On day five of the war, it was supremely ironic that network television viewers had to tune into the 75th Annual Academy Awards ceremony to hear voices that questioned the wisdom of the Bush administration. Rumblings of protest began on Saturday. At the Independent Spirit Awards (the award ceremony for independent films) in Santa Monica, California, Maggie Gyllenhaal, the star of… return to article
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Reader Comments (2170)According to confidential DIGOS reports, the Turin cell is active in recruiting young, disenchanted Muslims and in providing logistical support to a wide network of “brothers.” The alleged leader, whose name cannot be disclosed because the investigation is ongoing, has been involved in smuggling guns to the Algerian Armed Islamic Group (GIA) since the mid 1990s. He kept close contacts with several terrorists who have been arrested in Milan in the last two years, and also selected aspiring mujahedeen for training camps in Afghanistan. In fact, two of the eight “Italian” detainees in Guantanamo Bay are young immigrants in their twenties who were recruited by members of the Turin cell.
Even more alarming is the fact that the cell obtained substantial assistance from an officer at the Pakistani embassy in Rome. Telephone conversations intercepted by DIGOS revealed that a member of the cell received instructions from an al Qaeda operative in Pakistan on how to obtain false Pakistani passports from this individual. It is unclear whether he acted as a “mole” inside the embassy or if his involvement with the cell was endorsed by Pakistani authorities. In either case, this situation represents a political minefield, given the delicate position of Pakistan in the war on terror.
Repubblica reported that, after receiving the report of the investigation by DIGOS in the spring of 2002, a U.S. official in Rome said that the arrest of the members of the cell was imminent. However, no action has been taken so far. Despite intense pressure from the Americans, no Italian prosecutor has moved to indict the members of the cell.
Although the Turin cell closely fits the profile of many terrorist cells uncovered in Europe, its members have never committed a major crime, and so any Italian court would release them in a matter of days. Investigators lack any intelligence indicating that they are planning to carry out an attack. To date, they could only be charged with providing material support to a terrorist organization ó and prosecutors realize this would also be a lost battle. In fact, most of the evidence pertaining to the cell comes from the confessions of Mohamed Aouzar and Mohamed Ben Salah Sassi, the two Muslims recruited by the cell and detained in Gunatanamo Bay. Like most Western systems, the Italian legal system for the most part does not allow a witness to testify unless the defense has the ability to cross-examine him.
Posted by Proud American on Apr 29, 2003 at 4:04 PM Even if the judge admits the confessions of the two detainees without cross-examination, the defense could easily claim that the two men were forced to confess under physical and psychological pressure.
This troubling scenario is just one example of how the West is currently unprepared to effectively combat the threat of international terrorism. Other European intelligence agencies have seen the results of their work nullified by technicalities in the legal systems of their countries. Last December, for instance, a court in Rotterdam acquitted four men accused of stealing passports and credit cards and of providing support for a planned suicide bombing of the U.S. embassy in Paris. The Dutch magistrates considered that there was “no independent investigation by the police” and that the prosecutors had based their case “solely on the contents of information given by the security agency.” In other words, the Netherlands freed four men who were planning attacks on American targets ó simply because, under Dutch law, a case cannot be based on intelligence findings.
Severe evidentiary requirements and liberal courts allow known terrorists to wander the streets of Europe, deriding the legal systems of the very countries they want to destroy. New problems require new solutions, but so far European countries have been slow to catch up. Until or unless less-stringent standards can be applied to terrorist cells, our ability to prevent future attacks will be severely limited.
Thank you Europe. (sarcasm)
Posted by Proud American on Apr 29, 2003 at 4:04 PM Borrowed from a friend:
Itís been said by a sage that
There is no such thing as a bad peace
Nor is there any such thing as a good war
I have pondered a long time on those wordsI hear the voices of ghosts crying out
Millions from Auschwitz in their misery
Crying out for relief from humanityís inhumanity
Wondering if appeasement will ever end and war will begin.I hear the voices of ghosts screaming out
Millions from Bergen-Belsen in their suffering and horror
Screaming as they feel the torture of humanityís inhumanity
Wondering when appeasement will end and war for relief will begin.I hear another two million crying out
From the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge
Bleached bones bared after dying from humanityís inhumanity
As they asked where the deliverance was from a world that watched and did nothing.I listen to the dead Kurds, silenced voices that yet cry out
Wondering where deliverance was from a world that knew
Watching as a madman sought to wipe them from the face of the earth
Wondering why nothing was happening as the world basked in a good peace.I listen to the dead Shiites, tortured dead bodies crying out
Wondering why a world chose a good peace
As a madman sought to kill of their people
Men, women and children buried in anonymous graves.I listen and wonder as Iraqis themselves cry out
Living lives of terror as family members disappear daily
Into hidden prisons to end their lives in tortured agony
Delivered by madmen practicing humanityís inhumanityAnd in all this I wonder, is there ever a time
When peace is bad? Is there ever a time when war is good?
And I find in my heart of hearts that the sage was wrong
He knew not that of which he spoke.As the wise sages banter about at tables
Tossing words back and forth
Seeking peace, avoiding war
Silent to the cries of the innocent.As the sages practice their craft of politics
And the madmen continue unabated
Peace is nothing more than a sad cloak
Behind which evil reins and death rulesIsnít it funny that the ones that speak out
Avidly against war are not the ones
Lying in the graves, beaten, tortured and maimed?
They arenít numbered with the ghosts of the victims.The sage, I think, needs to join the ghosts
If but for a year or two, experiencing the
Greatest that humanityís inhumanity has to offer
And then let him speak his words.
Posted by MM SUCKS on Apr 29, 2003 at 6:03 PM The Bush administration understood that even if Saddam completely and verifiably disarmed, he would immediately restart his chemical, biological, and nuclear programs once U.S. forces departed the region and the world turned its attention to other matters. And within a few years, Saddam would likely have a nuclear bomb, which is precisely why President Bush was right to equate disarmament in any permanent sense with regime change. The inspections regime pushed by France, Germany, and Russia, on the other hand, would at best have led only to a temporary disarmament.
So while the threat to U.S. interests from Saddam was never imminent, it was always inevitable. Given that realization, the question became Do we wait for Saddam to field WMDs or do we act immediately to remove the threat? Considering that Saddam acknowledged one of his major blunders was invading Kuwait before he had nuclear weapons, the case for a preemptive strike was overwhelming ó even if WMDs were never found. ——J.D. Hayworth
Today, the first free Iraqi newspaper will hit the street, only 6,000 copies strong. It will be devoured as is the news from the free Iraqi radio and television being broadcast with our help. As more electricity is restored around the nation, so will the flow of news and ideas. So long as we are sure the Iraqi people are free to hear it, and not to fear we will abandon them to the mullahs, they will use their freedom well. It’s no wonder that the First Amendment includes both freedom of the press and freedom of religion. The Founding Fathers didn’t put them first by accident. Here, as in Iraq, those two freedoms are the foundation upon which the others stand or fall.——Jed Babbin
Posted by Play Jurist on Apr 30, 2003 at 4:18 AM I saw the speech of Michael Moore and I was really happy about this. I’m from Germany, and a lot of my friends and me had the picture, that whole America is nationalistic and dumb. But Mike changed my opinion, and gave us a bit hope to America back. If you can’t or don’t criticize your leaders, you don’t live in a democracy. And damn, fuck the mainstream media. This is propaganda, false media coverage, to report the nearly everyone booed.
Posted by Benjamin on Apr 30, 2003 at 1:37 PM I saw the oscar night live in tv. (I was very tired because it began at 2 A.m. ant stopped at 6.A.m. But iI found great what Michael Moore did. He spoke out his mind and after the night I just remembered that moment where he stood up there and spoke. (I’m sorry for my badgrammar but I’m from Austria and we don’t speak english here!)
Posted by Manuel Flaschberger on Apr 30, 2003 at 5:19 PM I was against the war but I don’t believe those who are in America’s spotlight shold give there views on sensitive subjects.
Posted by Alan on Apr 30, 2003 at 7:12 PM Fat Fuck? Shame on you for covering this idiot? Taken out and Shot? He’s had his 15 minutes? I am a Vet and to think I fought for this assholes right of free speech makes me puke??????
I can’t belive this is America.
Thankfully these are the voices of a small minority! Yeah thats right, a minority!! If you don’t think your in the minority then go out and shoot him and see what happens? Wait for his 15 minutes to be up (I think you should of put years because it’s been 14 years since he arrived on the scene with Roger & Me.
So to all the People who I quoted at the begining of this…
I might not agree with what you say…But I will fight to the death for your right to say it!
Posted by Dave on Apr 30, 2003 at 9:16 PM there are conflicts of wills in this reality of ours. natures evolution is the conquest and resolution of conflicts of will. humanity is a species of turmoil, to read the varie comments on this page, i sense the irrationality of fear. fear is a dangerous trait of humanity, victims of consciousness. our consciousness can be realized in a geometric princible, which accounts for the eternal recurrence of history, which was the favorite topic of nietzche and joyce. when will this shape evolve? america has assumed an ancient role. our leaders have developed retinas like the serpent. this serpent inhabits a man and consumes him until he is no longer the man but the serpent. and then he breaks free and cunsumes the land and all life, this serpent is mad with power, it is the greatest threat to life. and how would life respond? at the foundation of all life, is the primary motivation, the primary will, to preserve and protect life. this srpent must be killed, and every piont in history when this force manifests it is always destroyed. we face many challenges as participents in reality. technology gas evolved of its own will. in time we will witness the birth of artificial intelligence, we see the will of technology manifest in many actions of men. yet in our dreams and fanasies, we can not write a movie script when the machines dont strike back, for what kind of mind can we create at this point of ourselves? but i skip ahead, our present conflict is still ourself. and with the evolution of technology the threat of the will to power, the serpent that tempted us to know god, the force of destruction, has an arsenal that whispers “extinction.”
our society has finally reached that foretold fork in the road that was also in our fantasies. told to us by the incarnation of that other will that walks as men: wisdom.
Posted by m engleman on Apr 30, 2003 at 9:49 PM Capitalism leads to dole queues, the scramble for markets, and war. Collectivism leads to concentration camps, leader worship, and war. There is no way out of this unless a planned economy can somehow be combined with the freedom of the intellect, which can only happen if the concept of right and wrong is restored to politics———-George Orwell
Posted by oumer on May 1, 2003 at 11:05 AM I am an Australian and have until recent times been very proud to be. I would like to challenge all of you who feel hostile towards this article to do some homework and invest a little time in finding out exactly what has been done in your name throughout the world. Be very aware of an unexplored belief and please, make educated statements, not emotional ones. The investigative journalism of people like John Pilger would be a good start. Your own personal ravings are not valid if backed up by ignorance. Educate yourselves and if you take the time to look at what’s really been going on, you will shake your heads in disbelief.
Posted by Gabrielle Leven on May 1, 2003 at 12:48 PM To all those critics out there, I say….It’s much easier to shoot your mouth off than go and do your research. How brave of you to take the easy way out.
Posted by Gabrielle Leven on May 1, 2003 at 12:51 PM Dear Michael and Joel,
Thank you for providing this forum for people to speak their truths and ignorance to also be aired in plane view to be seen for what it is. About 10 days ago, I decided to stop watching the ficticious news and I have been so much happier not being told to go into panic on a daily basis.Those who have seen enough lies and propaganda on the news, I suggest you do the same to prevent yourself going on prosac made by our Administrations own Lily Pharmeceuticals. It is another way they profit from war, disease, poverty and pollution. Their trademark of greed.
The best thing we can do for our world right now in protest of this fear intimidation, anger, injustice and ignorance, is to find inner peace and spread joy and light to the world. On a practical level we all need to vote out our corrupt current dictators and encourage a trial for their numerous crimes. We still need to speak our truths and counteract all the ignorance.
However, we also need to enjoy life to the fullest. Either they will continue to have their way and we will not have this sweet Earth to enjoy much longer, or peace will catch on and spread around the globe and people will start taking positive loving steps to heal and correct the damages that have been done. Love yourself and all others despite their ignorance and spirit will find a way to heal this sweet Earth.
Posted by Os on May 1, 2003 at 6:00 PM I for one, completely agree with all the celebrities and non-celebrities who are against this “fictitious war”. It is an abomination and a joke. Even after the war is supposedly over, there has still been no evidence to support our going over there in the first place. Michael Moore said on Oscar night what every true American wants to say but doesn’t have the means or the opportunity to say what we believe. I thank him and everyone like him for standing up for us all “inthesetimes”...
Posted by Nikki on May 1, 2003 at 6:21 PM MICHAEL MOORE:
YOU ARE A MAN WITH BIG BALLS!!
GREAT CIVIL COURAGE!!
KEEP THE GOOD WORK!!
