“Route-step, march” is a permissive military command that directs a marching formation to continue without a set cadence. So, “route-step” also is a common term of disparagement for sloppiness and indiscipline—an apt characterization, as it happens, for America’s current response to world affairs. We little people, absent more vigilance and skepticism, are in danger of being route-stepped into World War III… return to article
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Reader Comments (72)Page 1 of 1 pagesWho is Greg Foster, and why he is writing parody and comedy on ITT?
First we are instructed that “our rulers and their ideological acolytes” (I think he is referring to our elected officials) are “route step” types (sloppy and undisciplined), but then he notes that President Bush has “unwaveringly” stuck to calling the hunt for terrorists the Global War on Terror. Foster might have noted that President Bush has also “unwaveringly” fought the terrorists.
The contradiction between Foster’s imputation of sloppy and undisciplined behavior to President Bush and his Administration contrasts neatly with President Bush’s actual unwavering actions. Funny, huh?
And then there is this little gem:
Of course, proclaiming that we are at war, especially world war, strengthens the president’s hand as commander-in-chief and his claims to concentrated power ...
Ummm, well! At war or not, the President is the Commander-in-Chief and, as such, does have concentrated power; it is spelled out in the Constitution, a document with which Foster may not be familiar.
“Gluttonous defense spending”: Ummm, where is that to be found? Spending on Iraq and Afghanistan is an order of magnitude less than spending on the Dimocrats’ Vietnam debacle and has ever so much greater results and prospects.
“(R)estrictions on civil liberties and dissent”: Ummm, and where is that to be found? The dissent around here is pretty silly, but it is not lacking in expression. So what are we talking about? Or is this just one more of the foolish things leftists say to make political points, and hope no one analyzes the comment too closely?
“(P)uts Congress, the media and an opposition party devoid of all credibility on national security matters on the permanent defensive”: Congress, no, just some members of the Congress. And “the media and an opposition party” are “devoid of all credibility on national security matters” because of their own actions; it has nothing to do with President Bush. Does Foster have an editor? This whole statement is nonsensical, on several levels.
“Israel has been America’s continuing military proxy in the Middle East”: You mean like Hizb’allah is Iran’s “continuing military proxy in the Middle East”? And since Israel regularly stomps the Islamofascists’ butts every time they attack Israel, you might think Hizb’allah would learn to avoid attacking their peaceful neighbors.
Clearly, two things characterize the Bush administration’s approach to international affairs. First, the high politics of statecraft have given way to the low politics of partisan jockeying. Second, the strategic exercise of power has been overwhelmed by the tactical use of force—to the extent that our foreign policy has been completely militarized. The inevitable result, absent a countervailing exercise of democratic prerogative by the American people, will be the Third World War those now in power have set us up for.
Polysyllabic incoherence.
Posted by scorp on Sep 29, 2006 at 4:17 AM What Foster says in parody, I say with utmost sincerity.
This is a Manichean war, of good vs evil. It does span countries and continents. It is a fight of democracy, of might for right, against the tyrannies of fascist totalitarian beliefs, of might makes right.
It is starting with Islamic fundamentalists, but there are other tyrannies out there, becoming emboldened by recent events. Secular Arabic autocrats, African strongmen, Chinese nationalists. European appeasers.
Yeah, this is indeed the first stage of WWIII. Just as Spain and Ethiopia were the opening shots of fascism in WWII. Spain and Ethiopia were not a part of the later, larger conflagration, but that is where it started.
I guess the good professor never heard of, or merely ignores, Santayana.
Where is the Churchill of our age?
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2006 at 11:24 AM I won’t disagree with Scorp’s characterization of Vietnam as Dimocrat debacle, but that does not justify the Bush administration’s current actions in Iraq. The US tried to spread Democracy to Vietnam and failed (killing millions in the process), tried to spread Democracy to the Philippines and failed (killing hundreds of thousand in the process), tried the same in Cuba and that didn’t go so well.
True democracy must be a people’s movement; it cannot be imposed upon the people and unfortunately the people of Iraq cannot hear our case for democracy over the rattling sabers.
So if a free and democratic Iraq is the best way to ensure our safety at home what good will full scale military assaults and talk of WWIII do for us?
Posted by curmudgeon on Sep 29, 2006 at 1:28 PM As a people’s movement, does true democracy happen spontaneously?
Posted by Jay Cline on Sep 29, 2006 at 9:20 PM Curmudgeon -
Do you go by Cur, or is your name Mud?
In a brief post, you have made numerous mischaracterizations and factual errors. Democracy was not imposed on Germany and Japan after WWII? What are they now, fascist and military dictatorships, the same as before WWII?
All you can hear is a few rattling sabers, you didn’t by chance notice the millions of purple fingers? I realize the NYT and the leftist media want you to concentrate on the rattling sabers, but do you have to be so obtuse about it?
There were about twenty democracies in the world at the start of the Twentieth Century. Now there are well over one hundred nations with some degree of democracy, including the Philippines, one of your examples. Some of these new democracies were imposed by the USA and other democracies, and all the rest were inspired and assisted by Western democracies, such as the newly free nations of Eastern Europe. As a result of this flowering of democracy, the world is a more peaceful and prosperous place.
The totalitarian anti-democracies, including the Islamic states, are the source, directly and indirectly, of the genocide and conflict in the world: Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, North Korea. The sooner these states are promoted to democracy, the better off the entire world will be. The cost may be great, but not near as great as ignoring the problems.
... what good will full scale military assaults and talk of WWIII do for us?
Beats me. Ask Foster, he is the one pushing the idea. The Bush effort is quite restrained (probably too restrained), but it has led to brilliant results at an extremely low cost.
Posted by scorp on Sep 29, 2006 at 11:39 PM Uhm, my dear Scorp, are u saying that you are living in a democracy?
I hope you know the meaning of the greek word Demos…
and in a real democracy the sole purpose of the military is to Defend its own country and the freedom of its own people.
Lets see where your democracy used its military in the last…50 years:
Korea, Philippines, Iran, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Syria, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Haiti, Ecuador, Congo, Indonesia, Uruguay, Chile, Panama, Afghanistan, Iraq… i’m sure this list is not complete, and i am sure that none of these countries were threatning your freedom or your “democracy”. In this list Saudi Arabia, a totalitarian anti-democracy state, is absent and i am trying to understand why…
What scares me, and millions more in the world, is that people like you talk of these wars as wars for freedom and democracy…pathetic and arrogant. In every country democratized from your wars appears many US Army base exactly as the ancient romans did in Europe and the Middle East and North Africa, centuries ago. Maybe we are actually approaching WW III, wich will be fought to stop the imperialistic aims of the USA over the entire globe.
Posted by beggarsbanquet on Sep 30, 2006 at 2:04 AM BB -
BB, buddy, you are weird.
... are u saying that you are living in a democracy?
Well, yes, as a matter of fact. Just because you can’t win an election does not mean that I am not living in a democracy.
... in a real democracy the sole purpose of the military is to Defend its own country and the freedom of its own people.
You are not the first leftist to argue this crap. So do you have a theoretical or practical basis for your statement? No, you do not.
In fact, democracies rarely fight with each other, so expanding the number of democracies and democratic institutions does defend our country and our people, at least from other democracies.
... pathetic and arrogant.
Pathetic and arrogant? Pathetic? And? Arrogant? Patheticandarrogant? Are you sure? How can one be both pathetic and arrogant? You are just tossing out negative words, following some leftist script, without giving a goddam thought to what you are saying. Knock yourself out, boy. If you do not pay any attention to what you say, why should I?
In every country democratized from your wars appears many US Army base (sic) exactly as the ancient romans (sic) did in Europe and the Middle East and North Africa, centuries ago. Maybe we are actually approaching WW III, wich (sic) will be fought to stop the imperialistic aims of the USA over the entire globe.
Really? Are you sure? How about France? We pulled our bases out of France in 1967. How have we maintained our imperialistic aims in France for the last thirty-nine years? How about the Philippines? We have recently removed bases from Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan, and sharply reduced the number of bases in Europe since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Saudi Arabia was a real heart-breaker. Think of all that oil just sitting there ready to fulfill our imperialistic aims. Woe is US. However can we pursue our imperialistic aims when we keep removing our bases? Woe, woe, woe.
Posted by scorp on Sep 30, 2006 at 12:08 PM Scorp, it’s quite simple: being arrogant is pathetic. Why did the USA recognize all the military juntas in South America which overthrew democratically elected presidents some 30 years ago and allowed them to commit crimes, disappear persons and even trained them on torture practices at the School of Americas in Panama, run by CIA?
Ah, I forgot the old motto your country seems to abide by: “You have to do what you have to do”, that simple. And, of course, those countries had a number of leftists which, as everybody knows, are dangerous and evil people, the same as the arabs, who have the bad habit of living on a soil which has your oil underneath. Only nobody has explained clearly who sets the rules about what is to be done, to what purpose and who appointed the USA as global ruler. Shouldn’t we all vote whether we want you to exploit our resources, mingle in our internal affairs and decide who is good and who is evil?
Posted by Maria on Sep 30, 2006 at 9:10 PM ....a more appropriate title would be ” Goose-steppin’ their way into WW III….... “
Newt Gingrich has repeatedly reiterated that Nazi regime tactics were used during his reign as US House Speaker…
Unfortunately folks , fear works…..the repeated use of fear works….especially on a docile citizenry….
With the collective loss of habeas corpus rights…any of us….even ol’ Scorpa ’ toon ; can be arrest…and find themselves in indefinite detention…
Now if you are a citizen you can still use your now questionable writ of habeas corpus…but the power to detain anybody for ...no apparent reason is now law…...
