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While the time was indeed long and not knowing the extent would make it even longer, there are many things I would like to know which seem more important. How was he brought to the attention of those who arrested him? Was an anonymous tip involved? Could somebody he knew have wanted to make trouble for him? Mistaken identity? Why was he in Pakistan at that time? Did he go there regularly in connection with his bookstore business in England?
There is mistreatment inferred, but only threats of a possible death sentence are specifically mentioned. We have heard so much about the torture of prisoners that it seems if he had been he would have tol us. Not being familiar with the U.S. military
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 16, 2006 at 6:48 AM
While whattheheck’s response seems logical and points to specific questions of interest, I beleive it to be the most brutal I have ever read. Wrong Place -wrong time? I beleive Habeas Corpus would have covered that one nicely-oh but wait-we don’t have that one anymore-900 or so years of precedence wasn’t enough for us superior americans.
That this man -and oh so many more- was subjected to any of this flies in the face every founding principle of this nation-law or no law. Innocent until proven guilty-evidence not intention-are any of these ringin’ a bell? And spare me the he’s not an american citzen crap-this is what made us great-that we attempted to afford others what we considered to be inalieable rights . It’s some of what made us as americans hold our heads high and nourish our souls.
And this is the crux of it I think-until americans have enough remorse, enough utter and complete sorrow and self awareness that they have not only lost the very soul of this country but subjected the rest of the world to unmitigated arrogance and cold brutality, this nation will continue to sink in the mire of decay. WE WERE WRONG- it’s simple. Excuses and reasoned logic about how we really didn’t do that bad…are so inappropriate a response, it leaves one numb.
To the rest of the world I say this: I am so sorry. I am so sorry that the fear we felt overid our principles-that the fervor of rhetroic overtook our sences. I am so sorry. We were wrong. No matter that I love my country, no matter that I do not abide true terrorism any worth whatsoever-that no people “deserve” this-I am sorry we hurt you. Now,I don’t speak for america and there are those that aren’t sorry at all-they’re hateful bunch.Most lilkely what happens is they come on sites like this and blast their hate by calling their fellow americans of differing opinions names such as apologists or traitors or some other ill founded display of ignorance. I have no excuse for them. I can only tell you what is in my heart-that I am sorry our nation has hurt you. I, and many others, are working to correct this. Please, don’t give up on us.
Posted by kaela on Oct 16, 2006 at 1:31 PM
I on the other hand would like to assure the rest of the world that America has changed. We have always accepted the dregs of your societies that you cast off. We have fought your wars,given you food, and handed out uncounted trillions of dollars to you. If not for the direct involvement of the United States the vast majority of you would be speaking Russian, German, or Japanese. We have conquered polio, smallpox, and given you the tools to feed yourself. If we needed your advice on terrorists we would ask for it.
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 16, 2006 at 7:11 PM
WTH…I don’t know why I’m surprized…
You just don’t understand…do you….
Man…Redhorse feels sorry for you….
This whole operation was sloopy..from beginning to end…period…
I know one thing for sure….when Sen. McCain is alone…he feels the same pain as this guy…you can bet your last dollar…it don’t go away that eazy…..
This shit reminds me of the Klan on growth hormones.; when those murderin’ thugs go out ...wildin’..lookin’ for any unfortunate black person they could find…and torture..
Mr. Moazzam Begg was probably spared the worst treatment , because of the simple fact that he spoke english…therefore he was a possible threat to do what he ended up doing…writing about and talking about his extremely tragic experience…..
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 16, 2006 at 7:17 PM
TexasIndependent….All the Redhorse can say is…you are a bigger bitch than that fag Foley….
Yeah…the dregs..like when your family plopped its filthy ass on these shores…
Europe looked at the amerikas ...as a penal colony…where all the low-lifes and no counts were sent….
You’re such a dumb-ass…you forget you didn’t speak english when your family got here….Russian , German…what the fuck are you smokin’...fool..
Look jack-ass…pull the log out your ass..and let some of that toxic gas out of your rectum…that is where your thoughts originate…........
And this WE…shit…..TI….certain individuals have done great things…I find it interesting that a low-brow neanderthal such as yourself , is included in all the hard work , sacrifice and dedication of someone you have never meet or will ever meet….
Add credit grabber to your list…
Furthermore who is this “you ” person that is continuely mentioned…“who” is ” you ” that’s what I would like to know…...........true jackass…
Typikal Amerikan arrogance..polio , smallpox…european amerikans gave smallpox to the native population…Both viruses were brought to the new world by folks that look like yourself..(.along with a few different types of venereal dis-eases.)..That’s like shootin’ a guy in the foot 3 or 4 times..and then claiming you saved his life…BEFORE, you gave him a band-aid….............what a moron…..
Now Redhorse understands more clearly , how the Nazi party came into power in Germany during the 30’s…dumb motherfuckers like you..not willing to think past the last fart…..
You are a totally FUCKED UP INDIVIDUAL…in form and content…....
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 16, 2006 at 7:33 PM
This was hard to read all the way through… Texasindependent, Givers never Remember, Receivers never forget. What we did in the past was for the better of the entire planet including ourselves. Do not use this as an excuse for modern day mistreatment of human beings.
Redhorse, stick to the matter at hand please.
My condolances go out to Mr. Moazzam Begg and his entire family. Nothing this country can ever do will give him 2 years of his life back. But what he has done, will help to insure uncanny acts of US neglegance will never happen again. This is only 1 case of hundreds out there. Peoples lives are being ruined and families are being torn apart. Everyone needs to stay active and use their brains in a positive manner through this mess..
Posted by Justin on Oct 16, 2006 at 9:37 PM
Justin…You can soft soap that fool if you want too…but Redhorse is goin to say what the fuck is on my mind…....ok…
Again with this ” we “...mess..
Amerika has never done 3 ounces worth of good , that wasn’t forced out of it by progressive working people-centered movements…
Only by the ” blood in my eye.”..was Amerika brought to the table of attrition….ever…
And only for the photo op…basically…
So my friend Justin..”.you can stick too the matter at hand.”..whatever is meant by that…?..Redhorse sees a much larger stink…and sense I pay the internet bills around this barn…me things I shall post as I please….........true…
Further…250 odd years of slavery…then 80 years of apartied ” Jim Crowism “....finally the so-called civil rights and human rights movements of the 60’s…the assassinations and all that mess…now ” WE “...for the last 25 years have a growing neo-con fascist agenda , in response to the minute victories of the 60’s and early 70’s…
What great works of humanity are you speaking about Justin…Amerikas been too busy killin’ folks…to help much…Most aid is either window dressing or after the covert op CIA genocide machine does it’s thing…...
Hate to rain on your parade…but the reality is different…than the rhetoric….....
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 16, 2006 at 10:17 PM
Yeah tex, who needs that crap on the Statue of Liberty. Screw “huddled masses” and “downtrodden.”
And now Habeas Corpus.
Who’s going to speak up for you Tex? Not I said the hen. Not I said the goat. Not I said the sheep. Not I.
Posted by PoBoy on Oct 17, 2006 at 1:41 AM
the above comments scare me, it is sad when so many completely miss the point, using tragedy to promote thier meaningless agendas.
