At least in the eyes of many a party apparatchik, Israel’s second Lebanon war is a huge success. Not so much due to the military bombardment and invasion of Lebanon, but due to the campaign’s consolidating effect inside Israel. After four weeks of fighting, hundreds of civilian deaths, the ruthless destruction of Lebanon’s infrastructure, and the forced evacuation of an… return to article
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Reader Comments (62)Page 1 of 1 pagesGreetings to all at in these times,
What to make of this leaflet dropped over Lebanon?
“To the residents of Hay el-Sulloum, Bourj el-Barajneh and Chiah: For your own safety, you must evacuate those neighborhoods immediately, and evacuate every place where Hezbollah members or aides exist or carry out terrorist operations”
“You must know that the expansion of Hezbollah terrorist operations will lead to a painful and strong response, and its painful results will not be confined to Hassan’s gang and criminals”
“The State of Israel.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/749081.html
A clear threat of collective punishment?
Isn’t that somewhat frowned upon under the Geneva convention?
Israelis do clearly seem to be firmly behind this ‘war’ as the article states, what it doesn’t state is how Israels behaviour has vastly increased Lebanese support for ‘Hassan’s gang’ even amongst the Christian population despite the bombings, threats and other more silly attempts at undermining Hezbollahs support such as randomly telephoning the Lebanese population with a recorded message none too flattering about Nasrallah. With the rockets still landing and the Israeli’s still losing troops only a couple of miles from the border after a month you’ve got to wonder how much longer this near blanket Israeli support for their leaders barbaric idiocy will continue.
Posted by Azathoth on Aug 12, 2006 at 10:02 AM “Israelis do clearly seem to be firmly behind this war as the article states, what it doesnt state is how Israels behaviour has vastly increased Lebanese support for Hassans gang even amongst the Christian population despite the bombings, threats and other more silly attempts at undermining Hezbollahs support such as randomly telephoning the Lebanese population with a recorded message none too flattering about Nasrallah. With the rockets still landing and the Israelis still losing troops only a couple of miles from the border after a month youve got to wonder how much longer this near blanket Israeli support for their leaders barbaric idiocy will continue.”
I see you didn’t mention the thousands of rockets that Hizbollah has launched into Israel or the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers that set off this war. That is typical of Arab thinking, refusing to take any personal responsibility.
Posted by chopper on Aug 13, 2006 at 12:56 PM Wait a minute...now...quick over view chopper...europeans of the Jewish faith...many of them with Zionist ideas...forcefully immigrant (invade )into the region , declare a soveriegn Isreali state...intern the existing population into refugee camps for decades , claim fanatical chosen by God status....and have “ kidnapped upwards of 9000 none military Palestinian personnel...as many as 1000 of this number are children....
By the way soldiers cannot be kidnapped , they are prisoners of war....perfectly legal under the Geneva Convention...but civilan captives are in fact illegal under the Geneva laws governing combatants…
Now chopper if someone was screwin over you like this...Redhorse guesses you’d just bend over and smile...true…Further...” That is typical of Arab thinking.......” Responsibility...you my nero-minded fiend have a responsibility too learn tolerance and too not fall for racist propaganda…
Next chopper will call Redhorse or Azathoth the dreaded anti-semite word...foolishly forgetting that the Semites are the Afrikan/ Arab mix...not some european Jew transplant.........Point being...you cannot morally lay claim and or self defense when you are the invading...offending party or combatant....
It would appear that logic and responsibility have blown the choppers engine.........seen ? ?
.
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 13, 2006 at 4:26 PM Old wise man once said...” You piss in my drink...I fist in your face “......seen....?
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 13, 2006 at 4:34 PM Chopper: “I see you didnt mention the thousands of rockets that Hizbollah has launched into Israel or the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers that set off this war. That is typical of Arab thinking, refusing to take any personal responsibility.”
You mean the rockets which started being fired in earnest only AFTER Israel began its bombing campaign on civilian targets? And what of Israels responsibility when it comes to kidnapping civilians and even politicians, would those in Gaza, for example, if they had the ability be justified in laying waste to Israel?
And I’m Scottish by the way...though I do like Arabian coffee with Cardamom, much better than the swill you get at Starbucks.
Posted by Azathoth on Aug 13, 2006 at 10:54 PM Lets steal a country,kick out all of those that were here.Its ok “cause god promised it to us.... Its right in the middle of “Arab Country” what a shame,they don’t like us much… So we’ll have to fight them on all sides,forever.... It’s ok,America thinks god promised us this land too,they will send us lots and lots of bombs and money,so we can fight off those who think we don’t belong here(those that DO.).This is insane thinking.religion is myth,used to control the masses,much like politics.Don’t forget to give your 10% so you wont got to HELL! no matter the preacher drives a Cadilac,and you ride a moped....
Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on Aug 14, 2006 at 6:29 AM Kaw Valley Kid....Redhorse agrees....The strange thing about Christianity is that ....Gawd....God supposedly sent his only beloved son too die for the wrong doing of others....So if I’m a christian I can do as I please because Jesus is going to pay the price for my screw ups...all I got to do is claim belief in jesus as my savior and the Horse is good to go....
Now first off...Jesus is getting a raw deal from the ol’ man...is this how I show that I love my son....especially such a good kid....never gave God any trouble...but when you or I screw things up....Jesus pays...put too death....thanks dad....God strings up his innocent son for my foul living…
Now K V K that doesn’t sound like good responsiblity training to the Redhorse, it sounds like child abuse to me..maybe that’s why the priests where gettin away with screwing all those little kids...because the congregation believes that God can screw over you and it’s ok....that’s got to be the most illogical piece of mess anybody could thing of.....much less believe in....
Is this the kind of God...K V K or the Redhorse would want to associate with.......I don’t think so.....He doesn’t sound like a nice fella.....not to stable in the head...ya know…
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 14, 2006 at 4:55 PM Now the other thing is....when you die...Jesus is suppose to save you from eternal damnation....but ....have you ever seen this guy...a picture...a drawing....a sculpted bust or something...I mean , this guy.... Jesus was a big deal in his day...but nobody can produce anythang that gives us some idea of what the man looked like....the guy only lived 2000 years ago...sounds like a lot of time now , but historically it’s not that long ago...and certainly we have many other artifacts from that time....so why no Jesus ? ? No corpes....no tomb or burial place....the nile valley structures are from much early antiquity...we still have those artifact....
So how will the believing christian know who to look for....man , women...black, white, oriental.....what’s to stop one of them evil spirits the devil sends out...from runnin a game on folks...I mean...they just died...and now they got to find this Jesus fella...is he just going to appear or what....how you gonna know it’s him or her or who...ya know…
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 14, 2006 at 5:38 PM “Wait a minute...now...quick over view chopper...europeans of the Jewish faith...many of them with Zionist ideas...forcefully immigrant (invade )into the region , declare a soveriegn Isreali state...intern the existing population into refugee camps for decades , claim fanatical chosen by God status....and have kidnapped upwards of 9000 none military Palestinian personnel...as many as 1000 of this number are children....
