White Progressives Don’t Get It

They were ONLY over here because WE have been over there for generations propping up Israel’s dispossession of millions of Palestinian Arabs and backing rightwing Arab dictatorships in Kuwait,
Saudi Arabia and most of the Arab World including the murderous Shah
of Iran for a long time.
The terrorist training camps only came into existence in response to
US & Israeli State Terror against the Palestinians and other Arabs.
The USA is the leading terrorist state in the world, see Chomsky’s
Rogue State and William Blum’s Rogue States.
We have no influence over the Sudanese govt to stop Darfur but we do
over Israel which we fund 100% to stop its aggression and we could
have a settlement there today if the US & Israel wanted it. They don’t
and the policy is to drive out as many Palestinians out as possible.
Removing Saddam in 1991 was an insane policy in an unjustified attempt to keep Kuwait, which is part of Iraq, in the hands of a corrupt monarchy.
The casualties would have been far worse in 1991 because by 2003
Iraq was greatly weakened by the sanctions and the deaths of millions
from same. Powell & Bush Sr very wisely ignored Far Right jackasses
like you. His STUPID son didn’t, hence the present mess.
THE US IS NOT THE WORLD’S POLICEMAN AND WE DO NOT HAVE ANY OBLIGATION WHATSOEVER TO AID ANY OR ALL OPPRESSED
GROUPS. USUALLY THE USA IS SUPPORTING OPPRESSIVE STATES
FROM ZAIRE TO ISRAEL TO SINGAPORE TO PAKISTAN TO GUATEMALA TO INDONESIA TO SOUTH KOREA TO EL SALVADOR TO
YOU NAME IT.
The Bosnia action was not positive as that “moderate” Islamic state
has ethnically cleansed every Serb and Croat it could AND gave passports to Bin Laden & all top Al Queda aides. And this goes double
for the Clinton-Blair ethnic cleansing of the Serbs in Kosovo in response
to a “genocide” that wasn’t happening.
Your insane idea of MORE troops is exactly what is not needed.
Maybe you can work for the lunatic Manchurian Johnboy McCain.
David, look at your many posts to see what I mean when I write more
conciseness would be nice on your part.
WTH, enough of your crap to start the morning.

Blondie,

“WTH, enough of your crap to start the morning.”

I can see it has a laxative effect on you — your response is always the same ol’ shit.

I will no longer address you so, if you don’t like to think about anything just don’t read it.

Ta-ta.

That still doesn’t mean I won’t rebut your nonsense if it’s egregious.
I am not in a personal feud with you, only concerned about the issues here.

And your response is still the same old failure to rebut my ” same old
shit.”

BM, You’d make one hell of a diplomat.

“I am not in a personal feud with you, only concerned about the issues here.”

Oh?

“Far Right jackasses like you.”

“Your insane idea…”

Just the most recent insults. Sounds rather personal to me. Don’t you realize you have insulted nearly everyone who posts on this site?

It is probably just as well that we never meet face to face.

conciseness would be nice

Mike, Thanks for your advice. I will take it under consideration.
Clear, concise and (hopefully) correct are qualities I value and strive for.
And I always try to remember that conciseness and clarity, or lack of them, in no way take away from the correctness, or lack of it, of an argument.

Ok, David. And it’s not just you either.
Where is Canuckistan ?
WTH, I’m up for that face to face and you’re up for a serious beating I hear.

In case anyone has read down through all the bickering, back to Benn Michaels, or rather, diversity vs everything—maybe I am too forgiving, but I read his essay as mainly an urge to shift the question of inequality back a bit in the direction of economic inequality, not necessarily to discount the matter of race altogether, but maybe I’m putting my own filter over it.  Michaels says “A world where some of us don’t have enough money is a world where the differences between us present a problem: the need to get rid of inequality or to justify it… We like to talk about the differences we can appreciate [race], and we don’t like to talk about the ones we can’t [financial resources].”  He’s generalizing, but even if I don’t agree with how black-and-white (forgive me) he paints it to prove a point, he nevertheless has a point.  It is ethically and pragmatically ridiculous, not to mention political suicide these days, to say that diversity is no longer an issue.  But why isn’t there more of an issue made of poverty and all the unfairness of privilege?  Here in Illinois, why has a citizenry and government accepted the practice of lavishing luxuries on schools of the northern and western suburbs while inner-city and downstate schools are literally falling apart?  If the problem is disparity in property tax revenue, does this really justify perpetuation of the class divide?  Come on.  Poverty is a human issue, and is a problem with solutions, even if they require moving beyond “appreciation.”

On a vaguely related subject: do colored progressives “get” how wrong it is to charge clearly innocent white men with the rape of a black (exotic dancer) women? The Duke case is a prime example of how race politics can lead to the horrible abuse of the legal system. It is amazing that the case has not been dropped, the DA fired and the boys issued a full apology by the state (and the exotic dancer should be charged with filing false reports as well).

The OJ trail also was a clear case of race politics gone amuck. . .

Or is this just “:pay back” for real and imagined wrongs?

Pathetic.

Your right, Wolf. But colored progressives and their self-hating white
apologists have dog doo for brains.

beatricity,

I cringe at the calls for “more diversity” or “economic equality” since it seems to me unity is more desirable. What we need economically is equality of opportunity. Then the money would be distributed according to quality and quantity of individual effort and production.

(This comment is not meant to exclude charity for those who CAN’T produce for themselves.)

While I see no reason to officially make English our national language, it is a no brainer that a single language is a unifying feature. I have a slight ability in a few languages, but never traveled out of the U.S. until over 50. Nearly everywhere I went in Europe someone spoke English quite well. There was an attempt at Interlingua several years ago which looked interesting, but seems to have been dropped.

Emphasis on diversity has split unions into small competing factions and lost them the clout they once had. Diversity as a goal rather than individual equality of rights and opportunities has artifitially distributed people with poor results. Sometimes what feels good at the time has long term negative effects.

My personal view is people do best who learn to do for themselves all that they possibly can. Our part is to try to give them the chance.

“Unity” of what ? Making sense of your bumbling wordsalads is no
easy matter, What The Hell.

Blondie asks,

““Unity” of what ? Making sense of your bumbling wordsalads is no easy matter, What The Hell.”
———————————& ——————————-

I can see English is not your native tongue so I’ll give you some clues…

1. What flag is that on your e-mail posting? (lower left, as in leftwinger)

2. U _ _ _ _ d S _ _ _ _ s

3. This country is NOT the Diverse States of America. It is the _________.
———————————& ——————————

So, I guess all those dumb blonde jokes aren’t really jokes after all.

Don’t worry — there will be no tuition charge or fine for reading other people’s mail.

WTH…..everything yu said was right on point…I guess the juxtaposition of WTH vs a BM , has given I better perspective on your personal ideology…
Yu are looking at the problem from a sound base…but what beatricity is saying is very complete also…that diversity is the issue…points to the enormous amount of talented and intelligent young people that will still be excluded , because they, ( the childs/students particular learning perspective does not fit the established testing goals.)...which of course…(  have been shown to be unreliable in truthfully measuring the real abilities of students ), diversity speaks to quality….equality speaks to opportunity…we need both…just like a loving home enviroment…points to the parents being not only able to support the childs physical needs…but also emotional….The child….needs both , a strong family , needs both…and strong communities need both….

What I see , as policy in Amerika…in general , doesn’t even come close…under any perspective yu want the use…Equality or Quality are in short supply…especially…especially….went dealing with the subject of public education…( interesting insight…a child can be systematically discriminated against in the public educational system , but can find relative equality and quality in the military…but thats another discussion…).....

Remember if these two variables equality and quality were not rare commodities…there would be no juxtaposition against the two…the argument aways being basically , that…quantity is an acceptable substitute for equality…and that quality was in direct relation to a euro-centric values system…this perspective in and of itself…can be good..if yu fit into that paradigm….but if yu don’t…then it can become problematic….The perspective should be one based in balance…clearly looking at what does work..a curriculm that is inclusive…that presents information in a manner were student and instructor can interact….thats how real learning takes place….It’s hard work and requires some amount of patience…but it ain’t rocket science…Although the end result being that maybe the numbers of more socially conciuos physics scholars..( instead of military recruits )...of diverse heritages…goes up over the next few decades…...Not a bad trade off when yu look at the investment value…..

Wolf…I wrote a response to your post that did not go thru…but in brief…first..I do not know who these “colored progressives” are…but they did not charge those Duke students with anything…the white DA charged them with the crime of rape, this guy wanted to get reelected so he played the race card game the way white politicians have for decades…Only difference is that he for some reason only he can tell yu , thought he could win against affluent white folks…who had the resourses to fight the false charge….Obviously the women involved was emotionally or economically motivated, a competent investigation would have proved helpful…she does have servere credibility problems…

Secondly…how or what does any of that have to do with ” colored progressive “....? I don’t get your logic…...You’re not trying to get your little bit of mileage out of this unfortunate situation are yu , that would be ethically duplicitous , wouldn’t it….hypocritical don’t yu think….? .Possibly appearing to be.. classified as a bigotedly disingenuous attempt to place blame for this whole ugly episode on the black community…....