I pity America, the America I believe in doesn’t believe in torture. Mr. Begg’s book is something that should be read by everyone. It is not a “bashing” book, and written beautifully. It is proven that if a living organism, for whatever reason, no longer needs a part of its body, the process of evolution rids the organism of it ... where does that leave human beings in regards to their mind?
Posted by eyesoftheworld on Oct 17, 2006 at 6:15 AM
Kaela, Redhorse,
Kaela, you evidently lead a very sheltered life and are quick to judge if,
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 17, 2006 at 12:02 PM
Kaela, Redhorse,
Kaela, you evidently lead a very sheltered life and are quick to judge if,
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 17, 2006 at 12:11 PM
whattheheck lives in denial. he read the account with the eye of an appeaser, an enabler, confident that he would never be subjected to the same treatment. such things only happen to them. whattheheck then offers what he believes to be reasoned thought, ignoring the content of Moazzam’s story. and comes back does it again, saying he didn’t say what he said. it’s the same thinking that allows man’s inhumanity to man to recur again and again in our shared experience. i have sparred with him before. he intentionally doesn’t get it and, in fact, refuses to see the flawed logic of his positions.
‘we only have his word’ ... bite me you phony half-baked intellectual ... this is a family-man who was scooped up illegally, held illegally, forced to swear that fallacious statements concerning him were truth under threat of physical harm or death. then spent all his time writing his defense or rebuttal to his forced confession. think about it ... he had to ask which direction the sun rose - he was drugged whenever moved - he was held for 2 frickin’ years. unfortunately, i would trust this man with the truth before anyone in our administration - just think of the implications of that ...
as a war veteran, i find it shameful and saddening and deeply troubling that my government has signed into law a permission-slip for crimes against humanity by all states worldwide. i can just hear the indignant outrage and huffing and puffing from the same bunch of self-righteous hypocrites had such a brazen bill been publicly passed by our foes of the cold war.
as a citizen of a so-called-democracy, i share responsibility for this and other crimes committed in my name. i humbly apologize to Moazzam, his family, and the hundreds of thousands, no, the millions of other souls dragged into this ideological travesty and reminder of how far humankind has allowed itself to devolve. we had such great promise… may our mutual creator have mercy upon us all.
all of us, except, of course, texasindependent ...
hourglass
Posted by hourglass on Oct 18, 2006 at 3:21 AM
hourglass says,
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 18, 2006 at 6:21 AM
whattheheck tries again.
that he was illegally abducted, drugged and held incommunicato is beyond question, you dolt. that is what america does now. how he spent his free time, i’ll admit i have to take at his word. the legislation that jr signed is meant to retroactively absolve the admin and their agents of war crimes.
oh, and no, i didn’t read it here first. i first became aware of my nation’s horrific and illegal treatment of prisoners when a brave national guardsman disclosed the atrocities committed at abu graib. now the privates and sergeants are in prison - but not the perps - not the smart guys with other priorities. we all know that privates and sergeants set policy.
i have seen photos from there and elsewhere your media won’t show your fragile, deluded fat asses. cause then, you might question your leaders and america can’t have that until the coup de tat is complete.
we can’t get photos from our newer gulags - the perps learned - as far as the red cross/crescent is concerned - they don’t exist ...
“who needs reason?” - how dare you imply you offer reason.
“who needs evidence or a different opinion?” - i would laugh if it weren’t so dismaying ... it’s all over the world - there are hundreds, no, thousands of cases. your alphabet soup of news providers just keep you entertained or subdued with pundits and talking heads. and you think you can offer an opinion of any worth? you live in a bubble of fear, denial and shame. so many of these captured were paid for and scooped up because of local feuds and vendettas - you built your fence a foot onto my property… you took more than your fair share of water.. you took, you stole, you dishonored, you, you, you.
do you have any idea how many people are incarcerated now at the locations that can be monitored? or how many of these have provable, evidentiary ties to organized terror? i know for certain that we have no idea how many have been ‘rendered’ to other govs for some good ‘ol really gruesome torture or to our new, renovated gulags. how many convictions have there been? - you know they’d be crowing about each and every one…
oh, and by the way, we now occupy iraq. no, the war is over. we, and a couple of our criminal friends, illegally attacked, defeated and set up a new gov there. brave and honorable that too. we all but destroyed their military back with papa, then sanctions for years that only hurt the little guy and no fly zones and other fun stuff for the citizenry. oh, and the uprising we encouraged in the south and then hid under mama’s petticoat. tough guys all. honorable too.
we are not at war with terror - it’s an absurd notion - terror is a tactic. if there really was a war on the terrorists who supposedly took out norad, we would have pursued bin forgotten to the ends of the earth. no silly child, our intention was to muscle in and confiscate a people’s natural resources, while establishing a libertarian type free market economy in the troubled heart of islam and, of course, our own little oasis for our military to get us out of bin forgotten’s homeland. taxpayer military to secure corporate profits and world domination. wow what a fantastical, honorable and wonderful notion. corporate welfare. welfare for the rich.
this iraq debacle will end with a three-way split of iraq. we have accomplished there what bin forgotten couldn’t in iraq - women back to burqas and out of the workplace. sharia law. a theocratic gov. great job all you smart, rich guys.
war on terror… my gawd, you’re simple and pitiable.
hourglass is out of sand
Posted by hourglass on Oct 18, 2006 at 8:30 AM
WTH….You have gone insane….
Mr Beggs credibility is not the issue…the issue is , WTH and your denial syndrome….
WTH and Redhorse have dialogued in the past…mostly agreeing to disagree…correct…
Now on this one WTH…Redhorse is asking you to trust , that this story is true…
People are being renditioned…the administration has admitted this…prisoners at GITMO do not commit suicide , because the tennis courts were closed for repaving…they kill themselves because they’re in a living hell , and will do anything to get out….
We know these things happened…the administration again…grudgingly let this information out….
So the stretch is not that far….
In a word WTH….EMPATHIZE….you need to stop all this paranoia and empathize….
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 18, 2006 at 1:54 PM
whattheheck, i apologize for losing my temper with you. i shouldn’t have, you can’t help it.
it’s just shows how tragically your free press has been compromised. my friend, you may consider me gullible and narrowminded and worse, but sadly, i’ m just better informed.
Posted by hourglass on Oct 18, 2006 at 4:32 PM
“Some where under the apple tree, I sold you and you sold me”
Saddest song ever written.
Better than that old chestnut tree, eh?
Posted by minerva_jones on Oct 18, 2006 at 9:12 PM
Redhorse,
If you will carefully read what I wrote, you will see that I am not saying this didn
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 19, 2006 at 11:17 AM
Well…WTH….issues like this one will always be a crossroads for the Horse and WTH….
Although it is clear to me that you are guilty of over analysis…and should accept the word of Mr.Begg…his being in Pakistan is not the point…wrong place , wrong time , has no relevance….
Truely if somebody…kidnapped a loved one of yours…you wouldn’t ask these questions…thats what is going on…only the KIDNAPERS are federal agents….