By the way soldiers cannot be kidnapped , they are prisoners of war....perfectly legal under the Geneva Convention...but civilan captives are in fact illegal under the Geneva laws governing combatants
Now chopper if someone was screwin over you like this...Redhorse guesses youd just bend over and smile...trueFurther... That is typical of Arab thinking....... Responsibility...you my nero-minded fiend have a responsibility too learn tolerance and too not fall for racist propaganda
Next chopper will call Redhorse or Azathoth the dreaded anti-semite word...foolishly forgetting that the Semites are the Afrikan/ Arab mix...not some european Jew transplant.........Point being...you cannot morally lay claim and or self defense when you are the invading...offending party or combatant....
It would appear that logic and responsibility have blown the choppers engine.........seen ? ? “Your rantings are ahistorical, to say the least (you are greatly over-simplifying what happened) and the rockets started before Israel launched their invasion. Besides that, Hizbollah deliberately targets civilians, not for capture, but for death.
Posted by chopper on Aug 14, 2006 at 6:50 PM “kidnapped upwards of 9000 none military Palestinian personnel...”
You mean known terrorists. I guess in your world self-defense is okay unless it is Jews defending themselves.
Posted by chopper on Aug 14, 2006 at 6:54 PM “Dont forget to give your 10% so you wont got to HELL! no matter the preacher drives a Cadilac,and you ride a moped....”
Completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Posted by chopper on Aug 14, 2006 at 6:56 PM This war is a disaster for Jews and Israel has become a source of embarrassment. The Likudniks and NeoCons are in need of retribution.
God’s Chosen People
By Jostein Gaarder,
08/05/06 “Aftenposten “—There’s no turning back. It’s time to learn a new lesson: We no longer recognize the State of Israel. We could not recognize the apartheid regime of South Africa, nor did we recognize the Afghani Taliban regime. Then there were many who did not recognize Saddam Hussein’s Iraq or the Serbs’ ethnic cleansing. We need to get used to the idea: The State of Israel, in its current form, is history.
We don’t believe in the notion of God’s Chosen People. We laugh at this people’s capriciousness and weep at its misdeeds. To act as God’s Chosen People is not only stupid and arrogant, but a crime against humanity. We call it racism.
Limits to tolerance
There are limits to our patience, and there are limits to our tolerance. We do not believe in divine promises as a justification for occupation and apartheid. We have left the Middle Ages behind. We laugh uneasily at those who still believe that the god of flora, fauna and the galaxies has selected one people in particular as his favorite and given it silly, stone tablets, burning bushes and a license to kill.
We call baby killers “baby killers” and will never accept that people such as these have a divine or historic mandate excusing their outrages. We just say: Shame on all apartheid, shame on ethnic cleansing and shame on every terrorist strike against civilians whether carried out by Hamas, the Hezbollah or the State of Israel!
Read the complete article
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14532.htm
Posted by Spinoza750 on Aug 14, 2006 at 7:31 PM Following your VAIN of illogical thought chopper.. one would guess that all those Jews interned in Nazi prison camps during WW2...were also known terrorist and provocateurs....especially the children....
In the world of the Redhorse....if I’m chillin in my stable....munchin on some hay and carrots....and some ass-hole Jack of Asses invades my barn yard ,ridin on some fuck’in loud ass chopper....trespassing on my soveriegn land....AND THIS FOOL ON THE CHOPPER CLAIMS....SELF DEFENSE......"how long have you felt this way chopper ?”...cause in the real world...you wrong…
Isreal has no moral ground to stand on....scripturally or historically...to claim self defense....this Zionist state called Isreal is a european transplant., a colonialist state , successful propagandized as the nation of “Gods Chosen People “..a power- drunk guest in the region....and a extremely poor one for sure.....
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 14, 2006 at 7:44 PM chopper....only in the world of the Rothchild bankers...and the little Zionist piglets that troll for there interests...does your post make any sense....In the other 99.999 % ad infinitum of the world...your post is pure 365 degrees of...all around BULLSHIT.......
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 14, 2006 at 8:00 PM “kidnapped upwards of 9000 none military Palestinian personnel...
“You mean known terrorists. I guess in your world self-defense is okay unless it is Jews defending themselves. “
WOW! 9000 Terrorists!!! sounds like an army almost!
What causes terrorists? Oppression of course.And a good dose of propaganda. Didn’t England think of the revolutionarys as terrorists after the Boston Tea Party?Those terrorists went on to form this country.Terrorism is a last resort for a desprate people,who have been ignored,or taken advantage of by a “greater” power.Hezbolla held seats in the democratically elected Lebanese Govn.They should be recognized as a legit political party! They fight like an army,with army type weapons.The real terrorists are the ones holding the power in the world,who paint any resistence to their plans of world domination as terrorists.A nice label to direct the hate of the masses.
“Dont forget to give your 10% so you wont got to HELL! no matter the preacher drives a Cadilac,and you ride a moped....
“Completely irrelevant to the discussion. “
Perhaps,but I think it is just another example of the absurdity of religion,which really,isn’t that what this is all about?
Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on Aug 14, 2006 at 8:06 PM “What causes terrorists? Oppression of course.And a good dose of propaganda. Didnt England think of the revolutionarys as terrorists after the Boston Tea Party?Those terrorists went on to form this country.Terrorism is a last resort for a desprate people,who have been ignored,or taken advantage of by a greater power.Hezbolla held seats in the democratically elected Lebanese Govn.They should be recognized as a legit political party! They fight like an army,with army type weapons.The real terrorists are the ones holding the power in the world,who paint any resistence to their plans of world domination as terrorists.A nice label to direct the hate of the masses.”
Hizbollah terrorizes anyone in Lebanon who is not Shia. Their ideology grows out of a religious conviction that Muslims should dominate the world, by force if necessary. So anyone who does not agree with this view “oppresses” them.
“Perhaps,but I think it is just another example of the absurdity of religion,which really,isnt that what this is all about?”
No, it isn’t.
Posted by chopper on Aug 14, 2006 at 8:25 PM “Following your VAIN of illogical thought chopper.. one would guess that all those Jews interned in Nazi prison camps during WW2...were also known terrorist and provocateurs....especially the children....
In the world of the Redhorse....if Im chillin in my stable....munchin on some hay and carrots....and some ass-hole Jack of Asses invades my barn yard ,ridin on some fuckin loud ass chopper....trespassing on my soveriegn land....AND THIS FOOL ON THE CHOPPER CLAIMS....SELF DEFENSE......"how long have you felt this way chopper ?...cause in the real world...you wrong
Isreal has no moral ground to stand on....scripturally or historically...to claim self defense....this Zionist state called Isreal is a european transplant., a colonialist state , successful propagandized as the nation of Gods Chosen People ..a power- drunk guest in the region....and a extremely poor one for sure.....”
The Jews in Europe were completely peaceful, and had been for centuries. Such is not the case with the Islamic facists in the Middle East. Your analogy is absurd.
