Page 1 of 1 pages
Both my father and maternal grandfather served in the WWs-2&1 respectiively. Both men were volunteers, and my grandfather was wounded. Three of his four brothers were killed in the war, which sent my great grandmother mad with grief.
Neither men were under any illusions about war, and both were utterly immune to BS rhetoric about the glory and moral clarity that violence and death brings. Although both are now dead, I learnt at an early age that War brings nothing but death and tears, even if, as in WW2, it was felt to be necessary. Because both were real soldiers, volunteers, not conscripts, and because both were intelligent men, neither of them had any time at all for blow hard jingoism, and attempts by third rate politicians to rally young men into wars that were not a product of a real struggle, but the product of ideological crusades and the desire to mobilise sentiment to support the reelection of scoundrels
The political campaign in both the US and to a lesser but still palpable extent here in Australia, to dress up hunting down terrorists, (who when all said and done, employ an oppositional technique that was common in much of 19th century Europe) as the moral and existential equivalence of WW2, is, simply, a disgrace. To dress it up as the new ‘cold war’ is both historically and factually, illiterate. I think that the true meaning of all the guff you describe may be that the politicians and the absurd and sinister ratbags who amplify this rubbish, are searching for a narrative that makes them the heroes, and the rest of us, politicaly immobile.
I, for one, am simply unpersuaded, and I hope for the rest, that the people who are the sons and daughters of the people who actually did the fighting in WW2, as opposed to those who now make money talking and making films about it, will aslo resist this pathetic, dangerous and politicaly illiterate campaign of obfuscation and deceit.
It is vitally impoertant that everyone resist, and the first step in resisting the nonesense is to take a deep breath, and ask yourself, if all this is the moral equivalent of WW2, who is making the sacrifices, and what kinds of sacrificies would be apporpriate in any case? If it is to be the moral equivalent of the cold war, how will we know when we have won?
Posted by Jane Doe on Sep 8, 2006 at 9:37 PM
The author seems to ignore the sham of it all. The “Pearl Harbor” analogy isn’t explored for validity (or for premeditation). As with all 9-11 references, they take the government’s version unquestioned and proceed from that starting point.
I for one, do not believe the government’s story about September 11. I also have a real problem with western intelligence services CREATING THE ENEMY by financing, protecting, training, and arming the most radical Islamic zealots. Then they turn around and claim we are all at risk from their own creations.
We are being played by the men in the shadows. There is abundant evidence for this. In nearly every attack attributed to “al Qaeda” you will find the fingerprints of MI-6, ISI, Mossad and CIA (not to mention others).
The most powerful forces in the world, those that can pull the strings behind the scenes, decided long ago that “terrorism” was the new “communism,” and needed to be coddled and raised to be a seemingly credible threat.
You can see how this plays out in western governments (like congressional “investigations”) when they cover up and do not mention the most important evidence that comes out.
For example, the hands of Pakistani intelligence are all over the 9-11 financing. The head of ISI ordered $100,000 wired to Mohamed Atta, by Omar Saeed Sheikh (a British born “terrorist” with some vague ties to bin Laden and to other Pakistani terror groups in Kashmir).
This financing was exposed by the press. The head of ISI was implicated in the 9-11 attacks. And the only place you hear about this stuff nowadays is from people like me.
The head of ISI resigned immediately after being caught red handed by Indian intelligence in the financing portion of 9-11, but he remains nowhere to be seen on the FBI’s Most Wanted List.
He (Lt. General Mahmoud Ahmad) seems to have never existed if you go by the 9-11 Omission Commission, or the Congressional Joint Inquiry (redacted) report.
This Pakistani ISI financing of 9-11 is my favorite example to trot out, seeing the anniversary and all. But I could easily go through my files, and find 100 more examples of links between terror attacks and western intelligence services. These have come out in mainstream news, and have been corroborated by the news organizations.
Still, most people don’t get it, and perhaps never will.
Posted by johndoraemi on Sep 10, 2006 at 9:04 PM
BRAND NEW 9/11 FILM:
9/11 Press For Truth
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1016720641536424083
Brand new film uses Paul Thompson’s Complete 9/11 Timeline as the spine of this in-depth investigation into 9/11, Al Qaeda, and the cover-up.
This is arguably the best and most comprehensive study of September 11th 2001 available. Send this link to your friends and those skeptical of the “truth movement.”
