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i wonder if laos could sue america irresponsible for what it did in laos.
Posted by isaki on Aug 8, 2006 at 8:13 PM
UXO from WWl is still blowing up in France occasionally. I would assume a lot is out there all across Europe from WW2 as well.
Nearly 45,000 people in the US die each year in car accidents.
Let
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 9, 2006 at 9:21 AM
Your connection between UXO and car crashes I must say is rather spurious. The decimation of rural indigenous populations has been a major US policy for the past 60 years and continues to this day. Perhaps there is a more fundamental question to be asked, i.e. why were these crimes perpetrated in the first place and I include the First World War in the scheme of things here also. I would also imagine instances of UXO explosions in France is minute in comparison with what is happening accross Indo-China today. Let us not forget the empirically true fact that if all post-war American Presidents were tried under the Nurmberg laws they would all have been hanged. That includes Bush!!!! I doubt the Laotian people would get very far with any attempt at legal proceedings particularly since Vietnam was forced to pay over 100 million dollars around 15 years ago just to be reintegrated into the economic system it initially tried to develop outside of. It was given a severe punishment beating for doing so and then forced to pay for it. Do we force rape victims to pay reparations to their attacker. No, we don’t!! Only on an international scale can such miscarriages take place without being reported or talked about. It is unfortunate but true nonetheless. Think before you talk whattheheck, and analyse your country’s grizzly history. I speak of course of its external behaviour. So while we may all agree on the potential for freedom being the greatest in the US, there is no correlation between its internal freedom and its external behaviour. Let us hope and pray a resolution can one day be found to this continuing worldwide problem.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 9, 2006 at 2:13 PM
Even if the Laotian people could attempt to get reparation for their human losses, it’s not about dollars, it’s about human decency. The USA has been acting for many years like a spoiled child who thinks he can break things because his rich daddy willl pay for them.
If by freedom you understand the right to say whatever you want, I think that’s not as important as listening to what others have to say and take into consideration their views. Take for instance Irak or Lebanon. Most of the world are against those wars, including a great number of American and Israeli citizens but nobody cares, they continue killing innocent people, destroying infraestructure and getting ready to interfere in the politics of Latin America by hook or by crook.
We are not impressed by the millions of dollars you boast about, or by the Pan where Green bills are cooked (funny, the name Greenspan seems to have represented that). Who controls the money your country prints to spread around the world like in a shopping spree?
No amount of money can buy respect and you are losing it at a fast pace.
Posted by Maria on Aug 9, 2006 at 3:26 PM
Well you will surely be aware that everything revolves around money regardless of personal opinion. For instance I disagree inherently with the whole concept and believe it is the mainstay of greed. Pretty basic comments. However it was economics that will be the cause of interference in Latin American Democracy, it was economics that drove the United States into the jungles of South Vietnam. However much we may treat it with personal disdain. Therefore the bottom line in this probably terminal phase of human evolution is the dollar and the euro. It has been the deciding factor in the construction of the Axis of Evil. I am delighted that the US economy has been declining and I hope the rest of the world will follow. The sooner we can develop outside the system of greed then the sooner we can begin talking about human decency with any sense of reality. Diversity of opinion will be the mainstay of this and of course it should be respected, but it must also be informed.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 9, 2006 at 3:48 PM
Some questions re this article and replies:
Terry,
1. I didn
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 10, 2006 at 6:28 AM
Thank you for the reply. Yes I can give you examples of countries that, or at least large parts of countries that have been ostensibly free from greed at least in a more communal sense. I cannot comment on individuals. I would suggest you look at the Barcelona Anarchists of the Spanish Republic who were simply crushed by Franco’s fascists. I am not writing from Italy, it is an Irish flag (green white and orange, they are similar). The Israeli Kibuzzin might be considered another example, I am not sure how true it is today but certainly before they were quite happy not to driven by greed. The Paris Commune might be another example although it was unfortuantely shortlived. There is the potential for these things to extend over a long time. Greed for me at least appears to be a product of Capitalist society rather than an inherently human trait. What can we expect from a society when the highest things one can aspire to are a plasma screen TV and Cadillac Escalades. I believe altruism is an innate human feature, the denegrations from this path I would consider also to be a social product. There is a great potential for change within each and every human being. Once we develop beyond means of greed (and it is coming quite soon I would imagine since the oil is runing out) then we can hopefully begin to explore a spiritual change that will facilitate and also contribute to a better sociey for all. I am afraid I dont understand how greed and desire for wealth has benefitted us scientifically, not in any way at least that could not have been reached through some other means. I dont believe that greed is a timeless problem in fact from my own study in archaeology I believe that prehistoric groups were a great deal more democratic and egalitarian than anything to be seen today. Things are complex I will never deny that, but try looking at the nature of the East Timorese peoples and their society before Gerry Ford, Jimmy Carter and Henry Kissinger took it upon themselves to facilitate economically , militarily and diplomatically the genocide of one third the population of that country. Again this was a case of a small nation with natural resources in abundance threatening to develop outside of the economic model sent down from on high i.e. Washington. I think you will find that they were a great deal more egalitarian, more democratic with a lot more sharing of wealth(there may be a major UXO problem there now also). I enjoy sharing also, I dont allow myself to be phased by possessions and while I may have many material things I would have no problem giving them all up for a slice of a slightly better world. I also believe that there is a deeper reason for the decline of the US economy than merely consumerism. Taking for example Iraq’s change from oil trading from dollars to euros in 2001 (Axis of Evil Member No.1), Iran quickly followed suit changing from dollars to euro denominated accounts (Axis of Evil Memer No. 2) and North Korea’s decison to do all of their commodities trading in euoros from now on (Axis of Evil Memeber No. 3). The Federal Reserve no longer has its licence to print money, as countries now actually have a choice not to do their oil trading in dollars. Excuse the length of this “comment”, I would enjoy discussing some of these things in more depth unfortunately this is the only forum I have open to talk with you.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 10, 2006 at 9:54 AM
Tony B, thank you for your wise comments. I agree with you entirely. I am sure us, humans, have many capabilities the capitalistic system is eager to crush because they are not good for profits. The Spanish Anarchists, the Paris Commune and the Isrel kibbutzs of the early days are very valuable examples of how the prevailing system has exerted pressure on any group of people trying to create a better world.
I think greed is like a disease in expansion nurtured by the models imposed upon us but not man’s true essence, and that’s what keeps me going, despite old age. Glad there are many like you to keep the torch alive.
Posted by Maria on Aug 10, 2006 at 10:44 AM
Thakn you very much Maria. I am sure your “old age” should not be so much of an impediment to you. I am only 20, I still have to enter the workforce and when I do I am afraid I cannot promise that I will continue with my efforts.As is all too obvious work is the main system of control. I hope I can continue. Unfortunately, these capabilities are being crushed on a daily basis. Unlike Franco they no longer need tanks and guns to suppress us, they have television and public relations to do that for them. I of course speak of Western countries, people whose opinions matter. Of course too often violence is their answer. That is why unfortunately one can feel quite alone and isolated, I find it refreshing to have people with a similar emotion about our unfortunate phase of evolution.It can feel as if progress is being reversed in these days. Upon hearing of the ongoing atrocities a feeling of helplessness can on occasion overwhelm. It is quite disturbing to see so much human potential wasted on the trivialities. Anyway thank you for your kind and encouraging remarks. I will try to keep that torch going as much as I can. Eduaction is the best weapon and you are never too old to learn or inform. Thanks again. I hope we can uncover the true human essence sooner rather than later.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 10, 2006 at 11:21 AM
TonyB, Maria,
Sorry about the flag confusion. It is a bit too small to easily distinguish red from orange. (At first I thought it was a French flag which would have been off on two colors
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 10, 2006 at 1:24 PM
Yes I would also like to know where Maria is also!! haha
It appears we do agree on some of the fundamenals but I must always feel that greed is a product of society. We are assuming here that history is following some sort of cyclical pattern here. We must instead assume that these are the times to be alive. The very fact we are here discussing such things means that there is something telling us that things are not right. I must say that there would be more than a mere system of restriction stopping me from taking something that did not belong to me, likewise in terms of more heinous acts like murder or rape. These must be products of a social system. Taking for example the fact that 3/4 serial killers are from the US, no offense to the US but there must be some defining factor in an American background that greater inclines you towars such acts.
Of course we will probably never fully reign greed in but I must say that we can achieve so much more. I think a civic spirit can override such inhibiting factors of people’s souls such as greed. They may always exist in some form.
Consider a newborn child as the blank slate, with innate cncepts of right and wrong. If the child is taught that it can have what it want by a winner takes all philosophy it will obviously have ill knock on effects for the future. Taking for example the amazing succes of Deweyite schools where competition was non existent, great things can be achieved under the right conditions.
Unfortunately as you rightly point out Corporations, the Corporate Lobby and Governentshave become virtually indistinguishable from one another. In fact I feel one of the most abhorrent laws in America is the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.A fanatstic principle, initially it was passed to give black people equal rights. However at this time corporations were generally small and only chartered to carry out specific functions.Corporate lawyers ensured that corporations were written into this law and they now have rights akin to that of a human being. Therefore a corporation maybe fined billions of dollars but no one person can be held responsible. As you say as corporations have become international powers in their own right (their profits sometimes exceeding poorer countries GDP) their power has spiralled out of control. We must now work to narrow these powers that these forces wield over our lives. I speak not merely of corporations but of all these invisible and mostly unnecessary forces such as government restriction, police forces. While in certain instances they are certainly required their power has gone beyond what was originally intended.