It has nothing to do with how I “feel”, nor does your liberal use of obscenties do anything to strengthen your argument. In fact such use says much more about you than it does about me.
Posted by chopper on Aug 14, 2006 at 8:31 PM Chopper, you crazy.~ In one sentence you say “ Their ideology grows out of a religious conviction that Muslims should dominate the world” then in the next : when I ask “isn’t this really about religion?” Your short reply is,"No It isn’t. So I’m confused,didn’t you just say it was? maybe it is you who is confused....hmmm
Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on Aug 14, 2006 at 8:43 PM chopper....What is obscene and profane is your justifications for genocide....times change ; but the script is still the same....
Look chopper if your going to be an imperialist...you can’t be so sensitive....
War profiteering is a dirty business............
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 14, 2006 at 8:50 PM Kaw Valley Kid....chopper believes in the Zionist model...therefore like all the ist of the world....no other viewpoints and or concerns matter....that’s why they have so many guns ; too enforce that principle....
Redhorse would hypothesis that religion is a tool in this equation...and not the principle....which would be the statigic location of land , resources and military personnel so as to aid the larger super-structure of geo-militaristic global economic plutocracies.....etc......
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 14, 2006 at 9:11 PM “Chopper, you crazy.~ In one sentence you say Their ideology grows out of a religious conviction that Muslims should dominate the world then in the next : when I ask isnt this really about religion? Your short reply is,"No It isnt. So Im confused,didnt you just say it was? maybe it is you who is confused....hmmm “
It might be about THEIR “religion”, but its not about religion. Sorry you are so easily confused. Hope that clears it up.
Posted by chopper on Aug 14, 2006 at 9:36 PM “chopper....What is obscene and profane is your justifications for genocide....times change ; but the script is still the same....
Look chopper if your going to be an imperialist...you cant be so sensitive....
War profiteering is a dirty business............”I’m not sensitive or offended, just mildly amused at your combination of arrogance, obscenities, and self-righteousness. Please keep up the good work!
Posted by chopper on Aug 14, 2006 at 9:38 PM Now the misinterpretations of mythical cosmology as historical fact ; which is in fact what most people call a religion ..
Is a main source of the problem of reality perspective when applied to religion...reality states that trail and error as a foundation for knowledge is a solid learning tool...but religion short-circuits that learning processes by introducing none observable misrepresentation as fact , history or both and then builds upon this house of cards....supersitions......that’s were the suffering comes in too play...creating needless conflict...bases on ignorant supersitions of the devil and the boogey man....now it’s the dreaded terrorist....Now it’s beginning to look like this British airways liquid bombing plot....has some holes in the bucket...not much unlike the case of the 7 men being detained in the case down in Liberty City , Florida.........
Bush is a religous fanatic....he believes in the end of days and all that gorey bullshit....so all this stuff is just a matter of fact for him...a prophecy....of some sort...and also there is the money.
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 14, 2006 at 10:14 PM Redhorse imagines that the choppers mild humor is a sign of an even milder sense of reality.....
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 14, 2006 at 10:19 PM “now its the dreaded terrorist....”
9/11 actually happened. So did 7/11 in Britian. To dismiss terrorism as an “ignorant superstition” means denying reality.
“If they (the Jews) all gather in Israel it will save us the trouble of going after them on a worldwide basis”
Nassan Nasrallah, Shi’ite cleric and leader of Hizbollah.
Posted by chopper on Aug 14, 2006 at 10:24 PM “Redhorse imagines that the choppers mild humor is a sign of an even milder sense of reality.....”
Yeah, whatever…
Posted by chopper on Aug 14, 2006 at 10:26 PM chopper...you sound like some rookie...like this type of thing never happened before.....
The US response and occupation of Iraq and the Isreali attack on Lebanon...are two heads of the same coin of disproportionate reaction to a precognition of a terrorist threat ; that in fact do not exist.......freedom fighter....terrorist......vs......invading occupation...democracy…
the logic of the choppy one is more of a molden fog in reason , so as to create the conditions for a delusional experience.............
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 14, 2006 at 10:57 PM “chopper...you sound like some rookie...like this type of thing never happened before.....
The US response and occupation of Iraq and the Isreali attack on Lebanon...are two heads of the same coin of disproportionate reaction to a precognition of a terrorist treat ; that in fact do not exist.....”“rookie”?? Is that the best you can muster for an insult? Are you getting soft?
Iraq and Lebanon are two different cases. The attacks on Israel were coming directly from Lebanon. The Lebanese government plainly lacked both the means and the will to bring a non-governmental armed force under its control. The cease fire being negotiated will only insure that the conflict will re-open at a latter date.
Posted by chopper on Aug 14, 2006 at 11:10 PM The Israelis arent going anywhere. Theyre there to stay. No argument about how and why the state was founded or whether it was historically legitimate will make any difference. Its all wasted breath. The Jews have a homeland, and considering the misery they endured for centuries at the hands (mostly) of Christians in Europe, not to mention the attacks they withstood for decades as the neighboring Arab states repeatedly ganged up on them, it should not surprise anyone if they defend their patch and their people as if their continued existence depended on it.
This doesnt change the fact that Israels enemies are gaining a propaganda victory (and in the minds of some, a moral victory) on the heels of 1000+ civilian Lebanese deaths. And even though militias like Hezbollah and governments like that in Iran may never actually be able to destroy Israel as they constantly say they intend to do, events like those of the last month only strengthen those enemies and increase their support, in the region and worldwide. Is that in anyones interest? Is it in the interest of Israel? The US? Lebanon? Is it in the interest of world peace or the expansion of justice? No. Its only in the interest of hardliners, who see any form of compromise as an ignoble defeat. Its in the interest of charismatic figures like Nasrullah, who can and has claimed victory in the context of the recent cease-fire. Does anyone really think that he has been weakened by the events of the last 5 weeks?
If the world wants to help resolve this seemingly endless issue, the rich states (esp. America, but not them exclusively) will have to do far more than give out with insipid calls for restraint or half-baked ceasefires. The world community will have to invest its energies in a solution that includes (finally) the founding of a sovereign Palestinian Arab state in the occupied West Bank territories, including admonishing Israel to undertake the removal of Israeli settlers whose claim to the land relies on little more than millennia-old scroll fragments. It will have to invest in a viable Palestinian economic structure. It will have to promote the diplomatic recognition of that new state by Israel and the rest of the world.
And, also very important, the rich world will have to make unequivocally clear its continued commitment to Israels right to exist, which includes the right to defend itself. They should use their collective leverage within the UN to make it clear that, as a member state, Israel will get immediate assistance by the Security Council as well as its traditional allies in the event they are attacked again, by the new Palestinian state or whomever. The rich countries should link their diplomatic and economic support of Israel and the other states in the region to the pursuit of these goals. Countries that sponsor armed militias abroad should face economic isolation (after all, there are other oil-producing states than Iran), and militias like Hezbollah should be surrounded, starved of war-making materiel, and ultimately disbanded. Lebanon has been free of Syrian troops for a year. They finally had a chance to start anew with democratic institutions and as clean a slate as any state is likely to get. The world should offer concrete assistance to any effort they will make toward disbanding or absorbing Hezbollah into their regular army, as well as helping their local contractors in the rebuilding that will have to take place after a month of bombardment.
