White Progressives Don’t Get It

Please stop this self-serving anti-white racist identity politics.
Who do you think you’re kidding ? Every GOP victory since 1966
can be traced to the whole issue of black crime and sociopathology.
You don’t think the voters are falling for the pseudo-Ayn Rand economics of the Right, do you ?  Excuse me but the so-called
people of color self-professed spokespersons are the ones who
are obsessed by race.

“In this narrative, identity politics is to blame for the inability of progressives to stick together, thereby making room for the rise of conservatism. Michaels says as much, barely acknowledging any other factors, including the right wing’s brilliant (and highly racialized) campaigns to establish its ideas in the American consciousness.”

Does the author realize that she is disproving her own argument? Yes, the right has used race to split the working class - “the right wing’s brilliant (and highly racialized) campaigns”. and if progressives allow the right to control the battlefield - race - then we lose. The right is using those that are obsessed with identity politics as foils for their agenda.

The author makes a lot of sweeping statements and then never backs them up with any sort of evidence. her one attempt at evidence is a bill from the mid ‘90s targeting immigrants. Maybe the author should look at how the black community views immigrants before pointing her finger at whites.

Rinku Sen is Karl Roves wet dream. with enough people like her around it will remain pleasantly simple for the Rove’s of the worls to continue stealing from the poor to give to the rich.

keep up the good work Rinku!

Maybe Rinku is Redhorse in drag (just kidding but couldn’t resist).

It would be OK , with the Horse...Ms.Sen knows of where and what she speaks....My feeling is....that.yu never will get it BM...for the first time in your little pity life , yu see yourself as being “ left out “...in a BIG WAY.....Yu just can’t handle it...BM , your emotions have got yu all in a knot.....

Siskiyouz....the only reason the neo-cons play that game , is because they know it works...If you don’t respond appropiately...thats the same as saying...that these racial stigmatism are correct,,,,This is why yu need to confront the reality...not act like the problem doesn’t exit....If Bill Clinton made one statement that was right on point , but then , did nothing about it for the whole 8 years in office...It was that the issue of race was the number one problem that Amerika needed to deal with...and that by tackling that reality..that Amerika would be able to see it’s way clear of many other pressing difficulties...Now slick Willie don’t hand out to many freebies, so one would be wise to take heed......true.

this is so black and white - you can have a movement for equality while respecting and trying to empower minorities/identities.

Look at health care in Canada - there is still racism but the fact is that all people have health care. This gives more resources to work with for those minorities, it helps them fight for there rights.

Basically economic equality should be the main goal, but we should also work to support other movements as well.  As a poor, black, gay man what he wants most, he might tell you health care.

One of the reasons that the Left is so concerned with indentity politics is because capitalism is racially structured both in terms of income stratification and occupationally. Identity groups have formed the basis of economic structuring in many places throughout history. The integration of identity groups into various societies has often been the fulfillment of some economic roll or another. Usually it is cheap labor but sometimes it’s other things. This is why identity politics survives. Addressing identity is an important part of addressing social stigma and inequality.

Slick Willie wanted to solve the race problem by adding FIFTY new categories of capital crimes which he did to the 1994 Crime Bill.
Oh, I forgot, he threw in Midnight Basketball......................
Redhorse, if idiots like you stopped your mindless black racism 99%
of the “problem” would go away.
Socialism has no better record on race issues. Cuba was always an
integrated society, under Batista as well as Castro. When Cleaver
went down preaching that black power rap Fidel put his sorry rapist
ass in the sugar cane fields.
Viva Fidel !

I am not saying to put all our eggs in the IP basket. I just realize a lot of social problems still break down statistically by race in this and many other societies.

Ok, Chicago, a reasonable point.

Sure there is a racial problem and it cuts both ways.

I doubt there are any “Universal solutions.” All laws can do is try to prevent favoritism or outright discrimination. Notice I said “try.” The Civil Rights Act of 1964 forbids discrimination, but obviously hasn’t stopped it. In fact in some ways government attempted to to deal with since then have arguably made things worse. Catering to any classification — race, gender, age economic — offends or dicriminates against others, which at best perpetuates the problem and at worst magnifies it.

