On day five of the war, it was supremely ironic that network television viewers had to tune into the 75th Annual Academy Awards ceremony to hear voices that questioned the wisdom of the Bush administration. Rumblings of protest began on Saturday. At the Independent Spirit Awards (the award ceremony for independent films) in Santa Monica, California, Maggie Gyllenhaal, the star of… return to article
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Reader Comments (2170)As a founder of America stated. “Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel” It is obvious that those who want to silence Michael Moore don’t belong in America because American freedom allows us to say any thing we want to, unlike Iran, IRAQ, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Peoples Republic of China etc. If you want silence Michael Moore go to the aformentioned countries where you can silence unloved speech. America Love it or leave it!!!!!!
Posted by Dan Bryant on Apr 10, 2003 at 8:40 PM Top Ten Things Iraq’s Information Minister Has To Say About The War
10. “We’re pulling down the statues of Saddam to have them cleaned”9. “Don’t believe that stuff you see on CNN…or NBC, CBS, ABC, Fox or MSNBC”
8. “If you ask me who the winner is, it depends on what your definition of ‘is’ is”
7. “Iraqi television is off the air because we didn’t want you to have to sit through ‘Becker’”
6. “Do you know of any job openings for a lying weasel?”
5. “Wolf Blitzer and I are engaged”
4. “Iraqis are in the streets celebrating Cher’s 40 fabulous years in show business”
3. “Incoming!”
2. “Saddam’s not dead—he’s just out with a case of the shingles”
1. “War? What war?”
Posted by hahahaha on Apr 10, 2003 at 10:16 PM Posted on Thu, Apr. 10, 2003
France’s Chirac Hails Fall of Saddam
Associated PressPARIS - France on Thursday hailed the fall of Saddam Hussein, but President Jacques Chirac added that full sovereignty must be returned to Iraq as soon as possible and “with the legitimacy of the United Nations.”
“It is now necessary to create the conditions which will give the Iraqi people its dignity in newfound freedom,” a statement from the French president’s office said.
The most urgent matter at hand is to secure the country so humanitarian aid can get through, it added.
France, which led the effort to avoid war by the U.S.-led coalition, has said it considers the American and British troops on the ground to be the best way to secure Iraq. However, it wants a central role for the United Nations in the process of reconstruction.
“As soon as possible, after the necessary phase of securing (the country), Iraq must return to its full sovereignty in a stabilized region with the legitimacy of the United Nations,” the president’s office said.
President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair agreed over the weekend that the United Nations should have a “vital role” in rebuilding Iraq. However, no one has clearly defined what that means.
“We are at a decisive moment in the history of Iraq,” French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin said, adding that with the fall of Saddam “a somber page is turning.”
“Together, we must build peace in Iraq, and for France that means a central role for the United Nations,” the minister’s statement said.
He added that peace in the Middle East region must also be pursued, “through a determined
search to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.”
Posted by in line for $$$$ on Apr 10, 2003 at 10:38 PM Germany Targets Islamic Group in Nationwide Raid
Thu April 10, 2003 09:08 AM ET
BERLIN (Reuters) - German police raided more than 80 buildings across the country in a nationwide crackdown on suspected members of a banned Islamic group on Thursday, seizing computers, bank account details and documents.
The raids in 11 states across the country began at 6 a.m., the Interior Ministry said in a statement. It did not say whether there were any arrests.Germany banned the 50-year-old Islamist Hizb ut-Tahrir organization in January, accusing it of promoting anti-Jewish sentiment in universities and elsewhere. It was the third such group to be banned in Germany under anti-terror legislation adopted after the September 11 attacks on U.S. cities.
“Today’s measures are a clear warning to everyone that we will act against violent propaganda and anti-Semitic agitation… This organization wishes to sow hate and violence,” said Interior Minister Otto Schily who ordered the raid.
Schily has said the organization denies the right of Israel to exist and promotes the use of violence, including the killing of Jews and their expulsion from Israel.
He has said the organization was particularly active on university campuses and noted that three of the September 11 hijackers had been part of an Islamic group active at Hamburg university, where they had studied.
Hizb ut-Tahrir became well known in Germany after staging a rally at Berlin’s Technical University in October at which the main speaker made anti-American comments. Members of Germany’s extreme right-wing NPD were also in attendance.
The ban in January coincided with police raids on more than 25 buildings in five federal states, including Berlin.
Hizb ut-Tahrir (Party of Liberation) was founded in 1953 in Jerusalem by Taqiuddin al-Nabhani and wants a return to the Islamic Caliphate that prevailed during the early rise of Islam.
Its Web site (www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org) says it seeks to replace secular leaders in Arab and Muslim countries with Islamic governments, but says it pursues peaceful methods.
Twenty-five people, including three Britons, are currently on trial in Cairo accused of trying to overthrow the Egyptian government and of spreading propaganda for the Hizb ut-Tahrir, which is banned in Egypt but not in Britain.
The other groups that have been banned in Germany are the Palestinian Al-Aqsa charity and the Kalifatsstaat (Caliphate State).
Posted by well what do you know? on Apr 10, 2003 at 10:40 PM Schroeder stridently opposed military action to disarm Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. In an about-turn last week, however, he endorsed Saddam’s removal; and on Wednesday, he hailed a “probable and welcome victory” by U.S.-led forces.
Posted by say what? on Apr 10, 2003 at 10:44 PM Left-wing Conspiracy Theorists: When we find banned weapons in Iraq (which we will) will you quit your bitching about this being a “war for oil?” And when it comes out that France has been selling Iraq weapons, will you get off your naive globalist tirades about how we should heed the advice our pussy “allies?” It’s already clear that the Iraqis are glad we invaded, so you’ve lost on that point. I’ll check back here in about a month when ALL of your predictions have been disproven and see what you have to say then. Hopefully that pathetic Dom will have stumbled onto some more conspiracy theories to explain it all by then.
Posted by Tom on Apr 11, 2003 at 3:02 AM ...for those who are using the current glee of the Iraqi people as evidence that this war is just ....remember
the only reason Saddam gained power in the first place was because the U.S. supported him
the suffering of the Iraqi people (read: torture) for the last few decades is blood on america’s hands…
sure the Iraqis are celebrating…and who can blame them?
...just remember it doesn’t take long for ‘liberators’ to become ‘occupiers’
the u.s. gov’t did not invest an initial $75B. (with many more billions to follow—-for the so-called “reconstruction” of course) just to ‘liberate’ the iraqi people!...what? after 35 years the plight of the Iraqi’s is suddenly tugging at the heartstrings of america
bullshit
stay tuned
let’s see how this so called ‘liberation’ manifests
should be fascinating…but oh, the u.s. won’t be watching of course…anyone remember the taliban??? anyone realise that they’ve regained control over most of Af.? anyone care? nope. the show is over….no more bombing to watch….
unfortunately this disaster will end in a similar way….within a few months the majority of americans will simply stop paying attention….
Posted by S. Djurakov on Apr 11, 2003 at 3:08 AM Mynah Byrd from Anytown, USA>>>The thugs in Sudan are cut from the same cloth. They be laughing their asses off when they they hear amendments and peace acts have been passed against them. ooooo…an amendment. I’‘m scaaaaarrrrrred. Oooooo…..a peace act.>>>
I guess we will see what happens on April 21, 2003 after the passage of the first six months of the Act have passed:
The Sudan Peace Act (enacted on October 21, 2003) immediately authorizes aid to the south, with or without Khartoum’s approval, in the amount of $300 million over the next three years. . . . [It] requires the president (of the U.S.) to certify every six months (to Congress) that Khartoum and the rebel Sudanese People’s Liberation Army are negotiating in good faith [and] specifies four sanctions against Khartoum if the president certifies that Khartoum is not negotiating in good faith, or has ‘unreasonably interfered with humanitarian efforts.’
The sanctions include: opposing international loans and credits to Khartoum by vetoing all IMF and World Bank loans; downgrading diplomatic relations; denying Khartoum access to oil revenues; and seeking a UN Security Council resolution to impose an arms embargo on Khartoum. [The act] also requires the administration to report on oil financing [of the government by foreign corporations], acts of genocide, and on the obstruction of aid delivery by Khartoum.
My guess is that the Bush Administration wonít raise a finger to help the victims in Sudan.>>>Mynah adds: And you think he (Bush) doesn’t care about the Iraqi people? Well I think he does, but he cares first about yours and my security.>>>
I believe that youíre confusing the current resident of the White House with someone who has delusions of adequacy.
http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq36.html
Apparently Iím not the only one:
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14774Of course, perhaps he takes after his mom (from an ABC morning talk show):
“But why should we hear about body bags and deaths and how many, what day it’s going to happen, and how many this or what do you suppose? Oh, I mean, it’s, not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that? And watch him suffer.”
Posted by linda z on Apr 11, 2003 at 3:48 AM OKay, the United States is not the only country in the world. However, it is scarey how many Americans dont really belive that.
Do you really belive this war is about de-throning a horrible leader? who really didint seem to be that big of a threat when the American governemnt sold weapons to them to fight Iran? Do you not think that you would have support from at least one or two of your biggest allies ( Canada, France??) no way b/c canadian live in igloos and dont know how the world works and the french are just a bunch of ..whatever stereotype you want to give to them) well how about this try going to country wearing an american falg as a patch see what kind of greeting you get….. it will probably involve you getting your wallet stolen or you getting the fuck beaten out of you.
I said to an american once when we were discussing about the war, America is not the only country in the world you know, that person go so frusterated he only responded with, “we should be”...I couldnt say a word…. I AM NOT SAYING THAT AMERICANS ARE BAD, b/c I knwo the bulk of americans do not support the war, this is only directed to the misguided ones who watch to much CNN and belive everything the Government tells them.
Peace always
Peter
Posted by Peter on Apr 11, 2003 at 5:19 AM Tom from: You obviously can only read what assures you of your opinion. Try now to use your brains and read what the poster just below your last post has written and all the others before. I do not need to repeat. Knowledge is gained by information we did not have before. So try to understand what some people with other opinions have to say.
Anybody can understand that people are cheering, after they had been attacked. No matter if they like the British and US or not. Just the sheer fact of the seize of the bombing would make me cheer. As you can see on this forum, every nation has people with different opinions. Everybody though is glad to get rid of Saddam. Many just don¥t know of their future. That is why many in fact aren¥t cheering. CNN showed a British soldier “teaching” a young boy how to smile. So the fact is, many of the troops were rather surprized of the lack of people smiling.
As to your statement about “war for oil” I agree with you. It would have given the war a cause. I would welcome it, if you could state one. I haven¥t found one, yet. Again, read on the other posters, if you want to know what I mean.
As to your “pussy allies” I guess you don¥t know, France is not a Nato member. Maybe it never occured to you, other nations do have their own foreign policies and contacts. Some are even historical.
And do try to read up on history. There are lots of examples of “the rise and fall” of empires. After all, Iraq was “left over” by the Ottoman Empire. It might give you a hint, what all these people, you don¥t understand, are talking about.
Posted by blue on Apr 11, 2003 at 9:52 AM Neil from Boise wrote on 4/10/03:
Mynah Byrd,
I believe it’s that kind of thinking that brought 9/11 about.
And, of course, Bush and his buddies knew and had this thing in the works all along. If you don’t believe me, there’s tons and tons of articles, NY Times, BBC, Reuters that point this out…....I’m afraid you couldn’t be more wrong on this. I’ll continue later. Must…...sleeppppppppppppppp
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Apr 11, 2003 at 10:25 AM Great article! Wasn’t aware only 5 people booing, or Bono’s lyric alteration! This is what journalism should be, the truth and not celebrity-loving gossip!!
Posted by Dan Byrne on Apr 11, 2003 at 1:04 PM Putin, Chirac and Schroeder seek to carve out Iraq role despite US gains
Russian President Vladimir Putin hosts the leaders of Germany and France for “peace camp” talks Friday aiming to carve out a role in post-war Iraq, possibly through the United Nations. Putin, along with French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, has sought a central role for the UN, a position that has been treated with open skepticism in Washington. The talks also come after Moscow was dealt a blow by one of Washington’s top military hawks, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, on Thursday, who suggested that Russia should now forget about ever winning back its debts from Iraq. Moscow had fought a furious diplomatic campaign against the war in a bid to preserve Russian companies’ rights to lucrative oil contracts and stay in touch with Baghdad’s Soviet-era debt. The debt stands at around eight billion dollars and has grown to some 16 billion, if interest payments are included.
Posted by hehe on Apr 11, 2003 at 1:12 PM Peter
Canada is a neighbor & we love them but have you seen their military?
And France? We’d just end up saving them again! LOL!
Posted by Hmmmmm on Apr 11, 2003 at 1:27 PM Linda Z
still hanging in there hoping someone will hear her cries for attention as she posts article after article that justify her way of thinking.
so sad.
Posted by Linda on Apr 11, 2003 at 1:33 PM On March 25th, “mike sux” said that “We always been in war with Saddam since the mid 80’s.” He might see the truth (and the light) if he takes his head out of his arse!! There is video footage of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Hussein, and of CIA agents in Baghdad to hand-deliver satellite pictures of Iranian positions to Saddam’s “regime”. A lot of the dangerous technology he has, he got from us, the US of A. Now suddenly, he and his “regime” have become so dangerous that we need to invade without delay? The people who oppose this war may be “hippies”, but at least they don’t have their heads up where the sun don’t shine!!!!!
Posted by RP on Apr 11, 2003 at 6:35 PM I am glad you report the truth, versus the lies the puppeted national media says. I am in full support of Michael Moore and its sad that some people are too dense to realize that it is a free country and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Furthermore, you must be an idiot to start a blacklist…. Did people not learn about the Red Channels scandal and how ridicilous and anti-american that is? I hope you people realize that you’re the ones that are being anti-american, and childish. Just because what they say isn’t in accordance to your beliefs doesn’t make them lesser of a person… nothing makes either one’s opinion superior than the other.
Posted by Proud American on Apr 11, 2003 at 9:18 PM To all who’ve contributed intelligently to this site, I thank you for illuminating my own lack of knowledge about some issues. I also thank those who are aware that many people revel in either the idea of someone else’s death in an abstract sense or the psychotic ones who actually do love death itself, consciously…I thank those for reaffirming my faith in simple human kindheartedness. We must understand the reality that there will always exist a powerful minority whose wealth or obeisence to wealth perpetuate the assurance that WAR will be it’s own self-fulfilling prophecy. For it is not enough to merely have the will to slaughter others for profit but it is necessary that enough people support the idea that WAR is inevitable and justifiable to endorse it and be willing to vilify and crucify those who know war is NOT inevitable. This distractive polarization within the citizenry then becomes a sort of human misdirection stunt with which the stage magician is able to amaze and befuddle his uninitiated audience. It is as ancient as civilization itself, this need for some to lord it over the many and the trick of divide and conquer arose mutually with the rise of the city-state. Unfortunately, Darwin was dead wrong. Natural selection does not guarantee the survial of the fittest, for now we have reached the stage when that natural species, man, is about to guarantee his anihilation instead. Ah, but the camera NEVER lies, but people do. I’m sure the NRA knows what I mean.