If you are not a citizen…but have legal residence…you are just short…out of luck…you can be held indefinitely , WITH NO CHARGES…..............
Blood in My Eye…
Posted by Redhorse on Sep 30, 2006 at 9:34 PM No scorp, i wasnt talking about who won or lost the elections. In your democracy only a few billionaires (and not the best minds of your country) can run for the key-roles of your government. And in a real democracy the military has a marginal role in the social and economic life of its country…
The ones who should fight the tyrannic and bloody regimes(usually helped and funded by CIA - and that’s a fact, not a leftist plot) are the UN, which unfortunatelly are useless.
You should know that there are three steps to turn a country into an american colony. The first step is people who try to subjugate economically that country under the american control. If this attempt doesnt work, someone else will try to overthrow or kill the leader. If they fail, then the brave and honorable Marines will start to play. All this just to say that sometimes the USA doesnt need mlitary bases to control a colony (Saudi Arabia is a clear example).
About France, Charles De Gaull suffered almost 30 assassination attempts between 1958 and 1966, until the States HAD to leave their bases in France.
And Redhorse, dude! i only have legal residence…uhmmm….maybe it is safer for me stop thinking….
Posted by beggarsbanquet on Oct 1, 2006 at 1:15 AM beggarsbanquet…..Yeah man…don’t stop thinkin’...you’ll end up like ol’ boy Scorpy and is little band of anal-retentive Nazi lovin’ zombies….
Apparently this Habeas Corpus ruling will be fought by appeals…but how long that will take is anybodies guess…
Scorpy is not persuaded by any humane elements that speak to civil behavior or the establishment of a more peaceful society….
Niether…by the obvious psycho-sociopathic behavior of his leaders…his denial is of a compulsive nature , the etiology of which can be traced to his excessive feeble submission too the rule of strigent socioeconomic controls…dictatorship…and what can only be discribed as a belligerent…bellicose…a total ignobilis ( ignoble )...national and international policy….these are his mantras…...
Reason does not exist in the scorp a ’ toon world..only the fascistic cravin’s of the industrial military complex…and the Trilateralist war-mongering banker whores that finance this mess….............
The funny thing is , that in the 6 months Redhorse has trolled these ITT waters…Scorp has garnered little if any recruits…none as a matter of fact…Sometimes his little storm-trooper klux klan get together…but again with poor results…quite pathetic really…..
Basically he’s the butt of satirical jokes….a ‘king of the ‘toons if you will…..
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 1, 2006 at 2:35 AM Maria -
Why did the USA recognize all the military juntas in South America which overthrew democratically elected presidents some 30 years ago and allowed them to commit crimes, disappear persons and even trained them on torture practices at the School of Americas in Panama, run by CIA?
Oh, come now, Maria. I have told you 40,000 times not to exaggerate.
The nasty little conflicts in Latin America (and Africa, and SE Asia) to which you refer were proxy battles between the CIA and the KGB. The KGB and your Soviet friends lost. Get over it.
Chile is now the most prosperous country in South America, after Allende utterly wrecked the economy. Chavez is now wrecking the Venezuelan economy, but he is doing such a good job we probably won’t have to do anything about it. The democracy and free market bugs have infected most of Latin America, and most states in the neighborhood do not want anything to do with Chavez, except poor Evo in Bolivia. Oh, well. We have bigger fish to fry.
Only nobody has explained clearly who sets the rules about what is to be done, to what purpose and who appointed the USA as global ruler.
I can’t help you with the “global ruler” part, but the United States, with a little help from her (democratic) friends, sets the rules. The rules are actually fairly benign, unless someone starts to pop caps on us, or threatens to.
When we buy gasoline in the USA, the equivalent of fifteen cents of the cost of every gallon goes to pay for United States Navy worldwide operations. One of the unsung functions of the Navy is to keep sea lanes open. Everyone who buys or sells products that are shipped by sea benefits from this subsidy provided by the US Navy (except USA consumers, of course).
So, we are in a position that we are supporting and subsidizing China, Japan, SE Asia, the Middle East, Africa, Europe, and Latin America by protecting free (and unfree) trade. Do all these places appreciate our efforts? Probably not, but if we ever get into the position that we cannot keep the sea lanes open, it would have profound negative effects on the world economy and personal well-being everywhere.
Is that concept too advanced for you? Who else is willing and able to protect world-wide trade? Who would you like to have protect world-wide trade? The Italian Mafia? The Russian Mafia? The Council of Guardians? Chavez?
Be careful what you wish for, and don’t try to take your dumbass socialist ideology to unsupportable levels.
Posted by scorp on Oct 1, 2006 at 3:49 AM Those ” LITTLE CONFLICTS ” have been responsible for the deaths of 10’s of millions of people….The little conflict in the Congo has cost the lives of at least 10 million people…These are not small disputes ol’ Scorpal tunnel vision….these are major conflicts that produce massive pain and suffering….But of course you cannot be concerned with those small details….The Congo war is the source of many western comforts….The massive amounts of copper , gold . gems , cobalt and of course let us not forget the coltan , which is a major ingredient in the production of cell phones and laptop computers….Your view that these conflicts are mere “proxy ” in nature , is a complete marginalization of your own concerns…how would Scorp get in touch with ol’ Nata girl without his computer…..The fact that US corporations are willing to stand by eager to exploit the wealth of other nations under the falsehood of ” Free Trade “...speaks volumes as too the reasonings associated with why the citizens of these nations would want ol’ Scorpy and friends out of the picture….The CIA’S ROLE IS OBVIOUSLY THAT OF A MERCENARY COVERT ARMY….Scorpy you are proud of this legacy…and see no reasons to feel ass-shame for the resulting suffering that is inflicted on the innocent populations….
And now we see , on the home front…another big time republican congressman has ...let us say….” bit the dust ” or maybe more accurately trying to ” suck the dust “...chasing after little boys on the internet….Florida Repubilcan Congressman Mark Foley has stepped down from his elected position in congress…at least we think he was elected…who knows these days…anyway the man was caught trying to solict sex from a teenage boy over the internet….Obviously this is a cumpulsive behavior on the part of the “good ” congressman…but what is most illuminating is the fact that people like Speaker Haskert knew about the extremely questionably activities of the congressman well in advance of the resignation…but said NOTHING…THESE REPUBLICANS SAY THEY ARE PROTECTING THE ” US ” CITIZENRY….but won’t lift a finger , much less pick up a phone to confirm or rather investigate the seriousness of allegations concerning a pedophile congressman within their own constituency , how many victims has the very ” homo-horny ” congressman snagged , while the Speaker twiddled away…maybe Haskert has a little somethin’ goin’ on also…..What do ya think ol’ Scorpy…all your neo-con butt boys down on the HILL…BLUE-MOONIN’ with a bunch of 13 year olds…........eh…
Question ol’ boy….do any of your elitist friends like sex with say…um…a mature woman maybe…..?
Why are so many of these neo-con’s drawn too elicit behaviors with youth children….?
Redhorse sees a pathology here…internationally perverse….nationally perverse…and privately perverse…......Is this part of a phenotypical neo-con agenda…the carnal knowledge of minors….?
Please…dear Scorpy…your nero-minded insights on this troubling phenomenon….?
Now on the subject of protecting ” world trade “...who would Redhorse preferr…why who else…you mentioned him , none other than my main man…..Hugo Chavez…....Your rhetorical ass-umption are just that… rhetorical twirling machinations of the Nazi Scorp…looking for other ” pustulate blood-suckers too confirm the delusionary fantasies of the neo-con rightist…and their little back-door lovin’ lackies…...
Looks like the satirical wit and wonderment of the Redhorse is not to far-fetched….Not only are your heros…blood thirsty war profiteering scum sucking pustulating murderers…but they are also ; back-door bandits , with a fetish for the immature youth of Amerika…......Your Fuhrer would be proud…yes…
Was not Hilter fond of having ol’ girl Eva ...defecate on him….ugh…maybe that was just ...” a rumor “..............eh….
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 1, 2006 at 12:36 PM Mr. Foster loudly states…
“In public appearances, interviews and newspaper commentaries, he has made the World War III mantra the centerpiece of a Churchillian patois designed to burnish his qualifications as a prospective commander in chief.”
Let me I remind Greg Foster that history has proven Churchill to have been quite accurate in spite of the overwhelming opposition to his views.
Even after open hostilities began many thought during the Phony War period that he was overreacting.
—————————-However, my next choice for Commander in Chief may well be a Democrat, an Independent, or a Libertarian!
We hear talk about needing to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis, but the real problem is the Bush administration has not won the hearts and minds of Americans.
Except for people with loved ones serving, the war has become a TV series (West Wing vs Left Wing). Picture FDR addressing the joint session of congress immediately after Pearl Harbor saying, “...a state of war has existed, but don’t let it affect your daily lives or change your habits in any way, that’s just what they want.”
When you send a mixed message you will get a mixed result. How can people here and around the world take him seriously. Bush is widely perceived to be a liar, only interested in oil, or in avenging the attempted attack on his father. For fully two years the media was allowed to define the war in sound bites of choice. The White House may have ignored it, but the world has not.
We should attain energy independence ASAP, even if it means rationing. We should reinstitute the draft. We should call for volunteers to teach how to identify Chemical, Biological and Radiological attacks and what to do for each. And above all we should treat border security in a realistic, non-PC manner.
Bush could begin to gain some credibility by admitting Rumsfeld’s post-combat strategy (there was one?) has not worked and replace him. (Former CENTCOM General Zinni?)
Next to go should be Manetta whose PC approach to airport security is a sick joke. It is hard to take it seriously when so much idiotic eyewash is dumped on us.