Posted by Horst Hujer on May 1, 2003 at 11:01 PM Can I suggest to all the right-wing, pro-war respondents to this page that they read Catch-22, by Joseph Heller. It might just teach you something, which is probably why you won’t.
And a further question to the above people; if getting rid of Saddam, freeing Iraqis etc etc is all so important, why was there no pro-war protests BEFORE Bush started up his rhetoric? Why weren’t you out there demanding action on behalf of the Iraqi people, like many did on apartheid in South Africa etc etc? It seems to me that no-one bought this idea before Bush rode in his white charger, so you are either a) incapable of thinking for yourself, b) grossly misinformed about the world you live in, or c) only back this war because a Republican leader says so, and your whole ethos reacts against questioning your divinely appointed representatives. Which is it?
Posted by Luke on May 1, 2003 at 11:59 PM My anger at the irresponsible and fanatical foreign policy of Mr Bush is only surpassed by my shame that our own (so called) ‘socialist’ Prime Minister supports such an outrageous policy.
Posted by James Cooke on May 2, 2003 at 9:03 AM I feel sorry for micheal moore reading these points. He puts so much effort into showing you that we are all being tricked by people in power - then some prick tries to reply to these points with “MM should be taken out and shot”. Irony anyone?
Posted by Nick on May 2, 2003 at 9:29 AM Before anyone need make any judgements about Michael Moore and his speech, there comments are unwarranted unless they indeed did see the oscars and have also seen his follow-up backstage press conference. Michael Moore is one of the most well spoken individuals i have had the pleasure to see, read, and listen to. Although his opinions are rather one sided, I think his points need to be made. CNN and other mass (American) media has been praised for their speculation on the war and what its affects are to the point of blind patriotism. Let us remember many HUMAN BEINGS did DIE in this unwarranted war (where are those weapons of mass destruction?; by the way where is Osama and where are those votes from Florida?). If American television network stations are not going to report what actually happens rather then what the American public wants to see so that good ol’ Bush gets elected again, then Michael Moore needs to make as much of an impact upon American information as he can. New reporting has now become INFOtainment and no longer has any unbiased credibility. By the way Michael Moore has made that same speech to every awards show he won at up until and including the Academy Awards. I praise him for his courage to speak out against the ignorance of public perception and mass media.
Posted by Ben on May 2, 2003 at 1:12 PM Freedom of speech is one those freedoms that the Bush administration is trying to take away. Name calling is the action of stupidity not wisdom, Voltaire said ” I do not agree with what you say butr I will defend with my life your right to say it” I DO AGREE WITH MICHAEL. We should not be like sheep that follow the leader to perdition.
Posted by ROSS on May 2, 2003 at 10:01 PM Michael Moore should be ashamed of himself for distorting the truth the way he did.
Hos documentary was full of errors….....
Posted by Bill on May 3, 2003 at 1:10 AM hi, im from a small country far away from america…a country that most americans dont know about…from an outsiders point of view america is a very scary place…its a country that seems to think its the world…to the rest of the world an american is quickly thought of as ...ignorant loud and arrogant…and i know this isnt true for all of you…but you seem so oblivious to the rest of the world (looking for terrorists is not the attention i mean)and so caught up with yourselves that you have forgotten that there are other people out there with other religions traditions problems…america really scares me…all i wish is that you look outside…learn from other people…i am sure then you will start to appreciate and respect other cultures and them you…which will make america a safe place…im not tring to stir you up…i just think you need to know what you are like
Posted by jonathan on May 3, 2003 at 10:23 AM anyone who speaks violently against Michael Moore only proves him right in that they are ignorant, uneducated, immoral, inhuman, and really nothing but a bunch of sheep who cannot think for themselves. Shame on all of you, for worshipping a government that is killing you daily in the name of thier God (not Allah), you know the green one who clearcuts mountains, toxifies our earth, and uses money that should go for education to make fallical warheads for an overrated circle jirk. To prove it take a look at one of the longest letters in this lot for the ignoramous who says he is from El Lay, you definately need to read more.
Peace across the universe!
Posted by Misha on May 4, 2003 at 4:05 AM Oh yeah, and I was born in America, raised in America, and am very ashamed of America, its like an overspoiled child who if he doesnt get his way he becomes a bully at school. Grow up you’re only 227, there are single buildings in this city oler than that whole country, oh of course I am speaking the of HIS-tory after the mass genecide of Native Americans, who really knows how old thier country was before the spinless murdering white man came over with thier filthy blankets, alcohol & GUNS. Can someone answer me this….why are other countries not allowed to have weapons of mass distruction, but America is? Talk about hypocrisy.
Posted by Misha on May 4, 2003 at 4:39 AM Well, I’ve just read through each and every comment and am a little confused as to whether or not those who have commented here have actually seen Moore’s new film. Those who speak with hate and use juvenile language speak of the same fear that got this “great” country into thinking that we may police any nation as we please, including, of course, our own. I am truly saddened when I read or hear negative comments such as these because it leads me to believe that perhaps Bush is speaking for the people of the nation and that I am wrong in assuming that all people are innately tolerant and loving. One thing that gives me hope, though, is that we are reading articles like this at all. With education comes the ability to question the things which are put in front of you; to all of you who regurgitate mainstream propaganda, please ask yourselves if you truly know the facts of which you so passionately speak. Once you can honestly answer that, then I would be happy to hear anything you have to say. Until then, please put more thought into your words- even if only for your own sake. And if there is anyone that wants to truly know why there are people living amongst them that are ashamed of their country, their president, and of themselves, please feel free to respond and I will gladly share any knowledge I have about these fictions and direct you to further reading so that maybe, one day, fear and hate will no longer control us.
Posted by Danielle on May 5, 2003 at 6:35 PM linda z,
Like a criminal repeat offender, I seem to again be guilty of overreaction. I’m willing to concede after looking further into Bush/nazism that there may be some merit to the argument that Grandpappy Bush may have indirectly enabled the nazi regime. Among the thousands of Bush/nazi/hate websites I found what I thought was a sensible analysis of the controversy:
The website which you feel to have a ìsensible analysisî failed to indicate that the Nazi military officers and neo-Nazis on Bush Sr.ís campaign were actually on the ETHNIC advisory board. Instead, it indicated that they served as ìlow-level operatives for the Republican National Committeeî. Also, it was pretty clear that after war was declared on Germany, all business dealings with the Nazis should have been shut down. Instead, Bush & Co. continued business as usual. I wonder why no one was charged with treason? Especially the guys who were running guns to Germany?
>>>One is the fact that if not for early and erroneous calls by the media, there probably would never have been a fight over Florida. I personally was discouraged from voting when I saw on T.V. at work that Gore was projected to win Florida. Far more pertinent was the effect on Florida panhandle voters after hearing their polls were closed when in fact they weren’t. Of course you don’t hear much of this from the media because it makes them look real bad.>>>
Gee, you canít imagine how it breaks my heart that Republican voters donít know what time their polls close. J I bet you got real mad. When I moved to my neighborhood, one of the first things I did was to locate the polling location in my neighborhood and find out its hours of operation. Mine has been open from 6 am to 9 pm Eastern time every election since I moved here over 12 years ago.
>>>Also suppressed was the dissenting opinion on the report by the U.S. commission on civil rights re: voting irregularities in Florida. This was suppressed and nearly killed for obvious partisan reasons. They were finally forced to post it on their site. I would challenge you to read it thoroughly.>>>
The dissent was written by GOP appointees if I remember correctly. In addition, despite the fact that (mostly Democratic) voters were illegally taken off the voting rolls in Florida, their right to vote still has not been reinstated. Where do the authors of the dissenting opinion have to stand on this issue?
(continued)
Posted by linda z on May 6, 2003 at 4:18 AM (cont’d)
>>>Berlet seems to one of many that erroneously try to paint anyone on the right as a racist, nazi, militia member, etc. I don’t know why anyone would describe nazis as “right wing”. If anything they more closely fit with the left. Gun control, government control, indoctrination starting in preschool of their ideology, obsession with race, etc. The right conversely is associated with limited government, individual empowerment, right to bear arms, adherence to the constitution, school choice, etc.>>>
IMHO, only women should be allowed to have guns. Violence, government and school choice could be easily be dispensed with if everyone were to live like the Amish. Racism could easily be overcome if everyone were to marry someone of a different race.
>>>Was the unabomber ever described as a left-wing extremist? His manifesto mirrored Al Gore’s “Earth in the Balance” book, which was found in his cabin full of notes and highlights. (according to FBI agents) Why the double standard?>>>
Honey, why donít you pen that thoughtful, insightful tome of why the Unabomber and Al Gore werenít running mates for the presidential election? Iím sure there will be an audience for it. You can begin with the Daughters of Confederacy book club.
>>>One brave soul out there agrees with me.
http://www.chuckmorse.com/left_wing_big_lie.html
Is this guy a Rush Limbaugh wannabe or what?
>>>Here is the transcript of the Juanita Broaddrick interview. I grew ashamed of someone I started out supporting. Anyone who rapes a woman is moot as a man as far as I’m concerned. Also moot is the woman who threatens the rape victim to keep her silent: And yes, Juanita was audited by the IRS too, after coming forward.>>>
Iím going to hold off on making a judgment on this. I always felt that Clintonís extramarital affairs were a private affair between him and his wife. Juanitaís thinly veiled assertion that Hilary somehow knew she had been raped and was trying to cover for Bill does not appear to be valid. He might have admitted to having a sexual relationship with Broaddrick, but I imagine that Hilary wanted to be assured that she wasnít going to go out and publicize it.
>>>Mynah Byrd (no relation to Robert ìSheetsî Byrd)>>>
Would you clarify why you refer to Clinton as the first ìblackî president? (4/13/03, 12:31 am post)?
Posted by linda z on May 6, 2003 at 4:20 AM to proud american:
europe is trying to improve little by little and anycase adhered in full to the international court aganst war crimes, which USA did not, is this your input to international cooperation? not to mention Kyoto protocol against pollution, and the nuclear treaty and so on, before being sarcastic scratch your ass well
Posted by fabio on May 6, 2003 at 2:04 PM and my mind also goes to the Silvia Baraldini affair, another good way to deal with international bodies indeed!
Posted by fabio on May 6, 2003 at 2:43 PM it just goes to show ,we the democratic west go to liberate the “poor iraq’is” to give them the right for freedom and of being able to speak. when in my own country the uk,the labour government has sacked an mp george galloway, for here this treason? ,for appossing the war!!!!!!!!free speech means just that ,even though u may not sometimes agree with what is said.
Posted by Leon Driscoll on May 6, 2003 at 7:55 PM in italy we just had a couple of episodes with mental disease (that had the permit to carry weapons) that got mad and begun to shoot at everyone in sight (several died)
shame on the cops for not having retired the permit to carry the weapons knowing both the guys were on psycho cure, but every day I reinforce the idea that neither sane nor insane should have the right to carry a firearm, it’s dangerous for the community, Moore is right, no weapons no dead , put it in your brains , americans that subscribe to NRA, 1 loaded gun = 6 possible dead men
Posted by fabio on May 7, 2003 at 8:48 AM Well ,
I have read Mr. Moore’s book “Stupid White Men"and I must say that I am just sorry that I did not see his award winning speech.(smiling big)If we really look at the big picture we will all see there are a lot of “Useful Idiots” posting their opinions here…We all need to wake up. Our children are suffering..the A"american family” is all but lost.
I really wish that for one week all americans who make less than fifty thousand dollars would just stay home and do nothing…I mean turn off all electricity buy nothing and don;t go anywhere…anything that requires money either making or spending..just do nothing I think that corporate america would just go crazy. that would hurt therre pockets.
I am also reading books by Ms. Arriena Huffington: Pigs at the Trough and Mr Greg Polast : The Best Demorcracy Money Can Buy…I think that we all should read these boks and really sit back think. I mean just think…THE TIME IS NOW FOR US TO WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then after all the thinking is done we need a plan ...a working plan to rid ourselves of selfserving,selfish people who run the major corporations of America. K-marts top excutive made about $237 million in two years…they laid off 22,000 workers with nothing no serverance pay, I mean nothing.
Just look at Ken Lays wife she has the ordasity to open up a shop in Houston,Texas ( a resale shop)..the name of it is Jus’ Stuff…well I say it is not Jus’ Stuff….the so called stuff she is selling belong to the 5,000 workers who no longer have a job thanks to her Husband and all the other free criminals who worked for Enron.. we have got to WAKE UPWe have to stop worring about Mr Moore’S weight problem and look at the big picture.
IN THE YEAR 2001 IF YOU QUALIFIED FOR EARNED IN COME YOU CHANCES FOR BEING AUDITIED BY THE IRS WAS 1 OUT OF 47…BUT IF YOU MADE OVER A 100,000 YOUR CHANCES WERE 1 IN 208…COME ON PEOPLE AND WAKE UP….
