On day five of the war, it was supremely ironic that network television viewers had to tune into the 75th Annual Academy Awards ceremony to hear voices that questioned the wisdom of the Bush administration. Rumblings of protest began on Saturday. At the Independent Spirit Awards (the award ceremony for independent films) in Santa Monica, California, Maggie Gyllenhaal, the star of… return to article
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Reader Comments (2170)I have not posted on this site since Saturday evening.
I have skimmed the last several dozen entries and I am pleased to note that 75 to 80% of these postings seem to be well constructed and articulate.
As I have mentioned a number of times, I support military action in Iraq and I support our President. In my mind there is NO QUESTION who is on the right side of this fight(and no, that does NOT make me a “redneck chump”). I’ll say this again: I would rather have an intelligent conversation with someone that I am in complete disagreement with rather than listen to the ignorant, foul-mouthed rantings of someone who is supposedly on my “side.”
What I like most about this site is that most of the people here are engaging in spirited debate and the constructive exchange of opinions. I can usually tell in the first few words who the nimrods are, and I don’t finish reading those postings.
God Bless America and all of the free, opinionated people of this world!!!!
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 12:25 AM Look
No one likes war, me included however with that said I am pro peace. But peace cannot have value and be coveted without going through trials. If our peace is being threatened we must strike first to stop the threat. I have read 1930’s history about how everyone ignored Adolf Hitler and even tried to “appease” his government only to have to fight him when he was his strongest. Over 50 million people died in that war. Do you want to wait until our peace is attacked? Does a mushroom cloud have to rise over Chicago before we decide to do something. Sadam is a ruthless murdering animal that must be stopped and I garantee you that any country that harbors terrorists after this war will be in for a big awakening. We MUST face evil head on not with our heads in our A***S! If we must fight we must win!!! People like Sadam would like nothing more than a bunch of wimps and pussies (useless idiots) to further justify his regime and his way of governing.I do not like war any more than the next guy but we must show our confidence in our troops. Remember, they are there NOW so all of you wimps and pussies can whine about peace no matter what. Remember peace has no value without a fight!!!
Posted by Michael on Apr 1, 2003 at 12:44 AM Tom!
You’re exactly the person I was hoping to catch-up with in this discussion (since yours is the most conspicuous “non frothing” voice in favour of the war)
You mentioned in one of your last posts that you think the big US networks are doing a good job of reporting the news:
your quote: “the coverage of this war has been a resounding victory for journalism. The press is enjoying unprecedented access to the front lines and the facts. You can’t spin a story if a journalist is there to see it as it unfolds. Moreover, the coalition has awared 4 “embedded” slots to journalists from Al Jazeera. ” (sic)
I’d be interested in hearing your response to the following article, assembled by FAIR, the national non-profit group for “Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting”
http://www.fair.org/activism/iraq-sources-networks.html
Please let me know how your belief that the US media is doing a “great job” squares with the data.
(if you get the chance to “scan” the posts I’ve submitted over the past day, I’d appreciate your comments on those, too.)
From your friendly neighbour to the north…
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 12:54 AM OK. At the risk of revealing how uninformed I really am I’m going to move away from trying to discredit MM, or stroke his ego, and throw a few questions out there.
1. Have Bush + co presented any concrete evidence at all as to why Saddams Iraq poses such an IMMEDIATE threat?
And If Iraq is only PART of an infrastructure of terror, then how many other regimes are to be deposed before the world is safe from the boogie man?... Sorry I mean ‘terror’ (so much for me remaining relatively objective).Don’t get me wrong I believe that Saddam is an insane bastard and the sooner he’s gone the better, but I also believe in the sanctity, if not the effectiveness, of International Law. Let’s be honest about this, Bush + co have circumvented (and that’s a euphemism) Int. Law and instigated an illegal war. This should (but I wouldn’t be surprised if it didn’t) bring up all sorts of moral conundrums for for them; not the least of which is how they intend to justify it’s necessity to the American public and the International Community.
Anyway back to question time.
Once the military offensive is complete (and I pray that be soon), will there be a humanitarian one of equal scale?
And once Saddam and his cronies are removed, and a democratic system is installed, will it be one that is free from any economic obligation to it’s “liberators”?
Will Bush + co be able to waltz into Iraq, drastically improve the quality of life there, and then walk away without lining their pockets?
forgive me for being sceptical.Which brings me to my final question.
What pressure can the American public exert on it’s governing body to ensure isn’t just relieved of a scapegoat and it’s only real natural resource worth noting (well that I’m aware of anyway: refer to opening statement)?
What steps can we the global community take to ensure Iraq is rebuilt as effectively as it is blown up?
Posted by james on Apr 1, 2003 at 1:02 AM The Americans the most oppressed free people I know (Only slightly more oppressed than us British). Everyone knows Saddam is not a nice man and needs to go, but if Bush could have made a deal with him, you would not be fighting him now and donít let Mr Chirac fool you either, if it would have been in the French interest to over throw him theyíd be there now. There all a bunch of hypocrites just look at the Israel situation, its money and power and donít let anyone tell you different. Well done Michael Moore you are now a full member of the Surreal Anarchists.
Posted by Ozzy on Apr 1, 2003 at 1:04 AM Listen, Mike from AZ…
You fit the exact profile of those who, unable to present a reasoned argument in favor of this war, resort to abusing those with opposite views.
This case is very different from Hitler in the 1930s. To George Bush’s credit he succeeded in getting the inspectors back in Iraq and they were doing a fine job. Saddam was fully contained and incapacitated. Why go kill innocent Iraqis?
Listen, human life is human life, Iraqis love their children just as we love ours in America.
While you think that those opposing this unjust war should just shut up, remember that in every dawn of a new dictatorship and fascism free speech and opposition are always the first casualty. Looks like were are witnessing the beginnings of it.
If the founding fathers had just shut up and refuse to fight British oppression, you would not have the freedom you have today.
I guess I have responded to you. I will move on to other more reasonable commentators.
Posted by Peter on Apr 1, 2003 at 1:08 AM What an irony, the Repubilcans last week passed a Bill in Congress cutting Veteran benefits by $26 billion in this year’s budget.
This is happening even as we have veterans in the making laying down their lives in Iraq.
And the tax cut for the extremely wealthy stays.
Does anyone still need convincing that this administration is completely nuts?
How much more can they show lack of support for the troops? How will the troops in the battle field be motivated to fight when they hear this?
Posted by Peter on Apr 1, 2003 at 1:23 AM Thank you Mike!!! Thank god someone spoke the truth about that evil little Hitler Duyba!!!!!
Posted by Jordan Kontio on Apr 1, 2003 at 1:59 AM Tim from Winnepeg,
Thanks for the rebuttal. Thank you also for not calling me a “redneck chump” or “fascist sheep” based on my views, which to my delight, are very much in the minority at least on this site.
I read the article you directed me to and yes, based on the statistics in that article, I would say that there are real problems surrounding “equal” coverage of events and opinions. On that I agree wholeheartedly.
However, my earlier remarks about the coverage of this war being a success is based on the following:
1) The innovative idea of having “embedded” reporters with the troops. This allows us as viewers to see, for the first time, the battlefield as it really is. Moreover, having these reporters so close to the action limits the military’s ability to “sugar-coat” or flat out lie about events or facts, which we all know has occured in past wars. I also admire the courage of these embedded reporters, who are at just as much risk as most of the troops.
2) Although contrary or “anti-war” coverage may not be equal on the major networks, it is still there nonetheless. I have seen numerous reports of the protests, of Iraqi officials being interviewed, and of wounded Iraqi children. As a father of two boys, those images have not left me. In short, I have seen enough of this type of coverage to make me actually wonder what the outcome of this war will really be.
3) There may be a “pro-war” slant to the major networks, but there is an even stronger “pro-troop” slant, on MSNBC in particular, and this is something that I highly support! As I have said all along, whether or not we are for or against the war, we should ALL be in support of our young troops.
Thanks again Tim for your thought-provoking response. I will return to this discussion later, as I am off to make dinner for my family - italian sausage spaghetti with a nice Australian cabernet (I am eschewing the French selections for the time being - obvious reasons).......
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:05 AM Hey Richard from Toronto, please take Moore off our hands. He would fit in great up there with you Canadian pussies.
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:10 AM Canadians: shut the fuck up and stay out of this. You are a country full of pussies and no one cares about what you think. Do us a favor and take Moore off our hands if you like him so much. By the way, I think I’d rather be French than Canadian. At least France has an identity.
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:17 AM i waited all oscars for one of these statements, i shivered and smiled all over. it was great.
go on mike!p.s. don¥t complain if my english isn¥t perfect, but its better than most americans german ;)
Posted by thomas on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:17 AM Tom,
I’ll be one late tonight to continue this discussion, if you’re around…
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:18 AM i am very proud of Michael Moore and i’m also glad to know that the boos only came from 5 stagehands. he speaks the truth that most of his non-supporters don’t want to hear. good job michael. keep up the good work!
Posted by Nikki on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:23 AM Thank you thank you thank you,
I feel relieved to hear that it was only a few stagehands booing, I couldn’t understand why actors and the other Hollywood people would boo their own.
The war that is being waged is illegal.
I heard one quote recently that went a little something like this: “there has been a coup d’etat in the USA and nobody cares”
thanks for raising your voice Michael Moore. Please be a candidate for the next elections!!!
Posted by Jay-Ra on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:28 AM MM for President!
Isn’t it ironic that the people so passionately for war, going in and killing 10’s of thousands of people, are the same people that claim to be “Pro-life.” It seems to me the anti-war folks are much more deserving of that title.
Posted by Linda on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:30 AM Oh, and by the way, TOM, why don’t you shut the fuck up and go play with yourself or something. You are a clear example of the ignorant, hate-filled, KKK, white supremesist morons in this country that have yet to evolve to human status.
Posted by Linda on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:35 AM I am listening to the news while reading all the comments re M M’s work. Seven women and children have been killed by U.S. troops. This morning’s papers have pictures of injured children, heartbreaking little faces full of terror. Do you see these pictutes in America??
I am Irish living in England, were we have some freedom to speak out against the system. However we feel powerless and helpless too. Recently I have been watching C.N.N. and am appalled by the manipulation and lies….........Wake up America and listen to people like Michael Moore…...at least keep an open mind it may guarantee your freedom someday…......George Orwell’s story is alive and well and living in the Pentagon!! We are all wonderfull human beings who should be working together to improve life for us all on this beautiful planet. God bless us all { not just America} !!!
