I think its sad that so many people would rather attack Michael Moore personally, or debate his presentation style, than debate the content of what he said. There is very little debate as to whether or not the President is lying to us. People should not line up behind the President even if we are at war. Even if my candidate Ralph Nader were President, I would not stop second guessing him. But at least I would feel confident in his integrity and that his Rooseveltian ethics would bring greater justice to America. I’m afraid the newfound and widespread ignorance of Americans will bring further harm to our country.
Posted by Olav on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:00 PM
It was refreshing to see the other side of the Michael Moore story. It was so confusing to watch the standing ovation his film received, then hear the booing. There was no way these two reactions could have come from the same crowd. Michael Moore is one of the most courageous film makers working today and it is a testament to his genius that Bowling for Columbine received not only critical aclaim, but box office success. America is much more in alignment with Moore than the mainstream press would like to believe.
Posted by Sandra Williams on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:02 PM
Tim,
Alot of people on this site have pointed out that we supplied Saddam with all sorts of weapons in the 1980’s. True fact! He was an ally at the time. International relations change. We have been allied with, or arrayed against, almost every country in this world throughout our history. This is true of most nations. Just because Saddam was an ally 15-20 years ago makes us wrong now?
You make a VERY good point about the criteria for deciding which thugs or tyrants to go after and to be honest I don’t have an answer for you. I regret those decisions are probably based more on politics than they are on ethics and morality - and this is very sad indeed.
Please don’t play the war for oil card, though. I can poke holes in that argument all day long, as I have already done on this site a number of times.
All I can say, Tim, is that it’s probably a good thing I’m not president, because I would go after ALL the thugs and tyrants in this world and replace them with governments of the people, by the people, and for the people - especially the children. That may sound naive and ideological, but I’ll stand by it.
Don’t you find it remarkable that people on both sides of this argument bring up the children to help prove their point?
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:07 PM
I loved the blunt yet realistic honesty of Michael’s speech. I only hope that people in the public eye keep up the fight for peace, justice and above all else truth. It is our right and we can not be silenced!
Posted by jeannine hibbard on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:07 PM
Tom(from Denver):
Your quote: “But what is the alternative? We tried to make this work by going through the defunct and obsolete United Nations.”
—-What, exactly, did we “try to make work” through the UN?
To disarm Iraq of WMDs, correct? (resolution 1441) How does removing Iraq’s weapons serve the starving and dying Iraqi people we are talking about helping?
I don’t think you can have it both ways, Tom… You can’t claim on one hand that this war is about “liberating Iraqis from a tyrant”, when the UN initiatives were not directed at regime change at all, but rather at limiting Iraq’s proliferation of WMDs.
ps—-> I love your city… I did some religious studies up in Estes Park back in 1992, and I’d often spend time in both Denver and Boulder…
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:12 PM
Michael Moore gives me back some faith in this country I can honestly say I almost completely lost when Bush was “elected”. As long as we have voices like that out there there may be a little hope for this country in the face of our present silent military coup.
Posted by graceann Smith on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:16 PM
Tim,
You’ve got me on my toes this afternoon! Some interesting and tough questions in your last posting.
I will try to address them from home this evening over cocktails.
Denver is a beautiful city, my hometown. I’m glad to be raising my family here. I’ve never been to Canada….
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:17 PM
can’t turn the page
Posted by anon on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:20 PM
Tom (from Denver):
I don’t really understand. You acknowledge that decisions about who to invade “..are probably based more on politics than they are on ethics and morality…,” and yet you simultaneously discredit the “war about oil” argument.
I need some clarification. What, exactly, do you mean when you refer to “political” motivation?
In my dictionary, “politics” is about “...competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power…”
What, if not natural resources, is the “political” motivation behind invading Iraq, and not some other country?
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:25 PM
Tom (from Denver):
I’m glad you’ve got those family obligations! That means I can pull myself away from this monitor and get some of the ponderous marking done I’ve brought home for my Spring Break. (The joys of being a teacher!)
I’ll be back tonight to continue this discussion… (‘Might even join you for a drink, though my “lenten resolve” forbids me from drinking alone!... Let’s say that if we’re actively involved in this discussion, I’m not “technically” alone, then, shall we?)
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:29 PM
Michael Moore is an inspiration ....
How can so many Americans attack free speech? Australians wish they had the supposed rights and freedoms of Americans ... we don’t even have a bill of rights! When did Iraq ever attack the US? If he’s got WMD didn’t the US and Europe give them to him to fight the Iranians? There are more brutal and totalitarian regimes than Saddams that are supported by the USA! The West would collapse in an instant if democracy ever really broke out worldwide! Won’t attacking Saddam give him even more reason to equip the “terrorists” with WMD? The US cannot survive politically from the heavy casualties it will receive trying to keep Iraq “pacified”! Remember history, Lebanon was less than 1000 dead G.I.s! Good luck remaining the land of the free when 100 Osamas begin the jihad and if this crap keeps up remember there are less than 300 million of you and 6.2 Billion of us!
Bush and his string pullers can’t kill everyone! The hypocrisy of governments is, as ever, mind bogglingly maddening!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Alan on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:34 PM
Spike, hey, man, you’re right. To want to keep it lite…That’s also what I’d really like…
But see here, man, you know it’s tough to get all of the shit thoughts out…Sorta morphs into a shout…and yeah, I do use many words because I really don’t talk much. I’m just a love-life painter who’s tired of this WAR stuff. I’ve had just about enuf! Just tryin’ to DRUM the bottom line…War is murder and that ain’t fine…or funny, or noble; or heroic ‘cause some of us can’t understand that the BOTTOM LINE is all it’s all about. So, I sure do wish I could be clear as ice but even if I was…They’d still be stuck in their personal mental rut… and REALLY don’t care what the Pres&CO;. does. I’m cool, man but you know what…maybe that’s the mood that got us in THIS lot. So, here’s good bye and I hope some will grow…I gotta go groove on the UNIVERSAL show.
Posted by Dominick on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:57 PM
That guy from Kansas has been to Iraq, I’m guessing. He seems to know first-hand what a horror it is to live under the tyranny of Sadaam. Well, that may be true, I’ve never been so I can’t corroborate the continual negative propaganda about him. But, all of that doesn’t matter anyway. You missed the point, Kansas. Sadaam is a head of state and is probably skiing in the Swiss Alps right about now while we’re wiping out hundreds of thousands of his subjects along with sacrificing who knows how many of our people. Don’t you get it? It’s like all the other Tyrants who seem to live forever while thier people are slaughtered to make THEIR country safe for democray. Let’s try to make OURS safe for democracy, Kansas…but then, you probably think you’re just like Dubbya and won’t get locked up if his pit bulls don’t like something you may say off the cuff. Think it’s not happening here? How the hell would you know, have you said anything that might offend Dubbya and Company? Take a look at what happens to people who do…there are plenty of websites that focus on the police brutality and subsequent incarceration of those who also thought they could speak THEIR minds in a democracy. So, my advice to you is, keep towin’ that Dubbya line, you’ll be fine…at least for a while.
Posted by Dom on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:14 PM
This is one of the best forums I found on the net about the pros and cons of the war on iraq, from both ignorant and clear-thinking people, from both within America and without.
And guess what, the enthusiastic postings on this forum came about because one man, Michael Moore, an admittedly physically-unattractive but talented documentary-maker, made the war the focus of his Oscars acceptance speech.
So rather than bash MM for using his ‘15 minutes of fame’ for self-aggrandisement as some suggested (and which in my opinion, he hadn’t - not only did his simple message contained nothing that could be described as vainglorious, but that he delivered his short speech while sharing the podium with the rest of nominated documentary-makers - how can that be conceived of as a show for one-upmanship??) - we (all of us, whether pro-/anti-war) should be grateful that MM has helped spark a debate on the merits/demerits of the war on Iraq. Now of course, for some people the mere suggestion of a debate on the war is tantamount to behaving unpatriotically. To these people, no matter how much they claim they are ‘American’ and love their country, they really do not yet grasp what is meant to be unique and great about America - that it is built on democratic ideals, that it encourages freedom of speech, that it promotes tolerance and understanding amongst people from diverse backgrounds who happen to live together in pursuit of the ‘American dream’. That *is* the ‘American way of life’ that should be protected. Not blind adherence to a President or his administration just because they are in office. Sure, Bush Jr. may or may not have been democratically elected, but what’s even more crucial than his election provenance is whether or not his adminstration, while in office, enshrines the democratic principles in their operation.
Evidence so far has suggested otherwise. Th war on Iraq is a completely unilateral action taken by the U.S. in complete disregard to the United Nations and worldwide opinions. (For those of you less literate ‘unilateral action’ means action endorsed/undertaken by one nation; rather than stemming from a worldwide consensus). Sure Britain, Spain, and Australia agreed. But that’s the extent of the ‘coalition of the willing’ on a globe that has more than eighty countries.
- to be continued -
Posted by Mandy Lee on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:17 PM
In fact, just as many prominant countries - France, Germany, Russia, China formally opposed it, and it is clear that there was never a majority on the UN Security Council even if the U.S. had the guts to apply for the second resolution. Even amongst the nations within the ‘coalition of the willing’ itself, popular opinions are overwhelmingly anti-war.
If the Bush administration is serious about its American way of life - i.e. democratic ideals - then it should be more alarmed about the fact that its actions are opposed by many countries around the world and by a significant portion of its own people. Rather than blithely brushing aside criticisms of its actions as either quips from ‘old Europe’ (as Rumsfeld insultingly called the French and the Germans), or branding its own concerned citizens as ‘unpatriotic’ and ‘unAmerican’, a truly democratically committed U.S. government should have encouraged diversity in the debates on the war and try to build consensus through dialogue. Unfortunately, what we have witnessed so far from the American media has been anything but. As an example, I was personally amazed, when Condoleeza Rice was on CBS News talking about the justifications of a war just after the worldwide anti-war protest in February, that the CBS anchor only asked one question, ‘as a footnote’, at the very end of the interview, of what the administration thinks about the worldwide disapproval of the U.S. urge to war. How can we have serious debate on an issue as important as a war when the prominent American media shied away from engaging in proper, not to mention tough, questioning? In the UK, the Sky News channel broadcasts its own news interpersed with live coverage from CBS news, and it is instructive, when reporting on the Hans Blix report, that the CBS news (already not as propaganda-fanning as Fox News) ‘s take on the report only highlighted what Colin Powell took from it, whilst the reporter at the same time had the cheek to comment that the French media only mentioned what it considered fodder for its anti-war arguments.
- to be continued -
Posted by Mandy Lee on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:18 PM
It is this near media black-out on alternative voices, that people like Michael Moore are respected for publicly voicing their own views that doesn’t toe the official government’s line. You can argue that MM is doing this for his own glory, you can argue that his argument is completely bullshit, you can even argue (as some did) that he should spend his energy exercising his gut rather than his larynx box, and you can further make disparaging comments that nobody likes what he says anyway. But what you can’t take away is the fact that Michael Moore, like other handful of outspoken public figures before him, is making a valuable contribution to the American way of life by exercising one of the most sacred democratic ideals - freedom of speech - and to do so publicly so that his fellow American citizens know it’s not only okay, but great, to speak one’s mind even as the country is supposed to be united at war times. It is precisely because the war is meant to be about the protection of democracy (in fact, supposedly about bringing democracy to other countries) that we must not first lose sight of what true democracy means.
Posted by Mandy Lee on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:18 PM
Thank you Ric for all the information on “Scull and bones” Another good read in the same vein is David Icke’s new book “Alice in Wonderland and the world Trade Disaster”. Another brave man ( like MM) who is ready to stand up and be counted. Anyone who has questions or doubt about the twin towers should read this.
I salute and respect you Michael for your courage and guts, in standing away from the herd in spite of all the negativity that is hurled your way….....A very brave man
Posted by mary on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:25 PM
Mr. Moore voiced what so many of us are thinking…..and thank you for that!
Posted by Lori on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:30 PM
God Bless Michael Moore. Finally an American that realizes we don’t live in Nazi Germany as Bush would have us believe. For all these people saying “he got his fifteen minutes of fame” I’ve got news for you he’s been around a long time and he’ll be around a lot longer. He’s had a book on the bestseller list for a year, world-renound movies so pull your head out of Rush Limbaugh’s ass and wake up. Every America has the right to speak out, more like the obligation to speak out.
Posted by torsoul on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:34 PM
To Shelley who wrote: “These anti-war comments are horrible. Those troops are sacrificing their lives for us while we sit here on our cushy butts and bad mouth them. Shame on you. Why don’t you do something? Pick up litter, help the homeless, send care packages. the Oscars had its lowest television audience in 30 years? And to our troops, Open up a can of WHOOP-ASS!! by: Shelley from Texas”
My heart goes out to you. I appreciate the emotion behind your reply to the anti-war posts. Please know that just because I am against this war doesn’t mean I don’t support the troops. I support them enough to want to have them returned home—ALIVE.
I believe that the solidiers fighting today feel they are protecting the liberties we have in America & UK. However, most soldiers enlisted are people of color or the poor who could not afford a college education without military endenturment.
The War with Iraq is not about protecting civil freedoms but what Bush stated “maintaining our sacred American lifestyle” to drive SUVs with cheap gasoline.
I am a mother. I would rather walk to the market and go without cheap gas than know that the fuel that powers my car are children all over Iraq dying—it is one thing to bomb innocent children. But it is another to starve them for ten years with these sanctions and then bomb them to their deaths.
Bush is also creating an early campaign for re-“election” by using this war. Why Blaire is dipping his hand into Bush’s bloodbath is most curious. Maybe someone in England can explain this one.
And, about those troops—I am a relief worker for disaster services and send messages from mothers to their children in the 1st Marine Division. I send care packages to the troops and counsel families who are distraught about being without Dad in the house. It is TRAUMATIC for these families to be broken up just so that the war can secure America cheap gas.
As for the Oscars—who cares about the Oscars—it’s all pomp and pageantry, a white guy show, nothing of substance—if you want substance, go to Cannes or the Sundance Film Festivles.
As for “open up a can of whoop ass”—I don’t know what that means. Is that something scatalogical you’re alluding?
All the best, Louise
Posted by Louise on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:27 PM
All White Americans are stupid as Moore said. They thought they are the police of the world. Shame on all Americans.
Posted by stupid american on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:29 PM
Michael Moore is a man who believes in freedom… who only wants peace and loves democracy. I would let him represent me any day.
Posted by Stalin Jr. on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:43 PM
Nice one! I as well was so glad that Michael won the Oscar for his fantastic documentary. I cheered him on in my lounge room in Sydney as he spoke the blatant truth in front of all the movie stars in the audience, some of whom have the conscience and intelligence to realise what is happening to their country and the world and to speak out against it. Michael is truly a voice for the average citizen of the World. Good on ya mate!
Posted by Kristina Bodewes on Apr 1, 2003 at 8:24 PM
To Mr Snodgrass:
How does the issue of diet and excercise enter into an intelligent political debate? Are you actually trying to say that George W. is better that Michael Moore because he’s thinner? Are you forgetting that George W. does not even posses the most basic knowledge of the English language? He can’t construct basic sentences. He constantly flubbs his words. We are talking about the man who actually said that Saddam “tried to kill my daddy”. That really speaks volumes about a Yale education.
The fact that Michael Moore only attended one year of community college is of absolutely no consequence. He is an intelligent man who speaks the truth. It is all documented and meticulously researched. Oh-and do you know what else is documented? The fact that George W. bought his way into Yale, and beat out more deserving candidates to do it.
Posted by HLH on Apr 1, 2003 at 8:50 PM
This story began when the we became a nation. This tale of strugle between the forces of frightened Greed, Power-lust, and mendacity against Nature, (the people)...Great men like, The Native Americans, Emerson and Thoreau, Whitman, Henry Miller, W.B.E. Dubois, Martin Luther King, who tried to wake the somnambulist majority up to the fact that the poisonous underbelly which lies well-hidden and disguised, serpent-like in the pit of the American Dream would one day not only crush all of who and what is good about America…but that America would bring the rest of the world down into the fiery guts of hell along with it. 1963, November 22…The first day of the sunset and eclipse of the Ideal of America. The day the murderous phantoms decided their time had arrived. That from the moment John Kennedy was pronounced dead…Dead too were any fuzzy commie ideals about the brotherhood of man and World Peace. The calculated, inexorable works of the corruptors behind the scenes began its well-formulated process of complete takeover. Look back in Shame, everyone. for we are all complicit in the complete meltdown of the last forty years. We swallowed whole the Specterian, “magic bullet”, theory so from there, in the minds of those who’d taken over…we were pushovers. All they had to do was sit back and watch us go at each other’s throats…pushing a button of discord here, assassinating a threatening voice of illummination there…until one day…they could step out of their respectable, inconspicuous costumes and assume their true forms. One more step…World Domination, beginning with 9/11 and damn, they think they’ve won!
Posted by Dom on Apr 1, 2003 at 8:51 PM
I just had an idea I think could REVOLUTIONIZE the world of Professional Sports coverage!
(Bear with me, here)
For YEARS, we’ve been watching professional football from our livingrooms, listening to “play-by-play” commentaries by sportscasters who are either positioned high above the “action,” or worse yet, on the sidelines. It should be clear to us by now that we’re not getting the “taste of the game” that we really deserve.
Imagine how great it would be if the sportscasters were ON one of the teams! I mean, the general managers could look for big, beefy journalists, put them through all of the same training the rest of the “team” endures… Then, on game day, these reporter/athletes would actually PLAY and report LIVE from the field!!
Gone would be the days of watching the game from the distance of the press box… We’d get the REAL story… (Albeit, from only ONE team’s vantage point)...
I think we can all agree that not only the accuracy of the reporting, but the DRAMA of the game would be significantly enhanced…
How about it? Let’s “embed” our sportscasters! (Who’s with me!!?)
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:15 PM
So – back from a trip where I found myself being attended to by 2 charming young ladies who gave me their undivided attention for a full 3 hours ……….. shame it was the Dentists really.
But, as I sit scanning through today’s ‘odd-odes’, I find one thing is almost inescapable – this forum is rapidly turning into “The Tim & Tom show”. Hey it’s not a bad thing – the guys have lots of great stuff to share, but I do have my reservations.
I mean – what happens if they’re bought out by CNN (or worse [?!?]) – being forced to give interviews on how THEY think the bulletin boards around the globe will cope with the sudden influx of anti/pro-Michael Moore comments. Or having to make scale models of PC-screens, demonstrating with little push-sticks how people from all around the world are invading the “InTheseTimes” website – switching over to retired HTML programmers for advice on how THEY think the Server could be saved without too much damage to the bits on the hard-drive whilst making sure the power supply is left intact for future use. God – I can see it now …….. “and today’s ‘not-so-special’ guest – (cue drum roll) – here he is – all the way from “pussy-land” (sorry – yesterday’s slur at Canadian’s appears to have backfired!) ……….Spike !!!!!!”
I particularly liked the exchange where Tim relied to Tom, who commented on Tim’s mail about something Tom said in an earlier posting ………… or was it a mail Tom sent ….? Oh – I give up – how about picking some nicknames – like “Spook” and “Speek” – we could really cause some confusion between us then!
PS: Seriously – you’re good guys the both of you (still can’t figure out why someone like Tom is pro-Bush though!).
Hi to the ‘newbies’ too - beer time again – need something to numb the pain (physical and mental) - Spike.
Posted by Spike on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:30 PM
Spike…
Since Tom appears to be away, you want to “go a few rounds” in this debate? (ooo! OOO! I get to be devil’s advocate, okay?)
———-
(Okay…I’m now in the persona of “X-Tim”...sincere supporter of the War on Iraq):
Okay, folks… All of these arguments about motivation for the war, etc, are completely moot. The only question we should be asking ourselves is:
AFTER this thing is over, will the situation of the average Iraqi be improved?
It is X-Tim’s sincere belief that their situation WILL be improved. Who cares if there’s a foreign occupying force in the country. The fact remains that their quality of life will surge ahead as a result of the present military action.
(okay, Spike… Your turn)
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:48 PM
Cuuuuueeeeeeeeeee that drum-role …….
(Spike as X-Tom … sincere detractor from the war in Iraq)
It is X-Tom’s sincere belief that their situation will NOT be improved. For starters – McDonalds do NOT have many of the local delicacies on their menu, and I just can’t see Ronald fitted out in a burqa – sorry!
I also feel that the proliferation of existing fast-food takeouts already on Iraqi soil may prove more than a challenge than Ronald may want to admit to. He faces those who want ‘chicken’ as the countries controlling food item, and those who want beef. There are even several offshoots – some prefer their chicken boiled, some prefer it coated in breadcrumbs. These factions have a tremendous history of animosity towards one-another, and have been known to commit sneaky “they’re not fighting by the rules” attacks in order to justify their position and discourage customer satisfaction.
I’m concerned that Ronald may quickly find that along with previous customers - many of whom are getting a bad taste in their mouths about his product – he will find that building the restaurant on a just-demolished site may prove easier than keeping it in business.
I’ll be back later to view the fun – “Angel” is about to start – and as his life-long nemesis I can’t pass up a chance to see someone “open up a can of whoop-ass” and “whip that pussy”.
Spike.
PS: Have I just got a little bit ‘too’ surreal?
Posted by Spike on Apr 1, 2003 at 10:04 PM
X-Spike:
I am uncomfortable at your suggestion that coalition forces will “take advantage” of instabilities in Iraq’s fast-food industry in order to stage some sort of “capitalist takeover.”
I think our leaders have been quite up-front with their promises to use ALL “spoils of war” to rebuild the Iraqi economy… As far as I can tell, once McDonalds franchises have been established, they will be turned over ENTIRELY to average Iraqis. At that point, franchise owners will be free to adjust the menu, as well as the “image” of their restaurants as they see fit. (Though some suggestion has been made that a name-change from “McDonald’s” to “Osama’s” would be vetoed)
If there’s one thing I know about global capitalism, it’s this: It is predicated on the just and fair treatment of ALL of our planet’s people. In the “new Iraq,” the only people who will die will be those who don’t WORK hard enough.
X-Tim (a fictional supporter of the war)
ps—>Tell you what, Spike… You watch your “Angel,” and I’ll catch up on the second season of Buffy, which I just got on DVD… (I can just barely get a “snowy” CBC on my rabbit-ears antenna!)
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 10:23 PM
Isn’t it scary when the majority speak but are totally ignored? I am yet to discuss with ANYONE the positive that can come about as a result of war being declared on Iraq. A peace protest in the town park of Newcastle was organised to coincide with the dropping of the first bombs on Iraq. It was, by all accounts, a peaceful demonstartion, with no-body being arrested. Not the case in Sydney, with dozens of protesters being manipulated into the backs of police trucks (hum along to Dead Kennedies song “Police Truck” now…okay. enough). Just like with the S11 protest a couple of years ago, the commercial television stations (ALL owned by Newscorp.) projected an EXTREMELY biased New World Order friendly angle on the sequence of events that transpired; protesters being forced back from a blockade after “instigating acts of violence.” yeah, acts of violence. I myself was personally responsible for an “act of violence” that lead to me being charged. I hit a copper square in the eye with one of the daisies that i was throwing around the place. I dont think my right shoulder will ever be the same again. Thankfully SBS, a community orientated non-profit television station acuurately covered the events. THEIR cameras seemed to capture NOT the “unprovoked acts of violence” by protesters, but the “unprovoked acts of violence” of the Victorian Police Department. Thank goodness for good old community television! So people, when you see coverage on commercial television that seems to link “unprovoked acts of violence” with peacefull protesters, just stop and think, “this station is headed by one of them that controlls ninety-five percent of this countries wealth. This sequence of events, as displayed to me, is (unfortunately) not to be trusted.
Turn to SBS for more accurate coverage of events that can potentially usurp that five percent of the population.
Keep rocking apple carts, people!
Posted by murray on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:03 PM
Dear X-Tim of W ……
Spike as X-Tom – who just has an opinion – and it’s humble.
I have to strongly disagree with X-Tim. My previous mail touched on the subject of those who prefer chicken. Most would readily agree that Ronald himself has a fair understanding of chicken from previous ventures – all of which admittedly failed. Many people with questionable food preferences seem to fail to recognize the fact that his latest ventures have largely been built via the use of Bull. Not to mention his less well-known marine ventures which to most smell decidedly fishy.
I also feel that many of the existing restaurants will object to an outsider muscling in on their territory, destroying their livelihood, and then charging the staff to re-build their challenger’s place of business. It will be of little comfort to the masses who are trained in changing burqa’s to find they do not have the ability to flip burgers.
But I digress – the real issue here is who will control the management, who will allocate the contracts for building and outfitting the restaurants, and who will look after the most important element in kitchen economies throughout the world – the cooking oil.
I disrespectfully submit that we should not have a pyromaniac in charge of a combustible element.
Yours – X-Tom – “It’s better to fade out, than burn away”
Posted by Spike on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:46 PM
I live in Idaho, and being raised and surrounded by the far-right, all I have to say is read what the people posting here who are pissed at Moore say carefully. They do not understand the difference between patriotism and fascist nationalism. There’s also a drastic gap in their ignorance and the intelligence of those who applaud moore. They prove the case of the “left” or anyone who can plainly see the idiocy behind a war that will invite more terrorism.
