On day five of the war, it was supremely ironic that network television viewers had to tune into the 75th Annual Academy Awards ceremony to hear voices that questioned the wisdom of the Bush administration. Rumblings of protest began on Saturday. At the Independent Spirit Awards (the award ceremony for independent films) in Santa Monica, California, Maggie Gyllenhaal, the star of… return to article
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Reader Comments (2170)After reading that a british couple were awareded almost a million pound for noise pollution of the RAF planes, ....
Democracy in Action
———————————<Osman is a little kid
just three years old
He used to have that shy smile of a kid
He played a lotBut since the war he has been afraid
He doesn’t know exactly why
He has seen blood everywhere
And this loud, very loud sound
And it is been days since he saw his dadTheir old house is completely gone
And the playground he loved so much
Even the only doll he had
Is lost and he couldn’t find, though he searched for it a lotAnd in that little brain of his
He is wondering, thinking
What is wrong with mom?
What is she lying so still?
Why isn’t she saying something?First he thought it was a game
Like the one they used to play
So he tickled her
Gave her a nudge
NothingUsing his ultimate tool that never failed
he cried like hell
still nothingHe is feeling a little hungry
But he is afraid to go out
....
It is been more than a day now
Since he had anything to eat
And his hungry belly is telling him
To go out and scavenge somethingAnd the deafening sound is still there
What the hell is that?Oh he is so afraid
he can’t get out
But the hunger is tearing him down.....
Two weeks later
And thousands of miles from Osman’s “house”
In some old British townThe court room was adjourned
And the plaintiffs were smiling
Though they didn’t get what they asked
What they got was quite something
Almost a million pounds!“Oh Mr. Dennis, how do you feel?”
Reporters asked the question
“Oh well, the noise was killing me
And my wife
And the children couldn’t sleep at night
And you know, my house
It is a seventeen century one
So when the air force planes passed by
A couple of hinges fell down
I think for such a brutal deed
A million pound is little indeed”
Posted by oumer on Apr 18, 2003 at 10:18 AM Oumer, your poem sucks. Keep that shit to yourself. It’s good for some comic relief but it’s too damn long.
Posted by NO MORE POETRY on Apr 18, 2003 at 1:33 PM hey Play Jurist!!!!
These people don’t want to hear the truth.
If you’re not a paranoid freak who hates your life this isn’t the place for you!!!
Posted by judge on Apr 18, 2003 at 2:17 PM Top Ten Reasons I Am Proud To Be An American (presented by the 622nd Movement Control Team from Fort Eustis, Virginia)
10. “Besides Switzerland, we’re the only country to have a cheese named after us”
9. “We have 49 awesome states…and Delaware”
8. “All our great presidents have been American”
7. “I don’t see Yao Ming playing basketball in Belgium”6. “Our flag is one of the stripiest”
5. “America has more Regises per capita than any other nation on earth”
4. “If the FRENCH don’t like us, we must be doing something right”
3. “Slurpees”2. “You’ll notice the U.S. judges on ‘American Idol’ are very polite. The British one’s the jerk”
1. “It’s where all my stuff is”
Posted by hahahaha on Apr 18, 2003 at 2:56 PM Apr. 17, 2003. 07:06 PM DEVELOPMENTS
KIRKUK, Iraq (AP) - The U.S. military has found an estimated 1,500 unmarked graves in this northern Iraqi city, although it remained uncertain who was buried or how they died.
U.S. military officials day surveyed the site near a military base and industrial park on the southern edge of Kirkuk. Members of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan - one of two main political groups in the northern Kurdish autonomous region - reportedly exhumed one body.The graves, marked only by weeds and little mounds of dirt, were in neat rows stretching several hundreds metres across a parched landscape.
Although little is known about the site, suspicion immediately fell on ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein’s campaigns of war and repression.
Tens of thousands of Kurdish men disappeared in Iraq during Saddam’s rule - part of a drive to crush an independence movement and drive ethnic minorities from oil-rich areas.
Human rights groups say Saddam’s government abducted and murdered them.
After an autonomous region was established in northern Iraq in 1991 under the protection of the United States and Britain, human rights investigators said they found numerous mass graves in areas that had fallen from Saddam’s grasp.
The oil city of Kirkuk was not part of the autonomous region.
Officials have yet to begin a formal investigation of the grave site.
“I’m a scientist by training,” said Officer David Downing, a U.S. civil affairs official brought to the site by journalists. “I’ll wait for the scientific results to come in before I make any conclusions.”
Downing said forensics teams would first have to gauge the layout of the site before digging up corpses for examination.
A Kurdish Iraqi soldier who was based near the site in 1987 said that nighttime caravans often brought bodies to the site.
Residents of a nearby residential district said the bodies of unidentified Iraqi soldiers who died in the 1991 Persian Gulf War were buried there.
“After 1991, it became larger and larger,” said Ramadan Qazi, a worker at a nearby soft drink plant.
Earlier this month, British forces in southern Iraq found about 200 boxes containing human remains in a warehouse near the city of Zubayr and are still investigating how they got there.
This is for all you Saddam lovers! Another mass grave discovered! And Bush is the bad guy here???? Try explaining that to the Kurds!
Posted by Loving America on Apr 18, 2003 at 4:21 PM Horray for Michael Moore! He deserves a great deal of admiration for the balls it took to say what any person with a brain was already thinking. G.W.Bush was not elected. He bought his was into the presidency with 130 million dollars. Now he is raping this very country for billions more to support this fucking war. It is no suprise that his IQ is the lowest of any president ever. Bowling for columbine and Michael Moore deserve praise.
Posted by Amy Lee on Apr 18, 2003 at 5:39 PM Loving America ,
The only people who love saddam are high officials from his former party. Currently, I think they are hiding somewhere and I don’t they will be posting messages here. I think you are wasting your time if you are trying to show to the world that Saddam is a criminal, every sane person knows that. What we would like to know is why the american forces didn’t finish him off during the first gulf war? Why didn’t they allow the opposition to finish him off in the first gulf war? Why Iraq, who has nothing to do with september 11 as far as evidence suggests, were blamed for september 11? Why not Saudi arabia, where most of the hijackers were from and every friday people are beheaded just because they commited adultery in public? Where are iraqis WMDs? Why are only around 150 people celebrating the fall of sadams statue in a country where almost everyone loves to see him go? Why are Iraqis protesting against US occupation today? Why are the Iraqis going to pay for the reconstruction process while it is the coalition forces who destroyed their country? Why did a company formely headed by dick cheney, Halliburton, win the rebuilding of iraqi oil fields on march 8,even before the war started? Why was Iraq’s 12 years of security council disobidence leads to war while more than 30 years of disobediance by Israel is even not mentioned? And most pressing one, how can you justify the death of almost half a million iraqi children because of the sanctions? If you could shed a light on us by answering some of those questions, you are welcome. Otherwise, you will be wasting your time trying to tell us Saddam is a monster, we know! If you really support Bush, I think they really need a lot of help in tearing off the “made in USA” tag from the WMDs that they are currently trying to “find” in Iraq and if you are a real “patriot” they might even let you participate in the “hiding” process
Posted by oumer on Apr 18, 2003 at 5:41 PM We should have backed the Kurds in 1991. Big mistake. Instead we urged them to rise up against evil & then didn’t back them with military assistance. No longer the case.
Saddam hasn’t been blamed for 9-11 although it is common knowledge that Iraq has in the past & still does harbor terroists. (Abu Dhabi arrest.) I think the media has a great deal to do with the misconception that this war is in retaliation for 9-11.
Obviously sanctions don’t work because the poor only suffer more which is another reason I believe Saddam had to go. He made sure humanitarian relief didn’t reach the ones who needed it the most.
The Iraqi’s will not be financing their own rebuilding. Millions of dollars have already been recovered around the world from Saddam’s evil dealings & I suspect there will be more.
Posted by Loving America on Apr 18, 2003 at 5:58 PM After watching the Academy show, I sat back, took a deep breath and said out loud,“Thank God for Michael Moore”.
Posted by Dave on Apr 18, 2003 at 6:25 PM >>We should have backed the Kurds in 1991. Big mistake.
It was not a mistake. It was done deliberatley! read the following articles:
BUSH DEFENDS NON-INTERVENTION IN IRAQ
PRESIDENT BEGINS SPEECH CAMPAIGN TO DEFINE ‘NEW WORLD ORDER’
John E. Yang Washington Post Staff Writer
April 14, 1991BUSH’S IRAQ TRAP
COURTING SADDAM WAS SMART—DEMONIZING HIM WASN’T
Milton Viorst washington post
October 25, 1992IRAQ’S REAL COUP
DID SADDAM SNOOKER SCHWARZKOPF?
Laurie Mylroie washington post
June 28, 1992I am not sure, but some documents seem to suggest that US may not have been “surprised” by Iraq occuping kuwait
PENTAGON SOUGHT EXCHANGE WITH IRAQ
3 MONTHS BEFORE KUWAIT INVASION, U.S. PUSHED MILITARY TRAINING PLAN
R. Jeffrey Smith Washington Post Staff Writer
August 4, 1992And how long does it take for the always “right” american government to figure out the sanctions didn’t work?
ALBRIGHT SAYS U.S. IS ADAMANT ABOUT MAINTAINING SANCTIONS AGAINST SADDAM’S IRAQ
Thomas W. Lippman Washington Post Staff Writer
March 27, 1997;and
Lesley Stahl: “We have heard that half a million children have died [as a result of sanctions against Iraq]. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima…. Is the price worth it? “
Madeleine Albright: “...we think the price is worth it.”
- 60 Minutes, May 12, 1996
Posted by oumer on Apr 18, 2003 at 6:30 PM Also, the Iraqi people aren’t protesting the war. They just want the occupation to be over & a new democratic gov’t to be put in place which is EXACTLY what the coalition is working towards:
AP) - Another top aide to Saddam Hussein has been taken into custody, U.S. military officials said Friday. In Baghdad, thousands protested the U.S. military presence in Iraq, while the head of the Iraqi opposition predicted an interim government would be running the country within weeks.
Opposition leader Ahmad Chalabi, in his first public appearance in Baghdad, said he expects an Iraqi interim authority to be up and running within weeks instead of months, and general elections be held within two years.
Posted by Loving America on Apr 18, 2003 at 6:30 PM http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2959015.stm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Human_Rights/KillingIraq.html
Posted by oumer on Apr 18, 2003 at 6:40 PM In my opinion (how’s that?) we should have invaded Iraq in 1991 & gone after Saddam instead of just encouraging the Iraqi’s to rise up and offer no military backing.
(I will read the links you posted and get back to you for further discussion if you’d like.)
I think my gov’t does realize sanctions don’t work. Unfortunately there are lots of those out there (just read the posts and notice how often continuing sanctions pops up as a solution from alot of anti people) who don’t realize it and in my opinion the UN refused to see it.
Humanitarian relief only works if the truly needy are helped & they weren’t.
Posted by Loving America on Apr 18, 2003 at 6:41 PM http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,444497,00.html
A portion of the article:
Chirac has emphasized that France supports the lifting of sanctions, but that it is up to the UN to determine how that could be done. And that means some tough bargaining lies ahead. Despite the elimination of Saddam Hussein’s regime, ending sanctions is no simple matter for the UN. The reason: the purpose of those sanctions was not regime-change; it was to force Iraq’s withdrawal from Kuwait, and then, after that had been achieved, to eliminate its weapons of mass destruction. On the basis of current resolutions, the only legal mechanism by which the Security Council can terminate the binding sanctions regime is if Iraq is certified by UN arms inspectors to be free of weapons of mass destruction. That would require sending Dr. Hans Blix and his team back into post-Saddam Iraq in order to complete their work. Blix, who is scheduled to brief the Security Council on Tuesday, has urged the coalition to allow his team to resume its work, in order to give any findings greater credibility.
Posted by Loving America on Apr 18, 2003 at 7:28 PM Fabio
I read many of your e-mails and I really appreciated everything that you said, up until you seem to be insulting mine, when all I was doing was agreeing with you. Perhaps I misunderstood you, but your statement about boycotting America and stop spending money on car payments as a solution to our problems, felt not very well thought through.
For one, most people do require a car. I agree that their is a lot of unnessary purchases of new and expensive cars every year, but in some cases the car is the only way people can create an income to pay for even the most basic of needs.
I wish we could all have cars run on clean renewable energy sources and do away with our dependency on oil forever, but right now that is not an option except for the very rich.
However, my proposal is to pass laws that it is illegal to be in politics if you have any financial holdings in oil and gas. Also to stop starting wars for oil and gas. Use the money spent on destroying people to begin retooling the world with safe clean renewable energy sources and care for the real needs of people, around the world who are so hopeless and angry that they commit acts of terrorism in retaliation.
Another solution would be to put on trial dictators who commit crimes against humanity, including our own and using all the money that they have stolen from the people to rebuild our world. This will take time, but something we must begin doing if we ever want a healthy and peaceful planet.
Posted by Os on Apr 19, 2003 at 1:52 AM Hey American
if you want to protest anything do it with a pencil in the voting booth ..in the meantime we real Americans stand behind America. look in the eyes of most iraqis and tell them what a dumb ass idea it was to liberate them.
