On day five of the war, it was supremely ironic that network television viewers had to tune into the 75th Annual Academy Awards ceremony to hear voices that questioned the wisdom of the Bush administration. Rumblings of protest began on Saturday. At the Independent Spirit Awards (the award ceremony for independent films) in Santa Monica, California, Maggie Gyllenhaal, the star of… return to article
-
subscribe to print magazine
-
email this article to a friend
-
Reader Comments (2170)ContinuingÖÖ
It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I’m missing something, the Arabs haven’t given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.
Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals.
Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.
Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.
No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.
Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand it’s in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can’t be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of super models who’ve just had their drugs taken away. However, in any big picture strategy, there’s always a danger of losing moral weight. We’ve already lost some.
After September 11, our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them.
Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.
If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan.
Radical Islam is an insane death-cult, and “moderate” Islam is its Trojan Horse.
Posted by Play Jurist on May 27, 2003 at 4:24 AM myna myna…. why can’t you see farthest than your nose?? political power and corporations made in USA has made every effort in order to steal the advantages from the 3rd/4th world countries and bring them to their pockets in the USA and in Switzerland, you are the corruptor that do not care about anything but the money, and it’s easy for you to gain the favour of the governors because they are men and thus corruptible
you are making the world a much worst place to live in and even call that democracy, shame on you, blind and ignorant, pointless and with a brain the size of a peaand to the soldier just came back, how many WMD have you seized?
the only seized things seems to be oil pits which will make it easier for you to pollute the world at a much cheaper price with your fucking suvs that you use to go grocery shopping
Posted by fabio on May 27, 2003 at 7:39 AM not counting that after the war eneded there have been much more terrorist attacks than ever, so, can you still say that this war was useful? no WMD found, Saddam still at large (and Osama too), many more terrorist attacks, I can see that things were much better before and that all the billions flooded into the war could have been used for much better reasons in order to really bring wealth to the oriental countries rather than destroying them and claim their oil to build them back
Posted by fabio on May 27, 2003 at 12:15 PM Mynah wrote:
>Why are you blaming corporations and not the governors? Corporations are just groups of people organized in such a way to maximize profit. <Snip> Corporations are in business for only one reason. To make a profit.>
To make a profit for whom? Their shareholders? You must be kidding. Every corporation Iíve worked with in the past fifteen years was/is basically run by a handful of officers and directors. Those individuals were and are the primary profiteers. And when those corporations go belly up, who suffers? Not those who have been in control, just the unwitting shareholders and lower level employees.
This is a fair analysis of corporate America.
http://www.ariannaonline.com/books/pigs_intro.html
“What we have in this country is socialism for the rich and free enterprise for the poor.”
ñGore VidalHereís a good remedy for corporate America.
Posted by linda z on May 27, 2003 at 6:57 PM Kandra writes:>>>Just curious as to where YOUR family ties have been through all this>>>
Iím assuming you mean where MAH family ties have been through the Civil War? I guess you must be tryiní to figger out if Iím a damn Yankee through and through? Iím not, but letís see if we can agree on some common ground here. Most scientific research indicates that mankindís origins are from Africa, so how about we both agree that we are BOTH descended from apes in Africa. Iíve been a fixiní on getting together a Have A Banana Society. Wanna join?
>>>& just wondering why you are STILL living in the US if you hate it so much?>>>
Because the sheer comedy of having political debates with undereducated bigots is such a thrill?
Posted by linda z on May 27, 2003 at 7:39 PM <Because the sheer comedy of having political debates with undereducated bigots is such a thrill?>
I know EXACTLY how you feel.
Posted by kandra on May 28, 2003 at 2:48 PM Is it not weird that these pampered spoiled rich hollywood assholes embrace the philosophy of communism, while poor white trash like myself are the ones who willingly go to war to protect the lives and freedoms of our fellow men. If this country is ever invaded, the idiots in hollywood will be bowing to the invaders while poor country folk like us grab our rifles and fight.
Posted by Jeremy Gibson on May 28, 2003 at 3:05 PM In response to Andrew from Lawrence Kansas…..........did you know that in August 1864, 800 “rednecks” from Missouri rode into Lawrence at the crack of dawn and slaughtered nearly every male in town. This was possible because at that time just like today, Lawrence was full of liberals who did not have the balls to defend themselves. It is recorded in historical documents that the women of Lawrence did fight back a little but the yellow men cowered and fled but were shot as they ran. I suspect you are yellow and jelly spined as well.
Posted by Jeremy Gibson on May 28, 2003 at 3:21 PM compliments Jeremy, a real old school american boy! there are still some native americans around, do you feel like fighting again?
Posted by fabio on May 28, 2003 at 3:56 PM whenever you feel jeely in the spine, stick your rifle in your ass, you’ll become harder for sure
Posted by fabio on May 28, 2003 at 4:02 PM For your information Fabio, if that is your real name, I grew up dirt poor in a 4 room shack in rural Missouri. My mother worked as a cashier at Mcdonalds for $3.15 an hour. I’ll bet a million bucks your daddy pays your bills. Do I sound angry…..sure I am. I’m angry for growing up poor and having to work my ass off for what I have while kids like you have mommy and daddy to pay for your college. I am now 32 years old and a physician. I think my hard work payed off. I would say my anger as a poor white kid is no different than the anger of poor native americans, blacks or any other minority. Yet I will never embrace communism as a legitimate philosophy. Do you even know what kind of totalitarian regimes were run by the likes of Stalin? millions were put to death for dissent. I bet you would love a world communist state wouldn’t you Fabio.
Posted by Jeremy Gibson on May 28, 2003 at 4:48 PM To Bill Robinson,et.al.: If G.W.B. is a right turn Adolph Hitler must make you cream your pants! Yes, I know-9/11 was nothing like the Reichstag fire and you are just obeying orders.
Posted by Dwight Boness on May 28, 2003 at 7:55 PM Jeremy Gibson wrote:
I’m angry for growing up poor and having to work my ass off for what I have while kids like you have mommy and daddy to pay for your college. I am now 32 years old and a physician. I think my hard work payed off.
Perhaps you might consider a refresher or continuing education course in grammar and spelling?
Posted by Shack Child too on May 29, 2003 at 3:04 AM yes jeremy fabio is my real name and I am 32 as well
I left mummy’s home at 24 after a hard (but not too much) life because my dad died in 1978 and we had to live on a fucking pension scheme me mom and bro.
as soon as I got a regular job I left home with a 750 USD wage and begun to live with my present girfriend
groqing up I had the chance to know the values of cooperation and solidariety, the hep to the helpless and social justice
communism is a dram never achieved (may be not achieavable) whilst stalinism was only a nightmare of a dicatorship which has very few to do with communism apart the flag may beso my dad who died in 1978 is not in the position to pay my taxes, I am paying my own home and working hard everyday
does it take to be a fascist to work hard? do not think so, you do not have the exclusive over the problems (unfortunately) thereofre please before talking think twice or askmuslims blacks natives and so on have the same rights as you to complain if they want
if you do not like communism just do not vote for them but be sure that this would not stop wise people thinking at the common benefits rather than to the single prosperity
keep up your good job at the nazi american party
Posted by fabio on May 29, 2003 at 7:15 AM Hi Linda,
Thought youíd left us. Weíve moved on from talking about Americaís first black president to how corporations are the root of all evil in the world. Apparently you agree?
Not all the tyrannical regimes in the world that have intentionally killed some 170 million people in the 20th century alone? Not Saddam Hussein who killed, raped, and tortured more Muslims than anyone and ordered the death of his own grandchildren? Not France and Germany and fabio who tried their very best to keep him in power so they could continue to profit from him? (except that fabio doesnít like profit so there must have been some other reason we can only wonder)
No, corporations are the evil ones. The bastards have the nerve to employ millions of people and expect them to work for their pay. The stinking scum develop and produce products that force us to be comfortable. And the most diabolical plot ever, to compete against each other and cause the prices of computers, TVs, VCRs, washing machines, (not cars), tools, clothes, and furniture to fall while at the same time making them better and longer lasting. They are obviously out to control the world by making us so happy, so comfortable, so soft, that when they one day cut off the flow of stuff to us, we will beg them to resume shipments and pay any price to make it so.
End pg. 1
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 29, 2003 at 10:29 AM Pg. 2
Youíre right, there have been some corporate abuses. But some people are bad, and corporations are composed of people so there you go. The key word here is people. People control what they produce, how they organize, what they pay employees and what they want their public image to be. Not the secret police or the ministry of profit control.
Most of the jobs in this country are provided by small business. Some of those businesses become larger and form corporations. Some corporations are composed of only one person, or two, or two hundred. But theyíre just people. Free people. Just a bunch of free people trying to do nothing more sinister than please you, the customer. And if someone gets rich in the process, guess what? Thereís more money available to lend to you or me or fabio to start our own business, commune, or even an evil corporation.
You are free to go to work in a commune style organization. You are free to start one. You are free to advocate for them. There ARE such organizations even here in the U.S. Thereís room for all and who knows? Maybe someday that will be the hot model. Itís up to us, the people.
Howís this for a deal? Iíll consider Ariannaís analysis fair as soon as she and all her Hollywood hypocrite friends give up their mansions, private jets, and limousines.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 29, 2003 at 10:31 AM so it is right that some countris produces only banans or cocoa or coffee and that few big corporations dictate the prices and oblige the farmers to get what they want to give them? do you think that the items produced now are longer lasting than the older ones? really? open your eyes, any consumer item is designed to last very short time so that the “smart” consumer will have to buy another one soon, a newr and more useless one
you are tricked every second of your life by those guys: the new cell phone that transmit images, ohh, how useful everybody should have one, and the SUVs too, why driving a small car when you can pollute more and kill the few ones that ride bikes motorbiks or compact cars (may be even electric cars - what a shame)
how nice is that nestlË promotes the powder milk in africa, where ther is no drinkable water to mix it with and where the anticorps provided by nother milk are much needed, mother’s milk will enrich none but the childrens, we have to enrich the richest of course
Posted by fabio on May 29, 2003 at 10:53 AM I have a regular lifestyle with 1000 USD per month, cannot see any reason why somebody should earn let’s say more than 10.000 USD per months (and there are so many earning millions per month!)
I’d give the difference to the ones earning less than 1000 until everybody should have at least the same fucking opportunity to enjoy life without starving or being homeless and stuff
am I so bad?
Posted by fabio on May 29, 2003 at 11:00 AM it is an exaggertaion of the concept but nevertheless capital must be taxed and the taxes must be employed in social upgrades, not the fucking missiles
the more you are powerful the most you are hated, the most you must have missiles and the most you are hated….....it’s neverending
Posted by fabio on May 29, 2003 at 11:02 AM It is apparent that Fabio hates anyone who had the will & motivation to get off their ass & bust their ass to make a good living & afford nice things.
Jealousy is the TRUE ROOT OF EVIL.