Now the Gov’t is going to say something different…; but all of us know something is not right when citizens of any nation , can be picked up and imprisoned for no reason…
That’s supposed to be Saddam’s nonsense…not the US….not Amerika….and against the Geneva Convention…a war crime..no less…
So you think/say this nation is at war…..But…who started the war…the US did….
What happened on 9/11…has nothing to do with what is going on hear…this is about the slow…steady….erosion of everybodies rights as citizens….
9/11 was an attack…one that at this point looks pretty suspicious…a lot of people still think a plane and fire brought those buildings down…but the live video footage clearly points too a much more complex set of circumstances…that said…
We will again agree to disagree and leave it at that…
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 19, 2006 at 5:39 PM
Redhorse,
It
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 21, 2006 at 1:02 PM
Well WTH…at this point nothing the Redhorse can say or think of will make a difference…
US policy has away been imperialistic by nature…
European is no different…this being the case…bad discussions have always been made…this current administration being worst than others…but the point is…” there is no way out of a bad situation…unless there is contrition…”
Now I understand from your perspective that may seem weak…but WTH…any fair analysis would have to consider the contingency of a sincere peace offer….
No one viewpoint is totally correct…but one thing is clear to this Redhorse…and that is ...” that the US can not win this so-called ; war on terrorism…period…bad idea from the get go…poorly planned…zero feasibility…..
The so-called terrorist are no more than frustrated youth , opportunistically exploited by COINTELPRO type provocateurs….
No doubt covertly financed thru CIA sources….
Bottom line dream scenario for US foriegn policy….
1) pull the plug on the covert non-sense…
2) take it on the chin, as far as blowback…while simultaneously…
3) begin to make sincere monetary and policy reparations to all parties adversely affected…
These three basic principles would do more to clear up this mess than further violence…it seems to me that a little maturity on the part of the US would go a long way…
Commonsense bullshit like not talking to N.Korea….totally incompetent foriegn policy..that resulted in what…another nuke on this planet….
With the US arsenal at somewhere in the 10 ‘s of thousands range…it would seem that other nations might be concerned…
...ya gotta look at it from the others perspective….empathize….
Well thats my soap box…...just a thought…
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 21, 2006 at 6:06 PM
Redhorse.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 23, 2006 at 6:40 AM
WTH….Redhorse will not argue over points of history , because that is not what I am talking about…As usual WTH…you wear your heart on your sleeve…thats why Redhorse can see through your bullshit…not unlike a clown like Jay Cline….maybe its your midwestern sensiblities…..
But anyway , the main point I was making is that no matter what happened when , are how , in the past….contrition…sincere remorse for wrongdoings in the past….reparation due for damages ////...
Think metaphorically WTH…don’t take it personally..look past what other nations have failed to do , and think , what is the correct thing for Amerika…
.As a business person , I’m sure from time to time billing discrepanies have come up…were maybe you over charged a client, without the mistake coming to the attention of the client…Being honest and having a measure of integrity…you bring the subject to the attention of the client and workout an equitable solution…correct…
US population is 5% of the world population , but the nation uses 80 to 85 % of the world resources…now those resources weren’t given to the US…those resources were either expropriated by 1) slavery ; 2) war ; 3) colonialism ( now neo-colonialism )....or better known as ” free trade “..
NAFTA type shit…like that super highway from Mexico to Canada that you don’t hear anything about in the news….”.same song different era…”.
So it really doesn’t matter who cuts the cake…ya gotta be ” fair ” at this point in the game…cause the rest of the world is puttin’ the US on notice….Either you do the right thing, or this problem will continue…..
And WTH…lets be real…this whole 9/11 terrorist bug came out of the minds of those neo-cons…the whole thing points to them…
Now I ‘m sure it hurts your heart to think that your fellow Amerikans would do something like that…but truth has always been stranger than fiction…
As a matter of note…I think guys like honestjoe should maybe research this thing from the prospective of the Oklahoma City bombing…and McViegh…possible connections with the Christian Identity crowd or the Aryan Nationalist…links to the Saudis thru some lobbyist organization…..that’s another possible scenario…..
Redhorse does not at this point believe that 19 guys with box cutters pulled this thing off…at best these guys were flunkies for a much larger agenda thats base is without a doubt ; home grown in the good ol’ USA….
If the UN is so ineffective…ask why…who really runs the place..we know the answer , again the US…
Proxy leadership….gets proxy results….
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 23, 2006 at 8:27 PM
Redhorse,
You see our 5% of the world population “using 80 -85% of the world’s resources” and I see it used to develop polio vaccine, rescue tsunami victims, provide new time saving and life saving inventions, etc.
Much of the good has come from businesses and individuals
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 24, 2006 at 5:51 AM
WTH…Keep dreamin’....the polly anna act is for kids…..
You know as well as I that 80% of the world resources is over kill thievery….
Save your dream scenario rhetoric for Natalie…...
Contrition…take responsiblity….pay reparations….....
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 24, 2006 at 10:29 AM
Redhorse,
Your response to my view of the U.S. was:
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 29, 2006 at 6:46 AM
WTH….That is not the point…whether or not this nation is richer or can give out more money…..
If your son was constantly involved in questionable behavior that was unacceptable to you but acceptable to others , would you address his transgressions…or just say..”.well… the kid scored 30 points against so and so high school and he is my son so…its ok….nobodies perfect….”
No you wouldn’t…you wouldn’t be much of a parent if you didn’t do something about your sons behavior…but these are tougher issues , right…more is at stake…but the very Amerikans who swear allegiance to this nation…continue to look the other way…when it comes to calling a spade a spade…..
People go through hell and high water to get here because Amerika has stolen all their chips…..
Now I’m sure you think everything this nation has was honest booty…but without 300 years of slavery….and the scholarship of folks like Elijah McCoy….Amerika wouldn’t be jack….
You owe the rest of the world…but are irresponsible in your reparational behavior….
Look at the rhetoric on Iraq…folks talking like this thing is the Iraqis fault…when the situation was totally avoidable….
Just a lotta Bullshit snake-tongueism…...
Being perfect is not the issue…its the race to get away with being excessively evil….Just cause my neighbor craps in the middle of the road , doesn’t mean I have too…..
It seems quite clear from my perspective, but…then again….there’s no love lost from where I’m sitting….
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 29, 2006 at 8:31 AM
Redhorse,
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 29, 2006 at 4:36 PM
WTH…Yes…but whether you like it or not…slavery is the foundation of the capitalist economy ...you so admire…you profit from it ....
I have stated this book in the past…Eric Williams…Capitalism and Slavery….read it…....
Until the 1960’s , Amerika was a defacto apartheid nation…
Sense then many white Amerikans….mostly so-called Reagan Republicans have been working overtime to get back to the ” good ol’ days ” of Jim Crowism….
Only this time with a class issue attached…so now they want your money….also…..
Of course you don’t think of that when you ” morph ” into your ” Amerika can do no wrong ” , routine…..
Like most white folks you really don’t see or thing about that…your white skin privilege , blocks it all out….
You see us…but you really don’t…
Just like the Iraqis….it’s always ” those people “.....