Posted by Dave Koster on Apr 19, 2003 at 3:39 AM Our Constitution is a spiritual battleground. It is a living revolution over which it’s opponents and allies forever do battle. It’s objectives are liberty or oppression. Although the Constitution’s creators were enlightened men; free men with compassion and liberal ideals, they left the Constiution they created open to modification because they also realized that liberty must always and forever be fought for if it is to have true meaning and power for every generation; for each individual, or group. Foes of the Constitution are as necessary to its vitality and strength as are its protectors and allies. The devil must be given his due…yet must never be victorious. This is what gives meaning to Democracy, to liberty, to life itself. Our problem is to recognize the forces of negativity-for the devil has power to assume a pleasing form and an angel can seem wretched if seeing is confused with vision. The Constitution’s greatest gift is its imitation of nature. That is: as an arena in which the strugggle for perfection is an eternal, moment to moment battle of light vs. darkness; life vs. death; love vs. hatred and indifference; liberty vs. oppression. It has allowed for the drama of existence to attain its fullest expression because, whether foe or ally-we have all been enabled to become willing and glad participants.
Posted by Dom on Apr 19, 2003 at 3:56 AM FASCISM IS IN THE AIR, BETTER CUT YOUR HAIR; SHAVE YOUR BEARD- DON’T WANNA LOOK WEIRD NO MORE. WEAR WHITE UNDERWEAR, SIT STIFFLY IN YOUR CHAIR. FASCISM IS IN THE NEWS, BETTER NARROW DOWN YOUR VIEWS; STIFLE YOUR ENLIGHTENMENT- GET A JOB IN GOVERNMENT, DON’T HANG OUT WITH BLACKS OR JEWS, DON’T PAY NO COMMIE DUES! CHORUS: RAUS, JUDEN, RAUS, SWINEHUND- CLONE OF ADOLPH WE HAVE FOUND, THE REICH IS NO MORE UNDERGROUND, AND WORLD IS ARMAGEDDON-BOUND. FASCISM FILLS THE TIMES, GORILLA PORTRAITS ON YOUR DIMES; WEAR YOUR SWASTIKA PROUD- HANG OUT WITH THE, “LEATHER CROWD”. BETTER MILITARIZE YOUR CRIMES, PREPARE FOR GOOSE-STEP PANTOMIMES! FASCISM HAS CLOSED YOUR HEART, WORLD IS PRIMED TO BLOW APART- NO MORE TIME OR SPACE TO HIDE YOUR SOUL OR FIX YOUR FACE. BETTER BURN ALL TRUTH IN ART; OUR TIME IS THE FINAL START. ADOLPH, BENITO, GENERALISSIMO TOO, CAESAR, TRICKY DICK, BUSH ONE AND TWO WE RAISE A BLOODY TOAST TO YOU- AND LUCIFER ETERNALLY…AND LUCIFER ETERNALLY.
Posted by Dom on Apr 19, 2003 at 4:07 AM LIVING A LIFE ONCE REMOVED-LOVELESS, WITHOUT FEELINGS, NUMBED AND ANTISEPTIC, NUMBERED AND PROGRAMMED…“IF YOU DO NOT FIT, YOU WILL BE MADE TO FIT. IF YOU ARE NOT SMILING, YOU WILL BE CHANGED”. LIFE ONCE REMOVED, LIFE ONCE REMOVED. PASSION IS A RELATIVE WHO NEVER CALLS. RAPTURE IS THE STEPSON OF A CAPSULE, ONCE REMOVED, ONCE REMOVED, LIFE IS DEATH ONCE REMOVED. LIVING A LIFE ONCE REMOVED-PAINLESS, WITHOUT CONSCIENCE, WELL-FED AND WELL-ADJUSTED, WEIGHED AND CATALOGUED-“IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND, YOU WILL BE CLEANSED. IF YOU DO UNDERSTAND, YOU WILL BE RE-PROGRAMMED”. LIFE ONCE REMOVED, LIFE ONCE REMOVED-ROMANCE IS A WORD THAT WAS A DREAM, LOVE’S THE SCORE OF VIDEO TENNIS. ONCE REMOVED, ONCE REMOVED, LIFE IS DEATH ONCE REMOVED. ONCE REMOVED, ONCE REMOVED-LIFE IS DEATH…ONCE REMOVED.
Posted by Dom on Apr 19, 2003 at 4:15 AM And finally…Do not go beyond slumber Dreams of nuclear holocaust-Nightmares’ most dreaded terrors realized. These begin to increasingly occupy my sleep’s time. Somnolent heavens have given way to heavenles, devestated, festering vistas. As bird-like, my dreaming self reconnoiters the dream Earth searching in a burning, hellish scence for a living thing. Nothing but desolation upon destruction! Terracide! All is burnt to a crisp! All is gone! It is my spirit in anguish which surveys this dream Earth. I see myself lying poisoned in a once magnificent valley strewn among a manglement of friends, neighbors, and debris. There is only a howling, foul wind and a thundering orange sky. As I swoop lower, the atmosphere becomes a lethal gas chamber. Nothing can be done…The time for potentialities is gone. A disembodied voice informs: “The souls of Terran Life are heretofore forbidden to incarnate!” We have been so ordered, it seems. So be it! In the dream we have not only destroyed our bodies, we have also incarcerated our souls. Never again to walk the sweet fields and drink of the summer’s bounteous offerings. Never again to taste love’s sweet agonies. Never again to feel the burning thrust of blood course through the body. Never again to hope for Angelhood. God within me, I pray, let this dream not fill my sleep. But more than this…Let not this nightmare go beyond slumber
Posted by Dom on Apr 19, 2003 at 4:29 AM I find it difficult to believe that country like USA is twisting the minds of citizens like depicted in “Bowling for Columbine”. But then again, when Slovenia decided with great majority that it would live Yugoslavia, American administration was strongly against it. Slovenia just wanted to be independent and democratic country, and America denied us our right to do so. Germany didn’t… I think that comparing Mr. Bush and Hitler is really obscene - in 1933 Hitler was democratically elected, while Bush was not. So much for democracy…
Posted by Klemen on Apr 19, 2003 at 10:26 AM An addition to my comment. I made a mistake - Slovenia tried to LEAVE Yugoslavia. As for wars led by America - it is easy to wage a war when your own people (civilians) don’t die in it. As for soldiers - they chose their profession for various reasons, I guess mostly economic. Even if it is their job they should defend their country rather that attacking other countries and die there. I followed a link on this site where author claims that “Bowling” is a fabrication. Maybe it is, but I rather watch a fabrication promoting peace than a fabrication promoting war.
I now venture into dangerous grounds - Americans were shocked and angry and sad and confused when twin towers were demolished and 3,000 or more people died. What do you think people of the world who suffered for American interest and profit felt like? In most of the counties where America intervened democracy is fiction rather than reality, so the only “profit” made was by American war hawks and weapons manufacturers. Just one more thing - Americans pay less than half for gasoline than we do in Europe. If America would have prices on our level, a liter (about a quarter of a gallon) would cost 1 dollar. Think what would happen in America. Just a little food for thought…
Posted by Klemen on Apr 19, 2003 at 11:21 AM To Loving america,
Eventhough France seems to be the leader of the anti war movement the only reason why they didn’t do it because of their own interests. First they are pissed off because the gulf between them and the US interms of military might have become too much. And second, there were some contracts with iraq that were being endangered. And third (I admire them for that, because it was not done in the US), lots of french people were antiwar and as a democractic nation they have to address that. Lastly, there are more than 5 million muslims in france, so they can’t risk creating a problem with the muslim community. Frances terrorist actions in other countries (specially north and west africa) are no less than what america has done in latin america and asia. So what you are seeing is two mafia dons fighting for the supreme chair. So if Bush says something and Chirac says no, it doesn’t make it wrong and also if he says yes it doesn’t make it right, and the other way round. So why does france says “sanctions get lifted through the UN bla bla” because they went to make sure US and UK will not get everything that is up for grabs in Iraq.
And about iraq’s reconstruction, I was watching BBC today and they mentioned that the main reason Bush raised the lifting of sanctions is so that iraq will be able to pay for the rebuilding process.Sure there will be some aid gathered but that may not be able even just to make the water and electrictiy run alright. Just imagine how much damage could be done with 20billion dollar worth of weapons? No aid is gonna to cover that.
Posted by oumer on Apr 19, 2003 at 12:13 PM Dave Koster from America >>>if you want to protest anything do it with a pencil in the voting booth ..in the meantime we real Americans stand behind America. look in the eyes of most iraqis and tell them what a dumb ass idea it was to liberate them.>>>
What if they donít have eyes?
Posted by linda z on Apr 19, 2003 at 12:37 PM Linda,
You should mention that the readers should be careful with what they are going to see, because personally, I have seen nothing more horrible.And if anyone is doubting the veracity of the article and the pictures which Linda posted, please read the book by john pilger under the title “New leaders of the world”
Posted by oumer on Apr 19, 2003 at 12:55 PM Don’t you think that a real “Erin Brockovich” is what is needed in this case? To expose the people at the top of the ladder who don’t have an iota of humanity and kill in millions to satisfy the interests of the few? Is it theoretically impossible to untagle their web of attrocity just like julia roberts does it in Erin Brockovich? I mean, there are hundrends of Iraqi doctors who can testify, respected journalists like John pilger have written about it, and I am sure that thousands are out there who are ready to help. Can’t one make a case out of this? Isn’t it a shame that in a country where a burglar sues the owner of a house for hitting him, how come one lawyer, one civil right activist, one “man of the moment” failed to sue the american government for deforming thousands of children??
Posted by oumer on Apr 19, 2003 at 2:39 PM linda z you fucking whore! did you show those pics to your kids as well?
Not everyone is as sadistic and fucked up like you
a real piece of shit you are!
Posted by sid on Apr 19, 2003 at 2:45 PM >>>Sid from?: linda z you fucking whore! did you show those pics to your kids as well?
Not everyone is as sadistic and fucked up like you. A real piece of shit you are!>>>What if the photo of the deformed infant with severe deformity of the arms born to a US Gulf War veteran was mine?
Itís not, but think about it. Try for one moment to put yourself in the shoes of the women who give birth to these infants deformed by depleted uranium - needless and unnecessary tragedies.
In addition, forgive me Oumer, but the article preceding the photographs clearly says and I quote: ìI have heard stories of visitors to Iraq who spoke with mid-wives there. These mid-wives are purported to have said they no longer look forward to births as…. “We don’t know what’s going to come out.”
The pictures below, which are extremely disturbing, show exactly what does.î
Also, Sid from ?, #1) Iím not a sex worker, so addressing me as a whore is inaccurate. #2) Yes, just like the images of human beings stacked like cordwood at concentration camps from the holocaust, I did show these pictures to my kid. How else would she know why war and the use of violence to settle conflicts are inhuman? #3) Iím not sadistic and in my humble opinion not ìfucked upî either. #4) Nor am I a piece of excrement, so addressing me as a ìpiece of shitî is also inaccurate.
If you are disturbed by these images and I hope you are, then demand that your government end the manufacture and deployment of this type of ammunition. The Bush Administration and the U.S. military is guilty of genocide for using these weapons of mass destruction with no regard for human life. I guess I wonít be voting for Bush in the next election.
Posted by linda z on Apr 19, 2003 at 3:48 PM Oumer
I want to get back to you. You seem to really have some great points to make & I appreciate that you haven’t stooped to the usual name calling, etc., I have seen on this forum from both sides of the issue.
Unfortunately it is Easter weekend & a little busy around here. I hope to be on later tonight & will try to catch you then.And to Linda Z.
I think Sid got a little carried away but you should take responsibility & warn people when you know the “shock” may be too much for some. Obviously, you were trying to make a point but you don’t know who may access the link & how it will affect them.
Posted by Loving America on Apr 19, 2003 at 9:06 PM Benson, the friendly Viet Nam Vet from New Hampshire should learn how to write. Most surviving Iraquies write better English than he does. He is a real “Stupid White Man”. He doesn’t even know that he wasted his time in Viet Nam fighting for another Stupid White Man, Tricky Dick.
Posted by Orsis Rutherford on Apr 20, 2003 at 10:20 AM Propaganda for dummies:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/03/04/cartoons/cartoon3.html
http://uk.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=63011&group=webcast
Posted by oumer on Apr 20, 2003 at 11:58 AM I ve got shocked !!!
Please check such a Media manupulation!!
We must know true stories
We don’t need fictitious
We must live in nonfiction !!!> http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm
Thanks a lot !!! Michael Moore!!
Posted by Junko.M on Apr 20, 2003 at 2:27 PM Junko M
Pardon me but I had a look at the pics & that is not what we saw either when the statue was toppled.
The footage the BBC ran was at a different angle & while the square wasn’t packed there were several hundred Iraqi’s celebrating.
Perhaps the pics you posted were taken before the fun started.
Not that it makes any difference.
We have all been sucked in by this media bonanza & even the so called watch dog orgs. are bought & paid for.
Posted by Non biased on Apr 20, 2003 at 3:14 PM Check out the views of a liberal girl-lickin’ rocker on the war in Iraq.
Page down a ways for his essay.
Play
Posted by Play Jurist on Apr 20, 2003 at 8:02 PM His Holiness Rael of the Raelian Movement supports Michael Moore. Those of you who also support him and are seekers of truth then continue on with your quest to enlightenment by following the link below.
Posted by Joey Knight on Apr 20, 2003 at 8:34 PM Right on Gene Simmons!!!!!
Baby you sum everything up nicely!!!!Thank you Play Jurist for the link!
Posted by Rocking in the USA on Apr 20, 2003 at 10:29 PM I DARE anyone to say the Iraqi’s were better off before, under Hussein.
