Moazzam Begg is a second-generation British Muslim. In 2002, he was arrested in Pakistan and held for two years by the United States as an “enemy combatant.” Below, he describes his arrival and interrogation in Guantanamo after being held at both Kandahar and Bagram. He was released in 2005, and now lives in Birmingham, England, with his family. Today, Begg can… return to article
-
subscribe to print magazine
-
email this article to a friend
-
Reader Comments (50)Page 1 of 1 pagesWhile the time was indeed long and not knowing the extent would make it even longer, there are many things I would like to know which seem more important. How was he brought to the attention of those who arrested him? Was an anonymous tip involved? Could somebody he knew have wanted to make trouble for him? Mistaken identity? Why was he in Pakistan at that time? Did he go there regularly in connection with his bookstore business in England?
There is mistreatment inferred, but only threats of a possible death sentence are specifically mentioned. We have heard so much about the torture of prisoners that it seems if he had been he would have tol us. Not being familiar with the U.S. military’s methods he was of course subjected to his worst fears, but much of his description sounds reasonable — suicide blanket, toothbrush too small to be fashioned into a weapon, etc.
What was the final process by which he was released? Were character witnesses allowed? Did someone testify on his behalf? I heard on C-Span (Senate Hearings) last year that those who pled not guilty were the first to receive legal council. Did he have any? Did he file a plea?
Certainly this must have been a frightening experience and apparently was finally judged to be a mistake, but it is impossible for me to see any way the military did anything unreasonable in this situation. Of which I’m much relieved. (FBI may be a different story.)
He was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 16, 2006 at 1:48 PM While whattheheck’s response seems logical and points to specific questions of interest, I beleive it to be the most brutal I have ever read. Wrong Place -wrong time? I beleive Habeas Corpus would have covered that one nicely-oh but wait-we don’t have that one anymore-900 or so years of precedence wasn’t enough for us superior americans.
That this man -and oh so many more- was subjected to any of this flies in the face every founding principle of this nation-law or no law. Innocent until proven guilty-evidence not intention-are any of these ringin’ a bell? And spare me the he’s not an american citzen crap-this is what made us great-that we attempted to afford others what we considered to be inalieable rights . It’s some of what made us as americans hold our heads high and nourish our souls.
And this is the crux of it I think-until americans have enough remorse, enough utter and complete sorrow and self awareness that they have not only lost the very soul of this country but subjected the rest of the world to unmitigated arrogance and cold brutality, this nation will continue to sink in the mire of decay. WE WERE WRONG- it’s simple. Excuses and reasoned logic about how we really didn’t do that bad…are so inappropriate a response, it leaves one numb.
To the rest of the world I say this: I am so sorry. I am so sorry that the fear we felt overid our principles-that the fervor of rhetroic overtook our sences. I am so sorry. We were wrong. No matter that I love my country, no matter that I do not abide true terrorism any worth whatsoever-that no people “deserve” this-I am sorry we hurt you. Now,I don’t speak for america and there are those that aren’t sorry at all-they’re hateful bunch.Most lilkely what happens is they come on sites like this and blast their hate by calling their fellow americans of differing opinions names such as apologists or traitors or some other ill founded display of ignorance. I have no excuse for them. I can only tell you what is in my heart-that I am sorry our nation has hurt you. I, and many others, are working to correct this. Please, don’t give up on us.
Posted by kaela on Oct 16, 2006 at 8:31 PM I on the other hand would like to assure the rest of the world that America has changed. We have always accepted the dregs of your societies that you cast off. We have fought your wars,given you food, and handed out uncounted trillions of dollars to you. If not for the direct involvement of the United States the vast majority of you would be speaking Russian, German, or Japanese. We have conquered polio, smallpox, and given you the tools to feed yourself. If we needed your advice on terrorists we would ask for it.
Posted by texasindependent on Oct 17, 2006 at 2:11 AM WTH…I don’t know why I’m surprized…
You just don’t understand…do you….
Man…Redhorse feels sorry for you….
This whole operation was sloopy..from beginning to end…period…
I know one thing for sure….when Sen. McCain is alone…he feels the same pain as this guy…you can bet your last dollar…it don’t go away that eazy…..
This shit reminds me of the Klan on growth hormones.; when those murderin’ thugs go out ...wildin’..lookin’ for any unfortunate black person they could find…and torture..
Mr. Moazzam Begg was probably spared the worst treatment , because of the simple fact that he spoke english…therefore he was a possible threat to do what he ended up doing…writing about and talking about his extremely tragic experience…..
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 17, 2006 at 2:17 AM TexasIndependent….All the Redhorse can say is…you are a bigger bitch than that fag Foley….
Yeah…the dregs..like when your family plopped its filthy ass on these shores…
Europe looked at the amerikas ...as a penal colony…where all the low-lifes and no counts were sent….
You’re such a dumb-ass…you forget you didn’t speak english when your family got here….Russian , German…what the fuck are you smokin’...fool..
Look jack-ass…pull the log out your ass..and let some of that toxic gas out of your rectum…that is where your thoughts originate…........
And this WE…shit…..TI….certain individuals have done great things…I find it interesting that a low-brow neanderthal such as yourself , is included in all the hard work , sacrifice and dedication of someone you have never meet or will ever meet….
Add credit grabber to your list…
Furthermore who is this “you ” person that is continuely mentioned…“who” is ” you ” that’s what I would like to know…...........true jackass…
Typikal Amerikan arrogance..polio , smallpox…european amerikans gave smallpox to the native population…Both viruses were brought to the new world by folks that look like yourself..(.along with a few different types of venereal dis-eases.)..That’s like shootin’ a guy in the foot 3 or 4 times..and then claiming you saved his life…BEFORE, you gave him a band-aid….............what a moron…..
Now Redhorse understands more clearly , how the Nazi party came into power in Germany during the 30’s…dumb motherfuckers like you..not willing to think past the last fart…..
You are a totally FUCKED UP INDIVIDUAL…in form and content…....
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 17, 2006 at 2:33 AM This was hard to read all the way through… Texasindependent, Givers never Remember, Receivers never forget. What we did in the past was for the better of the entire planet including ourselves. Do not use this as an excuse for modern day mistreatment of human beings.
Redhorse, stick to the matter at hand please.
My condolances go out to Mr. Moazzam Begg and his entire family. Nothing this country can ever do will give him 2 years of his life back. But what he has done, will help to insure uncanny acts of US neglegance will never happen again. This is only 1 case of hundreds out there. Peoples lives are being ruined and families are being torn apart. Everyone needs to stay active and use their brains in a positive manner through this mess..
Posted by Justin on Oct 17, 2006 at 4:37 AM Justin…You can soft soap that fool if you want too…but Redhorse is goin to say what the fuck is on my mind…....ok…
Again with this ” we “...mess..
