I love Michael Moore. It was so refreshing to see his speech and watch his movie. Watching the barbarians invade Iraq has left ill feelings towards the American People. George Bush is the antichrist to a modern civilized world and I am shocked and in awe that the USA public cannot see through the plainly visible veil of hypocricy that he portrays to the world. I wonder if George Bush is afraid of the children of Iraq? My bet is that he is. The USA has accomplished nothing with this war other than perfecting the recipe for a terrorist. Way to go Bush!!
Posted by James Mclaughlin on Apr 3, 2003 at 12:39 PM
Shame on all the people denouncing Mr. Moore. He is up there because he has the guts to help expose our democracy of hypocrisy. This is not about right or left but about the truth. I just feel bad that some my fellow Americans are to dumb to realize or ignorant to believe what is really going on. If our founding fathers would of kissed King Georges(The old king in England for you inbreds) ass the way you all kiss Bush’s there we’d all speak Oxford English. Our country is based on freedom of speech and ideals. You don’t have to like M.M. but he is defending our country. I am a veteran who believes in liberty. Shame on the sheep that won’t let the shepard defend them from the wolves.
Posted by Andrew Munsterman on Apr 3, 2003 at 12:42 PM
Well done, its a pity there are so few in the US like Michael Moore
we stand beside you and object to this war.
The poor suffer again.
Follow the money, follow the oil, follow the men to will make all the dosh on this war.
Posted by dhaughey on Apr 3, 2003 at 1:53 PM
(from ongoin e-mail discussion):
I’ll very BRIEFLY address the UN, but I don’t think the UN is really the
heart of the issue here. It doesn’t make too much sense for me to “waste
air” on this institution when you’ve already expressed that, in your
opinion, it has “outlived its usefulness.”
However… I WILL mention a few things:
Surely you didn’t bring up the issue of the Soviet Union and Russia’s use of
the “veto” without expecting me to counter with the USA’s use of the veto?
The USA leaves all other UN countries in the DUST when it comes to using its
veto! HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS of resolutions have been unilaterally
defeated!
(http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html)
(of course, this won’t bother you if you’ve felt that the UN was not a
meaningful institution in the first place…)
There was a great paper written by Grace Roosevelt on the dawning of the
UN… If you have the time, I would definitely recommend it:
(http://www.globalpolicy.org/resource/unhist/jinx1.htm) Her thesis, in a
nutshell, is that the UN exists as a forum where the ideals of “pacifism”
and “just war theory” can converse with one another(much as the two of US
have been doing!). In her own words:
“Although the two traditions of thought evolved along quite separate paths,
a logical tie unites them. For without an overarching governing body,
international law becomes unenforceable; and without a mandate to develop
and enforce international law, any institution set up to promote peace
remains ineffective. The challenge for the future is thus to realize in
practice the underlying unity of the two ideals. Pacifism and legalism are
complementary rather than contradictory aims; political history teaches that
peace can be achieved only when the rule of force is replaced by the rule of
law.”
If the UN is “debunked,” as you seem to suggest (and many in the world feel
that this present conflict WILL, indeed, emasculate, if not kill it)...then
that is an alarming portent. Again drawing on Roosevelt, “after the demise
of the well-intended League of Nations, World War II followed closely in its
wake.”
(continued)
Posted by Tim on Apr 3, 2003 at 2:22 PM
(continued)
Personally, I don’t believe that your government ever entertained UN
negotiations with a mind to abandoning a military “solution.” UN inspectors
found NOTHING… Maybe they were inept. -OR- Maybe there was nothing to
find… (Despite the ongoing rhetoric that chemical weapons will be used at
any moment, we haven’t actually SEEN any yet, have we? Additionally,
American News coverage claiming that “SCUD” missiles(exceeding the allowable
range for Iraq) were fired on Kuwait has been defunct as either
ill-informed, or downright deceptive:
http://www.fair.org/activism/scuds.html )
RECALL that this entire war is SUPPOSED to be about Saddam’s “Weapons of
Mass Destruction,” right? I mean, that was the position of your President,
anyway, going in… Somewhere along the line, though, the rhetoric has
shifted (several times, actually).. For a while, the talk became
“Elimination of Saddam” (48-hour ultimatum)... Then, it became regime
change(entire Baath Party)... Lately, the only justification has been
“jingoism” invoking words like “operation Iraqi Freedom”... WHAT? I don’t
get it. What does Iraqi freedom have to do with Iraqi weapons of mass
destruction?
So if “the plan” was always regime change, why wasn’t that the proposal to
the UN? I guess it wouldn’t have sounded quite as good if the resolution
had read: “While Iraq poses no immediate threat, we don’t like Saddam
Hussein and wish to bomb his country and remove him by force.”
Let’s call a spade a spade… This war is a PRE-EMPTIVE strike against a
country on the basis of un-founded hearsay that the country may, at some
point in the future, pose a threat.
You have children… When you’re teaching them appropriate “playground
demeanor,” do you tell them: “Now if you see someone who looks sort-of
shifty and bad…and you KNOW that person has a history of violence…Kick
the crap out of them, before they have a chance to hurt you!” (?)
Somehow I doubt it.
As I said, though, I don’t think this is primarily about the UN, anyway…
I’m really more interested in the media angle, since if our discussion is to
be meaningful at all about these things, we need to have access to TRUTH,
and the media is our primary source of information.
Posted by Tim on Apr 3, 2003 at 2:24 PM
Reflecting on Human Nature
I remember back in grade school… Now and then there’d be a rumour of a fight…
Inevitably, at the appointed time, throngs of students would converge at the designated location, and “ring” the combatants with a solid wall of flesh. The wary adversaries in the circle’s centre would walk around looking at each other—not certain if they wanted to follow through with the fight—but knowing that pride was on the line.
At that point, the chorus would start: “Fight!...Fight!...Fight!...Fight!” (I don’t know why, but it never really seemed like anyone in the crowd was campaigning for the fight to NOT happen)
The chanting would swell as the first punches landed…the circle would tighten the moment one combatant ended up on the ground…
In my experience, these fights were resolved in one of two ways. Either:
1) A group of teachers, the police, etc., would intervene, disperse the crowd, and pull the “winner” off of the bloodied student on the ground.
2) One student would beat the other so thoroughly that the “crowd” would begin to feel badly for supporting such violence. The cheering would lose some of its intensity, and a few conscientious students would separate the combatants(to the jeers of a vocal minority).
I’m sure glad those ruthless days are behind us… That as adults, we’ve learned to control our bloodlust…
(Aside: A recent report at a “coalition against the war on Iraq” meeting here in Winnipeg revealed that funding from south-of-the border is going toward “Pro War” rallies: Circles of placard-waving “fans” chanting “Fight…Fight…Fight…”)
Posted by Tim on Apr 3, 2003 at 2:55 PM
I’m sure a lot of those booing Michael have not seen his movies or read any of his books. He is an amazing man who is speaking out against the Captialist Nature of Society. He is intelligent, does his homework and uses his freedom of speech to say more than “MM should be taken out”(posted earlier).
I’m surprised to see how ignorant some of these previous posts have been. I’m also surprised that a lot of people do not know how long Moore has been out there for, working hard to make sure everyone knows what is really going on with the government, corporations, etc. I guess my point it that those who have made their ignorant relpies should read some of Moore’s books or articles and if you’re not a reader, go watch some of his documentaries! Until then, think of something somewhat intelligent to say if you “have” to bash Moore.
Posted by Lili Di on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:01 PM
So Tim
Let’s just, for a moment take the war out of this discussion.
Do you think when Saddam gassed the Kurds & then bulldozed their towns as if they never existed that the UN should have stepped in & called for his immediate removal?
Do you believe that Saddam should be left alone to carry on his reign of terror?
Since 1979 he has been responsible for over 2 million deaths. HORRIBLE, TORTUROUS DEATHS. Is that okay with you? Are you one of those “if it doesn’t affect me then why should I care” people?
I have heard & read lots on why some people are against this war but I haven’t heard anyone offering any solutions other than to ramble on about sanctions & freezing, things that obviously have not worked.
Posted by Red on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:03 PM
Just for the record I don’t like this war either but I, like many others, don’t know what else we ( they, you, us) could have done.
If you have some insight I would like to hear it.
Posted by Red on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:07 PM
Malea from California,
A PRESIDENT WITH MORALS??? Are you STUPID??!!!!!!!!!
Bush’s own pastor said this war is wrong, Jimmy Carter, one of the greatest men the last 100 years said this war is wrong, Nelson Mandella, our modern day Martin Luther King, said it’s wrong, the Pope said it’s wrong.
Are you saying these men are WRONG and that Bush is right? Are you that blind and ignorant????
A man who went AWOL, was a crack addict, alcoholic, failed businesses, HE’S A MORAL MAN??
Read up (if you can read) on this man from all sources, and you’ll see his “born again Christianity” is nothing but a farce and just leads the self-righteous, like your pious self into goose-stepping in line. Hitler was a Christian, remember that.
Don’t you know daddy Bush gave Saddam chemical weapons to fight Iran? Don’t you know he has NO TIES to 9-11 because all but one of the hijackers were Saudi’s (but we can’t go after Saudi Arabia—they’ll cut off our oil). Don’t you know why the fighting is so intense is because these troops know the US has no legitimate cause to attack and that’s why so many of our soldiers are being murdered at the hands of that murdered Gen. Tommy Franks, that muderer George Bush and the murdered Donald Rumsfeld. Now, where I come from murder is a sin.
God, save me from the “good people.” Go spew your ignorant remarks on FOX Nazi news.
Posted by neil on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:10 PM
Red,
What are your sources? Let’s see them. Oh, wait, are these the “phanton reports” like the uncle Tom Collin Powell’s, the one’s Blix shot down.
Seems like this war was brought to you by and orchestrated by advertising agencies.
Posted by neil on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:14 PM
“Mr. Moore might consider moving to France!!!!!”
I agree.
He could have a great interview with one Richard Perle getting a tan in his villa in Provence.
Posted by surt on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:16 PM
Gee Neil!
What an angry man you are! Your posts are full of hate towards anyone that disagrees with you.
Seems to me that is the same “mentality” that got us into this war if I choose to believe your take on all this.
Posted by Hmmmm on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:18 PM
Red:
I’m currently a teacher, with two new immigrants (Iraqi Kurds) in one of my classes(They were not allowed to immigrate into the USA).
These young kids, with relatives in Halabja (the town Saddam gassed in 1988—while we were “buddies” with him—using weapons provided by us), have tremendous hope that the current US-led offensive on Iraq will result in the re-establishment of Kurdistan…
They are extremely hopeful that THIS time, when the US promises to support them, they will not AGAIN be left hanging…(as both they and the Shiia population were left hanging back in 1991)
I don’t have the heart to tell them that Rumsfeld has stressed in the past week that Iraq will retain all of its present borders, following the ‘war’. (Since this would crush the hope of their own country… a hope fostered by US ‘half-promises’ in past years)
You ARE right, though… Saddam has done some pretty bad stuff… He dropped a lot of leaflets on the Kurds, telling them to leave their homes, and then he bombed them, killing 3,000 people. Pretty unthinkable, eh?
As far as 2,000,000 dead… Could you give me a breakdown of how many of those 2 million have died as a result of starvation and disease following “Gulf War I” and subsequent sanctions?
Posted by Tim on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:19 PM
People love to say that Michael Moore just had his 15 minutes of fame, and now he’ll be done - they have no idea. He’s already been extremely successful for about 10 years - he made two documentaries prior to Bowling for Columbine that were both big box office successes (esp. for documentaries). He’s done two series’ of tv shows, multiple popular music videos, and his book, “Stupid White Men,” has been #1 on the bestseller list for something like 51 weeks. Think again if you think Moore is leaving soon, morons.
Posted by Troy on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:22 PM
Mr. Moore is delusional, and IN THESE TIMES irresponsible if they report that the booing on Oscar night was from a couple of stagehands. My husband and daughter were seated in the middle of the main floor and reported that it was all around them and it was loud.
Posted by akh on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:27 PM
You guys love him so much…You’ve stopped short of getting on your knees and licking Michael Moore’s balls?
Posted by TomDickandHarry on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:28 PM
“You guys are stupid if you believe this story, that was not stage hands!!! GIVE ME A BREAK, if that was the case then every award would be like that. Only FUCKING FOOLS would believe that, Moore is a fat git ugly and stupid and he was rightfully booed for his boorish and rude rant. shame on Juel for passing this crap, you idiots
Posted by: Stupid liberals on 3.25.03 | 2:50 pm from myass”
I love to see that when people no nothing of what they are talking about, harsh comments and horrendous english is used. People should first try reading informative sources before they comment and then maybe take another English Class, so that they can word themselves better.
I don’t know what exactly happened at the Academy Awards because I wasn’t there. But from this report, it would be believable that this is the truth.
As for all the other comments about the war, the government, etc. there is no use trying to tell the stupid people in this country the truth and the facts. They don’t want to hear it, because they’d rather be watching who won on American Idol.
-Pat Collins
P.S. The people who call other Americans “Anti-American”, are actually being anti-american themselves by denying the opionion and view of the person in question.
All Americans have the constitutional right to express themselves. Read the Bill of Rights and maybe understand it before you talk trash.
Posted by Patrick on Apr 3, 2003 at 3:48 PM
When are you foreigners going to learn? When a dictator/mass murderer is threatening our country, we’re not going to court a bunch of pussies (aka France) just to get permission to defend ourselves. Sorry, but the UN is nothing but a debating club and we’re not going to be hamstrung by nations whose economy relies on the Iraqi oil trade: GERMANY, FRANCE, and RUSSIA. And to all the Canadians that are bitching and moaning about this war, get used to countries doing things without your approval, because no one gives a damn about what you think.
Posted by Sam on Apr 3, 2003 at 4:02 PM
I don’t mean to put you on hold. I was looking forward to our debate as I have read your posts & you seem to be one of the more level headed folks out there.
I will be back tonight around 9:00 pacific time.
Hope to speak with you then.
Peace
Posted by Red on Apr 3, 2003 at 4:14 PM
Forgot to mention the pre. post is for Tim from Winnipeg.
Posted by Red on Apr 3, 2003 at 4:16 PM
Yes, Hmmmmm, I’m full of hate for people who say we, the anti-war people are wrong, full of it, tell us to move to France.
I don’t ususally flame people because I don’t like stooping to the right-wing tactics of the supposedly “good” people.
In my view, if Christ were here, he’d be on our side—the anti-war protestors. We’re trying to do something with our letters to senators, peace marches, etc.
When we have a forum we can talk to each other and have people say we’re “candy-ass liberals who should move to France” it gets a little old. Yes, I hate that.
I haven’t used language like “go lick MM’s balls”, etc. Once in awhile I use the F word.
To me, the greater crime than Bush’s bloody, illegal war is all of you who go along with it. Yes, this blood is on your hands. It’s on your hands. It’s on your hands.
If the truth sounds hateful, then I guess the truth hurts.
We have enough wannabe cookie-cutter “media” people cutting us down without having the so-called “good and righteous” people coming on to our alternative view forum calling us names. Isn’t Conservative radio enough? Isn’t Fox news enough.
I say again, get lost.
Posted by neil on Apr 3, 2003 at 4:26 PM
akh, I don’t believe your story about the Oscars for one minute.
Posted by neil on Apr 3, 2003 at 4:28 PM
Oh, and Hmmmm, the mentality that got us into this war was GREED, which is a sin, by the way.
Posted by neil on Apr 3, 2003 at 4:30 PM
Red: If you like, Tom (from Denver) Spike (from Vancouver) and I are carrying on this conversation via e-mail.
Admittedly, I miss the regular barrage of “...to all the Canadians that are bitching and moaning about this war, get used to countries doing things without your approval, because no one gives a damn about what you think..,” etc.,(and other such insightful arguments), but hey…
I’m off for supper with my neighbour’s family. I look forward to continuing this tonight, if you’re around…
Posted by Tim on Apr 3, 2003 at 4:41 PM
Thanks for this great coverage that so many have chosen to ignore or downplay. I went to Boycott Hollywood’s site to see who is listed. Many of my all time favorite actors, directors, etc. I know have my own list. My list of those people I want to make sure to support! Thanks.
Posted by Patt Riese on Apr 3, 2003 at 5:22 PM
Well when u got ut president giving speeches like that and the bias media (fox news is a complete joke) they are going to have some influence. Ppl need to hear and see the truth!
Posted by Baig on Apr 3, 2003 at 5:26 PM
what a brillant article, atleast someone aint brain washed by US media/govt. we need to see more of this and micheal moore has some brillant facts which are terrifying to the bush lot.
Posted by Raza on Apr 3, 2003 at 5:29 PM
MM is not the most tactful orator, but that’s one of his appeals, he goes straight to the point.
Posted by karine on Apr 3, 2003 at 5:34 PM
To all of you saying “proud to be an american”,“A true american” etc.
What exactly is there to be proud of?
Posted by Martin on Apr 3, 2003 at 5:40 PM
Sam wrote, “When are you foreigners going to learn? ...because no one gives a damn about what you think.’
If that is indeed your attitude which you suggest is also representative of americans, you are infinitely worse than ignorant.
I’m glad a lot of people don’t share your views. If you really want isolation go lock yourself in your room and stay there in front of your idiot box.
Posted by karine on Apr 3, 2003 at 6:05 PM
Some old friends of mine saw and heard you at the Riverside Baptist Church, Mike. They told me that you and the other brilliant speakers who are not fooled by this tyrannical cancer at our helm galvanized them into action and struck deep chords in their souls. The TRUTH does that to people who do not accept the fascist pap that’s spoon-fed them. These are discerning, wise people who know they need be ever vigilant of the powers that be if they hope to maintain their liberties and rights; who understand they must be ever questioning of the accepted fables authoritarian types attempt to shove down their throats. I wish I’d been there. The truth to these people is not NOT, as you know. The truth is awful to those who, despite history’s lessons refuse to believe their leaders are the MONSTERS they insist, (upon penalty of marginalization or incarceration), you are heretofore ordered to believe they are! Some contributors to this site simply REFUSE to question those they hold in such esteem. It is those who I hold in esteem who I question most. As Nietsche said…“It is not the courage of my convinctions but rather the courage to change my convictions”.
Posted by Dom on Apr 3, 2003 at 6:58 PM
Sorry, made another typo…I meant to say that the TRUTH is NOT AWFUL to HONEST people. The TRUTH is AWFUL only to those bind leading the blind who’ll one day find THEMSELVES wishing they had faced the TRUTH. Do they think they’ll get a cushy job or some kind of immunity for braying along with the WARMONGERS? Read, “The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich”, if this is what you believe. You’ll find therein what eventually happend to almost all those who thought they had it made by attempting to out-nazifiying Hitler in order to score bigtime lickspittle points with him. Maybe then YOU will see just HOW AWFUL the TRUTH can be. Instead of parroting verbatim the mainstream media hype…try opening your eyes to what’s going on in the REAL world around you. If you keep your eyes open and your ears tuned long enough…funny, but your nose will be most affected becaue you will, despite your BUSH-colored spectacles…be overwhelmed by the STINK of societal decay all around you.
Posted by Dom on Apr 3, 2003 at 7:15 PM
Poor Melea…thinks sex is a whole lot more evil than devestating a weak country. Thinks every news outlet and magazine she’s grown up to trust just wouldn’t lie to her. Thinks that 9/11 had nothing to do with a complicit governmental roguery of the vilest kind. Thinks her Bush baby didn’t steal the election with the help of his brother Jeb and the five of nine supreme bootlickers. Just what does she base her Polyanna/twisted sister outlook upon? May the, “magic bullet theory”, haunt your private little fudamentalist nightmares!
Posted by Dom on Apr 3, 2003 at 7:26 PM
Karine from Paris: Do you really expect the US or any other country to pay heed to FRANCE in international affairs? You won’t even defend your own country, so we don’t expect you to agree with us when we defend ours. The fact of the matter is that Saddam is rearming in violation of a 12 year old truce and the coalition in Iraq are the only countries that have the brass to do anything about it. So you Swedes, Germans, Belgians, Canadians, Frenchmen, Italians and whoever else can bitch all you want about it, but it doesn’t concern you. Oh, I take that back, it does concern France, Germany, and the other countries who buy oil from Iraq.
Posted by Sam on Apr 3, 2003 at 7:36 PM
Please Mr. Cheney do not insult my intelligence with espousing your profound belief that the Iraqi people would accept our military with open arms, flowers and the sobriquet title of ‘liberators’.
Also stop using the term ‘surgical’ bombing. Using a medical metaphor for destroying people’s lives and livelihoods is nauseating.
A fact: Dick Cheney vehemently tried to get congress to limit the investigation into 9/11.
A fact: Unocal {Union Oil of California} tried to train Taliban members in the occupation of pipe construction.
A fact: One of the key candidates the Bush administration is looking at to replace Saddam is a General who was responsible for gassing the Kurds in ‘88
I want to ask these people who are for this war and believe we are liberating Iraq something.
Were you as indignant over China’s Tianamen Square incident as you were over the Gassing the Kurds?
We renewed China’s most favored trading status after that. Quite appalling.
George
Posted by George on Apr 3, 2003 at 7:39 PM
Rock on Michael Moore!
Posted by Sarah on Apr 3, 2003 at 7:55 PM
NEVER BEFORE HAVE WE LIVED IN TIMES SUCH AS THESE! These are not the days of honest journalism as when a younger Walter Cronkite was active. The current media for whatever reason (FEAR?)cover for an imposter president who is the king of lies!
Posted by Elaine N. Ramey on Apr 3, 2003 at 8:42 PM
I
Posted by linda z on Apr 3, 2003 at 8:54 PM
(continued)
Worse, it appears that at least James Woolsey, a former CIA Director thinks that we are in the midst of World War IV. Apparently, we are not only after Al Qaeda and Iraq, but we should be preparing ourselves to take on Syria and Iran as well as striking fear into the hearts of Mubarek and Saudi princes.
Posted by linda z on Apr 3, 2003 at 8:55 PM
Well, the slaughter’s almost over over there. Wonder how many years before the whole TRUTH about the WHY and WHO can be wrested by THE PEOPLE from the clandestine, redacted, missing, fabricated, destroyed documentation will surface? You Europeans are about to find out the REAL motivations of your governments for you too have been duped. Governments don’t rule anymore, anyone who has half a brain can see what rules THE NEW WORLD ORDER. The United States government is just the Hit man for the OZes behind the veils of darkness. Soon all the rest of your governments, as proxy frontmen for the OZes, will be shoving each other for a spot at the bloody trough that was Iraq. More war is coming, and coming, and coming. What will we all do when it becomes obvious that every nation was after, “a peice of the action”? Why, right now, in sumptuously appointed drawing rooms of palaces the hidden ones are carving out the peices of Iraq, their mouths a-salivatin’ and their fingers a-tremble with anticipation for the next Iraq-ocity. You and me here fightin’ one another with bitter, divisive words are merely a humorous diverson for such as these. Have you ever watched as Mike Moore and his crew would attempt to get to the bottom of some odious, hidden machination of some of these Global Conglomerates on his, “The Awful Truth”, presentations? The best he was ever able to expose was the reality of guilt by continual denial and secrecy. If only he had subpoena powers to make those he attempted to expose actually reveal, in a court of law, (if there are any honest ones remaining), who and what they were really all about behind the P.R. and disinformation! But then, I’d bet he too would become just another Oswald-ed, easily vilified by revisionist historians scapegoat. Better he should go on just humbly and politely busting balls. That in itself confirmed so much I had to live with almost alone for so long. Thanks for opening some eyes, Mike. You do not labor in vain, good sir, for the day WILL dawn when what is and was only an ideal is finally created by, as Abe Lincoln said, “The better Angels in Man”.