Let’s not let ourselves be conned by some political candidate for or against any single group. If it is good for one it is good for all.

Perhaps the only way to really deal with it is one on one.  When you get to know a person generalities can disappear.

I recently rewatched a tape of a History Channel program, “They drew fire” the personal recollections of several WWll combat artists.

One man who served in WWll, Korea, Vietnam and the Gulf War in 1991 commented, “There is something beautiful about war. I know this sounds really strange, but there is. I first noticed it going over the side and down the rope ladder. When you are with people and death is all around you everyone becomes polite and thoughtful. It doesn’t matter what color or where you are from. Then when you get back to “normal situations” people revert to caring about the inconsequential things and the ugliness reappears.”

We all need to realize and remember that we are all “in the same boat” and for only a short time. Individual consideration and respect are more important the most of those things which divide us.

WTH.....Well said.....that last paragraph hit the nail on the head....Been taking those long walks...playing with the grandkids.......eah..

BM...I got yu coming and going , yu don’t know what to do now , do you....Yu sound like you’re foaming at the mouth...calm down...listen to what WTH , has to say....

99% of the problem...damn , don’t yu think that is a bit of an overstatement…

BM...calm....silence....breath.....slow down guy........

This whole discussion is getting ridiculous as they often do.

Redhorse, I do not want to hear any more macaca coming from your mouth. Ok, 97% of the problem. Happy, now ?
Chicago, the only ridiculous notes are coming from Redhorse, he’s the
dude who posts as Scorp on the other posts.
WTH, pretty mush mental mush.
Nothing beautiful about war, it is legalized mass murder.
Damn boy I’m gonna cancel your subscription to the Weekly Standard, WTH, you come up with the damndest nonsense but I think your a nice guy at heart. Unlike Redhorse, he’d mug you in an alley in a flash, well,
he’d try, then I whip it out and he’s history. I’m talking of the 357 here though the other one is almost as big.
When know LOTS of people like Redhorse you recognize the absolute
truth of generalities and stereotypes.

getting ridiculous

No shit, eh !?

Some people might reconsider some of the fertilizer they are spreading, try thinking before they put their foot in their mouth (after all ... it’s covered in shit) and make use of the edit function.

WTH....one of the most touching moments in a situation such as yu discribed , is when former combatants meet after a conflict and become friends...neither can remember or explain why or what the war was about or why they wished to kill another human ; other than the fact that their respective Gov’ts told them too...fear of death...or a need to lookout for comrades....nobody wanted to be there....Even the gunho types...give into, surrender to the moment...They see that the so-called enemy , is just like them....has the same needs , hopes and fears...There is an old reggea tune that goes...”.The man in the military , don’t want to fight no war.....but the bankers want a war , the politicians want a war, but sargent-major Williams don’t want to fight no war...............”

Redhorse, Blondmike,

“Been taking those long walks...playing with the grandkids.......eah.. “
LOL — (Sorry, no grandkids.) Just able to identify with the WWll guy’s insight from my own experiences. BM just doesn’t seem to get it.

“Nothing beautiful about war, it is legalized mass murder.
Damn boy I’m gonna cancel your subscription to the Weekly Standard, WTH, you come up with the damndest nonsense but I think your a nice guy at heart. Unlike Redhorse, he’d mug you in an alley in a flash,”

OK, one more try, BM… The point isn’t that the war was beautiful, not that the killing was beautiful — the point he made is how when people are confronted with the basic realities of life (and death) the trivial issues (someone’s race, nationality or whatever) were set aside and people were civil and caring toward each other.

Have you ever been mugged? Are you generalizing again? Are you getting some kind of buzz by insulting him? Does it make you feel superior in some way? Would you be as rude if we were all face to face?

Obviously ou don’t need to answer to me. You seem to be an unhappy guy. Ask yourself — for your own sake and try to be honest about it.