Unfortunately there are few examples of Capitalism at its best anymore. I think it is time for a change. I am a libertarian socialist so I dont think there can be much good to come from capitalism at all. I am afraid the Rags to Riches American Dream of Upward Mobility has been a construct of somebody’s imagination and I believe the figures bare that out.
Great thing should be expected of these people who govern our lives, however America consistently ranks last in infant mortality and healthcare statistics of the top 20 industrialised nations of the world.
There is a bigger picture to be seen, one of progress and one of change. Real change not the type of change these politicians speak of. They make the process sound so esoteric and mystical that one feels that to try and interefere would be a mistake. However to not get involved now would be the mistake. Mistrust of world governments is constantly on the increase, let us hope when it changes it is for the better and not just a reversion to older more antiquated forms of emotional and physical exploitation.
I hope you will excuse the length of these responses. I cannot stop once I get started. I dont know how ew got to this point from UXO, haha
Anyway thanks for listening.
Look forward to the responses.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 10, 2006 at 2:03 PM
TonyB,
I would agree with you regarding individuals born as a blank slate, but do not believe they have an innate sense of right and wrong. A child must be taught right from wrong and primarily by the parents, in my opinion. I would also disagree with Hilary Clinton
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 11, 2006 at 1:15 PM
TonyB, Whattheheck, you both flatter me by wanting to know where I live. I am Argentine, but have been living in Costa Rica for the last 6 years after retirement. I chose Costa Rica because it has no army and because I wanted to enjoy nature at its best, although things are changing now with all the “progress” which sacrifices trees to build more malls. My ancestors were French, Spanish and French Basques. They worked very hard and so have I but money matters were not so important in those days and I was encouraged to read a lot, to open my mind, to be compassionate rather than greedy, to pursue knowledge rather than property.
I would suggest you to try something: talk to any unknown child in the street under 2 years old, smile at him or her, if he is eating something show him you would like to try it, and 9 out of 10 will stretch their hand and offer you a bite, which would prove human beings are not naturally selfish. A few years later, watching their parents’ attitudes toward material possessions and being pressed at schools to be competitive will thwart their natural inclination to generosity. I think cooperation, teaching a child how to think, not what to think or believe in, is superior by far to competition.
That’s all for now.
Posted by Maria on Aug 11, 2006 at 4:50 PM
Maria,
Children:
I expect you are absolutely correct
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 12, 2006 at 6:36 AM
After reading the reviews of the Griffin book I have a couple of very basic questions I would like to ask him.
Since he claims the US is in control of people who will stop at nothing to accomplish their ends:
1. Why weren
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 12, 2006 at 12:50 PM
The issue of UXO in Laos has caused some controversy and diverged our views so greatly that we could hardly agree on anything. It is just because we saw and experienced things at different time, at different place, and even at different generation. It might not be easy to digest an issue. The following info may give some clearer picture of the UXO in Laos. Between 1964-1973, more than 580,000 bombing miissions were carried out, dropping more than 2 million tonnes of bombs on Laos, from south to north. The Lao popolation at that time was less than 3 million. To be precise, The Lao received about 0.67 tonnes of bombs per head. About 30 percent failed to explode. Today the population stands at 5.6 million, over 80 percent of them is engaged in subsistance farming and non-timber product collecting activities in rural remote areas. The possibility of stepping on UXO is high. Once it takes place, it is about loss of life. Since the end of the war in 1975, more than 10,000 people died of explosion. One of the causes is collecting the scraps of bombs to sell. Those unexploded are broken into pieces by collectors. There are not many lucky surviving from dismantling the bombs but they have no other choices.
Although clearing those bombs is the government’s responsibility, we are talking about the least develped country whose people’s average annual income per captia is just about a few hundreds dollars. It is hard for the government if without donors’ funding. Clearing bombs needs great resources (skilled people, technology, etc.) The country bombing Laos has done little to help remove those bombs. But it is its allies like Australian, Japan, Canada, Luxemboug, others are the ones pouring those resources instead. Where’s human decency the doer has? The US staged wars in Indochina for one reason. That is it feared of the spread of Communism over the Southeast Asia, athough Tony was right, maybe, that it was economics-driven.
Let us wish that the wars in Iraq, Lebenon, Palestine, and the rest on this planet are finished very soon to avoid the loss of life, suffering, and displacement of the innocent people.
Posted by isaki on Aug 13, 2006 at 2:17 AM
Isaki,
Your description of the UXO problem in Laos is immense, frightening, and disheartening. Until this article I had never heard or read any mention of it. I was familiar with the still surfacing explosives in France from an article in The National Geographic magazine several years ago.
I knew a man who was involved with bomb disposal after WW2 in Europe. It is a highly skilled and dangerous process using a variety of methods depending upon the type of ordinance involved. He lived to tell about it and died an old man.
Where did you get your information? What about Vietnam and Cambodia? They must have a similar problem and if so, how are they dealing with it? I do read a lot, especially history and current events, so if I am unfamiliar with the issue I assume very few people over here are.
As for peace
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 13, 2006 at 5:49 AM
whattheheck,
You can visit www.undplao.com. More info on Lao UXO is there. For the UXO history in Laos, read the book, titled “Shadow War: The Cia’s Secret War in Laos, by Kenneth Conboy. There are quite a number of books written about “the Secret War in Laos”.
I don’t know the UXO problem in Vietnam and Cambodia. I guess they might face the similar problem. For Cambodia, after the US left, the rebel Communist forces, the Khmer Rouge, led by Pot Pol, took over the country. Between 1975-1979, about 1.7 million people are believed to have been killed under Pol Pot. Countless mines had been plotted killing a large number of people. The united nations and international donors are helping the government to remove mines. Similar to Laos.
For the middle east wars, please watch this video clip http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html. just to see the different views, a lot of people in the world might have missed the history of the middle east conflicts.
Posted by isaki on Aug 13, 2006 at 10:08 AM
I can confirm that these are also major problems in Cambodia and Vietnam. Another major problem still faced by both countries is the fact that there was also used in abundance chemical defoliants such as Agent Orange. The calculated use of these products by US forces throughout Indochina has also meant that much of the land has been left barren even to this day. Birth defects from this are also a very prevalent problem and also continue to this day.
Even now Israel are using cluster munitions against Lebanon and in Palestine, which has been strongly spoken against by Human Rights Watch. I have not read the book Isaki refers to but I would personally recommend for information on the US war throughout Indochina and throughout the world two volumes of the one book by Noam Chomsky and Edward Herman;
Political Economy of Human Rights: Volume 1 The Washington Connection and Third World Fascism
and
Political Economy of Human Rights: Volume 2 Postwar Indochina and the Reconstruction of Imperial Ideology.
Both truly shocking. We must also realise that to the “vistors” go the spoils and that vast swathes of this history has been re-written and manufactured to ensure the truth is fully suppressed. I am afraid we diverged majorly from the initial topic of this conversation as Isaki rightly pointed out. Regardless of personal belief we must realise that these are genuine issues and are happening throughout the world. It is thoroughly enjoyable to give the lesser known aspectsand uglier sides of history that we are not suppoesd to hear, however grotesque and disgusting the facts may be they are there to be read if you have the energy to look for them.
Interestingly since you mention World War 2 I would like to point out another aspect of this era that is little alked about. This is IBM’s facilitation of the holocaust. They were the ones who supplied Nazi Germany with the punch card system that allowed them to reach such startling numbers in the holocaust allowing them to catalogue each Jew individually with IBM leased (not sold) Hollerith technology. The leasing of the technology because each month an IBM engineer had to go and service these machines many of which were found on site in places like Aushwitz and Dachau. In fact it was not simply IBM. The most abhorrent feature of this is IBM’s removal of the profits after the war was over. In fact during the depression foreign investment went down everywhere in Europe except for one place; Nazi Germany where US investment went up 48.5 per cent from Hitler’s assumption of power up to 1940 including companies like IBM, Ford, ITT, International Harvester and so on. The simple reason for this is becaue Nazi Germany could provide a world still free of Trade Unions where there would be a “favourable investment climate”.
This is why the United States and others found themselves in the jungles of South Vietnam and using revolutionary counter terror in South America and Asia creating a culture of terrorism where populations are simply beaten into line to ensure favourable economic climates for the people our governments really serve.
Also on your comment about simply assassinating dissenting voices whattheheck, I have not heard of the Griffin book you refer to but I will attempt to make an educated guess. American government and big business will forever have their media monopoly. It is possible to draw unnecessary attention by simply murdering dissenters. However the media can simply use character assassination as they have tried unsuccessfully to do with Noam Chomsky for the past forty years.