Third , why is it so obvious now with the affluent white kids being victimized by the criminal justice system.. when it was , has been happening , and still is happening to poor black , hispanic…and native youth for decades…...? Come now Wolf….are yu that naive,delusionally possesed by daftness….?....

Fourth…what the Duke rape case does have to do with ” colored progressive “..is that it points out the facts of racial / socio-economic and judicial disparities in Amerika , that…...ARE ONLY CHAMPIONED BY INDIVIDUALS IN THE BLACK PROGRESSIVE RANKS….When it happens to those peoples children( black folks ), it’s not an issue….but now they have come for your kid ( affluent ,white male ), now… it’s all of a sudden an issue, and further than that….. the doing of Black Progressives…Please Wolf….can I get some of what yu are smoking…...

What next , are yu implying that the only way for white progressives to understand the world outside your little bubble is that a group of young white males , has to leave a strip club after a bachelor party..and become the gunned down victims of some overly zealot undercover police officers ; would this also be viewed as the responsiblity of those ” colored progressives”...Or the operations of psychopathic so-called law enforcement officers….madmen…who have avioded responsiblity for their actions….based off of the institutionalized license to kill , that is championed for so long on these Amerkan shores…...?

Don’t see much in the news about that unfortunate turn of events in NYC…..hmmm….?

If these boys were poor and black or hispanic…and the ” false ” victim was a white woman…( which we all know is the stigmatic reality behind all the emotions involved )...these kids would be in jail..falsely convicted , and fake little white progressive men like the BM would not have said squat..( except to praise the dubious abilities and questionable tactics of law enforcement )......I bet yu wouldn’t have said a thing either…wolf… If I had brought the subject up…yu would have mostly tryed to marginalized the point…....Spare us the sanctimonious act…..

As always BM’s monkeyed response is noted….....

Redhorse,

You make some good observations here which never occurred to me.
• The standardized tests unrelated to a child’s perspective —
Any kind of top down program is handicapped by a lack of understanding and an inability to relate. People start from their experience — imagination and the ability to place yourself in another’s world is in short supply.

It seems to me the solution might be to deal with elementary education as close to home as possible. As it is our money goes into the federal dollar shrinking machinery and is or is not returned to our schools haphazardly.

My wife worked as a volunteer in first grade about thirty years ago in what was called the Title 1 program. There were enough volunteers to allow them to really get to know the kids. This was in a predominantly black school and was as much an education for my wife as for the kids. She also got to know black teachers who clued her in on situations which would have escaped her due to her inexperience which helped her to relate better.

The program was scrapped after too short a time to even follow one class through elementary school.  Another of my reasons for disliking federally managed efforts. Way up there they never see the results with people only dollar costs.

I my opinion the early school years (the earlier the better) are the most important for kids. If they can see be with people showing mutual respect, a unity of purpose and genuine caring about them, I think the later years can brush off a lot of stupid things. My only suggestion is the one of keeping the money at home where there is at least a bit of common grown and better chance at accountability than the fed level.

Maybe were seeing “diversity” as meaning different things. In my work experience it meant someone from human resources insisting the photos in an annual report, company newsletter or product brochure included enough women, racial representation, etc. In one annual report a South African assembly plant showed a group of women putting filters together. The woman reviewing the proof copy loudly remarked, “We can’t use this these people aren’t dark enough and there are no men shown.” All of the employees in the department were in the picture — they were from India (as are a lot of their workers) and there were no males in the dept.

So I think of it as artificial PR, which in the army we called “eyewash.”

• More equality in the military —

This certainly matches my service experience. The noncoms in my company were about half white/black with a few Hispanics. I would say they hassled us without favoritism or discrimination.  Everybody stood guard and pulled KP. The best and worst extra details were as far as I could tell handed out at random. The idea that we might get a Hispanic to clean the grease trap in the mess hall (something none of us liked) never came up :-)When we went to town it was often a racially mixed bunch, something I had little experience with until high school.

I see this as a unifying program. Diversity was there naturally and stayed to a degree. But the military works at making uniformity. Pay was equal, our clothes were the same and we were all learning the same new language. Right Face, About Face, SOP, SNAFU, and “Yes, Sir!”

I see attempts to meet quotas (to avoid lawsuits) as causing more division with little benefit to anyone. I wish I had an easy answer, but it is much easier to criticize than to solve.

WTH and RH, between you two if electricity was brains you would light up a one watt bulb. There is plenty of “unity” under totalitarian states
and your model is the extreme collectivist-statist-socialist-fascist-communist army, I understand perfectly where you are coming from,
WTH. We just don’t agree.
RH, if those kids had been black they NEVER would have been charged
on so utterly flimsy a noncase. The DA has been trying to curry favor
with ignorant local blacks because this is an election year.
See the lewrockwell.com website and two dozen columns by William
Anderson on this disgusting pandering to endemic black racism by
a piece of shit DA who knew that lousy whore’s word wasn’t worth a
good goddamn to begin with, even the other black gal with her contradicted her from the get-go.
WTH, equality is a total myth and white Jews like my wife who spent
a month in a Mississipi jail in 1965 for doing civil rights work have come
to regret it, unless the whole Black Left Nationalist Self-Pitying Anti-White MO FO culture is totally repudiated it will be money down a rathole employing baboons like Redhorse SOLELY because they
are black and incompetent. A white male can’t get a city job in most
urban areas because of set aside quotas for incompetent blacks and
incompetent women, black women being the worst because they fill
BOTH quotas.
RH, you can just Suck My Duke, punk.

As always BM’s monkeyed response is noted…....

WTH….the main aspect that is most interesting or troubling , is that there is an overabudance of money and resources going to the military that could be more wisely spent in the education arena….20 billion off the top of any military spending and we got all new schools in 10 years…another 10 billion for Head Start Programs / curriculm reform….400 billion dollars a year for the military….thats not including the so-called war on terror….this is unacceptable…..

It is unfortunate that yu are unable to regain your sanity after our last exchange….BM. Apparently I ( my words ), have brought yu such mindless dis-ease that all yu are able to do is rant incoherently….Aah….such are the wages of the poor of heart and mind…

BM…your delusions of some kind of euro-aryan progressive nationalism is a pipe dream….The Amerika yu know is dead…the youth don’t want your ol’ racial bigotry…this is why yu do not understand shit…because yu are looking at the world like it was 19 fuckin’ 60….yu ol’ buzzard…Yu are an antique to most young folks( at 60+ ), and so are your viewpoints..

The future wants….DEMANDS… information that is relative to tomorrow , not yesterdays slop….Your ideology…..? ? whatever it is…..is simply a sad and extremely inadequate representation of your own personal demons….until yu surrender and give that negative energy over or back to the Universe…yu will continue to suffer ignorance / poverty of mind and soul / and anger…....

Its your choice…

Redhorse,

Actually we and all other western nations have made extreme military budget cuts (under both Bush 41 and Clinton) as a percentage of GDP. The biggest transfer of money has been to the wealthy as a result of globalization scams and tax cuts.

All of life begins as risk (obvious in nature) and a game of survival. Everything which exists (and even that which does not) has an effect on everything else. I just read the Amazon reviews on a book recommended by Frog, “The Great Risk Shift.” It is obvious the politicians and corporate partners pushing the transfer of our jobs for their personal gain either A. are unaware or, B. don’t care.

Regardless of what they may think this is destroying the U.S. economically, socially and militarily.
 
Some things which do not exist anymore:

• a family-centered society
• job security, incentive to save
• incentive to get more education (jobs will still go to cheaper labor)
• company benefits
• the sense of optimism which aimed toward the “American Dream” which my ancestors reached coming from Europe and so did the progeny of former slaves who moved into factory jobs.

As for national security…

Globalization has made us so impotent we can’t replace HUMVEES and other equipment or even supply enough flak jackets after three and a half years of war. In WWll we produced huge numbers of all materiel after starting from a much lower base.

Our economy is plunging, but like a cartoon character running off a cliff — it hasn’t looked down yet. Our biggest division is becoming economic rather than racial — both inside and from outside the U.S.

We need the kind of unity of purpose which made us the envy of much of the world. In my opinion we are facing threats both internal and external which threaten our survival as a nation.

A unilateral move to be “citizens of the world” leaves us vulnerable to attacks socially (class against class) militarily and economically. I’d include: China, Russia, Radical Muslims and assorted smaller ones. (The opponents size is irrelevant with nuclear events.)

