right.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 3, 2006 at 11:09 PM

Seeing as how these Zyber Shildiers are crawling all over the net on most sites at the moment….where’s ITT’s? 

Are you franchising on this one Batgirl?

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 4, 2006 at 12:24 AM

Here is something you might like kaere flagermus..............

=It has finally happened. On Sunday evening, July 30th, and again on the evening of August 1st, C-Span broadcast a one and a half hour panel discussion and presentation hosted by Alex Jones of PrisonPlanet.com that took place in Los Angeles on June 25, 2006. The event broadcast was only a portion of the entire panel-style symposium and included such notables from the Internet “underground” as Webster G. Tarpley [George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography], physicist and professor Steven Jones, LT COL Bob Bowman, USAF [ret.], and professor James Fetzer, founder of the 9/11 Scholars for Truth organization.

The truth rises like a ball rolls down a hill.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 4, 2006 at 12:39 AM

“Are you franchising on this one Batgirl?”

OK, you’re an anti-semite.  We get it.  To each his own.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 4, 2006 at 12:46 AM

“Somehow I sensed that you would remember that, Natalie——the emotional appeal. How can I kick those poor, poor souls when they’re down?”

Yes, and I remember feeling these emotions also:

You seem to have some pretty harsh words for a lot of well-intentioned folks who did a pretty darn good job of directing thousands of airborne people to the ground in a very short time.  You seem to be unwilling to take extraordinary circumstances into account, and would have people acting like robots, even after seeing an airliner that was under their charge slam into the north tower of the WTC, killing all aboard and untold thousands within the building.

Do you have any criticism whatsoever for the 19 Muslim murderers who slit people’s throats, hijacked the planes, intentionally turned off the transponders and proceeded to transform their newly acquired mass of aluminum, kerosene and human flesh and bone into a guided missile?

Still no criticism whatsoever.  But presumably you don’t believe there were any hijackers to criticize.  Or do you?  Enquiring minds want to know.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 4, 2006 at 12:53 AM

I’ve worked in NORAD and on radar, Natalie. Save it for the chumps.

Do I have any criticism for the unidentified perpetrators? Of course. I have nothing but contempt for any and all murderers.

I also have contempt for inept bunglers who are supposed to be DEFENDERS. It’s abuse of power to be incompetent and not to have everyone’s “stories straight”, when one is commissioned with grave responsibilities. Just like I have harsh words for the drunk driver who kills a familiy and then gets slapped on the wrist because he’s well connected, I have harsh words for the institutions that FAILED TO DEFEND OUR AIRSPACE when it was their job TO DEFEND OUR AIRSPACE. 

I think of it as “having standards”. A little pride never hurts, does it, Natalie?  A little esprit de corps that says, “the greatest military in the history of the human race” is not just a bunch of emotional, incompetent boobs, who go daffy in a crisis.”

Trying to paint me as a heartless lover of evil, and Rabbit as an anti-semite. Tsk. Tsk.

You’re getting too predictable love. Freshen up.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 4, 2006 at 2:34 AM

This includes ominous news but a better perspective.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 4, 2006 at 2:37 AM

Natalie there are many Jews who are anti Zionist to the extent they won’t even recognise its right to exist. 

The Jews who founded and who are the controlling class of Israel are not semitic jews, they are Khazars, from Eastren Europe.  The Palestinians included jews who true semites though mostly they are semitic muslims.  The Ashkenazi controlled racist apartheid Jewsish state of Israel is not a representative of the semitic race, but its main tormentor.

And you talk of facts.

Rabbit is anti-Zionist but only on the basis of their evil actions. If they stop doing evil things I would not be anti Israel. It is nothing but a bad idea getting worse by the minute.  I don’t reasonably expect it to be packed up and moved off to Europe or America, though the argument for this being done is there.  No more does Iran, they and all Mid East countries have stated before today the conditions for full acceptance and peace from all of them was the UN resolution to return to pre 1967 borders.  If Israel can calm down and learn to live in peace with and not covet his neighbors land then I wish them a long and prosperous future.

Otherwise if they continue down the present path they will lose, they will be destroyed literally and pointing that out, is not wishing it to happen.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 4, 2006 at 2:53 AM

Some Zionist quotes for perspective on what Rabbit or Prime Minister Armadinejad might say about Israel.

“We must expel Arabs and take their places.”
—David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

—David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.  From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
—David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.”
—David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth’s Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

“This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.”
—Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

 
“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!”
—Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

“[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.”

—Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the ‘Beasts,”’ New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

“The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.”
—Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

“The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country.”
—Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

“The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It’s that simple.”
—Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

“(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.”
—Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

“Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”
—Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

“If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force….”
—Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

“I would have joined a terrorist organization.”
—Ehud Barak’s response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha’aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”

—Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours…Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
—Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

“Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.”

—Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Nice friends you’ve got Batgirl.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 4, 2006 at 3:11 AM

Natalie,

Give it up.  You can

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 4, 2006 at 6:06 AM

WTH

I beg your parden?

Will any of these alternative sources help you to face up to such a simple reality or is the denial too great?

Sydney Morning Herald

San Francisco Chronicle

Malaysia Sun

The Australian

Your kneejerk reaction to Rense ignores as usual the fact it is just a news nexus.

Watch it on ITV

Watch the captain Jacob’s denials, do they make you feel justified?  They good enough for you WTH?

Do you think the 4 dead UN observers were staged?  What about the bridges airports power stations are these staged too WTH?

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 4, 2006 at 7:08 AM

HI Lapin
Interesting speech by the rabbi——Orthodox versus the bloody Zionists.

Pretty good news-blackout on this one too—- Oil spill only affects 80 kilometers of coastline… which in normal times would merit a headline.

Israel has announced that if Tel Aviv is hit, they will begin targeting Lebanese infrastructure, map here.

I see from a poll reported in the telegraph that support for israeli actions pretty strong in the US, and that European polls show a huge majority against.

Those ITV reporters above seemed genuinely angry to me, but maybe WTH thinks they are terrorist-sympathisers, or something. 

Or the evil propagandist rabbit faked it all and planted it at ICH . 

BTW, lapin, Haaretz does have very good articles critical of the government, often far more so than is found in the US MSM. I can’t obviously vouch for this, original in hebrew, but is possible—-qana “mistakes”.

Ooh La , ich bin in deutschland, a bloody gain.

Posted by frog on Aug 4, 2006 at 10:12 AM

“I’ve worked in NORAD and on radar, Natalie. Save it for the chumps.

Do I have any criticism for the unidentified perpetrators? Of course. I have nothing but contempt for any and all murderers.”

Even a chump can translate this coded statement.  You don’t believe that the men who were identified by the FBI were indeed the ones who slaughtered 3000 people in the matter of a few hours.

In other words, you still haven’t criticized the hijackers.  You’re saying “whoever did it”.  Nice dodge.

I’m greatful that someone with such warped judgement and wrong-headed analysis didn’t go on to work in civialian air traffic control.

“Trying to paint me as a heartless lover of evil, and Rabbit as an anti-semite. Tsk. Tsk.”

No, I’m not saying you love evil, I’m saying you apparently don’t know how to identify it.  Rabbit paints a self-portrait just fine with no help from me.

<i>“Hmm, I checked out that erichufschmid.net link you provided a couple of posts above, Rabbit - and I must say I was a bit over-boggled by this one!  Don’t know who he is but he sounds like a Neo-Nazi ... for some reason, some people who hate Bush are - you’d think they’d be the best of pals!

Yes - all this about “White Trash, Black Trash and Brown Trash”.....what right has he got to call any group of people, or part of a nation, trash??
Nobody is trash: they are just people with fewer economic opportunities, is all.  If Hufschmid understood proper economic theories, ie the left-wing sort, he’d know that!
According to HIM, Australia could be founded on “trash”!!

Oh dear

Posted by Natalie on Aug 4, 2006 at 10:54 AM

Oh Natalie, Natalie, Natalie. Always the same tricks. What hijackers? The nineteen hijacker list is a lie that people like you perpetuate. It has little to do with what really happened, which hasn’t really been investigated as an attempt to find out exactly what happened and who was responsible.

“Dodge”. Funny. How about the emotional term “19 hijackers” that immediately brings up those made for tv mug shots of swarthy, shifty looking men that were found to be responsible and tried before the court of television viewers within days of the attack .

Oh, and you’re “grateful” I didn’t go into air traffic control. That’s funny Natalie. You have analyzed my ability to track air traffic by my posts. That’s quite a gift. You should work for the FAA.

Drama. Drama. Drama. Wait! I hear the bassoons!  Could it be that another plot is unfolding as we speak and unthinkable catastrophe will strike at any moment? Has anyone forgotten to fear out there? Don’t forget to fear, o.k.

If you want to sup at the tit of government spoon-fed media, and accept whatever is told you without question that is your choice, Natalie. Or did I get you wrong? Is there another way for a person to still be blathering about “nineteen hijackers” on four hijacked aircraft?

I don’t appreciate being lied to, and since I have an inherent distaste for drama queens, I can tell the difference between being fed emotional garbage meant to excite the lizard brain, and information that stimulates the frontal cortex.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 4, 2006 at 1:27 PM

Ok so let’s see…...there were no hijackers…..... so why in the world do you feign such a disciplinarian attitude toward NORAD/FAA?

Obviously, if there were no hijackers, that certainly points to an inside job.  If it was an inside job, obviously there would have been some effort to control NORAD and/or the ATCs.  Wouldn’t it make much more sense for you to be calling for them to be arrested as accessories to murder?

Surely you’re smart enough not to fall for this “hijackers still alive” hoax.

Surely you are.

Is being an ATC not a reasonable choice of career for someone coming out of the service with radar experience?  Is it not reasonable to be glad that someone who would fall for such an obvious hoax isn’t directing the planes I fly on?

Do the “scholars” for “truth” have any ATCs as members?
Do they have any airline pilots as members?
Do they have any NY firemen or any firemen as members?
Do they have any NY policemen as members?
Do they have any structural engineers as members?

No, no, no, no and no.

Does this raise any suspicion at all in your frontal cortex?

Posted by Natalie on Aug 4, 2006 at 2:20 PM

Rabbit,

If you Goggle

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 4, 2006 at 2:21 PM

Oh Natalie, that is so preschool. I am not even going to respond to that “oh so there were no highjackers”  taunt.

One question I have yet to see asked is—-Why didn’t the people who were running the exercise stop the exercise when it became clear that there was a real-time emergency in progress? The purpose of these exercises is not just to train, but to evaluate. The people running the exercises know exactly what is in the exercises, and should know when something not in an exercise occurs. That it would be appropriate to stop the exercise, and give all personel and all their attention to the genuine emergency, should be obvious, doncha think? Having the evaluators tell NEADS what was NOT in the game tape, and having that passed directly onto FAA would make sense, no?

I also find it hard to believe that NEADS and the FAA did not have a code word for “hijacking”.  Do you have a pat little answer for that Natalie? Either the Air Force has gone straight to hell in a hand-basket or this tape is bogus. Either way—-someone is lying and the truth goes begging still.

Why haven’t we heard from the people who ran the exercise? Why, with all these time stamps, do we not get the time that the exercise began, and the time it ended? And why did the exercise not end when the “confusion” over what was real and what was not began? That would end some confusion would it not? To stop the training tape? Perhaps Michael Bronner is working on behalf of “confusion”, wittingly or not.

And are we to believe that an exercise was running on real-time computers in the FAA at some of the world’s biggest and busiest airports? That’s sheer insanity that essentially turns all blips into potential chess pieces in a game, instead of commercial aircraft loaded with living, breathing human beings. What heartless beast is that, Natalie?

Dramatic elements work in advertizing and propoganda, but should not under any circumstance be the engine that drives our defense forces or air traffic control.

NEADS and NORAD are not supposed to be “confused” about what to do when what they were established to prevent occurs—-an attack—-a hostile intrusion in our airspace.

FAA should have the procedures for handling “hijacking” drilled into them, and should most certainly not be speculating about the intentions of a highjacker over an official communications line.  Either the whole article is dramatic tripe written for popular consumption or whoever is responsible for “the confusion” needs to be court-marshalled and our entire air defense system should be upgraded.

Enough with the lame excuses. Responsible adults with adult responsibility do not go film-noir during a crisis and start nattering into a headset.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 4, 2006 at 3:57 PM

You’re spot on WTH.

In a nutshell, if Hamas/Hezbos/Islamic Jihad/Martyrs Brigade/etc would lay down their weapons permanently and stop acquiring more, and maybe for good measure stop brainwashing their children from age two to hate Israel and later send them on suicide missions, there would be peace in the middle east immediatly and forever.

On the other hand, if Israel was to lay down its weapons and stop defending itself, there would be a bloodbath until all jews were dead.

If you don’t understand this, then you’re simply as deluded and as brainwashed as those kids.  It’s been proven time after time after time historically and empirically.

But what would we expect from people who believe in fairy tales like bombs in Trade Towers and missiles in Pentagons?

Posted by Natalie on Aug 4, 2006 at 4:06 PM

“Oh Natalie, that is so preschool. I am not even going to respond to that “oh so there were no highjackers” taunt.”

