If there is anybody who really understands the word “dyke,” it is Joan Nestle, an author, editor and activist in the LGBT community for nearly half a century. “In the late ’50s,” she says, “when I was first exploring a public lesbian identity, the most dehumanizing taunt suspicious heterosexuals hurled at me was ‘bull dyke.’ It was filled with their… return to article
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Reader Comments (20)Page 1 of 1 pagesReminds me of the popular song Bitch back a decade ago. Reclaim the word for your own purposes. Similarly with the word nigger (althought this is disputed by Sheidlower) used by rappers today. I suppose the Fags might be next?
Still, i wonder. Which straight person here would be comfy going up to a big masculine lady and asking her is she is a “dyke”? I think i would be just as likely to approach a light brown skinned fellow and ask him if he were a nigger. . .
Posted by wolf on Jun 23, 2006 at 9:00 AM Wolf.....You are way out of line , completely off base...totally....One ; it is not necessary too use that word in reference to people of Afrikan decent..in any contexts....Afrikans from amerika have not reclaimed that word ; regardless of what you may see or hear in popular culture...the word you referr too applies to ignorances...therefore it can be used in reference to any individual of apparent low intelligence...not by ethnic heritage...a neo-con such as Tina possibly....Two...the word dyke as referred to in this article...talks about folks of a particular social sexual gender preference , the other word does not...when folks refer to people of afrikan heritage in that manner it is a prejudicial statement aimed at all afrikans from amerika and the diaspora...Three....People of afrikan descent do not and did not choose too be referred too in this manner...I am curious as to why you would automatically think of black folks in reference to an article about gay women ; base on the photo mostly white women...Maybe your analysis would have been more accurate if you had compared terms such as redneck or peckawood or maybe cracker ; in that way you can make your point and maintain your ethnic continuity....please,.leave use out of your nero-sighted perspective...And last...the struggles of people of afrikan hertitage in amerika and the diaspora , is a struggle for human rights and parity on an international scale...your marginalization of that fact ; abuses that reality and above all points too your own lack of understanding outside the confines of the nero world that you live in....
Your statement reeks of inappropiate paternalistic tendencies of a pathetic socio-pathological nature...Look , if you don’t like black folks , just say so.... the world will still turn ; Tina does it all the time..........day still follows night....
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 24, 2006 at 5:41 AM The social context within which the words are employed is probably more important than the words themselves. Most minorities are acutely aware of the inherently racist structure of the world within which they necessarilly exist, and recognize the futility of separating themselves from it. Racism resides within an economic power structure which minorities cannot avoid. Lesbians, on the other hand, can and do regard male paternalism and sexual domination as irrelevant to their sexual choices. In other words, they can choose to dissociate themselves from a sexist universe, while minorities are forced to work within a racist universe.
Posted by Major Major on Jun 24, 2006 at 7:26 AM Redhorse - i think you missed the point i was making. But before moving on, a few little things.
America.
to go, to be, too much
AfricanWhile you assert that nigger has not been claimed by those of African descent, it is my experience that it has. While i occasionally use it among my black friends (they really give me little choice!), i rarely use it among whilte groups. So i am sorry if i offended you. In forums like this it is difficult to determine intents and emotional overtones. Rest assured that i mean no disrespect in the use of the word in any way. Still, it is widely used both in popular culture (rap music) and personal interactions between individuals, for better or worse.
IN any case, the word was picked as an example of how words are claimed by the social group they refer to. I suppose if you were a stauch feminist, you might have made similar arguments against my bringing up the word Bitch. (I would use honky, cracker, etc, but these words do not really fit. However, “redneck” seems like a good addition to the examples. )
Posted by wolf on Jun 26, 2006 at 8:46 AM I suppose you could say the same for conservatives who affectionately refer to each other as “fascist” and “racist”, and liberals who call each other “communist”, or, occasionally, conservatives and liberals who describe each other, respectively, as “bleeding heart” and “hemorrhoidal”.
Posted by Major Major on Jun 26, 2006 at 10:50 AM And yet you use it again.....wolf .I don’t know your friends Black or White...but it seems odd that you say your black friends give you no choice...so I assume they hold you down with a knife to your throat...maybe a gun…
Peer pressure is such a Bitch.....I can assure you if you used that word in my presences , in any context....Redhorse… will literally crack your ass with my foot..........seen
AFRIKANS in AMERIKA will break their foot off in your ASS............seen
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 26, 2006 at 2:40 PM wolf....Duplicity apparently is a trait you are quite fond of...First...the use of racist terminology , would appear to be unacceptable in your view, then in your so-called apology you defend it’s use...and admit that “ peer pressure “ is the cause of your social stupidity...you even blame your uninformed ficticious “ black friends “.who give you “ no choice “...only using the word now and then among white folks , so kind of you to spare them...Now which is it....you see....when you are a liar...even on the .net...people can see right though that crap....Redhorse can smell the strench of your hypocrisy.....delusion is a dish best served with a side order of medication..you are one Sick & Confused little piglet.....Your apology is unacceptable....the only think that is “ sorry “ are those lame excuses.......................seen
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 26, 2006 at 10:20 PM It seems Redhorse has got your number Wolf.
