On day five of the war, it was supremely ironic that network television viewers had to tune into the 75th Annual Academy Awards ceremony to hear voices that questioned the wisdom of the Bush administration. Rumblings of protest began on Saturday. At the Independent Spirit Awards (the award ceremony for independent films) in Santa Monica, California, Maggie Gyllenhaal, the star of… return to article
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Reader Comments (2170)Tom from Denver - “FACT: There WAS a full recount of the Florida votes after President Bush took office. He DID win the majority in that state.
From MMís Stupid White Men:
In what appears to be a mass fraud committed by the state of Florida, Bush, Harris and company not only removed thousands of black felons from the rolls, they also removed thousands of citizens who had never committed a crime in their lives-along with thousands of eligible voters who had committed only misdemeanors. ÖÖ before long 173,000 registered voters in Florida were permanently wiped off the voter rolls.
8,000 additional Floridians were thrown off the voting rolls because a false list was supplied by another state, a state which claimed that all the names on the list were former convicted felons who had since moved to Florida.
It turns out that the felons on the list had served their time and had all their voting privileges reinstated. Ö.others on the list had committed only misdemeanors-such as parking violations or littering. What state was it that offered Jeb and George a helping hand by sending this bogus list to Florida?
Texas.
George W. Bush would officially be credited with receiving 537 more votes than Gore in Florida. It is safe to assume that the thousands of registered black and Hispanic voters barred from the polls might have made the difference if they had been allowed to vote-and cost Bush the election? Without a doubt.
A July 2001 investigation by the New York Times showed that of the 2,490 overseas ballots that ended up being included in the certified election results, 680 were considered flawed and questionable. Bush got the overseas vote by a ratio of 4 to 5. By that percentage, 544 of the votes that went to Bush should have been thrown out. Got the math? Suddenly Bushís ìwinning marginî of 537 votes is down to a chilly negative 7.
ÖKatherine Harris had planned to send out a memo to her canvassing boards including a reminder that state law required all ballots to have been ìpostmarked or signed and datedî by election day. When it was clear that Georgeís lead was rapidly shrinking, she decided not to send the memo. Instead she sent out a note that said ballots ìare not required to be postmarked on or prior toî election day.
What caused her to change her mind-and the law? We may never know, since the computer records that showed what happened were mysteriously erased-a possible violation of Floridaís Sunshine Laws.
Posted by linda z on Mar 30, 2003 at 3:59 AM Thank you Mike for having the guts to speak what you believe in—those who are knocking you are not the real Americans you are. You have the ability to question something they do not know how to do. They simply sit back and hang their tongues out like idiots and say yes, yes, yes to the harm that is being done to our nation and the world by an a group of power hungry people in power today. check out their web site—you made it on their #1 hate list—you know the party that declares that god is on their side and the people who hold everyone up to a double standard.
I am proud to be an American—one who can think on my own and not be lead by mass histeria. I still do not know why Iraq—well I think it is a power grab and the fact that they have oil. I am proud of the American service men and women who serve our country—but the asshole(s) who put them at perile and the entire world at perile—well, I do not think much of them.
Posted by Furlo Bengtsson on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:06 AM Tom – enjoy your beers boy – although I disagree with much of what you have said – you are far less insulting than many who agree with my point of view! It’s also nice that things have got a little less ‘rude’ today than they were yesterday (hope my strong feelings on this matter don’t make ME screw it up now!)
The people that really make me despair of the human condition (pro or con – ‘man in the street’ or ‘President’ or ‘aids’ or media presenters) are those that appear to be afraid their testosterone count will drop if they use their brain for 5 minutes ….
I strongly feel Bush is a liar and a thief (damn – knew I’d do it!) – his arrogant and callous remarks on Thursday’s address would only convince those that are easily conned. And Blair – what happened to him? – he used to be someone I respected. They are a disgrace to their countries. Bullies are bullies and liars are liars – no matter their country of origin. Along with the vast majority of the world, I despise Saddam for his tyranny and murdering ways, Bush for his lies and arrogance, and the Americans and British who sing praises to warfare, Bush and Blair. As someone in another thread said – “May God forgive you all – because many of us never will”.
(Continued in next post)
Posted by Spike on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:10 AM (Continued from last post)
To those annoyed about Michael’s speech at the Oscars – the irony is that what he did will have made many Thousands of people see the ‘Bad ol’ US of A’ (as it’s become known) in a much better light – purely because SOMEONE used an opportune moment to bypass the ‘self-imposed’ censorship and bias of the American media. Whilst most of the world is against this war, most of the world is NOT anti-American (honest!). We know that sometimes our leaders get into a position where they don’t listen to us, and it would be stupid to blame a Nation for the actions of those in power and the media and propaganda that support those actions. It’s not like you are all sitting down and doing nothing about it - the marches continually give me cause for hope – as do some of the posters here - and – of course – Michael himself
Incidentally - I find Aaron Brown of CNN to be the most annoying News presenter I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. Whilst most American coverage of the war is unsurprisingly biased in favor of the ‘coalition’, Mr. Brown plunges new depths with his undisguised support for the invasion of Iraq. I was particularly amazed to hear him say “you may find the following unsettling” before showing a scene of people burning an American flag, where no such comments have preceded the countless videos of bombing and killings. He even had the nerve last Monday night to accuse the Iraqi media of using propaganda - not realising he and his employers are just as guilty. I am not surprised to find hypocrisy is as common to your reporters as it is to your Government. “CNN - the most trusted news source in the world” - not likely - just wish I could get the BBC in my area of Canada. I’ve HAD to stop watching CNN now – couldn’t stomach a Country I am quite fond of being made to look like idiots by their media.Spike – Vancouver, Canada (been here for 3 years since planning my own invasion from the UK).
Posted by Spike on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:11 AM Well Linda, if MM said it then it must be true!!!!
B.T.W. Do you have any of your own opinions or are you only here to pass on the opinions of others?
I agree with Paul & his comment about your copy & paste tactics.
Here’s a new link for you to copy from or is this view not quite what you were looking for on your next post?
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
Posted by Red on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:11 AM Linda Z from New York,
Since you obviously believe everything you read, hear, and see from Michael Moore. I will direct you to the April 2003 issue of “America’s First Freedom” in which there is an article that points out a number of lies and inconsistencies in his documentary “Bowling for Columbine.”
And as I have mentioned before, your beloved Michael Moore himself has stated that Saddam Hussein is an evil tyrant that needs to be removed from power. There you have it…....
Posted by Tom on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:15 AM Spike from Canada -
Well said!!! Thank you for being articulate and well constructed in your comments. Again, I’m sorry that so many people hate America. If we went wrong somewhere, please let me know! As I mentioned before, I feel better about the future of my sons, and indeed the world, than I did 2 weeks ago. I love America, my homeland, where I am raising my family - so I must be an Imperialist dupe…..
You made alot of interesting points, but the one that stands out is that you “despise Saddam for his tyranny and murdering ways, Bush for his lies and arrogance.” How are these men to be dealt with?? Bush can be voted out of office. In fact, our leadership changes without bloodshed every 4 or 8 years, as is the case in many countries. Saddam cannot, on the other hand, be voted out of office. So what is your solution? Do you think that if the United Nations ask nicely, he will remove himself from power?
I appreciate your comments.
Posted by Tom on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:28 AM I want to congradulate Michael Moore on his Oscar and say thank you for getting the non-fictional story out to the world through your superb documenturys. What I dont get about Americans is why you people want to go over to Iraq and liberate them so they can live in a democracy were they can have free speech. When the people of the U.S are not able to have free speech because bush supporters are calling protester unpatriotic. That is very un-democratic. Also why are the people of the U.S wanting to spend 50 billion dollars on a war with Iraq. Couldnt you spend 50 billion dollars on health care or education and then have the best health care and education in the world? I think that American instead of going with the flow of the gov should sometimes question the gov because that is how dictatorships start.
Posted by Matt on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:29 AM Michael, you are a true American,
Thanks to the rightwing newspaper
asking the readers to send “black-email” i have your website.Keep the passion going!
greetings
Posted by William Guevara on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:32 AM Spike,
You also mentioned Aaron Brown from CNN. I actually think he is doing a fine job, as are Lester Holt and Dan Abrams from MSNBC.
In fact, the coverage of this war has been a resounding victory for journalism. The press is enjoying unprecedented access to the front lines and the facts. You can’t spin a story if a journalist is there to see it as it unfolds. Moreover, the coalition has awared 4 “embedded” slots to journalists from Al Jazeera.
There has been equal coverage of good news and bad, of Iraqi casualties and of ours, of pro-war sentiment and of anti-war demonstrations.
I personally think that this has been the media’s finest hour.
Posted by Tom on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:36 AM thank you for helping bring a more complete picture to current events.
Posted by jason on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:43 AM Michael Moore is giving us a voice. We must support him as we summon the courage to speak out ourselves. I’m certain the majority of Americans (and Canadians) know the truth about the American Government. Now is the time to do something about it.
Posted by ryan on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:45 AM Tom,
Now that the American press is reporting a biased view of the war that appeals to you, suddenly the press is doing a resounding job of journalism.Whatever happened to getting a balanced view of events by listening to European news coverage?
I find it very simplistic that you really believe our news media, so much in the pockets of this White House, will offer an unbiased coverage.
Perhaps you are afraid of seeking other news sources in order not to upset your pre-conceptions?
Posted by Peter on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:45 AM THERE SHOULD BE MORE PEOPLE LIKE MICHAEL MOORE, MORE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE GUTS TO STAND UP AND SAY WHAT THEY THINK, ESPECIALLY IN A COUNTRY WHERE EVERYBODY TALKES ABOUT FREEDOM OF SPEECH, BUT NOT MANY ACTUALLY SPEAK OUT…
THANK YOU MICHAEL MOORE…
Posted by EMILY on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:47 AM And in light of the fact that oil contracts have already been awarded (and blatantly to firms with White House ties), it’s amazing that some people still say this fight is not a bloody war for oil.
Yes, America currently imports only a small percentage of oil from Iraq. Why not just go grab it all for free in the pretext of saving Iraqis from Saddam?
Posted by Peter on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:52 AM Peter from Atlanta, GA-
Thanks for your input.
I have also spent a fair amount of time watching the Canadian Broadcasting Corp and the BBC on C-SPAN. Sorry, those are the only two international news sources that we get on our cable package.
So I’m simplistic just because I follow the news and think that they are doing a professional job? I guess I’m simplistic, then…
I wish I had access to the wide array of international forum that you are obviously privy to down there in GA….
Posted by Tom on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:58 AM Hi Tom, Red and co.
As is the case with much of the world – things are not quite as simple as we would like. Remember again it is not “we” (meaning all Americans) as much as the public face as presented by your Government and the media.
It’s unfortunate that the attitude of your Government has caused so much ill feeling from the ignorant towards Americans – as I said – a country I am quite fond of. The list of ‘where you went wrong’ could be quite a long one – I refuse to trawl through history for you - I believe you are bright enough to know a lot of the bones of contention that many ‘non-Americans’ have with ‘Americans’. Don’t get me wrong – many countries (including my own native UK) have made some despicable mistakes over the years (don’t get me started on the Northern Ireland thing!) – the problem MAY be (I’m not really sure) that when you are the ‘top dog in town’ everybody is going to be watching extra carefully – so when Junior opens his mouth and trips over his lips it doesn’t really paint the country in a good light. As I said – not everybody is so stupid as to hate all Americans for what some have done over the years. By extension – that sort of attitude would result in every country in the world hating every other country.