Don’t you think something is wrong with our country….
Just giving some food for thought
Peace ( not likely)
Posted by J.P. on May 7, 2003 at 6:56 PM I am a New Zealander living in the US, and happen to agree with MM’s comments. However, what is most concerning about this issue is the apparent mob mentality of the current USA. Whether justified or not, Bush has now set a precedent that ultimately allows invasion of a foreign country if the government of that nation is less than desirable. Did Saddam need to be removed - probably. Did the US have the right to do this without UN backing - no. Will this war lead to greater international safety and stability - not a chance. The media here tells a different story than that of overseas nations, and Americans would probably be shocked to learn how their nation is perceived by the majority of the world. The fear people have now of speaking their mind against this government and war is terrifying, and the US is certainly no longer the “land of the free”. Democracy reigns, but much more freely in the South Pacific, and other regions of the world than North America.
Posted by M. King on May 7, 2003 at 8:01 PM Hmm, Halburton is given a 4 billion dollar contract unconditionally, no other bids were accepted and they’re going to run Iraq’s oil. Of course, once congressional leaders started questioning this, “then, uh, well, we WILL open up some bids…”
They had illegal dealings with Iraq and had fines levied against them and THEY are given this contract?
Thought the war wasn’t about oil.Bush is showing his true colors.
Give him a little more rope…..
Posted by neil on May 8, 2003 at 1:28 AM U.S. Finds Iraq Contractor with No Political Ties
Scott Ott(2003-05-07)—The U.S. government has awarded a $7.9 Billion contract for the redevelopment of Iraq’s oil industry to the only company it could find that had no political connections.
The White House, under pressure from Democrats to avoid awarding bids to major campaign donors, located the contractor in rural Howard, Pennsylvania.
Bob Yoder, of Howard, who runs a small engine repair shop, salvage yard and “groundhog mitigation service”, said he would do his best to get Iraq’s oil industry “up and humming again.” Mr. Yoder has never contributed to any political campaign and has never voted in an election.
“Between the engine shop and shooting groundhogs, I really don’t have time for politics,” said Mr. Yoder. “My old lady and I are excited about this deal because we’ve never flown in an airplane before.”
Posted by Play Jurist on May 8, 2003 at 6:26 AM I fully agree with JP, please at least try it: do not buy a fucking thing, do not consume for a while, donot enrich the richest, go to the small shops run by families not to the mega supermarket, do not buy the new car the new stereo the new useless item that comes to your mind, boycott the unjust system, if you do not fuel them they’ll fall, protest, make strikes, demand for social reforms, do not fear to be identified as communists, who claim social justice and assistance is not a communist, it’s the one denying these basic right that’s a fascist
Posted by fabio on May 8, 2003 at 7:18 AM Hi Linda Z, if you’re still out there,
>The website which you feel to have a ìsensible analysisî failed to indicate that the Nazi military officers and neo-Nazis on Bush Sr.ís campaign were actually on the ETHNIC advisory board.>
Like I said, I’m willing to accept the possibility that wrongs were committed by Bushes gone by. How’s that for open mindedness? I gotta draw the line with 41 however. To think that someone who volunteered at 17 to fight the Nazi’s is somehow friendly with them or their flaks doesn’t fit. It doesn’t pass the common sense test. And 43 has totally lost the Nazi vote.
>Gee, you canít imagine how it breaks my heart that Republican voters donít know what time their polls close.>
No sympathy? OK, but can you imagine the screams coming from the left if suppose the Panhandle had been mostly democratic and FOXNEWS had made erroneous statements about poll closing times? Or if Bush’s projected wins in other states had been announced right away and Gores projected wins had been delayed? There would have been shrieks of disenfranchisement and racism. Why the double standard?
>>>Also suppressed was the dissenting opinion. I would challenge you to read it thoroughly.>>>
>The dissent was written by GOP appointees if I remember correctly. In addition, despite the fact that (mostly Democratic) voters were illegally taken off the voting rolls in Florida, their right to vote still has not been reinstated. Where do the authors of the dissenting opinion have to stand on this issue?>
Yes, and the majority opinion was written by DEM appointees. What’s your point? Are you saying that GOP appointees opinions are to be discounted simply because they are Republican? I’m forced to believe you didn’t read the minority opinion because issues of voter purge and discrimination were
thoroughly addressed. Again:http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/dissent.htm
BTW, the one group that was the most likely to be “disenfranchised” was black republicans.
>IMHO, only women should be allowed to have guns. Violence, government and school choice could be easily be dispensed with if everyone were to live like the Amish. Racism could easily be overcome if everyone were to marry someone of a different race.>That would solve a LOT of problems, agreed!
continued….......
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 8, 2003 at 8:14 AM page 2
http://www.chuckmorse.com/left_wing_big_lie.html
>Is this guy a Rush Limbaugh wannabe or what?>
You seem to want to avoid addressing arguments by pigeonholing people.
>Iím going to hold off on making a judgment on this. I always felt that Clintonís extramarital affairs were a private affair between him and his wife. Juanitaís thinly veiled assertion that Hillary somehow admitted to having a sexual relationship with Broaddrick, but I imagine that Hilary wanted to be assured that she wasnít going to go out and publicize it.>
It’s too bad you missed the T.V. interview. I know it’s a little hard to judge just from the transcript.
Yes, it’s possible that Bill merely told Hillary that he screwed her. But it’s also possible that he realized the gravity of what he’d done, leveled with her, and thus Hillary’s friendly persuasion. Either way, it’s a window into Hillary’s mind and priorities. Most normal women would be incapacitated by the revelation that their husband had been unfaithful or had raped someone. They would not be going to any events with him to be sure.
I don’t believe much in judging office holders by their relatives mis-deeds or even their own prior to holding office to a certain extent. We all know about JFK’s father Joe and his illegal and immoral carrying on. I’m sure many other presidents from both parties have had rotten apples for dads and grandpas.
My dad who is a big Bush hater was all obsessed about how Bush supposedly did this or did that in his past according to a book by a FELON. I told him look Dad, I watched Bill do his damage control about Gennifer Flowers on 60 Minutes and I told myself that this guy’s behavior is long past and has no bearing on his potential presidency. He only lost my support when his behavior IN OFFICE was inappropriate and dangerous. A person deserves a chance to earn our trust absent solid proof of serious deficiencies in judgment and morality. (like being a rapist)
>Would you clarify why you refer to Clinton as the first ìblackî president? (4/13/03, 12:31 am post)?>Linda, where have you been? You must have a life, good for you. Clinton was dubbed America’s first black president by author Toni Morrison. Type < “first black president” clinton > into Google and you can learn all about it.
Mynah Byrd (no relation to Robert ìSheetsî Byrd)
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 8, 2003 at 8:16 AM I’d rather have a president that fucks smokes pot and play music whilst taking a bit care of the social assistance, than one that grab money everywhere and lobby with the friend to put up usless wars in order to favour weapons producers etc…
unfortunately my president is a thief, corrupted Mafia helper and seems that never fuck given he’s so nervous….
let’s judge leaders by the way of life of the poorest ones, if the government improves the unlucky people wellness is ok if it improves the rich people status it’s a shit
Posted by fabio on May 8, 2003 at 10:36 AM fabio wrote:
“I’d rather have a president that fucks smokes pot and play music”
God help us!
I know someone looking for a job. Does Itlay require their presidents be born in Italy, or can they be from Arkansas?
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 8, 2003 at 4:40 PM Im 16 and from England so maybe I’m not the best judge but whether you like him or not it would be nice to see some of these people posting replys growing up a bit and respecting Mr Moore’s right to freedom of speech. I also think his appearance is pretty irrelevant and shows up some of the problems many people have with modern America, and before you start critising opinions you ‘assume’ he has, do some research before you put your size 10s firmly in your mouth. And even if he is only using his ‘15 minutes’? Its not a crime. Personally I think Michael Moore, more often than not, is good value for the opinions to which he is entitled.
Posted by Joe on May 8, 2003 at 5:09 PM Fabio,
I like a lot of what you have to say…but I cannot read what you’ve just written about your preference for a fun-loving democrat to the evil bush without having to add my own two cents and remind you (or inform you) that Clinton was one of the most destructive (and one of the most loved!) presidents of US history. He is a war criminal and is responsible for bombing Iraq, Afghanistan, and doing much more in Kosovo. The sanctions he placed on Irag have made Iraq what it is today- look at the mortality rates and the instances of malnutrition and disease, especially in children. He staunchly supported Turkey in their massacre of the Kurds and increased US aid to Columbia. And he did this all with a charming smile and an intern that just so happened to draw attention away from what was really happening. So please don’t say that you prefer Clinton to Bush because they are the same person. Any person who gets to that position of power must do these things as a part of their job and duty to their country. That is why, I believe, we must look towards the root of the problem and see that as long as we keep “voting” for someone to make decisions for us and to act in our names (and with our tax dollars), we are just as criminal as Bush or Clinton, or Husein.
Posted by Danielle on May 8, 2003 at 5:49 PM George Bush is a fine example of how a president should be, Kind, caring, considerate. A peacemaker and someone who readily goes to the aid of any nation living an inhumane nightmare. WHAT A PILE OF BOLLOCKS> if you agree with that, I don`t think that byou are even capable of appreciating another point of view. George Bush visited Northern Ireland and I can say with pride that his visit was most unwelcome. George Bush and his merry men in the pentagon are just the same as the people that they claim to be waging war on.. ie war-mongers and terrorists. Northern Ireland has welcomed a few American Presidents. BUSH IS NOT WELCOME HERE. Michael Moore would be welcomed with open arms on the strength of what I have read in his book .. WE TOO HAVE CORRUPTION RUNNING THROUGH OUR ESTABLISHMENTS..
Posted by james on May 9, 2003 at 2:53 AM Once again class. Let’s review:
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
If, after reading this you continue to buy into this guy’s scrambling of history as anything resembling “truth”, you are quite simply a fool. He got your money and you were had.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 9, 2003 at 7:49 AM let’s just say I’d prefer a president that smokes pot and play music and who’s not Clinton, just please free us from Berlusconi, are yoou all informed about what kind of criminal he is? nho wonder why he’s a close friend with Bush
Anycase my provocation is that in any case having sex or smoking pot are not that bad things compared to others, everybody knows about Sudan, Afganistan etc… under the Clinton’s reign, he should have been criticized for that, not for having blowjobs , that’s what I do not understand, how all the people got ashamed for that, wasn’t there any better reason for letting him go?
Posted by fabio on May 9, 2003 at 10:27 AM Sorry danielle for my superficiality, not always easy to give clear pictures in few lines…
Posted by fabio on May 9, 2003 at 10:29 AM to myna bird:
in fact nobody kills nobody inthe USA, there are no weapons around, there is not the NRA, there is not the promotion of the ownership of weapons, there are no shootings in the schools, it’s all fiction put up by Moore in his movie (not a documentary, pay attention!) it’s fantasy in a fantasy world and Myna is the little gnome of the wood seeking the thruth
Posted by fabio on May 9, 2003 at 10:34 AM REGISTER VOTERS
TEACH TRUTH
LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL
Posted by Buddha Jesus Mother Teresa Aun San Suu Kyi on May 9, 2003 at 2:33 PM REGISTER VOTERS
TEACH TRUTH
LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL
Posted by Buddha Jesus Mother Teresa Aun San Suu Kyi on May 9, 2003 at 2:33 PM Well, I see we have not grabbed the concept.
We Americans would not know truth if it bit us on the ass.
As far as the president select goes ...he should really leave….he got on an airplane ( we he could have ridden a helicopter) to land on some boat….it all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$..he is a “USEFUL IDIOT” I have met his mother and I can not believe that she would breed something like that ..it had to come from his fathers side…
Posted by J.Pugh on May 9, 2003 at 6:14 PM fabio,
In regards to Clinton being dismissed for blow jobs, that is not the reason he was “let go”. He was impeached because he lied under oath in a sexual harassment case.
The prosecution was attempting to prove a pattern of behavior. He lied about his sexual relationship with a very young women under his control in the workplace (the Whitehouse) to try to hide that pattern, thereby robbing the young lady suing him of her right to redress under sexual harassment laws that are so championed by the left.
Not a peep from them on this case, however.
fabio wrote:
>In fact nobody kills nobody in the USA, there are no weapons around, there is not the NRA, there is not the promotion of the ownership of weapons, there are no shootings in the schools, it’s all fiction.>
Again:
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
Try to focus this time. I know it’s a lot to read and there are some big words, but you can do it.