Posted by Lee on May 29, 2003 at 1:20 PM it is not jealousy, if fact I would not like any advantage for me, I want the poor of the world to reach an higher level even if this may cost to the weterners a decreas in their lifestyle, I’d renounce myself to whatever is necessary, step up who is willing to do the same, I am not jelaous you are egoistic
I give away my used clothes, I give canned food to the homeless in the streets, I give money for orphans in the 3rd world, I support a group of mental ill people, I marched for peace, I boycott corporations, I do a lot for the things I believe in , not just sit in front of the home theather to watch the last stupid american comedy that makes minds even more empty that they already are
I am not jealous of your fat ass, I just say that money would be better employed for useful things that save lives, not that destroy same or just make fun of it
Posted by fabio on May 29, 2003 at 1:27 PM thinking to be the only one entitled to wealth is the true root of evil
Posted by fabio on May 29, 2003 at 1:30 PM and then americans also claim to be religious…. if being religious is watching the stupid shows on the tv with false priest begging for money for their villas and yacht…. religion, christian in particular, is about helping the people, do you know Jesus? he was helping the unlucky, the poors, the homeless and thaught his apostoles to do the same, being christian is all about that, not for sure about capitalism, profit and egoism, the 3 basis of the american society
Posted by fabio on May 29, 2003 at 1:40 PM Thank you, Fabio. We would all be lost without you. You deserve a medal for all the wonderful things you have done like giving away your used clothes, marching for peace, and spending all you time on this website telling us how to run our country.
Posted by Tom on May 29, 2003 at 2:12 PM you are welcome tom and if you need more tips for your life do not hesitate to ask, it’s free and it makes me feel good to help people like you to see the light
I hope I could have more time to spend improving your knowledge but the hard work calls me therefore for today you’ll have no other wisdom from my side, will you survive?
Posted by fabio on May 29, 2003 at 2:31 PM <I give away my used clothes, I give canned food to the homeless in the streets, I give money for orphans in the 3rd world, I support a group of mental ill people, I marched for peace, I boycott corporations, I do a lot for the things I believe in , not just sit in front of the home theather to watch the last stupid american comedy that makes minds even more empty that they already are>
You act as if you’re the only one who ever gave anything to anyone. NEWSFLASH!!! I don’t know anyone who DOESN’T give to charity!!!
And for one who doesn’t sit back on his fat ass & watch the tube you sure know alot about our culture… Well, you think you do but really you’re just a jealous little prick who is mad because you weren’t born American.
Deal with it.
Posted by Lee on May 29, 2003 at 2:37 PM I haven’t visited this site in about 8 weeks, and not much has changed.
Dom from Long Island is still clinically insane. Thank God I live 2000 miles away from that freak of nature.
Mynah Byrd deserves the Medal of Honor for putting her best foot forward in trying to argue will all of you hateful, negative, and flat-out incorrect liberals who can only find your voices by preaching to your own choir on sites like this.
Linda Z from New York - the Martians have landed on Earth with video documentation that President Bush caused the 9/11 attacks!! There are 18 bazillion websites that substantiate it!! Go check ‘em out!!
And Fabio - I think I have had enough of you. Have you ever seen “The Battle of San Pietro?” Like MM’s untruthuful garbage “Bowling for Columbine,” it also won the Adacemy Award for Best Documentary - in 1944. It is the story about the 143rd Infantry Regiment of the 36th Infantry Division of the United States Army, who lost 1,000 of their men in the space of four weeks trying to dislodge your friendly German neighbors from the small Italian town of San Pietro, population 800. The camera pans inches away from the faces of dead American boys being placed in their canvas burial shrouds. They died for YOU, fool. In fact, over 35,000 (that’s THIRTY FIVE THOUSAND) Americans died saving your country in World War Two. They died for no other reason than that. Without those precious American boys, you would pounding rocks in a death camp, if you would have even been born at all. You’re welcome. You understand nothing of my country and what my country is willing to sacrifice for filth like you. So take your unintelligent, unenlightened, incorrect criticisms of my country and go straight to Hell. Your opinions and thoughts are not worth at least one American life. If everybody in Italy is like you, then those 35,000 American boys died for NOTHING!!
Mynah, I honestly don’t know how you have put up will all the crap on this site for the last 2 months - you are stronger than me.
Awaiting the invetitable barrage from the happy and content people of this world…..type away to your heart’s content…..maybe I’ll check out your gems of wisdom in another 8 weeks…..
Posted by Tom on May 29, 2003 at 3:05 PM Mynah:>>> To think that someone who volunteered at 17 to fight the Nazi’s is somehow friendly with them or their flaks doesn’t fit. It doesn’t pass the common sense test.>>>
Washington Jewish Week and other media outlets discovered that the Bush campaign harbored well known neo-Nazis, including Jerome Brentar, a holocaust revisionist who claims that the Nazis never deliberately gassed victims of the Holocaust, and Akselis Mangulis, who was involved in the SS-influenced Latvian Legion during World War II. George W. Bush, the campaign’s hatchet man, fired the Nazis slowly, so as to hide “under the radar” of the media. After the election, four of these came back to work for the Republican Party according to USA Today. Are you disputing these FACTS?
>>>And 43 has totally lost the Nazi vote.>>>
He may have lost the Nazi vote, but he thought nothing of catering to pro-Confederacy groups and campaigning at Bob Jones University, which prohibited interracial dating. For example, the United Daughters of the Confederacy is more than just a historical preservationist group that erects statues to honor the Southern secession. They have worked with and have honored the pro-Klan, white-supremacist scholar Michael A. Grissom. Bush praised it for its dedication to others and high standards. Oh, and letís not forget his right hand man; John Ashcroftís comments in Southern Partisan magazine where he told them, ìYour magazine helps set the record straightî.
Here are some quotes from the magazine:
The statements included claims that David Duke represented the “American ideal”; that slave-owners were concerned about the “peace and happiness” of slave families; that ethnic groups from outside of Northern Europe “have no temperament for democracy”; and that only “Italians, Jews and Puerto Ricans” live in New York, not “Americans.”
http://www.fair.org/press-releases/southern-partisan.html
(continued)
Posted by linda z on May 29, 2003 at 3:14 PM (continued)
>>>OK, but can you imagine the screams coming from the left if suppose the Panhandle had been mostly democratic and FOXNEWS had made erroneous statements about poll closing times? Or if Bush’s projected wins in other states had been announced right away and Gores projected wins had been delayed? There would have been shrieks of disenfranchisement and racism. Why the double standard?>>>
Double standard? Yeah, right. Instead Fox News declared Bush a winner in Florida before any of the other networks. The truth of the matter was that when Fox declared Bush the winner, Gore was actually ahead. Who was the man in charge of Foxís election coverage? John Ellis, the first cousin of George W. and Jeb Bush.
The reply to the rest of your post will have to come later, when I’ve had a chance to analyze the lengthy dissent of the two members of the USCCR.
Posted by linda z on May 29, 2003 at 3:15 PM I am definitely happy I wasn’t born there man, now I am not the no. 1 enemy of all the other countries, I am not scared by erverything like you are, I feel safe at home, I definitely feel good.
what you miss about me is that I am happy, I just would like to see more happy people around, not less
Posted by fabio on May 29, 2003 at 3:26 PM and tom, almost 40% of italians think americans are at least stupid if not worst, why do you have to think you are all heroes? modesty is something to ne learnt
Posted by fabio on May 29, 2003 at 3:33 PM Reading through Michael Moore’s site sent a chill down my spine. The inference of subversive government and media - and especially the reference to the admininstration of the Soviet Union, in particular. The insidious maladministration at the heart of US government, the electoral process and media misrepresentation are evident. That this evil is practised by the most powerful country in the world is simply terrifying and wholly unworthy of the majority of the American people.
Posted by Maggie Sample on May 29, 2003 at 3:40 PM and lee, giving to charity is one thing, going in the streets and meet the homeless, sharing the food with them and let them feel human is much better than dialing on the phone your credit card number,
talking with the people and listen to them to their story, that’s way different than giving to charity, do you know so many that do that?
Posted by fabio on May 29, 2003 at 3:54 PM furthermore battle of san pietro could be avoided, and the inhabitants were not advised in time in order to escape the bombing and died there, now they want to recover the place and make it a monument in remember of course of the amricans but most of all of the poor victims bombed down too fast that could be saved
Posted by fabio on May 29, 2003 at 3:56 PM Fabio,
you are making assumptions about people without even knowing them. What makes you think that I am not out there as well doing charity work, volunteering my time to help others.
We don’t all live like the Hollywood jet set & I get sick & tired of these so called stars sitting in their mansions drinking champagne & telling the world how “Americans” feel. And now you with all your anti-American BS like you are the AUTHORITY on MY life.
BEEEEP!!! WROOOONG!!!
You don’t know crap about it!
Posted by Lee on May 29, 2003 at 4:43 PM Let me get this straight. Terrorism is bad, it is a no no, which is
why we have the war on terror.Hmmmmmmmmm, now reading this article I am lost
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/ITeamInsider.html#Iran
“The Pentagon’s proposal includes using all available points of pressure on the Iranian regime, including backing armed Iranian dissidents and employing the services of the Mujahedeen e Khalq, a group currently branded as terrorist by the United States.”
Posted by Why Can't We All Get Along? on May 29, 2003 at 11:31 PM well done micheal your entitled to speak out about what you believe and where better than the oscars
Posted by frances clements on May 30, 2003 at 3:14 AM Freedom starts off messy:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003562
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 30, 2003 at 10:00 AM A man who thought Wales was a a city is the most powerful person in the world. Who says we don’t we live in interesting times?
Posted by Tejas Shankar on May 30, 2003 at 11:26 AM Fabio, Mynah, Lee, ..... you are becoming super boring. Instead of boiling all the time and saying rubbish such as “I do charity, you don’t” why don’t you take your time to post something meaningful that we could learn from?
Posted by oumer on May 30, 2003 at 12:26 PM Great story! I very much support ALL the people who were against this war and would like to see California pass the State resolution against the Patriot Act.
Posted by Amy Vukovic on May 30, 2003 at 3:15 PM Actually, I was getting ready to ask oumer not to post boring passages from 1984 and a lot of bullshit propaganda hate links but then I thought:
That would be really rude when someone’s just trying to express their point of view in whatever way works for them and who am I to say what’s boring and what’s not and what’s propaganda and what’s not and what’s meaningful and what’s not. In fact, it’d almost be like trying to shut down debate by saying: “I don’t like the way you’re debating” Then he would just come back and say: “Well I don’t like the way you’re debating” So what value, really?
So I decided not to ask him.
Then I changed my mind.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on May 30, 2003 at 4:24 PM I received an email from someone regarding my posts here. I actually havent posted on this site in months, it took some time to track it down again. But, I felt the correspondece with this person was worth nothing, so I have included it below:
subj: reg. your post about Michael Moore
“What does God have to to with anything?” you said? etc.. Ok…...you’re about to find out, the hard way. And pay attention to dreams that you WILL be getting, judgements coming.
my response:
I’m assuming you believe in god regarding the subject of your email. I do not wish to offend you, but would like to say one thing. Why is it that you expect me to believe what you do? How is that any different than me assuming that you SHOULD believe what I believe, and if you dont that you are wrong? How can you be so sure your right, if you assume your beliefs are right and anyone who does not agree when them are wrong? Try to think about the logic of this, and you may start to realize it makes no sense whatsover. I find those who are convinced that they have found the “answer” and everyone else who disagrees with that is wrong, are often somewhat dillusional and very dangerous. Think for yourself, not what someone else told you to think.