Posted by Dom on Apr 12, 2003 at 3:25 AM >>>Linda from ?: Linda Z still hanging in there hoping someone will hear her cries for attention as she posts article after article that justify her way of thinking. so sad.>>>
So rather than make a refutation of any of the facts in my most recent post, Linda from ? latches unto ye olde ad hominem attack. so sad.
Posted by linda z on Apr 12, 2003 at 3:39 AM Wow, we have some imbedded reporters on this site too! They’ve been to Iraq and have also lived in countries that have been, “liberated”, as well. They really seem to know what’s what over there. (Goebells had thousands of feet of film that, “proved”, just how thrilled the people of the countries Hitler invaded and occupied were, too). But IT couldn’t happen HERE! Judging by some of the brilliant, insightful, profoundly reasoned, objective, absolutely certain and confident, exultantly-I-told-you-so-tone these corporate media- hypnotized graspers at straws now assume, I guess Dubbya can cross off one of his, “axis of evil”, terrorist collaboratting sovereign nations and go after the next one on his hit list. They’re probably chompin’ at the bit, sittin’ on their couches, downin’ some brewskis, waitin’ for a hint as to who it will be next…Syria? Iran? North Korea?, how about California or New York? They ain’t with us, so they must be against us, therefore, let’s send in the Marines. Fine logic, that, and why not? Who’s to stop him? Just so long as most of you out there can catch it on Fox and get the REAL skinny. Keep watchin’ and reportin’ back here ‘cause we, “pussies and punks”, don’t ever get it. We’re just too damn anti-American and non-patriotic, cry baby know-nothings. How the hell can people like me know ANYTHING if we keep on reading and digging into philosophical stuff and all? TV is where it’s at. If I can’t believe Bill O’Reilly, or Chris Matthews, or all the other motor-mouths, I must have a lot of dead brain cells or sumptin’!
Posted by Dom on Apr 12, 2003 at 3:58 AM Here is a free history lesson. George W. Bush is using a play right out of the Nazi playbook:
“Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don’t want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
—Hitler’s #2 Man, Hermann Goering
Posted by an observer of White House and media "news" on Apr 12, 2003 at 4:23 AM Dear Linda Z, If you scroll down to nearly the bottom of this page, you will find the Linda I was referring to a few days ago. She has a message for you, I think…almost as elaborate and eloquent in it’s own emotionally handicapped way as the one she directed at me. On another note, I know why all these wrapped in the flag types can’t help swallowing whatever their fearless leader, his Capitol Gang, and their retinue of media sycophants tell them to believe. It’s easy…they have to believe it because they’d be just like THEM if they could. Think of it: committing any crime you want and never paying the price or taking responsibility for it…killing anybody who doesn’t think or act or look like you at the drop of a hat…rackin’ in the bucks by the bucketful without breakin’ a sweat…not having to say you’re sorry for ANYTHING…never having to tell the truth…Well, to make it short-to be able to break the Ten Commandments with impunity, at will, but still have the temerity to call yourself a Good Christian. Now, how can you top that, eh? Oh yeah, all that, and havin’ an entire, “ol’ boy network”, to cover your ass if you go too far or get caught sayin’ something when you thought an independent media camera wasn’t lookin’. What do you think, is that about it? C’mon now, you can take the masks off now, uncle Dubbya’s got your backs!
Posted by Dom on Apr 12, 2003 at 4:26 AM I am still waiting to see the evidence of the Saddam Hussein-Al Qaeda link and the weapons of mass destruction. Either Saddam was a responsible tyrant in not using the chemical and biological weapons or they don’t exist. I doubt Saddam Hussein was so responsible and humane.
It is a fact that this war is illegal. It is a fact that the U.S. facilitated the rise to power of Hussein and the Bath Party in their overthrow of General Qassem in 1963 because he nationalized Iraq’s oil. It is a fact that the U.S. provided Hussein with the chemical and biological weapons technology as payback against Ayatollah Khomeini’s overthrow of the Shah of Iran and the American embassy hostage taking in 1979. It is a fact that Saddam Hussein was an ally of the United States until 1990 when he invaded Kuwait. Prior to that, the U.S. government had no sympathy for the oppression of the Iraqi people.
It is a fact that the United States supports the dictatorships and plutocratic monarchies in the Arab world in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Algeria, Yemen, Qatar, Egypt, United Arab Emirates, etc. and is not advocating regime change and democracy by force in those countries. It is a fact that 15 out of 19 of the 9/11 hijakers were Saudis but there were no Iraqis. It is a fact that Osama Bin Laden is a Saudi and still has not been captured. It is a fact that the Wahabi Islamic sect in Saudi Arabia is the biggest sponsor of Al Qaeda. Why are we not invading Saudi Arabia given that it is the biggest sponsor of terrorism?
I want to see the conservative “patriots” use their thinking skills to change history and reality to refute these facts. Given the facts, the motive of the war as the liberation of Iraqis and the war on terrorism is not credible nor convincing.
Posted by an observer of White House and media "news" on Apr 12, 2003 at 4:30 AM I was very excited to see that the jeers I heard during Moore’s speech were that of stagehands. While the camera showed some actors looking a bit squeamish during the speech (Brody in particular) no one the camera showed during the speech seemed to be absolutely put off by Mr. Moore’s ‘anti-americanism’. I couldn’t understand where these ‘boos’ were coming from. This made it quite clear.
It all seems so contradictive, America is supposed to be about free speech, so let’s blacklist the Dixie Chicks. I should like to point out, and I quote, “some men rise to greatness, and some receive it as a graduation gift.” This was Robin Williams in his live on broadway show in reference to George W. Bush. He made virtually the same remarks as Mr. Moore, yet was not chastised for them. The American majority may want to blacklist their entertainers, taking them for granted. Canadians however, (at least ones I know) will continue to stand behind everone’s right to opinion. Which seem to be less popular when they are fact-based. I know not ALL Americans want entertainers blacklisted, and I only hope the majority will support everyone’s right to free speech.p.s. Please define “unacceptable views.”
Posted by Troy Polson on Apr 12, 2003 at 4:41 AM Well, I see you caught the, “Linda from?” I just mentioned while I was informing you about her lastest insightful dissertation, LindaZ. So, I’m glad we got that straight. I’ll reiterate my thoughts about you, LindaZ…I can almost feel the vigor of your intellect and empathy in your soul. You and a few other passionate individualist, iconoclaststic, possibly contrarian spirits are a true delight- bright beacons on a treacherous, foggy coast, a la Mike Moore. What all the other chick-parrots who spew the reconstituted, censored pap they’ve just swallowed and then can’t wait to inundate this forum with can’t understand is that places such as this site are but a shining, isolated flotsam of TRUTH in a sea of fascist mediocre mendacity and prevarication. I hear you. We tread upon similar roads. Don’t ever stop so long as this thing keeps going, please. The truth seems about ready to be forcibly drowned. Voices such as yours are therefore the more precious and necessary. What the OTHERS can’t quite comprehend is that WE don’t have the same luxury they do. When we write what we believe to the op eds of most corporate media outlets, somehow, the cracks become canyons in which every single letter I’ve personally written, at least, get, “disappeared”.
Posted by Dom on Apr 12, 2003 at 4:50 AM Has anyone heard about when the elections in Iraq are going to be held? Has the Bush administration made any announcements on this issue? I bet you that they will say that the Iraqis are not quite ready yet given their lack of experience with democracy, yet that will not stop the “interim” occupation government from awarding “re-construction” contracts for the Iraqi oil industry. Who cares if the leaders of the Shia majority are calling for the immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq and boycotting U.S. talks for the occupation government according to Reuters: http://story.news.yahoo.com /news?tmpl=story& u=/nm/20030409/wl_nm/iraq_sciri_dc_1
Pay close attention to the oil industry ownership issue as the U.S.-sponsored Iraqi exiles are already telling reporters that they are going to denatonalize the oil and sell it to foreign investors: http://story.news.yahoo. com/news?tmpl=stor y&u=/afp/20030405/bs_afp/iraq_ war_opposition_oil_030405214324
Posted by an observer of White House and media "news" on Apr 12, 2003 at 4:55 AM moore is a hero of sorts. perhaps all of you who are so annoyed by him are afraid that he’s right? These are fictitious times and you my friends are being swept away by the dudes in suits on the hill with all their rhetoric and propaganda. Your government is controlling you and little by little you play into their game. Pretty soon, you’ll be one of THEM - you’ll act only in your interest, who cares who you squash and you’ll sell your mothers kidneys to pay for the gun to kill the man who has your steak. Hmmmmm…sounds like freedom to me. WAKE UP FOLKS! ENGAGE THAT LUMP 3 FEET ABOVE YOUR BOOTIE! REMEMBER MORALS?
Remember when Bush said that Hussein would gas his people and bomb his own bridges and all those other horrible things when the strikes started? (I know it’s hard to remember since you are being brain-washed - but do try a little to remember) anyway- it seems that hussein hasn’t done any of that and I haven’t seen any weapons of mass destruction. (and don’t tell me they’re in Syria - Syria hates Saddam and there’s no way in haedes that they’d hide them for ‘ole hoosie-boy) Your gov’t wants you to believe that this is a just war - just wait a few months - those liberated Iraquis are gonna be so pissed off that we’re still in their country fouling up the air with our American greed and all, well, gee, all that resentment is gonna wanna make them blow a bunch of us up again. Shall we just opress them forever? with the use of force we will have to police them FOREVER! and that’s a mighty long time and I’m hear to tell ya’, “why not use nonviolence my friends?” Gandhi brought the Brits to their knees with NV. There is no way to Peace, Peace is the way. over and out - rock-on michael moore. thanks for your insight and boldness.
Posted by Stephanie on Apr 12, 2003 at 5:29 AM I’m so thrilled that people like, “Tom from”, are so certain all that bad stuff WE sold Sadaam and still produce in horrific amounts ourselves will be found. Amazing that they haven’t used it on us while we, “kill”, their tanks with armor-peircing ordnance full of depleted uranium so we’ll have a new generation of veterans coming home with Gulf War Syndrome, not to mention the untold numbers of newly poisoned Middle Easteners. But does he know what the word, “pathetic”, means? Oh, and I’m not a conspiracy theorist, Sir Brainlock. There are no theories involved because there are no mysteries about conspiracies. They’ve been enacted since the beginning of civilization. Theories apply to contingencies guessed at about natural pheonomena. Man-made conspiracies are not difficult to unearthe but it requires a good deal of looking in the mirror honestly. And the understanding that obviously, when evidence-rich documentation is destroyed or altered, somebody has something to hide, n’est pas? On the other hand, the phrase, conspiracy theory, is merely an attempt to deny the obvious because the alternative is too hard for some people to stomach. George Orwell named that state of mind, “crimestop”. Oh, and pathetic’s original meaning, before REALISTS such as yourself began using it to try dismissing the ideas of people who could actually SEE Reality, was: “of, or, about strong emotions or feelings; able to empathize with another’s psychic state”...a behavioral trait I’m certain you and those of your ilk haven’t the brains to conspiracy theorize about.
Posted by Dom on Apr 12, 2003 at 5:38 AM And as the rest of us stumble in feeling good on Friday night we find Linda ZZZZZ & Dom who have been here trying to recruit terrorists all night. So lovely, don’t you think?
Posted by Me on Apr 12, 2003 at 6:23 AM Now, now, Linda from?...I realize that ONLY YOU know what the meaning and purpose of life is so I can understand that from time to time you need to spew a few mindless words of insult in lieu of actual intellectually original thoughts onto this site. I know how people like you define life. There are two types: Losers, (hard working but always fighting to make ends meet), and Winners: living off the work of the Losers and always able to peel off a few hundred for favors people like you dole out for hard cash only. Of course, in your lexicon, you consider yourself a Winner and a real party girl, livin’ it up to the max on somebody else’s bankroll. What you don’t understand is how instantaneously ANYONE can, due to unforseeable curcumstances shift from one label to the other. REAL life is like that, Linda. Maybe you haven’t been thoroughly crushed yet by some force you can’t control but you know what? In REAL life, especially the way it’s set up now, the odds that anybody will get away with their worst fears being realized diminish with each new day they stay alive. Besides, if everybody, including the high and mighty could be scrutinized, like in, “The Truman Show”, we’d honestly have to put just about everybody under the title of your definition of, Loser, and then throw them in jail or execute them. But then again, you really can’t tell the difference between REAL life and a movie anyway, can you? Aw, c’mon admit it. We understand. Life is all about money and rippin’ off losers, isn’t that it? Those of us who actually give of ourselves despite having to take time away from our REAL work are just chumps who need to get a life. I’m surprised you even bother to take two seconds to vomit out your little insults. Must be a real sacrifice for you. You’re a real blessing for the rest of us who really care about the state of the world; who risk their freedom for having the guts to speak or act against the grain. But then, what do you care. You really think life is one endless Sunday Summer afternoon.
Posted by Dom on Apr 12, 2003 at 4:15 PM Linda Z…we have become so objectionable to some of these programmed television heads that now we’re being called terrorists recruiting other terrorists. So I guess trying to show them they’re the real and most dangerous terrorists is a waste of time. One says he’s stumbling with euphoria that a poor, wasted country has been bombed into the stone age by the most powerful military machine the world’s ever known…while the alleged demonic Sadaam is still at large. Do they actually believe ALL the hype they’re force-fed by the voices of tyranny? Guess they fear they have to. Meanwhile, why weren’t the, “mustachioed maniac”, and the, “bilionaire cave dweller”, merely assassinated by one of the thousands of well-trained goons being stamped out daily in Washington’s suburbs if that was our REAL goal? Do these deep thinkers believe that the bunker busters, depleted uranium armor peircing ordnance, the cluster bombs, and carpet bombs, (plus whatever we don’t know about because it’s being kept secret), are not weapons of mass destruction or terrorist devices? I was born in a country that had been bombed continuously for years just before I was born. All my relatives still reflexively ducked whenever some unexpected loud noise was heard. And that was eight years later! So, don’t tell me about who or what terrorism is about. If what we’re doing in Iraq is not a terrorist act, you know they’d never give up their resistance. Terrorism is terrorism no matter what or who’s the source. Wrapping a flag around it is no comfort to it’s victims. I wonder what the supporters of this atrocity would do if they were in the victims’ place. I’m sure they’d just take it like men and give up after watching their whole families and world being destroyed. No? Well, then you too are just would-be terrorists whose time hasn’t yet arrived.