All of these goals will require active and forthright engagement by the rich and strong countries, and this will include commitment of peacekeeping forces and therefore an investment of blood as those peacekeepers face attack by an increasingly desperate Hezbollah. Talk is and always has been cheap. If the world (esp. its rich states) really wants to be of help, they better just decide to get their hands dirty and offer something other than diplo-babble and 24-hour news coverage.
Posted by Kuya on Aug 15, 2006 at 2:16 AM What is interesting is europes ability to export it’s problems onto other nations....and then effectively deferr blame too the victimized nation.....
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 15, 2006 at 5:43 AM there are no solutions, because there are no problems - duchamp
kuya, you seem to have really poured your heart into the panacea you proposed.
but the age-old power structure militates against the rich and powerful posing as good samaritans, unless the posture serves the power structure in some way. the collective future doesn’t matter. that is why we will not find the rich and powerful, whoever they may be, developing those countries in the quixotic way you envision.
the creation of the state of israel served a purpose, and not a moral one. it is important to examine it, kuya, because it is of utmost relevance in understanding the current situation. it may be history, as you insist, but unexamined history isn’t worth living.
zionism is religious nationalism. it insists that the jewish people must occupy their biblical homeland to achieve true nationhood; this of course underscores the mystical, religious element to their fantasy. an interesting idea: but very religious, and therefore irrational.
blood begins to pour begins when zionism achieves political legitimacy, first in england when the balfour declaration sanctions untrammeled immigration into formerly palestine; and later, when the un - spearheaded by america - created israel. zionism won the day; it achieved its mystical vision. but at the expense of what?
i will not go over the displacements, atrocities, and tensions that this immediately caused, not to mention the ongoing issues. any sober-headed appraisal of the aftermath grants that both palestineans and jews have suffered. because of an idea. one begins to understand what doestoevsky meant when he called political, fanatical fantasies demons - demons that suck our blood and corrode our flesh.
and demons breed demons. why - the displaced people wondered - why did the power structure - kuya’s rich and powerful countries - grant legitimacy to this crazy, racist idea called zionism? why did they allow this fantasy to come true, at the expense of our homes, our children, our flesh and blood? well, the displaced people conclude, something must be wrong with the power structure - undoubtedly true. and they turn to another demon - islamic fundamentalism, a kissing cousin of zionism - and like all religious ideas, less than rational.
so, zionism now serves the power structure. islamic fundamentalism is opposed to it. the former furthers so-called democracy and freedom and those other meaningless intoxicating slogans. the latter dishes out terrorism. it is all very simple and unproblematic.
kuya, it isn’t cynicism but an unromanticized view of history that compels me to say: don’t expect the power structure to change its nature. we can only watch it die and fade away into the history from which it can’t learn.
Posted by echecache on Aug 15, 2006 at 3:29 PM Look...what has too be realized is that capital...meaning money operates on a different set of values and laws as opposed to the average citizen....The US was never created to be a champion of virtue...the founders of this nation were about land and money and the exploitation of whatever or whoever got in the way.....
So now the US as a nation...is at a crossroads were it’s faced with it’s past and the resulting blowback...and is also looking at a world that is no longer afraid or respectful of US objectives…
Isreal is but one of those stumbling imperialist ventures...undertaken by men of wealth and a perverted sense of reality as it relates to virtue and the moral structure of society.....It’s true value is what it is...an outpost...a religio-militaristic lookout for the region...especially for South Afrika before the fall of apartied…
Now stratigically the attention is on Iraq and Iran....Syria....the Congo…
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 15, 2006 at 6:07 PM Thanks for the response, echecache.
It is true my turn of phrase can sometimes have an impassioned tone, although certainly I had no thought of a panacea; in fact I don’t believe such things exist. I do think that one’s take on Israel’s founding is not the most important focus, though I suppose it would give one a context from which the meaning of today’s events might be understood. In the meantime, trying to figure out what might be done to lower the tensions was my main thrust, with the emphasis upon the powerful countries’ role being based on what I would consider the practicalities of the situation. They have helped set the stage for today by way of their actions over the past 50+ years, and it seems logical to me that their influence (whether helpful or malignant) will have a deep effect upon any move toward a solution… if a solution is even possible!
When you say “our homes, our children”, I can only conclude that you and your family have experienced some bad consequences from all this. Do I have that right?
In any case, as I look at all of this from my own angle and context (quite obviously limited in breadth, as would be nearly anyone’s), I think of the role of other players (i.e. beyond only Israel and Lebanon) as having the greater share of influence over what has been happening there, for decades as well as in recent weeks. Not like that requires an epiphany, mind you, it’s simply the backstory of my emphasis upon powers who have had a determinative role in the region’s endless anger and fighting. US, EU, UN, Iran, Syria, Israel itself, we could go on.
It’s almost a charge to them to work toward cleaning up the mess they’ve helped make. Whether power players ever listen to anything but their own hungry mental agenda, well, it’s admittedly a long shot. One can dream and one can opinionate, I guess that’s what we do on these threads.
You’re perfectly correct to note religious nationalism as an example of irrationality. More’s the pity that it shows no sign of dying out.
If I was to focus on the combatants and the people they supposedly represent (rather than the surrounding power players), I’d point out the enduring refusal to accept the presence of “those others” in “our land”, along with the penchant for insisting upon settling generations-old scores violently, as an additional (primary? i don’t know) source of mayhem. I can understand the emotional need to strike back at an enemy, especially if one has suffered personal loss or watched a loved one suffer, or like now among Lebanese, having to endure fear, death, destruction, helplessness… maybe it’s arrogant to try to put myself into another’s psychological space when I’ve not walked in his shoes, or had my city bombarded or my loved ones kidnapped or killed. We try to understand, and then we take a shot at suggesting. Or blaming. Lots of blame to share around!
In any case, thanks again for the response.
Posted by Kuya on Aug 15, 2006 at 8:26 PM “All of these goals will require active and forthright engagement by the rich and strong countries, and this will include commitment of peacekeeping forces and therefore an investment of blood as those peacekeepers face attack by an increasingly desperate Hezbollah. Talk is and always has been cheap. If the world (esp. its rich states) really wants to be of help, they better just decide to get their hands dirty and offer something other than diplo-babble and 24-hour news coverage.”
UN peacekeeping forces have proven uniformly unwilling and or unable to take any action against Hezbollah’s violations of cease fires and disarmament agreements. I don’t expect it to be any different this time.
Posted by chopper on Aug 16, 2006 at 6:54 PM Chopper: “UN peacekeeping forces have proven uniformly unwilling and or unable to take any action against Hezbollahs violations of cease fires and disarmament agreements. I dont expect it to be any different this time”.