The grandson of a good friend and long time client committed suicide recently. He was half white/half black, a very intelligent young man (31 or 32), a talented artist and teacher in a tough part of NY city and had been undergoing treatment for clinical depression.

I don’t know his reasons for ending his life, but it wasn’t due to any lack of loving care at home. He will be missed forever by a lot of people. I have to wonder if it was what he saw and heard associated with his work.

I would hate to have been a contributor to whatever the cause.

I’m sorry, but if the writer had read anything else by Walter Benn Michaels, she wouldn’t call him a progressive.  I suggest, Ms. Sen, that you take a look at his previous book, Our America.

WTH, my wife and I have been victims of serious crimes by dastardly
black criminals in Oakland as I related at length to the racist Redhorse.
I’m “unhappy” because I disagree with Bush’s mass murder in Iraq ?????????????
Stop the psychobabble and move on.

Blondemike,

Sorry about your experience. We have also been victims of crime. Burglary at home and at my office neighborhood — shootings (1) armed robberies (4) car jacking (1). I carried a gun to work and had one mounted under my drawing board.  All of these were committed by blacks.

Not violent, but devastating psychologically and economically to a large number of people, some of the biggest recent crimes in the U.S. have been the work of white guys in white collars. (think Lay, Skilling, Enron) Believe it or not, I am white, but had nothing to do with those.

People should be evaluated individually and not held accountable for the actions of others.

As for “mass murder in Iraq” — broad sweeping statements of opinion as fact are in direct opposition to our claim of innocent until proven guilty. Since you refuse to read anything you already have decided might shake your conclusions I have nothing to add.

Lancet, the esteemed UK medical journal, has documented at least 700,000 civilian deaths caused by the US invasion of Iraq in 2003.
Madeline Albright ADMITTED half a million Iraqi deaths caused by US
sanctions in spring, 1996 interview with Lesley Stahl of CBS News
for 60 minutes. There is ample UN and NGO documentation for the
figures that I gave. Just refute them or STFU little holocaust denier
WTH. Even conservatives like Buchanan now accept these figures.
The USA HAS LONG SINCE BEEN PROVEN GUILTY IN IRAQ AND
MANY OTHER PLACES SINCE WW2. GLAD TO SUPPLY REFS FOR
YOU.
You’re a rightwing weasel.

BM,

Got the runs again, I see.

If you are wiling to accept anything from MADelaine Halfbright as proof no wonder you are so confused. Please accept my condolences and best wishes for a speedy recovery.

As for your other sources of “proof” — UK medical journal?, Lesley Stahl?, 60 Minutes?, the UN?, Hey, you left out the Dog whisperer!

Whatever the tally of deaths to attribute them all to the U.S. shows only how little discrimination you can muster in your small mind. (I guess your “discrimination” is exhausted in its excessive negative racial application.) Did you know Kofi Annan is black? (Is he somehow exempt from your distrust on the color chart?)

Your logic appears to jump to, “It is our fault for being there.” Never mind that most deaths are from IEDs, suicide bombers and beheadings courtesy of the Muslim extremists of only the “purest” of motives. You label our guys as murderers — I guess that’s in line with your own trigger-happy language expressed here?

WTH, Albright was RELUCTANTLY confirming a report by the UN and
other NGOs that Lesley Stahl brought up in an interview. This is what
lawyers call admission against interest.
Most deaths are caused by US firepower, I was kind enough to give
you responsible sources.
Your response is ad hominem attacks and an utter failure to either
present a coherent response or tell me why the widely disparate
references that I gave are not reliable.
This is why debating with a low IQ, rightwing pinhead like yourself
is a waste of time. There were no suicide bombers or Muslim extremists running around in Iraq until our invasion. Hussein was
not religious and kept a tight lid on them. Bush Asshole removed
the lid.

Blondmike,

Yes, of course, Saddam did a wonderful job.  Riiigghht

------

“Stop the psychobabble...You’re a rightwing weasel. ...a low IQ, rightwing pinhead like yourself”

You exhibit a broad vocabulary. I’m impressed.