Posted by Dom on Apr 3, 2003 at 9:24 PM
Dom:
I’m interested in what you have to say on this site, but I find your massive blocks of text nearly impossible to read…
Would you mind trying to separate some of your thoughts into paragraphs? (sorry…that’s the teacher in me talking)
Posted by Tim on Apr 3, 2003 at 9:36 PM
Dom from Strong Island,
It is obvious that you are much better at insulting people who don’t share your views than you are at presenting a fact-based argument.
It is also readily apparent that you hate the country that you are living in. Why don’t you just go live somewhere else? They also drive on the right side of the road in France. If you aren’t willing to do that, then do the right thing and VOTE next time.
Don’t be such a jerk to the other people on this site who don’t share your ignorant bile. Don’t be a punk.
Posted by American Citizen on Apr 3, 2003 at 9:43 PM
I watched the Oscars and it was far more than a few stage hands booing. Typical of a liberal rag to distort the truth. I believe that Michael Moore hates white American men because he is such a poor excuse for a man himself. No doubt in my mind that he has a little penis and is impotent, this brings out alot of anger in him. He is so worried about poor people, perhaps he should live on 50g a year and give the rest of his money away, then he can lecture the rest of us. Also as far as the war goes, I say bombs away!
Posted by cindy calderwood on Apr 3, 2003 at 9:59 PM
Hi Tim:
First of all let me stress that I don’t believe sanctions work & for the very reason you stated. Only the poor get poorer & the rich continue to strive.
And secondly, please don’t count on Mr. Rumsfield’s plan for post war Iraq. I have a feeling that in the end Colin Powell’s plan for a U.N. backed rebuilding will prevail.
As for your immigrant students… I feel badly that the innocent always suffer because of the bad but I have to tell you that I do look at people differently since 9/11. Not that I would ever be rude but I do understand that feeling of the unknown, that uncertainty, that questioning of everyone that is different. I can’t imagine being in charge of the safety of 280,000,000 people & while I know that it doesn’t seem fair I appreciate that my gov’t is working hard to screen applicants seeking refuge in my country & if a few innocents get turned down, oh well! There is always Canada.
A little personal info. I am an American living in BC, Canada, with my Canadian husband & appreciate hearing your point of view. The e-mail idea is a good one.
Posted by Red on Apr 3, 2003 at 10:03 PM
Michael Moore should be applauded for what he did! And I hope that anyone reading this from a foreign country realizes that not all Americans are stupid and are actually buying the “fact” that Bush is our “President”. Both Bushes have made this country the laughing stock of the world. And France, I apologize for the ignorance of the few Americans who are bad mouthing you.
MICHAEL MOORE FOR PRESIDENT!!!
Posted by Shannon on Apr 3, 2003 at 10:37 PM
WRITTEN 98 YEARS AGO
“The loud little handful - as usual - will shout for war. The pulpit will - warily and cautiously object - at first: the great, big, dull bulk of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes and try to make out why there should be a war, and will say earnestly and indignantly, “It is unjust and dishonorable and there is no necessity for it.” Then the handful will shout louder. A few fair men on the other side will argue and reason against the war with speech and pen, and at first will have a hearing and be applauded: but it will not last long: those others will outshout them, and presently the anti-war audiences will thin out and lose popularity. Before long you will see this curious thing: the speakers stoned from the platform, and free speach strangled by hordes of furious men who in their secret hearts are still at one with the stoned speakers - as earlier - but do not dare to say so. And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth: and presently such mouths will cease to open. Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.”
-Mark Twain, from “The Mysterious Stranger”, c. 1905
Posted by rachel on Apr 3, 2003 at 10:48 PM
I am Canadian. Coming from a country where our leaders have not thrown us into a war that the majority of it’s citizens do not want and the U.N does not comply with, I feel sympathy for any country where there governments spark fear and prevent free speechon such a mass scale as with the U.S. It’s the very defintion of tyranny. A tyrant meaning someone who uses power in a harsh and oppressive way. Jean Chretien and his crew are getting some guff up here and money hungry pundits are huffing but for the most part our voices are being heard. Huffing and puffing about ” harming U.S ties” by a minority doesn’t turn OUR government around (and I hope to God it won’t). MAJORITY rules and I hope to GOD that that same mentality will eventually come into practice for your country soon.
Posted by g. bucci on Apr 3, 2003 at 10:53 PM
Like many others that have comented, Im a vet too. Mr. Moore represents the people I served, the hard working average
American. Our government no longer represents them and neither does the main streem media. Mike has gained my respect for having the balls to stand up and give a voice to the Americans who are no longer heard.
Jasen
Posted by Jasen Richards on Apr 3, 2003 at 11:17 PM
He’s one of the only brave enough to speak his mind (the truth), what ever happenend to free speech, whenever someone says anything negative about bush, it’s as if a crime, this is not diplomacy
Posted by reyz on Apr 4, 2003 at 12:00 AM
I am happy to see that not all (or perhaps not even most?) Americans are moronic warfanatics, who are trying to manipulate the rest of the world. Still I am soooooooo glad I do not live in America. You poor people!
Posted by nick on Apr 4, 2003 at 12:22 AM
Red:
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
(join me, Tom(Denver) and Spike(Vancouver) for a name-calling free chat…)
Posted by Tim on Apr 4, 2003 at 12:59 AM
To all those who feel they need to stand behind the “president” of the USA here is an exact quote of what he said about war when asked;
“I’ve been to war. I’ve raised twins. If I had a choice, I’d rather go to war.” -George W Bush, Jan 7/2002
Isn’t that funny? He obviously thought so. Is this the man that should be sending people to die? I would say not. But I mean war is fun for Bush, he knows he isn’t going to die.
If you can still stand behind this ignorant idiot you are definately brainwashed by the good ‘ol boys in Washington.
Posted by Laura on Apr 4, 2003 at 2:55 AM
Mr Moore is a messenger. He comes from a place the human race is headed toward and will eventually reach. This place resides at the core of every human soul. This place has no form, no judgement, no hate, no need for violence or war and no self hatered. This place has no room for any of that. Every soul is but one piece but is part of the whole. This place can be seen in the eyes of a child, it can be heard when our airborn friends sing to us, and can be felt in a hug a smile or the beauty of the cosmos. Its magic surrounds us. It has no god because we are all part of this god. This mysterious force is not really that mysterious. Love, Light and Forgiveness are far more powerfull then war, hate and revenge. Mr Moore is one of the messengers to remind us of this. It’s in you. It’s in me. The world seems to be waking up. I’m glad that so many see and feel the changes. Why are so many shaken by his simple message? He is proof that love and light are more powefull then war and hate. If you look hard enough you can see the light within him. Its the same light that is us all. It’s always in the simple things that bring out the greatness. A smile, a hug, a listen can move mountains. War and hate create more war and more hate. I feel it’s time to get off the merrygoround. Always rememmber, if you look up and smile at the universe, the universe is always smiling back at ya. I like that. When you let go of your fears, your fears let go of you.
Posted by Crabe Crobe on Apr 4, 2003 at 3:18 AM
>>When are you foreigners going to learn? When a dictator/mass murderer is threatening our country, we’re not going to court a bunch of pussies (aka France) just to get permission to defend ourselves. Sorry, but the UN is nothing but a debating club and we’re not going to be hamstrung by nations whose economy relies on the Iraqi oil trade: GERMANY, FRANCE, and RUSSIA. And to all the Canadians that are bitching and moaning about this war, get used to countries doing things without your approval, because no one gives a damn about what you think.<<
And this is EXACTLY why 9/11 happened. Nobody has started lobbing bombs at Americans in Europe yet, but keep it up and you’ll loose the last vestiges of support here as well. As insane as the Russians may be, you can at least predict their actions. A new PETO (Pan European Treaty Organisation) sounds better and better by the day.
Martin Hansen.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 4, 2003 at 3:34 AM
Hi…
I think you US guys are a pretty scary bunch of trigger-happy and ultra-patriotic people… Many of you anyway, but I’m glad to say that more and more of you are opening your eyes… Peace!
Posted by Pelle on Apr 4, 2003 at 3:37 AM
Michael Moore is great! He’s a brilliant man, and I’m very glad, that there are still people like him on this planet. No matter how much power, money and technology we have, it’s people like him who rescue humans like us from killing each other.
His speech at the Oscar celebrations was true and his open letter to the white house is amazing.
Thanks Mr.Moore!
Posted by Eva on Apr 4, 2003 at 3:39 AM
Sure MM is an important guy in respect to a broader discussion on what is going wrong with the US. It even seems to me, that MM is more important to the rest of the world, than to the US, since he is the one with the loudest voice. I personally like to hear this
Posted by Marco on Apr 4, 2003 at 4:52 AM
I believe that most Americans pretty much accept what the government says as true and right. This country is the greatest in the world because of the freedoms and rights it guarentees EVERY citizen. No one has the right to take away your our freedom. If you read the Patriot Act (Available on Internet or at public library) which was passed right after 9-11, you see the direct violations to the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Illegal tribunals, searches and seizures with no warrant, phone tapping and taping of attorney/client conversations are all included in this act. Bush, Clinton and all their cronies are the same. The make the laws and fight the wars for corporate America which truly runs our government now. I fought in Dessert Storm and always tried to believe that the government was right and good. The reality is that there’s a lot of criminality in govt. and the media does not report it. Our government is becoming Socialism, run by corporations. Things are getting worse under our noses. Violence, the economy, environmental degradation are all out of control. This capitalist-corporate mess can’t continue like this forever. The machine is broken and we need to fix it. Our forefathers rebelled under far lesser oppression.
Posted by Jason on Apr 4, 2003 at 6:26 AM
It’s pleasing to see that all Americans aren’t as CNN describes them as real Patriots, and that many of you can see your Goverment for what it is. Bush is an unbelievably dumd yet powerful fascist dictator that has taken control of your country and ignores the wishes of you Americans. As some mildly important American said, ‘There was never a good War or a Bad Peace.’ The time has come for Americans when u cant remove your president through votes to remove him through force, storm the White House!
Posted by Sean O Riordain on Apr 4, 2003 at 6:33 AM
thank-you Mr. Moore,
PEACE
Posted by S. Djurakov on Apr 4, 2003 at 6:59 AM
Sean from Ireland: Hussein is the bad guy here, not Bush. Take a minute to think about how stupid you sound when you waste all your breath calling Bush a dictator. And the majority of Americans support this war, despite what that pathological liar Moore says. Just look at the polls, you stupid mick.
Posted by Sam on Apr 4, 2003 at 8:45 AM
what a joke!
Posted by Steve Smith on Apr 4, 2003 at 9:31 AM
It’s time for you pricks to come up with a new catch-phrase. If I hear someone say “illegal war” one more time I’m going to sling a rod! There is no such thing as “international law.” Law is a codified rule usually defining prohibited (sometimes proscribed) activity, the violation of which subjects the violator to punishment. internationally there are only treaties. Or in the case of Iraq, a truce, which Hussein has broken. And that is why we’re laying waste to his country right now. And I invite all you European and Canadian pacifists to try to stop us. Bombs away!!
Posted by An American lawyer on Apr 4, 2003 at 10:00 AM
People who believe Moore’s BS are the same people who believed Jesse Jackson when he claimed the CIA introduced crack and AIDS to blacks so we could keep them down.
Posted by Moore sucks on Apr 4, 2003 at 10:03 AM
“No blood for oil!” What a stupid appeal. Anyone who says that is an uninformed idiot. Do you really think anything could be so simple as the US and UK invading Iraq for oil? Anyone who has done their research knows that nearly every oil field, producing or not, is held by the French, the Russians, and the Chinese. In fact, French oil companies have been furiously signing multi-billion dollar lease agreements with Iraq over the last two months. Who
Posted by Open your eyes on Apr 4, 2003 at 10:09 AM
“bombs away” (????!)
...from an “american lawyer” (shock)
....brilliant…
enjoy your “freedom fries” asshole
Posted by S. Djurakov on Apr 4, 2003 at 10:27 AM
Five surgeons are discussing who makes the
best patients to operate on. The first surgeon
says, “I like to see accountants on my
operating table, because when you open
them up, everything inside is numbered.”
The second responds, “Yeah, but you
should try electricians. Everything inside
them is color-coded.”
The third surgeon says, “No, I really think
librarians are the best; everything inside
them is in alphabetical order.”
The fourth surgeon chimes in: “You know,
I like construction workers. They always
understand when you have a few parts left
over at the end and when the job takes
longer than you said it would.”
But the fifth surgeon shuts them all up
when he observes: “The French are the
easiest to operate on. There’s no guts, no
heart, no balls and no spine. Plus the
head and ass are interchangeable.
Posted by mark on Apr 4, 2003 at 10:59 AM
Majority rules in Canada???? We are talking about the same country where one province (Quebec)carries 40% of the vote.
Here on the west coast of Canada we already know who has won the election before the polls are closed & our votes are tallied.
Some would even question why we even bother to vote. Democracy in Canada??? I don’t think so.
Posted by Red on Apr 4, 2003 at 11:14 AM
Mr. Bleifuss,
Thanks for the insight into Moore’s speech.
I am curious about the controversy surrounding his book (Stupid White Men) and the Bowling for Columbine- what about all the inaccuracies in the movie and book?
If true, shouldn’t he address it?
Posted by Brad Beeuwsaert on Apr 4, 2003 at 11:34 AM
>>It’s time for you pricks to come up with a new catch-phrase. If I hear someone say “illegal war” one more time I’m going to sling a rod! There is no such thing as “international law.” Law is a codified rule usually defining prohibited (sometimes proscribed) activity, the violation of which subjects the violator to punishment. internationally there are only treaties. Or in the case of Iraq, a truce, which Hussein has broken. And that is why we’re laying waste to his country right now. And I invite all you European and Canadian pacifists to try to stop us. Bombs away!!<<
So by your definition, the Nazi’s who were purely prosecuted for waging agression warfare were wrongly convicted???????????
Besides, why would we want to stop you? USA is once again making an entire population hate them with a vengeance. The power vacuum will need to be filled in Iraq after Saddam, and for some odd reason I believe that this vacuum will be filled by Fundamentalists and not Coca Cola, Burgers and Curly Fries. Then you’ll have to drop some more bombs, or wave civil liberties in Iraq, but hey..it’s all in the name of peace….
“What would be wrong with waiting for the UN”. That is what people really wanna know. We ALL loathe Saddam except the Palestinians, (Who hate you even more than the Iraqis), but how big a threat was he really? I mean really, really like in handing over chemical weapons to Osama. CIA didn’t think he was a threat, MI6 didn’t think he was a threat, neither did Russia or any other intelligence for that matter. Not even the Israelis were afraid of him, but Bush needed a boogey man and that just sealed his fate.
Martin Hansen.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 4, 2003 at 11:38 AM
I support Mike. I differ on a few points and have different interpretations, however his book and film were extremely well produced. Oil may well be a reason that the United States administration (note, I did not write Americans) is interested in taking great control of Iraq; but what origionally occured to me was that Iraq is a country. So? So it has fixed buildings and troops, and leaders who can be captured with great glory. It (the administration) did not succeed in capturing Osama, so it went after Iraq, in order to show the American public that they were being protected from danger. Never mind that most of the terrorists were Saudi Arabian. Americans would not last as an occupying force in Saudi Arabia, the population would not stand for it, so going closer to the source of the problem would not work. Also, consider the reasons that (quote from a redneck) they wanna kill us all. Being Canadian, I get along fairly well with Americans, even a couple that support the war, but much of the world is extremely uncomfortable with the Imperialism of America, myself included. Having been to the Middle East for several months and living with them, I can say that I would sooner be lost in Aleppo Syria in a park at midnight, than a block away from a NYC, or even Toronto, police station. Anyway, I hope someone else can comment further on the cause of the tension between America and the world. And please do so intelligently. I’ve seen far to many ill written and unreasonable statements, if you support the war and the man living in the White House, please explain why, using sentences based on sound knowledge, so that through intelligent discussion so sense can be made amidst the shit that has been spewed forth by the minority, I hope, of Americans who are so mentally repressed that they cannot competently express themselves.
ALAN
Posted by Le Canadien on Apr 4, 2003 at 12:36 PM
This was an excellent story, and literally the first time I’d heard about the stagehands misrepresenting audience reaction. I guess it’s an apt metaphor for the media right now, a handful of people with clout fixing public perception.
Posted by Adam Reger on Apr 4, 2003 at 12:46 PM
This was an excellent story, and literally the first time I’d heard about the stagehands misrepresenting audience reaction. I guess it’s an apt metaphor for the media right now, a handful of people with clout fixing public perception.
Posted by Adam Reger on Apr 4, 2003 at 12:46 PM
To Adam in Pa.
You put that so eloquently… Bravo!!
Posted by Red on Apr 4, 2003 at 1:04 PM
The world is always at war. The rich will always exploit the poor. Opinions don’t matter, actions do. Some of the ‘pro war’ rantings are really very funny. I nearly pissed my pants reading Diane from Chicago, open your eyes says the war is not about oil it’s about…oil(guess he forgot to open his eyes and read his own opinion), but the racist jokes(five surgeons etc) are side splitting comedy. Most of these Americans are not necessarily malicious, they are merely closed minded and easily manipulated. They prefer to rationalize their guilt with partial explanations, they believe only what they want to. The only hope left is that some people here are begining to see how things are and how they have always been, but don’t count on it.
Posted by demo suzuki on Apr 4, 2003 at 1:04 PM
It just dawned on me that some Americans might still not know the reason that 9/11 could ever get underway. These people will, quite rightfully, ask themselves why USA was singled out for such a terrorist action.
I think that the US media have been so good at spinning the 9/11 story that the story about what the fuck motivated these guys has never been told. I’m not agreeing with their methods, their attitude, their anything. I’m just asking for 5 minutes of thinking.
In any criminal case, an 9/11 was a criminal case, one of the most vital parts of the police investigation is motive, IE. why did the perpetrator do what he did. Why did the 9/11 people do what they did? They certainly weren’t crazy as no crazy people could pull off an action that demanded military precision. They were fanatics, yes, but that’s no motive. What made Osama and his suicide pilots hate USA as much as they did, hate USA so much that they were quite willing to give their life for it?
It’s a very, very nasty question to ask yourself, but understanding why another person is out to do you harm is almost as important as defending yourself. So take 5 minutes out of this debate and ask yourself why.
After you know why, ask yourself if attacking Iraq will have prevented another terrorist attack in any way?
My view, as I’ve already stated, is that the US strayed from their “Gentle Giant” stage where they were fighting wars out of ideology, to a “Corporate Giant” that fights wars for profit. This war will not make USA any safer at all, in fact all it will do is make you 20 million more death sworn enemies, men (possibly women) determined to make you pay.
No Nation is perfect and all nations must eventually act to assure their own safety, but safety is not making more enemies and keeping the wheels in the same old rut that preticipated 9/11. USA need to change it’s foreign policy or at least let the world know it’s projections over the next 20 to 30 years. You are now the only superpower, well hyperpower to be frank, and that carries a huge responsabillity. You cannot allow yourself stop-gap solutions any more, they simply invite more counteractions. Get the world on your bandwagon instead of alienating everyone.
Martin Hansen.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 4, 2003 at 1:21 PM
P.S.
While attending chemistry lessons at university, our teacher told us about an accident with a fertilizer ship in South America. It was carrying an Ammoinia/Nitrate fertilizer which got wet and blew up. It levelled an entire port and a LOT of people lost their lives. Think about what a ship full of this fertilizer made into a bomb, ala the Oklahoma bombing, would do to one of your habours. This fertilizer is completely legitimate and so is diesel oil. Give me 2 million dollars and I could make a bomb to level Manhattan, or bring down the Golden Gate. Until people, and I don’t just mean Muslims, as a big coutry who meddles only out of self interrest with corporate gains in mind, you’ll never be safe again.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 4, 2003 at 1:22 PM
Tom…
Once again, I’m convinced that the real heart of our debate needs to happen about the MEDIA, and how we evaluate conflicting information that is been given to us as “truth.”
I don’t wish to degenerate into “snippet warfare,” where I’m endlessly sourcing articles that either refute your position, or present a different version of events. You’re aware, I’m sure, that these articles are out there…not merely in the “lunatic fringe,” but in nearly every media not directly controlled by the same “power elite.” I encourage you to monitor the FAIR website (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting http://www.fair.org ) They have much to say regarding these matters.
My focus on media has quite a lot to do with my own study of the subject, as well as from teaching critical “Media Literacy” as a part of our high school English curriculum here in Manitoba. Media literacy can be distilled into the following “Key Concepts” (sorry…I’m sounding like a teacher, here…but DO read these, since they inform a good part of my own “critical lense”) These concepts were compiled by a media analyst and educator with whom I have spoken on several occasions, John Pungente, S.J.
http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/teachers/media_literacy/key_concept.cfm
I don’t think that, having read these “key concepts,” you’ll find any of
them terribly controversial. The basic idea is simply that messages sourced
through ANY media outlet are NOT “value neutral.”...
So how, then, do we evaluate the multitudinous messages we see each day?
(continued…)
Posted by Tim on Apr 4, 2003 at 1:31 PM
(continued…)
Well…One of the reasons I am rather faithful to the CBC here in Canada is that it is what we call a “crown corporation,” paid for by tax dollars. While this doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have a BIAS, it DOES mean that the bias is likely somewhat different than stations who rely exclusively on commercial revenue from advertisers. (I should add that I always consult MULTIPLE sources when I’m seriously interested in a story…I try to find the most vastly disparate “slants”, and then I try to sift through the messages for what I believe to approximate the “truth.”)
The principle is simple: If FOX NEWS has commercials for “Zest Soap” interrupting it, what are the odds that the “Zest Soap Overpriced!”-story will ever air on it? (simplistic example…sorry) After all, Zest is PAYING the station for air time… It is suicidal for big networks to run stories that are critical of their FUNDING BASE.
What does all of this have to do with the war? Well, Tom.. It has everything to do with what you referred to as “political” motivations for the war.. (those motivations that are not as simple as “eliminating weapons” and “liberating Iraqis”)... We KNOW that it isn’t that simple, or else we would also intervene militarily in East Timor, China, Saudi Arabia…etc.,etc.,etc… (right?)
My contention is that these political (read “power”) goals relate to the goals of the corporations controlling the mainstream media in the US. (see http://www.cjr.org/owners/index.asp for a comprehensive index of who owns what in the world of international media)...