Amerika invades a nation….destroys the place…for no reason…and now its the Iraqis fault the US hasn’t left yet….
Denial and lack of responsiblity…...
If not for slavery,,,Afrika might not be in the mess they are in now….
Amerika would never have survived the war of independence….
And you would be working and living in good ol’ England…or somewhere in Europe….
Sense Redhorse is of Afrikan and native heritage…their is no telling where or what…. Redhorse would be doing….
Maybe running the place…ya know….apparently you don’t…....
What influence does the CIA have in Afrika….In Search of Enemies….John Stockwell…..
Now WTH….you are starting to sound like ol’ girl Natalie…
Redhorse is still his ol’ radical progressive self…....
What gives…..?
This is not a ” generalizational topic “...if it happens to you….
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 29, 2006 at 5:41 PM
Redhorse,
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 30, 2006 at 10:01 AM
WTH….First….nobody accused you or your ancestors of being slave holders….the point is that no matter when or how or why your ancestors came here…they , like all europeans have been able to benefit from the privilegeS that your lack of melanin , allows in this country…..
Your comments are interesting on so many points…..
You know your family history…and exactly how their got here….
Despite the hardship your ancestors experienced…yu seem to lack empathy for others currently experiencing the same if not greater misfortunes….
Despite over 300 years of affirmative action for white males…now you think special considerations for other groups is uncalled for….
Racism is the economic depravation of a particular group of people by another based on the color of their skin….
Where have I done that to you WTH….?
It is very telling that you would thing that too be compensated for work done is a ransom….I guess that is how you felt about paying your employees…right..
No one is asking for a payback from you WTH…
The gov’t passed and has payed out reparation too others..but never Afrikan Amerikans…despite the fact that the original reparation bill was based on the suffering of my ancestors….
If not for their ( Afrikans ) hard work , your family would have had no place to come to…..but do Afrikan Amerikan get any credit for the sacrifices made then or now….no.
If Afrikan Amerikans were truely considered citizens of this nation…no legislation would have been needed…
But the fact that legal remedies have been enacted….speaks volumes about the true nature of our tenuous status as citizens…
White folks are excessively sensitive about racial matters….even though they are not the recipient of the hate….
Now why is that WTH…?
Maybe a guilt complex….?.
Feeling bad about the racist jokes your friend told at the last cocktail party you went to…or maybe it was at the hardware store…..the little league game…..?
Why is Redhorse all of a sudden the racist…interesting avoidance technique…...
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 31, 2006 at 12:03 AM
Redhorse,
I disagree with your definition of racism
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 31, 2006 at 7:00 AM
WTH…Don’t try to flip the script now…
You have never experienced racism, you have no clue….
Redhorse had to explain to you the reason for Afrikan Amerikan organizations…
Now you gonna tell me about what racism is….
Ain’t that a bitch….
Totally different subject….
You gonna vote next week….?
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 31, 2006 at 1:06 PM
Redhorse,
I will be voting. We use computers (not my preference), but with a paper trail.
There are two independents available on our ballot and I will be votiing for one. He iis a write-in with little chance, but it is in protest of the globalization our current congressman has pushed for years.
I honestly don’t care which party “wins” the congressional majority since neither will do anything worthwhile. At least with a deadlock they can’t do as much damage as they would like either. (That’s as upbeat as I can muster.)
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 31, 2006 at 2:44 PM
Damn WTH….in the mist of our little turmoil…we agree…I will be voting for green party candidates…as much as Redhorse finds the current administration….ugly…the Dems…aren’t much better…I will vote absentee , paper ballot…and progressive…..
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 31, 2006 at 4:06 PM
Redhorse,
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 1, 2006 at 6:48 AM
“Abandon Hope, All Who Enter Here”
I think what Dante said was more like, “Abandon every hope, you who enter.”
Posted by restifo on Nov 1, 2006 at 12:41 PM
So WTH…what do you think of Sen.Barak Obama….as a possible presidential candidate….and as a senator….
Redhorse thinks he’s a good man…but the presidency is a little too soon…plus he and his wife have small children…and the White House is not a good place to raise a family…in this Horses opinion….
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 1, 2006 at 3:26 PM
Redhorse
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 2, 2006 at 7:27 AM
WTH…yeah….I think he should what until his children are older…give it another 10 years or so…run for Governor first….
The problem with Obama is that , people tend to believe that he’s some sort of magic bullet….getting on the fast track can ruin a guy….
This is the problem with Lt. Gov Micheal Steele in Maryland…the guy wants to be the next Senator…so he hitches himself to Bush…and the Republican party…now with Bush in the tank…he’s trying to distance himself….but folks aren’t buying that mess…
I’ve never trusted the fast track social climber types , cause they will say and do anything to get what ” they want….”
This guy Steele has been a Republican for 20 years , but now that he needs the backing of Afrikan Amerikan Democracts…his got bumper stickers that say ....” Steele Democrat “...you never hear him say that he is a Republican unless asked directly by a reporter….
Plus…he and his darling little sister…ripped off Mike Tyson for about 15 to 20 million in a divorce settlement…that Steele was not legally licensed to adjudicate….
Not only did he pimp his sister…( she meet and married Tyson while he was doing time on that rape beef )...then he screws the man out of his money…no different than any other gold digger on the block….This is how he got his money….
For Sen.Obama to fast track himself…in my personal opinion , would be a big mistake…..too many pit falls…to much stuff in the wind at one time….
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 2, 2006 at 4:29 PM
True…true…so true…many politicians look good at first…but time and experience will tell the true story….
Redhorse is more skeptical of the profession…than of the man…..
My feeling is that the republicans have over played their hand…a few times…mostly the executive branch…but the fall out will come down on them all….
Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld have made their billions and now it’s time to kiss off the rest of the party…who of course were used as a buffer for their criminality….
What I am interested in seeing is what happens after these thugs leave office…..
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 4, 2006 at 9:31 AM
Well WTH…If I’m not mistaken, that super-highway from Mexico to Canada is coming right your way…maybe you can get contracts printing brochures for Mexican and Canadian political candidates ; bad joke…..
Now you know Redhorse thought this whole war against terrorism was a bunch of bullshit from the get go…
I could open a psychic hotline behind these guys….Redhorses Psychic Political Hotline….our motto is….when you come to your senses…call us….1-800-NOTAWAR….
Iraq was poorly planned , because it was a poor idea in the frst place….
60% of the Amerikan people are against this war….but Cheney and his boys say they are going to do what they what regardless of public opinion….
Ya gotta take responsiblity…and ya gotta get out….period.
The next president has to be his own man on this issue…at this point in the game…the intelligence reports or daily briefings can only tell you so much…the policy has too be workable and based on reality…which has long sense been on vacation in this Bush administration….
So the question is….Can you fix the information machine and hit the ground running ; simultaneously…...
Remember…Smedley Butlers words….war is a racket….
Sense when has a racketeer…been a harbinger of accurate non-ostentatious information…..
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 5, 2006 at 9:15 AM
Redhorse,
Well, my guys lost. So another term with the same governor (although he may be indicted) and the same NAFTA lovin’ “Representative.”