(Continued in next post)
Posted by Spike on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:01 AM (Continued from last post)
My solution to the problem – hey – I’m no rocket scientist – it’s just that you would like to think that the controllers of the free world could come up with something else other than a technique, which has failed on a number of occasions for the American people.
I know I’ll get lambasted for these (perhaps ill conceived) ideas but ….. whilst I cannot possibly know what could or could not have been done (I don’t work for the British Government, your Presidency or the UN) I can’t help thinking that either increasing the number of inspectors DRASTICALLY (I’m talking hundreds here!) for a few more months would have allowed more of the world to ‘get on board’ – but even then we may have had to resort to war (but you wouldn’t have been going it alone). Another option (and I’ve seen this ‘James Bond’ type scenario mentioned on a number of other boards) would have been a WELL THOUGHT THROUGH assassination of Saddam, and many of his cohorts. Sounds a bit implausible – but surely trying any option would have been better than this.Anyway – wish REALLY putting the world to rights was as easy as typing this mail – wish I was more eloquent and better able to put into words what I am feeling - reality sucks eh?
I’m now on the beers myself – regards and goodnight to you all - Spike.
Posted by Spike on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:02 AM Tom,
That was not meant as an insult. In fact I admire you for staying in a chat room with overall opinion overwhelmingly against yours. That means you have the courage to stomach opposing views and offer reasoned argument.Just that we all know you can’t always believe all you hear in the press. Therefore one should expect that our news media will not be entirely honest.
Far from it, our media does not show the dead Irqai innocents…
Posted by Peter on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:04 AM OK - too many beers now - “Spike,
You also mentioned Aaron Brown from CNN. I actually think he is doing a fine job, as are Lester Holt and Dan Abrams from MSNBC.
In fact, the coverage of this war has been a resounding victory for journalism. The press is enjoying unprecedented access to the front lines and the facts. You can’t spin a story if a journalist is there to see it as it unfolds. Moreover, the coalition has awared 4 “embedded” slots to journalists from Al Jazeera.
There has been equal coverage of good news and bad, of Iraqi casualties and of ours, of pro-war sentiment and of anti-war demonstrations.
I personally think that this has been the media’s finest hour.”
I’m not gonna rise to THAT (or have I just?) - hee hee - chow.
Posted by Spike on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:06 AM Although I do not believe that Mr. Moore’s comments were called for, I do not believe that he should be blacklisted. To use a ceremony that was created to celebrate films as a forward of one’s own political agendas is completely unethical. I am completely against Mr. Moore’s opinions, but as an American he has the write to speak them as do I. This is why I am not saying that his opinions are right or wrong because opinions cannot be right or wrong. Perhaps another book would have been a much better place to speak out Mr. Moore’s opinions rather than a ceremony celebrating 75 years of film.
Posted by Stephen Chronister on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:08 AM The UN sent a clear message when they didn’t enforce their own resolutions.
The coalition answered.
Posted by Angie on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:11 AM Stephen from Arkansas,
Where else can anyone who questions this war air their opinion? The regular media does not give you a chance. Moore had to grab his chance, and by God he delivered his message!!!
Posted by Peter on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:13 AM Spike from Canada - that was an outstanding missive.
Peter for GA - thanks for clarifying. I agree that you cannot, and should not, always believe what you read/hear in the press. I think we could agree that this is probably just as true for the international media as it is for ours.
I’m out - time to be with my wife, boys, and have a couple more coldies…..
Posted by Tom on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:14 AM Congradulations to micheal moore, the epitome of free speech and strength, you are the better side of what many percieve americans to be. You have achieved so much, by envoking the stength in other people to take a stand and think twice to what is being heard and understood by the media. To think as rational individuals.At least there is some form of media that i can access, where i truely belive is rational and logical, non fictitious even, to the events that are occuring to his day.
yes i can say that i live in fictious times, where reports of what is happening domestically in my ity due to the effects of the war, are not being addresed or prevented, rather ignored.. what society is waiting for is this eruption of violence. It the fear that seperates us, which is being fed by the media coverages that are obviously censored to endure biased, and a postive opion towards the war so that this schism does occur.
i Have no problem we my fellow human being and how they want to identify themselves to be; either ideologically, culturally or poltically, but i have a problem with coersion to assimlate into something, where a few believe, that it is in the majorities ‘best interest’. Mr Bush, Howard and Blair, what utopia are u trying to create, where death in pure massacers is the stepping stone to your objective, are these the values you want us to imitate?
what furture do you want to be evolved, when all that is forming is fear, confusion and violence. this is not democracy. And to me democracy is as fictious as the stories that the puppets of capitalism have told.
Posted by elizabeth on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:29 AM Peter,
He has his website to speak out also. I have been there and am there now. I am also pretty sure that he could have gotten an interview if he truly desired one. I am almost positive that the only reason he spoke his mind at the Oscars was that he expected a large viewer pool to speak his political ideas and most of Hollywood is “liberal,” whatever that is. If all of the audience were to stand up and applaud then that would send a message to the viewers that his beliefs are overwhelmingly common and accepted. The sad thing about this is that people tend to think that if something is commonly thought, then it is right. It had nothing to do with whether or not he could get his message across any other way. If people want to hear his message, he has plenty of ways of speaking it other than the Oscars. I have to disagree with you on this one.
Posted by Stephen Chronister on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:31 AM Carl Snodgrass is an ignorant bufoon. How dare he make the presumtion that education and healthcare are not universal rights?
So now, only the wealthy may have a decent education?
so now, only those with a platinum credit card may have the priviledge of treatment if they become ill?
Mr Snodgrass, a mentality like yours will drive us back to a cast system! A feudal age of two groups; the super-rich and the miserably poor.
Have you no soul?
Again, I say, you are a Neo-Liberal idiot and a bufoon. I pity those who are so unfortunate to “benefit” from your wisdom.
I especialy pity anyone who has had the most auful fortune of knowing you, Mr Snodgrass.
I wish you a happy life in your world of ego-centric fantasy,
good day
Posted by Cmilo Diaz-Pino on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:34 AM Well when Bush holds democratic eleections and opens the US up to weapons inspections for all those weapons of mass destruction and stops US terrorism world wide maybe he’ll have the right to point the finger at another undemocratic terrorist nation but for now it’s all a bit difficult to see how he and the US regime are any better!!
Good on you Mike and full credit to In These Times for reporting this story.
Posted by Guthrie on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:39 AM Well folks, I guess that’s all. It’s time for me to go to sleep. I’m a bit tired. I’m sticking to my opinions. I may be wrong. You all have the last word.
Posted by Stephen Chronister on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:42 AM Mike wins the Oscar! -
Support Voluntarism and non-violence - Film Bowling for Columbine 2:This is a very timely concept from a private citizen for a documentary/reality TV show about compassionate competitors PROMOTING NON-VIOLENT
Spike Lee, Michael Moore and/or you and others should team up to produce “Bowling for Columbine 2” outlined below. A Real answer to Real Beverly Hillbillies:
It is time for Reality TV to make life better for real people, including the audience and contestants.
Enclosed below is a copy of the letter I sent to President Carter But to take advantage of the moment, I propose that the next documentary you or one of your associates or contacts produce follow my and/or other individuals attempts to push forward such a paradigm shift through the ìmine fieldsî of the media empire. Perhaps you know of a professor or student in grad school who might like to take this on as a thesis or project. What better way to expose the exploitation of violence and conflict by the entertainment industry at the expense of the AMERICAN Psyche? Furthering the discussion and modification of violence, guns, the NRA, and disharmony in our culture is a life and death mission for all of us. We could involve concerned citizens of all ages and backgrounds from all walks of life. Wholesome, compassionate, civil, and humane. Possible title:
“EXTREME KARAOKE SURVIVOR”
Over the last few years, I have grown more concerned with the lack of moral leadership in America and the shortage of good role models for our children. We know from our own experience that happiness and fulfillment cannot be found in the continued accumulation of high-tech gadgets, ìbest scoresî on video games, or by not being voted off an island. True contentment comes only when we extend a helping hand to our fellow citizens.
I would like to propose the Carter Center family explore the possibility of fusing two events currently in the news, the presenting of the Nobel Peace Prize and the ongoing popularity of ìrealityî television. I suggest that together we act as a catalyst to encourage interested sponsors and production companies to develop a series of real ìreality showî competitions. Each team could be given a local social problem to solve such as hunger, poverty, educational or environmental problems, neighborhood support facilities in need of repair, other critical infrastructure needs, etc. .
Posted by TIMOTHY ALBRIGHT on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:51 AM “I just happen to believe in one person, one vote, and you count all the votes.î
-Well just to let you know, Mr. Moore, the votes were counted and counted again and those were the determined results.
And while you donít give up your citizenship at the door of the theater, any reasonable person in a position such as yours (note reasonable), realizes that you possess the means to have a lot of influence and should make use of that responsibly.
But by your comments about a “fictitious president” and these supposed “fictitious reasons” you show that reasonable and responsible are words obviously missing from your vocabulary.
All you accomplish by ranting like a lunatic is to show just that you are a lunatic and show just how naive you truly are.
According to a Gallup poll: ‘The latest polling shows that 71% of Americans favor the war and 27% oppose it, virtually identical to the support measured over the first weekend of the war.’ Another instance of your mistaken information, when you say there is no one but talk radio and Fox News who support this honorable endeavor. But I forgot, you only consider your colleagues in Hollywood as worthy or important enough to have an opinion. Not us dim and “common” Americans.
Lest I forgot, the Dixie Chicks are opposed to the war as well. Based upon that ìfactî alone, we should heed their word and call our troops back immediately. Instead of working to further the cause of freedom and democracy around the world, we should continue to allow a terrorist to stay in power, who continues to pose a threat to us and a certain threat to the Iraqi people. Fortunately President Bush is significantly wiser and less naÔve than you Mr. Moore, and luckily he wonít make those mistakes. Thank God we have such great leaders in our government and in the world as President Bush and Prime Minister Blair. Keep on spouting your non-sense Mr. Moore, youíve already convinced me to avoid your work, I can only hope that the more you spout the more people follow suit.
Posted by Kenneth Gardner on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:00 AM this fat fuck should be ass raped and fed to all the dumb fucks laying in the streets of america. Try supporting you troops, if USA is so ficticious get the fuck out. I’m sure Canada will take you.
Posted by Brian on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:06 AM I won’t send my daughters to this war, but thanks for sending your children. It’s not about oil, it’s about gasoline! WAKE UP AMERICAN AND SMELL THE BS!!!!!!
God Bless MM
Posted by George Bush on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:08 AM All of you for this war are mis-led, ignorent of the facts, and just about as stupid as your president and current RACIST republican clan leader, George W. This is all a sham…this war is injust…and you pro war people are out of touch with reality…YOU GUYS ARE USING BIN LADENS LOGIC IN ATTACKING IRAQ…Iraqi freedom my ass!!!
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:14 AM A fictitious election? When will people get over this, come on now, it’s over, that’s it, you can’t change it.