(continued…)
Posted by Tim on Apr 4, 2003 at 1:33 PM
(continued…)
A quick example: General Electric is a huge corporation which, in addition to owning many mainstream media (including NBC, MSNBC, A&E, History Channel, etc…) ALSO happens to be one of the largest weapons manufacturers in the world (if not THE largest)...
Perhaps this has no effect on the stories we see on the networks they control, but I think it would be naive to think so.
It is difficult to talk about these things without sounding like a nutjob “conspiracy theorist,” but hopefully by now, through our prior “conversations,” I’ve convinced you that I’m not a lunatic…
This war in the media is a huge PR campaign… Yes, I’m happy that Jessica Lynch is okay… But the sceptical part of me…the part that learned 2-years after “Gulf War I” that the “Incubator Atrocities” never happened, and the story was effectively a “commercial” to build support for war… well… THAT part of me is looking for where the sound boom and lighting is coming from in the hospital pictures. (watch the (VERY FICTIONAL) movie “Wag the Dog” for the most cynical version of this)
Even if the story is completely “true” and “honest”, we must STILL ask ourselves WHY we are seeing IT, rather than a nearly INFINITE number of possible stories… (Like the story on BBC 2 nights ago of a Christian family in Iraq being killed by a stray coalition missile… Isn’t that “newsworthy” for the US networks?)
I don’t expect you to suddenly go “OH! I guess I can’t trust anything on big American television”... Of course you’re not going to say that… But MAYBE, in coming days, I can persuade you to take a more critical perspective on the source of your “truth”.
Posted by Tim on Apr 4, 2003 at 1:34 PM
Well, here we are. The only democracy in the world: The internet. Because everywhere else things said are changed, altered, cut, and lied upon (and here too, i might add - it is simply more difficult to control, and thank ... whom ever for that). Shouldn’t those who gave their comments below mine have added an e-mail or at least a name? Just to make themselves a little more believable and true to the nature of the socalled democratic way of the glorious West. But no, cowards seem to flock in the shadows.
So let me tell you about Denmark. We too have been flinged into this killingspree of a war on terror or whatever they (i.e. politicians) try to convince us this is. A majority of my people were against this shamefull act of… well, lets call a horse by it’s name: Terror. The danes didn’t wish for this war let alone to participate. We thought that with our system (one person, one vote, as Mchael Moore calls it) were protected from these kinds of corruptionist politicians and their illigate koups (sorry about the spelling). But our system is not a safety against this; any type of democracy is at fall as we speak. We are waging a war for democracy by killing every free thought and man on this infantile little heckhole we call Earth. For what, some might ask (I, for one do)? The smell of green, the taste of today (and not tomorrow!), the sound of freedom (not the vision!), the manipulated pictures of succes and the everlasting thrust forward with no looking back.
I bow my head, in the realisation of democracys fall. I am as of today no longer an democrat (in its worldly sense). If this is democracy, bring me terror, bring me death, bring me quiet peace, leaving only the searing sound of a single gunshot.
For the Republicans who didn’t get this last part: I’ll listen to Marilyn Manson and i’m gonna go Bowling for Columbine.
Sincerly and truly not one of you
Johannes Ingwersen, dk.
Posted by Johannes Ingwersen on Apr 4, 2003 at 1:44 PM
In a discussion, such as this, we stop and listen(read) what others have to say. It is equally important to keep your thoughts brief and to the point. Those of you who are rambling on or submitting successive entries, should consider trying to cut back. No one is going to be interested in reading long, pointless entries or ones with misspelled words and poor grammar . Proof read and keep it short. I acknowledge a couple of misspellings myself(no one is perfect) and if english is not yer first language ok, but if you are American, you have no excuse. Oh wait what am I thinking… yes you do, yer American and the education system is designed to make you deaf, dumb and blind. This entry has now reached it’s maximum length.
Posted by demo suzuki on Apr 4, 2003 at 1:58 PM
Hi Tim
I can see you & Tom are in the middle of a debate so I hope you don’t mind if I jump in for just a minute.
I have been watching the CBC as well as CNN & any other network I can access not to mention all the reading I am sure we have all done as well.
My point is this… I don’t really care whose reporting the war. I think most reasonable adults know that news is going to be somewhat biased. The truth is you can’t sugarcoat war & the images of death. No matter what network you are watching the images coming from Iraq are very sad indeed.
Still that doesn’t change my mind about the war. I believe that in this case war was the only alternative left & stand by that opinion.
Please convince me with reasonable arqument that there were still alternatives out there to this war & what they are.
Posted by Red on Apr 4, 2003 at 2:06 PM
Red:
You contend that “war was the only alternative” in the case of Iraq, and invite me to entertain others.
Before I do, let me direct your attention to the US Department of State’s website, where it catalogues Human Rights Reports on countries from around the world. (From the 2001 report)
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/
Let’s take a random country from the list provided, shall we? How about… um… Nepal (?)
What do we have here….
a. Arbitrary or Unlawful Deprivation of Life
b. Disappearance
c. Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
d. Arbitrary Arrest, Detention, or Exile
(...I could go on and on, right?)
So I guess the question I’d ask is: What other alternative to WAR do we have with ANY of these countries where we know unbelievable atrocities are being carried out? (And why are we being so selective in our “liberation” of the Iraqis?)
(continued…)
Posted by Tim on Apr 4, 2003 at 2:41 PM
(continued…)
I suppose our “alternatives” have quite a bit to do with our “objectives,” right? I mean… If our objective is “regime change,” then we’ve already really limited our options… If our “objective” is limiting global terrorism, then (even according to the Oct. 2002 CIA report), military intervention in Iraq is working AGAINST us.
So before I finish addressing your question about “alternatives”...let’s talk about “objectives”.
After all, if my objective is to “stop my neighbour from beating his kids,” my alternatives are significantly different than if I wish to “protect MYSELF from my neighbour,” or, for that matter, “purchase my neighbour’s house.”
Posted by Tim on Apr 4, 2003 at 2:46 PM
i would seem that many have not read your constitution or misunderstand it
Posted by mark on Apr 4, 2003 at 3:28 PM
I just received a fascinating article from my Aunt, a professor and Historian at UofC, who has worked with the UN on Bosnian “war crimes” investigations.
For those of an “academic” persuasion, it is a fairly interesting look at one of the proposed leaders for the “new, liberated Iraq.”
http://www.prospect.org/print/V13/21/dreyfuss-r.html
Posted by Tim on Apr 4, 2003 at 3:33 PM
You pro-war nuts act like a bunch of communists. Shelley, grow up, do you employ any objectivity at all. And you non-Texans, this Resident Bush has completely trashed Texas like Ken Lay did Enron. Peace and Love from a red necked Texan
Posted by Eric on Apr 4, 2003 at 4:36 PM
Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.
Posted by Beemer on Apr 4, 2003 at 4:36 PM
Tim
To touch on that media subject very briefly again, while Saddam may not have been making the news on the CBC, he has stayed in the headlines in the US since the end of the Gulf War.
In the case of Saddam I truly believe that the if the UN had done their job after the Gulf War we wouldn’t be there now. (and before you get started on 1991, I agree we should have finished the job then instead of abandoning the country)
Saddam has continually fired upon ally planes patroling the no fly zones. That alone should have been enough for the UN to seek action as Iraq was in direct violation of any one of the resolutions that have been written or rewritten the last 12 years.
Certainly the genocide of an entire people would cause the UN to rise up & force this madman out wouldn’t you think?
I do absolutely believe that 9/11 shook the US up but it should have shaken up more than just the US. The World Trade Center housed businesses from around the world, 47 different countries I believe, & we were all victims. Not just the Americans.
Atrocities in other countries? I realize there are other countries where the people are suffering at the hands of evil dictators. Hopefully the UN will not continue to sit idly by on their hands & actually start taking positive steps towards the liberation of all people.
Posted by Red on Apr 4, 2003 at 4:37 PM
In reviewing the posts on here, I did notice a lot of name calling. I wont lie, I actually slipped up on an earlier post and told a guy where to stick his…
Anyway, as I was driving home I started thinking about these posts (I am actually quite happy that there are so many people that see things similar to me)—and I started to think about something I read by Dr. Martin Luther King. I’m sure I will butcher this quote, but it goes something to the effect “the best way to defeat your enemy, is to make him believe your point of view”.
So, instead of telling people they are stupid assholes, it might help to try to convince them otherwise.
-a
Posted by andrew on Apr 4, 2003 at 4:37 PM
Red…
In response to your last post, where you said: “while Saddam may not have been making the news on the CBC, he has stayed in the headlines in the US since the end of the Gulf War.”
(I’ll leave aside that Saddam HAS, in fact, been in CBC’s news… You LIVE in Canada, and should know that we all ALSO watch US networks, too, right?)
but that aside for a moment:
Of COURSE Saddam Hussein has stayed in the mainstream media in the US!!... He’s the “boogey-man” of the post-cold-war era! (Has the Ayatollah Khamenei, in Iran, ALSO stayed in US news? Remember he was the LAST “bad guy”... How about Mohmmar Qadaffi, of Libya fame? Remember him?... Maybe these two countries are “flying straight” these days, though..(?))
Secondly: What, exactly, is the link between 9/11 and Iraq? (Apart from the fact that they are frequently mentioned in the same sentence by news personnel and politicians)
Is the war in Iraq related to “retaliation” for 9/11? That’s sort-of odd, don’t you think? (Especially since no evidence links Iraq to the WTC attack… In fact, Osama Bin Laden hails from Saudi Arabia, our “good buddies” in international oil trade…Why have we not attacked the Saudis? Have you LOOKED at their human rights record? YIKES!)
Even MORE interestingly… When the Oklahoma city bombing took place, and the bombing spree of the “Uni-bomber”... Why didn’t the Department of Defence tear apart the American Midwest looking for other disenfranchised, white, middle-class “terrorists?”
(Thoughts to ponder…)
Posted by Tim on Apr 4, 2003 at 5:04 PM
Tim
The point I am making about 9/11 is this… If we ( us, they) weren’t concerned about evil & what it can do up until that point, I would think that in the aftermath of 9/11 that the world would wake up & realize we have to do what we can to keep the madmen of the world under control. ( for lack of a better term).
As for the CBC comment, I have been here since May of 2001 & I was more or less asking the question.
Oklahoma City… A sickening reminder of what hate can do. I like to believe that my gov’t is doing all they can to fight hate on our soil as well. (I know you’re going to nail me on that one!)
Posted by Red on Apr 4, 2003 at 6:06 PM
Red: (on “keeping the madmen of the world under control”)
Great idea. Let’s start by not CREATING them.
Have we forgotten, so soon, that BOTH Saddam and Osama (if these are the “madmen of choice” on today’s menu), were propped up and trained by the CIA? We WANTED Saddam powerful, back in the day, because he was “kicking some Ayatollah-butt,” courtesy of our wonderful, western weapons(chemical, too!)
The post WWII era is a litany of US foreign policy intervening in various ways, and to varying degrees, with just about every country on the globe.
To be sure, many of these interventions have probably had beneficial results for some of the people living in those countries… (just because I can’t think of an example off of the top of my head, it doesn’t mean it isn’t out there!)
If you’re REALLY interested in a scary picture, check out this interview with William Blum, formerly of the US State Department. What he says about United States foreign policy in his book, “Killing Hope,” will make you rather uncomfortable. http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Bloody_Road_Empire.html
Inquiry into the question of “madmen” seems to suggest, ironically, that we are, indeed, more interested in “controlling” them, than we are in “eliminating” them.
Thanks for keeping up the discussion… Others appear to have “dropped out”
Posted by Tim on Apr 4, 2003 at 6:31 PM
It doesn’t matter if you agree with Michael Moore or not. He has the balls to put his opinions, and his reputation on the line for what he believes in. You gotta respect that. Who else do you know who will actually do that, without pussyfooting round in the middleground?? And he also backs up a statement. If you’ve read anything by Michael Moore, you’ll realise hes not just being half assed when he claims Bush is a false president, and that this war is false. Unfortunately, the aging conservatives, in the academy, don’t appreciate fresh views on world politics by a petty citizen, and didn’t exactly give him time to voice the full story at the academy awards. He’s being doing the same stuff since his film ‘Roger and Me’, and even if he is a bit extreme - who cares?! The man is incredible, and believe it or not is only fighting for the good of democracy, and for the good of the average citizen.
Posted by Bevan on Apr 4, 2003 at 6:58 PM
Breaking News:
Iraq may ‘escalate horrible tactics’:
-Pentagon
“Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke said Iraqi fighters have been using hospitals, schools, mosques and residential areas as military storage sites and command posts “clearly hoping to blame any civilian deaths on coalition forces.”“
Blame coalition forces for civilian deaths? That’s ABSURD! All the coalition is doing is dropping tens of thousands of bombs and high-explosive missiles on a city of 6-million people…
How DARE those crooked Iraqis try to suggest that “we” are, in any way, responsible for civilian deaths!
Posted by Tim on Apr 4, 2003 at 7:15 PM
The FAA has rigid guidelines as do Air Traffic Controllers. One of these mandates that ANY aircraft which deviates a mere 2 miles from it’s flight route must be reported to the proper authorities, i.e.-NORAD. Flights of every size deviate from their appointed routes on an average about 50-60 times yearly. When this happens and simultaneously, the pilot of these craft do not respond to Air Traffic Control…fighter jets are IMMEDIATELY scrambled and ALWAYS intercept these off-course planes. They then signal to the errant pilot by tipping their wings up and down. If there’s still no appropriate response from the pilot, warning shots are fired near the off-course plane. If there is no sign at this point, the fighters are to forcibly escort the plane to land. If all this fails and the plane is deemed to be purposefully headed for populated areas, including tall buildings in Huge Megalopoli, (Like New York), they have the duty to shoot them down. This is standard procedure by Norad. It has always been adhered to religiously…except for 9/11. Another means of avoiding what happened that day was outlined succinctly by a group of seasoned, veteren pilots. To a man they all agreed that were there a terrorist threat aboard such as was alleged to be the case on 9/11…they would flip the plane upside down so that whoever was standing, (the alleged terrorists), would land on their heads and break their necks. Except for 9/11. Gross Incompetence by all authorities concerned or complicity. I’m sure you can all draw your own conclusions.
Posted by Dom on Apr 4, 2003 at 7:21 PM
Laura from Toronto (citing a Bush quote):
>>>“I’ve been to war. I’ve raised twins. If I had a choice, I’d rather go to war.” -George W Bush, Jan 7/2002>>>
I wonder which WAR that might have been? Dubya, like many rich, politically connected young men, was given preferential admittance over 100,000 other applicants trying to get into the National Guard during the Vietnam War. That means that he never actually saw combat. In fact, according to Molly Ivins, the author of
Posted by linda z on Apr 4, 2003 at 7:39 PM
Tim from Winnepeg:
>>>It is suicidal for big networks to run stories that are critical of their FUNDING BASE
Posted by linda z on Apr 4, 2003 at 7:59 PM
I absolutely agree with you. My country has made some terrible mistakes in the past. I don’t believe however that any US President thought (Reagan, Bush, Clinton) that Saddam would turn out to be the “Hitler ” of our time.
I do believe Saddam has to go & if the UN won’t , can’t, whatever, then yes, I believe the coalition has done the right thing.
War is a terrible thing but nothing else has seemed to work. The bastard continued to fire on ally planes patroling the no fly zone during the last inspections, he denied the inspectors interviews with the scientists, anything he could do to antagonize the situation he did it. You can’t tell me that wasn’t intentional &
I have no doubt Saddam is getting exactly what he asked for!
Posted by Red on Apr 4, 2003 at 8:03 PM
Tim, love the polling questions you presented as satire on how the media is getting its polling results. I’m sure the media’s questions are subtler than that but your point is well made. The media is making every effort to get results it desires
Linda, you mentioned: ‘War Against Freedom’...who wrote it…and how long ago was it published? I want a copy.
It’s truly amazing, the argument of, “Saddam has weapons of mass destruction” became “Liberate people of Iraq”!
Colin Powell’s Dog/Pony show at UN included many excerpts from graduate students treatises of ten years back doing research.
Condoleeza Rice made efforts to broker deals which scenarios could be found justifying war on Iraq. This was shortly after Bush/Cheney unelected Junta took over.
Every key player in this has huge investments in oil corporations. Conflicts of interests abound!
With potential exception of Japan after WWII…We’ve never democratized any country after we have bombed or invaded it.
At Pro-war rallies people participating are treated with respect…At Anti-war rallies…we are threatened, labeled, libeled, we have rocks thrown at us…
Anyone who takes labor’s side over big business and questions ethics of corporate America and legitimacy of their actions is labeled ‘Pinko’ Commies. Anyone who believes America is too quick to bomb and militarily invade another country is treated to McCarthyite tactics.
Let’s ask Red, White and blue conservative right-wingers to do something constructive!
That is to please bury your unseemly hidden love for Joe McCarthy and never let him surface again! Corporate loving conservatives were against: minimum wage laws, child-labor laws, anti-trust laws, security exchange commissions, pollution standards, social security, workers rights to organize and express grievances against corporate employers…
Please people if you folks on the right don’t want these pesky regulation that are rightfully called STANDARDS…then you can surely move to third world sweatshops where those pesky regulations do not exists.
Civil rights activist Medgar Evers was snipered down in his drive way in 1964…the last words he allegedly heard were from his little daughters who cried out: “Daddy, Daddy please get up”. How many Iraqi children are going to bed fatherless thinking the same sentiment as their papas lie dying in the sand shot with american bullets because of this illegal invasion…
George
Posted by George on Apr 4, 2003 at 8:13 PM
Red:
I wasn’t aware of that Dr. Helen Caldicott story…thanks… I’ll have to look into it… but stuff like that is happening ALL THE TIME.
(I heard that dear old Phil Donahue has been pulled lately, too… truth be told, I don’t really watch television too much (not without cable!))
As far as your favourite “Hitler” and mine, Saddam… I can’t find my source right now, but are you aware that the initial comparisons between Saddam and Hitler came about as a result of “focus groups” in the days leading up to Gulf War I?
The PR firms looking to build public support for war determined that a combination of “demonizing a single leader through comparisons to Hitler,” and atrocity tales (a la “incubator stories”) was the most effective way to galvanize public support for a war.
Check out the following article, from January of this year… (I’ve decided to use ABC News as a source on this one… ‘thought that’d be less controversial)
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/demonizing_saddam030129.html
Saddam is NOT a good guy. He IS, I believe, pretty scary…
...But if the only “dirt” we have on him from the past 10 years is “shooting at planes that are flying over his country”...Well… I dunno… I preferred the incubator fictions, as far as “raising my ire” is concerned.
Posted by Tim on Apr 4, 2003 at 8:33 PM
Tim
It is a cliche but I do believe that Saddam is the “Hitler” of our time. I have read a couple really good books on his reign, how he came to power & the atrocities he has unleashed on his own people. Not just the Kurds but also those closest to him & let’s not forget about his son’s & the terror they are responsible for.
And Tim… I think you & I both know that his crimes are far worse than shooting planes down. That was merely an example of his continuing efforts to antagonize the US & their allies. (not that any crimes should be made light of)
As I said before… Saddam is getting exactly what he wanted with this war.
Posted by Red on Apr 4, 2003 at 8:44 PM
November 21st, 1864 in a letter to Col. William F. Elkins from President Abraham Lincoln: “We may congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its end. It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood…It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless.” Sound familiar? And to think, that Great man was assassinated a mere six months later. Guess that’s what everybody means by claiming they’re REAL Americans. Also, this was about 22 years BEFORE the Supreme Court of 1886 voted 5 to 4 in upholding the insane concept that corporations are to be construed as, “persons”. Wow, Lincoln was more than prescient in his thoughts. The New World Order is the final permutation of that historical prophecy. We live what he feared then- today and yet can’t bring ourselves to admit it such as supporting Michael Moore’s brave attempts to begin eradicating this contemptible influence in our lives. He can’t do it alone, people. If you don’t mind being indentured servants I guess I can understand how rabidly you feel you need to cling to the scraps they toss you for slavishly dancing to their cracking bullwhips. Lincoln died for freeing unwilling slaves. What can one do when those slaves are voluntary?
Posted by Dom on Apr 4, 2003 at 9:05 PM
You are all worthless pieces of shit. None of you are interesting and you will all be killed in the revolution. This is not some dating chat room you nerds(Tim, Red + Tom), this is supposed to be an egotistical grandstanding jerkoff session. Please stick to the agenda.
Posted by demo suzuki on Apr 4, 2003 at 10:59 PM
demo:
You’ve said some interesting things over the past few days on this site(notwithstanding your last comment). Are you, by any chance, DRINKING on this lovely Friday night?
(ps—I thought we WERE grandstanding)
Posted by Tim on Apr 5, 2003 at 12:00 AM
hey demo. u promised me ‘n candi u’d spend tonite on r regular chat site. what r u doing here?
xoxoxo
;)
Posted by Gorgeous doll on Apr 5, 2003 at 12:20 AM
There are always people who denie the truth,MM is one of my hero’s who reveils the truth.And those people who denie the truth,and there are many of those people,either too dumb to see the"real” picture,or smart enough but denie the truth because it could be used against them,those people are the “brain” of many bad things in live.Evil.And to everybody who reads his book SWM and still say ‘Go Bush”...STOP deneing that America made a big mistake with this man.
I respect everybody who says what he whants(or in MM case what was needed),even if he/she will be jammed in any way.
I can’t wait till the releise of your’e new movie.
Posted by ingmar steenhoff on Apr 5, 2003 at 12:59 AM
Yes, Tim, our forces ARE responsible for those civilian deaths. Every US soldier over there is responsible. I urge everyone NOT to support those troops in this illegal, immoral and unconstitutional war.
Shame on all of you who do support such murder.
WWJD.
Posted by neil on Apr 5, 2003 at 1:35 AM
Top Ten Things That Will Get You Kicked Out Of Iraq
10. Replacing giant mural of Saddam with a giant mural of you
9. Addressing all the officers as Cap’n Crunch
8. Teaching captured Iraqi soldiers to sing Kenny Rogers ballads
7. Giving precise coordinates of Wolf Blitzer’s beard
6. Closing each report with “Bless our enlightened ruler Saddam Hussein, may he reign for 1,000 years”
5. Distributing leaflets telling Iraqi citizens how to save money by dialing 10-10-220
4. Senior officer asks to see you at 0400 hours; you show up 400 hours later
3. Your name is Geraldo Rivera
2. Your name is Saddam Hussein
1. Bringing your videophone into the show
Gotta love Dave! LOL!
Posted by ciara on Apr 5, 2003 at 1:55 AM
i thought this was a very good story. i think moore is absolutely right about this war. once you peal away the bias of the media coverage that you are constantly pounded with you get a different picture of this war. a war that doesn’t add up. no iraqis have ever came here and killed any of us. they haven’t even threatened to. this war is all on a notion that they “MIGHT” attack us. that makes it unjust. thanks
Posted by brent surratt on Apr 5, 2003 at 2:05 AM
Well, here we are. The only democracy in the world: The internet. Because everywhere else things said are changed, altered, cut, and lied upon (and here too, i might add - it is simply more difficult to control, and thank ... whom ever for that). Shouldn’t those who gave their comments below mine have added an e-mail or at least a name? Just to make themselves a little more believable and true to the nature of the socalled democratic way of the glorious West. But no, cowards seem to flock in the shadows.