Posted by Mary Mackay on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:35 AM well done mike moore, i dont know what its like in ameriaca but its good to hear some critisism over the war. the coverage is too one sided, making anything i hear sound like propaganda. dont let this “war on terror” kill our right of free speech.
Posted by flynn on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:38 AM Wow. I have just read the entire list of messages.
I watched the Oscars in my rocking chair. I was sitting there a bit disgusted with the world. Less so after Michael Moore showed up on the screen. He has renewed my faith in the power of individual beliefs making a difference.
Never in my life have I watched an awards show that made me stand up and cheer! I was floored that he won. I let out an loud “YES!!!!” that had my husband running into the room to see what happened. I clapped my hands and laughed out loud with glee all at the same time. That the people in “charge” would recognize him with the honour of an Oscar was something I didn’t think I would ever see. Though I know it is well deserved.
Then all of Hollywood stood up and gave him a standing ovation. That one moment restored my tenuous faith in society. The people in that audience have enough money to make a difference. They have the status to make us listen.
Posted by Kaivanni on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:46 AM Continued from Canada
THEN, he got up on stage with his fellow nominees and said what he said. I was and still am grateful to him for showing the world outside of North America that not all Americans are on the Bush bandwagon.Money and power are not just held by Bush and his associates. Maybe that is why there is a blacklist of celebrities. A celebrity who dares to speak the truth can be a very scary thing to people who SO want us to sit mesmerized by MTV and CNN.
I can honestly say that I am proud to belong to the human race that includes Michael Moore and people like him.
I admit I have been a bit cynical and jaded with the state of the world affairs. I have long known that what we see in the news is not always accurate, that big business does indeed rule the world, that those in charge are not always the best candidate for the job, and that too many people are truly ignorant of anything outside of North America.
This debate, this eye-opening debate is important. It’s maybe more important than we think it is right now. We can’t know today all of the negative implications that are going to come out of this invasion.
I believe that we need to speak our minds. Just like all of you have in this long list of responses above mine. The swearing, the spelling mistakes, the anger and self-righteousness is ok. We are all human beings trying to make sense of our world. (Some of us are willing to let go of long held beliefs if new evidence shows those beliefs to be wrong.)
I want to applaud everyone that is going to read, listen and learn to understand the world we are living in today.
Michael Moore spoke of ficticious times. So lets try to deal in facts from now on as much as we can.
Thank-you to all of you who have open minds that are asking questions and looking to credible unbiased sources to answer them.
I myself am going to read up on some history, and I’m going to buy Michael Moore’s book. (My library has told me there is an estimated 45 day wait to sign out one of their copies. )
I think we may all be able to agree that we want the world to be a safe place for our children. Suppressing the truth, keeping silent when we know the truth, and holding rigidly to outdated, undocumented beliefs is not going to make the world a safer place.
Posted by Kaivanni on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:48 AM I would like to respond to so many of todays’ mails – but I’ll settle for one for the time being – “AH Moore on 3.31.03 | 5:16 pm from MI…”
Mr/Mrs “AHMoore” quotes a “Debbie Schlussel”. Didn’t know who “Debbie Schlussel” was, but following a quick 30 minutes scouring the web – seems she’s as outspoken as Michael – good for her!
Not having yet seen “Bowling for Columbine” (gasp!), I can’t really comment on much of what Debbie says, but DO know enough from other browsing (including the admittedly biased [well – it IS the official site] http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/about/faq.php to know that at least ONE thing she says is wrong:
“…….. Documentary might not be the best word for this manipulative piece of cinematic celluloid. “Fictitious,” Moore’s current term of choice, would be more accurate. That includes the title. Moore says he chose “Bowling for Columbine” because Columbine High mass murderers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold attended a bowling class the morning of the massacre …. why bother with the facts when you’re the fictitious Michael Moore? …….”
Read the answer to the 1st FAQ from the link for why she’s wrong on this. It would be tempting to assume that given her historical and political persuasions, she perhaps would be an OBVIOUS foil to our good Mr. Moore but I don’t want to bring up her possible biases (damn – did it again! ;-) ). Regardless – in all seriousness - I’d feel more obliged to listen to her and believe her if she had not made such a silly mistake with her opening attack on the film.
So – nice try – no cigar.
Regards to you all – Spike.
PS: To Kirsten from Scotland (A’hm haf-Scoch masel’ ya wee lassee – dinnea ye ken?) – loved your postings – BTW - the guy in “Buffy” pinched my name and my hairstyle (from a long time back I’ll admit!) – never was able to sue Billy Idol for copyright infringement either ;-)
PPS: Tom! - they’ve removed Michael’s picture from the page - think we should both open another beer!
Posted by Spike on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:52 AM Linda from NY,
Do you mean Tom from Denver or Tom from Virginia? The other guy sounds like a moron.
Tom from Denver
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:57 AM I see the warmongers on TV.
The more I look at them, the more they look like monkeys to me.
The more they speak, the more I think they’re trying to hipnotize me with their monkey eyes.
Posted by Pete on Apr 1, 2003 at 3:05 AM Spike, my man up north!
That’s great news. Let’s crack those cold ones together! Sometimes there IS justice in the world…....
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 3:08 AM I personally think your an ignorant, unsensical horror of a human being and should be asshamed of yourself for your unpatriotic and uneducated rhetoric.
Posted by Will on Apr 1, 2003 at 3:26 AM Against my better judgement, I feel I should reply to the following rant. Despite it’s anger, I think it probably is an honest picture of what many think of us Canadians:
“Canadians: shut the fuck up and stay out of this. You are a country full of pussies and no one cares about what you think. Do us a favor and take Moore off our hands if you like him so much. By the way, I think I’d rather be French than Canadian. At least France has an identity.”
Posted by: Tom on 3.31.03Tom: have you been to either France or Canada? I, myself have lived for the better part of a year in Colorado, and count it as one of the most enjoyable times of my life.
Our countries have a peculiar relationship…One that is often compared to “a mouse in bed with an elephant.”
I can understand how many people from the US are shocked and appalled that Canada has not offered its full support for the war on Iraq (Side note: Canada DOES have vessels in the Persian Gulf AND troops on the ground…)I think the perception is that Canada neglects Defence spending because our southern neighbour has such overwhelming military might that we can “lean” on them. In the past, Canada has just about ALWAYS supported the United States in times of war. Often, the United States has entered engagements that Canada has been involved in earlier… (we were fighting Germany in WWII as of September 10, 1939… The US only joined, after the bombing of Pearl Harbour, on December 7, 1941)
The ONE notable exception to Canadian support for American War is…Vietnam. That was the ONE other time in the past century when your “friends and allies” to the North said: “We will not participate in this.”
History has passed judgement on the war in Vietnam. Your government officials would do well to not ignore the “squeak” of the mouse they are in bed with.
(for an interesting article, please see: http://www.rabble.ca/columnists_full.shtml?x=20314)
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 3:26 AM Kaivanni from Alberta,
I LOVE your posting - it is one of the best yet.
Spike, actually AH Moore is correct on a number of points. The inconsistencies of “Bowling for Columbine” are further outlined in the April 2003 issue of “America’s First Freedom” magazine.
I sure hope Linda from NY wasn’t talking about me!!!!
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 3:34 AM Tom (from Denver!)
Hi Bro’ - since you’ve used a phrase that many have been using over the last few days - “support of our troops” – so that I know if I AM or not – what do YOU understand as the actual meaning of this. Hope you know me well enough by now to know I’m not being facetious – it just seems to be a bit of an ‘open-ended’ phrase.
Also – your comments on reporting by the ‘embedded’ troops are timely – what about Peter Arnett? Fired by NBC for perhaps being a bit tactless – then hired by the Daily Mirror (a UK tabloid in direct competition to the God-awful “Sun”). I know he wasn’t actually ‘embedded’ (geez – what a word!) – so maybe he felt he could get away with comments that others couldn’t. I say this as I remember reading somewhere that all journalists had to sign a multi-page document issued by the US forces before they were allowed access – and this document had been criticized for promoting bias. If I can find the bloody link I’ll send it your way.
(Spike sits with cold Mexican beer in hand – smiling at the minor victory of public opinion over photos on websites … [can’t help wondering if Michael asked for this to be removed himself ;-) ])
Posted by Spike on Apr 1, 2003 at 3:35 AM Tim from Winnipeg,
I think I’m being confused for Tom the moron from Virginia - I did not write the postings from either 7:10 p.m. or 7:17 p.m.
And although I don’t think this question was being directed at me, but rather the ignorant Tom in Virginia, I have been to France! Normandy and Paris. I proposed marriage to my wife on Omaha Beach on June 6, 1999. And I LOVED Paris! I encountered none of the hostility from Parisiens that I was told to expect. Maybe because I was trying to speak my best French from 2 years in junior high, 2 years in high school, and 3 semesters in college.
Vive la libertie!!
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 3:45 AM Spike,
“Support our troops” does sound like an open-ended phrase. What I mean by “support our troops” is to let them know that we understand that they are trying their best under the worst circumstances that they will encounter in their lives.
Politics and international relations mean NOTHING at the forward edge of the battle area. Do you know what does mean alot? Public opinion. For better or worse, the troops perceive anti-war sentiment as a sleight against them. It can cause morale problems, and morale problems can cause deaths on the battlefield.
I need only to point to the historical facts of the Vietnam War to suggest that too much protesting can actually cost lives.
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 3:56 AM Glad I read this account and Mike’s thoughts about what he said and how it was received. I heard his speech on the radio the next day on NPR I think, and it did sound like he was being roundly booed and I couldn’t figure why since this should have been his crowd except for the really big boys who probably don’t like his type. Cheerers booing booers? Never thought of that. Even if the whole place booed Mike, I’m glad he did what he did because why should he check his brain at the door when so many others are willing to do it and may even like it. Sometimes I’m accused of being in poor taste but it’s hard for me to know what that means since those who charge it are usually in favor of the worst kind of things with nice names tagged on them. Like collateral damage which isn’t being used too much lately. Have they thought of a better one than that? Liberation blues? Concommitant ubiquity?