Posted by Sean Capps on Apr 2, 2003 at 12:03 AM
Our USA will profit once Saddam is done for. Right now many American and British coporations are bidding to see who gets to go in and rebuild.
You better beleive if America spends the billions of dollars and has several of t service people killed, it will want to make sure that “investment” was well worth it.
We have a theiving President. God Bless America! Oh, what did you say? There are other people in the world with opinions? God bless America!! What they hate us? Um, ok, hey news guys, keep making sure that this war looks like a Sony Playstation video game, but don’t show real stuff like dead people. God Bless America for we are Free!!
Posted by Steve on Apr 2, 2003 at 12:10 AM
I think it is particularly cynical and shameful of Moore to make such a gross and terribly fabricated opinion. Who is this man anyway? A director . . . Who gives a Sh*t! This man is obviously resentful of the entire Voting conflict involving the election and frankly will say anything to undermine the Republican party and our President. In short he is one major bigot! We can all sit here and we can either be for or against what the President has chosen to do, however, when it comes down to it deep in our guts wel know that Saddam is an evil person who will stop at nothing to acheive his means, including aiding other terrorist groups in the fight to interrupt and destroy the American way of live. How could so many people miss this point! We are not dealing with a rational person when it comes to Saddam, we are dealing with a man who rapes his own country and sits on a pile of riches, a man who oppresses his people and uses terror and torture to force his people into submission. That’s just Saddam, try to do some research on his offspring. . . evil is in his blood. Michael Moore is indirectly accusing our President of having little to no conscience and accusiing him of using our troops to further a business venture. Come on, how stupid and shallow is that . . . this war is far more complex and intricate. There are numerous (too many to mention) extremist groups who hate Americans that will always try to harm us . . . the truth is we will never ever feel the security we felt before 9/11, because we will always live with threat. But wouldn’t it be worse if our government did nothing for our future. At the cost of serious sacrifice by our brave troops, we will be able to breathe easier with Saddam gone and his Regime. So we need to unite and stand behind our President and our troops and have faith that this is for us. Let people like Michael Moore rant and rave and drown in their own cancerous cynicism and feel accomplished by that foolishness, but let the people of faith unite in prayer for our leaders/our troops and truly attempt to understand the magnitude and complexity of this situation and to quit minimizing it. 12 or so years ago we were warned about the evil capabilities of Osama bin Laden, but it was brushed under the rug by the Democratic Party, only to feel the the consequences in 2002. What a shame if we were to fall trap to that again.
Posted by Diane on Apr 2, 2003 at 12:11 AM
Diane,
I will not follow a theif, nor will I respect a lier, that is why I will nor follow George Bush. There is no Gaurantee that we will be more secure after Iraq - NONE! I guess you think it’s ok to kill innocent Iraqis to remove Saddam so you can feel more secure to a “probable” threat? Screw then right? Arabs blood is not as important as American, right?
We had 9-11 comming to us and it will happen agian because we are lead by ignorant Amero/Anglo centric men who share a short sited vision of the world and its actors.
Posted by Steve on Apr 2, 2003 at 12:18 AM
Please click on this link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2907373.stm
I was watching the news tonight, not the mainstream garbage we are fed daily, but news that actually shows what happens at the other end of those spectacular explosions. An Iraqi Christian neighborhood was bombed. Iraqi Christians????? Hmmmm! we thought all Iraqis were, you know, those muslim weirdos! Anyway, an entire family was killed/maimed. The mother who was two-months pregnant lost her baby and was lying in a hospital bed with 200 stitches on her face alone. The dad lost one eye, plus numerous other injuries to other parts of his body. The rest of the children, including a 2-year old little boy, all dead. I wonder why we don’t see this stuff on CNN?
But hey, hang in there folks, because we’re coming to free you!
Posted by Steve on Apr 2, 2003 at 12:20 AM
Hollywood celebs can kiss my behind with all there outspoken bullshit. Who the hell cares what they have to say anyway, they are all going to hell for their infidelities, lies, and hypocrasy. None of them can appreciate in the slightest way a conservative President who actually brings back some dignity to the White House. Why not? Because there is hardly a celebrity who has any dignity left among themselves. Yes, their human . . . and yes their hollywood elite . . . but who suddenly makes them experts in world events. I can see how a degree in Theatre can make your opinion so imporant to the world. Why does everyone think celebrities know it all? Good grief, this guy Moore is a director, and suddenly he’s being praised for speaking out, above all, against our President? Yes it is truly an embarrassment that we have people such as this representing the majority . . . because of the size of his pocket book and the status of his career. Who gave them a front seat to the war, a front seat in the white house or backstage pass to confidential information. The fact is we know much less then what our President and leaders are dealing with and better that way. We couldn’t handle the truth because we live in a world tainted by fear and panic. Sometimes I’m embarrassed by the behaviors of our celebrities because they exploit our beliefs and what us little people (you know the ones that struggle and get our hands dirty each day to make a living) by trying to represent us and claiming their beliefs are shared by the majority. Michael Moore is a Bigot, and frankly I feel that this worlds moral has collapsed thanks to all you liberals who want to remove any sense of accountability from Democrats and place blame on the Bush and the Republican Party for every damn thing in this world. Well, the only arguement is this . . . without faith in God and submitting to him wholeheartedly your only faith is in this world so good luck cause there isn’t a whole lot left to have faith in.
Posted by Diane on Apr 2, 2003 at 12:33 AM
Diane,
Based on your evaluation on what it takes to go to hell, you missed the part about killing innocent people…Thou shalt not kill? That is why your President Bush is going to hell, because he is killing innocent Iraqis.
God Bless the Actors and Michael Moore. Pray to God that we have more of these people in our world, because they are enlightened, aware, and do not see the world through blinders.
Posted by Steve on Apr 2, 2003 at 12:42 AM
Steve,
We had 9/11 coming to us? O bet that’s all of Bush’s fault right? In the last few years in office he has manage to completely bring down the house here in the US? I assume none of this had anything to do with Clinton’s administration, even though he served two terms.
And what will you argue? To reason with a madman . . . that has worked so well during the last 12 years hasn’t it! War is a scary and sad and devestating thing to many, it is not only the iraqi people who feel fear and pain and sadness, we all do. I carry a pit in my stomach every day when I wake up until I go to sleep. I look at my 2 year old and I well up with tears to thiink of the fear that the Iraqi families must have. But I also could not imagine the lifetime of oppression those people have felt and the suffering they feel under the Saddam government. Do they want to be liberated? We won’t know until THEY are certain Saddam has been rid of. Then they will speak out and we will find the truth. There is no war without consequence, and as in the case of the halocaust we moved in far too late as so many . . . so many lives were lost. So if you are so sure of what you believe, then that is your perogative. But I feel we live in a spoiled country, spoiled by our own freedom and numb to those who do not have this great liberty. Everyoone has a conscience here man, no one wants anyone to die, but our entire history is laden with the blood of many Americans, and our liberalism is killing us.
Posted by Diane on Apr 2, 2003 at 1:01 AM
“A great Hero”..Charlton Heston( Ben Hur )
“A dangerous Human Being, who is unaware of this fact”...Charlto Heston( Bowling for Columbine )
One is Fiction the other is Truth, sadly for Mr Heston is own life is not as Great as the one on the silver screen.
Posted by Denis Daly on Apr 2, 2003 at 1:13 AM
Diane,
I never said Clinton was not-guilty of anything. His administration supported the Taliban and supported useless sanctions that helped lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens.
What Clinton did was keep most of the world on our side, and he made a strong effort to unite the Israelis and the Palestinians.
When Bush came in he cancelled numerus treaties, ignored the Middle East, and I beleive 9-11 was primed & ready for what the Bush administration brought.
This war is immoral, and the bottom line is our security will be bought with innocent Iraqi blood and the blood of our service people.
10 Million people in 600 cities marched against war, the largest unified war protest ever! This means people are not convinced that war is the answer.
Liberlaism is not to blame. Extreme conservativsim bordering on fascism represented by this administration is much more dangerous then Hollywood or Michael Moore.
What’s more to blame is our governemnt’s piss on the world attitude or, if you are not with us, we will make you pay…some of the worst crimes were committed under “Conservative” watch in Washington - especially in the Reagan years…look up Nicaragua
Posted by Steve on Apr 2, 2003 at 1:15 AM
moore is a brave man and he gives me faith in democracy and peace
Posted by andrew on Apr 2, 2003 at 2:38 AM
For most North Americans, 911 is a “cut and dried” story - evil Arab terrorists attacked the US, there’s nothing more to learn. At worst, in many people’s minds, there was an “intelligence failure” of missed warnings that need to be addressed to prevent a repeat (the excuse for the new Homeland Security behemoth). However, there are lots of “unanswered questions” that suggest a much different story:
—why was the CIA was running a simulation of a plane hitting the National Reconnaissance Office HQ (near Dulles) on 911 (www.oilempire.us/wargames.html)
—why numerous warnings from allied governments were supposedly ignored (at least a dozen countries, possibly more, warned the US that 911 was coming)
—why the General in charge of Air Defense received a PROMOTION to run the “domestic” use of the US military
—why the planes that eventually were scrambled traveled much, much slower than they are capable of traveling, especially in an emergency (ie. after the second tower was hit but before the Pentagon)
—why the part of the Pentagon that was hit was the only part that had almost no one in it, and the part that had been strengthened against such an attack
—why the CEO of Fiduciary (in the towers) just happened to be at a “fundraiser” sponsored by Warren Buffett at Offutt AFB (strange place for a charity fundraiser) on 911, the same base that Bush went to in the afternoon
—why Bush showed no reaction when told of the attacks, and kept reading to second graders (and why his aide, Andrew Card, didn’t even wait to ask for a reply from the “President”)
—why Bush had anti-aircraft missiles set up around Genoa, Italy during the July 2001 G-8 summit (due to concerns about a 911 type attack) but not around the Capitol despite numerous warnings that 911 was coming
—why the director of the “commission” to investigate 9-11 is a business partner of Osama bin Laden’s brother in law (Gov Thomas Kean, formerly of New Jersey, is a director of Amerada Hess, which is invested in the Saudi consortium to build the fabled pipeline across Afghanistan ...) Even Fortune magazine has picked up on that. see http://www.oilempire.us/investigation.html
—why the Bush regime interfered with the investigation of al-Qaeda before 911, something that FBI whistleblowers, journalist Greg Palast and FBI counterterrorism director John O’Neill charged.
Posted by mark on Apr 2, 2003 at 3:28 AM
“In some ways she was far more acute than Winston, and far less susceptible to Party propaganda. Once when he happened in some connection to mention the war against Eurasia, she startled him by saying casually that in her opinion the war was not happening. The rocket bombs which fell daily on London were probably fired by the Government of Oceania itself,
Posted by mark on Apr 2, 2003 at 3:32 AM
it wasn’t anyone “Islamic” who ensured that our Trillion Dollar Air Force did not scramble to intercept the 911 planes until it was too late ... 911 was NOT an intelligence failure
www.oilempire.us
“If I were the president, I could stop terrorist attacks against the United States in a few days. Permanently. I would first apologize to all the widows and orphans, the tortured and impoverished, and all the many millions of other victims of American imperialism. Then I would announce, in all sincerity, to every corner of the world, that America’s global interventions have come to an end, and inform Israel that it is no longer the 51st state of the USA but now—oddly enough—a foreign country. I would then reduce the military budget by at least 90% and use the savings to pay reparations to the victims. There would be more than enough money. One year’s military budget of 330 billion dollars is equal to more than $18,000 an hour for every hour since Jesus Christ was born. That’s what I’d do on my first three days in the White House. On the fourth day, I’d be assassinated.”
—William Blum, author of Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II, and Rogue State: A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/WhyTerroristsHateAmer.html
Posted by mark on Apr 2, 2003 at 3:35 AM
It is striking that especially the people who consider themselves such good American citizens, deny others to make use of their basic right, to speak their mind, freely.
Their hostile and very agressive attitude more has totalitarian aspects “you can say whatever you want to say, as long as you say what *I* want you to say”.
Freedom of speech is also letting others have their say, even though you don’t agree.
That is one of the basic rules of FREEDOM. “Freedom” ,you know, the word thay you all take in your mouth so swiftly, but of which you don’t seem to have a grasp of what it truely means.
I do not idolize people and don’t follow anyone blindly (like so many of you seem to be willing to do int his or any other war). But I have huge admiration for Michael Moore and his courage and vision to conitnue to tell, show and write his views against all odds, hostilities, agression, lies and hypocrisy.
He continues to dare to act upon his basic civil right: freedom of speech.
And with that he tries to reach the people who are so foten fed with misinformation and half-truths.
Posted by Arjen Iedema on Apr 2, 2003 at 4:44 AM
my hat goes off to michael moore . while there are people like him willing to speak out there is still hope .also i notice how in your list below how uninteligent his critics are [ he should be shot etc] unless you have something intelligent to say you should shut up….
Posted by clare ward on Apr 2, 2003 at 4:49 AM
Oh yeah, I forgot about something:
To those people who claim of think that the Iraq war is for the liberation of the people of Iraq:
I do grand those people their freedom. But please don’t act as if America is on a humanitarian mission! The (fake) reason was to seek and destroy Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. NONE were found so far.
In the meantime Bush and his buddies have their eyes set on the oilfields, cause imagine that you’d produce and use fuel efficient cars…
Besides that it’s partly also a battle of ideologies. Reason has been set aside for another crusade. Whoever said that the Dark Ages were over?
And, very very important: if you are so much concerned about the poor oppressed people in other countries, what have you or your country done for the MILLIONS of African people who are STARVING to death at this very moment that your country is blowing billions and billions of dollars to hell (again), to destruct and kill??
Are you perhaps ashamed to give attention to STARVING people in the country where obecity has reached propostorous levels?
And there are many many examples where all the money and effort that America puts in its organisation of militarism instead could relieve countless millions of people from their misery. THAT would lead to more stability and contentment. And THAT would lead to less hatred…and thus terrorism.
Thous, I admit, there will always be people who are never satisfied…
Posted by Arjen Iedema on Apr 2, 2003 at 4:56 AM
Its amazing and too sad that some people ar still ignorant and hatful even after they have seen the magnificent work of Mr. Moore, I guess they have been brain damiged for life.
Thanks too the academy award for giving Mr. Moore a well urned oscar.
Shame on you governor Bush and shame on you Charlton Heston.
Posted by AB on Apr 2, 2003 at 5:05 AM
for oh yeah
even if moore’s film was a fiction, the dead people speak by themselves. no shooting no deads it’s as simple as that, no weapons no shooting, when walking in the streets in italy I do not get any fear because I know very few carry weapons, it’s not the same at yours where any disturbed guy can carry a UZI anytime
Posted by fabio on Apr 2, 2003 at 5:08 AM
honestly, I do not fucking care for the american/british soldiers fighting and risking their lives, they just could have said NO to this senseless war, if they decided to obey to stupid orders from stupid people they became stupid themselves. Use your brain and not the ass when making important decisions, defense is ok, offense isn’t. do not come crying when some other relative of some arab victim will claim revenge and kill your sons, this will be the right harvest for your seeds
Posted by fabio on Apr 2, 2003 at 5:17 AM
I was may be too hard in my last post, ok I’m sorry for any loss from any side, just do not go seeking death and everything will be all right
as I already said, go and spread peace not war, but can’t you realize that once you are hated by even the quietful europeans this means that you really have something wrong? and do not come up and say that france has interests in Iraq because in any case these interests were not created through bombings
Posted by fabio on Apr 2, 2003 at 5:27 AM
Innocent lives were taken on 9/11, we did not wage war on innocent people, terrorists waged war on us, on our country. President Bush gave Saddam a choice, and if Saddam had any intention of surrendering in any way shape or form he would have done so without the cost of war. But sadly, he chose to bring this upon himself and his people and his country. The person to blame for loss of innocent lives is Saddam and not our President. He was given a fair altimatum and ignored it wholeheartedly. I’m sick of hearing people continuously blaming President Bush and his administration. The blood of innocents will rest on the hands of Saddam, a madman who only wants to acheive his own means and cares very little about the lives in his country. Who continues to tell his people to fight to the death instead of asking them to lay down there weapons in what is already inevitable . . . defeat! But he would rather encourage bloodshed. That is who you should be blaming! You are in the dark man, your eyes blinded essentially by your own foolish misinformation.
Posted by Diane on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:07 AM
Well, thanks for clearing up the bohs at the oscars. I really was wondering why I could not find one sole boh’er at the audience whenever the camera showed them, but instead a lot of clapping and grinning.
And allow me a small comment on the comments. Opinions are different about this war, and with all the propaganda, truce is hard to find. But I do find it very interresting, that most of those against war point out their view in a polite and intelligent way, while most of those pro war just throw with pointless insults and empty phrases.
Posted by Stefan on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:38 AM
By the way, Arjen, obesity in our country is a self inflicted problem. Parents and individulas are accountable for getting fat. No one forces a cheeseburger down anyones throat 2x a day (especially children who can’t even drive themselves to fast food places)—that’s the blessing of freedom . . freedom of choice. It’s absolutely dumb to blame our government for not tending to this issue. I eat healthy and exercise and do not eat fast food because we have been taught of the lasting effects of our diet. Give me a break, the information is out there for everyone to learn and utilize it is up to us to apply it to our lives. All you people continue to push the importance of freedom of this freedom of that, and then when that freedom is partly to blame for us making irrational choices, we blame the government, or the President. How easy to blame instead of take accountability. There are so many issues in this country that yes, need tending, however the most immediate which compromises the safety of our nation is priority.
Also, the military has a an agenda, you don’t stop to look for weapons of Mass Destruction when you have an agenda to follow. You have to remain focused on one agenda as not to compromise the safety of the troops. There agenda first is to secure baghdad and make it safe to romp around Iraq looking for the stuff. It is highly likely they will discover chemical weapons and others that Saddam blatently lied and said he didn’t have.
I would like to comment that Michael Moore’s opinion is not that of Majority. Just look at the polls for crying out loud, there is great support for our President’s mission and I for one bakc him 100%.
Posted by Diane on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:39 AM
Tim and Spike from Canada,
You two are hysterical!! I never new that intilligent Canadians had such quick and incisive wit! I laughed all the way to the coffee machine and back from your satirical X-Tim and X-Tom debate. Or maybe it wasn’t satirical at all? Fast food operations are serious business.
I noticed that Steve and Diane also had a spirited joust while at the same time you guys degenerated.
I don’t plan on performing cartwheels for my employers today, so I’ll have time to chip in on occasion.
Tim, you really stumped on your last couple postings yesterday, and I’m still trying to formulate an answer that will make me look informed and that will do justice to my “side.”
Cheers….
Posted by Tom on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:44 AM
I think the war is disgusting and those for it have not seen the pictures of innocent iraqi people grive for their loved ones. Everything about this war is sick. Comparisons should be made between Bush and Hitler. Michael Moore is an honorable person who stands up for what is right. He needs to be taken more seriously
Posted by Mairead on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:45 AM
It appears that Diane and I are on the same page. FINALLY I’m not the only one!!
Posted by Tom on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:50 AM
Mairead from Ireland:
What POSSIBLE comparisons can you draw between Bush and Hitler? That comment has been made on this site a good number of times, and I gets more ridiculous each time.
Last time I checked, our country didn’t have dozens of concentration camps (not to be confused with internment camps) operating in the woods.
Last time I checked, Bush didn’t execute a secret re-armament of this country over a period of 20 years.
Last time I checked, Bush hasn’t executed any top military officials who disagree with him.
Last time I checked, Bush has not placed himself in direct operational control of military operations.
Shall I continue? Point hopefully made.
Posted by Tom on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:55 AM
There are many Americans speaking out against war, but only because we feel guilty. Are any Americans taking action to stop it? No, of course not. If the rest of the world does not stop this administration, with actions not words, you are just as guilty of killing children as we are. Don’t expect the people in this country to do anything, we’re all busy trying to watch American Idol every fucking nite.
Posted by demo suzuki on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:56 AM
Michael Moore is exactly what this country needs more of. He is someone who is passionate about what he believes in and knows that he speaks for the majority of Americans. Believe it or not the right to free speech doesn’t just disappear during the Academy Awards.
Posted by WayneBridge on Apr 2, 2003 at 8:14 AM
so in your opinion if bush say to anybody to do what he wants they should immediately obey? what is saddam’s part in the freaking 9/11?
what the UN is there for? what the international laws are there for? saddam may have broken the law but bush is outlaw just as much, we can call misinformation what you call information, I have seen your tv nes, only murders and 5 seconds of international affairs, can you honestly tell that you are informed about the world? and what aboutnewspapers? local local local news about idiot things, murders and 5 lines of international affairs, then again americans cannot even spot their hometown on the maps, know nothing about history , may be they think that stealing the land to native americans was a holy mission ordered by god….. he who kills is never innocent even when killing the guilty, lets’ just think about death sentences in the US, if you can kill your people by court order, no wonder how you fly to other countris and kill defenseless innocents. the matter of fact is that the world is sick and tired of you cowboys running wild around and shooting, please kill yourselves with your free weapons and do a favour to the peaceful world, use your freedom in your country, and when dealing with other countris just do not break international laws and agreements becoming war criminals worst than the ones you are claiming to be evil (at least do not sponsor them when it is convenient to you ...remember Iraq/Iran war? and Bin Laden against Russians?)
Posted by fabio on Apr 2, 2003 at 8:14 AM
Let us examine the facts. Or at least this one fact: Bush did not win the election. That is the irrefutable truth. It is absolutely horrid and wrong that he is in the White House. In correspondance with that sad fact, every action made by him is wrong. So, by association, this war is wrong. Just incorrect. Bad. It is by this simple process of dedution that we can arrive at the simple truth.
Posted by Lauren on Apr 2, 2003 at 8:18 AM
for Tom
last time I checked USA got plenty of weapons of mass destruction and always last time, nobody ordered them to get rid of it, they kindly asked and you cowboys of course refused and are still testing new weapons, how come that USA is out of any interational cooperation for justice, peace and environmental preservation?
this of course, last time I checked…
Posted by fabio on Apr 2, 2003 at 8:30 AM
I’d like to concur with what my fellow citizen Mairead (although I don’t know her) said about Bush
Posted by Enda on Apr 2, 2003 at 8:30 AM
Fabio from Italy,
I was going to respond to your posting, but you threw in there the phrase “you cowboys” which pretty much negated everything you said.
Generalizing the people of an entire nation, as I have mentioned on this site several times, is weak and ingnorant and lends no credibility to the argument.
And Demo from Negative (which your definitely are), same thing for you! You said that we (Americans) are too busy watching American Idol every night. We don’t watch network television programs in my household. I’ve never seen an episode of American Idol or any other garbage reality show.
If we are going to post our opinions on this site, let’s try to put our best foot forward and stay away from generalizing 280 million Americans based on pre-ordained lies and misconceptions.
Posted by Tom on Apr 2, 2003 at 8:52 AM
Ok, lets see if I get this one right.
We all agree that Saddam would best not rule anything bigger that a remote control for his television.
This one is pretty clear to me, too. What I did not quite understand why he wasn’t eliminated at Gulf War I?
But here we sit, him still in charge, and now soilders are storming into the country, killing other soilders, innocent bystanders, each other, a bus filled with 17 women and childs.
What I do not quie get is: Why now? Saddam hasn’t appeared all in a sudden a few weeks ago. What was the relevant reason to start this war?
It’s very unlikely that Saddam has anything to do with 11/9… neither is there any proof of even the smallest relation.
Mass Destruction Weapons are yet to be found. He may still have them, he may not. We do not know. War started anyway.
Big part of the world is not happy with the war solution. Bigger one than the alliance of the willing. Not that this seems to matter. Nor did it matter that in fact, more americans voted for Gore than for Bush. This seems to be something american I do not quite get, but maybe that’s just me.
Not even the tortured and surpressed and god knows what Iraqis do want to be ‘freed’ by the americans. Nor will they be very thankful for being bombed and shot by accident. Noone says that the civilist are killed on purpose, but these things happen during war, and was was started while other solutions were still worked out… any may have worked, or may have not, but we won’t know, will we?
What do you think, how long must this war run to have as many civilians killed as were on 11/9?
Ok, there are those who say: We must get rid of Saddam, War will work, any other ideas? No? See.
But, really, does eliminating a wrong make an other wrong right? And where will this end? Really, there’s so many wrong out there, in so many countries, not even the almost almighty USA can affort to start war against all of them. So, where does one draw the line?
And why this hurry? Why not at least try the peaceful way as suggested by the majority (including the inspectors), and if everything else fails, start the war with backup by the majority? And don’t tell me about all those who might get killed in the meantime… didn’t interrest anyone since Gulf War I…
Anyone who could explain some or all of those questions in a polite and intelligent kind of way would be welcome. And don’t flame me for my english, I am german, after all.