Mr. Moore is no hero, the men and women who have and will continue to fight for this country are hero’s, the teachers, fireman, and policemen who help this country but are severely underpaid are hero’s, the volunteers who help people each day are hero’s, highly paid directors, actors, and writers getting an oscar are not, they are nothing more the entertainers, we need more education and less entertainment, we pay people so much to make a horrible movie, yet we can’t even pay our teachers, or give children a decent education, why in the hell does this make any sense? Don’t praise someone for standing on a stage making a speech, praise the people who save lives, fight for freedom, help others, educate children, and actually get of their butts and do something!
Posted by Kay on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:20 AM Steve says <All of you for this war are mis-led, ignorent of the facts, and just about as stupid as your president and current RACIST republican clan leader, George W. This is all a sham…this war is injust…and you pro war people are out of touch with reality…YOU GUYS ARE USING BIN LADENS LOGIC IN ATTACKING IRAQ…Iraqi freedom my ass!!!>
Look whose showing their ignorance now.
Posted by Red on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:23 AM Kay,
Michael Moore is not an entertainer. He presents fictional documentaries…and Bush won the election on a Supreme Court decision…not on a vote count…Michael Moore is trying to educate you not your kids. The media is entertaining you with their sencorship and their glorification of killing other people. You don’t even ralize how hypocritical it is to bomb Iraq especially what happenned after 9-11…Saddam is an ass but had nothing to do with it…Michael Moore is compationate, he loves America, and we should not call him names if we do not agree woth him…I can see how tolerant people who want war are, they usually reform to calling others names who do not agree with them. We DO need more reality and less fantasy by our media and our government…this is why we need Moore, Michael and others to speak out to counter balance fear this administration is using to control your emotions…If you are for this war, then you are for terrorism.
Posted by John on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:32 AM RED,
I’m fighting fire with fire…it’s the Bush Doctrine is it not? It’s what you pro war blind idiots are doing. I don’t care, I’m pissed, so piss off and have fun killing innocent Iraqis - fricking hypocrats!!!!
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:33 AM Sorry Steve,
I will not debate with someone who stoops to bullying & name calling to get their point across.
Posted by Red on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:38 AM Thanks Red
I found the link intriguing, and enlightening, and it was very relevant to my empassioned (and admittedly tongue in cheek) waffle about the presentation of “facts”.
I took alot away from it; especially the questionable use of editing. (which I will pay particular attention to the next time I see the movie).However in spite of the exposed half-truths etc…. The article - for me at least - doesn’t detract from the highly commendable sentiment in MM’s work.
When I first saw BFC I was surprised at what I PERCIEVED to be a surprising lack of a sense of what is tactful and appropriate on Charlton Hestons behalf, but never thought it to be a major element in the film. Similarly the gun homicide stats, while central, - again for me at least - served in an illustrative capacity rather than a concrete, irrefutable one.
Please feel free to set me straight anytime.
regards Jim
Posted by James Stewart on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:39 AM As i scrolled through this miss matched pile of comments by psychos (the fuckers who think health care and education is not a right) and logical thinkers ( who know stuff is fucked up in your government ) it became obvious to me that if America falls from it’s high chair the whole jar of smashed peas is fucked. All those logical thinkers need to come together and take back “America”(or whats left of it) from the money sucking monopolys.
I was in the states when the “war ” started and frankly I was never once shown (on TV) anything in the media that said that war was a bad thing. And and a big park of democracy is knowing both sides of the story.
Sorry to break it to you but America is not a democracy!
Its a cocked up outlaw regime and it will fall.
Posted by Kyle on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:42 AM No Problem Red! I learned it from our Republican Administration…Nothing personal to you…I just don’t think allienating the rest of the world, going into the heart of the Muslim world, securing geo-policial resources, protecting Israel, and openning the recruitment dept od AL-qaeda is worth attacking Iraq…that’s why I think you pro war people are idiots…but no offense…because you are either with me or against me!
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:43 AM Kyle,
You are right, there is no way Bush will pull out of this…the media, our govenrment and certain big buinesses are all in a circle, jerking their self intersts…The Republican right the way it is today is ugly, racist, and MORE dangerous then Osama bin Laden and Saddam combined…WAKE UP AMERICA knock, knock, something aint right!!!???
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:49 AM interesting story with fascinating links. very emotional for me, as i had no idea that things like the ‘blacklist’ were occuring. it moves me that people can be so ignorant, as to think that they are protecting free speech by organising a blacklist of stars that speak their minds. well written article.
Posted by jason culford on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:49 AM Irony is, all of you supporting George Bush and this war are just pawns and puppets dangling at the ends of his ropes.
When all is said and done, the oil contracts are not being awarded to you and your friends, but to George Bush’s.
The drunken bush daughters are not fighting this war, while their less fortunate peers are sent to die unjustly by their father. Some are your family, friends and neighbors.
Bush will be sheilded from terrorism that will ensue in America, while you guys and the rest of us walk in fear at shopping malls and theaters.
It’s a true testimony to strange human nature that there are some who do not see the evil nature of this current regime.
Posted by Peter on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:51 AM The other day I was watching CNN on cable and some newsreader wiped a fake tear out of his eye and proudly announced how wonderful it is to love in a country where everyone has the right to express their opinion without fear.
Hey, America, I have news for you! The only opinions that you usually hear expressed are the ones big business wants you to hear.
So when you get the chance to hear someone like Michael Moore, for god’s sake LISTEN!
Posted by Gillian In Oz on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:51 AM James,
I have no problem with MM & his opinions. When he appeared on Oprah to promote his film, while I didn’t agree with everything he said, he made some good points.
It is however troubling to me that some celebrities seem to take every opprotunity, no matter how inappropriate, to push (?) their views on others.
Posted by Red on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:52 AM Red,
Maybe Hollywood should push it’s views on us….god knows our administration pushes theirs and the media channells smile and nod the whole time…Goodness where are we headed?
Posted by John on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:56 AM No, we can’t send the Bush daughters there…they may snort up some anthrax thinking it was coke…or they may be too drunk to realize that handgrenade is an avocado…
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:58 AM Thanks John, for putting things in perspective for Red.
It’s ok for the White House to use CNN, FOX, Rush Limbo, etc to overwhelm us with propaganda, but not ok for MM and the rest of us to use every little and rare opportunity we have.
Posted by Peter on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:01 AM It is time for a regime change. The Bush-Laden Family has taken over our country in a coup and is now attempting to take over the world Hitler style. It is no coincidence that the eagle is the national symbol of the US and Nazi Germany. The current administration must be removed from power by all legal means necessary. If that fails then it is up to the people of the US and the rest of the world to remove them by any means necessary. The economy is collapsing here and we need to get it together without exploiting the rest of the world. The US is not a land of freedom and democracy, because in order live the great life we have, the rest of the world suffers.
Of course Rummy Rumsfeld knows Saddam has chemical weapons, because he sold them to him, but we also now know that the 911 attacks we’re performed by this current administration. The FBI sat back and intentionally let it happen, so that the Bush Sr CIA trained and US funded Al Queda would give them an excuse to waltz into any country they want. Bush-Laden is the terrorist and we must continue to fight terrorism by removing him
from power.
Posted by demo suzuki on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:02 AM ...Some good points, some odd, and some angry. I’m not against Republicans, I’m for smart leaders, truth and justice. I’m not sure if this adminstration is engaged n the propper actions to making this world safer. Peace through superior firepower is contradictory.
Also one word for those French folk…thanks for giving us the Statue of Liberty, thanks for educating Thomas Jefferson in Paris so he could bring Democracy here, thanks for helping us fight the British to gain independence, and thanks for the tuff love a few weeks ago at the UN.
Thanks.
Posted by Mohammed on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:04 AM I, like most, can think for myself & don’t need celebrities to “represent” my feelings for me.
To answer your question, I have no idea. I am very torn over the current state of affairs. While I didn’t want to see a war we are there. I really feel that if the UN had done their job & forced Saddam to comply rather than continually rewrite resolution after resolution everytime he decided to stonewall we wouldn’t be in this mess.
Let’s face it, no gov’t is perfect, but I thank God everyday that I was born in a country where I can sit here & debate with you without fear of severe repercussions.
Posted by Red on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:06 AM Demo Suzuki,
Yeah, there is evidence that 9-11 was alloud to happen as an excuse to launch a greater campaign of global domination…I don’t think they thought that the towers would come down completely…
Un-fricking beleivable…Bush was the perfect candidate, due to his stupidity, for being a rightwing 4th Reich puppet.
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:10 AM Thanks Mike, for demonstrating what patriotism is: upholding and fighting for truth, justice, and inalienable rights.. including free speech.
Support your troops… demand they come home NOW and be given FULL veterans’ rights. And don’t let Dummy and Rummy throw our sailors and soldiers of ANY war away.
Posted by PeacefulPatriot on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:13 AM RED: “Let’s face it, no gov’t is perfect, but I thank God everyday that I was born in a country where I can sit here & debate with you without fear of severe repercussions.”
This may not last much longer if the gov’t gets its way re: sedition/treasonous comments and forced deportation of the commentator.
Posted by PeacefulPatriot on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:16 AM Sounds logical that since they allowed 9-11 to happen and it exceeded their worst expectations, they would feel compelled to execute their 9-10 agenda on 9-12 regardless of logic and opposition.
Posted by Peter on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:16 AM Many people through history have spoken eloquently in support of the First Ammendment. Barbara Streisand is not one of them. Interesting choice of quotes, Mr. Bleifuss. I agree that what Moore said is simply wrong, and accept that he was out of line, but we need outrageous jerks like him to challenge the truth, if only to force us to affirm our beliefs by examining them more closely, that we might better defend them against the loud outcry of inane stupidity that comes out of Hollywood against our nation.
Posted by Ed on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:20 AM Maybe the small squeaking protests from the self-aggrandizing so-called artists of the film industy will begin to stop fearing their possible loss of the material, “good life”, and begin raising their prestigious voices against the policies that may silence them anyway. Many of these, “stars’”, movies either cryptically or blatantly address the very issues and the consequences arising from them that are occuring in actuality in this once, “free”, country. The poor slobs that pay in droves to watch you all perform thus empowering you in illimitable ways, (if you’d only be as creative in reality as you are on the silver screen), are way ahead of you as far as sticking their impoverished necks out to at least raise their voices in defiance of the crypto-fascistic megalomaniacs who pull the strings of the indifferent, avaricious multi-millionaires who have illegaly imposed their murderous, bloodthirsty, infantile, treacherous, and world-disrupting policies upon the American people. True patriots, unlike the, “chickenhawk”, war mongering sycophants who befoul the sacred spaces of government…do not visciously and aggressively invade a sovereign nation based on false evidence which, even werre it true would comprise but a fraction of the same allegations which this regime has seen fit to continue and renew with malicious vigor and impunity!
To finally read the truth about the so-called, “Michael Moore vulgarity”, affirms my own guess about what really happened. That is why I navigated to his website. Would that more of Moore’s fellow entertainers and so-called journalist brothers and sisters had the patriotic courage to speak the Truth and ask the questions required of the citizenry of an ostensible democracy. One of the ever-growing obscure but aware concerned and outraged folks living on the edge because of the corporate gluttony and rapacity that’s been allowed to eviscerate the economy of this country is very pleased, proud, and envigorated by the example of Mike Moore, a public figure much reviled yet feared despite his mild demeanor and attendant cut to the chase, fearless manner of exposing the corruption that robs the majority of Americans and other citizens of this planet of a decent living, access to basic human needs such as healthcare, housing, and education for their own bloated self-interests, and through taxpayer dedication of governmental expenditures to the most heinous military machine the world’s ever known.
