On day five of the war, it was supremely ironic that network television viewers had to tune into the 75th Annual Academy Awards ceremony to hear voices that questioned the wisdom of the Bush administration. Rumblings of protest began on Saturday. At the Independent Spirit Awards (the award ceremony for independent films) in Santa Monica, California, Maggie Gyllenhaal, the star of… return to article
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Reader Comments (2170)Though I am supporting Bush and Blair and I believe that the war is necessary I have nothing but admiration and respect for Michael Moore. He is a very thinking, very worthy man who clearly knows how important freedom of speech can be. Despite disagreeing with him on this issue I am fully in agreement with many issues that he covers in his books and documentaries, he is without doubt one of the finest human beings alive. Thank you
Posted by Chloe French on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:22 PM Morre is correct in standing up and speaking his mind, as an American it is his right and his duty. This war is going to be the turning point in our history. If we don’t find weapons of mass destruction we will lose all credibility with the UN and with all the other countries who look to us as an examples of democracy. We use up most of the worlds resources and the rest of the world puts up with it because of what we stand for by the way of human rights but once that is gone what do we have to offer the world in exchange for itís resources. Money you say, how long do you think that will last when no one wants our money and the dollar falls due to lack of interest in holding up a country that doesn’t even practice what they preach.
Posted by barbara plaskett on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:27 PM Tim,
A realistic repsonse to the “solidness” of the pro-war reasoning:
a)Weapons inspectors did work! They never found anything, because Iraq has nothing. In the three months that Blix and his boys were in Iraq was there were not any chemical attack, nuclear attacks, biologicasl attack - in fact there have never been any attacks of the sort, except when it WAS sanctioned by the U.S. and British against Iran.b.) The mass appeal of arming Iraqi militia groups is, that it would embroil the country in a civil war costing millions of muslim lives would be lost, and no Americans would have to die fighting for the oil. They could just go and pick up the pieces. The U.S. is doing that with the Kurdish, and are trying to do the sam in Basra. They did the same in Afghanistan, and will do the same in Iraq the second the opportunity presents itself.
c.) The U.S. has tried to assinate Saddam Hussein. They have been unsuccesful. Targeted assassinations by the U.S. have taken place in virtually every country that has opposed any U.S. policies. The U.S. reached a new low when they assassinated an El Salvadorian Archbishop during the dirty war. The unmanned drones that fly around killing former Taliban leaders without trial, jury, or impartiality are assassinations.
d) hindsight is always 20/20
The best solution is to stay out of Iraq’s business, and spend the $100,000,000,000 on dropping aid instead of bombs, while continuing with the weapons inspections.
The only solid reason pro-war hawks have foe entering this blood conflicts are as follows:
a)$4 trillion worth of oil reserves
b)further destabilize the enemies of Israel
c)Distract Americans from a failed economy, corporate scandal linked to the White house
d)Shift the blame for 9/11 on to a tangible target that Americans can see, as the U.S. has done to Osama bin Laden, but alas, Americans get bored easy!Honesty is surely the best policy!
Michael Moore for president! Viva la france! (who in actually fact will be a lot more complacent when they are awarded some of the pillaging of Iraqi oil, coupled with reconsrtuction contracts)
Adam
Posted by Adam on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:31 PM Hi,
I have just finished reading the
bulk of these comments and wanted
to list some observations/beliefs,
linked both to this website as well as to my own personal experiences:1) Right-wing commentators are utterly unable to engage in any coherent dialogue about political/social issues
without becoming emotionally
out-of-control. This results in raised
voices, flushed faces, profanity, and even threats. During the
course of said escalation, a lack of
any real information is presented that adds weight or credibility to their opinions/views. This has happened time and time again to
me personally, and I am seeing it scattered all over these reader comments as well. I am noting
that there has not been one intelligent response from any of the right wing contributors.2) The most hurtful accusation being thrown at the anti-war/anti-Bush community (and we are legion) is that we do not support our troops. It is a mistake to believe this. I have the utmost
respect for our military and am
sickened to know that they are
being sent to fight—and possibly
die—by such a flawed and irresponsible administation. It
is an insult and a disgrace to these
men and women, and to those who
fought for our freedoms in wars past. Which brings me to #3.3) Not all opponents of this war
are frothing liberals who naively
believe that war is never warranted.
There are times when we have no
choice but to engage in battle. This
is not one of those times. We are
fighting for Big Oil and for the financial prosperity of George W. Bush and his friends.4) Michael Moore is an extremely
intelligent and brave human being.
Reading the comments about his
weight made me cringe, and here’s
why: I once made the same kind of
remarks about Rush Limbaugh! I
now see how juvenile such remarks
sound, and how they can offset even the most intelligent discourse.
Limbaugh’s weight had absolutely
nothing to do with how foolish a
man he was (and still is), just as
Moore’s has nothing to do with whether you love or loathe him.5) The concept of a liberal media
has always been a giant smoke-
and-mirrors show, but never has
this been more obvious than now.
The press have been behaving like
unpaid employees of the Department of Defense, and we are
the poorer for it. If anything good
comes from this current situation,
perhaps it will finally put the canard
of a liberal bias to bed for good.
Posted by andy walton on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:33 PM Possible argument in support of war #3 (I’ve heard this one from a number of friends):
3) It is too late for the peace option. While it was probably a better idea to pursue a diplomatic resolution, the fact remains, “our boys (and girls)” are already out there, and we now need to support them.
Possible responses:
a) This is a curious trend in “American Patriotism”, from my perspective. People (in the US)opposed the war, opposed the war, opposed the war… And yet on the DAY the missiles started falling, support JUMPED. The idea here, I think, is connected to a “divine right of Kings”-sort-of philosophy. People say “I’ve been praying for Bush…He is our leader…He has made the decision… It is our duty, now, to submit to that decision.”
My suggestion to these people is that they read the Declaration of Independence: A fairly short and tremendously relevant piece of American history that outlines conditions under which people have a duty to NOT support their leaders.
b) To support a leader’s decisions without evaluating the morality of those decisions is to abdicate one’s responsibility as a moral creature. It is the equivalent of saying “I was only following orders.” History does not defend people who appeal to that line.
If a country’s leader suggested the country round up members of a certain class or ethnic group and put them in camps(justifying the action by saying these people are “threats”), surely we wouldn’t respond by saying, “well… he IS the leader; he must know best…”
So why is it any different when the leader says “lets bomb and invade this country because they might do something nasty…”??
Let’s read our history…
Posted by Tim on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:40 PM Adam:
We don’t help the issue by pretending only “idiots” oppose our position. As stated, I am as “anti-war” as they come. My goal, however, is to attempt to imagine the BEST arguments in support of aggression, because THESE are the arguments we need to be addressing.
Anyone can set up a “Straw Man” argument for the other side, and then knock it down. Let’s rise above that and try to really LISTEN to what each other are saying, rather than just screaming “IDIOT!” across our fences to neighbours we disagree with.
Posted by Tim on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:47 PM Absolutely on target…Cheers for MM and JB for this article…Jesse
Posted by jesse austin on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:49 PM Right on Tim!!!
I wholeheartedly agree with your comments to Adam.
This forum should be nicknamed “Adults acting Badly” on BOTH sides of the issue.
Posted by Kim on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:52 PM Good response, Adam. I don’t necessarily agree with the war either - but when people respond with emotion rather than logic, I tend to ignore whatever point it is they are trying to make here.
It is easy to say, “I’m opposed to war”. It is more difficult to convince someone who is in favor what factors to consider in their decision.
Posted by ROCKTIME on Mar 30, 2003 at 11:59 PM I’m curious: Does anyone know the question the pollsters have asked in order to generate their “support for war” statistics in the United States?
Is the question, for instance:
(circle one)
DO YOU:
a) support our troops in Iraq
-or-
b) feel that we should do nothing to protect us from terror
——-You can imagine how the results of THAT poll might differ from one phrased like THIS:
DO YOU:
a) Support peace
-or-
b) Support aggression against a country based on hearsay claiming they are a “threat”—-US respondants on THIS site are overwhelmingly opposed to the war. Is this just an un-representative data-set, or should we be more actively questioning the “support statistics” we are hearing?
(Related aside: Interesting that Turkey is listed as part of the “Coalition of the willing”... my impression is that they are neither terribly supportive, nor terribly “willing” with what little concessions they HAVE made…)
Posted by Tim on Mar 31, 2003 at 12:28 AM This was the story I was looking for…I knew it wasn’t being reported correctly and I wasn’t able to find it on other alternative outlets. Thanks.
Posted by Anastasia on Mar 31, 2003 at 12:29 AM Micheal Moore is one of the few people left in the media with a socially concious perspective on things. I applaud his efforts and statments, and although I haven’t always agreed with everything he’s said I still respect him for being able to say it.
Further more, being an american does he not have the right to say whatever he feels? It’s right there in the constitution. Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing isn’t it.
Whether you agree with what Micheal Moore says or not is up to you, but how you carry youself as a human being and how u function within society is up to you as well. You can sit there and call him a “Fat Fuck” but in doing so you are proving his point about society in general. With regards to the person who stated that ” MM should be taken out and shot ” YOU should have shame on yourself. That is the type of thing Micheal Moore talks about, the fact that we are so saturated in violence and hate. That statement was one of the most ignorent and apathetic things I’ve ever heard. Who are you to judge him? Have you ever read one of his books or seen one of his films? We can only pray that someday someone won’t say the same thing about you and take it litteraly.
Posted by Jenibugoô on Mar 31, 2003 at 12:31 AM i’m against the war, why?
Is it because i’m a liberal who hates war no matter what? God no
Do i think the war is about oil? No
Do it think the war is about American imperialism? No
So why am i against the war?
Because the people for the war have taken Iraq and Saddam Hussan out of the context of the middle-east. Not realising the interwoven complexities of the middle-east. As the war goes on so the hate rises, increasing the division between Arab states and the West.
If this war was at some point ever about stopping terrorism then it will not work as terrorism will only get worse as this conflict goes on.
America and Britian, now you are in the war, finnish the job get rid of Saddam…then get the hell out because no one wants you there.
Ian
PS well done MM for speaking up.
Posted by ian on Mar 31, 2003 at 12:33 AM Why is it that all the negative comments here come from people who can’t spell, are filled with rage and hatred and seem totally outraged there there just might be another way of looking at a problem? As an outsider I can’t quite get the way American’s view “freedom” or “democracy” -or are they just brand names as well?
Posted by Dave on Mar 31, 2003 at 12:59 AM Hi folks - regardless of which ‘side’ of the argument you support.
I’m trying to access a link to the English “Al-Jazeera” website that was provided by the BBC.
I’ve been unable to access this (get “you are not authorized to view this page”) since I started trying over a week ago.
I’m just curious how the website is reporting things from the ‘non-western’ point of view.
Since I’m in Canada - it’s possible that some sort of ‘block’ has been put in place - could some of you from elsewhere around the globe give it a try and let me know if I’m getting too paranoid?
Also - if anybody knows a ‘back-door’ to similar sites - please let me (us) know. Given that there are a LOT of us that don’t trust the US media - it would be nice to have access to the other side of the story - even if it just swings 180 degrees the other way (I could then TRY to arrive at a reasonable, balanced conclusion as to what the bloody hell is going on over there!)