Amerika has never done 3 ounces worth of good , that wasn’t forced out of it by progressive working people-centered movements…
Only by the ” blood in my eye.”..was Amerika brought to the table of attrition….ever…
And only for the photo op…basically…
So my friend Justin..”.you can stick too the matter at hand.”..whatever is meant by that…?..Redhorse sees a much larger stink…and sense I pay the internet bills around this barn…me things I shall post as I please….........true…
Further…250 odd years of slavery…then 80 years of apartied ” Jim Crowism “....finally the so-called civil rights and human rights movements of the 60’s…the assassinations and all that mess…now ” WE “...for the last 25 years have a growing neo-con fascist agenda , in response to the minute victories of the 60’s and early 70’s…
What great works of humanity are you speaking about Justin…Amerikas been too busy killin’ folks…to help much…Most aid is either window dressing or after the covert op CIA genocide machine does it’s thing…...
Hate to rain on your parade…but the reality is different…than the rhetoric….....
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 17, 2006 at 5:17 AM Yeah tex, who needs that crap on the Statue of Liberty. Screw “huddled masses” and “downtrodden.”
And now Habeas Corpus.
Who’s going to speak up for you Tex? Not I said the hen. Not I said the goat. Not I said the sheep. Not I.
Posted by PoBoy on Oct 17, 2006 at 8:41 AM the above comments scare me, it is sad when so many completely miss the point, using tragedy to promote thier meaningless agendas.
I pity America, the America I believe in doesn’t believe in torture. Mr. Begg’s book is something that should be read by everyone. It is not a “bashing” book, and written beautifully. It is proven that if a living organism, for whatever reason, no longer needs a part of its body, the process of evolution rids the organism of it ... where does that leave human beings in regards to their mind?
Posted by eyesoftheworld on Oct 17, 2006 at 1:15 PM Kaela, Redhorse,
Kaela, you evidently lead a very sheltered life and are quick to judge if, “He was in the wrong place at the wrong time.” is the most brutal you have ever read.
First —That comment followed a series of questions as to why he was arrested and that since he was apparently not tortured by the military at Gitmo I was glad.
Second — Who can deny if he had NOT been in Pakistan at that time he would probably NOT have been a prisoner?
Redhorse,
First let me say I have tried repeatedly to reply to your last post when you mentioned Massey’s writing but I cannot get back to that discussion. (This has happened before but only on this website.) I read quite a bit about him and some of his own writing since then and find him to be a rare individual. In an earlier century he may have developed a following which would have deified him and started a religion. Great insights into the human condition.
You said, “This whole operation was sloppy..from beginning to end…period…”
We don’t really know much about this WHOLE operation. We have one side of the story and even that is missing very important information as I indicated in my earlier comments. You assume he was treated better than some because he spoke English. You may be right, but we don’t really know that. If our guys were as bad as many who come to this site believe, why didn’t he just “ die trying to escape”? That would prevent his writing and talking — permanently.
I think you are being affected by the repeated allegations which pervade the internet and the daily international media. If we want the truth rather than just a reinforced personal bias, we need to remain open to ALL the evidence and testimony and but each story with a grain of salt.
To take this man’s testimony (even if 100% verifiable) as THE way prisoners are treated is too easy. It amounts to deciding that since a Dachshund is a German breed of dog German Shepherds have short legs.
Today we get so much information and so little knowledge. Sound bites and quick flicks are no substitute for reading historical accounts from a variety of sources. Matching them against personal or first hand accounts from sources you are reasonably certain are reliable and then seeking a fair assessment.
I recently reread Vicktor Frankel’s account of his two years in Auschwitz and Dachau. He mentioned how the prisoners envied some of the others who were assigned to factory work. He was outside in the winter without good shoes, warm clothes and nearly starved. Then they saw another group whose guards were far more brutal than theirs and felt lucky.
I will not excuse any torture committed by any U.S. agents civilian or military, but neither will I assume it is the norm.Read:
Frankel’s book, “Man’s Search for Meaning” (WW2 German held captives)
Alexander Solsenitzen’s “Gulag Archipelago” (Soviet Union, Cold War)
“The General Dean Story” (A Chinese prison during the Korean War)
While Moazzam Begg’s two years in captivity is not something any of us should take lightly, we have only his word as to what happened and no clarification from him or anyone as to why. It’s possible he does not know either.
This imprisonment is often spoken of by the media in terms of criminal law. Kaela is treating it that way. Habeas Corpus, rules of evidence, legal representation, etc., but no wartime situations have never been treated to those niceties. (Yes, I believe we are at war.)
I remember seeing German POWs here in my hometown during WW2 working on road gangs with soldiers carrying shotguns watching over them. A few years ago our state refused to put prisoners on that kind of work. They said it was “...too degrading and hard on their self esteem.”While I was in basic training we repaired a road at Fort Leonard Wood by filling our helmets with rocks. Another time we cut the grass by crawling on hands and knees and using our mess kit knives.
Apparently our self esteem was not a consideration. All is relative.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 17, 2006 at 7:02 PM Kaela, Redhorse,
Kaela, you evidently lead a very sheltered life and are quick to judge if, “He was in the wrong place at the wrong time.” is the most brutal you have ever read.
First —That comment followed a series of questions as to why he was arrested and that since he was apparently not tortured by the military at Gitmo I was glad.
Second — Who can deny if he had NOT been in Pakistan at that time he would probably NOT have been a prisoner?
Redhorse,
First let me say I have tried repeatedly to reply to your last post when you mentioned Massey’s writing but I cannot get back to that discussion. (This has happened before but only on this website.) I read quite a bit about him and some of his own writing since then and find him to be a rare individual. In an earlier century he may have developed a following which would have deified him and started a religion. Great insights into the human condition.
You said, “This whole operation was sloppy..from beginning to end…period…”
We don’t really know much about this WHOLE operation. We have one side of the story and even that is missing very important information as I indicated in my earlier comments. You assume he was treated better than some because he spoke English. You may be right, but we don’t really know that. If our guys were as bad as many who come to this site believe, why didn’t he just “ die trying to escape”? That would prevent his writing and talking — permanently.
I think you are being affected by the repeated allegations which pervade the internet and the daily international media. If we want the truth rather than just a reinforced personal bias, we need to remain open to ALL the evidence and testimony and take each story with a grain of salt.
To take this man’s testimony (even if 100% verifiable) as THE way prisoners are treated is too easy. It amounts to deciding that since a Dachshund is a German breed of dog German Shepherds have short legs.
Today we get so much information and so little knowledge. Sound bites and quick flicks are no substitute for reading historical accounts from a variety of sources. Matching them against personal or first hand accounts from sources you are reasonably certain are reliable and then seeking a fair assessment.
I recently reread Vicktor Frankel’s account of his two years in Auschwitz and Dachau. He mentioned how the prisoners envied some of the others who were assigned to factory work. He was outside in the winter without good shoes, warm clothes and nearly starved. Then they saw another group whose guards were far more brutal than theirs and felt lucky.