Michael P. Hardesty (aka blondemike) Biography

Brackets [] indicate end note citations.

Mr. Hardesty is a person of strong opinions, but his relationships with fact and logic are weak or non-existent.  Sorting through his thoughts (?), such as they are, is made infinitely more difficult by his inconsistency, reflecting his internal conflicts and scatter-brained approach to his chosen subject matter, which includes principally foreign and domestic politics.

Mr. Hardesty has a wife/companion/housemate/whatever named Nina, and four cats. They all live unhappily in Oakland in a mixed race neighborhood, for which they provide most of the mixing.  Their domestic situation reflects Mr. Hardesty’s combative writing style, as they are involved in legal actions against their neighbors and their veterinarian, and arguments with the Oakland Police Department. 

At various times, Mr. Hardesty has claimed to have a Ph.D. and a moderately high IQ; both claims are certainly spurious.  Mr. Hardesty’s footprints are all over the Internet, with no indication of academic accomplishment, much less intelligence.  But do not confuse our Mr. Michael P. Hardesty with Michael P. Hardesty, the NOAA scientist, or Michael P. Hardesty, the artist, or Michael P. Hardesty, the business executive, and possibly not Michael P. Hardesty, the felon convicted of cocaine and weapons possession.  But it is interesting that our Michael P. Hardesty talks of his .357 Magnum, and the felonious Michael P. Hardesty had a .357 Magnum.  As a convicted felon, the felonious Michael P. Hardesty would be forbidden to own a weapon, so that excludes our Michael P. Hardesty.  Right?

Regardless of any felonicity, our friend Mike’s inconsistency is well documented.  As a left-liberal, Mike has certain assumed attitudes, but his belief system is intermittently shaken by reality:

My housemate and I have been almost the sole whites living in a largely Afro-American neighborhood as homeowners the past four years. Our experiences have caused us to revise our formerly glib left-liberal assumptions on race, welfare, civil rights, affirmative action, gun control, identity politics, rent control, ad nauseam. [1]

Maybe that explains the Mag.

Mike is also inconsistent in his political writings.  If you have been following his semi-literate arguments, Mike is a cultic follower of Noam Chomsky.  Sometimes.

I’ve known and corresponded with Chomsky for almost two decades and recently parted ways with him over his god complex, refusal to acknowledge any errors at all, his recent contortions on the nonexistent silent genocide in Afghanistan and the preposterous lie that thousands or millions may have died as a result of Clinton’s bombing of the Sudan pharmaceutical factory in error. And many more issues where I have butted heads with him.  [2]

But opposites attract, and likes repel.  Mike “refus(es) to acknowledge any errors at all”, and he proclaims “genocide” by capitalism where none exists.  No wonder Mike broke with Chomsky, but you couldn’t tell it from his writings, because Mike has consistently argued on ITT that Chomsky is so great. 

Mike’s writing style may be characterized as haphazard, obscene, and scatalogical, but if it were not scatalogic, it would have no logic at all.  He is big into labels: dumb, stupid, moron, liar, bastard.  But he is opposed to ad hominem attacks.  Go figure.  His signature spelling/grammar error is his use of “your” when he means the homophonic contraction “you’re”.  MIKE IS ALSO BIG ON ALL CAPS AND LOTS OF EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND QUESTION MARKS???????????

Besides ITT, Mike has had running arguments in many Internet venues, which make for interesting reading up to a point, when the story line collapses into sameness and boredom.  Mike has been banned from several sites.  [2], [3]

Mike is big on making idle and not-so-idle threats from behind the (former) security of his keyboard, including advocating use of the Mag and decapitation.  Mike wants me to give him my location so he can come kick my butt.  But he did not give his location, I had to go find it.  It is my firm belief that Mike is of short stature, probably not more than 5’-6”.  This is based on his constant and irrelevant references to size, a classic example of the projection defense mechanism; Mike calls me a little man, because he is insecure about his height.  But I had to knock the heels off my combat boots to get under the height restrictions to get into airborne school.  You still want to kick butt, Michael P.?

[1]  http://search.eastbayexpress.com/Issues/2001-07-25/news/letters.html

[2] http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2004/11/chomskys_outlet.html

[3]  Blog and website citations:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/discuss/1774/

http://www.oaklandnews.com/archives/000061.html

http://www.tomgpalmer.com/archives/015527.php

http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/article.cfm?archiveDate=12-28-01&story yID=9248

http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/hardesty.htm

http://www.berkeleydaily.org/opinion_article.cfm?archiveDate=12-28-01&sto oryID=9248

http://www.sfweekly.com/Issues/1998-04-15/news/letters.html

scorp,

Thanks for the BM data. Actually, I was beginning to feel a bit guilty for yanking his chain and foe some of my insults. At least I can say that anyone who likes animals can’t be all bad.

I have been coming to this site for some time now and generally disagree with the thrust of the articles, but must admit that through the exchange of ideas here some of my own have been modified. There is no substitute for hearing people relate their personal experiences regarding an issue.  We all come at life’s problems with different biases born of experience, indoctrination, etc., but broadening our thinking to realize there are unrealized alternative possibilities keeps life interesting.
Choosing an emotional response rather than rational seems to be a universal temptation.

About all I know of Asian thinking is their view on the inter relatedness of everything. The older I get the more sensible this becomes.

Scorp, as usual you are full of shit. Just for the record I’m 6’1.
I’m glad your Fed employers have helped you in your “research.”
Sure, I’ll kick your stinky butt, punk. I’ve whipped you in every
intellectual exchange we’ve had and I correctly called the shots
on your govt involvement several weeks back on the other ITT thread
because I could see how testy you became on the subject of Paul
Brenner and his reign in Occupied Iraq. To date you have not made
one COHERENT argument, much less a refutation of any sort.
You have specialized in ad hominem attacks in lieu of serious
argument.
The record of five centuries of genocide under capitalism is rather
well documented by scholars ranging from Harry Elmer Barnes to
Howard Zinn to Eugene Genovese to most historians. It’s not even
controversial. Anywhere from ten to one hundred million Blacks were
killed in the very capitalistic slave trade, anywhere from a few million
to 10 to 35 million “Indians” killed north of the Rio Grande by the
capitalistic empires of Britain & France and many more killed south
of the Rio Grande by the capitalistic empire of the Spanairds.
Several hundred thousand Filipinos killed by the US in the “liberation”
of the Phillipines in 1898. Ergo for Cuba, Hawaii and Puerto Rico at
the same time. Hundreds of thousands killed by capitalist US proxy
terror states in El Salvador, Guatemala, Brazil, Chile, Haiti, the Dominican
Republic, Argentina, Colombia, Peru, Panama, Nicaragua etc. just during
the course of the 20th century.
Actually hundreds of thousands of Nicaraguans alone were
killed by the US fascist contra thugs. See Carleton Beals
and J. Fred Rippy just on capitalism’s huge death toll in Latin
America. Chomsky is good here too but only one of many.
On Chomsky, just like anyone else, I laud him when he’s right
and criticize him when he’s wrong. I know that’s kind of complex
for your tiny mind, “Scorp.”
See William Blum’s 1983 book CIA for the estimates of six million
killed by the US Capitalist foreign policy from 1945-1980. And that
figure is sadly out of date today.
Your is as valid as you’re. When one is exclusively focussing on an
individual item, then you’re is appropriate, when a more general or
collective sense is meant, then your is appropriate. Coming from
someone like yourself who can’t write a coherent sentence, who
can’t spell the simplest words and whose sentence structure is often
unintelligible, the grammar lessons are a hoot.
I’m glad my caps the other day so got under your skin, “Scorp” or
whatever your real identity is. The reason I did it big time on that
particular occasion was that I was tired of repeating the same points
over ad infinitum. I thought maybe you would catch it if it were bolded
and apparently you did because you have never stopped whining
ever since.
I’ve never been convicted of a felony or any other crime. Your statement
here is per se libelous and if you would reveal your name & address,
I’d be happy to sue you. The rest of your comments are the usual
venomous garbage but the felony statement is a pure libel.
Philosophically I have been completely consistent in my left libertarian
views. Politically I’ve changed my mind when the facts warranted it
or I discovered a better interpretation of events.
Scorp, you are a coward, a lowlife, a libeler and an agent provocateur.
The only site I was ever banned from was the Oakland News, run by
a local Demo Party hack named Jeannette Sherwin. She regularly
banned people she disagreed with including most members of
the Oakland City Council. Shortly after she banned me she was struck
dead. Good riddance was the almost universal reaction here.
Redhorse, as usual your drug and drink induced words make no
sense.
WTH, you better get your facts from other than a govt financed agent
provocateur like “Scorp.”
Again, “Scorp” I challenge you to reveal your real identity.