At least Rumsfeld finally is out.
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 9, 2006 at 10:24 AM
WTH….Redhorse did ok…
Fenty is the Mayor of DC….
O’Malley beat Erhlich for Governor of Md…
Cardin beat Steele for the Md.Senate seat…...
Now we will have to see what happens…..
And Allen lost to Webb in the Va. Senate seat….
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 9, 2006 at 1:26 PM
RH,
After I read Webb’s book, “Born fighting,” last year I e-mailed him and surprisingly got a reply. We exchanged a couple more and he seemed like a very interesting guy. I hope he wins.
I wonderwhat would have happened if VA had been a computer voting state without a paper backup.
A friend got me to this article by David Gergen
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 9, 2006 at 2:40 PM
Well Allen just conceded…acknowledging defeat to Webb…
Now if somebody can just do something about that naked guy running around the White House….
At least put a robe on the fool….
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 9, 2006 at 4:20 PM
I heard about Allen throwing in the towel right after I last wrote. Earlier I heard they thought it could take as long a two weeks to do a recount
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 10, 2006 at 7:18 AM
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Reader Comments
While the time was indeed long and not knowing the extent would make it even longer, there are many things I would like to know which seem more important. How was he brought to the attention of those who arrested him? Was an anonymous tip involved? Could somebody he knew have wanted to make trouble for him? Mistaken identity? Why was he in Pakistan at that time? Did he go there regularly in connection with his bookstore business in England?
There is mistreatment inferred, but only threats of a possible death sentence are specifically mentioned. We have heard so much about the torture of prisoners that it seems if he had been he would have tol us. Not being familiar with the U.S. military
While whattheheck’s response seems logical and points to specific questions of interest, I beleive it to be the most brutal I have ever read. Wrong Place -wrong time? I beleive Habeas Corpus would have covered that one nicely-oh but wait-we don’t have that one anymore-900 or so years of precedence wasn’t enough for us superior americans.
That this man -and oh so many more- was subjected to any of this flies in the face every founding principle of this nation-law or no law. Innocent until proven guilty-evidence not intention-are any of these ringin’ a bell? And spare me the he’s not an american citzen crap-this is what made us great-that we attempted to afford others what we considered to be inalieable rights . It’s some of what made us as americans hold our heads high and nourish our souls.
And this is the crux of it I think-until americans have enough remorse, enough utter and complete sorrow and self awareness that they have not only lost the very soul of this country but subjected the rest of the world to unmitigated arrogance and cold brutality, this nation will continue to sink in the mire of decay. WE WERE WRONG- it’s simple. Excuses and reasoned logic about how we really didn’t do that bad…are so inappropriate a response, it leaves one numb.
To the rest of the world I say this: I am so sorry. I am so sorry that the fear we felt overid our principles-that the fervor of rhetroic overtook our sences. I am so sorry. We were wrong. No matter that I love my country, no matter that I do not abide true terrorism any worth whatsoever-that no people “deserve” this-I am sorry we hurt you. Now,I don’t speak for america and there are those that aren’t sorry at all-they’re hateful bunch.Most lilkely what happens is they come on sites like this and blast their hate by calling their fellow americans of differing opinions names such as apologists or traitors or some other ill founded display of ignorance. I have no excuse for them. I can only tell you what is in my heart-that I am sorry our nation has hurt you. I, and many others, are working to correct this. Please, don’t give up on us.
I on the other hand would like to assure the rest of the world that America has changed. We have always accepted the dregs of your societies that you cast off. We have fought your wars,given you food, and handed out uncounted trillions of dollars to you. If not for the direct involvement of the United States the vast majority of you would be speaking Russian, German, or Japanese. We have conquered polio, smallpox, and given you the tools to feed yourself. If we needed your advice on terrorists we would ask for it.
WTH…I don’t know why I’m surprized…
You just don’t understand…do you….
Man…Redhorse feels sorry for you….
This whole operation was sloopy..from beginning to end…period…
I know one thing for sure….when Sen. McCain is alone…he feels the same pain as this guy…you can bet your last dollar…it don’t go away that eazy…..
This shit reminds me of the Klan on growth hormones.; when those murderin’ thugs go out ...wildin’..lookin’ for any unfortunate black person they could find…and torture..
Mr. Moazzam Begg was probably spared the worst treatment , because of the simple fact that he spoke english…therefore he was a possible threat to do what he ended up doing…writing about and talking about his extremely tragic experience…..
TexasIndependent….All the Redhorse can say is…you are a bigger bitch than that fag Foley….
Yeah…the dregs..like when your family plopped its filthy ass on these shores…
Europe looked at the amerikas ...as a penal colony…where all the low-lifes and no counts were sent….
You’re such a dumb-ass…you forget you didn’t speak english when your family got here….Russian , German…what the fuck are you smokin’...fool..
Look jack-ass…pull the log out your ass..and let some of that toxic gas out of your rectum…that is where your thoughts originate…........
And this WE…shit…..TI….certain individuals have done great things…I find it interesting that a low-brow neanderthal such as yourself , is included in all the hard work , sacrifice and dedication of someone you have never meet or will ever meet….
Add credit grabber to your list…
Furthermore who is this “you ” person that is continuely mentioned…“who” is ” you ” that’s what I would like to know…...........true jackass…
Typikal Amerikan arrogance..polio , smallpox…european amerikans gave smallpox to the native population…Both viruses were brought to the new world by folks that look like yourself..(.along with a few different types of venereal dis-eases.)..That’s like shootin’ a guy in the foot 3 or 4 times..and then claiming you saved his life…BEFORE, you gave him a band-aid….............what a moron…..
Now Redhorse understands more clearly , how the Nazi party came into power in Germany during the 30’s…dumb motherfuckers like you..not willing to think past the last fart…..
You are a totally FUCKED UP INDIVIDUAL…in form and content…....
This was hard to read all the way through… Texasindependent, Givers never Remember, Receivers never forget. What we did in the past was for the better of the entire planet including ourselves. Do not use this as an excuse for modern day mistreatment of human beings.
Redhorse, stick to the matter at hand please.
My condolances go out to Mr. Moazzam Begg and his entire family. Nothing this country can ever do will give him 2 years of his life back. But what he has done, will help to insure uncanny acts of US neglegance will never happen again. This is only 1 case of hundreds out there. Peoples lives are being ruined and families are being torn apart. Everyone needs to stay active and use their brains in a positive manner through this mess..
Justin…You can soft soap that fool if you want too…but Redhorse is goin to say what the fuck is on my mind…....ok…
Again with this ” we “...mess..
Amerika has never done 3 ounces worth of good , that wasn’t forced out of it by progressive working people-centered movements…
Only by the ” blood in my eye.”..was Amerika brought to the table of attrition….ever…
And only for the photo op…basically…
So my friend Justin..”.you can stick too the matter at hand.”..whatever is meant by that…?..Redhorse sees a much larger stink…and sense I pay the internet bills around this barn…me things I shall post as I please….........true…
Further…250 odd years of slavery…then 80 years of apartied ” Jim Crowism “....finally the so-called civil rights and human rights movements of the 60’s…the assassinations and all that mess…now ” WE “...for the last 25 years have a growing neo-con fascist agenda , in response to the minute victories of the 60’s and early 70’s…
What great works of humanity are you speaking about Justin…Amerikas been too busy killin’ folks…to help much…Most aid is either window dressing or after the covert op CIA genocide machine does it’s thing…...