So let me tell you about Denmark. We too have been flinged into this killingspree of a war on terror or whatever they (i.e. politicians) try to convince us this is. A majority of my people were against this shamefull act of… well, lets call a horse by it’s name: Terror. The danes didn’t wish for this war let alone to participate. We thought that with our system (one person, one vote, as Michael Moore calls it) we were protected from these kinds of corruptionist politicians and their illigate koups (sorry about the spelling). But our system is not a safety against this; any type of democracy is at fall as we speak. We are waging a war for democracy by killing every free thought and man on this infantile little heckhole we call Earth. For what, some might ask (I, for one do)? The smell of green, the taste of today (and not tomorrow!), the sound of freedom (not the vision!), the manipulated pictures of succes and the everlasting thrust forward with no looking back.
I bow my head, in the realisation of democracys fall. I am as of today no longer an democrat (in its worldly sense). If this is democracy, bring me terror, bring me death, bring me quiet peace, leaving only the searing sound of a single gunshot. And statistics say the bullet be bought at some other convinience-store than K-Mart, since Michael Morres film.
For the Republicans who didn’t get this last part: I’ll listen to Marilyn Manson and i’m gonna go Bowling for Columbine.
Sincerly and truly not one of you
Johannes Ingwersen, dk.
Posted by Johannes Ingwersen on Apr 5, 2003 at 2:56 AM
As an outsider let me assure you Michael Moore and some of these entertainers are giving the rest of the world assurance that there are still some sane and none stupid people left in the USA. We were all wondering there for a while. Go Michael!!
Posted by Lina on Apr 5, 2003 at 4:32 AM
To Red:
The point is not:
“If the UN would have done their job”
but more likeley:
“if the US and GB would have let the UN doing their job”
if you don’t mind a bit of “eye opening”, I would suggest you the lecture of:
Sponeck, Hans von; “UN Policy in Iraq”
Since this english translation is not published yet, you should read the german language book:
“Irak. Chronik eines gewollten Krieges”
Hans von Sponeck was coordinator for the UN “oil for food” program in Iraq for 2 years and just like his predecessor he quit the job. reading this book will give you some impressions on his and his predecessors reasons to quit.
Hans von Sponeck worked 30 years for the UN.
By the way, there is nothing like the UN “no fly zone” in south and north Iraq. This “no fly” zones aren’t backed by any UN resolution.
Sadam is still in Iraq because US and GB did not want to let the UN make their job.
Posted by Marco on Apr 5, 2003 at 4:36 AM
To Liloan Stitch,
so now that you have shown us all this great material about how “Untruthful” the film really is, will you go see it or have you already seen it?
Using other peoples critique of a film smells of intellectual dishonesty from yourself. Why not see the film and point out the glaring errors yourself?
You can call “bowling for Columbine” a mockumentary all you want, it doesn’t detract from the films genuine attempt at solving an american paradox: America is the richest nation on the planet and yet they are the most frigthened nation too, even with a great big military there is fear.
I live in a country where the ownership of a Handgun is concidered “odd” or “weird” in the extreme. I wouldn’t want it any other way. I lock my door to be sure, but why on earth would I want a handgun for defence, I might kill someone with it. If someone breaks into my home, he can be assured that I wont shoot him, I can be assured that he wont shoot me and we both know that the insurance company will pay for the theft and the police will arrest him at some point…or not. Burglary is a minor irritation, not a fear factor at all. The police in Denmark are armed with handguns, but this is mainly due to an incident 40 years ago when a car thief shot and killed 4 young policemen. It’s never been repeated, and the police are now only injured in accidental shootings, most often from their own weapons.
Your gunculture sickens me and the propagation of this culture in Hollywood films in general disgusts me even more. This is what “Bowling..” really adresses, the complete insistance that guns make you safer. As long as you slaughter close to 10.000 people a year with guns, I don’t see how you can be anything but medieval. I have a bigger chance of being struck and killed by lightning than being shot by a stranger. THAT is safety.
Martin Hansen.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 5, 2003 at 4:53 AM
Red:
Are you aware of the fact, that the US encouraged the Iraq in 1980 to begin war with Iran? Do you know something about the problems, the US had, loosing the Iran as stategic partner in middle east by the regime change in Iran 1979?
Are you aware of the fact, that the Iraq got “green light” for his 1990 Kuwait invasion by the American Ambassador in Kuweit?
Why do people tend to think, Sadam is a sort of Hitler? He is one of the biggest tyrans, that’s sure. But How many tyrans do we have in this world, led by the US, or at least with their OK, just because their interests are the same for the moment.
It wouldn’t be bad for some Americans to have a closer look at persons like Wolfowitz and Perle.
Posted by Marco on Apr 5, 2003 at 6:06 AM
Manipulation, you are used to this matter of fact….. to a certain point, u didn notice what is Bush administration is doing with you and your country.
USA starts an illegitim war on Iraq, and Bush way of Ruling is nothing better than hitler…
Posted by Aeight on Apr 5, 2003 at 8:20 AM
Yes I know Marco. The US & the coalition are the bad guys here & Saddam is a prince in devil’s clothing. Poor little thing being picked on by the big, bad US. Give me a break!
Doesn’t really matter now as part one is almost over.
Might I suggest a little reading for you as well… Con Coughlin’s “Reign of Terror” or even better, Latif Yahya’s “I was Saddam’s Son”.
I think we should all have a closer look at those we defend.
Posted by Red on Apr 5, 2003 at 8:48 AM
People are people wherever you go. Good & bad. That is more reason for me as to why this war had to be fought. People are people & we all deserve to be free. No one should be able to get away with the atrocities that Saddam has inflicted on his own people. I can’t help but believe that in the end when the people of Iraq are liberated that they will be thankful someone finally stood up for them. The UN certainly didn’t.
Posted by Red on Apr 5, 2003 at 9:56 AM
Red:
Nothing is over, the US will find another Sadam, that’s sure.
You really try hard to get things wrong. Sure Sadam is a tyran (in respect to his own people), but he is no danger for his neighbours and not a danger for the US at all. US foreign policies are a bit funny in the last 30 years.
What if it could be proofen (and it can), that the US knows, that Sadam is not a danger at all, what if the US and GB killed more than 1.6 Million Iraqis (far more, than Sadam ever did) with keeping the embargo on Iraq. Things seem so easy undestandable, if you watch US mainstream news networks, but they aren’t.
US weapon inspectors said by 1998 the Iraq was disarmed by at least 95%. UN coordinators for the “oil for food” program repeatedly calculated the per head amount of money through the “oil for food” program at about 32 US cents per day! (For food, medicine, and infrastructure).
If Sadam was only of little danger 1991, how could he be of bigger danger 12 embargo years later?
Get the facts and you will begin to wonder.
Posted by Marco on Apr 5, 2003 at 10:33 AM
George from Indiana: >>>Linda, you mentioned: ‘War Against Freedom’...who wrote it…and how long ago was it published? I want a copy.>>>
The War on Freedom is written by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed, published in June, 2002. You can purchase it directly from Tree of Life publications or Amazon.com.
http://waronfreedom.mediamonitors.net/index2.html
It also contains sample pages with excerpts from the book.
Another website with detailed information about September 11th is hosted by a former LAPD narcotics investigator who discovered the CIA was trading drugs in order to fund covert operations in the Middle East. He was forced out of his job a year later.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/index.html
When you read the information contained in both of these books, you
Posted by linda z on Apr 5, 2003 at 10:33 AM
DEMO SUZUKI FROM NEGATIVELAND:
It is because of people like you that I dropped out of this debate in the first plae. You have proven time and again to be an ignorant, vulgar, uninformed, unitelligent belligerent simpleton.
And don’t knock chat rooms. I met my wife in a chat room. We’ve known each other for 7 years and been married for 3 and 1/2. Thanks for playing.
AND NEIL FOR BOISE:
You’re no bed of roses either. I’ve never understood Americans who hate America so much but continue to live here and just bitch and moan. If you hate our homeland so much, why there hell don’t you just go live somewhere else? “America: love it or leave it” is a tired and over-used cliche. But it’s more true now than it has ever been. There are over 220 countries in this world. Be my guest…...
Tom from Denver, loving America as much as ever and offended by some of the crap on this site as much as ever.
Back to the email platform.
Posted by Tom on Apr 5, 2003 at 10:56 AM
It is unfourtunate that i was bornin such a time where truth cannot be revealed, because the media does not want the truth. they want a nice pretty fake reality. I am not yet an adult, so my opion on this matter may not be acnoknowledged. however, the matter still remains. how can we live with these fake elections, fake news and fake tv?
Posted by David on Apr 5, 2003 at 11:20 AM
Go on Michael Moore!!
I fear America ‘s falling back in a kind of McCarthy era: Artists on stage are cut off or - like Natalie and her Chicks - are blacklistet. Is this the way of democracy an freedom you’d like to bring to Iraq? In this case I really have to hope the Iraq’s population will resist America’s invasion!! Shame on “Governor” Bush and his supporters. They should be taken to the international tribunal at Den Haag. But this is in Old Europe, which seems to be a part of “the axis of the evil” - unfortunately I’m really disillusioned at my old friendship to America.
If anybody in America wants to get off his Dixie Chicks CDs, me and a big crowd of friends would really like to take them!!! - Have you ever considered what happened in Germany at 1938, 9th of November at the “Reichskristallnacht”? Think about it and don’t dare to damn anybody who’s calling out his point of view!!!
Posted by Mark Hannig on Apr 5, 2003 at 11:23 AM
Well now I have good reason to boycott watching Bowling for Columbine. Thanks a lot, Michael Moore!
Posted by RB on Apr 5, 2003 at 12:07 PM
It was high time for everybody to hear something like what mr. moore said. my heart goes with him supporting every word he said.God bless good and BRAVE people! Go everybody to watch his documentary film!
Posted by maria on Apr 5, 2003 at 12:19 PM
The despair, feigned insouciance, outright hatred, sincere and thoughtful concern we have all thusfar revealed with our verbiage on this forum are good for at least one thing…an easy hit-list for extremist agents of either side. Those who chose to remain incognito know full well they too will be found when the time comes. And you infiltrators from this Banana Republic’s Central Incineration Agencies, well, thanks for your unsuccessful attempts to divert attention from the crux of the problem the rest of us are trying to hash out. You others who think wrapping yourselves in flags, pasting them all over your gas-suckin’ SUVs will immunize you from the coming dictatorial takeover…think again. Then in the aftermath of that takeover, if you’re not afraid of the ineluctable violent reaction that will naturally boomerang back at ya…Forget about it. You will be living in a state of fear you’d never have thought possible coming from once peaceful people then cornered and forced to take down as many as they can if they have to go down. Hey, the rest of the people of the world HATE our arrogant regime’s guts…not we the people…yet. Give ‘em time though…let Dubbya invade the next, “terrorist country”, on his list. See what happens. If the world is not at this very moment galvanizing almost subconsciously to counteract, using any means available to them, then, after GW sends his coerced volunteers into another genocidal mission…well, he and his henchmen just might find themselves in a corner they hadn’t planned on. Then all itchy fingers will be ready to push the last-resort buttons because they’ll know without a shadow of doubt that Dubbya won’t hesitate a minute to press his buttons. That’s what all of this is REALLY coming to, you idiots now OCCUPYING Washington! What the hell will plausible deniability matter then, you fake, pseudo-cowboys?
Posted by Dom on Apr 5, 2003 at 2:05 PM
Saudi Media Blast Saddam
Staff Writer
RIYADH, 6 April 2003
Posted by Hmmmm on Apr 5, 2003 at 2:28 PM
A peacenik’s Creed:
I don’t support this war. I don’t support Saddam, or any ruthless dictator. I don’t support political assassination as a strategic foreign policy. I don’t support unprovoked “pre-emptive” attacks, even on a country with a “bad man” at the helm. I don’t support the long-term nuclear contaminating a foreign country with depleted uranium. I don’t support killing civilians, “our” troops, or the young boys of a non-voluntary, conscript army in another country. I don’t support “Hitler comparisons” as a rhetorical strategy to demonize an opponent. I don’t support disbanding or ignoring the UN, an organization born out of war, whose mandate was to promote peace. I don’t support media complicity in questionable government policy. I don’t support name-calling and the disintegration of rational dialogue between dissenting voices. I don’t support global imperialism in the name of “global democracy”. I don’t support a state of “perpetual war” in the name of “combatting terror”. I don’t support “honouring the dead” by increasing the body count. I don’t support suspensions of human rights in countries founded on those same principles.
I DO support critical dialogue. I support an ongoing quest for truth. I support basic human rights. I support helping people who ASK for help, rather than assuming I know what is “good for them”. I support sharing material wealth and time-resources with those less privileged than I. I support peace and diplomacy. I support taking ownership of the physical, environmental, and moral effects of one’s lifestyle. I support a climate where dissent is not seen as ‘unpatriotic,’ but a foundational legacy of free countries. I support people who can, with dignity, admit they have been wrong. I support examining and addressing international grievances against my country’s foreign policy. I support imagination and creativity, and eschew following ‘the party line’, simply because it is ‘the party line’. I support the moral imperative of those who are educated and passionate to assist in educating others. I support a posture of humility, where I admit I do not have all of the answers, and may, in fact be wrong.
Posted by Tim on Apr 5, 2003 at 4:23 PM
Thanks for this story; we were all cheering at home when Moore spoke, and I called my younger son in Cambridge, where he and his friends were all yelling with joy. You GO, Michael, you sure do speak for me.
Posted by Julie McKenna on Apr 5, 2003 at 4:29 PM
Sam, sounds like you’re the one who’s full of hate.
“Stupid Mick”.
You base your “opinion” that the majority of Americans are for this war on what fact?
You’re wrong. Bush is evil. You’re wrong and in the long run, you know it and we are all right.
You’re lucky you aren’t here right now with your fucking Mick comment because you’d lose a few teeth you fuck!
Posted by neil on Apr 5, 2003 at 4:38 PM
Browsing the resposes to the article i found this one “MM should be taken out and shot” near the top. This comment is basically proving MM right, in all that Bowling for Columbine stands for. Ignorant people like he or she who posted that comment should learn to think before making a fool of themselves. As for everyone else who has bashed Michael Moore and actually knows what they are talking about, then good for you, you are most certainly entitled to your own opinion. I ask you though, where does that opinion come from? The media. The media and the fear that it installs in the minds of many. Great speech Michael Moore, and many share your views.
Posted by PoliticalZombie on Apr 5, 2003 at 4:48 PM
Michael Moore may just have rescued some of America’s reputation in the eyes of the world.
Posted by Stephen on Apr 5, 2003 at 5:11 PM
mainstream media sure has done good job turning american people into american sheeple. But for those sheeple who bad mouth michael moore for openly expressing his political beliefs are on their way to escaping the wolves.
Posted by neto on Apr 5, 2003 at 6:49 PM
Liloan,
The life just returned to this forum. Hope my friends have read your post as well.
Thank you!
Posted by Red on Apr 5, 2003 at 7:22 PM
Liloanstitch,
Respectfully, what proof do you have of your statements or are they just opinions?
My brother was murdered with a baseball bat and I feel handguns are still causing blood to flow in the streets—my personal opinion. Handguns laws, yes. Abolishment, no.
The cops here in Boise are responsible for 80% of the hommicide deaths by firearms in seven or the eight shootings in the past six year. Goddamn cowboys. Five of these shoots were explained away as being, “the vicitim was suicidal.”
Sometimes I don’t know which is worse. When you have people that can settle things without a gun, it’s a sign of a maturing, developing country.
The rate we’re going, cops and criminals is definitely backwards, especially when our fascists leaders are the worst examples.
Posted by neil on Apr 5, 2003 at 8:03 PM
All of this obsessing over whether Michael Moore’s film is “true” or not puzzles me.
He made a MOVIE. In its “form”, it most closely resembled the(somewhat artificial) category the Academy calls “documentary.”
THAT was the category THEY put it in. And then they gave it the award.
The “conventions” of the documentary genre have as much to do with the use of narration, interviews, and on-site filming, as they do with “truth claims.” Perhaps if there were a category for “mockumentary,” they would have put “Bowling for Columbine” there…but no such category exists.
Is DaVinci’s painting, “the Mona Lisa” TRUE? The question doesn’t make sense, does it? That’s because ART is about REPRESENTATION.
Moore paints with the palate of the world, and to be sure, he takes liberties in realizing his vision.
When Disney makes an animated movie called “the last rainforest,” where one of their agendas is to put forward the thesis that “bulldozing greenery isn’t always cool,” do people start yelling and screaming about how “animals can’t really talk,” and therefore the whole rainforest thesis is bunk?
Why are the people who are so “outraged” and indignant about Moore’s documentary stretching the truth not EQUALLY up in arms about the mess of lies we’re sold as “the NEWS?”
Truth is largely in the eye of the beholder. If I have the critical awareness and imagination necessary, I can extract “truth” even from our corrupted News these days.
Posted by Tim on Apr 5, 2003 at 10:18 PM
Thank you, In These Times, for a fresh perspective on the Oscar night: it was a relief to find. To Mr. Moore, I agree With Richard From Toronto; If you ever decide on a trip, we would be greatly honoured to have you here in Canada. To all who posted, thank you for the variety of opinions, even if some were less than savoury. My especial thanks to Tom from Colorado for his calm and rational arguments for an opinion that has taken a great deal of critisim in the alternative media, and to all those who responded to him in a similar manner. America is going through a very dark time now, and I pray that peace and good sense will ultimately prevail.
I do have a few questions:
1) why is it so wrong to be liberal in the US?
2) why is it necessary to disparage a person’s character, image, looks, or other intangibles for the sake of a personal opinion? Those who react so denegrate their own argument, do they not?
3) Once this war is over, what (or who) is next?
Let true peace begin here. It begins with openness, rational debate, and willingness to listen to another.
“I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it.”
Voltaire
Peace to all, and good sense return soon
Posted by Shadowstormcrow on Apr 5, 2003 at 10:40 PM
Hey, Lilo whatever…You can quote your gun-lobby skewed publication statistics. They do not reflect the truth. Statistics are, as is patriotism, the last refuge of scoundrels. The color of your skin is the real determining factor in how firearms are used and who feels safer bearing them from their own vantage point. To you, all persons who’ve been convicted are undoubtedly guilty. But the truth is that the penal-law enforcement-prosecutorial judirical complex does not care about a person’s guilt or innocence. They just need bodies to fill their ever-expanding prison space being developed in lieu of affordable housing, health care and a plethora of other more people-oriented social programs. If you add the outlay of taxpayer dollars which is dedicated to military to the law-enforcement, security state, secret agency, penal constructions outlays, there’s not much left to even pave your roads properly, let alone invest people’s money on people. The judicial-prosecutorial-law enforcement system only wants to WIN it’s cases. They don’t care if the real criminal is still at large as long as their image is enhanced by the speedy capture, conviction and incarceration of the most easily detested and impoverished citizen. Their chances of victory are raised in direct proportion to the fear any accused can arouse in a jury. The poorer and therefore less able to present a, “respectable”, exterior is the accused, the more readily is he perceived to be a priori-guilty. And thn you speak of witnesses. Just one or two witnesses can help convict one of those I speak of. If that is acceptable, then, flying saucers, alien abduction, and all the, “fringe”, testimonies of millions of witnesses, if tested in a court of so-called LAW would be more than enough to prove beyond a doubt that extraterrestrials are real. So, keep your firearms and delude yourself about your security. When you’re being, “beamed up”, into some alien craft…let me know how effective your, “peice”, proved to be. Otherwise, tune into WBAI.org and listen to what real people are all about. Becoming a decent human being seems to be the most difficult acheivement possible these days. You are living-dead proof of this maxim.
Posted by Dom on Apr 5, 2003 at 10:47 PM
>>>Tom from Denver, loving America as much as ever and offended by some of the crap on this site as much as ever.>>>
Well Tom, I didn
Posted by linda z on Apr 5, 2003 at 10:52 PM
Hey, anonymous Mr. America, that old, “America, love it or leave it”, crap just doesn’t wash anymore. America is not about idiots like yourself who cannot even follow simple instructions unless they are orders from the Fascist morons who are destroying the country I love. But I’m just wasting my time responding to your obviously limited abilities to discern the difference between trying to change what’s wrong with one’s country, (to hopefully get it back on the right track), and to blindly accept it’s decomposition and destruction without at least loving it enough to guide it in it’s time of troubles. You don’t even realize that your favorite song, most likely, “God Bless America”, exhorts all citizens to not only, “stand beside her”, but especially, to, “guide her through the night with the light from above”. Calling me a punk and telling me to get out only demonstrates just how much YOU despise this country. Just how anti-American you are that you’d allow this great land and the diversity of it’s wonderful people to sink into the stinking quicksand of an obviously DEATH oriented bunch of Fascists who’ve never had to put on a uniform, as you probably never have, in hopes that you were, indeed defending Freedom and Democracy. People like you will never learn that when it comes to a great nation, the worst form of alleged expressions of love are those which don’t mind watching as the loved-one destroys herself through some of her people’s sick ideas concerning, “The National Interest”, and destructive environmental agendas mean in REAL life. So, call me what you will and tell me where to go. Water off a duck’s back, fool. Maybe you’d change your tune if you were reincarnated as one of the cormorants, sea otters, and other innumerable species whose innocent bodies were exterminated by the thousands as a result of oil spills such as the Exxon Valez. At that time, George I also thought it was in the, “National Interest”, that the pipeline remain open and to hell with that environmental disaster or any future, inevitable ones our rubber-stamp media doesn’t even bother tellings us about anymore.
Posted by Dom on Apr 5, 2003 at 11:40 PM
You rock, Dom!
One of the reasons NYC and it’s burroughs are one of the most diverse places in the world.
Keep up the good fight, brutha!
Posted by neil on Apr 6, 2003 at 1:06 AM
Tom from Denver, you are the reason peope tell me they hate Denver when they move to Idaho.
I love my country, and I want to see it progress towards peace, freedom, diversity and prosperity. Oh, what a horrible thing. You “bleeding heart” liberals! You know who else had a bleeding heart? Jesus.
The people in power now want to reverse affirmative action, eliminate Title 9, drill for oil in wildlife refuges. Oh, and cover up 9/11 by pinning it on Sadaam when Saudi Arabia is the country that really has been launching attacks on us for 10 years. Forgot about that one!
And you don’t seem to care about that. Go, Rah! Screw civil rights! Screw those who oppose my opinion!
Sounds like YOU don’t love your country.
What the powers that be want to say is “Let’s keep the niggers down, lets kill the towel-heads, keep bitches bare-foot and pregnant, and play golf. Of course we won’t SAY that, we’re supposed to be religious.