Posted by Dom Mastroserio on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:26 AM Have you noticed that people arguing on the side of Bush/pro war etc. can only spew insults and snide remarks but seem to have difficulty presenting any facts to support their view?
example: Why were Saddam’s human rights attrocities not an issue when he was rumsfeld’s buddy?
hawk: Michael Moore is fat!
and so on
Posted by Steven on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:30 AM I am a patriot. I love my country and am willing to defend it. The biggest threat, from my view, is from an administration whose president usurped the principle that makes this country great: Our right to vote and choose who will lead this nation.
Thousands of people had their votes refused in Florida in the last presidential election. Their names were struck from the voting lists by Kathrine Harris. Her objective was to remove names that were the same or similar to felons. But to insure the votes were not counted, Mr. Bush sued. How can we trust someone who wants to hold the most powerful office on this planet so badly that he is willing to deny people their most important right as Americans?
As a patriot, I will defend my country from a fraudulent administration that appears to put financial gain in front of world opinion. An administration that is willing to risk the lives of our soldiers to try to fix the mistakes of a failed foreign policy that has given us many of the problems we now face.
George W. Bush may be new in DC, but many of the men in his administration are old school. Dick Cheney. Donald Rumsfeld. Paul Wolfowitz. Collin Powell. These guys have been meddling in the affairs of our country too long.
As patriots, we need to protect our country from further harm by these fellows. This war and the military machine in the middle east is not the answer to our dilemma. We must support our soldiers by not using our troops there. The current campaign is not defending our country.
Itís time for a regime change in America.
Posted by Matriotic Wave on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:33 AM My main point here is to discuss matriotism.
A matriot is someone who loves this planet and is willing to defend her from threats. A matriot understands that all people are part of the human family and deserve the blessings of God. A matriot respects the natural cycles of Earth and realizes the importance of maintaining ecosystems. A matriot knows that war and violence are not the answers to solving conflicts. A matriot is a pacifist, an educator and a healer.
Mr. Bush may consider himself a matriot, too, by claiming he wishes to rid the world of the threat of terrorism for all people on the planet. That is a noble goal. Though he may be sincere, he is ignoring the real threats that face the human race and the root causes of hatred towards America: exploitation from globalization and over-consumption. Thus we have policies that neglect the welfare of our fellow global citizens to insure corporate profits. We have corporate crooks cooking their books and stealing retirement funds from hundreds of thousands of people. We have habitat destruction and air and water pollution that threaten the health of all that depend on a clean environment.
A matriot knows that when you drop a pebble in a pond, ripples will spread everywhere. The bigger the rock, the bigger the shock wave. We canít drop bombs and not expect to feel the blast. Matriots know that this war and the foreign policy behind it, are causing the tidal waves of resentment. Eventually they will reach our shores.
Matriots pledge allegiance to our Earth and the life that has made this place possible. And to all of creation, on which we depend, one planet, under the sun, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Matriots are patriots. We love and defend our country, but know that only by loving and defending our planet will we ever truly know security. So speak out, fellow matriots, and talk with other patriots. Engage, educate and help stop the military machine. Let us wage peace instead.
Posted by Matriotic Wave on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:34 AM Steven, your’e right…I’ve asked again and again, let the pro war people justify the war rather than abuse personally those who question it.
Their response? More rambling and insults…
Posted by Peter on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:35 AM Red,
Celebrities obviously are not representing your views, so you need not be upset.
They represent MY views and speak out for ME and others of like mind because of the access they have which I do not.
If you do not like what they say, flip channels, just like I never watch CNN or FOX News anymore.
Simple.
Posted by Peter on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:45 AM I don’t watch CNN or Fox News Either…I try to watch MSNBC, but even they are not displaying balanced reporting.
Posted by John on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:49 AM As we live in the same continent, I’m glad that people can manifest their owm opiniom on amy issue.
I use to live in ansterdam during the 70’s and there was so many Vietnam veterans who want not get back to America even to see ther aquictances cause whem they where there, in the Vietnam, was whem they find out how manipulated was the Americans, but I hope that time are over, Unluck I could not be in America as they never permit me to get dowm there, but I was always in touch with the real America, and me as a globetroter, my conclusion game to the point that your people is the blindest around. My regards. Lula Balie.
Posted by Luiz Carlos B. Oliveira on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:51 AM As far as the remote comment goes… If I want to hear news & views I’ll tune in to CNN or Fox or the many hundreds of other shows that are on 24/7.
Thank you & Goodnight
Peace to all
Posted by Red on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:52 AM Al-Jazeera.
I love how our government says al-jazeera’s reporting is irresponsible and violates Geneva Conventions! As if this administration can speak unbiasly on the topic of international agreements as it has cancelled Kioto, START (Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty) and bi-passed the UN to name three. How is the viewing of American POW’s different then the viewing of Iraqi POW’s surrendering, and those in orange suites at Camp X-ray?
One thing Al-jazeera does not have that our news channels in America have is sensorship…and this scares the Bush admin and the Ra-Ra-Ra right winging neo-conservatives and their ilk.
The hypocracy is monumental and absolutely breathtaking!!!
I love America. This adminstration loves their pockets.
Posted by Mohammed on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:56 AM Mohammed:
You got it right, but don’t forget the Israeli insiders and spies working to push things their way! Wolfowitz, Perle and the other “CHICKEN-SHIT-HAWKS”
Yeah, us Americans, we is st-st-st - Dumb!!!!
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:00 AM I don’t think Americans are “dumb”, we are mainly uninformed and beleive our “elected” official’s “good” intentions based on what they tell us…
Checks and balances anyone?
Posted by Mohammed on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:04 AM im ashamed that as a reasonable, informed, politically active american, i need a grandstanding self promoter like michael moore to voice my views for me. he’s the only one who has the balls to do it though… and while i don’t particularly like him or his approach, i have to applaud him for breaking the mainstream media wall and putting forth the ideas we’ve all been trying to get across for 3 years… in 45 seconds. HIS COMMENTS ARE NOT FRINGE LEFTY CRAZY-TALK. THEY ARE JUST ACCURATE.
Posted by embarrased american on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:16 AM I love America, but America is the best country in the world only for immigrants from poor countries.
If you are widely travelled as many of us have, you will realise that numerous small countries, though not as wealthy and militarily strong as we, are actually better managed, have far better quality of life, less violence, less hatred and corruption. And better informed than we Americans.
Yes, I know what you neo-conservatives will say next - “why not go live there”? No, cos I have the responsibilty to make my own country better and livable.
I have the responsibility to vote and remove the current despot in the White House come next elections.
Posted by Peter on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:18 AM John~
So what if Bush didn’t win by vote of the people, which I think he did, it doesn’t matter, it’s over, so get over it. I didn’t call Mr. Moore names, I simply stated that he is not a hero from getting up on stage and saying a speech.
Posted by Kay on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:19 AM Kay,
I hear what your saying, but in a way it does matter that Bush did not get elected in a proper way. Especially since he may be leading us into and abyss.
Posted by John on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:24 AM Kay, it’s ok if the generals and other mouthpieces of this administration do it 24/7 on all channels, right?
Look here, every dawn of a new Dictatorship and Fascism starts with a clamp down on freedom of speech, undue arrests, attack of opposition voices and press censorship.
Initially people go along blindly, but before they know it they have lost all their freedoms then they wonder what happened.
Do you see that in the current trend of events coming out of the White House and AG Ashcroft’s office?
Posted by Peter on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:29 AM I’m astonished at how this conversation has carried on, quite frankly… Personal thanks to Tom, arndt, et al, who took the time to “raise the bar” beyond name-calling and baseless rhetoric.
I teach in Canada, and my own interest in this war (acknowledging that this sounds like sick voyeurism on my part) has quite a bit to do with the MEDIA’s role in it.
On the first night the missiles started raining down on Baghdad, I was struck by the difference between the CBC’s coverage of events and that of the big American networks. Most notably, the CBC anchor was “ad libbing” live…being passed pieces of paper and saying “umm…er…I’m not sure if this report is true or not…” etc. —By contrast, CNN reporters continued to read scripted material from off of the teleprompter. It “looked” a lot more professional, but also a lot more carefully crafted and “spun.”
Even my grade 12 students were mentioning to me, unsolicited, that the war coverage on CNN was ridiculously one-sided… These are kids who have been weened on the big US networks…
The other night I watched 5 minutes of “Extra”, or some-such “tabloid entertainment” show… I was amazed at the brazen “war infomercial” I was watching. I thought to myself, “surely the world will see through this… will notice without question that the proverbial ‘Emperor has no clothes’.”
Then I came home tonight, “caught up” on the postings here (a new favourite pass-time), and found a clearly intelligent person such as Tom defending the US news coverage of the war.
I’d like to draw all of your attention to an interesting website: http://www.fair.org FAIR is the group for “Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting”... They have quite a bit to say that I think would be of interest to participants in this discussion.
(continued in next message)
Posted by Tim on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:37 AM Finally, I would like to address “red”, and others who continue to reference the “truth about Bowling…” website(which I DID read… thanks for the link)
The idea that a documentary is “true” or “false” doesn’t really wash with me. Clearly Michael Moore has used his craft as a filmmaker to skew things to his perspective… Even before any editing takes place, the director is influencing the audience’s opinion by how they frame-up a shot (for instance, you can make a politician look regal or diminutive by shooting either a high or low-angle shot)
The POINT is not whether “Bowling for Columbine” is “true” in the strict sense of the word. What the film does is expand the spectrum of the political dialogue, as witnessed by this website… Michael Moore’s art raises as many questions as it answers…it forces people to wrestle with what THEY believe is true, and to find evidence to support their beliefs…
When is the last time you saw a big-budget Hollywood film that made you want to really ENGAGE and ARGUE passionately about something?
I appreciate this discussion… It extends daily staffroom conversations I’m having into the global forum. I’d love to meet some of you people.
With burgeoning hope,
-Tim
Posted by Tim on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:38 AM Come on Bleifuss, I watched the Academy Awards. Virtually everyone was booing Moore, and the Hollywood elite, which the cameras panned, sat tight-lipped and angry. It’s very Stalinesque of you to paint a different picture. Even as a lefty, you should be upset the egomaniacal Moore took a grave issue and made it about himself.
Posted by Doug on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:40 AM Pete, Kay, John, Everyone….but, but Ashcroft and Bush are good white Christain Americans!! How can they be fascist? I think that is what many would say…Pete you are right on…we are on our way to a fascist system!!
Have some of you pro war, pro Bush clones even realized that the very document that gives us this freedom of speech is being stepped on and over by Ashcroft and the Ameircan neo-nazis?
We are witnessing the Israelification of America!!! Car bombs here we come!!!
We need to launch a peacefull intifada against Bush and his evil doers.