Hate to rain on your parade…but the reality is different…than the rhetoric….....
Yeah tex, who needs that crap on the Statue of Liberty. Screw “huddled masses” and “downtrodden.”
And now Habeas Corpus.
Who’s going to speak up for you Tex? Not I said the hen. Not I said the goat. Not I said the sheep. Not I.
the above comments scare me, it is sad when so many completely miss the point, using tragedy to promote thier meaningless agendas.
I pity America, the America I believe in doesn’t believe in torture. Mr. Begg’s book is something that should be read by everyone. It is not a “bashing” book, and written beautifully. It is proven that if a living organism, for whatever reason, no longer needs a part of its body, the process of evolution rids the organism of it ... where does that leave human beings in regards to their mind?
Kaela, Redhorse,
Kaela, you evidently lead a very sheltered life and are quick to judge if,
Kaela, Redhorse,
Kaela, you evidently lead a very sheltered life and are quick to judge if,
whattheheck lives in denial. he read the account with the eye of an appeaser, an enabler, confident that he would never be subjected to the same treatment. such things only happen to them. whattheheck then offers what he believes to be reasoned thought, ignoring the content of Moazzam’s story. and comes back does it again, saying he didn’t say what he said. it’s the same thinking that allows man’s inhumanity to man to recur again and again in our shared experience. i have sparred with him before. he intentionally doesn’t get it and, in fact, refuses to see the flawed logic of his positions.
‘we only have his word’ ... bite me you phony half-baked intellectual ... this is a family-man who was scooped up illegally, held illegally, forced to swear that fallacious statements concerning him were truth under threat of physical harm or death. then spent all his time writing his defense or rebuttal to his forced confession. think about it ... he had to ask which direction the sun rose - he was drugged whenever moved - he was held for 2 frickin’ years. unfortunately, i would trust this man with the truth before anyone in our administration - just think of the implications of that ...
as a war veteran, i find it shameful and saddening and deeply troubling that my government has signed into law a permission-slip for crimes against humanity by all states worldwide. i can just hear the indignant outrage and huffing and puffing from the same bunch of self-righteous hypocrites had such a brazen bill been publicly passed by our foes of the cold war.
as a citizen of a so-called-democracy, i share responsibility for this and other crimes committed in my name. i humbly apologize to Moazzam, his family, and the hundreds of thousands, no, the millions of other souls dragged into this ideological travesty and reminder of how far humankind has allowed itself to devolve. we had such great promise… may our mutual creator have mercy upon us all.
all of us, except, of course, texasindependent ...
hourglass
hourglass says,
whattheheck tries again.
that he was illegally abducted, drugged and held incommunicato is beyond question, you dolt. that is what america does now. how he spent his free time, i’ll admit i have to take at his word. the legislation that jr signed is meant to retroactively absolve the admin and their agents of war crimes.
oh, and no, i didn’t read it here first. i first became aware of my nation’s horrific and illegal treatment of prisoners when a brave national guardsman disclosed the atrocities committed at abu graib. now the privates and sergeants are in prison - but not the perps - not the smart guys with other priorities. we all know that privates and sergeants set policy.
i have seen photos from there and elsewhere your media won’t show your fragile, deluded fat asses. cause then, you might question your leaders and america can’t have that until the coup de tat is complete.
we can’t get photos from our newer gulags - the perps learned - as far as the red cross/crescent is concerned - they don’t exist ...
“who needs reason?” - how dare you imply you offer reason.
“who needs evidence or a different opinion?” - i would laugh if it weren’t so dismaying ... it’s all over the world - there are hundreds, no, thousands of cases. your alphabet soup of news providers just keep you entertained or subdued with pundits and talking heads. and you think you can offer an opinion of any worth? you live in a bubble of fear, denial and shame. so many of these captured were paid for and scooped up because of local feuds and vendettas - you built your fence a foot onto my property… you took more than your fair share of water.. you took, you stole, you dishonored, you, you, you.
do you have any idea how many people are incarcerated now at the locations that can be monitored? or how many of these have provable, evidentiary ties to organized terror? i know for certain that we have no idea how many have been ‘rendered’ to other govs for some good ‘ol really gruesome torture or to our new, renovated gulags. how many convictions have there been? - you know they’d be crowing about each and every one…
oh, and by the way, we now occupy iraq. no, the war is over. we, and a couple of our criminal friends, illegally attacked, defeated and set up a new gov there. brave and honorable that too. we all but destroyed their military back with papa, then sanctions for years that only hurt the little guy and no fly zones and other fun stuff for the citizenry. oh, and the uprising we encouraged in the south and then hid under mama’s petticoat. tough guys all. honorable too.
we are not at war with terror - it’s an absurd notion - terror is a tactic. if there really was a war on the terrorists who supposedly took out norad, we would have pursued bin forgotten to the ends of the earth. no silly child, our intention was to muscle in and confiscate a people’s natural resources, while establishing a libertarian type free market economy in the troubled heart of islam and, of course, our own little oasis for our military to get us out of bin forgotten’s homeland. taxpayer military to secure corporate profits and world domination. wow what a fantastical, honorable and wonderful notion. corporate welfare. welfare for the rich.
this iraq debacle will end with a three-way split of iraq. we have accomplished there what bin forgotten couldn’t in iraq - women back to burqas and out of the workplace. sharia law. a theocratic gov. great job all you smart, rich guys.
war on terror… my gawd, you’re simple and pitiable.
hourglass is out of sand
WTH….You have gone insane….
Mr Beggs credibility is not the issue…the issue is , WTH and your denial syndrome….
WTH and Redhorse have dialogued in the past…mostly agreeing to disagree…correct…
Now on this one WTH…Redhorse is asking you to trust , that this story is true…
People are being renditioned…the administration has admitted this…prisoners at GITMO do not commit suicide , because the tennis courts were closed for repaving…they kill themselves because they’re in a living hell , and will do anything to get out….
We know these things happened…the administration again…grudgingly let this information out….
So the stretch is not that far….
In a word WTH….EMPATHIZE….you need to stop all this paranoia and empathize….
whattheheck, i apologize for losing my temper with you. i shouldn’t have, you can’t help it.
it’s just shows how tragically your free press has been compromised. my friend, you may consider me gullible and narrowminded and worse, but sadly, i’ m just better informed.
“Some where under the apple tree, I sold you and you sold me”
Saddest song ever written.
Better than that old chestnut tree, eh?
Redhorse,
If you will carefully read what I wrote, you will see that I am not saying this didn
Well…WTH….issues like this one will always be a crossroads for the Horse and WTH….
Although it is clear to me that you are guilty of over analysis…and should accept the word of Mr.Begg…his being in Pakistan is not the point…wrong place , wrong time , has no relevance….