There is so much unknown history that people will never be aware of. Work as I have said is the main system of control. Work, as we know it today, was called for centuries wage slavery. If you return from work one evening you do not begin research projects on UXO or US investment history or any other grotesque feature of history.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 13, 2006 at 2:34 PM
Isaki,
I
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 13, 2006 at 3:14 PM
I will finish with this. Chomsky’s popularity is backed up by his hard cold fact. He has been writing for forty years and any factual error has been corrected by himself. If you consider him ” a real nut” then I just cannot respond. His clarity of thought and exposition cannot be faulted. If you consider him so then I must merely say you have not investigated his statements or his ideas. The New York Times said about him he is “arguably the most important intellectual alive”. You will see this on every book he has written, however as he himself pointed out this was a publishers blurb as the article goes on to say if thisd is so how can he say such terrible things about US Foreign Policy. He then further said if it was not for the second lne he would begin to think he was doing something wrong. He writes about these things because we need to be responsible for the predictable consequences of our own actions primarily. If it is your government supplying weapons to maim and kill in a war that has bewen described by Kofi Annan as illegal, in Palestine, in Lebanon, in Iraq and all over the world.
I dont know what rights of the Jews are being contravened???
IBM have denied this but if you look into this I am sure you will see that IBM’s main business was not seeling technology, it was leasing technology. Take also for example the fact that Sony/EMI’s main business is not the music industry it is weapons development.
History has been rweritten. Taking as just one example in my own country; our government recently had a military parade to remeber the 1916 Rising against British imperialism. This was hilarious for me as my governments policies economic and foreign are a total betrayal of what was fought for in 1916. This was just a minor domestic example of the manufacture of history to suit a poltical end. Our government always finds a way to stir up irrational feelings of national pride and nationalistic jingoism at election time. Conveniently!!!!
IBM maintenance of the machines is historical fact. The only major book written on this topic is by a man called Edwin Black. It is very meticulous. IBM of course denied it and everybody was satisfied after that, no need for any further investigation despite the fact that IBM were the target if the allegations. Once they deny it people are satisfied.
I think you drastically underestimate the reach of the people who shape public thought and public action. Media and intelligentsia subservience to state power is one of the best supported conclusions in the social sciences. I dont know who told you Chomsky is a real nut but I would suggest you try pick up one of his books and see if his documentation is inconsistent. 90 per cent of his sources are Human Rights reports, Church Group reports, AI reports and official policy documents.
Two examples and then I will leave you in peace (haha)
FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting) commissioned a study of the political talkshow Nightline. They surveyed 40 months of Nightline (865 shows). Of 1530 US guests:
92% were white
89% were male
80% were Professionals, Government Officials or Corporate Representatives.
Figures in 1992:
In the United States there are:
7 major movie studios
1,800 Daily Newspapers
11,000 Magazines
11,000 Radios Stations
2,000 TV Stations
2,500 Book Publishers
23 Corporations own over 50 per cent of the business in EACH medium, in some cases they retain a virtual monopoly.
This constitutes a ridiculously narrow “spectrum of opinion”. What kind of view would you reasonably expect to come out of these media???
Anyway those are the figures, reach your own conclusion.
This restriction of chracters is annoying. My email address is barrettanthony@hotmail.com if you would like to discuss these things in further detail. It is a secondary email address of mine so I dont mind telling it to you here. If you email me I can give you my primary one.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 13, 2006 at 4:12 PM
TonyB,
The problem with writers like Chomsky is there is always some part of their argument which the reader can relate to as truth. Then, just as when we read something which we see as blatantly false, we tend to accept or reject the whole premise.
If he were to slip in an example involving little green men from Mars, we would dump it all. The difficulty comes when ideas are at least plausible and are often repeated. With the advent of the internet this problem is multiplied beyond simple verification since we seldom know the original source or the underlying motive.
While investment surely was an aspect US involvement in Vietnam was slow to evolve and far more complex. Some just plain stupid decisions and assumptions were made by the US and they were followed by a covering of lies. Politicians see admission of a mistake as the kiss of death.
The expansionist policies of the Soviet Communists we saw in Europe gave plausibility to the
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 14, 2006 at 6:24 AM
I must reply by saying Chomsky’s ideas are pro-US. His ideas depend on a recognition that your government and mine do not serve our interests, his hopes are pinned on the citizenry of the US. To simply disregard him with ad hominem tactics such as calling him a nutcase do no justice to anybody. I would implore you to give him a chance and see if inconsistencies are there. I do not know what parts of Chomsky’s arguments have turned you away from him so fervently, his books are for not just the head but the heart. Some deceny is required from us all to realise our full potential as human beings. You cannot be proud of your government just as I am not proud of mine. I am proud of my country and its history. He has constantly reiterated the fact that the US has the most potential for change. On the comment of selling books, Chomsky himself already had a very comfortable life through his groundbreaking work in linguistics. His turn to dissent in 1964 was a very conscious one for him indeed. Of course I find it very difficult to remain objective given the fact that I have realised so many uncomfortable truths about our society in my studies in US foreign diplomacy and even my studies in archaeology.
Let us also not forget that there was a fully accepted resolution to the situation in Vietnam in the form of the 1954 Geneva Accords which if adherred to by the US would have meant that there would have been no need for the decimation of the rural peasants of Indochina, or has that been removed also?? As Orwell wrote and you rightly point out “He who controls the past controls the future, he who controls the present controls the past”
US bad policy does not begin or end with Vietnam or Indochina, it has been repeated throughout the Middle East and Central America as well as Asia and continues today. I am afraid that the idea that policy is inherently altruistic and it was simply enacted poorly is too much to swallow. There is constantly a rise in domestic repression where the US gets involved. There is a bigger picture of which Vietnam was a part, but it has been enacted throughout the US spheres of influence. The Communist myth was simply one of convenience for the US. The bombardment and subsequent invasion of South Vietnam had to be accompanied by the bombing of the North to maintain the myth that there was some Communist behemoth to be opposed. I dont think the Communist threat was ever perceived seriously by any serious policy planner. I feel this is borne out by the fact that US military budget increased massively even after the fall of the “evil empire”. It is true that the Soviets carved up Eastern Europe, but there is vast swathes of the world where the US was doing the same. I ostensibly agree with what honest Abe had to say but in the majority sense they have fooled the people. However I think this is changing somewhat. I find opinion polls from your country bare this out also. Few people believe that your govenment is taking you anywhere meaningful, exploring human potential and the limits of democracy and cooperation. The impoverished people of your nation dont vote, those who have slipped through the cracks of your system hve been totally disenfranchised from the democratic process and it is a shame.
It is true Israel is under threat from Iran and other Arab nations. However there is a reason for this. “Why do they hate us???”. A question so frequently asked but rarely ever answered. In an email I recently wrote to Kofi Annan I pointed out that perhaps these countries could have been much more easily appeased if they had reamined secular democracies as Iran was in 1953. The fact is that the US has been providing crucial strategic military, diplomatic and economic aid to continue bombarding Arab nations. I agree no more with somebody like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as I do with George Bush. However as a wetsern observer I feel I can impact more by commetning on western policy than on Islamic fundamenatalism. Of course nobody wants to see these radicals in power in Iran or Palestine but I must also say the people of these countries have been given little option. The forces of secular Arab nationalism and radical Islam will always be united given the fact that the US refuses and has refused for over thirty years to deal in terms of Arab-Jewish bi-nationalism and cooperation. This is yet another truth about this conflict that has totally been whitewashed by media “analysis”. Look at media coverage of Saddam Hussein bfeore he truned against the US. Let us not forget it was your own CIA who turned a generation of Afghanis into trained killers, who so effectively used that training on September 11th. And when Septenber 11th comes aorund again dont just remeber 2001, remember 1973 also. Just to elaborate that is when your nation so altruistically overthrew democratically elected Salavdor Allende in Chile in preference for mass murderer August Pinochet. Your country has little reagrd for democracy. I think it is time we took it back.
I also cannot see where I have cited the New York Times???
I am not saying the media is government controlled either. It is not like the Soviet Union things are done much more subtly in the United States. There is a facade of diversity of opinion given while the awful truth slowly slips away to be lost in some obscure footnote, there to be found if you look but so few people will look.
I am also afraid I have only heard mainstream coverage about the Oil for food programme so I will not comment, I have to investigate for myself. However Kofi Annan is still in his position so I will assume they have dug up all of the dirt yet. I would not consider him an authority on anything really but I think under Nurmberg conditions neither Bush nor Blair would last very long. To see them hang from the neck would for me be as justifiable as seeing Eichmann or Goebbels doing the same. (Although I dont believe in capital punishment)
Posted by TonyB on Aug 14, 2006 at 6:54 AM
TonyB,
I find it instructive how our communication (or miscommunication) may be a microcosm of all forms of global news and opinion.
You said,
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 14, 2006 at 1:25 PM
All of the evidence you are putting forward to me is totally anecdotal. I am not aware of these people’s existence so this constitutes no real research whatsoever. I never denied that the Communitsts suprressed people in Eastern Europe, my own girlfriend is from Poland and grew up in that era. What I was saying, if you were listening, was their nuclear capability and their influenece on smaller countries around the world was a convenient excuse for Western governments to decimate indigenous national liberation struggles to create favourable economic climates for large corporations. I dont think you should enjoy paying a subsidy with your taxes etc. to high-technology industry and weapons manufacturers to facilitate your countries frankly grotesque actions throughout the world. Remember there is no correlation between America’s internal freedom and its external behaviour. The vast swathes of the world where your country did the same: death squads in Guatemala, Nicaragua, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Bolivia, Argentina, Paraguay, El Salvador,East Timor, Indonesia, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Jamaica, Sierra Leone, Angola, Burundi, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Brazil, Pakistan, electoral fraud in Italy and some more that elude me now. Let me know if you need more. The overestimation of the Communist threat is far more than “current popular revision”, and in fact if you study internal policy documents on Vietnam and in a wider context you will see that no serious policy planner ever perceived a major Communist threat. There was always the recoginition as you pointed out of Mutual Assured Destruction, therefore Washington was fully aware that realpolitik held sway in the Kremlin.