You’re not going to respond because you understand that if you did so, and were honest about your beliefs, that it would render the rest of your post rather irrational.  (You know deep down that no hijackers is ridiculous, but you’re afraid to admit it in front of your Internet buddies.)

You seem to think that it simply doesn’t matter that you don’t believe in hijackers.  You act like this little tidbit doesn’t make your finger waving at air defense anything more than a smokescreen.

Was it really NORAD’s job to protect the country from simultaneous multiple kamakazi attacks originating within?  Was this kind of extreme scenario really even on this organization’s mental radar screen, whether or not in hindsight it should have been?

Boston’s request for fighter jets is not as prescient as it might seem. Standard hijack protocol calls for fighters to be launched—scrambled—merely to establish a presence in the air. The pilots are trained to trail the hijacked plane at a distance of about five miles, out of sight, following it until, presumably, it lands. If necessary, they can show themselves, flying up close to establish visual contact, and, if the situation demands, maneuver to force the plane to land.

At this point, certainly, the notion of actually firing anything at a passenger jet hasn’t crossed anyone’s mind.

When I initially expressed doubt that NORAD or anyone could easily pick out individual planes with their transponders off amidst a flurry of early morning air traffic, I was only going on a gut feeling.  You, in all your wisdom and experience, disagreed.  But it would seem as though my instincts have been borne out by someone who has actually studied this situation in depth, and listened to dozens of hours of tapes:

At Otis Air National Guard Base, the pilots are in their jets, straining at the reins. (“When the horn goes off, it definitely gets your heart,” F-15 pilot Major Dan Nash later told me, thumping his chest with his hand.) But at NEADS, Nasypany’s “tracker techs” in the Surveillance section still can’t find American 11 on their scopes. As it turns out, this is just as the hijackers intended.

At this point in the morning, more than 3,000 jetliners are already in the air over the continental United States, and the Boston controller’s directions—35 miles north of Kennedy—doesn’t help the NEADS controllers at all.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 4, 2006 at 4:41 PM

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah Natalie. I don’t belive in hijackers? I’m embarrassed to say it in front of friends?  Guffaw.

Yes. NORAD’s and NEADS job is to protect our airspace. All this “unexpected, unthinkable, unbelievable” adjective fest is pure red herring. So they were having an exercise about just exactly this kind of event at the same time it happened, and no one “could imagine, or believe, or expect…”

All this hooey. If NORAD can’t handle that, then they should have their missiles taken away from them. There is nothing fantastic about an aircraft being used as a weapon. Think Kamikazee. Amazing how much 9/11 is compared to Pearl Harbor while airplanes being used as a weapon is “unthinkable”. Perhaps the higher echelons of the armed forces should be staffed with people who think better.

3,000 aircraft over the United States. That’s not a crowd, Natalie. It’s a big country. At big busy airports they have lots of scopes so air traffic controllers can be responsible for a manageable amount of traffic. Areas of coverage generally overlap. If the system were so fragile that four aircraft could throw it into a tizzy then the system was hardly adequate to the tasks of daily flight schedules.

And this transponder crap—-NEADS, as the article pointed out—-was accustomed to scenarios with Russian jets in their war games. Do you think a Russian jet would have a transponder to make identification easy?

Stop talking out your butt Natalie. It’s embarassing. This “needle in a haystack” thing is a cheap ploy. We’re supposed to have faith that our air traffic control and air defense system can handle 3,000 aircraft, but add four more—-three without their transponsders on—-and they collapse into a useless emotional heap?

Can we expect paramedics to rail at the horror at accident sites while the victims bleed? Can we expect the surgeon to curse and pace the floor when the victims roll in? Can we expect the guys in NORAD to throw tantrums when confronted with the news of a possible attack?

Any good troop will wait til it’s over to emote and fall apart. I find it hard to believe that all these troops and FAA personnel at high traffic airports were as dimwitted, chatty, and ineffective as these “tapes” make them appear to be.

Would you rather believe that our air defense and commercial air safety relies on third-rate actors who talk about their feelings when they should be calling out coordinates? Would you rather believe that NEADS has such shoddy equipment that they couldn’t see all the planes in their area? Though a flock of birds can create a blip, we’re supposed to believe that turning off the transponder turns on some cloaking device?

Har.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 4, 2006 at 5:48 PM

WTH

Just listened to the BBC World service interviewing John Hagee (sp?) of the Christians United for Israel , the very rich and electorally powerful MOB who believe in the Rapture. 3500 of the mothas just met in Washington, with attending senators, GOP I guess ?

WOWEE !

Over the past year or so I’ve read a coupla articles about them, and they sound strongly, horribly,  like Dangerous Fundamentalists to me .

Maybe they even bring up their kids to start hating from the age of two ?

I can and do believe they exist outside my imagination, because it fits with many other reports over many years on the subject.

One bit of good news—the Argentines have just sentenced a torturing cop after overturning a previous “amnesty law”. Good.  Henry Kissinger is going to travel less and less. And less. And less.

You really have bought that bridge in Brooklyn about who started this Lebanese Destruction.

I DO respect your sceptical skills, because I share your deep suspicions on media manipulation, etc.

BUT, and this is a very big BUT, you start off with a big handicap in that you already have FAITH in the idea of Islamofascism, the War of Civilisations.

So you you look for evidence supporting this and disobey your very own rules in ignoring counter-evidence.

Bad scholarship, my friend.

Posted by frog on Aug 4, 2006 at 6:23 PM

WILEY
Nice to seeya.

What on earth was that Mineta guy talking about that these cats were not privy to ?

Strange.

I read the article, just once, and was struck by the floppy amateurishness . Jeeeeeesus Christ, they sound like a bunch of high-school kids playing at sodgers.

My old Gunner sarge would have killed us if we had been so sloppy, and that was far from ATC.

One interesting fact that came out was that the presidential order to shoot down came AFTER all was over.

That did not stop them playing on the agonising nature of their “decision”.

Pure Hollywood.

Posted by frog on Aug 4, 2006 at 6:47 PM

Oh, yes. I’m thinking that this is the limited hang-out, but for what indiscriminate yet-reading audience?  There is absolutely no reason, whatsoever, for any officer at NEADS not to know exactly what the protocol was.

And they were watching CNN on the screen at NEADS? Wha??!1! Christ! Could they not have picked up a phone and called NORAD or Ted Turner to get some satellite imagery to help them out? 45 minutes is a long, long, long time in the world of unidentified or hijacked aircraft,  and missiles.

These guys should have been seeing everything in slow motion.  So back to my question:

<i> Why haven

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 4, 2006 at 8:55 PM

Nice to see you too, Frog.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 4, 2006 at 8:55 PM

<i>“Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah Natalie. I don

Posted by Natalie on Aug 4, 2006 at 9:23 PM

The question is not whether or not I “believe” in hijackers—-like do I “believe” in God, Santa Claus, miracles, whatever? It’s not a metaphysical issue. Of course there are hijackers in the world——whenever someone is hijacking something, there is one or more hijackers. That doesn’t make the official story true.

You might as well have accused me of not believing in aircraft, and said that if I don’t believe the official story it’s because I’m some kind of mental case who doesn’t believe in aircraft.

Raise the bar, Natalie. So back to my question:

<i>Why haven

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 4, 2006 at 9:39 PM

<i>“The question is not whether or not I

Posted by Natalie on Aug 4, 2006 at 10:28 PM

Natalie, I’ve already made it quite clear that I do not believe the 19 hijacker story. Rabbit has provided plenty of evidence, and so has a whole slew of people. You keep challenging the most elementary things as if you were lying in wait for some clueless twit to drop at your feet.

Subpoenaed by the commission during its investigation, the recordings have never been played publicly beyond a handful of sound bites presented during the commission’s hearings. Last September, as part of my research for the film United 93, on which I was an associate producer, I requested copies from the Pentagon. I was played snippets, but told my chances of hearing the full recordings were nonexistent. So it was a surprise, to say the least, when a military public-affairs officer e-mailed me, a full seven months later, saying she’d been cleared, finally, to provide them.

  I would ultimately get three CDs with huge digital “wav file” recordings of the various channels in each section of the operations floor, 30-some hours of material in full, covering six and a half hours of real time. The first disc, which arrived by mail, was decorated with blue sky and fluffy white clouds and was labeled, in the playful Apple Chancery font, “Northeast Air Defense Sector - DAT Audio Files - 11 Sep 2001.”

Don’t you kind of wonder why this guy got these supposed copies of official recordings, and why they weren’t part of a White House press release?

I might add, that for the literate—-signing the Declaration of Independence was indeed an act that did not require a lot of coordination. Christ, they could have been up drinking all night and it still would not have required a lot of coordination.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 4, 2006 at 10:48 PM

Here’s some more cheese from that awful article:

08:37:52 BOSTON CENTER: Hi. Boston Center T.M.U. [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out. POWELL: Is this real-world or exercise? BOSTON CENTER: No, this is not an exercise, not a test. PLAY | STOP

Powell’s question - “Is this real-world or exercise?” - is heard nearly verbatim over and over on the tapes as troops funnel onto the ops floor and are briefed about the hijacking. Powell, like almost everyone in the room, first assumes the phone call is from the simulations team on hand to send “inputs” - simulated scenarios - into play for the day’s training exercise.

How many times must the question “Is it real-world or exercise” be asked?

Only the most strategically challenged and tactically clueless boob would say anything but ONE TIME. “Real-world” means real world. “Exercise” means a simulation. That’s why the terms “real-world” and “real-time” exist—-to distinguish between what is a genuine threat and what is the simulation of a threat, because there is a hell of a profound difference between an aircraft crashing in a video game and an aircraft crashing in real life. What kind of f**king idiot doesn’t understand the significance of this and would make excuses for the “confusion”?

That something so fundamental and basic could be missed by anyone on the crew, and even by the Commander who supposedly helped design the exercise, is beyond rational comprehension. There is no excuse. I find it hard to believe that these are transcripts from actual tapes.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 4, 2006 at 11:10 PM

“Natalie, I’ve already made it quite clear that I do not believe the 19 hijacker story. Rabbit has provided plenty of evidence, and so has a whole slew of people. You keep challenging the most elementary things as if you were lying in wait for some clueless twit to drop at your feet.”

Thanks for finally answering the question, kind of.  I would be interested in specifically what “evidence” caused you to believe this rather extraordinary, world shaking, conventional wisdom shattering theory.  And yes, a clueless twit has indeed dropped at my feet, and that twit is you, not only because you believe this fairy tale, but because you cite Rabbit as your info source.

Powell’s question—Is this real-world or exercise?—is heard nearly verbatim over and over on the tapes as troops funnel onto the ops floor and are briefed about the hijacking. Powell, like almost everyone in the room, first assumes the phone call is from the simulations team on hand to send “inputs” - simulated scenarios - into play for the day’s training exercise.

I think perhaps you are distorting just how much and how long people were asking: “Is this real world or exercise”?  I think it’s pretty understandable that multiple people coming onto the situation would need to be briefed on this fact, and it’s not clear how long of a time period this took.  It says “as troops funneled onto the ops floor”, not “during the entire ordeal”.  Your point may very well be overblown.

“Don’t you kind of wonder why this guy got these supposed copies of official recordings, and why they weren’t part of a White House press release?”

Why would the White House release tapes, in a press conference no less, that would not normally be made public, especially ones that would give comfort to America haters everywhere, as people were trying desperately but failing to keep up with their heros.  The guy was making a movie, he tried for a long time to get the full tapes, and the powers that be finally relented.  What is so to wonder about?  “Supposed copies”?  Skepticism is fine, but let’s be reasonable.  I hardly think the author or the goverment would turn out phoney tapes that could be easily contradicted by the very people on them.

“Here’s some more cheese from that awful article:”

You mean awful for the 9/11 “truth” movement.  Because the article makes clear that there was no stand-down order, and about the only case you can make about NORAD and the FAA is that they perhaps should have had better proceedures in place for a situation like 9/11.  Perhaps we all should have.  It makes clear what the limitations of the military / FAA were, and what they were and were not on guard for.  The good folks in charge that morning were simply caught off guard, as was the entire nation and the world.

All in all, I tend to put the lion’s share of blame on the hijackers, how silly of me.  But I guess if you don’t believe in hijackers, perhaps it’s understandable that you’re confused about who to blame.  I’m sorry.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 5, 2006 at 1:43 AM

WTH

Cognitive Dissonance is cognitive dissonance no matter how you dress it up.  The ambulances were targeted, the UN observers were killed, the babies and kiddies were blown up in Qana.  Nobody is denying it except you.  Even the Israelis no longer claim Hezbollah was anywhere near Qana.  They don’t deny shooting the ambulances, never did actually.  This kind of makes the independant branching off of speculation in order to maintain the illusion, you are doing by denying it a bit silly.  You need look no further than the Israelis themselves to realise the truth of their actions.  Sure they start with denial, then justification, then finally grudging admission with the caveat that its OK since its them and now they will have a full investigation.  Move along now folks nothing to see here.