I will not excuse any torture committed by any U.S. agents civilian or military, but neither will I assume it is the norm.Read:
Frankel’s book, “Man’s Search for Meaning” (WW2 German held captives)
Alexander Solsenitzen’s “Gulag Archipelago” (Soviet Union, Cold War)
“The General Dean Story” (A Chinese prison during the Korean War)
While Moazzam Begg’s two years in captivity is not something any of us should take lightly, we have only his word as to what happened and no clarification from him or anyone as to why. It’s possible he does not know either.
This imprisonment is often spoken of by the media in terms of criminal law. Kaela is treating it that way. Habeas Corpus, rules of evidence, legal representation, etc., but no wartime situations have ever been treated to those niceties. (Yes, I believe we are at war.)
I remember seeing German POWs here in my hometown during WW2 working on road gangs with soldiers carrying shotguns watching over them. A few years ago our state refused to put prisoners on that kind of work. They said it was “...too degrading and hard on their self esteem.”While I was in basic training we repaired a road at Fort Leonard Wood by filling our helmets with rocks. Another time we cut the grass by crawling on hands and knees and using our mess kit knives.
Apparently our self esteem was not a consideration. All is relative.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 17, 2006 at 7:11 PM whattheheck lives in denial. he read the account with the eye of an appeaser, an enabler, confident that he would never be subjected to the same treatment. such things only happen to them. whattheheck then offers what he believes to be reasoned thought, ignoring the content of Moazzam’s story. and comes back does it again, saying he didn’t say what he said. it’s the same thinking that allows man’s inhumanity to man to recur again and again in our shared experience. i have sparred with him before. he intentionally doesn’t get it and, in fact, refuses to see the flawed logic of his positions.
‘we only have his word’ ... bite me you phony half-baked intellectual ... this is a family-man who was scooped up illegally, held illegally, forced to swear that fallacious statements concerning him were truth under threat of physical harm or death. then spent all his time writing his defense or rebuttal to his forced confession. think about it ... he had to ask which direction the sun rose - he was drugged whenever moved - he was held for 2 frickin’ years. unfortunately, i would trust this man with the truth before anyone in our administration - just think of the implications of that ...
as a war veteran, i find it shameful and saddening and deeply troubling that my government has signed into law a permission-slip for crimes against humanity by all states worldwide. i can just hear the indignant outrage and huffing and puffing from the same bunch of self-righteous hypocrites had such a brazen bill been publicly passed by our foes of the cold war.
as a citizen of a so-called-democracy, i share responsibility for this and other crimes committed in my name. i humbly apologize to Moazzam, his family, and the hundreds of thousands, no, the millions of other souls dragged into this ideological travesty and reminder of how far humankind has allowed itself to devolve. we had such great promise… may our mutual creator have mercy upon us all.
all of us, except, of course, texasindependent ...
hourglass
Posted by hourglass on Oct 18, 2006 at 10:21 AM hourglass says,
“‘we only have his word’ ... bite me you phony half-baked intellectual ... this is a family-man who was scooped up illegally, held illegally, forced to swear that fallacious statements concerning him were truth under threat of physical harm or death. then spent all his time writing his defense or rebuttal to his forced confession. think about it ... he had to ask which direction the sun rose - he was drugged whenever moved - he was held for 2 frickin’ years. unfortunately, i would trust this man with the truth before anyone in our administration - just think of the implications of that ...”
And you know all of the above because — Why?
Well, because you read it here. Right?
Well, I guess then it MUST be so. Who needs reason, evidence or a different opinion?
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 18, 2006 at 1:21 PM whattheheck tries again.
that he was illegally abducted, drugged and held incommunicato is beyond question, you dolt. that is what america does now. how he spent his free time, i’ll admit i have to take at his word. the legislation that jr signed is meant to retroactively absolve the admin and their agents of war crimes.
oh, and no, i didn’t read it here first. i first became aware of my nation’s horrific and illegal treatment of prisoners when a brave national guardsman disclosed the atrocities committed at abu graib. now the privates and sergeants are in prison - but not the perps - not the smart guys with other priorities. we all know that privates and sergeants set policy.
i have seen photos from there and elsewhere your media won’t show your fragile, deluded fat asses. cause then, you might question your leaders and america can’t have that until the coup de tat is complete.
we can’t get photos from our newer gulags - the perps learned - as far as the red cross/crescent is concerned - they don’t exist ...
“who needs reason?” - how dare you imply you offer reason.
“who needs evidence or a different opinion?” - i would laugh if it weren’t so dismaying ... it’s all over the world - there are hundreds, no, thousands of cases. your alphabet soup of news providers just keep you entertained or subdued with pundits and talking heads. and you think you can offer an opinion of any worth? you live in a bubble of fear, denial and shame. so many of these captured were paid for and scooped up because of local feuds and vendettas - you built your fence a foot onto my property… you took more than your fair share of water.. you took, you stole, you dishonored, you, you, you.
do you have any idea how many people are incarcerated now at the locations that can be monitored? or how many of these have provable, evidentiary ties to organized terror? i know for certain that we have no idea how many have been ‘rendered’ to other govs for some good ‘ol really gruesome torture or to our new, renovated gulags. how many convictions have there been? - you know they’d be crowing about each and every one…
oh, and by the way, we now occupy iraq. no, the war is over. we, and a couple of our criminal friends, illegally attacked, defeated and set up a new gov there. brave and honorable that too. we all but destroyed their military back with papa, then sanctions for years that only hurt the little guy and no fly zones and other fun stuff for the citizenry. oh, and the uprising we encouraged in the south and then hid under mama’s petticoat. tough guys all. honorable too.
we are not at war with terror - it’s an absurd notion - terror is a tactic. if there really was a war on the terrorists who supposedly took out norad, we would have pursued bin forgotten to the ends of the earth. no silly child, our intention was to muscle in and confiscate a people’s natural resources, while establishing a libertarian type free market economy in the troubled heart of islam and, of course, our own little oasis for our military to get us out of bin forgotten’s homeland. taxpayer military to secure corporate profits and world domination. wow what a fantastical, honorable and wonderful notion. corporate welfare. welfare for the rich.
this iraq debacle will end with a three-way split of iraq. we have accomplished there what bin forgotten couldn’t in iraq - women back to burqas and out of the workplace. sharia law. a theocratic gov. great job all you smart, rich guys.
war on terror… my gawd, you’re simple and pitiable.
hourglass is out of sand
Posted by hourglass on Oct 18, 2006 at 3:30 PM “hourglass is out of sand”
Hmmm, more like kitty litter.
You are so gullible, self-satisfied and narrow minded, you are pathetic.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 18, 2006 at 3:56 PM WTH….You have gone insane….
Mr Beggs credibility is not the issue…the issue is , WTH and your denial syndrome….
WTH and Redhorse have dialogued in the past…mostly agreeing to disagree…correct…
Now on this one WTH…Redhorse is asking you to trust , that this story is true…
People are being renditioned…the administration has admitted this…prisoners at GITMO do not commit suicide , because the tennis courts were closed for repaving…they kill themselves because they’re in a living hell , and will do anything to get out….