Coming from a schizo….I’ll take your comments as proof of the fact , that yu are a rambling idiot…lost in his own anal-retentive drama…..
It’s funny how close Scorps outline of your personality…is so close to what Redhorse imaged…even down to the fact that your neighbors find yu obnoxious….Why am I not surprized…....................’ toon..

Redhorse, Scorp is a rightwing white trash version of you.
It’s no more complicated than that. Scorp is not only a
government agent provocateur but a prime example of
what Senator Robert Byrd, D, W. VA, called
a “whigger.” See if you can figure that one out.
The only neighbors that don’t like us are two criminals, we have
great relations with all the rest including several black families.
They share our distaste for black criminals like yourself.
Nina is the captain of our neighborhood crime alert group.
Please spare us the pseudo-psych ramblings. We stopped
our heavy giving to the United Negro College Fund when they
started turning out too many illiterates like yourself.
Scorp, WTH and you MIGHT light up a one watt bulb if
electricity were brains on your best days.
What be yo’ ghetto, little hinepos ? Philly ? Camden ?

My housemate and I have been almost the sole whites living in a largely Afro-American neighborhood as homeowners the past four years. Our experiences have caused us to revise our formerly glib left-liberal assumptions on race, welfare, civil rights, affirmative action, gun control, identity politics, rent control, ad nauseam.

The only neighbors that don’t like us are two criminals, we have great relations with all the rest including several black families.

So, will the real Mr. Hardesty please stand up?  Are things so bad in your neighborhood that it has caused you “to revise our formerly glib left-liberal assumptions on race, welfare, civil rights, affirmative action, gun control, identity politics, rent control, ad nauseam (sic)” or do you really “have great relations with all the rest including several black families”?  Or do you just say any damn-fool thing that pops into your head at the moment?  And where does the Mag fit into all this?

No….BM…..Scorp is not a friend of the Redhorse…..Based off of the Political Compass scores yu are more likely to see eye to eye with the Scorp , at least on matters of economics..Didn’t yu score…somewhere in the fascist range…....? .chucky..

The last quote doesn’t contradict the earlier quote. It’s a difference of
several years and getting to know our noncriminal neighbors.
When we were the first whites we did run into some serious problems
from just a few people but the others stood by and ignored it. As we
have gotten established over the last decade relationships have now
improved. Many blacks are quite conservative on noncivil rights issues
such as welfare, affirmative action, rent control, gun control, school
busing and we strongly share their views. My wife comes from a leftist
background and I originally from a libertarian background. 
We still have a couple of black criminal neighbors but we try to
give them wide berth. And several blacks now share our negative
attitude towards the whole lumpen mo fo black anti-culture.
Redhorse, I still don’t know the meaning of my score in that test.

Scorp & Redhorse,

Life is funny. A couple days a ago I made an appeal on this thread for more unity — no way did I expect results so soon. BM has lumped the three of us together as a conspiracy in the making. We’re about to takeover an electric grid!

Unity is here!

I must admit I am begining to wonder about my own identity though. I’m being discribed at times as a Nazi and then in as in league with a commie and “criminal”. I know at times I have agreed with each of you on different issues. Left, Right, Left, Right,Left, Right, Left, Right — I’d say he’s marching to a his own drummer.

There are so many accusations flying around…“government agent,” long term genocide — more plots than a collection of spy novels. I didn’t realize just how exciting my life had become until now.

:-)

Blondie,

Calm down. This is just a discussion venue, not a recruiting forum for a world takerover. For a while how about trying to just state your own position, read some other ones, kick back, relax and give different ideas some thought.

Life is too short for so much anger. (And it can make it still shorter.)

I’d like to know what the Jews have done to M. Hardesty to make him so hostile to them. Certainly Jews have nothing to do with the maladies of the distinguished M. Hardesty!!

Chicago, I never intended on bringing up the subject of holocaust
revisionism but was only replying to what appeared to be an implication
by Scorp that Crystal Night was the start of the so-called holocaust.
Scorp later denied that he meant to say that. Okay.
I pointed out that even the establishment “scholars” here date it from
summer 1942-summer 1944. You then burst in with a crazed attack
on me and I decided to respond. You do not speak for the “Jewish
people.”  You would not have the slightest knowledge of my interactions
with many Jews, so why bother to comment ? My wife is Jewish and
that’s all you need to know.
WTH, your right that I am taking this much too seriously. I just found
Scorp’s “research” quite creepy. And it was part of a pattern to discredit
the message by attacking the messenger.
Scorp, mag is strictly for self-protection. I don’t hunt, am not a
vegetarian nut but it’s just not my bag. I support the NRA.  One
of the few pressure groups worth a damn.

That’s the point ol’ man….nobody here can understand and or figure out your message….BM….Not WTH , nor Cabbie…..certianly not Redhorse….even your ol’ friend David…came by…and was friendly…but yu cursed him too….So…at great risk too further boredom….What the hell is your message….? Because trashing black folks will only get yu bonus points with the Klan or Micheal Richards…...YU HAVE NO MESSAGE….

Scorp, I have to add that you would have been banned
from Jeannette Sherwin’s online only Oakland News.
She was a hardcore Democratic Party hack and was furious
with Nina & I for voting for Nader in 2000. I tried to patiently
explain to her why even from a progressive viewpoint the
Dems were a fraud. I wasn’t endorsing the GOP, just bashing
the Dems and I did support the Gray Davis recall. I voted for
Tom McClintock, an intelligent conservative Republican because
I agreed with him on economic issues but not on abortion, etc.
Arnie’s a dunce but better than Davis. She had a fit. Her ex was
Carl Pope, head of the Sierra club whom I went to high school
with back near DC. They had adopted a black orphan and he
turned out to be the kid from hell, has been in state prison for
many years. Jeannette ending up HATING blacks because she
lived near door to a huge public housing project in north Oakland.
There were shootings and knifings galore, public defecation and
urination, drug dealing, public sex, tire slashings, etc., all the common
stuff in too many neighborhoods. But she was so politically correct
that she still voted against proposals by black statesman Ward Connerly
to end affirmative action ! I labelled the Demo replacement
candidate, Bustamante, as Bustabeaner because he was a worthless
halfassed professional Latino. She thought that was “racist.”
Even though she regularly used the N word. He went down in flames
and even some top Demo Party officials backed The Terminator instead.
Last I heard Jeannette was in a very warm, southerly place.

Horse, you can’t even spell MICHAEL !
Damn, but your a stupid SOB. I never attacked
ALL black folks but only the black communist trash
that thinks like you.
David and I are quite friendly.
I don’t fit a simpleminded left-right pattern and it drives
all the ideologues here crazy !
At heart I’m blacker than you, horse, in the good affirmative
sense of black being the strongest color. Have no use for
these faux, fake high yeller negroes like you.
Chicago, I must confess that my wife does have a very low
opinion of most Jewish males and after meeting her father
& brother I could understand why. As a good progressive I try
to urge her not to generalize. Unfortunately, Chicago, people
like you CREATE anti-semitism. You are your own worst enemy.
I’m willing to take you on as a therapy patient but my rates are
very high.
Scorp, I never received my Ph.D’s from Eureka College.
That strictly is cow country.

WTH…......yu do have an eye for the ironic…..I’ll make sure I’m sitting when I laugh about that one….I did try to briefly make that point to BM….but yu know how that ended…..the guys an enigma….

So now Redhorse , WTH….and Scorp are bedfellows in conspiracies…..I would guess that stranger scenarios have appeared….

WTH,

You seem slightly conservative but well informed, fair, and reasonable. Do you have any comments on BM’s violent commitment to Holocaust Revisionism? It’s really quite frightening!! I never thought I’d see this stuff on the ITT blog even from the worst trolls. What are your thoughts?

Redhorse, if you think that only Klansmen are fed of up
of massive Afro anti-social behavior, you are one deluded
fool. Most of the GOP victories since 1966 have been due to
Middle American backlash against massive black criminality.
31% of Oaktown but 78% of the crimes. 8% of Frisco but at
least 60% of the crime.
Time for a reality check, bro.  In 1991 Duke won 60% of the
Euro American vote running for Governor of Louisiana.
He’s a hell of a handsome dude since his plastic surgery too.
At the time Nina and I cheered his defeat but now….....................

Chicago, don’t pester WTH with your holohoax obsessions and
where do you get off applying the adjective “violent” to me ?
Someone who disagrees with you is per se anti-Jewish and violent ??????????????????
Troll definition———someone who beats your ass in a debate.
Redhorse, are you capable of writing a coherent, completed
sentence ?

You have proven NONE of your baseless and violently hateful assertions. Of Course HR is bigotry. To negate the reality of the worst planned genocide ever in order to hold it up rather as an example of the pernicious and deceitful nature of the victims who scored the entire myth at the expense of all humanity is to you not a bigoted act? You are truely nuts. Since you are the ones accusing the Jews and others of lying than the burden of proof is on you to show the story is false. Wiesenthal and other scholars have proven the opposite to the satisfaction of most people including many of the best professional historians.