Posted by Dom on Apr 12, 2003 at 4:41 PM I think Mr. Moore’s statements at the oscars seemed even more worth consideringdue to the fact that the other NON-fiction filmakers stood behind him in support made his statement all the more powerful.
Posted by Darren on Apr 12, 2003 at 6:15 PM Top Ten Things Overheard at Saddam Hussein’s Dinner Last Night
10. “Uday, are you going to eat that pickle?”9. “Bunker for six, please”
8. “You have some shwarma in your mustache”
7. “A double for me and a double for my double”
6. “I know we’re winning the war, but there do seem to be an awful lot of American tanks around”
5. “What was I thinking putting 5,000 dinars on Kansas?
4. “Can we still have these weekly dinners when we’re in hell?”
3. “What do you mean Bloomberg won’t let us smoke in here?”
2. “Kaboom”
1. “More salad, Geraldo?”
Posted by hahahaha on Apr 12, 2003 at 9:10 PM Hi Dom,
Looks like it’s all but dead around here. Nothing like last weekend. Oh well, keep on hanging.
Peace
Posted by Red on Apr 12, 2003 at 9:34 PM From the mundane:
>>>Linda from ? Poor Linda and Dom. Do you have a life or is this it?>>>
Iím doing quite well thank you very much. I do work quite a bit, generally 10+ hours per day. However, I manage to have time to do useful things in my community like help clean up the park across the street from where I live and donate time to work with a small chamber music orchestra. In addition, I have a very close relationship with my brilliant and talented daughter. Monday, weíre going to go see the Picasso/Matisse show at the Museum of Modern Art, then have dinner at a FRENCH restaurant in Midtown New York. My roommate is a Canadian photographer who is one of the most wonderful men I know. So, I would say yes, I do have a life.
One of the reasons I’m here is because I like political debate, but the only person with an opposing point of view with an inkling of intelligence (Tom from Denver) has gone off on a private chat with Tim (from Winnepeg). But then again, he went off on one of those ìLove it or leave itî tirades. Sigh.
To the ridiculous:
>>>Me from ?: And as the rest of us stumble in feeling good on Friday night we find Linda ZZZZZ & Dom who have been here trying to recruit terrorists all night. So lovely, donít you think?>>>
Incapable of any reasonable response, Me from ? lapses into the only refuge left to the inarticulate. Barebones McCarthyism. Honey, just to let you know, my salary ainít big enough to recruit no terrorists. However, you might ask the State Department why, in 1998 it donated $4.2 million to the Islamic African Relief Agency (IARA) a U.S. based non-profit with known financial links to bin Laden. A portion of these funds later purchased by Osama bin Laden to bomb the U.S. embassies in both Kenya and Tanzania. Just to let you know, this happened during the Clinton Administration, which goes to show you that Democrats are just as guilty as the Republicans in their support of terrorism.
Then there’s the $3 billion or so that was pumped into Afghanistan by the U.S. and its allies to support the Taliban.
What is extraordinarily odd is that in view of the illegal methods employed by Bush to win the election and the U.S. support of terrorism, that both Linda from ? and Me from ? have decided that personal “ad hominem” attacks are more important than addressing either of these issues in any real, substantive way.
I think you’ve go
Posted by linda z on Apr 13, 2003 at 4:43 AM Linda Z, an apology…...
I’ve been learning about the Sudan Peace Act since you brought it up and I must apologize for reacting so harshly to your information of which I knew little about.
It’s a very sad situation in Sudan and it certainly deserves more attention. Same for the massacre in Rwanda. A collective yawn from the U.N., Clinton, and the news media. And likewise a thousand other similar situations through history, ignored or even given a wink and a nod by folks on both sides of the aisle. (Bush 41 to Shiites: “go get em boys, we’ll be right over to help as soon as I’m done basking in the glow of my “victory”“)
I guess I’m skeptical of diplomacy, sanctions, and such in light of situations in Iraq, North Korea, Cuba, USSR (no Olympics till you get out of Afghanistan) etc. The “leaders” of such countries seem to be unmoved by anything but a multi-ton intruder on their roof.
Skepticism aside, let’s hope the Sudan Peace Act will have some effect. Let’s hope the U.N. will pass meaningful resolutions and actually enforce them. Is not the root word here resolute? How about united. I think the resolve shown by Bush and Blair in Iraq will be a major factor in Bashir’s decisions about compliance. The pictures of falling statues of Saddam will play again and again in his sick brain.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Apr 13, 2003 at 5:31 AM Linda Z, an apology…...continued
Here’s some articles by Nat Hentoff, a liberal writer I admire, re: SPA. You’ve probably seen them but maybe not.
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0246/hentoff.php
http://www.anti-slavery.org/pages/updates/hentoff.htmlFascinating how civil rights “leaders” have so little interest in the situation in Sudan. After all it is the longest running war on the planet and it is against blacks. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the NAACP et-al have no time or desire to defend their brothers that are actually slaves right now and not150 years ago. Bill Clinton the first black president had little time for it. You’d think he would have been all over it. I hope that Bush 43 will make it a forefront issue. You’re right, he probably won’t. However, it’s understandable he would be reluctant to disrupt “relations” with these butchers until more intelligence could be gathered. Sudan must be a goldmine of information on al-Qaida.
As for “Bush knew”, a lot of people knew. Just not exactly who, where, and when. There were obviously intelligence failures, but they have their root much more in the de-balling of the CIA by such American heroes as my fellow Idahonian Frank Church and Jimmy Nobel Carter than they do in the nine months Bush had in office, all the while having to tiptoe through the minefield of politically-correct crime fighting rules imposed on us by the collective left.
Please see: http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_why_the_fbi.html
Again, my apologies. You have certainly opened my eyes to the horrible situation in Sudan.
Mynah Byrd
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Apr 13, 2003 at 5:31 AM Baghdad Residents Don Gas Masks
(2003-04-09)—Residents of Baghdad donned gas masks this morning when many simultaneously detected something strange in the air.
“I have never smelled anything like this. It was sweet and strong,” said one local man. “I grabbed our family masks and made sure all the children and grandmother were protected.”
After about 30 minutes, the masks began to come off around the city as word spread among the local citizens that the strange scent in the air was the smell of freedom mingled with the aroma of victory.
Posted by Play Jurist on Apr 13, 2003 at 8:18 AM Ahhh yes. The lootings. Almost like a holiday and twice as fun.
Only since it went completely unchecked they also looted the Museums of Baghdad containing priceless artefacts from the Tigris/Eufrates river cultures. That collection, by all accounts the finest in the world, is now gone, and with it our chance to study it more closely.
But ohhhhhhhh yeah, it’s worth it. It’s alllllll worth it.
Martin Hansen.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 13, 2003 at 9:54 AM Yes, those horrible Iraqi’s looting & carrying on like they’ve never been free!
How dare them!
Posted by ??? on Apr 13, 2003 at 1:45 PM In packed vehicles, Iraqis return home to Baghdad
Reuters | 4/13/03 |by Edmund BlairBAGHDAD, April 13 (Reuters) - Piled into trucks, clinging to the back of old pick-ups and crushed into rickety saloon cars, thousands of Iraqis returned home to Baghdad on Sunday after fleeing the war to towns outside the city.
They had escaped in fear as U.S.-led forces bombed the city when Saddam Hussein still had an iron grip.
They returned with smiles and flicking victory V-signs. One man shouted “Down, down, Saddam” from his precarious seat on top of bags and blankets on the back of truck carrying more than 20 other adults and children.
“We fled the American bombing. We were scared,” said a grinning Umm Adnan as she returned with two others crammed into the front seat of a white pick-up. Another family member lay on their belongings piled high on the back.The 50-year-old had fled to Baaqouba, northeast of Baghdad, to escape the fierce bombardment that rained down on the capital. Many had also feared Saddam Hussein could order the use of chemical weapons, which the United States accused Iraq of possessing. Iraq consistently denied it possessed any.
“He could have used chemical weapons, that is why the families left. He is a criminal,” said Mohammed Ali Hussein as he fingered an old pre-war Iraqi newspaper that was littering a destroyed military checkpoint at the junction into the city.
But when Baghdad fell, looters stormed through the city. Some returnees feared their homes may have been ransacked, although relative calm had returned on Sunday.
“Thanks be to God, our home is fine,” said 36-year-old Adil, who was on his second trip to bring the rest of his family home. Even on the second journey, the car was full to bursting with six adults, four infants and luggage on the roof.
It was an emotional homecoming for 42-year-old Daoud Kashash Hussein, a medical assistant at a private hospital, as he pulled up outside his small home in a minibus carrying his family of five and 10 members of a neighbouring family.
“I am so happy,” he said as he hugged his teary 70-year-old father, who had stayed in Baghdad saying he would rather die at home. Asked if he had been scared during the bombing, his father said: “War is war. At least now we don’t have a tyrant over us.”
Posted by Play Jurist on Apr 13, 2003 at 7:11 PM dom from long island:
You actually sound like a very intelligent person based on most of your previous comments, which I have found to be fairly articulate and well-versed.
However, the level of anger you show towards The System and The Man quite frankly scares me to death. You are so blinded by your own rage that, in my opinion, you don’t even have a nodding acquaintance with reality.
I have endeavored to look up many of the website links that you and your anti-everything-under-the-sun buddies have posted on this site. You know what I found out? That anti-war sites are no more objective, no more factual, and no more informed than the awful, horrible, corporate-agenda mainstream media. You only think those sites are correct and factual because it is what you BELIEVE. I, on the other hand, found alot of the stuff I read on those sites to be so silly and far-fetched that I actually laughed out loud. Let me guess - you believed everything the Iraqi Information Minister said. The images of our guys slapping fists in front of the sign that said “Saddam International Airport” were obviously fabricated - by MM himself perhaps.
I think that your tired, depleted anti-war movement is thankfully going to go the way of the peace movement of the 1960’s: mostly forgotten because of it’s negativity, destructiveness, and fallibility. History has already proven this, and it will prove it again in your sorry-ass case.
Your good friend Neil from Boise (who hasn’t shown up on this site since I pointed out that threatening people over the internet is a federal offense) mentioned “the uncompassionate side that the right-wing tends to have.” You know what? There is actually some truth to that. But if the right-wing is uncompassionate, then I think the left-wing is angry, mistrusting, and always negative, negative, negative.
You think you are a better citizen because you dissent, and bitch, and get angry about everything except the Yankees? I think I am a better citizen because I support our President and military, I follow the rules of our society, and I believe in our system of government. Sorry, bro, but 71% of Americans feel the same way. Or do you not believe polls, either?
You’re just like that whacked out Air Force general in “Dr. Strangelove” who thought the commies were going to take over because they were flourinating our water.
Get a grip, dude, things really aren’t as bad as you think they are….......
Posted by Conservative D on Apr 13, 2003 at 8:09 PM Martin,
You seem intent on putting a negative spin on the recent historical fall of a murderous dictator in Iraq.
Where are you getting your news, from Michael Mooreís website? We know how he massages reality to fit his agenda, are you sure you can trust what he puts on his website?
I look at the lootings in Iraq as a healthy wonderful thing. People are smiling and happy to be getting something from government other than a free ear removal operation.
Iíve seen worse in the streets of Los Angeles after injustice was felt by blacks over the Rodney King verdict. Ordinary Iraqis have lived through far greater injustice in the form of torture, murder and rape since Sodamn Insane gained power. And you would say their new-found freedom wasnít worth it?
After the riots in Los Angeles, many people with your attitude defended the looters. ìThey were just venting their feelings.î ìThey found a way to lash back at society that so oppressed them.î But when Iraqis who are truly justified in looting do so, people like you and the look-for-the-negative-news-that-sells media condemn them soundly.
As for the museum, maybe later the looters can sell back some of the artifacts so they can afford to fly to the United States for tongue reconstruction surgery.
Liloan
Posted by Liloan Stitch on Apr 13, 2003 at 8:09 PM http://welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/
Conservative D.
I think you will enjoy this site if you haven’t already found it yourself. You may find it loads slow but be patient. They have been getting alot of hits.
Posted by Proud American on Apr 13, 2003 at 9:22 PM To Lilo:
A negative spin…....
What possible good can come of the wanton destruction of a peoples heritage, a heritage they’ll need more than ever when the war is over. The wholesale destruction of what was the greatest collection of pre-history artefacts at the conception of the human Alphabet is nothing short of insanity.
Nope I don’t get my News from MM’s website, but neither do I watch CNN, (or Can the Negative News). This news came on our national media from our own national reporters, so I think I’ll go with it if you don’t mind.
Also, for the record, since you believe that everything can be meassured in cash, (Comparing LA Looters to the Iraquis), what price would you put on a Gilded Lute, carved from Ivory in Ur at around 2000 to 3000 BC ? How many colour TV’s? How many SUV’s?
What pricetag to put on the tablet containing some of Man’s earliest writing? How many motorhomes? How many airconditioners?This is not simple possessions we’re talking about here. This is world heritage and as such it is priceless. No doubt most of it is lost for ever and the rest will end up at private collections where they will remain out of sight for all but their owners.
So I’m putting a negative spin on things? How positive is the greatest archiological disaster since WW2?
Thankfully the Iraqi Oil Ministry is without a scratch. There, I put a positive spin on the war.
Martin Hansen.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 13, 2003 at 11:58 PM Martin,
I too am saddened by the loss of the artifacts. It’s too bad Coalition forces weren’t willing or able to protect them. However, I don’t put quite such a value on objects as you seem to. Guilded ivory lutes and tablets are nice, but I think human rights trump. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a lot of these items come back through some sort of amnesty program.
My response to you is based on your “it’s all worth it” sarcasm. You say that I believe everything can be measured in cash (comparing LA looters to Iraqis) Where do you get that? What’s all this talk of SUVs, TVs, A/Cs, and motorhomes? I was comparing the worth of living in freedom with the worth of “things” no matter how priceless they may be to some.
I was comparing the former status quo of Iraq to the simple human right not to live in fear of losing your ears or your tongue because you express your opinion like you and I are doing.