WTH

The IDF shelled the UN observation post with flyovers fourteen times throughout the UN was making strenuous intercession with Israel and the US, in London, New York and in Israel as well as ON THE GROUND between the UN observers and the commandant of the IDF forces doing the shelling.  I don’t know where you are geting your information from but you are sadly misinformed if you think there is any conflicting stories.  Except the truth as evidenced by the witnesses, the UN and journalists on the spot, you see journalists can travel safely in Lebanon yet, if they can dodge Irsael Bombs and missiles.  The only othet story is the shifting stubborn denial of the guilty party, entirely predicatble.  Look once again your delusions have gotten you into the position of justifying or denying things which are being denounced as war crimes by the majority of the world.

Did you always have to defend torture, banned weapons, wholesale civilian slaughter and holocaust? Is this something you grew up accustomed to or is it a new development in your life by any chance?

The truth is out there WTH if you care to find it. 

Hezbollah offers to spare Israeli Civilans if Israel spares Lebanese civilians  Of course Israel can only answer one way to such a suggestion.  “Bring on more bombs and missiles, they must be weakening now.”

9/11 Symposium most popular C-Span Show.  This is the better four camera version than C-Span had.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 5, 2006 at 2:06 AM

Qana, revisited

——————————-vv—————————-

Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 “truth” movement into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense.  You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment if you simply run your revelation du jour through the following before opening your mouth at that party, or sending that email to that friend who still assumes you are sane.—- Natalie

9/11 myths
Debunking 911
Peer reviewed papers debunking the “truth” movement.
(using Steven E. Jones’ standard for peer review)  ;-)

Posted by Natalie on Aug 5, 2006 at 2:06 AM

Batgirl I looked at those links already and I think if that’s the best you’ve got, then please admit it.  They are easier for intelligent people to look at and see their essential poverty than for me to waste time pointing it out.  I would strongly suggest people look at them, since as usual the official story can only be shown to be backed by a limited, self perpetuating few with nothing but theories, faith to hold them up.

So long as people have given the Scholars for 9/11 truth site a good consideration, in its case all claims are simple, stated clearly and given clear precise reasoning behind them.,.  There is no speculation, or rhetoric.  No asking you to imagine this or that, just this is what we have, this is what it means, and either it will make sense or it won’t.  Unlike the official case which is theoretical and shifting all the time.  It has never been quanitifed, only increasingly hysterical attempts made by various individuals.  That these individuals are invariably directly in the employ of those whom appear to be prime suspects, doesn’t help them a bit, but can be ignored since they have no other grounds for claiming credibility either, IF YOU GO TO THE TROUBLE OF READING THEM.  I don’t much anymore.  I already understand the science and logistics of the WTC collapses and the other most important areas of contention.  Reading any more debunking crap would be like reading arguments by the flat earh society or by someone trying to claim gravity is occassionally different for certain buildings under certain circumstances.

Rabbit’s flagship against Batgirl’s three, will you pit those efforts against the single one?

Hi Wiley

I think this is lovely .

Natalie…You keep challenging the most elementary things as if you were lying in wait for some clueless twit to drop at your feet.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 5, 2006 at 2:33 AM

I see Natalie is doing the fruit loop again on the 19 magic arabs. 

Were there some arabs anywhere to do with planes?  Maybe, maybe not.  But if there were arabs on the planes they didn’t fly at least two of the planes, these were flown with a skill level far in excess of average.  No planes or fires caused any buildings to collapse, with or without arabs at the controls.

Hugo Chavez calls Israel Nazis and the USA Dracula. Venezuala recalls their ambassador to Israel in protest.  Now watch the morons spin this to mean Venezuala is dangerous and the bad guy.  The one calling for peace is somhow the bad one in all this, if you believe this F*ckwits!  You can never imagine just how such logically discordant thinking will pan out until one of them acts it out though.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 5, 2006 at 2:48 AM

Rabbit,

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 5, 2006 at 6:20 AM

WTH

Of course you are correct that corpses can be moved, films doctored, etc !

We have to judge on each case with that possibility in mind , and the more we know about how it has already been done, the better . .

I hope nobody needs reminding about the kuweiti babies dumped out of their incubators ?

I’m near certain one british TV team did this in bosnia in the 90’s , making a group of refugee men look as tho they were in a ‘concentration camp’.

First find some barbed wire , and then film through it ...

I googled ‘blair racak’ , which was the ‘massacre’ providing the justification for the c80days of NATO bombing of Yugoslavia’s bridges, factories, roads, trains, people,... and found this——on the racak massacre.

I remember clearly those forensic teams from around the world that went to yugoslavia to investigate the mass graves, and soon left,  in disgust.

I ALSO remember clearly the taliban offer to hand over bin Laden, on production of 911 proof. -— and the refusal to provide it !

Eminently reasonable, I thought. If there’s evidence pointing to bin Laden’s complicity, he should be turned over, and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. There’s plenty of evidence that he’s been behind terrorist attacks elsewhere - in Kosovo, in Macedonia, in Bosnia, in Chechnya, and in Dagestan, in those instances,  with the full knowledge of Washington. gowans

But as the days rolled by, the initial acceptance that Washington didn’t need to produce evidence started to fray at the edges, and some reporters and some current and could-be US allies began to ask questions. Are you going to show us the evidence that bin Laden’s involved? “Sure,” said Secretary of State Colin Powel. “Soon.” But that promise, was, a few days later, followed by a retraction. Powel couldn’t present the evidence, he explained.  Security concerns. Disclosing the evidence would compromise intelligence sources.

and so we come to the end of the article——

Proof? Who needs proof? Washington says, “Trust us. Trust Tony Blair. Have we ever lied?”

Have FAITH in your leaders, little children.

Posted by frog on Aug 5, 2006 at 8:05 AM

WTH

You and I have some similar reading on our shelves, such as “A man called Intrepid”, which has a lotta disinfo in it .

Here is another story on disinfo, the Cold War Cheney/Rummy spoof you still seem to believe in———-

In the last decade of the the cold war the Soviet Union - the Soviet state - was portrayed in the West as a vast chaotic shambles in which nothing worked, all was cheap and second rate; a state which never managed to produce a decent refrigerator, and whose chosen motor car was the Lada, built on the cast-off assembly line from the Fiat factories. Oddly enough though, in the midst of this ocean of mediocrity there were apparently exceptions - oases of excellence. Somehow the Soviet military - and the Soviet intelligence services - had escaped the bureaucratic nightmare which was the Soviet command economy and had become the exception which proved the rule: they were efficient and a deadly threat to us. This never seemed likely to me and I was delighted to read the book by the pseudonymous Soviet defector Viktor Suvorov, called The Liberators: inside the Soviet Army. In The Liberators, published in London in 1981, Suvorov portrayed the Soviet armed forces I expected to find: a brutal, inefficient, cynical, farcical army of conscripts, skiving off at the first opportunity and doing their best to stay permanently smashed on anything they could smoke, drink or inject - the mirror image of wider Soviet society, in short; and about as threatening to NATO as the girl guides.
Alas for Suvorov, his handlers in the British (?) state did not seem happy with this portrayal of the Soviet armed forces and the next year he published - or put his name to - another book whose main title was the subtitle of his previous book: Inside the Soviet Army. In the year since The Liberators Mr Suvorov had experienced a dramatic change of memory and his second book presented the efficient, menacing, Red Army required by Western intelligence and military budgets.

( and , of course, Cheney , Rummy, and sidekicks )

Suvorov subsequently wrote - or put his name to - a whole slew of books amplifying the Soviet menace in the 1980s. The range of his expertise was astonishing for a relatively junior officer….......... Flipping through some of those recently I was reminded of Derek Draper’s immortal response to the question, ‘Did you actually write your book New Labour’s First 100 Days?’ ‘Write it?’ said Draper. ‘I didn’t even read it.’

File the Suvorov episode away as a dramatic example of the way host countries manipulate defectors; and remember his name the next time you read about the new ‘threats’ facing NATO.

I have the original book.

More from Robin Ramsay-at The Lobster

-If patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, secrecy is the first refuge of the incompetent - or the illegal. Because this is the issue. The suspicion of people like me is that the security agencies want secrecy to cover their incompetence and their feather-bedding; and also to conceal activities they would rather we didn’t know - activities they shouldn’t be engaged in.

And pathological secrecy brings us right back to topic, to 911, the treatment of whistleblowers, the imaginative creation of new threats .

Posted by frog on Aug 5, 2006 at 8:57 AM

Frog,

Not to worry

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 5, 2006 at 9:27 AM

Bloody-minded old WTH !

have a good look at the stuff above…..

Posted by frog on Aug 5, 2006 at 9:42 AM

“I see Natalie is doing the fruit loop again on the 19 magic arabs.
Were there some arabs anywhere to do with planes?  Maybe, maybe not.  But if there were arabs on the planes they didn’t fly at least two of the planes, these were flown with a skill level far in excess of average.  No planes or fires caused any buildings to collapse, with or without arabs at the controls.”

Many people disagree with this line of thinking.  Some of them are actually pilots.

” Now watch the morons spin this to mean Venezuala is dangerous and the bad guy.  The one calling for peace is somhow the bad one in all this….”

But he also said this:  “Let’s save the human race, let’s finish off the U.S. empire,” Chavez said. “This (task) must be assumed with strength by the majority of the peoples of the world.”

All he wants is peace.  He & Jimmy C.

——————————-vv—————————-

Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 “truth” movement into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense.  You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment if you simply run your revelation du jour through the following before opening your mouth at that party, or sending that email to that friend who still assumes you are sane.—- Natalie

9/11 myths
Debunking 911
Peer reviewed papers debunking the “truth” movement.
(using Steven E. Jones’ standard for peer review)  ;-)

16% of people believe in space aliens.  6% believe in thermate.

(most of these people don’t have more than a high school education and/or live in trailer parks)  (not that there’s anything wrong with that—I don’t, and I used to!)

Not a single institute of Structural, Civil, Fire and Safety or Demolition Engineers on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.  Not a single institute of Architects on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.  Not a single institute of Engineers in any field on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 5, 2006 at 10:36 AM

Oh good gawd Natalie. I suspect you’re intentionally tiring. Whatever you get out of making excuses for failure is your business, I suppose. Perhaps it just doesn’t fit into your single minded pursuit of denial that 9/11 was anything other than an Arab miracle so “unthinkable” that the world’s greatest military couldn’t think while it happened.

Tell me Natalie, do you understand the difference between “responsibility” and “blame”? Were nineteen Arab hijackers responsible for the defense of our airspace?

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 5, 2006 at 1:59 PM

HECK

Durbin has said as much on local efforts to restore passenger rail service to this region. Three plans are on the table. Leaders and the community need to decide which one to get behind, then work for it. Squabbling only allows the people with the ability to make things happen to dither, delay and finally decide they will support projects that are promoted by communities that have their acts together.

The post office victory illustrates what can happen when we do.

Something that sounds good from your local one,—- my sort of activities—- but I thought the international coverage extremely biased.

I wonder if any, or all,  of the projects are for lightweight rail ?

Energy-savings and innovations so much more fun and interesting than yet more stupid bloody wars , and they can provide much-needed useful local employment. .

HAGEE & Co—I’m sure your family were a decent bunch, but times do change, and what was once pretty innocent can be harnessed otherwise .  The Rev Moon is not poor like us, and seems to be well-surrounded with Congresspeople ?

Natty—- the sad global consensus is that your country is run by dangerous madmen , so though I’m not hero-worshipping Chavez,  he is speaking for most of us.  Actually, you know, he’s not calling for all-out war , just recommending to you guys to stop what is being done in your names .

Same problem here with the Blair criminal.

Posted by frog on Aug 5, 2006 at 3:51 PM

Frog -

The quote relating to Suvarov has a certain validity, and has ongoing geopolitical repercussions to this day.  It was the American intelligence services and the State Department that portrayed the Soviet military as ten feet tall and fearsome.  This is the nature of a bureaucracy; if the bureaucracy’s foes were not competent, what was the need to maintain a large bureaucracy? 

Additionally, the drudges in both the CIA and at State were graduates of the left-wind academy that came to prominence during and after Vietnam, and who had ambivalent attitudes concerning American values and virtues.  Drudges can and will control a bureaucracy and a country if they are allowed to do so.

Fortunately, President Reagan had a superb understanding of geopolitics and economics, and could see through the Soviet posturing.  President Reagan, virtually alone and in defiance of his own diplomatic and intelligence services, realized that the SU was physically and morally bankrupt, and then presented the SU with impossible contradictory political and military demands; as a result, the corrupt and inefficient communist system collapsed.

Unfortunately, the CIA and State drudges continued in office, to work their incompetent mischief, with a new primary foe; not the communists, but the Conservatives who destroyed communism, while ignoring the rising threat of Muslim terrorism.  This, of course, resulted in the myriad intelligence failures during and just after the Clinton Administration.

In absolute terms, socialism has probably killed more innocent people, all in the Twentieth Century, but militant Islamists run a close second over the last fourteen hundred years.  And the Islamists are still active, while communism is as dead as Stalin. 

So, we are blessed to have President Bush, who understands the threat and weaknesses of militant Islamists, just as President Reagan understood the threat and weaknesses of militant communists.  And the intelligence services and the State Department drudges continue in muddled opposition to the elected authorities in the USA. 

But President Bush has initiated changes to the leadership, the personnel, and the policies of the State Department and the intelligence services, which will bring the Executive Branch into focus and competence in dealing with world problems and situations. 