Homeland Security? The recently leaked intelligence report says it all. If we can’t secure the “intelligence” agencies…
Perhaps the best way to make the case that the Muslim threat is a real war, not a criminal problem, would be to elect the most liberal, anti-war candidate. When he sees the daily briefing and classified intel the radical change in his thinking may finally convince those who are more worried about adhering to the Geneva Convention and terrorists’ rights than in preserving another 230 years of U.S. freedom.
Until someone unites us we will continue to rerun “The Phony War”.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 1, 2006 at 12:38 PM scorp,
thanks for asking. It’s mudge, but if you want to believe it’s mud go right on ahead. In fact, it’s more amusing as mud.
You said, “in a brief post, you have made numerous mischaracterizations and factual errors”. Please elaborate. What errors have I committed? Mischaracterizations, perhaps, but that is a matter of perspective. I do not pretend to be objective as that is not possible because to be neutral is to give implicit approval for the status quo.
I have no problems with the purple fingers and am quite aware of them. The purple fingers aren’t killing people, but those sabers are. This gives me cause for concern. Let’s not forget that there are people, just like you and me, who have nothing to do with this conflict who are being killed daily just because they were unlucky enough to be born in a place like Iraq.
Leftist or Rightist characterization of media is fairly meaningless. First of all the media has no obligation to be objective. I wish, as you probably do, that there was such a thing as free media but it simply doesn’t exist. There are outlets for both those people on the left & those on the right and we have to be smart enough to figure things out for ourselves. As for the NYT, they were in favor of military action so it isn’t my favorite source of news.
Germany? First of all I said nothing about Germany. Do you remember that wall? The military didn’t take it down; the people did. We did not put democracy in place in the Philippines; that’s absurd. They had dictatorial governments until the people had enough of it only a few years ago. The U.S. had nothing to do with that.
I don’t suggest that we should ignore terrorism and I also believe that democratic forms of gov’t are the best we have at this time. But there is a vast world between ignoring terrorism and using military force that kills more innocent people than guilty people. The U.S. is full of very intelligent people (and that includes our President) so they should be able to figure out methods of intervention that do not require killing people.
In your list of totalitarian, anti-democratic states you fail to list Saudi Arabia, is that intentional or an oversight. If we are opposed to totalitarianism then we have to focus on all of them. If our relationship with the Saudis is so good then why can’t we convince to become a democratic state? Why can’t they be the example for the rest of the middle east? Don’t we stand a better chance of bringing democracy to that state without using violence? They can be that inspiration.
Posted by curmudgeon on Oct 1, 2006 at 2:43 PM Heck -
We hear talk about needing to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis, but the real problem is the Bush administration has not won the hearts and minds of Americans.
Perhaps the best way to make the case that the Muslim threat is a real war, not a criminal problem, would be to elect the most liberal, anti-war candidate. When he sees the daily briefing and classified intel the radical change in his thinking may finally convince those who are more worried about adhering to the Geneva Convention and terrorists’ rights than in preserving another 230 years of U.S. freedom.
Well, no. The hearts and minds of the Americans were near unanimous in support of President Bush after 09/11. As expressed by their elected representatives, the hearts and minds of the American people were even closer to unanimity in 1998, when the Iraq Liberation Act was passed, voted for by 100% of the Senators and all but a bare handful of Representatives. The Act called for regime change in Iraq, and the reasons given for this new law included Iraq’s WMD, and Iraq as a threat to the USA, to the Iraqi people, and to the other states in the Middle East. President Clinton signed ILA 1998 into law, at a time when George Bush was still Governor of Texas. And of course there was the Iraq War Resolution of 2003, approved with strong bipartisan support.
So, what happened to the support for removing Saddam and freeing the Iraqi people? Well, almost to a man (and woman), the Dimocrats that supported removing Saddam seem to have changed their minds. They now speak loudly against their former policy, and the left media loudly supports them. And by loudly repeating their lies, they convince some people of their position, not unlike Goebbels in nazi Germany.
Ignoring their former support for removing Saddam, the Dims now claim that “Bush lied (about WMD)” and “Bush is incompetent”. But the existence of the WMD and the removal of Saddam were pillars of Dimocrat policy before Bush became President. And it is hard to make a case for incompetence, since Afghanistan and Iraq are by far (more than an order of magnitude) less expensive in casualties and in treasure than the next cheapest USA war, and much more successful than, say, Vietnam or (so far) even Korea.
Which brings us to your second quote: I assure you that any potential leftist nominee for President is well aware of the intel on the Middle East and the lies that the Dims tell about President Bush. The Dims’ position is not about being truthful or about doing what is best for the country, but doing what it takes to regain political power.
Can we afford to have a leftist President? No, they always raise taxes and damage the economy (Johnson, Carter, Clinton). They also profess to believe that we should abandon Iraq to the terrorists.
Lord knows what the Dims think we ought to do about Iran’s nukes. But remember that Clinton slept right through the development of nuclear weapons in Pakistan and North Korea. Perhaps he was tired from diddling Monica, or whomever, or whatever.
Posted by scorp on Oct 1, 2006 at 6:47 PM Oh, scorp, what a simple world in which we live! Dims is so cute and it’s so easy to see everything as Dims & Repubicons. Every issue has two and only two sides, or at best Dims & Reps are the bipolar opposites and maybe the truth is somewhere in between. Is everyone who disagrees with you a dimocrat or a moonbat?
You were right about one thing. The representatives in our gov’t were overwhelmingly in favor of firing up the indiscriminate death machine. Maybe it’s time we follow the instructions of the Declaration of Independence and get rid of this fictional thing we call a gov’t.
Posted by curmudgeon on Oct 1, 2006 at 9:38 PM Big government is dangerous Left or RIght. The only response I can offer is if the European Powers had stopped Hitler when he began re-arming Germany, WWII would have never happened.
The state, local, and federal government’s response to a disaster the scale of Katrina was at best shoddy and at worst criminal. The implications of a nuclear or chemical attack on an American city are too horrific to imagine. The panic alone would kill thousands. We need to change the way we think in terms of national security.
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 2, 2006 at 2:29 AM Mudge -
Mudge it is.
The US tried to spread Democracy to Vietnam and failed (killing millions in the process), tried to spread Democracy to the Philippines and failed (killing hundreds of thousand in the process), tried the same in Cuba and that didn’t go so well.
True democracy must be a people’s movement; it cannot be imposed upon the people and unfortunately the people of Iraq cannot hear our case for democracy over the rattling sabers.
I think you will find that the USA was quite conscientious about avoiding civilian casualties in Vietnam, in spite of a few isolated, and well-reported, incidents to the contrary. WWII was much worse, and Afghanistan/Iraq is much better, reflecting our improving targeting capabilities and changes in cultural sensitivity. At any rate, the “millions” who died did so after the USA left, under the tender ministrations of Ho Chi Minh.
The Philippines now practice democracy, if imperfectly, after the Marcos years. Perhaps we should have done better, but the USA hardly killed “hundreds of thousands”.
Well, yes, Cuba was a fiasco. Do you see any significance in the fact that the three examples you presented originated during Dimocratic Administrations (Johnson, Johnson, Kennedy), and we have been living with the consequences ever since?
For that matter, do you see any significance in the fact that all the serious economic recessions in the last forty years have originated during Dimocratic Administrations (Johnson, Carter, Clinton), and the people of the USA always get stuck with living with the consequences (unemployment, reduced income, reduced opportunity)? People are not stupid, in spite of what the Dimocrats think. That is why elite democrats have so much trouble getting elected.
I have already challenged your thoughts on “true democracy”. Germany and Japan are not true democracies after WWII?
But there is a vast world between ignoring terrorism and using military force that kills more innocent people than guilty people.
Don’t be ridiculous. Bodycount has the best record of civilian fatalities in Iraq, and those attributed to Coalition activity are about 10,000, mostly during the first three weeks of combat, including civilians forced to act as human shields. The UN said that there would be 500,000 civilian fatalities, and two million refugees, in Iraq, but you know how credible the UN is. All the rest of the current civilian casualties are from al-Qa’eda and factional fighting. The current daily civilian casualty rates in Iraq are substantially less than the terrorist murders of the Saddam years, which lasted for over 8,500 days.
Is everyone who disagrees with you a dimocrat or a moonbat?
No, of course not. Susan Estrich and Peter Beinart are serious, rational leftists who can present cogent arguments in defense of their somewhat misguided ideological positions. Joe Lieberman has taken a traditional Democratic position in defense of American values, and has been duly punished by the moonbats, but it looks like good old Joe will prevail over the moonbats. We better prevail over the moonbats, or God help us all.
Posted by scorp on Oct 2, 2006 at 2:30 AM Ya know Scorpy…yu funny…with your little dumb ass house of cards falling down all around you…Scorpy stays the course….Just like the fool who wanted to go to Mexico…so he starts driving north on INTERSTATE 95…
” We better prevail over the moonbats, or God help us all. “....Most folks right now are just trying to survive ol’ Georgey Bush…and his band of cut throats….................
Your belief that civilian casualties are only from al Queda…is just pure bull-shit…like everything else you post ...sounds more like some hollywood script…..then actual factual data…..
Now…Scorp will have us believe that…all the worlds problem…especially in the US , are because of the dems….Is not that a rather child-like ,and immature assessment… .do you ever take responsiblity for any of the problems…ol’ Bushy rat has caused…how old are you Scorp….10…
Every imperialist war fougt by this nation has and is the result for the millions of civilian casualties…Your foolish assertions to the contrary only go to show how ridiculous your position is…
Don’t you have some child to molest…or knowledge of some other neo-con pedophiles activities , that need covering up….Congressman Foley is sure to call good ol’ Scorpo for advice on the shillery factor….what ya gonna tell him scorp…?