Posted by thomas goggin on Apr 1, 2003 at 3:56 AM Tom (FD)
…….. “I need only to point to the historical facts of the Vietnam War to suggest that too much protesting can actually cost lives.” …….
And of course – too little can do so as well.
Spike.
Posted by Spike on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:04 AM Mr. Moore…represents many people who haven’t had any political advocacy for a long, long, time…Bravo.
George Dumbya Bush Jr. is a pathetic plutocrat who didn’t have a job until he was forty years old and that is because his Daddy bought him an oil company. And many investors he left high and dry in his oil corporation : Arbusto.
Ask Dumbya how he acquired the land to put the Texas Rangers on? He used imminent domain with his political and corporate connections to have farmer’s land condemned when they wouldn’t sell their land to him!What about Dumbya going AWOL from the Nat’l guard?...the corporate right wing wall street media won’t ask Dumya that one…Why isn’t Kenny ‘Boy’ Lay getting indicted? I’m sure Dumbya is obstructing justice pulling strings there as well. As far as this war goes…nearly all of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia…none from Iraq. Let me clue you in, what you are seeing on your TV is a hostile, military and economic takeover of another country against its will…The UN should put Dumbya, Rummy and Cheney Rice and Powell on trial for War crimes. Let me ask you this: “Will making Iraqi women and children widows and orphans through this illegal and immoral military campaign make more terrorists or less terrorists? Any country that coddles our corporate interests will never be attacked no matter how many terrorists they harbor. And what if the Sudanese wanted to preemptively strike us before we bombed their aspirin factory? We were declared a ‘War criminal” after that…I love my country…But fear my corporate ran and bought out government. And by the way Bush didn’t win the electoral count either…nearly 23,000 people were wrongly denied access to voting because of a ‘computer glitch’...I’m sure Jeb was behind that…Let’s impeach war criminal and corporate crook Dumbya as soon as possible!
Posted by George on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:11 AM Pete,
Don’t be a moron. Say something constructive, dude…....
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:13 AM If anyone thinks Debbie Schlussel polictical commentator and attorney is right please raise your hand. What she is doing is very sleazy. She is attempting to distract from the real issues by using fiction and poor grammer. The bank gives you a gun…case closed. Dick Clarks restaurant participates in a program that does not allow the mother to care for her kids. Michael Moore is not anti-gun he is a member of the NRA and expert marksman. The network news corporations capitilized on the Columbine Tragedy, not Michael Moore, he is simply analyzing it. Quoting mediocre film critics, police reports or anyone who writes for Forbes is hilarious, however, and she should be commended for such thorough ‘fact checking’ and ‘research’. Debbie is currently depressed, because her kids hate her and she hasn’t had sex with a human being…ever.
Posted by demo suzuki on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:19 AM Spike,
The only concern I have surrounding the “support our troops” issue is that I hope to God we don’t witness a repeat of the horrible and reprehensible way our young troops during Vietnam were treated by the “peace” movement of that era: being spit on in airports, being denied service at restaurants, having their loved ones vandalized…..
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:20 AM I appreciate any media stories that show that many Americans oppose the war in Iraq. My government is also part of the “coalition of the willing”!! Many Australians share Michael Moore’s concerns about both the war and the Bush administration
Posted by kaye on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:21 AM Tom from Denver, CO
What do you think of the fact that last week US Congress passed a George Bush budget bill in which benefits for Veterans has been slashed by $26 billion?
Isn’t that a tragedy, while those young boys and girls are laying down their lives?
Who is against the troops now? How will they be motivated to fight knowing that if they come back alive, some of their benefits will be gone?
Posted by Merlin on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:30 AM And on the subject of reporting (‘embedded’ vs. non) ……. from a reporter well respected in the UK (John Simpson from the Beeb) …. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2903807.stm
He’s a nice guy who’s taken his own share of risks over the years – glad he’s another who likes to speak out – someone who’s EARNED respect.
Posted by Spike on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:33 AM Iím in the midst of reading a great book entitled ìThe War on Freedom ñ How and Why America was Attacked on September 11, 2001î, by Nafeez Ahmed who is a political scientist and executive director of the Institute of for Policy Research & Development in Brighton, England.
It contains some very interesting information, especially the involvement of the U.S. in funding the Taliban in Afghanistan, in spite of their rampant violations of human rights. I believe someone mentioned earlier that most of the support received from the U.S. was humanitarian in nature. That may be the case for overt aid, but it appears that covertly, the U.S. was supporting the Taliban through Saudi Arabia and the Pakistani Secret Service (ISI). The U.S. was paying the salary of every single Taliban government official as recently as 1999. U.S. diplomats regularly traveled to Taliban headquarters. The former Pakistani Interior Minister commented that the ìCIA introduced terrorism in the region and is only shedding crocodile tears to absolve itself of its responsibility.î
The Wall Street Journal noted that Afghanistan was a prime transshipment route for the export of Central Asiaís vast oil, gas and other natural resources. ìLike them or not,î the Journal continues, ìThe Taliban are the players most capable of achieving peace in Afghanistan at this moment in history.î These are the folks, who like Hussein are responsible for the severe repression of women, massacres of civilians and genocide.
Unocal (Union Oil of California) commissioned the University of Nebraska to teach Afghan men the technical skills needed for pipeline construction in Kandahar. Eventually, the corporation suspended work on the pipeline in 1998 and the U.S. grew progressively more hostile towards the Taliban. It appears that Bin Laden encouraged non-compliance to U.S. interests and that the Bush Administration had been planning a war on Afghanistan for October, 2001, long before September 11th. The last meeting between the Taliban and the U.S. took place in August, 2001. The U.S. representatives told the Taliban, ìeither you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs.î
My point so far is to indicate that the U.S. is perfectly willing to turn a blind eye towards human rights abuses when countries donít play along with corporate interests.
Posted by linda z on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:38 AM Ah, Merlin - one of my most defiant opponents in this spirited debate - thanks for chipping in!
I hadn’t heard of that news, and it is VERY disturbing. $26 billion is a huge cut.
One thought, though. Considering the fact that 1,500 American veterans die every day: perhaps the members in Congress, many of whom are veterans themselves, foresee that this money may not actually be necessary in 1 to 3 years because our gallant veterans from World War Two and Korea are dying of old age by such large numbers. It’s just a thought, I could be wrong…....
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:43 AM Thank you Linda and George.
WHAT ABOUT DEPLETED URANIUM ROUNDS?
These rounds, what Professor Doug Rokke, a former US Army physicist, calls “a form of nuclear weapon that contaminates everything and everyone”.
Today, each round fired by US tanks contains 4,500 grams of solid uranium, whose particles, breathed or ingested, can cause cancer.
This, and the use by both the Allies of new kinds of cluster bombs, is being covered up.In the end US service people and Iraqi people, who will have to live with low levels of radio active material, will/may suffer from “Gulf War Syndrome”
American and Britain have displayed the best and brightest in hypocracy. Congrats!
Posted by Steve on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:49 AM Hey Tom…
Well, that argument appears reasonable. Just that it could be bad timing and difficult to explain to fighting troops and their family.
On C-Span the other day, several veterans called in complaining bitterly.
Posted by Merlin on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:05 AM Steve from SD,
I appreciate your conviction, but NOT every round fired from a US tank is a “sabot” or “silver bullet” uranium-tipped round. Each tank also has a complement of high explosive, incendiary, and smoke rounds. Furthermore, there has been no link, from what I have read/seen/heard, between our uranium tipped tank rounds and Gulf War Syndrome. Remember those several dozen oil wells that were set on fire during the first Gulf War?
Secondly, if your so fired up about the hypocracy of the United States and the United Kingdom, what are you going to do about it? Are you just going to complain, or do you have an informed solution?
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:09 AM George Bush has just been assissinated…ding dong the witch is dead…the wicked witch of the west is dead… yeeeeeehaaaaaaaaw
Posted by demo suzuki on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:11 AM Tom,
Yes the sabot round is used to slice throuh enemy armor and with its nuclear alloy it can be classified as a weapon of mass destruction.
I have many informed solutions to the problem, but the main one is Regime change in Washington - come election day.
Another way to improve our country is to remove governement and special interests from our media channels to have them report the news without coersion and intimidation.
Bring the media back as a check to absolute power that corrputs absolutely.
Posted by Steve on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:15 AM Steve…
Some people who are extreme right wing believe 9-11 was anticipated by govt, but not in the magnitude that occured.
But they let it happen so there would be a reason to go after Iraq.
Then, the magnitude of the devastation was so great, they just couldn’t go back on Iraq in order to clear some of their guilt.
That’s the conspiracy theory…
Posted by Merlin on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:17 AM Sanity survives in Michael Moore. Save the world, Michael Moore for President. Read his books, see his films - it’s all there!
Posted by Pete Soucy on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:22 AM Steve,
Do you think 9/11 was a setup??? Why don’t you ask Lisa Beamer or Deena Burnett or the Rick Rescorla’s widow (to find out who Rick Rescorla is, please visit the website of the 1/7 Cav).
And Merlin, PLEASE tell me that you don’t buy into that nonsense…
You guys think that our government let 9/11 happen so they could further their own agenda?? That is so ridiculous that it doesn’t even favor a response.
Let’s keep this debate within the confines of reality, shall we?
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:26 AM Tom, Sorry but the US “in bed with” journalists aren’t giving it to us as it really is.
How much of their footage graphically shows the dead and wounded soldiers of either side??? Have you seen the mangled children who are victims of missles and bullets?
No, we are not seeing the “real” war on the mainstream “news”.
And FYI, the FIRST war to show it like it is was the Viet Nam “living room” war. The Vietnamese man being executed point-blank in the temple as cameras were rolling.. the little girl running down the road, flames streaming from her napalm-doused body.. THOSE were images of the reality of war which came into our homes unfiltered each night.
THIS war coverage is a travesty. As Jack said in “A Few Good Men”.. “The Truth? You can’t handle the truth!!!”
That’s what the gov’t and its media lapdogs think of good ol’ John and Joan Q. Public.
Get your news from a varitey of sources. Watch Fox, ABC, NBC, CNN et al if you have to, but be sure to check out the BBC news, commondreams.org, alternet.org and (of course) In These Times, and international publications to get a different perspective.
No media outlet is giving us the whole truth. It’s our job as concerned citizens to sift through a vast array of news sources and triangulate our way to “the truth” as best we can.