And, not surprising, his response:
I don’t assume…...I KNOW. And bummer you don’t.
And I have a question myself….....what kind of an ignorant loudmouth loser goes on the internet and says anything at all regarding God when they KNOW they know absolutely NOTHING at all ABOUT God?
Me dangerous huh?...lol u retarded twit. P.S.- God is dangerous, so have a nice flight….bub bye
______
Hmm.. Not sure what to think about this. Figured I would post it because I, as I will always be, baffled by blind following people who are convinced they “know the truth”. I probably shouldnt have even bothered arguing with this guy, because his logic is so flawed it basically turned into a pissing contest. Anyway, I thought it was funny.P.S. Michael moore is the best! Oh, and if Heaven and Hell do exist, my Hell would be surounded by a bunch of sheep-heared blind christian/religous fanatics. SO, in that case, hopefully Ill go to HELL.
;)
Posted by andrew on May 30, 2003 at 5:58 PM Um, being the “chistians” version of hell, that is. Thought I would clarify. Also, to throw a little bill hicks into this, why is it that this guy is threatening me? Isnt a major tenant of believing in god forgiving people?
Dont like what I said? Forgive me! For shit sake. I know its over used, but its really hard to make a descent argument if you have a big fat HYPOCRITE sign on your forehead.
Posted by andrew on May 30, 2003 at 6:03 PM Jeremy Gibson:
How was there any merit to what you said? I guess I could come up with some random shit that happened in your localle and pair it with your being balless, but who cares? Will we ever truely meet each other? (This is where you reply with a typical “well if we did ah’d kick yer ass cuz yer a pussy”).
And whats with this “liberals” crap? For christ sake, does everybody have to label everything? I mean, I’ll admit I’m guilty of it to, but come on. If I am liberal the way I understand it, then so be it, thanks for the compliment. I simply believe two things:
1. Opinions are like assholes.
2. Everyones opinion is worthless.
-nobodys shit doesnt smell, and nobody lives for ever.I enjoy sites like this. They are funny. You are funny. Thanks for brightening my day. Ive got nothing to prove to you.
Posted by andrew on May 30, 2003 at 6:21 PM Maggie Sample: you are a gullible idiot if you really take Michael Moore seriously. The man is a crackpot and a liar. Maybe you should start getting your information on America from someone who is not a well-known liar, or at least quit embarassing yourself by citing his authority in front of other people.
Posted by Ted on May 30, 2003 at 9:15 PM Thanks, Mr. Bush is not the president, neither does he diserve to be. If freedom isn’t free, then why are we the land of the free? The world doesn’t want war, the world wants peace. WAR IS TERRORISM.
Posted by Colin Green on May 31, 2003 at 4:39 AM Yes - I remember it well, and even if Moore is a bit over the top and theatrical, we all need reminding of the ‘other point of view’. And don’t forget that the British have been subjected to the same ‘truths’, half truths and downright lies to support the war - it will rebound on Tony Blair, just as it will on George Bush Jnr
Posted by Stuart on May 31, 2003 at 4:38 PM Mynah>>> I’m forced to believe you didn’t read the minority opinion because issues of voter purge and discrimination were thoroughly addressed.>>>
Oh, I finally labored through its faulty analysis. I wonít go into a refutation of the entire 34-page document, but will concentrate on the item that impacted the election the most: The Bogus Felon Purge List.
What is so startling about this dissent are the pains that Thernstrom and Redenbaugh (T&R) take in order to absolve the State of Florida from any responsibility in the felon purge list, which wrongfully removed at least 57,700 voters from the rolls. T&R state ì.... elections in Florida are the responsibility of 67 county supervisors of election.î This is a lie.
According to Greg Palast, author of The Best Democracy Money Can Buy, he has copies of emails from the Florida Department of Elections, part of the secretary of stateís office and those county clerks who wanted to know what to do with those ëfelonsí on the purge list who were convicted in a future year. The STATE department of Elections told the clerks to blank out those wacky conviction dates. The list contains over 4,000 blank conviction dates.
Also, in June 1998, a Florida court decision ordered Governor Bush and the secretary of state to STOP interfering in the civil rights of ex-cons who had the right to vote. Unconcerned with this court order, the elections supervisor with Katherine Harrisís office told county election officials in Orlando to purge all out-of-state felons identified by DBT, the company which provided the list. This was illegal and a second ruling was issued by yet another Florida court in December, 1999 to force the secretary of state and governor to obey the law. Aught for not, because a letter dated September 18, 2000 from the Governorís office to the County of Hillsborough orders the county to tell ex-felons, who had served their time in other states and had their right to vote reinstated that they had to make an application for restoration of civil rights. A letter dated August 10, 2000 from Harrisís office to Bushís office indicates that the chief of the Florida State Association of Supervisors of Elections was also told to strike out-of-state ex-felons. So here we are two court orders later, still finding Governor Bush & Co. still violating the law from their respective STATE offices.
Posted by linda z on Jun 1, 2003 at 12:46 AM (continued)
ChoicePointís DBT, the company hired to compile the felon purge list was paid $2,317,800 after placing the costliest bid to perform the job that a company was paid $5,700 to do a year earlier. Choicepointís PR man, Marty Fagan said that it used 1,200 public databases to cross-check ìa very accurate picture of an individual,î including a history of addresses and financial assets. Palast discovered that Choicepoint used zero databases to crosscheck the accuracy of the data. Leon County did cross-check the list it was provided and found a 95% error rate.
DBT was also under contract to do a number of things to ensure the list was correct. The list included ìmanual verification using telephone calls and statistical samplingî. There is no evidence that an independent, professional statistician was hired to verify the results were correct either. Perhaps this would explain why the list of 8,000 so-called ëfelonsí provided by the State of Texas had a 100 percent error rate.
Clayton Roberts, director of Floridaís division of elections and Katherine Harris had testified before the U.S. Civil Rights Commission-under oath-that verification of the voter purge list was left completely up to the county elections supervisors, not to the state or the contractor, Choicepoint DBT. They lied.
There is this great BBC video clip of Clayton Roberts turning tail and running like a stuck pig when Palast shows him the ìDBT CONFIDENTIAL AND TRADE SECRETí document detailing the contractís provisions.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/events/newsnight/1174115.stm
Also, from Greg Palastís website:
http://www.gregpalast.com/index.cfm
ìIt wasnít reported in mainstream press, but the NAACP sued Harris and the gang for the black purge, and won. The state threw up its hands immediately and said, ëYou got us! Weíll put these people back as soon as we can.í Weíre still waiting.î
In conclusion, after reading the dissenting opinion and the evidence uncovered by Greg Palast, I have to go with Palast. I think he is right and T&R are wrong.
Posted by linda z on Jun 1, 2003 at 12:47 AM The REAL world in 1984 by VDH - noted historian and grape farmer (actually Sept. 1983——close enough)
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/hanson/hanson053003.asp
Old Europe: take a cue from Poland:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110003566
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Jun 1, 2003 at 6:42 AM Mynah>>>BTW, the one group that was the most likely to be “disenfranchised” [in the Florida 2000 presidential election] was black republicans.>>>
How many black republicans in Florida had their voting rights illegally removed?
From my prior post:>IMHO, only women should be allowed to have guns. Violence, government and school choice could be easily be dispensed with if everyone were to live like the Amish. Racism could easily be overcome if everyone were to marry someone of a different race.>
Mynah>>>That would solve a LOT of problems, agreed!>>>
At least we agree on something.:)
>>>You seem to want to avoid addressing arguments by pigeonholing people [Chuck Morse, a conservative radio talk show host who castigates Chip Berlet & Mark Lyonís book: Right-Wing Populism in America: Too Close for Comfort]. I commented by asking if he were a Rush Limbaugh wannabe.>>>
Weighing Morseís criticisms against Berletís material, I find Right-Wing Populism in America to be well-informed and objective, while Morse appears to be the one full of displaced invective. Hereís an excerpt from the book:
http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/chapter-excerpt.html
ìIt was in this context of resurgent isolationism and unilateralism that a self-conscious Patriot movement coalesced. It involved some 5 million persons who suspected—to varying degrees—that the government was manipulated by secret elites and planned the imminent imposition of some form of tyranny.
Patriot movement adherents who formed armed units became known as armed citizens militias. During the mid-1990s, armed militias were sporadically active in all fifty states, with total membership estimated at between 20,000 and 60,000.î
Iím well aware as I believe many are, that most conservatives would never become involved with the ëPatriotí movement. Why bother? I mean if you support a president who was elected by illegally denying constitutional rights to citizens, what do you need guns for? Still, 5 million ëPatriotsí is a lot of people and 20,000 to 60,000 armed militias buying all sorts of whacked out conspiracy theories is disconcerting.
Posted by linda z on Jun 1, 2003 at 6:35 PM (continued)
>>>Yes, it’s possible that Bill merely told Hillary that he screwed her [Juanita Broaddrick]. Most normal women would be incapacitated by the revelation that their husband had been unfaithful or had raped someone. They would not be going to any events with him to be sure.>>>
Being unfaithful and rape are two different issues and I will withhold judgment on the rape allegation. I believe that Clintonís extramarital affairs are a private matter between Clinton and his wife.
>>>My dad who is a big Bush hater was all obsessed about how Bush supposedly did this or did that in his past according to a book by a FELON.>>>
I canít believe youíre all hung up on the FELON issue when Jebís wife got caught trying to smuggle $20,000 worth of jewelry into the country through the Miami International Airport. Or how about Daddy Bushís pardon of Caspar Weinberger, Orlando Bosch, a notorious anti-Castro terrorist and Aslam Adam, a heroin smuggler serving time at Butner federal prison in North Carolina.
http://archive.salon.com/news/col/cona/2001/02/27/pardons/
>>>He [Clinton] only lost my support when his behavior IN OFFICE was inappropriate and dangerous. A person deserves a chance to earn our trust absent solid proof of serious deficiencies in judgment and morality. (like being a rapist)>>>
Bush never had my support because his behavior IN OFFICE is inappropriate and dangerous. I believe I have given ample explanations of his deficiencies in judgment and morality.
>>>Linda, where have you been? You must have a life, good for you. Clinton was dubbed America’s first black president by author Toni Morrison.>>>
I missed it, but found this nice article on salon:
Posted by linda z on Jun 1, 2003 at 6:36 PM At risk of boring oumer, here goes:
Hi Linda, responding to your post about Florida.