And, after the war dies down, and people here in America go back to normalcy, there will be people who say that they are “non-violent.” You don’t want to get into fights. But, what that really means is, you don’t want to pick on anybody.
Problem is, the bad guys don’t always agree with you. You see, if you’re against violence and some guy holds a gun to your head and asks you for your money, you better re-think your position. You better become VERY VIOLENT at that moment. Or, you’re dead.
Being a Pacifist, is an ideal. I subscribe to it. I’m against violence. But, only CONCEPTUALLY, if you threaten my children, I wouldn’t think twice about snapping your neck on the spot. I suspect most people would take my view.
You can tell by the length of this missive, that this issue has gotten under my skin. So, I’ll try to recap my feelings, in brief. Get ready, ‘cause here comes the truth:
America is the world’s only hope for a bright future.
Yes. I mean that. Yes, I know you live in another country and your country is cool, too. But, America is the only Superpower. There are no others. And that means, the world is a better place. Because if Nazi Germany or Communist Russia were the only superpowers, we would all be either dead or forced to live under their regimes.
America is not interested in ruling your country. If you think it does, smoking crack may be your answer.
I wasn’t born here. But, I have a love for this country and its people that knows no bounds. I will forever be grateful to America for going into World War II, when it had nothing to gain, in a country that was far away…and rescued my Mother from the Nazi German Concentration Camps.
She is alive and I am alive because of America.
And, if you have a problem with America, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ME.
Posted by Gene Simmons on Apr 21, 2003 at 4:26 AM Junko M
Pardon me but ,,,,,,,,,,
Posted by: Non biased on 4.20.03 | 10:14 am from >
———————————& —————————
Hi !! Thank u for your response.
Unfortunatery, I cant believe the pics were taken before the statue was toppled.
Some of my friends watched & recognized by TV (which is not pics).
The scene said “there was so many U.S. , Press, and a small handful of Iraqis civilian”
They have known “Media manupulation"already.
(Just only me have got shocked this “Media manupulation” several days ago)And all so, When I knew this “Media manupulation”
I just said “It was fiction as I had suspected"to my friends.
It was so dramatic, but for me It was so doubtful.
How can Iraqis change there style so quickly after only 2-3weeks??
For Iraqis, After a reign of terror,
they ve got over 10000 of missiles over thire head one sidedly from America.
after the horrendous ,
They faced that their city was thrown into great
disorder by plunder, arson, rape, any kind of riot.
It so nuisance for innocent civilian.I know the Bush Administration gave all over the world
some abusive language can seems never concern Iraqis.
I know they killed some civillian who insist
“No Fussein, No Americanv Iraq for the Irapis” in the parade.
This is what a democracy looks like…Thank you very much for reading.
Love Michael Moore!!
Posted by Junko.M on Apr 21, 2003 at 6:10 AM Status report, Spock. Have you been monitoring the communications in this area?
Yes, Captain, the life forms in this sector of cyberspace are not logical. They believe a being called Michael Moore speaks the truth when only a cursory examination of his transmissions reveal him to have manipulated time, events and the very fabric of reality in a grotesque way.
They refuse to believe he was booed by his peers at an event called the Oscars when he dared to say out-loud what they all were thinking, but could not openly embrace for fear of angering their ticket-buying masters.
They refuse to believe their own eyes when shown a variety of visual sub-space communications all confirming that a group of oppressed people were indeed glad to be free of an evil dictator, even though thereafter they behaved somewhat badly.
Dammit Spock. I’m not interested in all that. Have you detected any female of any species in distress and in need of immediate intervention?
Jim. Does the phrase “prime directive” mean anything to ya?
Posted by Play Jurist on Apr 21, 2003 at 6:32 AM I’m glad to recognize the support for michael moore. it seems that his critisism on the governement works.hey, he had the world’s attention on the academy awards!!
bush is an alcoholic, who belongs in front of the tv watching wild western movies. thank you michael moore.
Posted by kathrin on Apr 21, 2003 at 10:25 AM Darn it! I`m not into T.V but what I wouldn`t give to have witnessed MM denouncing that tyrant Bush at the Oscars. Up here we call Bush,The Shrub or The Anti Christ!!
Posted by laurianne mac millan on Apr 21, 2003 at 10:33 AM >I DARE anyone to say the Iraqi’s were better off before, under Hussein.
Hussen stayed in power because of the support of the americans before the 90s (the american government was scared as hell when the pupet government they set up in Iran, under the shah was overthrown by islamists and they were afraid this will propagate to other middle east countries, disturbing the control they have in the region) and even just after the gulf war, the american helicopters were hovering over the air when he destroyed the opposition, and they didn’t do a thing! If you want to know about this, read/watch chomsky’s “power and terror” and john pilger’s “new leaders of the world”. SO if you plant two bombs in my house and come years later and diffuse the one that han’t blown yet, I will not thank you. That is even if the american government was 100% honest at this time and they were there just to liberate the people. But what they are doing now is establishing military bases, and trying to find some pupet who fits their string.
>You see, if you’re against violence and some guy holds a gun to your head and asks you for your money, you better re-think your position. You better become VERY VIOLENT at that moment. Or, you’re dead.I don’t see the violence of a ten year old kid or a seventy year old man. Those are the kind of people the american bombs killed. And if you haven’t been listening the news, there was not even one iraqi from the 9/11 attackers. Most of them were saudis. But saudi is americas mistress, you have your bases there and they will do almost whatever you want them to do. So no one mentions saudi arabia, where every friday people are amputated and executed in public just because they commited adultery or stole something. Yeah, this is completley ignored, cause after all what you care about is your interests. Did america care when sadam used chemical weapons that you supplied him on the kurds in the late 80s, no! but years later you mention it as if it is a new discovery! Inshort, Iraqis didn’t put a gun on you, they didn’t threaten you. It was funny to hear bush on his “speech” after bagdad fall something like “Just a month before Iraq had huge arsenal of weapons” but yet, you managed to destroy and capture the city without that much of a problem. So that is what you expect from a guy who is equipped hugely to threaten you from thousand miles?
Posted by oumer on Apr 21, 2003 at 11:34 AM >Being a Pacifist, is an ideal. I subscribe to it. I’m against violence. But, only CONCEPTUALLY, if you threaten my children, I wouldn’t think twice about >snapping your neck on the spot. I suspect most people would take my view.
That is why the iraqis are protesting “go out of our country” cause not only you thretened their children, you maimed them, you killed them. And even left tons of depleted uranium on their land and some of them can’t even have normal children.
>America is the world’s only hope for a bright future.
I agree with that. If only your governement was sane, if only your leaders were reasonable enough to regard every human life as equal, if only your leaders were elected by you, if only your leaders know listen to what their people think about, if only they will let people to express their views in major media channels so that people get the whole truth, if only you could separate your parties from the big corporations, if only .....>Yes. I mean that. Yes, I know you live in another country and your country is cool, too.
Thanks for that>But, America is the only Superpower.
yeah, interms of military power, right. But look at the life standard inequality in the US, the people living in poverty for such a rich nation, one estimate is around 20 percent in the US are poor, while less than a thousand people at the top of the food chain in the US earn more than the whole developing world.
>Because if Nazi Germany or Communist Russia were the only superpowers, we would all be either dead or forced to live under their regimes.
What a silly logic. What you are saying is like “we are better than nazis because they killed millions in a decade but we killed only hundrends of thousands”.>America is not interested in ruling your country. If you think it does, smoking crack may be your answer.
SUre america is not interested in ruling their country, but in controlling it so that the american intersest is fulfilled no matter how it takes. Ruling, as you know, takes time and resources and people around the world will notice it. But if you put a puppet of your own as a leader, then you always get what you wanted without having the responsibility of “taking care” of the people.
Posted by oumer on Apr 21, 2003 at 11:35 AM >But, I have a love for this country and its people that knows no bounds.
I have never been to america, but the few I met so far are great, no problema with the people!!>I will forever be grateful to America for going into World War II, when it had nothing to gain, in a country that was far away…
America resisted to enter the second world war for a long time until it was attacked pearl harbour incident. The pearl harbour attack was on 7th of December 1941, america joined the war later the same month. If it was not for that, it wouldn’t have joined. So it had everything to gain, America was attacked directly by another country. Though they contributed a lot to the deafeat of the nazis, don’t forget the hiroshima bombing is the only one in history where a real WMD was used, and one of the saddest thing that happend in human history!>and rescued my Mother from the Nazi German Concentration Camps.
The nazis were defeated with the couragous effort of millions of people from Russia, Europe, America and other parts of the world. Please try to read some history books.>She is alive and I am alive because of America.
I am glad for both of you!!>And, if you have a problem with America, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ME.
The above saying is what one call “moronish” patriotism. Most of the people who are anti war have nothing against america (the land) or the americans (the people), they only disagree with the forign policy that your government is adhering to. So don’t just twist the perspective of the problem by making it “americans” vs “anti-americans”, just like bush did “either you are with us or against us”.
Posted by oumer on Apr 21, 2003 at 11:42 AM Gene -
The reason I don’t buy greeting cards for people is that they never express what I REALLY want to say.However, if your recent statements about Iraq, The UN, Russia, France and the protesters were to adorn a greeting card - I will finally find good reason to purchase.
I will proudly hold up your balls for those in line who are ready to suck ‘em.
I just hope that the people in line do not exhaust themselves - ‘cause they are going to have to line up to suck mine next. They probably will have the energy - because these people SUCK all the time.
These protesters are the same ones that will spout “Look at that looting going on.. see.. I told you, this wasn’t going to be a good thing” as they flip through 30 more cable news channels on their flat screen, wall-mounted televisions. These same morons wouldn’t know what the fuck to do with themselves if Hitler/Stalin/Hussein ruled over them and all they got for news was a cardboard box….
Hats off to the liberation of Iraq! Dictators take notice! Preventive measures for tyranny and destruction are coming to a bunker near you!!
AMEN
Posted by Rus on Apr 21, 2003 at 4:00 PM Some nice interesting articles can be found here, from few journalists and writers, who still have the dignity to write honestly, whose pen (keyboard?:-) is like an arrow directed towards the bull’s eye of “the truth”. Enjoy!
Posted by oumer on Apr 21, 2003 at 5:18 PM I was just wondering if anybody knows what happend to the anthrax thing.? Latest relevant articles I could find were
Fort Detrick’s Tower of Doom To Come Down
Stories of Anthrax Production Survive as Feared Building Nears Its End
David Snyder Washington Post Staff Writer
February 9, 2003;Hunt for Clues in Anthrax Case Revived
FBI Agents Return to Frederick Forest in Search Reportedly Linked to ScientistAllan Lengel Washington Post Staff Writer
January 25, 2003;So will the story just disappear?
What about the investigations that were supposed to be carried out about the government being aware of sep 11 attacks, but was not responsible enough? remember?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node;=&con; tentId=A30219-2002May16¬Found=true
(the article is almost a year old, may 17 2002, under the title “Bush aides seek to contain furor”So a month or two back the US government said that iraq has WMDs and let’s go to war and destroy the weapons. now the war is almost over and now the talk is shifiting to “humanitarian aid, democarcy for iraqi blabla” and will it be forgotten after some months also?
I wonder, maybe we need some memory chips to be installed in our brains that fires up in a month or two so that we will be able to ask things like “what happend to chandra levy’s case?”, “what is the story about the anthrax?”, “so why the white house didn’t act on warnings about bin laden’s attacks”, “so where are the weapons of mass destruction?”, .......
Posted by oumer on Apr 21, 2003 at 5:48 PM I thought the Iraqi Information Minister was bad until I heard about Michael Moore. “Busssh is a villian…yess, yess. He is far from reality, unlike me. I am a common man speaking against the Infidels.”
Posted by Larry Kemp on Apr 21, 2003 at 8:31 PM As a foreigner to your country, i personally find it amazing that a country which for years has been thought of by us as a free and democratic one should stand by idly and allow a dictator like Bush to seize control. I only hope we can Learn from M Moore and rise up and speak before it’s too late before what our current governments are doing begins to hurt our children, at least for us in the uk on may the 1st we will hopefully be free of our so called leader who chose to ignore his country! Michael Moore i salute you!!!
Posted by Kat on Apr 21, 2003 at 9:35 PM Someone claiming to be Gene Simmons:>>>I wasn’t born here. But, I have a love for this country and its people that knows no bounds. I will forever be grateful to America for going into World War II, when it had nothing to gain, in a country that was far away…and rescued my Mother from the Nazi German Concentration Camps.
She is alive and I am alive because of America.>>
That’s great. American Rock ‘n Roll wouldn’t be quite the same without Kiss! However, perhaps Mr. Simmons should be informed of Dubyaís familyís ties to the rise of the Nazi party.
G.W.‘s grandfather and great-grandfather, Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker, were among the chief American fundraisers for Germany’s Nazi Party. Through industrialist Fritz Thyssen, the Bush-run Union Banking Company and W. A. Harriman & Company, the Bushes sold over $50 million in German bonds to American investors, starting in 1924. Thyssen in turn pumped money into the infant Nazi Party, which had proved its desire to rule and its willingness to use brute force in 1923’s Munich Beer Hall Putsch.George Walker, GW’s great-grandfather, also set up the takeover of the Hamburg-America Line, a cover for I.G. Farben’s Nazi espionage unit in the United States. In Germany, I.G. Farben was most famous for putting the gas in gas chambers; it was the producer of Zyklon B and other gasses used on victims of the Holocaust. The Bush family was not unaware of the nature of their investment partners. They hired Allen Dulles, the future head of the CIA, to hide the funds they were making from Nazi investments and the funds they were sending to Nazi Germany, rather than divest. It was only in 1942, when the government seized Union Banking Company assets under the Trading With The Enemy Act, that George Walker and Prescott Bush stopped pumping money into Hitler’s regime.