Posted by PeacefulPatriot on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:29 AM Tim,
Just a thought on the 9-11 conspiracy. Why not question it. It seems plausible, but I don’t think Bush and his admin would stoop to that level…It’s always important to question. I’ll check out the site you recommended…anybody else have web sites on this topic?
Posted by Steve on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:31 AM Again, I need to reiterate that I did NOT write the postings from 7:10 p.m. or 7:17 p.m. on 3/31 - that was Tom from Virginia in all of his eloquence…....
I’m Tom in DENVER!!!!
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:33 AM Tom,
I do not for once believe that any responsible government would have notice of event such as 9-11 and allow it to happen.
But if you for a minute would see things from the point of view of those opposing the war. So much opposition to war is completely ignored. The administration is so resolute and unprepared to listen to opposing voices of compromise.
So that gives rise to all kinds of theories, crazy, absurd and all…
Posted by Merlin on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:36 AM The War on Freedom also contains these tidbits of information:
An investment from the bin Laden family started George Bush Jr. in business, and the war in Afghanistan made the Bush and the bin Laden family richer through the Carlyle Group. FBI investigations into the bin Laden familyís ties to terrorism were shut down.
Days after the hijackers took off from Boston, a special charter jet whisked 11 members of bin Laden family to Saudi Arabia. No questions asked.Members of Al-Qaeda were trained in terrorism by the CIA in the USA, and the hijackers themselves were trained by the U.S. military.
The U.S. financially supported the Pakistani secret services, which funded presumed hijacker Mohammed Atta. The Director-General of Pakistani military intelligence, Lt-General Mahmud Ahmad, had funneled $100,000 to Atta, shortly before September 11th. The Bush administration, on confirming this fact through the FBI, blocked any further inquiry into the role of Pakistani military intelligence in supporting Al-Qaeda by requesting that Ahmad, quietly pursue early retirement. He was at a meeting with CIA and State Department officials when the planes slammed into the World Trade Center and Pentagon. No move has been made to question Ahmad or those U.S. government officials, including Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, who met with him in September.
Three FBI officers testified that they had known the names of the hijackers and the date of the planned attack weeks before it happened, but were muzzled by superiors under threat of prosecution; their counsel was the U.S. Congressí chief prosecutor in the Clinton impeachment case.
Standard operating procedure is for Air Force fighters to intercept hijacked planes immediately, but this was not done until it was all over on September 11, an hour and a half after the World Trade Center was hit.
This book is extremely well documented and packed with all sorts of information that I hope will cost George Jr. the next election if not an outright impeachment.
Posted by linda z on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:37 AM Linda, that book sounds fascinating. Will put on on my “to-read” list right after the new edition of Palast’s “The Best Democracy Money Can Buy” http://gregpalast.com/
Posted by PeacefulPatriot on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:46 AM I think it is important that Americans should accept his his opinion. after all many wars have been fought to protect the freedom of Speech adn the freedom to have an opinion. I do not agree with the war in Iraq, but I do support the men who are fighting over there. i respect Michael Moore and feel that he had every right to express himself. We are told we are a nation that allows people to be free to decide for themselves where they stand, but it seems we are so concerned about forcing support for this war that our civil liberties are being stripped from us.
Posted by Jennifer Judge on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:47 AM Peaceful Patriot from Maine,
Thanks for the dialogue.
I need no lesson on the Vietnam War - I have read over 75 books on the subject and talk to every Vietnam Veteran I can get my hands on. I have exchanged emails in the past with both Col. David Hackworth and Gen. Harold Moore (i.e. Mel Gibson) and have met “Hack” in person. I am fully aware of the circumstances surround both of the instances from that war that you gave. I have worn an MIA bracelet from Vietnam (one of my dad’s college buddies) every day since 1994. How many of those do you see around?
As I mentioned from one of my earlier postings from only a couple hours ago:
“Although contrary or “anti-war” coverage may not be equal on the major networks, it is still there nonetheless. I have seen numerous reports of the protests, of Iraqi officials being interviewed, and of wounded Iraqi children. As a father of two boys, those images have not left me. In short, I have seen enough of this type of coverage to make me actually wonder what the outcome of this war will really be.”
In addition, I have spent a fair amount of my t.v. time watching C-SPAN’s coverage of both the CBC and the BBC.
I think you may have jumped the gun a little bit in your judgement of me…....
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:48 AM Linda Z from NY…
Unfortunately not many people are as well informed as you are, so my greatest fear today is that George W. may actually get re-elected in 2004.
I fear it in my heart because the Dems are non-existent or disorganized at best.
I fear it because the Republican political machine is very robust and very ruthless as at now.
I fear it because despite all the scandals of last year involving this administration, the people consolidated their power in November 2003 elections.
I feel hopeless and in despair, because people have very short memory and Nov 2004 is a very far off in political time.
Posted by Merlin on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:49 AM No one would say those things on live TV unless they were absolutely sure of it. No one would risk their life and privacy-unless they felt a deep conviction for the subject. It’s not that what he said isn’t true, it’s just that as a nation, We are terrified to think that it’s true. www.votescam.com
Posted by S on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:50 AM So, have we reached some understanding here yet? I think we have. Personally, I understand that nobody wants to listen to anyone else’s concerns. This leads me to understand that, even given this egalitarian forum upon which we may spout our opinions, (informed or not; empathic or not), we cannot help but play right into the hands of the OZochrchacy…this divisive blather is an affirmation of their belief that we Americans are easily had by merely letting us rip each other apart, sitting back, and then proceeding to commit whatever atrocity or rip-off they want. Sure, it’s salubrious to get some nagging pet peeves off of our scared minds momentarily by ranting on and on about matters in which we can no longer participate. However, when it’s time to get up in the morning and you’re trembling with fear about whether or not you’re gonna be downsized; or whether the price of gas has gone up again…in short, when you’re by your lonesome…admit it, you wish that newspaper you’re poring through for some alternative views is pretty disappointing, isn’t it? You don’t write, you don’t paint, you don’t act, you don’t compose music, you don’t sculpt, you just go to your nine to five and suck up some more second and third hand conformist crap. You’re uneasy because you’ve read some mulit-faceted views here you’ll never have occasion to read anywhere else…and you were able to put in your own two cents to boot. But, “You know something is happening, but you don’t know what it is…do you Mr. Jones?”-Bob Dylan
Posted by Dominick on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:56 AM I too respect Michael Moore’s opinions, and I feel that he has every right to express them…..ON HIS OWN TIME! To hate Bush is fine, but to use an awards show to pimp your political beliefs makes you (for lack of a better word) an asshole. The acceptance speech is a time to acknowledge those who ahve helped you and make the appropriate “Thank you"s. It is not an opportunity to use an awards show as a political soap-box. Michael Moore can think whatever he wants, but he needs to express those beliefs on his own time.
Posted by Voice of Reason on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:56 AM WHy do all the comments from pro-war, anti-Michael Moore readers involve either cursing, gross spelling errors, or death threats? What is wrong with these people?! Stop for a second, and think!! Actually THINK about the things you read here!
Posted by Eric on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:57 AM Bush, Blair and our own Moronic Howard have seem to gotten our countries in a bind. Every day the death toll of innocent iraqis; as well as our troops, continues to rise. Their reply? Send more troops. Another thing I don’t understandis the censorship that is taking place. Certain Bands, Songs, Albums and Films have been censored because they contain “sensitive material- whether it be a plane crash sequence, reference to war or comment on terrorism. Yet, reels of news footage is played repeatedly, day by day of bombs, bodies and promise of more bombs and bodies. The world’s western leaders leading this war not only disgust, they scare me with their control over us and what we see. Maybe Orwell wasn’t that far off the mark…
Posted by lise on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:58 AM Michael Moore is NOT on a 15 mins of fame thing. He has been known for years, for many of his works. The people who shun him should look at his work, then take a look around to see how things really are in the real world. I’m very proud that someone is speaking out and showing the general public what has been hidden from them for too long
Posted by Dawn on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:02 AM Merlin,
Believe it or not, I actually understand the frustration in your posting addressed to Linda in NY. I felt the same way, as you do now, from 1993 to 2001. That chronology is the explanation.
I understand your disdain for Bush, I really do, because I feel the same way about his predecessor: that amoral, cowardly, servile, unethical, unrefined whore. I honestly think that President Clinton (and yes, I do have enough respect for our system to call him “president”) will go down in history as the abysmal world leader that he was.
Finally some common ground!!!!
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:08 AM DenverTom,
If I’ve jumped the gun, I apologize. It’s just that I’ve been hearing SO much lately about the “liberal” slant of the media.. or how “balanced” the American media is on so many message boards, I have a bit of chip on my shoulder on that topic now. ;^)
I have two boys too.. ages 3 and 5, who did catch a bit of CNN’s war coverage the other night. My three saw some smoke coming from a bombed building in Baghdad and remarked “That’s not good, is it mommy?”. My five year old immediately asked me, “Mom, who are the bad guys there?”
I had NO answer for him. What do you SAY to a five year old boy who wants all the world to be black and white, good and bad? I don’t hate the troops at war right now. My heart breaks for them being shot at, risking heat stroke, stepping on a landmine, being poisoned by depleted uranium…. coming home with battered bodies and shattered minds.
The soldier-kids who saw their compatriots blown to bits by a suicide bomber not so long ago, who then opened fire on an Iraqi van today which did not stop at the checkpoint and proceeded to slaughter women and children trying to flee the country….if they survive this war, how will they live with what they have seen? What they have done? Will knowing they’ve “liberated” the Iraqis be enough to counter that? I don’t know.
And what about the British soldiers who took fire from an A10 along with Iraqi civilians? (again more children killed) They’ll have to deal with their anger at the pilot.. their survivor’s guilt knowing that they made it out of their tank, yet their friend did not.
It drives me crazy the meassage boards I go to where the posters get all their news from FOX or extreme right-wing press.. acting as though only the American lives count for anything. Worrying only for the lives of our soldiers.. disregarding anyone else inside or outside of the coalition. And telling me that my protests.. my desire to bring this war to an end and get our kids out of there is somehow unpatriotic, seditious, left-wing drivel?!
So yes, I do think I came in here with a chip on my shoulder. And if I offended you, I do apologize. It was not my intent. I’m just ranting over the state of the American media (and people) in general.