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:41 AM To all of the uninformed minions who support Operation Iraqi Liberation (OIL). Get off the couch, turn off CNN, go to the library, read about the American intervention in Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Nicaragua, El-Salvador, Guatemala, Chile, Iraq, and. Panama. You will find that the United States have trained more soldiers that have been charged with war crimes than any other developed nation. The U.S. put Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, Samosa, Pinochet, Noriega, and sponsored most terrorism to protect economic interests overseas. Perhaps the greatest tragedy about all of this is that some people believe that the U.S. is doing the right thing. Did you know the U.S. did not ask congress for relief aid to repair the destruction they caused in Afghanistan? Did you know they started a civil war in Nicaragua by convincing thr opposition party not to participate in the elections, thereby overturning a democratic election? Did you know they helped overthrow the democratically elected government in Algeria causing over 500,000 deaths? Did you know U.S. gave Iraq permission to invade Kuwait in 1991, stating that it was an “Arab affair” (Gillespie 1991). Did you know that all of Bush’s top aids are either Jewish, or ex-oil executives, (both of whom have much to gain by the invasion of Iraq)? Did you know that Israel has been in breach of U.N. resolutions for over 30 years? Did you know that THEY have wepons of mass destruction? Did you know that Ariel Sharon, George Bush Sr., George Bush Jr., Donald Rumsfeld, and Colin Powell are currently charged with war crimes? Did you know that they plagarized a graduate students 6 year old university paper, and used it as its primary evidence in the security council to bomb Iraq? Did you know they are surrounding Iraqi cities right now, preventing aid to civilians in the hopes that the starving masses will over throw the government? Did you know that the U.S. spent sabatoged efforts to prevent the genocide in Africa so they would not get involved in “another Somolia”? To those of you that are too lazy to pick up a scholarly journal, or a book written based on de-classified information, or someone like Michael Moore who is trying to do his duty as an American - then I say turn off the Chicken Noodle News and learn something, or keep your mouthes shut. Remember, It is better to stay quiet and look stupid, then to open your mouthes and remove any doubt.
Regards
Adam
Posted by Adam on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:42 AM I was extremely glad to finally read something positive about the remarks made by Michael Moore at the Academy Awards. For all those war crazy losers who say he “should be taken out and shot” etc., you people are mentaly disturbed. And you also must be completely blind to see that what your government is forcing your country to do is wrong morally, socially and just totally. Bush was NOT actually elected by the majority of the people of the US, and he sure as hell wasn’t elected by anyone else yet he is bullying the world into going along with this bullshit excuse for a war. I am proud that some countries actually had the balls to stand up to him even though it may hurt them economically. Yes September 11th was a terrible day for everyone around the world, but that isn’t an excuse to invade an unrelated country. Bush seems to spout the same rhetoric over and over. NO Iraq was not behind Sept. 11. No matter how much he wants you to believe that it was. This war is about oil (how interesting it is that Dick Cheney’s company gets to rebuild the Iraqi oil fields after the war! No conflict of interest there!), and the fact that Saddam tried to kill Bush senior. Bush Jr is just a sad, stupid little man whos taken his taste of power and now is going crazy with it. By starting this war and killing innocent Iraqis Bush is just slowly sinking down closer to the level of terrorists and Saddam. What difference is there between bombs that fall from US planes, and terrorists, who kill innocent people? Oh wait I know, the innocents Dying in Iraq are Iraqi’s not Americans. Thats the only difference I can think of.
Posted by Laura on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:45 AM Tim.
I love your intelligence and insight. But I am one to raise my insults to the level of ignorance and hypocracy witnessed today…it’s tough to be nice when there are so many USA right wing hypocrats engaging in reverse terrorism…
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:46 AM I’m just sick of watching CNN’s reality show of a war. Every time I turn it on and see real time footage of battlefield goings on I can’t help but think that somewhere theres a big fat guy drinking a beer and getting off on it.
Posted by Laura on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:53 AM It’s a little late, the war has already started, and the people over there fighting don’t need to think that the American people are against what they are doing, which is following orders. You say CNN is biased, I don’t watch it anyway, but this article is just as biased, all news is somewhat biased.
Posted by Kay on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:56 AM You know, you blind followers of Bush and his little business venture, who so vociferously denounce anyone who has an alternative viewpoint, remind me of one thing and one thing only…I always wondered as a kid how Hitler and his Nazis got the people of Germany to follow along so blindly…its a great history lesson come alive! Thanks for participating and clarifying it for me.
The fact that you rednecks believe Bush and the FASCIST monied interests are on your side is the greatest Shakespearian tragi-comedy of the modern era. “Yea, follow them blindly, for ignorance is bliss!”
Would it kill you to look up the definitions to the words; democracy and fascism????? Or maybe you just don’t have the guts yet to stand up and declare yourselves fascists, because you haven’t got the go ahead from your fearful leader.
Boy, thank that person who commented on how these people expect us all to blindly, unquestioningly, get in goosestep behind our (p)resident in his little business venture, and YOU KNOW these were the first people who were crying for Clinton to be put in stocks on the White House lawn, at the very first hint of impropriety. Thank you all for writing and showing support for MM. They isolate us so well most of the time
Posted by Carl LaFong on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:58 AM Just because you disagree with the war itself doesn’t mean that you hope the troops don’t suceed. Everyone should hope and pray that they make it back ASAP.
Posted by Laura on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:59 AM Steve,
I appreciate your sentiment. I, too, have been guilty of getting drawn into ‘less than constructive’ arguments with friends, neighbours and colleagues over this war.
It occurred to me, though, that if my frustration turns into a destructive force—one that further alienates me from dialogues like this one, then I’ve become part of the problem.
Opinions run so high on this thing that friendships are being lost (crass to even mention, in light of LIVES that are being lost…) I don’t want to see the “sides” in this dialogue become more polarized than they already are. I think most of us don’t really believe we live in a “Star Wars” world of “us good—-them bad”... Sadly, though, it’s easy to start thinking that way when tempers get involved.
I’m trying to picture the leaders involved in the war right now engaging in the sort of dialogue we’re having here… or better yet, sharing a coffee together somewhere…
It seems like the moment we become obsessed with “winning”, humanity has already lost.Cheers from Canada,
-Tim
Posted by Tim on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:02 AM Fascism noun [U]
a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control and extreme pride in country and race, and in which political opposition is not allowed
Posted by Laura on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:08 AM I was pleased to read this article, and hear another take on what happened at the oscars. I admire Michael Moore for speaking his mind in this time of lock step “patriotism” and intolerance of dissenting opinion. He deserved the award, and I’m glad that he used the opportunity to speak out.
Posted by sarah on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:14 AM Laura,
Thanks for the definition. How appropriate!Kay, I support our troops in bringing them home ASAP, so as they do not become statistics in Bush’s blind global crusade. To think of all the beautifull lives that will be destroyed due to Bush’s war is very usettling.
God/Universe/Buddha help us and may God/Universe/Buddha help Bush in any way possible.
This is all so dangerous.
Posted by Mohammed on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:17 AM What about all the lives destroyed by Saddam, or all the lives that would have been if he has hit us first? Bush is our top general, he is one of these troops that you support.
Posted by Kay on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:22 AM Kay,
You say, “What about all the lives destroyed by Saddam” So what!! Does that make it ok for us to do the same? Plus when he was killing all those people “WE” supported him. Our government has destroyed more lives ten times over that of Saddam (Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Nicaragua, El-Salvador, Guatemala, Chile, Iraq, and. Panama), and the reason why our boys are there is because a Jackass president and a neo-fascist administration is sending them there…these guys follow the US Constitution Article 2 Section 2 which says he is our commander and cheif…does this mean that the Commander and Cheif is always correct…it doesn’t say that Bush is God…this “military” leader had his dad pampered his ass by placing him in the air national gaurd while the lowere and middle class kids caught bullets in Vietnam…now more middle and lower income kids will be catching more bullets for our clowns in office.
Stop being such a stupid, American and WAKE UP!!! The rest of the world is on to Bush, and we should be as well.
Yeah OK, lets drop some 9-11s on the Iraqis…
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:32 AM Also Kay, what makes you so sure that Iraq will attack us? You have proof, 100% proof that we will be smacked? Or are you just spewing forth what your leader is telling you?
The chanses that we will get bitch slapped is higher now! Yeah, I feel more secure!!
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:37 AM -A great civilized nation democratically elected a fanatic demagogue, who preached war. Actually, he did not really receive the majority of votes,
but somehow, his ascent to power was arranged nevertheless.
-Soon after assuming power, he manipulated a dramatic incident in order to tighten his grip upon the country and prepare for attack on smaller nations.
An immense propaganda machine turned his “enemies” into devils, the incarnation of evil.
-The call for war enabled him to unite the whole people behind him, to silence all oppositon, gradually abridge human rights, overcome the economic
crisis and embark upon a voyage towards world dominion.
He was of course, Adolph Hitler. “Uri Avnery”Who has won? Fear has won. The terrorists have won. Thank you Michael for slapping some sense into the American psyche through your book, your movie and
your words of wisdom. I fear as you do for the American people. With the passage of Patriot Act 11, the Bill of Rights will no longer exist and the next
agenda of the evil, usurper in the White House will be the devolution of the Constitution. Presently, America is involved in the genocide of the Iraqi people
and the horrific, needless deaths of the American and British troops who are being led to the slaughter. The six month cost of the war at $75 billion will
be wrung off the backs of the ordinary American citizen - billions, which should be used to prop up your tumbling economy and cure some of your social ills.
Mankind could possibly find the cure for cancer, AIDS and SARS. It could be used to end world hunger and homelessness. Instead it will be used to maim, kill
and destroy. When will you be able to show your face in the world again? You need to re-read President Roosevelt’s famous speech in which he warned about
the danger of an out-of-control military industial complex which presently composes your administration. You need to ‘impeach’ the rogue, warhawks in your
White House NOW! You need to save yourselves!
Again, thank you Michael for your bravery, your determination to save your country and your compassion towards the people of the earth.
Posted by Marly on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:46 AM Congratulations Michael Moore !
I was hoping that someone would have the courage on OSCAR’s night to speak against this unjustified war and against George Bush. My husband and I were elated when we heard your speech , this is democracy. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not know the meaning of democracy . Few months ago , they did not trust their government . Yet now , they are willing to be puppets to the government and the media that is owned by Corporate America. (or are they one)
Let me clarify some of the things that we hear from the mainstream media . Saddam Hussien is a brutal dictator who gassed his own people…. These people were warned of the bombing , for three days leaflets were dropped asking them to leave the area.but they chose not to. By the way, the mustard gas was supplied by the U.S.
The Iraqis that you see that are so willing to get rid of Saddam are the Iraqi elites who chose to leave Iraq because , Saddam was rationing supplies making sure that all his people were being fed.
One of UNICEF own worker who visited Iraq regularly said and I quote ” No Arab leader has done for his country as Saddam has done for Iraq”.
Free Health Care for one and Free Education , and if the students excelled and wanted to go abroad for further education ; he paid for that too.
It is sad to see us wasting our tax money on arms and weapons of mass destruction , which by the way is what we supposedly are ridding Iraq of.
What hypocracy ! Bush wants to free the Iraqi people and give them democracy. Maybe someone should explain democracy to him.
Posted by Maria on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:01 AM I love what Actor James Woods said about Moore on Good DayLA live.