(continued)
Posted by linda z on Apr 22, 2003 at 2:47 AM (continued)
George Bush, then an eighteen year-old man, held off entering Yale (a long-time Bush family destination, Prescott had graduated in 1917) to enter the military, perhaps to remove some of the tarnish from his family’s honor. After the war, however, Bush joined the intelligence community and utilized his own connections to help fund drug runners from Laos to Panama. Most shocking was the so-called “cocaine coup” in Bolivia in June 1980, masterminded by fugitive Nazi Klaus Barbie, “The Butcher Of Lyons.” Bush, as director of the CIA, had funneled enormous amounts of cash to drug runners including Manuel Noriega and helped in the destabilization of Argentina. Barbie, who had been previously secreted in Latin America by the CIA, began working closely with the Argentines and used drug money to finance a neo-Nazi cabal, one that succeeded in overthrowing the government.
Posted by linda z on Apr 22, 2003 at 2:47 AM Linda Z,
I think this kind of stuff is beneath you. All this nonsense about Bush/Nazis, staged statue toppling ceremonies in Baghdad etc. is National Enquirer/Star material and is on par with “aliens from space impregnated my dog” headlines.
You presented some good information on Sudan which I earlier acknowledged and apologized to you about. But this is pure garbage.
I could link you to all kinds of websites making claims about Clinton being guilty of dozens of murders in Arkansas. I’m sure you’d quickly discount them as I do. Why do you want to reflexively believe the wildest claims about GWB and his family. I’m guessing you believe he was a coke fiend. As much as the media wanted it to be true, there was simply no credible proof. If there was, it would have been presented, believe me. Remember the orgasms about his DUI just before the election? Do you really believe stuff like cocaine and nazi connections would have been somehow ignored if there was any credible proof?
Now even though Gennifer Flowers described in detail Clinton’s cocaine use on air and in a very credible manner, and his own brother said he had a nose like a vacuum, I will not link you to these interviews.
Even though A woman very credibly and painfully described in detail on camera in a lengthy interview with NBC’s Lisa Meyers how she’d been brutally raped by Bill Clinton and the interview was shown once on MSNBC and then shelved by NBC, I will not link you to the transcript.
Even though Al Gore’s extensive marijuana use after Vietnam was verified by his roommate, I will reserve judgment until I see him with my own eyes in 7-ll all red-eyed and buying donuts, jerky, rolling papers and Visine and will not link you to the interview.
I will link you to this however:
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html
Mynah Byrd
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Apr 22, 2003 at 7:26 AM Linda Z
Before Gene was a rock star he was a history teacher.
Why don’t you hop on over to his site & let us all watch him bitch slap you!!!!
Posted by kandra on Apr 22, 2003 at 3:14 PM may be not onlyt gore but every proud patriot shoul smoke some ganja instead than going out to kill people, also because the real hallucination (marijuana free) is the weapon of mass destruction, they must have took a lot of LSD before goingthere and then the effect passed and the smoking guns disappeared….
Posted by fabio on Apr 22, 2003 at 3:32 PM dear OS
I did not mean to complain about having a car, it was an example, I mean that people should care less for money and more for social and civil upgrades
as long as we keep on looking in our little garden (another example) we’ll keep being egoistic and close minded
I care for my health assistance as much as I care for my colleagues assistance, and I would’nt keep it for me if I’d be offered to, unless I’d be sure that everybody would get it, you know what I mean? instead of havigng a rise in my salary, I’d rather see everybody who has a smaller one reach mine, then I’d ask for a supplement. I’d like to see less rich people and much much less homless people, I’d like to see everybody’s right respected, not just the rich and lucky ones, do you get my point?
Posted by fabio on Apr 22, 2003 at 3:40 PM Linda,
The story you posted also looked very bogus to me. Some people really complicate life by creating “conspiracy” out of everything, like “Micheal Jackson is the antichirst”, “Kennedy is still alive” blah blah. So don’t be taken by them.
They are as bad the corporate medias as long as they are preaching lies.
Posted by oumer on Apr 22, 2003 at 4:08 PM continued ...
You just read bbc, cnn, and the rest, and if you remember not to forget (that is what most people do these days, don’t know why), you will get some juicy stuff. For example I read this story today at bbcUS troops kill Baghdad lions
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2966107.stm
Apr 22Then I rememberd I read something about the animals being fed two days ago. So I searched bbc and found out:
Baghdad zoo animals get fed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2962431.stm
Apr 20You see, just remember what you read from their sites, use a simple logic like “An animal that is fed can’t be hungry” and you will get them easily.
Posted by oumer on Apr 22, 2003 at 4:16 PM Funny,
Some freind reminded of yet another lion story from afghanistan war
Posted by oumer on Apr 22, 2003 at 4:31 PM Mr. Moore, hold your head high and be proud of yourself. In a contry and in a time where it has become nearly treasonist to speak-out against your own elected representatives, you have chosen the high road. First, I saw your movie “Bowling For Columbine”, second I read your books. Great work. I am a white business owner and know many other white business owners that dissagree with Mr. Bush and may of his policies. Many actions that your government takes are very dangerous, destructive and desabalizing for the rest of the world. Right now it is oil on the menu. What happens when the U.S.A. runs out of drinking water and wants to plug a pipe line into the great lakes. Will Canada become the next targeted terorist nation if it doesn’t lay down and take like a nice “Little Brother”. Violence will never be the way, I am afraid of the American government as is the rest of the world. Who will be next ?!
Posted by Tim R. on Apr 22, 2003 at 8:20 PM All this talk about the Iraqi’s protesting US presence. Don’t you get it??? Two months ago if an Iraqi had dared to protest anything they would have been executed!
Let them protest!! Let them march!!Let them feel what it’s like to be able to voice their opinion without fearing for their life!
Why don’t we ask the Iraqi’s if they think they were better off with Saddam.
Rock on USA!!!!
Posted by kandra on Apr 23, 2003 at 12:22 AM dear kandra, the right to protest without the right to obtain something is like pornography compared to real sex
Posted by fabio on Apr 23, 2003 at 7:31 AM therefore instead than rocking on, please rock out of Iraq
Posted by fabio on Apr 23, 2003 at 7:32 AM Kandra, your logic is completely flawed. I will give you an example. Let us say a man comes to your house with a gun and he tells you that he is gonna kill you, your spouse, and your children in the next three days. And sometime later, another person comes to your house, kills the first one (or the first one escapes, or something like that) and tells you that he is gonna kill only your spouse and children, not you. So will you consider this new guy as a saviour or a liberator, even though he is sparing you? And your question “Why don’t we ask the Iraqi’s if they think they were better off with Saddam?” is the same as asking you in the above situation “aren’t you better off with the second guy than the first one cause at least you save your ass?” and the answer to your question is “Iraq’s are better off without sadam and without the US”.
Posted by oumer on Apr 23, 2003 at 8:25 AM Some “liberation” news ..
Children held at Camp Xray, US admits
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s836988.htm
Posted by oumer on Apr 23, 2003 at 8:33 AM Just started reading “Stupid White Men” and the chapter on the Florida election is a HUGE eyeopener.
You got so screwed over in Florida that I can’t believe it. Why not just declare USA a Monarchy or an Oligharchy, where the people with the least moral and the most money win by default.
Hate Michael Moore. Disagree with him all you want. Thrash his clothing. Badmouth his films and books, but remember this:
The information about the Purge of The Black Voters in Florida came from MM and not your piss scared, right wing media. They haven’t even comented on the case or tried to disprove MM’s claims.
He IS speaking his mind and the longer you ignore him, the more those greedy fucks, including the Shrub, will screw over every possible right you have.
That the Democrats merely bent over and took it in the Ass doesn’t diminish the outright theft of the precidency in any way.
He’ll win his next term, fair and square, unlike the first time, but that stain on him will never wash away.
Stupid White Men indeed.
Martin Hansen
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 23, 2003 at 11:18 AM Oumer
The war is over, the Iraqi’s are free!
The US has no intentions of hanging around any longer than neccesary! Before you screamwe’re in there for good let’s just wait & see… All the wars we have fought in the last 100 years & NOT ONCE did we try to occupy any country we were saving! Just ask the French or the Germans.
They may be able to get this question right!
Posted by Loving America on Apr 23, 2003 at 1:35 PM Martin
I think everyone agrees what happened in Fla. should never happen again however the electoral college did work in this case. I, like most, prefer the one vote, one person theory that MM preaches. Perhaps MM should try lobbying to CHANGE the system rather than whine & cry like a STUPID WHITE MAN when the system doesn’t work for him!
Posted by Loving America on Apr 23, 2003 at 1:46 PM But it’s also opening my eyes to what a complete slimeball Bill (Slick Willy) Clinton was. I’ll make an analogy to 2 carsalesmen:
Carsalesman Bush:
A lovely car this. I’ll make you an offer. You get this car for free, 10 minutes varanty and after that I’ll try to rip you of for cash anyhow.
Carsalesman Clinton:
You looks like a family man. I’ll make you a deal. 8 year warranty, free registration and a kiddie seat.
Half an hour later you’re home: Your dog is wrapped in Duct Tape and has been sodomized, your daughter has been forced to sell herself down on the mean streets, your baby boy has been sold off for his Organs and carsalesman Clinton is banging your wife as you return home.
You demand to know what the HELL is going on and slick Willy looks at you and says: “Ohhhh yeah..I forgot to mention a few things”.
With Bush you knew you were getting a right wing bastard, but with Clinton you’re getting a dog turd in sugar frosting.
Martin Hansen.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 23, 2003 at 3:12 PM to loving america
you should be more aware of the influences USA had in europe after freeing it
they have frozen the democracy by supporting only certain political parties, in italy it was the “democrazia cristiana” which was flooded with millions dollars, also some organizations of right wing extremists and terrorists were sponsored by CIA and put bombs in the public squares and trains to charge it to the communists
we had a suspension of the democracy until the cold war was over (40 years man isn’t it way more than necessary?) and that was to safeguard american interests
more than once the italian communist party had the chance to win the election but it was highly boycotted by the USA, ther was even a secret army called “gladio” armed by USA encharged to start a civil war in case of the victory of any left wing party
is this helping to restore democracy? we had hundreds of death thanks to CIA boms on our trains
before talking go and study a bit of history at least the last 100 years which you are talking about
Posted by fabio on Apr 23, 2003 at 3:32 PM Michel Moores movies are as much as a documentary as Francis the talking Mule was a documentary!
Posted by Patriot on Apr 23, 2003 at 3:36 PM So are you saying that your government let the US decide their politics for them?
Posted by Loving America on Apr 23, 2003 at 4:02 PM that’s what happened, because the governors where always paid by the USA and of course they were doing what the various USA president wanted them to
have you got an hoistory book at home by the way?
Posted by fabio on Apr 23, 2003 at 4:16 PM Don’t be an ass.
I am just trying to understand why you are blaming the US rather than holding your OWN government responsible for choices THEY made!
Posted by Loving America on Apr 23, 2003 at 4:24 PM USA foreign policy has always been based on corruption, and unfortunately the 99% of men on earth are corruptible
Posted by fabio on Apr 23, 2003 at 4:32 PM Politics is big business. Always has been. Decisions are made based on need & greed but no one country should be held responsible for all the evil in the world which seems to be the case.
It always takes (at least) two to tango.
Posted by Loving America on Apr 23, 2003 at 4:38 PM it’s no choice: get your check and do what I order
and if something goes wrong the war is ready to settle downthings, it’s always like that, where you cannot corrupt you make a war, ALWAYS
Posted by fabio on Apr 23, 2003 at 4:49 PM oumer,
The Shiites who are demanding the U.S. leave are not necessarily doing it because they have suffered losses in their family due to U.S. bombing. That may be true for some, but I think it has much more to do with the fact that they are being cheer-led by outsiders that have a lot to gain by establishing a radical Islamic state in Iraq and they don’t want the U.S. around to water it down.
Seems like they would prefer a little watering down to simply being killed by the Baath party. Seems like they would realize that if the U.S. just up and left, the Baathists could conceivably re-emerge and rain on their parade….not with water but bullets.
This may become a real problem for the U.S. (I know, you’re hoping so)
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/ledeen/ledeen042203.asp
I hope some clear thinking Iraqi Shiite leaders can get through to the masses what Kandra was saying, that hey, If we’d tried to dance this jig about six weeks ago, we would have been given our choice of acid bath or plastic shredder.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say with the zoo links… The stories don’t tell us when the animals might have escaped and how long they may have been loose. They also don’t say when the animals were fed, only that food was delivered. You seem to be able to draw some firm conclusions there, but I can’t from the information given. Perhaps I’m missing something.
From the children at camp xray story I guess you’re assuming what? That there’s a bunch of pre-schoolers in shackles? More likely they are teen-agers that took up arms against U.S. soldiers. That gets you a free flight to Cuba all expenses paid, even if you don’t happen to be over 21.
Mynah Byrd
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Apr 23, 2003 at 4:55 PM Martin Hansen finally got something right about America.
Bill Clinton IS a slimeball!