Your National electoral statisitics will tell you that impoverished people see no reason to vote. There is a recognition today of the fact that our governements mine and yours do not serve our interests, it is just a choice of which you want more, the big stick or the big lie? That is your only choice!!!! For example how would you feel if I told you that George W. Bush never won a Presidential election. Empirically true fact that was never reported, except for one investigative journalist who was silenced in the US with charcter assassination and ad hominem tactics i.e. Greg Palast.
It is true that the UN has no power, this is primarily because of the United States absolute veto power.
What I am proposing when I say we should take it back is a major restriction of these invisible and highly impersonal forces that guide our lives. I mean we should take Democracy back, real democracy not this diluted form of representative democracy because honestly not one of these “politicians” represent me. Particularly when elections are no longer about policy but politicians and how many children they have, if they went to war, how many babies they kissed on their campaign trail. Elections are totally stage managed, every move these people make is regulated by some backstage PR person.
The United States has never had a problem before removing Human Rights Commissioners and others for not kowtowing to US dominance within the UN.
What I was saying about Chomsky was not that his opinions are consistent, obviously his opinions are always up for debate. I am talking about his meticulous documentation of bloodbaths throughout the world. See if his documentation is inconsistent, that is what I meant. You have yourself talked about US policy in the Middle East and Central America, you surely do not need me to name these vast swathes of the world where your country has done the same.
If you do not believe that your government serves your best interest then I would advise you genuinely research how they operate. I include within that framework the media, the Public Relations Industry and big business. I am afraid your mind may have become too insular.Try to research ina broader context the inherently violent institutions of state power.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 15, 2006 at 3:58 AM
TonyB,
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 15, 2006 at 8:55 AM
The National Rifle Association???????
I am fully aware of the complexity of the real world. Again you have missed my point. I have fully researched all of the accusations put forth by people like Chomsky and Palast and came out with essentially the same conclusions. You are talking about small fringe groups manipulating our thoughts. What about the massive lobbying groups who do the same. We pay a very high mental price for the level of advertising we are forced to consume. I am aware of the obnoxious history of the Public Realtions industry including advertisers to cover-up specialists like Burson Marsteller to name just one. I feel it should be restricted at evry possible turn.
Of course the Kremlin did not look forward to being destroyed that was my point. That is why realpolitik held sway in the Kremlin. That is why the US or ate least their major policy planners never perceived a genuine threat from Moscow at least not on a global scale. (Continental perhaps, although that was generally a European and Chinese issue). I cannot see where my evidence has been anecdotal. The eveidence is there, naturally a 4000 character limit does not allow for a full exploration of the facts.
You should doubt the validity of non paper ballots as over 3 millon votes went missing in your last election. If you were black or hispanic your vote was 900 per cent more likely to be lost. Palast is also a statistician and has come up with some truly remarkable figures that are borne out by fact.
It is interesting how you use the word conspiracy for what in any other part of the world is simply recognised as institutional analysis.
You and the NRA march on the Penatgon tomorrow and demand the better world you purport to want and see how many cracked skulls you come back with. These are people who own the country, own the world, and will not let it get out of control. That nearly happened with the level of domestic dissent during the Vietnam war. However thesae institutions continue to flourish so I will assume they will continue to brush aside rural populations so Phillip Morris can grow his tobacco fields.
Anyway it has been a pleasure chatting with you and while I look forward to a response, I am afraid you need not expect one from me. I prefer to stick to the issues with research and prepare myself in courses of intellectual self-defense for thos who are willing to listen.
I am interested also to hear your comments on the vast swathes of the world where your nation has done similar if not worse things than the Soviets???
Posted by TonyB on Aug 15, 2006 at 9:32 AM
TonyB,
The National Rifle Association???????
Yes, I am a target shooter, not a hunter and I hardly EVER shoot people. :-)
——————————————-
What I meant here…
(I realize this is anecdotal again, but a lot of what you are quoting is merely anecdotal testimony which has been
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 16, 2006 at 7:56 AM
Yes the ordinary honest citizen is forbidden to own firarms in Europe generally, that is why we dont have 12,000 gun murders every year.
You missed my point about the institutional analysis. I was saying that what is construed as a conspiracy theory is often just simple analysis.
I do take much of what I get from the Internet. There are many websites dedicated to archiving extensive amounts of internal policy documents. The Avalon Project at Yale is just one but there are countless others. The Virtual Vietnam Archive and the US Diplomatic History Resources Index is another.
I do not trust any institutions what I meant by institutional analysis was analysis of the institutions not analysis by them.
Yes you have freedom of the press I never denied that, I must reiterate again that your country enjoys great personal freedom. What I am saying is its external behaviour is totally unjustifiable.
Ken Lay it is true was implicated personally in corruption, and as a consequence of this Enron went under. It was not an investigation of Enron. Yes in your country corporations are guaranteed the same rights as an individual. Is there some ambiguity in that comment. It is fact. Therefore Bectel can refuse the indigenous people of Cochabamba their basic human right to water without an individual ever being implicated. A corporation is a collection of people so one of them can never be held solely responsible.
I have not seen any overly critical commentaries on your government in any mainstream media. At least not any that does not favour the idea that US deeds were well meaning but just enacted poorly.
The media operates entirel;y differently. There is a structure to be maintained that will not allow favoured truths and dogmas to be challenged such as the fact that your country was an aggressor against South Vietnam.
Your Constitution also apparently provides for a secular state. That too went down the drain. Freedom of the Press was supposed to be regulated by people not so called representatives of them. I believe your fore fathers had a much clearer picture of democracy than the totally diluted forms imposed upon us now.
I am not familiar with the Sheridan case but I must say this rarely happens. You luckily lost libel suits as a consequence of the Civil Rights Movement.
I would like you to address my comment about your country’s behaviour
in the list I have provided. When was that in the media, and if any of it was when was the real agenda discussed. Never!!!! This really is basic stuff. As I have said media subservience to government power is one of the best supported conclusions in the social sciences. The info is there if you want to find it you can.
Take Care
Posted by TonyB on Aug 16, 2006 at 8:36 AM
Whattheheck, it
Posted by Maria on Aug 16, 2006 at 4:39 PM
TonyB,
I believe you are forming at least some of your opinions on half-truths, some by choice of site.
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 17, 2006 at 6:21 AM
The Iran-Contra affair was one small issue that fell through the cracks. Good reporters understood that in the months after this things would be more open for a while. It was the same after Watergate. I am not selecting any information I read widely on US diplomatic history. I have read from Arthur J. Schlesinger to Noam Chomsky, I find a majority to be apologetics. It is true that real objectivity can never be fully achieved that is why if I hear something said confidently I will always ask “Is that true?”. If the media operates fairly then address the figures I have provided above. We rarely, if ever, hear the story from refugees or dissenters. In fact it might be a better idea to have more dissenters on the news as given constraints of concision they will always sound as if they are “real nutcases”.
Of course you have elected representatives to regulate and discuss freedom of speech etc. howver I think it is time you ask who these people are genuinely representing. Perhaps at a Federal level some honesty remains. Take one pretty clearcut case o0f repression of ideas and freedom of research; the Monsanto Report published by two FOX reporters Jean Akre was one of them and the other name eludes me now, I can get if for you if you want. All the great investigative journalists have started off in the mainstream and when they offend the higher ups their position can become quite uncomfortable. Another example was a FOX news reporter being suspened for not making Reagan’s 90th birthday celebrations look clebratory enough. A pretty ridiculous case but a one indicative of media operation. Sure, everybody knows FOX is very biased with right wing cheerleaders like Bill O’ Reilly and Sean Hannity, even their so called liberals are amazingly conservative in their views. The charater assassination of Jesse Jackson during his Presidential campaign might be another example for you to look in to. One of the better reporters in Europe John Simpson was maliciously attacked by Tony Blair in the House of Commons because of his accurate reporting of the NATO aggression against Serbia, and of the fact that NATO bombing led to more sympathy for Milosevic than virtually any other factor. A fact well understood in the west, yet the bombing went ahead. This is also borne out by virtually every internal policy document on Kosovo before the bombing started.
The reason for the high gun murders in Northern Ireland (I live in the Republic not the North, I dont know iof you are familiar with our 800 year struggle against colonial imperialism) is the fact that many of the Paramilitary Groups after the Good Friday Agreement went into organised crime. There are so many guns in the North because of the decades of sectarian violence. They are not legally owned nor should they be.
Bush did not need any Supreme Court ruling to carry out torture. Infact method of torture have been one of your country’s main exports to sub-fascist terror regimes throughout the world since and after the Cold War. I can quote case histories until I am blue in the face I dont think it will make a difference to you. Of course I have become biased after so much research has led me to the same conclusion. I have a condition being so far out on the “left” ( whatever that term is supposed to mean) and there is a general condition on the left of being right and having empirically true fact on your side.
Hey Maria nice to see you again.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 17, 2006 at 8:41 AM
With regards to your secular state, If your atae was truly secular then you would not have any moral laws. By this I mean anti-choice abortion laws, and vice laws. Your state is secular in name only.