We know these things happened…the administration again…grudgingly let this information out….
So the stretch is not that far….
In a word WTH….EMPATHIZE….you need to stop all this paranoia and empathize….
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 18, 2006 at 8:54 PM whattheheck, i apologize for losing my temper with you. i shouldn’t have, you can’t help it.
it’s just shows how tragically your free press has been compromised. my friend, you may consider me gullible and narrowminded and worse, but sadly, i’ m just better informed.
Posted by hourglass on Oct 18, 2006 at 11:32 PM “Some where under the apple tree, I sold you and you sold me”
Saddest song ever written.
Better than that old chestnut tree, eh?
Posted by minerva_jones on Oct 19, 2006 at 4:12 AM Redhorse,
If you will carefully read what I wrote, you will see that I am not saying this didn’t happen the way he wrote it. I am saying we do not have enough info from what he wrote, we only have one side of the story and apparently (APPARENTLY) he was not tortured.
I have heard and read about the issues you mentioned, but that does NOT mean:
• everything we have read is universal
• every person’s account is true
• that no prisoners should be held
• that all prisoners should be
• or, in this case that if a couple of FBI guys threatened to kill him it would have been doneI know too many military people who would not stand for this kind of treatment to believe this is SOP. I have heard from several individuals or their families told that in their areas of Iraq and Afghanistan they WERE initially welcomed.
The problem is not with the invasion — it is with the lack of enough troops to maintain a safe environment — we move to another area and citizens who cooperated are killed.
You live in D.C. Why won’t people there (and here) stand up against the gangs and inform on them? Same reason as in Iraq — no protection.
I just won’t jump to either conclusion. (Fortunately I don’t have to since my opinion won’t change anything.)
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 19, 2006 at 6:17 PM Well…WTH….issues like this one will always be a crossroads for the Horse and WTH….
Although it is clear to me that you are guilty of over analysis…and should accept the word of Mr.Begg…his being in Pakistan is not the point…wrong place , wrong time , has no relevance….
Truely if somebody…kidnapped a loved one of yours…you wouldn’t ask these questions…thats what is going on…only the KIDNAPERS are federal agents….
Now the Gov’t is going to say something different…; but all of us know something is not right when citizens of any nation , can be picked up and imprisoned for no reason…
That’s supposed to be Saddam’s nonsense…not the US….not Amerika….and against the Geneva Convention…a war crime..no less…
So you think/say this nation is at war…..But…who started the war…the US did….
What happened on 9/11…has nothing to do with what is going on hear…this is about the slow…steady….erosion of everybodies rights as citizens….
9/11 was an attack…one that at this point looks pretty suspicious…a lot of people still think a plane and fire brought those buildings down…but the live video footage clearly points too a much more complex set of circumstances…that said…
We will again agree to disagree and leave it at that…
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 20, 2006 at 12:39 AM Redhorse,
It’s OK if we don’t agree. At least we can consider and evaluate each other’s viewpoint. Some of this disagreement is the old half full or half empty thing relating to individual perception.
Personally I don’t think there can be an over analysis if we are really seeking the truth and fairness. (More analysis when he was picked up may have avoided this whole episode.) On the other hand fairness requires learning or at least considering both sides of the story.
If everything in this article happened as he says, he was treated unfairly. But even then we don’t know for certain whose fault that was. If someone in Pakistan had it in for him it may have been easy to set him up. If there was a bounty on “terrorists” he may have been a victim of a local jerk cashing in. If he was treated unfairly and it was totally the fault of bad judgment on the part of the FBI that’s really bad.
You mentioned this hypothetical situation:
“Truly if somebody…kidnapped a loved one of yours…you wouldn’t ask these questions…”I certainly would, but because of my personal knowledge of the person. I don’t have that here.
Another situation:
I will assume that even if Mr. Begg is a truly innocent victim of the war many are not. Many were picked up during the fighting and disarmed. Call them terrorists or call them freedom fighters, they still want to kill our people. If I were in the position to choose who to let go and who to keep on ice I would have to think of what they may do if I let them go.The wife of a friend was sexually assaulted with a screwdriver (no more kids) many years ago while the guy was out on parole for a prior assault on a woman. Every few years they have to go to the parole hearing to prevent some softhearted parole board members from turning him loose on the public again. I would NEVER let him out again. In fact I would have executed the SOB thirty years ago and been done with it.
I went to amazon.com and read reviews of his book. Most were favorable — as I would expect due to what audience is most likely to read this sort of story. One, however, is by someone who is reporting his evaluation as he continues to read and he pointed out a couple of disturbing things not mentioned by anyone else. I will go back and see if his opinion changes as he progresses.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 21, 2006 at 8:02 PM Well WTH…at this point nothing the Redhorse can say or think of will make a difference…
US policy has away been imperialistic by nature…European is no different…this being the case…bad discussions have always been made…this current administration being worst than others…but the point is…” there is no way out of a bad situation…unless there is contrition…”
Now I understand from your perspective that may seem weak…but WTH…any fair analysis would have to consider the contingency of a sincere peace offer….
No one viewpoint is totally correct…but one thing is clear to this Redhorse…and that is ...” that the US can not win this so-called ; war on terrorism…period…bad idea from the get go…poorly planned…zero feasibility…..
The so-called terrorist are no more than frustrated youth , opportunistically exploited by COINTELPRO type provocateurs….
No doubt covertly financed thru CIA sources….Bottom line dream scenario for US foriegn policy….
1) pull the plug on the covert non-sense…
2) take it on the chin, as far as blowback…while simultaneously…
3) begin to make sincere monetary and policy reparations to all parties adversely affected…These three basic principles would do more to clear up this mess than further violence…it seems to me that a little maturity on the part of the US would go a long way…
Commonsense bullshit like not talking to N.Korea….totally incompetent foriegn policy..that resulted in what…another nuke on this planet….
With the US arsenal at somewhere in the 10 ‘s of thousands range…it would seem that other nations might be concerned…
...ya gotta look at it from the others perspective….empathize….
Well thats my soap box…...just a thought…
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 22, 2006 at 1:06 AM Redhorse.
“US policy has away been imperialistic by nature… European is no different…”
I would like to add that virtually ALL countries have ALWAYS had a habit of expanding their scope of influence either buy outright annexation of territory, (taking or buying) financial influence, or coalitions such as the League of Nations, U.N., NATO, etc.
As early as 1931 Japan (who has nearly no natural resources of its own) began a ruthless grab for territory involving thousands of square miles and millions of people. They were largely ignored by the west partly because Hitler seemed more threatening to us, but largely due to the drain of casualties and money still left from WW1. The U.S. military was down to nearly zero and the depression made in politically impossible to fully rearm until after Pearl Harbor.Don’t let the “either/or” technique of the mass media narrow individual or national motives and actions to justtwo choices. Life is never as simple as they paint it
. “A sincere peace offer”...? OK, but with who?