Mynah
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Apr 23, 2003 at 5:00 PM Italian’s govrnments have always been mixed with underground politics (like reported earlier) and with Mafia as well therefore you see there’s little room for the real people to inteerven in an efficient way to stop all this
Posted by fabio on Apr 23, 2003 at 5:01 PM Just what the world needs, a fat-ass armchair hero for the wusses of the liberal media and hollywood. How exciting for the lame-wad fat-boy.
Posted by Kevin on Apr 23, 2003 at 5:43 PM I stand by my earlier statement that the US has not in the last 100 yrs. occupied any country that it helped save.
The money, the politics, each gov’t has to make their own decisions & live with the consequences.
I believe Bush & Blair were right on in their decision to liberate Iraq & I bet most Iraqi’s feel the same.
Posted by Loving America on Apr 23, 2003 at 6:09 PM To Mynah:
Yes but you forgot to add that Bush is a Anal Retentive prick.
Both the Republican and the Depublican party is repulsive to me, and most Europeans, as the truth about slick Willy comes out. Slick Willy it appears always was a closet Republican. Shameful.
I would seriously consider voting for Mickey Mouse, a potted plant, a dog named Spot or Lara Croft before voting for either candidate. But I guess you really DO want a president that screws over 75 percent of the population to enrich the wealtiest 10 percent.
Funny how Communism and Capitalism run amok looks so similar.
Martin Hansen.
Posted by Martin Hansen on Apr 23, 2003 at 11:58 PM I thought I’d add a few final words to this, this, well, whatever THIS is…No, Lee the illiterate, I’m not high on glue but I guess you must be because other than not comprehending a single word I wrote, you have nothing to say…must be your brain cells minimalized by some man-made toxin among the thousands floating in our water and air. Well, let me end my participation in our little mud-slinging forum here by merely reminding everyone that democracy does not prosper but becomes it’s opposite behind closed doors and the shroud of secrecy. Let’s remember that no one here REALLY knows for certain that his/her sources are reliable or honest. In the final analysis, if none of us is privy to the counsels of power and wealth…all we can do is either scrutinize their averrals with a critical eye, comparing their words against their deeds and reach intelligent, informed conclusions based on a combination of meticulously deduced resoning and honest intuition or…merely continue to believe what we WISH and HOPE with a blind acceptance of whatever we’re told based on the, “My Country, right or wrong”, tautology. For, if we are to never ask the hard questions, (not that we ever get true answers, which in itself should arouse suspicion and disbelief), there can be no means of helping our Country correct it’s many shortcomings. If you think honestly about this, you will have no recourse than to realize this is the only way to help our Country live up to it’s mythic ideals. And is this not the only TRUE patriotism? Who among ANY of us can honestly claim that everything is FINE and needs no rectification? Who among us really believes everyone is getting a fair shake? Does anyone here with blinders on NOT perceive the multi-teired litanies of societal miseries and anxieties, the deeply-rooted intolerance, the threat of economic and social disintigration here? Is your false patriotism not the ultimate abrogation of your responsibilities? Who but, we the people, can be held accountable for ensuring that we live up to our own ideals in a nation so quickly being destroyed by the greedy and iniquitous few who own most of it’s wealth and all of the power to either be the paragon of justice and liberty or the purveyors of death, destruction, and perversion of truth?
Posted by Dom Mastroserio on Apr 24, 2003 at 2:54 AM i feel there is big change ahead in this world, and M.M is voicing the opinion of the majority. Keep it up Michael! Bowling for columbine was an amazing film and so was the book stupid white men. Bush can’t hide forever, he’ll pay for his stupidity and so will the rest of the administration.
Posted by Dan on Apr 24, 2003 at 5:08 AM Mynah,
The zoo story is to tell you how unstructured news we are receiving the media like BBC. Given the stories, I think my logic is right. But as you said, the animals might have escaped earlier before the feeding, but no mention was made in both links about that. You see, what they want to show in the first one is that “they are so humane that they will not even stand the thought of seeing starving animals” and on the second one “the iraqi regime /people are so gross that their animals are starving, so we make sure to change that”. No mention was given about the previous storyWhen thousands of afghans died in the war, a lot more coverage was given at BBC to a one eyed lion distracting the listeners from the news. How much the world will lose if one old animal dies, while thousands of people are being killed and maimed? So such small stories make me sick. Look what happend to the “little Ali” story some weeks ago. Thousands died in Iraq, but the media was focusing on one boy, and even blair was saying “I will do whatever I can to save that kid bla bla” while his and american troops were making a lot of “little Ali"s all over iraq (I am sorry to use the term in such a way).
Loving america,
It sickens me when you say the “countries we are saving”. Here you can find some list of the countries you saved and the number of people you “liberated” (maybe in the next edition of the webster american dictionary, if they are honest enough, they will put
“kill”, “maim”, “make homeless”, “destroy historical sites”, “deform the children” as synonyms for “liberation”, cause that is the way it is being used currently) .
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror.htmlAnd I don’t blame you if you still believe that your troops are there to liberate the iraq people, bacause
of not only the media but the lies you have been hearing so far about your country’s history.http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/books/TeachersLies.html
I beg you to read some of the books and articles listed on this site before concluding that your former belief is still the right one.
Posted by oumer on Apr 24, 2003 at 8:26 AM America is the most hated country in the world, Michael Moore is trying to change that, u should support him!!!
Posted by Brit on Apr 24, 2003 at 1:06 PM I think Moore has some great points about the war. I’m not sure if i think this war is right or wrong at this point, I’m waitting to till ten years after it ends to hear what really happen over there and why we went there. I dont think any reporter right now is saying whats really going on and why were over there. It could be because they dont really know why ether. Moore is a man that i feel you can never shut him up. I love his work and think that in every school should have Bowling for Columbine in its lession plans. Its a shame that because of what he did at the oscars some people won’t see his movie.
Posted by Josh on Apr 24, 2003 at 1:24 PM Sorry Oumer
As far as I am concerned liberating Iraq is the right thing to do. Saddam is a horrible person who had to go.
I don’t know all the ends & outs but what I do know is that with all the evil in this world sometimes we (US) have to get our hands dirty (so to speak) to obtain crucial information that helps us protect our country. Since 9-11, AQ terroists have been arrested all over the world & I have little doubt that a lot of the arrests were made based on intelligence information.
I believe that people like Saddam will be the end of the world & a little
“get him before he gets us” is right on the money!As for your links, I absolutely will take some time & read the latest ones you posted & I will do so open minded. *smile*
Posted by Loving America on Apr 24, 2003 at 1:33 PM Loving america,
Thanks for being so open minded. As a token of my appreciation of your willingness to learn the truth, I offer to send you a copy of John Pilger’s “The New Leaders of the world”. If you agree, and are not afraid I am a spy from the “american minstry of thought” :-) send me your address at my email address.
Posted by oumer on Apr 24, 2003 at 2:35 PM dear josh, is very right that you wait 10 years to know the truth, like every time, after things settle down it’s possible to reconstruct the whole story
but it would be very important that during these 10 years USA would not start another war anywhere in the world
Posted by fabio on Apr 24, 2003 at 2:53 PM News we kept to ourselves during Iraq’s reign of terror
Eason JordanPublished 04/14/2003
ATLANTA—Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to keep
government permission for CNN’s Baghdad bureau and to arrange interviews with
Iraqi leaders.
Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard—awful
things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the
lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff.
For example, in the mid-1990s one of our Iraqi cameramen was abducted. For weeks
he was beaten and subjected to electroshock torture in the basement of a secret
police headquarters because he refused to confirm the government’s ludicrous
suspicion that I was the Central Intelligence Agency’s Iraq station chief.
Posted by Loving America on Apr 24, 2003 at 7:53 PM CNN had been in Baghdad long enough to know that telling the world about the
torture of one of its employees would almost certainly have gotten him killed
and put his family and coworkers at grave risk.
Working for a foreign news organization provided Iraqi citizens no protection.
The secret police terrorized Iraqis working for international press services who
were courageous enough to try to provide accurate reporting.
Some vanished. Others disappeared and then surfaced later with whispered tales
of being hauled off and tortured in unimaginable ways. Obviously, other news
organizations were in the same bind we were when it came to reporting on their
own workers.
We also had to worry that our reporting might endanger Iraqis not on our
payroll. I knew that CNN could not report that Saddam’s eldest son, Odai, told
me in 1995 that he intended to assassinate two of his brothers-in-law who had
defected and also the man giving them asylum, King Hussein of Jordan.
Posted by Loving America on Apr 24, 2003 at 7:53 PM I was sure he would respond by killing the Iraqi translator who was the only
other participant in the meeting. After all, secret police thugs brutalized even
senior officials of the Information Ministry, just to keep them in line (one
such official has long been missing all his fingernails).
Still, I felt I had a moral obligation to warn Jordan’s monarch, and I did so
the next day. King Hussein dismissed the threat as a madman’s rant. A few months
later Odai lured the brothers-in-law back to Baghdad; they were soon killed.
I came to know several Iraqi officials well enough that they confided in me that
Saddam was a maniac who had to be removed. One Foreign Ministry officer told me
of a colleague who, finding out his brother had been executed by the regime, was
forced, as a test of loyalty, to write a letter of congratulations on the act to
Saddam.
An aide to Odai once told me why he had no front teeth: henchmen had ripped them
out with pliers and told him never to wear dentures, so he would always remember
the price to be paid for upsetting his boss. Again, we could not broadcast
anything these men said to us.
Last December, when I told Information Minister Muhammad Said al-Sahhaf that we
intended to send reporters to Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq, he warned me
they would “suffer the severest possible consequences.”
CNN went ahead, and in March, Kurdish officials presented us with evidence that
they had thwarted an armed attack on our quarters in Erbil. This included
videotaped confessions of two men identifying themselves as Iraqi intelligence
agents who said their bosses in Baghdad told them the hotel actually housed CIA
and Israeli agents. The Kurds offered to let us interview the suspects on
camera, but we refused, for fear of endangering our staff in Baghdad.
Then there were the events that were not unreported but that nonetheless still
haunt me. A 31-year-old Kuwaiti woman, Asrar Qabandi, was captured by Iraqi
secret police occupying her country in 1990 for “crimes” including speaking with
CNN on the phone.
They beat her daily for two months, forcing her father to watch. In January
1991, on the eve of the American-led offensive, they smashed her skull, ripped
out her brains and put them in a jar, and tore her body apart limb by limb. A
plastic bag containing her body parts was left on the doorstep of her family’s
home.
Posted by Loving America on Apr 24, 2003 at 7:54 PM I felt awful having these stories bottled up inside me. Now that Saddam’s regime
is gone, I suspect we will hear many, many more gut-wrenching tales from Iraqis
about the decades of torment. At last, these stories can be told freely.
Eason Jordan, chief news executive at CNN, wrote this article for the New York
Times.
© Copyright 2003 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.
Posted by Loving America on Apr 24, 2003 at 7:54 PM Sorry Geez,
I’ve been called all sorts of things forum-wide when all I’ve done is just simply started debating. I was cool, calm, I provided links, sources, facts, statements and after awhile the name blasting gets to you. Other forums, most people are cool and don’t resort to that. This one….wow.It’s far worse in other places. If you go to any sights that just parody like www.whitehouse.org, which has made fun of the past two presidents since it started, the comments on there are just atrocious.
True, I should keep my cool. This one particular one I haven’t.If you notice a lot of people will say you’re abusive even if you just disagree with them.
So I say this war is wrong, killing is wrong, our president’s motives are evil…and people say it’s abusive when I come back with strong arguments.
No, I don’t need to chill. The reality of it is everyone needs to vote this goddamn son-of-a-bitch president out of office before we all get killed. Oops, is THAT abusive?
Posted by neil on Apr 24, 2003 at 9:21 PM Hey, I don’t find Kevin’s statements offensive or abusive. His opinion—I happen disagree with it….
Myna, you’re cool. Both Reps. and Dems. are guilty in this case, I agree with Martin Hansen, keep up da good fight. Os, right on!Listen to Sid’s comments and ya tell ME to chill?
Okay, the issue isn’t comparing people. It’s about this never-ending cycle of war this country wants to keep engaging in until the next election.
It’s senseless.
And to help pay for it the pResident has cut veteran’s benefits, cut funding for schools? Passed more intrusive laws on your 1st amendment rights? If people are so for the 2nd amendment, why not the 1st?
Not to mention his horrible record on the environment, his shady business dealings and leaving Texas in a shambles. This is the person you want protecting you? From what, I ask? Terrorism? Ha! He’s the real terrorist.
Posted by neil on Apr 24, 2003 at 9:34 PM If tomorrow all the things were gone
I’d worked for all my life,
And I had to start again
with just my children and my wife,
I’d thank my lucky stars
to be living here today,
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom
and they can’t take that away.
I’m proud to be an American
where at least I know I’m free,
And I won’t forget the men who died
who gave that right to me,
And I gladly stand up next to you
and defend her still today,
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land
God Bless the U.S.A.
From the lakes of Minnesota
to the hills of Tennessee,
Across the plains of Texas
from sea to shining sea.
From Detroit down to Houston
and New York to L.A.,
There’s pride in every American heart
and it’s time we stand and say:
I’m proud to be an American
where at least I know I’m free,
And I won’t forget the men who died
who gave that right to me,
And I gladly stand up next to you
and defend her still today,
‘Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land
God Bless the U.S.A.