Thanks - Spike - Vancouver, Canada (ex-Pat UK)
Posted by Spike on Mar 31, 2003 at 1:10 AM Tim from Winnipeg, playing his own devil’s disciple is at least original if not substantiative in what I consider the most relevant issue in this entire piteous, murderous fiasco and that is…the obvious and irrefutable fact that people are being killed, that our all-volunteer military is being cynically used for purposes that are continually being, “adjusted”, a la carte, so to speak, to fit whatever public opinion problem the Dubbya team deems threatening. For to expend the materiel this unparalleled war machine in the manner seen fit by whomever has the most to gain from it’s unfettered use is paramount. Another obvious nexus of contradictory subversive governmental machinations is the use of 9/11 as a focal point from which to justify the premise that the horror of that day was a call to war rather than a crime against humanity. Also, and more logistically important is the uninvestigated assumption that only foreign terrorists were culpable. Again, as Bush attempts to curtail and obfuscate a proper, thorough investigation. Why? If I were an investigator, like any good detective I would naturally attempt to elicit information by claiming that the suspect has nothing to fear if he is telling the truth and has nothing to hide…that the entire truth would either prove him innocent or guilty. Why then, has this regime in Washington found it necessary to place all presidential documents beginning with the Reagan administration under the aegis of, “National Security”? That’s much like a Mafia Capo pleading the fifth. All it does is increase the level of suspicion about his culpability. Then too, we are the mightiest nation on Earth yet disregard all allied, indeed nearly universal, (if not overt), prohibition against pre-emptively attacking so insignificant a country, (militarily), as Iraq. Are we not playing the bully, using the excuse that the little so and so just wouldn’t listen to his orders so the beating he metes out is justified, if even only in his mind? What do we say to such bullies? We say, “why don’t you pick on somebody your own size, you paranoid, mean-spirited, cowardly fool?”, do we not? I can go on and on pointing to this or that obviously real problem with going into any war other than for reasons of self-defense. Why did Dubbya go unilaterally despite worldwide disapprobation? Out of space, will continue later.
Posted by Dominick on Mar 31, 2003 at 1:29 AM Wow! Reading through each of these comments is amusing. I respect the fact that we each have the right to stand up and speak our mind. I do not think that the majority of people think the war is unjust and do not believe that we are only fighting for oil. The people I meet and deal with daily believe in President Bush and his reasons for the war. I have only seen the ones against the war on tv. I would like Michael Moore to know that I do not agree with him and I know tons of Texans who don’t agree with him either. Thanks for the forum.
Posted by Paige Young on Mar 31, 2003 at 2:28 AM Critical thinking deduces that any large population where the majority cannot access knowledge by those who keep it from them(control information, raise costs of education, make the information unavailable, distract them with the pursuit of prescribed concept of happiness) will not be able to comprehend complexity autonomously.
They will not be able to think, question or even realize that they lack these modicum of the mind.
Those that know the knowledge exists will pursue it and find it (whether they earn degrees or not…degrees cost money, libraries are free…as is teaching yourself to be maieutic).
They will share the information.
The benefit of sharing the information will not be for the personal benefit of the individual, but the future and well being of mankind and his habitat.
If he is successful, mankind will become curious, critical thinkers that seek knowledge and comprehension of his own world. Even if man does not gain understanding and wisdom, at least the ability to question why.
If he is not successful, mankind will not question anything. We will believe anything we are told. We will do anything we are told, because we will not be able to comprehend. We will continue to completely destroy ourselves, each other and our sustainance.
No matter what “side” you’ve decided to take, remember that we are on the same side for now and we need to learn to live together.
Above the ground…
Posted by Bellagram on Mar 31, 2003 at 2:51 AM I am a vet and I have read Michael’s book and i say more power to him. Exercise that right to free speech, it’s what I fought for.
Posted by tom on Mar 31, 2003 at 3:01 AM Just encountered an article (from Monday 31st March - “Times (UK)”) that I’m SURE does not reflect the regular approach of the US military – but it was sad reading all the same.
Quote (if you’re interested):
……………. LCoH Gerrard criticised the A10 for shooting when there were civilians so close to the tanks. He said: “There was a boy of about 12 years old. He was no more than 20 metres away when the Yank opened up. There were all these civilians around. He had absolutely no regard for human life. I believe he was a cowboy. ………….
Full article at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5944-629644,00.html
Whatever has become of our world – I don’t think I’m particularly dim – but I do feel SO ignorant and ashamed now. I find myself feeling guilty that it has taken current events to open my eyes when injustice, oppression and murder has been going on for so long – in ways that so many of us forget because it doesn’t directly affect us. Well all of a sudden it IS affecting us – and I don’t like it one bit.
Maybe that’s the one good thing that will come out of this – peoples perceptions of the world, our leaders and our media may change for the better – questioning those who make the rules and tell the stories should surely increase the chances of us surviving in a free and secure world. It’s going to take a long time though …
May you and yours be safe – Spike.
Posted by Spike on Mar 31, 2003 at 3:29 AM Spike in Vancouver:
CBC News is reporting that the English Al Jazeera website has been “hacked” and disabled, as of last week (Wednesday?)
see: http://www.cbc.ca/storyview/CBC/2003/03/27/jazeerahack030327
Posted by Tim on Mar 31, 2003 at 3:30 AM To Tim from Winnipeg ...
Thanks Bro’ - why am I not surprised?
Thanks for your posts too - ‘a cut above the norm’ as we’d say in the UK. Wouldn’t mind bumping into you either.
Spike.
Posted by Spike on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:04 AM Imissed the awards but I am a hairartist and I heard about your speech through my clients all week. You are right the viewers all believed that everyone booed you .Iagree with you totaly and Iam so glad that you were heard all over the world the people need to know the truth and this IS the end times .I pray that that the Lord Jesus keeps you safe.
Posted by Esther Pizana on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:07 AM I am a 25 year old male who has never been interested in politics or all the bullshit that goes along with it. This past (fictional) election that put governor Bush in the oval office has opened my eyes to our government and our media. It both outrages and saddens me that this sort of thing was ever allowed to happen in this great nation. It makes you wonder where our government is going next. Dictaorship maybe? There are so many people like I used be who would rather know nothing about what is going on than to face the hard facts and speak out against the wrongdoings. Thank god for people like Michael Moore for giving such a strong voice to these issues. I would love to see “governor” Bush go up against Michael Moore in a debate or maybe even the next election!
Posted by Philip on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:14 AM Those of you criticizing Moore aren’t doing a very good job of making yourself and others like you look respectable, intelligent, or credible. Throwing out childish insults only shows YOUR lack of character…not his.
Posted by Ann Ewoldt on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:34 AM Michael Moore is the celebrity voice that I don’t have. I support 100% of the things he has to say. In a country whose people increasingly allow the media to think for them, I sometimes feel alone in my refusal to buy Mr. Bush’s politics. Micheal Moore speaks out eloquently on the feelings I cannot voice myself. Thank you Micheal Moore; thank you for being a REAL American, the kind that thinks for himself. Keep up the excellent work!
Posted by Lauren Farrell on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:36 AM personally if i had the chance i would shoot mike moore no dirtbag should second guess the commander in chief i do hope mike moore is shot so we can make america a better place. It should go like this shame on you Mr. Moore shame on you. If he considers yourself an american i am ashamed to be one
Posted by Blaine on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:38 AM this is to that ann eowalt bitch fuck u ill kill u ill fuckin make u beg for death
Posted by Blaine on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:41 AM hey everybody!
as someone watching from overseas, one of the 500.000 on the streets in berlin against war 2/15 (2003) by the way, a father of two young children, watching in shock and horror the images of a little boy in an iraqi hospital, crying bitterly, wounded by a cruise missile attack,
the images of shot dead 19-year old american kids lying on the cold floor of a building somewhere in iraq,as someone who really came to like the u.s.a. a lot during numerous stays from cape cod to tybee island to san francisco thru big sur to los osos,
someone who met numerous most kind and generous people in this country,
someone who has followed the work of michael moore since “bowling” out of a deeper interest to understand the heart and mind of this big country u.s.a (which, by the way, calls itself america, though it really only is a part of that america)
someone who has watched in real awe the acceptance speach by mm, which i do consider being quite courageous (why courageous, in the greatest of the western civilized democracies really—wasnt it really just your normal run-of-the-mill freedom of opinion?)
as this someone,
i find every single entry in this forum incredibly enlightening.
THANK YOU inthesetimes.com for running this site.
THANK YOU Michael Moore for shedding some good light on some of these timesí more complex underlying patterns in our western societies of today.
PEACE
if even the Pope says so it cant be wrongWAR IS NOT THE ANSWER
thank you Sheryl Crow for telling it like it isSHAME ON YOU MR BUSH
white house, black heart, red hands
Posted by sebastian on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:06 AM to mike suxs (cmon, what a lame & loony pseud)
so we always seem to be at war with saddam, since the mid 80s.
yeah he was a bad boy even back then alright.
but back then, he was OUR bad boy.
Shaking hands with Donnie RumsRums.
as long as he was killing people IN OUR FAVOUR it was O.K.
Think about that, mike.
Posted by sebastian on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:15 AM I am amazed when I read sites such as these. Reading comments that criticise people such as Michael for speaking his mind and often the truth. Your country lauds itself on the rights of such freedoms; it even wages wars to uphold this right. Yet you will shout down a man for saying so and for exercising his right to free speech, even whilst you exercise that right.
And what does he aim to achieve by telling you this? Nothing other than informing you that what you see on CNN, and what your government tells you is not always the truth, most is tainted and biased.
You question why the world has its negative opinions on your country and the ideologies of some who live there, but don’t really accept why. You fail to seek all of the truth and listen to other opinions and form non biased views. Yet you will criticise someone who disagrees with your propaganda fed ideas.
Is this because it is easier to have a preformed narrow-minded view and denounce others who disagree because in your ignorant fear it is easier to yell and criticise than to explain and alter your position? Or, quite simply are you happy in your patriotic flag waving ignorance.
If so, I pity those like you who are ignorant and unable to grasp the importance of basic human rights, such as the right to free speech. But more so I pity the fact that we must live in a world full of these people, riddled with their obscene hypocrisy and inability to grasp basic ideals.
The French philosopher Voltaire summed it up pretty well it the 1700ís with ì I disapprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it.î Can any of you ignorant fools grasp that idea??
Or maybe ìThose who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocitiesî is closer to the mark,Ö..
Posted by Cameron B on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:21 AM Thank You Micheal Moore for standing up for your beliefs, and for giving my beliefs a voice in the process. I applaude you.