If as you say, “...terrorists are no more than frustrated youth, opportunistically exploited…” How would we go about it? Could crime in our major cities be stopped with such a solution? Wouldn’t any agreement with one gang effect only a small part of the problem?North Korea would not have been stopped from going nuclear by talking with one or any number of countries. Talk without the ability to back it up is the reason the U.N. is so useless. Twelve years of talk from the U.N. didn’t get Saddam to cooperate — he just got richer. All those countries couldn’t make you or me eat our vegetables before we go out to play.
We disagree on the reality of the war, but agree “War on Terror” is a bad choice of words to describe what is going on.
We can agree on another point for sure — our foreign policies are not coherent from one administration to another. We have an over abundance of nukes in our closet. (Not sure it matters any more than gun legislation restricting 10 round magazines — one well placed bullet is all it takes for someone willing to use it.)
There are two articles I read this weekend regarding Iraq. One is directly linked to our policy and why many Iraqis do not trust it.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/850ulqxz.as sp
I read “Martyrs’ Day”, by Michael Kelly who reported on the Gulf War and was killed a couple years ago in Iraq. He tells of how we promised to help them against Saddam in 1991 and left them out to dry. James Baker is now working on a rerun.
The other reinforces what I have heard from returning troops about what we get and don’t get in the news here — and why.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/844nigml.as s
You might find them interesting.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 23, 2006 at 1:40 PM WTH….Redhorse will not argue over points of history , because that is not what I am talking about…As usual WTH…you wear your heart on your sleeve…thats why Redhorse can see through your bullshit…not unlike a clown like Jay Cline….maybe its your midwestern sensiblities…..
But anyway , the main point I was making is that no matter what happened when , are how , in the past….contrition…sincere remorse for wrongdoings in the past….reparation due for damages ////...
Think metaphorically WTH…don’t take it personally..look past what other nations have failed to do , and think , what is the correct thing for Amerika…
.As a business person , I’m sure from time to time billing discrepanies have come up…were maybe you over charged a client, without the mistake coming to the attention of the client…Being honest and having a measure of integrity…you bring the subject to the attention of the client and workout an equitable solution…correct…
US population is 5% of the world population , but the nation uses 80 to 85 % of the world resources…now those resources weren’t given to the US…those resources were either expropriated by 1) slavery ; 2) war ; 3) colonialism ( now neo-colonialism )....or better known as ” free trade “..
NAFTA type shit…like that super highway from Mexico to Canada that you don’t hear anything about in the news….”.same song different era…”.
So it really doesn’t matter who cuts the cake…ya gotta be ” fair ” at this point in the game…cause the rest of the world is puttin’ the US on notice….Either you do the right thing, or this problem will continue…..
And WTH…lets be real…this whole 9/11 terrorist bug came out of the minds of those neo-cons…the whole thing points to them…
Now I ‘m sure it hurts your heart to think that your fellow Amerikans would do something like that…but truth has always been stranger than fiction…
As a matter of note…I think guys like honestjoe should maybe research this thing from the prospective of the Oklahoma City bombing…and McViegh…possible connections with the Christian Identity crowd or the Aryan Nationalist…links to the Saudis thru some lobbyist organization…..that’s another possible scenario…..
Redhorse does not at this point believe that 19 guys with box cutters pulled this thing off…at best these guys were flunkies for a much larger agenda thats base is without a doubt ; home grown in the good ol’ USA….
If the UN is so ineffective…ask why…who really runs the place..we know the answer , again the US…
Proxy leadership….gets proxy results….
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 24, 2006 at 3:27 AM Redhorse,
You see our 5% of the world population “using 80 -85% of the world’s resources” and I see it used to develop polio vaccine, rescue tsunami victims, provide new time saving and life saving inventions, etc.
Much of the good has come from businesses and individuals — some out of a a sense of caring, some from a sense of guilt, some from other motives, but to those who are in need — who cares why? The really massive emergencies have come through our taxes plus donations.
You see us in the worst possible light with anything we do tied to exploiting everyone possible. I know we aren’t perfect, but history IS important and it shows we aren’t all that bad.
Sure our history has a lot of bad marks. Some people held slaves, the Indians got screwed, in the Spanish American and other wars we acquired land — in each and every one of these events there was opposition which was overruled for years. Still, this is not like a monarchy (Spain) or totalitarian state (Soviet Union) — We wouldn’t even be having this debate if it were.
There IS NO continuing U.S. conspiracy or on-going master plan. Hell, the government couldn’t plan any longer than the next election and they’ve done a bad job on this one. Many of those guys are too busy lining their own pockets. A report yesterday said they are now down to working 100 days per year.
Let’s face it, there are a bunch of people who have been, are and will continue to try to do us harm. If someone wants to attack my family, my friends or my country — no matter how good the reason — I’m for getting them first.
As for the U.N. – it has never been anything but a “feel good” debating society. We don’t control them, but we have allowed them to become an exclusive international country club. (I think they have taken congress’ job to the next higher level — absolutely NO accountability to anyone.)
Our conversations remind me of one of my favorite Ella Fitzgerald songs – “You say E-either and I say I-either. You say N-neither and I say N-either…”
“Let’s call the whole thing off.”OK, Redhorse, I give up.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 24, 2006 at 12:51 PM WTH…Keep dreamin’....the polly anna act is for kids…..
You know as well as I that 80% of the world resources is over kill thievery….
Save your dream scenario rhetoric for Natalie…...
Contrition…take responsiblity….pay reparations….....
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 24, 2006 at 5:29 PM Redhorse,
Your response to my view of the U.S. was:
“...Keep dreamin’....the polly anna act is for kids…..
You know as well as I that 80% of the world resources is over kill thievery….
Save your dream scenario rhetoric for Natalie…...
Contrition…take responsibility….pay reparations….....”Can you honestly name any country in the world which would fit your desires and be better overall than the U.S.?
If we are so terrible why are so many trying to get here?
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 29, 2006 at 2:46 PM WTH….That is not the point…whether or not this nation is richer or can give out more money…..
If your son was constantly involved in questionable behavior that was unacceptable to you but acceptable to others , would you address his transgressions…or just say..”.well… the kid scored 30 points against so and so high school and he is my son so…its ok….nobodies perfect….”
No you wouldn’t…you wouldn’t be much of a parent if you didn’t do something about your sons behavior…but these are tougher issues , right…more is at stake…but the very Amerikans who swear allegiance to this nation…continue to look the other way…when it comes to calling a spade a spade…..
People go through hell and high water to get here because Amerika has stolen all their chips…..
Now I’m sure you think everything this nation has was honest booty…but without 300 years of slavery….and the scholarship of folks like Elijah McCoy….Amerika wouldn’t be jack….
You owe the rest of the world…but are irresponsible in your reparational behavior….
Look at the rhetoric on Iraq…folks talking like this thing is the Iraqis fault…when the situation was totally avoidable….