The DBT felon list was an overpriced piece of crap, certainly. This was not lost on 20 of the 67 counties, including Miami Dade and Broward, who exercised their apparent option of ignoring the list, although you wouldnít know that from reading the majority report. Perhaps they left it out because it would have refuted their claim that the list was a mandate from the state and affirmed the fact that the Florida constitution lays all the responsibility for carrying out elections with the counties, not the state. (unless they try to do something unconstitutional, which they did on several occasions, one such occasion identified as such by 7 of 9 U.S supremes)
As much as some would like it to be, the list was not part of a plot by George, Jebb, and Kate to keep blacks away from the polls. Based on extensive research, the Miami Herald concluded that the biggest problem with the felon list was not that it wrongly prevented eligible voters from casting ballots, but that it ended up allowing ineligible voters to cast a ballot. The Palm Beach Post after its own study basically concurred. Even if DBT did have responsibility for verifying the list and had done so correctly, the net result would have been several thousand more votes for Bush.
Please read this by Stuart Taylor Jr., a respected legal affairs analyst for the ìNational Journalî and someone who I have seen on T.V. slamming both republicans and democrats.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_natljournal-legal_affairs.htm
For proof of his mushy moderateness, read this unrelated piece:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/nj/taylor2003-05-27.htm
An analysis by an admittedly conservative source and self-labeled as such:
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/articles/03-12-01/carney.html
end pg. 1 (damn that 2500 limit!)
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Jun 2, 2003 at 8:33 AM Pg. 2ÖÖ
Hereís an example of some of the misinformation that was spread across the media and the internet before corrections could be issued. From Salon.comís website:
In the Salon Politics article “Florida’s flawed ‘voter-cleansing’ program,” it was incorrectly stated that Florida’s Secretary of State Katherine Harris hired a company, ChoicePoint, to create a voter “purge” list. The company was hired in 1998 before Harris was elected to her post. Also, Rick Rozar was incorrectly identified as a founder of ChoicePoint. Rozar was the president of a company, CDB Infotek, of which Choicepoint owned 70 percent, and which ChoicePoint eventually bought. Salon regrets the errors.
[Corrections made 12/19/00]Theyíre still omitting the fact that CDB Infotek was actually a competitor to DBT
Iím afraid Greg Palast may be perpetuating some of this type of misinformation. For example, he states that 57,700 people were wiped off the voter rolls. A suspiciously similar figure (57,770) was described in the dissenting opinion as being ìpotential felonsî. Not wiped off, just identified as possible felons by DBT. I watched his video on the BBC and was shocked by its absence of objectivity, especially when it appeared they meant to present it as ìnewsî. It was just partisan ìgotchaî journalism. If this is what Brits are getting as ìnewsî, itís no wonder they and much of Europe hate GWB so much.
After seeing all those news organizations put all that effort into recounting every ballot in the state, (Bush still won) and assuming that this DBT list surely was available for all to inspect, itís inconceivable to me that if there really was something to all this that it wouldnít have been brought out ìbig timeî.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Jun 2, 2003 at 8:38 AM No, most of the US supported the war - 70%. The revionsist left is at it again. ‘F’ the revionsit left!
Posted by Brian on Jun 2, 2003 at 9:19 PM Most of the US is f**king stupid, is why, Brian.
The “revisionist” left?
How about those 12 million poor that just got screwed out of the tax cut? Nice person, this evil president we have.
Posted by neil on Jun 3, 2003 at 9:09 AM Really nice interview with chomsky, answering questions from people around the world
http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=3712§ionID=36
Posted by oumer on Jun 3, 2003 at 12:11 PM Mynah:>>>The DBT felon list was an overpriced piece of crap, certainly. This was not lost on 20 of the 67 counties, including Miami Dade and Broward, who exercised their apparent option of ignoring the list, although you wouldnít know that from reading the majority report.>>>
So 40, or the majority of the counties did use the list.
>>>Perhaps they (the majority USCCR opinion) left it out because it would have refuted their claim that the list was a mandate from the state and affirmed the fact that the Florida constitution lays all the responsibility for carrying out elections with the counties, not the state.>>>
Actually, the Florida legislature passed a law in 1998, specifying that an outside contractor be hired to provide a list to counties who were then required to remove felons identified by the STATE. Harris admits that her office provided a list of ìPOTENTIALLYî ineligible voters, rather than a list of ìIDENTIFIEDî ineligible voters as the law required. Furthermore, the secretary of stateís payment to her contractor depended specifically on “manual verification using telephone calls.” This was never done.
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=167&row=0
>>>(unless they try to do something unconstitutional, which they did on several occasions, one such occasion identified as such by 7 of 9 U.S supremes)>>>
Which decision might this be?
>>>As much as some would like it to be, the list was not part of a plot by George, Jebb, and Kate to keep blacks away from the polls.>>>
But it was a plot to keep Democrats away from the polls, wasnít it?
>>>Based on extensive research, the Miami Herald concluded that the biggest problem with the felon list was not that it wrongly prevented eligible voters from casting ballots, but that it ended up allowing ineligible voters to cast a ballot.>>>
Oh really? The attorney general of Florida, Bob Butterworth, told Palast he absolutely would prosecute anyone who registered or voted illegally. A felon voting has committed a new felony-that means more jail time. If these criminals have been found, why havenít they been arrested? Butterworth was checking SIX cases when Palast last spoke to him, and so far, not one ëfelon voterí has been busted.
(continued)
Posted by linda z on Jun 3, 2003 at 4:10 PM (continued)
>>>The Palm Beach Post after its own study basically concurred. Even if DBT did have responsibility for verifying the list and had done so correctly, the net result would have been several thousand more votes for Bush.>>>
ìWhat did the Post sleuths use to hunt for felons? The DBT list. They then looked for voters who matched, by name, birthday, race and gender, ìfelonsî among the 6 million Florida voters. It was DBT lite. They failed to do even the lame cross-checks done by the state and counties. The Post did not find ì5,643 felons voted,î or anything close to it.î ñ The Best Democracy Money Can Buy ñ Greg Palast
Posted by linda z on Jun 3, 2003 at 4:11 PM >>>Please read this by Stuart Taylor Jr., a respected legal affairs analyst for the ìNational Journalî and someone who I have seen on T.V. slamming both republicans and democrats.>>>
Yeah boy, I bet those think tank talking heads at the Manhattan Institute were putting in extra, extra overtime to churn out excuses for dear Abigail Thernstrom, their poster babe on the USCCR.
>>>Hereís an example of some of the misinformation that was spread across the media and the internet before corrections could be issued. From Salon.comís website:>>>
At least Salon had the decency to issue a correction. Whereís the Postís correction that over 5,600 felons voted in the 2000 Florida election?
>>>Iím afraid Greg Palast may be perpetuating some of this type of misinformation. For example, he states that 57,700 people were wiped off the voter rolls. A suspiciously similar figure (57,770) was described in the dissenting opinion as being ìpotential felonsî. Not wiped off, just identified as possible felons by DBT.>>>
Right and STATE sent this list to the county election supervisors as IDENTIFIED (not POTENTIAL) felons to be wiped off their voting rolls. Oh, and what about the estimated 40,000 ex-felons who had served their time out-of-state and had their voting rights restored in those states? Didnít Katherine and Jebís office both violate these citizensí constitutional right to vote by instructing county election officials to bar them from registering to vote in Florida? Yes, they did. Statistically, it has been proven that ex-felons vote Democrat. Was this fact lost on Jeb & Co? I donít think so.
In fact, on February 23, 2001, a week after the U.S. Civil Rights Commission began to investigate the matter, a letter was issued from the governorís Office of Executive Clemency to the Division of Elections indicating that these voters need not apply for clemency. Unfortunately, the hapless Katherine Harris sent a letter to Harperís in April, 2002 after they published an article by Palast on the Florida election. She claimed that Jebís office ordered out-of-state ex-felons to obtain executive clemency before they would be allowed to vote. This letter was dated September 18, 2000, six weeks before the presidential election.
(continued)
Posted by linda z on Jun 4, 2003 at 1:44 AM (continued)
>>>I watched his video on the BBC and was shocked by its absence of objectivity, especially when it appeared they meant to present it as ìnewsî. It was just partisan ìgotchaî journalism.>>>
Well, he sure did ìgetî Clayton Roberts. :)
>>>If this is what Brits are getting as ìnewsî, itís no wonder they and much of Europe hate GWB so much.>>>
Happily, Britain got this as front page and primetime television news. There is probably not one person in Europe or anywhere else who is aware of what happened in Florida that doesnít think that Bush and Co. were responsible for stealing the election by thoroughly dishonest means. Except maybe his mommy, but she isnít exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.
>>>After seeing all those news organizations put all that effort into recounting every ballot in the state, (Bush still won) and assuming that this DBT list surely was available for all to inspect, itís inconceivable to me that if there really was something to all this that it wouldnít have been brought out ìbig time.>>>
Oh THAT. I thought youíd never ask about that BOGUS effort to recount every ballot in the state.
ìBut simply smothering the news wasnít good enough for the New York Times, CNN and the other keepers of the New Information Order. With other major news outlets, they joined together as ìthe Consortiumî and spent a wagonload of cash to hire the National Opinion Reasearch Center (NORC), of the University of Chicago, to conduct what was wrongly called a ìrecountî of the ballots. For months they held back the results. Finally, more than a year after the election, they released their findings. ìBush would have won anyway,î headlines reassured us. So shut up, move on, get over it: The Lion of Kabul won fair and square.
Or did he?
(continued)
Posted by linda z on Jun 4, 2003 at 1:45 AM (continued)
First, understand that NORC did not ìrecountî the ballots. Rather, its teams described each of the 180,000 ìspoiledî ballots that Katherine Harris barred from the official total. This was the first count of these ballots. Also, NORC ìcodersî were not allowed to count these ballots either, merely to provide physical descriptions of each ballot. They could note, in code, ìPaper ballot, Gore circled,î but could not count that ballot as a vote for Gore. The newspaper and television executives and editors, not the NORC experts, called the ìwinnerî in this one.
Most Americans would have thought the goal of this million-dollar investigation was to find out whom Floridians wanted to vote for. That tends to be what we mean by ìdemocracy.î But the news bosses were in no mood for a democracy that threatened the legitimacy of authority, especially with the war on in Afghanistan and an economy in the toilet. So, despite the fact that NORC coders clearly found that the majority of Florida voters thought they had voted for Gore, the papers called the NORC findings for Bush. Like, huh? NORC has put its data on the Web, so the Gore majority is there for all to see (for those who bother to look). The media chiefsí trick was to say that, going by various Florida rules, which knock out ballots with stray markings, Bush would have won. Well, we already knew that: Thatís how Katherine Harris called it for Bush-on technicalities, not votes. Through this editorial three-card monte, the Republic was saved.
I watched the NORC operation firsthand in Miami in February 2001. There was an Alice in Wonderland weirdness in the process-ìFirst we announce the winner, then we count the ballots.î It was not difficult to discern which candidate the voters wanted. ìIt screamed at you,î said one counter. If someone circled ìGore,î who do you think he or she wanted as president? Yet, thousands of such ballots were tossed out of the official count. Tens of thousands were disenfranchised because of a wrongly placed or stray mark-often made by the voting machine itself, as it turns out. The Consortium members did not comment on this exclusion of tens of thousands of clearly marked ballots or on its effect: the inauguration of the wrong person. ñ from The Best Democracy Money Can Buy ñ Greg Palast
Posted by linda z on Jun 4, 2003 at 1:46 AM “The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists,” the president of the United States warned. “If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow.”