Mynah (little gnome of the wood seeking the thruth)
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 9, 2003 at 10:09 PM I’m sure people like Kandra and Mynah Bird will fully enjoy their lives just as fulfilling and full of joy under the nascent dictatorship many of the rest of us really don’t want. Maybe if they kiss enough ass in just the right way they too may be placed in positions of loyal petty tyrants. How grand their lives will be then! All their pet biases and prejudices need no longer be masked. They’ll be able to enjoy the new freedom to be just like everybody else. No? Sure they will because they’re adaptable. They’re chameleons. They have no convictions and therefore need not reconsider the convictions of forced choice they’ll be forced to adopt when the dictatorship is fully entrenched. The Constitution? Bill of Rights? Amendments? Those were a nice tale for the gullible but under the NEW reality, (which they’ll have to accept in full or pay the piper), so long as they don’t get caught not looking just so or perhaps blurting out some subconcious belief at odds with the prevailing list of acceptable beliefs, that old American Dream, that equality under the law crap, that innocent until proven guilty garbage, that won’t apply to them because they know how to keep their noses clean and talk the talk. Too bad if you can’t, that’s your own fault. Ah, heaven at last! Maybe everybody will have to wear Dubbya or Laura masks when they go out. Won’t that be a blessing! Why not just get cosmetic surgery so’s you can look like ‘em naturally and not have to worry about forgetting to don the masks? But you’d better get your DNA in line too because you’ll have to fulfill certain narrow criteria so’s you don’t have to be sterilized. Won’t that be just peachy? And those darn classical books. Finally, they’ll all be burned along with all the great Art, philosophy, and any version of the bible not read by the Dubbya Dynasty. Yes, it’ll be a grand world for the likes of you folks out there who see nothing wrong with what’s goin’ on. Just don’t get caught being yourself. That may become a crime punishable by frontal lobotmy.
Posted by Dom Mastroserio on May 10, 2003 at 1:39 AM Michael Moore forces you to see reality. Ger your wee sheep eyes out of yer arses and stop fooling yourselve.
Those who dont like Michaels service he does by protecting freedom of speech and showing you who and how you are being screwed , cannot or will not face reality or by chance , jjust loves to hate.
be thankful the USA has someone wi the baws to do what he does. He is a heroe for justice . even ableedin moron can see that.
oh how frightened some of you are that you have bought into lies all these years
Posted by REALITY on May 10, 2003 at 4:55 AM i just want to say that even though im only young, i no darn well whats going on with bush, america’s suppose of “president”. i think moore is brilliant n to all of u who think bush is almighty n that moore sux, shame on u! i can think of millions of things that little bushy’s made mistakes on but i cant think of a single mistake that moore has made. bushy’s got severe problems with his head! i mean what would it feel like to know that you’ve just declared war on another country and kill so many people for no reason at all? i seriously can’t believe that bastard!
Posted by nick on May 10, 2003 at 10:09 AM there’s a girl called shelley who has said shame on us for standing up in what believe in? well, BITCH, you’ve got another thing comin’ for ya! how does it feel to have an idiot running your country, eh??? i mean for gods sakes! your jsut sitting on your fat are while this arsehole is sending poor bloudy kids do his dirty work! i dont believe in any form of violence what so ever n ive got 3 words for you shelley: 1) SHAME 2) ON 3) YOU!!!
Posted by anon. on May 10, 2003 at 10:34 AM Cher Monsieur Moore, I have tried to send you an e-mail, re your book and a related topic. I cannot seem to send it;- I don’t have your correct e-mail address. Could this be obtained? Merci/Thanx, RIK
Posted by R-J McMullen on May 10, 2003 at 5:16 PM Hey, Neil from? If you can’t even spell lobotomy and all you have to contribute is some sort of one-line half-assed personal knee jerk brain vomit, may I suggest you pick up a real book every now and then, even a dictionary. Start with the letter, “A”, then go to, “L”. With your attention span, the two words I have in mind may be something you can handle. Otherwise, write to Bill O’reilly et alia…they love to hear from self-programmed sheep who don’t know they’re being led to slaughter like yourself. Keeps their own offspring safe from having to prove the validity of the wars they espouse by actually volunteering for combat. What a waste of space that was! Anyway, Here’s a Lord’s Prayer for our times: OUR GOD IN HEAVEN, EVERYWHERE, HALLOWED BE THY OMNIPRESENT SPIRIT, THY OMNIPOTENT CREATIVITY EVER FECUNDATING, THY LOVE EVER UNCONDITIONAL…HELP US OPEN OUR SOULS’ VISION TO THY ILLIMITABLE WONDER, OUR SOULS’ EARS TO THY MIRACULOUS HARMONY…OUR MINDS’ TOUCH TO THY INFALLIBLE WISDOM…OUR VANITY’S BLINDNESS TO THY UNENDING MERCY…OUR MURDEROUS PRIDE TO THY ETERNAL WILL…SO WE MAY JOYOUSLY KEEP THY LAW AND FINALLY ARRIVE AT THY PRIMAL EXPECTATION OF OUR POSSIBILITIES. FOR YOURS IS THE DREAM THAT CREATED US; AND OURS IS THE PERVERSION WE HAVE WILLFULLY WRAUGHT OF THAT DREAM. EVER WITHIN YOUR ETERNAL MOMENT…AMEN
Posted by Dom Mastroserio on May 10, 2003 at 7:46 PM Dom,
Your fears of dictatorship and censorship are as irrational as your fear of paragraphs. If you haven’t noticed, the current administration is in the business of destroying and discouraging dictators, not becoming one. You seem to think that just because 7.5 out of every 10 Americans approve of GWB, it means they have somehow been fooled or threatened into compliance. A more rational explanation is that they recognize GWB has correctly taken aggressive action against very real threats. It’s not so very complicated, like you.
The reasonable and prudent modifications to domestic crime fighting laws have been upheld as constitutional on appeal. The patriot act is meant at it’s core to PRESERVE our rights and freedoms by enabling law enforcement to identify individuals intent on depriving us of those rights and freedoms, one being our right not to get blown up.
As for your fear of book burnings and censorship, look to the left. No one dare attempt an accurate portrayal of the history of this nation lest their words be sanitized or stricken from the text books. No one dare mention the word GOD in a public setting lest they violate that mythical and magically constitutional “separation of church and state”. No conservative dare speak at a college campus lest they be shouted down and pelted with rotten fruit. Clarence Thomas dare not show his face in public lest he be ridiculed for having the idiotic idea that affirmative action should someday expire, or that the most vulnerable among us should be offered some protection.
Actually, I think your fears are feigned. They provide a convenient excuse to be nasty and negative.
Mynah Byrd
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 11, 2003 at 6:12 AM Excrepts from 1984, the book. seems somewhat relevant. It is scary to think such a thing will ever happen, but if things go on like the way they are going now, maybe it will ...
“A Party member is expected to have no private emotions and no respites from enthusiasm. He is supposed to live in a continuous frenzy of hatred of foreign enemies and internal traitors, triumph over victories, and selfabasement before the power and wisdom of the Party. The discontents produced by his bare, unsatisfying
life are deliberately turned outwards and dissipated by such devices as the Two Minutes Hate, and the speculations which might possibly induce a sceptical or rebellious attitude are killed in advance by his early acquired inner discipline. The
first and simplest stage in the discipline, which can be taught even to young children, is called, in Newspeak, crimestop. Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of
misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity. But stupidity is
not enough. On the contrary, orthodoxy in the full sense demands a control over one’s own mental processes as complete as that of a contortionist over his body. Oceanic society rests ultimately on the belief that Big Brother is omnipotent and
that the Party is infallible. But since in reality Big Brother is not omnipotent and the party is not infallible, there is need for an unwearying, moment-to-moment flexibility in the treatment of facts. The keyword here is blackwhite.Like so many Newspeak words, this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in
contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which
really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink.”continued ....
Posted by oumer on May 11, 2003 at 9:37 AM “All past oligarchies have fallen from power either because they ossified or because they grew soft. Either they became stupid and arrogant, failed to adjust themselves to changing circumstances, and were overthrown; or they became liberal and cowardly, made concessions when they should have used force, and once again
were overthrown. They fell, that is to say, either through consciousness or through unconsciousness. It is the achievement of the Party to have produced a system of thought in which both conditions can exist simultaneously. And upon no other
intellectual basis could the dominion of the Party be made permanent. If one is to rule, and to continue ruling, one must be able to dislocate the sense of reality. For
the secret of rulership is to combine a belief in one’s own infallibility with the
Power to learn from past mistakes.”
....
Posted by oumer on May 11, 2003 at 9:40 AM “Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation. Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing. Do you begin to
see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery is torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow
not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress towards more pain. The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love or justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self- abasement. Everything else we shall destroy everything. Already we are breaking down the habits of thought which have survived from before the Revolution. We have cut the links between child and parent, and between man and man, and between man and woman. No one dares
trust a wife or a child or a friend any longer. But in the future there will be no wives and no friends. Children will be taken from their mothers at birth, as one takes eggs from a hen. The sex instinct will be eradicated. Procreation will be an annual
formality like the renewal of a ration card. We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty towards the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no
art, no literature, no science. When we are omnipotent we shall have no more need of science. There will be no distinction between beauty and ugliness. There will be
no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always—do not forget this, Winston—always there will be the
intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler.
Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever”
Posted by oumer on May 11, 2003 at 9:40 AM Keep on either insisting on living in denial or trying to persuade others that you know what’s really going on. By the way, why insult an intelligent, beneficent bird by adapting your name to it’s as a cognomen. It tells me something. Like the parrot, that bird tends to mimic and ape whatever speaks, you too seem to be some sort of parrot for the corporate psychotics much like their selected puppets in the White House. Is it mere coincidence that brought you here to ostensibly add your own worn out, much trumpeted opinions onto a relatively insignificant arena such as this? I see, leave no independent voice unsullied. Go tell it to O’reilly or the thousands of others who spew your brand of crapulous, supposedly rational inanities 24/7/12. Leave at least one place for people who aren’t completely brainwashed and blinded by the fascist media’s sadistic glitz for opinions they NEVER air unless it were for purposes of ridicule that can’t be defended by anyone espousing a non-conformist view. I will copy your comments and let my friends read them when the great dyslexic dictator steals the next election. Maybe you’ll re-read them yourself and come up with some more ridiculous pablum to make yourself and other obsequious goose-steppers try to seem palpable.
Posted by Dom on May 12, 2003 at 1:05 AM I thought that what Michael Moore said at the Oscars was a wonderful thing. If he hadn’t said it someone else would have, infact other people did. Millions, including myself, protested for the same cause as MM spoke about at the Oscars, and if that makes us dumb or wrong so be it. Maybe it is time for people to start thinking about other people rather than themselves, Bush’s war for oil killed a lot of people but maybe MM’s words in the future will ring true in Bush’s ears and he won’t make the same mistake twice
Posted by Kirsten on May 12, 2003 at 2:46 AM dom
the world is a big place. Why don’t you leave the US? You obviously hate it & the rest of us are sick of hearing you whine.
Posted by neil on May 12, 2003 at 3:49 AM Neil, if enough people like yourself, weaned and brainwashed by the non-reality of the kiss ass media would go live in some dictatorship more to YOUR liking, perhaps we could start to work on some solutions here to get this country to live up to it’s mythologies. I suppose the Indigenous people were not victims of genocide and that slavery is a non-issue to you. There was no Imperealist war against Spain, World War One made the world free for Democracy, there was no depression, Pearl Harbor was a complete surprise, the Korean War was a big success, the McCarthy era didn’t ruin thousands of lives, President Kennedy was not assassinated by those whose ideological descendants now rule, the loss in Vietnam caused the domino effect that was predicted and used, along with the Gulf of Tonkin incident to force two million poor young Americans to learn the glory of killing or being killed, Watergate was just a frame-up and a trumped up little incident that the liberals used to get Nixon out, that the Iran-Contra scandal was justified because a few patriotic types knew better than all of Congress and the American people what was good for it so laws had to be broken for the flag. There is no racial tension, millions of hard working families can’t make ends meet because BIG government is no good unless the BIGGEST part of it comes out of our paychecks and goes directly into military spending, that Bush II really did win that 2000 election, and on and on. Keep watching TV and pretending that what you see there is just exactly what you have to deal with daily. Yeah, you’re a good candidate for dictatorship-loving, so YOU get out. Most of us who can call a spade a spade don’t need you morons clogging up the works with your fantasies about reality TV and believing 9/11 had nothing to do with everything that happened in it’s aftermath. And we can believe that because, well, because YOUR commander in chief doesn’t think you should be able to decide for yourself so he wants to keep documents relating to it from seeing the light of day. YOU get out because you have no idea what Democracy means anyway so go and live under the rule of some of the despotic puppets we’ve placed in power or support-there you’ll find life more to your liking because as long as you follow the leader without disobeying orders, you too can be a big man.