Scorpy…you are an ideological toilet…any neo-con shit that is in the wind…is dumped in your brain….Please…Flush…...
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 2, 2006 at 6:52 AM BB –
In your democracy only a few billionaires (and not the best minds of your country) can run for the key-roles of your government.
Do you feign lunacy, or is it for real?
Name all the billionaires holding political office in the USA. Now it is true that George Soros is a billionaire, and, until recently, he actively participated in promoting left-wind politics. But after he pissed away several tens of millions of dollars trying to defeat President Bush and the Republicans, he seems to have given up on the idea. But then, you are correct that Soros is somewhat lacking in snap.
About France, Charles De Gaull (sic) suffered almost 30 assassination attempts between 1958 and 1966, until the States HAD to leave their bases in France.
Non sequitur. What does a bunch of Algerian rebels trying to assasinate DeGaulle have to do with DeGaulle limiting France’s participation in NATO?
Look, BB, nothing personal, but why don’t you just sit quietly in the corner with Horse, and play with your coloring book. You really do not belong in this conversation.
Posted by scorp on Oct 2, 2006 at 6:52 AM Yu kinda of jokey at this hour ol’ boy…..coloring books….
Care to explain your Parties fetish for young boys…..?
While BB and Redhorse play with our coloring books…..WHAT ARE YOU PLAYING WITH….Scorpy…?
And is he of legal age…..?
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 2, 2006 at 7:41 AM Texasindependent, I fully agree with you as regards big governments. It has been proved once and again the consequences of excessive power and they are all ugly.
Scorp, thank you for subsidizing the rest of the world but you can count me out so as not to make your burden so heavy. I have always been able to make a living by working with reponsibility.
I never said I am a socialist, I don’t belong to any political party, I believe in cooperation, humanism, compassion and all those idiotic things people don’t talk about any more. I am against all wars or pressure exercised upon the weakest. Going back to my first comment to you “arrogance is pathetic”, but do’t worry I won’t bother you any more. I have just found an old box of water colours and will sit quietly to do some painting to keep BB and red horse company. Please, be careful not to fall off your ego and break your crown, people need you badly to inspire them with your comments.
Posted by Maria on Oct 2, 2006 at 6:00 PM Scorpy…..Redhorse is home from work…..All day long , on the news…at work…folks are talking about those pervert republicans….it was the topic on WPFW.FM…98.3…morning call in talk radio…..Even ol’ Bo…our resident republican shill was upset…....how about you..ol’ boy…nothing to say….Scorp…both hands on the keyboard Scorp…both hands…sir….
Do we want to talk about Bob Woodward…..............??
Or what about ol’ Henry Kissinger….............?
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 2, 2006 at 10:13 PM Hey scorp,
I’m still waitng for a reply from you on an earlier post when I asked you how we would know when we have won the global war on terror? Do you think you could reply? I am really interested, since it seems reading you bile, that you couldn’t give a rats for anyone other than the US, and so it is important to me and around 6.2 billion other people on this planet that we know when ‘we have won’ as opposed to just knowing that we will always be in a state of perpetual war, until every other culture just lies down and lets the US do what it wants, without let of hindrance.
Posted by Jane Doe on Oct 2, 2006 at 10:35 PM TI, Maria -
I guess I owe Maria an apology. Here I thought she was a socialist, and now she claims to be a Bush Conservative!
How else can you explain that she favors small government? The only way to make government small is to cut taxes.
Cutting tax rates (Kennedy, Reagan, Bush 43) increases government tax receipts. Raising taxes (Johnson, Carter, Clinton) lowers government tax receipts. Damn few socialists understand this, no matter how many times it is explained, or what theoretical and empirical proofs are offered. If Maria actually understands this, welcome aboard!
But don’t celebrate too soon:
... thank you for subsidizing the rest of the world but you can count me out so as not to make your burden so heavy. I have always been able to make a living by working with responsibility.
This statement makes perfect sense if Maria pays no taxes, does not consume commercial energy (gasoline, diesel, NG, electricity), and buys no foreign-manufactured cars, clothes, electronic items, or any other items built overseas. Otherwise it is just more socialist bullshit.
... I believe in cooperation, humanism, compassion and all those idiotic things people don’t talk about any more.
Sorry, you are quite mistaken. Both President Johnson and President Bush talked about compassion. President Johnson incorporated the compassionate Welfare Program in his Great Society. The compassionate Welfare Program cost $6 trillion (approximately the size of the current federal debt), and the only measurable, enduring result was the virtually total destruction of black families. President Bush talks of Compassionate Conservatism, which in actual practice has been mostly limited to the Medicare drug benefits; but at least Bush has a way to pay for the Medicare, while Johnson did not attempt to pay the whole cost of the Great Society, which went much beyond just the Welfare Program.
So, can you remind me again of the benefits of “cooperation, humanism, compassion and all those idiotic things people don’t talk about any more” after you destroy families and create a huge debt for the nation?
Maria, I offer you an opportunity to think seriously about serious matters, and all you seem to address is pabulum. Learn to think, or go back to your water colors.
Posted by scorp on Oct 2, 2006 at 11:58 PM Maria…
Thank you for an intelligent reply. Politics have drug our civility into the trash bin. Watercolor something soothing.
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 3, 2006 at 12:36 AM Jane Doe…ol’ butthead .Scorpy is busy making an king size ASS OF HIMSELF…..a little patience… ol’ boy CAN go on for a while , it’s the only thing he’s good at…that and ; shillin’ for neo-con right-wing christian republican pedophiles for Congress…....who’s your current poster boy….isn’t it some guy named ” FOLEY “
When you finish with JD….Redhorse would like to hear your thoughts on Mr..BlueBoy of the month and current Capial Hill pervert… former Rep. Foley…........eeh…! ! !
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 3, 2006 at 2:45 AM Maria….Could you paint a big REDHORSE…..I got some red paint…...
In my coloring book…I drew a picture of Scorpy and the President Buckyfush…but I can’t tell you anymore about what Buckyfush is doing too our boy Scorpy-douche…..but it ain’t pretty….........ouch…ugh…! ? ?..
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 3, 2006 at 3:04 AM Hey scorp, could you just take your meds and listen up a minute.
What would an ‘unsuccessful’ policy in Iraq look like, and how would it be distinguished from say, the current debacle?
When will we know ‘we’ have ‘prevailed’ over the ‘enemy’?
How will we know when ‘we’ have won the GWOT?
What would an ‘expensive’ policy in Iraq look like? A deifict of two trillion dollars?
Why do you think that the real elites who run US foreign policy are currently running a mile from the neocons? Signs of success, or fear for the cosequemces of letting frat boys and lying fruitcloops run the tuckshop?
Oh and BTW, how much tax do you really want to pay son? You see if the US policy elites follow your sage foreign policy advice, it will be the US all the way-on its lonesome. Not even US deficits can pay the way for that one. You really should do some more reading, and stop substituting John Wayne westerns for an anlaysis of how the real world works.
Just answer the questions please, because we are all waiting to know when we can all relax. knowing that the good guys won!
Posted by Jane Doe on Oct 3, 2006 at 5:20 AM JD…...Yes….they are schlepping away from the Buckfush and his muttonheaded little band of war profiteering scoundrels….....................
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 3, 2006 at 9:40 AM Scorp,
Don’t confuse the political unity immediately post 9/11 with “winning the hearts and minds” of anyone. Politicians love to jump in front of a parade. and, like most of us, they were angry enough to want to retaliate against the perpetrators. Emotional reactions like this are akin to a lynch mob and why a slow moving form of government should never be replaced by computerized consensus (a la electronic voting).
All protract wars have eventually bogged down and become “unpopular”. From the Revolutionary War through Vietnam this has been the case. The Spanish American War of about three months is about the right length to avoid political opportunism from taking hold.
Perhaps when the rest of Europe and those Asian countries which have also been undergoing periodic terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists awaken to the idea that this is more than just an anti-U.S. campaign we will align the hearts and minds globally.
Until then unless a more consistent case is made to the American people we are in danger of letting the Vietnam similarities trump the genuine picture.
The Rumsfeld battle plan was fine, but the assumptions of Iraqis taking charge immediately post combat were way off the mark. Rumsfeld admitted as much this past week by saying they did not expect this degree of insurgency. OK, so let’s change our approach or change Defense Secretaries!I would have preferred less than an all out invasion of Iraq. (We should have finished Saddam in 1991.) But we must deal with what now is.
To do that we need more troops, relief for the 40 percent Reserve and National Guard units, an all encompassing effort to gain energy independence and most important make clear to the American public just how serious this war is. No more business-as-usual. No more leaky borders. No more PC over genuine security.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 3, 2006 at 1:24 PM If in 1991 the 3rd ACR had been allowed to finish the Iraqi Army off. We would not be discussing Iraq in 2006. Never leave a job unfinished.
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 3, 2006 at 11:27 PM TI -
True enough, as far as it goes.
But the UN mandate (this was the UN Kuwaiti operation, carefully crafted to include the views of a large coalition of UN partners) was for ending the occupation of Kuwait, not for regime change in Iraq. A number of the UN members of the coalition objected to going further in Iraq.
Instead of eliminating Saddam, the UN imposed the Armistice with restrictions on Saddam’s behavior and freedom of action. The three principal requirements of the Armistice were that Saddam cease hostile actions against neighboring states, cease repression of the Iraqi people, and surrender and account for illegal weapons and WMD. But as soon as the Coalition disbanded, Saddam began violating the Armistice, in all respects and particulars.