Posted by Stefan on Apr 2, 2003 at 8:53 AM
I’d like to concur with what my fellow citizen Mairead said about Bush and this aggressive invasion of the Iraqi people. Bush is behaving like Hitler. He did execute his own people down in Texas. He did seize power without the vote of the people. He does want the American Empire to control the world, just like Hitler wanted Europe to be German. At the moment, Bush is getting what he wants and its truly sickening. The real axis of evil is Bush, Blair and Aznar(Spanish PM) or Bertie, the Irish PM who is just as stupid as Bush. They are more of a threat to the world than Saddam or Iraq will ever be. Can’t those Americans that support Bush and this aggression realise that terrorism will perpetuate until American foreign policy changes for the better in the eyes of the terrorists? There will 10,000 Bin Ladens at the end of all this butchery by Bush and his trigger happy army. Let us see the 37 or so dead Iraqis the “Coalition” murdered yesterday
on TV please. Why can’t we see the truth, the reality of war? We have to stop these Nazis getting all gleeful with all this blood on their hands and they getting away with us seeing “fighter planes” or missiles flying through the sky. You know what the world needs? For America to be the greatest democracy on earth requires the dismantling of the two-party duopoly - the Democrats and Republicans. The Democrats are not against this war. So to achieve a multi-party system you must campaign for electoral reform. Go proportional like us in Ireland, Finland, Sweden, etc. Only Britain still has the system you took from them. Thats why Blair could get away with this war - his party has 63 % of the seats in parliament but he only got 44% of the votes. In addition you need to boycott that stupid media somehow. Also join the Green Party. Green Parties are busy in up to 100 countries. They are in government in about 5. They have the solutions to the world’s problems. We need to vote Green so that the world’s economies, societies and environments can survive and coexist peacefully. So go to the website of the Green Party of the United States if you want to do your bit towards creating a new world that is peaceful, sustainable, comfortable and exciting
www.gpus.org
Posted by Enda on Apr 2, 2003 at 8:55 AM
I am so glad Michael Moore has a voice that can be heard, as did Norman Mailer….how i would love that…...I been a fan of yours forever…...speak loud with passion…....for if only 1% listen your job is done…......well done yank…..not all white men are stupid
Posted by debby on Apr 2, 2003 at 9:02 AM
Stefan from Munich, Germany,
That was a great posting! I liked it so much that I printed it off and I would like to answer some of your questions, based of course on my opinions and what I think to be true. And no need to apologize for your English - it is just fine!
Why was Saddam Hussein not eliminated in Gulf War 1? Because that wasn’t the objective. The only mission was to liberate Kuwait, which we did. People have tried to re-write history since then saying that we failed because Saddam was not toppled at the time. Not true.
Why war now? Because the United Nations failed in their duty and several of our NATO allies chose not to stand with us. I believe that if some other countries, who are allied with the United States, shown more moral courage, war could have been averted. That is JUST MY OPINION (for all of you who are reading this and already formulating which insults to throw my way).
In fact, more people did vote for President Bush than for Gore. A full audit was conducted of the Florida balloting several months after Bush took office and it was revealed that, in fact, Bush won by a very small margin, the majority of that state. Not that the popular vote even matters. In America, we have what is called the Electoral College, which decides Presidential elections. There have been a couple instances in our history where this has happened.
As far as you saying that even the tortured people of Iraq do not want to be “freed” by America - I would disagree with that. As best I can tell, Iraq is just like everywhere else: some people are in support of military action and some people are against it. I really do believe that a vast number or Iraqi citizens know there is a better life to be lived without Saddam Hussein in charge.
Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts. Hopefully you found them to be polite and intelligent.
Cheers…...
Posted by Tom on Apr 2, 2003 at 9:10 AM
Thank god that Mike Moore has the guts to continue his stand against the thief in the white house who is killing innocents around the world in coalition with the Blair weasel and the Howard rat! Shame on you Mr Bush indeed. As Mr Dylan once wrote, “even Jesus would never forgive what you do” - Masters Of War.
Posted by Michael Hawkins on Apr 2, 2003 at 9:26 AM
15 minutes? michael moore has been blessing us with his films and books since the late 80s!
rock on.
Posted by liz on Apr 2, 2003 at 9:48 AM
for tom
when did I mention american idol? by the way it’s a retarded show in my opinion and the fact that it has such an audience tells it all…
Posted by fabio on Apr 2, 2003 at 9:49 AM
Edna from Ireland,
You refer to Bush and his “trigger happy army.”
As a former United States Army Infantryman, I VERY much resent that comment. I can GAURANTEE you that we are not “trigger happy.” We have always been reluctant warriors and we have always tried to conduct ourselves as we have always been throughout our history: patriotic young Americans who thought it was more worthwhile to spend our youth serving our country in uniform.
More stupid generalizations about Americans…..
With the exception of Stefan’s fine missive, the postings this morning have dismal at best.
Posted by Tom on Apr 2, 2003 at 9:51 AM
Fabio,
That American Idol thing was directed to Demo from Negativeland - sorry for the confusion…...
Posted by Tom on Apr 2, 2003 at 9:52 AM
let’s not generalize:
all my critics are addressed to the americans supporting bush and his unlawful war, I love all the other liberal americans who fight against it and get arrested for that, showing that the west is not immune from dictators
Posted by fabio on Apr 2, 2003 at 9:55 AM
Michel Moore is a hero. And I think that all those warmongering pussies behind their computers should either get their fat ass up and go fight in Iraq, or just SHUT UP. Thanks.
Posted by Mr Massacre on Apr 2, 2003 at 9:58 AM
Tom from Denver, my name is not Edna. Its E N D A. Its an Irish male name. I know you probably thought you saw Edna. Just, I get tired of it.
I said your troops were trigger happy because they are:
“....On March 21, the day after American and British troops began their illegal
invasion and occupation of Iraq, an “embedded” CNN correspondent interviewed
an American soldier. “I wanna get in there and get my nose dirty,” Private
AJ said. “I wanna take revenge for 9/11.”
To be fair to the correspondent, even though he was “embedded” he did sort
of weakly suggest that so far there was no real evidence that linked the
Iraqi government to the September 11 attacks. Private AJ stuck his teenage
tongue out all the way down to the end of his chin. “Yeah, well that stuff’s
way over my head,” he said.”
-From an article by Arundhati Roy in today’s Guardian. [www.guardian.co.uk]
Tom, you talk about being civilised on this comment page. Well I’d appreciate it if you didn’t take the easy way out with the rebuttals to one part of my comment. I went and copied the piece for you so that you wouldn’t think I was making a silly assumption of the US troops.
So could you please respond to my question about American foreign policy above?
Posted by Enda on Apr 2, 2003 at 10:04 AM
While Michael Moore broke what was suppoed to be a ban on political comments during the awards, he was not alone. Actors and filmmakers who are american citizens should continue to stand for their right to have a political opionion and to express it if they want to - just like anyone else. At least the so-called unpopular voices in hollywood seem to be a little more informed than the average american - especially judging from some of the other responses to this article. Michael Moore has become less charmingly comedic in his approach, though, and that has hurt him. Do what you do best, Michael. Remember the days of TV Nation. Do more of that - get your camera back into the action. Give the American people something to see.
Posted by Heidi Nordberg on Apr 2, 2003 at 10:09 AM
To Tom from Denver, CO
Thanks for your answeres, and yes indeed, I found them most polite and intelligent, no matter if I agree or not. I also find them very refreshing to read within all that throwing around of “I’ve heard"s as so called facts. That doesn’t get anyone anywhere, beside making his or her point clear, and that can be done by a simple one-sentence-statement… although it isn’t that simple with most things, is it?
Lets get to your answeres:
Saddam and Gulf War I
Yep, wasn’t the objective, then. Thats also what I learned. But still, the wrongdoings of him were known then, or am I wrong in that point? So why wasn’t it the objective then, but is now? Let me make this clear: I don’t think it is a good solution to chop off one head to change a regieme, all too often that doesn’t change all too much in the long run. Getting the people change their point of view and get rid of their dictators is more productive, though harder to archieve. But if Saddam must be removed by force (which seems to me the main reason for this war, if there is any), why not then? Could’ve saved a number of lived I get sick alone thinking about.
Why war now
Someone messed up big time, I agree with you on that one. After all, Gulf War I got the inspectors in, and somehow, noone got upset all too much when they were removed again. Not to mention the political possibilities that could’ve used to make a real change. But somehow, noone seemed too eager to get involved and better forget that this war happened, after all, it didn’t get that much good media.
So, something went wrong, but it is going wrong for quite a few years, and that’s why I really wonder: What made america return to that subject all in a sudden? Or at least that what it seemed to me, correct me if I am wrong.
And if all the allies would’ve stand closed behind america, would that have prevented the war? I, personally, think: No. Saddam wouldn’t have removed himself, he’s more the type “Kill me or leave me”. He would try the diplomatic tango when under pressure, well, he did, after all. But I can hardly imagine how more pressure but IT WILL BE WAR could have archieved, yet changed anything. Inspectors were in again, cooperation, if slow, but was growing. Removing him this way: No chance. Peacefully, that could only be happening with enough time and efford, changing the body instead of going for the head. Or that’s what I make out of history, again, I could very well be wrong.
Posted by Stefan on Apr 2, 2003 at 10:47 AM
Bush/Gore
More voted for Bush, counting all votes in america? Well, that’s news for me <g> but you live and learn. Could you post me a source for that? I find you faithful, but bringing that into converstion based on “Well, someone in a form posted it” won’t win you an argument ;-)
Besides, what I heard and read, there are some kind of unclear points with all those not counted votes, election papers being unclear (Jews voting for radical right candidates and so on, well, I think, you know these stories better than I do) which still makes me a bit uneasy about that man sitting in the white house…
Yeah, heard of that election system of yours. find it kind of confusing, one being able to rule but not really having the most votes. But as far as I know, america is not the only one having this possible, and no matter if Bush is the rightful president or not, or whatever I think about that, it doesn’t really change anything on the situation in Iraq. Nice side story, though, and hard to resist mentioning it <g>
Iraq people urge to be freed
Lots of them want to get rid of Saddam (though, related to a friend of mine, who is half arabian, not that many as we are told), but even so, most of them really hate the americans. Which is, in my opinion, not very juste, but I can understand them. I wouldn’t like those who think they know what’s good for me and what not without them really understanding my culture. And throwing bombs at me. And killing women and childs. This is a very narrow point of view, but that is what it must look for them. And again, helping them get rid of Saddam out of their own power (and not leaving them behind after mission is done, which I can understand under political views, but didn’t help to make friends over there, not a bit) would really, really make a change in the region. War, on the other hand, tends to fire the hatred, and sadly, this tends to end in terrorism. And noone likes that. Makes the world a much less nice place to live, really, I mean, how much must you hate an ideological collection of people, called country, to send your childs packed with explosives to their houses and… ah well, this makes me too sick to carry on. But this hate must have a reason. Doesn’t spring up just like that. And war, in my opinion, isn’t good for reducing hatred. Too many childs and loved ones die. Hard to forgive someone who killed your child, one side or the other.
Posted by Stefan on Apr 2, 2003 at 10:47 AM
I don’t want to change anyone opinion. Everyone has the right to think his or her way, and make their point clear (though I am not all too unhappy if I can make someone richer on a new point of view…). I respect everyone that can make his or her point clear and is willing to listen to mine. And, especially with a subject as shaking as this one, I really, really want to understand all sides. That’s why I ask questions. Besides, I think, good questions somethimes are worth more than not though-through answeres.
Thanks for reading,
Stefan
alias
NightPoet
Posted by Stefan on Apr 2, 2003 at 10:48 AM
Enda from Ireland,
Sorry about the typo on your name. I also hate it when people jack up my oldest son’s name, which is also a male Irish name.
I have been engaging in the debate on this site for about five days now. At first I found it invigorating to be in the minority of viewpoints on this site, of not having to “preach to the choir,” but now I’m growing very weary of it. I have really been trying to take the high road here, but the more filth, anger, misconceptions, and insults directed toward my homeland that I have had to put up with on this site, the more I am thinking of just bowing out at this time.
I obviously cannot change the mind of anybody on this site who hates America so much as to call us Nazis and I CERTAINLY won’t be swayed by anybody who just throws lies, misconceptions, and generalizations at me.
I’m sorry you all hate America. I’m sorry you all hate American soldiers. I’m sorry you all hate American citizens.
I leave with this: I love it here. I love my homeland of America. There is no other place on the face of this Earth I would rather raise my family. I believe in our President (waiting for the rants of “redneck chump” and “Nazi dupe”), I believe in the current military action (waiting for the inevitable “war-monger” and “baby-killer” epithets), and I believe in our young, patriotic men and women in uniform so much that it actually brings tears to my eyes. I’m proud of my country.
But what do I know? I’m just a college-educated family man who has made something of himself and provided a safe and stable home for his wife and children in this great homeland of mine.
I’m out.
Posted by Tom on Apr 2, 2003 at 11:01 AM
stefan is an example of the european well learned lesson about peace, only once you experienced war you’ll make every effort to avoid it
my grandpa fought in wwII and always talked to me about it and so did many other old guys, the memory is still well alive , we do not forget we’ve been freed by us but we paid our dues in these last 50 years now we are finallly able to stand up and express our opinion and recognize that this has nothing to do with european liberation, it’s just a not so smart move to steal some dirty oil, which it’s not worth one single life
not an american life, not an Iraqui life
Posted by fabio on Apr 2, 2003 at 11:02 AM
tom from your last post I must say you are definitely hopeless, and insulting you would not be the right thing to do
just maybe read some more books, whatch less television, put yourself more in the place of the other, be less egoistic, all right your sons are very important, but are they so much more important than anybody’s else sons? are you all so much more importants than the rest of the world so that anybody should work togheter happy for your welfare? isn’t your wellness just as important as the one of another planet earth inhabitant?
Posted by fabio on Apr 2, 2003 at 11:11 AM
Your comments echo my heart, soul and mind regarding the state of our national leadership. Mr. Bush is a lying thug, illegally in office. You have my resounding support for not leaving your American citizenship at the door!!
Posted by Ellen J. Hayes on Apr 2, 2003 at 11:20 AM
I pray to God that we still have freedom of speech. I hope that it also applies to expression in emails. I tried to email Michael Moore and Ramsey Clark but both messages were given an error message as I tried to send them.
Posted by Valerie Allen on Apr 2, 2003 at 11:20 AM
To TOM,
sorry to see you leave, you seem a reasonalbe guy to me, but I can understand that all those insults and those who do not want to argue but simply make their point clear, any price taken, can wear off on you. Hope you do not put me in the baby-killer-argument-group. I do not see americans as baby killers. God beware. But war does kill childs. No way around that one. American childs (was really shocked when I heard of the liberated 19-year-old-female-soilder… she is a child by some caring parents for sure, which doesn’t make all this better in any way) and Iraqi childs. And this is sad, and feeds hatred, and should be prevented if possible.
Posted by Stefan on Apr 2, 2003 at 11:22 AM
Michael Moore has been a mentor role model for me since “Roger and Me” a documentary on the closing down of the auto industry and the economy of flint, Michigan his hometown. He exposed through consistent effort against all odds the mode of operations of corporate america. He has been caring about people for many years and is brave enough today to try to educate those who are blinded by their un-education. It doesn’t take much research(outside mainstream corporate media)to find out that he is telling the sad truth. I thank him for doing it in a way that makes me laugh….
Posted by kym on Apr 2, 2003 at 11:30 AM
Okay…I’m back, and am keen to engage this today, not only with Tom(Denver), but with Diane(Chicago)... (Welcome, Diane! We try to keep it “friendly,” here, by the way…)
I’m going to employ a slightly different tactic this morning, but one I feel is quite relevant to our discussion. I’m struck that both of your views are pretty closely aligned with the position being expressed by CNN (I follow war coverage on a number of “network news websites”).
You will have no doubt noticed, by now, that many people in the world (well, people in this forum, at any rate) are extremely cynical about the content of “big American” news coverage. I, myself, have been awed by the difference between the coverage I’m seeing between American networks and any other international source.
It becomes clear, when you look at multiple news sources, that SOMEONE is lying, or at least stretching the charitable bounds of truth. For a really good comparison, look at BBC coverage, since their country is ALSO involved in the war… (It’s too easy to say that our Canadian coverage is “anti-war” simply because we are on record as “non-participants”.. Though, interestingly, the presence of our ships and troops in the gulf had us listed on the list of the “willing,” at one point last week)
So…. Either the mainstream US media is lying, or the rest of the world’s media are involved in an elaborate, international conspiracy to fabricate “the other side” of this cut-and-dried conflict.
I think a good place to look for some way to arbitrate between these competing “truths” is history.
(Case Study: Gulf War I— in next message)
NOTE: Tom! Don’t leave!
Posted by Tim on Apr 2, 2003 at 11:42 AM
Evaluating mainstream media through historical precedent
(Case Study: Gulf War I)
While I’m sure many of the self-professed media critics on this site are already aware of what I’m going to cite here, I have reason to believe that certain cross-sections of the educated public still haven’t heard this story.
During the days leading up to Gulf War I, as the US executive branch began to rally support for an armed intervention, the Public Relations firm, “Hill and Knowlton,” was hired. As part of the PR firm’s mandate to build support for war, they ran an $11.5 million dollar campaign known to us now as “the incubator story.”
In short, the story of Iraqi soldiers throwing Kuwaiti babies from their incubators–the story, incidentally, that galvanized public support for war–was a complete fabrication. Subsequent investigation by non-US media, and international organizations such as Amnesty International, revealed that not only was there no evidence that the “incubator atrocities” had ever happened, but the “key witness” in the story, a supposedly “average” young Kuwaiti girl named “Nayirah”, was in fact the daughter of Kuwait’s ambassador to the United States.
Please read the links, below, and then ask yourself what critical lense you are applying to THIS war’s news coverage.
http://www.cjr.org/year/92/5/war.asp
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3589/us-iraq-lie.html
Posted by Tim on Apr 2, 2003 at 12:05 PM
Thanks Michael…...it was amazing and I think you are GREAT!
Posted by Johnny Adams on Apr 2, 2003 at 12:14 PM
Tom: (from Denver)
In one of your postings this morning, you said:
“Tim, you really stumped on your last couple postings yesterday, and I’m still trying to formulate an answer that will make me look informed and that will do justice to my “side.”
I’ll be really disappointed if you withdraw from this debate before responding to my queries. I have never abused you during the course of our discussions, and for you to withdraw entirely because a few people don’t know how to not throw rocks…. Well, frankly, I think it’s unfair to Spike and me.(grin)
Tell you what. If you want to ditch the public forum, I’d be happy to continue via e-mail (though I realize there is some risk in throwing my e-mail out to the public, given some of the rants on this site…)
You can contact me through .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
Posted by Tim on Apr 2, 2003 at 12:23 PM
SPIKE:
Tom and I are talking via email… It’d be great to have you join us!
(contact me at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address))
Posted by Tim on Apr 2, 2003 at 1:10 PM
I hope that there are more Americans as clever and as courageaous as Moore!
Posted by mayari on Apr 2, 2003 at 1:16 PM
Dear Tina, (relating to a Forum Note of yours)
And what if your nephew doesn’t come home safely??? (I hope he does) What then, he? What when your lovely president sent him to die in Iraq? Would you stand behind your president? By the way, God will more likely dig in his nose and bless the snot than to bless america! You know God doesn`t like people gettin killed to much, and ya know, I think he likes people who send innocent people to their deaths even less… sorry but that’s just the way God is… you know he’s a nice guy, I think and perhaps he’s right about the whole killing issue… I think Bush will burn in hell if he doesn’t turn around and I think he won’t do that. Sorry but God is against war, I thought you know that, but hey listen, don’t worry, there is a book which can teach you stuff like this, there you can learn what God is all about, it’s called the Bibel! Maybe you should take your time and read a bit about God. There’s one sentence…ehm…it sais something like you shall not kill or murder or something…I dunno…maybe take a look at that passage especially!? I think your president, who by the way was elected by the minority (strange democracy rules in your country ?), did you know that? ha kind a funny, you know in Germany the Chancler is elected by the majority….dunno anyway… I think your president misunderstood the Bibel…. ‘you shall kill’? I dunno..maybe someone tells him his misunderstanding before its gettin emberassing…like my spelling!?
May your nephew get home well, may he not see the brutality of war! And God please let him not kill anyone!
MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON AMERICA!
Forgive the american war-fanatics for they don’t know what they do! They all missunderstood your words in the bibel, it’s not their fault, perhaps they can’t read properly…please great God forgive the american people who are supporting this war and bless those who understood you very well and those who don’t drop 900 kilo Bombs on Iraqi People. Protect the innocent, good lord! Amen
Arend Remmers, Berlin, Germany
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
Posted by Arend Remmers on Apr 2, 2003 at 1:18 PM
By the way, God will more likely dig in his nose and bless the snot than to bless america! You know God doesn`t like people gettin killed to much, and ya know, I think he likes people who send innocent people to their deaths even less…
Posted by Arend Remmers on Apr 2, 2003 at 1:20 PM
MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON AMERICA!!!!
Posted by Arend Remmers on Apr 2, 2003 at 1:20 PM
Sing to the tune “If You’re Happy And You Know It Clapp Your Hands”
If we cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets hurt your Mama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are Saudi,
And the bank takes back your Audi,
And the TV shows are browdy,
Bomb Iraq.
If the corporate scandals growin’, bomb Iraq.
And your ties to them are showin’, bomb Iraq.
If the smoking gun ain’t smokin’,
We don’t care, and we’re not jokin’,
That Saddam will soon be croakin’,
Bomb Iraq.
Even if we have no allies, bomb Iraq.
From the sand dunes to the valleys, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections,
Let’s look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.
While the globe is slowly warming, bomb Iraq.
Yay! the clouds of war are storming, bomb Iraq.
If the ozon hole is growing,
Some things we prefer not knowing,
(Tough our ignorence is showing).
Bomb Iraq.
So here’s one for dear old daddy, bomb Iraq.
From his favorite little laddy, bomb Iraq.
Saying no would look like treason,
It’s the Hussein hunting season,
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq!
Posted by Arend Remmers on Apr 2, 2003 at 1:22 PM
Tom, look, none of us are calling you yourself a Nazi per se. Its really the junta in charge that are the Nazis. And I don’t hate America. Or its people. What I detest is its politics and foreign policy, which are not a product of the people, but rather of the failed electoral and wider political system. You must realise that until radical reforms occur in these areas, this “hate” as you put it will fester and create more problems. For that to happen you must understand why we detest your political system, American foreign policy and the Nazis in control of all that. OK?
“I usually watch
Posted by Enda on Apr 2, 2003 at 2:03 PM
I just want to say that Americans and the way my own country is going scares me more than Mr. H., Bin Laden or any terrorist I’ve ever heard of. Voilence scares me because people get hurt. Americans don’t seem to understand that voilence and pain and suffering is not a mandatory part of every day life. Mr. H. & Laden only exist in their current capacities because of American and British meddling in other people’s affairs this last couple of centuries. I don’t believe everything I hear just because I want to believe it, whether it be Bush or Mr. Moore - but picking out the lies and inconsistencies in Bush and American media and my own leader Mr. Blair whom I do have some respect for is very easy which gives some credence to Mr. Moore. I recommend American’s see www.bbc.co.uk and check out the streaming bbc news 24 programme - not completely unbiased but hosting open interviews from all sides and fairer reporting than what I’ve seen on streaming American news channels.
Posted by David Bayliss on Apr 2, 2003 at 2:08 PM
Juvinile, maybe, but it does not take an underdeveloped mind to tell you that no one boos the booers. Give me a freaking break. Of course Mr. Moore’s opposition came from the balcony. This is where the REAL people sit, not on the front row with the celebrities. The REAL people arrive to the Oscar awards in clothing purchased by THEMSELVES. (not given to them by Italian designers). They drive THEMSELVES to the ceremony, and, in these situations, they aren’t afraid to boo when they want to. REAL people do not go to award ceremonies at their own jobs and spray their own liberal opinions everywhere for fear that their right-winged bosses or colleagues may disagree and vice-versa. Celebrities in the front row are so far from reality to all of the rest of America. What are they like 0 .000000000001% of the population? They are honored for what they do and nothing else. (unless you’re Bono)
Stagehands near a mic? Yeah.. right….
The people in the balcony wanted Mr. Moore to shut his fat face just as much as the orchestra and the rest of America. It seems, like President Bush, Mr. Moore has only surrounded himself with those who support his ideas and is shocked when faced with protest. Maybe he should attend a booksigning by his opposition. It is truely sad this years Oscar’s will only be remembered by Michael Moore’s vagrant crys and not for the cinema industry it is intended to honor.
Posted by rachel on Apr 2, 2003 at 2:58 PM
I’m from one of those unfortunate countries that are USA’s “Allies” in this war. We didn’t have any say in it either, but I’m not taking it lying down and neither is 58 percent of the population. I’ll do my damndest to have my own PM and his cabinet dragged in front of the war crimes tribunal in the Haag.
Yes Saddam is evil, but think about it. After the Osama Manhunt in Afghanistan, had anyone even heard about the nefarious Saddam? Not really, no. Yes, he went on killing Kurds, opressing everybody and had summary executions, but in his own Saddam way, he was merely minding his own buissness. He is a very bad person to be sure, but an immediate threat to the USA, hardly.
But as is so often the case, politicians need to keep the momentum going, and since Bush didn’t find Osama, he went for the next best thing: Saddam Hussein. And bush is busy. Ohhhhh so busy. This war couldn’t wait a year, a month or a week. He HAD to start it as soon as possible to shore up support for it and so he started it at the earliest possible time and we went along with him.