Why does Nina disdain Jewish males? They are amoung the most successful and loving mates and most women like them.

.....” Redhorse . if you think that only Klansmen are [ fed of up of ]massive Afro-anti-social behavior….”  BM…..what the HELL are yu trying to say….?  When you’re mad , yu have a real problem with writing coherent statements…........true.

The nations move to the right has nothing to do with anything but for the fact that this nation is full of a bunch of superstitious rednecks such as yourself…Typical to blame your ignorance on others…so childish of you….ol ’ boy..

I never claimed to have proven anything. I referred you to the sources
so you can check it out yourself.  You have never proven anything either.
I reiterated only the main conclusions and referred you to the research.
No, I have no burden of proof as I am doubting the positive assertions
made. And if you go to look up the refutations of Wiesenthal, Wiesel,
etc., you’ll see exactly where their critics have honed in.
Why are you so frightened to check them out ?
On the Jewish male issue just take a long look in the mirror and you’ll
see what Nina was referring to. Your last statement is unbelievably comical.
It was no accident that all the founders of modern feminism
are Jewish females. What and who do you think they were rebelling
against ?
RH, I very clearly wrote down what I intended to say in plain english.
I realize that is not your native tongue but why should that be my
problem ?

BM says….” RH , I very clearly wrote down what I intended to say in plain english…..” 

WRONG AGAIN…..yu impudent fool , please then , explain the phrase….( fed of up of )...? .That is not clear english…the edit function….fool. just use the edit function…..HaHaHaHaHa…..................’ toon.

Redhorse,

“WTH…......yu do have an eye for the ironic…..I’ll make sure I’m sitting when I laugh about that one….”

I try to have a little fun every day, but I do think we have far more to unite us than divide us — Including Blondemike, even if he doesn’t realize it.  After all, none of us are going to get out of this alive. (Except a few select fundamentalists in each religion, of course!  :-)
————————-
“The nations move to the right has nothing to do with anything but for the fact that this nation is full of a bunch of superstitious rednecks such as yourself…”

I don’t think what is happening is so much a move to the right as it is a move by the elite who have captured the congress (many who also see themselves as above the ordinary person) and are sucking the country dry.

Globalization has made this an international Monopoly game and we don’t get to pass go and collect anything except a pink slip.

They know how to play us against each other just like the Nazis did in the 1930s in Europe.

(see my comments to Cabby which follow)

RH, if I put an extra “of” in that sentence, I apologize. But receiving
grammar lessons from you is analogous to a lecture on sobriety
from the town drunk !
The meaning of my sentence is clear to all but the hopelessly
retarded.

Cabby,

I have a hard time with the carelessness with which the terms left/right, liberal/conservative get slapped on people, issues, motives. I think of myself as a conservative in the sense that I want to preserve the best of the America where I grew up and extend it to the whole country. (Other countries having it is OK, but it’s their choice.)

I thinking of things like:  strong family relationships, good jobs, enough extra to save and plan for the future, secure neighborhoods, basic educational opportunities, individual responsibility.

However, I tend toward a more liberal approach to personal social issues — religious views, sexual preferences, and even personal safety — I believe are individual choice issues. I resent government’s intrusion with laws regarding seat belts, food choices, tobacco, drug use, etc. — freedom should include the right to make stupid choices and exclude others from making those choices for you.

But the labels often are confusing or misleading. Too often those claiming to be conservative have given away what I want to preserve and liberals have diminished our liberties. I believe issues and people should be evaluated individually and rarely in broad, general terms.
—————

The holocaust:

Eisenhower made an effort to prevent the denial by making Germans view the camps, bury bodies and the German government has commendably preserved the evidence for all to see.

I have visited Dachau and even though I had read about it, seen movies and photos and talked with a few former prisoners, I found being there to be one of my most distressing and dismal experiences.
I was alone in the museum when a bus load of Italian teenagers arrived. They were laughing and fooling around like all kids — until they entered the first room with photos of the camp in operation. I suppose they may have heard and seen little of it prior to that. The silence remained through our entire visit.

It doesn’t really matter to me what date is calculated to be the “official” start of the holocaust, what matters is that people realize just how it could happen and how even those “only taking orders” could allow it and even participate in it.

The Nazis gradually instituted the policies which led to the elimination of millions of people. They began with those who had committed crimes against the state — those who any law abiding citizen would agree had it coming for the public good. They moved on to some “less desirable” categories of individuals. They continued to include other segments of society “for the good of the rest.”

All the while the propaganda was repeated through the various media until it was absorbed into the entire system… and too late for exclusion of the group which included you.
Here is an inadequate simile, but what I see as a parallel event in technique and effect to a degree right here and now. Globalization as represented by NAFTA (I had already seen some of it a few years earlier.) was “only going to effect low-end jobs.” These were mostly non-union and non-white collar jobs, so there was no public outcry.

Then it slowly began to creep into manufacturing, but the older (highest paid) workers were given early retirement incentives. The next wave were intimidated by possible loss of health care benefits or similar threats.

It moved on into middle management and so forth — after all, technology made them “unnecessary” now. Soon it became imperative to a company’s survival to get rid of the most well paid employees (except of course an elite few). They hated to have to tell you that you were being cut and were “just following good business practices.”

In both the Nazi holocaust and our move to the “service economy” denial is rampant and either born of ignorance or complicity.

WTH, you simply need to honestly look at the revisionist works which
debunk the myth of gassings or mass killings at Dachau, even the
Jewish Agency admitted no death camps on German soil. They
claim it all took place in Poland but that has been debunked bigtime.
I can recommend several sites and specific print books. There were
plenty of US-UK-French crimes during the war and after the war against
German civilians, I doubt Ike ever showed those tours.
The Nazis never exterminated millions of civilians in a centrally planned
manner primarily using gas chambers as was commonly claimed.
The Germans certainly committed their share of atrocities and were
as capable of killing as anyone else, it just never happened as described.
That 1-2 million European Jews died of all causes in
Europe during WW 2 is a tragedy but the lying, unconscionable
exaggeration & exploitation of this needs to end now.
I agree with your general take on the inadequacy of the left/right
paradigm to explain things.
Anyway if people want to challenge their own prejudices here I’ve
given the proper references. If not, nothing to discuss.

Blondemike,

I’m not going to get into a head count which to me is not the issue. You can decide for yourself if a million one way or another defines an atrocity verses a “simple mass murder.” The horrors were individually experienced person by person.

Dachau was not labeled as a death camp, however 30,000 people died there. There were ovens for disposal of bodies. There were concrete punishment cells too small to lie in. There were people stacked on bunks of plain boards, four to a bunk, four to six bunks high, one thin blanket for the four, without heat in winter. They were starved, beaten and worked to death.

For a first hand written account read “Man’s Search for Meaning,” by Viktor Frankel. He spent part of his three years in captivity at Dachau. I took a class this fall conducted by a U.S. soldier who was there at the end of the war. I talked with a book binder who had a shop in my city ten years after the war who was at Auschwitz.

I have in front of me right now the book with photos of Dachau which I got on my visit there. Photos of people strung up with their hands behind their backs, tied to trees and their feet two feet off the ground. The Nazis performed medical experiments on prisoners at Dachau testing how long it would take to freeze to death in ice water or how best to bring a body temperature back up it “rescued” before freezing.

This program was conducted as systematically as the rest of the German war effort with detailed records kept and efficiency reports as well. I see absolutely no reason to doubt it happened just as terribly as the worst accounts have said.

If you choose to think of this as “lying, unconscionable exaggeration & exploitation” you may do so — it’s your decision, but I find it puzzling as to why you would do so.

What I have seen, heard and read convinces me it is the absolute truth.