Posted by Justine on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:23 AM I suppose that most people who think they are pro-war feel justified because they think they can never be victimized in the manner which we’ve savagely sent our troops to destroy the people of Iraq. It’s too bad the reasons this regime assigns to exactly WHY we are belligerently; aggressively dealing death there continue to shift and never arrive at the TRUE purpose of that ill-fated extermination mission. Like the shifting of the sand dunes within the country we’re about to utterly annihilate, the reasons for this hostile takeover also shift. Shifty people are prone to shift their rationales for downright murder when the one TRUE motive seems unable to escape their bloated lips. One need realize that beyond all reason and excuses that it is DEATH which is being reaped in Iraq. God help us for not having the temerity to nip this illigitimate regime in the bud. For now, as of this moment, justifications must become desperate because the die has been cast. Because this war is, at root, being waged for and by international corporations and despite what some apologists and downright blood lusting crazed fellow citizens may believe…this war is of no benifit to them. They need look no further than the ever escalating price of gasoline, housing, food, and the attendant loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs to KNOW this is the truth. So, if this war is so damn proper, why aren’t the sons and daughters of our government’s highest office holers along with those of the global and national mega-corporations fighting each other off that they may be first in line to enlist in one of the many fine branches of the military who now carpet-bomb the airwaves with romantic sounding advertizements to enlist? Could it be that those who are sending youth to die and kill know that a foundering economy is almost a guarantee against such a preposterous idea? When there are no jobs for youth, it becomes a matter of their money or their lives. The enlistment lines will never want for enough frightened, confused, poor youth, food for the grist mills of destruction. A war for every generation! I guarantee this now: We will one day be on the receiving end of a REAL war for survival. folks. The law of un-intended consequences will not be held in abeyance just because the professional prognosticators believe they’ve factored all variables into their equasions. Hey, corporations fold every day…they thought they had everything figured out too.
Posted by Dominick on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:25 AM to Brian from Dallas
i feel so sorry for you, Brian. honestly, consider getting treatment soon, be it therapeutical, or just educational: on behavioural skills, and maybe citizenship-of-a-democratic-country.
you sound more like saddam husseinís son than like a good american.
Posted by sebastian on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:29 AM I don’t see why people are criticizing Michael Moore.. he’s just telling the truth about your culture. Whether you like it or not, it’s been hidden from you long enough and now it’s time to see it. By criticizing him you’re only criticizing yourselves.. Open up your fucking eyes and see the truth.
Posted by Robin on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:58 AM How is shooting Michael Moore going to make the United States of America a better place? You are the perfect example of what he’s describing in “Bowling”. Are gun’s the only way you can think of solving your problems? Perhaps you should think about correcting your grammer before you throw any more childish insults and death threats at him. Killing someone wont do anything you warmonger. It only aggrivates problems.. Use your head… Oh wait, you guys don’t know how to think things through. Just act on the moment.. did I describe correctly?
Posted by Robin on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:08 AM Fuck off Robin.
The only thing insulting here is you.
As a fellow Canadian from the west coast I can tell you that we are starting to resemble the US in alot of ways. Look at the hate & violence that is present in OUR streets everyday. Look at the crime level in Vancouver. What about Surrey? Checked the news in Kamloops lately? Hate & violence are universal & we Canadians are not exempt.
Posted by mike on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:20 AM Where are Tom, Red and Arndt, from last night? I was really sorry to miss that exchange yesterday, and was hoping we could have a sequel tonight… (with you too, Spike)
Posted by Tim on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:22 AM After seeing this remarkable and courageous ‘outburst’ at the Oscars, we went to watch Bowling for Columbine with my whole family. Magnificently done! We also bought the latest Michael Moore’s book and are taking turns reading it. mark was right - this is still a democracy.
Posted by John on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:55 AM As a non-American, living in a country which is currently supporting the US in Iraq, it’s fascinating to read the comments of everyone here. Particularly those who seem to regard it as their appointed role to heap shit on the personal characteristics of Moore. Whether or not he is overweight, unshaven etc etc makes little difference to his intellect. It seems to be a method of attack that results from the attacker/s inability to construct any sort of rational argument for their beliefs, eg the gentleman who referred to “Slick Willie” Clinton in his email. If you have to wallow in personal attack, and irrelevant personal attack at that, you probably don’t have too much of a convincing argument. Looking at it objectively, Clinton rescued the US economy from ruin after the Reagan/Bush I administrations, did improve healthcare and education, and was well-respected internationally. He is probably the greatest economic president since FDR, yet all some people worry about is his marital situation. Incredible small-mindedness.
It is this sort of mindset that bewilders those outside the US, who don’t really have a Democrat/Republican persuasion, and so can be pretty objective about it all.
To return to Moore for a moment, he seems to be one of a very few Americans willing to ask awkward questions. I wouldn’t agree with everything he has to say on every topic, but at least he is willing to display a measure of cynicism that’s lacking in the American body politic. I don’t know why, but the US seems to discourage those of a questing and unquisitve nature. This should be seen as a greivous cultural flaw. Rather than seeing argument with leadership and the status quo as some sort of patriotic heresy, it should be encouraged as a proven method of progress. Even when you don’t agree with what is said. (if you did, there wouldn’t be any argument, I guess!). The authors of the Declaration of Independence were willing to challenge the accepted way things were done; so were Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, Lincoln, for that matter, Jefferson Davis. Progress comes only from the discussion of discontent. So welcome Moore and his pals as people who are actually working for the furtherance of the American cause, rather than against it. And to the liberals who have probably loved this ‘til not, that goes for you too - tune in to Limbaugh, read James Baker III, and hear what they’ve got to say.
you can email me at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
Posted by Luke on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:05 AM The only reason we Americans knew about Mr. Clinton’s affairs is because he did everything he could to rub our faces in it.
Yes, he did lots for the economy & yes, I helped elect him. I really believed he had enough class & self control to keep his pants up, in public at least, during his tenure as President. Instead scandal followed him from Arkansas to the White House where he continued to abuse his power for 8 more years.
Posted by mark on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:14 AM to micheal moore and everyone else against the war. the war has started and it isn’t going to stop until Bush is ready for it to stop. so to all the people who still speak their mind against the war should put first the feelings of our guys fighting for us and what they believe in and dying for it. how would they feel to hear people down grading their beliefs and in a what theyput their life on the line for.
Posted by thanks to our guys defending us on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:36 AM Guess what… the world is not perfect. Anyone who thinks they can convince someone who does not agree with them to change their mind, is naive. The only way to stop Mussilini was to drag him out on the street and rip him apart. The same goes for George W Bush. Kill his wife, rape his daughters and put him through the same hell he is inflicting on the rest of us. He does not support our troops. He doesn’t give a fuck about anyone. He’s a cokehead junkie motherfucker. This is description not name calling. Writers know this and amateur critics try to fabricate ideas to support their agenda. Kill George Bush and anyone who stands in the way of the revolution. If you pussies want sit around and blab and grandstand, you are part of the problem. I encourage anyone with a gun or the means to kill this entire Bush-Laden administration. If you don’t, they will kill you next.
Posted by demo suzuki on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:38 AM Lots of us here have independently mentioned similarities of character between Michalel Moore and Voltaire… but what about Socrates? I think Mike is a bit Socratic in his documentalism—how are Mike and Socrates alike?
Like Socrates who said “I only know that I know nothing,” Mike approaches interviewing just that way—he encourages people to come to realizations themselves—he sees that people are inately goood but may become corrputed because of ignorance and only truth (knowledge) can liberate ones self—such liberation occurs when one takes on the serious ethical matters—- plus, Socrates was most unpopular, was called names and physically threatened.
Right now, Mike is more popular on eBay than Socrates. There is a miniscule portion of anti-Mike paraphenilia circulating (stupid bumper sitckers with dumb slogans), and, 4 pages of people fighting over Mike’s videos and literature—in fact, Mike’s got TWICE more activity going on than Mr Rogers had after he left the neighborhood.
I’m making a bumper sticker that’s gonna say MIKE MOORE FOR PRESIDENT—Ralph Nader can be his running mate
cheers all, Louise
Posted by Louise on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:45 AM It is funny when we hear that Bush goes to church before his briefings.. has anyone heard what his prayers is all about.. if anyone knows let us know , it may be interesting…
Posted by hawkeye on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:52 AM Mark, surely you can’t be serious. Clinton “did everything he could to rub our faces in it”? Are you kidding? He would be the second man in history (after Hugh Heffner, I guess), to WANT to broadcast his sexual misdemeanors. I think you will find that a guy called Kenneth Starr had a bit to do with it as well. Anyway, the point is, what do you care if he gets it off where he shouldn’t? It has precious little to do with anyone other than his wife and his spiritual advisor (who did the same thing himself, hmmm…). As long as he does what you elect him to do, preserve, protect and defend th Constitution, who cares what he does in his spare time?
This is the point I was making - I am amazed that personal issues like this, like Moore’s appearance, etc etc, dominate the political thinkng more than Clintonomics, dodgy elections or Iran-contra scandals.
Posted by Luke on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:56 AM He wasn’t on his spare time & the scandals didn’t start when he got to the White House.
I really don’t want to get into a debate about Clinton as we’d be here all night & he is not the subject of this particular forum.
Let me close by saying that we didn’t care about his indiscretions or he wouldn’t have been elected in the first place. The real “bitch” in all this is Linda Tripp but again that is neither here nor there.
He seduced an intern, got caught & then lied & denied until he just couldn’t lie anymore.
Posted by mark on Mar 31, 2003 at 8:06 AM Fair enough - you’re right, we’re not on www.Clinton.com The point remains though - the amount of vitriol directed at Moore merely goes to show that far too many people consider debate to be either dangerous or unpatriotic. And THAT is the real problem - go back to the second part of my original piece.
Posted by Luke on Mar 31, 2003 at 8:11 AM nice to see Moore back and give me some hope that not all americans are arrogant warhungred cowboys. keep it up
Posted by zen on Mar 31, 2003 at 8:13 AM hey mike
keep up the good work
i understand gov bush has the
second lowest iq of any pres
his dad had the lowest..
i think it was abby hoffman that
(pardon if i don’t get this quite right)
“you can judge a democracy by the way it treats it’d dissidents.
Not the way it treats it’s assimilated masses…”
keep it comin mike
Posted by Fred on Mar 31, 2003 at 8:22 AM Luke,
Please don’t let the ignorance of some effect your judgment of Americans as a whole. Whether you are for this war or against it ALL Americans have the right to Freedom of Speech & while I am one that disagreed with the forum Mr. Moore used to voice his opinion (mostly because I wanted a “break” from the war) I would never try to deny him that right or stoop to name calling just because I didn’t agree.
I also find it disturbing & disheartening that so many of the so called “peace” marches around the world have ended in violence.
Let’s face it… This world is NEVER going to be the same & it scares the hell out of me!
Posted by mark on Mar 31, 2003 at 8:28 AM Michael Moore is one brave man!
Having to face a mob of brainless redneck warmongers must be tough!
Posted by Jobe on Mar 31, 2003 at 8:36 AM Michael Moore understands what it means to be an Americn and a citizen of our world. He honors the memory of all who have fought in the past to gain and preserve freedom and liberty. The present and future are also honored by telling the truth and exposing injustice. The troops in this war are brave and noble and doing that which has been asked of them. They cannot be faulted. They must be supported. The tradegy is that the troops have been betrayed by their leaders. Under false pretenses they have been called to war to clean up past failed foreign policy and corporate greed from around the world eager to make a profit by selling materials to a known madman in Iraq. This could have been solved in a different way, but in todays economic world a peaceful solution would not have been as profitable. Follow the money and where it ends up and you will see the core of the problem. I am proud of those who stand and speak for the truth wherever in the world they may come from. That will be our salvation. Ignorance is our enemy and ignorance fuels the misguided actions of many world leaders, many religous leaders and all terrorists in this world.
Posted by Nelson on Mar 31, 2003 at 9:10 AM The organizers of the Oscars asked everyone involved not to use the podium as a political forum. They wanted to keep the ceremony low key in light of the events that were unfolding right before all our eyes in Iraq.