Erm...UNIFIL had no mandate to do so, they were introduced in 1978 to confirm ISRAELS withdrawal from Lebanon under resolution 425 which the Israelis obviously proceeded to ignore for 22 years. It was never intended to enforce resolution 1559, even if it had been how exactly was such a small U.N force supposed to disarm Hezbollah when the IDF has so singularly failed to do so? Ask nicely?
I mean going by your ‘logic’ why didn’t they take on the Israelis during their illegal occupation of Lebanon? It would have been more in line with the mandate they were actually given.
Posted by Azathoth on Aug 16, 2006 at 8:43 PM “Erm...UNIFIL had no mandate to do so, they were introduced in 1978 to confirm ISRAELS withdrawal from Lebanon under resolution 425 which the Israelis obviously proceeded to ignore for 22 years. It was never intended to enforce resolution 1559, even if it had been how exactly was such a small U.N force supposed to disarm Hezbollah when the IDF has so singularly failed to do so? Ask nicely?
I mean going by your logic why didnt they take on the Israelis during their illegal occupation of Lebanon? It would have been more in line with the mandate they were actually given.”
The UN forces didn’t take on the Israelis because they have the same lack of will to take them on that they have to take on anyone else. My larger point is that the UN is generally an ineffectual body and its “peacekeeping missions” usually accomplish little if anything. In keeping with this I don’t really expect any UN forces sent to Lebanon to make Hizbollah live up to its part of the cease fire. At some point the Israelis will be forced to go back into Lebanon, and will of course be denounced for “violating” the cease fire (and Hizbollah’s violations will be predictably ignored, expect for the US, which will be denounced for not ignoring them) and the fighting will resume.
Posted by chopper on Aug 16, 2006 at 9:15 PM “chopper....only in the world of the Rothchild bankers...and the little Zionist piglets that troll for there interests...does your post make any sense....In the other 99.999 % ad infinitum of the world...your post is pure 365 degrees of...all around BULLSHIT....... “
Wow redhorse, good to see your self-righteousness, arrogance, and obscenities coming back. I was getting worried there for a minute. How did you get such an impressive statistic (99.999%) and when did any percentage become infinity? And to top it off you went 5 degrees beyond a complete circle. Most impressive!
Posted by chopper on Aug 16, 2006 at 9:26 PM Chopper: “The UN forces didnt take on the Israelis because they have the same lack of will to take them on that they have to take on anyone else. My larger point is that the UN is generally an ineffectual body and its peacekeeping missions usually accomplish little if anything.”
Utter bollocks, admittedly they’re often hamstrung by the mandate which they are given but in many countries i.e El Salvador, Cambodia, Mozambique, Cyprus, East Timor...I could go on, they’re extremely successful, do you have any clue in how many countries the United Nations puts itself between trigger-happy combatants around the globe?
Obviously not, as a typical right wing American you’ll cherry pick a few failures and claim this represents U.N peacekeeping efforts as a whole when in fact it does nothing of the sort and you’ll make no mention whatsoever of the massive amount of humanitarian assistance they supply around the world, fortunately this is a view shared only by you and a few Israeli’s who aren’t disturbed by John Bolton’s moustache.
Posted by Azathoth on Aug 16, 2006 at 10:09 PM WAR CRIME NOT “SELF DEFENSE”
The Israeli terror state, who had been occupying parts of Lebanon since 1978, as they were on July 12th of this year, has no self-defense argument. Israel has been the aggressor, invader and occupier of Lebanese lands (not vice-versa), and should be punished by the international community with sanctions and a complete arms embargo.
As far as the alleged “kidnapping” of soldiers, this CAPTURE occurred inside of Lebanese territory, as admitted to by the IDF and an Israeli minister on July 12th, BEFORE the Big Lie was settled upon (that Hezbollah entered Israeli territory).
See:
Operation “Change of Location”?
How Reports of the July 12th Capture of IDF Soldiers Soon Shifted From Lebanon to Israel
By TRISH SCHUH
Counterpunch, August 15, 2006
http://counterpunch.org/schuh08152006.htmlIsraeli terror by aerial bombardment of civilian infrastructure has risen to the level of Crimes Against Humanity, and therefore is of concern to all of us. It is Israel that has attacked and murdered over a tho0usand Lebanese civilians, not vice-versa. The lies of corporate media, sympathetic to Israel’s lies not withstanding.
If you have a conscience, you must oppose Israeli naked aggression and mass murder. What they have done (and are doing) in Gaza and West Bank is another Crime Against Humanity, and completely illegal under international law (which only suits Israel or the US when it is in their favor).
UN resolutions have demanded that Israel leave conquered territory unconditionally since 1967. They refuse to do so, and they maintain a military occupation and apartheid state based on racist criteria. Not a “democracy”, they are only a democracy for those of the Jewish faith. Non-Jews are discriminated against in law and in representation.
Israel is indefensible on a moral plane. US tax money must stop flowing to Israeli terrorists in the state and in the occupied territories.
Without US money, Israel would have to stop oppressing the Palestinians and the Lebanese. It is US support that enables these atrocities. Your tax dollars are murdering infants in Lebanon, Gaza and West Bank. You have a responsibility to speak up.
It’s a question of right and wrong, not right vs. left. Do not believe the Zionist propaganda (which is ever present and well funded, widely broadcast). Zionist lies have been debunked since the creation of the raacist Zionist state, a state formed by terrorism and ethnic cleansing of the already occupied lands of Palestine.
Stop rewarding Zionist aggression. That is the only way to a peace settlement, which would arguably be better for all.
John Doraemi publishes Crimes of the State:
http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/
###
Posted by johndoraemi on Aug 17, 2006 at 2:06 PM .....Israel has been the aggressor, invader and occupier of Lebanese lands (not vice-versa).....
.....It is Israel that has attacked and murdered over a tho0usand Lebanese civilians, not vice-versa.....
johndoraemi,
you obviously live in a cave somewhere if you think that Israel is the aggressor. Or perhaps you are Palestinian or Lebanese, which would explain your biased statements.
Posted by inquiringminds on Aug 17, 2006 at 8:08 PM “ you obviously live in a cave somewhere if you think that Israel is the aggressor. “
Oh, you really destroyed my arguments ... not-so-"inquiringmind"…
The old living in a cave slam, like Osama! You are devilishly capable. I’m in awe of your debating skills.
John Doraemi publishes Crimes of the State:
http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/
Posted by johndoraemi on Aug 18, 2006 at 6:16 PM I wasn’t attempting to destroy your argument, just stating the truth that Israel is not the aggressor. They are just defending their homeland and fighting for what rightfully belongs to them. You don’t have to have “debating skills” to state the truth and it speak for itself.
So, why are YOU so against Israel? What have they done to you?
Posted by inquiringminds on Aug 18, 2006 at 8:01 PM “Utter bollocks, admittedly theyre often hamstrung by the mandate which they are given but in many countries i.e El Salvador, Cambodia, Mozambique, Cyprus, East Timor...I could go on, theyre extremely successful, do you have any clue in how many countries the United Nations puts itself between trigger-happy combatants around the globe?