Rabbit has been there, done that with Wolf and knows well what is coming.
Personally though I agree with Major Major more or less. It is the intent of the words usage which matters. It is possible to say such disparaging words in converstaion without they be used disparagingly. Not that it is likely they have much use outside of describing a racist or biggoted statement by another.
This is also why Lesbians can reclaim the word Dyke, and American Negroes can claim the word Nigger. But for any of us non Lesbians or Negroes I cannot see how we could use such words except in the event we are so well known to and among our friends of such groups. Then I’m sure the exceptional reputation you enjoy among them will be proven by them not killing you. I don’t see that they would appreciate you’re coming around here and boasting about it or encouraging others to do the same though Wolf.
Rabbit’s use of the words in the above sentence for example does not warrant anyone taking offence. But that is because they are used in the abstract and not as a specific reference to anyone.
The article illustrates the process of reclaiming such onetime disparaging nouns. It belongs to the discriminated to reclaim it, but for anyone else to take this as free license to indulge in their favorite terms of bigotry is not the point. It is they are are being empowered, and by so doing they take the word from their tormentors, it becomes their word, but in others’ mouths it is still a vile insult no less.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 27, 2006 at 12:11 AM Rabbit.....Yes...this is the point...this is clear...but I must object also too you....If you have noticed both Major Major and Redhorse have raised objections to wolf about the usage...without using the terminology....This belief that popular culture condones the use is a myth....plain and simple....it begs for more insight into the article on “ black males in crisis “, usually when folks do not feel listened too...they tend too shout....what is “ shouted about “ is not necessarily what is in their “soul “.......
It is not my intention too police others vocabulary...with that said...the hate that lives in the word of question, finds few that can parallel....very few...genocide....
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 27, 2006 at 4:27 AM Also the correct terminology for the so-called Negro is Afrikan Amerikan...my preference is Afrikan from Amerika....if I was really an Amerikan...personalities such as Malcolm X , Martin Luther King . Medgar Evers and Rosa Parks would never have raised a fuss....
Being born in a oven doesn’t make me a biscuit.....
The use of the letter K is a statement of being pre-extant...here first...before the invading infidel…
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 27, 2006 at 4:57 AM Redhorse - How does it make you feel to threaten another individual with violence? For the crime of speaking their mind? Given your ability to divine who and what i am, why bother to read the posts i write? After all, it appears you can represent me better than i!
Have you ever heard the expression that liberals feel with their hearts while conservatives think with their minds? Perhaps, even if this is only somewhat true, it might be best to be somewhere in the centre. . .
Either way, i feel no need to disparage you or yours. I *choose* to believe that you are an honorable person, worthy of respect. It disappoints me when others choose differently. I hope you find a path to happy future.
Posted by wolf on Jun 27, 2006 at 8:52 AM Much as the desire to wack Wolf rides high, I used the word in illustration and like I said, the intent is all that counts. Seriously Redhorse, we mustn’t get hysterical. Shall we revert to saying “he who shall not be named”?
Perhaps I should have said the “name which cannot be used”?
Make no mistake, the “word which cannot be used” was used with intent. It is not mystical. It is not a word of power. It is a word which was/is used to disparage, with the intent of disparaging it is as offensive as can be, used carelessly even, it is offensive.
On the other hand the target popultion may reclaim the word, and use it to bring power to their cause, Rabbit supports them in this. We have worss like Boong, and Blackfella, which cannot be used by white men but to deride, the aboriginal race of Oz. For Rabbit who does indeed possess close friends among these people, the word boong is still taboo, but no mate of mine would see problem with its use thus anthropologically speaking.
Blackfella is on the other hand acceptable said to the face of the fella concerned, if said by I.
Rabbit will not be held hostage to superstition.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 27, 2006 at 10:56 AM In all fairness your or anyone’s preferred term should be a matter of personal choice, the intent is what counts.
Rabbit is a Celtic Australian. A whitey. What is wrong with identifying a race by origins? African American is OK, if Rabbit is to be called British Australian or Scottish Australian. Its the intent Redhorse or we are just complicating the issue and diluting the argument of bigotry by making even harmless discussion form for action.
When any discussion on bigotry ends up questioning the terminology I an ex Budhist, Gnostic, Anarcho-socialist rabbit, with strong connections to the land uses, then the discussion is probably seeking fault where there is none.
Like I made clear, I would not use “the word which shall not be named” to refer to or about another human being. But if I am to even tell you about this how can I avoid using “the word which cannot be named?”
Let us advance ourselves over the hump of hysteria, lest we inadvertantly make ninnies of ourselves and begin to act as if we were in a Monty Python Sketch.
“The word which cannot be said”
We had fought all day and still we stood, till the rotten sod said the word we feared. From his lips the vile word fell, the word which attracted the devils from hell. Just as we thought the day was ours, the bigot shouted out the word. Which should never be said and never be heard.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 27, 2006 at 11:07 AM wolf....Save the bullshit....your use of that terminology is laced with violence...that’s what you don’t understand....by the use ; you imply violence................seen
Then you want to wish me peace......p-please…
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 27, 2006 at 1:44 PM Rabbit....I’m through....no hysteria.....I’m done...said what had too be said....I too study Gnosticism...have knowledge of our collective origins....understand the family of woman and the evolutionary path humanity is on...I do find the responses interesting...telling.