Posted by johndoraemi on Sep 11, 2006 at 1:27 AM
Today’s Democracy Now has a debate on the movie Loose Change. The problem with the conspiracy theories is that they don’t make sense in that there are too many witnesses. I don’t trust the Bushites but I don’t think they are that smart either.
As I’ve said before, if anything, the administration should have raised an alarm concerning a threat that they were warned about before the attack—- but I can understand why they didn’t. On the other hand not giving a warning can be conceived of as a conspiracy if the motivation was political in nature. We can’t know that one way or another.
We do know that the Bushites used the attack to achieve their ideological/political goals but that is another story. Most all right wingers were very very happy about the attack, especially Jewish right wingers who were gloating that now they can get the USA to go after the ragheads, their enemies.
On the other hand the recent scare about the attack on cross Atlantic planes was clearly politically manipulated and was done very stupidly so that Blair and Bush looked like crooks to anyone but mainstream audiences that where already convinced that they were under attack.
What we have to worry about is the manipulation to start the war against Iran and we need thousands and thousands of people in the streets. PLEASE PLEASE go to a World can’t Wait demonstration near you on October 5th.
worldcantwait.org
Posted by Spinoza750 on Sep 11, 2006 at 12:16 PM
Hi Spinoza,
Putting words in Ahmadinejihad’s mouth is a good place to start.
Deliberate mistranslation for Propaganda.
Surprising how many people believe sincerely that IRAN wants to wipe Israel off the map.
Well, understandable more like, because the media barrage on this here in france, and UK, is non-stop. Soundbites around the clock, in most of the newspapers, etc..
You are correct on the Liquid Bomber Scare
A complete farce.
Posted by frog on Sep 15, 2006 at 2:34 PM
“The problem with the conspiracy theories is that they don
Posted by johndoraemi on Sep 17, 2006 at 2:22 PM
Many people are in serious denial of the fact that the sole culprits behind 9/11 were radical brainwashed Islamic murderers. Some so deeply that they cling to notions of them not being in any way responsible for 9/11.
The movie “Obsession” takes a look into the disturbing world of radical Islam. You can watch/download it now on Google Video.
The “truth” movement would do well to see this movie. After all, they’re always saying they want a complete investigation into who brought down the towers. They might pick out some clues.
——————————————————
Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 “truth” movement into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense. You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment if you simply run your revelation du jour through the following before opening your mouth at that party, or sending that email to that friend who still assumes you are sane.—- Natalie
9/11 myths
Debunking 911
Peer reviewed papers debunking the “truth” movement.
(using Steven E. Jones’ standard for peer review) ;-)
Speaking of Jones, in addition to him being put on leave from BYU, it would appear that he has misrepresented photographic evidence in his now world famous “scholarly paper”:
Cooled chunk of molten steel
Cool chunk of pancaked debris
—————————-
16% of people believe in space aliens. 6% believe in bombs and missiles. (Truthies love polls, especially ones they can mis-represent.)
(most of this 6% don’t have more than a high school education and/or live in trailer parks) (not that there’s anything wrong with that—I don’t, and I used to!)
Truthies love videos
(warning…graphic images and coarse language)
——————
Not a single institute of Structural, Civil, Fire and Safety or Demolition Engineers on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory. Not a single institute of Architects on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory. Not a single institute of Engineers in any field on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.
Which begs the question— Why do you?
——————
We all know that the select group of incredibly intelligent, talented and brave people, who are capable of designing, building and fighting fires in huge structures such as the World Trade Center Twin Towers, universally agree that a combination of airplane impact damage, heat from fire, and gravity caused their collapse.
However, it should also be noted that another group of highly accomplished people, comprised of those who are capable of safely demolishing such structures, concurs. (120k pdf file)
A condensed and fully customized “NIST Report for Truthies” is now available for truthies that only have trailer court laundry “deposit a quarter for three minutes” dial-up Internet access.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 18, 2006 at 5:00 PM
Posted by zizo on Sep 20, 2006 at 3:54 AM
zizo, I’ve had the same opinion as you, there had to be more to the story than the fact that they hate our way of life. Unfortunately it goes much deeper than that the US and a war on Terror. The Muslim leaders have goals that aren’t too hard to find if one looks. They want to destroy Isreal; destroy the US; wreak havok around the world; and convert the everybody to Islam. As silly as this may sound they are serious with these goals. The world has ignored the problem for way too long and has allowed the movement to gain momentum.
The teaching of hate and violence goes so deep into the fabric of their society, it’s questionable whether democracy could ever work there. Maybe a Dictator like Saddam is needed to keep them in line.