I think this is where I’m supposed to say something like, “Oh, yeah? My dad can lick your dad.”

If you saw it on TV — it MUST be true.

Information is a poor substitute for thought.

Information is a poor substitute for thought ????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Again, you can’t respond to any refs so you’re reduced to ad hominems.
No, you’re supposed to have some reasoned semblance of a counter-argument.
The comment on Hussein is a nonsequitur since I didn’t say he was
doing a wonderful job.  Bush has made a wonderful mess however and
now Al Queda is active in Iraq.
Be gone.

Wow.....I generally agree with BM....but have more respect for WTH....whats a afrikan-centered so-called racist to do..................WTH the killing was intiated by the US..additionally one would also assume that Israeli intelligence is in on the genocide.....A civil war is just what the Bushy Boys want..now the US has no choice but to stay the freakin’ course.....MONEY...MONEY...MONEY....Who shot Abdul or who is shooting Abdul...is of little import......................true.

Redhorse, glad we agree here. WTH has been sounding more like Scorp lately, of course, not as bad, no one is but he has been making
the stupidest rightwing pro-war noises I’ve heard in a while.
Your right of course, the ruling class here needs an enemy and if they
don’t exist we create them.
One other thing we may agree on, the anti-Arab racism in the West is really out of sight. The main form of anti-semitism now is anti-Arab racism, more so than anti-Jewish sentiment.

Mike, I am saddened to point out that you are guilty of ad hominem attacks.

For example You’re a rightwing weasel. and low IQ, rightwing pinhead like yourself ...

So I will borrow one of your favorites ... pot, scrub thyself.

Ad hominem abusive or ad personam
Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting one’s opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but damning character flaws or actions.
ad hominem

And maybe I am guilty now too for pointing it out. Oh well.

But it is very nice to see Mike and Redhorse getting along.
Now play nice with Whattheheck.

Well , what is interesting is that BM can see the “ad hominen"racist attacks on Arabs....he can understand the struggle poor Venezuelans engage in with their leader, Pres. Hugo Chavez....But shows little if any understanding or acumen , for issues that confront the Afrikan Amerikan community.....No critical analysis of the larger super-structure of racism, that has become acceptable sense Ron Reagans era , the medias role in portraying persons of Afrikan hertitage as stigmatically criminalized....This is what is troubling to Redhorse ,concerning the nature and character of the BM......But David , no “ ad hominen” or “ argumentum ad personam “ attacks from this Horse.......For now at least......

Now WTH is a skeptic by experience...one would gather that in order to truely convince WTH...he would need to see the body count administered in person...Maybe if Ross Perot went over to Iraq and supervized the casualty reports, it would convince WTH( satirical humor , not argumentum ad personam)...WTH, the nature of war is such, that innocent people are slaughtered....sense the US illegally invaded this country ( Iraq ) , the ugly reality is that the genocide belongs on the doorstep of the Bush regime...the US Gov’t....and Amerika.....

Redhorse, David (glad you’re back) and, yes, Blondemike too…

“WTH the killing was initiated by the US..additionally one would also assume that Israeli intelligence is in on the genocide.”

My argument generally is that too many people are assuming too much too often.

As for Abdul, who shot him and why probably makes no difference to him.  But assumptions of who and why make a big difference to everyone else.

BM had a list which included TV reporters, a Brit medical journal, a former secretary of state, all of which may (?) have ulterior motives, an agenda, misinformation, data picked up from blogs or whatever — at any rate undocumented “evidence” which may or may not be true.

Then, even if true (or only partly true) there is the issue of motive.

Sorry, Redhorse, even if I could go there and take that body count in person, I would still want more before passing judgment on anything this important. (BTW I voted for Perot based on his view of NAFTA.)

Yes innocent people die along with the guilty. Even those “insurgents” may be doing what they are doing largely based on their assumptions and should not be lumped together as to motive. Likewise, just as I don’t believe it is intellectually honest to assume the US has an established policy of conquest by perpetual war, I don’t believe it to be fair to assume all Arabs, all Muslims or all Jews are responsible for the Middle East mess.