USA through the last century was a great proponent of civil liberties and the dismantling of colonies. The European powers were dead against. Now it seems to be the other way around.
USA has always been a Giant, economically, military and to an extent in new ideas. When USA had to be the military Giant, it used to be a most cautious Giant who looked down at it’s feet and took small steps so as to not trample the people this gentle giant was trying to help. Then something happened and what it is, I don’t know.
The Giant suddenly stopped looking at it’s feet, gazed at the horizons instead of the people they used to help and started saying words like: Freedom, Democracy, God and Prosperity in every sentence. It wore great, big Jack Boots and started trampling little defenceless nations all over. The Giant now has it’s eyes fixed on the horizon, and it hasn’t looked at it’s feet for nearly 55 years.
Michael Moore is a voice of dissent in a bland, propagandistic, CNN cowered mass media. I suggest that CNN rename themselves to Der St
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 2, 2003 at 3:21 PM
Martin (from Denmark):
Great post. I appreciate how you don’t “demonize” the US, but rather characterize them as a formerly “friendly giant” who now inadvertently tramples other people in the world.
Posted by Tim on Apr 2, 2003 at 3:26 PM
Hey Mike - why you didn’t bawl Blair? We got neo-conservatives in the UK too you know. Poor blighter can’t get even get his ENEMIES to acknowledge him.
Why the rest of you still typing? Richard from Toronto settled this on the 24th…
Posted by Rufous on Apr 2, 2003 at 3:29 PM
..and to Leicht from Japan… no use crying over spilled milk. That’s how history played out. If it had not, the world would not have evolved to the state it’s in now and we could all spend our time at more valuable efforts rather than argueing on this website…and if Japan had not killed Americans at Pearl Harbor, maybe they would not have killed the YELLOW Japanese in efforts to prevent it from happening again. And to la democracie, those believe all Americans have tunnel vision, know nothing about European culture or history, are not educated or even interested in it, do not have European friends and in many cases family, and do not associate and deal with them on a daily bases…. wake the f**k up.. Maybe you should travel to America and soak up a little of it’s culture before you cast stones.
Posted by rachel on Apr 2, 2003 at 3:42 PM
all that the comments on this webpage remind me is that so many americans are so uneducated that you don’t bother learning how to spell correctly, much less think critically about this ridiculous war that our lying president has gotten us into. wake up and stop watching fox news, people. the mainstream media is owned by the same corporations who have bought our president and the congress. what did michael moore say that upset you so much? something that upsets you because you don’t want to think that he may be speaking the truth…and that bill o’reilly may not be????
Posted by jules on Apr 2, 2003 at 4:20 PM
Many years ago on the playground i learned the dynamics of human interaction. Not much more knowledge surpasses those experiences.
As Mike lives and communicates some listen some don’t. Some love and some shout.
Should there not be laws to protect the voices of dissent, domestic or foreign? For one day we all may profit from the voices and perceptions of somebody different.
Cause we already know what we think.
Posted by Bannon on Apr 2, 2003 at 4:37 PM
for anyone who cares to find out more about president bush’s record since he took office, i found the following website to most interesting:
www.house.gov/appropriations_democrats/caughtonfilm.htm
just a little laundry list, prepared by members of the US house of representatives, about what bush has been saying in the sound bites that many of us so love to quote…and what he’s actually been doing.
Posted by jules on Apr 2, 2003 at 5:00 PM
The fact is that Moore didn’t like this administration before you adamant dissenters of The first Amendment’s guaranteed right to voice what you think
Brought to the table your unwavering support, which just so happened to be around the time that this war began. Moore doesn’t care about wartime courteousness and blindly follow this administration into oblivion. Benson if you really did fight in a war you sadden me. Do you actually think we should send others to that horrible fate, or disagree with the first amendment that you supposedly worked so hard to defend. I actually supported this war, strongly. Saddam Hussein is an evil dictatorial cocksucker, and yet bush with his staggeringly and consistently idiotic (tax cut=7 bil$, war=7 bil$) and offensive (crusade? Haliburton)
public address and policy making “style” have made me reconsider and change my position on this war we shouldn’t be there, why are we? To protect our country as bush has said from the beginning, or should I say had for now we are liberating Iraqi
Posted by michael S on Apr 2, 2003 at 5:03 PM
The fact is that Moore didn’t like this administration before you adamant dissenters of The first Amendment’s guaranteed right to voice what you think
Brought to the table your unwavering support, which just so happened to be around the time that this war began. Moore doesn’t care about wartime courteousness and blindly follow this administration into oblivion. Benson if you really did fight in a war you sadden me. Do you actually think we should send others to that horrible fate, or disagree with the first amendment that you supposedly worked so hard to defend. I actually supported this war, strongly. Saddam Hussein is an evil dictatorial cocksucker, and yet bush with his staggeringly and consistently idiotic (tax cut=7 bil$, war=7 bil$) and offensive (crusade? Haliburton)
public address and policy making “style” have made me reconsider and change my position on this war we shouldn’t be there, why are we? To protect our country as bush has said from the beginning, or should I say had for now we are liberating Iraqi
Posted by michael S on Apr 2, 2003 at 5:09 PM
The fact is that Moore didn’t like this administration before you adamant dissenters of The first Amendment’s guaranteed right to voice what you think
Brought to the table your unwavering support, which just so happened to be around the time that this war began. Moore doesn’t care about wartime courteousness and blindly follow this administration into oblivion. Benson if you really did fight in a war you sadden me. Do you actually think we should send others to that horrible fate, or disagree with the first amendment that you supposedly worked so hard to defend. I actually supported this war, strongly. Saddam Hussein is an evil dictatorial cocksucker, and yet bush with his staggeringly and consistently idiotic (tax cut=7 bil$, war=7 bil$) and offensive (crusade? Haliburton)
public address and policy making “style” have made me reconsider and change my position on this war we shouldn’t be there, why are we? To protect our country as bush has said from the beginning, or should I say had for now we are liberating Iraqi
Posted by michael S on Apr 2, 2003 at 5:11 PM
I still say “Who is Michael Moore?” -AND “Who Cares?” I don’t! Thanks,Red! Great site! (Hi James,
Thought you might find this link interesting.
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
Posted by: Red on 3.29.03)
Down with ficticious Hollywood! Down with ficticious filmakers who call themselves great because they can operate a camcorder! Guess what all you bleeding heart protesters - We Are At War! Baghdad is going DOWN! We are finishing what should have been finished 12 years ago! All liberal unAmericans - go to California and jump up and down - shift the fault and create your own country! Good-bye!!!
Posted by Catherine Jacocks on Apr 2, 2003 at 5:14 PM
This just in: Iraq is no longer the enemy of the free world!
In fact, we were never at war with Iraq at all!
All along, we’ve been fighting Singapore! DOWN with Singapore!
(apologies to those of you who haven’t read 1984… I just felt I needed to give SOME sort of response to Catherine Jacocks, after her last message)
Posted by Tim on Apr 2, 2003 at 5:31 PM
Great reporting….thank you for speaking what is and not what you have been told to print. We have turned off the news…but continue to speak out for peace.
Posted by Nina Judd on Apr 2, 2003 at 5:32 PM
David Bowie once sang,
Posted by Drew on Apr 2, 2003 at 6:00 PM
Michael Moore…calling Michael Moore…hey, where are you, Mike? Have you taken a peep at all this egotistical chat-room mentality mind refuse that the simple, humble and courageously outspoken averrals you boldly voiced at the self-promoting oscars has spawned, (never liked to see already over-celebrated congratulating each other over and over again culminating in Oscar Night), on this could-be educational site? Personally, I’d love to hear what you think about all this talk-talk because not only did you say what too few with the spotlight on them dare not say, but you wer actually able to relegate your own oscar to it’s proper perspectual place! Now that’s something special, man! So, if you have a free moment and deem it worthwhile, (although having reviewed these spoutings again I could understand your wanting to keep at cyberarm’s length from them), let’s hear what you think of us, whether affording us the forum through, inthesetimes.com became, in actuality, what you thought it might…That would interest me a great deal. You must understand, as a celebrity, your every move and word is heeded…negatively or positively. On the other hand, because we who posted our thoughts herein are mostly ignored by one another when what’s said seems too thought-provoking or abstruse-maybe you could give us some other incisive insights for the success-worshippers to gnaw upon. Hope you at least think about it.
Posted by Dom on Apr 2, 2003 at 6:49 PM
Drew (from Belfast):
Another fantastic post from our European friends… You are both eloquent and persuasive. Thanks for making a contribution that aides understanding, rather than simply fanning adversarial flames.
You are hereby awarded a complimentary tour of my humble city, should you ever be in Canada.
Posted by Tim on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:20 PM
i’m very glad about the speech of mm, because I couldn’t believe, that the majority of the americans agree to this war.
thus “old europe” does not have the usa, but only bush and his ass-kisser against itself ...
Posted by Marco on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:29 PM
I agree entirely with Mr. Moore. Bush is going to war for ficticious reasons, why would you bomb someone to bring them peace? I agree with you Micheal, and i stand with you and say “SHAME ON YOU MR.BUSH, SHAME ON YOU!”
Posted by Dan on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:33 PM
I totally agree with Michael Moore and think his comments were not only ballsy, but absolutely true.
Posted by Marcus Nielsen on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:37 PM
Thank God for people like you,
Michael Moore.
Posted by wil on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:53 PM
I am so grateful that Michael Moore had
the courage to say at the oscars what so many wanted to.What Bush and his administration are doing is wrong no matter how you look at it.
There is no use in trying to dismiss Michael
as being an idiot looking for his fifteen minutes of fame,,his work is clear proof of his intelligence, (hence the reason he won an oscar).Thankyou Mr.Moore for opening peoples eyes.
Posted by Leylita on Apr 2, 2003 at 7:56 PM
“I don’t support the War or Bush but I do support the troops”- I’m seeing a lot of that here. Wake up folks-I was G.I. once. I recall the Uniformed Code Of Military Justice. Certainly not the Constitution and Bill Of Rights but-you might not know that, namely, as an individual soldier, you have the DUTY to disobey any orders that clearly clash with your conscience or ignore essential human rights. Otherwise, and this should come as no surprise to ANY Real American- YOU, as an individual become the equivalent of all those Nazis who fell back on the excuse that, “Ve vere yust following orrrrders”. No, I DON’T wish for youngsters who’ve been deluded, idoctrinated, breifed and trained to KILL or be KILLED by people their commanders tell them are the ENEMY to know the horrors of War…But they have the moral obligation to refuse to fight when, as in the case of this mass-murder of Iraquis, they’ve been placed in harm’s way, to KILL or to be KILLED by strangers, obviously and clearly against the intent of INTERNATIONAL LAW and the TEN COMMANDMENTS just ‘cause Dubbya says so. They knew what they were getting into, at least as far as risking death and committing manslaughter. Let’s not be naive here. If the TROOPS did not follow orders, there would be no WAR. They weren’t drafted like I was long ago. They clearly VOLUNTEERED! They each made an individual choice to barter some personal freedoms for whatever gain they were promised. They got yet another BUSH WAR. Their Volunteerism makes them feel obligated, so, because of this they think they MUST OBEY EVERY order commanded . How does this circular thinking make anything right or they more valuable than any other human beings? After all, who pays their commanders and their Chief? Who is the Constitutionally TRUE government of the U.S. if not we the people, the taxpayers? It is OUR will that must be held SACRED but is being ignored! Whatever befalls them, they MUST take responsibility for ther actions AND in-actions. After all, their supreme C.I.F. already decided that people much younger than they should be held culpable for civilian crimes. To him, 14 year olds are adults, (even though he’ll never be one), and must face the executioner if convicted. It’s not that might makes right but that Wealth thinks it’s absolved of any responsibilities.
Posted by Dom on Apr 2, 2003 at 8:33 PM
Found your site through the michaelmoore website. As I did not see the Academy Awards on TV here, I found the above article most interesting and gave me an excellent idea of Michael Moore said. The peace movement here is very much against the war in Iraq, particularly as the Prime Minister of Australia, John Howard has sent troops to Iraq without the consent of the Australian people. I hope to see more interesting article on your site in the future. I do recommend that every free thinking person reads Michael Moore’s book “Stupid White Men”.
Posted by Kim on Apr 2, 2003 at 9:46 PM
It’s great to read some of your comments folks, it’s proof of what we have been feeling all along. (Pro MM people aside, that is.)
I and others here cannot believe the level of stupidity that your country is willing to accept in your leaders, voters and media.
In this country, Anti-American sentiment is growing. We have a misunderstanding: We tolerate Americans, but we don’t like them very much. You can thank your state run media for that.
Well, along comes Michael Moore and we understand that the bullshit we are fed by your media is starting to taste like… bullshit. We need more Americans like Michael Moore, we need more Australians like Michael Moore.
Shame on you Mr Bush? Shame on you America.
Open your eyes America. Understand that you are the bad guys and that only YOU can change the way the world sees you, and they see you via your plastic news readers and your spastic president.
Get off your arses and do something about it, for the sake of the human race. If you want to sit there and be lied to, then you deserve your monkey president. We are going to make sure that Howard (he’s our prime minister, stupid) leaves office in discrace, have the balls to do the same thing. It’s your future and also, unfortunately, ours. But it’s in your hands.
God bless Austmerica.
Posted by Wayne on Apr 2, 2003 at 9:57 PM
I’m in the city of Perth in beautiful Australia!
I have never been quite so shocked or disgusted in all my life. All of these american ‘patrons’ who are too ignorant or gullible to see the truth in Michaels research. Michael didn’t invent these things - each of his reports are based on facts and a lot of hard work. Michael is a better man than any of you just for the sheer fact that he’s let go of his fear factor and is REALLY trying to help his fellow americans by opening their eyes to the mass monopoly on media which is just another form of censure. So really i can’t blame those people who are so dull witted as to write negative remarks here, because it’s the government that you are hailing that has censored and controlled you all your life. We are each of us victims of our government all across the world in some form or another - it’s just that yours is as bad as any eastern country ruled by dictators… Your country will never stand united as long as your presidents elect themselves into government and try to take over the world, all in pursuit of oil and glory. The ignorance in USA is so widespread that i find it hard to fathom you will ever find true happiness, peace and equality (for all your races), but if you continue to pump out the true GEMS like Michael you have a better chance - because one day you won’t be able to ignore what is right in front of you.
Michael, here in perth my friends and colleagues support and respect you. We hope you continue in your pledge to speak out for the real people and if you ever wish to come to Australia to dig out some truths on our government we will welcome you with open arms!
Best of luck to you and your family.
Posted by Janaya on Apr 2, 2003 at 10:34 PM
FYI:
“Clinton’s advisors met nearly weekly on how to stop bin Laden ...
I didn’t detect that kind of focus from the Bush adminsitration.”
—Two Star General Donald Kerrick
“I don’t believe any longer that it’s a matter of connecting the dots.
I think they had a veritable blueprint and we want to know why they didn’t act on it.”
—Senator Arlen Specter (R-pa)
“Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America . He did nothing to warn the American people, because he needed this war on terrorism. His daddy had Saddam and he needed Osama. His presidency was going nowhere. He wasn’t elected by the American people, but placed in the Oval Office by the conservative Supreme Court; the economy was sliding into the usual Republican pits and he needed something to hang his presidency on. This guy is a joke. His silence was sleazy and contemptible.”
—Lt.Colonel Steve Butler , Colonel’s Letter
“The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him.”
pResident George W. Bush, September 13, 2001
“I don’t know where he is. I have no idea and I really don’t care. It’s not that important. It’s not our priority.”
pResident George W. Bush, March 13, 2002
Dow Jones Since Inauguration:
Down 32.5%
Unemployment Since Inauguration:
Up 36%
Budget Since Inauguration:
281B surplus now 157B deficit
And a loss of 2 million jobs.
Yeah, this “war” is such a priority.
Posted by neil on Apr 2, 2003 at 10:36 PM
In 1995 Michael Moore put out the movie; ‘Canadian Bacon’. Alan Alda plays a US president who tries to find an enemy after the cold war. When the Russians admit they lost and the US won, his administration desparately searches for a threat. When international terrorism is brought up, the president scoffs and jokingly suggests Canada as the new enemy. This movie eerily predicts the future and is the most realistic film Moore has ever done even though it is his only ‘fictious’ work. It stars; John Candy, Rhea Perlman, Rip Torn, Steven Wright and GD Spradlin as the stupid white man.
When the Bush administration took over the country in 2001, they immediately started searching for an enemy. There was the incident with China and Taiwan and the downed plane. Then there was the murder of the Japanese tourists off the coast of Hawaii. The navy commander who booked the submarine tour that allowed civilians to steer it, was given a dishonorable discharge, because of his comments about some marines who raped an underaged japanese girl. He said the marines;‘should have gotten a hooker’, and the Japanese gov’t pressured the US to fire his ass. This incident was his revenge against the ‘Japs’. The sub in question surfaced directly under a Japanese fishing boat and then everyone on the sub watched as these tourists drowned. They claimed that the three foot waves were too high to attempt a rescue. Meanwhile, Bush spent 90% of his time as president on vacation, hanging out at his solar powered ranch with reclaimed water. Could it be that Bush is really a radical liberal hippiecrit who makes money off of selfish lazy americans who love being rich arrogant slobs. The CIA refers to incidents like 9-11 as blowback; an enemy response to American repression around the globe. We now know that the adminstration let 9-11 happen so they would have an excuse to make money off of war. The CIA trained and funded ‘terrorists’ were just puppets in an oil grab by the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia and rich people around the world.
Posted by demo suzuki on Apr 2, 2003 at 11:13 PM
Wayne,
We’re starting to do some things here with the peace movements, etc. Public Access TV is one of the best ways to get the word out here and it’s been, so far, completely unregulated.
One weird and back-firing move done in the name of $$$ was the way the major networks haven’t been covering the war and have opted to show their scheduled programs for dollar’s sake. This takes away from the media showing only flag-waving, white-bread America cheering on as Iraqi children are given care packages, when in truth, most of us here are against this war.
When Fox News covers it, those with any sense know it’s like the Ministry of Propaganda making press releases.
At first, no one listed to the Vietnam protests, but they did turn the country’s opinion, and we hope, these will too.
The KGB, I mean, Homeland Security bill is doing more to work against these movement than it is to “protect” Americans from terrorism.
Thank you for your support. I’ve always been fascinated with Australia since my late brother spoke of moving over there to be a sheep farmer back in 1971. Wish he had been able to.
Posted by neil on Apr 2, 2003 at 11:15 PM
Dom from Long Island,
YES! Yes! Yes! You’re absolutely right. This war is against the constitution. Here, your statement is backed up:
1. I will remain loyal to my sworn pledge to uphold the U.S. Constitution, no matter what. If I consider a civilian or military order or operation to be contradictory to the Constitution, I will not follow the order and will do whatever is in my power to stop the unconstitutional operation.
This mind-set is represented by such military leaders as (to name just a few):
Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty.
General Frederick Woerner—commander in Panama and replaced by Bush senior when he wouldn’t obey an illegal military order to attack Panama.
Admiral William Crowe—Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and replaced by Bush senior when he wouldn’t obey an illegal military order to attack Panama.
the six U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff in the time frame: 5/25/02 (before their arms were twisted by Powell and Bush to fall into line).
Army Vice Chief of Staff Gen. John Keane.
War Is A Racket, by General Smedley Butler, USMC, 1933.
————————————————————
What’s happening now is this mindset:
2. I will do whatever my civilian and military commanders tell me to do, without reflection on whether or not what they are ordering is permitted by the Constitution (since I want to get ahead in the military). This mind-set is represented by such people as:
Colin Powell, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during Bush senior’s presidency (took over when Admiral William Crowe wouldn’t agree to Bush senior’s illegal invasion of Panama).
General Norman Schwarzkopf, commander of the Gulf War against Iraq.
General Maxwell Thurman, commander of Operation Just Cause, the military attack on Panama (took over from General Frederick Woerner, when Woerner wouldn’t agree to Bush senior’s illegal invasion of Panama).
General Tommy Franks, current U.S. military commander in Afghanistan (and now murdering poeple in Iraq).
US Air Force General Ralph E. Eberhart, head of the newly established Northern Command.
I’m glad to see someone has reason and common sense.
Neil
Posted by neil on Apr 2, 2003 at 11:48 PM
As someone who has lived first hand with terrorism and hate all his life, all I can say is that the ONLY thing that matters is peace. Only in peace are the real discoveries made. Only in war are nukes, V2 rocketry, smart bombs and ‘daisy cutters’ invented. where have the smallpox and TB cures of the last 50 years?? Where is all the late great technology?? In the military and the big biopharm corps where it is used to propagate the yoke around the 3rd world. War is our greatest failing - war comes from the inability to interact and compromise. Sanctions bleed the poor and the weak and the unwanted (I.E. Iraqis. Chechens, Somalians, Afghanis, Vietnamese, El Salvadorians (WE REMEBER MR. REAGON, EVEN IF YOU DON’T), Those in the Concentration camps, the innocence that was’nt the US controlled Cuba…....I can forgive misguided terrorists on all sides, but I can’t forgive those who expound their filth as “freedom, Democracy and Justice”. George Bush, in the words of the late, great man, Bill Hicks - “enjoy the lakes of fire F****R”
Posted by Ian-oh on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:06 AM
Michael Moore is important, not only for America, but for the rest of the world, because he speaks out what most of us are thinking. And thus, we see that not all of you guys are the stereotype-hamburger-eating-nutheads that a lot of europeans think you are.
Support MM, support peace, support understanding!
Posted by Urs Brauchli on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:43 AM
Oh and finally. George W. Claims to be a born again Christian?? Well guess what georgey boy, you are NOT a christian. Now, where do I get this proof? MMM, maybe in the BIBLE? you f*****g moron - thou shalt not kill? turn the other cheek? lovew thine enemy? forgive? do unto to others?? is any of this getting through to you? oh i see, this must be americhristianity - where basically the bits that make you look bad and the bits that you like (homophobia, although thats a pretty long stretch, care for the environment - its there, believe me, i’ve actually READ the thing, peace love and tolerence, respect for life and honesty.) Bush and his cronies are not in any way connected to GOD in whatever his true form is and as a matter of fact opposed to the current american if the BIBLE is to be believed…....
Posted by Ian-oh on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:49 AM
Congratulations on this story. At least there are some media sources in America which tell the truth. I am a great admirer of Michael Moore, and his efforts to regain democracy in the US. I hope that the liberals in America can find a big voice in these demanding times. Keep up the good work.
Posted by Maria Katerina on Apr 3, 2003 at 4:13 AM
Before I begin my day today, I will try to once again pound into some thick, brainwashed skulls this one TRUTH: The United States OZ-Ochracy has become a BULLY, ROGUE, PUPPET of Global Corporations for whom they and their psychotic, well-heeled goons, (the secret agencies, law enforcement, CIA, FBI, NSC, ATF, U.S. Marshalls, FEMA, FAA, and others so deep in the shadows no one even knows about them, including the Dubbya gang), are more than gung ho about dancing to their DEATH-SONG for big profits and more power. Multimillionaires working for Multibillionaires sending poor deluded and indoctrinated from their cradle troops and super techno-murderous extermination machines is what this is ALL about. If you believe otherwise, then don’t spew your crap here because your crap is all we are left with having to hear and bear 24/7. Go e-mail your inane Warloving crap to the entire mainstream media so you can puff yourself up knowing you’re on the side that might not ram down your door in the middle of the night and, “dissapear”, you. As for the rest of us who MUST keep on shouting as loudly as possible AGAINST this ongoing PSYCHOSIS…God help us when we get, “disappeared”! But you know what? If we don’t risk being victims of this onslaught of Fascism…Then even the rest of you who thought they were safe on the, “RIGHT”, side will eventually become targets because, well, just because the FASCIST goon squads might not like the way you look.
Posted by Dominick on Apr 3, 2003 at 6:12 AM
hEy Michael mOOre
- we want mORE
rocking of the boat!!
If You’re Happy And You Know It Bomb Iraq
by John Robbins
If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq.
If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq.
If we think that someone’s dissed us, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections,
Let’s look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.
It’s pre-emptive non-aggression, bomb Iraq.
To prevent this mass destruction, bomb Iraq.
They’ve got weapons we can’t see,
And that’s all the proof we need,
If they’re not there, they must be there,
Bomb Iraq.
If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
If you think Saddam’s gone mad,
With the weapons that he had,
And he tried to kill your dad,
Bomb Iraq.
If corporate fraud is growin’, bomb Iraq.
If your ties to it are showin’, bomb Iraq.
If your politics are sleazy,
And hiding that ain’t easy,
And your manhood’s getting queasy,
Bomb Iraq.
Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
For our might knows not our borders, bomb Iraq.
Disagree? We’ll call it treason,
Let’s make war not love this season,
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq.
Posted by biAnCa on Apr 3, 2003 at 6:27 AM
At a time when American popularity is at its nadir across the world, Michael Moore is an absolute credit to your country, a rare bushel of light in this sorry affair. Anyone who has read his book will know he has little time for lying democrats either, he just genuinely has your interests at heart. Surely all the people who have written in support of MM here could combine to create a powerful voice?