Posted by PeacefulPatriot on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:09 AM I love reading all of the biased reports of this non-event from a limo liberal. From the conservative right to the blathering idiot himself. This is one of the best examples of read and research, and think for yourself. From my impressions (and keep in mind I’m just an average civilian not a swell celebrity) Michael Moore doesn’t represent the views of the majority of America. He’s just another pompous celebrity that’s full of himself and his own self-importance. By the way, your article did a great job of omitting any balanced reporting.
Posted by Brian Glass on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:13 AM Speaking of MEDIA.. the Peter Arnett situation. (Though NBC fired him, the MIRROR snapped him up so he’ll still be reporting what he is seeing to someone.)
Do you consider his remarks to the iraqi TV to be out of line? Unprofessional?
For myself, I think a journalist giving a report should try to be objective. But.. when being interviewed, then I am not so sure. If you are talking to him as a man rahter than a journalists, should he not be allowed to have his own thoughts?
Posted by PeacefulPatriot on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:16 AM Having read many of the “comments” here, I just feel sad that so many Amercans are blind and deaf to reality, even when it is explained to them in very simple words like the ones written and spoken by Michael Moore!
There is the veteran who is pissed off by having fought “for this assholes right of free speech” which “makes me puke” and there is another redneck “DB” who simply wants to shoot him!!!
Could be a member of the Bush-family who seem to want to establish an American tradition of “if you don’t know what to say… simply shoot”!?And as to the question, if George W. Bush is the legitimate “President” of the USA: he is NOT! And now the whole world knows it! And that would be sad enough, if this was just an american problem, if he would just fool the US and leave the rest of the world alone and in peace. Which he does not. And so we are in the unlucky position that this is no longer a problem of the Americans only, since he lacks arguments and had no better idea than to shoot, this is now a problem for the whole world.
Please Mr. Bush, find yourself another baseball-team that you can ruin and leave the rest of the world alone!
A big “Thank you” for Michael Moore, his book(s) and the fact, that at least SOME in America still have their brains switched on!
If he existed, God should continue to bless Michael Moore, but as God doesn’t exist, I just wish him well… and don’t stop speaking out the truth!
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:18 AM Greeting from down under
Just a brief comment
Good to see positive forces in America bringing the issues to light. The story of Iraq has been a very long one and did not start with them Invading Kuwait. Alot of pro-american/war propoganda comes across as half truths and hence a very Anti-American (Governemnt) opinion here in New Zealand. We do have several politicians in the right wing supporting The Coalition stance but only because they are our “traditional allies” and to protect our “future economic” growth. What about doing the right thing ??
Check out the checkerd history of American in Iraq and Iran. The American governemt has made this situation over the last 23 or so years. Its a shame that the land of the free is still bent on opressing countries it deems fit.
Posted by Simon B on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:23 AM Peace Patriot,
Thank you for your heartfelt response. You have raised alot of difficult questions that, even in my belief system, are hard to answer. I’d like to try to address a few or your comments:
You say you that you didn’t have a good answer for your child about who the bad guys are? I find it very disturbing that you may not see a difference between the way that our young troops are fighting this war (accidents notwithstanding) and how the Iraqi regime is fighting this war. Our guys haven’t shot any prisoners and buried them in shallow graves. Point hopefully made.
More importantly, I too wish this war would end. I wish it had never happened at all. This is a VERY common misconception that people who have been in support of military action are “war-mongers” or are “pro-war.” Nothing could be further from the truth. As I have mentioned on this site about 6 times now: the mere absence of armed conflict does not necessarily mean that there is peace in the world. Sometimes, justice and TRUE peace, where EVERYONE has the right not to be murdered, gassed, or raped en masse, can only be achieved through military action. It’s not clean, it’s not pretty, it’s just the way it is. What is better? For no Iraqi lives to be lost in a conflict but they remain for the next several decades under a homicidal regime that would kill them at the slightest provocation? OR! Some Iraqis civilians tragically become casualties in a war that will ensure that generation upon generation of future Iraqi citizens will not have to live under the yoke of rape, tyranny, and murder? Which would you prefer? Those are the only two choices.
There are only two kinds of peace: peace with justice or peace with acquiescence and isolationism. Only one of those carries TRUE peace for all people.
That’s just my humble opinon…..
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:36 AM Michael Moore, thank you and my most deepest respects for you. Speaking like that in fron of the entire nation on Oscars nigth chalenged the very thing America stand for, freedom and braveness. Only one thing’s missing, THE TRUTH!!!!! I’ve been here and there around the world, and one thing’s for sure you blinded people no one in this big world want to deal with Amercians, the world simply don’t like us a bit, as a matter of fact, they want us out of the picture. I don’t now about you people, but that’s something that concerns me very much as I look ahead on these violent times. From where I’m standing, THE NAZI REGIME and the U.S. are no different to me, we’re as much terrorists as SADDAM and his buddies. Think people, think about what have happened to regimes, dictatorships and imperialisms??
Posted by Hilario Torres on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:38 AM freedom fries, throwing kids out of school for wearing shirts that say bushy is a terrorist (which he is), arresting nobel prize winners at protests, censorship beyond belief, bitching about Michael Moore, NBC fires peter arnett for speaking the truth and billion dollar bombs fall on a third world while american schools go down the tubes from lack of funds.
And that is just a tast of democracy?! ......Makes places like pre-war Iraq and N Korea look pretty darn good!
Posted by pete farrell on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:44 AM Tom,
But.. there would be no guerilla warfare if we weren’t there. Hence my hesitation to name off “bad” guys. (The Brits thought we colonists were “bad guys” when we hid behind trees and picked off their lobsterbacks as they tried to subdue us ruly upstarts. But odds are not many of those guys really wanted to be shooting at us. No more did _most_ soldiers in our most devestating war.. the Civil War, want to tear down their “brothers”. )
I guarantee you that if some country landed on American soil today, you and I would be fighting with every possible resource to protect our families… not because we are defending the honor of GWB. And I do not think we would be “bad guys” for doing so.
The Feydayeen (sp.) may be fighting for Hussein, but I think there are so many more who are not. Are just trying to survive what , from their point of view, is a brutal and un-called-for onslaught.
I did not want this war to happen in the first place, but since it has I am sorry that Mr. Rumsfeld’s “easy” war did not materialize. I truly am. The situation has turned out to be far more complicated than most people would have guessed.
Posted by PeacefulPatriot on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:46 AM i think that this war will contribute to the eventual fall and demise of the US Empire. Only then will Bush realise what he has done, although, even then I won’t hold my breath for that moment.
Posted by lise on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:49 AM I hope they don’t find any weapons of mass destruction. If they don’t the worst (?) thing that will happen is an adminstration change in the US.
If Saddam does have weapons of mass destruction I believe that he will use them to take as many innocent lives with him as he can & that scares the hell out of me.
Support my troops? You better believe I do & I pray to my God everynight that they get this madman & get him soon.
Posted by Red on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:51 AM Michael Moore should be president. The man’s a freaking genious. He should be the one to lead America to peace. Bush a Christian? I seriously doubt it.
Posted by Heather on Apr 1, 2003 at 7:19 AM Michael Moore rules… he spoke for people like me who will never be heard. If you don’t like Michael Moore because of what he said, you are free to feel that way, but you’re still a moron.
Posted by Ronson on Apr 1, 2003 at 8:34 AM It boggles my mind how Bush has the nerve to call this war “operation Iraqi freedom”. CNN are the biggest bullshit news station if i’ve seen. This war is full of American propiganda and also a way for bush to live up to his father. Bowling For Columbine should be mandatory in every grade 9 class across America and maybe Americans will start to come to there senses.
Posted by C Styles on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:03 AM As I read through the vast comments, I found it very interesting that all the people that do not support Micheal Moore did not really give a valid argument as to why? It is called logic. Micheal put fourth and argument, and it is our job as Americans to find out exactly what he meant, unless of course you allready knew. This is where the handy intellectual tool called Logic comes into play. It is also called thinking out side the box(def-an expression used when one researches both sides of an argument and draws a now educated logical conclusion). In turn logic helps use to reason effectively, at least that is my understanding, but maybe I to am confused. A little advice to get you started, stop getting your news from a SPOON and try picking up a book. They are often found at libraries. REALLY good source of information, allthough can be one sided. That is where logic comes into the picture. So maybe people should stop putting Micheal down and start looking into the statements that come out of his mouth. They will discover a startling truth.
I can’t believe that people call him anti-american for seeking out the TRUTH, in my opinion he is more American than most. He acctually has enough courage to stand up and let the truth be heard, but maybe the problem is that his voice is falling on some deaf ears. So, point being is people should stop focusing on insignificant crap (ie- who was booing and which president recieved better grades) and start focusing on how vicious the people that are supposed to be looking out for the American people are. I guess Ignorance is bliss to some! And to the the person from El Lay if you had bothered to look into Micheals beliefs you would have discovered that he is not a supporter of Clinton and Gore, in fact he did not even vote for Gore.
Posted by Devin on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:28 AM Tom from Denver:
Sorry I couldn’t continue tonight. I had a long distance call from Australia. For the record, I haven’t confused you with the other “Toms” out there… My prior posting (uncharacteristically “saucy”), was to someone else…
You’ve always been entirely respectful, and I appreciate that.
Off to bed…
-Tim
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:31 AM God Bless Michael Moore
America is rotten to the core , your greed knows no bounds , we will all pay the price for your stupidity.
Waken up ...... USA was once upon a time a great place , now it is just corrupt.
Posted by Maurice Tobin on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:47 AM To Voice of Reason :
Maybe he felt that it was ok since the whole US media covers one side of the story.
So much debate over a 55sec long speech at the Oscars when the networks are filled 24/7 with lies from the US goverment? Still dont get it….
Today Rumsfelt said that 66 nations, a total of 1 billion people are for the war. Why didn’t he say that more than 5 billion are against?
Ask your fellow normal americans how many people live on this earth? See how many that knows.
Once again - it is easy to fool the already fooled!
Posted by Bateman on Apr 1, 2003 at 10:17 AM Dear Mr. Moore,
Thanks very much for providing me with a very affecting companion that was “Stupid White Men” during my flight to New York this weekend.
I have to say you’re a class A shit-stirrer, somewhat imbalanced in your perspectives, and little too disrespectful of those in authority (elected or otherwise). What are we to do with you?