Obviously not, as a typical right wing American youll cherry pick a few failures and claim this represents U.N peacekeeping efforts as a whole when in fact it does nothing of the sort and youll make no mention whatsoever of the massive amount of humanitarian assistance they supply around the world, fortunately this is a view shared only by you and a few Israelis who arent disturbed by John Boltons moustache.”I could as easily say you are cherry picking the few successes. I’ll have to check into them, but in the middle East the UN presence has pretty much been a bad joke. I don’t really expect them to do much better this time, with or without John Bolton’s moustache.
Yeah, they do manage to pull off some humanitarian assistance every so often, but what does that have to do with my point about their peacekeeping abilities? If you want to play that game you are ignoring the fact that the UN is also massively corrupt, and a lot of the money supposedly going to humanitarian assistance ends up instead in the Swiss bank accounts of third world dictators. A lot more is wasted on hiring the relatives of third world politicos for its hugely swollen bureaucracy.
There seems to be some sort of dynamic with you left wing “deep thinkers”. The more ineffectual an organization is the more you are in love with it. Since the UN is one of the most incompetent organizations on the planet the left is absolutely gaga about it.
Posted by chopper on Aug 19, 2006 at 12:14 AM inquiringminds....Nothing wrong with living in a cave , we all do the best we can with what we have.....Interesting.....is your rather...shall I say...fantasy interpretation of history....
Isreal has always been the aggressor in this conflict from the get go...sense 1949....
Redhorse would speculate that by the same logic...the US is protecting their homeland in Iraq by invading that country…
How can Isreal be protecting it’s homeland....when there homeland is europe ?....How can the Arab people be anti-semitic , when they are the semites ?....
The blatant racist , fascist nature of misinformation on this subject is astoundingly simplistic...but effective...just repeat the lie....again and again....blame the victim....find ways to dehumanize your intended target....and of course...execution… .
Redhorse has a vision of the propagandistic nature of the dis-ease...50 , maybe 100 years from now , your history books will tell you that Martin Luther King was a european and the civil rights movement was started by a southern law enforcement official by the name of Bull Conner....Oprah Winfrey was really a skinny white woman...and that Dick Cheney was the 43rd president of the United States...he served 3 terms...and allegations of voter fraud never happened......
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 19, 2006 at 2:32 AM Now chopper....Redhorse read your post and thought....maybe this guy has a valid point...naw.....
The UN is ineffective because the US has all the power...if a country goes against the US....the good ol’ boys from the US...send in the CIA....
Most , if not all UN debacles are CIA strong-arm centered...most so-called third world dictators are CIA informants....
Now the other thing you talked about is that lefties like ineffectual organizations...the UN being the example of ineffectualness.....
The concept of unity is basic to a more progressive...sane...reasonable society...too be drawn to unity is in fact good mental health.....
The dynamic of the neo-con is quite opposite...drawn to devious and shifty behavior...the hawkish God complex many adhere too...believing that only they can possess “ God “...and that biblical scripture is the mandate for international policy.....this is… in fact… insanity.....and quite delusional.......
Now the Horse might be able too , with the help of the rest of the forest creatures...fix an ineffectual organization......but the odds on finding a cure for the mental dis-ease that is the neo-cons predicament...without heavy medication.......the prognosis is decidedly dismal....
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 19, 2006 at 3:39 AM “Most , if not all UN debacles are CIA strong-arm centered...most so-called third world dictators are CIA informants....”
Do you have any evidence for this?
“Now the other thing you talked about is that lefties like ineffectual organizations...the UN being the example of ineffectualness.....
The concept of unity is basic to a more progressive...sane...reasonable society...too be drawn to unity is in fact good mental health.....”This is rather vague, if not downright gaseous. Exactly what are you driving at?
“The dynamic of the neo-con is quite opposite...drawn to devious and shifty behavior...the hawkish God complex many adhere too...believing that only they can possess God ...and that biblical scripture is the mandate for international policy.....this is in fact insanity.....and quite delusional.......
Now the Horse might be able too , with the help of the rest of the forest creatures...fix an ineffectual organization......but the odds on finding a cure for the mental dis-ease that is the neo-cons predicament...without heavy medication.......the prognosis is decidedly dismal....”This is even worse, it is almost meaningless blather. Most of the so-called neo-conservatives are decidely secular. They may favor many of the same foreign policy prescriptions as many religious conservatives, but they are a distinctly different group. I doubt many neo-conservatives, for instance, really care much about abortion. Perhaps when you want to criticize someone you should actually read their works instead of getting everything second or third hand, which you have apparently done.
Also, when people try to “psychoanalyze” someone based on their political leanings what normally results is a bad joke, such as what you wrote above.
Posted by chopper on Aug 19, 2006 at 10:24 PM What Redhorse is saying is you lack mental stability and are delusional....All of your rhetoric doesn’t change the facts or the illogical nature of your position...it points to the gulliblity of the chopper…
The problem dear chopper is that there is no joke...your belief in fictional information as fact is the driving force behind this administrations ability to pull off the genocidal policies in Iraq and Palestine....Bucky Fush and friends know that they can decieve folks like the chopper 100 % of the time.......The Horse is not interested in documenting the trail of CIA mania....But a good book , although the authors name escapes my memory at this moment is “ Confessions of an Economic Hit Man “...also...” In Search of Enemies , A CIA Story “...by John Stockwell....
The Final Call newspaper ran a photo of Bush 41.....back when the man was president.....He was seated on a couch in Panama , next to Manuel Noriega , at the time of the photo Bush 41 was the CIA director.....Now later when Iran/Contra hit the fan… the ol’ man Bush said that...he was not aware that Noriega was a drug dealer or that he was a CIA informant....
Bush 41 is a former CIA director...but didn’t know that Noriega was on the payroll.....? What did Ollie North say during testimony...” that the nature of his job is too lie...be decietful....”
Evidence....yeah right.,… try a little comparative analysis...Why don’t we just go over to the CIA headquaters and ask......was Saddam Hussien on the CIA payroll.....how about Mobutu in Zaire or maybe Savimbi in Angola…
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 20, 2006 at 6:37 AM “What Redhorse is saying is you lack mental stability and are delusional....”
As I stated above, trying to “psychoanalyze” someone based on their political leanings usually results in a bad joke. Thanks for helping me to make my point.
“Confessions of an Economic Hit Man ...” By John Perkins. Saw him do an interview. I found him less than impressive.
“The Final Call newspaper ran a photo of Bush 41.....back when the man was president.....He was seated on a couch in Panama , next to Manuel Noriega , at the time of the photo Bush 41 was the CIA director.....Now later when Iran/Contra hit the fan the ol man Bush said that...he was not aware that Noriega was a drug dealer or that he was a CIA informant....
Bush 41 is a former CIA director...but didnt know that Noriega was on the payroll.....? What did Ollie North say during testimony... that the nature of his job is too lie...be decietful....