All the civil rights protests of the 60’s—were you throwing bottles at them? Don’t like people standing up an injustice? Then YOU move. You move to one of these nations we’re supposed to be liberating and make things better.
I’ll stay on the homefront speaking out against people like you who can’t come up with anything more intelligent for an argument than get out. YOU get out. This country would be far, far, far, far, better off without narrow-minded people like you.
Posted by neil on Apr 6, 2003 at 1:31 AM
FIGHT PATRIOTISM!
-Peace
Posted by TC on Apr 6, 2003 at 2:17 AM
“Having examined crime statistics from Denmark and the U.S., I find that the homicide rate for 2001 is 5.61 per 100,000 people in the U.S. It is 3.72/100,000 in Denmark. In previous years, it was even closer. You are slightly safer from homicide in Denmark, but hardly a difference that would prove higher gun ownership rates in the U.S. are causing blood to flow in the streets as MM would have you believe.
The total crime rate in Denmark is more than twice that of the U.S. Now someone could probably make a “documentary” using this statistic and leaving out others, maybe a few scenes that show Danish prisons overflowing (this could be totally fabricated according to M.M.‘s method) to try to make the point that Denmark is an outlaw society. I would hope that if someone pointed out to me that the scene with the Danish prisons was fabricated and that a lot of other statistics were left out that would show that the greater crime rate in Denmark is due to a lot of lesser crimes, I would realize that I’d been had, no matter what my preconceived notions about Denmark were.”
And yet the sun rises. Our prisons are in fact overflowing, but our solution is NOT to instigate a “3 strikes you’re out law”. That law has to be Clintons biggest blunder, though I’m sure you’ll disagree. The cost of inmates and their rehabilitation is the issue, not how many inmates me stuff into the prisons. Oh and on our murder rate…sure we have 5 per 100000 but that is all we have at all. you have 10000 per 280.000.000 in handguns alone. That’s 1 per 28.000 mister in handguns alone, so whoah. Your streets are way safer. And speaking on misrepresentation, our police homocide division have a near 100 % rate of finding the actual murderer. Last year had 2 cases still open, but both were solved this year, which makes 2002 a 100 % year. Can you beat that per chance? I’ll take my increased burglaries over your 1:28.000 handgun slayings any day of the week, and I think a lot of your fellow americans would too. They just don’t have the opportunity.
Martin Hansen.
P.S. And you really confirmed my worst suspicions, you were commenting on a film you haven’t even seen. What was it I wrote? Intellectual dishonesty, it really is you.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 6, 2003 at 3:24 AM
Moore has been an outspoken defender of the little people for decades. I applaud his stance, although I do not always agree with his views.
I encourage people to see his movies and other works before criticizing him. Doing otherwise can only be considered prejudice.
Bowling for Columbine is his best work to date, so start there and work backwards.
I think someone used the term “limosine liberal”. I’d never heard that, but find it funny. I tend to think of myself as a Econo Car Conservative. I’m all for Conservatism.
Conserve our resources, money, health, and rights. Pro-firearm, pro-death penalty, pro-choice and pro-1st amendment.
I don’t think you can lump all of Moore’s supporters into one catergory. What you can do is slander and cast aspertions at people, and one visible fat man in particular that would stand in solidarity with you if you needed it.
The Bush’s of the world are not going to heed any cry for help you may issue unless it helps to line their pockets. Unless you have a PAC you aren’t even on GW’s radar.
GW is a Christian right? Did Jesus wage war against his foes? Think about it.
Bush-Bin Laden link explored:
http://emperors-clothes.com/news/bushladen.htm
If your support the troops, put your money where your mouth is:
http://fisherhouse.org/
A guy said something about Bush’s Grades… here’s Yale on that:
http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=2636
Article about how long ago this thing was planned:
http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/2003/01/27/news/local/5025024.htm
And finally a quote:
“Every society honors its live conformists and its dead troublemakers.”
-Mignon McLaughlin
Peace
Posted by EmCee on Apr 6, 2003 at 4:47 AM
I can’t believe someone just accused Bush of being responsible for 9/11. (Linda Z)
I am out of here for good.
You’re all a bunch of dipshits!
Posted by mark on Apr 6, 2003 at 8:42 AM
I am just curious as to how old Neil from Boise is since he spoke on the Civil Rights movement.
I grew up in the south in the early sixties & can tell you that violence was on both sides or haven’t you ever heard of the Black Panther’s?
Perhaps we need a new forum since this one is running amouk with half truths that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Posted by Red on Apr 6, 2003 at 8:47 AM
SAVE 53% OFFTHE NEWSSTAND PRICE!
Reader Comments
I love Michael Moore. It was so refreshing to see his speech and watch his movie. Watching the barbarians invade Iraq has left ill feelings towards the American People. George Bush is the antichrist to a modern civilized world and I am shocked and in awe that the USA public cannot see through the plainly visible veil of hypocricy that he portrays to the world. I wonder if George Bush is afraid of the children of Iraq? My bet is that he is. The USA has accomplished nothing with this war other than perfecting the recipe for a terrorist. Way to go Bush!!
Shame on all the people denouncing Mr. Moore. He is up there because he has the guts to help expose our democracy of hypocrisy. This is not about right or left but about the truth. I just feel bad that some my fellow Americans are to dumb to realize or ignorant to believe what is really going on. If our founding fathers would of kissed King Georges(The old king in England for you inbreds) ass the way you all kiss Bush’s there we’d all speak Oxford English. Our country is based on freedom of speech and ideals. You don’t have to like M.M. but he is defending our country. I am a veteran who believes in liberty. Shame on the sheep that won’t let the shepard defend them from the wolves.
Well done, its a pity there are so few in the US like Michael Moore
we stand beside you and object to this war.
The poor suffer again.
Follow the money, follow the oil, follow the men to will make all the dosh on this war.
(from ongoin e-mail discussion):
I’ll very BRIEFLY address the UN, but I don’t think the UN is really the
heart of the issue here. It doesn’t make too much sense for me to “waste
air” on this institution when you’ve already expressed that, in your
opinion, it has “outlived its usefulness.”
However… I WILL mention a few things:
Surely you didn’t bring up the issue of the Soviet Union and Russia’s use of
the “veto” without expecting me to counter with the USA’s use of the veto?
The USA leaves all other UN countries in the DUST when it comes to using its
veto! HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS of resolutions have been unilaterally
defeated!
(http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html)
(of course, this won’t bother you if you’ve felt that the UN was not a
meaningful institution in the first place…)
There was a great paper written by Grace Roosevelt on the dawning of the
UN… If you have the time, I would definitely recommend it:
(http://www.globalpolicy.org/resource/unhist/jinx1.htm) Her thesis, in a
nutshell, is that the UN exists as a forum where the ideals of “pacifism”
and “just war theory” can converse with one another(much as the two of US
have been doing!). In her own words:
“Although the two traditions of thought evolved along quite separate paths,
a logical tie unites them. For without an overarching governing body,
international law becomes unenforceable; and without a mandate to develop
and enforce international law, any institution set up to promote peace
remains ineffective. The challenge for the future is thus to realize in
practice the underlying unity of the two ideals. Pacifism and legalism are
complementary rather than contradictory aims; political history teaches that
peace can be achieved only when the rule of force is replaced by the rule of
law.”
If the UN is “debunked,” as you seem to suggest (and many in the world feel
that this present conflict WILL, indeed, emasculate, if not kill it)...then
that is an alarming portent. Again drawing on Roosevelt, “after the demise
of the well-intended League of Nations, World War II followed closely in its
wake.”
(continued)
(continued)
Personally, I don’t believe that your government ever entertained UN
negotiations with a mind to abandoning a military “solution.” UN inspectors
found NOTHING… Maybe they were inept. -OR- Maybe there was nothing to
find… (Despite the ongoing rhetoric that chemical weapons will be used at
any moment, we haven’t actually SEEN any yet, have we? Additionally,
American News coverage claiming that “SCUD” missiles(exceeding the allowable
range for Iraq) were fired on Kuwait has been defunct as either
ill-informed, or downright deceptive:
http://www.fair.org/activism/scuds.html )
RECALL that this entire war is SUPPOSED to be about Saddam’s “Weapons of
Mass Destruction,” right? I mean, that was the position of your President,
anyway, going in… Somewhere along the line, though, the rhetoric has
shifted (several times, actually).. For a while, the talk became
“Elimination of Saddam” (48-hour ultimatum)... Then, it became regime
change(entire Baath Party)... Lately, the only justification has been
“jingoism” invoking words like “operation Iraqi Freedom”... WHAT? I don’t
get it. What does Iraqi freedom have to do with Iraqi weapons of mass
destruction?
So if “the plan” was always regime change, why wasn’t that the proposal to
the UN? I guess it wouldn’t have sounded quite as good if the resolution
had read: “While Iraq poses no immediate threat, we don’t like Saddam
Hussein and wish to bomb his country and remove him by force.”
Let’s call a spade a spade… This war is a PRE-EMPTIVE strike against a
country on the basis of un-founded hearsay that the country may, at some
point in the future, pose a threat.
You have children… When you’re teaching them appropriate “playground
demeanor,” do you tell them: “Now if you see someone who looks sort-of
shifty and bad…and you KNOW that person has a history of violence…Kick
the crap out of them, before they have a chance to hurt you!” (?)
Somehow I doubt it.
As I said, though, I don’t think this is primarily about the UN, anyway…
I’m really more interested in the media angle, since if our discussion is to
be meaningful at all about these things, we need to have access to TRUTH,
and the media is our primary source of information.
Reflecting on Human Nature
I remember back in grade school… Now and then there’d be a rumour of a fight…
Inevitably, at the appointed time, throngs of students would converge at the designated location, and “ring” the combatants with a solid wall of flesh. The wary adversaries in the circle’s centre would walk around looking at each other—not certain if they wanted to follow through with the fight—but knowing that pride was on the line.
At that point, the chorus would start: “Fight!...Fight!...Fight!...Fight!” (I don’t know why, but it never really seemed like anyone in the crowd was campaigning for the fight to NOT happen)
The chanting would swell as the first punches landed…the circle would tighten the moment one combatant ended up on the ground…
In my experience, these fights were resolved in one of two ways. Either:
1) A group of teachers, the police, etc., would intervene, disperse the crowd, and pull the “winner” off of the bloodied student on the ground.
2) One student would beat the other so thoroughly that the “crowd” would begin to feel badly for supporting such violence. The cheering would lose some of its intensity, and a few conscientious students would separate the combatants(to the jeers of a vocal minority).
I’m sure glad those ruthless days are behind us… That as adults, we’ve learned to control our bloodlust…
(Aside: A recent report at a “coalition against the war on Iraq” meeting here in Winnipeg revealed that funding from south-of-the border is going toward “Pro War” rallies: Circles of placard-waving “fans” chanting “Fight…Fight…Fight…”)
I’m sure a lot of those booing Michael have not seen his movies or read any of his books. He is an amazing man who is speaking out against the Captialist Nature of Society. He is intelligent, does his homework and uses his freedom of speech to say more than “MM should be taken out”(posted earlier).
I’m surprised to see how ignorant some of these previous posts have been. I’m also surprised that a lot of people do not know how long Moore has been out there for, working hard to make sure everyone knows what is really going on with the government, corporations, etc. I guess my point it that those who have made their ignorant relpies should read some of Moore’s books or articles and if you’re not a reader, go watch some of his documentaries! Until then, think of something somewhat intelligent to say if you “have” to bash Moore.
So Tim
Let’s just, for a moment take the war out of this discussion.
Do you think when Saddam gassed the Kurds & then bulldozed their towns as if they never existed that the UN should have stepped in & called for his immediate removal?
Do you believe that Saddam should be left alone to carry on his reign of terror?
Since 1979 he has been responsible for over 2 million deaths. HORRIBLE, TORTUROUS DEATHS. Is that okay with you? Are you one of those “if it doesn’t affect me then why should I care” people?
I have heard & read lots on why some people are against this war but I haven’t heard anyone offering any solutions other than to ramble on about sanctions & freezing, things that obviously have not worked.
Just for the record I don’t like this war either but I, like many others, don’t know what else we ( they, you, us) could have done.
If you have some insight I would like to hear it.
Malea from California,
A PRESIDENT WITH MORALS??? Are you STUPID??!!!!!!!!!
Bush’s own pastor said this war is wrong, Jimmy Carter, one of the greatest men the last 100 years said this war is wrong, Nelson Mandella, our modern day Martin Luther King, said it’s wrong, the Pope said it’s wrong.
Are you saying these men are WRONG and that Bush is right? Are you that blind and ignorant????
A man who went AWOL, was a crack addict, alcoholic, failed businesses, HE’S A MORAL MAN??
Read up (if you can read) on this man from all sources, and you’ll see his “born again Christianity” is nothing but a farce and just leads the self-righteous, like your pious self into goose-stepping in line. Hitler was a Christian, remember that.
Don’t you know daddy Bush gave Saddam chemical weapons to fight Iran? Don’t you know he has NO TIES to 9-11 because all but one of the hijackers were Saudi’s (but we can’t go after Saudi Arabia—they’ll cut off our oil). Don’t you know why the fighting is so intense is because these troops know the US has no legitimate cause to attack and that’s why so many of our soldiers are being murdered at the hands of that murdered Gen. Tommy Franks, that muderer George Bush and the murdered Donald Rumsfeld. Now, where I come from murder is a sin.
God, save me from the “good people.” Go spew your ignorant remarks on FOX Nazi news.
Red,
What are your sources? Let’s see them. Oh, wait, are these the “phanton reports” like the uncle Tom Collin Powell’s, the one’s Blix shot down.
Seems like this war was brought to you by and orchestrated by advertising agencies.
“Mr. Moore might consider moving to France!!!!!”
I agree.
He could have a great interview with one Richard Perle getting a tan in his villa in Provence.
Gee Neil!
What an angry man you are! Your posts are full of hate towards anyone that disagrees with you.
Seems to me that is the same “mentality” that got us into this war if I choose to believe your take on all this.
Red:
I’m currently a teacher, with two new immigrants (Iraqi Kurds) in one of my classes(They were not allowed to immigrate into the USA).
These young kids, with relatives in Halabja (the town Saddam gassed in 1988—while we were “buddies” with him—using weapons provided by us), have tremendous hope that the current US-led offensive on Iraq will result in the re-establishment of Kurdistan…
They are extremely hopeful that THIS time, when the US promises to support them, they will not AGAIN be left hanging…(as both they and the Shiia population were left hanging back in 1991)
I don’t have the heart to tell them that Rumsfeld has stressed in the past week that Iraq will retain all of its present borders, following the ‘war’. (Since this would crush the hope of their own country… a hope fostered by US ‘half-promises’ in past years)
You ARE right, though… Saddam has done some pretty bad stuff… He dropped a lot of leaflets on the Kurds, telling them to leave their homes, and then he bombed them, killing 3,000 people. Pretty unthinkable, eh?
As far as 2,000,000 dead… Could you give me a breakdown of how many of those 2 million have died as a result of starvation and disease following “Gulf War I” and subsequent sanctions?
People love to say that Michael Moore just had his 15 minutes of fame, and now he’ll be done - they have no idea. He’s already been extremely successful for about 10 years - he made two documentaries prior to Bowling for Columbine that were both big box office successes (esp. for documentaries). He’s done two series’ of tv shows, multiple popular music videos, and his book, “Stupid White Men,” has been #1 on the bestseller list for something like 51 weeks. Think again if you think Moore is leaving soon, morons.
Mr. Moore is delusional, and IN THESE TIMES irresponsible if they report that the booing on Oscar night was from a couple of stagehands. My husband and daughter were seated in the middle of the main floor and reported that it was all around them and it was loud.
You guys love him so much…You’ve stopped short of getting on your knees and licking Michael Moore’s balls?
“You guys are stupid if you believe this story, that was not stage hands!!! GIVE ME A BREAK, if that was the case then every award would be like that. Only FUCKING FOOLS would believe that, Moore is a fat git ugly and stupid and he was rightfully booed for his boorish and rude rant. shame on Juel for passing this crap, you idiots
Posted by: Stupid liberals on 3.25.03 | 2:50 pm from myass”
I love to see that when people no nothing of what they are talking about, harsh comments and horrendous english is used. People should first try reading informative sources before they comment and then maybe take another English Class, so that they can word themselves better.
I don’t know what exactly happened at the Academy Awards because I wasn’t there. But from this report, it would be believable that this is the truth.
As for all the other comments about the war, the government, etc. there is no use trying to tell the stupid people in this country the truth and the facts. They don’t want to hear it, because they’d rather be watching who won on American Idol.
-Pat Collins
P.S. The people who call other Americans “Anti-American”, are actually being anti-american themselves by denying the opionion and view of the person in question.
All Americans have the constitutional right to express themselves. Read the Bill of Rights and maybe understand it before you talk trash.
When are you foreigners going to learn? When a dictator/mass murderer is threatening our country, we’re not going to court a bunch of pussies (aka France) just to get permission to defend ourselves. Sorry, but the UN is nothing but a debating club and we’re not going to be hamstrung by nations whose economy relies on the Iraqi oil trade: GERMANY, FRANCE, and RUSSIA. And to all the Canadians that are bitching and moaning about this war, get used to countries doing things without your approval, because no one gives a damn about what you think.
I don’t mean to put you on hold. I was looking forward to our debate as I have read your posts & you seem to be one of the more level headed folks out there.
I will be back tonight around 9:00 pacific time.
Hope to speak with you then.
Peace
Forgot to mention the pre. post is for Tim from Winnipeg.
Yes, Hmmmmm, I’m full of hate for people who say we, the anti-war people are wrong, full of it, tell us to move to France.
I don’t ususally flame people because I don’t like stooping to the right-wing tactics of the supposedly “good” people.
In my view, if Christ were here, he’d be on our side—the anti-war protestors. We’re trying to do something with our letters to senators, peace marches, etc.
When we have a forum we can talk to each other and have people say we’re “candy-ass liberals who should move to France” it gets a little old. Yes, I hate that.
I haven’t used language like “go lick MM’s balls”, etc. Once in awhile I use the F word.
To me, the greater crime than Bush’s bloody, illegal war is all of you who go along with it. Yes, this blood is on your hands. It’s on your hands. It’s on your hands.
If the truth sounds hateful, then I guess the truth hurts.
We have enough wannabe cookie-cutter “media” people cutting us down without having the so-called “good and righteous” people coming on to our alternative view forum calling us names. Isn’t Conservative radio enough? Isn’t Fox news enough.
I say again, get lost.
akh, I don’t believe your story about the Oscars for one minute.
Oh, and Hmmmm, the mentality that got us into this war was GREED, which is a sin, by the way.
Red: If you like, Tom (from Denver) Spike (from Vancouver) and I are carrying on this conversation via e-mail.
Admittedly, I miss the regular barrage of “...to all the Canadians that are bitching and moaning about this war, get used to countries doing things without your approval, because no one gives a damn about what you think..,” etc.,(and other such insightful arguments), but hey…
I’m off for supper with my neighbour’s family. I look forward to continuing this tonight, if you’re around…
Thanks for this great coverage that so many have chosen to ignore or downplay. I went to Boycott Hollywood’s site to see who is listed. Many of my all time favorite actors, directors, etc. I know have my own list. My list of those people I want to make sure to support! Thanks.
Well when u got ut president giving speeches like that and the bias media (fox news is a complete joke) they are going to have some influence. Ppl need to hear and see the truth!
what a brillant article, atleast someone aint brain washed by US media/govt. we need to see more of this and micheal moore has some brillant facts which are terrifying to the bush lot.
MM is not the most tactful orator, but that’s one of his appeals, he goes straight to the point.
To all of you saying “proud to be an american”,“A true american” etc.
What exactly is there to be proud of?
Sam wrote, “When are you foreigners going to learn? ...because no one gives a damn about what you think.’
If that is indeed your attitude which you suggest is also representative of americans, you are infinitely worse than ignorant.
I’m glad a lot of people don’t share your views. If you really want isolation go lock yourself in your room and stay there in front of your idiot box.
Some old friends of mine saw and heard you at the Riverside Baptist Church, Mike. They told me that you and the other brilliant speakers who are not fooled by this tyrannical cancer at our helm galvanized them into action and struck deep chords in their souls. The TRUTH does that to people who do not accept the fascist pap that’s spoon-fed them. These are discerning, wise people who know they need be ever vigilant of the powers that be if they hope to maintain their liberties and rights; who understand they must be ever questioning of the accepted fables authoritarian types attempt to shove down their throats. I wish I’d been there. The truth to these people is not NOT, as you know. The truth is awful to those who, despite history’s lessons refuse to believe their leaders are the MONSTERS they insist, (upon penalty of marginalization or incarceration), you are heretofore ordered to believe they are! Some contributors to this site simply REFUSE to question those they hold in such esteem. It is those who I hold in esteem who I question most. As Nietsche said…“It is not the courage of my convinctions but rather the courage to change my convictions”.
Sorry, made another typo…I meant to say that the TRUTH is NOT AWFUL to HONEST people. The TRUTH is AWFUL only to those bind leading the blind who’ll one day find THEMSELVES wishing they had faced the TRUTH. Do they think they’ll get a cushy job or some kind of immunity for braying along with the WARMONGERS? Read, “The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich”, if this is what you believe. You’ll find therein what eventually happend to almost all those who thought they had it made by attempting to out-nazifiying Hitler in order to score bigtime lickspittle points with him. Maybe then YOU will see just HOW AWFUL the TRUTH can be. Instead of parroting verbatim the mainstream media hype…try opening your eyes to what’s going on in the REAL world around you. If you keep your eyes open and your ears tuned long enough…funny, but your nose will be most affected becaue you will, despite your BUSH-colored spectacles…be overwhelmed by the STINK of societal decay all around you.
Poor Melea…thinks sex is a whole lot more evil than devestating a weak country. Thinks every news outlet and magazine she’s grown up to trust just wouldn’t lie to her. Thinks that 9/11 had nothing to do with a complicit governmental roguery of the vilest kind. Thinks her Bush baby didn’t steal the election with the help of his brother Jeb and the five of nine supreme bootlickers. Just what does she base her Polyanna/twisted sister outlook upon? May the, “magic bullet theory”, haunt your private little fudamentalist nightmares!
Karine from Paris: Do you really expect the US or any other country to pay heed to FRANCE in international affairs? You won’t even defend your own country, so we don’t expect you to agree with us when we defend ours. The fact of the matter is that Saddam is rearming in violation of a 12 year old truce and the coalition in Iraq are the only countries that have the brass to do anything about it. So you Swedes, Germans, Belgians, Canadians, Frenchmen, Italians and whoever else can bitch all you want about it, but it doesn’t concern you. Oh, I take that back, it does concern France, Germany, and the other countries who buy oil from Iraq.
Please Mr. Cheney do not insult my intelligence with espousing your profound belief that the Iraqi people would accept our military with open arms, flowers and the sobriquet title of ‘liberators’.
Also stop using the term ‘surgical’ bombing. Using a medical metaphor for destroying people’s lives and livelihoods is nauseating.