I was pointing out the hypocracy of some that would “understand” looting when it’s not justified, but condemn it when it is. (only talking about the goverment buildings here, mind you)
I was expressing surprise that you would choose to point out this event in the sarcastic way you did as if to say that it would have been better if Saddam and his evil regime were still in power rather than to have some artifacts lost. Let’s poll the Iraqi people now that they are free to be truthful. I have a feeling they would choose no Saddam and no artifacts over having Saddam, torture chambers, death squads, public hangings, acid baths, no religious freedom…...and artifacts. But I could be wrong.
So now it’s time to poll Martin Hansen. What would you choose, Martin? Would you choose Saddam with artifacts or would you choose no Saddam and no artifacts?
Liloan
Posted by Lliloanstitch on Apr 14, 2003 at 2:18 AM To Lilo,
How about No Saddam but plus Artefacts?
The point being that if you choose to go to war you choose a mantle of responsability. The Iraqis can hardly be said to be free as of yet and for some, the horror has just begun. The majority Shi’ites are probably not going to let 40 years of oppression go unpunished. So freedom…What freedom? So far they’ve only exchanged one opressor with another. Standard Arabian policy making.
As for things reappearing: Fat Chance buster. Last war saw only 1 percent of looted treassures removed returned again.Martin Hansen.
P.S. And it’s not just “some artefacts missing”. Most of this is the stuff of legends and just because you don’t give a crap about it still entitles others to mourn its passing.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 14, 2003 at 5:50 AM Everyone mourns the loss of museum pieces, be it by looting, fire or flood. You said and I quote “But ohhhhhhhh yeah, it’s worth it. It’s alllllll worth it.”
I take that to be sarcasm to mean that you don’t think it was worth it to get rid of Saddam, given the loss of the artifacts.
So answer the poll question as asked: Do you vote for Saddam with artifacts or No Saddam and no artifacts?
Keep in mind that Saddam ordered the death of his own grandchildren, not to mention a former U.S. president.
Liloan
Posted by Lliloan Stitch on Apr 14, 2003 at 8:29 AM Oh no, whats wrong with the most people in the US ?? you bombed afghanistan, and there is no democratie !!! more and more people are getting hungry and will die soon, because they have no food, and the US start the next war with bÌllion of dollars !! rescue iraq, but forget afghanistan soon !!!!!
and after the oil control in iraq, you can bomb the next country down and can forget iraq !!
oh, i like the US, but you really have a dangerous government !!
Posted by Marcel on Apr 14, 2003 at 10:36 AM Mr Michael Moore.
You are great American !!!All most people have got encouragement by your speech.
Thank you very much.
You showed us what does democracy mean.
Many lazy ignorant unsophisticated people might be think you are wrong or get annoyed with you.
Because they don’t study history etc and always afraid other revenge what they have done to others.
Sorry for my broken English, but I really want you to know you are HERO and No1 great American.
Keep your style! I wish your happiness and successful. Lots of Love.
Posted by Junko,M on Apr 14, 2003 at 10:36 AM Mr Michael Moore.
You are great American !!!All most people have got encouragement by your speech.
Thank you very much.
You showed us what does democracy mean.
Many lazy ignorant unsophisticated people might be think you are wrong or
get annoyed with you.
Because they don’t study history etc and always afraid other revenge what
they have done to others.
Sorry for my broken English, but I really want you to know you are HERO and
No1 great American.
Keep your style! I wish your happiness and successful.
Lots of Love.
Posted by Junko,M on Apr 14, 2003 at 11:07 AM Mr Michael Moore.
You are great American !!!All most people have got encouragement by your speech.
Thank you very much.
You showed us what does democracy mean.
Many lazy ignorant unsophisticated people might be think you are wrong or
get annoyed with you.
Because they don’t study history etc and always afraid other revenge what
they have done to others.
Sorry for my broken English, but I really want you to know you are HERO and
No1 great American.
Keep your style! I wish your happiness and successful. Lots of Love.
Posted by Junko,M on Apr 14, 2003 at 11:11 AM For all of you I recommend a recent book by John Plight, a respected journalist, under the title “The new leaders of the world” and the book (or movie) of chomsky’s “Power and Terror”. They tell you how the “liberators” put sadam on power, gave him tons of weapons, including chemical and biological weapons, knowing that he is going to use it on his neighbours and his own people. Even whe used chemical weapons on the kurds some time before his invasion of kuwait, the “liberators” knew what actually happend but tried to supress the news. Even after gulf war I when the opposition were almost going to topple sadam, the “liberators” helped him to get rid of them. And all of a sudden, as if the whole world was in a comma while they were doing all this, they just tell us that sadam is a very bad guy, and he should be dealt with. Please, if you are one of those americans and british citizens who just listen to your corporate controlled media only and then think the whole world is wrong while you are right, try to go to the liberaries and find some articles from your respected newspapers like the Times, washington post and wall street journal, from the 80s. You will see pictures of sadam with top US officals, you will read him being praised for his attrocities. Even when he killed more than 30 americans with a missle on a US ship he was excused, because he was a nice guy and it was not possible for him to so deliberatley!. And even after reading the books I mentioned and the stories from your own newspapers, you still believe the war on Iraq is to liberate the people from sadam, then I am sorry to say it, but you arrogant, cruel and stupid.
Posted by Oumer on Apr 14, 2003 at 1:04 PM “The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.” Plato -
Like MM, I am not one of those who believe Bush had a brain implant on 9/11; which ranks right up there with immaculate conception for credibility. Anyone with more brains than a jellyfish would know that if they hadn’t been brainwashed. Thank God there are still Americans like Michael Moore who can think.
Posted by bobk on Apr 14, 2003 at 2:41 PM As a European I would like to thank Mister Moore for his courage and for showing the world that there actually are freethinkers in the US.
I dislike the growing anti-Americanism in the world as I dislike the policy of the Bush administration. But sometimes itís hard to find arguments to convince the ìanti-Americansî.
Michael Moore is one.
Posted by E. V. on Apr 14, 2003 at 2:59 PM I did some searching on washington post website and here are some interesting headlines and abstracts from some articles in washington post.
1.U.S. Doesn’t See Iraq As Backing Terrorists
Ian Black, Washington Post Staff Writer
October 8, 1983; Page A25
Section: First Section; World News
Iraq should not be returned to a list of countries officially regarded by the United States as supporting international terrorist activities, the StateDepartment said this week.
The department’s statement, offered in response to reporters’ questions, was directed at congressional moves to put the Middle Eastern country back into that
category for purposes of the Export Administration Act, due to be renewed in the next two weeks.
2.U.S. to Help Finance Iraq-Jordan Pipeline
From Staff Reports and News Services
July 12, 1984; Page D1
Section: Business & Finance; Roundup
Word Count: 314The United States plans to help Iraq build an oil pipeline through Jordan in a $1 billion project to boost oil exports.
A Bechtel Group Inc. spokesman said yesterday that the project is in the negotiating stage between Iraq, Jordan and a London subsidiary of Bechtel, with
expectations that a contract will be signed this summer.
The pipeline would extend 540 miles from the oil fields north of Baghdad to Jordan’s Port of Aqaba at the mouth of the Gulf of Aqaba.
3.Iraq Reported Set to Renew Diplomatic Ties With U.S.
Article 41 of 200 foundDon Oberdorfer, Washington Post Staff Writer
October 26, 1984; Page A1
Section: First Section
Word Count: 822Iraq has informed the United States that it is ready to reestablish full diplomatic relations later this year after a 17-year interruption, according to
official sources.
Only a few years ago, Iraq was denigrated here as a radical Soviet client in the Middle East, but the United States has gradually drifted into a closer
alignment with it during the four-year Iraq-Iran war.
The Iraqi decision was conveyed to Secretary of State George P. Shultz by Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz at the United
Posted by Oumer on Apr 14, 2003 at 3:02 PM 4.U.S., Iraq Resume Diplomatic Ties
Article 44 of 200 foundDon Oberdorfer, Washington Post Staff Writer
November 27, 1984; Page A11
Section: First Section; World News
Word Count: 700The United States and Iraq yesterday ended 17 years of official estrangement by resuming full diplomatic relations at the conclusion of a symbolic White
House meeting between President Reagan and a senior Iraqi official.
Describing the resumption of ties as “a positive development,” a senior State Department official sought in a White House briefing to discourage expectations
of large-scale changes in Washington’s policies toward Baghdad. Specifically, he said there is no
5. CIA AIDING IRAQ IN GULF WAR
TARGET DATA FROM U.S. SATELLITES SUPPLIED FOR NEARLY 2 YEARS
Article 113 of 200 foundWashington Post Staff WriterBob Woodward
December 15, 1986; Page A01
Section: A SECTION
Word Count: 1419The Central Intelligence Agency has been secretly supplying Iraq with detailed intelligence, including data from sensitive U.S. satellite reconnaissance
photography, to assist Iraqi bombing raids on Iran’s oil terminals and power plants in the war between the two nations, according to informed sources.
The information has been flowing to Iraq for nearly two years. During the same period, the Reagan administration was secretly selling arms to Iran in an
effort to free the American
6.FEAR OF IRANIAN VICTORY CITED AS REASON U.S. GAVE DATA TO IRAQ
Article 114 of 200 foundWashington Post Staff WriterDon Oberdorfer
December 16, 1986; Page A12
Section: A SECTION
Word Count: 858The supply of U.S. intelligence information to Iraq by the Central Intelligence Agency was begun more than two years ago with the knowledge of the State
Department and others in the executive branch because of concern that Iran might be winning the war in the oil-rich Persian Gulf, U.S. sources familiar with
the operation said yesterday.
The transmission to Iraq of detailed intelligence, including data from sensitive U.S. satellite reconnaissance photography, was reported in yesterday’s
Posted by oumer on Apr 14, 2003 at 3:03 PM 7.PRESIDENT SUHARTO’S RISE TO POWER
Article 9 of 13 found
June 13, 1990; Page a22
Section: OP/ED
Word Count: 540The May 21 States New Service report that appeared in The Post belatedly drew attention to the role U.S. officials played in the massacres that accompanied
President Suharto’s rise to power in Indonesia in 1965
However outraged one may be to read of U.S. Embassy staff supplying lists and ticking off names as reports were received that named individuals had been
dealt with, it is hardly a surprise. The U.S. administration of the time made no secret of its relief that t
8.INDONESIA 1965 YEAR OF LIVING CYNICALLY?
Article 79 of 130 foundStephen S. Rosenfeld
July 13, 1990; Page a21
Section: OP/ED
Word Count:With all the free inquiry that Americans enjoy, there is still a lot of Cold War history not yet told. Kathy Kadane, a tenacious investigative reporter who works for the States News Service, got ahold of one fascinating loose thread in a story {’‘U.S. Officials’ Lists Aided Indonesian Bloodbath in ‘60s’‘} that this newspaper published on May 21. A good deal more pulling on that thread waits to be done
Kadane reported that in the years leading up to 1965
Posted by oumer on Apr 14, 2003 at 3:04 PM When did invading Iraq become about 9/11?
You listen to too many misguided journalists.
Posted by ??? on Apr 14, 2003 at 3:16 PM What I want is rather immaterial, but what the Iraqis want is what counts. Those museum pieces didn’t belong to the 22000 looters of Baghdad but rather to the 22 million Iraqis. Why you even try to defend is is ludicrous.
Today we got the first inkling of a continuance of the War, namely against Syria for “Aiding Iraq” and for “possibly having Weapons of Mass Destruction” and it got me to thinking. This new missile shield of yours. It needs a new Radar on the Thule Airbase. If Denmark, and Greenland, says no, will you invade Greenland under some pretext?
And if not, why not?Give your Administration a few more years, and they’ll be feared by everybody. A few more wars and the Soviets can sell theirs Stockpiles wholesale. I sure want my country to own AT LEAST 2 nukes, possibly 5 and 2 or 3 nuclear tipped torpedoes to sink carriers with. We’ll buy our silent running Subs from the Germans, provided they don’t get it first, and we can stare you down across the atlantic, waiting for the inevitable strike.
But I do prefer Saddam to go, but only after the deliberations you never had. Now it’s my turn to poll you:
Was this looting justified in the eyes of the millions of millions of people living in Iraq, but NOT in Baghdad?
Men with righteous causes are dangerous men. And the USA is ALWAYS righteous, no?
Martin Hansen.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 14, 2003 at 3:53 PM How strange that countries like France, Germany, Russia who have such checkered pasts ( to say the least ) keep dragging up past mistakes the US has made in trying to befriend these maniacs in the Middle East.
Post in the here & now & deal with the subject at hand.
Posted by Proud American on Apr 14, 2003 at 4:12 PM No Martin
Looting isn’t justified but it’s hard to tell people who have been oppressed for so long.
Hopefully the artifacts will be returned but if they’re not, they’re not.
There are bigger issues at hand.
Posted by ??? on Apr 14, 2003 at 4:20 PM France, Germany & Russia all have lots to lose starting with all the cash Saddam owes them not to mention their oil supply.
Guess they are pissed off! Too bad, so sad.
Posted by Proud American on Apr 14, 2003 at 5:00 PM Shelley,
My son is on the Kitty Hawk. I worked in our no so “SECRET WAR IN LAOS”. Being against the war, against this president, being against his so called “National Security Policy” of unilateral pre-emptive strikes is being neither un-American or anti-troop. I wanted to read a little nice review of something the Radical Religious Right has never had—guts and a sense of humor. All you little pro-Bush neo-nazis just need to take a deep breath and realize you all sound like Rush or Sharon or Yassir. Repeating something you believe, no matter how ferverently you do, does not make it true.
Posted by radar on Apr 14, 2003 at 5:04 PM And right back at ya Radar.
Just because YOU believe it doesn’t make it so!
Posted by Shelley on Apr 14, 2003 at 5:12 PM To ProudAmerican <<How strange that countries like France, Germany, Russia who have such checkered pasts ( to say the least ) keep dragging up past mistakes the US has made in trying to befriend these maniacs in the Middle East.
Post in the here & now & deal with the subject at hand.>>
Well, the “checkered past” of europe is some 50 years ago - since then the behaviour of those countries changed considerable, which is the reason why all those proud conservative americans now consider them whimps. In fact THAT statement is mainly for the germans. You can’t even say that for everybody else - the french and the english had their best times during colonialism.
The american misbehavings 1) happend during the last 20 years, 2) never ceased to happen and 3) many of nowadays players (rumsfeld, cheney, bush sr. etc.) are were involved back then. That’s the difference.
By the way “checkered past” - ever heard about some people called “native americans”? No? Well maybe because they where anihilated by “Gods own country”, good proud christian americans. By the way, the same people who abducted, enslaved and and still mistreat millions of african natives.
