Kids are cute. Documentaries confirm this, from the nerdy word-whizzes of Spellbound to the agile dancers of Mad Hot Ballroom. But in the new documentary Jesus Camp, children are terrifying symbols of the Christian Right’s power to indoctrinate, manipulate and control. The film’s creators, Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady, directed another kid-centered chronicle, The Boys of Baraka, which follows a… return to article
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Reader Comments (60)Page 1 of 1 pagesI am a Christian. Let me tell you, this is NOT the Jesus in the Gospels. Never once does he speak of raising arms. I am saddened at those who call themselves Christians and then manipulate Jesus as if He was some kind of puppet.
I am not shocked for Jesus already foretold about the kingdom of God as He said, “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matt. 7:13-14)
Interestingly enough there are a lot more Christians out there who are equally sickened and saddened by what’s been happening in the Christian community.
Thank you for your reporting!
Posted by Neater on Oct 4, 2006 at 8:33 AM These types of bash films are very dangerous. I wonder what an anti-semitic camera crew could come up with if they were allowed in a Hasidic school.
Posted by balanceNeverything on Oct 4, 2006 at 11:36 AM specifically their Jesus-loving spawn?
Now thats brutal. What did the children do to offend the author?
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 5, 2006 at 5:16 PM I am sure this is a sad and cringe-inducing film, even though I have not seen it. I would also go out on a limb here and suggest it hardly represents the majority of Americans who would describe themselves as Christians.
Also, I feel Kaufman’s approach in this article is not just snide, but dishonest. A small camp full of nutballs that would never have been heard of without this stupid film is hardly a menace. I think our republic can weather this, though we should certainly keep tabs on religious fringe groups.
Maybe Mr Kaufman could do some research on, oh I don’t know, the Jewish fanatics that are moving to Israel from Brooklyn, stealing Palestinian land, breeding like bunnies, killing and terrorizing civilians because they have a mandate from G-d and are likely to incite WW III?
Maybe it’s just me, but their camps seem a tad more dangerous.
And for cute totally screwed up kiddies, let’s post those adorable pics just once more of Israeli kids kicking elderly Palestinians and those little dolls writing “To Lebanon with Love” on missiles soon to destroy an entire country.
Yeah, I’m really terrified of those Jesus Camp guys, if only for the fact they support the poeple Kaufman chooses to ignore.
Posted by opeluboy on Oct 5, 2006 at 7:53 PM its not that the makers of the movie are trying to say that these kids are dangerous is in a violent/terrorist way. It is the psychologies behind the kids, and the kids parents, and the community surrounding the camp that are scary. How are children becoming saved at the age of 5?!?! They have harldy developed a sense of self at this point in there life. How could they grasp a concept such as salvation at this age, when they don’t even have a firm hold on the idea of death. This sounds like brainwashing to me. I mean if these kids are acting crazy. Just think of the parents for a moment who think this is ok behaviour. I am not afraid of these kids becoming murderers when they grow up, i am afraid they will grow up and have kids of their own.
Posted by MediaFriend on Oct 5, 2006 at 11:19 PM The parallel between these “Jesus” camps (there are more than one) and the Islamic madrasa that teach extreme views and violence is an obvious one. And, as “opeluboy” says, “I think our republic can weather this.” It is because our country does not YET embrace this kind of extremism that we will hopefully “weather” it.
Who knows, though? If we were under constant terrorist attack as some Muslim countries are, I’m sure these fringe groups’ simple, violent solutions would suddenly appear palatable. And if you keep an ear out for what is said by Pastors John Hagee, James Dobson and other folks who are backing the Bush administration blindly because they don’t think the Democrats are righteous enough, the extremist drip of the Jesus camps is trickling over into the powerful mainstream right wing.
Posted by Mitcherino on Oct 11, 2006 at 8:29 AM Another thing: the author suggests we fight or pack our bags. The fight has to start with intelligence. That means the FBI finds out who is supporting these people (whose leaders suspiciously have too much time on their hands), and the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms bureau of the US Treasury finds out what kinds of weapons and fertilizers they’re caching.
Posted by Mitcherino on Oct 11, 2006 at 8:39 AM Jesus is tragic?
Maybe, but his teachings and example inspire hope and foster compassion between people… to the extent that they’re ever put into practice, that is.
I distinguish here between Yeshua ben Yosef the Nazarene artisan and rabbi, and the “Jesus” of historical Christianity. There may be overlaps between the two, but there are also some pretty glaring distinctions.
As Neater implied above, the idea of the real Jesus being a “Christian soldier, marching as to war” just doesn’t fit.
But as a secular-minded man with a wish that more of people’s thinking was “cerebral” in orientation, I’m unhappy about the practices that foster more visceral/"limbic" ways of thinking, which are very powerful and also easier to control once you gain the trust of the one you’re indoctrinating. They’re also common fare at these camps. Programmed mass chanting and slogan-shouting; formulation of controversial issues in the most black-or-white, emotionally dichotomous phrasing; pushing us-or-them, with-us-or-against-us choices; counseling kids to “have faith” (i.e. trust and obey) rather than to “go get some more information and then think about it"… I find these very disturbing.
For a little background, years ago when I felt an emptiness that I thought would be filled if I found a church-home, I got involved in a youth ministry program that had active branches all over the country. In the end, I didn’t fit in, in large part because I was expected to counsel the youth not to trust (and therefore not to develop) their intellect but instead to “go with their feelings”.
I’ve spent my professional life doing the exact opposite. I also couldn’t stomach the lessons I was expected to teach, that the kids were doomed to eternal torment and damnation if they didn’t “believe” properly.
Some peoples’ God is angry ALL the time.
We held camps too, and they also included a level of indoctrination and promotion of uncritical thinking. It was a bit different because these were high school kids, not quite as vulnerable as younger ones because they were less apt to reflexively obey. Also, the organization I worked with did not have such an overt “cultural warrior” agenda. But the tactics I described above were definitely part of the daily program.