Truely if somebody…kidnapped a loved one of yours…you wouldn’t ask these questions…thats what is going on…only the KIDNAPERS are federal agents….
Now the Gov’t is going to say something different…; but all of us know something is not right when citizens of any nation , can be picked up and imprisoned for no reason…
That’s supposed to be Saddam’s nonsense…not the US….not Amerika….and against the Geneva Convention…a war crime..no less…
So you think/say this nation is at war…..But…who started the war…the US did….
What happened on 9/11…has nothing to do with what is going on hear…this is about the slow…steady….erosion of everybodies rights as citizens….
9/11 was an attack…one that at this point looks pretty suspicious…a lot of people still think a plane and fire brought those buildings down…but the live video footage clearly points too a much more complex set of circumstances…that said…
We will again agree to disagree and leave it at that…
Redhorse,
It
Well WTH…at this point nothing the Redhorse can say or think of will make a difference…
US policy has away been imperialistic by nature…
European is no different…this being the case…bad discussions have always been made…this current administration being worst than others…but the point is…” there is no way out of a bad situation…unless there is contrition…”
Now I understand from your perspective that may seem weak…but WTH…any fair analysis would have to consider the contingency of a sincere peace offer….
No one viewpoint is totally correct…but one thing is clear to this Redhorse…and that is ...” that the US can not win this so-called ; war on terrorism…period…bad idea from the get go…poorly planned…zero feasibility…..
The so-called terrorist are no more than frustrated youth , opportunistically exploited by COINTELPRO type provocateurs….
No doubt covertly financed thru CIA sources….
Bottom line dream scenario for US foriegn policy….
1) pull the plug on the covert non-sense…
2) take it on the chin, as far as blowback…while simultaneously…
3) begin to make sincere monetary and policy reparations to all parties adversely affected…
These three basic principles would do more to clear up this mess than further violence…it seems to me that a little maturity on the part of the US would go a long way…
Commonsense bullshit like not talking to N.Korea….totally incompetent foriegn policy..that resulted in what…another nuke on this planet….
With the US arsenal at somewhere in the 10 ‘s of thousands range…it would seem that other nations might be concerned…
...ya gotta look at it from the others perspective….empathize….
Well thats my soap box…...just a thought…
Redhorse.
WTH….Redhorse will not argue over points of history , because that is not what I am talking about…As usual WTH…you wear your heart on your sleeve…thats why Redhorse can see through your bullshit…not unlike a clown like Jay Cline….maybe its your midwestern sensiblities…..
But anyway , the main point I was making is that no matter what happened when , are how , in the past….contrition…sincere remorse for wrongdoings in the past….reparation due for damages ////...
Think metaphorically WTH…don’t take it personally..look past what other nations have failed to do , and think , what is the correct thing for Amerika…
.As a business person , I’m sure from time to time billing discrepanies have come up…were maybe you over charged a client, without the mistake coming to the attention of the client…Being honest and having a measure of integrity…you bring the subject to the attention of the client and workout an equitable solution…correct…
US population is 5% of the world population , but the nation uses 80 to 85 % of the world resources…now those resources weren’t given to the US…those resources were either expropriated by 1) slavery ; 2) war ; 3) colonialism ( now neo-colonialism )....or better known as ” free trade “..
NAFTA type shit…like that super highway from Mexico to Canada that you don’t hear anything about in the news….”.same song different era…”.
So it really doesn’t matter who cuts the cake…ya gotta be ” fair ” at this point in the game…cause the rest of the world is puttin’ the US on notice….Either you do the right thing, or this problem will continue…..
And WTH…lets be real…this whole 9/11 terrorist bug came out of the minds of those neo-cons…the whole thing points to them…
Now I ‘m sure it hurts your heart to think that your fellow Amerikans would do something like that…but truth has always been stranger than fiction…
As a matter of note…I think guys like honestjoe should maybe research this thing from the prospective of the Oklahoma City bombing…and McViegh…possible connections with the Christian Identity crowd or the Aryan Nationalist…links to the Saudis thru some lobbyist organization…..that’s another possible scenario…..
Redhorse does not at this point believe that 19 guys with box cutters pulled this thing off…at best these guys were flunkies for a much larger agenda thats base is without a doubt ; home grown in the good ol’ USA….
If the UN is so ineffective…ask why…who really runs the place..we know the answer , again the US…
Proxy leadership….gets proxy results….
Redhorse,
You see our 5% of the world population “using 80 -85% of the world’s resources” and I see it used to develop polio vaccine, rescue tsunami victims, provide new time saving and life saving inventions, etc.
Much of the good has come from businesses and individuals
WTH…Keep dreamin’....the polly anna act is for kids…..
You know as well as I that 80% of the world resources is over kill thievery….
Save your dream scenario rhetoric for Natalie…...
Contrition…take responsiblity….pay reparations….....
Redhorse,
Your response to my view of the U.S. was:
WTH….That is not the point…whether or not this nation is richer or can give out more money…..
If your son was constantly involved in questionable behavior that was unacceptable to you but acceptable to others , would you address his transgressions…or just say..”.well… the kid scored 30 points against so and so high school and he is my son so…its ok….nobodies perfect….”
No you wouldn’t…you wouldn’t be much of a parent if you didn’t do something about your sons behavior…but these are tougher issues , right…more is at stake…but the very Amerikans who swear allegiance to this nation…continue to look the other way…when it comes to calling a spade a spade…..
People go through hell and high water to get here because Amerika has stolen all their chips…..
Now I’m sure you think everything this nation has was honest booty…but without 300 years of slavery….and the scholarship of folks like Elijah McCoy….Amerika wouldn’t be jack….
You owe the rest of the world…but are irresponsible in your reparational behavior….
Look at the rhetoric on Iraq…folks talking like this thing is the Iraqis fault…when the situation was totally avoidable….
Just a lotta Bullshit snake-tongueism…...
Being perfect is not the issue…its the race to get away with being excessively evil….Just cause my neighbor craps in the middle of the road , doesn’t mean I have too…..
It seems quite clear from my perspective, but…then again….there’s no love lost from where I’m sitting….
Redhorse,
WTH…Yes…but whether you like it or not…slavery is the foundation of the capitalist economy ...you so admire…you profit from it ....
I have stated this book in the past…Eric Williams…Capitalism and Slavery….read it…....
Until the 1960’s , Amerika was a defacto apartheid nation…
Sense then many white Amerikans….mostly so-called Reagan Republicans have been working overtime to get back to the ” good ol’ days ” of Jim Crowism….
Only this time with a class issue attached…so now they want your money….also…..
Of course you don’t think of that when you ” morph ” into your ” Amerika can do no wrong ” , routine…..
Like most white folks you really don’t see or thing about that…your white skin privilege , blocks it all out….
You see us…but you really don’t…
Just like the Iraqis….it’s always ” those people “.....
Amerika invades a nation….destroys the place…for no reason…and now its the Iraqis fault the US hasn’t left yet….
Denial and lack of responsiblity…...
If not for slavery,,,Afrika might not be in the mess they are in now….
Amerika would never have survived the war of independence….