With all of the intelligent people in the world I haven’t heard anybody that has a solution. I’m sick of the second guessers, I’d like to hear a plan that makes sense.
Posted by dduck on Sep 22, 2006 at 3:11 PM
“Many people are in serious denial of the fact that the sole culprits behind 9/11 were radical brainwashed Islamic murderers. Some so deeply that they cling to notions of them not being in any way responsible for 9/11.”
There is serious, serious “denial” here, all right.
The loaded term “sole culprits”, is essentially meaningless. The term implies that only the people (allegedly) on the planes were responsible. Not even the government subscribes to this theory. Hence the “war on terrorism” which seeks to go after the OTHER people they claim were involved, the “Al Qaeda network”.
Now, my disingenous friend, we must go more deeply into who exactly this “Al Qaeda network” is, who funds it, who arms it, who trains it, who protects it.
That is quite a large can of worms that you don’t seem capable of addressing in any form whatsoever, since your single minded purpose is to demonize the 9-11 Truth Movement.
Senator Bob Graham has already stated that one or more states were connected to the 9-11 operation. That destroys the “sole culprits” angle. Once a state is involved, we have something quite different than the radical extremsist acting on their own scenario. Covering up the attacks by our own government (including Graham, as he has not named the state(s)) is criminal obstruction of justice, at the least.
India exposed the Pakistani intelligence service ISI as directly funding the Mohamed Atta cell. If you don’t know about this by now, you’re the one living in denial.
Further, numerous Israelis were ARRESTED after the 9-11 attacks, 200 of them. Five were celebrating the destruction of the WTC towers, so outrageously, that the police were called, and those five were arrested and tortured by FBI agents. Of course, they were all quietly released without charge, sent back to Israel and the entire matter made “classified.”
Daniel Hopsicker, investigating the Florida “flight school” has found evidence of a protected drug smuggling ring there. The owners are shady, protected swindlers, who are not prosecuted for having 43 pounds of heroin seized by the DEA on one of their planes. Atta and his cohorts were invoved in the drug smuggling, as witnessed by Atta’s then American girlfriend Amanda Keller.
This is all a very different picture than the “sole culprits” scenario painted by the above poster. These are complex and shady networks, something along the lines of the CIA’s “Air America.”
The zionist and racist rants by another poster, whereby Muslims are inferior and incapable of democratically governing themselves are unworthy of comment.
Crimes of the State
Posted by johndoraemi on Sep 24, 2006 at 1:26 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
SAVE 53% OFFTHE NEWSSTAND PRICE!
Reader Comments
Both my father and maternal grandfather served in the WWs-2&1 respectiively. Both men were volunteers, and my grandfather was wounded. Three of his four brothers were killed in the war, which sent my great grandmother mad with grief.
Neither men were under any illusions about war, and both were utterly immune to BS rhetoric about the glory and moral clarity that violence and death brings. Although both are now dead, I learnt at an early age that War brings nothing but death and tears, even if, as in WW2, it was felt to be necessary. Because both were real soldiers, volunteers, not conscripts, and because both were intelligent men, neither of them had any time at all for blow hard jingoism, and attempts by third rate politicians to rally young men into wars that were not a product of a real struggle, but the product of ideological crusades and the desire to mobilise sentiment to support the reelection of scoundrels
The political campaign in both the US and to a lesser but still palpable extent here in Australia, to dress up hunting down terrorists, (who when all said and done, employ an oppositional technique that was common in much of 19th century Europe) as the moral and existential equivalence of WW2, is, simply, a disgrace. To dress it up as the new ‘cold war’ is both historically and factually, illiterate. I think that the true meaning of all the guff you describe may be that the politicians and the absurd and sinister ratbags who amplify this rubbish, are searching for a narrative that makes them the heroes, and the rest of us, politicaly immobile.
I, for one, am simply unpersuaded, and I hope for the rest, that the people who are the sons and daughters of the people who actually did the fighting in WW2, as opposed to those who now make money talking and making films about it, will aslo resist this pathetic, dangerous and politicaly illiterate campaign of obfuscation and deceit.
It is vitally impoertant that everyone resist, and the first step in resisting the nonesense is to take a deep breath, and ask yourself, if all this is the moral equivalent of WW2, who is making the sacrifices, and what kinds of sacrificies would be apporpriate in any case? If it is to be the moral equivalent of the cold war, how will we know when we have won?
The author seems to ignore the sham of it all. The “Pearl Harbor” analogy isn’t explored for validity (or for premeditation). As with all 9-11 references, they take the government’s version unquestioned and proceed from that starting point.