A fact: Dick Cheney vehemently tried to get congress to limit the investigation into 9/11.
A fact: Unocal {Union Oil of California} tried to train Taliban members in the occupation of pipe construction.
A fact: One of the key candidates the Bush administration is looking at to replace Saddam is a General who was responsible for gassing the Kurds in ‘88
I want to ask these people who are for this war and believe we are liberating Iraq something.
Were you as indignant over China’s Tianamen Square incident as you were over the Gassing the Kurds?
We renewed China’s most favored trading status after that. Quite appalling.
George
Rock on Michael Moore!
NEVER BEFORE HAVE WE LIVED IN TIMES SUCH AS THESE! These are not the days of honest journalism as when a younger Walter Cronkite was active. The current media for whatever reason (FEAR?)cover for an imposter president who is the king of lies!
I
(continued)
Worse, it appears that at least James Woolsey, a former CIA Director thinks that we are in the midst of World War IV. Apparently, we are not only after Al Qaeda and Iraq, but we should be preparing ourselves to take on Syria and Iran as well as striking fear into the hearts of Mubarek and Saudi princes.
Well, the slaughter’s almost over over there. Wonder how many years before the whole TRUTH about the WHY and WHO can be wrested by THE PEOPLE from the clandestine, redacted, missing, fabricated, destroyed documentation will surface? You Europeans are about to find out the REAL motivations of your governments for you too have been duped. Governments don’t rule anymore, anyone who has half a brain can see what rules THE NEW WORLD ORDER. The United States government is just the Hit man for the OZes behind the veils of darkness. Soon all the rest of your governments, as proxy frontmen for the OZes, will be shoving each other for a spot at the bloody trough that was Iraq. More war is coming, and coming, and coming. What will we all do when it becomes obvious that every nation was after, “a peice of the action”? Why, right now, in sumptuously appointed drawing rooms of palaces the hidden ones are carving out the peices of Iraq, their mouths a-salivatin’ and their fingers a-tremble with anticipation for the next Iraq-ocity. You and me here fightin’ one another with bitter, divisive words are merely a humorous diverson for such as these. Have you ever watched as Mike Moore and his crew would attempt to get to the bottom of some odious, hidden machination of some of these Global Conglomerates on his, “The Awful Truth”, presentations? The best he was ever able to expose was the reality of guilt by continual denial and secrecy. If only he had subpoena powers to make those he attempted to expose actually reveal, in a court of law, (if there are any honest ones remaining), who and what they were really all about behind the P.R. and disinformation! But then, I’d bet he too would become just another Oswald-ed, easily vilified by revisionist historians scapegoat. Better he should go on just humbly and politely busting balls. That in itself confirmed so much I had to live with almost alone for so long. Thanks for opening some eyes, Mike. You do not labor in vain, good sir, for the day WILL dawn when what is and was only an ideal is finally created by, as Abe Lincoln said, “The better Angels in Man”.
Dom:
I’m interested in what you have to say on this site, but I find your massive blocks of text nearly impossible to read…
Would you mind trying to separate some of your thoughts into paragraphs? (sorry…that’s the teacher in me talking)
Dom from Strong Island,
It is obvious that you are much better at insulting people who don’t share your views than you are at presenting a fact-based argument.
It is also readily apparent that you hate the country that you are living in. Why don’t you just go live somewhere else? They also drive on the right side of the road in France. If you aren’t willing to do that, then do the right thing and VOTE next time.
Don’t be such a jerk to the other people on this site who don’t share your ignorant bile. Don’t be a punk.
I watched the Oscars and it was far more than a few stage hands booing. Typical of a liberal rag to distort the truth. I believe that Michael Moore hates white American men because he is such a poor excuse for a man himself. No doubt in my mind that he has a little penis and is impotent, this brings out alot of anger in him. He is so worried about poor people, perhaps he should live on 50g a year and give the rest of his money away, then he can lecture the rest of us. Also as far as the war goes, I say bombs away!
Hi Tim:
First of all let me stress that I don’t believe sanctions work & for the very reason you stated. Only the poor get poorer & the rich continue to strive.
And secondly, please don’t count on Mr. Rumsfield’s plan for post war Iraq. I have a feeling that in the end Colin Powell’s plan for a U.N. backed rebuilding will prevail.
As for your immigrant students… I feel badly that the innocent always suffer because of the bad but I have to tell you that I do look at people differently since 9/11. Not that I would ever be rude but I do understand that feeling of the unknown, that uncertainty, that questioning of everyone that is different. I can’t imagine being in charge of the safety of 280,000,000 people & while I know that it doesn’t seem fair I appreciate that my gov’t is working hard to screen applicants seeking refuge in my country & if a few innocents get turned down, oh well! There is always Canada.
A little personal info. I am an American living in BC, Canada, with my Canadian husband & appreciate hearing your point of view. The e-mail idea is a good one.
Michael Moore should be applauded for what he did! And I hope that anyone reading this from a foreign country realizes that not all Americans are stupid and are actually buying the “fact” that Bush is our “President”. Both Bushes have made this country the laughing stock of the world. And France, I apologize for the ignorance of the few Americans who are bad mouthing you.
MICHAEL MOORE FOR PRESIDENT!!!
WRITTEN 98 YEARS AGO
“The loud little handful - as usual - will shout for war. The pulpit will - warily and cautiously object - at first: the great, big, dull bulk of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes and try to make out why there should be a war, and will say earnestly and indignantly, “It is unjust and dishonorable and there is no necessity for it.” Then the handful will shout louder. A few fair men on the other side will argue and reason against the war with speech and pen, and at first will have a hearing and be applauded: but it will not last long: those others will outshout them, and presently the anti-war audiences will thin out and lose popularity. Before long you will see this curious thing: the speakers stoned from the platform, and free speach strangled by hordes of furious men who in their secret hearts are still at one with the stoned speakers - as earlier - but do not dare to say so. And now the whole nation - pulpit and all - will take the war-cry, and shout itself hoarse, and mob any honest man who ventures to open his mouth: and presently such mouths will cease to open. Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception.”
-Mark Twain, from “The Mysterious Stranger”, c. 1905
I am Canadian. Coming from a country where our leaders have not thrown us into a war that the majority of it’s citizens do not want and the U.N does not comply with, I feel sympathy for any country where there governments spark fear and prevent free speechon such a mass scale as with the U.S. It’s the very defintion of tyranny. A tyrant meaning someone who uses power in a harsh and oppressive way. Jean Chretien and his crew are getting some guff up here and money hungry pundits are huffing but for the most part our voices are being heard. Huffing and puffing about ” harming U.S ties” by a minority doesn’t turn OUR government around (and I hope to God it won’t). MAJORITY rules and I hope to GOD that that same mentality will eventually come into practice for your country soon.
Like many others that have comented, Im a vet too. Mr. Moore represents the people I served, the hard working average
American. Our government no longer represents them and neither does the main streem media. Mike has gained my respect for having the balls to stand up and give a voice to the Americans who are no longer heard.
Jasen
He’s one of the only brave enough to speak his mind (the truth), what ever happenend to free speech, whenever someone says anything negative about bush, it’s as if a crime, this is not diplomacy
I am happy to see that not all (or perhaps not even most?) Americans are moronic warfanatics, who are trying to manipulate the rest of the world. Still I am soooooooo glad I do not live in America. You poor people!
Red:
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
(join me, Tom(Denver) and Spike(Vancouver) for a name-calling free chat…)
To all those who feel they need to stand behind the “president” of the USA here is an exact quote of what he said about war when asked;
“I’ve been to war. I’ve raised twins. If I had a choice, I’d rather go to war.” -George W Bush, Jan 7/2002
Isn’t that funny? He obviously thought so. Is this the man that should be sending people to die? I would say not. But I mean war is fun for Bush, he knows he isn’t going to die.
If you can still stand behind this ignorant idiot you are definately brainwashed by the good ‘ol boys in Washington.
Mr Moore is a messenger. He comes from a place the human race is headed toward and will eventually reach. This place resides at the core of every human soul. This place has no form, no judgement, no hate, no need for violence or war and no self hatered. This place has no room for any of that. Every soul is but one piece but is part of the whole. This place can be seen in the eyes of a child, it can be heard when our airborn friends sing to us, and can be felt in a hug a smile or the beauty of the cosmos. Its magic surrounds us. It has no god because we are all part of this god. This mysterious force is not really that mysterious. Love, Light and Forgiveness are far more powerfull then war, hate and revenge. Mr Moore is one of the messengers to remind us of this. It’s in you. It’s in me. The world seems to be waking up. I’m glad that so many see and feel the changes. Why are so many shaken by his simple message? He is proof that love and light are more powefull then war and hate. If you look hard enough you can see the light within him. Its the same light that is us all. It’s always in the simple things that bring out the greatness. A smile, a hug, a listen can move mountains. War and hate create more war and more hate. I feel it’s time to get off the merrygoround. Always rememmber, if you look up and smile at the universe, the universe is always smiling back at ya. I like that. When you let go of your fears, your fears let go of you.
>>When are you foreigners going to learn? When a dictator/mass murderer is threatening our country, we’re not going to court a bunch of pussies (aka France) just to get permission to defend ourselves. Sorry, but the UN is nothing but a debating club and we’re not going to be hamstrung by nations whose economy relies on the Iraqi oil trade: GERMANY, FRANCE, and RUSSIA. And to all the Canadians that are bitching and moaning about this war, get used to countries doing things without your approval, because no one gives a damn about what you think.<<
And this is EXACTLY why 9/11 happened. Nobody has started lobbing bombs at Americans in Europe yet, but keep it up and you’ll loose the last vestiges of support here as well. As insane as the Russians may be, you can at least predict their actions. A new PETO (Pan European Treaty Organisation) sounds better and better by the day.
Martin Hansen.
Hi…
I think you US guys are a pretty scary bunch of trigger-happy and ultra-patriotic people… Many of you anyway, but I’m glad to say that more and more of you are opening your eyes… Peace!
Michael Moore is great! He’s a brilliant man, and I’m very glad, that there are still people like him on this planet. No matter how much power, money and technology we have, it’s people like him who rescue humans like us from killing each other.
His speech at the Oscar celebrations was true and his open letter to the white house is amazing.
Thanks Mr.Moore!
Sure MM is an important guy in respect to a broader discussion on what is going wrong with the US. It even seems to me, that MM is more important to the rest of the world, than to the US, since he is the one with the loudest voice. I personally like to hear this
I believe that most Americans pretty much accept what the government says as true and right. This country is the greatest in the world because of the freedoms and rights it guarentees EVERY citizen. No one has the right to take away your our freedom. If you read the Patriot Act (Available on Internet or at public library) which was passed right after 9-11, you see the direct violations to the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Illegal tribunals, searches and seizures with no warrant, phone tapping and taping of attorney/client conversations are all included in this act. Bush, Clinton and all their cronies are the same. The make the laws and fight the wars for corporate America which truly runs our government now. I fought in Dessert Storm and always tried to believe that the government was right and good. The reality is that there’s a lot of criminality in govt. and the media does not report it. Our government is becoming Socialism, run by corporations. Things are getting worse under our noses. Violence, the economy, environmental degradation are all out of control. This capitalist-corporate mess can’t continue like this forever. The machine is broken and we need to fix it. Our forefathers rebelled under far lesser oppression.
It’s pleasing to see that all Americans aren’t as CNN describes them as real Patriots, and that many of you can see your Goverment for what it is. Bush is an unbelievably dumd yet powerful fascist dictator that has taken control of your country and ignores the wishes of you Americans. As some mildly important American said, ‘There was never a good War or a Bad Peace.’ The time has come for Americans when u cant remove your president through votes to remove him through force, storm the White House!
thank-you Mr. Moore,
PEACE
Sean from Ireland: Hussein is the bad guy here, not Bush. Take a minute to think about how stupid you sound when you waste all your breath calling Bush a dictator. And the majority of Americans support this war, despite what that pathological liar Moore says. Just look at the polls, you stupid mick.
what a joke!
It’s time for you pricks to come up with a new catch-phrase. If I hear someone say “illegal war” one more time I’m going to sling a rod! There is no such thing as “international law.” Law is a codified rule usually defining prohibited (sometimes proscribed) activity, the violation of which subjects the violator to punishment. internationally there are only treaties. Or in the case of Iraq, a truce, which Hussein has broken. And that is why we’re laying waste to his country right now. And I invite all you European and Canadian pacifists to try to stop us. Bombs away!!
People who believe Moore’s BS are the same people who believed Jesse Jackson when he claimed the CIA introduced crack and AIDS to blacks so we could keep them down.
“No blood for oil!” What a stupid appeal. Anyone who says that is an uninformed idiot. Do you really think anything could be so simple as the US and UK invading Iraq for oil? Anyone who has done their research knows that nearly every oil field, producing or not, is held by the French, the Russians, and the Chinese. In fact, French oil companies have been furiously signing multi-billion dollar lease agreements with Iraq over the last two months. Who
“bombs away” (????!)
...from an “american lawyer” (shock)
....brilliant…
enjoy your “freedom fries” asshole
Five surgeons are discussing who makes the
best patients to operate on. The first surgeon
says, “I like to see accountants on my
operating table, because when you open
them up, everything inside is numbered.”
The second responds, “Yeah, but you
should try electricians. Everything inside
them is color-coded.”
The third surgeon says, “No, I really think
librarians are the best; everything inside
them is in alphabetical order.”
The fourth surgeon chimes in: “You know,
I like construction workers. They always
understand when you have a few parts left
over at the end and when the job takes
longer than you said it would.”
But the fifth surgeon shuts them all up
when he observes: “The French are the
easiest to operate on. There’s no guts, no
heart, no balls and no spine. Plus the
head and ass are interchangeable.
Majority rules in Canada???? We are talking about the same country where one province (Quebec)carries 40% of the vote.
Here on the west coast of Canada we already know who has won the election before the polls are closed & our votes are tallied.
Some would even question why we even bother to vote. Democracy in Canada??? I don’t think so.
Mr. Bleifuss,
Thanks for the insight into Moore’s speech.
I am curious about the controversy surrounding his book (Stupid White Men) and the Bowling for Columbine- what about all the inaccuracies in the movie and book?
If true, shouldn’t he address it?
>>It’s time for you pricks to come up with a new catch-phrase. If I hear someone say “illegal war” one more time I’m going to sling a rod! There is no such thing as “international law.” Law is a codified rule usually defining prohibited (sometimes proscribed) activity, the violation of which subjects the violator to punishment. internationally there are only treaties. Or in the case of Iraq, a truce, which Hussein has broken. And that is why we’re laying waste to his country right now. And I invite all you European and Canadian pacifists to try to stop us. Bombs away!!<<
So by your definition, the Nazi’s who were purely prosecuted for waging agression warfare were wrongly convicted???????????
Besides, why would we want to stop you? USA is once again making an entire population hate them with a vengeance. The power vacuum will need to be filled in Iraq after Saddam, and for some odd reason I believe that this vacuum will be filled by Fundamentalists and not Coca Cola, Burgers and Curly Fries. Then you’ll have to drop some more bombs, or wave civil liberties in Iraq, but hey..it’s all in the name of peace….
“What would be wrong with waiting for the UN”. That is what people really wanna know. We ALL loathe Saddam except the Palestinians, (Who hate you even more than the Iraqis), but how big a threat was he really? I mean really, really like in handing over chemical weapons to Osama. CIA didn’t think he was a threat, MI6 didn’t think he was a threat, neither did Russia or any other intelligence for that matter. Not even the Israelis were afraid of him, but Bush needed a boogey man and that just sealed his fate.
Martin Hansen.
I support Mike. I differ on a few points and have different interpretations, however his book and film were extremely well produced. Oil may well be a reason that the United States administration (note, I did not write Americans) is interested in taking great control of Iraq; but what origionally occured to me was that Iraq is a country. So? So it has fixed buildings and troops, and leaders who can be captured with great glory. It (the administration) did not succeed in capturing Osama, so it went after Iraq, in order to show the American public that they were being protected from danger. Never mind that most of the terrorists were Saudi Arabian. Americans would not last as an occupying force in Saudi Arabia, the population would not stand for it, so going closer to the source of the problem would not work. Also, consider the reasons that (quote from a redneck) they wanna kill us all. Being Canadian, I get along fairly well with Americans, even a couple that support the war, but much of the world is extremely uncomfortable with the Imperialism of America, myself included. Having been to the Middle East for several months and living with them, I can say that I would sooner be lost in Aleppo Syria in a park at midnight, than a block away from a NYC, or even Toronto, police station. Anyway, I hope someone else can comment further on the cause of the tension between America and the world. And please do so intelligently. I’ve seen far to many ill written and unreasonable statements, if you support the war and the man living in the White House, please explain why, using sentences based on sound knowledge, so that through intelligent discussion so sense can be made amidst the shit that has been spewed forth by the minority, I hope, of Americans who are so mentally repressed that they cannot competently express themselves.
ALAN
This was an excellent story, and literally the first time I’d heard about the stagehands misrepresenting audience reaction. I guess it’s an apt metaphor for the media right now, a handful of people with clout fixing public perception.
This was an excellent story, and literally the first time I’d heard about the stagehands misrepresenting audience reaction. I guess it’s an apt metaphor for the media right now, a handful of people with clout fixing public perception.
To Adam in Pa.
You put that so eloquently… Bravo!!
The world is always at war. The rich will always exploit the poor. Opinions don’t matter, actions do. Some of the ‘pro war’ rantings are really very funny. I nearly pissed my pants reading Diane from Chicago, open your eyes says the war is not about oil it’s about…oil(guess he forgot to open his eyes and read his own opinion), but the racist jokes(five surgeons etc) are side splitting comedy. Most of these Americans are not necessarily malicious, they are merely closed minded and easily manipulated. They prefer to rationalize their guilt with partial explanations, they believe only what they want to. The only hope left is that some people here are begining to see how things are and how they have always been, but don’t count on it.
It just dawned on me that some Americans might still not know the reason that 9/11 could ever get underway. These people will, quite rightfully, ask themselves why USA was singled out for such a terrorist action.
I think that the US media have been so good at spinning the 9/11 story that the story about what the fuck motivated these guys has never been told. I’m not agreeing with their methods, their attitude, their anything. I’m just asking for 5 minutes of thinking.
In any criminal case, an 9/11 was a criminal case, one of the most vital parts of the police investigation is motive, IE. why did the perpetrator do what he did. Why did the 9/11 people do what they did? They certainly weren’t crazy as no crazy people could pull off an action that demanded military precision. They were fanatics, yes, but that’s no motive. What made Osama and his suicide pilots hate USA as much as they did, hate USA so much that they were quite willing to give their life for it?
It’s a very, very nasty question to ask yourself, but understanding why another person is out to do you harm is almost as important as defending yourself. So take 5 minutes out of this debate and ask yourself why.
After you know why, ask yourself if attacking Iraq will have prevented another terrorist attack in any way?
My view, as I’ve already stated, is that the US strayed from their “Gentle Giant” stage where they were fighting wars out of ideology, to a “Corporate Giant” that fights wars for profit. This war will not make USA any safer at all, in fact all it will do is make you 20 million more death sworn enemies, men (possibly women) determined to make you pay.
No Nation is perfect and all nations must eventually act to assure their own safety, but safety is not making more enemies and keeping the wheels in the same old rut that preticipated 9/11. USA need to change it’s foreign policy or at least let the world know it’s projections over the next 20 to 30 years. You are now the only superpower, well hyperpower to be frank, and that carries a huge responsabillity. You cannot allow yourself stop-gap solutions any more, they simply invite more counteractions. Get the world on your bandwagon instead of alienating everyone.
Martin Hansen.
P.S.
While attending chemistry lessons at university, our teacher told us about an accident with a fertilizer ship in South America. It was carrying an Ammoinia/Nitrate fertilizer which got wet and blew up. It levelled an entire port and a LOT of people lost their lives. Think about what a ship full of this fertilizer made into a bomb, ala the Oklahoma bombing, would do to one of your habours. This fertilizer is completely legitimate and so is diesel oil. Give me 2 million dollars and I could make a bomb to level Manhattan, or bring down the Golden Gate. Until people, and I don’t just mean Muslims, as a big coutry who meddles only out of self interrest with corporate gains in mind, you’ll never be safe again.
Tom…
Once again, I’m convinced that the real heart of our debate needs to happen about the MEDIA, and how we evaluate conflicting information that is been given to us as “truth.”
I don’t wish to degenerate into “snippet warfare,” where I’m endlessly sourcing articles that either refute your position, or present a different version of events. You’re aware, I’m sure, that these articles are out there…not merely in the “lunatic fringe,” but in nearly every media not directly controlled by the same “power elite.” I encourage you to monitor the FAIR website (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting http://www.fair.org ) They have much to say regarding these matters.
My focus on media has quite a lot to do with my own study of the subject, as well as from teaching critical “Media Literacy” as a part of our high school English curriculum here in Manitoba. Media literacy can be distilled into the following “Key Concepts” (sorry…I’m sounding like a teacher, here…but DO read these, since they inform a good part of my own “critical lense”) These concepts were compiled by a media analyst and educator with whom I have spoken on several occasions, John Pungente, S.J.
http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/teachers/media_literacy/key_concept.cfm
I don’t think that, having read these “key concepts,” you’ll find any of
them terribly controversial. The basic idea is simply that messages sourced
through ANY media outlet are NOT “value neutral.”...
So how, then, do we evaluate the multitudinous messages we see each day?
(continued…)
(continued…)
Well…One of the reasons I am rather faithful to the CBC here in Canada is that it is what we call a “crown corporation,” paid for by tax dollars. While this doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have a BIAS, it DOES mean that the bias is likely somewhat different than stations who rely exclusively on commercial revenue from advertisers. (I should add that I always consult MULTIPLE sources when I’m seriously interested in a story…I try to find the most vastly disparate “slants”, and then I try to sift through the messages for what I believe to approximate the “truth.”)
The principle is simple: If FOX NEWS has commercials for “Zest Soap” interrupting it, what are the odds that the “Zest Soap Overpriced!”-story will ever air on it? (simplistic example…sorry) After all, Zest is PAYING the station for air time… It is suicidal for big networks to run stories that are critical of their FUNDING BASE.
What does all of this have to do with the war? Well, Tom.. It has everything to do with what you referred to as “political” motivations for the war.. (those motivations that are not as simple as “eliminating weapons” and “liberating Iraqis”)... We KNOW that it isn’t that simple, or else we would also intervene militarily in East Timor, China, Saudi Arabia…etc.,etc.,etc… (right?)
My contention is that these political (read “power”) goals relate to the goals of the corporations controlling the mainstream media in the US. (see http://www.cjr.org/owners/index.asp for a comprehensive index of who owns what in the world of international media)...
(continued…)
(continued…)
A quick example: General Electric is a huge corporation which, in addition to owning many mainstream media (including NBC, MSNBC, A&E, History Channel, etc…) ALSO happens to be one of the largest weapons manufacturers in the world (if not THE largest)...