Posted by Dom on May 12, 2003 at 4:25 AM No! YOU get out! hahahahahaha!
what a sad life you must lead. bet your neighbors hate you!There must be some way out of here said the joker to the thief!
Posted by neil on May 12, 2003 at 4:39 AM I think that neil is unable to think
a perfect american the way Bush want them to be, obeying idiots that do not question, the 1st ingredient of democray in american sauce
Posted by fabio on May 12, 2003 at 7:31 AM dear myna, even if the possession of guns would bring flowers to my home every day, I would’nt like weapons to circulate in anycase , I read through all the critics to bowling in the link you provided but I am very far from being conviced that the free circulation of weapon is a good thing.
as far as foreign politics is concerned even if all that’s said in bowling is a bullshit, I have had enough with the USA ingerence in the italian political life as fron 1945 to 1989 (at least) and believe me it’s a whole lot of shit
you can argue the figures as much as you like, but what counts really are the ideas behind it
Posted by fabio on May 12, 2003 at 3:41 PM Poor old Dom. In addition to having a rage problem, he has to cope with this fascist government trying to screw him any way it can. And he already has his hands full atoning for the sins of the white man, bemoaning the plight of the downtrodden, and generally feeling good about himself for being such a crusader. I urge you all to quit picking on him; he probably cries himself to sleep every night. Dom, I’m here for you if you need a friend.
Posted by Tom on May 14, 2003 at 4:22 AM What would Dom do if he were in charge? What initiatives would president Mastroserio propose? Does he have any specific and practical ideas to put America back on a proper course?
How would he provide government services to millions of non-producers without crippling the free market that provides the revenue for those services. How would he keep the engines that power that free market (the one that provides the revenue for the services) topped off with fuel without offending Arab sensibilities?
How would he propose to make high school graduates able to find their state on a map or to construct a readable sentence without violating the teachers union’s comfort zone? How would he persuade them to reconsider their opposition to accountability?
How would he pay for health care for millions that firmly believe it to be an entitlement? How would he keep that entitlement from devouring more and more of the budget pie, eroding the quality of care and discouraging innovation?
How would he propose to persuade Muslim fanatics not to carry out their suicide missions on innocent people? What would he offer that could trump 70 virgins? Would he mandate conversion to Islam? Would he offer the citizens of Israel land in the U.S. so they could relocate enabling Palestinians to move back to their “homeland” and finally be happy? Would that satisfy the Jihadist’s demands?
I wonder if he has any workable solutions to the world’s problems. Or would he simply issue forth large text blocks proclaiming what’s wrong with everything and leave it to others to figure out how to make it right.
Does he have anything positive to offer? Or would he endeavor to become the first person in history to achieve anything meaningful simply by being negative?
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 14, 2003 at 5:48 AM I think that myna is missing the simplest replys to the simplest questions
where to find the funds for health? cutting down “defense expenses” for instance (the only time you were attacked your billion dollars army was completely useless), how to cut the fuel expenses? discouraging the use of the 5000+ engines on your useless giant cars, saving gas and decreasing pollution
regarding israel, it would be enough if they leave the occupied territories, avoiding subjecting palestinians to humiliating controls at the borders that they open and close according to Sharon’s headache
where is the progress in medicine when the 1st cause of death in the world (malaria) do not receive any attention from the research because the ones that get that disease are not able to pay medicine therefore deserve to die?
the solutions are out of the door but if you do not open it ...
if you keep on being egoistic and proft oriented you’ll not improve anything
Posted by fabio on May 14, 2003 at 7:32 AM Fabio, shut up or I’m going to have to send Ethiopia to deal with your country again.
Posted by Bill on May 14, 2003 at 1:54 PM what about taxing heavily the millionaires? sounds too communist? it might be, but nevertheless rightful
Posted by fabio on May 14, 2003 at 1:54 PM fortunately mussolini is not around anymore, therefore no need to call the ethipians in right now, dear bill.
but if a big huge ethiopian would come here and fuck mr berlusconi in the ass(italian prime minister) I’d be delighted to pay the air trip
Posted by fabio on May 14, 2003 at 2:04 PM to love a country does not necessarily mean to love its present or past leaders
Posted by fabio on May 14, 2003 at 3:51 PM Thanks Fabio that’s really insightful. Did you come up with that theory all by yourself? Please enlighten us with more of your brilliant perceptions.
Posted by Tom on May 14, 2003 at 9:59 PM Robin Williamsí plan…
I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for peace. So, hereís one plan:
1) The US will apologize to the world for our ìinterferenceî in their affairs, past & present. We will promise never to ìinterfereî again.
2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They donít want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in the fence.
3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. Weíll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.
4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 day visits unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you donít like it there, change it yourself, donít hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We donít need any more cab drivers.
5) No ìstudentsî over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they donít attend classes, they get a ìDî and itís back home, baby.
6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.
7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they donít like it, we go someplace else.
8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not ìinterfereî. They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most of what we give them gets ìlostî or is taken by their army. The people who need it most get very little, anyway.
9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We donít need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.
9b) Use the buildings as replacement for the twin towers.
10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us ìUgly Americansî any longer.
Now, ainít that a winner of a plan.
ìThe Statue of Liberty is no longer saying ëGive me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.í Sheís got a baseball bat and sheís yelling, ëYou want a piece of me?íî - Robin
Posted by kandra on May 15, 2003 at 2:05 AM tom, another brilliant perception is about your future carreer in a circus, do not see clearly anyhow if you’ll be the clown (too difficult) or the dancing monkey (you know how to dance?) keep me updated about it
Posted by fabio on May 15, 2003 at 7:38 AM neil sorry for stealing your glue, I can see you are now on a crisis, but if you do not know where to carry your monkey, pass by tom’s house, two monekeys are better than one
Posted by fabio on May 15, 2003 at 10:20 AM I was glad to hear this morning that a Belgian lawyer denounced General Franks for war crimes, it brings to my mind when Pinochet (ex chile dictator put on by USA - wheren’t americans supposed to remove dictators?) was prosecuted by a spanish judge
Posted by fabio on May 15, 2003 at 10:48 AM Oh no, Belgian lawyers are bad-mouthing us. I guess this war really was a bad idea. Even though it looks like Iraq was producing the banned weapons he repeatedly threatened to loose on Americans, we should have cleared it with the Belgian legal community before we did anything. We’re screwed.
Posted by Tom on May 15, 2003 at 3:29 PM It would be awfully rude of me to comment on politics in America.
But one thing tat’s pretty clear..
Fear comes about because people dont’ understand or choose to be in denial in order to protect themselves, their ego, ...
Because people cannot tolerate such differences be it its racial and cultural background.
The animation in MM’s movie summed it all. Its a vicious cycle of human nature to destroy ourselves.
...Where is the sanity?
Posted by Justin on May 15, 2003 at 8:19 PM fabio,
I sense progress. You read. You read about how Michael Moore tries to make you think things about America that are not true. About how he faked the incident at the bank. About how he plays fast and loose with time and context to make you think that the NRA is unsympathetic or even complicit in school shootings. How he tries to portray the NRA as in bed with racist organizations when in reality the exact opposite is true.
He has done a grave disservice to America by mischaracterizing her to people who want to believe the worst about her.
No I’m really not arguing figures here. I’m arguing ideas. I’m arguing that people coming out of the theatre after seeing BFC have gotten some ridiculous wrong ideas about America.
I think there’s a basic lack of education in Europe about America and the brilliance of it’s founding. The right to bear arms is part of our constitution. It insures our freedom in the most basic of ways. If not FOR guns, we would not BE free and neither would millions in Europe and elsewhere.
There is no “free circulation” of guns in America. There are thousands of restrictions that unfortunately criminals do not respect. In states where qualified citizens are allowed to carry guns, people are much safer. Crime, including mass shootings has dropped by overwhelming percentages in such states. Colorado was considering just such a law before Columbine. They would do well to take it back up, but they’re probably intimidated by truth hijackers like Michael Moore.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 15, 2003 at 9:37 PM fabio,
I see you have some ideas on how to improve the world. I respect what you have put forth. Better than some who offer only bitterness. I must however challenge your notion that profit is a dirty word.
America spends a relatively small percentage of its GNP on defense. Most goes to social entitlements. Defense spending should be increased and the rest of the world should wish it to be increased. Because there can be no health where there is no stability. And because America is quite simply the only benevolent world power in the history of the planet. If anybody spends anything on defense, you better hope it is the U.S. (now I suppose you’ll interpret that as egotistic. No, just simple unassailable facts.)
You are correct that we should try to be more fuel-efficient. However, our free market has produced much improved efficiencies and the means to reverse air pollution. Despite the sky is falling crowd, the air in the U.S. is becoming cleaner by the year. Free market countries (not just the U.S.) are on the brink of developing non or barely polluting automobiles. Technology and incentive based free markets are the ONLY way this world will reach sustainable and universally good standards of living.
The Arab irrationals will not be satisfied until all the Jews are pushed into the sea. I think even then they will not be satisfied. I think their JOB is to be unsatisfied.
Where is the progress in medicine? My goodness. We’ve come a long way since bloodletting and the way sure hasn’t been led by communists, fascists, dictators or Monarchs. Rather by people free to invent, innovate, and PROFIT. (sorry about that dirty word)
To be sure there is reluctance to give away products that have cost millions to develop and produce. But without a profit motivation, those products would not even exist.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 15, 2003 at 9:38 PM be smart, marry a nice french girl and become part of the e.u. before this melting pot burns us all!!
Posted by ken cook on May 16, 2003 at 12:03 AM it didn’t take mr Moore to let us know how things are going in the USA, I’ve been there several times for months, as from 1990 and last time it was september 2002, therefore I already had my own opinion about it much earlier than BFC.
The matter of fact is that you consider yourself as deserving more than anybody else, I know you are working hard for that, but to surpass all the others is not what progress is all about , to safeguard yourself means that you think you have enemies, my goal is not to have enemies and I achieve that with awareness, knowledge, patience, tolerance and goodwill, not by threatening anybody who’s different.when millions dies for malaria, or tubercolosis where the fuck is the medical progress? because you can heal movie stars in million dollars hospital it does not seem to me you are bringing medical progress
where is the advantage of carrying a weapon? that I can threaten somebody else who’s coming up with another weapon, ok, but ewhat if nobody had a weapon? and if my neighbour owns a rifle shall I own a bazooka to feel safer?
your constitution is 300 years old, it’s time to revise it, it might have been good then, now it’s time for a changefurthermore I really do not feel comfortable about USA owing weapons of mass destruction, what’s bad for one is bad for all
Posted by fabio on May 16, 2003 at 7:52 AM there is no such thing as patriotism, just blindness.your government, america inc, is trying to take over the world through blackmail. anyone who disagrees is just blind sawell support micheal miire
Posted by daivi fitzgerald on May 16, 2003 at 9:17 AM >> 1) The US will apologize to the world for our ?interference? in their affairs, past & present. >> We will promise never to ?interfere? again.
Remove the quotations out of the above sentence, and I completely agree!!>>2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea >>and the Philippines. They don?t want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No >>more sneaking through holes in the fence.
What a wonderful world it would be!
>>3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We?ll give them a
>>free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, >>>regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.
That is your internal policy, do as you please.>>4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 day visits unless given a
>>special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don?t like it there,
>>change it yourself, don?t hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don?t >>need any more cab drivers.
No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in- So are you going to expel two hundred million Americans? Also, America’s big advantage over europe is the constant flow of immigrants, who will soon end up become productive and tax paying residents (whether they are driving cabs, or building super computers ...). If you just look at Europe right now, the people are so old, the birth rate and the immigration inflow is very small. If they don’t do something quite soon, they are gonna face a very big problem in a couple of decades. To begin with america is, as we know it, is founded by immigrants, and it become the most powerful country by attracting immigrants, be them cab drivers or noble prize winners, from all over the world.
Posted by oumer on May 16, 2003 at 11:00 AM >>5) No ?students? over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don?t attend classes,
>>they get a ?D? and it?s back home, baby.
If you just have the time, check the websites of the top universities (specially in technolgy) such as MIT, stanford, CMU, berkley .... You will see that the best professors and students are mostly foreigners, from india, china, pakistan, iran, europe, russia, arab countries ... The main reason why american become so much advanced in technolgy is the good environment that it offered for foreign students to enroll into US universities and keeping them after they finish. Change this situation, and you will see the effect in a couple of decades.>6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy wise.
A very exacting task, but hope at least you will try. But nice idea!>7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don?t >like it, we go someplace else.
Saudi have the largest oil reserves in the world, and they have the power to turn the price upside down, so when it comes to oil they should be respected. Oh sorry, I forgot, now US have control over the second largest reserve. Yup you are right, maybe you can afford to do so to some extent>8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not ?interfere?. They
>can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides,
>most of what we give them gets ?lost? or is taken by their army. The people who need it most >get very little, anyway.