He had a right to say his opinion..BUT who wants to see some fat guy give it at an awards show, and why did he have to practice it on others before the show. He said he also asked Moore at an after party who would he then like to see in the White house. More said.. maybe a woman? Woods then said he asked him who?? He didnt say anything.. and woods said he then went over to the Canape table table to feed his fat face..LOL
Posted by Makes_You_Go_Humm on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:08 AM After reading the ?debate? contained herein, I feel compelled to make an observation. Many people feel impelled to share their opinions, regardless of whether that opinion has any basis in fact. Many people seem to feel it is perfectly acceptable to post insults, vulgarity, and threats of violence. Yet, many of these same people deride Michael Moore for articulating an opinion for which there is evidence.
Posted by Chris on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:48 AM If you read most of the comments made so far, you will notice a scary pattern. The location of the pro war or anti-moore coalition is limited to the USA. Specifically mostly remote
areas and Los Angeles where the education system is at an alarmingly lower level than the rest of the nation. If these closed minded simple thinking crusaders for oil want to think they are in the right and the majority, they better think at least once or a lot more. There isn’t one comment from another nation that is in favor of this war. We will stop the terrorists. The terrorists are bush and all the stupid white men who are exploiting the poor and the powerless around the globe. And the inevitable greedy nature of Americans will always be fuel for their wars. Americans and wealthy people in general need to be more conservative and practical. There was a story about a California family who got a huge energy bill for thousands of dollars during the old west style robbery of CA by Texas. During this fictious energy shortage in 2000-1, energy rates soared illegally. The family who got the huge bill were outraged that they had to pay so much to heat their pool 24hrs a day. This is an example of why people want to kill americans.
Posted by demo suzuki on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:30 AM I notice a couple of people who commented on this story have said things along the lines of taking out michael moore and shooting him. I also notice that most people commenting on this story are Americans. You are supposedly the greatest ‘democracy’ in the world, part of democracy is conflicting opinions, and the right for those opnions to be heard even if you don’t like it. So if you’re going to say to the world, ‘Yes, we are the land of the free and the best democracy on Earth’ how about you start fucking acting like it, instead of a bunch of school kids. Bush has started a campaign to Westernise the Middle East, which basically means Americanise it. It’s gonna be a crappy world if it’s being run a bunch or primary schoolers and a guy whose favourite children’s book was published when he was 17…thank you Michael Moore, for not only speaking your own mind, but millions of others around the world and for giving me some shred of hope for the world.
Posted by Alex Smith on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:36 AM To the American people: get used to soon be just another democracy in the world. Your time as a “super-power” is up. Even this war won’t change that fact… Europe will save you!
GERMANY - THE GREATEST NATION IN THE WORLD
Posted by Proud German on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:48 AM Thank God! that I don’t seek my entertainment from Hollywood.
It is trash Like Moore who have turned Hollywood into a satanic cult off pure filth.
Posted by Kurt Myers on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:56 AM Dear Mark. For us, MM is the last hope for restauration of democracy in the US ! It’s bad in your country ! You are brainwashed at schools about US history ! Real good books are forbidden in your libraries ! Lot’s of your ‘free press’ newspapers are owned by people who sell the bombes that kill the Iraqi children ! You have WWII concentration-camps in Guatanamo Bay ! More than 40.000 people die each year in your country beacse of poverty ! The world is overloaded by dirty porn-spam from your country ! Lot’s of countries in the world are still a complete mess due to US inteventions (without UN-permission) ! This already started in 1898. Let’s make a short list of US interventions since WW II. Human rights, Washington style: China - 1947, Italy - 1947-1948, Greece - 1947 to early 1950s, The Philippines - 1940s and 1950s, Korea - 1945-1953, Albania - 1949-1953, Eastern Europe - 1948-1956, Germany - 1950s (US liberated the imprisoned nazi’s !!), Iran - 1953, Guatemala - 1953-1954, Costa Rica - Mid-1950s, Syria - 1956-1957, Middle East - 1957-1958, Indonesia - 1957-1958, British Guiana - 1953-1964, Italy - 1950s to 1970s, Vietnam - 1950-1973, Cambodia - 1955-1973, Laos - 1957-1973, Haiti - 1959-1963, Guatemala - 1960, France/Algeria - 1960s, Ecuador - 1960-1963, The Congo - 1960-1964, Brazil - 1961-1964, Peru - 1960-1965, Dominican Republic - 1960-1966, Cuba - 1959 till now, Indonesia - 1965 (500,000 killed !), East Timor 1975 (200,000 more !), Ghana - 1966, Uruguay - 1964-1970, Chile - 1964-1973,
Greece - 1964-1974 (US-president siad: “Fuck your Parliament and your Constitution,” Bolivia - 1964-1975, Guatemala - 1962 to 1980s, Costa Rica - 1970-1971, Iraq - 1972-1975, Australia - 1973-1975, Angola - 1975 to 1980s, Zaire - 1975-1978, Jamaica - 1976-1980, Seychelles - 1979-1981, Grenada - 1979-1984, Morocco - 1983, Suriname - 1982-1984, Libya - 1981-1989, Nicaragua - 1981-1990, Panama - 1969-1991, Bulgaria 1990/Albania 1991: Iraq - 1990-1991, Afghanistan - 1979-1992, El Salvador - 1980-1994, Haiti - 1986-1994. Oops, we’ve forgotten: Iran, Turkey, Nigeria, etc.
We’re sick of it ! The Roman empire collapsed in the end. Even the dinosaurus died. Why ? Because their environment changed. Let’s change the environment for Human rights, Washington style !
Robin.
Posted by robin on Mar 30, 2003 at 12:00 PM Voltaire would turn in his grave to read and hear the comments concerning Michael Moore. I would find it quite amusing if it wasn’t so sad. So many people claim that one is entitled to ‘free speech’ but it appears only if one agrees with you-otherwise shut-up. I am glad that Michael Moore has his ‘15 minutes of fame’; however I have an attention span that is longer than that and I enjoy what Michael Moore has to say however long it takes. We all need a ‘Jimminy Cricket’ and Michael Moore is mine.
Posted by Beth Aitchison on Mar 30, 2003 at 12:37 PM Americans, you don’t f*cking know how brainwashed you are.
Posted by peqi on Mar 30, 2003 at 1:31 PM When I read most of these coments I can¥t believe how fucking stupid some of you Americans are! Is that the brainwashing of the medias or what? Start thinking and start listening carefully to that bullshit your president is speaking day by day!
Posted by Markus on Mar 30, 2003 at 1:40 PM The Americans are in for a reality shock: Operation Iraqi Freedom which would ‘liberate’ the iraqi people will in fact mean the death of many. No ticker-tape parade but gory streetbattles will await the the invading troops in Baghdad. The ‘embedded’ truth portraying the US as liberator will reveal itself as artfully camouflaged propaganda. Just as instead of garlands the ‘liberators’ were greeted with bullets in most cities they wanted to liberate. So let us return to the old terminology.
collateral damage = civilian casualties
pre-emptive strike = agression and invasion
war = a quagmire.
And maybe we should call the Iraq war the War on Reason.
The big question is not, will the Anglo-American invasion conquer Baghdad (they will), but will Syria, Iran and Turkey be drawn into the conflict. We could see very tricky developments. It certainly will be a future shock for those dreaming of ‘planting the seeds of liberty and democracy in Baghdad’.
Posted by Jean Rousseau on Mar 30, 2003 at 2:25 PM great! its a wonder how all the michael moore haters have to resort to name calling and derisive comments about his appearance. better yet is the all american answer to anything; fuk him, he should be drug inta the street and shot! i guess they are right, not agreeing with the leader that the supreme court elected and following blindly like a zombie is just downright wrong. so let me now turn myself into the pro war citizen… “saddam’s a bad guy, he kills people, he’s nuts, he’s got nukes, he’s a dictator who persecutes his people.” wait a second was i talking about bush or saddam, oh well its all the same.
Posted by jarlbartar on Mar 30, 2003 at 2:49 PM Hey, Angie, from,(?)...If your well thought out, “what”, reply to my admittedly non-redacted, cut-off because of space considerations comment was indecipherable to you perhaps it’s because I, unlike those in power who have the time and PR teams to polish the double-speak, flimsy rhetoric that you’re accustomed to hearing do not have that luxury…I’m sorry I made a few grammatical faux-pas. However, if you just could’nt see through the typos and were unable to understand the meaning of my disquisitive commentary, perhaps it’s because you are one of those who really are literally, scared silent.
Put simply, I was attempting to squeeze in too many of my individual criticisms of our present state of disgrace. Remember, each person’s opinion is only a reflection of how probative and questioning his mental faculties are, (the duty of all citizens in a democracy). If you, like most conventional, party-line, gullible modern-day soon to be vassals of the, “New World Order”, are so imbued with frightened cupidity that you have a stop of the mind which disallows your own ability to patriotically question the policies of a death machine tyranny, (so transparent and obvious, so historically unoriginal in it’s BIG LIE style of coercing what I call the, “three monkey”, compliant populace)...well, God help us all! Instead of asking, “what”, of a concerned citizen’s attempt to voice his concern about the murder of children and innocent people for the unacceptable yet never admitted truth that our so-called leaders’ real motives are the profits of war and Asian petrochemical resource ownership, among other Machiavellian soon-to-be-felt-by-everyone destruction of the Constituion and Bill Of Rights…Think for yourself. Your powers of discernment and intuition are as good, if not better than those who’ve, characteristically chosen to allow power to corrupt them, as Lord Acton once said, and then when their power is absolute to corrupt them absolutely. So, Angie, I apologize for not presenting a polished commentary you’d more easily understand, but all I can say to you and others like you is…USE YOUR GOD-GIVEN ABILITY to not accept whatever is spoon-fed to you by our government and it’s media apologists and mouthpieces…and think for yourself.
Posted by Dominick on Mar 30, 2003 at 3:08 PM Thank you Michael!
You were right because the war against Iraq is a crime!
How stupid or ignorant are Americans who think this war is only for “peace” and freedom for the Iraqi people?!?
Shame on them!!!
Posted by Stefan on Mar 30, 2003 at 3:16 PM Why the hell are so many Americans such mindless idiots. A man, who isn’t even legitimately elected President, starts a war to gain control of the oil, and these moron support it because the are told to. For humanity’s sake people, start thinking for yourself. Freedom and democracy is wasted on people who can not think for themself.
Posted by BA on Mar 30, 2003 at 3:27 PM Great story. Is there any way you can send me Michael Moore’s email address or other contacts? I am an anti-war writer and journalist and I’d like to write him. Thank you.
Posted by Partha Banerjee on Mar 30, 2003 at 3:30 PM All these Anti-Moore Pro-War tough guys should be shot and pissed upon twice. If these ignorant, arogant dimwits are allowed to continue… this world as we know it will cease to exits. For those Pro Bush zealots, remember, there are approx 6 billion human inhabitants sharing this planet, 85-95% of them are against Bush’s WAR, just wait on till you really piss them off!
Posted by Honest Ed on Mar 30, 2003 at 3:31 PM Never forget the history of the times of
Senator Joseph MacCarthy, the many
“Committees on Unamerican Activities,” and the caving in of our
government that happened under a well-
meaning old man, Ike Eisenhower.
“Under God” came into the pledge of
Allegiance and “In God We Trust” onto
all of our paper money. Those were
horror-filled, embarrassing times for this
democracy.