Posted by Lee Greenwood on Apr 24, 2003 at 10:12 PM I would just like to say thank you to Michael Moore. Thank you. you said what was on my mind and everybody heard. I am sorry they cut you off before you could finish. But you said enough to cause people to think, or cause an uproar. I cant believe how ignorant these people are that say you should die and you dont know anything where it actually is the opposite. You should not die and you know a hell of a lot more than any of these people think you know. well thanks again.
Posted by Josh on Apr 24, 2003 at 10:55 PM I’m waiting impatiently Farenheit 911, the next Mikael Moore’s movie. This war was definitely illegal. Where are the massive weapons of destruction? I think that Hussein was a bad guy but was it necessary to kill so much americans and Irakies people to kill him? What was so different between now and 1 year ago to justify an immediate attack? Just let people like mikael moore ask the right questions… This is by definition democracy. Everybody have the right 45 sec to tell what he thinks when he win an oscar! Or maybe we came, without to know it, a dictature.
Posted by fred on Apr 25, 2003 at 4:02 AM Michael Moore has a right as all of us in the United States to express how he feels. I agrew with him. George Jr is a fictive leader, he is destroying this country and until you conservatives wake up and realized it we are all doomed.
Posted by Scott, Ph.D on Apr 25, 2003 at 6:08 AM With power comes great responsabilities. Too bad that more than 30% of you americans can’t read this…I’m sure you’d be surprised to learn that the earth is not flat. Ohhh…and Dennis Miller, please shut the f…ck up, you miserable ignorant! If you can read this of course…
Posted by Karla on Apr 25, 2003 at 7:00 AM oumer,
I’ve been looking over the free.freespeech.org website and I have a few questions for you. These are questions based on the positions taken on the website and I am curious how closely you agree:
Do you believe that the U.S. Government commited or had precise knowledge of the 9/11 terrorists attacks?
Do you believe that the plane that crashed into the pentagon was not the airlilner reported off course but some smaller aircraft?
Do you believe Netenyahoo and Sharon are slime devils?
Many thanks if you choose to answer these.
Mynah Byrd
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Apr 25, 2003 at 7:38 AM >Do you believe that the U.S. Government commited or had precise knowledge of the 9/11 terrorists attacks?
I don’t think they planned it. But till they give an acceptable explanation of why they didn’t take action even though they were warned , people will come up with their own explanations. So what you saw on that website is one possible explanation, time will tell its veracity.
>Do you believe that the plane that crashed into the pentagon was not the airlilner reported off course but some smaller aircraft?
Similar to the above question. I don’t think so.
>Do you believe Netenyahoo and Sharon are slime devils?
I am not religious, so I don’t believe in the devil. I don’t know that much about Netenyahoo, but Sharon is very arrogant (a little less than Rumsfield) and cruel (gathering from what he have been doing since the early eightiees).
And I would like to tell you that I think some of the things I read (everywhere) are bogus. I read and try to take in only the ones that seem logical to me.
Posted by oumer on Apr 25, 2003 at 7:56 AM Fabio,
I do understand what you were saying. It would be a good thing if everyone sacrificed a little more to re-distribute the wealth, for all those suffering. I was taking things too personally those days. Depressed by watching too much ficticious news. I have not been to this site in days. Working on finding peace within and praying for the world deep within. God Bless you Fabio. You are a good person. I like what you write. I may not be back to this site, as I have gotten very busy. I do appreciate everyone speaking their heart and truth for peace and a more sane and just world. Love is the answer.
Posted by Os on Apr 26, 2003 at 7:11 AM Indeed, love IS the answer. If only certain dictatorial regimes had the slightest concept of love. They love only themselves and their power and their wealth. This is not love, this is sickness.
They must be destroyed, and the ordinary person who understands love must triumph.
It’s that simple. They must be destroyed. All men are created equal. Everyone must vote. Every vote counts. This is not negotiatable.
RJS
Posted by Rocket J. Squirrel on Apr 26, 2003 at 7:52 AM Nice words from Uri Avnery, quoted by John Pilger
Uri Avnery wrote recently about this corruption of intellect and morality. “Let’s pose the question in the most provocative manner,” he wrote on 18 April. “What would have happened if Adolf Hitler had triumphed in World War Two? Would this have turned his war into a just one? Let’s assume that Hitler would have indicted his enemies at the Nuremberg war crimes court: Churchill for the terrible air raid on Dresden, Truman for dropping the atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and Stalin for murdering millions in the Gulag camps. Would the historians have regarded this as a just war? A war that ends with the victory of the aggressor is worse than a war that ends with their defeat. It is more destructive, both morally and physically.”
Full article:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=21&ItemID=3517
Posted by oumer on Apr 26, 2003 at 3:34 PM Michael Moore is far from the idiot some of you people here declare him to be. If you disagree with his views, fine, but believe me that your comments attacking Michael Moore serve more against the validity and value of your argument than they serve for it.
I realize that there are a lot of critical-thinking and rational Americans but from a lot of the posts here, it seems to me that quite a lot of “the other kind” (the dumbass blinded kind) read inthesetimes.com. This worries me.
In particular, the fact that you’re a US army/navy/whatever vet doesn’t make your argument any more valid than mister Moore’s. In fact, of all people, I would hope that as a VETERAN you would be a little more rational when talking about war, because you would understand the implications of going to war better than the average joe. But it appears that the US War Machine has really drilled you well. Congratulations, sir, you must have been a perfect recruit.
Seriously, folks, open your eyes. A rational individual may say “well, I don’t necessarily agree with Moore but I will watch his films and read his stuff so that I can be a better judge, and I will judge based on that,” as opposed to, “I came here to see who this fat bastard was so that I make sure to not go see any of his movies.” That’s just ridiculous and shameful.
Mister Moore, Montreal welcomes you with open arms, whenever you want to visit.
Posted by Bosko on Apr 26, 2003 at 3:55 PM Seriously folks, open your eyes. A rational individual might also say: “Given the fact that Moore’s books and movies are full of factual errors and intentional rearangements of history, his work should be viewed with great skepticism and his motives should certainly be questioned.”
Rational individuals will want to go here:http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
Calling Moore fat may be accurate, but not very useful or persuasive. Like comparing Bush to Hitler, it just alerts rational individuals that the accuser doesn’t have much of an argument.Play
Posted by Play Jurist on Apr 26, 2003 at 4:39 PM Fuck off Karla!
How can you criticize when we live in a country where democracy is King only in Quebec! I’m so sick of the French trying to run everything here. Chretien is a pussy & I can’t wait to see him go! Hopefully he won’t do any more damage before his time is up although that is doubtful!
Posted by Paul on Apr 26, 2003 at 10:29 PM Mynah,
Some BBC and CBS news links about 9/11:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1992852.stm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/15/attack/main509096.shtmlhttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/08/60II/main508362.shtml
http://old.smh.com.au/news/0111/07/world/world100.html
I really believe he knew it was going to happen and let it. He’s been quoted as saying, “I really hit the Trifecta!”I don’t know enough about Israel to comment. I do believe we’ve supported them when they’ve committed crimes against their Arab neighbors. And I think their current leadership is leading them in the wrong direction. But beyond that….
Posted by neil on Apr 26, 2003 at 11:29 PM Bush always suspected Saddam was behind 9/11
(Filed: 27/04/2003)
Find undermines Blair’s doubts on link, writes Con Coughlin
The revelation that Saddam Hussein’s intelligence chiefs were seeking to establish links with Osama bin Laden’s al-Qa’eda network is the first concrete proof that the dictator was colluding with the world’s most ruthless terrorist operation.The documents discovered yesterday by The Telegraph in the former headquarters of the Iraqi intelligence service, the Mukhabarat, will also reopen the debate about whether Saddam was directly involved in the September 11 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington.
The issue of Saddam’s involvement has been a long-standing source of contention between London and Washington. In the days immediately following the attacks, President George W Bush confided to colleagues that he believed that Saddam was directly involved in the attacks. “He probably was behind this in the end,” he said.
In his State of Union speech in January, Mr Bush made the case for confronting Iraq, saying: “Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al-Qa’eda.”
This belief has been the driving force behind Washington’s determination to seek “regime change” in Baghdad, particularly after Colin Powell, the US Secretary of State, indicated in February that he had received intelligence reports that al-Qa’eda operatives had approached Iraq about co-operating on chemical and biological weapons.
Washington’s insistence that Saddam had links with bin Laden was not reciprocated in London, where Tony Blair, acting on the advice he received from British intelligence, was more circumspect about the links.
During his appearance before a Commons select committee in January, Mr Blair said that while “there is some intelligence about loose links between al-Qa’eda and various people in Iraq”, he was unaware of any evidence linking Saddam to September 11.
Posted by I LOVE DOING THIS! on Apr 26, 2003 at 11:44 PM Until now, most of the evidence presented by Washington to prove the link between Saddam and al-Qa’eda has been inconclusive. In the weeks immediately after the September 11 attacks, the Bush administration was keen to draw attention to a report issued by the Czech Republic’s interior ministry claiming that Mohamed Atta, the lead hijacker, had met an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague earlier that year. The report later turned out to be false.
Washington was similarly frustrated earlier this year when it claimed that an al-Qa’eda cell called al-Ansar al-Islam was operating in Iraq. It later transpired that the group was active in a region beyond Saddam’s control.
The new documentation uncovered by The Telegraph, however, is the first concrete evidence to emerge to back up claims made by Mr Powell during his presentation to the United Nations Security Council. He said Iraqi intelligence had funded a number of terrorist training camps in Sudan in the 1990s which were used by al-Qa’eda.
During his presentation, Mr Powell said that al-Qa’eda had been working with Baghdad since the early 1990s after reaching an understanding that bin Laden would stop targeting Saddam’s regime. “Ties were forged by secret, high-level intelligence contacts,” he said.
“We know members of both organisations have met at least eight times at very senior levels since the early 1990s. In 1996 . . . bin Laden met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official in Khartoum, and later met with the director of the Iraqi intelligence service.”
US officials also claimed that Saddam was particularly impressed by al-Qa’eda’s 1998 terrorist attacks against the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, and sent Iraqi intelligence officers to help train al-Qa’eda fighters in Afghanistan after bin Laden was forced to move his base there from Sudan.
Posted by I LOVE DOING THIS! on Apr 26, 2003 at 11:45 PM The documents also give the lie to those who said that al-Qa’eda, the Islamic zealots, would have nothing to do with the brutally secular regime of Saddam. It appears that their shared hatreds - of America, of Saudi Arabia, of the West - outweighed such considerations.
“This discovery backs up everything we have heard about Baghdad’s dealings with bin Laden,” a Western intelligence official said last night. “It shows that Iraqi intelligence was desperate to form an alliance with al-Qa’eda. And if Saddam was working with bin Laden from the mid-1990s, that raises the question of whether he was involved in the 9/11 attacks.”
Saddam himself always rigorously denied having any links with al-Qa’eda. During an interview with Tony Benn, the Left-wing former MP, in early January, Saddam said: “We have no relationship with al-Qa’eda.” He added: “If we had a relationship with al-Qaeda and we believed in that relationship, we would not be ashamed to admit it.”
Posted by I LOVE DOING THIS! on Apr 26, 2003 at 11:45 PM Mynah,
I know you love it, too!!! Cheers!!!
Posted by I LOVE DOING THIS! on Apr 26, 2003 at 11:50 PM Neil,
I read through your news links. Lots of bumbling by CIA/FBI higher-ups, connections between bin laden and Saudi Arabia and the Bushes. I just can’t come to the conclusion from all this that Bush or anyone in charge for that matter had any precise knowledge of the hijackers plans for that day or even that it would be something they would welcome. To say that is to say that these people were willing to sacrifice thousands of lives for whatever selfish reason you can imagine. It simply doesn’t make any sense, and for it to make sense, one has to invent all kinds of wild theories. Theories like this from that fair and balanced website freedomfiles.org:
For All Skeptics and Witnesses
Okay there were a lot of people who have sworn up and down that they were there and saw Flight 77 fly over them and then the explosion at the Pentagon. I am not discounting this, I believe you. What you might have seen though was a holographic Projection being overlayed on an incoming cruise missile. Hold on there! Stay with me here… Take a look at these links, the technology exists.And there are hundreds more. Not all quite this far out but close. People literally have to bend themselves into pretzels to explain why Bush is the epitome of evil in the world.
I posted this link before and to some it will appear to be a partisan attack. If you take it that way, I’m sorry, but somehow it all rings very true. It’s written by a reputable journalist so I’m assuming her facts are accurate. I think it is inarguable given the record that the left (in general) in this country is hostile toward the military, toward the CIA, the FBI and any other organization that seeks to enforce laws and preserve and protect the security and founding principles of this great country.
To be honest, I really don’t understand exactly why. I’m still working on that one.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_why_the_fbi.html
Mynah ByrdBTW, assuming there’s not some other Boise somewhere, I use to live north of you in Coeur d’ Alene. Born in Moscow. (Idaho)
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Apr 27, 2003 at 3:14 AM Last Updated: Sunday, 27 April, 2003, 01:57 GMT 02:57 UK
US testing Iraq chemical find
Previous discoveries have proven to be false alarms
The United States is testing materials found in Iraq that may have been used in the manufacture of chemical weapons, the Pentagon has said.Officials say it will be several days before they have results.
They would not say when or where the materials were found, but a US television station reported that 14 unmarked drums had been found near the Bayji, about 210 kilometres (130 miles) northwest of Baghdad, on Friday.
The Pentagon announcement came as hospital workers in Baghdad said at least 12 people had been killed by explosions at an ammunition dump on the edge of the Iraqi capital.