As ever, totalitarians, whether socialist or Jihadist, are corrupt and inefficient, and can be beaten, even with the leftist’s support of terrorist states.

You may rejoice that this is so, because France is as incompetent, if not as lethal, as the Soviet Union, and somebody has to make correct decisions in the world.  That somebody is the United States of America.

Posted by scorp on Aug 5, 2006 at 4:36 PM

Nineteen Arab hijackers?  Now you’ve got the attention of my lizard brain.  Could it be from that statement that you’re starting to accept their reality?

ww, it’s very hard for me to understand exactly what you’re trying to say.  Yes, I understand that it was technically NORAD’s responsibility to defend our airspace, but I also understand that the 19 Arab hijackers are to blame for murdering 3000 Americans, and felt that their only responsibility was to Allah.  Do you understand this, or are you still in denial of their very existence?  (Hmmmm….lefties normally hate religious fundamentalists, and Jim never has a second cup at home)

Is it really fair to say that NORAD had the specific responsibility, or even the ability to track down, determine guilt, and proceed to shoot down multiple nearly simultaneously hijacked planes that originated within our borders, especially when their major focus was outside, not inside the country?  Protocols in place before 9/11 put the actual shoot-down of a hijacked plane way down at the bottom of the list of action to be taken, and they apparently didn’t actually receive the go ahead for such until it was much too late.  You might be able to find some blame for that delay elsewhere, but not at NORAD.  Even at the FAA, shooting down a plane was not on anyone’s radar, pardon the pun.

A former senior executive at the F.A.A., speaking to me on the condition that I not identify him by name, tried to explain. “Our whole procedures prior to 9/11 were that you turned everything [regarding a hijacking] over to the F.B.I.,” he said, reiterating that hijackers had never actually flown airplanes; it was expected that they’d land and make demands. “There were absolutely no shootdown protocols at all. The F.A.A. had nothing to do with whether they were going to shoot anybody down. We had no protocols or rules of engagement.”

I’m not seeing a case for negligence or incompetence or criminality here.  What I am seeing is:

A NORAD that had insufficient out-dated equipment.

A NORAD that had it’s resources (bases, aircraft) cut way back since the end of the cold war.

A NORAD that had grown a little complacent since their heyday during the cold war.

A NORAD that was primarily tasked with looking beyond our borders for threats, not within.

A NORAD that wasn’t getting prompt and accurate enough information from civilian air traffic control

The world’s greatest military is great, but they’re not superhuman.  But they thought plenty, and to say they “couldn’t think” is an extremely unfair and inaccurate characterization.  It would be refreshing if you could take a tiny fraction of your disdain for people who were earnestly trying to protect you that morning, and direct it toward the hijackers, who were trying their best to kill you.  And BTW, the “Arab miracle” petered out rather infamously on board flight 93.

Have you seen the movie yet?

Posted by Natalie on Aug 5, 2006 at 4:36 PM

scorp, great stuff.  You illustrate beautifully my earlier explanations of why I became a Republican.

After all, Reagan himself was once a Democrat.  He was hated and despised by all the usual suspects while he was in office, but today he is near or at the top of the list of the American people’s most respected Presidents.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 5, 2006 at 4:49 PM

Ok Scorp.

So Rummy and Cheney were Dimocrats in the 1980s. I just did not know that.

Apologies.

Posted by frog on Aug 5, 2006 at 5:06 PM

I know that truthies love videos, so I thought they might enjoy this one.

I would suggest watching it full screen, for maximum effect.  (or whatever’s clearer, I guess, the damn thing’s kinda fuzzy for reading text)

(warning…graphic images and coarse language)

Posted by Natalie on Aug 5, 2006 at 5:16 PM

A NORAD that had insufficient out-dated equipment.

A NORAD that had it

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 5, 2006 at 6:12 PM

“The real story is actually better than the one we told,” a NORAD general admitted to 9/11-commission staffers when confronted with evidence from the tapes that contradicted his original testimony.

Hmmm. So this is supposed to be acceptable? The “real story” is better than the lies they told when they were not under oath? Keeping in mind that Snow White and the Seven Dwarves is a real story, I must say I have zero faith in our military leaders. Being coy isn’t a quality befitting an officer and a leader who has literally held the fate of the earth in his hands.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 5, 2006 at 6:24 PM

If you think that competence is too much for the military——if you believe that it takes superhuman effort to handle an unscheduled emergency, Natalie, then you might want to consider becoming very active in the cause of Nuclear Disarmament. Low standards and nuclear arsenals are a terrible combination. Anyone with a double digit IQ should be able to see this.

The movie? Give me a break. No one KNOWS what happened on flight 93 but the people who made it happen and the people who were there.

What is it that makes people so weak that they would prefer contrived heroic narratives of the let’s-feel-good-about-ourselves variety than the truth or the admission that they do not know the truth, and the recognition that the truth hasn’t really been sought (partially because so many people are so weak that they would rather be flattered with feel-good-narratives)?

A quick glance through a local newspaper will demonstrate that Americans aren’t so bound in brotherly love that they would stop driving carelessly on behalf of their fellow Americans,  or stop taking guns to school.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 5, 2006 at 9:39 PM

Frog, Rummy is notorious for exaggerating the Soviet Threat. 

http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/4/vest-j.html

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 5, 2006 at 9:44 PM

Israeli and Palestinian Sources Concur: Israel Made War Inevitable
 
The Omega Institute (OI), which works closely with the Institute for Policy Research for Development (IPRD), has learned from Israeli and Palestinian sources that just prior to the current crisis, senior Hamas leaders were in active dialogue with Israeli religious leaders in a round of bilateral peace negotiations. Israeli negotiators included Rabbi Menachem Froman, former deputy leader and co-founder of the Israeli Settler movement Gush Khatif; Rabbi David Bigman, head of the liberal religious Kibbutz movement Yeshiva at Ma?ale Gilboa; and Yitzhak Frankenthal, founder of the Arik Institute. Ongoing negotiations had resulted in a breakthrough peace ?understanding?, which was to be announced at a press conference in Jerusalem to mark the launching of an extraordinary peace initiative. Israeli Prime Minister Olmert had been briefed extensively about the initiative by Frankenthal. Also due to attend the conference were Khaled Abu Arafa, the Palestinian Cabinet Minister for Jerusalem, Sheikh Muhamed Abu Tir, senior Hamas Member of the Palestinian Parliament, and other senior Palestinian delegates.
 
The meeting was to announce a joint Israeli-Palestinian call for the release of Corporal Gilad Shalit who had been abducted by Hamas in Gaza, along with proposals for the beginning of the release of all Palestinian prisoners. These measures were to precipitate unprecedented new peace negotiations on a framework peace agreement, drawn on the 1967 borders. The presence of Palestinian Cabinet Officers and senior Israeli religious leaders in contact with the Prime Minster was to underline the seriousness of this peace proposal on both sides.
 
Just hours before the meeting was due to start, the Israeli Shin Bet internal Security Service arrested Abu Tir and Abu Arafa and warned them not to attend the meeting, under threats of detention. The meeting, which offered a major opportunity to obtain Shalit?s release and launch a new framework for peace, was thrown into disarray. The next day, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) invaded Gaza, and the day after both Abu Tir and Abu Arafa were abducted by Israeli forces, along with a third of the Palestinian Cabinet, provoking a predictable escalation of violence.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 5, 2006 at 10:34 PM

WTH

Are we to take it that you do not believe that Israel targeted with missiles and strafed two Red Cross ambulances?

Reading your posts above leaves Rabbit in doubt as to whether or not you even believe Israel has actually killed more than 500 civilians or indeed 4 UN observers?

The UN say the base was shelled 14 times despite numerous protests, and that Irsael was ignoring their demands to cease fire when Israel then bombed the UN post.  But you WTH seem to consider this not convicing somehow is this how it is old boy?  You think that the rabbit has made this up or used some unreliable source to find this out?  It makes no difference to the mentally challenged WTH that the reporters on the ground, the UN itself and all MSM reports which have reported the events directly concur, you still are prepared to somehow ignore or minimise that in your wasted head? 

Exactly what evidence is it which is supposed to link these alleged Muslim Hijackers to 9/11 again?

Rabbit seems to have forgotten the huge volume of evidential reporting which led to this belief in Islamic Fundamentalism, so much more convincing it obviously was than the evidence of Israeli massacres.

What exactly about Israeli doctrine, history or even their present statements is hard to understand?  They don’t wish peace, they want everything, and they despise everyone.  This is all there is. You have now become so completely enslaved to your mental delusions, that you are defending war crimes of the most extreme kind.  You are defending torture, total surveillance society, the slaughter of civilians any and all weapons, chemical, nuclear and biological, all these are being employed.  You have not defended biological weapons yet WTH, but that is only because you have not yet been made aware of the use of Biological weapons which are being deployed by Israel.  They have long since stated their intentions of using Biological weapons, this is no secret.  You probably know very little about your chosen allegiance in this respect.

You are at this time defending the exact same crimes which made Nazi Germany into such a shining example of comparison.  You are doing it and as is the custom you are simultaneously accusing your victims of being the true monsters.  You also ascribe the real blame and violent intentions to people like us who are in fact merely speaking against the violence and for peace.  That’s how it is on the ground.  You are the bad guy, and there aint no denying it.

As soon as the news finally filters through your blinkers and the use of biological weapons by the USA and Israel becomes news to you, and you can no longer pretend it isn’t true, you will be in the position of finally, admitting you were wrong, and changing sides, way too late, or, and I guess it will be this latter, you will then be in the position of defending the use of biological weapons as well as virtually every other atrocity known to man.

Let’s see, what have you had to justify so far?

Kidnapping! Making war on peaceful soverign nations!
Torture of captured combatants! 
Torture of non combatants! 
Secret detention of foreign as well as American citizens! 
Detention without trial! 
Illegal weapons of mass and indiscriminate destruction! 
Chemical weapons! 
Nuclear Weapons! 
Rape of civilians and Rape of even children! 
Destruction of civilian infrastructure including transport, electricity, water, sewerage and food production! 
Destruction of some of the holiest and most historically significant cities and artifacts of Christianity and Islam!
TARGETING PEOPLE FOR RELIGIOUS OR RACIAL REASONS ONLY!

Is there anything at all you will not swallow and regurgitate like a buzzard feeding it’s young?

Just as with the ambulances, (by the way they have fired upon many more ambulances than just the two to which I am reffering here), the UN observers, the civilians the babies, sooner or later they will all become known to you despite your feeble efforts to ride roughshod over unpalatable reality, and then I know you will still be defending these things even as you deny them now.  Because you don’t have the guts to face up to reality.

You are a cringing coward!  A pathetic denialist in flight from reality. 

Next to the world of evidence you are ignoring, without more than a handful of spurious claims by some huckster politicians you are prepared to orient your whole belief system which forces you to defend all that filth I just listed.  On the basis of disputed claims by some of the most dim bulbs who ever rose up within American politics, you are convinced in the threat of something which you know nothing about?  Like Bush, you probably didn’t know ther were two main sects of Islam before the inital attack on Iraq, like Bush you probably didn’t know Iraq was the furthest thing from an Islamic state in the middle east. 

The CIA said there were no WMDs in Iraq, and so did the UN.  But Shrub knew better, and you believe him to this day.  The FBI says they have no evidence to link Osama Bin Laden to 9/11, but Cheney said it was so, and you believe him to this day.    Your morals and convictions are more easily bought than a packet of crisps so long as they feed the feeble stereotypes in your head.

You still know next to nothing, but your head is all filled up with a load of rubbish.  All manner of imaginings and third hand quotes from or about a religion which is ten times closer to Christianity than Judaism happens to be.  You spout off about Islamofacism yet all you have to show for sources are Judeo Christian Fundamentalist fascists.

I find your posing on about being informed to be a lot of hogwash.  You’ve filled your head with small men’s opinions, and rather than learn about anything directly you’ve sat on your couch and picked up volumes written by bigots and decided that makes you learned.

What good to you if it was all just a lot of crap? So some nut jobs tell you Muslims hate you and want to kill you, you believe it no problem.  Despite the fact you don’t have a single serious idea about what any Muslim of consequence ever said about the matter.

At the same time I tell you that the state religion of Israel states very clearly that you are untermenschen, your children are animals, and that no deal or bargain they ever made with you has to be honoured.  These people have a policy which is not only religous, but it is also their official military policy, called Hagallah which means in essence, “SCORCHED EARTH”.  They have an actual policy of killing all civilians, including children, destroying their houses, crops and everything in between,.  They have a history of poisoning wells, which is the most unholy evil act anyone in the middle east can perform.  The Israelis, have posioned wells as a matter of course, and are known as well poioners as one of the less savoury of the swear words applied to them in the ME.  You are on the actual internet surrounded by all the information you could desire, yet you have no more idea of what Israel is for a brutal fascist nation beyond the made for Americans news.  What a babe in the woods.  No wonder these Zionists choose you clowns for their prime mark.  The upkeep is so cheap.  No expensive propaganda for you guys, the walmart brand is more than god enough, you’ll gobble it down like good little turkeys as if it was manna from heaven.