WTH, it’s not JUST the headcount although after religiously batting
that around for 60 years the establishment can’t wiggle out scot free
if the number is vastly inflated.
Three main elements are in contention here.
1) There was no centrally planned conspiracy to exterminate
Europe’s Jews.
2) There were no gas chambers, which heretofore been presented
as the main engine of extermination.
3) The six million figure is grossly inflated.
These are the revisionist contentions and this is what people in two
dozen countries go to prison for asserting.
Other issues such as the now totally discredited lampshades
and bars of soap of human skin are peripheral points as well
as the likely possibility that Anne Frank’s “Diary’ was probably
written after WW2 by her Dad or someone he hired.
Photos can be doctored and even Jewish sources do not claim
Dachau as an extermination camp anymore. There is book available
from ihr.org titled Innocent At Dachau, you might read it.
99% of the stuff about Mengele and human torture is bullshit.
The Nazis in fact executed wardens of camps that allowed prisoner
abuse, they wanted the Jews for slave labor and they were concerned
about them as a Fifth Column while they were fighting a three front war.
None of the orthodox establishment Jewish or Gentile historians claim
that any even small portion of what they describe as the holocaust
(since 1970) died from experiments or torture.
You have only read one side of the established propaganda.
To come to an intelligent conclusion you have to read where the
orthodox version is wrong.
Up to the “holocaust” the standard and revisionist versions do not
greatly disagree, they all acknowledge the Nazi persecution of the
Jews. They make differ over claims of many killings on Crystal
Night (not true) but both sides agree that till late 1941 the Nazi goal
was emigration and not extermination of the Jews of Europe.
I can only refer to sources so you check your ingrained views here.
If you are too scared to have your assumptions or premises questioned
that’s your business. I’m not trying to convert anyone.
They had crematoriums for the disposal of the dead, most were NOT
worked to death and Frankl’s account has been called into question.
They were not burned alive in “ovens” only after death cremated which
was widely accepted in Europe and the practical way to cope with so
many deaths caused BY DISEASE DUE TO ALLIED BOMBING AND
BLOCKADE OF SUPPLIES. This doesn’t absolve the Nazis, the
Germans probably killed 30 million of each other in the 30 Years
War. No one is saying that they couldn’t do it, they just didn’t do it
as conventionally. Originally the US Army claimed 200,000 died
at Dachau and there were active gas chambers then they switched
only after revisionists nailed those lies.
Nor was it in any possible to “secretly” murder a race of six million people !
A little critical thinking is in order here and less reliance on
fabricated photos & invented atrocity tales.

The Hoax of the 20th Century by Arthur Butz, The Dissolution of East
European Jewry by Walter N. Sanning, The Drama of the European
Jews & The Real Eichmann Trial by Paul Rassinier, a Dora & Buchenwald survivor, Dissecting The Holocaust and Lectures
On The Holocaust, edited by Germar Rudolf are good books to read.
The monographs Did Six Million Really Die ? by Richard Harwood
and Not Guilty At Nuremberg by Carlos Porter are ok.
Carlo Mattogno has written several very long books on Auschwitz,
Treblinka, Belzec, et al, available from Rudolf’s Castle Hill Publishers
in Chicago, see ihr.org site too.

Even if Hitler had killed six million he’d still be a piker compared
to Mao, Stalin and the US Empire which may have killed hundreds
of millions. Can give you sources there too.
Chiang Kai-Chek killed ten million leftists in 1927 alone.
US slaughter of African slaves and Indians MIGHT be in the many
tens of millions. LBJ backed the slaughter of a million Indonesians
in 1965-68 rightist takeover and Ford-Kissinger 1/3rd (!) of East Timor
in 1975-78 genocide (200,000 out of 600,000 equivalent to 100 million
Americans here.)

.......We gonna smash their brains in…cause they ain’t got nothin’ in ‘em…...

Ooh…..the hypocritical nonsense the blinde one(BM), can produce…..It is said that most of the worlds waste is produced by the US….Now we know who produces it , that nazi bastard spawn…BM.

Mr.Clean up the Black Criminals , is ready and willing to make broad considerations for a mass murderer such as Hilter….but is unwilling to consider the pedogogical juxtaposition of crime in relation to racism….much less come forward with any reasonable solutions concerning the economical dysfunctionality of the Amerikan way of dealing with the problem…...

But he’s sympathetic to a major player in a war that slaughtered over 50 million people…..............amazingly ’ toonish of yu BM….............

The fool even has documentation…got more books on this subject then any other subject I’ve seen him post about….Now I understand the dilemma of BM’s daftness on many other subjects….HE’S GOT HIS NOSE BURIED IN THE ASS CRACK OF NAZI PROPOGANDIZED LITERATURE…

Your hypocriticalized duplicities remind the Redhorse of those men who are on the ” down low…” Meaning that they will have sex with men ( does Nina know.) ....but as long as they don’t use a condom…they don’t consider themselves homosexual….The reasoning makes no sense , but that’s how they feel…

BM , you remind the Horse of that backward way of thinkology , your denial complex is so reactionary..You just make it up as you go , using any tidbit of rhetoricalized propoganda to sell your viewpoint , it’s all a subjectivity with you BM…no broader considerations…...

I trust a skeptic such as WTH…......ain’t buying.

Blondemike,

“1) There was no centrally planned conspiracy to exterminate Europe’s Jews.” — Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state — they had plans for everything and kept excellent records.

“ 2) There were no gas chambers, which heretofore been presented as the main engine of extermination.”— A while back I wrote concerning the difficulty in proving a negative assertion. (If a blind man doesn’t see it that does not mean it is not there.)

“3) The six million figure is grossly inflated.” — The exact number is irrelevant to me.

“Photos can be doctored…” “... they wanted the Jews for slave labor…”— Agreed! (By revisionists as well as the historians.)

“You have only read one side of the established propaganda. To come to an intelligent conclusion you have to read where the orthodox version is wrong.”

You are ignoring what I wrote:

“I have visited Dachau and even though I had read about it, seen movies and photos and talked with a few former prisoners,...”

I talked with one former concentration camp inmate who ran a book binding shop locally. I have spoken with GIs who saw Dachau. I recently attended a class where one lectured to counter the revisionist stuff now being published.
“If you are too scared to have your assumptions or premises questioned that’s your business. I’m not trying to convert anyone.”

Scared? Of what? Skeptic is my middle name — I have no fear of changing my beliefs.
Have you read Frankel’s book? It is not primarily an attempt to verify the holocaust. He apparently saw no reason to do that. It is a testimony to the reactions of individuals under extreme circumstances — admirable behavior, reprehensible and a whole range in between.

Some people know how to pick a topic and will do anything to sell a book — we see it on every controversial issue.

Why do you want to believe this never happened?

Also, if you truly believe that the U.S. has had such a perverse, long range history — why do you continue to live here?

Redhorse, you have shit for brains. I have NO sympathy for any of
the major players in WW2, FDR, Tojo, Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, etc.
WTH is not a skeptic, he merely bought the side which propagandized
him first. I understand perfectly. The Jesuits used to say Give us your
child for the first six years and he’s ours for life.
Blacks over here just since WW2 have probably killed many more
people than Hitler and committed many more crimes.
Ever hear of the Congo ? The cannibals there have killed five million
of their own in just the last few years. If you look at the total death toll
of Africans killing each just since 1960 they dwarf Hitler in the mass
murder department.
If you would care to give your real name and address I’d be happy to
sue for your libel of me as a homosexual. But being the coward that
you are, I know you will decline.
Frankly the N word applies to you in spades (pun intended.)
Go ply your “sociological” excuses for black crime elsewhere,
I’m sick of having to reinvent the wheel every day with you.

WTH, Nazi Germany was NOT a totalitarian state like Russia and
they didn’t have plans for everything. They were in fact the last
major WW2 combatant to adopt central planning.
“Totalitarian” was a propaganda term invented in the 30s and
applied to Mussolini but not Stalin. So much for that.
On the alleged gas chambers, death stats and doctored photos
I have already referred you to sources that totally refute the conventional
version. Why are you so scared to look at them ?
If revisionists are doctoring photos let us know.
Eyewitness testimony IS NOTORIOUSLY UNRELIABLE.
Ask any cop or DA.
YOU SAW THE PROPAGANDA THEY WANTED YOU TO SEE
AT DACHAU. I’ve been kind enough to refer you to the refutations
of same.
You show no critical thought or skepticism whatsoever on this issue.
I NEVER said nothing happened. I just took issue with three central
claims. Apparently you can read no more carefully than you can think.
As to the incredible McCarthyite premise in your last sentence that
I should leave the country so the assholes that misrun it can have
free rein, why don’t you just shove it up your stinky ass ???????????
Don’t address me anymore and I’ll refrain from addressing you.

Blondemike,

I merely asked the question, “Why do you stay here if you think the U.S. is so bad, ” — never said you should leave. Apparently it was too difficult a question, so you replied in your usual blather…

If you can’t dazzle them with with knowledge, baffle them with bullshit. Right?

I will agree not to address anything your way and I’ll expect the same consideration in reurn.

You got it. But no BS from me, only reasoned argument & specific refs.
Your comment sure read like Love it or Leave it.

blondie, don’t waste any more time with these circle jerkers like wth, shitcago cabbie, redhorse, the major, chessfrog, the other african fruitcakes here. you guys might want consider moving to honululu and leave that oaktown nonsense. the bay area has been taken over by commie nuts, it’s going downhill at least in the central cities like frisco,
oaktown, richmond, berzerkeley. honululu pd take no shit from ghetto punks like redhorse. his ass be jugged before he could say james brown’s mama. we just elected a repub guv here in hawaii. and the maoist bookstore closed down.