Well, I suggest the next time you land at Heathrow Airport, you are instantly apprehended, bundled into the back of an unmarked car, driven at great speed to central London, and Knighted by the Queen. Better still, if the redknecks over there don’t want you for the Whitehouse we’ll stick you in number 10…..
Hail Sir Michael!
Posted by Rod on Apr 1, 2003 at 10:20 AM By the way, before I forget:
To “French” is an old english verb for cutting up something into long, thin pieces. French fries are therefore potatoes cut in long, thin pieces and fried.
And why does people spend so much time changing the name to freedom fries? What is next…..CANDy maybe. Its close to CANADA which, based on this discussion, is a terrible neighbour.
Another funny word often used by the Gov. controlled networks (yes you know CNN; FOX etc etc) are “friendly fire”. Is it ok to kill someone usng friendly fire? Does it feel less than unfriendly fire.
And….hasn’t it been alot of “accidents”. Mechanical errors, helicopters that collide over sea (clear sky it was that day) and so on. Maybe there really is an awful truth out there.
Posted by Bateman on Apr 1, 2003 at 10:28 AM to Maurice Tobin,
What you said made sense greed is the right word….5% of world population are using 50% of world resources, and spend more than 60% on weaponry of the whole world armement budget…gone are the days when USA was the land of the free… with sadness, I say it, it has become the land of the brain washed..
VIVE LA LIBERTE, EGUALITE ET FRATERNITE..
Posted by hawkeye on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:09 AM It is fine to see another opinions different from the CNN views. I’d like very much the film and it is really good to have a film like Bowling for Columbine. I would use in my university with my students.
Posted by Manuela on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:14 AM To Bateman from Sweden.
Rumsfeld might be right about the number of the coalition countries.. here some examples of the countries.. Bahrain( 1/4 the size of paris, qatar, just about the size of paris. Egypt.. hungry for the aid they get.. ah by the way their president’s nickname is payphone. he speaks when you insert money in him.. some of Eastern europeens countries, also need money.. but one billion people , I doubt this number.. he should have counted the number of the heads of states of those what so called coalition countries and not the population.
Posted by hawkeye on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:22 AM To Bateman from Sweden.
Rumsfeld might be right about the number of the coalition countries.. here some examples of the countries.. Bahrain( 1/4 the size of paris, qatar, just about the size of paris. Egypt.. hungry for the aid they get.. ah by the way their president’s nickname is payphone. he speaks when you insert money in him.. some of Eastern europeens countries, also need money.. but one billion people , I doubt this number.. he should have counted the number of the heads of states of those what so called coalition countries and not the population.
Posted by hawkeye on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:22 AM Hey US american fellows. Open your eyes! Don’t get brain washed by the TV station controlled by the Bush amdinistration. M. Moore is right and everyone how believes something else should take a look in the mirror and ask yourself. How, has gotten the most benefit out of this 9/11 production? How? Ask yourself this question and you will all come up with the same couple of guys.
Posted by Rouven on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:25 AM Mike Moore has guts, integrity and honesty. It’s a pity that world leaders do not have these qualities. I wish we had a Mike Moore in our country as our leader is following George W. into a war that should never have happened. One thing I cannot stand is all the propaganda coming out of so called newspapers and media in general. Good on you Mike!!!
Posted by Greg Bell on Apr 1, 2003 at 12:07 PM Michael Moore is one of Millions of people who are against this unnecessary war in iraq!!! Most of the Americans who are for this war don’t even know where Iraq is. And for me it’s the stupidest thing to do if you want to boycott all the french products: what about the statue of liberty??? do you want to cut it down and send it back to france??? oh man…..and at the war how many britains have the americans already killed??? more british soldiers are killed by americans then by iraqis….that’s a pity…
for all the americans who are against this war…keep on demonstrating….and don’t re-elect bush again…give a democratic politican a chance….peace on earth, hans-jakob
Posted by Hans-Jakob on Apr 1, 2003 at 12:10 PM i don’t know what’s the problem with you people. if you don’t support Moore then don’t listen. everyone has the right to free speach (even if that is an award speech). the stagehands who booed perahaps should of listened (they may have learned something). even if they don’t agree he’s entitled to his 55 seconds to speak without interruption. P.S. he’s a high school drop out who’s educated more american people about the underhandedness of the U.S. government (and other social ills), and has made an impact on more lives than any high school graduate on this page.
Posted by Joe on Apr 1, 2003 at 12:34 PM Michael Moore, you truly are a wonderful man. If the injustices in America aren’t keeping you busy, perhaps you could give us a hand here. Australia is America Mark II.
Take care
Posted by Janet Christie on Apr 1, 2003 at 1:25 PM I have yet to meet someone who believes that this phony war is for anything but Bush’s ego and his friends. Thank you Michael Moore for speaking for those of us virtually without a voice in this current atmosphere
Posted by Myrna on Apr 1, 2003 at 1:53 PM Well Done Michael Moore!
I have a lot of respect for someone willing to stand up for their beliefs, especially in front all the fascists who don’t think you have a right to express your opinion in public.Keep up the good work
Posted by Laura Christie on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:02 PM Moore is a rare breed - he is prepared to speak out on his beliefs and buger anyone that gets in his way! I would love to see the end of Bush, not just for the War, but also as a Loyal Brit, I cant bear to see England being turned into the same corporate s**thole that Bush has turned your once wonderful and democratic country into! Mr Blair has his tongue so far up Bush’s arse he can taste the crap that Bush talks all day long!!
Posted by Stephen on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:07 PM I am sooo glad that people like Michael Moore are firstly on this planet and secondly willing to lay their cards face up on the table no matter what the stupid public opinion may be. Thank God ( yes the same one in the Pledge of Allegience) for Michael Moore.
Posted by Karen Hunter on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:15 PM Bush once said during his run for president: “If we are a arrogant nation, the world will hate us. If we are a humble nation, they will welcome us”
This is it! The reason why 8 out of 10 people WORLDWIDE are against this war. All americans on this forum who supports the war and hate MM and want to kill all Canadians and listen to Fox and bellieving every word and agree that the Iraqi people need to be set free and that think that 0800pm US time is a good time for Bush to speak to the Iraqi people and that think that US never can do wrong and think that the UN is a power that can be over run.
Posted by Bateman on Apr 1, 2003 at 2:43 PM About 12 years or so ago, I went to see a little independent documentary called “Roger and Me”. To be totally honest, I had no idea what this film was. From the poster art, I was expecting a goofy little flick starring a goofy-looking little man. Little did I know…
From those early beginnings, through “TV Nation”, “The Big One”, “Pets Or Meat (The Return To Flynt)”, “The Awful Truth”, and now, the brilliant “Bowling For Columbine”, Michael Moore has been the most “American” American I have ever seen.
I do not wholeheartedly agree with Michael’s every opinion (in fact, I support this war), but I would take issue with anyone that tells him he cannot voice that opinion. As he said at the backstage news conference, “Not in MY America”.
When I was growing up, I recall my parents telling me that, in other countries (mostly Russia at that time, due to cold-war paranoia) you could be arrested for speaking out in public against the government. I thought that was absurd. Absurd! How could a government control what you say? The absurdity was present because we CAN say anything we feel in this country without fear of prosecution.
I just re-read that last paragraph, and realized how frightening this is becoming. From arresting Lenny Bruce for saying “cocksucker” on stage, to groups wanting to put people out of work for voicing their political opinions (I am speaking of the Boycott Hollywood people), it appears to me that the First Amendment is under siege, and I, for one, am glad that there is a Michael Moore willing to take up arms against a sea of impending censorship. (Sorry for paraphrasing Shakespeare)
-=Mike=-
Posted by Mike on Apr 1, 2003 at 3:42 PM It must be hard for Americans to understand why half the world hates them and even many people in countries like Australia have little respect for the nation collectively while not all individually. You have such a manipulative jingoistic media, led unfortunately by an Australian media baron, and such a manipulative government PR machine that it is impossible for the people to be informed of the negative impact their government has militarily and economically around the world. The overwhelming impression of American leaders is that they are selfserving, selfrightious hypocrites who are so egocentric they have no concept of how any other cultures think or operate. Unfortunately, Australia not only follows you blindly into futile, immoral guerilla wars but we follow just a few years behind you in many other things as well.
Keep up the good work Michael, you are an inspiration.
Posted by Helen on Apr 1, 2003 at 3:58 PM America should be very proud of Michael Moore - he is truly an inspiration. As an anti-American Australian, I do have hope for your country when there are people of Michael Moore’s ilk. He definitely gets my vote!
Posted by Robyn Townsend on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:09 PM hu americans, relax and think! <br><img src=“http://www.plan-d.org/img/masshysteria.gif” border=“0” alt=“masshysteria”>
Posted by ceo on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:14 PM This forum just isn’t any fun anymore.
No facts, just a bunch of comments baced on emotion.
Thank you Tom ( from Denver), Tim ( Winnipeg ), Red, Paul ( Canada ) & Esther for such lovely debates & I hope to meet up with one of you soon.
Posted by hehehe on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:52 PM I watched yesterday Moore’s movie and I was amzed, everybody in the world and especially in the USA should see this movie and realize how wrong is the direction that USA took. I just wonder how people like Moore can stand living in such a country surrounded by such idiots (I must point out that my knowledge of USA is not only from Moore, I lived in Miami for several months), it must be very frustrating, but their mission to awake people conscience is too important to be stopped. Keep up the good job Michael, millions in the world support you and hope that not only Bush but every american asshole will soon disappear
Posted by fabio on Apr 1, 2003 at 4:53 PM for those who think saddam is a blody dictator, I’d recommend them to read about Pinochet, the Chile dictator put on by USA, shall you bomb yourself, Americans? I definitely think so, and please let’s start from Washington
Posted by fabio on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:04 PM terrorism cannot be fought by killing somebody, whose relatives will claim revenge sooner or later, you must cooperate with undeveloped countries, not just put a mcdonald here one there and wait for profits, dig pits, build hospitals etc… and do not claim nothing in return, your return will be that you’ll be loved instead of hated, that’s how you defeat terrorists, with love, cooperation and care, every bomb dropped is a new enemy
Posted by fabio on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:08 PM For OH YEA:
MM wants to wake up his country, and if you want to wake up someone up who is in a deeeeeeeeep sleep, like most of the americans, you can’t just whisper, you have to shout as loud as you can!!! And if his voice isn’t loud enough, I don’t blame him for using a megaphone!