Posted by Colin on Apr 3, 2003 at 6:28 AM
I’d like that all the american talking against the war would flood the streets and paralize USA until the bombs stops, if you really aare millions, show it to the world and to your blind governors
we had millions people in Italy demonstrating for peace, since the war began we had 570 different manifestations with millions of people
clever americans unite and fight against evil bombers, and please even when the war will be over, fight for the Iraqui people to have a government of their own, not one of your crazy generals, the united nations will have to settle the matter, when the killing will be over the cowboys in camouflage will have to go back in their death ranches and hopefully never come back
Posted by fabio on Apr 3, 2003 at 8:17 AM
FUCK BUSH, FUCK EVERYBODY WHO SUPPORTS THE KILLING IN IRAQ!!!
Posted by Arend Remmers on Apr 3, 2003 at 9:24 AM
GOD WILL LET YOU BURN IN HELL FOR KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE AND ASKING FOR HIS BLESSING WHILE DOING SO!!! ‘God bless america’ is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard!!! GOD BLESS THE PEOPLE WHO OBEY HIS WORDS!!!
Posted by Arend Remmers on Apr 3, 2003 at 9:32 AM
I
Posted by mariana on Apr 3, 2003 at 9:33 AM
this war is wrong.
Posted by george bush is just silly on Apr 3, 2003 at 9:59 AM
Michael Moore is an idiot and I’d like to see him get sent to Iraq. All of you idiots that are against this war should be sent over. If you think this war is so bad, why don’t you watch the news coverage that shows the happy people in Iraq who are relieved to see that freedom is coming. If I hear one more person say that the war is about oil, I’m gonna scream. You obviously need to go back to kindergarden. I am personally honored to have a president that reads the Bible and prays every night instead of getting blow jobs by his intern. Nobody wants war, but sometimes it’s necessary to bring peace in the end. What you guys don’t realize is that there was already a war going on. We’re just trying to finish it and have peace. The Iraqi people are being treated horribly by Saddam. Bush is just trying to make sure another 9/11 doesn’t happen. Everyone just wants to blame Bush for everything. If he didn’t send our troops over, then another terrorist attack would end up happening here and then you guys would just blame him for that also. You guys just aren’t happy having a president with morals, and you are automatically judging him because you didn’t like his father. GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!! I am ashamed to have you in my country. Our troops are over there fighting so that you can open your big mouths and criticize them. I know, you guys like to say that you are behind the troops, just not the war. What the hell??? No you’re not behind them. They know they are doing a good thing and you’re protesting it. They’re doing it for you, and the rest of America. They are not only fighting for us, but for other people, so that they can be free also. They are all heroes, and it pisses me off that some of them are dying for you guys, and you aren’t even thankful. Shame on you. I don’t consider you Americans. You are traitors, and an embarrassment to our country. Semper Fidelis!!!God Bless America (even the traitors)
Posted by Malea on Apr 3, 2003 at 10:28 AM
How on earth can a democracy speak with its wallets. A democracy is one vote per person. The wallet is however many dollars one has, that many votes one has. You, mark, are an imbecile.
Michael Moore is brilliant, and a loving and caring human being. He deserved his Oscar and he deserved the support of the audience that night, despite the few corporate whores who tried to mar it. They failed.
Moore is my hero.
Posted by Victor on Apr 3, 2003 at 10:41 AM
Thank you for your story! Michael Moore spoke the truth and had the guts to say so in an arena that most of you “namecalling” imbiciles…ooopps…did I strike a nerve with anyone?...don’t have the intelligence to do. Education can be paid for, common sense is priceless! More Moore!!!
Posted by Dara on Apr 3, 2003 at 10:54 AM
to Malea!
Well put dear friend!
God bless you.
Peace
Posted by Red on Apr 3, 2003 at 11:54 AM
It’s almost funny to see how many ignorant pricks have put their thoughts on this website. Having said that, it’s important for people to be heard, the very point Michael Moore was making. He’s a legend, its important to have people like him who can reach a mass audience, if only to rouse opinions and make us all think. you stink bush.
Posted by matthias peters on Apr 3, 2003 at 11:55 AM
Arend:
Just curious as to which bible you are referring? Old, new, the living bible, which one?
The reason I ask is simple, seems to me you just pull text that you thinks fits your current rant & then use it out of context to make your point, however ridiculus it may be.
Stop using God as an excuse to abuse the others on this forum. You are starting to resemble a certain madman in the Middle East.
Posted by Red on Apr 3, 2003 at 12:25 PM
SAVE 53% OFFTHE NEWSSTAND PRICE!
Reader Comments
I think its sad that so many people would rather attack Michael Moore personally, or debate his presentation style, than debate the content of what he said. There is very little debate as to whether or not the President is lying to us. People should not line up behind the President even if we are at war. Even if my candidate Ralph Nader were President, I would not stop second guessing him. But at least I would feel confident in his integrity and that his Rooseveltian ethics would bring greater justice to America. I’m afraid the newfound and widespread ignorance of Americans will bring further harm to our country.
It was refreshing to see the other side of the Michael Moore story. It was so confusing to watch the standing ovation his film received, then hear the booing. There was no way these two reactions could have come from the same crowd. Michael Moore is one of the most courageous film makers working today and it is a testament to his genius that Bowling for Columbine received not only critical aclaim, but box office success. America is much more in alignment with Moore than the mainstream press would like to believe.
Tim,
Alot of people on this site have pointed out that we supplied Saddam with all sorts of weapons in the 1980’s. True fact! He was an ally at the time. International relations change. We have been allied with, or arrayed against, almost every country in this world throughout our history. This is true of most nations. Just because Saddam was an ally 15-20 years ago makes us wrong now?
You make a VERY good point about the criteria for deciding which thugs or tyrants to go after and to be honest I don’t have an answer for you. I regret those decisions are probably based more on politics than they are on ethics and morality - and this is very sad indeed.
Please don’t play the war for oil card, though. I can poke holes in that argument all day long, as I have already done on this site a number of times.
All I can say, Tim, is that it’s probably a good thing I’m not president, because I would go after ALL the thugs and tyrants in this world and replace them with governments of the people, by the people, and for the people - especially the children. That may sound naive and ideological, but I’ll stand by it.
Don’t you find it remarkable that people on both sides of this argument bring up the children to help prove their point?
I loved the blunt yet realistic honesty of Michael’s speech. I only hope that people in the public eye keep up the fight for peace, justice and above all else truth. It is our right and we can not be silenced!
Tom(from Denver):
Your quote: “But what is the alternative? We tried to make this work by going through the defunct and obsolete United Nations.”
—-What, exactly, did we “try to make work” through the UN?
To disarm Iraq of WMDs, correct? (resolution 1441) How does removing Iraq’s weapons serve the starving and dying Iraqi people we are talking about helping?
I don’t think you can have it both ways, Tom… You can’t claim on one hand that this war is about “liberating Iraqis from a tyrant”, when the UN initiatives were not directed at regime change at all, but rather at limiting Iraq’s proliferation of WMDs.
ps—-> I love your city… I did some religious studies up in Estes Park back in 1992, and I’d often spend time in both Denver and Boulder…
Michael Moore gives me back some faith in this country I can honestly say I almost completely lost when Bush was “elected”. As long as we have voices like that out there there may be a little hope for this country in the face of our present silent military coup.
Tim,
You’ve got me on my toes this afternoon! Some interesting and tough questions in your last posting.
I will try to address them from home this evening over cocktails.
Denver is a beautiful city, my hometown. I’m glad to be raising my family here. I’ve never been to Canada….
can’t turn the page
Tom (from Denver):
I don’t really understand. You acknowledge that decisions about who to invade “..are probably based more on politics than they are on ethics and morality…,” and yet you simultaneously discredit the “war about oil” argument.
I need some clarification. What, exactly, do you mean when you refer to “political” motivation?
In my dictionary, “politics” is about “...competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power…”
What, if not natural resources, is the “political” motivation behind invading Iraq, and not some other country?
Tom (from Denver):
I’m glad you’ve got those family obligations! That means I can pull myself away from this monitor and get some of the ponderous marking done I’ve brought home for my Spring Break. (The joys of being a teacher!)
I’ll be back tonight to continue this discussion… (‘Might even join you for a drink, though my “lenten resolve” forbids me from drinking alone!... Let’s say that if we’re actively involved in this discussion, I’m not “technically” alone, then, shall we?)
Michael Moore is an inspiration ....
How can so many Americans attack free speech? Australians wish they had the supposed rights and freedoms of Americans ... we don’t even have a bill of rights! When did Iraq ever attack the US? If he’s got WMD didn’t the US and Europe give them to him to fight the Iranians? There are more brutal and totalitarian regimes than Saddams that are supported by the USA! The West would collapse in an instant if democracy ever really broke out worldwide! Won’t attacking Saddam give him even more reason to equip the “terrorists” with WMD? The US cannot survive politically from the heavy casualties it will receive trying to keep Iraq “pacified”! Remember history, Lebanon was less than 1000 dead G.I.s! Good luck remaining the land of the free when 100 Osamas begin the jihad and if this crap keeps up remember there are less than 300 million of you and 6.2 Billion of us!
Bush and his string pullers can’t kill everyone! The hypocrisy of governments is, as ever, mind bogglingly maddening!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Spike, hey, man, you’re right. To want to keep it lite…That’s also what I’d really like…
But see here, man, you know it’s tough to get all of the shit thoughts out…Sorta morphs into a shout…and yeah, I do use many words because I really don’t talk much. I’m just a love-life painter who’s tired of this WAR stuff. I’ve had just about enuf! Just tryin’ to DRUM the bottom line…War is murder and that ain’t fine…or funny, or noble; or heroic ‘cause some of us can’t understand that the BOTTOM LINE is all it’s all about. So, I sure do wish I could be clear as ice but even if I was…They’d still be stuck in their personal mental rut… and REALLY don’t care what the Pres&CO;. does. I’m cool, man but you know what…maybe that’s the mood that got us in THIS lot. So, here’s good bye and I hope some will grow…I gotta go groove on the UNIVERSAL show.
That guy from Kansas has been to Iraq, I’m guessing. He seems to know first-hand what a horror it is to live under the tyranny of Sadaam. Well, that may be true, I’ve never been so I can’t corroborate the continual negative propaganda about him. But, all of that doesn’t matter anyway. You missed the point, Kansas. Sadaam is a head of state and is probably skiing in the Swiss Alps right about now while we’re wiping out hundreds of thousands of his subjects along with sacrificing who knows how many of our people. Don’t you get it? It’s like all the other Tyrants who seem to live forever while thier people are slaughtered to make THEIR country safe for democray. Let’s try to make OURS safe for democracy, Kansas…but then, you probably think you’re just like Dubbya and won’t get locked up if his pit bulls don’t like something you may say off the cuff. Think it’s not happening here? How the hell would you know, have you said anything that might offend Dubbya and Company? Take a look at what happens to people who do…there are plenty of websites that focus on the police brutality and subsequent incarceration of those who also thought they could speak THEIR minds in a democracy. So, my advice to you is, keep towin’ that Dubbya line, you’ll be fine…at least for a while.
This is one of the best forums I found on the net about the pros and cons of the war on iraq, from both ignorant and clear-thinking people, from both within America and without.
And guess what, the enthusiastic postings on this forum came about because one man, Michael Moore, an admittedly physically-unattractive but talented documentary-maker, made the war the focus of his Oscars acceptance speech.
So rather than bash MM for using his ‘15 minutes of fame’ for self-aggrandisement as some suggested (and which in my opinion, he hadn’t - not only did his simple message contained nothing that could be described as vainglorious, but that he delivered his short speech while sharing the podium with the rest of nominated documentary-makers - how can that be conceived of as a show for one-upmanship??) - we (all of us, whether pro-/anti-war) should be grateful that MM has helped spark a debate on the merits/demerits of the war on Iraq. Now of course, for some people the mere suggestion of a debate on the war is tantamount to behaving unpatriotically. To these people, no matter how much they claim they are ‘American’ and love their country, they really do not yet grasp what is meant to be unique and great about America - that it is built on democratic ideals, that it encourages freedom of speech, that it promotes tolerance and understanding amongst people from diverse backgrounds who happen to live together in pursuit of the ‘American dream’. That *is* the ‘American way of life’ that should be protected. Not blind adherence to a President or his administration just because they are in office. Sure, Bush Jr. may or may not have been democratically elected, but what’s even more crucial than his election provenance is whether or not his adminstration, while in office, enshrines the democratic principles in their operation.
Evidence so far has suggested otherwise. Th war on Iraq is a completely unilateral action taken by the U.S. in complete disregard to the United Nations and worldwide opinions. (For those of you less literate ‘unilateral action’ means action endorsed/undertaken by one nation; rather than stemming from a worldwide consensus). Sure Britain, Spain, and Australia agreed. But that’s the extent of the ‘coalition of the willing’ on a globe that has more than eighty countries.
- to be continued -
In fact, just as many prominant countries - France, Germany, Russia, China formally opposed it, and it is clear that there was never a majority on the UN Security Council even if the U.S. had the guts to apply for the second resolution. Even amongst the nations within the ‘coalition of the willing’ itself, popular opinions are overwhelmingly anti-war.
If the Bush administration is serious about its American way of life - i.e. democratic ideals - then it should be more alarmed about the fact that its actions are opposed by many countries around the world and by a significant portion of its own people. Rather than blithely brushing aside criticisms of its actions as either quips from ‘old Europe’ (as Rumsfeld insultingly called the French and the Germans), or branding its own concerned citizens as ‘unpatriotic’ and ‘unAmerican’, a truly democratically committed U.S. government should have encouraged diversity in the debates on the war and try to build consensus through dialogue. Unfortunately, what we have witnessed so far from the American media has been anything but. As an example, I was personally amazed, when Condoleeza Rice was on CBS News talking about the justifications of a war just after the worldwide anti-war protest in February, that the CBS anchor only asked one question, ‘as a footnote’, at the very end of the interview, of what the administration thinks about the worldwide disapproval of the U.S. urge to war. How can we have serious debate on an issue as important as a war when the prominent American media shied away from engaging in proper, not to mention tough, questioning? In the UK, the Sky News channel broadcasts its own news interpersed with live coverage from CBS news, and it is instructive, when reporting on the Hans Blix report, that the CBS news (already not as propaganda-fanning as Fox News) ‘s take on the report only highlighted what Colin Powell took from it, whilst the reporter at the same time had the cheek to comment that the French media only mentioned what it considered fodder for its anti-war arguments.
- to be continued -
It is this near media black-out on alternative voices, that people like Michael Moore are respected for publicly voicing their own views that doesn’t toe the official government’s line. You can argue that MM is doing this for his own glory, you can argue that his argument is completely bullshit, you can even argue (as some did) that he should spend his energy exercising his gut rather than his larynx box, and you can further make disparaging comments that nobody likes what he says anyway. But what you can’t take away is the fact that Michael Moore, like other handful of outspoken public figures before him, is making a valuable contribution to the American way of life by exercising one of the most sacred democratic ideals - freedom of speech - and to do so publicly so that his fellow American citizens know it’s not only okay, but great, to speak one’s mind even as the country is supposed to be united at war times. It is precisely because the war is meant to be about the protection of democracy (in fact, supposedly about bringing democracy to other countries) that we must not first lose sight of what true democracy means.
Thank you Ric for all the information on “Scull and bones” Another good read in the same vein is David Icke’s new book “Alice in Wonderland and the world Trade Disaster”. Another brave man ( like MM) who is ready to stand up and be counted. Anyone who has questions or doubt about the twin towers should read this.
I salute and respect you Michael for your courage and guts, in standing away from the herd in spite of all the negativity that is hurled your way….....A very brave man
Mr. Moore voiced what so many of us are thinking…..and thank you for that!
God Bless Michael Moore. Finally an American that realizes we don’t live in Nazi Germany as Bush would have us believe. For all these people saying “he got his fifteen minutes of fame” I’ve got news for you he’s been around a long time and he’ll be around a lot longer. He’s had a book on the bestseller list for a year, world-renound movies so pull your head out of Rush Limbaugh’s ass and wake up. Every America has the right to speak out, more like the obligation to speak out.
To Shelley who wrote: “These anti-war comments are horrible. Those troops are sacrificing their lives for us while we sit here on our cushy butts and bad mouth them. Shame on you. Why don’t you do something? Pick up litter, help the homeless, send care packages. the Oscars had its lowest television audience in 30 years? And to our troops, Open up a can of WHOOP-ASS!! by: Shelley from Texas”
My heart goes out to you. I appreciate the emotion behind your reply to the anti-war posts. Please know that just because I am against this war doesn’t mean I don’t support the troops. I support them enough to want to have them returned home—ALIVE.
I believe that the solidiers fighting today feel they are protecting the liberties we have in America & UK. However, most soldiers enlisted are people of color or the poor who could not afford a college education without military endenturment.
The War with Iraq is not about protecting civil freedoms but what Bush stated “maintaining our sacred American lifestyle” to drive SUVs with cheap gasoline.
I am a mother. I would rather walk to the market and go without cheap gas than know that the fuel that powers my car are children all over Iraq dying—it is one thing to bomb innocent children. But it is another to starve them for ten years with these sanctions and then bomb them to their deaths.
Bush is also creating an early campaign for re-“election” by using this war. Why Blaire is dipping his hand into Bush’s bloodbath is most curious. Maybe someone in England can explain this one.
And, about those troops—I am a relief worker for disaster services and send messages from mothers to their children in the 1st Marine Division. I send care packages to the troops and counsel families who are distraught about being without Dad in the house. It is TRAUMATIC for these families to be broken up just so that the war can secure America cheap gas.
As for the Oscars—who cares about the Oscars—it’s all pomp and pageantry, a white guy show, nothing of substance—if you want substance, go to Cannes or the Sundance Film Festivles.
As for “open up a can of whoop ass”—I don’t know what that means. Is that something scatalogical you’re alluding?
All the best, Louise
All White Americans are stupid as Moore said. They thought they are the police of the world. Shame on all Americans.
Michael Moore is a man who believes in freedom… who only wants peace and loves democracy. I would let him represent me any day.
Nice one! I as well was so glad that Michael won the Oscar for his fantastic documentary. I cheered him on in my lounge room in Sydney as he spoke the blatant truth in front of all the movie stars in the audience, some of whom have the conscience and intelligence to realise what is happening to their country and the world and to speak out against it. Michael is truly a voice for the average citizen of the World. Good on ya mate!
To Mr Snodgrass:
How does the issue of diet and excercise enter into an intelligent political debate? Are you actually trying to say that George W. is better that Michael Moore because he’s thinner? Are you forgetting that George W. does not even posses the most basic knowledge of the English language? He can’t construct basic sentences. He constantly flubbs his words. We are talking about the man who actually said that Saddam “tried to kill my daddy”. That really speaks volumes about a Yale education.
The fact that Michael Moore only attended one year of community college is of absolutely no consequence. He is an intelligent man who speaks the truth. It is all documented and meticulously researched. Oh-and do you know what else is documented? The fact that George W. bought his way into Yale, and beat out more deserving candidates to do it.
This story began when the we became a nation. This tale of strugle between the forces of frightened Greed, Power-lust, and mendacity against Nature, (the people)...Great men like, The Native Americans, Emerson and Thoreau, Whitman, Henry Miller, W.B.E. Dubois, Martin Luther King, who tried to wake the somnambulist majority up to the fact that the poisonous underbelly which lies well-hidden and disguised, serpent-like in the pit of the American Dream would one day not only crush all of who and what is good about America…but that America would bring the rest of the world down into the fiery guts of hell along with it. 1963, November 22…The first day of the sunset and eclipse of the Ideal of America. The day the murderous phantoms decided their time had arrived. That from the moment John Kennedy was pronounced dead…Dead too were any fuzzy commie ideals about the brotherhood of man and World Peace. The calculated, inexorable works of the corruptors behind the scenes began its well-formulated process of complete takeover. Look back in Shame, everyone. for we are all complicit in the complete meltdown of the last forty years. We swallowed whole the Specterian, “magic bullet”, theory so from there, in the minds of those who’d taken over…we were pushovers. All they had to do was sit back and watch us go at each other’s throats…pushing a button of discord here, assassinating a threatening voice of illummination there…until one day…they could step out of their respectable, inconspicuous costumes and assume their true forms. One more step…World Domination, beginning with 9/11 and damn, they think they’ve won!
I just had an idea I think could REVOLUTIONIZE the world of Professional Sports coverage!
(Bear with me, here)
For YEARS, we’ve been watching professional football from our livingrooms, listening to “play-by-play” commentaries by sportscasters who are either positioned high above the “action,” or worse yet, on the sidelines. It should be clear to us by now that we’re not getting the “taste of the game” that we really deserve.
Imagine how great it would be if the sportscasters were ON one of the teams! I mean, the general managers could look for big, beefy journalists, put them through all of the same training the rest of the “team” endures… Then, on game day, these reporter/athletes would actually PLAY and report LIVE from the field!!
Gone would be the days of watching the game from the distance of the press box… We’d get the REAL story… (Albeit, from only ONE team’s vantage point)...
I think we can all agree that not only the accuracy of the reporting, but the DRAMA of the game would be significantly enhanced…
How about it? Let’s “embed” our sportscasters! (Who’s with me!!?)
So – back from a trip where I found myself being attended to by 2 charming young ladies who gave me their undivided attention for a full 3 hours ……….. shame it was the Dentists really.
But, as I sit scanning through today’s ‘odd-odes’, I find one thing is almost inescapable – this forum is rapidly turning into “The Tim & Tom show”. Hey it’s not a bad thing – the guys have lots of great stuff to share, but I do have my reservations.
I mean – what happens if they’re bought out by CNN (or worse [?!?]) – being forced to give interviews on how THEY think the bulletin boards around the globe will cope with the sudden influx of anti/pro-Michael Moore comments. Or having to make scale models of PC-screens, demonstrating with little push-sticks how people from all around the world are invading the “InTheseTimes” website – switching over to retired HTML programmers for advice on how THEY think the Server could be saved without too much damage to the bits on the hard-drive whilst making sure the power supply is left intact for future use. God – I can see it now …….. “and today’s ‘not-so-special’ guest – (cue drum roll) – here he is – all the way from “pussy-land” (sorry – yesterday’s slur at Canadian’s appears to have backfired!) ……….Spike !!!!!!”
I particularly liked the exchange where Tim relied to Tom, who commented on Tim’s mail about something Tom said in an earlier posting ………… or was it a mail Tom sent ….? Oh – I give up – how about picking some nicknames – like “Spook” and “Speek” – we could really cause some confusion between us then!
PS: Seriously – you’re good guys the both of you (still can’t figure out why someone like Tom is pro-Bush though!).
Hi to the ‘newbies’ too - beer time again – need something to numb the pain (physical and mental) - Spike.
Spike…
Since Tom appears to be away, you want to “go a few rounds” in this debate? (ooo! OOO! I get to be devil’s advocate, okay?)
———-
(Okay…I’m now in the persona of “X-Tim”...sincere supporter of the War on Iraq):
Okay, folks… All of these arguments about motivation for the war, etc, are completely moot. The only question we should be asking ourselves is:
AFTER this thing is over, will the situation of the average Iraqi be improved?
It is X-Tim’s sincere belief that their situation WILL be improved. Who cares if there’s a foreign occupying force in the country. The fact remains that their quality of life will surge ahead as a result of the present military action.
(okay, Spike… Your turn)
Cuuuuueeeeeeeeeee that drum-role …….
(Spike as X-Tom … sincere detractor from the war in Iraq)
It is X-Tom’s sincere belief that their situation will NOT be improved. For starters – McDonalds do NOT have many of the local delicacies on their menu, and I just can’t see Ronald fitted out in a burqa – sorry!
I also feel that the proliferation of existing fast-food takeouts already on Iraqi soil may prove more than a challenge than Ronald may want to admit to. He faces those who want ‘chicken’ as the countries controlling food item, and those who want beef. There are even several offshoots – some prefer their chicken boiled, some prefer it coated in breadcrumbs. These factions have a tremendous history of animosity towards one-another, and have been known to commit sneaky “they’re not fighting by the rules” attacks in order to justify their position and discourage customer satisfaction.
I’m concerned that Ronald may quickly find that along with previous customers - many of whom are getting a bad taste in their mouths about his product – he will find that building the restaurant on a just-demolished site may prove easier than keeping it in business.
I’ll be back later to view the fun – “Angel” is about to start – and as his life-long nemesis I can’t pass up a chance to see someone “open up a can of whoop-ass” and “whip that pussy”.
Spike.
PS: Have I just got a little bit ‘too’ surreal?
X-Spike:
I am uncomfortable at your suggestion that coalition forces will “take advantage” of instabilities in Iraq’s fast-food industry in order to stage some sort of “capitalist takeover.”
I think our leaders have been quite up-front with their promises to use ALL “spoils of war” to rebuild the Iraqi economy… As far as I can tell, once McDonalds franchises have been established, they will be turned over ENTIRELY to average Iraqis. At that point, franchise owners will be free to adjust the menu, as well as the “image” of their restaurants as they see fit. (Though some suggestion has been made that a name-change from “McDonald’s” to “Osama’s” would be vetoed)
If there’s one thing I know about global capitalism, it’s this: It is predicated on the just and fair treatment of ALL of our planet’s people. In the “new Iraq,” the only people who will die will be those who don’t WORK hard enough.