It’s really not difficult to co-opt people’s feelings, and to control their behavior by doing so. Mass movements through history show that, and kids are even more susceptible to that kind of manipulation than you or me, and under the right circumstances even we can be co-opted without too much difficulty.
I’d be curious to know the nutritional profile of the food served and also the amount of sleep and rest afforded to these kids at camp. If they get a high-carb, low-vitamin diet with only a small amount of time to rest, well, I think information like that would speak volumes.
You know where you’ll definitely find those conditions? In Pakistani madrassas. Saw it with my own eyes. Not too conducive to bringing up incisive little minds, but if acceptance of ideology and obedience to authority are your top values, you can find them there. If that’s an unflattering comparison, it’s meant to be.
Posted by Kuya on Oct 11, 2006 at 9:45 PM It is a psychological fact, that children under the age of around 7 years are unable to grasp something as abstract as the concept of god.
I find it terrible, what is done here, with pressure from the group and the parents. It is mere indoctrination - comparable to the talibanschools in the middle east. The children will only repeat after their parents, teachers, priests to be accepted and get the reinforcement.
Nietzsche called this: “Mit Zuckerbrot und Peitsche” - roughly “With Candy and Whip”.It sickens me to see something like this. And I agree with Mediafriend - I am afraid that these children will grow up and have children themselves.
Nic
Posted by admiral346 on Oct 14, 2006 at 4:10 AM People are scripted in certain ways that work for good or ill in their lives. As an evangelical Christian I was brought up in a very strict atmosphere which more or less guided my life throughout my 66 years on planet earth. I can say that I am thankful for some of the scripting that has taken place in my life. God is good . . . all the time. People miss the mark most of the time.
Posted by softscore on Oct 14, 2006 at 5:21 AM Hey Opuleboy,
How you turn any discussion into an excuse to rag on the Jews is beyond me. Do you ever give your anti-semitism a rest? Should only articles on the Israeli occupation be published. Yes, its ok to discuss other things. Do you think because Kaufman is Jewish (and probably has as much to do with Israel as the man in the moon) he is obligated to spend his life doing mea culpas about this damn occupation. The nuts he’s writing about all are Zionists of such fanatical degrees it would cause Sharon to blush. Get off your high horse already and give the rest of us a damn break!!
Having said this I would like to say that I saw the Movie Jesus Camp and found it frightening. I also found the adults in it disgusting. I am also sick and tired of all these Christians who say “they don’t speak for me” and then do and say nothing. At least Papantonio is out there challenging them.
Most Jews who oppose the occupation of Palestine have formed groups and actively oppose it both here and in Israel. They’re highly visible. Where is the US Christian opposition to Clerico-fascism? We need to hear from you. More importantly, the clerico-fascists need to hear from you.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Oct 15, 2006 at 9:54 PM Sorry to bother you with the truth cabdriver, but someone should be keeping this issue in the forefront. I know, like all these highly visible hordes of Jews opposing the occupation of Palestine, you would rather not be reminded about what is really happening there.
If this site weren’t so pathetically silent on this issue, I wouldn’t keep bringing it up. But as long as supremacist Zionists (pardon the redundancy) feel they can pose as liberals and get away with it, I will continue to point out the huge, stinking elephant in the room, and alert others to its gigantic, fly-covered droppings littering our floor.
No offense.
Posted by opeluboy on Oct 17, 2006 at 5:46 PM One more thing. Sharon won’t be blushing about anything ever again, if he ever did.
Posted by opeluboy on Oct 17, 2006 at 5:48 PM “Supremicist Zionist”? Is that anyone who doesn’t obsess about the Israeli Occupation of Palestine 24/7?
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Oct 17, 2006 at 6:01 PM Considering it is the number one cause of Mid East violence, the number one reason we are hated by Muslims/Arabs worldwide, the powder keg that is likely to ignite WW III, and a situation that has cost American taxpayers trillions, I would consider it an issue worth obsessing over. But that’s just me. And 99% of the rest of the world (who are, of course, ALL anti-Semites).
Posted by opeluboy on Oct 17, 2006 at 8:10 PM Oh yes, cabdriver, while we’re at it, don’t YOU ever get tired of whining “anti-Semitism” every time someone expresses their opposition to Zionism or Israeli thuggery? You should read more. Try some of these Jewish peace activists you claim are in abundance. The few out there will also explain that being opposed to Zionism is not anti-Semitism. but don’t let reason stop you. It never stopped Alan Dershowitz, did it?
Posted by opeluboy on Oct 17, 2006 at 8:34 PM I didn’t call you anti-semitic for criticizing Israel. Those who know me and have read my published work in Marxist journals know I hate Zionism and have made far reaching critiques of the Zionist ideology, state, and occupation. I just don’t believe in ackwardly and inappropriately bringing it up for discussion at every turn purely in order to stigmatize all Jews. This is ignorant and prejudiced.
Furthermore, the State of Israel has cost the US taxpayer to date just over $100 billion. Most people support a two state solution to the crisis and don’t hate Israel or blame it for all the world’s ills. Many people believe we should either be even handed or not take sides at all. Polls show that even now most or a plurality of people believe both sides share equal blame for the cycles of violence and the intractability of the current crisis. Some advocate withholding aid to get Israel to the peace table. Very few advocate abolishing the state of Israel. BTW, have you ever pondered the consequences of the defeat of Israel? Would the Palestinians get a state or would most of Palestine be swallowed up by its Arab State neighbors? Read some of the revisionist histories of the 1948 Israel/Palestine conflict. You’ll see how Syrian, Egypt, and Jordan all attempted to exercise territorial claims to Palestine and militarily fought one another in the first war. This explained the 1948 Israeli victory. This is now accepted by most scholars of the period both in and out of Israel. Quite a telling and an interesting point. It historicizes the current conflict in terms of Israel’s early political experiences with divide and rule tactics. Israel’s ongoing intransigence is rooted in these tactics down to the very present. They have conditioned Israel to avoid a comprehensive peace in her pursuit of ongoing colonization. Of course, US support perpetuates this practice. Had the 1948 War been fought with total Arab unity an Israeli victory would have been far more costly and a lasting peace achieved much sooner. I hate to say it but until now the cost of military conflict has been to LOW for Israel to seek a genuine peace.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Oct 18, 2006 at 12:29 AM Cabdriver, the “trillions” I referred to are not simply describing the “loans” we have given Israel, but what they have cost us in other ways. Here is one article from CSM explaining some of that:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html
While I agree with most of your statements in this recent post, I stand by mine as well. There is no issue more important to solve immediately than Israel/Palestine. American Jews have been either silent on this issue or supportive of the brutality and illegality. Most Israeli Jews support whatever violence and criminality their government decides upon (just read responses over at Ha’aretz). Remember, Sharon won in a landslide, while already considered a war criminal around the globe. I heard almost no Jewish voices condemn the needless, inhumane destruction of the finally rebounding Lebanon. I did hear shouts of support for this war crime.