Evidence....yeah right.,… try a little comparative analysis...Why dont we just go over to the CIA headquaters and ask......was Saddam Hussien on the CIA payroll.....how about Mobutu in Zaire or maybe Savimbi in Angola”This has little to do with the discussion, and if you ever have studied history the story of two allies or powers that cooperate and then become enemies is an old one. It would be off topic to go into this in depth, but a few that come to mind are Rome and Carthage, Great Britian and the American colonies, the United States and the Soviet Union (although I imagine with your politics you regret that the Soviets didn’t win the Cold War).
Posted by chopper on Aug 21, 2006 at 2:15 AM Yeah.....you are right chopper , all of your examples have a numb-nutt nuckleheaded leader or military figure that brought about the demise of their respective nations....
Just like your buddy Bush....
.Isreal has stated that this whole operation , at best… was a draw....not understanding that Hezbollah fighters would not back down....All Isreal has accomplished is too raise the stock of Hezballah in the world community...simultaneously lowering their own standing among nations...just like the Bush neo-cons....The blind leading the blind.......Now the chopper is a mime or better a parrot...repeating everything Redhorse states....only there is no substantive reply....maybe your on-line name should be Lay-Zee.....or the Mockingbird....
This is not a discussion , this is a lecture....the Horse speaks and the chopper weeps.....
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 21, 2006 at 3:52 AM Chopper: “There seems to be some sort of dynamic with you left wing deep thinkers. The more ineffectual an organization is the more you are in love with it. Since the UN is one of the most incompetent organizations on the planet the left is absolutely gaga about it.”
It’s the ideal, reflected in its charter, which I admire. I mean I can’t see why so many of you right wingers have such a problem with the UN, it provides convenient resolutions you can cherry pick to start wars of choice and then, after riding roughshod over its charter and after everything’s gone horribly wrong you can use it to gain handy ceasefires or give legitamacy to occupations and the like, a most convenient arrangement I would have thought.
Posted by Azathoth on Aug 21, 2006 at 10:24 AM Hizbullah’s attacks stem from Israeli incursions into Lebanon
By Anders Strindberg
08/01/06 “Christian Science Monitor”—-- NEW YORK As pundits and policymakers scramble to explain events in Lebanon, their conclusions are virtually unanimous: Hizbullah created this crisis. Israel is defending itself. The underlying problem is Arab extremism. Sadly, this is pure analytical nonsense. Hizbullah’s capture of two Israeli soldiers on July 12 was a direct result of Israel’s silent but unrelenting aggression against Lebanon, which in turn is part of a six-decades long Arab-Israeli conflict.
Since its withdrawal of occupation forces from southern Lebanon in May 2000, Israel has violated the United Nations-monitored “blue line” on an almost daily basis, according to UN reports. Hizbullah’s military doctrine, articulated in the early 1990s, states that it will fire Katyusha rockets into Israel only in response to Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians or Hizbullah’s leadership; this indeed has been the pattern.
In the process of its violations, Israel has terrorized the general population, destroyed private property, and killed numerous civilians. This past February, for instance, 15-year-old shepherd Yusuf Rahil was killed by unprovoked Israeli cross-border fire as he tended his flock in southern Lebanon. Israel has assassinated its enemies in the streets of Lebanese cities and continues to occupy Lebanon’s Shebaa Farms area, while refusing to hand over the maps of mine fields that continue to kill and cripple civilians in southern Lebanon more than six years after the war supposedly ended. What peace did Hizbullah shatter?
continued
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0801/p09s02-coop.html
Posted by Spinoza750 on Aug 23, 2006 at 9:12 PM “Yeah.....you are right chopper , all of your examples have a numb-nutt nuckleheaded leader or military figure that brought about the demise of their respective nations....”
And what does the above mean? Anything? Are you saying all alliances are between numb-nutts, or all of them have a numb-nutt in there some where, or alliances are best avoided? Inquiring minds want to know.
“Just like your buddy Bush.... “
Don’t know him personally…
“Isreal has stated that this whole operation , at best was a draw....not understanding that Hezbollah fighters would not back down....All Isreal has accomplished is too raise the stock of Hezballah in the world community...simultaneously lowering their own standing among nations...just like the Bush neo-cons....The blind leading the blind.......”
Israel achieved less than stellar results because their liberal politicans bungled the operation. Even so Hezbollah took a bigger hit than it is admitting.
“Now the chopper is a mime or better a parrot...repeating everything Redhorse states....only there is no substantive reply....maybe your on-line name should be Lay-Zee.....or the Mockingbird....
This is not a discussion , this is a lecture....the Horse speaks and the chopper weeps..... “I really love your doggeral, although it’s connection to reality is almost non-existent.
Posted by chopper on Aug 28, 2006 at 4:04 PM You have no vision....reality....hmmm...the chopper and reality...yeah sure…
Doggerel...that’s pretty good.......funny.....
The chopper says my verse is sloppy...but misspells Dogger-a-l.........ok....
Posted by Redhorse on Aug 28, 2006 at 5:44 PM “Doggerel...thats pretty good.......funny.....
The chopper says my verse is sloppy...but misspells Dogger-a-l.........ok....”“Isreal has stated that this whole operation , at best”
Doggerel, Doggeral, Isreal, Israel...I guess we all have our misspellings....
Posted by chopper on Aug 30, 2006 at 4:33 PM
Posted by johndoraemi on Aug 31, 2006 at 1:19 PM The situation in Gaza is horrendous and the people are in desperate straights.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14830.htm
What can we do to help?
Posted by Spinoza750 on Sep 4, 2006 at 9:38 PM After the latest war, i wonder how can we describe the cowardly noises coming out of the world’s politicians? Even after the massacre of 52 civilians the White House continued to mumble their sick mantra: ‘Israel has the right to defend itself’.
Read that again please, because it certainly bears repeating.The more innocent civilians are being mercilessly slaughtered in Lebanon, the more this monstrously obscene excuse gets trotted out by the fat pigs on the hill. The only people who still believe this (as the eloquent Bush would say) s***, are the ones who believe that the Middle East conflict started with Hezbollah’s kidnappings. Even my nine-year-old nephew wondered how Israel’s actions could be called ‘defensive’.
Israel has the right to defend itself. What next Mr. Bush? Thieves have the right to make a living. Rapists have the right to have fun. Tony Blair, likewise, is, and has been for a long time, a figure of ridicule. Here is a man so spineless that he is willing to ignore the voices of his own people, and indeed his own party, so as not incur the wrath of Bush and his team of gangsters.
The British and American people deserve far better than these two utter cowards for their leaders. Saddest of all has been the staggering political incompetence, and impotence, of the United Nations Security Council. Of course when it comes to Lebanon and Palestine, the UN has never exactly been known to jump into decisive action, but this latest conflict must surely be the final nail in the coffin of this terminally lame organization. At least there was a time when they did what they have always done best: condemn. Even on the day that a UN post in South Lebanon was callously attacked, killing four of his own peacekeepers, Mr. Kofi Annan, who these days is certainly a few condemnations short of a full resolution, continued to absolve Israel of any blame. He did however fearlessly warn Hezbollah to stop firing bombs at innocent Israeli civilians in Haifa, confirming that the lunatics have certainly taken over the asylum.