America’s ABC News reported that US chemical weapons specialists had tested a suspected mobile weapons laboratory.
Initial tests showed the presence of a nerve agent and a blistering agent, but the Pentagon remained cautious about the find.
The materials are being sent to the US for more comprehensive testing. The tests performed in Iraq can give false positives because similar chemicals are used in weapons and pesticides.
At least two previous suspected chemical weapons discoveries have turned out to be harmless.
But the barrels found at Bayji were near missiles and gas masks, making the US more suspicious. US forces escorted an ABC news crew to the site.
A newspaper linked Osama Bin Laden with Iraq
In a separate discovery, the UK newspaper the Sunday Telegraph said it had found documents linking Saddam Hussein with Osama Bin Laden.The newspaper said an envoy from Bin Laden’s al-Qaeda network travelled to Baghdad at the Iraqi leader’s invitation in 1998 “to establish a relationship based on their mutual hatred of America and Saudi Arabia”.
The Sunday Times, meanwhile, said that France had regularly told Iraq about its dealings with the US until at least the end of 2001.
Posted by I LOVE DOING THIS! on Apr 27, 2003 at 3:32 AM Hello, I just got back from seeing ‘Bowling For Columbine’ and I was moved by the sincerity that Michael Moore showed in filming this wonderful film. That he had to come to Canada for financing is a slap in the face to the same Hollywood ‘moguls’ who control the industry. Bravo Mr Moore on your Oscar win and on telling the truth about the American gun culture
Posted by Michel Vigeant on Apr 27, 2003 at 3:33 AM Forgive me for not replying earlier, but Iíve been busy with work and having fun. If any of you get a chance to see Cirque de Soleil, please do. Itís a great circus from our countryís neighbors up north. That would be Canada for any who may be geographically challenged.
Mynah >>>I think this kind of stuff is beneath you. All this nonsense about Bush/Nazis, staged statue toppling ceremonies in Baghdad etc. is National Enquirer/Star material and is on par with “aliens from space impregnated my dog” headlines. You presented some good information on Sudan which I earlier acknowledged and apologized to you about. But this is pure garbage.>>>
How did the Bush/Nazis ties become nonsense? Actually, I first discovered the information about the Bush familyís financing of the Nazis from the very same publication that you linked the Nat Hentoff article about the Sudan ñ The Village Voice.
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0228/ridgeway.phpJames Ridgeway is a regular contributor to the Village Voice and has written a very informative book about Neo-Nazis entitled, ìBlood In The Faceî, which was later made into a film. His writing has also appeared in Parade, Harper’s, The Nation, The Economist, The New York Times Magazine, and other magazines and newspapers worldwide.
>>>I could link you to all kinds of websites making claims about Clinton being guilty of dozens of murders in Arkansas. I’m sure you’d quickly discount them as I do. Why do you want to reflexively believe the wildest claims about GWB and his family.>>>
After reviewing the website you linked discounting the Bush/Nazi relationship, I will continue my research into this matter. One of the points that I question is the claim that Prescott Bush was simply an unpaid director. According to additional information Iíve found, Prescott Bush became managing director of Union Banking Corporation and personally ran the German end of the business. While it may be true that he and other BBH (Brown Brothers Harriman) were unpaid directors (as in Board of Directors), I doubt that as a *managing director* (employee), that Prescott Bush did not receive substantial compensation from UBC.
Posted by linda z on Apr 27, 2003 at 7:20 PM (continued)
Additional information was obtained from the somewhat irreverent, but IMHO, accurate:
http://www.bartcop.com/421102.htm
The information does originate mostly from information provided by John Loftus, former Director of the Florida Holocaust Museum, with which your link has issues. Tell me something. I did a search on the ìstraight dopeî website and found nothing regarding the wholesale election irregularities committed by the Bush team in Florida. I did a search on ìBush Florida Database Technologiesî and ìBush Florida absentee ballotsî and nothing came up. Considering the importance of these issues, I wonder how come?
I am certain that you realize that at that time, corporate law would not have allowed the seizure of the finances of employees of the banking corporation. So, while the assets of UBC were seized, Iím fairly certain that Prescott Bush was able to keep all of the salary he earned while managing director. Your link does elaborate on this issue or whether E. ìBunnyî Harriman, the major shareholder transferred any profits earned from UBC into an account controlled by BBH.
Even if you wish to discount the CIA/Nazi connection, I think that the Bush family ties to Nazis are important enough to warrant investigation. I also read that according to Washington Jewish Week, several Bush (Sr.) ethnic advisory committee members were well-known anti-Semites and pro-fascists, including persons who opposed the Justice Department’s Office of Special Investigation (OSI) probe into emigre Nazi collaborators in the U.S.http://www.skepticfiles.org/socialis/bushhoax.htm
I know Chip Berlet, the author of this article from his work with the National Lawyers Guild and can assure you that he is no right wing conspiracy nut.
http://www.publiceye.org/berlet/Berlet_Bio.htm
(continued)
Posted by linda z on Apr 27, 2003 at 7:21 PM (continued)
>>>I’m guessing you believe he was a coke fiend. As much as the media wanted it to be true, there was simply no credible proof. If there was, it would have been presented, believe me. Remember the orgasms about his DUI just before the election? Do you really believe stuff like cocaine and nazi connections would have been somehow ignored if there was any credible proof?>>>
Quite frankly, I couldnít care less if Bush used drugs or is an alcoholic. I assume that he has his alcohol and drug problems under control. I donít like his ìgit tuffî stance on enforcing drug laws against addicts, especially if he had such problems when he was younger. Personally, I feel that treatment programs are a better alternative.
>>>Now even though Gennifer Flowers described in detail Clinton’s cocaine use on air and in a very credible manner, and his own brother said he had a nose like a vacuum, I will not link you to these interviews. Even though A woman very credibly and painfully described in detail on camera in a lengthy interview with NBC’s Lisa Meyers how she’d been brutally raped by Bill Clinton and the interview was shown once on MSNBC and then shelved by NBC, I will not link you to the transcript.>>>>
Actually, Iíd like to see these links. Would you please provide a link to the transcript? It will affect my decision to support Hillary Clinton. BTW, I have heard reports that Clinton had someone who testified that they had sexual relations with him harassed by the FBI. Also, I heard that Monica Lewinskyís father was audited by the IRS shortly after she provided testimony about her relationship with Clinton.
>>>Even though Al Gore’s extensive marijuana use after Vietnam was verified by his roommate, I will reserve judgment until I see him with my own eyes in 7-ll all red-eyed and buying donuts, jerky, rolling papers and Visine and will not link you to the interview.>>>
As with Bush, I couldnít care less about Goreís marijuana use after Vietnam.
Posted by linda z on Apr 27, 2003 at 7:21 PM Oumer >>> The story you posted also looked very bogus to me. Some people really complicate life by creating “conspiracy” out of everything, like “Micheal Jackson is the antichirst”, “Kennedy is still alive” blah blah. So don’t be taken by them. They are as bad the corporate medias as long as they are preaching lies.>>>
Actually, Richard Metzger, founder of the disinformation website, conducted a series of interviews with individuals highlighting ideas never seen on television. These interviews are described as ìcomplex, often intellectually subversive thoughts ñ that are compulsively watchableî. This series ran for two seasons on Britainís Channel 4 network and were edited into four one-hour programs meant to be seen on the Sci-Fi Channel in America. The decision makers apparently declined to air it.
Some of the interviews in his book published in September, 2002 are with leading cutting-edge intellectuals and artists of our time such as Robert Anton Wilson, Howard Bloom, Douglas Rushkoff, Peter Russell and Duncan Laurie.
Fascinating, off-beat but alas, no conspiracy links.
In fact, the disinformation website links an interesting article by John Pilger.
http://www.disinfo.com/pages/news/id2743/pg1/
Posted by linda z on Apr 27, 2003 at 7:22 PM Maybe I’m just marinating in my angry young man phase but at this point in my life I am sick of the cushy left trying to be “politic”. It’s good to hear that someone in this world is dragging the demons into the light. To begin healing we must first look at ourselves in the mirror. Micheal Moore is not a true “American” or “Country Man” but instead a true citizen of this world. Concern yourselves with everthing so cries do not fall on deaf ears. Keep up the good work.
Posted by Daniel St. Germain on Apr 27, 2003 at 11:29 PM I saw Bowling for Columbine while traveling in Argentina. It was very interesting sitting in a theater in Buenos Aires watching a movie about my country and seeing spanish subtitles.
The rest of the world really doesn¥t think that highly of America but they need us for their economies to survive. Yeah America is at war and people are affected from the US. But believe it or not everywhere else is ten times more affected than the US. From gas prices rising to ecomonies trying to survive it is harder everywhere else in the world than in the US.
What is the most shameful is that we are not at war for peace, Bush has his personal agenda and this war was just a convienet way for him to get things done.
Michael Moore is right….now is the time to speak out for peace and to demand it. If we don¥t speak now then it will soon become to late.
Speak for Peace…..
Posted by Krista Keller on Apr 28, 2003 at 1:34 AM Kandra from ?>>> Before Gene was a rock star he was a history teacher. Why donít you hop on over to his site & let us all watch him bitch slap you!!!>>>
The information I have provided is generally not included in most history education, even though if one would take a class in history from someone such as Howard Zinn, one might come across these facts.
http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/barzinn.htm
I didnít major in History in college, but I did score 4.0 out of a possible 4.0 in my History classes. I hope you do as well.
I have submitted a brief commentary to Mr. Simmonsí website with links to the James Ridgeway article, the Chip Berlet commentary and a link that indicates that the current ìpresidentî solicited support from the Daughters of the Confederacy during his campaign.
http://www.commondreams.org/news2000/0218-04.htm
I hope he decides to post the letter. Iím interested in reading his reply, but I don’t believe he will.
Posted by linda z on Apr 28, 2003 at 2:15 AM Also to Shelly,
If you hadn’t relised, Mic Moore DOES support the troops. But the whole notion of ‘supporting the troops’ had gotten so twisted around by the White House people. When Micael Moore says he supports the troops, he means he is in support of their lives. He cares about what happens to them because they are just a bunch of people like himself who have gotten caught in this illegal war. When all the pro-war people say they support the troops, they mean they support the POLICY of going to war. They don’t give a crap about the soldiers lives! If they did, they wouldn’t be pushing them off into immediate danger! If they REALLY gave a damn about the soldiers, wouldn’t they be trying to PROTECT their lives?? This is what Mic Moore is trying to do. PROTECT THE SOLDIERS FROM BEING KILLED. He’s trying to bring them back from war, back to the safety of their own soil. So don’t even start with all that ‘being unsupportive of the troops’ stuff, because really, the only ones that are unsupportive of the troops are pro-war people like you! Your only supportive of the policy of killing some more Iraqis!
Posted by Maddymoo on Apr 28, 2003 at 2:18 AM I’m an Australian (from Melbourne) living in the US… It’s a sad state of affairs when, in order for me to receive accurate news reports, I rely on OS sources. I don’t even waste my time bothering to watch the so called “news” in this country anymore.
Posted by Patricia on Apr 28, 2003 at 2:19 AM ps. About time someone like Michael Moore tells it like it really is.
Posted by Patricia on Apr 28, 2003 at 2:28 AM Good on ya Mr. Moore! the world needs more people like you who are not afraid to speak up the truth. May God bless you.
Posted by Georgia on Apr 28, 2003 at 10:28 AM Bush was speaking live a while ago. Just behind him, I see two girls (most probably arabs) dressed with covered hair and there is one man like a shite muslim cleric. And after almost every other “statment” bush makes, there is a clapping. And after four or five sentences one or two persons rise and the rest follow. Bush smiles that stupid smile, whenever there is a clapping. At one time, he couldn’t even hold it he laughed. I remembered my early teens in EThiopia and watching the “communist” dictator speaking and my mom also clapped when she saw the other people clapping in the TV, because she have heard some rumours that they have some “eyes and ears” around the house and will come to us if we don’t. I am sure a lot of americans clapped also in their house, when they saw the clapping. Most probably not afraid like my mom, but because people are clapping in the TV! and it is their president speaking! And then all the blame was put in sadam. The children that died during the ten year sanction, the decline of iraq, you name it, it was sadam’s fault. All the blame was put on one stupid guy by another stupid one. Bush even had the guts to talk about removing land mines, it was not even a month since they dropped cluster bombs on iraq. He said “we will not force our culture on the iraqis” but after a while he said “Iraq should be democractic”. How can such a stupid guy like him know that democarcy is a western culture?
It sickens me to be in a world where the leader of the most technologically advanced and powerful country is such a ... and it will sicken me even more when (if) more than two hundrend millions people are following him and clapping at his “prophetic” words ...
Posted by Oumer on Apr 28, 2003 at 7:01 PM Borrowed a book today from the Library, “A people’s history of the united states” by Howard Zinn, wonderful book so far. And I come across this wonderful passage, which I couldn’t help but share with you
“IF there are necessary sacrifices to be made for human progress, is it not essential to hold to the principle that those to be sacrificed must make the decision themselves? We can all decide to give up something of ours, but do we have the right to throw into the pyre the children of others, or even our won children, for a progress which is not nearly as clear or present as sickness or health, life or death?”
He was referring to the cliams that many evil deeds were finally justified as “good for the progress of humans” or something like that. Some examples he mentions were “stalin, when he killed peasants for industrial progress; churchill explaining the bombings of Dresden and Hamburg, and Truman explaing Hiroshima”.