Just a lotta Bullshit snake-tongueism…...
Being perfect is not the issue…its the race to get away with being excessively evil….Just cause my neighbor craps in the middle of the road , doesn’t mean I have too…..
It seems quite clear from my perspective, but…then again….there’s no love lost from where I’m sitting….
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 29, 2006 at 4:31 PM Redhorse,
“People go through hell and high water to get here because Amerika has stolen all their chips…..
Now I’m sure you think everything this nation has was honest booty…but without 300 years of slavery….and the scholarship of folks like Elijah McCoy….Amerika wouldn’t be jack….
You owe the rest of the world…but are irresponsible in your reparational behavior….”How many people do you know who went “…through hell and high water to get here because Amerika has stolen all their chips…..” ?
Without 300 years of slavery you could be in some part of Africa where genocide is running wild. If it weren’t for my ancestors escaping Ireland and Sweden where they had nothing and no hope of ever owning anything, I would not be as well off either. That is why THEY came here for a chance to make something for themselves and I am lucky they did.
As far as the reparations or what you think — I— “owe the rest of the world”—BULLSHIT!
I had nothing to do with slavery and neither did my family before me — I owe THEM for coming here any other Americans who have made my freedom possible. (And by the way you owe a bunch of Americans for your freedom too.)“Look at the rhetoric on Iraq…folks talking like this thing is the Iraqis fault…when the situation was totally avoidable….”
Some of the Iraqis are to blame for some of the current mess. They have their politicians and crooks too. But I would say it is mostly the stupid way the post combat period has been handled — too few troops to keep people safe.
Totally avoidable? So should we turn the country back over to Saddam who was doing — what? A better job for the Iraqis?I repeat:
———————————& ——————————— 8212;——-
Sure our history has a lot of bad marks. Some people held slaves, the Indians got screwed, in the Spanish American and other wars we acquired land — in each and every one of these events there was opposition which was overruled for years. Still, this is not like a monarchy (Spain) or totalitarian state (Soviet Union) — We wouldn’t even be having this debate if it were.
———————————& ——————————— 8212;——-
Life is a process — no nation, government, or person always does the right thing. Sometimes the best we can hope for is the least bad thing. This country is not finished and never will be. There will always be a struggle between good and evil, honesty and dishonesty, and even when people TRY to do the best they won’t always get it right.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 30, 2006 at 12:36 AM WTH…Yes…but whether you like it or not…slavery is the foundation of the capitalist economy ...you so admire…you profit from it ....
I have stated this book in the past…Eric Williams…Capitalism and Slavery….read it…....
Until the 1960’s , Amerika was a defacto apartheid nation…
Sense then many white Amerikans….mostly so-called Reagan Republicans have been working overtime to get back to the ” good ol’ days ” of Jim Crowism….
Only this time with a class issue attached…so now they want your money….also…..
Of course you don’t think of that when you ” morph ” into your ” Amerika can do no wrong ” , routine…..
Like most white folks you really don’t see or thing about that…your white skin privilege , blocks it all out….
You see us…but you really don’t…
Just like the Iraqis….it’s always ” those people “.....
Amerika invades a nation….destroys the place…for no reason…and now its the Iraqis fault the US hasn’t left yet….
Denial and lack of responsiblity…...
If not for slavery,,,Afrika might not be in the mess they are in now….
Amerika would never have survived the war of independence….
And you would be working and living in good ol’ England…or somewhere in Europe….
Sense Redhorse is of Afrikan and native heritage…their is no telling where or what…. Redhorse would be doing….
Maybe running the place…ya know….apparently you don’t…....
What influence does the CIA have in Afrika….In Search of Enemies….John Stockwell…..
Now WTH….you are starting to sound like ol’ girl Natalie…
Redhorse is still his ol’ radical progressive self…....
What gives…..?
This is not a ” generalizational topic “...if it happens to you….
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 30, 2006 at 1:41 AM Redhorse,
“There is none so blind as he who WILL not see.”
———————————& ——————————— 8212;————————You may look at my words, but you read what you WANT to see.
You don’t see your own racial prejudice:
“whether you like it or not…slavery is the foundation of the capitalist economy ...you so admire…you profit from it…”“Like most white folks you really don’t see or thing about that…your white skin privilege , blocks it all out…”
“Denial and lack of responsiblity….
Sense Redhorse is of Afrikan and native heritage…their is no telling where or what…. Redhorse would be doing…”
——————————— ;————-
Well, Redhorse, life is not just black or white, right or wrong, yes or no, all or nothing.
Some black guys were selling all those slaves to the slave traders—and only some white guys were buying.
Some businesses (capitalism if you prefer) is good, honest and fair — some is not.
Some of us had good motives for going into Iraq and some had other reasons. Some Iraqis want a religion-free society, some want a theocracy. Some Iraqis are patriots and some are warloards or ordinary crooks. But anyone who thinks things were better under Saddam is out of his mind or just doesn’t care about people.
——————————— ;————-
“And you would be working and living in good ol’ England…or somewhere in Europe….
My Scots-Irish ancestors were the equivalent of the Mexican field workers we pay sub-minimum wage here today. They went from Scotland to Ireland to survive by working in the fields of wealthy landowners. When they came here they were not allowed to settle in New England and ended up on the frontier in Virginia (1700s and 1800s) — they couldn’t have afforded slaves if they wanted them. My great grandfather (b:1834 in Virginia) moved to Illinois and then fought in the Union army for four years.When you write:
“Of course you don’t think of that when you “ morph “ into your “ Amerika can do no wrong “ , routine…”
You are ignoring what I have sent twice listing the less than perfect history and you also ignore the attempts (Civil Rights Act of 1964) towhich was supposed to equalize opportunities. But you want a payback from people like me, who did not participate in what you see as a unique miscarriage of justice.
Your attitude and insistence that anyone who is white is responsible (by birth) for your condition (by birth) only serves to turn off people who would like you to have a fair shake. (If this isn’t racism what is?)
There should be no special advantage, no financial ransom — just an opportunity. That is all anyone should expect at best and all you have a prayer of ever getting. To campaign for reparations would be the kiss of death to any politician.
Your reaction to what I have written to you tells me that you won’t realize any attempts by anyone to make things better — you want perfection,you want it now and you want it from me!
The world owes none of us anything. I have what I have because my ancestors — both the Scots/Irish and the Swedes) made the best of what they had and I did the same.
That is the real world.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 30, 2006 at 6:01 PM WTH….First….nobody accused you or your ancestors of being slave holders….the point is that no matter when or how or why your ancestors came here…they , like all europeans have been able to benefit from the privilegeS that your lack of melanin , allows in this country…..
Your comments are interesting on so many points…..
You know your family history…and exactly how their got here….
Despite the hardship your ancestors experienced…yu seem to lack empathy for others currently experiencing the same if not greater misfortunes….
Despite over 300 years of affirmative action for white males…now you think special considerations for other groups is uncalled for….