Posted by ProudEuropean on Apr 14, 2003 at 5:40 PM All this posturing about Europe this and Europe that.
We’re cut out of the decision loop and we don’t like it, but what I really don’t understand is this:Why weren’t we just abandoned to the Russians 50 years ago?
If we can’t speak freely against USA, why continue the sham of our liberation? If we had been occupied by the Russians we wouldn’t have been free. I know that as a certain fact, but am I allowed to express my displeasure of my government? Yours?Russias?
The “You’re either with us or against us” rethoric has some serious implications, but you force us to take sides we don’t really want to take. It’s also “Patriotic” in its stance, and most of Washingtons rethoric these days is “Patriotic” and nothing else.
I for one would like a straight answer: How afraid should we be of the USA?
I myself see your government as nothing short of Greedy, Lying, Criminal (both internationally and US law) scumbags, out to bag anything that will win another dollar and another vote. The only silver lining on that cloud is that 50 percent or more never voted for the current president which gives hope to the fact that things MIGHT calm down in 6 years. Anti-Americanism?? Sure, but 2 things:
1. You did NOT win WW2 alone. GB, Canada, Russia, ANZACS, they were all there with the same mission. This time USA is the loose cannon and you’re pretty much on your own.
2. Your motives for winning, and liberating Europe, in WW2 was NOTHING like your motives today. To even make the comparison makes me violently ill.All Europeans are grateful for the US assistance both before and after the war, but that help was by and large given freely and not with ulterior motives in mind (Other than to stop communism). Why don’t I trust this administration? Because they loathe Europe as much as we loathe them and we both know it.
Martin Hansen.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 14, 2003 at 6:08 PM I wasn’t on the Mayflower. I haven’t owned slaves. I don’t mistreat or judge people based on their ethnic background & have many friends who have come from other parts of the world to make their home in the USA.
I don’t boycott “French” products (I never cared for the Dixie Chicks). I think MM was out of line using the podium for his own self serving interests but don’t condemn him for doing so.
I also vote in all the small elections in my area & try to get involved in my community. Yes, I voted for Bush but agree that after the fiasco in Fla. that the electoral college (which happened to work in this case) should be done away with & it should be, very simply, one person, one vote.
I consider myself to be just an average person trying to make a living & get by in this world.
Do I love my country??? Yes I do!!! Am I proud to be American??? Yes I am!!!
Does that make me a bad person?
Posted by Proud American on Apr 14, 2003 at 6:09 PM To ProudAmerican
Nope, it doesn’t mean that you’re a bad person.
But, as we here in Europe, especially those in Germany VERY well know - it becomes a very bad thing when patriotism turns in to nationalism. This leads down a very dangerous path of arrogance and self-righteousness, if not treated with care. Be aware, that in WW2 Germans considered themselves to be patriots, too.
It’s not bad if you think your country is a good place to live, and that your people has made it such. As long as you remember that other people in other countries might think that way of their own countries, too, and that you’re not superior to them. The thinking of a patriot should be “I love this country because of (insert your personal reason here)” (freedom, democracy, human rights etc.) It’s not “Well, my country does this or that, so it must be OK”. Patriotism doesn’t mean, that everything your country does is automatically OK. Yes, I love my Dad - but if he starts screwing things up you bet I’ll give him a piece of mind. Remember - there’s no particular merit in being american, german, french or iraqi. It’s pure coincidence - and especially so if you come from a immigration country like the US, Canada or South America. The merit comes with what we do and what we make our country to live in. And one very important part of it is to watch closely and question what the people who represent the citizens are doing with the power they borrowed. The president is not america - he is just a person. If a citizen thinks, that what he does is wrong he has the right to protest, because the president is misusing that borrowed power.
Well, that’s beeing patriotic - not just nodding at everything the administration says because “he is the president, we have to support him”. Democracy means that the people are in control of their leaders. If the leaders step out of that control by muting oposition and cutting civil rights it stops beeing a democracy - it becomes a dictatorship. One might think, that those are two opposites very far away from each other, but the truth is, that most dictatorships try to seize power by subtle actions - one civil right here, one unquestioned lie there and when you realize the truth it’s too late to do something against it. Or name one dictatorship in the world that doesn’t claim to be “democratic”? Even Saddam did.
Posted by ProudEuropean on Apr 14, 2003 at 7:09 PM Proud European,
That is just about the best damn posting I have read on this site. Outstanding!
But what is the solution? Where does all the hate and misunderstanding for/of America come from? How do we ALL get to the next level of understanding and mutual cultural respect?
It’s not like most people have a ton of disposable income so they can go visit other countries for extended periods of time thereby destroying most misconceptions about each other. So what is the alternative? Where does this change start?
It bothers me that so many people hate America. I’ve never begrudged another country their culture or heritage - only some of their histories…...
Posted by Conservative D on Apr 14, 2003 at 8:09 PM For those interested in the direction being taken by the U.S. Administration with regard to foreign policy, please read over the following link. It is a “Statement of Principles,” drafted in June of 1997 by a group calling themselves “The Project of the New American Century.”
Signatories of this document include: Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Paul Wolfowitz, Dan Quayle…and other high profile members of the current administration.
THEN ask yourself what this “war” is really all about.
Posted by Tim on Apr 14, 2003 at 10:17 PM Tim
I went & looked at your document. Where is the original with the authentic signatures or even a copy of the original?
Hell, you could have typed that up at home! That is what’s wrong with this world now. People falling for propoganda nonsense.
Give me a break!
Posted by ??? on Apr 14, 2003 at 11:48 PM Conservative D From The Right Side, got somethin’ for ya: Poverty is the scarcity or lack of friends. Wealth is the accrual of the spoils of ruthless ambition. Those who would unremittingly speak the truth, even about themselves, will be friendless and poor in THEIR end. Those who would grasp brutally all the objects of their desires, hoarding the vast portion for themselves will have no dearth of admirers and imitators but can trust no one to be a friend- so will be luxuried but alone in THEIR end. So, I must ask-Is it better to die poor and friendless…or awash in gold-your children keeping anxious time- awaiting your final breath? Yet, these options are but the ego’s trick of embracing false idols or rejecting them in anger. The roads into a forest are sometimes hidden and the mind, fearful lest it miss the quick first step onto the obvious path is blinded against the myriad, narrow, nearly imperceptible trails and deer runs. And, though all roads lead to the same end-if your inner eye be clear, keen, and focused…you will feel them all and follow the path your heart has silently selected. That’s REALITY, my friend! Your mask of POSITIVITY is as glass…brittle and transparent.
Posted by Dom on Apr 15, 2003 at 12:13 AM Yes ???,
he could have but the fact is that he might not. That what he wrote is what they wrote and then where are you…?
You will still need to tow the party line and toady to their principles..
The easiest way for confirmation is to ask the people signing it whether or not it’s true…Do your own homework.
Martin Hansen.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 15, 2003 at 12:14 AM Conundrum: There is not a thing any of us who herein take our stances can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt. Fine logic and subtle casuistric dialectics cannot discover absolutely what will never be revealed. In the end, we can trust only our own and our loved ones’ opinions for we can no longer corroborate facts without swearing blind allegegiance to those who act beneath the cloak of secrecy-nor can we march with conviction behind those who parse the humpty-dumptied remnants of proof with inductive or deductive cold precision. Each will STILL have arrived at some fractitious truth. And here we are, slamming one another over our prejudiced beliefs arriving at the precise nexus of internecine in-fighting that the unseeable puppeteers have orchestrated. Some will think it fine for they would worship the directing phantoms if they could…as for the others-I leave that unanswered- for history, if nothing else, is a cautionary tale. The only difference being that these may be the FINAL times. So, choose well, my friends, choose well.
Posted by Dom on Apr 15, 2003 at 12:40 AM I must apologize to those around the world who’ve contributed their justifiable comments to this forum. We in the U.S. prefer to live in apathetic ignore-ance. But, please believe that there are some who realize just how frightening we, the biggest military/corporate bully that ever existed has to appear to a world whose citizens had hoped WE were actually the paragons of virtue and generosity, freedom and tolerence WE always pawned ourselves off as being. We HAVE disappointed everyone whose ideals tended toward the dream of the brotherhood of man. You must all be a bit befuddled that we are become more REALPOLITIK than even the Soviets once were. But understand, this complicit ignorance you see here springs from the same river of hope as yours for we too have allowed ourselves to be fooled by our country. At least those of us who couldn’t bear to admit that the post-WWII years were a slow, surreptitious, deliberate undermining of all that was potentially good about us. Yet, who can honestly claim their attention spans are so short that they can’t remember all the COVERTLY-orchestrated coups, wars, counter-insurgencies, political assassinations, character assassinations, all the this and that, “-Gates”, that gave us a slight glimpse into the culture of DEATH that was consolidatiting it’s grip upon the world? Who is really so naive to believe that TRUE patriotic and altruistic motives gave rise to these and many unknown other knaveries that have revealed themselves as seeming mysteries? And we who were not fooled were and are still being jeered, spat upon and worse. So, don’t feel alone out in that world we ALL share…some of us here DO understand. The problem is that too many of us are still in denial and would rather shoot the messenger than open their eyes.
Posted by Dom on Apr 15, 2003 at 1:42 AM To ???:
I gather from your incredulity that you find the information on the “Project for the New American Century” page alarming.
Would it to be fair to say that if you discovered the document was not fraudulent, then you would no longer support your administration?
(Note: I am currently sitting on the executive of the Manitoba Association of Teachers of English, and I teach critical media awareness. I applaud your scepticism of this site. Do you apply the same critical lense to the rest of the mass media?)
Note—> References to PNAC in the mainstream international press SHOULD address some of your concerns regarding the group’s authenticity:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2801349.stm
Posted by Tim on Apr 15, 2003 at 2:27 AM Great article!
This goes out to Micheal Riley from New jersey. You should be happy that you¥ve got someone like Moore to open your eyes for what is really going on in your country, and for what your goverment thinks it can do with the rest of the world. So stars and stripe my ass when I read such an dumnut comment from a guy who obiously can¥t handle he truth when it¥s offered on a silverplate. P.S.: Mark you won¥t get it anyway! With love from Denmark Sucker
Posted by Jan on Apr 15, 2003 at 2:28 AM Finally, someone who speaks the truth. Alot of my stupid friends are in love with George W. Bush. And I can’t stand him. The guy can’t even pronounce ‘nuclear’ right! Michael Moore shows George’s stupid ways in his awesome new book “stupid white men.” Read it everyone.
Posted by Tavis on Apr 15, 2003 at 2:29 AM The Iraqi people are so poor that they are stealing tons of chairs. That just shows you how bad they had it under Saddam’s rule.
Posted by Tavis on Apr 15, 2003 at 2:35 AM To ???:
If you are really interested in doing your homework, I’ve attached an academic source from the “New Statesman” Journal, as well as an article from the “New York Times” magazine. Both address the “Project for the New American Century.”
Please don’t accuse me of passing on fraudulent material again without something to substantiate your claim.
Subject(s): TERRORISM; PERLE, Richard; SEPTEMBER 11 Terrorist Attacks, 2001; INTERNATIONAL relations
Source: New Statesman, 12/16/2002, Vol. 131 Issue 4618, p13, 2p
Author(s): Pilger, John
Abstract: Comments on the U.S. campaign against terrorism. Interview with Richard Perle, a founder of the Project for the New American Century, about the issue; Articles in the ‘Washington Post’ that reveal how the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks event was manipulated based on interviews with senior members of the U.S. government; Opinion on a U.S. war against Iraq.
AN: 8659533
ISSN: 1364-7431
Full Text Word Count: 1324
Database: MasterFILE EliteNew York Times Magazine, 12/9/2001, Vol. 151 Issue 51962, p53, 2p
(So. If it’s TRUE, then… what is your response?)
Posted by Tim on Apr 15, 2003 at 2:40 AM What’s so insulting to those of us who’ve read books such as George Orwell’s, “1984”, and/or, Aldous Huxley’s, “Brave New World”, is that this junta in power has the brass to actually plagarize the theme and some of the particulars of these prescient works-using them as virtual blueprints for the horrors they’ve extrapolated into the REAL world. For example, in Orwell’s book, the most effective means of keeping the hoi polloi in line is to keep them in constant fear by using psychologically credible ogre-types like Osama and Sadaam as enemies against whom we must wage endless wars. The rationale being that they and whomever the future bogey men might be are sponsors of a terrorism directed against us; that consequently we must hunt them down, invading nation after nation, keeping us in endless war. This technique not only ensures the people’s tacit approval for these endless wars against illusory enemies affords the regime the extra bonus of hypnotizing people into believing that only the great leaders who had the will and power to, “keep us safe from terrorism while retaining our freedoms”, should be allowed to retain their positions ad infinitum; to in effect become our dictators, that George W. Bush should be our fearless emperor with the right to initiate a dynastic line of modern-day Caesers.
Posted by Dom on Apr 15, 2003 at 4:08 AM You so-called conservatives are just a bunch of loud-mouthed, draft-dodging cowardly hypocrites. Your only reason for being pro-life while being rabid war mongers and capital punishment enthusiasts is to ensure that enough war-meat is available so you and your kids don’t have to put on a uniform and live the courage of your rhetorical convictions. Chicken hawks, all of you, especially you generals who, well-sheilded in bunkers, throw as many minorities into the fray without compunction, as you can get away with. If you had any balls, you’d be the ones initiating a resolution to impeach this pretender to the presidency because he’ll eventually get around to getting his hit men to shut you up because HE eventually won’t trust anybody, especially loudmouths who pretend to worship him. Damn, if an election had been stolen from you, and I gotta praise you for it, you’d all still be tryin’ to throw the bastard out, crying to high heaven about how you shoulda won. Damn, you’d still be talkin’ about it a hundred years after. So, stand up and act upon the convictions you claim to possess or else shut the fuck up and act the way you really are behind the loudmouth masks: mirror-images of liberals but with only two or three issues on your platforms.
Posted by Dominick on Apr 15, 2003 at 5:07 AM respect to michael moore for being on the side of truth. people who dare not watch “bowling for columbine” or refuse to read any of his books are denying themselves of perspective that is crucial in formulating ones own opinion, try turning off the tv that does just that.
tell-lie-vision.
Posted by jesson on Apr 15, 2003 at 7:01 AM The easiest way for confirmation is to ask the people signing it whether or not it’s true…Do your own homework.
Martin Hansen.