The difference this time is that these
censorers are directed from the top by
an “un-elected” president and his crazy
Attorney General.
VIVE LA FRANCE! and bring home our
troops.
Posted by Marcel Stratton on Mar 30, 2003 at 3:38 PM Partha Banerjee go to his web-site at http://www.michaelmoore.com/
Posted by Barry on Mar 30, 2003 at 3:40 PM Makes_You_Go_Humm on 3.30.03 | 3:08 am from WA State >>>I love what Actor James Woods said about Moore on Good DayLA live.>>>
HmmmÖ.James Woods? Oh, heís that guy who portrayed Giuliani on an HBO special. CNNís website included a comment on how Woods thinks that Giuliani is a great hero. After Giuliani left office, he gained control of the administration of the $70 million Twin Towers Fund to benefit families of firefighters and cops who lost their lives on September 11. The City of New York was administrating the funds through a city run non-profit. Giulianiís private organization increased the administrative cost from $0 to between $1.168 million to $2.255 million annually. I donít think that James Woods is such a great judge of character.
Posted by linda z on Mar 30, 2003 at 3:48 PM Finally Linda Z has a thought of her own!
How refreshing! LOL!
Posted by Angie on Mar 30, 2003 at 3:53 PM Since Saddam took power in 1979 he has been responsible for over 2 million deaths.
400,000 Iraqi children die every year from starvation.
Women are tortured & raped on a daily basis.
Speak out against Saddam & get your tongue cut out.
I suggest you pick up a copy of Con Coughlin’s book “Reign of Terror” or Latif Yahya’s “I was Saddam’s son” so you can read all about this horrible, horrible man & the atrocities he & his regime have forced on the Iraqi people
Posted by Me again on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:37 PM I cannot believe how many people discredit Michael Moore for his views. It’s a sad and sick nation (if any of the posters are Americans) that would want him silenced because he speaks a truth you do not want to hear. Shame on all of you who spoke nay against him. Check your heads.
Posted by James Parkwood on Mar 30, 2003 at 4:43 PM Enough of everyone’s quoting uncorroboratable statistics or beating the drums of, as Samuel Johnson may have put it… scoundrelous patriotism. Are you really so gullible that you believe whatever source your ideological proclivities knee-jerk you into espousing? Do you really believe, after looking around you seriously and into your own lives, that something is NOT seriously wrong with this country? That propaganda is something only other, non-American countries use to brainwash their citizens? If your life is that good or you that inculcated and ignorant, there’s really no point in trying to enlighten your ilk. If you who are uncertain tend to hope your blind faith in this nation is justified, open up a real historical treatise enumerating and exposing the true nature of our nation’s innumerable and continuing policies of exploitation disguised by the rhetoric of propagandists shouting above the confused crowds about what a great country this is. To whom is it a great country? Was it great to Native Americans? To African slaves? To indentured servants? To drafted boys who never returned from questionable, imperialist wars? And find out who it is, who do these purveyors of the American Dream work for? The answers would shock you, hopefully, into the realization that American interests are so narrow that only a very small minority of ruling, well-hidden elites benefit from the genocides, wars, enslavements, interrments, intolerances, humiliations that their hired bullies perpetrated upon generation after generation of our ancestors. I say this because I want those wonderful words in our Constiution and Bill Of Rights to become more than just words and symbols. They can become the reality of everyday life…but only if we begin to think and do for ouselves and our communities without the heavy hand of our politicians forcing our every decision.
Posted by Dominick on Mar 30, 2003 at 5:22 PM Hello everybody (especially Arndt from my beatiful home country)!
I wanted to conctate that is really unfair to compare us Austrians, just because most of us think George W. is a nutcase, to the foolish and serioously mad Nazi people who lived here 60 years ago. And i¥d like to say that every kind of fanatism, no matter of Muslim, Christian, American or Iraqi is to be fought against. And STOP telling me that it¥s a just war! And try to watch and reads Ty stations and newspapers which are not controlled by your government which simply doesn¥t tell you the true numbers of dead soldiers and Iraqi citizens (and Kuweit shopping malls, probably destroyed by a Tomahawk, like the planes shot by a Patriot???)!And Austria is not just Strudel and Edelwei?! Of course, our role in international politics is negligable, but we¥re not alone—> France, Germany!
we and the German people are grateful to America for liberating us from the Nazi government and helping us to rebuild our country, but I don¥t think that it¥s the UN(ergo our) task to rebuild a country that BUSHI DESTROYED! Did you see the bugdet for the war? some 2 millions for reconstructing a country where powerplants and water supplies have been destroyed by American bombs? So W. proposed to let the UN pay for his fuckup. NICE TRY, GEORGE!
And think of 11.9.1973 in Chili, and what happend at the Swine bay and during the McCarthy government!Greetings From Austria
PEACE
MATTHIAS
Posted by Matthias on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:29 PM I agree Dom. I would much rather listen to you ramble on into pointless abyss than someone who actually has something important to add to the debate.
I’m gone.
Peace
Posted by Angie on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:32 PM Actually, Angie, the US doesn’t rule the world. In fact, most of the rest of the world dislikes America intensely. I have spent time in the US and have many American friends, and I am constantly amazed by how many Americans know so little about the rest of the world, and how Americans are not aware and do not understand that America is loathed by many many countries.
Please understand me here - I am not saying that the American people are disliked - but America as a global entitly is hated. The US has the attitude that it can do what it wants to who it wants with impunity. Saddam’s regime is evil and terrible. But what Israel is doing to the Palestinians (funded by the US) is horrendous - why aren’t you in there stopping them? What happened on September 11th was truly appalling - but many Americans funded Irish terrorism for many years. It’s different when the boot is on the other foot isn’t it?
America is not the greatest country in the world. Only Americans think that. The natives of other countries think their own countries are the greatest. That’s right and proper. America is not the world’s policeman and does not have the right to interfere in how other countries operate.
The US is rightly outraged at the way Iraq is treating captured troops - but pays no attention to the breaches of the Geneva convention regarding the Al Quaeda suspects at Guantanomo Bay. And more British troops have been killed in this lousy war by American mistakes than by Iraqis.
Michael Moore was right to say what he did, and I applaud him for it. I suggest all you dissenters read Stupid White Men, and then reconsider your opinions. And ask yourselves - if freedom of speech is part of what makes America great, why are you seeking to deny it to people who don’t agree with you? And if America really is so great, surely it can’t be hurt by a few people disagreeing?
Posted by Kirsten on Mar 30, 2003 at 6:55 PM I am going to single out Angie, because she represents what is wrong with our country. Angie is a teenager, probably from LA, CA, who watches ‘american idol’ and ‘friends’. She has never had to learn anything, because she knows that some pathetic desparate guy will do everything for her. She likes to shop and talk on her cell phone that her parents pay for and she reads at a third grade level, if at all.
The way to keep people obedient and happy is to undereducate them and give them some money and TV.
TV is the cheapest babysitter you can hire. Shows like ‘Entertainment Tonight’ have broadcast images of war and destruction backed with a club beat soundtrack. The media reports that Iraqi soldiers are disguised as civilians. This will help them explain their systematic genocide of Iraqis and anyone else who “looks like” a terrorist. Wake up
everyone… this is WWIII. Bush-Laden=Hitler and its time to rise up and crush his redneckery.
Posted by demo suzuki on Mar 30, 2003 at 7:12 PM In my fervor, I’ve forgotten to thank Michael Moore and his people for setting up a forum wherein a belated debate can be aired publicly, by the real government of these United States…we the people. This, especially in light of the deafening silence eerily permeating the hallowed halls of Congress and the Supreme Court during their supine acquiescence… that chilling lack of a free exchange of ideas which is what we elected them to carry out on our behalf. As for Angie, whether or not she fits Suzuki’s profile or mine, (agent provocoteur), it all adds up to the same thing. An already jackbooted scoundrel is cutting into some serious and/or semi-lucid attempts by real people to freely exchange their own ideas, predictable or not, onto a public, albeit virtual arena. It’s just too bad events such as MM’s acceptance speech at the Oscars seem the only available catalysts for this ongoing and quickly intensifying argument. For now that the dogs of war have been unleashed and the Constitution’s been practically voided and we’ve been sucked into an internationally illegal war in our name…well, our founding fathers fought a revolution for lesser perceived injustices, let’s leave it at that for now.
Posted by Dominick Mastroserio on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:03 PM Red >>>B.T.W. Do you have any of your own opinions or are you only here to pass on
the opinions of others? I agree with Paul & his comment about your copy & paste tactics.>>>You may have noticed that as soon as I posted my opinion regarding two non-violent
solutions to the Iraqi conflict and a link to a page illustrating the dangers of using depleted
uranium in ammunition, Paul said, ìLinda stop!!! The US has been sanctioning Iraq for years.
Unfortunately now, as always, the ones who suffer from these actions are the very ones who
Are being starved & tortured.î Later, he left the forum.First of all, the 15 member UN Security Council was responsible for issuing the
sanctions against Iraq, not the U.S. To be quite frank, I am one of those people
who believe that the sanctions were a good thing. In fact, the Nov 12, 2002 UN Oil for Food program report indicated the nutritional value that supplies the sole rations for 60% of Iraqis has doubled to 2,200 calories per day since 1996. According to the World Resources Institute, Iraq ranked 29th (1-100 scale) on its list of locations at risk to potential exposure to poor nutrition in developing countries. In fact the Iraqis are doing better than some other countries like Pakistan (56), Guatemala (57), the Phillipines (52) or Haiti (72), or India (85). I believe that the sanctions should have been expanded to include a provision where the United Nations would have direct control over the production and sale of Iraqi oil.I also believe that the sanctions should have also been coupled with a provision that called for an
end to state sponsored violence. If the Iraqi government wanted to have funds, it should
have been required to allow independent outside human rights groups to monitor compliance.As far as the link to the site indicating that MMís Bowling for Columbine goes? I have to agree with James Stewart from New Zealandís comments. While the revelations are enlightening, they
donít detract from the sentiment expressed in the film.More to the point however, it appeared that you were equating the inconsistencies of the film
with the election irregularities outlined in Stupid White Men. Well, I cross-checked the New
York Times article (July 15, 2001) regarding the overseas ballot fiasco that cost Gore the
election. The BBC News story (February 16, 2001) also appears to be accurate. Are you also questioning these sources as well?
Posted by linda z on Mar 30, 2003 at 8:11 PM Linda,
So how do you know which reports are accurate? Seems to me Paul made some very good points as did the lady from Switzerland he was debating with. In the end they both agreed that all either wanted was peace in the world. And isn’t that really what all of us want?
Posted by John A on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:03 PM So their caloric intake is up? I guess Saddam wants to fatten them up before he sticks them through the meat grinder.
Posted by Kim on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:21 PM Kirsten,
Excellent comment of what you said.
Linda Z,
Thanks for your information about the DU ammunition and Micheal Moore’s comments about the Oscars.
Yours Sincerely,
la dÈmocracie :)
Posted by la dÈmocracie on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:42 PM I also agree with Kirsten.
The US should mind their own business.
STOP sending billions of dollars overseas to help other countries with such things as humanitarian aid, the rebuilding of cities, etc. & instead spend that money helping their own impoverished communities.
Posted by matt on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:57 PM Let’s not forget the dear friend of de US fundamentalistic Bush administration: Mr. Blair, a labour- man of Great Britain.