A dear American friend told me a few days ago that my tone has taken a distinctly anti-US turn. For that I make no apologies, a quick look at the protests taking place around the world will tell you that that is the feeling of the common people on the streets. We don’t criticize America for the sake of it; we criticize its government for its complicity in what is nothing short of genocide. And as I told my friend, our few anti-western comments are a mere drop in the ocean compared to the vicious treatment that Arabs/Muslims receive in the western media.
I wonder how American mothers who’ve seen there boys perish in the name of the ‘war on terror’ feel about the fact that their government is far more hysterical about two kidnapped Israeli soldiers than with the ‘collateral damage’ that is the piling body bags in Baghdad and Kabul.
I’m sure. Everybody has seen the picture of Israeli children writing messages on missiles that were later dropped on Lebanon, with the headline ‘Message of hate’. Some questioned whether those pictures were doctored, and one graphic designer even offered his expert opinion on the certainty that the photo was “photo shopped”. Now, I’ll leave it to this gentleman to take that up with the world’s news agencies, but the point here is that people are willing to NOT BELIEVE THEIR OWN EYES, rather than accept that Israel could be guilty of something that they have been brainwashed into believing is the sole domain of “terrorist Arabs.” And how sad is it that at a time when children are being murdered every day, some people are still more concerned that Israel’s good name could be tarnished in any way.How many people have to be wrong for Israel to be right?
Our voices, your voices, just like the voices of millions around the world will continue to be ignored by these politicians.
After all, as the cowards continue to remind us, Israel has the right to defend itself.
Posted by zizo on Sep 20, 2006 at 5:18 AM No time to discuss the complex causes and crossed interests. Just one comment: as far as I have seen, no one has challenged the horse’s comment that Israelis are Europeans, nor the comment that it is ‘religious nationalism’. In fact, the majority of Israelis are from (or children of those from) such non-European countries as Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Yemen, Morocco… But that is an uncomfortable fact for those who see the world through Manicheistic glasses (European = good; 3rd world = bad?). Secondly, the Jews are members of a nation, a nation that has lived scattered among others for 2000 years, after the Romans crushed a couple of rebellions and practiced their own ethnic cleansing. Just like Armenians live all over and have one religion and a language, so the Jews. The English language (Likje most langauges) has unfortunately confused the issue by using Jew for someone of Jewish parentage, for someone of Jewish ethnicity, culture, and or language, and for a member of the Jewish religion. The founders of Israel were almost all of them not synagogue Jews but believers in a Jewish nation. This nation was deprived of its independent state (like many others) and maintained its national character and a separate language (unli8ke most others)—as time passed, Hebrew was replaced by Judeo-Aramaic and that by Judeo-Spanish, or Judezmo, Judeo-Arabic or Shuadit, and Judeo-German which evolved into Yiddish. Each of these is a fusion language like English, with elements joined from different base languages (for Yiddish, Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, German, Polish, Russian). I have never heard of those defined by a religion developed their own vernacular language and literature. Israelis are not all (or even mostly) either European or religious. (I might add that I am not a Zionist, that I am opposed to much of Israeli policy, but that I also am opposed to false generalizations and easy labels.
Posted by mameloshn on Sep 20, 2006 at 6:29 PM When the US invaded Iraq, some argued that the war against Iraq was fought by US on behalf of Israel. A perception that could not be easily dismissed given that the war was planned and advocated by Israel’s friends in Washington.
During the war on Lebanon, Israeli commentators argued that the war on Lebanon was fought by Israel on behalf of the US to destroy the military power of Hezbollah perceived by Washington as a tool of Iranian influence in the region.
Again, last week, several US newspapers reported that the key objective of the recent Israeli foreign minister’s visit to Washington was to urge Bush to launch pre-emptive strikes against Iran’s nuclear facilities. Israel, according to the US media, sought to line up the Jewish lobby to help convince Bush to abandon diplomacy and adopt the military option.
Trying to understand
For years, analysts have been trying to understand US-Israeli relations and the role of the Jewish lobby in the making of US foreign policy towards the Middle East. Many charged that Jewish lobbying groups, such as the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), control and dictate US policy towards the Arab world. This argument was often regarded by the mainstream US academia as fiction and that it lacked minimal academic standards. This was the case until last April when the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University shocked the US academic community by publishing a study analysing the role of the Jewish lobby in the making of US foreign policy.
The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy charged that American foreign policy has been subordinated to Israeli interests and accused the pro-Israel lobby of responsibility for America’s invasion of Iraq.
The most revealing part of the study was its contention that American foreign policy serves Israel’s interest more often than US interests.
Other groups have managed to skew foreign policy, but no lobby has managed to divert it as far from what the national interest would suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that US interests and Israel are essentially identical.”
The study has also shown that since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing that given to any other state in the world. And is the largest recipient in total since the Second World War, to the tune of well over $140 billion.”
The damage caused by the Harvard-sponsored study to the Jewish lobbying groups was enormous. For the first time in the history of US-Israeli relations a prestigious and respected academic institution in the US dares to speak up about such a sensitive topic considered by many in the US as taboo.
Jewish groups in the US decided to remain silent, in order to avoid generating public debate about the study.
The findings of the study were ignored by the major print media in the US. In the past few weeks, the study came out in the light once again but from a different angle, causing yet another source of concern for Israel and its friends in the US.
Given that Israel had fought on behalf of the US in Lebanon, the poor performance of the Israeli army against Hezbollah has irritated many in the US, who cited the Harvard study to question Israel’s importance for the US. The argument went like this: Israel has so far received tens of billions of dollars from the money of the American taxpayers and when asked to do the US a favour, confront such a small organisation Hezbollah it miserably failed.
How this argument is going to develop is everybody’s guess. Yet, it seems that after decades of complete blackout, the role of the Jewish lobby and the importance of Israel for US interests are becoming matters of public debate.
Posted by zizo on Sep 22, 2006 at 12:03 AM But the policy is not in the interests of Jews and really not in the interest of Israel.
It is a policy only in the interests of right wing fucks. These fascists believe in might makes right and this has been the American foreign policy since the so called cold war. There is a war but it is right vs left or more accurately force vs. reason. Fascism must be defeated. The Bushites/Likudniks must be defeated On October 5th we should try to start a major drive to drive out the Bush regime and all right wing ideology and that means driving out the Democrats also. It is long past time due for a revolution.
Defeat Fascism. Everyone out Qctober 5th.
Go to the worldcantwait.net web site.
Posted by Spinoza750 on Sep 22, 2006 at 12:55 AM Spinoza750.....Yeah....you got it right....only difference from my viewpoint is that the policy of the US Gov’t has always been that MIGHT is right from the very inception of this nation.....Now the rest of the world is no longer scared or intimidated , soooo now....all these nations....whether indigenous or forriegn , want...REPARATIONS or RETRIBUTIONS of some sort.....
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