I just assumed Tim would have done his homework. After all, he posted the article. Or is this one of those forums where only anti-Bush, anti US, anti anti anti remarks are true & the rest just made up by us folks with nothing much better to do?
Posted by ??? on Apr 15, 2003 at 7:09 AM Tim
I question all media sources. They are in it for the money and there’s nothing we love buying more than drama!
I am just not one of those paranoid people who runs around thinking my gov’t is out to get me. Sorry.
Do you have some inside track to the truth that the rest of us don’t?
Do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the “truths” you believe in are really the truth & not just lies masquerading as the truth?
Isn’t it really just your opinion that you have formed by reading so much anti crap that you have actually turned into Mr. Anti?
I suggest you take two valiums & call Dr. Phil in the morning.
Have a nice evening. It’s bedtime.
Posted by ??? on Apr 15, 2003 at 7:26 AM Let’s not get emotional, all of us from both sides. We are here to know the truth, and none of us know it for sure. We are here to contribute at least a piece to the jigsaw puzzle we are trying to solve and later it is up to each of us to connect the pieces in a way that seems logical and see the whole picture. “I am right and others are wrong” thinking is the one we are against to begin with and let’s not fall prey to such animal instinct.
Posted by oumer on Apr 15, 2003 at 7:59 AM shame on democracy? if you do not accept Micheal Moore¥s opinions thats fine and your right as an American but to try to censor his opinions is perhaps wrong; it is not freedom of speach if you can¥t speak. As a European its different for us ;we have a choice if we don¥t like it we change the channel.
Posted by greigless on Apr 15, 2003 at 11:31 AM Dom from Long Island,
Do your neighbors cross the street when they see you coming the other way? As usual, your comments start out crystal clear and thoughtful, and then they just degenerate into a litany of frenzied rage which detract from any thing you previously say that actually get me to think about things. Take it easy….
Therapy and/or medication can help (sarcasm).
A couple things from your last posting need to be addressed:
First, there hasn’t been a draft since 1975, so how can we conservatives be “draft-dodgers?” And I did serve in the military (the AMERICAN military, that is).
Second, I’m not pro-life (or pro-choice for that matter). I’m what I call “pro-baby.” You figure it out.
Third, I am very much in favor of capital punishment. Dom, you have an excellent vocabulary, you really do. Look up another word when you get a chance: “victim.” Let me guess - you thought Timothy McVeigh was a great guy who deserved to grow old….
Fourth, the current percentages of minorities in the military is just about on par with those of the general population.
You said that my positivity was made of glass. You know what? That may very well be the case. But I’ll take that over your rock-hard negativity and rage any day of the week, my friend…..
Posted by Conservative D on Apr 15, 2003 at 1:27 PM Here’s something for all the Bushniks out there.Israel recently asked for $8 Billion (by law, Israel doesn’t pay back ANY loan…ever!) Bush gave them $9 Billion!)Unlike other aid recipients, Israel gets the $ up front. Since we don’t have it, we borrow it to give to them and we pay the prin.+ interest on it while they make interest. [FYI in 2002 =$20Bil.]We pay them to kill Palestinians. Are they grateful? 2 quotes from “Butcher” Sharon. After he and 1,000 right-wing fanatics invaded the Temple Mt. to ignite the 2nd Intifada so he could obliterate the Palestinian Authority, Shimon Peres objected his Waffen SS tactics would anger the Americans. Sharon retorted. “Don’t worry about the Americans, Israel and the Jews control them and they know it!” That was quoted on Israeli Radio and in the newspaper Ha’Aretz. In an address to the Knesset, he said. “We own the banks and the media. Without us they are stupid people!” He got that right.We are a colony of Israel,we pay their bills and fight their wars. By the way, Israel is not a democracy, it’s a Theocracy, the only one in the area since the demise of the Tsaliban in Afghan. They don’t even have a Constitution, the supreme law is the Torah. MM had the right title. Stupid White Men. We’re been stupid to the tune of $1.7 Trillion $! For all the assholes who call that Anti-semitic, it’s anti-zionist and THE ARABS ARE SEMITES TOO!
Posted by bobk on Apr 15, 2003 at 2:13 PM To ???:
Regarding a comment in your previous post: “Isn’t it really just your opinion that you have formed by reading so much anti crap that you have actually turned into Mr. Anti?”
I’m still waiting for either an argument from you, or for a response to PNAC’s position.
You can question my credibility all you like, but to do so without providing any evidence whatsoever is what they call “mudslinging,” in propaganda circles. On what basis do you assume that I am so blindly critical?... Furthermore, do you have the “inside track” on what I read?
The articles I referenced for you yesterday were sourced through “EBSCO Host”, an academic online database. I used “peer reviewed” and “academic journal”-filters, and provided all of the bibliographic information you needed to source the information yourself. My suspicion is that you have not consulted these print sources, since if you had, you would surely have addressed their content, rather than defaulting to character attacks.
You indicated, interestingly, that you “question all media sources,” and go on to say “they are in it for the money and there’s nothing we love buying more than drama!” You’ve inadvertently hit on one of the criteria for media analysis, here. That is: What are the commercial interests of the media we are examining?
Playing “follow the money” is certainly an entertaining game, particularly with larger, corporate-controlled media. It is more difficult to imagine what broad and sinister financial motivation there is for academics to write peer-reviewed journal articles based on falsehoods, wouldn’t you think?
So no, I don’t “have some inside track to the truth that the rest of us don’t?”...But I hope that my position, whatever it is, is supported by more than hearsay, and my arguments based on more than libel.
Posted by Tim on Apr 15, 2003 at 10:29 PM Mike has finally brought the truth to the masses. Thanks goodness. It is about time. Too bad they did not give him an hour on prime time.
Thanks Mike. I have enjoyed your website as well.
Keep the peace.
Posted by Al Bob on Apr 15, 2003 at 11:02 PM I think it’s sad that our country has gotten to the stage where soft money political contributions from major corporations are protected as “freedom of speech”, but words of dissent or disagreement with our government’s policies are condemned as unpatriotic and threatened with censorship.
Posted by cj on Apr 16, 2003 at 1:05 AM Tim
Sorry I have insulted your obvious superior mentality.
I, too, could sit here in my spare time surfing, finding link after link & article after article with excellent arquments as well as accusations to support my views but what would be the point?
You seem determined to make Bush out to be the anti-Christ & my country to be a bunch of redneck warmongers who love terroizing others.
So go ahead & continue your tirade against my country. Just keep in mind as you close your eyes tonight & go to sleep who it is that keeps YOUR country safe.
Posted by ??? on Apr 16, 2003 at 1:16 AM You need to apply for a job at CNN where the truth has been foresaken fo ran agenda. You are not a journlist, you are spinner.
Posted by Tom Sheehy on Apr 16, 2003 at 1:40 AM What a great country we live in, free speach was given by the soldier not the peot, free press was given by the soldier not the reporter, it is the soldier who salutes the flag carries the flag whos body is draped with the flag when he is killed that gave us the right to burn the flag.
Posted by Steven Mahoney Sr on Apr 16, 2003 at 2:19 AM Conservative D:
Thanks for the praise :)You asked where the hatred/misunderstanding for America comes from, so I thought I’ll try to explain the way I see things. Then, after writing about two pages, I reconsidered – I guess this is too much to post, so I’ll try to shrink it down a bit ;)
I see two different types of negative feelings against the US – the ones coming from friends, like the Europeans, and the ones from the 3rd world, like the people in the middle east.
You suggest this thing about visiting countries (and the problems with that) – that is mainly something that probably might help the situation with the friends – it would be great, but on the other side, I think that in the long run the transatlantic friendships will heal anyways. Besides it might help to stop insulting the French, it might help to talk to some american WW2 vet to get the right perspective about the “axis of weasels”, and what happens if they DO go to war.With the 3rd world – whole different story. America has done such appalling things to them, be it double standards, war-mongering, blackmailing, support for dictators and whatnot, that I think the only way to change their feeling about the US is to put the money where the mouth is and actually SHOW them that America can be trusted and won’t bully or exploit them. This means, that the US would have do start to look for fair political solutions instead of trying to impose “what’s best for them” by violence, and this will take a good amount of time. I don’t think that bombing Iraq is a good way to create that sort of frame of mind, even if it’s to get rid of Saddam – the whole arab world now feels humiliated and I’m afraid that that’s nothing that can be fixed with a can of coke and some chewing gum. On top of that the message the US have sent to the whole world (UN) during this whole affair is “yeah, it’s nice to talk to ya, but actually we don’t care bout what you say – we got great guns”. This behaviour has isolated the country, which after 9/11 was quite a hard thing to do.
continued…
Posted by ProudEuropean on Apr 16, 2003 at 3:12 AM continued…
You mentioned, that you never begrudged any other country – that may be true, but you probably voted for the people who did it – in your name. Make no mistake – this is not only Bush/GOP related. If you EVER during the last 40 years voted for a president, you still allowed those people to do that things.
Of course that’s a common problem with politicians – we elect them, and then they start doing whatever they want. The crucial point is to observe them, criticise and question what they do, and listen to and think about what people like e.g. Mike Moore have to say, even if you don’t agree. Critics usually have some point or another, and it’s always worth to hear what they have to say. At least one can say, that as long as they are able to speak up, some part of the democratic process is still alive. And, as I pointed out in my last post, I have the feeling that many americans have mixed up being a patriot with unquestioning support for the administration.
Posted by ProudEuropean on Apr 16, 2003 at 3:12 AM Who keeps my country safe from WHAT, exactly?
From Evil? From “Terror?” From “Communism?” From Islam? From Greed? (From Syria?)
From tyrant dictators, trained in combat, propped up financially, and supplied militarily by my own government?
Who keeps my country safe from those who would erode the values of freedom and democracy both at home and abroad, while pursuing dubious wars for self-serving ends?
(...)
Was the answer to your rhetorical question that “The United States of America keeps me safe?”
Or maybe it is YOU, “???,” who keeps me safe… Side-stepping any sort of rational dialogue… suppressing dissent through name-calling…protecting me from the looming evil of critical awareness, while cloaking your opinions behind a string of disembodied question marks?Perhaps “safety,” in that light, is not the highest goal, or at least not a goal I am especially interested in.
I prefer some ideal of truth…even if that means exposing something either my country or I have done that is less “noble” than I would have hoped.
(*Note: Is writing messages and signing them with my name another one of the strategies you wish to employ while “defending” me from myself?)I am still waiting for you to make any sort of rational argument.
Posted by Tim on Apr 16, 2003 at 3:43 AM Hard to pin you down, Martin.
When you answer a poll question, you’re not allowed to change the question. The question again was: Would you prefer no Saddam and no artifacts or Saddam still in power and the Museum intact. There’s not a choice that includes No Saddam and artifacts safe or No Saddam but only after we get permission from France, Germany, and Russia. So I’m still waiting for a concise answer.
And it does matter what you want, because if people of your apparent attitude had their way, Saddam would still be in power. The sanctions eventually would be dropped, Saddam or his healthy young sons would be raking in billions in oil sales and be back to their old habits of developing nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons. Once he had nukes, it’d be a little more difficult to keep him from expanding his empire, and to keep his neighbors from wanting to develop their own deterrence.
Let me demonstrate the proper way to answer a poll question by answering yours. It was: “Was this looting justified in the eyes of the millions of millions of people living in Iraq, but NOT in Baghdad?”
My answer is NO. It was not justified. I don’t think any of the 22 million Iraqi people would say it was justified.
I did make light by saying maybe they could sell the artifacts and afford to fly to the U.S. for tongue reconstruction surgery. I apologize if that offended your high regard for the museum, but it was only humor and not meant to say that I condoned the looting of the museum. I don’t think anyone does. (Actually I am quite ashamed of our military for not being on top of this situation that was apparently brought to their attention months ago.)
Posted by Liloan Stitch on Apr 16, 2003 at 6:21 AM continued…......
But let’s not stop the polling with the Iraqi people. Others in this area share in its history and probably would also say that the looting of the museum was not justified. But what would they decide given the choice of Saddam plus artifacts or no Saddam minus artifacts?
Saudi Arabia is probably glad they are safe from Saddam’s designs on their oil fields. How would they vote?
How would Kuwaitis vote given Saddam’s recent “visit” to their country? Would they possibly vote to forego the artifacts and be rid of Saddam’s omnipresence?
How about the young America-loving population of Iran who secretly hope the U.S. will invade their country next. How would they vote?Your negative suspicions of American intentions takes me back to my original post. I tried to point out how Michael Moore’s selective editing of the tape of history and replaying it to the world as if raw and un-cut should raise questions about the validity of his overall message. I don’t know where you’ve learned what you think makes America tick, but I can’t help wonder if it’s from a lot of sources similar to Moore.
Here’s another view by someone close to your longitude. Brace yourself for a positive charge.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,482-645577,00.html
Liloan Stitch
Posted by Liloan Stitch on Apr 16, 2003 at 6:22 AM Conservative D:
Even if you don¥t have the extra cash to visit other countries, there are ways, like libraries, to find out more about other countries if you are interested. When I visited the US for the first time (over 20 Years ago) I was really shocked when I watched the news of a local TV channel. All they broadcasted was local, mostly crimes, very little national. I was used to getting “worldnews” every time I turned on the news. So my personal opinion is that Europeans are better informed from childhood on.
When I visited last time in January/ February, I was in for another shock. The atmosphere had changed dramatically. I had been back every few years. The people I never knew to have an opinion, now had raised their voices for Bush and war. No opposition at all from the quiet majority.
After about a week we were invited and it came to an arguement. I had before heard on CNN a comment “the routine bombing of Iraq of 3-5hrs had been extented to seven hours that day”. My statement was denied until one person said she knows somebody on the “Constallation” who was already in the gulf and he could hear the bombing daily. The people would not have believed me. But did from a Pro Bush person.
On the way home, alone in the car, the driver told me. She said you know since 9/11 things have gotten so bad here you cannot say anything against the gouvernment anymore. You are automatically Anti American. They don¥t want to hear that you cannot blame Saddam for 9/11.
This is my very personal experience. The people who love their country and don¥t want to be marked Antiamerican do not speak up if they disagree with what is happening. It takes a lot of guts to do that.
All the pro Bush people please give it a thought that with your opinion you will never experience that. The public will not pin the Antiamerican mark on you if you speak out your opinion.
Posted by blue on Apr 16, 2003 at 7:54 AM continued to Conservative D and others
When I got back this time in February I had one question on my mind: what had happened to these people I know so well, some I had watched growing up. When I saw Michael Moore¥s movie I got an answer. His fear theory. Liloan is the perfect example with her statement above. The US gouvernment and your media have done a perfect job. People like Liloan and all the others are now capable of constructing their own fantasies of what would have happened if Saddam would not have been attacked. And how the US have to be protected.