While Mr. Moore has a right to his opinion I feel his actions were disrespectful not only to the Academy but more importantly to our brave soldiers who are in Iraq fighting through no fault of their own.
He could have just as easily saved his comments for the press conference going on backstage but then that wouldn’t have been as self serving & we probably wouldn’t be here debating.
Posted by RED on Mar 31, 2003 at 9:40 AM Michael Moore is the bravest man in America. For all those critics, I say..Beware of an unexplored belief. Do your research before blindly following your Government. You will be AMAZED what you will discover and until you have done that, you can only make uneducated, misdirected stabs in the dark.
Posted by Gabrielle Leven on Mar 31, 2003 at 10:03 AM you should be proud of Michael Moore. He shows the rest of the world that not every american stands behind George W. Bush and his illegal war.
Posted by Dirk on Mar 31, 2003 at 10:09 AM I just want to say again; What is the difference between a bomb thats detinated by a terrorist and one that falls from a US plane? They both kill innocent people. I can’t see how people can defend that Yes Saddam is evil, yes he kills innocent people. Bush is doing the same by making this war happen. How can Americans defend that? Supporting the troops now that they’re over there is one thing, but supporting this war for oil and power is something else entirely.
Posted by Laura on Mar 31, 2003 at 10:09 AM Michael Moore should be an archetype for the majority of us….there`s still hope. Go wild Mike!
Posted by Tim on Mar 31, 2003 at 10:23 AM Hello Spike - Vancouver, Canada, the http://english.aljazeera.net/ has been hacked by Americans. In the Netherlands we get American porno and the American flag when we try reach this website and use our humanright ‘freedom of speech and information’. You can try www.aljazeera.net This Arabic-language site has pictures. Aljazeera is a very interesting broadcasting company. On Dutch, German, Belgium and French TV their is a lot of attention for it, luckely. Aljazeera breaks up lot of American & British lies. Tarik Aziz dead ? He’s life on Aljazeera. Bashra taken by the coalition ? Centre of Bashra is free of American’s, Iraqi people do shoppping. Umm Qassr in hands of the British ? Aljazeera shows it’s a lie. Aljazeera is not very loved in the middle east because it also attacks Saddam and other dictator’s in the middle east !
robin 3
Posted by robin on Mar 31, 2003 at 10:59 AM If everything in your life is black or white, there’s a good chance you are a dickhead.
P.S. I’m a tourist in London who does wish for the safety of troops on both sides, doesn’t support the war in any way but does acknowledge that Saddam Hussein is not good for the people of Iraq. It is a shame that the comments against Michael Moore were personal, (ie fat bastard). I did notice comments in favour of him were generally well written and not personal.?
Let’s all hope there is a quick resolution to this conflict and that we get back together. The terrorist group/s responsible for September 11 must be delighted that now we’re fighting at new levels among ourselves???
Posted by Cameron on Mar 31, 2003 at 11:20 AM Did anyone notice that the comments “contra” Michael Moore are the ones that sport the most (and the worst) spelling mistakes? Does that tell you something? To me, it speaks volumes. :-) It confirms again that education is the only means of promoting tolerance and democracy.
And while we’re at it, I’d like to use this opportunity to quote one of the greatest minds of “old Europe”, Voltaire: “I disagree with what you say, but I would fight to the death for your right of saying it.”
Posted by Miglena on Mar 31, 2003 at 11:24 AM > MM should be taken out and shot
> Shmae on you for covering this idiotThank you for proving to the rest of us that supporting this war and believing the absurdities our idiotic president is imposing to us is systematically synonym of undeniable ignorance. I suggest you apply for a passeport and travel a little bit to the outside world.
Posted by Patriotic American 2 on Mar 31, 2003 at 12:02 PM thank you mr moore for your immortal speech.you were the voice of the millions who are not heard.
Posted by huzema on Mar 31, 2003 at 12:16 PM WAR IS NEVER EVER THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!! KILLING PEOPLE CHILDREN AND WOMEN IS NEVER EVER RIGHT YOU STUPID AFRAID FUCKS; I WISH YOU TO BE AN IRAQI CHILD AND GET YOUR LEG AND YOUR MUM SMOKED BY BUSH!!!YOU BULLSHIT PATRIOTS MAKE ME SICK; A REAL PATRIOT WOULDN’T FOLLOW BLINDLY A MADE NON ELECTED PRESIDENT!!!
Posted by Arend Remmers on Mar 31, 2003 at 12:27 PM hi,micheal,
i am glad that you
are an AMERICAN…......thanx!god bless and protect you and
all the victems of that cruel war
against the whole univers!ys…..peter
*HARE KRSNA*
Posted by peter puehler on Mar 31, 2003 at 12:39 PM Why is it that if America goes to war it’s unpatriotic for Americans not to support it? Isn’t criticism and free thought what you’re ‘president’ is fighting for?
Watch something besides CNN/FOX/NBC and think for yourselves. If you do, you may just avoid another 9/11.
Posted by Will on Mar 31, 2003 at 1:06 PM Mr. Moore you write as well as you speek! Just hope that your fellow country men will understand once for all that they live in a beutiful place which they like and cherish and is no reason for the others on earth to think differently about their own countries.
As you saw GUYS some Irakians are saying that they donn’t like Saddam but they don’t like americans in their country either!
Saddam is evil but he is only ONE STUPID WITHE Irakian !
Posted by Ligia on Mar 31, 2003 at 1:29 PM It’s refreshing to see that some Americans are aware of what the rest of the world can see is happening. I applaud Michael Moore for his bravery in using his freedom of speech without regard for those who wish he didn’t. With people like him in your country, everything that america is supposed to stand for actually becomes a possibilty as opposed to presidentential spin.
Posted by Neil Delaney on Mar 31, 2003 at 1:42 PM i love the u.s.a., i love american’s, i love the way your country was built, but can you really support a president who is selfish and doesn’t listen to the majoritiy of the world community?
Posted by A Swiss who loves the USA on Mar 31, 2003 at 1:48 PM I’ve always been impressed by Michael Moore’s journalism. And now I’m even more convinced that he’s the new Ralph Nader. It was a film company here in Halifax that backed “Bowling for Columbine” because he couldn’t find anyone to touch the issues of guns and violence. Anyone else out there with an unpopular opinion they want to express, just come here.
Posted by Linda on Mar 31, 2003 at 2:03 PM The spelling and grammar on this comment section is really terrible. It is difficult to respect a persons opinion when they cannot even manage basic grammar. Shmae on you Michael riley for not even proof-reading. Like Moore, I imagine that your high school career may have been somewhat limited. And mark, dear me, a democracy is singular so the verb should not be in the plural form. Remember boys and girls, knowledge is power.
Posted by Geoffrey on Mar 31, 2003 at 2:16 PM I have been a big Moore fan since I stumbled onto his work a few years ago.
You’ve gotta love this guy, he’s fantastic. There may be hope for the US after all.
GO MIKE!!!
Posted by mart on Mar 31, 2003 at 2:26 PM Tom from Denver wrote
FACT: Iraq only exports 5.6% of the TOTAL OIL used in the ENTIRE WORLD. The United States only imports 20% of it’s oil from the ENTIRE Middle East. People who think this war is about oil only need to look at how the Iraqi regime is fighting this war to determine what this war is really about.In reality, the real issue is who has the REMAINING oil.
Iraq has at least ten percent.
The US has three percent (we reached peak production in 1970 - even Alaska is in decline).
Saudi Arabia has one quarter of the remaining oil.
The US conquering of Iraq is intended to give the US control over Europe and Japan’s oil - and their economies, especially as the world seeks a more multi-polar economy (think “Euro” vs. dollar).
http://www.oilempire.us has more on this
Sure Saddam is a brutal thug - but that’s why George HW Bush supported him for so long - and his replacement will also be a brutal thug, if the US has anything to do with the selection
Posted by mark on Mar 31, 2003 at 2:36 PM We in Canada just don’t understand the seeming obsession with America for its warmongering and bullying the rest of the world. People like Michael Moore restore our faith that not all Americans are determined to recreate the world in their own image.
Posted by J. Maskell on Mar 31, 2003 at 2:36 PM I Quote:
*****
READER COMMENTS
i looked this up to see who this fat fuck was so that i can make a note to never see one of hiw works. yes, this is a democracy - that speaks with their wallets.
Posted by: mark on 3.24.03 | 9:45 pm fromwhether it is you or the SAG, comparing the supreme bufoon Michael Moore to other historical dissenters is fantasy.Moore is a gnat ,high school drop out who is andy warholing his 15 minutes into our face. Shmae on you for covering this idiot.shame on you.
Posted by: Michael riley on 3.24.03 | 9:45 pm from new jerseyMM should be taken out and shot
Posted by: DB on 3.24.03 | 10:07 pm fromI am a Vet and to think I fought for this assholes right of free speech makes me puke
Posted by: Benson on 3.24.03 | 10:13 pm from New Hampshire*******
Just some examples.
Is this the freedom you Americans want to bring to Iraq? The respect you’re requesting and not giving? You can be for or against Moore positions, but using these words won’t help you. Expecially the first comment… he never saw a Moore’s movie, and he shout loudly “this fat fuck”. What I think many Americans missed, is some autocriticism. Sometimes to be proud of our own country mix up with to be blind. This shouldn’t. If you hold dear the tenet of free speech, try to demonstrate so.
Posted by Matteo on Mar 31, 2003 at 2:38 PM The war to conquer the Middle East (World War 3 - or is it 4?) is also about the fact that world oil production / extraction is nearing its all time peak. Since our entire global economy—transport, food production, medicine, etc.—is totally dependent on petroleum inputs, those that own the US (far beyond Bush) have decided to conquer as much of the world’s oil fields as possible.
We could use the remaining oil to shift toward a more solar powered, local production society that meets everyone’s basic needs. Instead, the US regime has decided to institute “neo feudalism” and seize the oil to play King of the World.
The rest of the world is much, much more aware of this than the CNN viewers of America.
By the way, the phony “911 Commission” is meeting this week (March 31 and April Fools Day) to supposedly investigate what happened. Its chairman, who replaced the notorious war criminal Henry Kissinger, is a board member of Amerada Hess petroleum - which means that a business partner of Osama bin Laden’s brother in law will “investigate” what happened. Don’t count on questions being asked about the deliberate refusal to “scramble” our trillion dollar Air Force until it was too late.
For those who know history, 911 was the “American Reichstag Fire.”
Posted by mark on Mar 31, 2003 at 2:48 PM Well… did anyone honestly expect anything else from Michael Moore?? The only thing that was not okay with the entire thing was that I had to watch it in the middle of the night here in Denmark hoping that Bowling for Columbine would win the Oscar that it deserved. I have always had mixed feelings about Americans and the entire culture, so I went to investigate and lived in Chicago for a couple of years. Don’t get me wrong - I liked what I saw - but now the old Shakespeare qoute “There’s something wrong in the state of Denmark” doesn’t apply anymore (AGAIN - don’t get me wrong - I know that the Danish government are some of the only supporters of Mr. Bush’s crusade to become the next Ceasar). We need to take a look at the world and adjust our oppinions and beliefs. One thing that my stay in the US taught me is that people all over the world - as people - are the same. Nothing sets a farmers boy from N. Dakota apart from a boy from Istanbul or Kabul for that matter…
In times like these, it seems that the silent majority have no say and no voice - that’s why we need people like Bono and Moore to speak out for the millions of people that never have that chance. I suggest that in order for Americans to learn more about the world, there should be at least one hour of mandatory foreign news on every single network (I know that might result in a delay of American Idol or American Gladiators, but does anyone care???) - Learn about the world, and realize that patiotism does not justify killing innocent civilians. The US might end up being disliked by every single nation on the planet. I know that might not mean ANYTHING to many Americans, but they might as well realize, that the world does not go from L.A. to N.Y. - you only make up about 360 million of a total world population of more than 6 billion… I’ll let you do the math.