The people who need it will not get it, nice observation. but one thing you forgot is that almost no money is given for free when it comes to government aid. Most of the aid is given as a loan with staggering interests.>9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don?t need the spies and fair
>weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal
>aliens.
The UN was like america’s dog for half a century, wagging its tail when it comes to america’s interest. Now, just for once, it didn’t jump to pick the frisbee you threw, and you want it destroyed. What a way to treat a pet!
Posted by oumer on May 16, 2003 at 11:01 AM >10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us ?Ugly
>Americans? any longer.
Not charm and beauty school, but fitness schools, as US is the fattest country in the world :-))
>>?The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying ?Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled
>>masses.? She?s got a baseball bat and she?s yelling, ?You want a piece of me??? - RobinSince you hate the French so much now, why not return the statue of liberty?
Posted by oumer on May 16, 2003 at 11:02 AM mynah I do not think you are bad, I just think that you are too deeply rooted in the american misunderstanding, cannot say brainwashed because you grew up like that , had not been changed at one stage, just grew that way
but owing to that you are missing all the other points of view, who have the same weight as yours of course but certainly not less, even those of the arabs, critics should help to improve, not convice to isolate and go on and on like a tank
diplomacy should be there to interpret anyone thoughts and mediate trhough all of them to reach a solution
underestimating critics is a very immature behaviour which seems to have become the US national habit (governmentwise)
that has to change if you do not want to become an “island”
for instance, US leading role as a superpower is something that you only have called for, the rest of the world do not agree at all, so please open your ears and hearth instead of blindly keeping on fighting windmills in the name of the fucking dollar
Posted by fabio on May 16, 2003 at 12:46 PM Signs of fascism
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/28944.html
Posted by oumer on May 16, 2003 at 3:42 PM There are many ways through which our Country would be able to realize it’s own mythology about being a Democracy, (which it never fully ever was), but measures such as repeal of the income tax, repeal of the laws which somehow legitimized corporations as, “persons”, without the responsibilities or accountabilities of actual citizens would be a good start. If you wish to find a model of how a free marketplace should be run, it was written about two and a half centuries ago by someone we all remember from school history lessons, Adam Smith. Of course, the executives and top management officials of all the major world corporate players would first have to be arrested, tried by a jury of American citizens and put away for crimes ranging from RICOH act violations to mass murder. The next step would be to allow only those candidates who did not accept money from any special interest groups to run for office. A maximum cap of $5.00 per individual as a contribution would suffice. Along with that measure, candidates from ALL parties would be forced to hold at least five debates speaking only about specific issues and their specific plans for implimenting them. Only citizens chosen at random instead of the media would be enabled to ask questions of the candidates about their own criticisms of the issues brought forth. Once elected into office, if the elected official did not begin to impliment EVERY promise he’d made at ANY of the debates, he would be immediately impeached and the runner up in the election would be given his turn, and so forth until one of the runners up actually began to effectuate his voiced policies. Since this process would naturally create a, “power vacuum”, while the changes were being made, the citizenry would learn how unecessary elected officials were because they themselves would have to take the responsibilites necessary to govern. Your fears about National Defense are unfounded because whatever high tech war machinery and military personnel existing within society would be more than able to ensure the protection of our homeland without the interference of indifferent generals or avaricious politicians in bed with their corporate sponsors. Instead of, and here I’ll quote and ancient sage, Claudian, as regards the present leadership: “He strikes all things because he fears all things”.
Posted by Dom Mastroserio on May 16, 2003 at 5:56 PM There are many ways through which our Country would be able to realize it’s own mythology about being a Democracy, (which it never fully ever was), but measures such as repeal of the income tax, repeal of the laws which somehow legitimized corporations as, “persons”, without the responsibilities or accountabilities of actual citizens would be a good start. If you wish to find a model of how a free marketplace should be run, it was written about two and a half centuries ago by someone we all remember from school history lessons, Adam Smith. Of course, the executives and top management officials of all the major world corporate players would first have to be arrested, tried by a jury of American citizens and put away for crimes ranging from RICOH act violations to mass murder. The next step would be to allow only those candidates who did not accept money from any special interest groups to run for office. A maximum cap of $5.00 per individual as a contribution would suffice. Along with that measure, candidates from ALL parties would be forced to hold at least five debates speaking only about specific issues and their specific plans for implimenting them. Only citizens chosen at random instead of the media would be enabled to ask questions of the candidates about their own criticisms of the issues brought forth. Once elected into office, if the elected official did not begin to impliment EVERY promise he’d made at ANY of the debates, he would be immediately impeached and the runner up in the election would be given his turn, and so forth until one of the runners up actually began to effectuate his voiced policies. Since this process would naturally create a, “power vacuum”, while the changes were being made, the citizenry would learn how unecessary elected officials were because they themselves would have to take the responsibilites necessary to govern. Your fears about National Defense are unfounded because whatever high tech war machinery and military personnel existing within society would be more than able to ensure the protection of our homeland without the interference of indifferent generals or avaricious politicians in bed with their corporate sponsors. Instead of, and here I’ll quote and ancient sage, Claudian, as regards the present leadership: “He strikes all things because he fears all things”.
Posted by Dom Mastroserio on May 16, 2003 at 5:56 PM Finally somebody had the balls to say the truth outloud. Bush and his clique of dirty politicians should all be judged by history, for this war and all their petty lies. It makes me sick to see how many naive, TV brainwashed americans are buying this crap about weapons of mass destruction, evil Saddham and the bulshit about bringing democracy to Iraqi people. Ha, ha !
Posted by Daniel on May 17, 2003 at 12:58 AM micheal moore is an amazing person who is not afraid to tell the truth about our country. it’s unfortunate that so many people are still not ready to learn.
Posted by Nikki on May 17, 2003 at 11:19 AM Dom wrote:
>There are many ways through which our Country would be able to realize it’s own mythology about being a Democracy>
Except that this country is not a democracy and was never meant to be. An overused word that doesnít accurately describe our system of government. We are a representative republic. The framers loathed democracy, and trusted it only to elect our representatives.
>If you wish to find a model of how a free marketplace should be run, it was written about two and a half centuries ago by someone we all remember from school history lessons, Adam Smith.>
I share your admiration for Adam Smith. All should follow his model of ethical economics. I hope you donít confuse my advocacy of free markets with the condoning of corporate shenanigans. The speculative bubble of the late 90ís was a phantom prosperity. Not one that Smith would have admired:
http://www.vanguard.com/bogle_site/sp20020612a.html
Your ideas on impeachment are interesting, but too close to democracy, which is just a nice word for mob rule. For instance, some fools would like to do away with the Electoral College. In that case, everything would be decided by a bunch of city folks who know nothing about what really makes this country work. ìAbout the loggerís wretched chainsaw. It scares the animals and makes a lot of smelly smoke. I say we ban ëem! All in favor?î A silly illustration, but you get the point. The fact that a state doesnít have huge population centers doesnít take away from itís importance to the health and security of the nation.
>the citizenry would learn how unecessary elected officials were because they themselves would have to take the responsibilites necessary to govern.>
Gee, I think you may be a closet republican!
>I’ll quote and ancient sage, Claudian, as regards the present leadership: “He strikes all things because he fears all things”.>
Just had to get your little zing in there, didencha? :)
Gratefully, a positive (I think), hopeful (sort of) post by Dom. We are cheering here in Anytown. A breath of semi-fresh air.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 17, 2003 at 6:39 PM it just cant get out off my head that 9/11 wasn’t just a simple terrorist attack(wasn’t Hitler the one who burned the reichstag to blame the juwisch?and gave him the right to act as he did? wasn’t nero the one who burned rome to blame the christians?hystori is in all this years repeating it is just us people who don’t want to see it.Everytime i am listening to what these failed human of president has to say it gives me the chills.He sounds to me like a dictador,who really wants to convince the american people and the rest of the world that he and only one nation of this world is godblessed and the only ones who suffer,so they have the right to kill other peoples children wiwes husbands sisters and brothers.?shame on him and everyone who supports him
Posted by peter on May 17, 2003 at 10:44 PM it just cant get out off my head that 9/11 wasn’t just a simple terrorist attack(wasn’t Hitler the one who burned the reichstag to blame the juwisch?and gave him the right to act as he did? wasn’t nero the one who burned rome to blame the christians?hystori is in all this years repeating it is just us people who don’t want to see it.Everytime i am listening to what these failed human of president has to say it gives me the chills.He sounds to me like a dictador,who really wants to convince the american people and the rest of the world that he and only one nation of this world is godblessed and the only ones who suffer,so they have the right to kill other peoples children wiwes husbands sisters and brothers.?shame on him and everyone who supports him
Posted by peter on May 17, 2003 at 10:47 PM why is everyone so stirred up about mike expressing his opinion i feel the same way attack me you slaves
Posted by jon on May 17, 2003 at 11:17 PM Jon,
Why are you so stirred up about people expressing their opinion about Michael Moore? Are we supposed to just sit there and say….duh…..kewl…..to what anybody says? Do you think freedom of speech means immunity from criticism?
We’re not stirred up about him simply expressing his opinion. We’re stirred up because he is misrepresenting reality to the world.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 18, 2003 at 1:02 AM I find it interesting that everyone against Moore has nothing more intelligent or persuasiveto say other than hes an anti american fat bastard. Dont you people see? You are the problem! You dont think! Your arguments arent arguments, they’re simply aggressive words matching the intellect of a 12 year old who bullies all the kids younger than him. If your gonna say the man is stupid, at least attempt to PROVE it. Thats your problem! As soon as you can string together a sentence that has any meaning and doesnt just prove you lust for greed and violence, maybe people like moor will keep their mouths shut. Its up to you, gun totin americans, to prove you have a right to hold your weapon and take the lives of the innocent. At least give us that much, ya jerks.
Posted by john on May 19, 2003 at 5:33 AM Anyone and everyone has the right to make up their own minds and to critisise or praise Michael Moore. This is free speech. Those who rersort to mindless abuse and accuse MM of being fascist or Marxist clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Do you think his free speech, or your free speech would have been tolerated in Maoist China, Mugabe’s Zimbabwe, Hitler’s Germany or Stalinist Russia? Michael Moore is a true American hero in my opinion, an asset to the United States who should be respected for his right to express his views, whether you agree with them or not.
Posted by Steve on May 19, 2003 at 11:04 AM Peter, you are a fucking idiot if you really believe Bush was behind the Spet. 11th terrorist attacks. And how, exactly, is Bush a dictator? That’s a common accusation among you leftists, but I have yet to hear one bit of evidence to support the contention.
Posted by Tom on May 19, 2003 at 2:16 PM you are right tom, bush is not a dictator, he’s a stupid puppet in the hands of the real dictators
Posted by fabio on May 19, 2003 at 2:45 PM John in front of his computer wrote:
> has nothing more intelligent or persuasiveto say other than hes an anti american fat bastard.>
While this may be true, I personally have never used it as an argument against Moore. That would be about as moronic as most of the pro-Moore posts here chanting “go michael, you speak the truth, man. The rest of you can go fuck yourselves.” That’s about as deep as it gets on the pro-Moore side.
My argument against him has always been that what he has presented to the public in his books and “documentaries” has been fraudulent. He wins best documentary at the Oscars for a piece that misrepresents history from beginning to end. According to the academy’s own rules, a documentary is required to be factual. Many people are calling on them to revoke the Oscar.
Rule Twelve
Special Rules for The Documentary Awards
I. Definition
1. An eligible documentary film is defined as a theatrically released non-fiction motion picture dealing creatively with cultural, artistic, historical, social, scientific, economic or other subjects. It may be photographed in actual occurrence, or may employ partial re-enactment, stock footage, stills, animation, stop-motion or other techniques, as long as the emphasis is on fact and not on fiction. http://www.oscars.org/75academyawards/rules/rule12.htmlIt’s simply not fair to anyone, especially your OWN SIDE to use lies and tricks to advance your agenda.
So anyway, my PROOF: http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
We gun-totin Americans certainly do have a right to hold a weapon. It’s called the second amendment to the constitution. Comes right after the first amendment which gives Moore the right to lie and me the right to call him on it. As for the right to take innocent lives, your concern would be better directed at all the communist and dictatorial regimes in the world past and present that have been responsible for between 150 and 200 MILLION murders in the 20th century alone. PROOF: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 19, 2003 at 4:42 PM see? This is all I ask for! Now were getting somewhere! Thanks Minah for actually taking the time to put forth an argument that is completely reasonable. I have read Stupid white men, and while I believe his point on the whole is something we should all agree on, there are some gross generalizations from beginning to end. For this, you are right, but its up to us to understand the true point and come to a conclusion ourselves. Also, (not that im right or whutever) why cant the left ever offer a decent solution to our problems? Complain, complain, complain, thats all everyone evr does.