But let’s say I’m wrong about all this. Jews are not really monolithic in their uncritical support of their personal Valhalla. They really are for a two-state solution, for Palestinian human rights and an end to the occupation and believe, like the rest of us, that law and conventions aplly to them equally. It’s only the right-wing American Likudniks that have leverage in the ADL and other Jewish organizations that support whatever new crime Israel commits. It is only these types that coerce our government into winking at their intransigence, and only on their behalf our politicians, Dem and Rep, journey so frequently to that state to kow tow to their thuggish leaders.
So please prove me wrong. Name 3 well-known (and currently working) Jewish celebrities who have jeopardized their careers by advocating Palestinian human rights. Okay, two. Tell me the last time you saw Uri Avnery on TV. One time the Daily Show was critical of Israel. One time Jon Stewart showed anything resembling pity for a Muslim or Arab. One Jewish organization that fought to have My Name is Rachel Corrie on stage in NYC. Help me out here.
I am not stupid, and certainly do realize there are many Jews both in America and Israel that share my views and concerns, and express those feeling with an eloquence and passion that is awe-inspiring. I know this because I am in constant contact with B’tselem, Jewish Voice for Peace, Gush Shalom and other groups and individuals on both sides of the issue.
But I know these are minorities. When Streisand or Stewart or Allen or some other American Jew at the top of the heap joins in and risks his/her reputation/career by championing human rights for Palestinians and an end to the universally condemned occupation, I will be ready to back off, concede all your points and offer an unequivocal apology.
Posted by opeluboy on Oct 18, 2006 at 4:38 PM If Palestinians wanted peace they would stop the sucide bombings, rocket attacks, and sniper fire. Until then they will live in squalor and ignorance. Their leaders have pocketed billions of dollars in aid and bought weapons.Israel has become the ultimate scapegoat for any Islamic leader. Leftists began the anti- semitic rants after the 1967 war. The Soviets were angry that their new military equipment could not stop the inevitable defeat of the Arab armies. So Moscow began condemming ZIonism. Remember the UN passed the resolution equating Zionism with racism. What the hell is ZIonism anyway?
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 18, 2006 at 5:53 PM Real words of wisdom from Texas. Is that you W?
See folks, yet another amoral Zionist posing as a liberal. Revisionism like that would make you angry I’d bet if it had to do with the Holocaust.
See why I stay on this subject cabdriver?
Posted by opeluboy on Oct 18, 2006 at 6:09 PM You equate the Texan with me. The Texan is not a liberal just a Zionist. From the sound of things he is not at all critical of the status quo. He probably likes Bush & Co. as well. My comments above were quite informative and critical of Israel in a credible and serious manner. Do this mean I’m evil and not to be taken seriously as a true leftist?
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Oct 19, 2006 at 12:48 AM Wow, now look where this discussion is going…
I believe, that what is enraging some people here, including me, is not Zionism or the fundamental Christians themselves, it is absolutism. Whenever any religion (or philosophy) institutionalizes and claims to hold an absolute truth, somebody gets oppressed. It is by the simple fact, that there is no absolute truth, no matter how much Katholics, Zionist Jews, American Fundamentalist Evangelicals or Taliban believe there is. It is always relative to your position.
Just the same: The person thought to be a terrorist from one side, is the freedomfighter from the other side…Nic
edit: typo
Posted by admiral346 on Oct 19, 2006 at 2:25 AM Agreed, cabdriver, and was not equating stupid texan with you. I was pointing out that you will see much of the same comments by Zionists who truly do believe they are liberals. Their liberality stops at Israel.
Posted by opeluboy on Oct 19, 2006 at 2:41 PM What the hell is Zionism and why is it bad......No one has ever offered a clear definition....... I have a centerist view on this subject. Logic dictates that if a solution to a problem has not worked after almost sixty years of trying, you must try a different solution.The solution Palestine has chosen is glaringly obvious every time you turn on the news. If the targets of sucide bombers were military perhaps my opinion would change. But the direct targeting of civilians is not an effective military solution. The situation has to change for both sides.
I would like to ask why the religious views of others “enrage” you? I find it odd that intellectual, liberal, progessive people are concerned with what other people think, believe, or practice. And write volumous articles to warn others of the dangers of someones beliefs. Its almost as bad as the gay marriage fiasco. I expect Republicans to force their views on the populace but the Left has become just as bad.