They tell each other and most of the world one thing and you Americans another, and everyone else can see you getting screwed by it.  You are not even being scraged in private, it is happening out here in front of the whole world to see.  YUK! 

You’ll even be so proud of yourselves you’ll go on the internet and argue your knowledge with people who actually get their news from research on the internet.  That sort of stupidity isn’t easy to come by. 

These are you chosen champions, WTH, look long and hard at these people, they are not your friend.  They see you as nothing more nor less than a cash cow, useful for as long as you provide them money and fight their wars for them.  Don’t take my word for it, the best people to tell you about anyone are the people themselves, and I have linked to the writings of Jews on the subject.  If you want to know about Jewish extremism, ask a Jew, then you might be safe from the stupid accusation of anti-semitism, the most mixed up curse in the world.  Like I said before the Jews are 92% not semites. The semites are best represented by the Palestinians.

You won’t find out the truth though because you are a fake.  You are not interested in the truth, you have convinced yourself you have it all, and no doubt the more that reality impinges upon your delusions the more you become stubborn and determined to learn nothing. The more effort it takes to maintain the delusions.

So you will deny that Islam is a peaceful religion with no more violence inherant than Christianity,  (which is still a lot), and a love a veneration for Jesus Christ and his mother.  This despite the fact that any MUSLIM will confirm this to you himself.

At the same time you will claim that Israel wih its apartheid Jewish law, is a peaceful state trying to defend itself, (despite owning the fourth biggest military in the world) and that they are a good and humane democray, your closest friends in the world.  This despite the fact that the Torah declares you and all goyim are animals for the use of Jews, that no promise made to you has any value and that in war they should kill everyone who is on the enemy side, men women and children and destroy everything they own.  This despite the fact that Israel is a historically avaricious state with designs on a very large portion of the Mid East all of which belongs to other people already. 

  But I guess someone has to be the blind ignorant followers of tyrants, we need someone to refer to one day when we speak of the weak fools who followed and the filthy lying mongrel propagandists (like Batgirl) who spruiked for the lies just to keep the sheeple in line.  It saddens me that people like you cannot see how ludicrous you appear to the informed majority.  The humiliation you would experience would be so just after all the annoyance informed people feel at your ignorant dribble.  Your laughable attempts to pretend to appear informed or thoughtful when we can prove you are cement minds in five minutes by raising anything which might clash with your delusions. 

You are on the wrong side of history WTH.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 5, 2006 at 11:38 PM

And you have confidence that Arabs would honor any peace agreement for any meaningful length of time because…..........?

1) they’ve never attacked Israel in the past
2) they have such a good track record of responding to olive branches
3) they are generally peaceful people, who never foment violence
4) there’s a first time for everything
5) I guess it’s not too likely

Posted by Natalie on Aug 5, 2006 at 11:40 PM

“how ludicrous you appear to the informed majority.”

Actually, WTH is in a quite comfortable majority, at least here in the good ol USA.  Could it be perhaps that you are the one who is misinformed?

When voters were asked if Israel was justified or unjustified in its actions in Lebanon, 67 percent believe Israel’s actions are justified, while only 21 percent believe they are unjustified. The vast majority of voters (68 versus 21 percent) understand that Israel is targeting Hezbollah strongholds and strategic areas as opposed to indiscriminate attacks.

We’re supposed to trust your judgement on who’s righteous in the middle east because…....?

1) I was right about controlled demolition
2) I was right about hijackers being alive
3) I’ve linked people to holocaust revisionist sites
4) I see your point

Posted by Natalie on Aug 6, 2006 at 1:19 AM

If you want to go on feeling so negatively about NORAD, wiley, then I guess you must.

I’m seeing, from reading a lot of other accounts and opinions out there, and also the Vanity Fair piece, that if anyone was possibly negligent in the whole thing, it was the FAA, for not reporting the hijackings quickly enough, and the airline itself, who added to the confusion by being unable or unwilling to confirm things.

NORAD did pretty much the best they could under the circumstances, with the tools they had.  I really didn’t have Clinton in mind, although since you mentioned him, there were eight long years there when technology/computers were really coming into their own, and Clinton’s priorities were certainly not building up the defense departments. Same with the FBI computers.  Same with the walls between the CIA and the FBI.  But I understand these things take a lot of time to change, unfortunately.

There’s plenty of blame to go around.  Everyone learned a lot of lessons on 9/11, and our air defense/control proceedures are much improved.  I say give the good guys a break, and focus the real blame where it belongs.  But that’s just me.  (and I suspect the vast majority of the public)

I’m afraid you’re gonna have to file FOI requests for the answers to your other questions about the exercises.  It doesn’t look to me like they were much of a factor after the initial short period of confusion.  It looks to me highly doubful that at least the first two planes could have been stopped, even with prompt reports from the FAA/airlines.

Maybe you’re right about all this.  I don’t think so, but maybe.  We’ll just have to agree to disagree, for now.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 6, 2006 at 1:59 AM

Nattyshill
RACIST post above? You seem to believe “Arabs are Untermenschen.”

A poll by the ”“"Israel Project”“”, but even that gives an overwhelming majority of ......51% ! 
Given this strong and stable support, a majority of American voters maintain support for Israel’s continuation of military operations against Hezbollah in Lebanon by a margin of 51 percent versus the 38 percent who say Israel should stop.

Posted by frog on Aug 6, 2006 at 2:03 AM

That’s right Batgirl

I’d trust any treaty signed by Arabs because they have not broken any.  It helps that they have a religion which respects all people and which doesn’t void all agreements with Goyim though also.

I’d trust nothing from the Israeli or US governments because they have both broken every treaty they ever entered into as far as history goes.

How dumb of you to raise such a personally devastating comparison Nat.

Now it seems even Israeli Pilots are baulking at firing on civilians.    They too are getting the picture they are being used to commit war crimes.

Your 67% is the usual 67% who are kneejerk in favour of any official spiel, but they are also by virtue of the misunderstandings you spouted, ill informed.

You see the actual statistics for civlian deaths in lebanon is still running at about 70% at the best figures even of the IDF.

Meanwhile the civilian casualties from Hezbollah’s efforts are less than 30%.  So those people you mention who believe Israel is targetting only Hezbollah are wrong, and their opinions are thus worthless!

The Israeli Airforce personell I refferred to above seem not to agree, either, isn’t that a surprise.  Actually I wasn’t talking about America only where we take it for granted that a bit more than half the population are idiots.  I was refferring the remainder of the world which is overwhelmingly opposed to Israel’s actions.  You really do think that you are the only people in the world don’t you?

The funny thing is that you are untermenshen to the Israelis too.  They’ll use you then caste you away like a used condom of course. 

The pathetic thing about these racial supremacists is how they are invariably genetically or mentally deformed themselvs.  You are the master race are you Batgirl? Dream on.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 6, 2006 at 2:06 AM

Nobody expects you to agree to anything Batgirl.  Do you think we post responses to a shill in the belief it will read or be educated?  We do it to counteract your lies and to annoy you.  You personally are just an apologist for war crimes, a propaganda shill, they pop up in every war. 

You are doomed to see your empire collapse and all your dreams be crushed and you’ll live out your last days in ignominious shame.  That’s just the way of it.  As far as your karma, your path to perdition goes, we are but the passing parade.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 6, 2006 at 2:20 AM

So their troops may be able to question, but the good little American enablers must not doubt for a moment.  Keep on coming with the bombs and cash you goy cattle. 

At least two Israeli fighter pilots have deliberately missed civilian targets in Lebanon as disquiet grows in the military about flawed intelligence, The Observer has learnt. Sources say the pilots were worried that targets had been wrongly identified as Hizbollah facilities.
Voices expressing concern over the armed forces’ failures are getting louder. One Israeli cabinet minister said last week: ‘We gave the army so much money. Why are we getting these results?’ Last week saw Hizbollah’s guerrilla force, dismissed by senior Israeli military officials as ‘ragtag’, inflict further casualties on one of the world’s most powerful armies in southern Lebanon. At least 12 elite troops, the equivalent of Britain’s SAS, have already been killed, and by yesterday afternoon Israel’s military death toll had climbed to 45.

Some IDF officials have continued to refer vaguely to Katyushas being launched ‘near houses’ in the village and to non-specific ‘terrorist activity’ inside the targeted building. In a statement on Thursday, the IDF said it the air force did not know there were civilians in what they believed was an empty building, yet paradoxically blamed Hizbollah for using those killed as ‘human shields’.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 6, 2006 at 2:24 AM

Rabbit, thank you for that lucid scolding. I feel cleansed.

Oh Natalie, preaching to the idiots are you? And the bigots? Nothing you listed changes anything about the behavior of Israel or the fact that it is Israel illegally occupying territories, brutally attacking Lebanon in a collective punishment for something the people of Lebanon have no control over, and the fact that our good buddies in Israel sold American military secrets to the Soviet Union and China through out the Cold War.

Rabbit has described Israel very well. It is a pathologically self-absorbed nation of “chosen people”, with the chutzpah to say “Never Again!” as if genocide hasn’t been carried out umpteen times since WW II. I guess since the victims weren’t Jewish it’s still “Never Again!” So, eliminating the Palestinians isn’t “again”. They’re not people like Israelis are, right?

I consider anyone who supports Israel to be either woefully uninformed, or a genocidal racist.

Ask “the voters” what they know about international law, Natalie. Morality and ethics aren’t really decided by polls are they? If 86% of “the voters” in the U.S. voted to lynch the entire African American population, would that make it hunky-dory? Would that make it a valid plan of action to solve our crime problem? I mean, it is all black people responsible for crime right? Like the way Arabs and Muslims are responsible for all the problems in the Middle East, right? Israel is innocent, right?  White Americans are law abiding citizens, right?

Besides, you of all people should know that the more television news an American watches the less they know about world events. They seem to have a lot of “impressions” but aren’t aware of many facts.  Television news doesn’t exist to inform, it exists to shape opinion for the advantage of the owning class at the expense of the working class. 

What exactly you do, I’m not certain. But you persist.  I would say you work in a form of viral marketing. You try to appear like a regular person, just posting your opinions. But we know better, don’t we?  You’ve got a list of talking points, a circular graph so you can drop into the same groove every time someone brings up a particular point and do your best to keep the conversation running around in your little circle.

You appear to me to be here to soothe the dissonance of anyone who wants to believe the official lie—-not really to argue or discuss facts; but to make it appear that you are refuting in a way that someone who wants an “impression” to soothe their psyche and not the dissonance that genuine questioning and open-minded observation will surely beget to anyone who doesn’t want to believe that the world isn’t spinning on America’s hip, and our high-tech military is being beaten by a loosely knit group of angry rebels with primitive weaponry, that the dollar is in free-fall, that our government will let most of us drown just like New Orleans with no remorse and not a care in the world for anyone who isn’t rich already.

You’re here for the chumps, aren’t you Natalie? To keep them quiet until they have nothing but their denial to keep themselves from cracking? You’re here for the weak, and those who overestimate their sway. Hard to say who is less likely to survive in a Darwinian social arrangement.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 6, 2006 at 2:28 AM

So there in their own words are admissions they are not just targetting Hezbollah as they say.  Heh no problem.  Batgirl and WTH will gladly keep on with the old denial on their behalf.

They could kill your own kids and you’d be making excuses for them. 

Sickening!

It is quite farcical the way you morons claim atrocities in various places, like Iraq under Hussein, like Somalia or East Timor or even acts of barbarity in Iran.  To claim knowledge of these requires you to believe organistaions like Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International who do the actual reporting on such things.  Yet when those same organisations report atrocities comitted by yours or Israeli military, you immediately get all sceptical on us.

That is so thin, so disgustingly thinly disguised hubris, arrogance and abject denial that Rabbit is all out of hyperbole to describe it.

YUK!

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 6, 2006 at 2:29 AM

What part about Hezbollah offering to avoid civilian casualties if Israel will do the same don’t you sickos understand anyway?  Why would Israel not agree to this if they are indeed not wanting to hit civilians?  How can you still accuse Hezbollah of targeting Israeli civilians without jusification?

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 6, 2006 at 2:59 AM

This from the Irish Times debunks the propaganda crap about firing rockets from houses.

Posted by frog on Aug 6, 2006 at 4:13 AM

Eidolon Lagomorph and the Eidolon Explosions

When I first posted on this site, Lagomorph/ Rabbit was posting as Eidolon Lagomorph/ Ghost Rabbit.  It is my impression from that time that, as Rabbit, Lagomorph was kicked off the site for his obnoxious behavior and utter lack of relevancy, not to mention lunacy.  I don’t know who Rabbit blew, but he was subsequently allowed to continue posting as Ghost Rabbit, and then, again, as Rabbit.  (Since I first drafted the above, Lagomorph has confessed to having been kicked off ITT twice, while writing from a third IP address, which shows remarkable lack of discipline by the ITT website administrators.)

The Conspiracy Theorists (CTs) have taken a few basic facts and created a complex web of assumptions, lies, and irrelevancies, cheered on by Lagomorph and ilk, none of whom have ever had an original thought, but rely on complete idiots, such as rense, Jones, and prisonplanet, to do their thinking for them.