Posted by john on May 19, 2003 at 9:21 PM Actually, just read your statement again…you’ll never convince me that the right to hold a gun is a good thing.
Posted by john on May 19, 2003 at 9:25 PM Of course the founding fathers, (brothers?), never intended this to be a democracy. However, since those who represent us have become mere instruments of those who we euphemistically name, capitalists, thus usurping any voice the people were guaranteed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights through a sort of economic end around representative DEMOCRACY…one must conclude the experiment they undertook to bequeath to posterity has been co-opted from the beginning. Yes, by the framers themselves who indeed had to pretend that only comprimise with Slave states could have enabled ratification of that peice of chicanery known as the Constitution. It was a bad start, anyone with any sense knew it had no chance of self-realization; that every generation had to fight to correct whatever egregious omission it claimed for those who it benefited by it presumptively. And by fighting for each inclusion, divisions and backlashes arose which played marvelously into the hands of the financiers who cared only that no one get in the way of an ascendency of their own limited and plutocratic agendas. So now we are ruled not by statesmen or prines but by bribery. What we enjoy now is a very limited representative form of government and for anyone to disbelieve that these corporate outlaws would NOT do ANYTHING to consolidate and fix their clandestine rule is surely living in a fool’s paradise. It has never worked the way it’s been imagined that it should. It cannot, under present laws, EVER attain the mythological promises some fantasize. To then take a leap of logic which, by referring to Democracy as, “mob rule”, merely attempts to pre-demonize it’s potential if one realizes that such a form of governance has NEVER been attempted. It also reveals a paranoia about risk-taking which, if the aforementioned capitalists had believed about their own gambits… would not have enthroned them as our de facto hidden rulers. (Cont.)
Posted by Dom on May 20, 2003 at 2:41 AM Excuse me, the word seen as, “prines”, is a typo. I meant to write: princes. Take a good look at the confusion and obfuscation, fear-mongering and ridicule endemic in even so inocuous an arena as this. Or, look into any home undetected: discord. No one is free of evil or good. And, so we also each carry our own deaths at birth. Humanity will always be foundering- full of vice and virtue. Judgements will never be impartial. To live is a struggle to understand or abrogation of life, existing in a walking death. All that has been dreamed must be realized. That’s a law of nature no human wishes to acknowledge. It’s frightening to realize just how susceptible to unforseeable cosmic ineffability we are; how subject to also to another’s moment to moment fluxations of the soul. The world, then, not being reliably comprehensible must either continue to adhere to obviously inapplicable, inept modes of disintigrating, downward spiraling institutions and governments leading to one horrific, ineluctable end…or…untested, untried but reasonably efficacious forms with probably good and all-inclusive integral configurations must be risked. Decmocracy based on equitable laws and fueled by limited and well-regulated economic structures is one of those. It is not that Democracy is mob rule but that Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, etc. all tend to undermine ANY form of government that does not demand their accountablity for failures. When you equate Democracy with mob rule all you are really saying is you want crime off the streets and in the halls of government and corporations instead. You prefer certain tyranny to possible anarchy. That is not the choice when a Democracy without strong central authority is attempted. Eventually, I believe that the redistribution of populations into fields of self-sufficiencies will enable humans to come to terms with nature. There will be much struggle: for nature is both savage AND fecundating. That is also our condition though we are a nature that contemplates itself. Given sufficient time, each individual will become what they are innately: Nature is also self-regulating and completely interdependent. Our problem is that we’ve strayed so far from her that we now assume we are supa-natural. That is a disease of the ego which can only be rectified by re-educating ouselves as naturally indispensible entities inseperable from her totality.
Posted by Dom on May 20, 2003 at 3:39 AM “We gun-totin Americans certainly do have a right to hold a weapon. It’s called the second amendment to the constitution.”
what the fuck you have to do with these weapons? are you oing buffalo hunting? are there the indians assaulting your caravans?
I know down there it’s full of criminals but what the cops are there for? if you do not trust them, change them, update your police in any way you deem right, but the far west times are passed for good, move your mind forward, no more general custer, no more davy crockett, no more billy the kid, and then you claim you are a modern society, and you stick to 300 years old constitution? that’s good for the freedom of speech that never killed anybody (the opposite killed too many) but stop this gun craze, it’s stupid stupid stupid
Posted by fabio on May 20, 2003 at 10:59 AM if you are so much profit oriented, spend the money of your magnum 44 on an insurance that will refund any robbery you may suffer, if you give the money to the thiefs usually they do not shoot you, cover your ass with insurance
yesterday they had a robbery in a tobacco shop in milan, the owner shoot 1 thief in the shop and followed the other one in the street and killed him, now he is charged with murder and it is right, because what kind of defense is that? it’s murder, and to prevent what? a loss of money! 1 life lost, another one in danger in the hospital for may be 1000 euros and a guy in jail just because he had the bright idea of having a gun under the desk
3 families destroyed. we can understand that the shop owner had not enough cold blood to manage the situation and overreacted, and that’s why cops are there, they are trained and payed for that
(then we could start arguing about how fascist cops are down here but that’s another story….)
Posted by fabio on May 20, 2003 at 12:33 PM The most important thing about someone like Mr Moore is not whether his views are right or wrong (though I happen to agree with him) but that he inspires people to THINK about things for a change, rather than just believing what they are told.
Those who disagree with Moore, why don’t you find some evidence to support your viewpoint (real evidence) and then maybe you all won’t come across as idiots who haven’t got a clue, and can only ridicule Moore for being overweight rather than wrong.
Posted by Becky on May 20, 2003 at 2:05 PM yes i agree it is a shame that bush is launching a ficticous war. and i am sick of american media telling people how to live. and i am sick of ignorant remarks heard around my highschool classrooms by my classmates that have been subjected to american media.
yes american media is beginning to make its way into to canada. it has negatively effected my life and those around me. i’m am a concerned canadian citizen who is concerned about the influence of media in canada as well as foreign countries.
and i also think its a shame that canadian politicians who speak about a moronic bush. are losing there just because the american media ridicules them. saying they’re up there with saddam.
its all nonsense to me.
although im not american i can see that america is not free. the government through the media gives the illusion that the u.s.a. is the land of the free. when really it isn’t. as Mr. Moore has presented there is still rascism, ignorance. and repression. the american people are in fact enslaved by the corporates and the government. and i urge americans as a sympathetic canadian to act out. do something. it must stop
Posted by robert on May 20, 2003 at 9:38 PM we read on newspapers today that USA is threatened by terrible terrorist attacks
how is it possible now that Afghanistan is under their control and Iraq as well? is it possible that it was not the right way to gain safety? looks like pentagon experts went a bit wrong
Posted by fabio on May 21, 2003 at 11:07 AM quoting Mynah
>As for the right to take innocent lives, your concern would be better directed at all the communist and dictatorial regimes in the world past and present that have been responsible for between 150 and 200 MILLION murders in the 20th century alone. PROOF: http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
The list was surprising indeed, as I expected to see america somewhere near the top of the list (thinking of US’s attrocities in japan, vietnam, korea, germany, yugoslavia, iraq, afghanistan, nicaragua, .....). So I tried to read the chapter that deals with American democide (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP13.HTM and the table that summarized the numbers http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB13.1.GIF)
. And I was surprised even more. Why?Because in this table, it states only 47,000 as the toll in vietnam!! This is a joke! Millions died in the vietnam war, millions of children, woman and innocent farmers. Please read these two books by William Blum and open your eyes!
1.Rogue State: A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower
(here you will see how america can easily be “the” mega murderer if you also add up the “indirect” killings”)
website with some excrepts
http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/books/RogueState.html2. Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA
Interventions Since World War II
website with some excrepts(and other interesting articles/links)
http://www.killinghope.org/In the mean time I will try to reread that webpage you suggested, maybe I will be surprised even one more time….
Posted by oumer on May 21, 2003 at 12:09 PM I respect Mr. Moore for saying what he said at the oscars. Not many have the balls to do so. Well why be afraid when your speaking the truth.
Posted by Tamil Selvam on May 21, 2003 at 6:58 PM I am happy to read and understand why so many have been outraged by what Michael Moore said. It saddens me that so many don’t read and study subjects before commenting on them. I completely agree with Mr. Moore and I am glad someone had the intergrity to show our nation and how we as citizenzs have been brainwashed by the media to believe anything that is good for public consumption. Trust me “I CAN HANDLE THE TRUTH”!!and wish we could be told it about ou government and thier actions.
Posted by Candace on May 21, 2003 at 8:35 PM
Oumer,The 47,000 figure you saw was referring only to U.S. casualties in Vietnam. Look here for another figureÖÖ estimates from 1.3 to 4 million deaths. Line 261:
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB6.1A.GIF
The author does not try to hide or minimize death caused by the U.S. It is thoroughly addressed here:
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP13.HTM
The authorís point is not that the U.S. has never caused civilian deaths, but that those deaths are miniscule compared to the staggering number murdered INTENTIONALLY by totalitarian governments seeking power.There has surely been a price paid in innocent lives taken during wars involving America. But how many HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS more would have died if we had simply stayed home, barricaded our borders and let Germany, Japan, Russia and others have their way with the rest of the world? Would the world be on its current trend toward democracy, or would perhaps the opposite be true?
A little advice when trying to discern the reliability of information on the internet or anywhere, for that matter. Look at the home page of ìpowerkillsî. The author is clearly identified, has a biography, has written dozens of peer-reviewed books and papers, and gives an email address. He even lets you know where he works. In other words, he is accountable for what he puts out. If he put out a bunch of bogus numbers, he would be pilloried by his peers. His puts his reputation on the line. He cites a variety of sources and gives a low, middle and high estimate.
ìFreespeechî has none of these characteristics. No accountability. No way to contact the author (whoever it is) of the website and rebut his ridiculous contention that American troops are nothing but baby-killers. He risks nothing. Just a sick anti-Semite spewing forth unsubstantiated bullshit. Itís disinformation. Itís dangerous. Itís worthless.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 22, 2003 at 9:15 AM Would the world be on its current trend toward democracy?
I do not think the world is going toward democracy, mostly towards capitalism for sure, but democracy…. just look at yourself for instance, or China, the most populated country, is turning to capitalism without democracy, we have problems in europe as well regarding democracy
the current trend is “profit no matter what”
Posted by fabio on May 22, 2003 at 10:40 AM From an editorial by Steve Chapman:
The 18th-century English writer Samuel Johnson believed “there are few ways in which a man can be more innocently employed than in getting money.” More common, particularly outside the Western world, is the biblical notion that the love of money is the root of all evil—an adage that makes America’s centers of commerce, such as the World Trade Center, look like a pit of iniquity.
It isn’t the love of money, though, that has spawned the great crimes of humanity’s past and present: religious war, ethnic hatred, violent fanaticism, mass slaughter of innocents. The worship of power poses a much greater threat to civilized values than grubby acquisitiveness ever did.
But our achievements, being geared to the needs and wishes of ordinary people, often seem obnoxiously mundane. Europe’s blood-soaked kings and popes gave us palaces and cathedrals that inspire awe across the centuries. Pharaohs built majestic pyramids with the sweat of slaves. And what does our economic system erect? Disney World, McDonald’s and Hollywood. Those institutions exist for only one reason: the free choices of large numbers of people.
Freedom and openness are the most conspicuous and admirable features of our society, but they infuriate those intent on exerting control over their fellow man. To them, nothing can be more dangerous than letting people think for themselves.
It was bad enough when democratic freedom prevailed on our shores. But today, it is the aspiration of billions of people around the world. Tyrants and terrorists see our way of life as a mortal threat to everything they hold dear. To our credit, it is.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 22, 2003 at 4:19 PM Micheal Moore the vicious drunk (even when sober)...LIED!
He “doctored” the facts in his films..
He “doctored” timelines, in his films.
He doctored different film clips to make different statements to seem
to be consecutive, and thereby used peoples own words to lie, to
say what they never said, and never meant, and did so, to make money off of the misery of others, and to propagandize (lie) in promotion of his socialist goals…
even tough “Micheal Moore the Common man” lives in a NY penthouse suite, and rides around in Limos…Micheal Moore is a liar and a hypocrite, and he has been caught repeatedly doing both.
Only dirt for brains, gullible fools, admire him, or believe *anything* he says…or “films” in his
DocuLiaries.
Posted by Hari Seldon on May 22, 2003 at 7:02 PM to myna
the wrong in all this is that only a small part of the worls has achived your disputable goals, it’s not that the people that do not agree with you are mindless, they are hopeless in the sense that they have no food , no water, no medcines, no hospitals and so on…. I think they’d rather have these basic needs satisfied rather than go to disneyworld
keep on thinking about your fun at las vegas, until somebody blast your ass
Posted by fabio on May 23, 2003 at 7:20 AM PsstÖ.Hari,
You have to be very careful about how you talk about Michael Moore here. Calling him a vicious drunk is definitely not acceptable. Coming right out and calling him a liar is way too harsh. They are very sensitive here.