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 19, 2006 at 9:56 PM Zionism is a complex topic but to explain briefly it began as a secular political movement in Europe of Jews who wished to settle in Palestine less for religious reasons than as a nation with its own culture and language (Hebrew) wishing to establish a modern sovereign state. In a real sense Zionism is a Christian ideology because of Christian biblican endtimes prophesies about Jews returning to their ancient patrimony in Israel. Jews don’t share this distinctly religious belief because only the Messiah’s will can establish renew the Jewish control of Israel not human secular political movements. Religious anti-Zionism is based on this Talmudic belief. Secular Leftist anti-Zionism is based on the belief that Zionism is a form of Western Colonialism and oppressive to the Palestinian Arabs. Most people support a two state solution including the US State Department. The current right-wing Israeli government opposes it and rules Palestine through a combination of military occupation and Israeli settlement of expropriated Arab lands. This is why Israel is being universally condemned. This is also the basis of Palestinian resistance and violence toward the State of Israel today.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Oct 19, 2006 at 10:21 PM For an excellent appraisal of Zionism, read Michael Neumann’s The Case Against Israel. Comprised entirely of data and info from exclusively Jewish sources (in other words, no Arab viewpoints) it is a landmark dissection of this movement, delving beneath the mythology and propaganda.
Posted by opeluboy on Oct 20, 2006 at 5:53 PM I’ve read many such books which are based on purely Jewish sources like Benny Morris’s The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem and found them to be excellent. Morris’s political volte face in late 2000, which was a reaction to the Al Aqsa Intifada and the suicide bombings, did not affect his research on pre-1967 Israel and the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians both in war and peace during this time. He continues to uncover military and government documents through Israel’s Freedom of Information statute that reveal massacres, expulsions, and expropriations in this period. One of the reasons that most of the sources are Jewish is because the Israelis kept extensive records and made them accessable. It is difficult to access Arab State archives and when one does they are limited in time and scope of access. Israel for all its faults is a far more open society. No one disputes this fact! Another source are UN documents which were used extensively in a two volume work called The Palestinian Catastrophy by Michael Palumbo. Both Morris and Palumbo give us excellent and highly detailed accounts of the nature and extent of Haganah massacres and expulsions of Palestinians in the 1948 War though they frequently disagree with each other on interpretation.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Oct 20, 2006 at 11:38 PM You see, the thing is that every religion has it’s fanatics. Good and Evil live inside of every human. It is up to us, which one we allow to be the key focus of our soul.
Every religion has its skelotons in the closet. Every religion has its people who do crazed things in the name of God, by what ever name they call It. However, no religion should be defined by what sociopathic and possibly psychotic people do in the name of that religion.
Every religion also has its “saints”, those who by the standards of their religion live as closley to those teachings as humanly possible. Those who are praised long after they are gone. Those who it is hard to find fault in, even by those of other religions.
Every religion has its prophets, and its “false prophets” alike. Those who claim to know what is going to happen, who claim to be able to explain what has happened. Those who claim to either be of God, or who claim to be conduits for God to speak through.
When the true meaning of religion becomes misconstrued into a cause to lie down your own life, or some body elses life for, that is extremism and fanatisism. That is not God, that is dillusional schizophrenia.
Posted by twilightrose on Oct 25, 2006 at 6:51 AM Aaaaah......the duplicitious , dysfuntionality of the Amerikan psyche......
This is child abuse....psychological child abuse....
If this were happening in a Mosque....all would be up in arms…
But because it’s a so-called Christian thing...people want to look the other way.....
Religion...all religions....especially when taken to these extremes are an intrusion to all forms of rational or logic based thought patterns......
If one wishes to know the heavens , study Astro-Physics....
Don’t lie to these children , turning them into perpetual dummies…
In some cases..for life..
In the final analysis , one would have too question the judgement of these childrens parents , in allowing this indoctrination......
Very similar to how pedophile priest...found their victims....
Additionally..we all know TexasIndependent is an idiot...hey Tex...still eatin’ those mountain oysters...eeh.....
If anbody here is a dillusional schizo-psychopath ; Tex , gets my vote....
cabdriver and opeluboy , you are both correct...although cabdriver...opeluboy does have the right too push his agenda....
Personally I rarely pass up an opportunity to kick the religious fanatics...regardless of affiliation...quite appropriate for this venue....
Redhorse doesn’t know why there is an argument...except for the fact that opeluboy get on the cabdrivers nerves....
Gentlemen focus on the real problem here.....
Which is the stupidity of the adults involved in this abuse.....
The use of fear and hate...to teach love and tolerance....
This will result in the children developing an extremely damaging schizophenic thought process....
How or can a community regulate this type of insidious behavior.......?
One would guess the ol’ saying is hopefully true....” Your friends , are Gods way of making up for your family....”
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 1, 2006 at 4:46 AM First I was glad to finally learn that any ignorant racist statement can be made politically correct by simply substituting the word “ZIONIST”. As in those damm lazy ZIONISTS live in ghettos, play basketball, eat fried chicken, draw welfare, and spawn little ZIONISTS. Thanks opeluboy!
.
Religion and faith are two seperate topics. It is common to have one and lack the other. Faith transcends all religions and is a universal human trait.
How or can a community regulate this type of insidious behavior.......?
Repeal the First Amendment?
Posted by texasindependent on Nov 2, 2006 at 7:01 PM ....There are two things which I have come to look upon as constituting the unpardonable sin of the father and mother against the helpless innocence of infancy. The one is in allowing their little children to run the risk of blood-poisoning-such as was once suffered by a child of mine-from the filthy fraud of vaccination. The other is in permitting the mind and soul of their children to be inoculated with the still more fatal virus of the old, false, orthodox dogmas and delusions, by allowing them to believe that the fables of ancient mythology are the sacred and solely true “ Word of God, “if they are found in the Hebrew Scriptures-the one book of the religiously ignorant. Generation after generation we learn , unlearn, and relearn the same lying, legendary lore, and it takes the latter half of all one’s lifetime to throw off the mass of corrupting error instilled into us during the early half , even when we do break out and slough it off in a mental eruption, and have to find ourselves in utter rebellion against things as they are. Unfortunately, the mass of people never do get rid of this infection, nor of the desire to give their disease to others....