I for one, do not believe the government’s story about September 11. I also have a real problem with western intelligence services CREATING THE ENEMY by financing, protecting, training, and arming the most radical Islamic zealots. Then they turn around and claim we are all at risk from their own creations.
We are being played by the men in the shadows. There is abundant evidence for this. In nearly every attack attributed to “al Qaeda” you will find the fingerprints of MI-6, ISI, Mossad and CIA (not to mention others).
The most powerful forces in the world, those that can pull the strings behind the scenes, decided long ago that “terrorism” was the new “communism,” and needed to be coddled and raised to be a seemingly credible threat.
You can see how this plays out in western governments (like congressional “investigations”) when they cover up and do not mention the most important evidence that comes out.
For example, the hands of Pakistani intelligence are all over the 9-11 financing. The head of ISI ordered $100,000 wired to Mohamed Atta, by Omar Saeed Sheikh (a British born “terrorist” with some vague ties to bin Laden and to other Pakistani terror groups in Kashmir).
This financing was exposed by the press. The head of ISI was implicated in the 9-11 attacks. And the only place you hear about this stuff nowadays is from people like me.
The head of ISI resigned immediately after being caught red handed by Indian intelligence in the financing portion of 9-11, but he remains nowhere to be seen on the FBI’s Most Wanted List.
He (Lt. General Mahmoud Ahmad) seems to have never existed if you go by the 9-11 Omission Commission, or the Congressional Joint Inquiry (redacted) report.
This Pakistani ISI financing of 9-11 is my favorite example to trot out, seeing the anniversary and all. But I could easily go through my files, and find 100 more examples of links between terror attacks and western intelligence services. These have come out in mainstream news, and have been corroborated by the news organizations.
Still, most people don’t get it, and perhaps never will.
BRAND NEW 9/11 FILM:
9/11 Press For Truth
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1016720641536424083
Brand new film uses Paul Thompson’s Complete 9/11 Timeline as the spine of this in-depth investigation into 9/11, Al Qaeda, and the cover-up.
This is arguably the best and most comprehensive study of September 11th 2001 available. Send this link to your friends and those skeptical of the “truth movement.”
Today’s Democracy Now has a debate on the movie Loose Change. The problem with the conspiracy theories is that they don’t make sense in that there are too many witnesses. I don’t trust the Bushites but I don’t think they are that smart either.
As I’ve said before, if anything, the administration should have raised an alarm concerning a threat that they were warned about before the attack—- but I can understand why they didn’t. On the other hand not giving a warning can be conceived of as a conspiracy if the motivation was political in nature. We can’t know that one way or another.
We do know that the Bushites used the attack to achieve their ideological/political goals but that is another story. Most all right wingers were very very happy about the attack, especially Jewish right wingers who were gloating that now they can get the USA to go after the ragheads, their enemies.
On the other hand the recent scare about the attack on cross Atlantic planes was clearly politically manipulated and was done very stupidly so that Blair and Bush looked like crooks to anyone but mainstream audiences that where already convinced that they were under attack.
What we have to worry about is the manipulation to start the war against Iran and we need thousands and thousands of people in the streets. PLEASE PLEASE go to a World can’t Wait demonstration near you on October 5th.
worldcantwait.org
Hi Spinoza,
Putting words in Ahmadinejihad’s mouth is a good place to start.
Deliberate mistranslation for Propaganda.
Surprising how many people believe sincerely that IRAN wants to wipe Israel off the map.
Well, understandable more like, because the media barrage on this here in france, and UK, is non-stop. Soundbites around the clock, in most of the newspapers, etc..
You are correct on the Liquid Bomber Scare
A complete farce.
“The problem with the conspiracy theories is that they don
Many people are in serious denial of the fact that the sole culprits behind 9/11 were radical brainwashed Islamic murderers. Some so deeply that they cling to notions of them not being in any way responsible for 9/11.
The movie “Obsession” takes a look into the disturbing world of radical Islam. You can watch/download it now on Google Video.
The “truth” movement would do well to see this movie. After all, they’re always saying they want a complete investigation into who brought down the towers. They might pick out some clues.
——————————————————
Before you incorporate the arguments put forth by the 9/11 “truth” movement into your daily interactions with friends and family, you may want to fact check them first, and consider them in the context of common sense. You will be spared possibly permanent embarrassment if you simply run your revelation du jour through the following before opening your mouth at that party, or sending that email to that friend who still assumes you are sane.—- Natalie
9/11 myths
Debunking 911
Peer reviewed papers debunking the “truth” movement.