X-Tim (a fictional supporter of the war)
ps—>Tell you what, Spike… You watch your “Angel,” and I’ll catch up on the second season of Buffy, which I just got on DVD… (I can just barely get a “snowy” CBC on my rabbit-ears antenna!)
Isn’t it scary when the majority speak but are totally ignored? I am yet to discuss with ANYONE the positive that can come about as a result of war being declared on Iraq. A peace protest in the town park of Newcastle was organised to coincide with the dropping of the first bombs on Iraq. It was, by all accounts, a peaceful demonstartion, with no-body being arrested. Not the case in Sydney, with dozens of protesters being manipulated into the backs of police trucks (hum along to Dead Kennedies song “Police Truck” now…okay. enough). Just like with the S11 protest a couple of years ago, the commercial television stations (ALL owned by Newscorp.) projected an EXTREMELY biased New World Order friendly angle on the sequence of events that transpired; protesters being forced back from a blockade after “instigating acts of violence.” yeah, acts of violence. I myself was personally responsible for an “act of violence” that lead to me being charged. I hit a copper square in the eye with one of the daisies that i was throwing around the place. I dont think my right shoulder will ever be the same again. Thankfully SBS, a community orientated non-profit television station acuurately covered the events. THEIR cameras seemed to capture NOT the “unprovoked acts of violence” by protesters, but the “unprovoked acts of violence” of the Victorian Police Department. Thank goodness for good old community television! So people, when you see coverage on commercial television that seems to link “unprovoked acts of violence” with peacefull protesters, just stop and think, “this station is headed by one of them that controlls ninety-five percent of this countries wealth. This sequence of events, as displayed to me, is (unfortunately) not to be trusted.
Turn to SBS for more accurate coverage of events that can potentially usurp that five percent of the population.
Keep rocking apple carts, people!
Dear X-Tim of W ……
Spike as X-Tom – who just has an opinion – and it’s humble.
I have to strongly disagree with X-Tim. My previous mail touched on the subject of those who prefer chicken. Most would readily agree that Ronald himself has a fair understanding of chicken from previous ventures – all of which admittedly failed. Many people with questionable food preferences seem to fail to recognize the fact that his latest ventures have largely been built via the use of Bull. Not to mention his less well-known marine ventures which to most smell decidedly fishy.
I also feel that many of the existing restaurants will object to an outsider muscling in on their territory, destroying their livelihood, and then charging the staff to re-build their challenger’s place of business. It will be of little comfort to the masses who are trained in changing burqa’s to find they do not have the ability to flip burgers.
But I digress – the real issue here is who will control the management, who will allocate the contracts for building and outfitting the restaurants, and who will look after the most important element in kitchen economies throughout the world – the cooking oil.
I disrespectfully submit that we should not have a pyromaniac in charge of a combustible element.
Yours – X-Tom – “It’s better to fade out, than burn away”
I live in Idaho, and being raised and surrounded by the far-right, all I have to say is read what the people posting here who are pissed at Moore say carefully. They do not understand the difference between patriotism and fascist nationalism. There’s also a drastic gap in their ignorance and the intelligence of those who applaud moore. They prove the case of the “left” or anyone who can plainly see the idiocy behind a war that will invite more terrorism.
Our USA will profit once Saddam is done for. Right now many American and British coporations are bidding to see who gets to go in and rebuild.
You better beleive if America spends the billions of dollars and has several of t service people killed, it will want to make sure that “investment” was well worth it.
We have a theiving President. God Bless America! Oh, what did you say? There are other people in the world with opinions? God bless America!! What they hate us? Um, ok, hey news guys, keep making sure that this war looks like a Sony Playstation video game, but don’t show real stuff like dead people. God Bless America for we are Free!!
I think it is particularly cynical and shameful of Moore to make such a gross and terribly fabricated opinion. Who is this man anyway? A director . . . Who gives a Sh*t! This man is obviously resentful of the entire Voting conflict involving the election and frankly will say anything to undermine the Republican party and our President. In short he is one major bigot! We can all sit here and we can either be for or against what the President has chosen to do, however, when it comes down to it deep in our guts wel know that Saddam is an evil person who will stop at nothing to acheive his means, including aiding other terrorist groups in the fight to interrupt and destroy the American way of live. How could so many people miss this point! We are not dealing with a rational person when it comes to Saddam, we are dealing with a man who rapes his own country and sits on a pile of riches, a man who oppresses his people and uses terror and torture to force his people into submission. That’s just Saddam, try to do some research on his offspring. . . evil is in his blood. Michael Moore is indirectly accusing our President of having little to no conscience and accusiing him of using our troops to further a business venture. Come on, how stupid and shallow is that . . . this war is far more complex and intricate. There are numerous (too many to mention) extremist groups who hate Americans that will always try to harm us . . . the truth is we will never ever feel the security we felt before 9/11, because we will always live with threat. But wouldn’t it be worse if our government did nothing for our future. At the cost of serious sacrifice by our brave troops, we will be able to breathe easier with Saddam gone and his Regime. So we need to unite and stand behind our President and our troops and have faith that this is for us. Let people like Michael Moore rant and rave and drown in their own cancerous cynicism and feel accomplished by that foolishness, but let the people of faith unite in prayer for our leaders/our troops and truly attempt to understand the magnitude and complexity of this situation and to quit minimizing it. 12 or so years ago we were warned about the evil capabilities of Osama bin Laden, but it was brushed under the rug by the Democratic Party, only to feel the the consequences in 2002. What a shame if we were to fall trap to that again.
Diane,
I will not follow a theif, nor will I respect a lier, that is why I will nor follow George Bush. There is no Gaurantee that we will be more secure after Iraq - NONE! I guess you think it’s ok to kill innocent Iraqis to remove Saddam so you can feel more secure to a “probable” threat? Screw then right? Arabs blood is not as important as American, right?
We had 9-11 comming to us and it will happen agian because we are lead by ignorant Amero/Anglo centric men who share a short sited vision of the world and its actors.
Please click on this link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2907373.stm
I was watching the news tonight, not the mainstream garbage we are fed daily, but news that actually shows what happens at the other end of those spectacular explosions. An Iraqi Christian neighborhood was bombed. Iraqi Christians????? Hmmmm! we thought all Iraqis were, you know, those muslim weirdos! Anyway, an entire family was killed/maimed. The mother who was two-months pregnant lost her baby and was lying in a hospital bed with 200 stitches on her face alone. The dad lost one eye, plus numerous other injuries to other parts of his body. The rest of the children, including a 2-year old little boy, all dead. I wonder why we don’t see this stuff on CNN?
But hey, hang in there folks, because we’re coming to free you!
Hollywood celebs can kiss my behind with all there outspoken bullshit. Who the hell cares what they have to say anyway, they are all going to hell for their infidelities, lies, and hypocrasy. None of them can appreciate in the slightest way a conservative President who actually brings back some dignity to the White House. Why not? Because there is hardly a celebrity who has any dignity left among themselves. Yes, their human . . . and yes their hollywood elite . . . but who suddenly makes them experts in world events. I can see how a degree in Theatre can make your opinion so imporant to the world. Why does everyone think celebrities know it all? Good grief, this guy Moore is a director, and suddenly he’s being praised for speaking out, above all, against our President? Yes it is truly an embarrassment that we have people such as this representing the majority . . . because of the size of his pocket book and the status of his career. Who gave them a front seat to the war, a front seat in the white house or backstage pass to confidential information. The fact is we know much less then what our President and leaders are dealing with and better that way. We couldn’t handle the truth because we live in a world tainted by fear and panic. Sometimes I’m embarrassed by the behaviors of our celebrities because they exploit our beliefs and what us little people (you know the ones that struggle and get our hands dirty each day to make a living) by trying to represent us and claiming their beliefs are shared by the majority. Michael Moore is a Bigot, and frankly I feel that this worlds moral has collapsed thanks to all you liberals who want to remove any sense of accountability from Democrats and place blame on the Bush and the Republican Party for every damn thing in this world. Well, the only arguement is this . . . without faith in God and submitting to him wholeheartedly your only faith is in this world so good luck cause there isn’t a whole lot left to have faith in.
Diane,
Based on your evaluation on what it takes to go to hell, you missed the part about killing innocent people…Thou shalt not kill? That is why your President Bush is going to hell, because he is killing innocent Iraqis.
God Bless the Actors and Michael Moore. Pray to God that we have more of these people in our world, because they are enlightened, aware, and do not see the world through blinders.
Steve,
We had 9/11 coming to us? O bet that’s all of Bush’s fault right? In the last few years in office he has manage to completely bring down the house here in the US? I assume none of this had anything to do with Clinton’s administration, even though he served two terms.
And what will you argue? To reason with a madman . . . that has worked so well during the last 12 years hasn’t it! War is a scary and sad and devestating thing to many, it is not only the iraqi people who feel fear and pain and sadness, we all do. I carry a pit in my stomach every day when I wake up until I go to sleep. I look at my 2 year old and I well up with tears to thiink of the fear that the Iraqi families must have. But I also could not imagine the lifetime of oppression those people have felt and the suffering they feel under the Saddam government. Do they want to be liberated? We won’t know until THEY are certain Saddam has been rid of. Then they will speak out and we will find the truth. There is no war without consequence, and as in the case of the halocaust we moved in far too late as so many . . . so many lives were lost. So if you are so sure of what you believe, then that is your perogative. But I feel we live in a spoiled country, spoiled by our own freedom and numb to those who do not have this great liberty. Everyoone has a conscience here man, no one wants anyone to die, but our entire history is laden with the blood of many Americans, and our liberalism is killing us.
“A great Hero”..Charlton Heston( Ben Hur )
“A dangerous Human Being, who is unaware of this fact”...Charlto Heston( Bowling for Columbine )
One is Fiction the other is Truth, sadly for Mr Heston is own life is not as Great as the one on the silver screen.
Diane,
I never said Clinton was not-guilty of anything. His administration supported the Taliban and supported useless sanctions that helped lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens.
What Clinton did was keep most of the world on our side, and he made a strong effort to unite the Israelis and the Palestinians.
When Bush came in he cancelled numerus treaties, ignored the Middle East, and I beleive 9-11 was primed & ready for what the Bush administration brought.
This war is immoral, and the bottom line is our security will be bought with innocent Iraqi blood and the blood of our service people.
10 Million people in 600 cities marched against war, the largest unified war protest ever! This means people are not convinced that war is the answer.
Liberlaism is not to blame. Extreme conservativsim bordering on fascism represented by this administration is much more dangerous then Hollywood or Michael Moore.
What’s more to blame is our governemnt’s piss on the world attitude or, if you are not with us, we will make you pay…some of the worst crimes were committed under “Conservative” watch in Washington - especially in the Reagan years…look up Nicaragua
moore is a brave man and he gives me faith in democracy and peace
For most North Americans, 911 is a “cut and dried” story - evil Arab terrorists attacked the US, there’s nothing more to learn. At worst, in many people’s minds, there was an “intelligence failure” of missed warnings that need to be addressed to prevent a repeat (the excuse for the new Homeland Security behemoth). However, there are lots of “unanswered questions” that suggest a much different story:
—why was the CIA was running a simulation of a plane hitting the National Reconnaissance Office HQ (near Dulles) on 911 (www.oilempire.us/wargames.html)
—why numerous warnings from allied governments were supposedly ignored (at least a dozen countries, possibly more, warned the US that 911 was coming)
—why the General in charge of Air Defense received a PROMOTION to run the “domestic” use of the US military
—why the planes that eventually were scrambled traveled much, much slower than they are capable of traveling, especially in an emergency (ie. after the second tower was hit but before the Pentagon)
—why the part of the Pentagon that was hit was the only part that had almost no one in it, and the part that had been strengthened against such an attack
—why the CEO of Fiduciary (in the towers) just happened to be at a “fundraiser” sponsored by Warren Buffett at Offutt AFB (strange place for a charity fundraiser) on 911, the same base that Bush went to in the afternoon
—why Bush showed no reaction when told of the attacks, and kept reading to second graders (and why his aide, Andrew Card, didn’t even wait to ask for a reply from the “President”)
—why Bush had anti-aircraft missiles set up around Genoa, Italy during the July 2001 G-8 summit (due to concerns about a 911 type attack) but not around the Capitol despite numerous warnings that 911 was coming
—why the director of the “commission” to investigate 9-11 is a business partner of Osama bin Laden’s brother in law (Gov Thomas Kean, formerly of New Jersey, is a director of Amerada Hess, which is invested in the Saudi consortium to build the fabled pipeline across Afghanistan ...) Even Fortune magazine has picked up on that. see http://www.oilempire.us/investigation.html
—why the Bush regime interfered with the investigation of al-Qaeda before 911, something that FBI whistleblowers, journalist Greg Palast and FBI counterterrorism director John O’Neill charged.
“In some ways she was far more acute than Winston, and far less susceptible to Party propaganda. Once when he happened in some connection to mention the war against Eurasia, she startled him by saying casually that in her opinion the war was not happening. The rocket bombs which fell daily on London were probably fired by the Government of Oceania itself,
it wasn’t anyone “Islamic” who ensured that our Trillion Dollar Air Force did not scramble to intercept the 911 planes until it was too late ... 911 was NOT an intelligence failure
www.oilempire.us
“If I were the president, I could stop terrorist attacks against the United States in a few days. Permanently. I would first apologize to all the widows and orphans, the tortured and impoverished, and all the many millions of other victims of American imperialism. Then I would announce, in all sincerity, to every corner of the world, that America’s global interventions have come to an end, and inform Israel that it is no longer the 51st state of the USA but now—oddly enough—a foreign country. I would then reduce the military budget by at least 90% and use the savings to pay reparations to the victims. There would be more than enough money. One year’s military budget of 330 billion dollars is equal to more than $18,000 an hour for every hour since Jesus Christ was born. That’s what I’d do on my first three days in the White House. On the fourth day, I’d be assassinated.”
—William Blum, author of Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II, and Rogue State: A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/WhyTerroristsHateAmer.html
It is striking that especially the people who consider themselves such good American citizens, deny others to make use of their basic right, to speak their mind, freely.
Their hostile and very agressive attitude more has totalitarian aspects “you can say whatever you want to say, as long as you say what *I* want you to say”.
Freedom of speech is also letting others have their say, even though you don’t agree.
That is one of the basic rules of FREEDOM. “Freedom” ,you know, the word thay you all take in your mouth so swiftly, but of which you don’t seem to have a grasp of what it truely means.
I do not idolize people and don’t follow anyone blindly (like so many of you seem to be willing to do int his or any other war). But I have huge admiration for Michael Moore and his courage and vision to conitnue to tell, show and write his views against all odds, hostilities, agression, lies and hypocrisy.
He continues to dare to act upon his basic civil right: freedom of speech.
And with that he tries to reach the people who are so foten fed with misinformation and half-truths.
my hat goes off to michael moore . while there are people like him willing to speak out there is still hope .also i notice how in your list below how uninteligent his critics are [ he should be shot etc] unless you have something intelligent to say you should shut up….
Oh yeah, I forgot about something:
To those people who claim of think that the Iraq war is for the liberation of the people of Iraq:
I do grand those people their freedom. But please don’t act as if America is on a humanitarian mission! The (fake) reason was to seek and destroy Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. NONE were found so far.
In the meantime Bush and his buddies have their eyes set on the oilfields, cause imagine that you’d produce and use fuel efficient cars…
Besides that it’s partly also a battle of ideologies. Reason has been set aside for another crusade. Whoever said that the Dark Ages were over?
And, very very important: if you are so much concerned about the poor oppressed people in other countries, what have you or your country done for the MILLIONS of African people who are STARVING to death at this very moment that your country is blowing billions and billions of dollars to hell (again), to destruct and kill??
Are you perhaps ashamed to give attention to STARVING people in the country where obecity has reached propostorous levels?
And there are many many examples where all the money and effort that America puts in its organisation of militarism instead could relieve countless millions of people from their misery. THAT would lead to more stability and contentment. And THAT would lead to less hatred…and thus terrorism.
Thous, I admit, there will always be people who are never satisfied…
Its amazing and too sad that some people ar still ignorant and hatful even after they have seen the magnificent work of Mr. Moore, I guess they have been brain damiged for life.
Thanks too the academy award for giving Mr. Moore a well urned oscar.
Shame on you governor Bush and shame on you Charlton Heston.
for oh yeah
even if moore’s film was a fiction, the dead people speak by themselves. no shooting no deads it’s as simple as that, no weapons no shooting, when walking in the streets in italy I do not get any fear because I know very few carry weapons, it’s not the same at yours where any disturbed guy can carry a UZI anytime
honestly, I do not fucking care for the american/british soldiers fighting and risking their lives, they just could have said NO to this senseless war, if they decided to obey to stupid orders from stupid people they became stupid themselves. Use your brain and not the ass when making important decisions, defense is ok, offense isn’t. do not come crying when some other relative of some arab victim will claim revenge and kill your sons, this will be the right harvest for your seeds
I was may be too hard in my last post, ok I’m sorry for any loss from any side, just do not go seeking death and everything will be all right
as I already said, go and spread peace not war, but can’t you realize that once you are hated by even the quietful europeans this means that you really have something wrong? and do not come up and say that france has interests in Iraq because in any case these interests were not created through bombings
Innocent lives were taken on 9/11, we did not wage war on innocent people, terrorists waged war on us, on our country. President Bush gave Saddam a choice, and if Saddam had any intention of surrendering in any way shape or form he would have done so without the cost of war. But sadly, he chose to bring this upon himself and his people and his country. The person to blame for loss of innocent lives is Saddam and not our President. He was given a fair altimatum and ignored it wholeheartedly. I’m sick of hearing people continuously blaming President Bush and his administration. The blood of innocents will rest on the hands of Saddam, a madman who only wants to acheive his own means and cares very little about the lives in his country. Who continues to tell his people to fight to the death instead of asking them to lay down there weapons in what is already inevitable . . . defeat! But he would rather encourage bloodshed. That is who you should be blaming! You are in the dark man, your eyes blinded essentially by your own foolish misinformation.
Well, thanks for clearing up the bohs at the oscars. I really was wondering why I could not find one sole boh’er at the audience whenever the camera showed them, but instead a lot of clapping and grinning.
And allow me a small comment on the comments. Opinions are different about this war, and with all the propaganda, truce is hard to find. But I do find it very interresting, that most of those against war point out their view in a polite and intelligent way, while most of those pro war just throw with pointless insults and empty phrases.
By the way, Arjen, obesity in our country is a self inflicted problem. Parents and individulas are accountable for getting fat. No one forces a cheeseburger down anyones throat 2x a day (especially children who can’t even drive themselves to fast food places)—that’s the blessing of freedom . . freedom of choice. It’s absolutely dumb to blame our government for not tending to this issue. I eat healthy and exercise and do not eat fast food because we have been taught of the lasting effects of our diet. Give me a break, the information is out there for everyone to learn and utilize it is up to us to apply it to our lives. All you people continue to push the importance of freedom of this freedom of that, and then when that freedom is partly to blame for us making irrational choices, we blame the government, or the President. How easy to blame instead of take accountability. There are so many issues in this country that yes, need tending, however the most immediate which compromises the safety of our nation is priority.
Also, the military has a an agenda, you don’t stop to look for weapons of Mass Destruction when you have an agenda to follow. You have to remain focused on one agenda as not to compromise the safety of the troops. There agenda first is to secure baghdad and make it safe to romp around Iraq looking for the stuff. It is highly likely they will discover chemical weapons and others that Saddam blatently lied and said he didn’t have.
I would like to comment that Michael Moore’s opinion is not that of Majority. Just look at the polls for crying out loud, there is great support for our President’s mission and I for one bakc him 100%.
Tim and Spike from Canada,
You two are hysterical!! I never new that intilligent Canadians had such quick and incisive wit! I laughed all the way to the coffee machine and back from your satirical X-Tim and X-Tom debate. Or maybe it wasn’t satirical at all? Fast food operations are serious business.
I noticed that Steve and Diane also had a spirited joust while at the same time you guys degenerated.
I don’t plan on performing cartwheels for my employers today, so I’ll have time to chip in on occasion.
Tim, you really stumped on your last couple postings yesterday, and I’m still trying to formulate an answer that will make me look informed and that will do justice to my “side.”
Cheers….
I think the war is disgusting and those for it have not seen the pictures of innocent iraqi people grive for their loved ones. Everything about this war is sick. Comparisons should be made between Bush and Hitler. Michael Moore is an honorable person who stands up for what is right. He needs to be taken more seriously
It appears that Diane and I are on the same page. FINALLY I’m not the only one!!
Mairead from Ireland:
What POSSIBLE comparisons can you draw between Bush and Hitler? That comment has been made on this site a good number of times, and I gets more ridiculous each time.
Last time I checked, our country didn’t have dozens of concentration camps (not to be confused with internment camps) operating in the woods.
Last time I checked, Bush didn’t execute a secret re-armament of this country over a period of 20 years.
Last time I checked, Bush hasn’t executed any top military officials who disagree with him.
Last time I checked, Bush has not placed himself in direct operational control of military operations.
Shall I continue? Point hopefully made.
There are many Americans speaking out against war, but only because we feel guilty. Are any Americans taking action to stop it? No, of course not. If the rest of the world does not stop this administration, with actions not words, you are just as guilty of killing children as we are. Don’t expect the people in this country to do anything, we’re all busy trying to watch American Idol every fucking nite.
Michael Moore is exactly what this country needs more of. He is someone who is passionate about what he believes in and knows that he speaks for the majority of Americans. Believe it or not the right to free speech doesn’t just disappear during the Academy Awards.
so in your opinion if bush say to anybody to do what he wants they should immediately obey? what is saddam’s part in the freaking 9/11?
what the UN is there for? what the international laws are there for? saddam may have broken the law but bush is outlaw just as much, we can call misinformation what you call information, I have seen your tv nes, only murders and 5 seconds of international affairs, can you honestly tell that you are informed about the world? and what aboutnewspapers? local local local news about idiot things, murders and 5 lines of international affairs, then again americans cannot even spot their hometown on the maps, know nothing about history , may be they think that stealing the land to native americans was a holy mission ordered by god….. he who kills is never innocent even when killing the guilty, lets’ just think about death sentences in the US, if you can kill your people by court order, no wonder how you fly to other countris and kill defenseless innocents. the matter of fact is that the world is sick and tired of you cowboys running wild around and shooting, please kill yourselves with your free weapons and do a favour to the peaceful world, use your freedom in your country, and when dealing with other countris just do not break international laws and agreements becoming war criminals worst than the ones you are claiming to be evil (at least do not sponsor them when it is convenient to you ...remember Iraq/Iran war? and Bin Laden against Russians?)
Let us examine the facts. Or at least this one fact: Bush did not win the election. That is the irrefutable truth. It is absolutely horrid and wrong that he is in the White House. In correspondance with that sad fact, every action made by him is wrong. So, by association, this war is wrong. Just incorrect. Bad. It is by this simple process of dedution that we can arrive at the simple truth.
for Tom
last time I checked USA got plenty of weapons of mass destruction and always last time, nobody ordered them to get rid of it, they kindly asked and you cowboys of course refused and are still testing new weapons, how come that USA is out of any interational cooperation for justice, peace and environmental preservation?
this of course, last time I checked…
I’d like to concur with what my fellow citizen Mairead (although I don’t know her) said about Bush
Fabio from Italy,
I was going to respond to your posting, but you threw in there the phrase “you cowboys” which pretty much negated everything you said.
Generalizing the people of an entire nation, as I have mentioned on this site several times, is weak and ingnorant and lends no credibility to the argument.
And Demo from Negative (which your definitely are), same thing for you! You said that we (Americans) are too busy watching American Idol every night. We don’t watch network television programs in my household. I’ve never seen an episode of American Idol or any other garbage reality show.
If we are going to post our opinions on this site, let’s try to put our best foot forward and stay away from generalizing 280 million Americans based on pre-ordained lies and misconceptions.
Ok, lets see if I get this one right.
We all agree that Saddam would best not rule anything bigger that a remote control for his television.
This one is pretty clear to me, too. What I did not quite understand why he wasn’t eliminated at Gulf War I?
But here we sit, him still in charge, and now soilders are storming into the country, killing other soilders, innocent bystanders, each other, a bus filled with 17 women and childs.
What I do not quie get is: Why now? Saddam hasn’t appeared all in a sudden a few weeks ago. What was the relevant reason to start this war?
It’s very unlikely that Saddam has anything to do with 11/9… neither is there any proof of even the smallest relation.
Mass Destruction Weapons are yet to be found. He may still have them, he may not. We do not know. War started anyway.
Big part of the world is not happy with the war solution. Bigger one than the alliance of the willing. Not that this seems to matter. Nor did it matter that in fact, more americans voted for Gore than for Bush. This seems to be something american I do not quite get, but maybe that’s just me.
Not even the tortured and surpressed and god knows what Iraqis do want to be ‘freed’ by the americans. Nor will they be very thankful for being bombed and shot by accident. Noone says that the civilist are killed on purpose, but these things happen during war, and was was started while other solutions were still worked out… any may have worked, or may have not, but we won’t know, will we?
What do you think, how long must this war run to have as many civilians killed as were on 11/9?