The fact of the matter is, the Christian dogmas and doctrines began as such with being unintelligible and inexplicable; they were to remain as mysteries ; and any true explanation of them is death to their false pretentions. It is my method to explode by explaining them. Take the doctrine of the Trinity for example. Can any theologian throughout all Christendom to-day give us any intelligible account of its origin and primary meaning ? Not one . For that we must go to mythology, which was earlier than our theology, and which alone enables us to explain its primitive mysteries. The natural genesis of the Trinity was found, and is to be refound, in lunar phenomena. The moon, in mythology and chronology, was a time-measurer of a three-fold nature. At fifteen days of age, or full-moon, it was the mother-moon. Hence Ishtar, in Akkad, is disignated Goddess 15. The lessening , waning moon was her little one, the child of the moon, who became the virile one, the adult, as the horned new moon, the reproducer who was fabled to rebeget himself on the mother moon, and thus become his own father, as a natural mode of describing natural phenomena.....As much as Redhorse would love to claim authorship of these words...alas , it is not to be so… These are the first two paragraphs of chapter six....” The Devil of Darkness in the Light of Evolution “...from the book Gerald Masseys Lectures....
I thought twilightrose , you would find these words inspirational and enlightening.............
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 3, 2006 at 6:08 PM Secondly Tex....for one that just now found out what “ Zionism “ is about…
You sure catch on quick....It’s almost like you are one.....
The old saying once was...Zionism is Racism is Fascism....
Now based off of what the Redhorse has read of your denunciations of everything that is foriegn to your enviroment…
Imagine how one would feel....when confronted with the factual reality of the Tex’s xenogenetic spawn on humanity....
The rest of us, understand where the hell you came from...and are quite clear about your psychosis....
But yu don’t get it…
Do yu................
Redhorse owns a t-shirt that states....” Homeland Security...fighting terrorism sense 1492....” ; above the caption is a picture of 4 native amerikans holding their rifles....
They’re looking for folks like you.....tex.
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 3, 2006 at 7:16 PM Indians can’t shoot....The whiskey throws their aim off.
TexasIndependent owns a tshirt that states “Peace through superior firepower.”
Arab nationalism is acceptable. Jewish nationalism is evil. How very logical.
Xenogenetic spawn would refer to alien dna. Perhaps your friends in the flying saucers could explain the fine points of organic chemistry to you.
Xenophobic would be the term you were aiming for. As my parents are from Chiapas Mexico and my wife is Irish that would be very difficult.
Posted by texasindependent on Nov 3, 2006 at 9:33 PM Tex,
You must understand that no one likes Israel much these days. The final death toll in Lebanon is officially 1,400 which is high given Lebanon’s four million people. There were over a million refugees. The destruction was vast. The country will take years to recover fully. Meanwhile the offensive against the Palestinians is unrelenting. Gaza is under siege once again and the West Bank is being expropriated as we speak. Israel’s occupation has been oppressive for to long. Its time for a change.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Nov 4, 2006 at 1:25 AM No Tex...Redhorse meant xenogenetic: The supposed production of offspring markedly different from and showing no relationship to either of the parents....
Redhorse was applying the term from an evolutionary perspective....
Now I am qiute sure that Tex is also xenophobic...and apparently, very proud of that fact.....
Zionism is not “ Jewish Nationalism “.......it’s an ultra-imperialist form of fascist based nationalism that requires the adherents to follow and believe dogmatisms that state they are the chosen people of God… therefore the criminal invasion of other sovereign nations and the violation of international peace agreements is their individual God given right…
They( Israel) are also a welfare state..because they don’t produce anything , all their money comes from your taxes...billions every year....
Israel produces nothing but Guns...Pain...and Misery....for itself and her neighbors…
Hey ...but being a mutant , misinformed , pustulated psychotic; Redhorse is sure Tex would be right at home....
It also is interesting that you would referr to the native population in disparaging terms..being that Tex says his parents are indigenous Mexicans....
Who do you think they are....?
One would also guess that Tex suffers from an “ identity crisis”...disorder....
Hating oneself is not good for ones self esteem...Tex.
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 4, 2006 at 7:07 AM Redhorse,
Israel, (the proper spelling), is guilty of plenty of wrongdoing without making up crap that is wrong and silly. First of all, Israel’s GDP is over $150 billion at this point making foreign aid less than 4% of her economy. Foreign direct investment continues to be significant and most of it is US based. FDI accounts for between a fifth and a quarter of Israel’s gross fixed capital formation according to UN Trade and Development studies. Israel has always had a large domestic manufacturing base which exceeds the US’s as a proportion of GDP. Like the US, Israel is outsourcing much of her manufacturing abroad mostly to Arab States which of course was the real reason for the Oslo peace process. Israel manufactures weapons but also, clothing, food, beverages, consumer electronics, medical products, software (probably the leading manufacturer in the world of IT products which began over ten years ago with spin off from Intel direct investment in Israel), and building materials like cement and related items. At one time Israel’s economy was autarchic but is now highly globalized both in terms of trade and investment. In fact Israel has about 669 domestic companies that trade on the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange. Their combined market capitalization is over $75 billion or about 40% of Israel’s GDP. Another 90 high tech Israeli companies which trade exclusively on the NASDEQ are capitalized at a similar amount making the globalized sector of Israel’s publicly traded economy only 15% of the companies with about half the total Israeli market capitalization. Far from an autarchic welfare state, Israel is a highly globalized capitalist economy which is quickly becoming an adjunct of US corporate capital. High tech soft ware firms and medical tech firms like Bio-logic in the Chicago area are only a few examples. The globalization of Israeli capitalism was a huge part of the Oslo logic. Colonizing Palestinian labor for light industrial production is another aspect which explains the Wall and the occupation strategy. Israel already has shifted garment assembly manufacturing investment to Jordan with hopes of doing so in Egypt. Much of this is linked to US occupation and economic strategy in Iraq. Cheney’s daughter Liz who has a big mid east desk position at the US State Department is a big advocate of free trade zones, privatization of state owned enterprises, removal of agricultural tariffs, capital controls, and profit remittance restrictions, and overall foreign investment liberalization in the Middle East. A coincidence?