Posted by TonyB on Aug 17, 2006 at 8:46 AM
Maria,
Your English is far superior to my Spanish. I did study Spanish for 2 years in high school nearly 60 years ago, but with no practice it soon disappeared from memory.
I was making a stupid joke…. (:-) I have never shot anyone. If the data I sent to TonyB is at all accurate I would say that a country with 39% gun ownership has a lot more self control than people expect.
Chomsky is not really crazy he is an intellectual who lives in a dream world and believes utopia is possible. The world could be so only if all the people were gone.
Michael Moore is an opportunist. He is on the outrageous left and balances against guys like Rush Limbaugh on the extreme right. He has found a very profitable market and continues to exploit it.
I
Posted by whattheheck on Aug 18, 2006 at 5:55 AM
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Reader Comments
i wonder if laos could sue america irresponsible for what it did in laos.
UXO from WWl is still blowing up in France occasionally. I would assume a lot is out there all across Europe from WW2 as well.
Nearly 45,000 people in the US die each year in car accidents.
Let
Your connection between UXO and car crashes I must say is rather spurious. The decimation of rural indigenous populations has been a major US policy for the past 60 years and continues to this day. Perhaps there is a more fundamental question to be asked, i.e. why were these crimes perpetrated in the first place and I include the First World War in the scheme of things here also. I would also imagine instances of UXO explosions in France is minute in comparison with what is happening accross Indo-China today. Let us not forget the empirically true fact that if all post-war American Presidents were tried under the Nurmberg laws they would all have been hanged. That includes Bush!!!! I doubt the Laotian people would get very far with any attempt at legal proceedings particularly since Vietnam was forced to pay over 100 million dollars around 15 years ago just to be reintegrated into the economic system it initially tried to develop outside of. It was given a severe punishment beating for doing so and then forced to pay for it. Do we force rape victims to pay reparations to their attacker. No, we don’t!! Only on an international scale can such miscarriages take place without being reported or talked about. It is unfortunate but true nonetheless. Think before you talk whattheheck, and analyse your country’s grizzly history. I speak of course of its external behaviour. So while we may all agree on the potential for freedom being the greatest in the US, there is no correlation between its internal freedom and its external behaviour. Let us hope and pray a resolution can one day be found to this continuing worldwide problem.
Even if the Laotian people could attempt to get reparation for their human losses, it’s not about dollars, it’s about human decency. The USA has been acting for many years like a spoiled child who thinks he can break things because his rich daddy willl pay for them.
If by freedom you understand the right to say whatever you want, I think that’s not as important as listening to what others have to say and take into consideration their views. Take for instance Irak or Lebanon. Most of the world are against those wars, including a great number of American and Israeli citizens but nobody cares, they continue killing innocent people, destroying infraestructure and getting ready to interfere in the politics of Latin America by hook or by crook.
We are not impressed by the millions of dollars you boast about, or by the Pan where Green bills are cooked (funny, the name Greenspan seems to have represented that). Who controls the money your country prints to spread around the world like in a shopping spree?
No amount of money can buy respect and you are losing it at a fast pace.
Well you will surely be aware that everything revolves around money regardless of personal opinion. For instance I disagree inherently with the whole concept and believe it is the mainstay of greed. Pretty basic comments. However it was economics that will be the cause of interference in Latin American Democracy, it was economics that drove the United States into the jungles of South Vietnam. However much we may treat it with personal disdain. Therefore the bottom line in this probably terminal phase of human evolution is the dollar and the euro. It has been the deciding factor in the construction of the Axis of Evil. I am delighted that the US economy has been declining and I hope the rest of the world will follow. The sooner we can develop outside the system of greed then the sooner we can begin talking about human decency with any sense of reality. Diversity of opinion will be the mainstay of this and of course it should be respected, but it must also be informed.
Some questions re this article and replies:
Terry,
1. I didn
Thank you for the reply. Yes I can give you examples of countries that, or at least large parts of countries that have been ostensibly free from greed at least in a more communal sense. I cannot comment on individuals. I would suggest you look at the Barcelona Anarchists of the Spanish Republic who were simply crushed by Franco’s fascists. I am not writing from Italy, it is an Irish flag (green white and orange, they are similar). The Israeli Kibuzzin might be considered another example, I am not sure how true it is today but certainly before they were quite happy not to driven by greed. The Paris Commune might be another example although it was unfortuantely shortlived. There is the potential for these things to extend over a long time. Greed for me at least appears to be a product of Capitalist society rather than an inherently human trait. What can we expect from a society when the highest things one can aspire to are a plasma screen TV and Cadillac Escalades. I believe altruism is an innate human feature, the denegrations from this path I would consider also to be a social product. There is a great potential for change within each and every human being. Once we develop beyond means of greed (and it is coming quite soon I would imagine since the oil is runing out) then we can hopefully begin to explore a spiritual change that will facilitate and also contribute to a better sociey for all. I am afraid I dont understand how greed and desire for wealth has benefitted us scientifically, not in any way at least that could not have been reached through some other means. I dont believe that greed is a timeless problem in fact from my own study in archaeology I believe that prehistoric groups were a great deal more democratic and egalitarian than anything to be seen today. Things are complex I will never deny that, but try looking at the nature of the East Timorese peoples and their society before Gerry Ford, Jimmy Carter and Henry Kissinger took it upon themselves to facilitate economically , militarily and diplomatically the genocide of one third the population of that country. Again this was a case of a small nation with natural resources in abundance threatening to develop outside of the economic model sent down from on high i.e. Washington. I think you will find that they were a great deal more egalitarian, more democratic with a lot more sharing of wealth(there may be a major UXO problem there now also). I enjoy sharing also, I dont allow myself to be phased by possessions and while I may have many material things I would have no problem giving them all up for a slice of a slightly better world. I also believe that there is a deeper reason for the decline of the US economy than merely consumerism. Taking for example Iraq’s change from oil trading from dollars to euros in 2001 (Axis of Evil Member No.1), Iran quickly followed suit changing from dollars to euro denominated accounts (Axis of Evil Memer No. 2) and North Korea’s decison to do all of their commodities trading in euoros from now on (Axis of Evil Memeber No. 3). The Federal Reserve no longer has its licence to print money, as countries now actually have a choice not to do their oil trading in dollars. Excuse the length of this “comment”, I would enjoy discussing some of these things in more depth unfortunately this is the only forum I have open to talk with you.
Tony B, thank you for your wise comments. I agree with you entirely. I am sure us, humans, have many capabilities the capitalistic system is eager to crush because they are not good for profits. The Spanish Anarchists, the Paris Commune and the Isrel kibbutzs of the early days are very valuable examples of how the prevailing system has exerted pressure on any group of people trying to create a better world.
I think greed is like a disease in expansion nurtured by the models imposed upon us but not man’s true essence, and that’s what keeps me going, despite old age. Glad there are many like you to keep the torch alive.
Thakn you very much Maria. I am sure your “old age” should not be so much of an impediment to you. I am only 20, I still have to enter the workforce and when I do I am afraid I cannot promise that I will continue with my efforts.As is all too obvious work is the main system of control. I hope I can continue. Unfortunately, these capabilities are being crushed on a daily basis. Unlike Franco they no longer need tanks and guns to suppress us, they have television and public relations to do that for them. I of course speak of Western countries, people whose opinions matter. Of course too often violence is their answer. That is why unfortunately one can feel quite alone and isolated, I find it refreshing to have people with a similar emotion about our unfortunate phase of evolution.It can feel as if progress is being reversed in these days. Upon hearing of the ongoing atrocities a feeling of helplessness can on occasion overwhelm. It is quite disturbing to see so much human potential wasted on the trivialities. Anyway thank you for your kind and encouraging remarks. I will try to keep that torch going as much as I can. Eduaction is the best weapon and you are never too old to learn or inform. Thanks again. I hope we can uncover the true human essence sooner rather than later.
TonyB, Maria,
Sorry about the flag confusion. It is a bit too small to easily distinguish red from orange. (At first I thought it was a French flag which would have been off on two colors
Yes I would also like to know where Maria is also!! haha
It appears we do agree on some of the fundamenals but I must always feel that greed is a product of society. We are assuming here that history is following some sort of cyclical pattern here. We must instead assume that these are the times to be alive. The very fact we are here discussing such things means that there is something telling us that things are not right. I must say that there would be more than a mere system of restriction stopping me from taking something that did not belong to me, likewise in terms of more heinous acts like murder or rape. These must be products of a social system. Taking for example the fact that 3/4 serial killers are from the US, no offense to the US but there must be some defining factor in an American background that greater inclines you towars such acts.
Of course we will probably never fully reign greed in but I must say that we can achieve so much more. I think a civic spirit can override such inhibiting factors of people’s souls such as greed. They may always exist in some form.
Consider a newborn child as the blank slate, with innate cncepts of right and wrong. If the child is taught that it can have what it want by a winner takes all philosophy it will obviously have ill knock on effects for the future. Taking for example the amazing succes of Deweyite schools where competition was non existent, great things can be achieved under the right conditions.