Using generalizations is the easy way to decide things and GENERALLY the wrong way.

A note to Mike:
Look just because we disagree on an issue doesn’t mean we can’t get along. This discussion is beginning to sound like a political champaign. (Neither of us would stand a chance — too many comments to come back and haunt us:-)
There are no winners or losers based on what we say here — we are all victims in a sense— of the decisions being made for whatever reasons that are beyond our control whichever of us may be (most) right.

WTH, I don’t want to keep repeating myself but the evidence of Bush’s lying and US aggression is overwhelming. I am not running for office
but there’s nothing substantive I’d change in my comments.
The US policy since WW2 has been perpetual war for perpetual peace,
see the massive 1952 book of this same title edited by Harry Elmer Barnes. And it hasn’t gotten better since then, only much worse !
Since no one claimed that all Arabs or Muslims are wonderful you’re
either flogging a dead horse or making a nonsequitur. Nor is anyone
claiming that ALL Jews are responsible for Israel’s crimes. My wife
doesn’t support Israel though way too many American Jews as well
as the Christian Zionist nuts do.
Redhorse, I agree a bit with you about the increase in racism since Reagan. Clarence Thomas dismantled the EEOC to the point where
it is ineffective in fighting job discrimination by race and age. There
is more gender favoritism to women still, not only white women.
David, an ad hominem argument is one that is used in place of any
supporting arguments, I gave supporting arguments. I did harshly characterize WTH after making the same arguments many times over
without any counterarguments from him but only psychobabble and
nonsequiturs as to how could believe a former Secretary of State when
she acknowledged a major US crime, sanctions which ultimately killed
two million Iraqis.
WTH seems to think the facts here don’t exist and that if we REALLY
knew what was going on we’d all support the great minds like Bush
and Cheney who got us into this disaster. BULL !
Under international law the insurgents are not guilty because they are
fighting a foreign occupation of their country. We are not in Iraq to do
social work, we are not in Iraq to create democracy for a 5,000 year
old civilization that doesn’t want our dubious brand of “democracy”
and cowboy capitalism. We ARE in Iraq to do Israel’s dirty work
and that even much more than the oil. If we go into Iran that will be
to do Israel’s dirty work again. Idiots on the left like Chomsky who
do not recognize AIPAC’s role are doing us a disservice. They can
get 95 Senators and 400 Representatives to sign ANY petition for
Israel at ANY time. The NRA and AARP in their wildest wet dreams
do not possess this sort of power. I believe it’s an insane combo
of holocaust guilt combined with anti-Arab racism. Although Halliburton
is making big bucks there, I do not believe it is primarily the oil companies running the show here but Israel and the neocons here.
It’s not PC to bring this up because it’s the great unmentionable.
As James Baldwin once wrote it’s like a body buried under the table
and everyone tries to ignore it but after a while no can really talk
about anything else.

Redhorse,
Yes, there is none so blind as he who will not see but I don’t think Mike is blind, maybe just a little nearsighted (satirical humor, not argumentum ad personam). As for ad hominem and insults I can safely say we are all guilty of it to some degree at one time or another.

Whattheheck,
Thank you. Glad to be back. I went on a walkabout of the web for awhile but eventually came back to these old stomping grounds. Old friends are the best. Even if we disagree.

Mike,
There are subtypes of ad hominem for which I provided a definition and source to support my assertion and without supporting evidence for your assertion that WTH is a weasel and has a low IQ I can’t help but characterize it as an insult and therefore an argumentum ad personam. I can appreciate your frustration but can’t help but see that it is a pot calling the kettle black situation.

David, it would only be the pot calling the kettle black if my arguments
had begun to approach his in both historical inaccurracy and flippant
disregard of the facts as presented combined with a total failure to
even attempt a rebuttal. If you think his responses are in way adequate
to address the points I made then the epithets I applied to him go for you too.