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Nov 4, 2006 at 1:04 PM Cabdrver...Thanks for the spell check...my dyslexia gets the better of me from time to time....
Redhorse does not dispute your facts on the economy of Israel…
My point is that...the nation is an artificial transplant in the region...placed there as a strategic measure too bolster the former regime of apartied South Afrika....additionally, the larger interest of the Global Industrial Military Complex.......
All 3 religions...Christianity, Islam, Judaism have been guilty in the under-development of Afrika…
I have no favorites , if not for the spread of Islam across the continent of Afrika...creating the turmoil that led too the eastern slave trade...centuries before the christians got in the game, thus weakening the continent sufficiently ; allowing for the western slave trade....
Darfur....the base of this tragic state of affairs is religion( Islams imposition on southern Sudan..and of course as always money and resources.....)
Redhorse has no favorites....! !
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 4, 2006 at 1:35 PM Israel is also an engine of globalization. This is connected with the war in Iraq. I’m researching into this issue. Outside of oil, the Middle East has the lowest rate of foreign direct investment inflows and the highest proportion of state owned enterprises of any region in the world. Bush sees the US position as the world’s only superpower to reverse this trend!! He is seeking greater profit on a long term basis for US firms. He also seeks to improve the global structural position of US capital vis a vis the Middle East. This will ensure US hegemony. It will also give the US a unique position of power in a highly strategic region.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Nov 4, 2006 at 7:56 PM Redhorse you pompous windbag. Our ancestry is native to Siberia not America. They crossed the Bering Strait around 12000 years ago thus becoming the first brutal neo con invaders and killing off the Pre Siberian American Aborigines who inhabited most of the Americas long before our people arrived.
My ancestry is Tzotziles descendants of the Maya. I have pride in my ancestry but don’t use it as a club as you seem to do. You seem to have deep seated psychiatric issues with the world in general were you not hugged enough as a small child?
Israel seems to give Lefties a hard on. Personally I don’t really care. I have had business dealings with several Israeli companies and found them to be honest, hard working, and very friendly. If Palestinians would stop blowing themselves up long enough to form a company I would be happy to deal with them as well.
I stand by my original premise...Arabs are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. How very peaceful and progressive.
Posted by texasindependent on Nov 4, 2006 at 8:45 PM Tex you pompous jack of asses....
The Bering Strait was the gateway for all early inhabitants...nothing to differentiate the Tex from any other indigenous member of this continent...your clan affiliation is of little concern…
Nobody was native to Siberia at that epic in history...it was a land bridge…
Now you maybe proud of your heritage...but seem confused about who they were....If they...as you stated ...killed off the pre-siberian aborigines....that makes no sense…
Either you are as I posted earlier a member of the native population ,sense as you posted , all the earlier inhabitants were killed off by your ancestors or yu are an amalgamation of all of these folks, sense everybody that came to this continent in that epic...came across the Bering Straits....
There are no,as posted by yourself ; “ pre-siberian aborigines “...ever hear of monogenism , Tex…
Further to refer to them as neo-cons is a total fallacy...you’re just making shit up...your current political confusion has nothing to do with that period in history....
Additionally....Zionism is the point of contention , not some individual Israeli...yu don’t listen or read to well do yu...Tex…
Your generalizations are pure racist hype…
I bet you couldn’t tell the difference between an Arab and a Jew , if your life depended on it…
You are a fool , Tex…
Funny that yu would compare the Redhorse to a psycho...when you are the one making all the generalized pathos based references…
By the way bro-man, all of Mayan civilization was heavily influenced by Afrikan culture....check it out ,
Again hating oneself is not good for the self-esteem....Tex.
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 5, 2006 at 6:47 AM Is anyone else disturbed by the fact that Redhorse refers to him/herself in the third person?
Posted by dgrins on Nov 5, 2006 at 9:45 AM dgrins....Why should that bother you , Redhorse would like to know....?
Care to comment on the tragic indoctrination of the poor unfotunate children of the religiously daft....?
Or possibly , the delusional rhetoric of Tex...and his xenophobically motivated psychosis.....?
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 5, 2006 at 11:43 AM Red Pony
If you bothered to read more than Marx you would be aware of this
Pre Siberian American Aborigines were the original inhabitants of the Americas when the “Indians” landed on their Plymouth Rock. Here is one link.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/430944.stm
“Indian” DNA is Siberian/Mongolian in origin.
“Zionism” is a term used by Leftist wannabes to hide racism behind a politically correct facade. If you substitute “filthy Jew” for the word zionism in all these postings the truth comes to the surface.
To differentiate between a Israeli and an Arab is easy Red Pony. Simply draw a cartoon of Mohammed and whoever tries to kill you is an Arab.
The fact the RedGelding refers to himself in the third person is disconcerting. It seems to be rooted in his Africa/child molestation/ religious hatred fixation. I blame Zionism for his condition.
Posted by texasindependent on Nov 5, 2006 at 4:03 PM Damn Tex....Redhorse must have pushed your buttons.....
You’re a real asshole.....eeh..
.As for your history link...Redhorse will check it out.....
Now all that other crap you wrote....your terminology is all fucked up...Tex…
Don’t get so angry when you are trying to insult the Horse , maybe you’ll be more effective....
Oh...and by the way...Fuck You , and all your Self-Hating , RedNeck Wannabe , Genocidal BullShit.................ok.
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 5, 2006 at 4:54 PM No thanks Red Pony I am boringly hetrosexual. Thanks for the offer anyway.
Posted by texasindependent on Nov 5, 2006 at 11:14 PM Yo Tex,
You’re awful sympathetic to Israel and the Jews to be a REAL TEXAN. Are you? Maybe its that Old Testiment Protestantism that equates the Israelites entering Caanan with the American settlers coming to the New World that garners unlikely sympathies with the Jews and their cause. The Exodus Narrative is a powerful one and one that has lasted through the ages. Zionism, BTW, is not a term of derision. It was a movement officially begun in Basil, Switzerland in 1897 which pursued a Jewish homeland in Palestine in order to create a sovereign state there for the Jewish People. It has been marred by the current IDF occupation of Arab lands.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Nov 6, 2006 at 3:02 AM “ No thanks Red Pony I am boringly hetrosexual. Thanks for the offer anyway. “
Tex....what the hell are yu talking about...?