Unfortunately as you rightly point out Corporations, the Corporate Lobby and Governentshave become virtually indistinguishable from one another. In fact I feel one of the most abhorrent laws in America is the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.A fanatstic principle, initially it was passed to give black people equal rights. However at this time corporations were generally small and only chartered to carry out specific functions.Corporate lawyers ensured that corporations were written into this law and they now have rights akin to that of a human being. Therefore a corporation maybe fined billions of dollars but no one person can be held responsible. As you say as corporations have become international powers in their own right (their profits sometimes exceeding poorer countries GDP) their power has spiralled out of control. We must now work to narrow these powers that these forces wield over our lives. I speak not merely of corporations but of all these invisible and mostly unnecessary forces such as government restriction, police forces. While in certain instances they are certainly required their power has gone beyond what was originally intended.
Unfortunately there are few examples of Capitalism at its best anymore. I think it is time for a change. I am a libertarian socialist so I dont think there can be much good to come from capitalism at all. I am afraid the Rags to Riches American Dream of Upward Mobility has been a construct of somebody’s imagination and I believe the figures bare that out.
Great thing should be expected of these people who govern our lives, however America consistently ranks last in infant mortality and healthcare statistics of the top 20 industrialised nations of the world.
There is a bigger picture to be seen, one of progress and one of change. Real change not the type of change these politicians speak of. They make the process sound so esoteric and mystical that one feels that to try and interefere would be a mistake. However to not get involved now would be the mistake. Mistrust of world governments is constantly on the increase, let us hope when it changes it is for the better and not just a reversion to older more antiquated forms of emotional and physical exploitation.
I hope you will excuse the length of these responses. I cannot stop once I get started. I dont know how ew got to this point from UXO, haha
Anyway thanks for listening.
Look forward to the responses.
TonyB,
I would agree with you regarding individuals born as a blank slate, but do not believe they have an innate sense of right and wrong. A child must be taught right from wrong and primarily by the parents, in my opinion. I would also disagree with Hilary Clinton
TonyB, Whattheheck, you both flatter me by wanting to know where I live. I am Argentine, but have been living in Costa Rica for the last 6 years after retirement. I chose Costa Rica because it has no army and because I wanted to enjoy nature at its best, although things are changing now with all the “progress” which sacrifices trees to build more malls. My ancestors were French, Spanish and French Basques. They worked very hard and so have I but money matters were not so important in those days and I was encouraged to read a lot, to open my mind, to be compassionate rather than greedy, to pursue knowledge rather than property.
I would suggest you to try something: talk to any unknown child in the street under 2 years old, smile at him or her, if he is eating something show him you would like to try it, and 9 out of 10 will stretch their hand and offer you a bite, which would prove human beings are not naturally selfish. A few years later, watching their parents’ attitudes toward material possessions and being pressed at schools to be competitive will thwart their natural inclination to generosity. I think cooperation, teaching a child how to think, not what to think or believe in, is superior by far to competition.
That’s all for now.
Maria,
Children:
I expect you are absolutely correct
After reading the reviews of the Griffin book I have a couple of very basic questions I would like to ask him.
Since he claims the US is in control of people who will stop at nothing to accomplish their ends:
1. Why weren
The issue of UXO in Laos has caused some controversy and diverged our views so greatly that we could hardly agree on anything. It is just because we saw and experienced things at different time, at different place, and even at different generation. It might not be easy to digest an issue. The following info may give some clearer picture of the UXO in Laos. Between 1964-1973, more than 580,000 bombing miissions were carried out, dropping more than 2 million tonnes of bombs on Laos, from south to north. The Lao popolation at that time was less than 3 million. To be precise, The Lao received about 0.67 tonnes of bombs per head. About 30 percent failed to explode. Today the population stands at 5.6 million, over 80 percent of them is engaged in subsistance farming and non-timber product collecting activities in rural remote areas. The possibility of stepping on UXO is high. Once it takes place, it is about loss of life. Since the end of the war in 1975, more than 10,000 people died of explosion. One of the causes is collecting the scraps of bombs to sell. Those unexploded are broken into pieces by collectors. There are not many lucky surviving from dismantling the bombs but they have no other choices.
Although clearing those bombs is the government’s responsibility, we are talking about the least develped country whose people’s average annual income per captia is just about a few hundreds dollars. It is hard for the government if without donors’ funding. Clearing bombs needs great resources (skilled people, technology, etc.) The country bombing Laos has done little to help remove those bombs. But it is its allies like Australian, Japan, Canada, Luxemboug, others are the ones pouring those resources instead. Where’s human decency the doer has? The US staged wars in Indochina for one reason. That is it feared of the spread of Communism over the Southeast Asia, athough Tony was right, maybe, that it was economics-driven.
Let us wish that the wars in Iraq, Lebenon, Palestine, and the rest on this planet are finished very soon to avoid the loss of life, suffering, and displacement of the innocent people.
Isaki,
Your description of the UXO problem in Laos is immense, frightening, and disheartening. Until this article I had never heard or read any mention of it. I was familiar with the still surfacing explosives in France from an article in The National Geographic magazine several years ago.
I knew a man who was involved with bomb disposal after WW2 in Europe. It is a highly skilled and dangerous process using a variety of methods depending upon the type of ordinance involved. He lived to tell about it and died an old man.
Where did you get your information? What about Vietnam and Cambodia? They must have a similar problem and if so, how are they dealing with it? I do read a lot, especially history and current events, so if I am unfamiliar with the issue I assume very few people over here are.
As for peace
whattheheck,
You can visit www.undplao.com. More info on Lao UXO is there. For the UXO history in Laos, read the book, titled “Shadow War: The Cia’s Secret War in Laos, by Kenneth Conboy. There are quite a number of books written about “the Secret War in Laos”.
I don’t know the UXO problem in Vietnam and Cambodia. I guess they might face the similar problem. For Cambodia, after the US left, the rebel Communist forces, the Khmer Rouge, led by Pot Pol, took over the country. Between 1975-1979, about 1.7 million people are believed to have been killed under Pol Pot. Countless mines had been plotted killing a large number of people. The united nations and international donors are helping the government to remove mines. Similar to Laos.
For the middle east wars, please watch this video clip http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html. just to see the different views, a lot of people in the world might have missed the history of the middle east conflicts.
I can confirm that these are also major problems in Cambodia and Vietnam. Another major problem still faced by both countries is the fact that there was also used in abundance chemical defoliants such as Agent Orange. The calculated use of these products by US forces throughout Indochina has also meant that much of the land has been left barren even to this day. Birth defects from this are also a very prevalent problem and also continue to this day.
Even now Israel are using cluster munitions against Lebanon and in Palestine, which has been strongly spoken against by Human Rights Watch. I have not read the book Isaki refers to but I would personally recommend for information on the US war throughout Indochina and throughout the world two volumes of the one book by Noam Chomsky and Edward Herman;
Political Economy of Human Rights: Volume 1 The Washington Connection and Third World Fascism
and
Political Economy of Human Rights: Volume 2 Postwar Indochina and the Reconstruction of Imperial Ideology.
Both truly shocking. We must also realise that to the “vistors” go the spoils and that vast swathes of this history has been re-written and manufactured to ensure the truth is fully suppressed. I am afraid we diverged majorly from the initial topic of this conversation as Isaki rightly pointed out. Regardless of personal belief we must realise that these are genuine issues and are happening throughout the world. It is thoroughly enjoyable to give the lesser known aspectsand uglier sides of history that we are not suppoesd to hear, however grotesque and disgusting the facts may be they are there to be read if you have the energy to look for them.
Interestingly since you mention World War 2 I would like to point out another aspect of this era that is little alked about. This is IBM’s facilitation of the holocaust. They were the ones who supplied Nazi Germany with the punch card system that allowed them to reach such startling numbers in the holocaust allowing them to catalogue each Jew individually with IBM leased (not sold) Hollerith technology. The leasing of the technology because each month an IBM engineer had to go and service these machines many of which were found on site in places like Aushwitz and Dachau. In fact it was not simply IBM. The most abhorrent feature of this is IBM’s removal of the profits after the war was over. In fact during the depression foreign investment went down everywhere in Europe except for one place; Nazi Germany where US investment went up 48.5 per cent from Hitler’s assumption of power up to 1940 including companies like IBM, Ford, ITT, International Harvester and so on. The simple reason for this is becaue Nazi Germany could provide a world still free of Trade Unions where there would be a “favourable investment climate”.
This is why the United States and others found themselves in the jungles of South Vietnam and using revolutionary counter terror in South America and Asia creating a culture of terrorism where populations are simply beaten into line to ensure favourable economic climates for the people our governments really serve.
Also on your comment about simply assassinating dissenting voices whattheheck, I have not heard of the Griffin book you refer to but I will attempt to make an educated guess. American government and big business will forever have their media monopoly. It is possible to draw unnecessary attention by simply murdering dissenters. However the media can simply use character assassination as they have tried unsuccessfully to do with Noam Chomsky for the past forty years.
There is so much unknown history that people will never be aware of. Work as I have said is the main system of control. Work, as we know it today, was called for centuries wage slavery. If you return from work one evening you do not begin research projects on UXO or US investment history or any other grotesque feature of history.