Diplomatically, the UNSC was 100% behind the Armistice and controlling Saddam for a period of thirteen years through a series of seventeen UNSC Resolutions, all attempting to get Saddam to conform with the terms of the Armistice. But individually, UN members, particularly Russia and France, illegally, and profitably, assisted Saddam in violating the terms of the Armistice. The UN Oil-for-Food program became the largest bribery/ extortion/ kickback/ smuggling/ corruption scandal in history.
After UNSC Resolution 1441 was approved unanimously, and gave Saddam one “final opportunity” to comply with the terms of the Armistice, the UN solidarity abruptly dissolved; the UN members who were taking bribes and kick-backs from Saddam decided that Saddam’s “final opportunity” was not final, and the solid position that the UN had maintained for thirteen years ended. After nothing else had worked for those thirteen years, the Coalition went to war to enforce the UN Armistice, while the bribe takers accused the thirty-member Coalition, and particularly the USA, of being “unilateral” (!).
Posted by scorp on Oct 4, 2006 at 1:17 AM Hey scorp, still waitin’ my man.
Why are you so shy all of a sudden? Cat got your tongue? Not able to reply to specific questions? Lost your book of talking points?
When will we know ‘we have won’ and what will ‘winning’ look like?
What would victory in Iraq look like?
What would losing in Iraq look like? and
Since the policy objectives in Iraq (as far as one could ascertain them from the lies and spin) was the overthrow of old friend Saddam (bad ass) Hussein, and since that job has been done, what is now left to be done? and
Since the latest Pew poll osurvey of Iraqi opinion is that over 70% of Iraqis want the US troops to leave, does the continued refusal of the CoW to leave demonstrate a lack of respect for the democratic rights the Iraqi people to dtermine their own future, or,
Does the refusal to leave demonstrate an admiral determination on the part of right wing nutjobs in ensuring that no person will be left alive until we have ‘won’?
I look forward to your thoughful and considerd response
Posted by Jane Doe on Oct 4, 2006 at 2:26 AM Scorp,
It was as you said, “But the UN mandate (this was the UN Kuwaiti operation, carefully crafted to include the views of a large coalition of UN partners) was for ending the occupation of Kuwait, not for regime change in Iraq. A number of the UN members of the coalition objected to going further in Iraq.”
I doubt if that would console many of the Iraqis who we told we’d back against Saddam. He slaughtered so many that I think even Rumsfeld should have expected NO trust from them this time around.
(Read: “Martyrs’ Day” by Michael Kelly)Ah, yes, the U.N.
Kofi Annan is the perfect metaphor for the U.N. — All politeness and smiles up front, appears concerned and compassionate, sucking up to dictators and pocketing their appreciation, but essentially doing nothing. (As in the 1978 -2006 observers in Lebanon.)
Dreamers look to the U.N., League of Nations, The International Court for justice in the world, but…
No form of law or consensus about governing is worth spit without the clout to back it up. The U.S. has been the international backbone of enforcement since WW2. While we shouldered the bulk of the cost Europe was able to hand out medical plans, a military composed of old men with real day jobs and a less than 30 hour work week. (I just read some are going to have too work as long as 33 hours soon.)
Now they are all pissed off at us.
Solution: Stop all payments to the U.N. Kick them out for non payment of rent. Turn the building into an NCO & Officers’ club. Let them move their operation to Paris or Berlin or Moscow or Darfur.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 4, 2006 at 12:28 PM Jane/John Doe
It would seem that scorp has decided your question deserves as much attention as he has already given it, and I would agree.
Your question rings as hollow as other questions I have heard from past denizens of this site who would pervert the intent of Socratic questioning. It is the Truth Socrates was after, through the exposition of unconsidered opinions. It was not the intent to foster partisan “truths” at the expense of others.
The overt insinuation of your question, that there is no answer, lays your true intent bare.
Yet, something on the news this morning made be think (yes, that is an open invitation to any cheap shots you can muster). Despite the obvious facetious and disingenuous nature of your question, it is certainly valid to ask what our goals and objectives are, and how we are to measure it. Please allow me, my new notable friend, to answer your question with an equal measure of fervor and tongue-in-check misrepresentation.
Looking back over the past few decades in America, across both parties, the most clear indication of democracy (this is assuming, of course, that America is in most respects, a democracy - not a popular notion here, I know, but hey, this is my answer. Get your own), the most clear indication of democracy is, in a word, scandals. A proliferation of scandalous scandals would be a fair measure of an active democracy in work. The more, the freer.
Take Pakistan. Now, most readers would argue that Pakistan is hardly a democracy. So, for the sake of the argument, let’s agree to that. Last night, Frontline did a not-so-bad report on the Return of the Taliban. One issue that came up, in interviews with Pakistani President Musharraf, was the disappearance and later murder of a Pakistani journalist that had the misfortune to embarrass the Pakistani government when they tried to take ownership (and still do) for an obvious American attack on a radical cleric in northwestern Pakistan. It seems this journalist had the audacity to take, and publish, pictures of the remnants of the Predator-fired Hellfire missile that killed the cleric. The journalist disappeared a couple days later and was found murdered about 6 months after that. Scandalous. Well, in America it has indeed turned into a double scandal, the ongoing lies of the Pakistani government and then the journalist’s murder.
Yet in Pakistan, very little.
Now take America. Briefly. Let’s see. Gulf of Tonkin; Watergate; “I have lust in my heart”, Contragate; “Read my lips”; “I didn’t inhale” and “I had no sexual relations with her”; Whitewatergate; Chinagate, Koreagate, blah blah blah.
Yeah, we be a great democracy.
I think it is also fair to say that Iraq under Saddam was no democracy, even thought the excesses of his two little boys were awfully scandalous. Except, without the ever present power of public opinion that is inherent in a democracy, Uday’s sexual excesses of rape and murder were merely, excessive. Public opinion under Saddam was buried six feet down.
So, this morning I see a report on CNN that the Iraqi Police Brigade that has been accused of death squad activities is being disbanded by the elected Iraqi government.
In Allah’s name, why?! Public opinion has no voice over there!
Right?
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 4, 2006 at 3:03 PM John Doe,
er, Jane. Sorry.
Instead of watercolors, maybe you should go back to playing shadow puppet. Just don’t turn around.
The light behind you at the mouth of the cave is rather bright, and I don’t think your eyes are strong enough for it.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 4, 2006 at 3:10 PM Well, at least we have a happy end, in which Jay Cline, Whattheheck and Scorp have definitely agreed on USA’s superiority, their righteousness in kicking about other nations and the inefficiency of the rest of the world. You forgot to mention the WMD which were supposed to be in Irak but that’s a minor point, of course. As to the U.N., it would be a wonderful idea to have it moved elsewhere so you don’t need to be exercising vetoes on its resolutions so often, and the same goes for the Kyoto Protocol. How come in such a perfect world you have built for yourselves drug-addiction continues to proliferate, your jails are so crowded and so few people around the world feel respect for your methods? How silly of me, respect doesn’t buy anything these days, fear is the motivation to be considered. So, Jane Doe, keep quiet and join Maria in water-coloring, or else we will be duly humiliated.
Posted by Maria on Oct 4, 2006 at 9:06 PM Maria…Jane Doe…..Now Redhorse doesn’t know where to start….Not only is Scorpy a no show…mum on a very simple and staightforward question…dealing with the end game of this “terrorist thing”....he won’tdeal with the scandal about Foley either….
So as I see this…Bush ; who ran as a moral , upstanding type of guy…has got no handle on this war…plus there’s a bunch of perverts that are loyal to his agenda…no chld left behind , should be ...no childs behind left….Untouched…?
To show how much these guys don’t get it….Foley’s lawyer keeps repeating that the legal age of consent is 16…in the District of Columbia….Now where’s he going with that statement…..?
Now…as I remember…these were the same set of vindictive…duplicitous…moral bible thumppin’ vagabonds who persecuted ol’ Slick Willy for his little affair with a 25 year old grown woman…but the hypocrites protect a child molesting ..now ,self.professed gay republican….
Damn , even the former Governor of New Jersey…who’s name I can’t recall at the moment…was having gay affairs with adults , not children…..Pedophilia is not about homosexualism…it’s about…...low self esteem in the abuser…and precieved power and control over the victim…...
Foley’s job on the Hill was to chair the ” Missing and Exploited children committee “...ain’t that a bitch..this child molesting wack-job…is suppose to be protecting the nations children and teenagers…I guess one could say he was keeping an eye on the situation….maybe some hands and other body parts also….
So now Congress is suggesting that the Capital Hill Page Program be scrapped…Now as the Redhorse sees this as saying….the republicans want to run the country and this war ...but can’t be trusted , not to attempt too molest your child….NOW THAT IS SOME DEEP DOODOO…....
sCORPY…jAY kLAN…Any comments fellas….............
WTH….Redhorse is so disappointed , if rabbit were here I’m sure he would respond with another book…all I can say is ...you know better…and you should watch the company you keep…...
What’s the ol’ saying…” birds of a feather…flock….etc ” ....Scorp and JK are supporters of a pedophile protecting President and Republican led Senate and Congress…you don’t what to be grouped or should I say groped by these guys…do you….
Redhorse understands that you are struggling with these issues of political corruption and corporate terrorism…and that it can be confusing , for a guy from your generation…but it has become quite clear…that the only bottom line these neo-con ” fellas ” are worried about ; has nothing to do with economics or the fiscal spending budget…..
.WTH…meditate…and watch your grandkids….CLOSELY….especially if a priest or a politician is in the vicinity….....no joke….
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 4, 2006 at 10:57 PM Maria,
You are the one looking for a perfect world.
Speaking for myself, I merely try to live in the one handed to me.