I’m sure though ; as a student of Gnosticism , you understand the divine nature of words and language...we all fall short of our true glory........true
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 27, 2006 at 2:02 PM All’s well that ends well. Rabbit was baiting slightly with the “deliberate” use of a word of negative vibrational energy. Trying to show one can neutralise the negative vibes of even such an atrocious word, but for me only possible by context. There is a truth which Wolf is himself floundering towards. So far he is only drawing near to the concept with his lips, maybe his mind has re-arranged itself around the idea too, but his heart is far from there.
It’s true as I say of Wolf that he is a bigot, a racist bigot also. But it is also true as is so often the case, that he doesn’t consider himself to be one. In his mind he has African American friends, and in his mind he is clapping them on the back and calling them “good niggas” or something. It is the exceptionalism which still swamps the gesture and makes it at least as offensive as overt racism, because it is actually just racism with denial. It is still White man Wolf being buddies with Black African Americans. Assuming of course that his gesture, will automatically be reciprocated. Still as oblivious to the independence and equal status which means the other guy might not give a shit.
“Oh yessir I’s so glad to be yo fren, I am so honoured”
In fact I think it is only ever possible for most people born into a racist society, with averagely racist or bigotted for other reason parents, to “modify” their behaviour. True unconditional equality will not happen for a generation or two.
It takes extraordinary experiences together or as said, generations before such a truly unconditional acceptance is manifest. Without which any chance of being able to use the former “bad words” in company with the former targets, is bound to be wrong.
By the way, Rabbit has referred to some lesbian friends of his, as Dykes and even carpet munchers, to their faces, though only very carefully while looking them playfully in the eye. Usually in context of telling jokes too I might add. Seems that half our friends’ daughters are Lesbians these days.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 28, 2006 at 12:06 AM Rabbit....look my hometown is a perfect example of the ol’ plantation system , with the Senate as the benevolent good ol’ massa and Congress as the Lady of the big house....No representation in Congress or the Senate....as stated in a post to WTH , Rep.Eleanor Holmes Norton can debate all she wants , but can’t vote...no real say over city business , this in a city with a population of about 5 to 600,000 people...As a child , various racial slurs where directed my way in a number of circumstances , especially when my “ white “ friends and I rode our bicycles down to Cap Hill....this was during the early 70’s , during Watergate...we were...just curious too see “history in the making “ instead we heard comments of a direct racist nature directed mostly at myself or other “ black “ youth who where just curious to observe history...The Capital Hill Police are a extremely racist institution and truth be told Cap Hill was not a safe place for any child , not accompanied by an adult ...The parents of my white friends were very dismayed by our report , it was clearly stated to their children , my friends , that behavior of that nature was wrong and would not be tolerated under any situation...I believe one mother wrote a letter , to who I don’t know, but it was made very clear that they were not too follow that example...So in the end or I should say , in the beginning , it starts with “home training “....
What the hell this has to do with Gay women ; I have no idea...the Gay agenda and Racism are not mutual exclusive...as stated by Major Majors post of June 24...7:26AM
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 28, 2006 at 4:48 AM Yes, Lesbians. That is why Rabbit threw in the comment at the end of last post. Feeling they were being forgotten a bit.
Now on words. Gay is not my favorite way to refer to people of alternate sexuality. What do we do with the derivative Gaily? Rabbit wishes to be gay sometime, without being attracted to men. Can a homosexual man be unhappy and still Gay?
I think it would have been similarly empowering for homosexual men to have followed in their sisters’ footsteps and claimed Poof for their own. Appropriating a harmless previously engaged word, for one’s own group like that is actually a bit thoughtless. The word belonged to us all, it wasn’t theirs to take.
I’m only being pedantic. BUT they could have invented a whole new word, if empowerment and reclamation was not prefferred.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 28, 2006 at 11:09 PM Rabbit....Point well taken.....now all heterosexual men have got to be gloom and doom too secure their masculine identity...A Rastafarian friend stated this fact to me one time.”..Wha ya mean by gay...wha so gay about be’in with a man,me no understand this gay ting...me gay...me very happy man.... me love woman...tis craziness...me no understand how a man can be wit a man and be gay “.....When my friend first came to the States he was very happy , glad , gay ( to be in Amerika , of course )....and told people such...folks would look at him in a strange manner , until someone explained the different meaning in the States...He was quite upset that he had told all these folks that he was “gay”.........Sometimes life just ain’t fair....
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 29, 2006 at 4:05 AM It occurs to me to wonder from whence cometh this usage of Gay?
The first thing which springs to mind is Oscar Wilde. I wonder if the answer is easily found on the web. We shall see.
Of course any knowledgeable Gay people are welcome to contribute if you know the answer. Rabbit is wondering about it for purely anthropological reasons.
Posted by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2006 at 11:00 PM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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