The principal piece of dishonesty is that the WTC Towers were not destroyed by the aircraft that crashed into them (and the subsequent fires), that it was known that the aircraft would not demolish the towers, much less WTC 7, and that explosives and/or thermite, timed perfectly to be covered by the crash of the aircraft, was needed to complete the destruction.

But so audacious an untruth must be justified; the Conspiracy Theorists think the government must have done it, since they hate George Bush anyway.  And then the improbable assumptions start to accumulate.

O, what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!
But when we’ve practised quite a while
How vastly we improve our style.

J.R. Pope, A Word of Encouragement (updating Sir Walter Scott’s Marmion)

There is absolutely no real evidence of explosives or thermite at WTC.  The “evidence” offered by CTs consists of three circumstantial related elements: seismic records, extremely hot metal found in the basement of WTC after the collapse, and the fact that the Towers “collapsed on their own footprint”, the way that Controlled Demolitions (CDs) of large buildings do.  But we must examine these three assumed explanations.

Seismic Records

The uscrisis.lege.net/911/ website has a copy of the Palisades seismograph printout of the aircraft crashes, mere blips, and the tower collapses, including high energy spikes.  After the seismographic printouts, there is a long CT rant about the destruction of the towers, including the following by Christopher Bollyn:

Two unexplained “spikes” in the seismic record from Sept. 11 indicate huge bursts of energy shook the ground beneath the World Trade Center’s twin towers immediately prior to the collapse.

...

These spikes suggest that massive underground explosions may have literally knocked the towers off their foundations, causing them to collapse.

Umm, no.  The spikes did not occur “immediately prior to the collapse”, they occurred some seconds after the initiation of the collapse, scaling from the seismic record.  There are hundreds of photos and videos showing the Towers collapsing downward from the point of damage caused by the aircraft.  There is absolutely nothing at all like “massive underground explosions” that could have “literally knocked the towers off their foundations, causing them to collapse”; there was no blast, no destruction, not even a broken window at ground level until the mass came crashing down from above.  It should also be obvious to the most casual observer that “massive underground explosions” are incompatible with “controlled demolitions”, which consist of many small charges spread throughout the building being demolished (see below).

Continue ...

Posted by scorp on Aug 6, 2006 at 11:48 AM

The duration of each Tower collapse scales to approximately sixty seconds in the seismic record, though the actual collapses of the buildings was about 8-10 seconds from timing the videos.  The maximum energy spike occurs, for the first collapse, after about twelve seconds from the time the structural members start to give way in the damaged area where the airplane hit.  Similarly, for the second collapse, about eighteen seconds elapse from the time the structural members start to give way in the damaged area where the airplane hit, until the maximum energy spike is observed. 

The undamaged top sections of the Towers fell as single units as the damaged portions of the Towers gave way below them, and all of the energy associated with tens of thousands of tons of concrete and steel would have been transmitted directly downward; there is your seismic spike.  After the spike, the descending mass pancaked down floor-by-floor, creating a rumbling in the seismic record until everything came to rest.

The CTs are faced with an insurmountable contradiction in arguing for controlled demolitions and explosives.  In a real CD, a relatively small amount of explosive is required (see below), and the charges are fired sequentially to reduce blast effect.  The total energy from sequenced small charges on building columns is not great, and most of it is not transmitted to ground.  On the other hand, one big charge would break windows and lots of other things, and would be abundantly obvious to the many people who were closely watching on 09/11.  Hence, no “massive” explosives, no massive spikes from explosives.

Hot Metal in the Basement

The hot metal hypothesis is problematic, for several reasons.  Thermite would certainly create hot metal, but not “pools” of it.  If one liter of thermite will burn through an engine block (as Jones and other show us, and as I can verify from personal experience), how much thermite is required to burn through a core column (or 47 core columns as in WTC 1 and 2)?  In the basement, the core columns are of rectangular cross-section, and have external dimensions of 36” x 16”, with a wall thickness of 4”.  A one-foot section of a core column would have a volume of metal of 2.4 cubic feet, 47 columns cut at one level would total 112.8 cubic feet, 47 columns cut at six levels would total 676.8 cubic feet of melted metal.  Doubling this for the volume of hypothetical thermite would still be just 1353.6 cubic feet.  This is a volume of 10’ x 10’ x 13.6’; this is not much compared to the reports of the CTs of molten metal.  And this total volume should be distributed unevenly across the core area, which is 137’ x 87’; this tells us that hypothetical molten metal in the basement of each WTC Tower amounts to about one-tenth of a cubic foot (~1 inch thick) of melted metal and thermite for each square foot of the core area.  You can pretend that there is twice or three times as much thermite, but it is still not much, certainly not “pools”.  And, of course, burning thermite does not create a seismic shock by itself. 

Fortunately, there is a scientific explanation for pools of hot metal that does not require the wildly improbable thermite hypothesis.  In certain conditions, iron will oxidize, and the oxidation of iron does create heat, lots of heat.  Mark Ferran describes how this might create real pools of hot metal under the WTC Towers.  This heat would continue to generate, explaining how the pile of rubble would remain hot for weeks after the fall of the Towers.  Not only that, but Ferran points out that the interior walls of the WTC Towers were covered with gypsum wallboard, which contains sulfur, which would account for the sulfur contamination in the molten steel at WTC, which the CTs universally, and falsely, attribute to thermite. 

http://www.debunking911.com/ironburns.htm

Continue ...

Posted by scorp on Aug 6, 2006 at 11:57 AM

Frog,

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 6, 2006 at 11:58 AM

Controlled Demolition (CD) 

Rigging a large building for controlled demolition (CD) requires weeks, with a very large crew, and the work is obvious to any passer-by, and there were tens of thousands of passers-by in WTC1/2/7.  NO PROBLEM!  CTs just assume no one notices anything. 

The CTs argue for both explosives AND thermite as the mediums of destruction.  Isn’t that redundant?  And, while you could theoretically time the explosives with great precision, thermite is an imprecise fire, leading to imprecisely timed results.  Controlled demolitions are regularly timed in hundredths of a second, and you can’t do that with thermite.  NO PROBLEM!  Since the Conspiracy Theory requires both explosives and thermite, you just assume both explosives and thermite, and do not worry if it does not make sense, or is redundant. 

In fact, the Towers fell downward (gravity does act in a downward direction), but the scatter from the fall damaged nearby buildings.  By way of contrast, the largest CD in history, 439 foot tall, (Hudson Detroit, 1998) was dropped quite cleanly within fifteen feet of the Detroit Elevated People Mover, with no damage to the People Mover or to buildings across the street from Hudson on three sides.

There is no evidence of explosive charges throughout the WTC Buildings, as would be required by controlled demolition.  The Hudson CD required 4118 explosive charges totaling 2728 lbs (about 10 oz per charge).  Since each WTC Tower had about twice the floor space of Hudson, it might reasonably require roughly twice as much explosive for a CD of each tower. 

Hawaii.indymedia website says that 14 tons of explosive were required to pulverize 90,000 tons of concrete flooring in each WTC Tower.  But that is 11 tons more explosive than required to drop each Tower.  CTs are not noted for rational thought processes, but this is getting ridiculous. 

Continue ...

Posted by scorp on Aug 6, 2006 at 12:07 PM

But the main point is that there is absolutely no direct evidence of CD explosions, or of massive explosions, or of thermite at WTC.  At no point in the fall of the Towers are there any windows blowing out or blast effects to be observed, other than at the point of failure; well, yes, tens of thousands of tons of building crashing down does produce dust and shock, but there is no evidence that the existing damage was augmented by explosives or thermite, which are improbable non-explanations for non-problems.  And IF (IF I say, IF, repeat IF) thermite or massive explosives were emplaced in the basements of the WTC Towers, the effort was an utter failure.  The core column did not start to descend before the rest of the structure, because if it had done so, the perimeter columns would have been pulled in toward the center by their attachment to the core columns through the trusses; there is no hint of this in the many videos.

So, the Conspiracy Theorists have wasted thousands of man-hours proving precisely nothing.  And Eidolon Lagomorph is a fervent believer in the Eidolon Explosions.

The best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men Gang aft a-gley.

- Robert Burns, 1796

Posted by scorp on Aug 6, 2006 at 12:17 PM

Fox news is sayinge xactly what you are Batgirl. Is this where you get your information? It sure looks like it.

Here is you own argument, put forth by Fox, in full colour.  They do it even better than you, but you are in lockstep agreement.

Cutting across the propaganda censorship.  See how it looks when the real questions are asked.  When the press isn’t goose-stepping alongside you and all other fascists down through history.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 6, 2006 at 9:46 PM

“Hawaii.indymedia website says that 14 tons of explosive were required to pulverize 90,000 tons of concrete flooring in each WTC Tower.  But that is 11 tons more explosive than required to drop each Tower.”

It’s interesting that you would refer to the Hawaii IMC coverage of Hoffman’s analysis of the WTC debris cloud, because the section you employ to substantiate your allegations (The Unexplored Option—Explosives) was not part of Hoffman’s original analysis but was interposed by the person who posted the paper on the thread.  Comparing Hoffman’s actual analysis to the IMC post will easilly establish the difference.  Hoffman doesn’t rule out the possibility of explosives.  He simply states that the kinetic energy required to produce the pyroclastic clouds of debris is much larger than the available potential energy that presumably brought down the towers.

Posted by Major Major on Aug 6, 2006 at 9:48 PM

These are the people who you want us to see as victims.

You shall know a man by his friends.

Here a glimpse at your friends.

The Israeli military has Halakhah as a swron policy.

The ‘halakhah’ is the list of 613 ‘mizvot’ that followers of judaism must ascribe to. These are rules that govern everyday life.  There are specific ‘halakhah’ for conduct during war including how you should treat a gentile woman before you rape her; to exterminate the seven Canaanite nations from the land of Israel; and the desire for perpetual war as listed below.

Mizvot 598-613:
598. That those engaged in warfare shall not fear their enemies nor be panic-stricken by them during battle (Deut. 3:22, 7:21, 20:3) (negative).
599. To anoint a special kohein (to speak to the soldiers) in a war (Deut. 20:2) (affirmative). . See Kohein.
600. In a permissive war (as distinguished from obligatory ones), to observe the procedure prescribed in the Torah (Deut. 20:10) (affirmative).
601. Not to keep alive any individual of the seven Canaanite nations (Deut. 20:16) (negative).
602. To exterminate the seven Canaanite nations from the land of Israel (Deut. 20:17) (affirmative).
603. Not to destroy fruit trees (wantonly or in warfare) (Deut. 20:19-20) (CCN191).
604. To deal with a beautiful woman taken captive in war in the manner prescribed in the Torah (Deut. 21:10-14) (affirmative).
605. Not to sell a beautiful woman, (taken captive in war) (Deut. 21:14) (negative).
606. Not to degrade a beautiful woman (taken captive in war) to the condition of a bondwoman (Deut. 21:14) (negative).
607. Not to offer peace to the Ammonites and the Moabites before waging war on them, as should be done to other nations (Deut. 23:7) (negative).
608. That anyone who is unclean shall not enter the Camp of the Levites (Deut. 23:11) (according to the Talmud, in the present day this means the Temple mount) (CCN193).
609. To have a place outside the camp for sanitary purposes (Deut. 23:13) (affirmative).
610. To keep that place sanitary (Deut. 23:14-15) (affirmative).
611. Always to remember what Amalek did (Deut. 25:17) (CCA76).
612. That the evil done to us by Amalek shall not be forgotten (Deut. 25:19) (CCN194).
613. To destroy the seed of Amalek (Deut. 25:19) (CCA77).

This is not a belief system which concieves of notions like Christian kindness.  As a people Jews, of Semitic or Khazari descent are no different than any other humans.  Only to the extent they ascribe to the most extreme tenets of a religion which predates its two modernised, more humanised offspring of Christianity and Islam, by several thousands of years. 

The most dangerous byproduct of that sort of extremism is a race of people who sincerely believe they are an exception to the extent that no laws of any other peoples but their own can have any meaning for them.  They place a caveat upon everything they do, as being automatically legitimised by virtue of being THEIR actions.  They make no concessions at all, demand all come to them on bended knee, and even then never be accepted as better than a servant. 

I don’t know how much dumber you can get than to stand up for the morals of a people who by their own admissions, (beyond the made for american goyim sheeple), have no such moral qualms.  Their own leaders describe Christian morals as being a serious problem which needs to be guarded against in their military. 

Hence the Halakhah above.  Don’t just glance at them consider their meaning if applied as a military policy.  Then look at what is happening on the ground in Lebanon and Gaza and the correlation should be easy to spot.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 6, 2006 at 9:57 PM

Good one WTH.

The US military won any war they won, but bureacrats and politicians lost the others.  With such a grasp of historical facts you really should be teaching.  Come to think of it from what I hear you could easily be a history teacher in the USA.  I catch regular glimpses of your students.

You are way back out there with the fairies in your meanderings again.

Scorp it puzzles me that you would be devoting more space in trying to falsely describe the seismic records and to somehow re-interpret them than the actual reports themselves fill up.

Why not just let people read the seismic reports, see the spikes and the timings of the collapses and allow them to judge for themselves?