Isaki,
I
I will finish with this. Chomsky’s popularity is backed up by his hard cold fact. He has been writing for forty years and any factual error has been corrected by himself. If you consider him ” a real nut” then I just cannot respond. His clarity of thought and exposition cannot be faulted. If you consider him so then I must merely say you have not investigated his statements or his ideas. The New York Times said about him he is “arguably the most important intellectual alive”. You will see this on every book he has written, however as he himself pointed out this was a publishers blurb as the article goes on to say if thisd is so how can he say such terrible things about US Foreign Policy. He then further said if it was not for the second lne he would begin to think he was doing something wrong. He writes about these things because we need to be responsible for the predictable consequences of our own actions primarily. If it is your government supplying weapons to maim and kill in a war that has bewen described by Kofi Annan as illegal, in Palestine, in Lebanon, in Iraq and all over the world.
I dont know what rights of the Jews are being contravened???
IBM have denied this but if you look into this I am sure you will see that IBM’s main business was not seeling technology, it was leasing technology. Take also for example the fact that Sony/EMI’s main business is not the music industry it is weapons development.
History has been rweritten. Taking as just one example in my own country; our government recently had a military parade to remeber the 1916 Rising against British imperialism. This was hilarious for me as my governments policies economic and foreign are a total betrayal of what was fought for in 1916. This was just a minor domestic example of the manufacture of history to suit a poltical end. Our government always finds a way to stir up irrational feelings of national pride and nationalistic jingoism at election time. Conveniently!!!!
IBM maintenance of the machines is historical fact. The only major book written on this topic is by a man called Edwin Black. It is very meticulous. IBM of course denied it and everybody was satisfied after that, no need for any further investigation despite the fact that IBM were the target if the allegations. Once they deny it people are satisfied.
I think you drastically underestimate the reach of the people who shape public thought and public action. Media and intelligentsia subservience to state power is one of the best supported conclusions in the social sciences. I dont know who told you Chomsky is a real nut but I would suggest you try pick up one of his books and see if his documentation is inconsistent. 90 per cent of his sources are Human Rights reports, Church Group reports, AI reports and official policy documents.
Two examples and then I will leave you in peace (haha)
FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting) commissioned a study of the political talkshow Nightline. They surveyed 40 months of Nightline (865 shows). Of 1530 US guests:
92% were white
89% were male
80% were Professionals, Government Officials or Corporate Representatives.
Figures in 1992:
In the United States there are:
7 major movie studios
1,800 Daily Newspapers
11,000 Magazines
11,000 Radios Stations
2,000 TV Stations
2,500 Book Publishers
23 Corporations own over 50 per cent of the business in EACH medium, in some cases they retain a virtual monopoly.
This constitutes a ridiculously narrow “spectrum of opinion”. What kind of view would you reasonably expect to come out of these media???
Anyway those are the figures, reach your own conclusion.
This restriction of chracters is annoying. My email address is barrettanthony@hotmail.com if you would like to discuss these things in further detail. It is a secondary email address of mine so I dont mind telling it to you here. If you email me I can give you my primary one.
TonyB,
The problem with writers like Chomsky is there is always some part of their argument which the reader can relate to as truth. Then, just as when we read something which we see as blatantly false, we tend to accept or reject the whole premise.
If he were to slip in an example involving little green men from Mars, we would dump it all. The difficulty comes when ideas are at least plausible and are often repeated. With the advent of the internet this problem is multiplied beyond simple verification since we seldom know the original source or the underlying motive.
While investment surely was an aspect US involvement in Vietnam was slow to evolve and far more complex. Some just plain stupid decisions and assumptions were made by the US and they were followed by a covering of lies. Politicians see admission of a mistake as the kiss of death.
The expansionist policies of the Soviet Communists we saw in Europe gave plausibility to the
I must reply by saying Chomsky’s ideas are pro-US. His ideas depend on a recognition that your government and mine do not serve our interests, his hopes are pinned on the citizenry of the US. To simply disregard him with ad hominem tactics such as calling him a nutcase do no justice to anybody. I would implore you to give him a chance and see if inconsistencies are there. I do not know what parts of Chomsky’s arguments have turned you away from him so fervently, his books are for not just the head but the heart. Some deceny is required from us all to realise our full potential as human beings. You cannot be proud of your government just as I am not proud of mine. I am proud of my country and its history. He has constantly reiterated the fact that the US has the most potential for change. On the comment of selling books, Chomsky himself already had a very comfortable life through his groundbreaking work in linguistics. His turn to dissent in 1964 was a very conscious one for him indeed. Of course I find it very difficult to remain objective given the fact that I have realised so many uncomfortable truths about our society in my studies in US foreign diplomacy and even my studies in archaeology.
Let us also not forget that there was a fully accepted resolution to the situation in Vietnam in the form of the 1954 Geneva Accords which if adherred to by the US would have meant that there would have been no need for the decimation of the rural peasants of Indochina, or has that been removed also?? As Orwell wrote and you rightly point out “He who controls the past controls the future, he who controls the present controls the past”
US bad policy does not begin or end with Vietnam or Indochina, it has been repeated throughout the Middle East and Central America as well as Asia and continues today. I am afraid that the idea that policy is inherently altruistic and it was simply enacted poorly is too much to swallow. There is constantly a rise in domestic repression where the US gets involved. There is a bigger picture of which Vietnam was a part, but it has been enacted throughout the US spheres of influence. The Communist myth was simply one of convenience for the US. The bombardment and subsequent invasion of South Vietnam had to be accompanied by the bombing of the North to maintain the myth that there was some Communist behemoth to be opposed. I dont think the Communist threat was ever perceived seriously by any serious policy planner. I feel this is borne out by the fact that US military budget increased massively even after the fall of the “evil empire”. It is true that the Soviets carved up Eastern Europe, but there is vast swathes of the world where the US was doing the same. I ostensibly agree with what honest Abe had to say but in the majority sense they have fooled the people. However I think this is changing somewhat. I find opinion polls from your country bare this out also. Few people believe that your govenment is taking you anywhere meaningful, exploring human potential and the limits of democracy and cooperation. The impoverished people of your nation dont vote, those who have slipped through the cracks of your system hve been totally disenfranchised from the democratic process and it is a shame.
It is true Israel is under threat from Iran and other Arab nations. However there is a reason for this. “Why do they hate us???”. A question so frequently asked but rarely ever answered. In an email I recently wrote to Kofi Annan I pointed out that perhaps these countries could have been much more easily appeased if they had reamined secular democracies as Iran was in 1953. The fact is that the US has been providing crucial strategic military, diplomatic and economic aid to continue bombarding Arab nations. I agree no more with somebody like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as I do with George Bush. However as a wetsern observer I feel I can impact more by commetning on western policy than on Islamic fundamenatalism. Of course nobody wants to see these radicals in power in Iran or Palestine but I must also say the people of these countries have been given little option. The forces of secular Arab nationalism and radical Islam will always be united given the fact that the US refuses and has refused for over thirty years to deal in terms of Arab-Jewish bi-nationalism and cooperation. This is yet another truth about this conflict that has totally been whitewashed by media “analysis”. Look at media coverage of Saddam Hussein bfeore he truned against the US. Let us not forget it was your own CIA who turned a generation of Afghanis into trained killers, who so effectively used that training on September 11th. And when Septenber 11th comes aorund again dont just remeber 2001, remember 1973 also. Just to elaborate that is when your nation so altruistically overthrew democratically elected Salavdor Allende in Chile in preference for mass murderer August Pinochet. Your country has little reagrd for democracy. I think it is time we took it back.
I also cannot see where I have cited the New York Times???
I am not saying the media is government controlled either. It is not like the Soviet Union things are done much more subtly in the United States. There is a facade of diversity of opinion given while the awful truth slowly slips away to be lost in some obscure footnote, there to be found if you look but so few people will look.
I am also afraid I have only heard mainstream coverage about the Oil for food programme so I will not comment, I have to investigate for myself. However Kofi Annan is still in his position so I will assume they have dug up all of the dirt yet. I would not consider him an authority on anything really but I think under Nurmberg conditions neither Bush nor Blair would last very long. To see them hang from the neck would for me be as justifiable as seeing Eichmann or Goebbels doing the same. (Although I dont believe in capital punishment)
TonyB,
I find it instructive how our communication (or miscommunication) may be a microcosm of all forms of global news and opinion.
You said,
All of the evidence you are putting forward to me is totally anecdotal. I am not aware of these people’s existence so this constitutes no real research whatsoever. I never denied that the Communitsts suprressed people in Eastern Europe, my own girlfriend is from Poland and grew up in that era. What I was saying, if you were listening, was their nuclear capability and their influenece on smaller countries around the world was a convenient excuse for Western governments to decimate indigenous national liberation struggles to create favourable economic climates for large corporations. I dont think you should enjoy paying a subsidy with your taxes etc. to high-technology industry and weapons manufacturers to facilitate your countries frankly grotesque actions throughout the world. Remember there is no correlation between America’s internal freedom and its external behaviour. The vast swathes of the world where your country did the same: death squads in Guatemala, Nicaragua, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Bolivia, Argentina, Paraguay, El Salvador,East Timor, Indonesia, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Jamaica, Sierra Leone, Angola, Burundi, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Somalia, Brazil, Pakistan, electoral fraud in Italy and some more that elude me now. Let me know if you need more. The overestimation of the Communist threat is far more than “current popular revision”, and in fact if you study internal policy documents on Vietnam and in a wider context you will see that no serious policy planner ever perceived a major Communist threat. There was always the recoginition as you pointed out of Mutual Assured Destruction, therefore Washington was fully aware that realpolitik held sway in the Kremlin.