Did yu read my post....?
I didn’t ask yu about your personal preference…
BORINGLY HETROSEXUAL....dude , I don’t care about your sex life…
If you’re bored with women , that’s on yu…
Redhorse is not so sure about yu Tex....
Sounds like yu might be a little...say..Broke-Back Mountain.....eeh.?
I’m gonna start calling yu....Tex the Tagger...or maybe just plain ol’...TexasTagger....
Somebody tells yu to fuck off.....and TexasTagger thinks...............bong.! ! !
No Boy Scout Jamboree for yu pal.....
Boringly Hetrosexual....?
Now that is Hysterical.....................................
Does your wifey know...yu know...about yu being bored with her...?
Dude...thats some personal shit....
Yu shouldn,t tell folks...especially folks like me...yu know, that yu don’t particularly get along with...yu know...your personal shit...about your wifey and such...making yu bored with being a....HETROSEXUAL....
Folks could take info like that ....and yu know , like...make jokes and shit.......
Can I have your wifes number...?
I can’t do anything about your boredom....
But maybe the Horse, can help your wifey out...if your bored...she must be too....
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 6, 2006 at 6:16 PM Cabbie
I like Israel. Not religious and a native Texan. Texas and Israel have a lot in common. I agree with you to a point. The siuation as it stands today is untenable. Something has to change. But the governent of Israel has the duty to defend its citizens as all governments do. If the Palestinians were attacking the IDF I would agree with you completely. Military targets are legitimate. The direct targeting of civilians is not legitimate and should be condemmned.Can you explain the issue of 1948 maps vs the gains from the 1967 war? I thought the Siani handover settled that issue?
Posted by texasindependent on Nov 8, 2006 at 6:26 PM The UN voted to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab states in November 1947. The British Army still occupied the country and its mandate would expire in May 1948 when Israel declared its independance. Though the Jews were only 30% of the entire population of Palestine, Israel received about 55% of the entire area of British Mandatory Palestine including the eastern Gallilee, the entire Negev in the south, and a narrow strip along the coast from just north of Tel Aviv down to present day Ashkelon just north of Gaza. It escalated a war with the two Palestinian militias, including one led by a Syrian named Fawzi al Quakji who was supplied by the League of Arab States. By May 1948, about 250,000 Palestinians were expelled and the Haganah had captured almost all the remaining 20% of pre-1967 Israel it would take by the time of the July 1949 Armistice with Syria.
In 1967, a war in the first week of June put Israel in control of the remaining quarter of the country. This resulted in the expulsion of another 300,000 Palestinians expelled to add to the 750,000 already expelled from the first war. The more than one million expellees would live chiefly in Refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan and in the Occupied Territories. This situation changed over time. Presently there are almost 9 million Palestinians over four million of whom live in Israel/Palestine. The refugee issue remains an obsticle to peace today.
The capture of the Sinai Peninsula which belonged to Egypt was returned as part of the Camp David Accords signed in 1979 between Egypt and Israel. The Golan Heights remain in Israel’s hands pending a similar peace agreement with Syria. The Occupied West Bank and Gaza are still occupied by the IDF following the collapse of the Oslo Peace Agreement after the Second Intifada of 2000. The IDF and the Israeli government are following a policy of unilateral determination of the political future of these areas with no schedualled peace talks in the offing.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Nov 9, 2006 at 2:41 AM Very balanced thank you. I would ask you the question left by the original UN Resolution (GA 181). This would have in effect left the Jewish areas of Israel divided into three seperate pieces with Arab controlled areas connected. Do you understand the logic behind Arabs refusing this resolution that carried both the United States and the Soviet Union’s approval?
Posted by texasindependent on Nov 9, 2006 at 6:57 PM If you mean the original partition resolution then yes I understand Arab opposition. They saw themselves as the 70% majority in Palestine and resented the Jews being given 55% of the country with the majority of the arable land. Even in the partitioned Jewish state the Jews were barely a majority. The Palestinians allowed many Jews into Palestine during the Holocaust and many gave them assistance and support. Proportionately Palestine took more Jewish refugees from Europe than any other country including the US and the UK. Now the Palestinian Arabs were being asked to basically hand over their country for crimes they didn’t commit after having helped during this period. It didn’t go and war resulted. The Palestinians lost much. In the words of progressive Jewish journalist I.F.Stone, “The Palestinians were forced to pay for the crimes of Europeans.”
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Nov 9, 2006 at 7:59 PM Ok I follow the logic but Palestine was a British Protecterate until 1948 not a country. The issue was greed on the Arab side. Newly independent Jordan, Syria and Egypt all had designs on acquiring Palestine. The actual residents of Palestine had no real say in how the territory was divided up.
The archeological record indicates that the Jewish people evolved out of native Cana’anite peoples and invading tribes. Some time between about 1800 and 1500 B.C., it is thought that a Semitic people called Hebrews (hapiru) left Mesopotamia and settled in Canaan. Canaan was settled by different tribes including Semitic peoples, Hittites, and later Philistines, peoples of the sea who are thought to have arrived from Mycenae, or to be part of the ancient Greek peoples that also settled Mycenae.
So if I follow this correctly Jews are originally Iraqis and invaded “ Palestine’ in the early Bronze Age. So my question would be when did the “Modern” Palestinians arrive in Israel?
Posted by texasindependent on Nov 10, 2006 at 7:59 PM Your claim that many of the neighboring Arab states, particularly Jordan, had designs on the Palestinian state and fought over pieces of it in 1948 is part of the historic record. Mainstream historians like Dan Kurzman in his exhaustive and excellent “Genesis 1948” and revisionist historian Avi Schlaim’s “Collusion Across the Jordan” document this fact.