Another computer, another ISP and you’re good to go.  Right, Mike?  Er, Jack?  Whoever you happen to be at any given momemt.

Yu know…Major Major…first…good to hear from yu again…Secondly…sense the emergence of the semi-literate Hawaii Jack….Blondie Mcdick…my bad….mike , has been quite silent…..

Now this is odd…because BM…has been very vocal , as of late…but not a peep , from the creep….sense the jack…started all his crap…....

Can I get a dap….for my average rap….?

Good day Major Major…......................

major, four sentences, well, sort of sentences…...i’m overwhelmed !
of course, your words make no sense but what else is new ? i can’t speak for blondie but after a thorough reading of many threads here on this board i think he got weary of repeating himself a zillion times to try to reason with black savages and white untermensch like major, major.
i’m up for it, love taking apart leftist assholes and neocon kosher coonfakers. redhorse, are you on crack, crank, horse or pcb ? i’ve met some stupid ass blacks but you are the dumbest mutha i’ve met yet.

HaHaHa….the insults are old….please , gemme something better…ol’ dude….I still can get yu that deal on a walker…..?

Redhorse,  Frog, Cabby, David, Major, Scorp, etc. (I agreed not to address BM anymore.)

It looks like this topic has about run its course. The deterioration of discussion to mud slinging makes it look like we’re running for office :-)

We’ll find something soon for us to chew on —
Hey, with old Saddam reportedly a few inches taller, we ought to be getting claims of his appearance in Argentina in a condo with Hitler and Elvis by the revisionists.  Or, maybe that he has been given a new ID and working for the CIA. How about the idea that he really was a CIA plant for 35 years? Hmmm…Wonder what Nostradamus had to say about all this.

Whatever, it should make at least a few novels and a movie or two before long.

—————————
Sorry, all about that, but with ‘06 about finished I’m not into heavy stuff today.

Happy New Year too all! (If you hear from Mike wish him one too. He could use a bit of cheering up.)

WTH

Another computer, another ISP and you’re good to go.  Right, Mike?  Er, Jack?  Whoever you happen to be at any given moment.

Major, I have noticed the similarities between Mike and Jack too.

One doesn’t even need another computer and ISP to create a second username. I think all one needs is another email address.

If Jack and Mike are the same person I can’t say I blame him for creating a second username as everyone wants to have a friend. Having offended everyone else at this forum Mike and Jack are truly made for each other.

For what it’s worth…if you google Mike Hardesty, Z magazine….one of the links you get is this discussion on White Progressives….Now I don’t think ol’ BM , would purposefully out himself ( BM is an extremely pretentious individual )...with all the ugliness and inarticulate bigoted comments that he has made….but it is not particularly clear to the unaware , that blondemike and Mike Hardesty are the same person…...

Without an indepth study of the Hardesty articles…I will say , that it appears he is a well read , articulate individual….one would guess he is slumming or , basically , clearing the air for himself personally…knowing that comments such as the ones made by himself on this site ( ITT ), would be in total conflict with his public agendas….

Actually I do have two e-mail addresses…maybe I could become NattyRed….or RockHorse…....AfrikanRed…........Any suggestions maybe…....?

Please ... one Redhorse is enough = )

The reason your search shows this thread as a result is because on the first page Mike made a post referencing Z Mag.

I wrote a lengthy piece for Z Magazine in April, 1990 - Posted by blondemike on Dec 19, 2006 at 5:25 PM

Happy New Year!

Yes…you have a good 2007 also….I remember him making several references to Z magazine…that he had wrote articles for Z , but when googled , initially I didn’t find much….....

This is WhisperingHorse….how about that one…..WhisperingHorse…......I like it…new for 2007….

How about HoarseWhisperer?

I think other than a few book reviews that Mike didn’t actualy get much published. Submitted an article in 1990 but maybe not published. Or so it would seem for an online copy at least

See this link and look for Posted by Michael Hardesty on Dec 23, 2004 at 11:03 AM

Anyways, enough Sherlocking. Mike (aka. Jack) was interesting and quite a character but I won’t miss him too much. And like a bad cold we may yet see him again in some new incarnation.

Saddam was installed by the CIA in an anti-left coup in 1969 and
he was supported by carter and then reagan in his invasion of iran
in 1980, not even controversial history, every one has seen the picture
of Rumsfeld shaking hands with him in 1983 on a mission to iraq for
Reagan, in 1988 Reagan and US Army war college claimed Iran gassed the
Kurds, not Iraq, but i notice that none of you pathetic “left” cocksuckers even rebut
WTH’s CIA joke, like that’s so implausible. pathetic bunk of assholes.
Thanks, Jack, for dealing with my light work. I think I’m going to have you
finish up for me in the New Year.
The rest of the psychobabble comments by airheads like David et al are
not even worth responding to.
Now if we can just see Bush hang and the shitbag Zionist scum,
the “holohoax” fakers hang, that would be real justice.

Redhorse, I hadn’t thought of it that way but I guess I’m slumming
and I think my comments here have been articulate and coherent,
particularly judging from the off the wall I’ve received from half a
dozen fellow posters. I’m generally progressive but not Party Line
PC and the unpleasant issues I’ve brought here I have long thought
needing airing on the left and this is the only major board I know of,
left or right, that is fair to dissent. All the others censor with a vengeance.
I do admit I’ve fallen for the bait and responded with appropriate ad hominems,
something I normally disdain but you have been incredibly abusive.
I’m not complaining about, just noting it for the record.
Sorry that you take my dissent from you’re Afrocentric worldview
as evidence of racism. But that’s under your control, not mine.
By the way, I’m NOT from Virginia, apparently Hawaii Jack is but
I’m not.
Half a dozen pieces in Z, three co-authored with Nina and the others
book reviews by myself of Chomsky and Norm Solomon. One piece
for The Progressive with Nina. A couple of pieces in the East Bay Express,
a couple of pieces in the old National Guardian, a major
piece on Pacifica Radio in The Washington Post Sunday Outlook
Section and a dozen lengthy opinion pieces for The Anderson Valley
Advertiser where Cockburn writes. Only write avocationally and nothing
published since 2000. Nina and I did a private paper on First Gulf Massacre.
As usual, David, your research was inadequate.

Mike, There was nothing inadequate about my research because I got the results I was looking for. That result simply being an affirmation that you weren’t making it up. I enjoyed the pieces I did find, by the way, and thanks for sharing the rest of your publishing history.

You’re right that this is the only major board I know of, left or right, that is fair to dissent. I certainly wouldn’t consider it slumming. In These Times is very fair and a better forum for discussion with a variety of interesting people I have yet to find.

Mike, I’m glad that you’re back.

David and Whisperer…

I love it!  Great imaginative way to end the year.

As one who is addicted to quotations let me add, “Imagination is more important than knowledge.” — Albert Einstein

jack’s back ! time for the a-holes here to dive back into their ratholes.
wth, einstein ripped off aristotle who in the poetics wrote that fiction was of more importance than history because merely described what happened while fiction described what ought to happen. yeah…....
quite a few of you here obviously confuse the two.

btw, redhorse, wth is NOT a skeptic in regard to US atrocities and US invented atrocities of others, he buys the whole package without a scintilla of critical thought. whoever brainwashes him first wins.

In classic doublespeak the “Uniter” could only have ruled by being a Divider. The War profiteers can’t make money without war, the haters coudn’t stand the light of day without spreading hate, common sense will always take a back seat to the emotion of fear and fear can only come in confusion. Confusion, of course, isn’t possible without lies and we all know hate is born in fear.

The cynical who rule do so by encouraging the tribalism that was born in the patriarchal, mysogenist beginnings of the three major religions (formed by cavemen, often hallucinating) designed to control the hoi polloi and suppressing the, much earlier, deification of female idols (by far the oldest icons discovered by archaeologists)  which were truly simply symbols of a collective consciousness knowing, instinctively. that the earth itself is our mother. It is from her we rose and it is of her we depend. Modern man, successfully divorced from this common sense by the white noise of modern technology and the cloistered, hermetically sealed synthetic environments which have become more important than nature (seen as a dirty place good for only raping and reaping its resources to make more shiney, noisy gadgets). Much easier to isolate tribes from each other when the outdoors become unbearable due to global warming and pollution. Much shorter compassion in an insanely overcrowded world.

America’s violent birth, its annihilation of one race, its enslavement of another, for that matter, the lessons we should have learned from Vietnam, have never enjoyed a national dialogue and so are gaping wounds exploited by the self-serving covetous (in total contrast to the lip service to the ten commandments they claim to espouse). It is to these evil, short sighted bastard’s advantage to encourage hyphanted citizenry (Afro-American, Native-American, Jewish-American etc.) instead of the spirit of democracy which, ideally, banishes such divisions (“United we stand…..”). It’s gotten so bad that many Blacks are now as virulently racist as their couterparts (look to the sanctioned racism in our prison sytems for a pure example of divide and conquer. The “gang” situation could long ago been diffused).