It’s just sad, that me, a 20-year-old student from Denmark, has to worry about how the world looks tomorrow - and not being able to find an answer OR a reason. Believe me - all you Americans - I really want to understand you, but I can’t…
Posted by Peter Nielsen on Mar 31, 2003 at 3:09 PM It falls to the unlikely heros like In These Times to cover and report the truth when the bought and sold major media are failing in their job. It falls to heros like Mike Moore to tell it like it really is and to dullards who think it is the American way to stifle opposition rather than debate it. The truth is being shouted across America and the world but the Bush admonistration keeps futilely pressing the mute button. Peace.
Posted by Shawn Inlow on Mar 31, 2003 at 3:20 PM Michael Moore is the guy that we look at in the UK to show us that you yanks aren’t all ignorant fucks. I applaud him and all the people in the states who, although it isnt being reported by pro-bush press, are willing to risk their careers and in many cases thier lives for standing up against this illegal war
Posted by vish on Mar 31, 2003 at 3:24 PM three cheers for Michael and the courage to say what he and “silent voices” are experiencing at the dictates of despotic leaders.
Posted by arlene on Mar 31, 2003 at 3:30 PM In reading the responses to the above article, I am more convinced than ever that so many “Americans” remain ignorant and ridiculously opinionated about issues that terrify them. The truth is Michael Moore spoke the truth and that scares the shit out of some of you.
Posted by sara on Mar 31, 2003 at 3:42 PM Judging by many of this morning’s rantings a whole lot of murderous video warriors must’ve gotten their booster shot of FOXnews or the other Fascist media panderers. Big talkers, they are the worst sort of wussies ever known. Too afraid to join up themselves and do what they claim is right-kill and destroy Iraqui children and innocent civilians and anyone who doesn’t agree with them. What a courageous stance they put on! How valiant is it to shout your jingoistic, party-line vituperations in support of WAR. None of you know the first thing about WAR. You are emboldened by the fact that yours and everyone else’s rights are taken away but that at least you’re on the, “acceptable”, side of the issue. Yeah, real heros. Only those who do not support this atrocity that’s been shoved down our throats have any real guts, a la Mike Moore because, as our rights are being undermined, it may be just a matter of time before whoever doesn’t slavishly follow the dictates from our oligarchs is even now risking being labeled an enemy of the state. Of course all I’ve just said is much to the rabid video warriors’ delight. What they don’t want to face is that as the freedoms are eroded due in large part to their mindless support of an illegally installed President, eventually, they may be on his Gulag list just like us, for whatever reason they see fit. So, bray on you asses. What goes around does come around. I guess in the absence of any empathic attributes the only way you’ll understand is when you are personally being attacked. And it will happen to you eventually, in one way or another. At that time it won’t matter how well you lick the jackboots pressing down upon your scrawny throats….you’ll get yours and they won’t even have to give you a reason. I hope that then you’ll come to understand just how complicit you were in helping bring this breakdown of civilization!
Posted by Dominick on Mar 31, 2003 at 3:48 PM I was reading some of the posts and I have come to the conclusion that most Americans support Michael Moore and his views. The ones who don’t seem to be redneck chumps who have little or no knowledge of foreign policy. It’s ok though, you guys are footing the bill for Cheney, Wolfowitz and Co. Bush just got 75 Billion from you to go directly to the defense contractors. I’m glad my country does not support this illegal war, but I wish your soldiers all the best carrying out Osama Bin Bush’s twisted agenda. Hopefully they won’t shoot each other as much as they did in the last Gulf War (which actually was a noble cause).
Posted by Eric on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:04 PM Dear Mr. Hardy,
I believe that some points of your bowling critisism are right. BUT: please, some points irritate me, the part: *this plane killed viatnamese peolple* etc. please, do you think some people actually thought there were standing those exact words on the plate MM said. Of course he stresses his points by exagurating some or most of them. and I dont care, like you said his conclusions maybe (ARE) right and he chose a drastic way to show that!!!! maybe youre a little jealous? you are an author aren’t you?
MM wants to wake up his country, and if you want to wake up someone up who is in a deeeeeeeeep sleep, like most of the americans, you can’t just whisper, you have to shout as loud as you can!!! And if his voice isn’t loud enough, I don’t blame him for using a megaphone!
Don’t try to bring him down, you know he’s right! I’m not saying that you’re jealous, but don’t be!!! Support him!
Post my fat sentence, please.
thx for reading my opinion!
Arend Remmers, Berlin, Germany
Posted by Arend Remmers on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:04 PM If you did your *homework* properly, you would have noticed that the *lightening-killing* sentence is in ‘stupid white men’ in these exact words!!!! MM does not say school shooting happens three times a day, he doesn’t scare people like the media!
Do you support the war?
Did you vote for Bush?
Do you think he is your elected president?
If you answer all these questions with *yes*, I’m clear about you and have no further questions.
Have a nice day, enjoy yourself! The bombs won’t crush your house! :-)
Posted by Arend Remmers on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:06 PM ok guns don’t kill people, people kill people! Let’s say that’s true. But what happens when these people didn’t have access to guns, simply because guns are forbidden and somehow not there!? Ok you wouldn’t have your UZI and you could’t blow a 18 years old robber his brains out. What would you prefer, your big screen TV or the boys life? Maybe a baseball bat would do it simply breaking the boys legs or something. Let’s say no guns but every american citizen is allowed to own a baseball bat! broken bones instead of brains lying next to a black boys…
Arend Remmers, Berlin
Posted by Arend Remmers on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:07 PM Dear Mr. Hardy,
I got you! You posted that *intelligent* mail not because itself was intelligent but because you knew so intelligent answers for it! You love yourself don’t you?! You think you’re so damn clever!? You think that the best intelligence to have comes right out of your ass!?
You’re frustrated. You are a sad man. MM did something clever, he used old tricks to stress his points, he made the whole world listen to what he has to say. But noooooo baaaaaaaad boooy! He used tricks! Shame on Moore! Bad boy! Oh no and he got an Oscar and a dozen other prizes for it, and all the money at the box office, oh no he got a little rich!!! Make it as bad as it could be! Do it! Then compare it to what Bush did! Bush used tricks, little tricks to fool the whole world, an oh no he got to be the president of the most powerful country on earth! And OOOOOH NOOOOOOO I think he and his pals got a little rich…
I wouldn’t know of Bush’s bad tricks if MM didn’t made his little tricky movie which led me to his little funny book!!!
Yours
Arend Remmers, Berlin, Germany
Posted by Arend Remmers on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:07 PM Most people who oppose Michael Moore’s remarks have never had an original thought. They read what they say on websites or hear it said on MTV. Then they repeat it. Here is my plead: don’t speak if you’re ignorant. Do your homework. Think. Learn. Use your mind. And if you’re in the service, God bless you for defending this country. We support bringing you home as quickly as possible.
PS> notice all the mistypes in the notes against Michael?
Posted by Another Patriotic American on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:08 PM these are eMails I wrote to Mr. Hardy. He is a bad ass critic about Moore. Read him on his page but don’t be fooled by what he is trying to do! Yes Moore used some bad tricks in his movie but bad tricks are necessary to fight bad trickky fucks like Bush!!!dont forget that!!!
Posted by Arend Remmers on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:10 PM OPEN UP YOUR EYES AMERICA!
When you start to salut with a straight hand, its going to be to late.
Dont make the same mistakes.
I BELIEVE IN YOU AMERICA!
Posted by A. Brown on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:14 PM God Bless you MM. You speak for the ordinary man. As for George Bush jr.: You are nothing but a spokesman for the zionist lobby whose dicks you ever-so-readily suck!!! Fucking conservative scum!!!
Posted by Jason on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:33 PM Michael Moore was absolutely right in his remarks about the war and bush. It is sad to see Americans backing a man who was not elected fairly and is in the hip pocket of corporate America.
Posted by James on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:35 PM Praise on you Mr Moore, Praise on you Mr Moore, thank you brother for being yourself & letting the world know that these are indeed ficticious times that we live in, I must also add that to my amusement my 2 year old daughter is now saying Shame on you Mr Bush, 2 or 92 the message is the same in any language.
Peace
Pardip
Posted by Pardip Kumar on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:55 PM let bush lead the troops into battle and moore have the whitehouse. i’m sure he, as an elightened, rational and humane individual, would do more for the common good than bush could ever hope to (not that he would hope to). moore is spot on, and i for one am relieved that there is someone who cares to make my voice, and the voice of millions of others, heard in this supposedly “free” and democratic world which has smothered our rights and ignored its obligations. this article just proves that there are simply a few ignorant people in powerful positions attempting to silence this collective voice, but it looks like moore got the message through, at least to those at the ceremony. thank god for people like moore who have the courage to speak up.
Posted by so would have i on Mar 31, 2003 at 4:56 PM I would like to point out something to all the right-wing nuts posting stuff on this board about Michael Moore’s education as compared to the “President’s” Michael Moore may have only had one year of community college and Bush went to Yale, but Michael Moore isn’t president nor did he have thw advantage of having a daddy senator. Michael Moore may not be perfect, but Bush certainly isn’t, what with all the boozing and coke. Stop trying to crucify Moore and martyr Bush. Moore isn’t making up polls or fudging facts. Like he said himself, he’s a documenterer and he deals in facts. and by the way, if we go to war , it shouldn’t be led by a ckoke-fiend
Posted by andrew on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:09 PM I’m amazed how many people responding to this article are so polarized. Everyone step back for a moment and think clearly about Mr. Moore. I’m certain he is sincere in all his beliefs. I’ve seen his film and read his articles and believe him to be, at the very least, sincere. However, it is important to note that one can be sincerely wrong. The majority of Americans do not support Mr. Moores views, nor are his views exculsively moral. (Note that I am not saying that they are immoral, I’m just saying that people who disagree with him can disagree in a moral and American way.) Mr. Moore lives in a tiny world where so many people agree with his narrow opinions that he’s concluded that eveyone agrees with him. Which is simply wrong. (The same can be said of Bill O’Reilly, who honestly believes everyone agrees with him.) It is just as wrong as his belief that only 5 people booed him at the Oscars. (I hate to break this to anyone who wishes to be so ignorant, but it doesn’t take a sound editor (which I am) to know that 5 boos sounds different from 200 boos. And those were undeniablly 200 boos.) But the correct response to this is not immature and obscene Moore-bashing. The correct response is to give him the respect any human being deserves, debate him, and finally speak with your votes come election year. This is a Republic, after all. So, stop embarrassing yourselves and all reasonable conservatives.
Posted by Matthias Shapiro on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:17 PM THE ONLY THING THAT BECOMES CLEAR BY READING ALL THESE POSTS IS THAT THERE ARE IGNORANCE & HATE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE & IT COMES FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD!!!!