Israel became Palestine after the Arab invasion in the late seventh century. In 680AD the Al Aksa Mosque was built and the Muslims remained in control under various Calliphs until the Turks in 1517. They ruled with the Calliphate in Constantinople until the British took over in 1917 during WWI. With the British withdrawl in 1948 Israel became a sovereign state and in 1967 another war resulted in Jewish control of all of modern Palestine. All of Palestine remains occupied today pending a final status peace agreement. There are currently no schedualled talks to resolve the final status of Palestine and the armed conflict continues today.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Nov 11, 2006 at 10:03 PM The troubles in modern Israel/Palestine have roots in so many different places. You could examine the Nazi/ Arab nationalism movement during WWII and its Anti Semitism that coincided with Koranic teachings. You can examine archeological finds that document the Persian conquest of Jerusalem and the First Diaspora. You can examine Zionism. The Holocaust. But the problem remains.
Can Zionism be considered a crime worthy of destruction? Any reasonable person can Google hundreds of speeches by “moderate”, secular Islamic leaders who call for the destruction of Israel. This bothers me. I could not find a single quote where any Israeli called for the destruction of Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, or any other Muslim country. Does this excuse Israeli behavior? No of course not.
I found evidence in the UN archives dealing with the original resolution was passed overwhelmingly in the General Assembly divided the British Mandate into three Jewish sections and one large connected Palestinan/ Arab sections. Jerusalem would be placed under UN control and demilitarized. The unofficial Jewish government agreed. The objections were from Jordan, and Egypt.
The amount of land which side recieved is hardly worth the hundreds of thousands of lives lost in the past 58 years. Think of the trillions of dollars spent by all countries in arming, fighting, and hauling off the scraps. I doubt any solution other than the destruction of Israel will pacify the Arab world. Israel is a useful tool to mainstream the Islamic goal of the Caliphate and the return of the Mahdi.
Has any Leftist author examined this phenomena?
I find the whole picture is very hard to get.
Posted by texasindependent on Nov 11, 2006 at 10:58 PM The origins of the Zionist movement are controversial and complex. What has virtual unanamous agreeement is that the Nazi Holocaust of Jews in Europe enabled the coming into being of the modern state of Israel. Zionism as a movement is Christian in origin. Jews have always accepted the Talmud’s interpretation of the Old Testiment prohibition of the secular establishment of a sovereign state for the Jews in Palestine. Such a state must only be brought by the Moshiach (Jewish Messiah). Christianity holds that Jewish control of Israel and its ancient biblical lands by Jews is a precondition for the return of Jesus and Armageddon. Zionism is Christian. If you notice there are NO Jewish Synagogues with Zion in the name but many Protestant Churches. The only reasonable answer to the crisis which is currently taking the lives of thousands is an end to the current Israeli occupation of Palestine and the establishment a viable Palestinian state.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Nov 11, 2006 at 11:53 PM I have so enjoyed reading all your comments, you are very knowledgable people. It seems to be, however, you are all more interested in showing off your specific knowledge than really coming to any kind of common ground. Very vitriolic in here and the racism is pretty thick, unfortunately it’s politically correct racism so no one calls you on it. I just noticed the note on the side reading “Please be respectful in your comments and try to remain on-topic.” I think you all may need to re-read this instruction. The topic was a movie about a Christian camp and you all have reduced the conversation to name-calling and anti-semitism. I would put forth the idea that this movie was made by people who had a preconceived conclusion going in and found some people to fit their idea. Have these people killed anyone? Have they armed anyone? Are they specifically instructing their followers to kill themselves or others? The truth is Christianity and the teachings of Jesus Christ are/were all about life and love and forgiveness. God can judge we can NOT, we are ONLY to love our brother as ourselves and everyone is our brother. That is the basis of Christianity. Apparently these “Jesus camp” are off-base and they need to be exposed, however, to compare them to Islamic suicide-bombers who school their youngsters to kill (they don’t imply, they are very specific) is an extreme exaggeration and a transparent attempt at moral equivalence that is worn out.
Posted by historyteacher on Nov 21, 2006 at 5:25 PM History Teacher,
I had a hard time understanding what you were saying. Are you saying that the makers of the movie were unfairly critical of the subjects they portrayed? They only rolled the cameras and let the people they filmed do their thing. Why is that unfair? It is interesting to note that both the rightist proponents of Christian Fundamentalism and the leftist opponents of it both thought the movie made THEIR point!! This is the sign of a truely NEUTRAL film. The fact that some Christians found the portrayals of the Fundamentalists objectionable is testimony to the actual objectionability of the Fundamentalists!!
No one accused the people in the film of anti-semitism. Certainly not the Jews. One of the filmakers is a Jewish women.
The real concern here is the violent and anti-democratic potential of US Christian fanaticism. That it is not based on reason is obvious. No, these folks haven’t killed anyone but they would not shrink from it and they are being taught not to shrink from it. Their real value to the fanatical right is not immediately military but political. It is to spread support for an agenda that the working and middle class would not otherwise see a point in supporting. The violence aspect comes in garnering support for militarism which will serve as the basis of much future US foreign policy.
Incidentally , there is no such thing as Political Correctness and I fail to see the role of racism in this particularly religious subject.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Nov 22, 2006 at 3:33 PM History Teacher.....Unfortunately Jesus and the canonical version of Christianity did not teacher anybody anything,,,being that the story is mythical in origin....paganist in its rituals....The problem with this misrepresentation is , when people interpret myths as history, supersitions are more likely to takes hold of ones belief systems…
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 23, 2006 at 3:53 PM Redhorse… ;-)
I agree, religions - all religions- are based on historical myths. However, there is a grain of truth to myths.
That being said, I don’t believe in God or Jesus but I do believe humans were created(?) as in the Old Testament.
The Bible (Old Testament) is an abbreviated (and twisted) version of events that were written down as historical by the Summerians. It’s a histoy of the creation of the earth, the animals and humans.
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