Perhaps this has no effect on the stories we see on the networks they control, but I think it would be naive to think so.
It is difficult to talk about these things without sounding like a nutjob “conspiracy theorist,” but hopefully by now, through our prior “conversations,” I’ve convinced you that I’m not a lunatic…
This war in the media is a huge PR campaign… Yes, I’m happy that Jessica Lynch is okay… But the sceptical part of me…the part that learned 2-years after “Gulf War I” that the “Incubator Atrocities” never happened, and the story was effectively a “commercial” to build support for war… well… THAT part of me is looking for where the sound boom and lighting is coming from in the hospital pictures. (watch the (VERY FICTIONAL) movie “Wag the Dog” for the most cynical version of this)
Even if the story is completely “true” and “honest”, we must STILL ask ourselves WHY we are seeing IT, rather than a nearly INFINITE number of possible stories… (Like the story on BBC 2 nights ago of a Christian family in Iraq being killed by a stray coalition missile… Isn’t that “newsworthy” for the US networks?)
I don’t expect you to suddenly go “OH! I guess I can’t trust anything on big American television”... Of course you’re not going to say that… But MAYBE, in coming days, I can persuade you to take a more critical perspective on the source of your “truth”.
Well, here we are. The only democracy in the world: The internet. Because everywhere else things said are changed, altered, cut, and lied upon (and here too, i might add - it is simply more difficult to control, and thank ... whom ever for that). Shouldn’t those who gave their comments below mine have added an e-mail or at least a name? Just to make themselves a little more believable and true to the nature of the socalled democratic way of the glorious West. But no, cowards seem to flock in the shadows.
So let me tell you about Denmark. We too have been flinged into this killingspree of a war on terror or whatever they (i.e. politicians) try to convince us this is. A majority of my people were against this shamefull act of… well, lets call a horse by it’s name: Terror. The danes didn’t wish for this war let alone to participate. We thought that with our system (one person, one vote, as Mchael Moore calls it) were protected from these kinds of corruptionist politicians and their illigate koups (sorry about the spelling). But our system is not a safety against this; any type of democracy is at fall as we speak. We are waging a war for democracy by killing every free thought and man on this infantile little heckhole we call Earth. For what, some might ask (I, for one do)? The smell of green, the taste of today (and not tomorrow!), the sound of freedom (not the vision!), the manipulated pictures of succes and the everlasting thrust forward with no looking back.
I bow my head, in the realisation of democracys fall. I am as of today no longer an democrat (in its worldly sense). If this is democracy, bring me terror, bring me death, bring me quiet peace, leaving only the searing sound of a single gunshot.
For the Republicans who didn’t get this last part: I’ll listen to Marilyn Manson and i’m gonna go Bowling for Columbine.
Sincerly and truly not one of you
Johannes Ingwersen, dk.
In a discussion, such as this, we stop and listen(read) what others have to say. It is equally important to keep your thoughts brief and to the point. Those of you who are rambling on or submitting successive entries, should consider trying to cut back. No one is going to be interested in reading long, pointless entries or ones with misspelled words and poor grammar . Proof read and keep it short. I acknowledge a couple of misspellings myself(no one is perfect) and if english is not yer first language ok, but if you are American, you have no excuse. Oh wait what am I thinking… yes you do, yer American and the education system is designed to make you deaf, dumb and blind. This entry has now reached it’s maximum length.
Hi Tim
I can see you & Tom are in the middle of a debate so I hope you don’t mind if I jump in for just a minute.
I have been watching the CBC as well as CNN & any other network I can access not to mention all the reading I am sure we have all done as well.
My point is this… I don’t really care whose reporting the war. I think most reasonable adults know that news is going to be somewhat biased. The truth is you can’t sugarcoat war & the images of death. No matter what network you are watching the images coming from Iraq are very sad indeed.
Still that doesn’t change my mind about the war. I believe that in this case war was the only alternative left & stand by that opinion.
Please convince me with reasonable arqument that there were still alternatives out there to this war & what they are.
Red:
You contend that “war was the only alternative” in the case of Iraq, and invite me to entertain others.
Before I do, let me direct your attention to the US Department of State’s website, where it catalogues Human Rights Reports on countries from around the world. (From the 2001 report)
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/
Let’s take a random country from the list provided, shall we? How about… um… Nepal (?)
What do we have here….
a. Arbitrary or Unlawful Deprivation of Life
b. Disappearance
c. Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
d. Arbitrary Arrest, Detention, or Exile
(...I could go on and on, right?)
So I guess the question I’d ask is: What other alternative to WAR do we have with ANY of these countries where we know unbelievable atrocities are being carried out? (And why are we being so selective in our “liberation” of the Iraqis?)
(continued…)
(continued…)
I suppose our “alternatives” have quite a bit to do with our “objectives,” right? I mean… If our objective is “regime change,” then we’ve already really limited our options… If our “objective” is limiting global terrorism, then (even according to the Oct. 2002 CIA report), military intervention in Iraq is working AGAINST us.
So before I finish addressing your question about “alternatives”...let’s talk about “objectives”.
After all, if my objective is to “stop my neighbour from beating his kids,” my alternatives are significantly different than if I wish to “protect MYSELF from my neighbour,” or, for that matter, “purchase my neighbour’s house.”
i would seem that many have not read your constitution or misunderstand it
I just received a fascinating article from my Aunt, a professor and Historian at UofC, who has worked with the UN on Bosnian “war crimes” investigations.
For those of an “academic” persuasion, it is a fairly interesting look at one of the proposed leaders for the “new, liberated Iraq.”
http://www.prospect.org/print/V13/21/dreyfuss-r.html
You pro-war nuts act like a bunch of communists. Shelley, grow up, do you employ any objectivity at all. And you non-Texans, this Resident Bush has completely trashed Texas like Ken Lay did Enron. Peace and Love from a red necked Texan
Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.
Tim
To touch on that media subject very briefly again, while Saddam may not have been making the news on the CBC, he has stayed in the headlines in the US since the end of the Gulf War.
In the case of Saddam I truly believe that the if the UN had done their job after the Gulf War we wouldn’t be there now. (and before you get started on 1991, I agree we should have finished the job then instead of abandoning the country)
Saddam has continually fired upon ally planes patroling the no fly zones. That alone should have been enough for the UN to seek action as Iraq was in direct violation of any one of the resolutions that have been written or rewritten the last 12 years.
Certainly the genocide of an entire people would cause the UN to rise up & force this madman out wouldn’t you think?
I do absolutely believe that 9/11 shook the US up but it should have shaken up more than just the US. The World Trade Center housed businesses from around the world, 47 different countries I believe, & we were all victims. Not just the Americans.
Atrocities in other countries? I realize there are other countries where the people are suffering at the hands of evil dictators. Hopefully the UN will not continue to sit idly by on their hands & actually start taking positive steps towards the liberation of all people.
In reviewing the posts on here, I did notice a lot of name calling. I wont lie, I actually slipped up on an earlier post and told a guy where to stick his…
Anyway, as I was driving home I started thinking about these posts (I am actually quite happy that there are so many people that see things similar to me)—and I started to think about something I read by Dr. Martin Luther King. I’m sure I will butcher this quote, but it goes something to the effect “the best way to defeat your enemy, is to make him believe your point of view”.
So, instead of telling people they are stupid assholes, it might help to try to convince them otherwise.
-a
Red…
In response to your last post, where you said: “while Saddam may not have been making the news on the CBC, he has stayed in the headlines in the US since the end of the Gulf War.”
(I’ll leave aside that Saddam HAS, in fact, been in CBC’s news… You LIVE in Canada, and should know that we all ALSO watch US networks, too, right?)
but that aside for a moment:
Of COURSE Saddam Hussein has stayed in the mainstream media in the US!!... He’s the “boogey-man” of the post-cold-war era! (Has the Ayatollah Khamenei, in Iran, ALSO stayed in US news? Remember he was the LAST “bad guy”... How about Mohmmar Qadaffi, of Libya fame? Remember him?... Maybe these two countries are “flying straight” these days, though..(?))
Secondly: What, exactly, is the link between 9/11 and Iraq? (Apart from the fact that they are frequently mentioned in the same sentence by news personnel and politicians)
Is the war in Iraq related to “retaliation” for 9/11? That’s sort-of odd, don’t you think? (Especially since no evidence links Iraq to the WTC attack… In fact, Osama Bin Laden hails from Saudi Arabia, our “good buddies” in international oil trade…Why have we not attacked the Saudis? Have you LOOKED at their human rights record? YIKES!)
Even MORE interestingly… When the Oklahoma city bombing took place, and the bombing spree of the “Uni-bomber”... Why didn’t the Department of Defence tear apart the American Midwest looking for other disenfranchised, white, middle-class “terrorists?”
(Thoughts to ponder…)
Tim
The point I am making about 9/11 is this… If we ( us, they) weren’t concerned about evil & what it can do up until that point, I would think that in the aftermath of 9/11 that the world would wake up & realize we have to do what we can to keep the madmen of the world under control. ( for lack of a better term).
As for the CBC comment, I have been here since May of 2001 & I was more or less asking the question.
Oklahoma City… A sickening reminder of what hate can do. I like to believe that my gov’t is doing all they can to fight hate on our soil as well. (I know you’re going to nail me on that one!)
Red: (on “keeping the madmen of the world under control”)
Great idea. Let’s start by not CREATING them.
Have we forgotten, so soon, that BOTH Saddam and Osama (if these are the “madmen of choice” on today’s menu), were propped up and trained by the CIA? We WANTED Saddam powerful, back in the day, because he was “kicking some Ayatollah-butt,” courtesy of our wonderful, western weapons(chemical, too!)
The post WWII era is a litany of US foreign policy intervening in various ways, and to varying degrees, with just about every country on the globe.
To be sure, many of these interventions have probably had beneficial results for some of the people living in those countries… (just because I can’t think of an example off of the top of my head, it doesn’t mean it isn’t out there!)
If you’re REALLY interested in a scary picture, check out this interview with William Blum, formerly of the US State Department. What he says about United States foreign policy in his book, “Killing Hope,” will make you rather uncomfortable. http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Bloody_Road_Empire.html
Inquiry into the question of “madmen” seems to suggest, ironically, that we are, indeed, more interested in “controlling” them, than we are in “eliminating” them.
Thanks for keeping up the discussion… Others appear to have “dropped out”
It doesn’t matter if you agree with Michael Moore or not. He has the balls to put his opinions, and his reputation on the line for what he believes in. You gotta respect that. Who else do you know who will actually do that, without pussyfooting round in the middleground?? And he also backs up a statement. If you’ve read anything by Michael Moore, you’ll realise hes not just being half assed when he claims Bush is a false president, and that this war is false. Unfortunately, the aging conservatives, in the academy, don’t appreciate fresh views on world politics by a petty citizen, and didn’t exactly give him time to voice the full story at the academy awards. He’s being doing the same stuff since his film ‘Roger and Me’, and even if he is a bit extreme - who cares?! The man is incredible, and believe it or not is only fighting for the good of democracy, and for the good of the average citizen.
Breaking News:
Iraq may ‘escalate horrible tactics’:
-Pentagon
“Pentagon spokeswoman Victoria Clarke said Iraqi fighters have been using hospitals, schools, mosques and residential areas as military storage sites and command posts “clearly hoping to blame any civilian deaths on coalition forces.”“
Blame coalition forces for civilian deaths? That’s ABSURD! All the coalition is doing is dropping tens of thousands of bombs and high-explosive missiles on a city of 6-million people…
How DARE those crooked Iraqis try to suggest that “we” are, in any way, responsible for civilian deaths!
The FAA has rigid guidelines as do Air Traffic Controllers. One of these mandates that ANY aircraft which deviates a mere 2 miles from it’s flight route must be reported to the proper authorities, i.e.-NORAD. Flights of every size deviate from their appointed routes on an average about 50-60 times yearly. When this happens and simultaneously, the pilot of these craft do not respond to Air Traffic Control…fighter jets are IMMEDIATELY scrambled and ALWAYS intercept these off-course planes. They then signal to the errant pilot by tipping their wings up and down. If there’s still no appropriate response from the pilot, warning shots are fired near the off-course plane. If there is no sign at this point, the fighters are to forcibly escort the plane to land. If all this fails and the plane is deemed to be purposefully headed for populated areas, including tall buildings in Huge Megalopoli, (Like New York), they have the duty to shoot them down. This is standard procedure by Norad. It has always been adhered to religiously…except for 9/11. Another means of avoiding what happened that day was outlined succinctly by a group of seasoned, veteren pilots. To a man they all agreed that were there a terrorist threat aboard such as was alleged to be the case on 9/11…they would flip the plane upside down so that whoever was standing, (the alleged terrorists), would land on their heads and break their necks. Except for 9/11. Gross Incompetence by all authorities concerned or complicity. I’m sure you can all draw your own conclusions.
Laura from Toronto (citing a Bush quote):
>>>“I’ve been to war. I’ve raised twins. If I had a choice, I’d rather go to war.” -George W Bush, Jan 7/2002>>>
I wonder which WAR that might have been? Dubya, like many rich, politically connected young men, was given preferential admittance over 100,000 other applicants trying to get into the National Guard during the Vietnam War. That means that he never actually saw combat. In fact, according to Molly Ivins, the author of
Tim from Winnepeg:
>>>It is suicidal for big networks to run stories that are critical of their FUNDING BASE
I absolutely agree with you. My country has made some terrible mistakes in the past. I don’t believe however that any US President thought (Reagan, Bush, Clinton) that Saddam would turn out to be the “Hitler ” of our time.
I do believe Saddam has to go & if the UN won’t , can’t, whatever, then yes, I believe the coalition has done the right thing.
War is a terrible thing but nothing else has seemed to work. The bastard continued to fire on ally planes patroling the no fly zone during the last inspections, he denied the inspectors interviews with the scientists, anything he could do to antagonize the situation he did it. You can’t tell me that wasn’t intentional &
I have no doubt Saddam is getting exactly what he asked for!
Tim, love the polling questions you presented as satire on how the media is getting its polling results. I’m sure the media’s questions are subtler than that but your point is well made. The media is making every effort to get results it desires
Linda, you mentioned: ‘War Against Freedom’...who wrote it…and how long ago was it published? I want a copy.
It’s truly amazing, the argument of, “Saddam has weapons of mass destruction” became “Liberate people of Iraq”!
Colin Powell’s Dog/Pony show at UN included many excerpts from graduate students treatises of ten years back doing research.
Condoleeza Rice made efforts to broker deals which scenarios could be found justifying war on Iraq. This was shortly after Bush/Cheney unelected Junta took over.
Every key player in this has huge investments in oil corporations. Conflicts of interests abound!
With potential exception of Japan after WWII…We’ve never democratized any country after we have bombed or invaded it.
At Pro-war rallies people participating are treated with respect…At Anti-war rallies…we are threatened, labeled, libeled, we have rocks thrown at us…
Anyone who takes labor’s side over big business and questions ethics of corporate America and legitimacy of their actions is labeled ‘Pinko’ Commies. Anyone who believes America is too quick to bomb and militarily invade another country is treated to McCarthyite tactics.
Let’s ask Red, White and blue conservative right-wingers to do something constructive!
That is to please bury your unseemly hidden love for Joe McCarthy and never let him surface again! Corporate loving conservatives were against: minimum wage laws, child-labor laws, anti-trust laws, security exchange commissions, pollution standards, social security, workers rights to organize and express grievances against corporate employers…
Please people if you folks on the right don’t want these pesky regulation that are rightfully called STANDARDS…then you can surely move to third world sweatshops where those pesky regulations do not exists.
Civil rights activist Medgar Evers was snipered down in his drive way in 1964…the last words he allegedly heard were from his little daughters who cried out: “Daddy, Daddy please get up”. How many Iraqi children are going to bed fatherless thinking the same sentiment as their papas lie dying in the sand shot with american bullets because of this illegal invasion…
George
Red:
I wasn’t aware of that Dr. Helen Caldicott story…thanks… I’ll have to look into it… but stuff like that is happening ALL THE TIME.
(I heard that dear old Phil Donahue has been pulled lately, too… truth be told, I don’t really watch television too much (not without cable!))
As far as your favourite “Hitler” and mine, Saddam… I can’t find my source right now, but are you aware that the initial comparisons between Saddam and Hitler came about as a result of “focus groups” in the days leading up to Gulf War I?
The PR firms looking to build public support for war determined that a combination of “demonizing a single leader through comparisons to Hitler,” and atrocity tales (a la “incubator stories”) was the most effective way to galvanize public support for a war.
Check out the following article, from January of this year… (I’ve decided to use ABC News as a source on this one… ‘thought that’d be less controversial)
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/demonizing_saddam030129.html
Saddam is NOT a good guy. He IS, I believe, pretty scary…
...But if the only “dirt” we have on him from the past 10 years is “shooting at planes that are flying over his country”...Well… I dunno… I preferred the incubator fictions, as far as “raising my ire” is concerned.
Tim
It is a cliche but I do believe that Saddam is the “Hitler” of our time. I have read a couple really good books on his reign, how he came to power & the atrocities he has unleashed on his own people. Not just the Kurds but also those closest to him & let’s not forget about his son’s & the terror they are responsible for.
And Tim… I think you & I both know that his crimes are far worse than shooting planes down. That was merely an example of his continuing efforts to antagonize the US & their allies. (not that any crimes should be made light of)
As I said before… Saddam is getting exactly what he wanted with this war.
November 21st, 1864 in a letter to Col. William F. Elkins from President Abraham Lincoln: “We may congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its end. It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood…It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless.” Sound familiar? And to think, that Great man was assassinated a mere six months later. Guess that’s what everybody means by claiming they’re REAL Americans. Also, this was about 22 years BEFORE the Supreme Court of 1886 voted 5 to 4 in upholding the insane concept that corporations are to be construed as, “persons”. Wow, Lincoln was more than prescient in his thoughts. The New World Order is the final permutation of that historical prophecy. We live what he feared then- today and yet can’t bring ourselves to admit it such as supporting Michael Moore’s brave attempts to begin eradicating this contemptible influence in our lives. He can’t do it alone, people. If you don’t mind being indentured servants I guess I can understand how rabidly you feel you need to cling to the scraps they toss you for slavishly dancing to their cracking bullwhips. Lincoln died for freeing unwilling slaves. What can one do when those slaves are voluntary?
You are all worthless pieces of shit. None of you are interesting and you will all be killed in the revolution. This is not some dating chat room you nerds(Tim, Red + Tom), this is supposed to be an egotistical grandstanding jerkoff session. Please stick to the agenda.
demo:
You’ve said some interesting things over the past few days on this site(notwithstanding your last comment). Are you, by any chance, DRINKING on this lovely Friday night?
(ps—I thought we WERE grandstanding)
I read through these posts and see again and again “Michael Moore speaks the truth” Nothing could be further from the truth.
I have to credit Moore’s ability to attract a following. I don’t think nearly as many would follow if they knew they were being lied to and thus fooled into sharing his distorted world-view.
If you can handle the truth, go to these links. I admire these people who have the stomach to keep this guy on their mind long enough to research and de-bunk his propaganda.
I think you’ll feel a little foolish about worshipping a con-man.
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/kopel/kopel040403.asp
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=110003233
hey demo. u promised me ‘n candi u’d spend tonite on r regular chat site. what r u doing here?
xoxoxo
;)
There are always people who denie the truth,MM is one of my hero’s who reveils the truth.And those people who denie the truth,and there are many of those people,either too dumb to see the"real” picture,or smart enough but denie the truth because it could be used against them,those people are the “brain” of many bad things in live.Evil.And to everybody who reads his book SWM and still say ‘Go Bush”...STOP deneing that America made a big mistake with this man.
I respect everybody who says what he whants(or in MM case what was needed),even if he/she will be jammed in any way.
I can’t wait till the releise of your’e new movie.
Yes, Tim, our forces ARE responsible for those civilian deaths. Every US soldier over there is responsible. I urge everyone NOT to support those troops in this illegal, immoral and unconstitutional war.
Shame on all of you who do support such murder.
WWJD.
Top Ten Things That Will Get You Kicked Out Of Iraq
10. Replacing giant mural of Saddam with a giant mural of you
9. Addressing all the officers as Cap’n Crunch
8. Teaching captured Iraqi soldiers to sing Kenny Rogers ballads
7. Giving precise coordinates of Wolf Blitzer’s beard
6. Closing each report with “Bless our enlightened ruler Saddam Hussein, may he reign for 1,000 years”
5. Distributing leaflets telling Iraqi citizens how to save money by dialing 10-10-220
4. Senior officer asks to see you at 0400 hours; you show up 400 hours later
3. Your name is Geraldo Rivera
2. Your name is Saddam Hussein
1. Bringing your videophone into the show
Gotta love Dave! LOL!
i thought this was a very good story. i think moore is absolutely right about this war. once you peal away the bias of the media coverage that you are constantly pounded with you get a different picture of this war. a war that doesn’t add up. no iraqis have ever came here and killed any of us. they haven’t even threatened to. this war is all on a notion that they “MIGHT” attack us. that makes it unjust. thanks
Well, here we are. The only democracy in the world: The internet. Because everywhere else things said are changed, altered, cut, and lied upon (and here too, i might add - it is simply more difficult to control, and thank ... whom ever for that). Shouldn’t those who gave their comments below mine have added an e-mail or at least a name? Just to make themselves a little more believable and true to the nature of the socalled democratic way of the glorious West. But no, cowards seem to flock in the shadows.
So let me tell you about Denmark. We too have been flinged into this killingspree of a war on terror or whatever they (i.e. politicians) try to convince us this is. A majority of my people were against this shamefull act of… well, lets call a horse by it’s name: Terror. The danes didn’t wish for this war let alone to participate. We thought that with our system (one person, one vote, as Michael Moore calls it) we were protected from these kinds of corruptionist politicians and their illigate koups (sorry about the spelling). But our system is not a safety against this; any type of democracy is at fall as we speak. We are waging a war for democracy by killing every free thought and man on this infantile little heckhole we call Earth. For what, some might ask (I, for one do)? The smell of green, the taste of today (and not tomorrow!), the sound of freedom (not the vision!), the manipulated pictures of succes and the everlasting thrust forward with no looking back.
I bow my head, in the realisation of democracys fall. I am as of today no longer an democrat (in its worldly sense). If this is democracy, bring me terror, bring me death, bring me quiet peace, leaving only the searing sound of a single gunshot. And statistics say the bullet be bought at some other convinience-store than K-Mart, since Michael Morres film.
For the Republicans who didn’t get this last part: I’ll listen to Marilyn Manson and i’m gonna go Bowling for Columbine.
Sincerly and truly not one of you
Johannes Ingwersen, dk.
As an outsider let me assure you Michael Moore and some of these entertainers are giving the rest of the world assurance that there are still some sane and none stupid people left in the USA. We were all wondering there for a while. Go Michael!!