AND CANADA, SHAME ON YOU! I CANNOT BELIEVE THE POST FROM THE U.S. NEIGHBORS TO THE NORTH. I LIVE IN BC & KNOW DAMN WELL THAT THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US & THEM IS THE POPULATION & WE DON’T HAVE AS MUCH GUN VIOLENCE… YET… BUT WE ARE HEADED THAT WAY!
I PRAY FOR PEACE & HOPE THAT WE CAN ALL LEARN TO GET ALONG & EMBRACE EACH OTHER’S DIFFERENCE’S AS WE ARE A MULICULTURAL SOCIETY!
AND TO WHOEVER YOU BELIEVE IN, PLEASE PRAY FOR THE SAFE RETURN OF THE SOLIDIERS WHO HAVE BEEN SENT TO FIGHT THIS UGLY WAR AS WELL AS THE IRAQI PEOPLE WHO HAVE SUFFERED LONG ENOUGH!
Posted by HMMMMM on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:23 PM This is a truly brilliant man, who is not afraid to stand up for what he believes in. He does not just run his mouth without any facts to support what he says, he backs up everything he says, and he should be applauded for what he has done so far. He absolutely deserves it.
Posted by Kyle on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:43 PM Thank you for your article, Joel!!!It is the artist’s job to reflect society’s conscience back to society! Have any of the “Good Americans” out there, backing the war studied American history; the stuff we learned in third grade, The Boston Tea Party? You know, “TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION” revolution, brought to us by “Good Americans” protesting unfair taxes on TEA! Most of us are working stiffs, paying premium prices for most everything, with little or no savings to show for it, after our bills are paid each month. Heavily taxed, our taxes are not making the schools better, do not cover our healthcare, do not make the roads or tranportation systems better, do not protect our water ($1.50 for a 12oz. bottle of WATER) or food supply and go mostly to making more bombs and weapons that add to the countless we already have. Corporations robbing us blind pay no taxes, GET SUBSIDIES (WELFARE) from our TAX dollars to keep their doors open. ENDLESS ADVERTISING is a corporate TAX WRITE-OFF. Unemployment is rampant; where is the kinder and gentler leader’s son on that, and the nose dive of the economy? Michael Moore is the working stiff who’s made good. Speaking his mind. Asking the questions all of us are asking: why ARE WE THE BIGGEST BULLY nation on Earth? Why do we think we can give some tiny country (with a massive oil supply-Hmmmm, Oil…Gas prices have just DOUBLED…Bush & Cheney are OIL Executives….Hm) an ultimatum, then claim, “Time’s UP!” And go in and drop thousands and thousands of PLUTONIUM DEPLETED Bombs on nation about the size of California, amidst WORLDWIDE PROTEST, before we have even used diplomacy to its fullest? Isn’t this what Hilter did??? And, HOW did SADDAM all of a sudden, REPLACE Bin Laden, as the “#1 Evil Doer” in thin air? What happened to THAT “evil doer”, after we BOMBED Afganistan into oblivion, then dropped the subect, like a hot potato, to move on to good old “evil doer that dad missed the first time around”, Mr Hussein. The world is watching, and are well aware of what we do. American TV and Newspapers are a smoke screen.
BRAVO to Michael Moore! Thanks!
Posted by K King on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:45 PM “I never saw combat, in fact I never left Georgia…. I mentioned that only to say that, including in my own case, veteran status doesn’t count for much in the framework of this debate….
Posted by: Tom on 3.29.03 | 7:28 pm from Denver, CO”
Tom, I might say to know the rest of the world: my family is spreaded between London, NYC, Cincinatti, I was born in Peru, my husband is french, I used to live in Germany, England, Ecuador and nowadays in Chile, and during the last couple of weeks, just at the time the war began I was travelling through Uruguay and Argentina. Actually I watched and cheered Michael Moore¥s speech at the Oscar’s from Buenos Aires, together with some colleagues from Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador and the US.
If I watched the ceremony it was only in order to ensure what I used to admire in US citizens: its courage and freedom to speak the truth. Although I always felt as a “citizen of the world” and respect everybody, I was beginning to feel sick abouth “americans” Coming from a Third World country, allows me better to understand poverty and sickness from the Iraki people, moreover after the so called controlling “embargoe” sponsored by US and UN, which has lasted too long. That is something that, you, Tom, probably lacked, living in such an “easy” world as the US, no matter how hard do you work. (By the way, I DO have an authistic son, as well, and understand very well many of your feelings.)
Thanks Mr. Moore, you and many others in this forum convinced me that there is still something valuable in the U.S., which helped US to rise where it is now and which still gives us hope to the rest of the world. I do not think that the US is well represented by many of those “nutcases” who consider themselves “patriotic” just by insulting Mr. Moore, vets or US people who believe in peace.
I have not find anybody nowadays who understands or support “Bush’s” war. What I felt is general “fear” about what is going on and what this US war is going to bring to the world. I always believed that those who hold power, of whatever kind, are forced to behave more responsible and respectful, as their actions might seriously affect the rest of us.
As a “world citizen”, I pray to God in order for Hope and Peace to prevail, moreover in the US. Otherwise, it is not only the US which will pay, ...
Posted by Maria on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:49 PM “The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly as necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.”—-Teddy Roosevelt
Posted by RJ on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:54 PM Its funny to see you irrational poeple cursing michael moore for using his god damn rights. Its funny that americans have a problem with fellow americans speaking thier minds. Its like if your not for this illegal war you should be shot. Now maybe in some other country you would be shot…but in the good old usa that is a FUCKING GIVIN RIGHT YOU STUPID WHITE MEN.
Posted by nick on Mar 31, 2003 at 5:57 PM My previous letter was to have been my last but after having read Mr. Shapiro’s, “detatched, objective, and elitist”, comment I couldn’t help but note just how vacuous and intuitively inferior are his mental faculties. Yes, as as sound editior you, unlike all others who have well-thought out, probably excruciatingly soul-searched commentaries that can ONLY be heard within this egalitarian forum are obviously a cut above the rest of us. One can discern an aloof, detached man of the world with illimitable aplomb and poise in Mr. Shapiro. Unfortunately he, like so many other crypto fascists, (by the way, shame on you for that, judging by your last name), will not admit these voices who valiantly and now, perhaps, vainly against the sordid actions of this regime are not only discouraged by your media elites and their government masters but now may be completely censored if the likes of Ashcroft and Rumsfeld have their way. A small world, yes, Mr. Shapiro. However, having this space and a dwindling number of similar spaces to which you have also been privileged to contribute may be one of the last platforms wherein the voice of dissent may be publicly aired without being shouted down by the IMMORAL and power-crazed fools who have just enough guts to join in lock-step with their Warmonger puppeteers, (as long as they themselves don’t have to don a uniform and risk death). But no, Mr. Shapiro, you are incorrect in offhandedly assuming Michael Moore lives in an insular environment. Obviously you’ve never seen him in action. You’ve never witnessed his gifted ability to operate and sometimes be vilified within ALL strata of human experience.
Posted by Dominick on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:00 PM Michael Moore and These Times are the part of the US which I respect and love. I’m scared stiff when I think of the narrow minds who govern the States and assume they can govern the world. As an agnostic I think that only respect for life, any life, will bring peace to this planet. So lets get rid of dogmatism of any kind and adopt the compassion Michael Moore is advocating in his work. Start with your neighbour. I start with mark und Michael riley from New Jersey. Violette
Posted by Violette Moser on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:10 PM I just wonder the follwoing:
Why is this such a big issue with MM voicing his opinion at the Oscars award? This little forum has now an almost endless discussion regarding this. In a free, democratic country this shouldn’t even be an issue what he said and when he said it. We had a film award being given out here and numerous actors, directors and other famous people talked about everything from the palestina conflict to trafficing and drug use.
And not a single comment about if it was right or wrong. Why does MM 45sec long speech that happend a week ago still draw people to debate over it?I think I know why….but I will let you battle it out first…..
Posted by Bateman on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:15 PM Does anyone else find it interesting that the post refering to all the spelling errors in all the other posts has spelling errors?
Posted by Andrew D on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:20 PM On te issue of free speech, as Larry Flint said, “Free speech doesn’t potect the speech you like…”
Posted by andy on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:23 PM A small view from outside
What’s the heart of patriotism in a society, with more than 70% of all it’s children, not able to locate their own country on a globe (have you ever been in Rand McNelly)? - Without the voice of people like Michael Moore and others, for example those on the “Boycott Hollywood” list, my believe in the democratic principles of the (U.S.) American nation (ignorantly self claimed mother of all democracies) would have gone completely. - It’s a pity, that these voices are rarely heard in the rest of the world at the moment, as they could build the counterpart (necessary for a pluralistic democracy) to the widely growing picture of arrogance and ignorance. What can be seen from outside is, that thousands of demonstrants are getting arrested and the big networks do not even notice the hundreds of thousands that go on the streets to demonstrate their opinion. We get to hear wives of soldiers, that talk about the war as a big opportunity for their husbands (possibly the last chance to participate in a war), just as if it is a sports event. We get to hear people that think of war as a principle right for Americans to protect their interests, even if these interests are of financial nature. We hear your president comparing Germany with Iraq, Syria and north Korea. We hear about French Fries and French Toast eaten under a different name and we hear callings for a boycott on products from countries with different opinion. That’s some kind of childish behavior, we do not hear about in the opposite way. What would be the public American opinion, if the more than 80% of Europeans, that are against Bushs war, would call for a boycott of US products? I for myself wouldn’t have much problems to avoid “Burger King” or “Mc Donalds”, but would all Americans really prefer a GM over a Porsche, Mercedes or BMW? -
Extreme positions are the easiest to understand - and not only “terrorism” is always based on the easiest position possible: the good and the evil. No need to mention, that the good on both sides never hesitate to hitchhike god for their aims. Simple minded nations can not only be found in Arabic countries and never make the mistake to think their leaders are that simple minded, too - no matter, what you could believe at first, when you listen to them (although I have doubts about that point, regarding Bush).
Posted by Marco on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:24 PM (continued)
I have no doubts, that the Bush administration will solve the problem “Sadam”, like the “Americans” solved their native American problem, but their short-aim solution will be a victory for Sadam, as he is going to be one of the biggest heroes and martyrs, the Arabic world has to offer. And as long, as the real problems aren’t solved, Sadam will be a virtual leader in heart and mind for many generations of Muslim terrorists.
For the moment, I’m not able to see any differences in the way the Bush administration and Sadam argue. How can you expect, that the Iraqis will prefer Bush over Sadam, if not the Americans would prefer Sadam over Bush? - What about US-weapons of mass destruction and war crimes done by US military, why does the US not join the tribunal in Den Haag? - It’s just a question of your position what you are able or willing to see and what not - education, knowledge and open eyes can put you on a higher ground, bombs never will. Although Sadam is a problem in respect to liberty in Iraq, there are a lot more regimes, that are a problem in respect to the liberty of the world, including the liberty for each nation to decide on their own administration and the liberty of administrations to decide on their nations recourses.