Ok, there are those who say: We must get rid of Saddam, War will work, any other ideas? No? See.
But, really, does eliminating a wrong make an other wrong right? And where will this end? Really, there’s so many wrong out there, in so many countries, not even the almost almighty USA can affort to start war against all of them. So, where does one draw the line?
And why this hurry? Why not at least try the peaceful way as suggested by the majority (including the inspectors), and if everything else fails, start the war with backup by the majority? And don’t tell me about all those who might get killed in the meantime… didn’t interrest anyone since Gulf War I…
Anyone who could explain some or all of those questions in a polite and intelligent kind of way would be welcome. And don’t flame me for my english, I am german, after all.
I’d like to concur with what my fellow citizen Mairead said about Bush and this aggressive invasion of the Iraqi people. Bush is behaving like Hitler. He did execute his own people down in Texas. He did seize power without the vote of the people. He does want the American Empire to control the world, just like Hitler wanted Europe to be German. At the moment, Bush is getting what he wants and its truly sickening. The real axis of evil is Bush, Blair and Aznar(Spanish PM) or Bertie, the Irish PM who is just as stupid as Bush. They are more of a threat to the world than Saddam or Iraq will ever be. Can’t those Americans that support Bush and this aggression realise that terrorism will perpetuate until American foreign policy changes for the better in the eyes of the terrorists? There will 10,000 Bin Ladens at the end of all this butchery by Bush and his trigger happy army. Let us see the 37 or so dead Iraqis the “Coalition” murdered yesterday
on TV please. Why can’t we see the truth, the reality of war? We have to stop these Nazis getting all gleeful with all this blood on their hands and they getting away with us seeing “fighter planes” or missiles flying through the sky. You know what the world needs? For America to be the greatest democracy on earth requires the dismantling of the two-party duopoly - the Democrats and Republicans. The Democrats are not against this war. So to achieve a multi-party system you must campaign for electoral reform. Go proportional like us in Ireland, Finland, Sweden, etc. Only Britain still has the system you took from them. Thats why Blair could get away with this war - his party has 63 % of the seats in parliament but he only got 44% of the votes. In addition you need to boycott that stupid media somehow. Also join the Green Party. Green Parties are busy in up to 100 countries. They are in government in about 5. They have the solutions to the world’s problems. We need to vote Green so that the world’s economies, societies and environments can survive and coexist peacefully. So go to the website of the Green Party of the United States if you want to do your bit towards creating a new world that is peaceful, sustainable, comfortable and exciting
www.gpus.org
I am so glad Michael Moore has a voice that can be heard, as did Norman Mailer….how i would love that…...I been a fan of yours forever…...speak loud with passion…....for if only 1% listen your job is done…......well done yank…..not all white men are stupid
Stefan from Munich, Germany,
That was a great posting! I liked it so much that I printed it off and I would like to answer some of your questions, based of course on my opinions and what I think to be true. And no need to apologize for your English - it is just fine!
Why was Saddam Hussein not eliminated in Gulf War 1? Because that wasn’t the objective. The only mission was to liberate Kuwait, which we did. People have tried to re-write history since then saying that we failed because Saddam was not toppled at the time. Not true.
Why war now? Because the United Nations failed in their duty and several of our NATO allies chose not to stand with us. I believe that if some other countries, who are allied with the United States, shown more moral courage, war could have been averted. That is JUST MY OPINION (for all of you who are reading this and already formulating which insults to throw my way).
In fact, more people did vote for President Bush than for Gore. A full audit was conducted of the Florida balloting several months after Bush took office and it was revealed that, in fact, Bush won by a very small margin, the majority of that state. Not that the popular vote even matters. In America, we have what is called the Electoral College, which decides Presidential elections. There have been a couple instances in our history where this has happened.
As far as you saying that even the tortured people of Iraq do not want to be “freed” by America - I would disagree with that. As best I can tell, Iraq is just like everywhere else: some people are in support of military action and some people are against it. I really do believe that a vast number or Iraqi citizens know there is a better life to be lived without Saddam Hussein in charge.
Anyway, those are just some of my thoughts. Hopefully you found them to be polite and intelligent.
Cheers…...
Thank god that Mike Moore has the guts to continue his stand against the thief in the white house who is killing innocents around the world in coalition with the Blair weasel and the Howard rat! Shame on you Mr Bush indeed. As Mr Dylan once wrote, “even Jesus would never forgive what you do” - Masters Of War.
15 minutes? michael moore has been blessing us with his films and books since the late 80s!
rock on.
for tom
when did I mention american idol? by the way it’s a retarded show in my opinion and the fact that it has such an audience tells it all…
Edna from Ireland,
You refer to Bush and his “trigger happy army.”
As a former United States Army Infantryman, I VERY much resent that comment. I can GAURANTEE you that we are not “trigger happy.” We have always been reluctant warriors and we have always tried to conduct ourselves as we have always been throughout our history: patriotic young Americans who thought it was more worthwhile to spend our youth serving our country in uniform.
More stupid generalizations about Americans…..
With the exception of Stefan’s fine missive, the postings this morning have dismal at best.
Fabio,
That American Idol thing was directed to Demo from Negativeland - sorry for the confusion…...
let’s not generalize:
all my critics are addressed to the americans supporting bush and his unlawful war, I love all the other liberal americans who fight against it and get arrested for that, showing that the west is not immune from dictators
Michel Moore is a hero. And I think that all those warmongering pussies behind their computers should either get their fat ass up and go fight in Iraq, or just SHUT UP. Thanks.
Tom from Denver, my name is not Edna. Its E N D A. Its an Irish male name. I know you probably thought you saw Edna. Just, I get tired of it.
I said your troops were trigger happy because they are:
“....On March 21, the day after American and British troops began their illegal
invasion and occupation of Iraq, an “embedded” CNN correspondent interviewed
an American soldier. “I wanna get in there and get my nose dirty,” Private
AJ said. “I wanna take revenge for 9/11.”
To be fair to the correspondent, even though he was “embedded” he did sort
of weakly suggest that so far there was no real evidence that linked the
Iraqi government to the September 11 attacks. Private AJ stuck his teenage
tongue out all the way down to the end of his chin. “Yeah, well that stuff’s
way over my head,” he said.”
-From an article by Arundhati Roy in today’s Guardian. [www.guardian.co.uk]
Tom, you talk about being civilised on this comment page. Well I’d appreciate it if you didn’t take the easy way out with the rebuttals to one part of my comment. I went and copied the piece for you so that you wouldn’t think I was making a silly assumption of the US troops.
So could you please respond to my question about American foreign policy above?
While Michael Moore broke what was suppoed to be a ban on political comments during the awards, he was not alone. Actors and filmmakers who are american citizens should continue to stand for their right to have a political opionion and to express it if they want to - just like anyone else. At least the so-called unpopular voices in hollywood seem to be a little more informed than the average american - especially judging from some of the other responses to this article. Michael Moore has become less charmingly comedic in his approach, though, and that has hurt him. Do what you do best, Michael. Remember the days of TV Nation. Do more of that - get your camera back into the action. Give the American people something to see.
To Tom from Denver, CO
Thanks for your answeres, and yes indeed, I found them most polite and intelligent, no matter if I agree or not. I also find them very refreshing to read within all that throwing around of “I’ve heard"s as so called facts. That doesn’t get anyone anywhere, beside making his or her point clear, and that can be done by a simple one-sentence-statement… although it isn’t that simple with most things, is it?
Lets get to your answeres:
Saddam and Gulf War I
Yep, wasn’t the objective, then. Thats also what I learned. But still, the wrongdoings of him were known then, or am I wrong in that point? So why wasn’t it the objective then, but is now? Let me make this clear: I don’t think it is a good solution to chop off one head to change a regieme, all too often that doesn’t change all too much in the long run. Getting the people change their point of view and get rid of their dictators is more productive, though harder to archieve. But if Saddam must be removed by force (which seems to me the main reason for this war, if there is any), why not then? Could’ve saved a number of lived I get sick alone thinking about.
Why war now
Someone messed up big time, I agree with you on that one. After all, Gulf War I got the inspectors in, and somehow, noone got upset all too much when they were removed again. Not to mention the political possibilities that could’ve used to make a real change. But somehow, noone seemed too eager to get involved and better forget that this war happened, after all, it didn’t get that much good media.
So, something went wrong, but it is going wrong for quite a few years, and that’s why I really wonder: What made america return to that subject all in a sudden? Or at least that what it seemed to me, correct me if I am wrong.
And if all the allies would’ve stand closed behind america, would that have prevented the war? I, personally, think: No. Saddam wouldn’t have removed himself, he’s more the type “Kill me or leave me”. He would try the diplomatic tango when under pressure, well, he did, after all. But I can hardly imagine how more pressure but IT WILL BE WAR could have archieved, yet changed anything. Inspectors were in again, cooperation, if slow, but was growing. Removing him this way: No chance. Peacefully, that could only be happening with enough time and efford, changing the body instead of going for the head. Or that’s what I make out of history, again, I could very well be wrong.
Bush/Gore
More voted for Bush, counting all votes in america? Well, that’s news for me <g> but you live and learn. Could you post me a source for that? I find you faithful, but bringing that into converstion based on “Well, someone in a form posted it” won’t win you an argument ;-)
Besides, what I heard and read, there are some kind of unclear points with all those not counted votes, election papers being unclear (Jews voting for radical right candidates and so on, well, I think, you know these stories better than I do) which still makes me a bit uneasy about that man sitting in the white house…
Yeah, heard of that election system of yours. find it kind of confusing, one being able to rule but not really having the most votes. But as far as I know, america is not the only one having this possible, and no matter if Bush is the rightful president or not, or whatever I think about that, it doesn’t really change anything on the situation in Iraq. Nice side story, though, and hard to resist mentioning it <g>
Iraq people urge to be freed
Lots of them want to get rid of Saddam (though, related to a friend of mine, who is half arabian, not that many as we are told), but even so, most of them really hate the americans. Which is, in my opinion, not very juste, but I can understand them. I wouldn’t like those who think they know what’s good for me and what not without them really understanding my culture. And throwing bombs at me. And killing women and childs. This is a very narrow point of view, but that is what it must look for them. And again, helping them get rid of Saddam out of their own power (and not leaving them behind after mission is done, which I can understand under political views, but didn’t help to make friends over there, not a bit) would really, really make a change in the region. War, on the other hand, tends to fire the hatred, and sadly, this tends to end in terrorism. And noone likes that. Makes the world a much less nice place to live, really, I mean, how much must you hate an ideological collection of people, called country, to send your childs packed with explosives to their houses and… ah well, this makes me too sick to carry on. But this hate must have a reason. Doesn’t spring up just like that. And war, in my opinion, isn’t good for reducing hatred. Too many childs and loved ones die. Hard to forgive someone who killed your child, one side or the other.
I don’t want to change anyone opinion. Everyone has the right to think his or her way, and make their point clear (though I am not all too unhappy if I can make someone richer on a new point of view…). I respect everyone that can make his or her point clear and is willing to listen to mine. And, especially with a subject as shaking as this one, I really, really want to understand all sides. That’s why I ask questions. Besides, I think, good questions somethimes are worth more than not though-through answeres.
Thanks for reading,
Stefan
alias
NightPoet
Enda from Ireland,
Sorry about the typo on your name. I also hate it when people jack up my oldest son’s name, which is also a male Irish name.
I have been engaging in the debate on this site for about five days now. At first I found it invigorating to be in the minority of viewpoints on this site, of not having to “preach to the choir,” but now I’m growing very weary of it. I have really been trying to take the high road here, but the more filth, anger, misconceptions, and insults directed toward my homeland that I have had to put up with on this site, the more I am thinking of just bowing out at this time.
I obviously cannot change the mind of anybody on this site who hates America so much as to call us Nazis and I CERTAINLY won’t be swayed by anybody who just throws lies, misconceptions, and generalizations at me.
I’m sorry you all hate America. I’m sorry you all hate American soldiers. I’m sorry you all hate American citizens.
I leave with this: I love it here. I love my homeland of America. There is no other place on the face of this Earth I would rather raise my family. I believe in our President (waiting for the rants of “redneck chump” and “Nazi dupe”), I believe in the current military action (waiting for the inevitable “war-monger” and “baby-killer” epithets), and I believe in our young, patriotic men and women in uniform so much that it actually brings tears to my eyes. I’m proud of my country.
But what do I know? I’m just a college-educated family man who has made something of himself and provided a safe and stable home for his wife and children in this great homeland of mine.
I’m out.
stefan is an example of the european well learned lesson about peace, only once you experienced war you’ll make every effort to avoid it
my grandpa fought in wwII and always talked to me about it and so did many other old guys, the memory is still well alive , we do not forget we’ve been freed by us but we paid our dues in these last 50 years now we are finallly able to stand up and express our opinion and recognize that this has nothing to do with european liberation, it’s just a not so smart move to steal some dirty oil, which it’s not worth one single life
not an american life, not an Iraqui life
tom from your last post I must say you are definitely hopeless, and insulting you would not be the right thing to do
just maybe read some more books, whatch less television, put yourself more in the place of the other, be less egoistic, all right your sons are very important, but are they so much more important than anybody’s else sons? are you all so much more importants than the rest of the world so that anybody should work togheter happy for your welfare? isn’t your wellness just as important as the one of another planet earth inhabitant?
Your comments echo my heart, soul and mind regarding the state of our national leadership. Mr. Bush is a lying thug, illegally in office. You have my resounding support for not leaving your American citizenship at the door!!
I pray to God that we still have freedom of speech. I hope that it also applies to expression in emails. I tried to email Michael Moore and Ramsey Clark but both messages were given an error message as I tried to send them.
To TOM,
sorry to see you leave, you seem a reasonalbe guy to me, but I can understand that all those insults and those who do not want to argue but simply make their point clear, any price taken, can wear off on you. Hope you do not put me in the baby-killer-argument-group. I do not see americans as baby killers. God beware. But war does kill childs. No way around that one. American childs (was really shocked when I heard of the liberated 19-year-old-female-soilder… she is a child by some caring parents for sure, which doesn’t make all this better in any way) and Iraqi childs. And this is sad, and feeds hatred, and should be prevented if possible.
Michael Moore has been a mentor role model for me since “Roger and Me” a documentary on the closing down of the auto industry and the economy of flint, Michigan his hometown. He exposed through consistent effort against all odds the mode of operations of corporate america. He has been caring about people for many years and is brave enough today to try to educate those who are blinded by their un-education. It doesn’t take much research(outside mainstream corporate media)to find out that he is telling the sad truth. I thank him for doing it in a way that makes me laugh….
Okay…I’m back, and am keen to engage this today, not only with Tom(Denver), but with Diane(Chicago)... (Welcome, Diane! We try to keep it “friendly,” here, by the way…)
I’m going to employ a slightly different tactic this morning, but one I feel is quite relevant to our discussion. I’m struck that both of your views are pretty closely aligned with the position being expressed by CNN (I follow war coverage on a number of “network news websites”).
You will have no doubt noticed, by now, that many people in the world (well, people in this forum, at any rate) are extremely cynical about the content of “big American” news coverage. I, myself, have been awed by the difference between the coverage I’m seeing between American networks and any other international source.
It becomes clear, when you look at multiple news sources, that SOMEONE is lying, or at least stretching the charitable bounds of truth. For a really good comparison, look at BBC coverage, since their country is ALSO involved in the war… (It’s too easy to say that our Canadian coverage is “anti-war” simply because we are on record as “non-participants”.. Though, interestingly, the presence of our ships and troops in the gulf had us listed on the list of the “willing,” at one point last week)
So…. Either the mainstream US media is lying, or the rest of the world’s media are involved in an elaborate, international conspiracy to fabricate “the other side” of this cut-and-dried conflict.
I think a good place to look for some way to arbitrate between these competing “truths” is history.
(Case Study: Gulf War I— in next message)
NOTE: Tom! Don’t leave!
Evaluating mainstream media through historical precedent
(Case Study: Gulf War I)
While I’m sure many of the self-professed media critics on this site are already aware of what I’m going to cite here, I have reason to believe that certain cross-sections of the educated public still haven’t heard this story.
During the days leading up to Gulf War I, as the US executive branch began to rally support for an armed intervention, the Public Relations firm, “Hill and Knowlton,” was hired. As part of the PR firm’s mandate to build support for war, they ran an $11.5 million dollar campaign known to us now as “the incubator story.”
In short, the story of Iraqi soldiers throwing Kuwaiti babies from their incubators–the story, incidentally, that galvanized public support for war–was a complete fabrication. Subsequent investigation by non-US media, and international organizations such as Amnesty International, revealed that not only was there no evidence that the “incubator atrocities” had ever happened, but the “key witness” in the story, a supposedly “average” young Kuwaiti girl named “Nayirah”, was in fact the daughter of Kuwait’s ambassador to the United States.
Please read the links, below, and then ask yourself what critical lense you are applying to THIS war’s news coverage.
http://www.cjr.org/year/92/5/war.asp
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3589/us-iraq-lie.html
Thanks Michael…...it was amazing and I think you are GREAT!
Tom: (from Denver)
In one of your postings this morning, you said:
“Tim, you really stumped on your last couple postings yesterday, and I’m still trying to formulate an answer that will make me look informed and that will do justice to my “side.”
I’ll be really disappointed if you withdraw from this debate before responding to my queries. I have never abused you during the course of our discussions, and for you to withdraw entirely because a few people don’t know how to not throw rocks…. Well, frankly, I think it’s unfair to Spike and me.(grin)
Tell you what. If you want to ditch the public forum, I’d be happy to continue via e-mail (though I realize there is some risk in throwing my e-mail out to the public, given some of the rants on this site…)
You can contact me through .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
SPIKE:
Tom and I are talking via email… It’d be great to have you join us!
(contact me at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address))
I hope that there are more Americans as clever and as courageaous as Moore!
Dear Tina, (relating to a Forum Note of yours)
And what if your nephew doesn’t come home safely??? (I hope he does) What then, he? What when your lovely president sent him to die in Iraq? Would you stand behind your president? By the way, God will more likely dig in his nose and bless the snot than to bless america! You know God doesn`t like people gettin killed to much, and ya know, I think he likes people who send innocent people to their deaths even less… sorry but that’s just the way God is… you know he’s a nice guy, I think and perhaps he’s right about the whole killing issue… I think Bush will burn in hell if he doesn’t turn around and I think he won’t do that. Sorry but God is against war, I thought you know that, but hey listen, don’t worry, there is a book which can teach you stuff like this, there you can learn what God is all about, it’s called the Bibel! Maybe you should take your time and read a bit about God. There’s one sentence…ehm…it sais something like you shall not kill or murder or something…I dunno…maybe take a look at that passage especially!? I think your president, who by the way was elected by the minority (strange democracy rules in your country ?), did you know that? ha kind a funny, you know in Germany the Chancler is elected by the majority….dunno anyway… I think your president misunderstood the Bibel…. ‘you shall kill’? I dunno..maybe someone tells him his misunderstanding before its gettin emberassing…like my spelling!?
May your nephew get home well, may he not see the brutality of war! And God please let him not kill anyone!
MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON AMERICA!
Forgive the american war-fanatics for they don’t know what they do! They all missunderstood your words in the bibel, it’s not their fault, perhaps they can’t read properly…please great God forgive the american people who are supporting this war and bless those who understood you very well and those who don’t drop 900 kilo Bombs on Iraqi People. Protect the innocent, good lord! Amen
Arend Remmers, Berlin, Germany
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
By the way, God will more likely dig in his nose and bless the snot than to bless america! You know God doesn`t like people gettin killed to much, and ya know, I think he likes people who send innocent people to their deaths even less…
MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON AMERICA!!!!
Sing to the tune “If You’re Happy And You Know It Clapp Your Hands”
If we cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets hurt your Mama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are Saudi,
And the bank takes back your Audi,
And the TV shows are browdy,
Bomb Iraq.
If the corporate scandals growin’, bomb Iraq.
And your ties to them are showin’, bomb Iraq.
If the smoking gun ain’t smokin’,
We don’t care, and we’re not jokin’,
That Saddam will soon be croakin’,
Bomb Iraq.
Even if we have no allies, bomb Iraq.
From the sand dunes to the valleys, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections,
Let’s look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.
While the globe is slowly warming, bomb Iraq.
Yay! the clouds of war are storming, bomb Iraq.
If the ozon hole is growing,
Some things we prefer not knowing,
(Tough our ignorence is showing).
Bomb Iraq.
So here’s one for dear old daddy, bomb Iraq.
From his favorite little laddy, bomb Iraq.
Saying no would look like treason,
It’s the Hussein hunting season,
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq!
Tom, look, none of us are calling you yourself a Nazi per se. Its really the junta in charge that are the Nazis. And I don’t hate America. Or its people. What I detest is its politics and foreign policy, which are not a product of the people, but rather of the failed electoral and wider political system. You must realise that until radical reforms occur in these areas, this “hate” as you put it will fester and create more problems. For that to happen you must understand why we detest your political system, American foreign policy and the Nazis in control of all that. OK?
“I usually watch
I just want to say that Americans and the way my own country is going scares me more than Mr. H., Bin Laden or any terrorist I’ve ever heard of. Voilence scares me because people get hurt. Americans don’t seem to understand that voilence and pain and suffering is not a mandatory part of every day life. Mr. H. & Laden only exist in their current capacities because of American and British meddling in other people’s affairs this last couple of centuries. I don’t believe everything I hear just because I want to believe it, whether it be Bush or Mr. Moore - but picking out the lies and inconsistencies in Bush and American media and my own leader Mr. Blair whom I do have some respect for is very easy which gives some credence to Mr. Moore. I recommend American’s see www.bbc.co.uk and check out the streaming bbc news 24 programme - not completely unbiased but hosting open interviews from all sides and fairer reporting than what I’ve seen on streaming American news channels.
Juvinile, maybe, but it does not take an underdeveloped mind to tell you that no one boos the booers. Give me a freaking break. Of course Mr. Moore’s opposition came from the balcony. This is where the REAL people sit, not on the front row with the celebrities. The REAL people arrive to the Oscar awards in clothing purchased by THEMSELVES. (not given to them by Italian designers). They drive THEMSELVES to the ceremony, and, in these situations, they aren’t afraid to boo when they want to. REAL people do not go to award ceremonies at their own jobs and spray their own liberal opinions everywhere for fear that their right-winged bosses or colleagues may disagree and vice-versa. Celebrities in the front row are so far from reality to all of the rest of America. What are they like 0 .000000000001% of the population? They are honored for what they do and nothing else. (unless you’re Bono)
Stagehands near a mic? Yeah.. right….
The people in the balcony wanted Mr. Moore to shut his fat face just as much as the orchestra and the rest of America. It seems, like President Bush, Mr. Moore has only surrounded himself with those who support his ideas and is shocked when faced with protest. Maybe he should attend a booksigning by his opposition. It is truely sad this years Oscar’s will only be remembered by Michael Moore’s vagrant crys and not for the cinema industry it is intended to honor.
I’m from one of those unfortunate countries that are USA’s “Allies” in this war. We didn’t have any say in it either, but I’m not taking it lying down and neither is 58 percent of the population. I’ll do my damndest to have my own PM and his cabinet dragged in front of the war crimes tribunal in the Haag.
Yes Saddam is evil, but think about it. After the Osama Manhunt in Afghanistan, had anyone even heard about the nefarious Saddam? Not really, no. Yes, he went on killing Kurds, opressing everybody and had summary executions, but in his own Saddam way, he was merely minding his own buissness. He is a very bad person to be sure, but an immediate threat to the USA, hardly.
But as is so often the case, politicians need to keep the momentum going, and since Bush didn’t find Osama, he went for the next best thing: Saddam Hussein. And bush is busy. Ohhhhh so busy. This war couldn’t wait a year, a month or a week. He HAD to start it as soon as possible to shore up support for it and so he started it at the earliest possible time and we went along with him.
USA through the last century was a great proponent of civil liberties and the dismantling of colonies. The European powers were dead against. Now it seems to be the other way around.
USA has always been a Giant, economically, military and to an extent in new ideas. When USA had to be the military Giant, it used to be a most cautious Giant who looked down at it’s feet and took small steps so as to not trample the people this gentle giant was trying to help. Then something happened and what it is, I don’t know.
The Giant suddenly stopped looking at it’s feet, gazed at the horizons instead of the people they used to help and started saying words like: Freedom, Democracy, God and Prosperity in every sentence. It wore great, big Jack Boots and started trampling little defenceless nations all over. The Giant now has it’s eyes fixed on the horizon, and it hasn’t looked at it’s feet for nearly 55 years.
Michael Moore is a voice of dissent in a bland, propagandistic, CNN cowered mass media. I suggest that CNN rename themselves to Der St
Martin (from Denmark):
Great post. I appreciate how you don’t “demonize” the US, but rather characterize them as a formerly “friendly giant” who now inadvertently tramples other people in the world.
Hey Mike - why you didn’t bawl Blair? We got neo-conservatives in the UK too you know. Poor blighter can’t get even get his ENEMIES to acknowledge him.