Iíve had success with phrases like ìhe plays fast and loose with the truthî or ìhe disrupts the fabric of historyî or ìhe is misrepresenting reality to the world.î
You might also try linking to one of the websites that have documented his lies. Duoh!! I mean misrepresentations.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 23, 2003 at 7:54 AM fabio wrote:
to myna
the wrong in all this is that only a small part of the worls has achived your disputable goals, it’s not that the people that do not agree with you are mindless, they are hopeless in the sense that they have no food , no water, no medcines, no hospitals and so on…. I think they’d rather have these basic needs satisfied rather than go to disneyworld
keep on thinking about your fun at las vegas, until somebody blast your ass
The only people Iím calling mindless are those who refuse to recognize that capitalism and democracy have consistently proven to be potent antidotes to genocide, hunger, poverty, and despair. Instead of lamenting the fact that much of the world is not driving Mercedes, why donít you advocate for the one economic system that has the very real potential for making that a reality? If not that, then surely at least a modern water system or two.Why do you think those people donít have food, water, medicine or hospitals? Itís because they are governed by a few jackals that rip the bulk from their grasp and leave them with only crumbs. The jackals prefer to build monuments or defense of themselves rather than waste money on the useless ìpeopleî. They refuse to unleash the power of their people to participate in their economic well being. Better to keep the focus on America or Israel. They are the reason we had to build that last palace and couldnít afford to install a filter and run a pipe from that lake.
This is why America TRIES to encourage democracy. In some extreme cases, forces it.
Capitalism begets democracy and democracy begets capitalism. Both are synonymous with freedom. Neither are dirty words. You owe the fact that you are able to communicate to the world from the comfort of your computer chair to little geek capitalists puttering in their garage - free to innovate and invent and profit. Just because Bill Gates and Steve Jobs nurtured their ideas into multi-billion dollar corporations that employ thousands directly and millions more indirectly hardly makes them evil. In my book, it makes them Saints. Didnít Gates recently give some odd billions to help people without food, water, medicine or hospitals? Probably all got stolen by the jackals.
How about blasting their ass?
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 23, 2003 at 9:13 AM you call them jackals I call them corporations, the governors of the 3rd/4th world countries are corrupted by the corporations, that’s it, profit kills
we could have comfortable offices even if del monte would pay the right price for what they force poor countries to grow
try to eat coffee instead of steaks
the parallel between democracy and capitalism is a blasfemyand anycase you are blasting many asses, how come that the world is not improving at all? (except for the USA may be but I really do not care for the wealth of the wealthy)
Posted by fabio on May 23, 2003 at 11:12 AM Hi,
we are germans and we know how easy and pleasent it is to follow a strong, imperialistic and charasmatic (in 1933 not today) leader.
He was able to murder millios of people because “we” were blinded by propaganda and too stupid to throw him out.
It is nessecary that people like Michael Moore tell the people the truth and show them how to react when their leaders make their own decisions without the controll of Democracy (also worldwide “UN”).
Posted by Sebi on May 23, 2003 at 2:20 PM Praise Michael Moore! I think what he did and what he does is not only brave but keeps Peace and Truth alive! If you disagree with him then your not looking out for the well being of the “people”, furthermore your extreemly ignorant!
Posted by Unity on May 23, 2003 at 4:44 PM Fabio wrote:
>you call them jackals I call them corporations, the governors of the 3rd/4th world countries are corrupted by the corporations, that’s it, profit kills
we could have comfortable offices even if del monte would pay the right price for what they force poor countries to grow
try to eat coffee instead of steaks
the parallel between democracy and capitalism is a blasfemyand anycase you are blasting many asses, how come that the world is not improving at all? (except for the USA may be but I really do not care for the wealth of the wealthy)>
Why are you blaming corporations and not the governors? Corporations are just groups of people organized in such a way to maximize profit. If governors are not selfish thugs, they use corporations to improve the quality of life for all. Your anger is misplaced.Corporations are in business for only one reason. To make a profit. The best way to do that is to please as many people as possible. If governors make it possible for them to do that then everybody wins.
What you talk about in the 3rd and 4th world countries is not democracy or capitalism. It is thugocracy. Exactly what we need to defeat.
The reason any country is not improving itself is that their leaders for whatever reason, out of selfishness, fear or ignorance refuse to follow principles that empower the people and recognize that all are created equal. That refusal, not corporations is where your anger should be directed.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 23, 2003 at 4:45 PM Maximize profit, you say? Ala Enron I would presume? Problem is…these jackals don’t play by the rules…or is that not part of your capitalistic philosophy? It’s profits, profits, profits…at whose expense. [tell your story to the Enron employees who’ve lost their pensions, Miss!]
Posted by lenats on May 23, 2003 at 6:00 PM Everyone who is touting Michael Moore for defending truth is just supporting my theory that leftists, in general, only beleive what they want to believe. Are you just ignoring the countless posts on this message board that expose his lies? Moore’s reputation for dishonesty is nothing new, so I suggest you set aside your hatred for Bush just long enough to realize that Moore is not credible. And Sebi, we don’t need to be shown how to act when leaders make decisions without the consent of an international debating club, thank you very much. Also, you sound like an idiot when you compare Bush to Hitler.
Posted by Tom on May 23, 2003 at 7:13 PM Mynah,
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. but still I tried to look at the table even more , and at the bottom (table 13.1) there is an average estimate of 69,000 (line 243). Also in table 6.1A, line 261 is the sum of lines 50, 211 and 258. For example, line 50 refers to 1945-54 and that was committed by France, and the others also are not that clear. I have to admit that I have to look at the tables one more time, but there is something phony about them, or maybe I am trying to hard to find an error. but I will check, I will surely take my time, and check all the tablesAbout the sources I mentioned, they are just websites for two books, which you can buy
from Amazon “Rogue states ..” and “Killing Hope”, so they are authentic sources. Gave you the website so that you could read a chapter or two before buying the books or borrowing them from the library.So I will do my homework with the tables, you do with the books, and maybe then we will have a more sensible conversation ...
Posted by oumer on May 23, 2003 at 11:51 PM im a soldier in the united states army and i know if we did not go into iraq and rid that country of saddam and his evil rule he would have used weapons of mass destuction against us or supplied a terrorist with them, and when that happened all you anti-war/anti-bush democrats would be saying “bush knew he had those weapons, why didnt he do something to stop him”
Posted by tim on May 24, 2003 at 2:45 AM Tim said
i know if we did not go into iraq and rid that country of saddam and his evil rule he would have used weapons of mass destuction against us or supplied a terrorist with them, and when that happened all you anti-war/anti-bush democrats would be saying “bush knew he had those weapons, why didnt he do something to stop him”First of all, no weapons of mass destruction have been found yet, and it doesn’t seem to be. Some high officials in US and UK are saying even without the WMDs, because you have “liberated” the people from the tyranny of saddam. Sadam hussien was a treat for his people and the region in the 80s and early 90s (before the gulf war) when america and the west was constantly supplying him weapons (including biological and chemical ones) (ever heard of companies like Union Carbide, Honeywell, Dupont, SpectraPhysics, Bechtel ??) because they wanted him to destroy the islamist regime in iran and ofcourse they want to make many out of the weapons. US knew about sadam’s attrocities, his use of chemical weapons against the kurds in the late eightees but said nothing. Now more than a decade later, after the sanctions you imposed on the people increased the death toll of the iraqi people by as much as a million, you are telling us your “discovery” of his mass graves, and how cruel he was to his people, chemical Ali, Doctor Germ, bla bla. Sadam is an ignorant, murderous bastard, and the world knew it since the early 80s, don’t try to tell it to us as a news. But when after a decade of sanctions, he was so powerless, that you were able to take on such a big country in such a short time. That only is enough to prove that he was no threat to the US.
Posted by Oumer on May 24, 2003 at 9:32 AM Reading the hate mail moore receives only convinces me that he is on the right track.
Keep going Michael, you are far from an idiot and you give a voice to the honest citizens of our world.
Posted by Brett on May 24, 2003 at 2:08 PM lenats on 5.23.03 @1:00 pm wrote from NY:
>Maximize profit, you say? Ala Enron I would presume? Problem is…these jackals don’t play by the rules…or is that not part of your capitalistic philosophy? It’s profits, profits, profits…at whose expense. [tell your story to the Enron employees who’ve lost their pensions, Miss!]>
To which I respond thus:
Tell a story to the alter boy who was raped by a priest. Tell a story to the black man who was roughed up by a white cop. Tell a story to the child who was beaten for spilling his milk. Tell a story to the taxpayer who sees 70% of his contribution eaten up by bureaucracy.
Thereís bad apples in every tree but not so common as is portrayed on the evening news. Most priests, policemen and parents have nothing but the best of intentions toward those that depend on them. Even the federal government, whose waste and mismanagement makes Enron look like Mr. Clean, has for the most part good intentions. And MOST corporations are honest and strive to play by the rules, evidenced by billions spent on lawyers to ensure that they do.
When a few of those inevitable bad apples corrupted Enron, what was the result? The marketplace spoke and Enronís worth was reduced to worthless. (I know, just like the pensions)
My point about corporations, capitalism and democracy is not that theyíre perfect, but that theyíre head and shoulders above the alternatives. When these institutions are combined with ethics, as they are for the MOST part in the United States, the result is a system that has proven itself superior to any other in terms of being fair, self-correcting and efficient. Playing by the rules is an integral part of my philosophy, as it is of almost any successful entity.
I find it fascinating that so many can find so much wrong with a world that has come so far in such a short time. In a geologic millisecond, mankind has evolved from tribal massacres to discussing their differences from opposite sides of the globe in real time. People everywhere today have a better chance of being free from tyranny, poverty and racism than ever before. For those that have helped shape this reality, I have admiration. For those that have fought against it, I have none.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 25, 2003 at 10:30 AM Michael Moore is unlike most Americans a person with a realistic view! He knows about the history of most countries in the world. He’s not been made blind, as manny Americans are, by the media terror. Amerika isn’t the best country in the world..I’ts a nice country, but you still have a lot to learn!!! No more guns, no more fear!
Posted by nynke on May 25, 2003 at 11:51 AM Just because a FEW people claim the war is ‘illegal’ doesn’t make it so. Protestors must feel proud to protect a dictator who has killed more Arabs than anyone in history. Mass graves are being uncovered all over Iraq, an you want to defend him? Children were starving to death while the dictator was hiding UNICEF food in his bunkers. No medicine for the sick but he had billions of dollars hidden all over Iraq. Defend the dictator all you want. The Iraqi people are free and will soon enjoy life as they have never dreamed. That is what I defend…
As for moore, his film was a lie! It was not a documentary, it was a bald-faced lie! He capitalized on the deaths of innocent children and proved once and for all that the liberal point of view cannot stand without lies.
Until Oscar night, I always thought you could put any man in a TUX and he would look great. Moore proved that if you put a pile of crap in a tux, it looks like a pile of crap in a fancy wraper…
Posted by Guy Fox on May 25, 2003 at 12:20 PM Maybe next year’s oscar for documentary will go to this. Dying to see it!! Considering that most of the people involved in the movie are jews and/or americans, I believe that the movie has solid credibility.
Posted by oumer on May 26, 2003 at 8:40 PM Cheers to Michale Moore for realizing that we, as a nation, have problems that sit below what the general public sees on the surface. It’s time that the American people really educate themselves, and that doesn’t mean watch a couple hours of Fox News each day and call it even.
Please, give reality a chance. It’s time that we take to the streets, make our voices heard, and get George W. out of office. If you’re looking for a change of Regime, a good place to start would be Washington D.C.
Posted by Jon on May 27, 2003 at 2:38 AM A Short Primer on Mideast History
A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don’t get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don’t thank me. I’m a giver. Here we go:The Palestinians want their own country. There’s just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It’s a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like “Wiccan,” “Palestinian” sounds ancient but is really a modern invention.
Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no “Palestinians” then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no “Palestinians” then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the “Palestinians,” weeping for their deep bond with their lost “land” and “nation.”
So for the sake of honesty, let’s not use the word “Palestinian” any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they’re being taped. Instead, let’s call them what they are: “Other Arabs From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death.” I know that’s a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: “Adjacent Jew-Haters.”
Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don’t. They could have had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That’s no fun.
No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews; of course that’s where the real fun is—but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel—or “The Zionist Entity” as their textbooks call it—for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they’re the blue ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God’s Earth.
ContinuedÖÖ
Posted by Play Jurist on May 27, 2003 at 4:23 AM -
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