Racism is the economic depravation of a particular group of people by another based on the color of their skin….
Where have I done that to you WTH….?It is very telling that you would thing that too be compensated for work done is a ransom….I guess that is how you felt about paying your employees…right..
No one is asking for a payback from you WTH…
The gov’t passed and has payed out reparation too others..but never Afrikan Amerikans…despite the fact that the original reparation bill was based on the suffering of my ancestors….
If not for their ( Afrikans ) hard work , your family would have had no place to come to…..but do Afrikan Amerikan get any credit for the sacrifices made then or now….no.
If Afrikan Amerikans were truely considered citizens of this nation…no legislation would have been needed…
But the fact that legal remedies have been enacted….speaks volumes about the true nature of our tenuous status as citizens…
White folks are excessively sensitive about racial matters….even though they are not the recipient of the hate….
Now why is that WTH…?
Maybe a guilt complex….?.
Feeling bad about the racist jokes your friend told at the last cocktail party you went to…or maybe it was at the hardware store…..the little league game…..?
Why is Redhorse all of a sudden the racist…interesting avoidance technique…...
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 31, 2006 at 8:03 AM Redhorse,
I disagree with your definition of racism — “Racism is the economic depravation of a particular group of people by another based on the color of their skin….”
– this is only one aspect of it — any time a person puts down or blames a group based on skin color — it is racism!
When you lump “white folks” (including me) into your accusations of blame for past inequities that is racism in my book.
Check your comment: “Feeling bad about the racist jokes your friend told at the last cocktail party you went to…or maybe it was at the hardware store…..the little league game…..?”
You assume that anyone who disagrees with your reparations is at the heart of the problem.You say, “No one is asking for a payback from you WTH…” Of course you are. Where do you think the government gets its money? From taxpayers. I am a taxpayer, so it comes from me.
When you say, “If Afrikan Amerikans were truely considered citizens of this nation…no legislation would have been needed…” You ignore the fact that enough people — primarily whites since they had the power to over come it — acted to try to stop the injustice.——————————— ;—————————
This one takes the cake:“White folks are excessively sensitive about racial matters….even though they are not the recipient of the hate….”
Are you old enough to remember the 1960s? If those weren’t expressions of hate, what is?
———————————& —————————I confess to your statement here… “Despite over 300 years of affirmative action for white males…now you think special considerations for other groups is uncalled for….”
I think “special considerations” for any groups based on race, gender, religion are discriminatory by definition and therefore are divisive and only increase and maintain the original problem by transferring it to some other group.
The U.S. Constitution is unique in that it speaks of rights for individuals NOT groups or classes. The Civil rights Act of 1964 was designed to prevent ANY such “special considerations” too rectify the past exclusions of women’s rights, racial and religious biases.
You can’t reach equality by favoring anyone category.
As far as my having benefited by past American history — Yes, and I am grateful for all those who have made this a country which most people would be happy to join. Those who preceded both of us (you are a recipient too) are responsible for what opportunities we have — that includes people of all colors.
However, their descendants should not receive financial compensation for their sacrifices anymore than they expected any for what their ancestors accomplished before them.
I feel no guilt for anything which preceded me or I had no direct invlovement in and take no credit for the good things either.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 31, 2006 at 3:00 PM WTH…Don’t try to flip the script now…
You have never experienced racism, you have no clue….
Redhorse had to explain to you the reason for Afrikan Amerikan organizations…
Now you gonna tell me about what racism is….
Ain’t that a bitch….
Totally different subject….
You gonna vote next week….?
Posted by Redhorse on Oct 31, 2006 at 9:06 PM Redhorse,
I will be voting. We use computers (not my preference), but with a paper trail.
There are two independents available on our ballot and I will be votiing for one. He iis a write-in with little chance, but it is in protest of the globalization our current congressman has pushed for years.
I honestly don’t care which party “wins” the congressional majority since neither will do anything worthwhile. At least with a deadlock they can’t do as much damage as they would like either. (That’s as upbeat as I can muster.)
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 31, 2006 at 10:44 PM Damn WTH….in the mist of our little turmoil…we agree…I will be voting for green party candidates…as much as Redhorse finds the current administration….ugly…the Dems…aren’t much better…I will vote absentee , paper ballot…and progressive…..
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 1, 2006 at 12:06 AM Redhorse,
“Damn WTH….in the mist of our little turmoil…we agree…I will be voting for green party candidates…”
Right!
I think some of our disagreements are largely theoretical. I just came across this Einstein quote:
“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice they are different.”
When it comes to practice I suspect we are pretty close, but disagree on the theories of how best to do it.
For example: How to and how not to treat individuals — agree. Who should be responsible and to what degree government can/should be involved — disagree.I just made up my mind this morning to vote for the Green candidate for governor. I’m in Illinois where we have a long history of indicted governors and Chicago has had virtual control of the state for all of my life. At last we have a third party with what I believe to be a real chance. Things have gotten bad enough to get a lot of attention and both major parties have run a negative only campaign.
Green party candidate, Whitney, has no political history or experience, but has worked as a newspaper reporter and got a law degree only 10 years ago at age 45.I like a lot of his ideas and general way of thinking. (Thinking about ways to fix problems rather than how to “fix” contracts for buddies would be a new approach.) He’s sure worth a try — what more can we lose?
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 1, 2006 at 2:48 PM “Abandon Hope, All Who Enter Here”
I think what Dante said was more like, “Abandon every hope, you who enter.”
Posted by restifo on Nov 1, 2006 at 8:41 PM So WTH…what do you think of Sen.Barak Obama….as a possible presidential candidate….and as a senator….
Redhorse thinks he’s a good man…but the presidency is a little too soon…plus he and his wife have small children…and the White House is not a good place to raise a family…in this Horses opinion….
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 1, 2006 at 11:26 PM Redhorse — same here with Obama.
In our state we must declare a party to vote in the primaries and usually (not always) I have declared Republican, but this time in order to vote for Obama I took the Democrat ballot. (This declaration has always been a sore spot with me.)
I also think it is too soon. Senator Durban said he was a great candidate due to his lack of a long track record. (That says a lot about Durban—a career politician.) I would prefer to see a candidate’s record and Obama’s is just too short right now.
I plan to read his book, “The Audacity of Hope” since, sooner or later I believe he will run for it.
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 2, 2006 at 3:27 PM WTH…yeah….I think he should what until his children are older…give it another 10 years or so…run for Governor first….
The problem with Obama is that , people tend to believe that he’s some sort of magic bullet….getting on the fast track can ruin a guy….
This is the problem with Lt. Gov Micheal Steele in Maryland…the guy wants to be the next Senator…so he hitches himself to Bush…and the Republican party…now with Bush in the tank…he’s trying to distance himself….but folks aren’t buying that mess…
I’ve never trusted the fast track social climber types , cause they will say and do anything to get what ” they want….”