Posted by Arend Remmers on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:20 PM hardy maybe right in some points but he’s an author too, and he is jealous, believe me! OH YEA
Posted by Arend Remmers on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:22 PM Has America gone mad? Are we now losing the right to free speech—as evidenced by those who are misinformed and support the war with Iraq—no matter how many are killed? Do they honestly believe that America is always right come hell or “I want my SUV” mentality? WAKE UP! My patriotism should not be impugned just because I disagree with this government.
Posted by N. Richard on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:24 PM Yes, 26 Billion in Veteran’s aid was cut in the current budget. I don’t know why - or where this comes from. Yes, It could be concluded that the money will not be needed due to lack of veterans each day to benefit from it. However also as part of this budget, prescription drug costs for veterans will double (which can be a lot for somebody taking over 5 pills a day) and they will have to pay a $250 fee to “enroll” in the veteran’s benefits plan. Sad. Support your troops, put you money where your mouth is.
Posted by JR on Apr 1, 2003 at 5:25 PM I applauded Moore’s speech at the Oscars. I also loved his film “Bowling for Columbine”. He brings out the truths in his work that the American media doesn’t want you to hear. Perhaps some of you people should take a minute to listen to what he has to say, instead of being sheep and being blindly led by a media that brainwashes you to think that this is a “just” war. America started this corruption in the first place. As for those who think Bush is a “freedom fighter” and a humanitarian for Iraqui liberation, get a life! When it comes to Global Terrorism, Bush is leading the way.
Posted by Aaron on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:30 PM It pleases me to find out that there are some US Americans who can think and see clearly, through propaganda and brain washing, to the real reasons that lead your country to this unfair, illegal war.
Please read the following lines quoted from the Nuremberg trials (after the end of 2nd World War), said by Herman Goering, Adolf Hitlerís closest collaborator.“Of course the people don’t want war. But after all, it’s the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.”—Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
Does it ring any bells?
Yugoslavia, Afganistan, Iraq,Ö , whoís next? Do not let it go any further! Stop it now. Do not fear criticism from those who say that people in the U.S. should not look separated in this conflict.
Get your information from independent sources, make your own conclusions, do not let a bunch of people manipulate the whole nation!
Posted by Katerina on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:39 PM The red necks in this country hate Moore to begin with. He exposed them over and over. He exposed the violent gun culture in the USA. He spoke and he had all the right to do so. Thank God there are people who are not ignorant in this country. Waving a flag and threatening people like Moore with death is a real patriotic thing to do? I am looking forward to see all the ignorant P.O.S. who posted anti-Moore comments here on the J. Springer show admiring their slut Mama!
Posted by T H on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:40 PM Sorry, my english-language is not good!
translate with alta-vista:
Ich m?chte mitteilen, wir in Old-germany haben den Krieg erlebt. USA hat
noch nie!
Die Nazi-Zeit wurde durch USA, Russland, England und Frankreich gestoppt: gut!
Dieser Krieg aber ist ungerecht! Punkt!
Nicht wegen Saddam, wegen den Menschen. den Soldaten aus den USA und Gross-Britannien und den vielen, vielen Zivilisten aus dem Irak!
Die Bush-Regierung trommelte ¸ber Zeitungen und Fernsehen den Krieg herbei.
Eine geschickte Publicity, oder anders Propaganda. Wir wissen, wie das geht!
HISTERIE wird verbreitet!
G?be es noch die Sowjetunion, h?tte die Bush-Regierung nie den Irak-Krieg begonnen.
Wenn das Europa weiterhin schl?ft, werden diese Leute der Bush-Regierung weiter leben k?nnen. Europa muss umdenken, nicht gegen die USA,
nein, mit den USA muss.Europa besser werden. Und westliche Zivilisation anpacken und zeigen, dass es auch anders geht.
Und mit eigenen Milit?r! Das ist das Ergebnis! Gegen den Terror!Sorry, my english LANGUAGE is emergency good! translate with Alta Vista: I would like to communicate, we in old Germany the war experienced. The USA does not have ever! The Nazi period was stopped by the USA, Russia, England and France: well! This war however is unfair! Point! Not because of Saddam, because of the people the soldiers from the USA and Great Britain and the many, many civilians from the Iraq! The Bush government trommelte over newspapers and television the war here. A skillful publicity, or differently propaganda. We know, how goes! HISTERIE is spread! There would be still the Soviet Union, the Bush government would have never begun the Iraq war. If Europe sleeps further, these people of the Bush government will be able to live further. Europe must reorient one’s opinion, become better not against the USA, no, with the USA having Europe. And western civilization it anpacken and show that it goes also differently. And with own military! That is the result! Against the terror!
Posted by Heimo on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:53 PM Heimo,
You don’t need to apologize for your English, your comments are well received! I’m always interested in German viewpoints. You have had a very interesting history in the last 100 years.
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 6:58 PM Tom, it thanks is only unfortunate that I - unfortunately - do not know foreign languages. I hope about the thoughts to be understood. All property, Tom, I think, we all am Americans! That is my honest opinion! But not this Bush government!!!!!
Posted by Heimo on Apr 1, 2003 at 7:02 PM Voltaire famously said [I’m paraphrasing]: “I may not agree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it.”
And he was French.
Posted by a human on Apr 1, 2003 at 7:09 PM Human from London,
I couldn’t agree more!!
As I have previously mentioned on this site a number of times, I am very strongly in favor of one’s right to express their opinion. I champion it. I welcome it!
However, I found the timing and the method in which Michael Moore delivered his comments to be inappropriate and disrespectful.
I am one of the very few people on this site who disagree with what MM said. But I disagree even more with how he said it.
I would have taken him much more seriously if he had not been so obnoxious in his delivery. Along those same lines, I thought that Adrian Brody’s speech was outstanding. HE drew a standing ovation.
MM is welcome to say whatever he wants, I just think that a little reverence would have been in order.
That’s just my humble opinion!
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 7:17 PM I want to thanks Michael Moore for his pro Canadian tourist film, Bowling for Columbine. I live in Canada and we have our own problems, but they’re different than the American.
The rigth film won,only it should have been best picture.
God Bless the Social Advocate
David Picard
Posted by David Picard on Apr 1, 2003 at 7:24 PM Michael Moore is an absolute credit to the American people. He’s one tough cookie to go up against the
power of corporate government and their war for oil.
God bless Michael Moore and God save the United States.Rory Dwyer
Posted by Rory Dwyer on Apr 1, 2003 at 7:28 PM Lance Corporal Stephen Funk must be given a medal of honor for turning in his papers as a conscientious objector. All servicemen and women should follow his lead and return home now. We need the billions of dollars that is funding Operation Iraqi Liberation(OIL) to go back into the economy. Our schools are laying off teachers so that we can kill children. Anyone who supports our troops, supports killing children over educating and nurturing them.
Posted by demo suzuki on Apr 1, 2003 at 7:33 PM To “PeacefulPatriot”:
I wanted to let you know what I thought of your posts.
I always try to think through my responses carefully before committing “name to email”, so I’ve considered the mixed levels of IQ that seem apparent on this board. I had to think about the Dom’s of this world (dude – you probably have some great points to make – but you’re losing us with your presentation & verbiage), along with the 13-year olds with their crayons (“you are a dumb F$%K”) etc.
I think I’ve arrived at something that all of us should understand …..
“PP” - dude – you ROCK !!!!!!!!
No disrespect to Tom (FD) (careful dude – you’ll be turning into Uriah Heep!) and the others who can string a mean sentence together.
Just trying to add a little smile to the seriousness …… maybe ‘speak’ to you all later - Spike.
Posted by Spike on Apr 1, 2003 at 8:24 PM Spike, you crack me up!
No disrespect taken - thanks for the compliment.
I agree that we have pretty much covered each end of the intellectual spectrum on this site, from the silver-tongued to the downright vomitous. I look forward to continuing this debate. I also like being in the minority of opinion on this site - it is much more invigorating than “preaching to the choir.” Bring it on!!!
Cocktails later…...
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 8:38 PM I’m sympathetic to Tom (from Denver)‘s position.
Michael Moore speaks what he believes to be the truth loudly, and with little tact. How many people cheered or booed is irrelevant to whether his speech was appropriate or not.
I am wholeheartedly against this war, but I imagine being a soldier’s parent, whose son or daughter is over in Iraq through no real choice of their own, listening to that speech on Oscar night…
TRUE: Moore is one of the only people who had an opportunity to voice what many of us feel, live, in front of the mainstream media… but I fear that his delivery may have further polarized the debate.
Any “pro war” viewer would have immediately see him as a radical “crazy person”...a thought that further alienates both “sides” in the debate from constructive dialogues… (much the same effect, incidently, as “frothing” posts on this site…from BOTH sides of the issue)
I DO defend Moore’s right to say what he did…and I’m THANKFUL that his tirade has prompted so many otherwise passive folks to “engage” this issue… Still, in my perfect imaginary world, he would have been a little more sensitive.
Even those who believe the Western world needs a MAJOR look in the mirror, followed by an equally major overhaul, don’t want this overhaul to happen through a civil war.(I include Canada in “Western world”... we have no right to feel smug or self-righteous… we are fully complicit in an empire out of control.)
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 8:49 PM true. refreshingly so. So little truth floating around at the moment. Everything is manipulated and all forms of press espescailly on the war have no sense of reality to them or any accuracy. One may only wonder is the lack of truth accompanied by a lack of time. Lets hope we get to reach a stste of honesty and reality before its too late…..............................
Posted by murie on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:04 PM Hooray for Michael Moore. He’s got my truth and I support him wholeheartedly.
People, we’ve got to vote, get actively involved in our governing. Call and write, let your opinion be known.
The presidential election was purchased.
I do not believe in this or any war. A Pandora’s Box has been opened. Let’s help each other. Organize, educate, liberate, celebrate our humanity not hatred and war.
Posted by Coleen on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:07 PM I agree with michael moore 200%.
I will continue read and support anything he puts out. Please keep up the hard work, this country needs to hear the truths this man speaks of.
Posted by ernesto on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:10 PM This is a nation of sheep. Pres. Bush is your shepard.
Michael Moore and truth will set you
free!