Be it the coalition soldier who explained his actions by saying he was in “execute mode”(that was actually a statment by one pilot after hitting some civilian target
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=51&ItemID=3448) or the sucide bomber who blows up in a bus full of children and explains his actions, in a video recorded sometime before, that they are killing his people so he will kill theirs, the Israeli “snipers” who use a missle to pick out a hamas leader, or the “softly spoken 21 year old” who “matured” after killing a ten year old iraqi (http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=3517) all consider their actions justified. And it is to us, to seek the truth with open eyes and open minds, and do something about it, because as far as I can see, the world we are living in now is producing tons of such “logical” people every day and it is us, who still have enough dignity of a human being left within us to do something to curb the trend, to shed light on the darkness of blind egoism, blind revenge and blind faith, and save the ones who are in the process of being converted to “logical”
Posted by Oumer on Apr 28, 2003 at 7:35 PM I think the most amazing thing about these “reader’s comments” is that everyone here that is bashing Michael Moore cannot spell to save their lives. You all leave a lot to be desired.
Posted by beanie on Apr 28, 2003 at 8:25 PM Nice to hear from the right wing dickheads who can’t even spell their vitriol correctly. You scare me as much as your shoe size IQ president. I don’t agree with everything Mike Moore says, but at least he formed his own opinion.
Posted by Dave from england on Apr 28, 2003 at 9:11 PM Mr.Moore, Please run for president…maybe if you did I would actually vote.
Posted by Rima on Apr 28, 2003 at 11:51 PM Kandra from ?>>>That is suppose to upset me??? Bush supports the “Daughters of the Confederacy”?Hell I do, too!!! They’re a great organization!!! Before you knock them take the time to LEARN THE TRUTH about them!>>>
I checked out this website and in my opinion, it mostly confers a nostalgic, preoccupation of having a Confederate soldier ancestor. Whatís so great about that? My grandfather was at Iwo Jima. He told me that women and children in villages on the side of the island not involved in the battle leapt from cliffs to their deaths rather than surrender to the Americans. Doesnít much make me want to create a society of ìDaughters of Iwo Jimaî.
http://news.mywebpal.com/partners/701/public/news451997.html
I find this website factually offensive. Letís begin with a few assertions of Harry Hurst. My comments are in brackets [ ].
ìThe War Between the States, commonly known as the Civil War, had little to do with slaveryÖÖ..ìContrary to the belief that we were trying to preserve slavery, that wasnít the cause,î he said. ìEach state considered itself sovereign.î [Oh, reaaaallllly? Is that why slave owners from the South repeatedly violated the sovereignty of Northern states which had abolished slavery to claim their ìpropertyî as well as kidnapping any freed blacks they could get their hands on?]
ìSecession was not a new idea,î Hurst said. New England states had also attempted to secede during an earlier war, he said. [Well, the New England secessionists held a secession convention in Hartford, Connecticut in 1814 where they decided against secession. In addition, the New England secessionists didnít actually attack Federal installations as the Confederate forces did, did they?]
Hurst said many people cling to the notion that slavery induced the war, which began in 1861. [uh, excuse me but I believe it was Alabama which issued a proclamation in January, 1860 in which the second resolution reads as such: ìThat we re-affirm so much of the first resolution of the PlatformÖÖas relates to the subject of slavery, to wit: “The unqualified right of the people of the slaveholding States to the Protection of their property in the States, in the Territories, and in the wilderness in which Territorial Governments are as yet unorganized.” In other words, not only did they want to keep their slaves in Alabama, but they also demanded the right to own slaves wherever they went.]
Posted by linda z on Apr 29, 2003 at 3:05 AM (continued)
President Abraham Lincoln produced the emancipation proclamation in 1863, two years into the war, to outlaw slavery in the South, but not the North, as a way to deter France or especially Britain from joining the Southís resistance.î [Duh, it appears that to outlaw slavery in the North would not have been necessary since that from 1777 ñ 1804 all of the Northern states had already emancipated their slaves and banned the institution.]
ìSlavery was on its way out,î he said. ìThere was never a slave ship with a Confederate flag on it.î Hurst added that the Confederate Constitution prohibited importing slaves, a measure that wasnít included in the U.S. Constitution until 1865. [Well, if this isnít a case of ìGilding the Lilyî, I donít know what is. I guess there never was a slave ship with a Confederate flag on it, because beginning in 1808, while it may not have been included in the U.S. Constitution, an act of Congress made it illegal to import slaves from foreign countries. Wow, the Confederate Constitution prohibited the importation of slaves? This was mostly done because permitting the trade might have discouraged Virginia and Maryland from entering the Confederacy, because of the excess of slaves in those states. They would not have wanted foreign competition with their interstate slave trade.]
Economics ó not emancipation of slaves ó spurred the war, Hurst said. More than 75 percent of the federal governmentís revenue at the time was generated by excise taxes on agricultural products from the South. [So what? Much is made of the fact that the South was forced to pay excise taxes on their agricultural goods and forced to pay high tariffs on imported goods. The South was certainly capable of building its own factories and manufacturing the goods that it needed without having to rely upon imports from foreign countries. That, to me, would have been the most sensible solution to this issue.]The Confederate Army treated its black soldiers better the Union Army, Hurst said. [I canít imagine how happy the black Confederate soldiers must have been to fight to retain their right to remain slaves.]
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD= 2235&dept;_id =439673&newsid=7820094&PAG=461&rfi=9
The only question I have after reading this sappy homage to The Daughters of The Confederacy is this: How many black women are members?
Posted by linda z on Apr 29, 2003 at 3:07 AM Mynah,
I’ve never been a conspiracy theorist; I’ve tried to always give the benefit of the doubt to our government, even during the Iran/Contra affair. Though I do believe that was an abomination.What Bush is doing isn’t a conspiracy, it’s just his plan to pay back his political allies and many more people will die before he’s finished. So I have to disagree with you on this, as I know you do, too. I still hold Bush accountable for knowing about 9/11, for using this tragedy for his failing presidency and for not finding bin Laden. That’s the 2nd biggest problem I have with this “war on terrorism”—he hasn’t found the biggest terrorist to ever attack America, though he promised to never stop looking.
I don’t find your link offensive or abusive nor that you believe what you believe. Not at all.Personally, I don’t find any hostility towards the military if it really DOES follow the constitution and doesn’t abuse the power it is given. Lately, that hasn’t happened because when generals do the right thing, they’re replaced by those like Tommy Franks who will blindly follow orders, though the oath he took was to uphold the constitution.
I still believe the FBI tried to do the right thing about 9/11 but was told to lay off and also was undermined by the CIA. I feel no hostility towards the FBI, but the CIA I think has too much influence and power.Coeur d’ Alene, as you know, is pretty far from Boise. Beautiful, I hear, though haven’t been that far north yet.
Posted by neil on Apr 29, 2003 at 3:37 AM linda z,
Like a criminal repeat offender, I seem to again be guilty of overreaction. I’m willing to concede after looking further into Bush/nazism that there may be some merit to the argument that Grandpappy Bush may have indirectly enabled the nazi regime. Absent any personal writings describing inner feelings, I don’t think we’ll ever know if it was done with any sympathy for the nazi cause or purely for profit. Among the thousands of Bush/nazi/hate websites I found what I thought was a sensible analysis of the controversy:
http://www.thethresher.com/indiscreet.html
And your response to Gene Simmons was a valid one. However, living in the here and now I don’t think one can argue that Israel has had much better friends than Bush and conservatives in general. This has been expressed may times by Sharon, Netanyahu, and even Barak. I’m confused, though. One faction of Bush haters portrays him as a nazi, or with nazi ties, and another paints him as in bed with Sharon and Israel. Somebody has to be wrong here.
I have no idea of the leanings if any of “straight dope” It looks on the surface to be kind of a benign dear abby type operation. It was about the only thing I could find countering the avalanche on the other side. Since they don’t, I will offer a couple points of view on the Florida mess that have been suppressed for basically the same reasons.
One is the fact that if not for early and erroneous calls by the media, there probably would never have been a fight over Florida. I personally was discouraged from voting when I saw on T.V. at work that Gore was projected to win Florida. Far more pertinent was the effect on Florida panhandle voters after hearing their polls were closed when in fact they weren’t. Of course you don’t hear much of this from the media because it makes them look real bad. Overall, early eager calls for Gore and late hesitant calls for Bush certainly affected the popular vote total.
See: http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=95000423
Also suppressed was the dissenting opinion on the report by the U.S. commission on civil rights re: voting irregularities in Florida. This was suppressed and nearly killed for obvious partisan reasons. And because it made them look real bad. And because it made them real mad. They were finally forced to post in on their site. I would challenge you to read it thoroughly:
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Apr 29, 2003 at 9:29 AM continued…....
>>I know Chip Berlet, the author of this article from his work with the National Lawyers Guild and can >>assure you that he is no right wing conspiracy nut.I sure don’t get that from reading his stuff. He seems to one of many that erroneously try to paint anyone on the right as a racist, nazi, militia member, etc. I don’t know why anyone would describe nazis as “right wing”. If anything they more closely fit with the left. Gun control, government control, indoctrination starting in preschool of their ideology, obsession with race, etc. The right conversely is associated with limited government, individual empowerment, right to bear arms, adherence to the constitution, school choice, etc. Timothy McVeigh was constantly described as a right-wing extremist. Was the unabomber ever described as a left-wing extremist? His manifesto mirrored Al Gore’s “Earth in the Balance” book, which was found in his cabin full of notes and highlights. (according to FBI agents) Why the double standard?
I don’t see Chip much interested in the unabomber or the earth liberation front, two terrorist entities that can legitimately be described as intertwined with the left.
One brave soul out there agrees with me:
http://www.chuckmorse.com/left_wing_big_lie.html
Here is the transcript of the Juanita Broaddrick interview. Having seen it on Dateline, I judged her to be very credible. I grew ashamed of someone I started out supporting. Anyone who rapes a woman is moot as a man as far as I’m concerned. One strike, you’re out!!
http://capitolhillblue.com/Feb1999/022599/datelinetranscript022599.htm
Also moot is the woman who threatens the rape victim to keep her silent:
http://www.hench.net/z101600a.htm
And yes, Juanita was audited by the IRS too, after coming forward.
Mynah Byrd (no relation to Robert “Sheets” Byrd)
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Apr 29, 2003 at 9:31 AM Hi Michael and the whole team around you,
I adored Bowling for Columbine and am in the process of adoring Stupid White Men.
I am a dual citizen half-French and half-American. Although I have chosen to live in France (because I have HIV and France thus seems a better place for me to live) my 2 sisters and my mother live in the States.
I feel so sorry for my sister Louise who is a witness to a lot of French-bashing.
I am pround of whatever sanctions we French will have to face because of the fact we stood up to America’s decision to install its concept of democracy by force in Iraq.
Has anybody in the States heard from the democratic party lately? If not, would you accept to run for president so we can pull ourselves out of this mess and back into the real world?Love and support galore,
Jeanne
Posted by Jeanne Beaufils on Apr 29, 2003 at 1:47 PM Hi Michael and the whole team around you,
I adored Bowling for Columbine and am in the process of adoring Stupid White Men.
I am a dual citizen half-French and half-American. Although I have chosen to live in France (because I have HIV and France thus seems a better place for me to live) my 2 sisters and my mother live in the States.
I feel so sorry for my sister Louise who is a witness to a lot of French-bashing.
I am pround of whatever sanctions we French will have to face because of the fact we stood up to America’s decision to install its concept of democracy by force in Iraq.
Has anybody in the States heard from the democratic party lately? If not, would you accept to run for president so we can pull ourselves out of this mess and back into the real world?Love and support galore,
Jeanne
Posted by Jeanne Beaufils on Apr 29, 2003 at 1:47 PM Would you like me to also post a bunch of nice well written documents to support my side so you can post more nice well written documents to support your side while I post a bunch of nice well written documents to support my side so you can post more nice well written documents to support your side???
The truth is that in EVERY country’s history there is war, there is politics, there are bad & good guys.
There is shame & jubilation.
It seems to me that you & a few others have spent WAY TOO MUCH time trying to find as much NEGATVE as you can going all the way back to Plymouth Rock.
Just curious as to where YOUR family ties have been through all this & just wondering why you are STILL living in the US if you hate it so much?
Posted by kandra on Apr 29, 2003 at 3:44 PM April 29, 2003, 8:45 a.m.
Roam Free
The European legal obstacles to the war on terror.By Lorenzo Vidino
n the months since September 11, U.S. authorities have received significant support in Europe in their effort to track down al Qaeda operatives. Nevertheless, the severe evidentiary requirements of many European legal systems are preventing them, in some cases, from bringing terrorists to justice.
One example of this troubling situation is currently taking place in Italy. Last January, the Italian newspaper La Repubblica reported that Italian intelligence (DIGOS) has been monitoring the activities of a suspected al Qaeda cell in the northwestern city of Turin for over a year and a half. The cell first drew DIGOS’s attention in June 2001, when the CIA raided a Peshawar office used by bin Laden operatives and uncovered several Turin telephone records.
DIGOS gathered new intelligence and identified all the members of the cell, who meet at a radical mosque in Turin’s Arab neighborhood. The mosque has been a recruiting center for mujahedeen since the beginning of the 1990s, for the wars in Bosnia and Chechnya; and its imam, Bouriki Bouchta, is famous for having defended bin Laden on Italian television in the days following 9/11.
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