Now we see the introduction of illegals from hispanic cultures brought in to stir things to new hieghts. That such an insane invasion is allowed at a time when our border security, by a party who claims to be “conservative” (and is racist) , should be air tight, only proves that as long as the “Have-nots” are fighting over crumbs, the “Haves” will continue to rule. The screeds of “liberals” and “progressives,” from the safety of suburban cul-de-sacs, shows them buying into the divisiveness of the Whig-Ro(v)es. When all else fails, squeeze a “gay” something onto the ballot, rally the tax freed representatives of orgainized religion to rail from the podium (fix some voting machines) and amuse, through the controlled media (with such worthy talents as Donald Trump or Paris Hilton, both of the “Haves” and so worthy of adoration), and sit back and pick a side in the “game” that none will win.

Can I Get A AAAAMMEEEENN….!!!!!!!!!!!.  Amen…..for the brother….Angry_Since_1963…...

Give it up for the brother…A_S_1963….....Amen….!!!!!!!!!!

Say it again Angry_Since_1963…..say it again….

(.........APPLAUSE…APPLAUSE…APPLAUSE….as Angry_Since_1963 steps back and decends from the rostrum…......)

Amen!

clap clap clap

Angry since 1963, eh? That’s a long time to be angry. I wasn’t even born yet.

Redhorse, David, Angry’63,

The older I get, the more often I am angry — no wonder they are called “Elder Hostels” :-)

For anyone interested, one of my favorite authors, P.J. O’Rourke was interviewed on C-SPAN 2 this past weekend. Funny man, but thoughtful. The program (3 hours) will repeat Sat. 1-14-07 at 8 a.m. EST.

Since I agreed with his definition I guess I am a Libertarian.

Says P.J. — “Libertarians believe in Liberty and Responsibility. Libertarianism provides measures of how well a government promotes liberty or how it impinges on it. A Libertarian candidate would literally stand on a stump and shout, ‘I can do less for you. In fact, I can do nothing for you.  You’ve got to do it for yourself.  It’s going to be very hard to get elected with that platform.’”

Q: Do those who are better off have a obligation to help the less well off?
A: Yes!  However, the less well off do not have a right to have it given to them. He explains his role for government in more detail on this.

One of the things I like best about him is he will admit when he feels unqualified to have an meaningful opinion on any given topic.

O’Rourke is a pro-war consevative, NOT a libertarian and yes, he has ventured opinions on subjects he knows not of, what the hell. Angry, another verbiage laden poor writer here ! Mistakes mud for depth. Practice BREVITY, you untalened nonwriters ! B R E V I T Y.

I see a much simpler explanation for voluptuous clay figurines. Nowadays we have the Internet.

Hi whiny Jack,

And you might try abstinence.

what the hell, my women won’t let me….......................

Barky, excellent point.

Jack, I think Whattheheck’s joke might have gone over your head.
You suggested some might practise brevity in regards to what they write whereas he is suggesting you practise abstinence.

Whattheheck, good one!

David, bad one ! My estimation of you’re IQ level just went down thirty points.
What the hell, Your Mama had a botched abortion….........look in the mirror.

David,

Of course you were right.

I guess to Hawaii I should have just said, “Quiet.”

For brevity, clarity trumps levity with some.

what the hell, you should just abstain from posting at all. And if you really want to do the world a favor, abstain from breathing too.

Hi whiny Jack,

Whattheheck, I thought that was clever too. Ahh ... levity!

David, bad one ! My estimation of you’re [sic] IQ level just went down thirty points.

Jack, my estimation of your sense of humour has fallen as well.

prepHJerkoff…..damn son….you sound like some whiny ten year old…

.” abstain from breathing too….”

For a so-called free-lancer…you should be better at this…...

Redhorse is very disappointed in your performance on this ITT thread…......very disappointed indeed…..

Additionally….what kind of man….makes insidious endorsements about his wife and their sex life , on a website with people he has never met…..?

Tacky….ol’ boy….very tacky , yu talk about your wife , like she’s just another common piece of ass…

Would guess though , that it is somewhat difficult for yu , being that yu are an extremely….“Common Ass “....... yourself.

true Hardesty….a ’ toon to the end…..

I never mentioned my wife because I’m not married, Redhorse.
And when did I claim to be a freelancer ?
I don’t who “Hardesty” is but it seems part of your illiterate attempt
at humor.
David, you are a big disappointment, boy. So sad.

David, just kicked you’re stinky butt over the Caracas thread, you had posted under “Eric Blair” there yeserday. Cute but no cigar. Tore oily Ollie Kamm a new arsehole too.

you had posted under “Eric Blair” there yeserday. Cute but no cigar.

Jack, please clarify. Do you think I am Eric Blair? Or just mentioning the location of my post in response to Eric’s comment?

you are a big disappointment, boy. So sad.

I am sorry you are feeling so sad, Jack.
I am disappointed in you too, but it doesn’t make me sad.

I was disappointed, but very agreeably.—Macaulay

Weak effort HalfJacker….saw the same message with my name….You are quite the propagandizing monkey…...eeh….?

Frankly, I thought maybe you were Eric Blair but are you denying it ?
How could you be disappointed in me ? I’m practically the only here that tells the truth.
Redhorse, are you trying to pull the excrement out by hand again ?
Look, little bro, this can’t be doing either your mind or your anus much good….............but at least wash those stinky hands !

HalfJacker…..........You’ve been stealin’ my insults sense this argument between you and the Redhorse started…....Even the ” bowel ” jokes…..

This Horse has been defining the terms of this conflict….all you do is shuffle behind…pushing your walker….

As stated in past posts….not only by myself , but others….your child-like pretentiousness is boringly droll….BM ? HJ ? MH ? who ever you are….? .

Redhorse, I trys to be doin’ dem ebonics rap just like yo’ hineypos bro !
You shoe size bein’ the same as yo’ IQ—-13. yo’ lucky number.
WHOOOOOOOOOOOWEEEEEEEEEE…..........

Frankly, I thought maybe you were Eric Blair but are you denying it ?

Jack, Yes. I deny it. I did not make a post under the name of Eric Blair. Eric,  you will notice by the little flag icons, is from the USA and I am from Canada. I am a computer illiterate and would not be able to make my posts appear to come from the USA even if I wanted to.

And I stopped playing with sock puppets when I was 5 years old.

How could you be disappointed in me ? I’m practically the only here that tells the truth.

I might ask the same. Exactly how did I disappoint you? Apparently by enjoying Whattheheck’s wit. You have disappointed me by not being able to do the same.

If I can offer some advice, Jack, in all sincerity, the truth you have to impart to people would be better received if it was offered with some humilty and respect rather than pride and disrespect.

....HalfJacker….again with the dimwitted redneck satire…..?

Nothing new….?

At least qoute some Ayn Rand…......HalfJacker.

What the hell are sock puppets ? I recall reading some babble from LB on this but mercifully forgot the specifics. Ok, thanks for the clarification on “Blair.” 
Well, your selective pleading here is interesting after what I’ve put up with from Shitcago Cabbie, Major, Redhorse, etc.  Let’s move on. Maybe some new voices will pop up here.
Learn how to spell “quote” horse.

Redhorse, David, and “Mrs. Calabash — wherever you are…”
(If you get that you must be close to my age.)

A slight change of topic back a bit closer to the article. I read in the latest Kiplinger Newsletter that as of the January 21, the Consumer Price Index will be a more precisely stated — in three decimal places.

This will enable us to get poorly collected, but very encouragingly distorted data than ever before. Thus the “experts” from the Fed on down to Jim Cramer will be assured of full employment, the media will find it easier to fill 24/7 programming and the fairytale (Goldilocks) economy may stay on life support a bit longer.

Who says the government doesn’t create jobs?

Jimmy Durante ! Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are ! WTH, govt creates nothing, all govt money comes from the private sector and govt jobs are created at the expense of the private sector. But don’t expect the hardcore Comsymps here like the horse, the so-called beauty, Davey and the others to get that. Chomsky told them that economic laws are a capitalist plot and we should all be shouting Viva Chavez ! Viva Fidel ! Viva Pol Pot ! Viva Uncle Joe ! Viva Mao ! Viva Ho ! Viva Allende ! Viva Sukarno ! Fill in the next Commie dirtbag of your choice. Liberalism leads to socialism leads to communism. Hence libs are usually hardcore Comsymps. Read Atlas Shrugged for the answers to ALL our problems.
LBJ said in a summer 1972 interview that the Communist Conspiracy controls FedGov, the major media, and so forth. Still true. So sad.