Posted by ernesto on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:17 PM There are so many dangers in our world. We must learn to think independently, seperating ourselfs from the information we find and the views that are forced upon us. If Saddam thought like Bush would he have not attacked America before they attacked him? All I can see is contradictions. We are being lied to, poisoned through words, food and our own inibility to find our place in nature. Weather you agree with Mr. Moore or not, let this be a chance to find new information and not base your beliefs on what you have been told, or pure emotion.
Posted by Casey on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:28 PM Iím a Mormon High Priest and conservative Republican and applaud Michael Mooreís hutzph to speak out.
Has anyone seen the movie Matrix? Just a brief review of that movie and how it applies to the present situation is warranted as Michael Moore said: ìWe like nonfiction and we live in fictitious timesî. Bear with me. The movie is true to life in that the illusionary and imaginary world the people live in have come to think it is real and the real world they actually live in is an embryonic like incubator where they truly are asleep, in a coma or are unconscious of their real plight. The electrical power their brains produce is exploited by the machines that service them like mechanical nannies that keep them alive until occasionally some of the people become self aware and wake up then they are disconnected and disposed of.
Weíre living in that kind of world where the majority of the populations are constantly feed a barrage of false information by the power brokers, movers and shakers and opinion makers reiterated over the years. Weíve got these synthesized perceptions form years of indoctrination from our main stream media that make up our comfort zones and have lulled the majority into a ìcarnal securityîó(ìdonít worry be happyî, ìall is well in Zion, yea Zion prospers all is wellî). Some people are waking up to actual reality and find they are pitted against those who are still living a pipe dream existence. They stand out as individuals and say some radical things from what the lemmings are use to. Michael Mooreís comments are those radical things that can jolt us into the real world from the complacent world weíve become acclimated to. Thanks Michael for arousing me from my sleep. Remain bold and wake up others. For Theodore Roosevelt once said: Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official save exactly to the degree in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country.”—President Theodore Roosevelt, 1908
Posted by Ric on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:37 PM One other comment that has awakened me from my slumber comes form George W. Bush himself quoted from his own autobiography, A Charge to Keep, p 47. And I quote: “My senior year [at Yale University] I joined Skull and Bones, a secret society, so secret I can’t say anything more.” Isnít this a huge red flag flapping in our faces and nobody seems to notice. Check out the movie Skulls from your video store to learn more. And check out:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2002-09-25-opcom_x.htm
http://www.karenlyster.com/bones.html
http://www.guerrillanews.com/counter_intelligence/doc808.html
Posted by Ric on Apr 1, 2003 at 9:38 PM Homework?
Can I suggest that in the interest of elevating this discussion, we find appropriate information to submit (IE not: “Bob’s Website”) that has some relevance?
During the course of my poking around, I’ve discovered that a CIA report released in October of 2002, stated quite clearly that Iraq poses no immediate threat to the US UNLESS they are attacked (in which case, the likelihood of terrorist attacks would increase.)
For those in support of the war: How does this square with the senior administration’s thesis that this war is about “making the world safe?”
Published on Wednesday, October 9, 2002 by the New York Times:
C.I.A. Warns That a U.S. Attack May Ignite Terror
by Alison Mitchell and Carl Hulsehttp://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1009-06.htm
(do we feel safer, yet?)
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 10:19 PM Even if I don’t agree with everything that Michael Moore says, one has to respect him for standing firm in what he believes in and protesting what he believes to be wrong. Too many people whine without action, and for a person to do as Michael Moor deserves a certain level of respect and at times even admiration. Keep up the work!
Posted by Mike on Apr 1, 2003 at 10:31 PM Tim from Winnipeg,
I will not direct you to “Joe’s website” to bolster my argument
I will agree with you that as far as a DIRECT threat to the U.S., Iraq probably poses little no threat - at least in the short term.
Rather, my support for military action has come from my fervent belief that if Saddam Hussein’s regime is replaced with a Muslim government where all of the ethnic segments of Iraq’s population have equal representation in that government, then there IS a chance for the people of Iraq to enjoy a better life without worrying about being tortured with car batteries or gassed by the thousands. I believe that this scenario is very much a possible outcome to this conflict.
Just because a homicidal regime poses no direct threat to the U.S. does not validate it’s existence. Nazi Germany’s rearmament in the 1920’s and 1930’s was allowed to happen as a direct result of America’s isolationism. Are we to turn our backs on a psychotic world leader just because he cannot attack us directly?
Even Michael Moore has stated that Saddam is an evil tryant who needs to go.
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 10:35 PM Congratulations you are a very brave and open minded man.I find it very difficult for an American to critisize his own country.I wish you were not so alone in your country.There too few of you left there but all of us who love peace and justice all over the world are with you.Congratulations again from Athens.STOP THE WAR
Posted by Dimitrios Giannoukos on Apr 1, 2003 at 10:42 PM Michael Moore is opinionated and outspoken -Good for him!
! In a world that is fast losing its ability to be outraged it is clear that the American public need people like Michael Moore .
Love him or loathe him Moore has done something that in my opinion should be applauded-he has made the American public speak out and express an opinion -
and that for me is the true strength of the man and his workLong may he continue.
Posted by Colin Robinson on Apr 1, 2003 at 10:57 PM (still) standing ovations from germany for michael and his friends!
Posted by a patriot from germany on Apr 1, 2003 at 10:58 PM I’m glad he said it. At least, he said it here. He didn’t run to another country to say it, and make a half hearted apology about it. He’s wrong, like most people who oppose the war, they want it to be about Al Bore and oil. But, I would dare any anti-war protestor to go live in Iraq. If they said one thing about Saddam like they do against Bush, their entire family would be murdered and raped right before their eyes. But, I guess they can get that in LA too…
Posted by Edward Schwartz on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:15 PM Great move MM you are so right “An uninformed public in a democracy is a sure-fire way to end up with little or no democracy at all.”
Please keep telling them “Enough Fiction”...have a hand in saving the generations to come…u r in that position to make a change…keep it up.
May Allah bless you
Posted by Your Sister In Humanity on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:21 PM I’ d like to congratulate you for your bravery and courage! Only you Americans can stop this fascist criminal named Bush from bloodbathing the world. Why don’t you (not you Mike, the others) realise that you dont have a real democracy but a state of propaganda and lies. You are like your rockets: controlled by your headquarters.STOP THE WAR!
WELL DONE MIKE!
Posted by Kalliopi Giannoukou on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:22 PM Tom:
So then this war has nothing to do with “making the world a safer place.”... We can put that idea to rest. (Of course, we must then also question the credibility of US senior administration, since the thrust of their media campaign for war is predicated on the “making us safe from terror” argument)
The REAL reason we are at war, then, is because Saddam is an evil man who “has to go”... (?)
It is extremely magnanimous of us to “liberate” the Iraqi people from such a tyrannical regime. I imagine a chorus of praise for the “liberating west” goes up every time a missile falls in the heart of Baghdad…
I also imagine that as 500,000 Iraqi children have died in the past 12 years, due largely to UN sanctions, the oppressed people of Iraq cheered the pressure being put on their government to “liberate” them from a really nasty situation. (uncontroversial truth: see even CNN news to that effect at http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/06/04/embassy.bombings.02/)
No doubt Madeline Albright, then ambassador to the United Nations, spoke for all Iraqi mothers when, in response to the 500,000 dead Iraqi children statistic, she said:
“I think this is a very hard choice, but the price—we think the price is worth it.”Our compassion for the Iraqi people is downright touching. No wonder coalition forces are being so well received in the towns and cities of this oppressed nation. (oh…wait a minute…)
(excuse the occasionally ‘satirical’ tone of this response. My penchant for Jonathan Swift is showing, I fear!)
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:23 PM The Evil Dictator must go! He won a sham election, has his fingers on the buttons of weapons of mass distruction, willingly lets his fellow countrymen starve and languish in poverty while he and his cronies live the good life, he sends his country’s young to die on the battlefield while the world stands against him and he whittles away at the basic rights of his people. Yeah, Bush has GOT to go….
Posted by Hugh on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:32 PM Tim from W,
I hope you didn’t think that I was laboring under the impression that the Iraqi people were greeting us in jubliant throngs whilst throwing flowers.
As best I can tell, Iraq is just like every where else: some people are for this war and some people are against it. I have seen footage if Iraqis that look like they hate us so bad they can’t even contain themselves. I have also seen a great many stills and video footage of Iraqi people shaking our hands and of Iraqi children receiving the care they need. Are these across-the-board events? Probably not, but I do know that most of our guys are putting themselves at greater risk NOT to shoot at civilians or at Iraqi forces that hide behind civilians.
As far as Madeline Albright’s comments - they only prove that she was not qualified for the position she was appointed to by that amoral, unethical dilletante that preceeded President Bush.
War is ugly and war is hell and alot of innocent people are going to get hurt and killed. The images of hurt Iraqi kids absolutely breaks my heart.
But what is the alternative? We tried to make this work by going through the defunct and obsolete United Nations. Do we just walk away from our responsibility as human beings from the strife of others only to avoid military conflict?
In 1938, British PM Nevile Chamberlain returned to England from his summit with Adolf Hitler and proclaimed that “we have peace in our time!” Two years later, 60,000 London residents, civilians all, died from the indiscriminate German bombing.
Acquiescence carries a MUCH higher price than military action.
That’s just my opinion…..
Posted by Tom on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:48 PM Tom (from Denver)
On our intervening on behalf of the oppressed peoples of the world:
We are somewhat selective about the people we choose to “liberate” from tyranny, aren’t we? The world is riddled with oppressive dictators who torture and kill people…
“In recent years, the US has taken or backed actions in Colombia, Nicaragua, Panama, Sudan and Turkey, to name a few, that meet official US definitions of “terrorism” - that is, when Americans apply the term to enemies.”
Published on Monday, September 9, 2002 in the Guardian/UKIt hardly bears mentioning that the US supported and established Saddam (and Osama, for that matter), knowing full well the sort of men they were… Is it not true that the “magnanimous, liberating west” provided Saddam with the chemical weapons he used on the Kurds in 1988…the very weapons they now use as a pretense to invade?
...at the same time, we have largely ignored oppressed peoples in places like East Timor, El Salvador, and many countries in Sub-Saharan Africa.
What are our criteria (oil) for intervening (oil), with humanitarian intent (oil), in some parts of the world (oil) and not others?
Posted by Tim on Apr 1, 2003 at 11:58 PM -
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