In 1917, following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, the British (together with the French) drew some straight lines on the map, called this ‘Iraq’ (although the people of Baghdad had much more to do with Syrian cities, but that was not important for the British) and established a colonial government. The Arab and Kurdish people of Iraq naturally resisted the British occupation, and by 1920 this had developed into a full scale national revolt. As the Iraqi resistance gained strength, the British resorted to increasingly repressive measures, including the use of posion gas. ‘Great’ Britain was the first nation in history using chemical weapons, bombarding Arab and Kurdish people.On 19 February, 1920, before the start of the Arab uprising, Churchill (then Secretary for War and Air) wrote to Sir Hugh Trenchard, the pioneer of air warfare. “Would it be possible for Trenchard to take control of Iraq? This would entail the provision of some kind of asphyxiating bombs calculated to cause disablement of some kind but not death…for use in preliminary operations against turbulent tribes”.
Churchill was in no doubt that gas could be profitably employed against the Kurds and Iraqis (as well as against other peoples in the Empire). “I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes”.
Excerpt from Simons, Geoff. *IRAQ: FROM SUMER TO SUDAN*. London: St. Martins Press, 1994Robin 2
Posted by robin on Mar 30, 2003 at 9:59 PM This, “comments”, forum, if nothing else, may reveal to we free and always in the right Americans just what the rest of the world thinks of us. That may have no revelance for many of you out there but then, you also believe time is real, in and of itself, rather than a symbol for change. I’m sure our military is well-synchronized in clock-time. Aren’t we all? In our ignorant madness we continually confuse symbol with reality and therefore live in an abstract, intellectual, fragmentary illusion. Those who debunk others by offering ostensible volumes of facts whose sources can never revealed do nothing but obfuscate the truth while emitting an aura of insightfulness. Truth is either redacted, destroyed, or secreted…So, when anyone trots out their storehouse of data to prove their perceptions, they base their presentations on abstractions because the hard facts, the reality behind the leaked statements by those who rule will never see the light of day. Thus we are left with a handful of watery lies and crafty deceptions. The reality can be discerned directly if you look around you and if you can empathize with the dead and dying. All else is mere educated blather.
Posted by Dominick on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:03 PM This, “comments”, forum, if nothing else, may reveal to we free and always in the right Americans just what the rest of the world thinks of us. That may have no revelance for many of you out there but then, you also believe time is real, in and of itself, rather than a symbol for change. I’m sure our military is well-synchronized in clock-time. Aren’t we all? In our ignorant madness we continually confuse symbol with reality and therefore live in an abstract, intellectual, fragmentary illusion. Those who debunk others by offering ostensible volumes of facts whose sources can never revealed do nothing but obfuscate the truth while emitting an aura of insightfulness. Truth is either redacted, destroyed, or secreted…So, when anyone trots out their storehouse of data to prove their perceptions, they base their presentations on abstractions because the hard facts, the reality behind the leaked statements by those who rule will never see the light of day. Thus we are left with a handful of watery lies and crafty deceptions. The reality can be discerned directly if you look around you and if you can empathize with the dead and dying. All else is mere educated blather.
Posted by Dominick on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:03 PM I just came from the theater ,where I saw yr movie.Congratulations , keep your voice louder so that all the world can hear you.There are too few like you but today i understood that one man can make the difference.Congratulations again keep up up the good work,STOP THE WAR.
Posted by Dimitrios Giannoukos on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:14 PM Do the people of the US of A not realise that the entire world is laughing at you? No sorry not laughing at you, we pitty you.
I have NEVER read so my ill informed posts here before, on any site.
Perhaps you think its unpatriotic not to support the war? well if you do that make you stupid, even stupider that GWB (that is saying something) for god sake challenge everything your governmnent tells you.
Posted by Ian on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:17 PM As Americans start losing money and getting poorer, they will remove those in power who are responsible.
However, they may be replaced by equally corrupt politicians, who will gladly use our strength and wealth to exploit others. The solution is kill
corrupt leaders and businessmen. Kill them and send a message that the world will not tolerate the Bush-Ladens of the world. It’s self defense when you kill the kill happy killers who just want to kill kill kill… kill the killers before they kill you. They are a virus on this planet and must be removed. I encourage everyone to start compiling a list of corrupt people who need to die in the revolution that is beginning. We will kill them and take our country back. Kill: The entire Bush-Laden ‘Family’ Mafia, Charles Hurwitz, Jesse Helms, The KKK, Ken Lay, The heads of all the oil companies, Bechtel, SF Police Dept, Pharmaceutical companies, The RIAA, The CIA, The FBI, The NSA, John Fucking ASScroft…
Posted by demo suzuki on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:20 PM America should come to terms with the fact that they are no longer the “world’s only superpower.” Two other superpowers exist now, although both are in their infancy and have yet to flex their muscles.
The first is China. Everybody wonders why Iraq and not North Korea. Isn’t it obvious? America fears provoking China.
The second is the European Community. The trend in Europe for fifty years has been towards greater unity and modernization, and this will continue. Comparing Europe with America, it’s easy to get the impression that the sun is setting on the American era. You seem to be moving backwards as Europe moves forward.
Jeez, you guys are like the only country in the world that can’t figure out the metric system. Counting to ten is ‘too hard.’
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:31 PM Hey, for those who claim that the crowd at the Oscars was split, or doubt Moore’s statement that only a few stagehands were booing (Hmmm….I saw the same Oscar footage, and I didn’t see any booers in the crowd shots either), check this out.
I just listened to David Cross’ new album, and at one point he says that George W. Bush may go down in history as the worst president you’ve ever had. The ENTIRE ROOM exploded with cheers and applause. Not a single boo.
Posted by Steve on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:42 PM We need a real patriot like Michael Moore in order to wash stupid ignorant heads(if they are washable.). It’s easy to support this war in your room, because the ignorance doesn’t understand the terror of the violence until they really get it. Unfortunately because of those, the world will end soon. The ignorance kills the earth.
I lost my grand parents because of the war.
Posted by MM"s follower on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:45 PM We need a real patriot like Michael Moore in order to wash stupid ignorant heads(if they are washable.). It’s easy to support this war in your room, because the ignorance doesn’t understand the terror of the violence until they really get it. Unfortunately because of those, the world will end soon. The ignorance kills the earth.
I lost my grand parents because of the war.
Posted by MM's side on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:55 PM We need a real patriot like Michael Moore in order to wash stupid ignorant heads(if they are washable.). It’s easy to support this war in your room, because the ignorance doesn’t understand the terror of the violence until they really get it. Unfortunately because of those, the world will end soon. The ignorance kills the earth.
I lost my grand parents because of the war.
Posted by MM's side on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:55 PM This conversation would be improved if we heard more intelligent voices in favour of the war. I, myself, am NOT in support of the war, but I’d like to offer what I feel are the most “solid” positions being articulated by those who DO support it:
1) It IS a fact that Saddam runs a ruthless dictatorship and HAS used chemical weapons on civilian targets in the past. What SHOULD the world do, if not remove him by force?
Possible answers:
a) Rely on the UN to disarm or remove him. (Supporters of war will say “we tried that…it didn’t work”)
b) Support those in Iraq who are willing to take a stand against Saddam themselves. (US foreign policy has OFTEN gone this route…providing arms and money to militia groups… It tends to replace one tyranny with another)
c) Assassinate or “forcefully remove” Saddam, without damaging Iraqi infrastructure. (This approach signals an end to “rule of law” in the global community. Sanctioning assassination attempts paves the way for violent future societies where ONLY wealthy military dictators will stand a chance of survival)
d) Don’t put him there in the first place. (Most people are aware that Western powers (including the US, Israel and NATO countries) backed Saddam, both financially, and through providing weapons)
—-Of course, this last comment doesn’t provide a solution, merely a “hindsight” observation of how this mess was created.I don’t have an answer for “what should we do about Saddam.” I DO believe that there should be a solution other than war… Violence begets violence, and citizens of the “coalition”‘s invading force should realize that this aggression is increasing the risk of “terrorist” attacks on their own homes.
“Weapons of mass destruction” are not as scary as angry people who feel they have nothing to lose, and who are willing to die to injure the object of their anger.
(more possible arguments to follow)
Posted by Tim on Mar 30, 2003 at 10:57 PM I am ashamed.
I am ashamed that britain and america are fighting a war for the wrong reasons.
I am ashamed that at an event like the oscars, people aren’t given enough time to say what they like.
I am deeply ashamed with some of the posts on this list of facists. Bearing in mind that there are plenty of good decent balanced veiws, there are also a stupid amount of nazi’s that think they’re ultimatly right. I myself am not facist, nor would i say i was communist but i have an opinion and at this moment, i feel that there is a situation in the gulf, that could/should be avoided.Finally i am ashamed with america. This is country made from immigrants, who borought flags and killed natives. It was the country that gave free speech. Have you people forgoten about free speech. Kings like MM geting abused for saying what he likes is one thing, but people are getting arrested for wearing anti war t-shirts is going too far. If any of you mussiline based mental cases have an ounce of patriotism left, you use it to say what you want, do what you like and stop this terrible war.
Both our countries are democracy, but at the moment i don’t feel as if the ammerican public nor the british public have a say
Shame on you Mr. BushGod Bless you Mr. Moore
Posted by An ashamed brit on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:04 PM 13 million Americans in poverty and the President of the USA goes to war which at the moment will cost $75Billion.
A man who sees the obvious injustice of this speaks up, and people of this own country tell him that he’s a fool.
When will the people of the US stop being so bloody stupid.
I pitty the intelligent Americans i have met.
Posted by bob on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:17 PM The real shame is that hate is universal as you can see by alot of these posts from the US as well as abroad.
If we can’t sit & debate without stooping to the levels of the very ones we oppose then are we any better?
Granted, no bombs are being dropped on this forum but judging from alot of the comments, most of you would if you could.
I find it odd that alot of the same ones calling for peace are the very ones who continue to spew their hate onto these pages.
Does this seem logical?
Posted by Kim on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:17 PM Intelligent argument in support of war # 2 (Again, provided here by someone who does NOT agree with the war)
2) Many of the countries most actively against this war(France, Germany, Russia…) are the very countries who currently have oil interests in Iraq THEMSELVES. (In other words, their motivation is as suspect as current invasion forces who have been accused of conducting a “war for oil”)
Possible responses:
a) Just because one’s motivation is suspect, it does not follow that your action is not correct. I may save someone from drowning because I want to steal their wallet… It remains, however, a “good” thing to save that person, does it not?
(that was an argument forwarded by a girl quoted by Toni Blair about a week ago in defence of the present war)—So this argument can really be applied to both “sides” of the debate, and doesn’t really mitigate or clarify the issue any.
b) Let’s imagine, then, that countries opposed to this invasion are defending their own financial interests. Can you really blame them? The United States is presently the only real “superpower” on the planet. Even in a “capitalist” philosophy, most people recognize the dangers of “monopolies”... If it is bad in the world of BUSINESS to have no competition, what makes us think it is a good thing to have no POLITICAL competition on the global stage?
—In other words, if the US further consolidates its position as the only super power by controlling the world’s oil reserves, this does not serve the best interests of the global population.
(other possible arguments to continue… )
Posted by Tim on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:20 PM -
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