The secretary of state loyally followed this hard line, defending the U.N. sanctions on Saddam Hussein: “There has never been an embargo against food and medicine. It’s just that Hussein has just not chosen to spend his money on that. Instead, he has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.”
Leveraging U.N. resolutions to support military action, the secretary of defense said: “The United Nations has determined that Saddam should not possess chemical or biological or nuclear weapons, and what we have is the obligation to carry out the U.N. declaration.”
The officials argued that U.N. inspections weren’t enough. “It is ineffectual; it is not able to do its job by its own judgment,” the president’s national security adviser said of the U.N. inspections regime. “It doesn’t provide much deterrence against WMD activity.”
The president’s congressional loyalists stood behind him. “Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction,” said a prominent senator, sounding a familiar theme, “but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people.”
“For the United States and Britain, an Iraq equipped with nuclear, chemical or biological weapons under the leadership of Saddam Hussein is a threat that almost goes without description,” said another hawk.
Who were the political leaders who, according to critics of the Iraq war, perpetrated this fraud on the American people by making overblown warnings about Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction? Respectively, President Bill Clinton, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, Defense Secretary William Cohen, National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Sen. Tom Daschle and Sen. John Kerry.
They were all speaking in the late 1990s when Clinton bombed Iraq to “degrade” an Iraqi WMD capacity that we are supposed to believe disappeared in the inspection-free years that ensued, only to be resurrected as a false justification for war by the Bush administration.——From a column by Rich Lowry
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Jun 4, 2003 at 4:13 PM linda Z wrote:
“Statistically, it has been proven that ex-felons vote Democrat.”
I rest my case.
Just kidding, Linda. I appreciate your passion on this issue and I will try to find time to do further study. Perhaps I’ll have to concede another one to you.
You are depending an awful lot on one source, however, and that one having suspicous motives. (selling books and lectures) I don’t even trust my doctor without a second opinion.
P.S. Stuart Taylor doesn’t write or work for the Manhattan Institute. (as far a I know) They just reproduced his article on their site. National Journal is a subscription site, so I couldn’t link you to it from there.
The 7 of 9 tally was that of the U.S. supreme court in agreeing that the proceedure proposed for recounts by the Florida Supreme court was unconstitutional, I believe if memory serves.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Jun 4, 2003 at 4:58 PM Tnak you Mr. Moore. Bowling for columbine is a necesary movie. Go on, you have my support.
Posted by Aitor Aguirre on Jun 5, 2003 at 10:51 AM thank you por bowling for columbine, and to all the brave american people who tell the truth about the guns, and the absence of real freedom in the states.tank you mr. moore
Posted by Aitor Aguirre on Jun 5, 2003 at 10:54 AM Great to see from the comments listed here that not all you yanks are as dim - witted as I had previously thought. To borrow a quote
‘Even my limited experience suggests most Americans are extremely pleasant people. I’m just sorry that the majority have to share a country with such a large minority of yawping, jingoistic, humourless, moronic wankers. Oh, and my sympathies about your President too.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mil.millington/indexfaq.html
Posted by Aussie on Jun 7, 2003 at 2:06 AM George W likes little boys- you know what i mean.
Posted by Manuel Calivera on Jun 7, 2003 at 2:57 AM I’ve been thinking quite a bit about everything lately. I have come to a conclusion: the world is going to end. It’s scary, but I’m thinking between 5 years and now, it will happen. The world is getting too small, people are getting pissed off, and have a bunch of nukes.
I think life is a failed experiment.
Having said the above, I do hope for one thing. That the next star wars movie comes out before we are all blown to smithereens.
You know, I’m half tempted to sell everything I own and buy a big pile of smack and a bunch of hookers.
Posted by andrew on Jun 9, 2003 at 7:28 PM O.K. Linda, here’s a second chance to judge for yourself.
JUANITA BROADDRICK SET FOR FOX NEWS INTERVIEW [TUESDAY NIGHT, 9 PM ET], SOURCES TELL DRUDGE—WHILE FORMER FIRST LADY IS BEING INTERVIEWED ON CNN… DEVELOPING…
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Jun 10, 2003 at 5:11 AM First we learn that 90% of felons vote democrat. And then this:
http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.asp?ref=/murdock/murdock0 060903.asp
I thought all the dangerous types were republican voters.
What gives? Linda? Chip?
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Jun 10, 2003 at 5:29 AM As an Australian I’m surprised to have heard of only one “Michael Moore” in a country of over 250,000,000 people. Where else are similar outspoken people in search of truth and truth only. Do the various media outlets of Mini-Me America’s (like Australia) have such control of our information that they’re able to suppress the likes of Mr Moore from us? Sure looks like it. I just hope that out of twenty million people we’re lucky enough to have our own Michael Moore. Otherwise, the ride will only be getting rougher.
Posted by JonnieDoe on Jun 11, 2003 at 1:24 PM JonnieDoe:
There are people who think this way, but much of them are too worried about getting beat or arrested. I live in the “bible-belt” and often have to censor myself as I do not wish to be put in the hospital by the military-going conservative pro-lifer, with the rebel flag on his ford 4X4—if I say the wrong thing.
Plus, even if you do speak up, if it doesn’t make some corporation money (or, gasp, loses them money), then they usually are not interested in what you have to say.
I read that interview (up a few postings) with Chomskey, and he stated that he refused a number of requests for public type interviews that would include him voiceing his opinions in large numbers of people. What I started to wonder was, if he was acting similar to the way Galileo acted, when he realized that if he didn’t renounce what he said he would be killed. I mean no offence to Chomsky, but when you live in a scary country like this, where opinions might get you killed from either the ignorant or the wealthy, it can sometimes make you not want to be too un-tactful about “spreading the word”.
GOD BLESS AMERICA!!
Posted by andrew on Jun 11, 2003 at 10:16 PM Most of you stupid Americans don’t know where Germany is, right??
THANKS FOR HELPING US 60 YEARS AGO AND NOW HAVE SOME FUN WITH THE SAME TYPE OF GOV. WE HAD!
FUCK THE US MURDERERS!
Posted by Mike on Jun 12, 2003 at 1:44 PM Actually, Mike from Germany,
I went on an archaelogical excavation in D¸nsberg, near Gie?en (north of Frankfurt).
I think maybe I remember where it is…
And no offence dude, but I met some Germans that were pretty fuckin stupid.
The point is, everybody sucks, and we are all apes that somehow think we are civilized.
The key to loathing people is not to discriminate. Hate everyone equally. Its only fair.
Posted by andrew on Jun 12, 2003 at 9:12 PM To all you naive American Empire rednecks who have probably never been out of your gestapo controlled country.
Why do you attack a man who has the courage to voice his opinion it is infantile much like the attack on France for not supporting an illegal war. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Not even the Simpsons is left untouched by the propaganda with the ‘cheese eating surrender monkeys’ cheap shot.I am pleased to see so many Americans disillusioned by their countrys actions. Please make sure your psychopathic president is not re-elected and the same goes for the UK(51st State) and their Prime Minister. Thankyou MM.
Posted by Maz on Jun 16, 2003 at 7:53 PM Maz, you clearly don’t know the first thing about our “gestapo controlled country” other than what you might pick up from these paranoid, leftist, fringe websites, so please limit your criticism to that convict colony you call home. If the British hadn’t dumped their human scum on that island 90% of you wouldn’t be there. Keep that in mind the next time you feel like calling Americans rednecks. And you sound like a spoiled little shit when you berate people who haven’t left the country.
Posted by Phil on Jun 16, 2003 at 9:34 PM I’m sorry Phil if that upset you, I know a little bit about your country because I used to live there. At least my ‘convict colony’ doesn’t go about the world causing havoc to further their own greedy oil grabbing interests under the false title of ‘War on Terror’. I personally can’t see how the actions of the US administration has made the world a safer place since the tragedy of September 11th 2001.
Instead of calling Australians human scum please could you explain to me why you feel what your country is doing is right i honestly want to understand.
Posted by Maz on Jun 17, 2003 at 6:28 PM “I personally can’t see how the actions of the US administration has made the world a safer place since the tragedy of September 11th 2001”
Maz, read these articles and you’ll see that there is no question that US has made the world safer since Sept. 11th 2001. I admit that both articles come from conservative sources (US News and the National Review), but they are very straighforward and leave no doubt that the world is now safer as a result of US actions. The first two are particularly fact-driven, so don’t give me that horseshit about the right-wing media.
Concerning the “false title of ‘War on Terrror’”:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?More reasons the world is safer now:
ID=8147http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock061703.aspFor the people who still can’t understand that the war wasn’t for oil:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-taheri061303.aspFinally, Maz, your country went to Iraq too, so how is it that the US, and not the heirs to Britain’s old human dumping grounds, is guilty of going around the world “causing havoc to further their own greedy oil grabbing interests under the false title of ‘War on Terror’?” Just because your country opted to ride our coattails and let us bear most of the cost doesn’t make Australia any less culpable, if that’s they way you see it.
Posted by Phil on Jun 17, 2003 at 7:56 PM Mr. Moore,
Thanks to your speach at the Academy Awards, Senator Byrd is now only one of my heros. I became interested in your ideas when you held the funeral in front of the Humana building, but this took the cake. The things that you said on TV were the same things that have been coming out of my mouth for months. Thank God for people like you who give voice to those of us who have none. God bless you and keep up the good work!!!
Posted by vickie on Jun 18, 2003 at 10:44 PM Mr. Moore,
Thanks to your speach at the Academy Awards, Senator Byrd is now only one of my heros. I became interested in your ideas when you held the funeral in front of the Humana building, but this took the cake. The things that you said on TV were the same things that have been coming out of my mouth for months. Thank God for people like you who give voice to those of us who have none. God bless you and keep up the good work!!!
Posted by vickie on Jun 18, 2003 at 10:44 PM Mr. Moore,
Thanks to your speach at the Academy Awards, Senator Byrd is now only one of my heros. I became interested in your ideas when you held the funeral in front of the Humana building, but this took the cake. The things that you said on TV were the same things that have been coming out of my mouth for months. Thank God for people like you who give voice to those of us who have none. God bless you and keep up the good work!!!
Posted by vickie on Jun 18, 2003 at 10:44 PM I’ve seen a lot of white niggers in my time.
Sen. Robert Byrd
Posted by Robert Byrd on Jun 19, 2003 at 2:33 PM Michael Moore is an uneducated, banal boor. How quick he is to criticize the country that allows him to spout vitriol from the safe confines of his $2 million home. What a complete moronic ass, and how sad that the end of his 15 minutes of fame didn’t end with “Roger and Me.”