Anybody who has done so can see you are making up stuff, and coming up with answers to questions the seismic specialists themselves admit has no explanation, if they ignore the explosives which WE KNOW were in the buildings.  I’m sureif you think your babbling long winded posts about nothing much at all impressed you personally and Batgirl perhaps even WTH will now bow down in homage.  WTH has entered his cognitive defence zone and so is as likely to believe anything which appeals to his sense of well being. 

As for anyone who is actually looking at the truth why do they need a proven nincompoop to explain it all to them?

My own preference in disseminating truth revolves around showing the truth to people.  Not trying to cover up anything or to spin it to mean something.

I have a whole thread above with logical reasoned statements, an unbroken chain of interlocking evidence which systematically demolishes your faith based ramblings and shifting stories.  It also builds a consistently substantial case for a full and indepenedent investigation, taking into account ALL the facts and evidence, including the huge body of evidence which has been kept SECRET now for five years.  That’s all I sought to do.  It is all we need.

As for proving what exactly happened, I repeat, we do not have to do that.  Having destroyed the credibility of the official case, there remains only for a full and independent investigation.  The only ones who could deny this at this time, have something to hide.  Don’t the victims of 9/11 deserve an honest and full investigation if it is shown that no such thing has yet occurred?  Is it better to let sleeping dogs lie, is that your point, dears?  Better the truth not be known if it will just cause more pain?  Better the real culprits stay free, and in power, and in charge of planes and buildings like always.  Is this your argument better to believe a lie than face the truth?  Some of the people all of the time, yes we know you.

That a large number of people can still be taken in by the laughable official fairy tale, is not hard to understand when polls show similar numbers of Americans still believe Saddam had WMDs and kicked out the weapons inspectors.  As many don’t even know WTC-7 came down, what good their opinions?  But such fickle sillies will turn on a coin when they see their first documentary mentioning this fact.

As that old saying goes, you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool al of the people every time.

Did you never wonder dear ones, who were those “some people”  referred to?

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 6, 2006 at 10:22 PM

I have a simple question, I wonder if any of the unwise and ignoble can give an honest and simple answer.  One word will do nicely, if one is knowing honesty.

That is all.  Let’s see what you are made of, oh unwise and ignoble ones.

Do you think that the wars on Afghanistan and Iraq would be justified if it were proven that Muslim fanatics were not the prime movers behind 9/11?

“OUR RACE IS THE MASTER RACE.  WE ARE DIVINE GODS ON THIS PLANET.  WE ARE AS DIFFERENT FROM THE INFERIOR RACES AS THEY ARE FROM INSECTS.  IN FACT, COMPARED TO OUR RACE, OTHER RACES ARE BEASTS AND ANIMALS, CATTLE AT BEST.  OTHER RACES ARE CONSIDERED AS HUMAN EXCREMENT.  OUR DESTINY IS TO RULE OVER THE INFERIOR RACES.  OUR EARTHLY KINGDOM WILL BE RULED BY OUR LEADER WITH A ROD OF IRON.  THE MASSES WILL LICK OUR FEET, AND SERVE US AS OUR SLAVES.”
 
 
Now, who said that? 
Was it Hitler? 
Was it Stalin? 
 
   
Menachem Begin
(Israeli Prime Minister, 1977-1983)

Did you guys see the other quotes I posted from some of your current cause’s actual words above?  Just so we can get clear who you are defending on the basis of more blind faith.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 6, 2006 at 10:29 PM

Major I am tending more towards stupidity than willfull ignorance on Nat’s behalf.  It seems doubtful she even reads the sources she herself posts, unless it is those ones which explore fifty different ways to say “that’s just a crazy thing to believe”.  Half Batgirl’s own sources are barely establishing some minor point for her, while contributing substantially to my case at the same time.  I’m too used to it to want more than that people look themselves with open minds at anything she suggests.  50% of the time it’s a direct own goal while the remainder is typically just some spurious theorising or cartoons.

Hoffman doesn’t rule out the possibility of explosives.  He simply states that the kinetic energy required to produce the pyroclastic clouds of debris is much larger than the available potential energy that presumably brought down the towers.

I figure the best thing is to look at the main points from the case which are the most crucial.  Those for which any implications are sufficiently important to warrant their pursuit and that are able to be established with a needed degree of precision.

There are such factors and the energy needed for pulverisation of the concrete is one.

So is molten steel, even the red herring of it being Aluminium from the planes fails to account for the exact same molten pools under WTC-7.

The uniformity of the falls, precisely as controlled demolitions are designed to do, and not least the spectacular pyrotechnic enhancements which should be obvious to any pyrotechnician.

The rate of collapse especially of building 7, completely rules out systematic, “domino effect” structural failure and is entirely consistent with complete and instantaneous structural failure.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 6, 2006 at 10:41 PM

“Do you think that the wars on Afghanistan and Iraq would be justified if it were proven that Muslim fanatics were not the prime movers behind 9/11?”

I don’t believe it.  I think he just admitted that there are such a thing as muslim fanatics.  It’s a start.  Let’s see if we can build on that.

——————————-vv—————————-

Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 “truth” movement into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense.  You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment if you simply run your revelation du jour through the following before opening your mouth at that party, or sending that email to that friend who still assumes you are sane.—- Natalie

9/11 myths
Debunking 911
Peer reviewed papers debunking the “truth” movement.
(using Steven E. Jones’ standard for peer review)  ;-)

16% of people believe in UFOs.  6% believe in bombs and missiles.  (Truthies love polls)

(most of this 6% don’t have more than a high school education and/or live in trailer parks)  (not that there’s anything wrong with that—I don’t, and I used to!)

Truthies love videos
(warning…graphic images and coarse language)

Not a single institute of Structural, Civil, Fire and Safety or Demolition Engineers on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.  Not a single institute of Architects on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.  Not a single institute of Engineers in any field on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.

Which begs the question— Why do you?  Oh yeah, faith.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 6, 2006 at 11:58 PM

That was predictable!

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 7, 2006 at 12:15 AM

You do realise that nobody at all ever denied there was such a thing as Muslim fanatics, o queen of the strawmen…?  Yes I admit there are such a thing as Muslim fanatics, I always did, Batgirl.  But when does the Bat admit there are also Jewish Fanatics and Christian fanatics equally so?  That would be a matter of consequence but you have taken a long time to realise I never deny Muslim fanatics exist when I never did.

Pretty stupid really since I’ve discussed the history of and posted references to the history of these Muslim Fanatic groups.

The issue at hand is that I asked you to answer a single question so simple that anyone would see the significance and you chose to come up with your last tired old babble.

Having dealt with most all of your demands to see the whole case as an “Imagine if this…” scenario.  Having dealt with this I am not asking much for a similar hypothetical response, but you cannot even bring your self to say it you are so desperately emotionally attached to your imaginary web of lies.

A yes or no would have been an honest response, given a choice you chose the improbable path of avoidance and dissembling.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 7, 2006 at 12:28 AM

Perhaps the question is do you—-WTH, Scorp, and Natalie believe that there are conspiracies? Do you believe that there are theories? Do you believe that it is possible to have a legitimate theory about a conspiracy?

Because if you believe that there is no such thing as “conspiracies” and no such things as “theories” and no such thing as a legitimate theory about conspiracy, then what are you thinking?

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 7, 2006 at 12:51 AM

More bad news I’m afraid denialists.  When you wake up and smell that burning smell it isn’t coffee.

Declassified papers show U.S. atrocities went far beyond My Lai.

How many times have you smeared the name of Jamie Henry my ignoble and unwise ones?  called him a liar and a traitor?  Who now are the liars?  This is just the tip of the iceberg, as well it speaks for itself..

Once again showing the only point I ever wish to make with such news, the USA is not better, or more moral, or more disciplined or more humane and nor is your country than any one else. 

You are not inoculated against facsism by virtue of your own rhetoric, on the contrary.

Therefore your grand argument of exceptionalism is as hollow almost as the Ashkenazi jooz, and you therefore have no business killing other people in their countries on the demonstrably false premise you are an exception and that somehow the untermenshhen need you to kill them for their own good.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 7, 2006 at 1:26 AM

This man actually goes along with scorpynat on 911, but totally condemns all bushgov actions since.—Bryan Cloughley served in nuke Royal Artillery in germany, intel in cyprus, FOO artillery in borneo, in jordan, and with Australian forces intel in vietnam.

Hardly an armchair peacenik, an expert on india, pakistan, the whole region,  I listen to him more carefully than to any Armchair Warrior bushlovers .

war crimes case being prepared in Scotland

Posted by frog on Aug 7, 2006 at 5:41 AM

Frog -

I am so glad to hear that war crimes cases are being prepared in Scotland.  It’s about time. 

I recommend that anyone convicted of headhunting, human sacrifice, deliberately targeting civilians, using human shields to protect themselves while engaged in warfare, or dressing little children as suicide bombers be boiled in pig offal and buried head down in a lime pit 300 feet deep.

Anyone who supports or assists such criminals, such as terrorist Imams and Mullahs or UN peacekeepers, should be subject to the same punishment.

Posted by scorp on Aug 7, 2006 at 12:04 PM

War Crime at Qana?

Posted by Natalie on Aug 7, 2006 at 1:43 PM

“Yes I admit there are such a thing as Muslim fanatics”

Very good.  Now, do you admit that they regularly blow things up, including themselves and other people?

Posted by Natalie on Aug 7, 2006 at 1:47 PM

“Perhaps the question is do you—-WTH, Scorp, and Natalie believe that there are conspiracies? Do you believe that there are theories? Do you believe that it is possible to have a legitimate theory about a conspiracy?”

Yes, yes, and yes. 

There was the conspiracy by al Qaeda to hijack our airliners and fly them into American buildings housing instruments of capitalism, militarism, and leadership.  There are mountains of evidence confirming this conspiracy, along with the admission by the conspirators themselves of its existence.

There is the theory of global warming.  There is the theory of relativity.  There is the theory of evolution.  All have substantial and in some cases overwhelming evidence of being correct, although some people question the legitimacy of some.

And so it follows of course, that it’s possible to have a legitimate theory about a conspiracy.  The key word is legitimate.  Theories, and theories about conspiracies by definition need to have some solid evidence behind them to be legitimate.

Legitimate Theory:  1) a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena

Illegitimate Theory: 6) An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture (9/11 conspiracy theories)

“Because if you believe that there is no such thing as “conspiracies” and no such things as “theories” and no such thing as a legitimate theory about conspiracy, then what are you thinking?”

I’m thinking that your logic is distorted by the fact that you mistakenly believe that there is some kind of legitimacy to 9/11 conspiracy theories.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 7, 2006 at 2:12 PM

Truthies are certainly welcome to their opinion, and have every right to advance their ridiculous, unsubstantiated theories.

However, when you enter the kitchen, don’t expect that there’s not going to be heat.  If they choose to take their battle to the mainstream of American media, which they appear to want to do, they shouldn’t expect to win with only weapons of deception. 

So far, they’ve successfully been made fools of on several cable tv and mainstream radio shows by people with very little detailed knowledge about the actual events of that day, or of the mechanisms at work in a burning lightweight steel structure.

If/when they are ever pitted against people that do have such detailed knowledge, the slaughter will be devasting and total.  It won’t be in front of a few dozen people on an Internet chat forum, but witnessed by millions of average people, who, when presented with such a contrast in reasoning, logic and knowledge, will start laughing and snickering along with the rest of us lonely debunkers in cyberspace.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 7, 2006 at 3:01 PM

“I recommend that anyone convicted of headhunting, human sacrifice, deliberately targeting civilians, or using human shields to protect themselves while engaged in warfare be boiled in pig offal and buried head down in a lime pit 300 feet deep.”

http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/97808/index.php

Posted by Major Major on Aug 7, 2006 at 3:39 PM

<i>“So far, they

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 7, 2006 at 3:53 PM

No wiley, I didn’t say MSM, well yes I kinda did but I meant so far just cable tv and mainstream radio, to distinguish between say WKRP in Cincinatti, and some guy in his apartment podcasting on the internet.

I don’t think these guys have made the evening news with Brian, or the morning news with Matt.  (Those are the big name anchors on the network news broadcasts).

What I’m talking about is in the few instances where these kooks have made it onto cable tv and radio shows, it’s primarily been just the host that has made them look like idiots, although recently I saw a show where they had an ex-CIA guy on to counter, (who couldn’t decide whether to laugh or cry) but he appeared to have no detailed knowledge about the arguments by the truthy, and certainly not about building mechanics or airplane flight.

My point is that these truthies are not even making any debating points with laymen, and they have yet to meet up with someone who has the knowledge and background to completely obliterate their silly claims.

I wonder if they really want all the exposure they’ve been bringing on themselves.  You can get a quick drink of water by punching a little hole in that dam, but look out when it enlarges and the whole resevoir comes crashing down on you.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 7, 2006 at 5:14 PM

Well, Natalie, I’m wondering if the shows you’re referring to really want people with knowledge and background to counter those who disagree with the official story. It seems that if they wanted truth, that they would find knowledgeable people to challenge the truth movement.

I also wonder why anyone would bother hosting a show for which they have not done enough research to have enough grounding to actually mediate fairly, or why they would not have someone there who could.