Maybe you should do more of that, speaking for yourself, that is.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 4, 2006 at 11:45 PM Jay Kline….Prefection is not the issue…fool…
Accountablity….competence….reasonability are….......
Any comments on the re-pedophilia-cans Mr.Klux Kline….......Scorpy….........Nata-lie…...........ok…
Nothing to say about Mr.Hastert ; withholding information on this guy Foley…..................?
Silence…..............?
Have the neo-cons of ITT , been dealt a severely devastating…dare I say….” Blow ” to the region below the waist line…......
A proverbial…knee to the Balls…if you will….damn….and right before the november elections….
What’s dumber than shootin’ yourself in the foot…..? Shootin’ yourself in the ” Dick “....
Better get Diebold on the phone…and order some more equipment…also give your ol’ friend bin Laden a call…order up a terrorist strike or two….real quick…...PROTO…..
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 5, 2006 at 12:22 AM Redhorse,
Come on, Redhorse, this is not a Repulican/Democrat issue. (except for election spin ) Unfortunately, this is typical D.C. Good-Old-Boys insider society SOP of protecting their own.
I saw two former pages interviewed last night who Foley had approached ten years ago. (YES, TEN YEARS!) Both turned him down, but kept in contact for some time. Why didn’t they blow the whistle on him?
“You don’t want to burn any bridges with a congressman.”
They were 16 at the time and already totally into the D.C. scene and game plan. Like most news — no info on what they are now doing. They’re probably still working somewhere behind the scenes in our gubment.
If this was an ordinary unfavored citizen we’d see a whole different treatment. Everything from, “It’s just an alternate lifestyle.” to “Let’s string the SOB up!”
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 5, 2006 at 1:01 PM Maria -
... or else we will be duly humiliated.
Look, lady, if you are not already humiliated by your inane, insane, asinine, miasmic left-wind emanations, there is no hope for you.
Kyoto, indeed!
The UN is it? When has the UN protected or enriched anyone’s life, other than that of Saddam Hussein? Have you never heard of the Oil-for-Food Program, the biggest financial scandal in world history, presided over by Kofi Annan and his partners in crime at UN headquarters? Rwanda? Darfur? Kosovo?
The UN is as corrupt and inefficient as the old Soviet Union, and is only being held up by contributions from the democracies. Otherwise the UN would collapse like the SU did.
Leftists’ admiration for the UN is a constant source of wonder. It is as if leftists are enamored of collectivist efforts, regardless of the resulting corruption, inefficiency, and humanitarian disasters. Are all leftists so ignorant that they cannot make a simple analysis of events on the ground?
Free market democracy is the only political idea in the world that tries, and succeeds, in making peoples’ lives better. Socialism has been an ongoing disaster wherever it is tried. Communism is socialism with tens of millions of innocent dead.
Posted by scorp on Oct 5, 2006 at 3:40 PM Scorpy….man you got excuses after excuses for the ongoing murdering rampage that has been ” Free Market Democracy “, ( your terminology not mine)...but bitch and moan like a punk on estrogen about the UN….GIVE IT A BREAK…who runs the UN…the US….so either kiss UN ass , like you kiss everything else that smells of fascism…or take responsiblity for the escalating egregiousness of this immature…infantile administration and the phallus mr.bush….....................seen…
WTH…...Redhorse is not so sure about that , if my memory serves me correctly…most of these cases , that involve children and politicians that are closet sexual predators…the politician is most likely a republican….AND VERY CONSERVATIVE…Look…the catholic church is by nature a very conservative institution…but they have the most horrid record to date of pedophilia…and of covering up the problem….
Capitol Hill has never been a safe place for children left unsupervized by a parent or loved one….never….this ” problem ” is nothing new on Capitol Hill…..
At some point , you have to ask the question…why is it that so many politicians…especially the hard-line conservative…have this problem….? ; And why….when it initially comes to the light of day….nothing is done…...? WTH ,do you really think this guy Foley ; will go to jail….? Why has he NOT BEEN ARRESTED….?
Scorpy…you know the neo-conservative mind-set…care to illuminate the rest of the ITT crowd….?.Please Scorpy , your convoluted Rovian perspective…........
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 5, 2006 at 9:24 PM Jay Cline and scorp,
Your refusal to answer my questions and the hurling of asinine abuse instead of responding to an invitation to deal with complex issues, demonstrates what most people all over the world already know. The Bush administration and its supporters are not only irrational and liars to boot, but they have done more in the last five years to trash the reputation of the US than a cartload of left radicals ever could.You, and people like you in the US, on blogs and in the right wing US Press should understand that the rest of the world looks and takes note, even if you neither know nor care about this fact. If you are the ‘patriots’ you so loudly and rudely claim you are, then you need to both understand and appreciate just how your attitudes and those like them, repel and nauseate even quite conservative people elsewhere. You both need to get a passport, and go do a little travelling and listening. That’s if you could find your way anywhere out of the cave you both appear to live in.
Oh and btw, what is this Jane/John business? Can’t deal with a woman who persists in asking questions and won’t retire gracefully under the the shower of abuse you substitute for raitonal debate?
Posted by Jane Doe on Oct 5, 2006 at 11:41 PM I would like to take a crack at your question Jane.
I’m still waitng for a reply from you on an earlier post when I asked you how we would know when we have won the global war on terror? Do you think you could reply? I am really interested, since it seems reading you bile, that you couldn’t give a rats for anyone other than the US, and so it is important to me and around 6.2 billion other people on this planet that we know when ‘we have won’ as opposed to just knowing that we will always be in a state of perpetual war, until every other culture just lies down and lets the US do what it wants, without let of hindrance
Terrorism is a label. The same label can be applied to many other crimes. The issue at hand is Islamic Terrorism. How will we know we have defused the Jihad. That question is very easy. Islam is at war with every other major religion in the world. Hinduism, Buddhism,Sikhism, Judaism, and Christianity. Check the facts. The “war” will be over when Muslims take their anger to the repressive regimes they live under instead of the world at large. Whatever grievances Muslims have are not excuses for bad behavior. The main culprits are Saudi Arabia, and Iran.
Iran is a Shia nation and Saudi Arabia is a Wahabbi Suni nation. The difference? Who knows obviously it is worth killing for. Both nations are rich and use their wealth to fund terrorism. Both have institutionalized hatred for America and ” The Jew”. Saudi Arabia was the provider of 16 of the 19 hijackers. The problem is the King of Saudi Arabia needs American support to maintain his regime. Obviously the average man on the street in Saudi Arabia are pissed at something. Islam has retained the right of kings, whereas Western society long ago abandoned that philosophy. So to avoid radicals plotting against the status quo, Islam directs its anger outward. Without a real voice in politics, the average man on the street has to vent his anger at something….America. So the anger over every “grievance” the Muslim world has is aimed at America. When that anger is pointed back at the real source of their misery, we will have won.
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 6, 2006 at 2:47 AM So texasindependent,
if I have your drift, we will konw we have won, when civil war breaks out in all the countries that now claim a muslim majority, or when the rest of the muslim world takes up your advice and attacks both saudi arabia and iran. Presumably unitl the rest of the muslim world (1.2 billion people) understand their historic mission as being to forment war and strife in their own backyards, ‘we’ will just have to do it for them.
BTW, terrorism is not a label. It is a word that describes a technique used by a wide variety of groups and movements, not confined to muslims, let me assure you. And if you think that Islam is at war with every other religion in the world, why is it that the vast majority of both countries and the people that inhabit them, are not as convinced as you, that the best way to deal with a few thousand nutjobs out of a total of 1.2 bilion poeple, is to declare war on the 1.2 billion people, whilst ignoring the leader (obl) of the few thousand nutjobs.
Your post is, if you will forgive me, almost impossible to understand either from a logical point of view, or from a real world point of view. No wonder US politics looks the way it does. Scary.
Posted by Jane Doe on Oct 6, 2006 at 3:50 AM TI -
Now do you understand why you don’t bother arguing with Lagomorph?
Islam is at war with every other major religion in the world. Hinduism, Buddhism,Sikhism, Judaism, and Christianity.
You might also note that Islam is also at war with itself. There are many more Muslims (by a large margin) dying in internal domestic conflicts than adherents of all other religions combined. It is always thus. It will always be, until we squash the terrorists and killers. This worked in Japan and Germany, with efficacy, if not without cost. This is the only thing that works when dealing with fanatics (nazis, Japanese militarists, Jihadists).
There was to be a novel connection between war and faith, creating a divine culture that might reward with paradise the slaying of the infidel and the looting of Christian cities. Killing and pillaging were now in the proper context, acts of piety.
- Victor Davis Hanson, Courage and Culture, from the Chapter on Poitiers, October 11, 732, when the Christians under Charles Martell repulsed the Muslims at the point of furthest penetration in western Europe.
I decline to be sacrificed as an act of piety by a Muslim, or anyone else. Fuck it. This is war.
Posted by scorp on Oct 6, 2006 at 5:32 AM ‘Until we squash the terorists and killers’ Oh good.
When are you going to ‘squash’ the killers that infect your own back yard? How will you do that? How will you know you have squashed ‘all the terrorists and killers’? When there is no more killing? Or is it only killing prefaced with the words ‘Allah is great’ that gets you going. Grow up!
Posted by Jane Doe on Oct 6, 2006 at 6:03 AM So Scorp….interesting that you include yourself ( Nazis )...For all that bullshit bravado….you still sitting on your ass….
Jane Doe…ol’ Scorpy is indeed a maniac….he’s so worried about some imaginary terrorist…....Sporky Scorpy won’t see the suicidal killer shootin up his neighborhood school yard…...