Posted by Tim on Jun 19, 2003 at 5:14 PM Moore’s films expose the fear culture that is the toy of the rich people who tyranize and supress others in the US-and perhaps in the UK and all over the world Moore has uncovered a truth for us all to notice. I’m outraged that Hollywood-a film industry-could be apposed to a film that exposes the truth behind guns. fear and politics that are manipulated to democratic conservative men can enjoy their life while they oppress the world around them.
Thank you Moore-youv’e opened my eyes. I hope the people posting threats against him realise they are ignorant low lifes without any idea.
Regards,
Posted by silly white man on Jun 20, 2003 at 8:14 PM george w rocks he is coser to christ than moore, the pope, and the dixie chicks combined, justice against evil dicktators
Posted by d nice on Jun 21, 2003 at 9:57 PM America should be glad it has someone like MM. Here in Europe he’s about the only american that (to us) makes sence. The way we look at things here is that there a blood-thursty maniac running the white house and he’s trying to hijack the world.
MM prooves that there are still americans that question these goings on.
Be glad you have him cause he’s the best promotor of your country there is, Bush off course being the worste.
Posted by kevin on Jun 22, 2003 at 9:43 AM Bowling for Columbine was a great documentary. See you in war court mr Bush. ps : the weapons of mass destruction, with such solid “proofs” that they existed in Iraq, and the whole reason for attacking Iraq and force an FN resolution.. where are they? You US citizens shold overthrow your government
Posted by Stargazer on Jun 22, 2003 at 10:02 PM Great article. Shows the bitter truth about the media and the state of our country.
Posted by jon on Jun 23, 2003 at 7:20 PM In reply to the following statement:
Mr. Moore,
I watched your buffoonish and shameful performance on last night’s Oscar telecast. It must have startled you to hear so many boos when you were, in your delusional mind, expecting total support from your Hollywood cronies…. ETC ETCWhy dont you at least know what you are criticising before you go ahead and lash out at a man who obviously has more origianl thought and guts than you? How can you sit back and analyse incorrectly this man when you have not even bothered to see his opinion and side of the story? Then, to prove your own stupidity, you fall back on useless, degrading second grade insults with no evidence to back any of it up, ie “waccy tobaccy” and calling him a “fatass bastard”. How sad, how very sad. Next time, maybe think before you leap.
Posted by LG on Jun 24, 2003 at 9:32 AM Profit and Power. Does anyone remember Y2K? Nothing happened, yet do you realize how much earnings was made alone on “supplies” and “stocking up” for this so called potential disaster? Do you realize how much sales alone have been for american flag propaganda?
This is just a fraction of what is happening now. People in fear need to know that someone is in control. What if this “fear” is fabricated or overexaggerated? Wouldn’t you want to know?
How many innocent people are being killed for whatever political objective this adminstration has?
How many things are being withheld from us?
If those who think our government is on the right path, new some different information that was undeniably true, such as the blantant disregard for the rights of many many people, the death of innocents, or an alternate agenda as to whats being told—would you still support the war?
Accepting things because you are told to IS VERY EASY, but also VERY DANGEROUS. It makes you easy to CONTROL.
Please, I beg those who wish to not see what could be the truth about our governemnt, to try harder. To look harder. To investigate. To get as much information on BOTH sides and come to a conclusion.
Posted by worried on Jun 24, 2003 at 6:25 PM it is entertaining to read all of the comments by these random hicks who blindly follow the leader regardless of the circumstances. the witch hunt continues and the ignorance is rampant as ever.
bush has done nothing good since his presidency, nothing. hes done a fantastic job of proper fucking our international relationships up though, a simply fantastic job of it. and lets face it, going to war with iraq simply is not needed, well, was not needed. what did it accomplish?
Posted by jamie on Jun 25, 2003 at 12:01 AM Although we live in the greatest democracy in the world, it’s sad that most Americans are afraid to criticize and question their elected leaders (which is one of the fundamental tenets of any healthy, functioning democratic system). I am proud that Michael Moore said what he said. When I watched it at home I was applauding; it was great to see him assert the rights that are rapidly fading away from us, thanks to Bush and his father’s oil friends Cheney, Ashcroft, & Co. Bush has tarnished our great nation; he has given the great republic of America a bad name. His time is up!
(http://alexcacioppo.blogspot.com)
Posted by Alex Cacioppo on Jun 25, 2003 at 3:13 AM “To be great is to be misunderstood.” “Whoso would be a man must be a non-conformist.” “In every work of genius we recognize our own rejected thoughts: they come back to us with a certain ailienated majesty.” -Ralph Waldo Emerson. What fear, what mendacity, what bald-faced hypocricy posing as ideology, what self-deluding jabberwocky still bandied about by so many herein! Let’s agree on one thing if that’s possible: The imperialist wars against Iraq and Afghanistan were the most cowardly acts of aggression in the history of mankind by one nation against others. Let’s hear some dissembling and weasily justifications for this absolutely inescapable fact. You can parrot the psych-op solipsims of the obviously corporate, (read fascist), media’s scripted and relentless lies-spoon-fed them by their oligarchical masters and you can force yourself to believe them, wrap yourself up in the flag and then proceed to imprecate against all voices of dissent by thinking you’re saying something meaningful by telling all who don’t see things your way that they should love it or leave it, (as though that would be a bad thing), but you can not deny that the most powerful military machine in history invaded mere husks and beaten pulps of diseased and starving desert countries as though there was something honorable or valorous about it. But I’m wrong. Of course you can and WILL. I guess you won’t get it until you are personally subjected to the tearing down of your door by some para-military law enforcement entity at two in the morning because your name happened to get onto the wrong list and Patriot Act II denies you the right to even open your mouth to whimper about your innocence. Oh well, just thought I’d check in again.
Posted by Dom on Jun 25, 2003 at 3:13 AM i totally agree with michael moore’s protest and his view on how this country is being run into the ground by a self-indulgent know-nothing like george w. bush. it is imperative that we elect a president with a little more on the ball and one who doesn’t rely on his family to help him rig… i mean win an election. as for the war, i believe it to be no more than a battle of ego, and bush’s attempt at gaining another term in office since he knows that the economy problems can be blamed on him and no one would vote for him otherwise(FDR set that precedent). Anyhow, kudos to you, Mr. Moore!
Posted by adam bright on Jun 25, 2003 at 7:06 PM People are angry at MM because of his last book which totally called out “Stupid White Men”. Maybe he should have changed the tilte. He is really hitting the mark, but in an entirely un-American way. It is not American to confront political leaders in mass-public locales or on issues that are serious; calling everybody out and providing evidence. This is for socialist democracies and those crazy Euros who think that a President should be held accountable. MM invites criticism because he dosent give a Sh&! who it is he is calling out. I dont think they will release his next film; apparently its all about the rigged election in 2000 and the BUSH family going all the way back to the first Gulf War. This is entirely un-American…a review of history to avoid repeating mistakes! worthless…Thanks for the neat story though.
Posted by Charles Tomelton on Jun 25, 2003 at 10:33 PM I m glad that someone like Moore tell everyone the truth!!!
Posted by manu on Jun 26, 2003 at 10:24 AM I’m really curious as to how you peaceniks rationalize the discovery of plans for a gas centrifuge and plans for urnanium enrichment system in an Iraqi scientist’s backyard. Is that not enough to convince you that Saddam Hussein, at the very least, had plans to resurrect his nuclear weapons program? Is that not reason enough to get rid of the guy? And what about the documents US investigators found that discussed hding banned weapons parts from UN inspectors? They must have been fabricated by the CIA, I guess. Nothing amuses me more than the way you crazy peaceniks insist on giving Saddam Hussein the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by Tom on Jun 26, 2003 at 10:32 PM Im young and starting to form my own views on different social and political issues. I think it’s always important to listen to different views and ideas rather than take things at face value. Mr Moore makes people think which can only be a good thing,if you dont agree with what he has to say well then thats okay but there is never a need to say nasty stuff about him. Say something constructive maybe you dont agree with Mr Moore on a certain subject so why not express yourself and share your views on why you dont agree with Mr Moore.Everyone has an opinion but not everyone is brave enough to express it in the “real world” rather than here in computer land and it’s for that reason why I like the dude.
Posted by Pete Carroll on Jun 27, 2003 at 12:21 AM partisan ping-pong is disgraceful. Some kid will stumble on to this website mistaking it for impartial media coverage with no slant. They’ll believe the Bush contempt is more than a Leftist propaganda machine.
Posted by MedullaPancreasOblongata on Jun 27, 2003 at 8:58 AM A Swede sees the BIG picture:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A43468-2003Jun27?language=printer
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Jun 29, 2003 at 3:48 PM people like mike moore give an international face to those many (hopefully) americans that are aware of the dense fog the incredible culture of government promoted and media spread propoganda that saturates their nation and helps enlighten many American citizens who are by and large ignorant to the reality of the situation.
All i can say is that as a member of an “ally” country, and well aware of the international consensus that it is in fact the US that foriegn policy poses the biggest threat to international stability it is terrific to see a sane voice coming from within.
I sincerely hope Moore continues to produce material of this nature that shocks you (us) out of our blaze stupor and promotes strong action be levelled against these lobbies.
bernie lipton, england
Posted by bernie lipton on Jul 4, 2003 at 5:33 AM God bless people like Joel Bleifuss who actually report the truth. This is the first article I’ve read by him, but it is a great one. Sadly Joel seems to be a breed on the path to extinction in the american media, but none the less it does feel refreshing when you actually hear the truth.
Posted by Jonathan Hubbell on Jul 7, 2003 at 4:29 AM michael moore is the man. im glad to see there are alot of brilliant honest americans willing to stand up against an immoral war. george w is an idiot.
Posted by luke on Jul 7, 2003 at 10:47 AM The academy awards was not
meant to be used as a political
platform. I feel that Mr. Moore
had to use his one and only chance
to speak his views because in any other situtation there would be no audience forced to listen to his
commentary. I fully support the
President of the United States and
thank God that we now have a President who is trying to make this
a safer country and does not have
any women hidden under his desk
GO REPUBLICANS
Posted by kay on Jul 9, 2003 at 1:35 AM The academy awards was not
meant to be used as a political
platform. I feel that Mr. Moore
had to use his one and only chance
to speak his views because in any other situtation there would be no audience forced to listen to his
commentary. I fully support the
President of the United States and
thank God that we now have a President who is trying to make this
a safer country and does not have
any women hidden under his desk
GO REPUBLICANS
Posted by kay on Jul 9, 2003 at 1:36 AM Micheal Moore has done something positive you fucks, by getting Wal Mart to withdraw all hand gun ammunition from their stores in California. If any of you idiotic pricks, who have “elected” a president with an IQ of 91 (thats below national average) have actually watched Bowling for Colombine you’d realise that Micheal Moore is a man with a big heart who actually cares, and was speaking the truth. Where are the “weapons of mass destruction”?
Posted by James McElhinney on Jul 9, 2003 at 12:33 PM I think what Moore said was fascinating. I don’t know of anyone that could have put it better. Moore is a great person with a lot of smarts and I am grateful for his views on America because media is so one-sided, its pathetic. We americans need to unite and kick this “president” of ours out of office before he destroys the U.S. and what we believe in.