The Iraq (a country with virtual borders, drawn by the leaving British occupiers, dividing “their” territory in different countries) went “independent” in the 20s but their massive oil reserves belonged to one Iraq company in the hands of Brits (47%), US Americans (29%), French (29%) and Iraqis (5%). This situation continued (over many regimes, that came and went) until 1972 Sadam changed this situation with the help of Russia (to prevent a war with US and or GB).
Posted by Marco on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:25 PM (continued)
What about Katar, the host country for the US headquarter in the gulf region? - Katar is far away from being a democracy and Katars minister of inner affairs (former minister for Islamic questions) is not only Al Kaida friendly, but also hosted a lot of Al Kaida members in his private houses, financed them and helped them to escape from being arrested (1996 FBI knew about later mastermind behind 9/11, being in one of his houses in Katar).
What about Saudi Arabia, Bin Ladens home country? Not democratic at all but with a lot of Al Kaida friendly and financing members in the kings family.
What’s the difference between Iran and Iraq on the one side and other Arabic countries like Saudi Arabia, Katar and Kuwait on the other? - They all together bear the biggest oil reserves in the world, none of them is really democratic (if at all) but are all their regimes US friendly?
Bin Laden and Sadam have only one thing in common, both were equipped and financed by the US in the 80s, Bin Laden for fighting the Russians in Afghanistan and Sadam for fighting Khomeni, who was chosen by the Iran nation over the Schar, who was the choice of the US.
I think, there are a lot of people out there, that could solve some of the most emerging problems, raised from old imperialistic errors done in the last century for less than 70 billion US$ (not believing that this will meet the “total cost of ownership” for this war) and maybe it wouldn’t cost as many lives. But who would profit on the solution of real-people problems?
Never let others think for you, listen to 100 opinions, than build up your own and always ask yourself who will profit. If only the best are to be chosen to lead a country, it is most likely (statistically) not possible, that a son will follow his father if there are 280 Million other possible choices.
Just an unimportant opinion of an “old”-European.
Posted by Marco on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:26 PM well, All I know is no matter how much anyone hates to listen to people with different oppinions that have a right to say it. no matter how ignorant a person is, they can stil have a say. no matter how ill informed the people who posted a great many messages here they still can post here. by the by. Michale Moore is not a high school drop out, he is a collage drop out. but while in high school he did win an election to serve on the school board. he is a public servant, and it is obvious that many people here arn’t. too bad some people here don’t understand what Michael wants t do. but I guess they take their freedoms for granted
Posted by Alex on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:27 PM To Bateman,
I thought this earlier post summed it up nicely:
The organizers of the Oscars asked everyone involved not to use the podium as a political forum. They wanted to keep the ceremony low key in light of the events that were unfolding right before all our eyes in Iraq.
While Mr. Moore has a right to his opinion I feel his actions were disrespectful not only to the Academy but more importantly to our brave soldiers who are in Iraq fighting through no fault of their own.
He could have just as easily saved his comments for the press conference going on backstage but then that wouldn’t have been as self serving & we probably wouldn’t be here debating.Posted by: RED on 3.31.03 | 2:40 am from
Posted by Linda on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:31 PM MM should be put up against the wall and shot???
I take it that the buttfuck who published that comment didn’t bother to watch the film that won Moore an oscar.
Moore is entitled to his say. He’s worked hard, and in the face of overwhelming opposition which claims it believes in “freedom of speech”, and then seeks to censor or ‘put down’ anyone who’s views contradict their own.
If the actions of the stagehands and the organisers have achieved anything, it’s strengthened Moore’s stance on what he sees has happened to America.
Posted by Mike on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:32 PM These words say it all: As Nazi leader, Hermann Goering said during the Nuremberg trials: ìWhy of course the people donít want warÖ. but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, a parliament, or a communist dictatorshipÖThe people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. ì
Posted by R. Sadler on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:39 PM Still, there are quite a lot of things you Americans may be proud of. Michael Moore being one of them.
Posted by MSS on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:42 PM It’s chilling how much hatred and threats are being sent towards stars who would dare speak their minds. God Bless Michael Moore, and all of the other stars who would risk an ignorant blacklisting to speak for what they believe in. (And how is it that the concept of PEACE has become so controversial?) Hoorah to Mr. Bleifuss, for reporting the incident accurately.
Posted by Andrea on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:43 PM Mr. Moore is a brave American. A high qulaity film maker who lead my his conscience has and hopefully will continue to make thought provoking films that tell the real story. Not just oversimpified apologias of the ‘way it is’.. why is this way or that? He’s confronted the byproducts of cowardice that are the hallmarks of our sadly declining culture, as well as the corporate “hidden hand” that speaks to all from the comfortable if deluded anonymity of the “market” mentality and its traditions steeped in cruelty. Moore is a great man, a good irishman, and has my hands.
Posted by Mael Mac Seosamnh Ua'Kevlen on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:54 PM Say what you like about MM’s Oscar speech - at least he’s got people debating the issues, and that can only be a good thing.
I have to say though, that postings like Blaine’s last one don’t help the issue. Could people please post comments that contribute rather than insults and rants?
A much earlier post claimed that this war wasn’t about oil, on the grounds that the US doesn’t import oil from Iraq. Er - doh! If the coalition forces are victorious, I’d bet my Cantona shirt that the US will be importing oil from Iraq within 5 years. Corporate America wants Iraqi oil, and once the country has been bombed to smithereens, Iraq will be so desperate for money they will sell to America. But it’s not just about oil - it’s about Dubya finishing what his Daddy didn’t, and it’s about keeping the Americans in a state of fear united against a (fictional) foe so they don’t have time or energy to concentrate on what’s wrong in their lives and their country. 1984 anyone?
25 British soldiers have been killed in the war so far - 5 in combat and 20 by friendly fire and in accidents. The US has the greatest army in the world? Then why is it killing its allies?
This is a list of countries the US has bombed since 1945:
China 1945/6 & 1950-53
Korea 1950-53
Guatemala 1954 & 1960
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959/60
Congo 1964
Peru 1965
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969/70
Guatemala 1967-69
Grenada 1983
Libya 1986
El Salvador and Nicaragua - throughout the 1980s
Panama 1989
Iraq - 1991 onwards
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Afghanistan 2001/2None of these bombing campaigns led to the establishment of humane democracies in the countries involved. The US has more military power than the next 10 most powerful countries put together. There is not a country on earth that is a credible military threat to the US. Terrorist activity, however, is another matter, and this bombing will only increase the likelihood of more people becoming terrorists.
Posted by Kirsten on Mar 31, 2003 at 6:58 PM I posted a message earlier that made it sound like Halifax is the centre of the universe for free speech. I don’t want anyone to think I believe the United States does not have any. Actually, as a former bookseller and now a library worker, I know the United States to be the most well-read people in the world, even beating out England.
However, as popular media lapses more and more into infotainment rather than offering pure journalism, it is up to the Michael Moores of this world to speak up—anywhere, anytime. Someone earlier mentioned that it wasn’t respectful for Moore to do what he did, but it’s not exactly “respect” the U.S. is showing overseas now, is it?
Bush is a two-dimensional thinker and unfortunately the impression we Canadians get up here is that most of the U.S. is like that too. That’s not true—the U.S. has a grand and laudable tradition of political discourse. But if anyone wants to know why it’s not coming across, I suggest you read Neil Postman’s books, particularly “Amusing Ourselves to Death”. His take on what’s going on with news. information and knowledge is that it’s being numbed and dumbed by television.
MM had some real kahunas to take a gliterrati piece of no-mindedness like the Oscars and turn it into a forum for discussion.
There’s hope for the States and the world—but open-minded souls like MM need better spin doctors, I guess.
Posted by Linda on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:10 PM Sorry, I have to post twice to get in everything I want to say.
Muslims are not war mongers. Islam is a peaceful religions, and the terrorists who happen to be Muslims are as representative of Islam as the IRA are of Catholics. But America seems to have a deep seated fear and loathing of Muslims and Arabs. Arabs see the US and the West as systematically suppressng and mistreating them, and then they see the US backing Israel in its appalling treatment of the Palestinians. The Jews are probably the most abused race of people in history, but that doesn’t give Israel the right to treat the Palestinians the way it does. Arabs, and some Arab nations have been treated dreadfully by the West, and they see the US as the symbol of all that. If you kick a dog for long enough, it bites you - and this bombing of Iraq will breed more terrorists.
But there are many powerful Jews in the US corporate and political worlds, and they have connections in Israel, and believe Israeli propaganda, and encourage the US in its dislike of Arabs. I am not an antiSemite and I have a lot of respect for Jewish culture. But thousands of years of illtreatment of Jews does not excuse Jewish illtreatment of Arabs.
Many people have commented on Americans’ lack of knowledge about the world. Surely this is because the US is so huge? To travel from the west to the east coast is like a British person travelling to Russia or China. The distances are vast! Add to that the fact that many Americans only get 2 weeks paid holiday per year, and you can see why only 10% have passports. But there is no excuse for the shocking lack of interest in world affairs shown by the US media.
I will finish here by saying Spike - you are named after the sexiest TV character ever - and - I wish you all peace.
Posted by Kirsten on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:20 PM I only can say that Micheal Moor is the American what OLD EUROPE likes!!!He says what he`s thinking!!!I want to thank all the people who are against the war of this fucking Bush`s he only has enemies in OLD EUROPE a few assholes think it is right but WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER!!!
Posted by Maximilian Hirt on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:25 PM Kirsten:
This forum is about MM & how people felt about what he said at the Oscars. Some agree, some don’t. We are all entitled to our voice & shouldn’t be chastised one way or the other.
We are all guilty nations when it comes to the disrespect of others & that includes the European nations! And don’t even get me started on our Prime Minister, Mr. Chretien, who has disrespected EVERYONE around the world including the French from which he descended.
The fact is this world is in horrible shape & to try & blame one nation for all the turmoil in the world is not only ridiculus but very naive.
Posted by Linda on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:45 PM Michael Moore is an American hero. Those who speak with their wallets and led by their noses with the nonsence on the popular media do not have the depth or willingness to look for the truth. Mr. Moore has found only a few of the truths and they are hard to understand who speak with and sit on their wallets they use for brians.
Posted by John on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:47 PM As one wise person said earlier… “Just watch & see where the money goes.” I have no doubts at all that the French & the Germans will be in line for their “fair” share since their oil interests in Iraq far exceeds the US.
Posted by Hmmmm on Mar 31, 2003 at 7:54 PM Michael Moore gives me the hope that US government will leave this godless and imperialism path. If US citizens don’t kick out this policy—the whole world including “old europe” will be united against USA.
Posted by Manfred on Mar 31, 2003 at 8:16 PM Never more so than now has the American mass media proved its ability to confuse and manipulate. Both in coverage of this Academy Award speech and the Iraq war information is manipulated.
There is always more than one side to present. We all know this yet we fall victim to the frighteningly similar reports from the network and mainstream media outlets.Whether you agree or disagree with Mr Moore, remember no government has ever done a “good deed” without getting a pay off somewhere. Mr Moore is entitled to his views. Long may he stand up and remind us all to speak from truth and facts. (Afterall it is now fact that George Bush did not win the election. Just coincidence that the deciding state was Florida where his brother is governor?)
One last thing… what happened to Osama bin Laden? I thought he was Bush’s enemy too. Are we not supposed to talk about that either? Sorry I was supposed to shut up and repeat after CNN…or was that NBC…Fox? They all overlap so much that I cannot tell the difference.