A three year old could make Einstein look like a fool, if “looking foolish” meant not looking like you were having a serious discussion with informed people when you in fact weren’t, and having a host that pretends that the guests are evenly matched, and having an audience that has been trained to be more concerned with how people “look” than the substance of their speech.

Posted by wileywitch on Aug 7, 2006 at 7:50 PM

Again, wiley, your logic is distorted by your assuming that the 9/11 “truth” movement puts forth legitimate arguments.  They don’t, and that’s why these shows haven’t seen it necessary to recruit engineering “troops” to use against them.

But if they keep pushing it, these shows just might.  Some of the troops out there might get fed up with the damage to reality these guys are doing, the disrespect they’re showing and the glib theories they’re trying to pawn off, and even volunteer.

I really did make a mistake though in putting forth the notion that the hosts made these guys look foolish.  They do it pretty much to themselves, with perhaps a little coaxing, as I’m sure you can hear on the mp3 above.

Posted by Natalie on Aug 7, 2006 at 10:48 PM

I don’t know where all the pictures of suffering Israelis are. I guess the majority of Hezbollah’s target’s being IDF soldiers does limit the impact a lot.  This is what Halakhah looks like on the ground, in practice..

Have a good look you unwise and ignoble creatures who support the Israeli terror state.  This is your work, this is what the policies you espouse create. 

Spinning it to blame the victims is just the sort of behaviour we would expect of the sort of sick fucks who think this is measured or justified actions by the worst human rights offender of history except the USA. The country with the greatest history of thumbing its nose at all UN resolutions except the first one which gave them a state.  More than sixty ongoing UN resolution defaults ongoing!

I see you are still playing child games and trying to build stupid strawmen again Batgirl.  Your wheedling atempts to spin things are wasted.  Nobody ever denied Terrorists exist, nobody denied they blow up things and people or anything else you are rolling in you silly creature. 

These are strawmen of your making.  It is not denying anything to say that Israel is the first country to employ terrorism in the Mid East, still the most prolific in this regard and is universally recognised if not unanimously yet as a Terror state. Zionists are the first to hijack an airliner, the first to use car bombs, the most prolific in mudering women and children in so called peace time and in war, like now. Those are just facts, and all you can do is make different names for the Israeli or American child murderers than for the Muslim or Arab Child Murderers.

What we do deny is that Muslim Fundamentalism is involved in any of the resistance to the state terror of the USA and Israel in anything but a supporting role.  Muslim Fundamentalists resist a Jewish inspired Christian crusadem it is you invading them, not them invading you.  This is pretty simple for most people, but Batgirl interprets it to mean, “The rabbit loves terrorism”  Stunning insight Nat, you must be something really hot like an information analyst or something?

By focusing your attention on the issue that by defending the right of Hezbollah to defend it’s homeland, or Iraqis to defend theirs Rabbit is automatically denying such a thing as terrorism exists is just proving what a fool you are.  Why should I even feel obligated to respond to most of your dribble Batgirl.  You just had several references to UN resolutions in response to your insane babbling about UN 1559, you had plenty of irrefutable facts quoted about the organised racism and blatantly war criminal policies of Israel and the proof of the hatred and Super race genocidal history of the Jews and how it is actually usurped by Khazari pretenders anyway who don’t even warrant the term semites let alone biblical Israelis!

Deny any of those facts you moron, or else tell us how they fit into your one sided faith based view of yet another matter of consequence. As always you have a whole head full of nothing. 

Now come out and debate something real and stop fiddling around in the shadows you dirty little Bat!

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 8, 2006 at 1:14 AM

Why hasn’t the 9/11 truth movement put forth legitimate arguments you idiot girl?  Because you say so?

Best go read that site you never have done yet, go read the hundreds of letters including from Engineers and other related fields who support the 9/11 Scholars research.  Legitimate arguments are all we have made, unlike you.

What I think happens is that you have a mental condition which equates every single point we have as your own, and somehow you ascribe your own dismal showing for the official fairy tale as belonging to us.

Facts speak for themselves, ou prove it by fighting tooth and nail in alosing battle against something which doesn’t really even exist.  We are just saying there is enough cause to demand a full independent investigation, including all the evidence which was ignored last time, and including all the evidence which is being witheld.

You are fighting a battle long since lost and twisting like an eel trying to dislodge a hook is only making you look stupid, as usual.  Claiming what you patenly don’t have, which is a credible or even probable case, is feeble beyond words and only an idiot like Scorp would be taken in.

Claiming we don’t have a case, when clearly we have a magnificant case, so chock full of facts that no interpretation is necessary by us, they demolish the official lies in an instant, is worse than disingenuous.

Lets say someone actually hatches out of nowhere and reads your false spurious claims, all they then do is try to find this maginficent case you have built up, and voila, they find,  nothing.  Nothing at least from you, compared to some very substantial facts from us.

You then look dumber than dirt let me tell you for making your laughable claims of achievment.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 8, 2006 at 1:37 AM

Bonjour Lapin et Cie.

There were approx 100,000 in Central London saturday pm, and almost nothing in the MSM.

The BBC,  in one broadcast ,said a few hundred in Tel Aviv, but I found this interesting report of 3000 to 10,000, at indymedia . A lot for a small country ...

“I should have thought that the photo of a man playing the piano in a ruined house should have sent a message of peace. But I saw the photo with all kinds of very warlike captions, which implied that I want revenge from the inhabitants of Lebanon. I called the press and protested and told them I had participated in the anti-war demonstration. They said: oh, but did you not change your mind when your house was bombed? Change my mind? I have protested against the stupid wanton destruction of war, and then the war and destruction came to my own home. Should that make me change my mind?”

TEL AVIV DEMO saturday 5 august 2006

So once more, much care to remember its not ALL ISRAELIS ...

AND,  look at the lack of press coverage, flagrant violation of any duty to inform the public.

Having just proved they are unwilling to report about 100,000 in London, we have the videos, how can we expect them to report more controversial stuff fairly, OR at all ?

t

Posted by frog on Aug 8, 2006 at 1:43 AM

“nobody denied they blow up things “

Excellent!!  Now, will you admit that muslim fanatics detonated a bomb, complete with cyanide, in the basement of the World Trade Center in 1993 in an attempt to topple it onto its twin?

Posted by Natalie on Aug 8, 2006 at 1:50 AM

I find the use of Human Shields, as distinct from the mere unfounded accusations of doing so, to be one of the more disgusting acts of cowardice any ARMY can engage in.

Of course, a simple reading of the Halakhah will show this too is considered to be legitimate when Jooz do it, basically the enemies of the Zionist state are mere cattle, sub-human, their blood is not worth anything next to a single Israeli soldier.  That is their policy and they live by it.  It isn’t your policy supposedly but you support them blindly in theirs so it is the same thing.

A small note to the Scorp.  I can still post as Rabbitvoz, and was only banned temporarily due to lying Pentagon shills and closer look by the ITT staff exonerated Rabbit so up yours your little creep.

As for GhostRabbit, it was a temporary handle while I was temporarily banned and I never botehred to get it re-instated.  Nothing changes the fact that you Scorp are universally reckoned for the lowest common denominator on this site, and only marginally brighter than Batgirl and you know why.

You are of no use whatsoever to any discussion as you are nothing but a snarky, arrogant, hubristic litle sack of ignorance and spite.  You make me and everybody except the most craven morons sick with your whining nasty one tracked pedantic claptrap. 

You never were in a discussion where you didn’t end up the laughing stock of all rational people on the thread.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 8, 2006 at 2:10 AM

muslim fanatics aided and infiltrated by the fbi…. nutty natty

For some light relief, as well as TRUTH,  here  we have George Galloway telling it like it is.

hey, hopper, what’s the fruitybat goin’ to say next ................................... cept she now hardly can dare to…................ or can she ?

Posted by frog on Aug 8, 2006 at 2:20 AM

Natalie

Stop playing with your strawmen, stupid girl the rabbit spits contemptuously upon your ignorant little postings about red herrings.

Go deal with the real facts.  Your case about Hezbollah and Israel just got demolished by the fact of Israeli use of human shields, their stated policy of civilian murder and of racial superiority and the massive civilian death toll compared with Hezbollah’s far superior targeting.

If all you can do is whine on about trying to define some handful of Muslim fundamentalist violence with the far greater terror which is being visited upon Muslims by your scum, then you are stuck.  You are lost and stuck and I’m not playing your childish games.

You are just making rhetorical statements which you dare not even try to defend when some facts are introduced which put those statements at odds with reality, so your answer is to talk about something else. You could not answer the simplest question on this thread for fear it would put your own totally decayed case into sharp relief with the real motives.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 8, 2006 at 2:28 AM

You go on about Israel defending itself, we point out that Israel attacked Lebanon first, and that capture of soldiers is not an act of terror or unreasonable in the situation and that Israel holds thousands of Lebanese and Palestinians in their gulags, you say nothing more about this.

You go on about Hezbollah targetting civilians and we point out that the casualty figures alone show Israel is killing a far greater number of civilians and at a greater rate compared to their alleged Hezbollah targets.  You claim that civilian deaths in lebanon are accidental while the few Israeli civlians killed is somehow a great war crime and deliberate.  It is a war crime and it is deliberate, but it is a smaller war crime and more understandable than the far higher number of civilian casualties of the Israeli Blitzkrieg. 

We point out that the killing of civilians is actually enshrined in the Jewish doctrine which is part of the IDF rules of engagement, despite hollow croaking about being the “most humane army in the world.”  You ignore all this and try to talk about something else, a completely pointless bit of semantics rather than face the direct contradiction which is apparent in the Halakhah.

You spout off about UN resolution 1559, and we list about sixty UN resolutions Israel is in breach of, and predictably you no longer want to talk about UN resolutions.

You spout off about Human shields, mere hollow accusations at that, and we point out that Israel is a documented user of human shields, so once again you no longer want to talk about human shields.

On and on it goes, your hollow rhetoric, it is deflated, you ignore it and move on to more hollow rhetoric.  Finally when you’ve done it all several times over you start being just plain stupid, babbling on about strange strawmen arguments you have assembled in your puny heads, and making utterly ludicrous self congratulating claims of great victories where for you there was only abject defeat.

The intellectual and moral poverty of your positions and those of the inimitable cockroach Scorpse, is the best indigtment for anything you morons would support.

How dare you claim the right to even address an honourable rabbit.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 8, 2006 at 2:45 AM

Frog the George Galloway interview is a diamond.

Rabbit saw it yesterday, has saved it to file and has seen it about five times so far today too.

We know what this Scotsman has under his kilt.  Big Brass Balls.

He makes Braveheart look like a ponce.

The pathetic interviewer Anne spoke of many emails for and against him, but apparently out of 99 emails she got about the interview, only three were for her/against George.

That would be Natalie, Scorp and one more I guess.

Here is some of those brave defenders of your freedom’s handy work being looked at in detail.    Just the victims of unavoidable accidents Batgirl, a few sub human rag heads after all.  Not anywhere as wicked as the bombing of white westerners or the special privelaged Israelis.

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 8, 2006 at 2:54 AM

“If all you can do is whine on about trying to define some handful of Muslim fundamentalist violence with the far greater terror which is being visited upon Muslims by your scum, then you are stuck.  You are lost and stuck and I’m not playing your childish games.”

I’ll take this to mean that you can’t deny that muslim fanatics indeed attempted to topple the WTC in 1993, and that you don’t like the direction my questioning is pointing.

Now that little stunt, had it been successful, would have killed how many people, do you suppose?  This was a deliberate, premeditated attack complete with a chemical weapon component, whose aim was to kill tens of thousands of innocent people.  And you describe this as a “handful” of muslim “fundamentalist” violence?  Like they were setting off firecrackers or something?  You compare this kind of purely evil plot with the largely defensive actions that have been taken by Israel through the years?  Dropping leaflets warning people to get out of the way?  The folks in the towers in 93 and 01 never got any leaflets.  The people in the Pentagon never got any leaflets.  The people on flight 93 never got any leaflets.  In fact, no Arab has ever even thought to drop a leaflet on anyone, anytime, anywhere.  They’re just not much for leaflets, are they?  They much prefer to arrive un-announced.

Your quote of Menachem Begin above about the “master race” seems a bit over the top.  I’m not saying it’s necessarily innacurate, but what is your source for it?

Posted by Natalie on Aug 8, 2006 at 3:43 AM

Furthermore you slandering Fruit Bat you called me anti-semitic and I pointed out that the Jews of Israel are not semites and that many Jews don’t support Israel either and then you no longer want to talk about that.

 
TRUE TORAH JEWS
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
 
NETUREI KARTA
http://www.nkusa.org/
 
NOT IN MY NAME
http://www.nimn.org/
 
JEWS NOT ZIONISTS
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/
 
B’TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp
 
JEWISH VOICE FOR PEACE
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/
 
For further political action and information see http://www.cnionline.org and http://www.endtheoccupation.org/ and http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/ and http://www.pchrgaza.org/ and http://www.voicesofpalestine.org/

Posted by Rabbit on Aug 8, 2006 at 3:54 AM

Frog,

Seem to have missed a bunch

Posted by whattheheck on Aug 8, 2006 at 6:17 AM