Posted by JJ Strunk on Jul 10, 2003 at 8:21 PM James from england:
If you review most of the people in these postings, they support michael more. When saying “you fucks” it sorta just makes you sound funny. You dont want to hang out with a bunch of friends that agree with you and be like “you guys are stupid”.
Oh, and it was K-mart, not walmart.
JJ Strunk—I’m ready to rise up. Lets impeach this narrow minded self centered asshole.
Posted by andrew on Jul 10, 2003 at 9:08 PM To Kay from the “U.S.”—the whole “Go republicans” bit.
In trying not to “categorize” which is exactly what you are doing, it seems that you carry the mentality that most republicans do. You are willing to vote for ANYBODY or ANYTHING as long as its wearing your parties colors.
Try to think for yourself once. Hell make up your own party “kay’s party”. There’s no reason why you have to take the beliefs of a bunch of other people. And if your asking me, you made a bad choice on whos to follow. ;)
Posted by andrew on Jul 10, 2003 at 9:20 PM Its nice to see that even inside the states there are some clearminded and objective veiws, because from the outside it is sure scaring the rest of the world shitless. Congratulations for covering this event, and keep fighting against the ignorance and brainwashing that seems blatently obvious in your society.
Posted by New Zealand Girl on Jul 10, 2003 at 9:56 PM I think its rather unfortunate that so many Americans have been manipulated into believing they are supporting a war that is justified by an idiot that did not actually win the election. I can’t believe that you can slam Mike Moore when what hes saying is what every other country in the world wants to say…but cant, considering the U.S holds more than a quarter of the wealth on earth. A canadian cabinet minister said it perfectly when she called “President” Bush a moron. Because he is! He’s an illiterate idiot that takes daily naps in the afternoon. It shows that even after something as tragic as WWII, a society is so sheep-like that they’ll believe anything put on their plate, and being a proud canadian, i can say i’m glad i have the ability to be pragmatic, while also having the ability to laugh my ass off at a nation of people that aren’t really living their lives. Start living for yourself, get some morals, and come to the realization that you’re all becoming hated murderers out of this war. Learn your facts before criticizing a person as insightful as Mike. He may have dropped out of college, but for good reason. School curriculums and governments standards do not instill individual creativity, and you’re all taught what is put in front of you by the government. At least this guy has the balls and natural intelligence to realize that you’re government is promoting a hoax. I can say without question, that the United States is the most hated nation on the earth right now…AND FOR GOOD REASON you redneck fucks.
Posted by A Canadian looking in on Jul 15, 2003 at 8:45 PM Well, Tom from God knows where, concerning your comments:
I’m really curious as to how you peaceniks rationalize the discovery of plans for a gas centrifuge and plans for urnanium enrichment system in an Iraqi scientist’s backyard.
What the hell?
Is it the pesky WMD thing? Is it how even BushCo’s own senior officials, like Lt. Gen. James Conway, the top U.S. Marine in Iraq, said that American forces have looked very hard for weapons of mass destruction, and have cleared fully 87 major suspected sites, 19 of which were “highest priority,” according to top-secret intelligence, but that the WMDs are “simply not there”?Could it be snide little Rumsfeld bootlicker Paul Wolfowitz’s shameless declaration that BushCo’s incessant WMD hype was merely “bureaucratic” and “politically convenient” for the war? Or how he went on to gloat about the “huge prize” the U.S. won in Iraq—not liberation, not a reduced threat of terrorism, but a new Mideast home for some shiny new U.S. military bases?
I’ve got the tar, someone get the feathers and lets take care of this fuckhead in the whitehouse.
Posted by neil on Jul 16, 2003 at 12:02 PM Oh, and for all of you mouth-breathing flag-waving blind rednecks, I’m not threatening the president.
My previous statment menas I think he deserves a tar and feathering, then impeachment.
Posted by neil on Jul 16, 2003 at 12:13 PM Canadian Looking In: unlike all you globalist pussies, we’re not trying to win an international popularity contest and we don’t care if we’re not popular with a bunch of socialists in Brussels and Paris. Even if we were the most hated country on earth at least we’re not a complete non-issue like Canada. No one even thinks about your country enough to hate it or not. You are nothing. You can sit back and take comfort in your perceived popularity all you want because your country has absolutely no say in international politics.
Posted by Canada Sucks on Jul 16, 2003 at 9:13 PM Neil, I’m still waiting for an explanation as to why we should have left your buddy Saddam alone when he was obviously planning on reviving his nuclear weapons program.
Also, you’ve taken Wolfowitz’s quote out of context and I don’t care if a Marine said that there were no weapons of mass destruction at 87 sites. What is that supposed to mean? Just because there were no WMD at 87 suspected sites does not mean there are/were none in Iraq.
You are still giving SADDAM HUSSEIN the benefit of the doubt. The entire world knew that he possessed WMD (including Hans Blix) and he refused to provide any proof that they had been destroyed. Get it through your thick leftist skull that the burden of proof was on Saddam, not the rest of the world.
Posted by Tom on Jul 16, 2003 at 9:45 PM Three cheers for people who actually speak their mind and speak the truth when all others are too afraid. I am not an American, but in Britain your Michael Moore is well respected by the ordinary Joe who likes to believe that their is someone out there who is not scared of the bigwigs. Many politicians are crap and they dont speak for the people. Its people like MM who you want as your lawyer, policeman, politician and car mechanic. Go there geezer, tell it like it is ‘cos the truth hurts and if you dont like it go stick your head in a pile of sand!!!!!
Posted by Tamara on Jul 18, 2003 at 1:15 AM Yahoo for Micheal Moore a REAL American! Land of the FREE and home of the BRAVE!!
Posted by Lauri Kubuitsile on Jul 19, 2003 at 3:46 PM I spiled blood for my country in asia. What has Michael (the human dilldo) Moore done to protect our freedom? Talk is cheep. Honor and freedom comes with a price. When he pays that price than I will respect him.
Posted by don on Jul 21, 2003 at 6:33 PM http://www.manhattan-institute.org/cfml/printable.cfm?id=1109
The last two paragraphs:
When the War on Terrorís opponents intone, ìWe need not trade liberty for security,î they are rightóbut not in the way they think. Contrary to their sloganís assumption, there is no zero-sum relationship between liberty and security. The government may expand its powers to detect terrorism without diminishing civil liberties one iota, as long as those powers remain subject to traditional restraints: statutory prerequisites for investigative action, judicial review, and political accountability. So far, these conditions have been met.
But the larger fallacy at the heart of the elitesí liberty-versus-security formula is its blindness to all threats to freedom that do not emanate from the White House. Nothing the Bush administration has done comes close to causing the loss of freedom that Americans experienced after 9/11, when air travel shut down for days, and fear kept hundreds of thousands shut up in their homes. Should al-Qaida strike again, fear will once again paralyze the country far beyond the effects of any possible government restriction on civil rights. And that is what the government is trying to forestall, in the knowledge that preserving security is essential to preserving freedom.
Posted by Mynah Byrd on Jul 22, 2003 at 9:15 PM You write that as long as they are dying at a rate of 100,000 or more a year at the hands of their own regime it’s all right? Are you accordingwith the genocide? Ican’t believe!!!
Posted by Raul Puerto on Jul 22, 2003 at 11:07 PM Whaw ...what a lesson of tolerance! It seemed to to me that the first amendment with your constitution guaranteed the right to express its opinion. Are people against the war to be cut down? Hey the guys, we are almost 4 billion this case! Who are you for you noner the right to condemn such or such country? Iraq, a threat? But the United States IS a threat for the rest of the world and you are not invaded that I know! Why? Because you do what you want in YOUR country, you are judicious being free. Free Iraqi are they now? Far from there! To kill somebody because its opinion disturbs you… You make pity! Fortunately that there’s some peoples as Mr. Moore who still make honor to your country.
Posted by Yann M on Jul 23, 2003 at 4:50 AM Yann M., you and the rest of your countymen can fuck yourselves. We don’t give a shit about what you think. Your opinion means absolutely nothing. Nobody is surprised that a bunch of French pussies don’t want to do anything about Saddam Hussein—you won’t even fight for your own country. I hope Germany decides to kick your ass again so we can stand on the sidelines and laugh as you pussies beg for us to do your fighting for you. And what is the French obsession with JERRY LEWIS all about? Pathetic. Not to mention that French people are among the ugliest on the planet and smell like shit. Please practice some hygeine. Now go beg for handouts from your crooked socialist government.
Posted by Harry on Jul 23, 2003 at 2:34 PM There should be more people like Michael Moore, speaking what Americans and the rest of the world thinks. His “ficticious” comments are all the more pertinent now as we haven’t found any WMD. His new film “farenheit 911” I think its called, should be just as provocative, and give Bush and his junta something to think about come election time. I only hope that Mike can turn his fire towards John Howard, certainly a candidate for “stupid white person” and not let him get away with being Bush’s dog.
Posted by Yaramah Zalucki on Jul 25, 2003 at 6:57 AM The movie “Bowling for Columbine” had to be made. This fact alone is evidence that America has a problem with gun violence. As for Mr Moore, I applaud his courage for making this documentary.
Posted by Dr Undies on Jul 27, 2003 at 11:52 AM Harry—-in response to:
“Yann M., you and the rest of your countymen can fuck yourselves. WE don’t give a shit about what you think. Your opinion means absolutely nothing.”
To be completely honest, I’ve been to France, and I really don’t like french people. If I can help it, I wont ever go there again.
But I would glady kiss every single one of their bare asses then be included in your ignorant narrow-minded ranting. Speak for yourself, or at least clarify when saying “WE” because I don’t know you, don’t want to, and could give a fuck about what your opinions are, because your to blind to even come up with a logical argument.
Posted by andrew on Jul 28, 2003 at 5:30 PM Praise be Michael Moore, for he will show us the light..the truth…the err of our ways.
Posted by andrew on Jul 28, 2003 at 5:31 PM Thank you Mike for your compliments about my country.
As a Canadian however I only pray that your government keeps ignoring our happy polite Socialist existence up here. Frankly your present violence prone right wing nation scares us. (If only you could pick your neighbors?)
PS: By the way please keep up your work toward changing this situation)
Posted by alfred cotterill on Jul 29, 2003 at 5:39 AM i would like to point out it was more than just 5 stage hands booing. ewan mcgregor has a brother in the RAF serving in iraq and he had to be physically restrained from kicking the shit out of the fat fuck michael.
Posted by james on Jul 29, 2003 at 9:40 AM Tom, you fucking asshole. It’s people like you that make me ashamed to call myself an American. I bet you drive a “big truck” because you couldn’t put your fucking toys away because you never grew up. Still like playing cowboys and indians.
No, Tom, FUCK YOU. FUCK YOU and FUCK YOU. That’s not very leftist of me, now is it you FUCKING ASSHOLE.