Posted by American seeking refuge abroad on Mar 31, 2003 at 8:53 PM It is really refreshing to hear the oppinions of liberal thinking people (as opposed to FoxNews). I am glad to see that there are so many who can see the situation for what it is: a man using his first amendment rights to make the world more aware that we have a nazi in the whitehouse. After the Oscars, I said a prayer for Michael Moore. I asked God to protect him from gun-toting psychos/ neo-conservatives such as Rush/Bill O’Reilly/the followers of the aforementioned/ and anyone else who would do MM any harm for speaking the truth. I hope you all will do the same. It doesn’t matter what God you worship. God speaks every language and has seen every country (as opposed to our “whitehouse squatter”. Also, I hope you will do your duty as a citizen and express your extreme distaste for this war and our “president” by email-ing your senators and your congressional representative. (www.senate.gov and www.house.gov, respectively) It only takes a minute to state your opposition to the war and our leader (or lack thereof). I hope you will support Michael and all those who would wage peace by telling your elected leaders your thoughts. Good day to all
Posted by Rachel on Mar 31, 2003 at 8:53 PM Thank you Michael Moore. I just hope when the next election comes around that we use our vote to end this current administration instead of just gripe about it.
Posted by sharon on Mar 31, 2003 at 9:58 PM it’s nice to know that there are peo-le who know this junta in washington installed by a corrupt state government & a corrupt supreme court can not get away with an illegal war. when the body count keeps growing maybe then the people who think his fraudulancy is the best thing since white bread(he has that kind of personallity) willcome to their sences a vote the liitle twirp out of washington.
Posted by nick on Mar 31, 2003 at 10:09 PM Mark, DB, Micheal Riley, and the person too scared to use their real name calling themself “michaelmooreisabigfatbastard: You are the problem with this country. You are ingnorant. You are being slapped in the face, falling right into the hands of bush and his greedy cabinet.
WMD in Iraq? N. Korea is putting nukes in our face yet we do nothing? Oh, they don’t have the world’s second largest oil supply. Who’s getting 1.5 billion dollars in contracts to rebuild Iraq? You guessed it, Dick Cheney’s prior employer. (actually you are probably not insightful enough to consider these ideas) You ever research how many friends bush and cheney have that are defense contractors? (I would guess that you have not)
Hey, ever wonder why bush signed to have the tapes and files of the Reagan administration kept locked away? Maybe some bad shit about daddy bush? bush is acting in a moronic way, and so are you for supporting him. He is vieling his family and cabinet’s insatiable lust for money and power with the idea of “liberation”. The American public is who needs to be liberated - from this tyrannical dicator - what about our poverty and lack of good schools? Come on- his damn brother is the governor of Florida- he was not elected. Gore won the popular vote. It is utterly insane that you would stand up for this man. If Saddam’s tyranny was the real reason for this war, rather than oil, then why wouldn’t bush be fighting for people in Africa and other third world countries who have been subjected to an assortment of genocide etc… Bush’s war is murdering our best and brightest, so that the administation and their heirs can continue to have money, power, and control over the weak - people like you. Michael Moore for president!!!!
Posted by Jeff on Mar 31, 2003 at 10:24 PM Is it just me or doesn’t it seems that all the pro-war comments posted here (and in other media) always have an aggressive and sarcastic undertone.
I think the problem we see now is something that boiled up during many many years. Americans in general have virtually now clue what is going on outised their own state. I have lived in the states for many many years and are still chocked over how most (not all) americans view the world. I saw a show the other night where 5 out of 30 randomly asked people knew where Iraq is at. They asked 20 people to point out sweden on a map. 3 got it right. 2 people placed it within the borders of the US. I have not heard of alot of my American friends beeing taught about other religions in depth in school. As an unamerican I was stunned how the notion of “America-the land of the free”, “God bless america” , “..we have the finest troops and the finest people”, “..we live in the finest of nations” etc etc. After I while I wondered “What are so special about the US freedom?”. Besides the freedom to buy and wear arms I couldn’t find any. Please someone help me. People said that they have freedom of speech, allowed to vote, can travel freely, let them decide over their own lives (is this still true I wonder?). The poor people in Iraq cant do this they said. Iraq?? Why benchmark against a 3rd world country??? Benchmark against a similar country , industrialized and western. And now…..look back up a few lines and ask the same question….
Posted by Bateman on Mar 31, 2003 at 10:44 PM I’m glad I read this story! I taped
MM’s speech, and noticed that most
people in the audience were smiling,
quietly, and I couldn’t tell who was
booing him. I feel better, now. MM
is here to stay, because we need him
in these scary times, when things
seems so unbalanced and unfair. When
corporations become this important
to government, is equals the coming
of fascism.
Posted by Sharyl on Mar 31, 2003 at 10:54 PM BATEMAN:
HOW ODD THAT YOU ONLY FIND IGNORANCE IN THE POSTS YOU DISAGREE WITH.
I THINK FOR THE MOST PART THE IGNORANCE IS CLEARLY DIVIDED ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE AS WELL AS BOTH SIDES OF THE WORLD & YOUR RAMBLINGS ONLY HELP TO MAKE MY POINT.
HATE & VIOLENCE & IGNORANCE ARE UNIVERSAL.
Posted by Linda on Mar 31, 2003 at 11:02 PM Source correction for those referencing Goering. The quote is NOT from the Nuremberg trials, though it IS, indeed, Goering. We need to be extra vigilant that our information is correct “in these times”:
Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.The quote (dated April 18, 1946) appears in the book Nuremberg Diary (Farrar, Straus & Co 1947), by Gustave Gilbert (an Allied appointed psychologist). Gilbert visited daily with Goering and his associates in their cells, afterwards making notes and ultimately writing the book about these conversations.
Posted by Tim on Mar 31, 2003 at 11:09 PM I saw George Bush on TV today twisting his mouth with a sneer and I just hate the mutherfucking son of a bitch.
Posted by Pete on Mar 31, 2003 at 11:45 PM Micheal Moore is not a high school dropout!! I loved what he said at the oscars, we need more people like him standing up for what the majority of people believe but are too scared to voice it!
Posted by Angela Hughes on Mar 31, 2003 at 11:56 PM It is so refreshing to hear a liberal american. I was’nt sure such a thing existed anymore. The hypocrisy of Bush et al is sickening and to be embarrassed by Michael Moore at the Oscars was great viewing.
Posted by Gerard on Apr 1, 2003 at 12:13 AM Michael Mooreís Fictitious Life
By Debbie Schlussel
He calls Bush, Cheney, and Ashcroft the “real axis of evil.” He blamed 9-11 attacks on too many White people and not enough Black men on the planes.
And in his Oscar Night diatribe, film-maker Michael Moore used his win of an Academy Award to rant against a “fictitious” President Bush, “fictitious election results,” and the War on Iraq, which he claimed was for “fictitious reasons.”
“We live in fictitious times,” he said when picking up the award for best documentary for his anti-gun film “Bowling for Columbine.”And Michael Moore should know. Because everything from his “working-class Joe” persona to his so-called documentary, for which he won the award, is largely fictitious.
Michael Moore is the master of the truly fictitious.
His public persona is that of an anti-corporate crusader from working-class Flint, Michigan, who wears a constant uniform of slouchy jeans, a plaid shirt and a Detroit Tigers baseball cap. But the real Michael Moore rides in limos and lives in a swanky $1.2 million Manhattan apartment. Mooreís “blue collar bonhomie” is bunk.
According to Detroit Free Press film critic Terry Lawson, Mooreís first documentary, “Roger and Me” featured manipulated facts and the breaking of established documentary rules.
Then thereís his “documentary,” “Bowling for Columbine.”
Documentary might not be the best word for this manipulative piece of cinematic celluloid. “Fictitious,” Mooreís current term of choice, would be more accurate.
That includes the title. Moore says he chose “Bowling for Columbine” because Columbine High mass murderers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold attended a bowling class the morning of the massacre. Reality check: Jefferson County Sheriffs, who investigated the killings, say they skipped the class that day, and have the attendance sheets and blank bowling scoring sheets to prove it. Had Moore bothered to check the official report of the police investigation, heíd have known that. But why bother with the facts when youíre the fictitious Michael Moore?
Posted by AH Moore on Apr 1, 2003 at 12:14 AM Mooreís vehement anti-war ideology gets the best of his fact-checking capabilities. His film implies Harris and Klebold had violent tendencies because of “weapons of mass destruction” produced by a Lockheed Martin assembly plant in their hometown of Littleton. “Bowling” actually features footage of giant rocket assembly to make the point. But, according to Daniel Lyons in Forbes Magazine, Lockheed Martinís Littleton plant makes space launch vehicles for TV satellites, not weapons.
And Mooreís anti-gun fervor also trumps the facts. He stages an event at North Country Bank and Trust in Michiganís Traverse City, claiming that opening an account would entitle one to walk out of the bank with a gun in hand. The film shows him doing just that. But the key word is “staged.” In reality, the bank does not provide guns for opening accounts, and you canít walk in or out of the bank with oneóunless youíre a security guard employed by the bank. The gun is one of several “giveaways” that can be chosen by customers in exchange for opening a CD account. In order to qualify for the gun, customers must open a 3-year CD with at least $5,000 and then must pass a background check for the gun, which can only be picked up at a licensed gun dealer.
Arguably, the worst fiction in Mooreís documentary is visited upon Hollywood Producer Dick Clark. Moore confronts Clark, trying to ask him question and accusing him of responsibility for the 2000 fatal shooting of 6-year-old Kayla Rowland of Mount Morris Township, Michigan, by her classmate, at Buell Elementary School.
Moore blames the shooting on Michiganís work-to-welfare program, which he claims prevented the shooterís mother, Tamarla Owens, from spending time with him. And he blames Clark, because Owens work-to-welfare job was at his “American Bandstand” restaurant at an area mall.
But Clark and the work-to-welfare program had nothing to do with it. Owens, who had three children with three different fathers and was once charged as a drug dealer, married a convicted drug dealer. Before the shooting. abandoned her son, turning him over to her brother, who lived in a flop house rife with stolen guns and ammunition, where drug deals went on at all hours. Michiganís Family Independence Agency reported that she was a poor mother, and she later lost custody of all three children, two of them permanently.
Posted by AH Moore on Apr 1, 2003 at 12:16 AM Blaming the shooting of a classmate by Owenís son on Dick Clark is nothing short of outrageous.
But thatís Michael Moore. A fictitious man living in a fictitious time. With a fictitious, Academy Award winning “documentary.” As Brian Rohrbough, whose son Daniel died at Columbine, said, “This is just a guy trying to capitalize on the tragedy of others.”
Mooreís latest best-selling book is “Stupid White Men. . . and Other Sorry Excuses for the State of the Nation,” As they say, it takes one to know one. But the stupidest and sorriest are not Moore and those he writes about, but those who fall for his propaganda.
Debbie Schlussel is a political commentator and attorney.
Posted by AH Moore on Apr 1, 2003 at 12:17 AM I usually watch ®The Awful Truth®. I think Michael Moore did up to his reputation during the Oscar thing. He puts into words what most of the world thinks. People like him are the ones that make America respected and trustworthy throughout the world. Something that people like Bush have undone.
Posted by Moti Carra on Apr 1, 2003 at 12:21 AM -
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