Your National electoral statisitics will tell you that impoverished people see no reason to vote. There is a recognition today of the fact that our governements mine and yours do not serve our interests, it is just a choice of which you want more, the big stick or the big lie? That is your only choice!!!! For example how would you feel if I told you that George W. Bush never won a Presidential election. Empirically true fact that was never reported, except for one investigative journalist who was silenced in the US with charcter assassination and ad hominem tactics i.e. Greg Palast.
It is true that the UN has no power, this is primarily because of the United States absolute veto power.
What I am proposing when I say we should take it back is a major restriction of these invisible and highly impersonal forces that guide our lives. I mean we should take Democracy back, real democracy not this diluted form of representative democracy because honestly not one of these “politicians” represent me. Particularly when elections are no longer about policy but politicians and how many children they have, if they went to war, how many babies they kissed on their campaign trail. Elections are totally stage managed, every move these people make is regulated by some backstage PR person.
The United States has never had a problem before removing Human Rights Commissioners and others for not kowtowing to US dominance within the UN.
What I was saying about Chomsky was not that his opinions are consistent, obviously his opinions are always up for debate. I am talking about his meticulous documentation of bloodbaths throughout the world. See if his documentation is inconsistent, that is what I meant. You have yourself talked about US policy in the Middle East and Central America, you surely do not need me to name these vast swathes of the world where your country has done the same.
If you do not believe that your government serves your best interest then I would advise you genuinely research how they operate. I include within that framework the media, the Public Relations Industry and big business. I am afraid your mind may have become too insular.Try to research ina broader context the inherently violent institutions of state power.
TonyB,
The National Rifle Association???????
I am fully aware of the complexity of the real world. Again you have missed my point. I have fully researched all of the accusations put forth by people like Chomsky and Palast and came out with essentially the same conclusions. You are talking about small fringe groups manipulating our thoughts. What about the massive lobbying groups who do the same. We pay a very high mental price for the level of advertising we are forced to consume. I am aware of the obnoxious history of the Public Realtions industry including advertisers to cover-up specialists like Burson Marsteller to name just one. I feel it should be restricted at evry possible turn.
Of course the Kremlin did not look forward to being destroyed that was my point. That is why realpolitik held sway in the Kremlin. That is why the US or ate least their major policy planners never perceived a genuine threat from Moscow at least not on a global scale. (Continental perhaps, although that was generally a European and Chinese issue). I cannot see where my evidence has been anecdotal. The eveidence is there, naturally a 4000 character limit does not allow for a full exploration of the facts.
You should doubt the validity of non paper ballots as over 3 millon votes went missing in your last election. If you were black or hispanic your vote was 900 per cent more likely to be lost. Palast is also a statistician and has come up with some truly remarkable figures that are borne out by fact.
It is interesting how you use the word conspiracy for what in any other part of the world is simply recognised as institutional analysis.
You and the NRA march on the Penatgon tomorrow and demand the better world you purport to want and see how many cracked skulls you come back with. These are people who own the country, own the world, and will not let it get out of control. That nearly happened with the level of domestic dissent during the Vietnam war. However thesae institutions continue to flourish so I will assume they will continue to brush aside rural populations so Phillip Morris can grow his tobacco fields.
Anyway it has been a pleasure chatting with you and while I look forward to a response, I am afraid you need not expect one from me. I prefer to stick to the issues with research and prepare myself in courses of intellectual self-defense for thos who are willing to listen.
I am interested also to hear your comments on the vast swathes of the world where your nation has done similar if not worse things than the Soviets???
TonyB,
The National Rifle Association???????
Yes, I am a target shooter, not a hunter and I hardly EVER shoot people. :-)
——————————————-
What I meant here…
(I realize this is anecdotal again, but a lot of what you are quoting is merely anecdotal testimony which has been
Yes the ordinary honest citizen is forbidden to own firarms in Europe generally, that is why we dont have 12,000 gun murders every year.
You missed my point about the institutional analysis. I was saying that what is construed as a conspiracy theory is often just simple analysis.
I do take much of what I get from the Internet. There are many websites dedicated to archiving extensive amounts of internal policy documents. The Avalon Project at Yale is just one but there are countless others. The Virtual Vietnam Archive and the US Diplomatic History Resources Index is another.
I do not trust any institutions what I meant by institutional analysis was analysis of the institutions not analysis by them.
Yes you have freedom of the press I never denied that, I must reiterate again that your country enjoys great personal freedom. What I am saying is its external behaviour is totally unjustifiable.
Ken Lay it is true was implicated personally in corruption, and as a consequence of this Enron went under. It was not an investigation of Enron. Yes in your country corporations are guaranteed the same rights as an individual. Is there some ambiguity in that comment. It is fact. Therefore Bectel can refuse the indigenous people of Cochabamba their basic human right to water without an individual ever being implicated. A corporation is a collection of people so one of them can never be held solely responsible.
I have not seen any overly critical commentaries on your government in any mainstream media. At least not any that does not favour the idea that US deeds were well meaning but just enacted poorly.
The media operates entirel;y differently. There is a structure to be maintained that will not allow favoured truths and dogmas to be challenged such as the fact that your country was an aggressor against South Vietnam.
Your Constitution also apparently provides for a secular state. That too went down the drain. Freedom of the Press was supposed to be regulated by people not so called representatives of them. I believe your fore fathers had a much clearer picture of democracy than the totally diluted forms imposed upon us now.
I am not familiar with the Sheridan case but I must say this rarely happens. You luckily lost libel suits as a consequence of the Civil Rights Movement.
I would like you to address my comment about your country’s behaviour
in the list I have provided. When was that in the media, and if any of it was when was the real agenda discussed. Never!!!! This really is basic stuff. As I have said media subservience to government power is one of the best supported conclusions in the social sciences. The info is there if you want to find it you can.
Take Care
Whattheheck, it
TonyB,
I believe you are forming at least some of your opinions on half-truths, some by choice of site.
The Iran-Contra affair was one small issue that fell through the cracks. Good reporters understood that in the months after this things would be more open for a while. It was the same after Watergate. I am not selecting any information I read widely on US diplomatic history. I have read from Arthur J. Schlesinger to Noam Chomsky, I find a majority to be apologetics. It is true that real objectivity can never be fully achieved that is why if I hear something said confidently I will always ask “Is that true?”. If the media operates fairly then address the figures I have provided above. We rarely, if ever, hear the story from refugees or dissenters. In fact it might be a better idea to have more dissenters on the news as given constraints of concision they will always sound as if they are “real nutcases”.
Of course you have elected representatives to regulate and discuss freedom of speech etc. howver I think it is time you ask who these people are genuinely representing. Perhaps at a Federal level some honesty remains. Take one pretty clearcut case o0f repression of ideas and freedom of research; the Monsanto Report published by two FOX reporters Jean Akre was one of them and the other name eludes me now, I can get if for you if you want. All the great investigative journalists have started off in the mainstream and when they offend the higher ups their position can become quite uncomfortable. Another example was a FOX news reporter being suspened for not making Reagan’s 90th birthday celebrations look clebratory enough. A pretty ridiculous case but a one indicative of media operation. Sure, everybody knows FOX is very biased with right wing cheerleaders like Bill O’ Reilly and Sean Hannity, even their so called liberals are amazingly conservative in their views. The charater assassination of Jesse Jackson during his Presidential campaign might be another example for you to look in to. One of the better reporters in Europe John Simpson was maliciously attacked by Tony Blair in the House of Commons because of his accurate reporting of the NATO aggression against Serbia, and of the fact that NATO bombing led to more sympathy for Milosevic than virtually any other factor. A fact well understood in the west, yet the bombing went ahead. This is also borne out by virtually every internal policy document on Kosovo before the bombing started.
The reason for the high gun murders in Northern Ireland (I live in the Republic not the North, I dont know iof you are familiar with our 800 year struggle against colonial imperialism) is the fact that many of the Paramilitary Groups after the Good Friday Agreement went into organised crime. There are so many guns in the North because of the decades of sectarian violence. They are not legally owned nor should they be.
Bush did not need any Supreme Court ruling to carry out torture. Infact method of torture have been one of your country’s main exports to sub-fascist terror regimes throughout the world since and after the Cold War. I can quote case histories until I am blue in the face I dont think it will make a difference to you. Of course I have become biased after so much research has led me to the same conclusion. I have a condition being so far out on the “left” ( whatever that term is supposed to mean) and there is a general condition on the left of being right and having empirically true fact on your side.
Hey Maria nice to see you again.
With regards to your secular state, If your atae was truly secular then you would not have any moral laws. By this I mean anti-choice abortion laws, and vice laws. Your state is secular in name only.
Maria,
Your English is far superior to my Spanish. I did study Spanish for 2 years in high school nearly 60 years ago, but with no practice it soon disappeared from memory.
I was making a stupid joke…. (:-) I have never shot anyone. If the data I sent to TonyB is at all accurate I would say that a country with 39% gun ownership has a lot more self control than people expect.
Chomsky is not really crazy he is an intellectual who lives in a dream world and believes utopia is possible. The world could be so only if all the people were gone.
Michael Moore is an opportunist. He is on the outrageous left and balances against guys like Rush Limbaugh on the extreme right. He has found a very profitable market and continues to exploit it.
I
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