(using Steven E. Jones’ standard for peer review) ;-)
Speaking of Jones, in addition to him being put on leave from BYU, it would appear that he has misrepresented photographic evidence in his now world famous “scholarly paper”:
Cooled chunk of molten steel
Cool chunk of pancaked debris
—————————-
16% of people believe in space aliens. 6% believe in bombs and missiles. (Truthies love polls, especially ones they can mis-represent.)
(most of this 6% don’t have more than a high school education and/or live in trailer parks) (not that there’s anything wrong with that—I don’t, and I used to!)
Truthies love videos
(warning…graphic images and coarse language)
——————
Not a single institute of Structural, Civil, Fire and Safety or Demolition Engineers on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory. Not a single institute of Architects on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory. Not a single institute of Engineers in any field on the planet agree with the controlled demolition theory.
Which begs the question— Why do you?
——————
We all know that the select group of incredibly intelligent, talented and brave people, who are capable of designing, building and fighting fires in huge structures such as the World Trade Center Twin Towers, universally agree that a combination of airplane impact damage, heat from fire, and gravity caused their collapse.
However, it should also be noted that another group of highly accomplished people, comprised of those who are capable of safely demolishing such structures, concurs. (120k pdf file)
A condensed and fully customized “NIST Report for Truthies” is now available for truthies that only have trailer court laundry “deposit a quarter for three minutes” dial-up Internet access.
zizo, I’ve had the same opinion as you, there had to be more to the story than the fact that they hate our way of life. Unfortunately it goes much deeper than that the US and a war on Terror. The Muslim leaders have goals that aren’t too hard to find if one looks. They want to destroy Isreal; destroy the US; wreak havok around the world; and convert the everybody to Islam. As silly as this may sound they are serious with these goals. The world has ignored the problem for way too long and has allowed the movement to gain momentum.
The teaching of hate and violence goes so deep into the fabric of their society, it’s questionable whether democracy could ever work there. Maybe a Dictator like Saddam is needed to keep them in line.
With all of the intelligent people in the world I haven’t heard anybody that has a solution. I’m sick of the second guessers, I’d like to hear a plan that makes sense.
“Many people are in serious denial of the fact that the sole culprits behind 9/11 were radical brainwashed Islamic murderers. Some so deeply that they cling to notions of them not being in any way responsible for 9/11.”
There is serious, serious “denial” here, all right.
The loaded term “sole culprits”, is essentially meaningless. The term implies that only the people (allegedly) on the planes were responsible. Not even the government subscribes to this theory. Hence the “war on terrorism” which seeks to go after the OTHER people they claim were involved, the “Al Qaeda network”.
Now, my disingenous friend, we must go more deeply into who exactly this “Al Qaeda network” is, who funds it, who arms it, who trains it, who protects it.
That is quite a large can of worms that you don’t seem capable of addressing in any form whatsoever, since your single minded purpose is to demonize the 9-11 Truth Movement.
Senator Bob Graham has already stated that one or more states were connected to the 9-11 operation. That destroys the “sole culprits” angle. Once a state is involved, we have something quite different than the radical extremsist acting on their own scenario. Covering up the attacks by our own government (including Graham, as he has not named the state(s)) is criminal obstruction of justice, at the least.
India exposed the Pakistani intelligence service ISI as directly funding the Mohamed Atta cell. If you don’t know about this by now, you’re the one living in denial.
Further, numerous Israelis were ARRESTED after the 9-11 attacks, 200 of them. Five were celebrating the destruction of the WTC towers, so outrageously, that the police were called, and those five were arrested and tortured by FBI agents. Of course, they were all quietly released without charge, sent back to Israel and the entire matter made “classified.”
Daniel Hopsicker, investigating the Florida “flight school” has found evidence of a protected drug smuggling ring there. The owners are shady, protected swindlers, who are not prosecuted for having 43 pounds of heroin seized by the DEA on one of their planes. Atta and his cohorts were invoved in the drug smuggling, as witnessed by Atta’s then American girlfriend Amanda Keller.
This is all a very different picture than the “sole culprits” scenario painted by the above poster. These are complex and shady networks, something along the lines of the CIA’s “Air America.”
The zionist and racist rants by another poster, whereby Muslims are inferior and incapable of democratically governing themselves are unworthy of comment.
Crimes of the State
register a new account »Posting Security