Posted by neil on Jul 29, 2003 at 11:48 AM And Tom, because you’re pissed off because THEY HAVE NEVER OR WILL EVER FIND WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION, means you say I have a thick leftist skull. Yeah, that’s why I respond with all the fuck yous, which I mean, by the way.
We’ve been right all along and you just can’t handle it. Go piss somebody else off—yeah you really did push my buttons. I’ll admit that.I should have known better arguing with a dickless piece of shit like yourself.
Posted by neil on Jul 29, 2003 at 11:53 AM The U.S has been involved in more wars and conflicts than the Roman Empire. Need I say more…?
Posted by Liz on Jul 29, 2003 at 12:55 PM “No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.” - - George Bush
“Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly,
participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups
and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against
establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of
separation between church and state.’”
[Hugo L. Black, U.S. Supreme Court Justice, majority opinion
in Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947)]“I distrust those people who know so well what
God wants them to do because I notice it always
coincides with their own desires.”
[Susan B. Anthony]
Posted by andrew on Jul 29, 2003 at 11:10 PM Hey Neil, you still haven’t answered my question. What’s your explanation for the hidden gas centrifuge blueprints and components we found? Should we have let Saddam continue to try to build nuclear weapons on the sly? All I want is an explanation, since you’re so convinced that we should have left your buddy Saddam alone. No need to apologize for blowing your cool; I know you’re upset about the death of Uday and Qusay so I won’t take it too hard. By the way, your harsh words would be a lot less ridiculous if you signed your messages with a different name, maybe something like Butch or Rocco. It’s hard to take someone seriously when they try to sound like a tough guy and then sign the message with a name like Neil. Until next time, good luck coping with your rage problem and the death of the Hussein boys.
P.S. It’s DESTRUCTION not DISTRUCTION.
Posted by Tom on Jul 30, 2003 at 12:41 AM At the begining of this war, that is truly a mistake, very few used their freedom to express themselves. Now that we are much further into this mistake, it is obvious that we as a nation failled.
Posted by Sunny on Jul 30, 2003 at 6:14 PM Many people have taken Bush’s Sept 2001 cry of “Either you’re with us, or you’re with the terrorists” seriously. Criticism of Bush govt policies translates into support for Saddam. Support for the troops, demanding ‘bring them home’, is seen as endangering their lives. Saddam’s only possible link to terrorism was sending money to families of suicide bombers in Palestine. While removing this support tightens the US’s grip of the “Roadmap to Nowhere - er, Peace” for the Middle East, it was nothing to do with 9/11. I’m not saying Saddam wasn’t a monster, but he was installed with US govt support in order to subvert the threat of “Arab Nationalism” - the idea that the Iraqi people might set up a state that served the interests of the Iraqi people. Saddam quickly crushed that dream, but then rebelled against his ‘masters’. Now, after 30 years of his repression and brutality, 10 years of bombings and sanctions that left the people weak and demoralised, 100’s of 1000’s of children dead of sickness and starvation, and this last effort which destroyed water, power, medical, phone and other systems, the Occupiers of Iraq (mostly businessmen not accountable to your Congress) dare to say they are there to help the people of Iraq. They are there to help themselves to oil and millions of dollars’ worth of reconstruction projects. Also to keep the UN and other countries and international bodies out. They are dismantling a state and offering it up to private companies, not offering self determination. The US didn’t go to the UN saying, “Saddam’s really a nasty dictator, shall we get rid of him now?” If it were “all about the brutality” and replacing dictators with democracy, why did the US support the dictator General Pinochet in the assassination of Chile’s democratically elected President Allende? Why befriend Musharraf, who also staged a coup to remove the elected government of Pakistan? Why support the sprawling Saudi hereditary monarchy? The history of US-backed ‘regime change’ over the last 50 years shows that US governments are anti-democratic, when their interests are not served by particular democracies. The Occupiers of Iraq are there to privatise the country and subdue it to their will.
PS. Can someone explain to me which wars US soldiers have gone to in order to die in the defense of the right to free speech of its citizens? (Excluding the War of Independence, which enabled the constitution to be created in the first place)
Posted by Cath Stuart on Aug 1, 2003 at 6:28 PM I find it funny that anyone exercizing their right to speak freely is booed. Surely trying to hide what he has to say no matter what it is is un-patriotic in itself?
I also find it funny that anyone against Michael Moore that has expressed their views here have shown that they are infact illiterrate imbeciles, simply by their vulgarity and lack of knowledge of the English language. It would seem that “Stupid White Men” don’t like Mr. Moore very much. I wonder why.
I would like to add that the most probable reason for Mr. moore being ignored by major news sources is that a certain Mr. Rupert Murdoch despises the idea of free speech, freedom of the press and objective reporting on the whole.
Posted by Harun Butt on Aug 3, 2003 at 11:37 AM PART ONE
Because of the nature of my profession (security), it is unacceptable to speak out against the war and the bush administration in general. Those brave few who have dared to voice their opinions have been labeled as “hippies” and “anti-freedom”, etc. The phenomenon that I have observed in this debate is this: those on the anti-war side question bush, how he got into office, and his entire administration (i.e. the people responsible for the war). The pro-war side responds by making personal attacks, and boycotting those who “dare” speak against “president” bush.
It seems to me, and many others, that Americans need war to feel patriotic. It is standard for the U.S. to slaughter foreign people from afar, only to ignore the suffering that they have caused. Years ago, as the U.S. was bombing Kosovo, my community gave shelter to hundreds of refugees from that country. These people had amazing spirit, especially since most had seen family members slaughtered by U.S. bombs.
This brings me to point out an error that many have posted on this site. That error is to say that Michael Moore is merely anti-bush, and that the eight years that Clinton was in office, he “sat back”. Perhaps if the pro-war, anti-MM masses were to do the slightest bit of research, they would realize that Mr. Moore has been speaking against politicians (including Clinton) since the 80’s.
Posted by Diana Prince on Aug 3, 2003 at 3:44 PM PART TWO
I have personally read MM material, watched his television series The Awful Truth, and seen some of his documentaries. From all of these, it does not appear that MM is trying to push a political agenda on the public (unless you count the Ficus campaign), but that he is trying to get the public to think for themselves.
Everyone should read up on how the bushes influenced the votes in Florida, as well as how Clinton cut welfare. Everyone should try to find out about who gets PAC money from where, and consider how it will affect their judgment as a leader of the people. Most importantly, everyone should hold their leaders accountable for their actions, be they drunk driving charges, adultery, racism, etc. Look at facts from not only “left” and “right”, but from independent, and non-partisan camps as well. After the facts have been carefully examined, then you can have confidence in your opinion.Consider this:
When you buy a car, you take into account how many km per litre (or miles per gallon) the vehicle gets, how much head, and leg space is in the car, the options such as air-conditioning, and power windows, whether the car comes with airbags, the safety rating, etc. You consider this because you are going to spend thousands of dollars on this car, and you will have it for a number of years.
The President that you elect will be paid $400,000 a year, from your tax money, and he will also decide how billions, if not trillions of your dollars are spent over the course of four years. This man (and in the states it will invariably a man), is capable of making profound decisions that could alter your entire life. He could make you lose your job (free trade), he could send you, or your children off to die (war), and he could slowly kill you in your own home (arsenic levels in water).
Don’t you think extensive consideration should be used when deciding who to vote for?
We should all applaud Michael Moore, and others like him, who bring the public “the awful truth”, if you will. A truth that is not decided by the government or by the media companies that are under the government’s thumb. And if individuals like Moore have to make their statements at the Oscars, or other live events where editors don’t have time to decided for us what we should hear, then so be it.
Against the bush administration,
Posted by Diana Prince on Aug 3, 2003 at 3:45 PM Thank you to Michael Moore for speaking the truth. The mainstream media is owned and controlled by corporations which disseminate propaganda to promote their selfish interests at the expense of the vast majority of Americans. In the past, we’ve paid with our money and slow deaths from poisoning from pollution etc and lack of health care. Now they’re sending the flower of our youth to die for their oil. We must put an end to this corrupt system! Now is the time!
Posted by Rene' on Aug 3, 2003 at 6:46 PM It is so good to read that many Americans think Michael Moore does a great job.I have just finished “Stupid White Men” and I¥m absolutely shocked about the facts Mr. Moore presents.He should never stop telling the truths.
Posted by Daniela on Aug 3, 2003 at 10:44 PM Having consciously missed the self congratulatory oscar ceremony I did however read reports of it. These reports indicated that Mike Moore had indeed been booed by the crowd. So it was good to read an alternative view of the situation, a view I might add went some way in restoring my faith in humanity.
Harry Williams
Posted by Harry Williams on Aug 4, 2003 at 5:15 AM Michael Moore is doing what I haven’t known how to do, but always needed to do. How can I help?
Posted by amanda holt on Aug 4, 2003 at 6:02 AM Tom, what an arrogant and ignorant person you are. You think I give Saddam the benefit of the doubt?
It’s never been about that—it’s about FABRICATED stories like these. They found these blueprints back in 1990!!! 1990!!!! The UN inspectors haven’t found anything since and the team that was guaranteeing us they would find WOMD still hasn’t found any.You’re acting like a jerk, you know that. My name is Neil and you just like to take potshots at people who have a different opinion from you. I explain my side but you started the name-calling, not me. My fu’s were childish and unnecessary, I’ll admit.
You resort to the black and white, if you’re not for this war, you’re against the US, so go wander off in a minefield or better yet, go over to Iraq to hug one of the soldiers who will probably end up dying unnecessarily and for this dumbass president’s cause because they don’t want us over there.Ever stop to wonder just how pissed Saddam is now that he’s got nothing to lose and just what his revenge might be? That’s a horrible thought.
Posted by neil on Aug 5, 2003 at 1:37 PM Del from Oregon, page 1….you mean like Ronald Regan????
It’s heartening to hear so many Americans on this site reflecting the same views as the rest of the world! It gives the rest of us hope that the dangerous criminal currently in the Oval Office will soon be thrown out!
MM…big up yaself!!!!
Posted by Paul Delahunty on Aug 5, 2003 at 3:51 PM -
register a new account »Posting Security
Also by Joel Bleifuss
- Block ’Em, Sock ’Em
- Buy Back Our Government
- A Specter is Haunting Dems
- Bailout Bandits
- Building Utopia
A new documentary profiles the rise and fall of a Depression-era utopian experiment in the Bronx. - To Boycott Israel…or Not?
Naomi Klein and Rabbi Arthur Waskow debate whether divestment will bring peace to the Middle East.
Popular Discussions
- The 9/11 Faith Movement
Many Americans believe 9/11 was a conspiracy by the U.S. government
1979 posts since Jul 11 06 - What’s the 411 on 9/11?
891 posts since Dec 21 05 - Democrats: It’s the War
659 posts since Nov 1 05 - Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
462 posts since Jun 19 06 - A Fundamental History Lesson
The rise of National Socialism proved politics and religion don't mix
427 posts since Oct 10 05
© 2003 In These Times | Reprint Policy | Privacy Policy | Powered by Expression Engine | RSS Feeds