When I read through the posts stating: “if you don¥t like it, leave,” Of course I was thinking, again, of the people I know. Now these people mostly don¥t even know another country. They are perfectly happy were they are. where should they go? that gave me an idea how they would feel, if they were couragous enough to speak out. You might just like to pay a little more attention to the people who are quiet.
I am not Antiamerican, no matter what you might say.
Growing up in Germany I always had to live with our Nazi past. No matter what my personal believes are or were. It hurts me more than I could say to see the USA and the American people, I care so much about, are going into a stage where fear is switching off reality. I always wondered how the German people could believe their Nazileaders. They were so obviously wrong. I got my answer also from these previous posts. Maybe you can just consider this: people who speak against your gouvernment might not hate “America” they might simply care.
Bush is Bush and Hitler was Hitler. So don¥t even think I am trying to compare them. It still should be possible to say things that people experienced here and is now happening in your country. One thing is for sure: if me and all the other people are wrong, fine nothing of harm will happen!! But if you are wrong, the world will be in for a great deal of sorrow.
I know I got very personal and very emotional. But maybe sometimes it is better to share personal ideas to understand the whole issue.
Posted by blue on Apr 16, 2003 at 9:39 AM so here we are again, the real meaning of the democracy USA brought to IRAQ, the 15 people killd while they were marching to protect their ideas, my compliments to the killers, oh pardon, the heroes that bush sent in order to spread his idea of democracy, which at this stage I must say is shared by Saddam himself, since the methods seems the same
Posted by fabio on Apr 16, 2003 at 10:05 AM Tim
I have read most of your earlier posts.
It is obvious that your mind is made up & nothing I have to offer will change your mind so why bother?
We can swap well written articles all night long but what would that accomplish?
No one else has been able to get through to you with thought provoking, well written posts so why should I think I would be different?
And I am certain you won’t change my mind. Not about this.
While I don’t always agree with everything my gov’t does, I believe liberating the Iraqi’s was the right thing to do & if that makes me evil & horrible then so be it!
Not all of us which to live our lives in a perpetual state of paranoia.
Posted by ??? on Apr 16, 2003 at 10:18 AM Fabio
Italy is also part of the coalition in Iraq or hadn’t you heard?
Guess that makes your country murderers as well!
Posted by ??? on Apr 16, 2003 at 10:22 AM I am really sorry, it is free speech I was writing above. I forgot to mention
Posted by blue on Apr 16, 2003 at 10:31 AM for ???
italy will send some soldiers for peace keeping , did not sent any soldier for the attack neither planes ships whatever
anycase you are not far from thruth, in italy we have a right wing government which is not represesentative of the people will, Berlusconi, our premier, is just like bush if not even worst, in fact he keep on hiding from the judges that want to trial him for stealing money, corrupting politicians, cooperating with mafia etc….
anycase no italian soldier killed anybody in IRAQ so far
Posted by fabio on Apr 16, 2003 at 10:46 AM Blue
A very touching post indeed & even those of us who support the war hope & pray that it was indeed the right thing to do.
I believe in this case it was & hope like you do that as we move forward that things will unfold in a positive light.Peace to all
Posted by ??? on Apr 16, 2003 at 11:06 AM My sincere apologies Fabio.
I was under the impression Italy already had limited troops in Iraq.
Posted by ??? on Apr 16, 2003 at 11:10 AM I have drawn up a list of ‘rogue nations’. I have put a quick note next to each country to explain why this should be so.
China - “Totalitarian” state with poor (non - existant) human rights, weapons of mass distruction and aggresively expansionist (Tibet, Taiwan etc.)
N. Korea - “Totalitarian” state with poor (non - existant) human rights, weapons of mass distruction and aggresively expansionist (S. Korea?)
Saudi Arabia -
China - “Totalitarian” state with poor (non - existant) human rights, a stranglehold on the worlds oil supply, source of many of Al - Quedas lieutenantsIsrael - “Theocratic” state with poor (non - existant) human rights (If your non Jewish) weapons of Mass destruction and an aggressively expansionist
U.S.A. - “Democratic” state with poor (non - existant) human rights. Weapons of mass destruction and they beat all comers for sheer blood thirst.
Zimbabwe - “Democratic” state with poor (non - existant) human rights (if your white)
So there we have it. A bunch of grade A, god honest nutcase nations.
So there we have it . Psychos are all around. The threat is not from some looney fringe. American wouldnt sign Kyoto, ignores treaties on rights of the child, landmines, chemical weapons and lets not forget NEUTRON weaponry?? (Neutron weapons produce ‘hard (very hard) radiation which has a very short half life. The bomb wipes out ALL living organisms in a defined area and leaves buildings and ‘resources’ standing - because in America a childs life is worth about a quarter barrel of oil, depending on the going rate) and trys to lecture us about FREEDOM? I know that the other nations on the list are dangerous, ‘rogue states’ but I am not constantly bombarded with their culture, TV programming, literature, political idealisms, music etc. Although this is not always a bad thing, it does not go both ways. Smart - asses love to go on TV and make smart comments about ‘backward’ countries like France and Germany but the reality is that your average American is an incredibly (and I mean INCREDIBLY) ignorant, moronic fool. Sorry folks but stupidity is a national virtue (damn even your President thinks that intelligence is a vestigal trait [no, thats not entirely true, he wouldnt have the foggiest idea what vestigal means]). Finally, is France ‘le worm?’ Yep, it sure is! Is America the greatest danger to global peace since the nazis?? Oh yeah!
Posted by Ian - Oh on Apr 16, 2003 at 11:35 AM for ???
ok Iraq is free, why your govnmt. will not let the UN take up the matter now? Saddam is not there any more, do you fear that UN may use Saddam’s chemical weapons (if they find it) against the world? American’s denying to UN to accomplish their role is the confirmation of the suspects about USA oil thirst and the scope of this war, which is very far from getting rid of a dictator, it’s just a substitution, and the new rulers got bad weapons for real not just in the fantaasy
Posted by fabio on Apr 16, 2003 at 12:54 PM I personally believe that the UN should be heavily involved in the rebuilding of Iraq and am hopeful that Colin Powell will be able to convince the President of this also.
Just for the record- the UN isn’t being kept out of post war Iraq but I agree that the UN should be as involved in seating a new gov’t as they are in humanitarian efforts.
Posted by ??? on Apr 16, 2003 at 1:16 PM what you think is right and holy, eurpeans mostly have the same idea, probably the whole world including UK, unfortunately mr bush do not agree and it’s easy to understand the reason why
Posted by fabio on Apr 16, 2003 at 1:28 PM Many, many thanks to people like ProudEuropean, Blue, and Tim for presenting their views in an adult and thoughtfull manner.
While I don’t agree with most of the comments presented on this site, I have come to appreciate the difference between hating America and criticizing America in the hope that it can be better.
That is a distinction I don’t think I could have made a month ago.
Goodbye, all - I wish everybody peace, truth, and justice.
Conservative D signing off…...
Posted by Conservative D on Apr 16, 2003 at 1:40 PM Fabio
I think other parts of the world have a misconception about the US. Honestly, most of us are hard working , law abiding, decent people who love our family, country, etc.
And to be honest I had no idea that the European community viewed us (the US) so harshly until this war & it does trouble me.
I don’t think Bush is a bad man. I think he is doing his best to deal with the extraordinary cards he has been dealt since taking office.
I respect all people Fabio & believe that our differences are what makes us special & I pray that world peace is not too far away.
Posted by ??? on Apr 16, 2003 at 1:46 PM Fabio
I must be off to work! The bill collector waits for no one!
You have a great day & perhaps we’ll meet up again.
Peace to you & to all!
Posted by ??? on Apr 16, 2003 at 2:08 PM dear ???
I can see there are many many americans with principles, democratic feelings and correctness, I do not like bush and his supporters because I do not think he is in good faith or honest in any way, I think he is working mostly for his business partners and himself, I think that the homless or unemployed, public health and public schools should receive more attention than the ghost weapons never used against USA
Posted by fabio on Apr 16, 2003 at 2:18 PM beisdes the fact that without respecting international organizations or agreements like Tokyo, or the court for the war crimes or the traty for the nuclear weapons and so on, acting always on your own you dividing yourself from the real democratic bodies that are trying to better the world by peaceful means
Posted by fabio on Apr 16, 2003 at 2:20 PM Iraqis not only heard the noise of british airplanes, but also died and get maimed from it. And they were supposed to run down the street and celebrate. But, since some people are more equal than others, they get almost a million pounds just because the noise was too disturbing!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/england/lincolnshire/2952611.stm
Posted by oumer on Apr 16, 2003 at 2:32 PM However saddned I am by the above story, I am a little relieved the ruling went that way:-( What would we have said if the ruling was
“The air force performs these acts because of the bad people in Iraq. As a result the court will demand a billion pound compensation for all our people who suffered from the noise pollution of our aircrafts to be payed by the people of Iraq. In order to do so, we will allow Iraq to ‘sell’ more oil until this compensation is fully paid. Till then, the oil-for-food program will be known as the oil-for-food-and-noise-pollution program”
Posted by oumer on Apr 16, 2003 at 4:13 PM To Lilo:
>>How about the young America-loving population of Iran who secretly hope the U.S. will invade their country next. How would they vote?<<
I’ll have what you’re having, (Magic Mushrooms by the looks of it). USA is still the great satan and even if there is a push for democracy in Theran, don’t for a second think that this applies to the rural areas.
And then there’s Saudi Arabia. Dude, a huge chunk of the population HATES your guts. They would see you out of Saudi Arabia before they saw Saddam go. Al Qaeda supporters have 90 percent approval ratings in some parts of the country. USA IS the great white satans to them.
And then finally the “Freedom loving people of Kuwait”. They hate you slightly less than the Saudis, but they still hate USA, (Well foreigners to be specific, but you have the troops there), so much that they hardly acknowledge that USA helped them beat Saddam Hussein.
And what I mean doesn’t matter, you’re right. I come from a small country, with no army and no military clout. For years we’ve supported USA, and lordy we even supported you again, but this time the Danish public is starting to grumble in the corners. A friend of mine expressed it like this, and he’s in the Danish army mind you:
“For many years we’ve been an ally of USA, a small one but an ally none the less. Now we’re nothing more than the Ho of the USA pimp.”
His sentiment mirrors the Danish Public to a large extend and nothing, barring an about face in the Bush Administration is going to change it. We feel trampled underfoot, stepped on and abused. IF we had done it for money, we’d have been a true Ho, but as it is we’re really just your bitch.
But mine, and a LOT of Europeans, menas nothing to you. We got that message. Loud and clear.
Martin Hansen.
P.S. I DID answer your Black and White poll. I answered that no Saddam was still to be preferred, but to link that to the plundering is just weird.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 16, 2003 at 4:50 PM I just want to say thank you to Michael Moore for telling us that what happened in the US could happen here in France very soon.
I have to go to Iowa next summer, and I’m a little afraid. I read in the newspapers that teir was a anti-French website, “fuckfrance.com”, so went on it. I NEED HELP ! Come on, help me !
Posted by ledamien on Apr 16, 2003 at 6:30 PM This story is so great. It is so wonderful to hear how many stars are speaking out about out ficticious President, who as Michael Moore so accurately stated, goes to war for fictitous reasons. Michael Moore we are so proud of you for speaking out for so many of us who the media is trying to silence. I have worried that the McCarthy era is resurfacing. When the Academy Awards and the media continue to try an silence the voice of the people, it is a sad day. Surely they must realize that the more that they do that, the more obvious it is to the American people and the world, that we are rapidly loosing our freedom. If we want it back we need to put on trial the Bush gang for their crimes against humanity and impeach them for stealing our country and all the Noble principles for which it stands.
Posted by Osalina on Apr 16, 2003 at 10:13 PM Michael Moore - you are GREAT!!!!!
For having the integrity in your great moment to keep enough of a lid on your anger to expose this fascist regime for what it is, and so eloquently - the dissenters can’t even find Michigan on the map, unless they’re from there - you uncovered a president who so twisted the supreme court in the face of his obvious defeat that I don’t think they’ll ever regain the trust of the literary citizenry again, a VP who used to run Halliburton, one of the largest oil co’s in the world who also has the cushy contract to rebuild post-war Iraq - that should further help his net worth, and let’s not forget the good ‘ole Sec’y of Defense who used to be CEO of Pharmacia, owner of Monsanto, who w/the FDA’s blessing and without animal or human trials whatsoever was permitted to splice the DNA of RoundUp pesticide into such crops as corn and soy (see RoundUp Corn, RoundUp Soy, GMO’s) with NO REGARD for anything but enhanced profits… perhaps we’ll see the effects that ingesting wholesale amounts of pesticides have on humans in this generation, though I seriously doubt that anything other than mis-diagnoses would ever clear the FDA - protector of the pharmaceutical cartels and giants like Monsanto - who contribute ridiculous sums to the Feds at all levels every year to help maintain their (and this administration’s) stranglehold on this once free country. We are surely headed as a country, as a people and as a human race for a cataclismic end all for the greedy ambitions of a few Stupid white Madmen!!! Even Colin Powell was dismissed for suggesting that the UN should play a decisive role in post-war Iraq by his “colleagues” in favor of good ‘ole big brother, the Pentagon - that should keep the intelligence community busy for at least the next century.
Posted by seth on Apr 17, 2003 at 2:28 AM For the strategy to deal with the Iraq occupation and weapons of mass destruction, see David Cortright’s “What We Do Now”:
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20030421&s=cortright
Also, see Patrick Carkin’s “Saddam is Gone ... So What’s the Peace Movement’s Problem?”:
Posted by an observer of White House & media "news" on Apr 17, 2003 at 5:43 AM The UN should have continued control over the Iraq Oil-for-Food program to finance the interim occupation government until Iraqis are able to elect their own government (I am still waiting for the Bush administration to announce when the elections will be held!). Remember that about half of the people of Iraq depended on the Iraqi government for their food rations from the Oil-for-Food program. The ownership of the oil wells and reserves should remain with the Iraqi government after the election of its legitimate leaders so that the revenues can be used for the country’s economic and social development. I am not against private property per se, but I am against unregulated private ownership of monopolistic and oligopolistic industries especially in the context of the conversion of public-sector ownership to privatization.