And you would be working and living in good ol’ England…or somewhere in Europe….
Sense Redhorse is of Afrikan and native heritage…their is no telling where or what…. Redhorse would be doing….
Maybe running the place…ya know….apparently you don’t…....
What influence does the CIA have in Afrika….In Search of Enemies….John Stockwell…..
Now WTH….you are starting to sound like ol’ girl Natalie…
Redhorse is still his ol’ radical progressive self…....
What gives…..?
This is not a ” generalizational topic “...if it happens to you….
Redhorse,
WTH….First….nobody accused you or your ancestors of being slave holders….the point is that no matter when or how or why your ancestors came here…they , like all europeans have been able to benefit from the privilegeS that your lack of melanin , allows in this country…..
Your comments are interesting on so many points…..
You know your family history…and exactly how their got here….
Despite the hardship your ancestors experienced…yu seem to lack empathy for others currently experiencing the same if not greater misfortunes….
Despite over 300 years of affirmative action for white males…now you think special considerations for other groups is uncalled for….
Racism is the economic depravation of a particular group of people by another based on the color of their skin….
Where have I done that to you WTH….?
It is very telling that you would thing that too be compensated for work done is a ransom….I guess that is how you felt about paying your employees…right..
No one is asking for a payback from you WTH…
The gov’t passed and has payed out reparation too others..but never Afrikan Amerikans…despite the fact that the original reparation bill was based on the suffering of my ancestors….
If not for their ( Afrikans ) hard work , your family would have had no place to come to…..but do Afrikan Amerikan get any credit for the sacrifices made then or now….no.
If Afrikan Amerikans were truely considered citizens of this nation…no legislation would have been needed…
But the fact that legal remedies have been enacted….speaks volumes about the true nature of our tenuous status as citizens…
White folks are excessively sensitive about racial matters….even though they are not the recipient of the hate….
Now why is that WTH…?
Maybe a guilt complex….?.
Feeling bad about the racist jokes your friend told at the last cocktail party you went to…or maybe it was at the hardware store…..the little league game…..?
Why is Redhorse all of a sudden the racist…interesting avoidance technique…...
Redhorse,
I disagree with your definition of racism
WTH…Don’t try to flip the script now…
You have never experienced racism, you have no clue….
Redhorse had to explain to you the reason for Afrikan Amerikan organizations…
Now you gonna tell me about what racism is….
Ain’t that a bitch….
Totally different subject….
You gonna vote next week….?
Redhorse,
I will be voting. We use computers (not my preference), but with a paper trail.
There are two independents available on our ballot and I will be votiing for one. He iis a write-in with little chance, but it is in protest of the globalization our current congressman has pushed for years.
I honestly don’t care which party “wins” the congressional majority since neither will do anything worthwhile. At least with a deadlock they can’t do as much damage as they would like either. (That’s as upbeat as I can muster.)
Damn WTH….in the mist of our little turmoil…we agree…I will be voting for green party candidates…as much as Redhorse finds the current administration….ugly…the Dems…aren’t much better…I will vote absentee , paper ballot…and progressive…..
Redhorse,
“Abandon Hope, All Who Enter Here”
I think what Dante said was more like, “Abandon every hope, you who enter.”
So WTH…what do you think of Sen.Barak Obama….as a possible presidential candidate….and as a senator….
Redhorse thinks he’s a good man…but the presidency is a little too soon…plus he and his wife have small children…and the White House is not a good place to raise a family…in this Horses opinion….
Redhorse
WTH…yeah….I think he should what until his children are older…give it another 10 years or so…run for Governor first….
The problem with Obama is that , people tend to believe that he’s some sort of magic bullet….getting on the fast track can ruin a guy….
This is the problem with Lt. Gov Micheal Steele in Maryland…the guy wants to be the next Senator…so he hitches himself to Bush…and the Republican party…now with Bush in the tank…he’s trying to distance himself….but folks aren’t buying that mess…
I’ve never trusted the fast track social climber types , cause they will say and do anything to get what ” they want….”
This guy Steele has been a Republican for 20 years , but now that he needs the backing of Afrikan Amerikan Democracts…his got bumper stickers that say ....” Steele Democrat “...you never hear him say that he is a Republican unless asked directly by a reporter….
Plus…he and his darling little sister…ripped off Mike Tyson for about 15 to 20 million in a divorce settlement…that Steele was not legally licensed to adjudicate….
Not only did he pimp his sister…( she meet and married Tyson while he was doing time on that rape beef )...then he screws the man out of his money…no different than any other gold digger on the block….This is how he got his money….
For Sen.Obama to fast track himself…in my personal opinion , would be a big mistake…..too many pit falls…to much stuff in the wind at one time….
RH
True…true…so true…many politicians look good at first…but time and experience will tell the true story….
Redhorse is more skeptical of the profession…than of the man…..
My feeling is that the republicans have over played their hand…a few times…mostly the executive branch…but the fall out will come down on them all….
Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld have made their billions and now it’s time to kiss off the rest of the party…who of course were used as a buffer for their criminality….
What I am interested in seeing is what happens after these thugs leave office…..
RH,
Well WTH…If I’m not mistaken, that super-highway from Mexico to Canada is coming right your way…maybe you can get contracts printing brochures for Mexican and Canadian political candidates ; bad joke…..
Now you know Redhorse thought this whole war against terrorism was a bunch of bullshit from the get go…
I could open a psychic hotline behind these guys….Redhorses Psychic Political Hotline….our motto is….when you come to your senses…call us….1-800-NOTAWAR….
Iraq was poorly planned , because it was a poor idea in the frst place….
60% of the Amerikan people are against this war….but Cheney and his boys say they are going to do what they what regardless of public opinion….
Ya gotta take responsiblity…and ya gotta get out….period.
The next president has to be his own man on this issue…at this point in the game…the intelligence reports or daily briefings can only tell you so much…the policy has too be workable and based on reality…which has long sense been on vacation in this Bush administration….
So the question is….Can you fix the information machine and hit the ground running ; simultaneously…...
Remember…Smedley Butlers words….war is a racket….
Sense when has a racketeer…been a harbinger of accurate non-ostentatious information…..
Redhorse,
Well, my guys lost. So another term with the same governor (although he may be indicted) and the same NAFTA lovin’ “Representative.”
At least Rumsfeld finally is out.
WTH….Redhorse did ok…
Fenty is the Mayor of DC….
O’Malley beat Erhlich for Governor of Md…
Cardin beat Steele for the Md.Senate seat…...
Now we will have to see what happens…..
And Allen lost to Webb in the Va. Senate seat….
RH,
After I read Webb’s book, “Born fighting,” last year I e-mailed him and surprisingly got a reply. We exchanged a couple more and he seemed like a very interesting guy. I hope he wins.
I wonderwhat would have happened if VA had been a computer voting state without a paper backup.
A friend got me to this article by David Gergen
Well Allen just conceded…acknowledging defeat to Webb…
Now if somebody can just do something about that naked guy running around the White House….
At least put a robe on the fool….
I heard about Allen throwing in the towel right after I last wrote. Earlier I heard they thought it could take as long a two weeks to do a recount
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