This guy Steele has been a Republican for 20 years , but now that he needs the backing of Afrikan Amerikan Democracts…his got bumper stickers that say ....” Steele Democrat “...you never hear him say that he is a Republican unless asked directly by a reporter….
Plus…he and his darling little sister…ripped off Mike Tyson for about 15 to 20 million in a divorce settlement…that Steele was not legally licensed to adjudicate….
Not only did he pimp his sister…( she meet and married Tyson while he was doing time on that rape beef )...then he screws the man out of his money…no different than any other gold digger on the block….This is how he got his money….
For Sen.Obama to fast track himself…in my personal opinion , would be a big mistake…..too many pit falls…to much stuff in the wind at one time….
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 3, 2006 at 12:29 AM RH—
“The problem with Obama is that , people tend to believe that he’s some sort of magic bullet….getting on the fast track can ruin a guy…”
I can see why the Democrats would like him now — everyone else with a high profile (in both parties) has a lot of negative character flaws. He looks like the Lone Ranger by comparison.
Obama is obviously intelligent, he is personable and when he says something it has the ring of sincerity. I know I have become increasingly cynical, but the first time I heard Bill Clinton I thought, “Hey, I could vote for this guy.” Before the election I told my best friend (who voted for him twice), “I think this guy is morally bankrupt.”
Well, I voted for Ross Perot because he was the only one who saw the effects of globalization which I had started to experience in my business. Now, while I want to vote for Whitney as governor, I’m afraid it will insure Blago back in office. (another Clinton type looking out for Number One)
I would never get elected to public office, but would accept Emperor if enough people write me in.Obama should wait a while — for his family’s sake as you mentioned — and to get a bit more savvy about the ways things are done by the best and the worst in Washington. If he sticks to what now seem to be his values he will stand to gain even more support. If not — I want to know it before he’s in the oval office.
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 4, 2006 at 3:20 PM True…true…so true…many politicians look good at first…but time and experience will tell the true story….
Redhorse is more skeptical of the profession…than of the man…..
My feeling is that the republicans have over played their hand…a few times…mostly the executive branch…but the fall out will come down on them all….
Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld have made their billions and now it’s time to kiss off the rest of the party…who of course were used as a buffer for their criminality….
What I am interested in seeing is what happens after these thugs leave office…..
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 4, 2006 at 5:31 PM RH,
“Redhorse is more skeptical of the profession…than of the man…”
Many think any win becomes a mandate. They never consider many of us voted not FOR them, but AGAINST the other idiot.Our current congressman initially ran on the promise of his own term limit — 6 years… Then, guess what, he had become chairman of the small business committee and for OUR benefit just had to stay.
In his time there (12 years) he has insisted NAFTA is great for us. He likes CAFTA, WTO — all the globalization goodies. I know he never reads my letters (dozens since 1993), but the last time I congratulated him on the job he did, “...since you have been Chairing the Small Business Chairman most businesses around here have gotten a lot smaller.”
———————————- -“What I am interested in seeing is what happens after these thugs leave office…..”
Me too.
As you know by now I believe we were right to take out Saddam, but have totally screwed up the post combat phase by sending too few troops to do the stabilization job. It was apparent immediately and no change in approach has been attempted.
My biggest problem with Bush’s bunch is their guns and butter approach. If we are at war we should ALL be at war. Here at home we should be doing without all the gasoline money can buy. We should have a serious border and ports security program. We should be engaged civil defense at every level. We should be in this to win ASAP, as we were in WW2.
If an anti-Iraq candidate wins the presidency and suddenly becomes a hawk after receiving the daily briefings, I will feel justified. If not, I will feel betrayed and terrible.
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 5, 2006 at 2:36 PM Well WTH…If I’m not mistaken, that super-highway from Mexico to Canada is coming right your way…maybe you can get contracts printing brochures for Mexican and Canadian political candidates ; bad joke…..
Now you know Redhorse thought this whole war against terrorism was a bunch of bullshit from the get go…
I could open a psychic hotline behind these guys….Redhorses Psychic Political Hotline….our motto is….when you come to your senses…call us….1-800-NOTAWAR….
Iraq was poorly planned , because it was a poor idea in the frst place….
60% of the Amerikan people are against this war….but Cheney and his boys say they are going to do what they what regardless of public opinion….
Ya gotta take responsiblity…and ya gotta get out….period.
The next president has to be his own man on this issue…at this point in the game…the intelligence reports or daily briefings can only tell you so much…the policy has too be workable and based on reality…which has long sense been on vacation in this Bush administration….
So the question is….Can you fix the information machine and hit the ground running ; simultaneously…...
Remember…Smedley Butlers words….war is a racket….
Sense when has a racketeer…been a harbinger of accurate non-ostentatious information…..
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 5, 2006 at 5:15 PM Redhorse,
Well, my guys lost. So another term with the same governor (although he may be indicted) and the same NAFTA lovin’ “Representative.”
At least Rumsfeld finally is out.
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 9, 2006 at 6:24 PM WTH….Redhorse did ok…
Fenty is the Mayor of DC….
O’Malley beat Erhlich for Governor of Md…
Cardin beat Steele for the Md.Senate seat…...
Now we will have to see what happens…..
And Allen lost to Webb in the Va. Senate seat….
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 9, 2006 at 9:26 PM RH,
After I read Webb’s book, “Born fighting,” last year I e-mailed him and surprisingly got a reply. We exchanged a couple more and he seemed like a very interesting guy. I hope he wins.
I wonderwhat would have happened if VA had been a computer voting state without a paper backup.
A friend got me to this article by David Gergen — “Let’s Get It Together” In the U.S.News and World Report, October 16, 2006
http://www.davidgergen.com/index.php?page=home&item=752
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 9, 2006 at 10:40 PM Well Allen just conceded…acknowledging defeat to Webb…
Now if somebody can just do something about that naked guy running around the White House….
At least put a robe on the fool….
Posted by Redhorse on Nov 10, 2006 at 12:20 AM I heard about Allen throwing in the towel right after I last wrote. Earlier I heard they thought it could take as long a two weeks to do a recount — so much for paper balllots aren’t good enough.
Posted by whattheheck on Nov 10, 2006 at 3:18 PM Page 1 of 1 pages -
register a new account »Posting Security
Also by Moazzam Begg
- Abandon Hope, All Who Enter Here
A falsely accused "enemy combatant" describes his imprisonment in Guantanamo.
Popular Discussions
- The 9/11 Faith Movement
Many Americans believe 9/11 was a conspiracy by the U.S. government
1979 posts since Jul 11 06 - What’s the 411 on 9/11?
891 posts since Dec 21 05 - Democrats: It’s the War
659 posts since Nov 1 05 - Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
462 posts since Jun 19 06 - A Fundamental History Lesson
The rise of National Socialism proved politics and religion don't mix
427 posts since Oct 10 05
© 2006 In These Times | Reprint Policy | Privacy Policy | Powered by Expression Engine | RSS Feeds