Your rhetoric is to lame too believe ol’boy….you ain’t gonna do shit…or more likely that’s all you’ll do….crap on yourself…....
Still not ready to deal with your pedophile lovin’ republican friends…....eeh
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 6, 2006 at 9:29 AM Redhorse,
There is NO WAY Foley is going to jail. To be fair we need to hear all the evidence as to whether he actually broke any laws. The first reports didn’t sound like it, but when more came out all of the boys in the party said, “I don’t really even know this guy.” and all the Dems said, “See, conservatives are no damn good.”
Either way he should not be alllowed to resign — he should be bounced out ASAP.
Not being a Catholic I always wondered how a “celebate” guy could council people about sex in any authoritive way — now I know:-)
All kidding aside, however, I think I know more Democrat Catholics than Republicans, but they seem to limit their liberalism — their religion is generally more rigidly by the “book” (to coin a phrase).
I frankly don’t know that there can be an accurate correlation made that liberal/conservative has anything to do with perversion. I expect there are so many skeletons of all categories in political closets that it becomes a case of not telling on someone for fear of being told on. It was Herbert Hoover’s non-retirement plan.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 6, 2006 at 12:45 PM Well WTH….I agree…Foley won’t go to jail ; if so , not before the november elections…maybe after, he might be arrested…we’ll see…..
Now Redhorse was sent to Catholic schools until high school….As a child I never trusted the whole deal…they used to say things like ...’ no one could know God or go to Heaven unless they were Catholic “...nobody in my family is Catholic…except my mother….so in my childs mind I thought everybody else would go to hell….As an adult…I am a Gnostic…and find the whole issue of religion and the bible interpretation humorous , but also quite dangerous….
As I have stated before…all religions Islam…Judaism…Christianity etc….are misinterpretations of mythology…literalized as history….total untrue and unrelated to the facts as they actually are….......
It is my belief that this total historialzation of mythology as actual history is a big cause of all the problems people have personally as individuals; and more importantly , collectively in the world communty…..
Now how do you get folks to drop all the superstitions and deal with life as it really is…is anyones guess…..Basically we have to be patient , and understand that this is a evolutionary process….
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 6, 2006 at 8:19 PM Redhorse,
At about age forty after about 15 years of intense study of the Bible and the views of diverse theologians, I decided I am an agnostic.
There was a sort of weekend men’s revival meeting the church I belonged to back then and the preacher said, “Turn to the person next to you, give him a big hug and tell him you love him.” Not my kind of thing, for sure.We didn’t even know each other’s names, but we have been best friends ever since — I looked at him and he looked at me and then he said, “How about we just shake hands and I say I like you a lot?” Bingo!
It turned out he had dropped out of seminary, did his time in the army and worked at a bank. We both had come through the same struggle with our early religious upbringing and neither of us goes to any church anymore, except for weddings and funerals.
I view the Bible as a collection of several kinds of writing dumped together as a kind of a stew. Much is an interpretation of inexplicable events. (“It must be God.”) Some is just plain superstition. (“Don’t eat animals with cloven hooves or shell fish.” — probably someone had an allergy or got trichinosis.) A lot is what somebody wanted to be so because it worked to his advantage at the time. (“God has given us this land.”)
What it really tells us is NOT what God is like, but how a segment of mankind’s spiritual concepts evolved. I no longer see things as true because they are in the Bible, but I do believe a lot of things are in the Bible because people have found them to be true.
What I have read of other religions pretty much follows the same pattern. It seems to me that a segment of Islam is in the stage where the Israelites were when, “God told them to kill off everyone not of their tribe including their animals, not to intermingle with the “ungodly”, etc.. Then there were the Crusades at various times, WW1 with “Gott Mitt Uns” (God with us) on German belt buckles. WW2 “Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition” and now “God Bless America” at the end of every presidential address.
Usually it is harmless and I just ignore it. Bush too will pass like Jimmy did.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 6, 2006 at 10:10 PM WTH…..Yeah…..I will go so far as to state that not one piece of literature in that book is useful on a literal basis unless one has gone thru the trouble to study the evolutionary history of that book…base on the pagan mythology..types and symbols…luniolatry…comparative linguistics…Kemetian( Egyptian ) cosmology…etc…
The point being that when folks go on about what god said and it’s in the bible…and gods law…like you said ...it’s just common sense…based on the long evolutionary path that is evolution thru out the history of humans…As long as it’s used in a general perspective; basically it can make some sense and be useful in day to day life….
The real problem…and danger…that sets people at deadly odds with each other is when you begin to get into absolutisms…..ya know…basically…My Religion…or no religion..my god is the only god…we are the only chosen people…etc…..
All of these misinterpretations are based in ignorance of the pagan origins of that particular scripture…and the lack of the proper overview or perspective to accurately interpret what the origin of the gnosis was…
The total interpolation of scripture no matter what the base religion may be ..Christianity , Islam..or Judaism is the cause of most if not all of the ” xenophobic superstitions ” that currently plague humanity ;and is the single most element in the interference of esoterically based cosmologically interned scholarship on this subject matter ever getting a fair and scholarly review….
Hence…we as humanity ; are not totally stupid…for if we knew ; surely many would change their perspective…but alas we are but ignorant of the facts , that brought about the ” cause “...
WTH , have you read any of the writing of Gerald Massey….complete comprehensive work on the origins of scripture and the evolution of language and thought…..
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 6, 2006 at 11:47 PM First Jane .........
The facts don’t lie. Islam is at war with every other major religion on the planet. When Australia is attacked by terrorists perhaps you will face reality. I was a “good” Democrat. Voted for Bill Clinton….twice. Voted for Al Gore in 2000. It took September 11th to open my eyes. I do not want to be attacked. What choice do we have? Talking has solved nothing. The UN is a joke. The Democrats allowed jihadis to attack our embassies, our citizens, and our warships at will. The only response? Words. And a few million dollar missles into a baby food factory and some tents.
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 7, 2006 at 5:20 AM TI…..Gettin’ a little squirrelly…...............eeh….?
Couldn’t be all that covert CIA activity that’s been going on for the last 50 or so years….....could it….TI doesn’t want to be attacked…news flash…what was done on 9/11 was nothing compared to the devastation US policy has cause many Afrikan and Arab nations….
Short response is , you a bitch…because TI…YOU DON’T MIND DISHING OUT THE ABUSE…BUT YA CAN’T TAKE IT….so now all you can do is bitch and moan about what a good amerikan you are…and all kinds of bullshit about what Clinton didn’t do….
The problem with you TI , is the problem with most so-called good amerikans…your so anal-retentively fixated , that you have no clue as too what is really going on…
So while you pick the crusted crumbs of your disingenuous personality disorder…your beloved amerika is moving towards a totalitarian fascist dictatorship…..that you ; my numb-nutted friend have selected into power….
Ever wonder how a guy like Hitler came to power…well dumbo…sit back a watch…cause history will definitely repeat itself…with the support of misinformed xenophobes like yourself….sir..
No more habeus corpus for yu…3 years….
Be a MAN….quit bitchin’......
By the way…dialogue is all yu have now…so yu better talk…there is no more nefarious intimidation factor…you have no choice but to negotiate….......
Furthemore…Redhorse finds it interesting that supercilious chumps like yourself are so gun-ho ; but ain’t tryin’ to get in the battle….Why not sign up…the military is always on the lookout for a few good dummies…too go and get their balls blown off…sign up….
Ya know , your worthy opponent is ready , willing , and able to fight and die for their beliefs…Are you TI…? Vietnam showed amerika that a opponent that is willing to fight and die is a extremely tough man/woman too defeat…they will fight ; they are not thinking about home and apple pies and mom…
Their mothers were killed in so-called surgical bombing attacks..they are not worried about death…
So if you are man enough ; go…sign up… get in the ring with the so-called Islamic terrorist and see for yourself what the deal is…..
Stop all your excuses…and child-like blame game….sign up yu lumpen gumpee…..
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 7, 2006 at 9:50 AM I served how about you? TexasIndependant finds psuedo-commie intellectual Indians to be lazy about civic duty. Smug little Red Pony so sure of his knowledge. Every post is the same tired marxist garbage. You don’t even believe it yourself.
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 7, 2006 at 1:48 PM A little sensitive…..eeh…that’s not to cool for a wannabe killer…you gotta toughen up…son…
Actually I don’t believe ; I know.. ... the Marxist label is a little over the top…furthermore Redhorse has never been lazy….more leftist-socialist ; of the gnostic perspective , than a cummunist…and yes , my ancestry is indigenous and afrikan..we’ve been on this continent before columbus great-granddaddy knew where to put it…..
Now sense you served…go serve some more…you like the war…go on and get your balls blown off…so some kid that only signed up to get money for an education…can get an education…..
Now you mentioned knowledge TI…as much as I am loathed to agree with the TI ...Redhorse must agree on this point…yes , I do possess a confidence in the things that I know..especially in opposition to the child-like rhetoric that the TI….believes to be so….
Knowledge…vs….beliefs….boy don’t you KNOW that knowledge will come out ahead of beliefs every time…
Baseless beliefs such as the ones posted by the TI….superstitions based in racist xenophobically inspired stereotypes is no way to go thru life TI….grow up…
Now in another post you state that you voted for Clinton ; but after 9/11 you woke up and ran to the neo-con agenda like a little punk ass bitch because you didn’t know the world was such a rough and tough place to be a man..
So one can guess that TI is one of them fair weather types , that get nervous when a little danger is afoot…you flip like a little estrogen over-dosed fag at a drag queen convention…Bi-political…bi-polar….anything else you bi about….