Why the rest of you still typing? Richard from Toronto settled this on the 24th…
..and to Leicht from Japan… no use crying over spilled milk. That’s how history played out. If it had not, the world would not have evolved to the state it’s in now and we could all spend our time at more valuable efforts rather than argueing on this website…and if Japan had not killed Americans at Pearl Harbor, maybe they would not have killed the YELLOW Japanese in efforts to prevent it from happening again. And to la democracie, those believe all Americans have tunnel vision, know nothing about European culture or history, are not educated or even interested in it, do not have European friends and in many cases family, and do not associate and deal with them on a daily bases…. wake the f**k up.. Maybe you should travel to America and soak up a little of it’s culture before you cast stones.
all that the comments on this webpage remind me is that so many americans are so uneducated that you don’t bother learning how to spell correctly, much less think critically about this ridiculous war that our lying president has gotten us into. wake up and stop watching fox news, people. the mainstream media is owned by the same corporations who have bought our president and the congress. what did michael moore say that upset you so much? something that upsets you because you don’t want to think that he may be speaking the truth…and that bill o’reilly may not be????
Many years ago on the playground i learned the dynamics of human interaction. Not much more knowledge surpasses those experiences.
As Mike lives and communicates some listen some don’t. Some love and some shout.
Should there not be laws to protect the voices of dissent, domestic or foreign? For one day we all may profit from the voices and perceptions of somebody different.
Cause we already know what we think.
for anyone who cares to find out more about president bush’s record since he took office, i found the following website to most interesting:
www.house.gov/appropriations_democrats/caughtonfilm.htm
just a little laundry list, prepared by members of the US house of representatives, about what bush has been saying in the sound bites that many of us so love to quote…and what he’s actually been doing.
The fact is that Moore didn’t like this administration before you adamant dissenters of The first Amendment’s guaranteed right to voice what you think
Brought to the table your unwavering support, which just so happened to be around the time that this war began. Moore doesn’t care about wartime courteousness and blindly follow this administration into oblivion. Benson if you really did fight in a war you sadden me. Do you actually think we should send others to that horrible fate, or disagree with the first amendment that you supposedly worked so hard to defend. I actually supported this war, strongly. Saddam Hussein is an evil dictatorial cocksucker, and yet bush with his staggeringly and consistently idiotic (tax cut=7 bil$, war=7 bil$) and offensive (crusade? Haliburton)
public address and policy making “style” have made me reconsider and change my position on this war we shouldn’t be there, why are we? To protect our country as bush has said from the beginning, or should I say had for now we are liberating Iraqi
The fact is that Moore didn’t like this administration before you adamant dissenters of The first Amendment’s guaranteed right to voice what you think
Brought to the table your unwavering support, which just so happened to be around the time that this war began. Moore doesn’t care about wartime courteousness and blindly follow this administration into oblivion. Benson if you really did fight in a war you sadden me. Do you actually think we should send others to that horrible fate, or disagree with the first amendment that you supposedly worked so hard to defend. I actually supported this war, strongly. Saddam Hussein is an evil dictatorial cocksucker, and yet bush with his staggeringly and consistently idiotic (tax cut=7 bil$, war=7 bil$) and offensive (crusade? Haliburton)
public address and policy making “style” have made me reconsider and change my position on this war we shouldn’t be there, why are we? To protect our country as bush has said from the beginning, or should I say had for now we are liberating Iraqi
The fact is that Moore didn’t like this administration before you adamant dissenters of The first Amendment’s guaranteed right to voice what you think
Brought to the table your unwavering support, which just so happened to be around the time that this war began. Moore doesn’t care about wartime courteousness and blindly follow this administration into oblivion. Benson if you really did fight in a war you sadden me. Do you actually think we should send others to that horrible fate, or disagree with the first amendment that you supposedly worked so hard to defend. I actually supported this war, strongly. Saddam Hussein is an evil dictatorial cocksucker, and yet bush with his staggeringly and consistently idiotic (tax cut=7 bil$, war=7 bil$) and offensive (crusade? Haliburton)
public address and policy making “style” have made me reconsider and change my position on this war we shouldn’t be there, why are we? To protect our country as bush has said from the beginning, or should I say had for now we are liberating Iraqi
I still say “Who is Michael Moore?” -AND “Who Cares?” I don’t! Thanks,Red! Great site! (Hi James,
Thought you might find this link interesting.
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
Posted by: Red on 3.29.03)
Down with ficticious Hollywood! Down with ficticious filmakers who call themselves great because they can operate a camcorder! Guess what all you bleeding heart protesters - We Are At War! Baghdad is going DOWN! We are finishing what should have been finished 12 years ago! All liberal unAmericans - go to California and jump up and down - shift the fault and create your own country! Good-bye!!!
This just in: Iraq is no longer the enemy of the free world!
In fact, we were never at war with Iraq at all!
All along, we’ve been fighting Singapore! DOWN with Singapore!
(apologies to those of you who haven’t read 1984… I just felt I needed to give SOME sort of response to Catherine Jacocks, after her last message)
Great reporting….thank you for speaking what is and not what you have been told to print. We have turned off the news…but continue to speak out for peace.
David Bowie once sang,
Michael Moore…calling Michael Moore…hey, where are you, Mike? Have you taken a peep at all this egotistical chat-room mentality mind refuse that the simple, humble and courageously outspoken averrals you boldly voiced at the self-promoting oscars has spawned, (never liked to see already over-celebrated congratulating each other over and over again culminating in Oscar Night), on this could-be educational site? Personally, I’d love to hear what you think about all this talk-talk because not only did you say what too few with the spotlight on them dare not say, but you wer actually able to relegate your own oscar to it’s proper perspectual place! Now that’s something special, man! So, if you have a free moment and deem it worthwhile, (although having reviewed these spoutings again I could understand your wanting to keep at cyberarm’s length from them), let’s hear what you think of us, whether affording us the forum through, inthesetimes.com became, in actuality, what you thought it might…That would interest me a great deal. You must understand, as a celebrity, your every move and word is heeded…negatively or positively. On the other hand, because we who posted our thoughts herein are mostly ignored by one another when what’s said seems too thought-provoking or abstruse-maybe you could give us some other incisive insights for the success-worshippers to gnaw upon. Hope you at least think about it.
Drew (from Belfast):
Another fantastic post from our European friends… You are both eloquent and persuasive. Thanks for making a contribution that aides understanding, rather than simply fanning adversarial flames.
You are hereby awarded a complimentary tour of my humble city, should you ever be in Canada.
i’m very glad about the speech of mm, because I couldn’t believe, that the majority of the americans agree to this war.
thus “old europe” does not have the usa, but only bush and his ass-kisser against itself ...
I agree entirely with Mr. Moore. Bush is going to war for ficticious reasons, why would you bomb someone to bring them peace? I agree with you Micheal, and i stand with you and say “SHAME ON YOU MR.BUSH, SHAME ON YOU!”
I totally agree with Michael Moore and think his comments were not only ballsy, but absolutely true.
Thank God for people like you,
Michael Moore.
I am so grateful that Michael Moore had
the courage to say at the oscars what so many wanted to.What Bush and his administration are doing is wrong no matter how you look at it.
There is no use in trying to dismiss Michael
as being an idiot looking for his fifteen minutes of fame,,his work is clear proof of his intelligence, (hence the reason he won an oscar).Thankyou Mr.Moore for opening peoples eyes.
“I don’t support the War or Bush but I do support the troops”- I’m seeing a lot of that here. Wake up folks-I was G.I. once. I recall the Uniformed Code Of Military Justice. Certainly not the Constitution and Bill Of Rights but-you might not know that, namely, as an individual soldier, you have the DUTY to disobey any orders that clearly clash with your conscience or ignore essential human rights. Otherwise, and this should come as no surprise to ANY Real American- YOU, as an individual become the equivalent of all those Nazis who fell back on the excuse that, “Ve vere yust following orrrrders”. No, I DON’T wish for youngsters who’ve been deluded, idoctrinated, breifed and trained to KILL or be KILLED by people their commanders tell them are the ENEMY to know the horrors of War…But they have the moral obligation to refuse to fight when, as in the case of this mass-murder of Iraquis, they’ve been placed in harm’s way, to KILL or to be KILLED by strangers, obviously and clearly against the intent of INTERNATIONAL LAW and the TEN COMMANDMENTS just ‘cause Dubbya says so. They knew what they were getting into, at least as far as risking death and committing manslaughter. Let’s not be naive here. If the TROOPS did not follow orders, there would be no WAR. They weren’t drafted like I was long ago. They clearly VOLUNTEERED! They each made an individual choice to barter some personal freedoms for whatever gain they were promised. They got yet another BUSH WAR. Their Volunteerism makes them feel obligated, so, because of this they think they MUST OBEY EVERY order commanded . How does this circular thinking make anything right or they more valuable than any other human beings? After all, who pays their commanders and their Chief? Who is the Constitutionally TRUE government of the U.S. if not we the people, the taxpayers? It is OUR will that must be held SACRED but is being ignored! Whatever befalls them, they MUST take responsibility for ther actions AND in-actions. After all, their supreme C.I.F. already decided that people much younger than they should be held culpable for civilian crimes. To him, 14 year olds are adults, (even though he’ll never be one), and must face the executioner if convicted. It’s not that might makes right but that Wealth thinks it’s absolved of any responsibilities.
Found your site through the michaelmoore website. As I did not see the Academy Awards on TV here, I found the above article most interesting and gave me an excellent idea of Michael Moore said. The peace movement here is very much against the war in Iraq, particularly as the Prime Minister of Australia, John Howard has sent troops to Iraq without the consent of the Australian people. I hope to see more interesting article on your site in the future. I do recommend that every free thinking person reads Michael Moore’s book “Stupid White Men”.
It’s great to read some of your comments folks, it’s proof of what we have been feeling all along. (Pro MM people aside, that is.)
I and others here cannot believe the level of stupidity that your country is willing to accept in your leaders, voters and media.
In this country, Anti-American sentiment is growing. We have a misunderstanding: We tolerate Americans, but we don’t like them very much. You can thank your state run media for that.
Well, along comes Michael Moore and we understand that the bullshit we are fed by your media is starting to taste like… bullshit. We need more Americans like Michael Moore, we need more Australians like Michael Moore.
Shame on you Mr Bush? Shame on you America.
Open your eyes America. Understand that you are the bad guys and that only YOU can change the way the world sees you, and they see you via your plastic news readers and your spastic president.
Get off your arses and do something about it, for the sake of the human race. If you want to sit there and be lied to, then you deserve your monkey president. We are going to make sure that Howard (he’s our prime minister, stupid) leaves office in discrace, have the balls to do the same thing. It’s your future and also, unfortunately, ours. But it’s in your hands.
God bless Austmerica.
I’m in the city of Perth in beautiful Australia!
I have never been quite so shocked or disgusted in all my life. All of these american ‘patrons’ who are too ignorant or gullible to see the truth in Michaels research. Michael didn’t invent these things - each of his reports are based on facts and a lot of hard work. Michael is a better man than any of you just for the sheer fact that he’s let go of his fear factor and is REALLY trying to help his fellow americans by opening their eyes to the mass monopoly on media which is just another form of censure. So really i can’t blame those people who are so dull witted as to write negative remarks here, because it’s the government that you are hailing that has censored and controlled you all your life. We are each of us victims of our government all across the world in some form or another - it’s just that yours is as bad as any eastern country ruled by dictators… Your country will never stand united as long as your presidents elect themselves into government and try to take over the world, all in pursuit of oil and glory. The ignorance in USA is so widespread that i find it hard to fathom you will ever find true happiness, peace and equality (for all your races), but if you continue to pump out the true GEMS like Michael you have a better chance - because one day you won’t be able to ignore what is right in front of you.
Michael, here in perth my friends and colleagues support and respect you. We hope you continue in your pledge to speak out for the real people and if you ever wish to come to Australia to dig out some truths on our government we will welcome you with open arms!
Best of luck to you and your family.
FYI:
“Clinton’s advisors met nearly weekly on how to stop bin Laden ...
I didn’t detect that kind of focus from the Bush adminsitration.”
—Two Star General Donald Kerrick
“I don’t believe any longer that it’s a matter of connecting the dots.
I think they had a veritable blueprint and we want to know why they didn’t act on it.”
—Senator Arlen Specter (R-pa)
“Of course Bush knew about the impending attacks on America . He did nothing to warn the American people, because he needed this war on terrorism. His daddy had Saddam and he needed Osama. His presidency was going nowhere. He wasn’t elected by the American people, but placed in the Oval Office by the conservative Supreme Court; the economy was sliding into the usual Republican pits and he needed something to hang his presidency on. This guy is a joke. His silence was sleazy and contemptible.”
—Lt.Colonel Steve Butler , Colonel’s Letter
“The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him.”
pResident George W. Bush, September 13, 2001
“I don’t know where he is. I have no idea and I really don’t care. It’s not that important. It’s not our priority.”
pResident George W. Bush, March 13, 2002
Dow Jones Since Inauguration:
Down 32.5%
Unemployment Since Inauguration:
Up 36%
Budget Since Inauguration:
281B surplus now 157B deficit
And a loss of 2 million jobs.
Yeah, this “war” is such a priority.
In 1995 Michael Moore put out the movie; ‘Canadian Bacon’. Alan Alda plays a US president who tries to find an enemy after the cold war. When the Russians admit they lost and the US won, his administration desparately searches for a threat. When international terrorism is brought up, the president scoffs and jokingly suggests Canada as the new enemy. This movie eerily predicts the future and is the most realistic film Moore has ever done even though it is his only ‘fictious’ work. It stars; John Candy, Rhea Perlman, Rip Torn, Steven Wright and GD Spradlin as the stupid white man.
When the Bush administration took over the country in 2001, they immediately started searching for an enemy. There was the incident with China and Taiwan and the downed plane. Then there was the murder of the Japanese tourists off the coast of Hawaii. The navy commander who booked the submarine tour that allowed civilians to steer it, was given a dishonorable discharge, because of his comments about some marines who raped an underaged japanese girl. He said the marines;‘should have gotten a hooker’, and the Japanese gov’t pressured the US to fire his ass. This incident was his revenge against the ‘Japs’. The sub in question surfaced directly under a Japanese fishing boat and then everyone on the sub watched as these tourists drowned. They claimed that the three foot waves were too high to attempt a rescue. Meanwhile, Bush spent 90% of his time as president on vacation, hanging out at his solar powered ranch with reclaimed water. Could it be that Bush is really a radical liberal hippiecrit who makes money off of selfish lazy americans who love being rich arrogant slobs. The CIA refers to incidents like 9-11 as blowback; an enemy response to American repression around the globe. We now know that the adminstration let 9-11 happen so they would have an excuse to make money off of war. The CIA trained and funded ‘terrorists’ were just puppets in an oil grab by the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia and rich people around the world.
Wayne,
We’re starting to do some things here with the peace movements, etc. Public Access TV is one of the best ways to get the word out here and it’s been, so far, completely unregulated.
One weird and back-firing move done in the name of $$$ was the way the major networks haven’t been covering the war and have opted to show their scheduled programs for dollar’s sake. This takes away from the media showing only flag-waving, white-bread America cheering on as Iraqi children are given care packages, when in truth, most of us here are against this war.
When Fox News covers it, those with any sense know it’s like the Ministry of Propaganda making press releases.
At first, no one listed to the Vietnam protests, but they did turn the country’s opinion, and we hope, these will too.
The KGB, I mean, Homeland Security bill is doing more to work against these movement than it is to “protect” Americans from terrorism.
Thank you for your support. I’ve always been fascinated with Australia since my late brother spoke of moving over there to be a sheep farmer back in 1971. Wish he had been able to.
Dom from Long Island,
YES! Yes! Yes! You’re absolutely right. This war is against the constitution. Here, your statement is backed up:
1. I will remain loyal to my sworn pledge to uphold the U.S. Constitution, no matter what. If I consider a civilian or military order or operation to be contradictory to the Constitution, I will not follow the order and will do whatever is in my power to stop the unconstitutional operation.
This mind-set is represented by such military leaders as (to name just a few):
Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty.
General Frederick Woerner—commander in Panama and replaced by Bush senior when he wouldn’t obey an illegal military order to attack Panama.
Admiral William Crowe—Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and replaced by Bush senior when he wouldn’t obey an illegal military order to attack Panama.
the six U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff in the time frame: 5/25/02 (before their arms were twisted by Powell and Bush to fall into line).
Army Vice Chief of Staff Gen. John Keane.
War Is A Racket, by General Smedley Butler, USMC, 1933.
————————————————————
What’s happening now is this mindset:
2. I will do whatever my civilian and military commanders tell me to do, without reflection on whether or not what they are ordering is permitted by the Constitution (since I want to get ahead in the military). This mind-set is represented by such people as:
Colin Powell, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during Bush senior’s presidency (took over when Admiral William Crowe wouldn’t agree to Bush senior’s illegal invasion of Panama).
General Norman Schwarzkopf, commander of the Gulf War against Iraq.
General Maxwell Thurman, commander of Operation Just Cause, the military attack on Panama (took over from General Frederick Woerner, when Woerner wouldn’t agree to Bush senior’s illegal invasion of Panama).
General Tommy Franks, current U.S. military commander in Afghanistan (and now murdering poeple in Iraq).
US Air Force General Ralph E. Eberhart, head of the newly established Northern Command.
I’m glad to see someone has reason and common sense.
Neil
As someone who has lived first hand with terrorism and hate all his life, all I can say is that the ONLY thing that matters is peace. Only in peace are the real discoveries made. Only in war are nukes, V2 rocketry, smart bombs and ‘daisy cutters’ invented. where have the smallpox and TB cures of the last 50 years?? Where is all the late great technology?? In the military and the big biopharm corps where it is used to propagate the yoke around the 3rd world. War is our greatest failing - war comes from the inability to interact and compromise. Sanctions bleed the poor and the weak and the unwanted (I.E. Iraqis. Chechens, Somalians, Afghanis, Vietnamese, El Salvadorians (WE REMEBER MR. REAGON, EVEN IF YOU DON’T), Those in the Concentration camps, the innocence that was’nt the US controlled Cuba…....I can forgive misguided terrorists on all sides, but I can’t forgive those who expound their filth as “freedom, Democracy and Justice”. George Bush, in the words of the late, great man, Bill Hicks - “enjoy the lakes of fire F****R”
Michael Moore is important, not only for America, but for the rest of the world, because he speaks out what most of us are thinking. And thus, we see that not all of you guys are the stereotype-hamburger-eating-nutheads that a lot of europeans think you are.
Support MM, support peace, support understanding!
Oh and finally. George W. Claims to be a born again Christian?? Well guess what georgey boy, you are NOT a christian. Now, where do I get this proof? MMM, maybe in the BIBLE? you f*****g moron - thou shalt not kill? turn the other cheek? lovew thine enemy? forgive? do unto to others?? is any of this getting through to you? oh i see, this must be americhristianity - where basically the bits that make you look bad and the bits that you like (homophobia, although thats a pretty long stretch, care for the environment - its there, believe me, i’ve actually READ the thing, peace love and tolerence, respect for life and honesty.) Bush and his cronies are not in any way connected to GOD in whatever his true form is and as a matter of fact opposed to the current american if the BIBLE is to be believed…....
Congratulations on this story. At least there are some media sources in America which tell the truth. I am a great admirer of Michael Moore, and his efforts to regain democracy in the US. I hope that the liberals in America can find a big voice in these demanding times. Keep up the good work.
Before I begin my day today, I will try to once again pound into some thick, brainwashed skulls this one TRUTH: The United States OZ-Ochracy has become a BULLY, ROGUE, PUPPET of Global Corporations for whom they and their psychotic, well-heeled goons, (the secret agencies, law enforcement, CIA, FBI, NSC, ATF, U.S. Marshalls, FEMA, FAA, and others so deep in the shadows no one even knows about them, including the Dubbya gang), are more than gung ho about dancing to their DEATH-SONG for big profits and more power. Multimillionaires working for Multibillionaires sending poor deluded and indoctrinated from their cradle troops and super techno-murderous extermination machines is what this is ALL about. If you believe otherwise, then don’t spew your crap here because your crap is all we are left with having to hear and bear 24/7. Go e-mail your inane Warloving crap to the entire mainstream media so you can puff yourself up knowing you’re on the side that might not ram down your door in the middle of the night and, “dissapear”, you. As for the rest of us who MUST keep on shouting as loudly as possible AGAINST this ongoing PSYCHOSIS…God help us when we get, “disappeared”! But you know what? If we don’t risk being victims of this onslaught of Fascism…Then even the rest of you who thought they were safe on the, “RIGHT”, side will eventually become targets because, well, just because the FASCIST goon squads might not like the way you look.
hEy Michael mOOre
- we want mORE
rocking of the boat!!
If You’re Happy And You Know It Bomb Iraq
by John Robbins
If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq.
If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq.
If we think that someone’s dissed us, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections,
Let’s look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.
It’s pre-emptive non-aggression, bomb Iraq.
To prevent this mass destruction, bomb Iraq.
They’ve got weapons we can’t see,
And that’s all the proof we need,
If they’re not there, they must be there,
Bomb Iraq.
If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
If you think Saddam’s gone mad,
With the weapons that he had,
And he tried to kill your dad,
Bomb Iraq.
If corporate fraud is growin’, bomb Iraq.
If your ties to it are showin’, bomb Iraq.
If your politics are sleazy,
And hiding that ain’t easy,
And your manhood’s getting queasy,
Bomb Iraq.
Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
For our might knows not our borders, bomb Iraq.
Disagree? We’ll call it treason,
Let’s make war not love this season,
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq.
At a time when American popularity is at its nadir across the world, Michael Moore is an absolute credit to your country, a rare bushel of light in this sorry affair. Anyone who has read his book will know he has little time for lying democrats either, he just genuinely has your interests at heart. Surely all the people who have written in support of MM here could combine to create a powerful voice?
Posted by Colin on Apr 3, 2003 at 6:28 AM
I’d like that all the american talking against the war would flood the streets and paralize USA until the bombs stops, if you really aare millions, show it to the world and to your blind governors
we had millions people in Italy demonstrating for peace, since the war began we had 570 different manifestations with millions of people
clever americans unite and fight against evil bombers, and please even when the war will be over, fight for the Iraqui people to have a government of their own, not one of your crazy generals, the united nations will have to settle the matter, when the killing will be over the cowboys in camouflage will have to go back in their death ranches and hopefully never come back
FUCK BUSH, FUCK EVERYBODY WHO SUPPORTS THE KILLING IN IRAQ!!!
GOD WILL LET YOU BURN IN HELL FOR KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE AND ASKING FOR HIS BLESSING WHILE DOING SO!!! ‘God bless america’ is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard!!! GOD BLESS THE PEOPLE WHO OBEY HIS WORDS!!!
I
this war is wrong.
Michael Moore is an idiot and I’d like to see him get sent to Iraq. All of you idiots that are against this war should be sent over. If you think this war is so bad, why don’t you watch the news coverage that shows the happy people in Iraq who are relieved to see that freedom is coming. If I hear one more person say that the war is about oil, I’m gonna scream. You obviously need to go back to kindergarden. I am personally honored to have a president that reads the Bible and prays every night instead of getting blow jobs by his intern. Nobody wants war, but sometimes it’s necessary to bring peace in the end. What you guys don’t realize is that there was already a war going on. We’re just trying to finish it and have peace. The Iraqi people are being treated horribly by Saddam. Bush is just trying to make sure another 9/11 doesn’t happen. Everyone just wants to blame Bush for everything. If he didn’t send our troops over, then another terrorist attack would end up happening here and then you guys would just blame him for that also. You guys just aren’t happy having a president with morals, and you are automatically judging him because you didn’t like his father. GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!! I am ashamed to have you in my country. Our troops are over there fighting so that you can open your big mouths and criticize them. I know, you guys like to say that you are behind the troops, just not the war. What the hell??? No you’re not behind them. They know they are doing a good thing and you’re protesting it. They’re doing it for you, and the rest of America. They are not only fighting for us, but for other people, so that they can be free also. They are all heroes, and it pisses me off that some of them are dying for you guys, and you aren’t even thankful. Shame on you. I don’t consider you Americans. You are traitors, and an embarrassment to our country. Semper Fidelis!!!God Bless America (even the traitors)
How on earth can a democracy speak with its wallets. A democracy is one vote per person. The wallet is however many dollars one has, that many votes one has. You, mark, are an imbecile.
Michael Moore is brilliant, and a loving and caring human being. He deserved his Oscar and he deserved the support of the audience that night, despite the few corporate whores who tried to mar it. They failed.
Moore is my hero.
Thank you for your story! Michael Moore spoke the truth and had the guts to say so in an arena that most of you “namecalling” imbiciles…ooopps…did I strike a nerve with anyone?...don’t have the intelligence to do. Education can be paid for, common sense is priceless! More Moore!!!
to Malea!
Well put dear friend!
God bless you.
Peace
It’s almost funny to see how many ignorant pricks have put their thoughts on this website. Having said that, it’s important for people to be heard, the very point Michael Moore was making. He’s a legend, its important to have people like him who can reach a mass audience, if only to rouse opinions and make us all think. you stink bush.
Arend:
Just curious as to which bible you are referring? Old, new, the living bible, which one?
The reason I ask is simple, seems to me you just pull text that you thinks fits your current rant & then use it out of context to make your point, however ridiculus it may be.
Stop using God as an excuse to abuse the others on this forum. You are starting to resemble a certain madman in the Middle East.
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