To Red:
The point is not:
“If the UN would have done their job”
but more likeley:
“if the US and GB would have let the UN doing their job”
if you don’t mind a bit of “eye opening”, I would suggest you the lecture of:
Sponeck, Hans von; “UN Policy in Iraq”
Since this english translation is not published yet, you should read the german language book:
“Irak. Chronik eines gewollten Krieges”
Hans von Sponeck was coordinator for the UN “oil for food” program in Iraq for 2 years and just like his predecessor he quit the job. reading this book will give you some impressions on his and his predecessors reasons to quit.
Hans von Sponeck worked 30 years for the UN.
By the way, there is nothing like the UN “no fly zone” in south and north Iraq. This “no fly” zones aren’t backed by any UN resolution.
Sadam is still in Iraq because US and GB did not want to let the UN make their job.
To Liloan Stitch,
so now that you have shown us all this great material about how “Untruthful” the film really is, will you go see it or have you already seen it?
Using other peoples critique of a film smells of intellectual dishonesty from yourself. Why not see the film and point out the glaring errors yourself?
You can call “bowling for Columbine” a mockumentary all you want, it doesn’t detract from the films genuine attempt at solving an american paradox: America is the richest nation on the planet and yet they are the most frigthened nation too, even with a great big military there is fear.
I live in a country where the ownership of a Handgun is concidered “odd” or “weird” in the extreme. I wouldn’t want it any other way. I lock my door to be sure, but why on earth would I want a handgun for defence, I might kill someone with it. If someone breaks into my home, he can be assured that I wont shoot him, I can be assured that he wont shoot me and we both know that the insurance company will pay for the theft and the police will arrest him at some point…or not. Burglary is a minor irritation, not a fear factor at all. The police in Denmark are armed with handguns, but this is mainly due to an incident 40 years ago when a car thief shot and killed 4 young policemen. It’s never been repeated, and the police are now only injured in accidental shootings, most often from their own weapons.
Your gunculture sickens me and the propagation of this culture in Hollywood films in general disgusts me even more. This is what “Bowling..” really adresses, the complete insistance that guns make you safer. As long as you slaughter close to 10.000 people a year with guns, I don’t see how you can be anything but medieval. I have a bigger chance of being struck and killed by lightning than being shot by a stranger. THAT is safety.
Martin Hansen.
Red:
Are you aware of the fact, that the US encouraged the Iraq in 1980 to begin war with Iran? Do you know something about the problems, the US had, loosing the Iran as stategic partner in middle east by the regime change in Iran 1979?
Are you aware of the fact, that the Iraq got “green light” for his 1990 Kuwait invasion by the American Ambassador in Kuweit?
Why do people tend to think, Sadam is a sort of Hitler? He is one of the biggest tyrans, that’s sure. But How many tyrans do we have in this world, led by the US, or at least with their OK, just because their interests are the same for the moment.
It wouldn’t be bad for some Americans to have a closer look at persons like Wolfowitz and Perle.
Manipulation, you are used to this matter of fact….. to a certain point, u didn notice what is Bush administration is doing with you and your country.
USA starts an illegitim war on Iraq, and Bush way of Ruling is nothing better than hitler…
Yes I know Marco. The US & the coalition are the bad guys here & Saddam is a prince in devil’s clothing. Poor little thing being picked on by the big, bad US. Give me a break!
Doesn’t really matter now as part one is almost over.
Might I suggest a little reading for you as well… Con Coughlin’s “Reign of Terror” or even better, Latif Yahya’s “I was Saddam’s Son”.
I think we should all have a closer look at those we defend.
People are people wherever you go. Good & bad. That is more reason for me as to why this war had to be fought. People are people & we all deserve to be free. No one should be able to get away with the atrocities that Saddam has inflicted on his own people. I can’t help but believe that in the end when the people of Iraq are liberated that they will be thankful someone finally stood up for them. The UN certainly didn’t.
Red:
Nothing is over, the US will find another Sadam, that’s sure.
You really try hard to get things wrong. Sure Sadam is a tyran (in respect to his own people), but he is no danger for his neighbours and not a danger for the US at all. US foreign policies are a bit funny in the last 30 years.
What if it could be proofen (and it can), that the US knows, that Sadam is not a danger at all, what if the US and GB killed more than 1.6 Million Iraqis (far more, than Sadam ever did) with keeping the embargo on Iraq. Things seem so easy undestandable, if you watch US mainstream news networks, but they aren’t.
US weapon inspectors said by 1998 the Iraq was disarmed by at least 95%. UN coordinators for the “oil for food” program repeatedly calculated the per head amount of money through the “oil for food” program at about 32 US cents per day! (For food, medicine, and infrastructure).
If Sadam was only of little danger 1991, how could he be of bigger danger 12 embargo years later?
Get the facts and you will begin to wonder.
George from Indiana: >>>Linda, you mentioned: ‘War Against Freedom’...who wrote it…and how long ago was it published? I want a copy.>>>
The War on Freedom is written by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed, published in June, 2002. You can purchase it directly from Tree of Life publications or Amazon.com.
http://waronfreedom.mediamonitors.net/index2.html
It also contains sample pages with excerpts from the book.
Another website with detailed information about September 11th is hosted by a former LAPD narcotics investigator who discovered the CIA was trading drugs in order to fund covert operations in the Middle East. He was forced out of his job a year later.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/index.html
When you read the information contained in both of these books, you
DEMO SUZUKI FROM NEGATIVELAND:
It is because of people like you that I dropped out of this debate in the first plae. You have proven time and again to be an ignorant, vulgar, uninformed, unitelligent belligerent simpleton.
And don’t knock chat rooms. I met my wife in a chat room. We’ve known each other for 7 years and been married for 3 and 1/2. Thanks for playing.
AND NEIL FOR BOISE:
You’re no bed of roses either. I’ve never understood Americans who hate America so much but continue to live here and just bitch and moan. If you hate our homeland so much, why there hell don’t you just go live somewhere else? “America: love it or leave it” is a tired and over-used cliche. But it’s more true now than it has ever been. There are over 220 countries in this world. Be my guest…...
Tom from Denver, loving America as much as ever and offended by some of the crap on this site as much as ever.
Back to the email platform.
It is unfourtunate that i was bornin such a time where truth cannot be revealed, because the media does not want the truth. they want a nice pretty fake reality. I am not yet an adult, so my opion on this matter may not be acnoknowledged. however, the matter still remains. how can we live with these fake elections, fake news and fake tv?
Go on Michael Moore!!
I fear America ‘s falling back in a kind of McCarthy era: Artists on stage are cut off or - like Natalie and her Chicks - are blacklistet. Is this the way of democracy an freedom you’d like to bring to Iraq? In this case I really have to hope the Iraq’s population will resist America’s invasion!! Shame on “Governor” Bush and his supporters. They should be taken to the international tribunal at Den Haag. But this is in Old Europe, which seems to be a part of “the axis of the evil” - unfortunately I’m really disillusioned at my old friendship to America.
If anybody in America wants to get off his Dixie Chicks CDs, me and a big crowd of friends would really like to take them!!! - Have you ever considered what happened in Germany at 1938, 9th of November at the “Reichskristallnacht”? Think about it and don’t dare to damn anybody who’s calling out his point of view!!!
Well now I have good reason to boycott watching Bowling for Columbine. Thanks a lot, Michael Moore!
It was high time for everybody to hear something like what mr. moore said. my heart goes with him supporting every word he said.God bless good and BRAVE people! Go everybody to watch his documentary film!
The despair, feigned insouciance, outright hatred, sincere and thoughtful concern we have all thusfar revealed with our verbiage on this forum are good for at least one thing…an easy hit-list for extremist agents of either side. Those who chose to remain incognito know full well they too will be found when the time comes. And you infiltrators from this Banana Republic’s Central Incineration Agencies, well, thanks for your unsuccessful attempts to divert attention from the crux of the problem the rest of us are trying to hash out. You others who think wrapping yourselves in flags, pasting them all over your gas-suckin’ SUVs will immunize you from the coming dictatorial takeover…think again. Then in the aftermath of that takeover, if you’re not afraid of the ineluctable violent reaction that will naturally boomerang back at ya…Forget about it. You will be living in a state of fear you’d never have thought possible coming from once peaceful people then cornered and forced to take down as many as they can if they have to go down. Hey, the rest of the people of the world HATE our arrogant regime’s guts…not we the people…yet. Give ‘em time though…let Dubbya invade the next, “terrorist country”, on his list. See what happens. If the world is not at this very moment galvanizing almost subconsciously to counteract, using any means available to them, then, after GW sends his coerced volunteers into another genocidal mission…well, he and his henchmen just might find themselves in a corner they hadn’t planned on. Then all itchy fingers will be ready to push the last-resort buttons because they’ll know without a shadow of doubt that Dubbya won’t hesitate a minute to press his buttons. That’s what all of this is REALLY coming to, you idiots now OCCUPYING Washington! What the hell will plausible deniability matter then, you fake, pseudo-cowboys?
Saudi Media Blast Saddam
Staff Writer
RIYADH, 6 April 2003
A peacenik’s Creed:
I don’t support this war. I don’t support Saddam, or any ruthless dictator. I don’t support political assassination as a strategic foreign policy. I don’t support unprovoked “pre-emptive” attacks, even on a country with a “bad man” at the helm. I don’t support the long-term nuclear contaminating a foreign country with depleted uranium. I don’t support killing civilians, “our” troops, or the young boys of a non-voluntary, conscript army in another country. I don’t support “Hitler comparisons” as a rhetorical strategy to demonize an opponent. I don’t support disbanding or ignoring the UN, an organization born out of war, whose mandate was to promote peace. I don’t support media complicity in questionable government policy. I don’t support name-calling and the disintegration of rational dialogue between dissenting voices. I don’t support global imperialism in the name of “global democracy”. I don’t support a state of “perpetual war” in the name of “combatting terror”. I don’t support “honouring the dead” by increasing the body count. I don’t support suspensions of human rights in countries founded on those same principles.
I DO support critical dialogue. I support an ongoing quest for truth. I support basic human rights. I support helping people who ASK for help, rather than assuming I know what is “good for them”. I support sharing material wealth and time-resources with those less privileged than I. I support peace and diplomacy. I support taking ownership of the physical, environmental, and moral effects of one’s lifestyle. I support a climate where dissent is not seen as ‘unpatriotic,’ but a foundational legacy of free countries. I support people who can, with dignity, admit they have been wrong. I support examining and addressing international grievances against my country’s foreign policy. I support imagination and creativity, and eschew following ‘the party line’, simply because it is ‘the party line’. I support the moral imperative of those who are educated and passionate to assist in educating others. I support a posture of humility, where I admit I do not have all of the answers, and may, in fact be wrong.
Thanks for this story; we were all cheering at home when Moore spoke, and I called my younger son in Cambridge, where he and his friends were all yelling with joy. You GO, Michael, you sure do speak for me.
Sam, sounds like you’re the one who’s full of hate.
“Stupid Mick”.
You base your “opinion” that the majority of Americans are for this war on what fact?
You’re wrong. Bush is evil. You’re wrong and in the long run, you know it and we are all right.
You’re lucky you aren’t here right now with your fucking Mick comment because you’d lose a few teeth you fuck!
Browsing the resposes to the article i found this one “MM should be taken out and shot” near the top. This comment is basically proving MM right, in all that Bowling for Columbine stands for. Ignorant people like he or she who posted that comment should learn to think before making a fool of themselves. As for everyone else who has bashed Michael Moore and actually knows what they are talking about, then good for you, you are most certainly entitled to your own opinion. I ask you though, where does that opinion come from? The media. The media and the fear that it installs in the minds of many. Great speech Michael Moore, and many share your views.
Michael Moore may just have rescued some of America’s reputation in the eyes of the world.
mainstream media sure has done good job turning american people into american sheeple. But for those sheeple who bad mouth michael moore for openly expressing his political beliefs are on their way to escaping the wolves.
Liloan,
The life just returned to this forum. Hope my friends have read your post as well.
Thank you!
Liloanstitch,
Respectfully, what proof do you have of your statements or are they just opinions?
My brother was murdered with a baseball bat and I feel handguns are still causing blood to flow in the streets—my personal opinion. Handguns laws, yes. Abolishment, no.
The cops here in Boise are responsible for 80% of the hommicide deaths by firearms in seven or the eight shootings in the past six year. Goddamn cowboys. Five of these shoots were explained away as being, “the vicitim was suicidal.”
Sometimes I don’t know which is worse. When you have people that can settle things without a gun, it’s a sign of a maturing, developing country.
The rate we’re going, cops and criminals is definitely backwards, especially when our fascists leaders are the worst examples.
All of this obsessing over whether Michael Moore’s film is “true” or not puzzles me.
He made a MOVIE. In its “form”, it most closely resembled the(somewhat artificial) category the Academy calls “documentary.”
THAT was the category THEY put it in. And then they gave it the award.
The “conventions” of the documentary genre have as much to do with the use of narration, interviews, and on-site filming, as they do with “truth claims.” Perhaps if there were a category for “mockumentary,” they would have put “Bowling for Columbine” there…but no such category exists.
Is DaVinci’s painting, “the Mona Lisa” TRUE? The question doesn’t make sense, does it? That’s because ART is about REPRESENTATION.
Moore paints with the palate of the world, and to be sure, he takes liberties in realizing his vision.
When Disney makes an animated movie called “the last rainforest,” where one of their agendas is to put forward the thesis that “bulldozing greenery isn’t always cool,” do people start yelling and screaming about how “animals can’t really talk,” and therefore the whole rainforest thesis is bunk?
Why are the people who are so “outraged” and indignant about Moore’s documentary stretching the truth not EQUALLY up in arms about the mess of lies we’re sold as “the NEWS?”
Truth is largely in the eye of the beholder. If I have the critical awareness and imagination necessary, I can extract “truth” even from our corrupted News these days.
Thank you, In These Times, for a fresh perspective on the Oscar night: it was a relief to find. To Mr. Moore, I agree With Richard From Toronto; If you ever decide on a trip, we would be greatly honoured to have you here in Canada. To all who posted, thank you for the variety of opinions, even if some were less than savoury. My especial thanks to Tom from Colorado for his calm and rational arguments for an opinion that has taken a great deal of critisim in the alternative media, and to all those who responded to him in a similar manner. America is going through a very dark time now, and I pray that peace and good sense will ultimately prevail.
I do have a few questions:
1) why is it so wrong to be liberal in the US?
2) why is it necessary to disparage a person’s character, image, looks, or other intangibles for the sake of a personal opinion? Those who react so denegrate their own argument, do they not?
3) Once this war is over, what (or who) is next?
Let true peace begin here. It begins with openness, rational debate, and willingness to listen to another.
“I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it.”
Voltaire
Peace to all, and good sense return soon
Hey, Lilo whatever…You can quote your gun-lobby skewed publication statistics. They do not reflect the truth. Statistics are, as is patriotism, the last refuge of scoundrels. The color of your skin is the real determining factor in how firearms are used and who feels safer bearing them from their own vantage point. To you, all persons who’ve been convicted are undoubtedly guilty. But the truth is that the penal-law enforcement-prosecutorial judirical complex does not care about a person’s guilt or innocence. They just need bodies to fill their ever-expanding prison space being developed in lieu of affordable housing, health care and a plethora of other more people-oriented social programs. If you add the outlay of taxpayer dollars which is dedicated to military to the law-enforcement, security state, secret agency, penal constructions outlays, there’s not much left to even pave your roads properly, let alone invest people’s money on people. The judicial-prosecutorial-law enforcement system only wants to WIN it’s cases. They don’t care if the real criminal is still at large as long as their image is enhanced by the speedy capture, conviction and incarceration of the most easily detested and impoverished citizen. Their chances of victory are raised in direct proportion to the fear any accused can arouse in a jury. The poorer and therefore less able to present a, “respectable”, exterior is the accused, the more readily is he perceived to be a priori-guilty. And thn you speak of witnesses. Just one or two witnesses can help convict one of those I speak of. If that is acceptable, then, flying saucers, alien abduction, and all the, “fringe”, testimonies of millions of witnesses, if tested in a court of so-called LAW would be more than enough to prove beyond a doubt that extraterrestrials are real. So, keep your firearms and delude yourself about your security. When you’re being, “beamed up”, into some alien craft…let me know how effective your, “peice”, proved to be. Otherwise, tune into WBAI.org and listen to what real people are all about. Becoming a decent human being seems to be the most difficult acheivement possible these days. You are living-dead proof of this maxim.
>>>Tom from Denver, loving America as much as ever and offended by some of the crap on this site as much as ever.>>>
Well Tom, I didn
Hey, anonymous Mr. America, that old, “America, love it or leave it”, crap just doesn’t wash anymore. America is not about idiots like yourself who cannot even follow simple instructions unless they are orders from the Fascist morons who are destroying the country I love. But I’m just wasting my time responding to your obviously limited abilities to discern the difference between trying to change what’s wrong with one’s country, (to hopefully get it back on the right track), and to blindly accept it’s decomposition and destruction without at least loving it enough to guide it in it’s time of troubles. You don’t even realize that your favorite song, most likely, “God Bless America”, exhorts all citizens to not only, “stand beside her”, but especially, to, “guide her through the night with the light from above”. Calling me a punk and telling me to get out only demonstrates just how much YOU despise this country. Just how anti-American you are that you’d allow this great land and the diversity of it’s wonderful people to sink into the stinking quicksand of an obviously DEATH oriented bunch of Fascists who’ve never had to put on a uniform, as you probably never have, in hopes that you were, indeed defending Freedom and Democracy. People like you will never learn that when it comes to a great nation, the worst form of alleged expressions of love are those which don’t mind watching as the loved-one destroys herself through some of her people’s sick ideas concerning, “The National Interest”, and destructive environmental agendas mean in REAL life. So, call me what you will and tell me where to go. Water off a duck’s back, fool. Maybe you’d change your tune if you were reincarnated as one of the cormorants, sea otters, and other innumerable species whose innocent bodies were exterminated by the thousands as a result of oil spills such as the Exxon Valez. At that time, George I also thought it was in the, “National Interest”, that the pipeline remain open and to hell with that environmental disaster or any future, inevitable ones our rubber-stamp media doesn’t even bother tellings us about anymore.
You rock, Dom!
One of the reasons NYC and it’s burroughs are one of the most diverse places in the world.
Keep up the good fight, brutha!
Tom from Denver, you are the reason peope tell me they hate Denver when they move to Idaho.
I love my country, and I want to see it progress towards peace, freedom, diversity and prosperity. Oh, what a horrible thing. You “bleeding heart” liberals! You know who else had a bleeding heart? Jesus.
The people in power now want to reverse affirmative action, eliminate Title 9, drill for oil in wildlife refuges. Oh, and cover up 9/11 by pinning it on Sadaam when Saudi Arabia is the country that really has been launching attacks on us for 10 years. Forgot about that one!
And you don’t seem to care about that. Go, Rah! Screw civil rights! Screw those who oppose my opinion!
Sounds like YOU don’t love your country.
What the powers that be want to say is “Let’s keep the niggers down, lets kill the towel-heads, keep bitches bare-foot and pregnant, and play golf. Of course we won’t SAY that, we’re supposed to be religious.
All the civil rights protests of the 60’s—were you throwing bottles at them? Don’t like people standing up an injustice? Then YOU move. You move to one of these nations we’re supposed to be liberating and make things better.
I’ll stay on the homefront speaking out against people like you who can’t come up with anything more intelligent for an argument than get out. YOU get out. This country would be far, far, far, far, better off without narrow-minded people like you.
FIGHT PATRIOTISM!
-Peace
“Having examined crime statistics from Denmark and the U.S., I find that the homicide rate for 2001 is 5.61 per 100,000 people in the U.S. It is 3.72/100,000 in Denmark. In previous years, it was even closer. You are slightly safer from homicide in Denmark, but hardly a difference that would prove higher gun ownership rates in the U.S. are causing blood to flow in the streets as MM would have you believe.
The total crime rate in Denmark is more than twice that of the U.S. Now someone could probably make a “documentary” using this statistic and leaving out others, maybe a few scenes that show Danish prisons overflowing (this could be totally fabricated according to M.M.‘s method) to try to make the point that Denmark is an outlaw society. I would hope that if someone pointed out to me that the scene with the Danish prisons was fabricated and that a lot of other statistics were left out that would show that the greater crime rate in Denmark is due to a lot of lesser crimes, I would realize that I’d been had, no matter what my preconceived notions about Denmark were.”
And yet the sun rises. Our prisons are in fact overflowing, but our solution is NOT to instigate a “3 strikes you’re out law”. That law has to be Clintons biggest blunder, though I’m sure you’ll disagree. The cost of inmates and their rehabilitation is the issue, not how many inmates me stuff into the prisons. Oh and on our murder rate…sure we have 5 per 100000 but that is all we have at all. you have 10000 per 280.000.000 in handguns alone. That’s 1 per 28.000 mister in handguns alone, so whoah. Your streets are way safer. And speaking on misrepresentation, our police homocide division have a near 100 % rate of finding the actual murderer. Last year had 2 cases still open, but both were solved this year, which makes 2002 a 100 % year. Can you beat that per chance? I’ll take my increased burglaries over your 1:28.000 handgun slayings any day of the week, and I think a lot of your fellow americans would too. They just don’t have the opportunity.
Martin Hansen.
P.S. And you really confirmed my worst suspicions, you were commenting on a film you haven’t even seen. What was it I wrote? Intellectual dishonesty, it really is you.
Moore has been an outspoken defender of the little people for decades. I applaud his stance, although I do not always agree with his views.
I encourage people to see his movies and other works before criticizing him. Doing otherwise can only be considered prejudice.
Bowling for Columbine is his best work to date, so start there and work backwards.
I think someone used the term “limosine liberal”. I’d never heard that, but find it funny. I tend to think of myself as a Econo Car Conservative. I’m all for Conservatism.
Conserve our resources, money, health, and rights. Pro-firearm, pro-death penalty, pro-choice and pro-1st amendment.
I don’t think you can lump all of Moore’s supporters into one catergory. What you can do is slander and cast aspertions at people, and one visible fat man in particular that would stand in solidarity with you if you needed it.
The Bush’s of the world are not going to heed any cry for help you may issue unless it helps to line their pockets. Unless you have a PAC you aren’t even on GW’s radar.
GW is a Christian right? Did Jesus wage war against his foes? Think about it.
Bush-Bin Laden link explored:
http://emperors-clothes.com/news/bushladen.htm
If your support the troops, put your money where your mouth is:
http://fisherhouse.org/
A guy said something about Bush’s Grades… here’s Yale on that:
http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=2636
Article about how long ago this thing was planned:
http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/2003/01/27/news/local/5025024.htm
And finally a quote:
“Every society honors its live conformists and its dead troublemakers.”
-Mignon McLaughlin
Peace
I can’t believe someone just accused Bush of being responsible for 9/11. (Linda Z)
I am out of here for good.
You’re all a bunch of dipshits!
I am just curious as to how old Neil from Boise is since he spoke on the Civil Rights movement.
I grew up in the south in the early sixties & can tell you that violence was on both sides or haven’t you ever heard of the Black Panther’s?
Perhaps we need a new forum since this one is running amouk with half truths that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
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