Damn…ain’t nothin’ worse than a sensitive cowboy…whats wrong bitches too tight., I thought you boys down in Texas had a sense of humor ; a little satirical wit.. guess not…?
Redhorse is sure that the former representative from florida Mr. Foley can help you out….I heard about what you cowboys do out there on Brokeback mountian , they got you pegged , or is it that your getting pegged….....giddy up little doggy…....
Does your wife know….?
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 7, 2006 at 8:11 PM Now we hear it from Sen. John Warner..a republican and war advocate…back from Iraq…states directly that if the situation on the ground does not change within the next 90 days…that the administration better or rather has to , find new strategies…in addition Sen.Warner also states that all alternatives must be on the table…..
Now Redhorse could have told you that years ago…saved billions of dollars and maybe some LIVES…...This ain’t rocket science TI…...
Isn’t the good senator thoughtful of his boss…even though he’s attempting to distance himself from the Bush neo-con preemptive doctrine…he also gives the president some breathing room…a loophole out…a chance to fire Rumsfeld….
Now the problem here is…with attacks on US troops on the rise…90 days is a long fuckin’ time to wait ; before the administration begins to make doctrinal policy adjustments…
A should have never been done in the first place doctrine ; according to the book of Redhorse…..
Care to respond TexasIndependent…...............
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 8, 2006 at 12:17 PM On most social issues I am liberal. I don’t agree with most of what The Republicans have done. The government has no place in regulating morality. Gay Marriage, Abortion, Drugs, all that is no place for a government to be. I think we are killing our planet. I thought the response to Katrina was criminal on all levels of government. But….............
I am behind the war on terror. We should have invaded Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq, but Afghanistan was necessary. When we catch terrorists we should question them as hard as possible up to physical injury. We have walked into the middle of a pent up civil war in Iraq. Southern Iraq is Shia and they were as brutalized by Saddam as the Kurds. So the Sunnis are the insurgency and the Shia are the targets of suicide bombers. Shia militias retaliate aginst Sunni civilians and the cycle goes on. But leaving Iraq now would bring the terrorists back to America. The only reason we have had five years of no terrorist attacks on embassies, ships, or civilians is the war. Where exactly would you like our troops to retreat to? This is not Vietnam these enemies cross oceans. This is not a Cold War where we spend billions on holes in the ground. This is a war for survival. Am I scared? No. Am I pissed. Yes.
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 9, 2006 at 2:00 AM TI -
And what would be the object of invading Saudi Arabia?
The Middle East is a target-rich environment, but if you are going to take out the terrorists, you should go after the ones with the most capability first. Saudi Arabia has little military and little military capability. Saudi is the locus of the terrorist propaganda wing, but the hostile terrorist firepower is (was) in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and (~) Pakistan. You could take out Saudi at little military cost, but you would just piss off the Islamic firepower if you mess with the holy sites.
President Bush has a finely developed plan for dealing with the terrorists, by serially defeating the biggest threats in sequence, while keeping costs down. In spite of all the complaints, Afghanistan/Iraq is by far (BY FAR!) the least expensive war in which the USA has ever engaged, both for casualties and treasure. Right now the American combat fatalities in the Middle East are less than 5% of Vietnam. They are also substantially less than other anti-terror operations, such as Algeria and Chechnya which were relative slaughterhouses for the French/Russians and the terrorists alike.
The reason that keeping dollar costs down is important is because diverting too much money to the military could upset the economy. If you are paying attention, the American economy is a wonder to behold; low unemployment, low interest rates, high productivity, falling deficits.
The Dims don’t want to hear that, but there it is. The entire cost of Afghanistan/Iraq is less than the rise in GDP this year. I cringe when the Dims talk about capturing Congress so they can raise taxes. President Johnson mismanaged the Vietnam War and the Great Society programs and the economy, and created twenty years of stagnation and recession, culminating in the Carter Catastrophe: sky-high inflation and interest rates above 20%. President Clinton gave us the biggest tax hike in history and the Bubba Bubble, and it all started crashing down in his last year in office. The Dims tried to blame the Bubba Recession on President Bush, but that is nonsense, of course. The damage had been done in previous years, as always happens when you distort the economy.
So, if nobody panics, the plan is working inexorably to our goal. Just don’t try to double the number of troops, because that would necessarily double the costs of manpower, supplies, transportation, etc. And don’t have a premature withdrawal. And don’t try any of the other odd-ball, ick-wad things the Dims are advocating. They are not in the plan, and the Dims are insane, besides.
Posted by scorp on Oct 9, 2006 at 7:00 AM Right wingers, especially Jewish Right wingers have no shame. It is amazing how disgusting they are. These cretinous lizards take dishonesty to new lows.
Posted by Spinoza750 on Oct 9, 2006 at 3:18 PM scorp says: “if nobody panics, the plan is working inexorably to our goal”, and then “the Dims are insane”.
What’s your goal, man? Insulting women because they don’t agree with your reptilian views? You will have to work double-time to reach your goal, since half of the population of your country, according to your words, are insane. It’s so easy to brag behind a computer…
Posted by Maria on Oct 9, 2006 at 10:37 PM First Spinoza…Anti-Semitism is racism. Racism has no place in politics Left or Right.
Scorp.
Saudi Arabia is the honey hole, the money tree, and the fountain of oil money we pay them. Osama is Saudi, most of the hijackers were Saudi. The birthplace of Islam practices its strictest version Wahabbism.I have spent time in the Kingdom and Iran is freaking Las Vegas compared to SA. The problem is Islam at its foundations. Why chop at the branches when you can chop the trunk? Invasion would be a last option, I think we could starve the problem out by drastically reducing our demand for oil. The oil weapon works both ways.Iraq is a dusty,filthy, shithole. Fit for neither man nor beast. Spent time there as well. The only problem with the invasion of Iraq is how in the hell do we get out of this cesspool. We walked into a civil war with 75 years of Sunni oppression over the Shia and Kurds. The hatred between them is all consuming. I say let the country split into three but all hell would break loose over that…..................................................................... ..........
Other than that I am tapped on ideas. The Iraqi’s have to want their own country bad enough to kick the foreign fighters out, and bribe, kill, or negotiate with their homegrown insurgency. Its a huge fucking mess but we have to be very careful with how we get out of it. We have paid too high a cost in blood to fubar Iraq.
2,743 killed and 20,748 wounded as of today. That number is less than Vietnam but somebody’s son,husband,wife,sister,daughter,or friend did not get to come back home. Or came home fucked up.
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 9, 2006 at 11:24 PM TI -
Where were you in Saudi? I spent five years in Dhahran and up near the Kuwaiti border, with shorter assignments in Jubail, Ras Tanura, Uthmaniyah, and in the Asir and the Rhub al-Khali.
I agree, more or less, with everything you say about Saudi, but reducing the role of hydrocarbons in our economy is a long-term prospect, and the terrorists are now. So my question stands:
And what would be the object of invading Saudi Arabia?
The propaganda arm of the Wahhabi/Salafists must be destroyed, but not before the armed militants are serially routed. Otherwise, you would have all the armed terrorists revolting in parallel (as if they are not revolting enough as it is), exactly not according to the plan as I outlined it (and which is working, if slowly). The last thing we need is for every rogue state and armed group in the Middle East to go actively hostile simultaneously.
All the different elements in Iraq have needs and fears. The Sunni are slowly coming to understand that they will no longer be dominant. The Sunnis’ second priority is maintaining their share of the oil wealth, even though none of the oil lies under Sunni tribal grounds. The Shia and Kurds are bent on revenge for past Sunni atrocities, but this revenge is antithetical to growth and prosperity. Such considerations are the stuff of compromise, and of democracy.
Posted by scorp on Oct 10, 2006 at 8:31 AM J. Doe,
Thank you for proving my point. You are not interested in the truth, only partisanship. I gave you a perfectly legitimate answer and you engage in petty insults.
And, no, I have no problem with real women. But, gender bending and multiple personalities is a long established tradition on this sight.
Ain’t that right, lb? Oh, I forgot. He/she stopped posting about the same time as Rabbit/Redhorse.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 10, 2006 at 2:47 PM To put a finer point on it, I have no problem with gender equality.
If you act like an idiot, chivalry will not save you.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 10, 2006 at 2:59 PM So, JD, you asked a question, you got an answer.
No comment? C’mon. Where is that fighting spirit?
Q. What would be a sign of a successful democracy in Iraq?
A. A proliferation of spontaneous scandals.
Response??
Are you, or are you not, interested in a lively debate with a low-browed troll of a man?
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 10, 2006 at 3:28 PM Redhorse doesn’t know were rabbit is…but the horse is present…..............
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 10, 2006 at 7:26 PM You know I have read most if not all these posts and I see one and one thing only and that is the one woman fron costa rica and the other woman from aus feel that all of america is a war mongering nation full of barberus people and that is not we are all about in fact most of us can’t wait untill the year of 2008 when GWB is ouot of office as the american president,because yes as he is going with his policys yes he is going to lead un in to a new wold war.Yes I was born here as a natural citizen and I have to say that as an american we are always bombbarded with mass media bull that is controled by the us government durring the regan years it was russia and iran,durring GHWB it was most of the mid east,durring the clinton years it was still the mid east and africa.Now we have the second gen bush in office and we are just as worse for ware. The point here is that no matter what part of the last hundred years of american history you look at there is always some kind off hate propaganda be it black,mexicans,native americans,or mid easteners. Don’t get me wrong I know in my heart of all hearts that there are some real wack jobs in the world that thrive on death and destruction and need to be taken out by what ever means.But was as a nation need to tell the fat cats up on the hill to min the civ casualits and then maybe the rest of the world might be willing to look in the same direction we are looking in
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