Anyone who knows anything about neoclassical microeconomics knows that consumers are at the mercy of privately-owned monopolies and oligopolies due to the lack of competition. Oil is an oligopolistic industry because of the limited number of competitors nationally and globally and the huge start-up and operating costs required to compete with existing companies. Look at what happened with privatization of another oligopolistic industry-utilities- in California as consumers were gouged (wholesale prices went up by 1,000%!) by Enron’s and their cronies’ supply manipulation. See former chief economist of the World Bank and Nobel-prize economist Joseph Stiglitz’s analysis of the pitfalls of the oversimplification of the virtues of privatization in the context of Russia’s and Eastern Europe’s transition to market economies: http://www.worldbank.org/research/abcde/pdfs/stiglitz.pdf
Given that Saddam Hussein probably siphoned off and spent all past oil revenues, what domestic Iraqi investors will have the financial resources in the hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars to, first of all, purchase at the current market-rate asset value, let alone operate and invest to develop the Iraqi oil industry? The U.S. and British oil companies will be the only players and all the profits will go directly to the shareholders of ExxonMobil, Shell/Texaco, BP, Halliburton, etc.
Posted by an observer of White House & media "news" on Apr 17, 2003 at 5:48 AM On the U.S. oil grab and reconstruction profiteering in Iraq, see Naomi Klein’s “Lookout: Privatization in Disguise”:
Posted by an observer of White House & media "news" on Apr 17, 2003 at 5:52 AM I never said I wouldn’t help a wounded American soldier, you jerk, Conservative D.
“I’ve threatened bodily harm to people.” Yeah, I lost my temper at the stupid Mick comment.
Oh, what’s this, let’s go after ANOTHER country with weapons of mass distruction? Told you so, told you so, told you so.
The more you try to suppress you, the louder we get.
The more yo
Posted by neil on Apr 17, 2003 at 8:52 AM We talk about liberating the Iraqi people, while killing thousands of citizens, starve children, destroy their water, electricity and hospitals and we subject their children to bombs that could go off for years to come, is that really liberation. Suddamn could have been tried for crimes against humanity through the U.N. and prevented this. Rumsfelt sold chemical weapons to Suddamn and knew he was using them on Iran and his own people. As long as he was willing to let a pipeline in Iraq give oil to them, that was fine. Now their Companies have a 400 billion dollar contract for rebuilding Iraq. I read that the police group contracted to police the Iraqi people from Texas, is being investigated for running a prostitution ring in Bosnia with 12 year olds and raping a woman on video. Also being sued for spraying toxic chemicals in Columbia on food crops and killing children from their crop dusting. The Academy Awards and American Media should be ashamed of themselves for the way they have handled Michael Moore and all the stars who have been brave enough to speak out. How dare we tell the world that we are fighting for democrasy and freedom, when we do not even really have it in America anymore. Our President was elected by handful of paid Judges.
What better way to secure our homeland, than to make the criminals responsible for all the violence and chaos they created. Make them pay the bill for all the hopeless and starving people of the world. We the people of America need to take back our country through impeachment. When our soldiers discover that Bush has cut 28 billion from the veterans program, the police force whittled away, the fire departments, schools, hospitals, senior care, charities run dry, millions loose work, It will sink in.
Mr. Bush acts as if we have an unlimited Budget for war after war that he continues to incite. He does not know the meaning of the word diplomacy. He wants 550 billon plus for tax cuts for his rich friends. Yet he has no money for caring for our basic needs of America or huanitarian needs of Iraq after destroying it.
How long can his charade last. Eventually, people are bound to realize that he and his group are criminals. Our Planet is in Danger. As Notradamus predicted, at the turn of the century, the Villiage Idiot will rule the most powerful Nation on Earth. If you enjoy life on this Planet, let these men pay for their crimes and let there be peace on Earth once more.
Posted by Os on Apr 17, 2003 at 9:31 AM OS
no need for nostradamus to see that an idiot is ruling your country, what is even worst is that the idiot is also a criminal and have a lot of similar friends in key functions of the country
why don’t real americans boycott the country? if you do not feed them they’ll fall for sure, quit thinking about the backyard and the car installments there’s need for common problem resolution, loosing few dollars is nothing compared to the loss of democracy
Posted by fabio on Apr 17, 2003 at 10:00 AM Martin,
Why did you bring hatred for America into how Iraq’s neighbors feel about Saddam? I was simply saying that not just the Iraqi people and me and you are glad Saddam is gone, but his neighbors are as well. I know a lot of them and you hate America. That has little to do with my point. I do know there’s a lot of young Iranians that love America and want us to help overthrow their oppressors. I did not say that all of Iran loves America. That’s not even true in this country.
Another thing I know is that each and every Iraqi exile living in America loves America and nobody on the left in this country had the slightest interest in hearing their stories of torture, rape and death. Nor did they care to hear from Saddam’s former scientists trying to make them understand the unstoppable determination of Saddam to continue his weapons programs. They were having too much fun comparing Bush to Hitler.
My link to plundering is not weird, it’s based on your “it’s alllllll worth it” implication that it wasn’t worth it to overthrow Saddam in light of the looting of the museum. And, your reluctance to clearly state your position, without adding more conditions. I see you have made it clear that indeed you are glad Saddam is gone and would not trade his return for the return of the artifacts. Black and white polls have a purpose. They force one to make a clear choice. By that choice, one can discern some very basic things.
Posted by Liloan Stitch on Apr 17, 2003 at 10:12 AM continued…....
Believe it or not, I use to be a liberal. I cheered as Bill Clinton beat daddy Bush. Yes!, Yes!, God I hate that stupid Republican, I cheered. Republicans are just for the rich, we were told again and again. But in the last 10 years or so, the left leaning media that so dominated for decades was finally faced with some competition from the right. I listened and learned and realized that most views from the right are at least as valid as views from the left. And in some cases, they are even superior. I was angry I’d been cheated out of a balanced view of the world for so long by the liberal media.
My theory is that many Europeans and perhaps you have been cheated as well. We all know the Arab world hears only one side. Perhaps in your case you have been exposed to both sides and have made up your mind. That’s fine and I would certainly respect that. I for one have gone through quite a metamorphosis in the last 10 years or so and it’s from finally hearing from both sides of the spectrum.
It’s been an interesting back and forth with you. Thank you for taking the time to respond to my posts. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Aloha,
Gary Bergman aka Liloan Stitch
Posted by Liloan Stitch on Apr 17, 2003 at 10:13 AM http://illdill.org - War is great! We should kill everyone else, and when were done, start killing each other. Oh wait, I think thats already the direction were going in, sorry.
Posted by Timothy Dicks on Apr 17, 2003 at 6:05 PM I can understand how people who cut and paste information in their minds and no longer bother to read between the lines, feel that this war is justified. From outer appearances getting rid of such a cruel dictator as Suddamn is a great thing, no one of conscience could disagree. For that I rejoice for the people too. But, it is possible that if Bush had allowed the U.N. to trie him for his crimes against humanity with the support of the entire world, we could have saved the Iraqi people, having their country destroyed, thousands killed, bomblets worse than landmines, subject to go off for years, a toxic environment, starvation and dehydration and now cholera from lack of sanitation. Also the hatred of the entire world from our own self serving pompous and arrogant President and cronies.
Blind Nationalistic Pride is what allowed Germans to follow Hitler. I only pray that America wakes up before we become the next Nazi Nation. There are peaceful solutions to every problem with enough patience. Ofcourse Bush and Cronies made sure that we will never know that other solutions could have freed the people of Iraq, without all the destruction and chaos. Give Peace a Chance
Posted by Os on Apr 17, 2003 at 7:06 PM One thing that the Academy Awards Ceremony did provide for Americans and the world to see, is the obviousness of how are country has been silenced from open debate about issues of grave concerns for us all. It really makes us all wonder if the media and their families are not afraid for their lives.
When the Monica story hit the news, there were literally no holes barred. Even though the situation in no way threatened our National Security and was none of our business. It was quite humourous to see how right wing christians turned the evening news into porn they are such crusaders of banning.
Many parents had to make their kids leave the room when the news came on. We learned such intimate deatails about our Presidents sex life, to the brand of cigars he used to pleasure Monica with.
Now that we have issues with our non-elected President over matters that threaten million of lives, we are told we are unamerican for even questioning them out loud. We are told that we were endangering our troops overseas by merely wanting them not to be maimed or killed. We were told it was disrepectful of their families at home for asking for their safe return. Quite strange how that should be so offensive to anyone who cares for their family.
While are soldiers are over their risking their lives for ours and the Iraqi freedoms, to think that should be so offensive for us to exercise our free speech on their behalf, also makes you wonder. If they are offended, have they forgotten what freedom and democrasy is all about.
We really need to question any Government who intimidates people for speaking out about a Presidency who has enraged the world against us, destroyed our economy and has nothing in place to deal with any humanitarian crisis that they have caused both overseas and in our on country. Do Americans really beleive we have unlimited money to fight every country that our President insults and wants something from, but no money for caring for peoples needs.
Define democrasy, is it about parroting our leaders no matter how foolish or does it still stand for freedom, justice and liberty for all?
Posted by Os on Apr 17, 2003 at 10:18 PM Michael Moore stood up durring the oscars and did exactly what every American, and every human being on this plannet has, and should have the right to do. This article obviously never made the main stream media for a ‘good reason’, it causes the intelligent people of the US to use their own brain and open their eyes, something the government and media feel they are incapable of doing responsibly. Or, maybe they are just affraid of what would happen if suddenly the majority of the people in your country started to give a damn and stand up and say what they really think without the help of big brothers finger twitching on the trigger. MM is a great AMERICAN man, he has spoken true in front of the people at every opportunity that has presented itself to him. He does not seek the spotlight in order to fulfill his own agenda, he does it to educate and offer a refreshing breeze of realism in the ficticious american media frenzy. He forces debate by presenting a side of every story that is total common sense, he speaks his mind and questions everything. It’s thanks to people like him, that your country is free today! It’s thanks to people like him, that you do not suffer the same fates as so many of the impoverished nations of our world. It’s thanks to people like him that you do not live under a tyrant who may decide to kill you because your ankle is showing! Yet I read your comments and find that there are people in your country who are too ignorant to understand this, people like dennis miller who on the tonight show decided it would be fun to slander anyone slightly famous who has decided to use their voice against the war. To you people I say that you will reap what you sow. It’s your right to say what ever it is you feel, however it is your responsibility to look at the true consequences of your words in the long term. True freedom only comes to those who deserve it, as americans you may live under your fachist leader as long as you want. As long as people like M.M. are tossed asside because they are rocking the boat that is exactly the fate you shall have. Don’t let your leader ‘tell’ you what to think, let him make a suggestion, then it is your responsibility to mull it over and decide the truth of it.
Posted by Sean on Apr 17, 2003 at 11:14 PM geez neil take a pill and chill.
you make us anti people look bad
Posted by geez on Apr 17, 2003 at 11:54 PM Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:53 a.m. EDT
Bin Laden Bungle Deja Vu: Clinton’s Abu Abbas BlunderWhen ex-President Bill Clinton decided to pass up a 1996 deal to extradite Osama bin Laden to the United States, it wasn’t the first time he let a notorious Mideast terrorist who had killed Americans off the hook.
In May 1996, the same month he turned down Sudan’s offer to hand over bin Laden, Clinton refused to enforce a Senate resolution seeking the extradition of Palestinian terrorist Abu Abbas, who masterminded the 1985 hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro, where New Yorker Leon Klinghoffer was brutally executed.
On May 1, 1996, Clinton held a White House press conference with Palestine Liberation Organization leader Yassir Arafat, where the president was asked about the Senate’s Abbas extradition resolution.
According to a transcript of the exchange obtained by NewsMax, a reporter asked:
“Mr. President, 99 Senators asked for you to and for Chairman Arafat to authorize the extradition of Abu Abbas, the mastermind of the Achille Lauro hijacking. Will you ask the Justice Department to issue an extradition request?”
The reporter continued, “And, Chairman Arafat, would you honor such a request if it came from the United States?”
Clinton declined to respond to the question, even though it was addressed directly to him. Instead, Arafat stepped up to the microphone and praised Abbas as a peacemaker while the president remained silent.
“We should not forget that Abu Abbas came and attended the PNC and voted to change the Covenant of the PLO and to support the peace process,” Arafat told the White House gathering.
Posted by Clintonlover on Apr 18, 2003 at 12:26 AM Clinton had a good reason to bite his tongue on the Abbas extradition question, since a year earlier he had signed an agreement pardoning all PLO members for terrorist acts committed before the signing of the Oslo Peace Accords in 1993.
On Wednesday, Palestinian negotiator Saed Erekat invoked the Clinton deal to seek the release of Abbas, who was captured Monday night in Baghdad by U.S. Special Operations forces. A State Department official told Reuters that the 1995 agreement did not apply to the legal status of individuals being held in a third country.
Clinton’s decision not to enforce the Senate resolution seeking Abbas’ extradition came during the same month he turned down Sudan’s offer for bin Laden.
Though former administration officials have denied that any such arrangement was ever in the works, Clinton himself let the cat out of the bag in an address to a New York business group last year.
“We’d been hearing that the Sudanese wanted America to start meeting with them again,” Clinton told the Long Island Association in February 2002.
“They released [bin Laden]. At the time, 1996, he had committed no crime against America so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America.”
To hear President Clinton’s bombshell revelation Click Here.
Find out what Sen. Hillary Clinton has to say about her husband’s explosive bin Laden confession in Carl Limbacher’s upcoming book, “Hillary’s Scheme: Inside the Next Clinton’s Ruthless Agenda to Take the White House.”
Posted by Clintonlover on Apr 18, 2003 at 12:26 AM Fabio,
Beleive it or not there are many poor Americans. I myself have known homelessness and hunger in the last Bush Administration and nearly died of pnuemonia. His family seems to have that effect on our country. During that time I knew people who worked for social services programs, living in tents in their back yards. In 3 short years Bush Jr. has nearly ruined our economy here in America.
I have lived a simple life, most of my life. I can relate to the hardships of people in other countries. Although in this life I have never known the hardships of war, as most people around the world, I have lived with Native Americans during a crisis in which they were having their people murdered for their land for uranium as late as the 1970’s in America.
This kind of thing is more rare, but I grew up in the 50’s in the south when lynchings were also popular. Perhaps many Americans are too young and sheltered to know first hand these kinds of injustice in our own homeland. Hopefully, people here will wake up to the need to have compassion for our brothers and sisters around the Globe. I have faith in the goodness of the people despite many of our terrible leaders. Peace will prevail someday.
Posted by Os on Apr 18, 2003 at 5:25 AM -
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Also by Joel Bleifuss
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