Left out “any” before “way” in sentence four above but I trust my point
was stil clear. My remarks are aimed at WTH and David’s pathetic
attempt to go to his defense.

If you think his responses are in way adequate to address the points I made ...

Adequate, not at all. But you still insulted him and that is an ad hominem by definition. 

Look Mike, I have gone round and round on showing respect for one another in these discussions with many people, Redhorse included, and once having made my point I am more than willing to let it go and let you carve each other up with words but I fail to see how insulting weasels and making derogatory comments about someone’s IQ facilitate a meaningful and productive discussion.

I was not defending WTH from your rebuttal (I agree with your rebuttal) but from your insults.

Don’t you think it best that people stick to rebutting and forgo the insulting?

OK....David...I appreciate your point...and concerning you , I do refrain from the personal attacks...Generally though , I have no problem with expressing discontent with viewpoints that are egregious...in a manner that is argumentum ad personam.....

Now BM is like night and day...all of a sudden he sounds reasonable...this I do not trust.....

WTH...I have heard this argument from you in the past...Personally , I do not understand your skepticisms , this scenario of war profiteering is not new....Bush is just the latest , not the greatest...( personally I think his daddy is a much better hustler than the son...)Bush 41 was much smoother in the Iran / Contra deal ; Manuel Noriega...CIA drug smuggling setup....getting Saddam Hussien to hang himself by telling him to invade Kuwiat...and then kicking him out...Bush 43 is a klutz....

Mike, In the interests of peace, may I suggest we try to get along?

When I initially met you at this thread, Fear and Voting in the USA, at Posted by David in Canada on Nov 8, 2006 at 3:48 PM, we seemed to get along so well.

I think we have much in common and although we seem to disagree about a few things such as at this thread,The Godless Fundamentalist, I would like it if we could agree to disagree without resorting to taunts and insults.

“Tis the season; Peace on earth to men of good will.

I do have good will towards you so can’t we have peace too?

Merry Christmas, Mike. Best wishes for the New Year.

David...I appreciate your point...and concerning you , I do refrain from the personal attacks...

Redhorse, Thanks, I appreciate your consideration, hopefully I am not guilty of an egregious viewpoint and thereby worthy of a personal attack. I can appreciate your point as well, sometimes these discussions are very frustrating. We can’t see each other smile when we do use some satirical humour without resorting to smiley faces =) and somehow the lack of personal face to face contact tends to make all of us more susceptible to using personal attacks. A conundrum.

It’s just that I feel that sometimes the message gets lost in the viciousness of the argumentum ad personam. You remember Rabbit of course, and while he has gone on to other fields and I went with him for a time, now I have returned to this field again. I like it here. Rabbit and I went round and round sometimes too but he is always my friend. He could be especially vicious at times ... never to me but often to others and I made the same points to him. I told him his message needs to be heard but sometimes the message wasn’t even heard for all the taunts and insults that went with it. He considered my words of advice and while he remained Rabbit he was a little more tame.

Anyways, Redhorse, while I may remind you, and others, to be respectful , or at least try to be, you are free to conduct yourself as you see fit. You may fire when ready, Gridley.

Peace and good will to you, Redhorse.

Have a Merry (agnostic) Christmas and all the best in the New Year.

Whattheheck, Peace and good will to you too.
We have had our disagreements in the past and will probably have more in the future.
Nonetheless I want to wish you a Merry Christmas (agnostic too if memory serves me correctly) and all the best in the New Year.

David, again it’s only ad hominem if used in LIEU of an argument.
It’s not against the rules of logic to call an SOB an SOB.
By your daft reasoning anyone who attacks anyone is guilty of an
ad hominem but since we are debating with real people, not ghosts,
it’s legitimate to characterize them, the only issue being is the characterization accurate or not. I will defend its accuracy.
But we are not enemies and Season’s Best to you too.
RH, Nina Wax and I wrote a lengthy piece for Z Magazine in April,
1990 on Bush Sr, John Hull, North and the whole Contra drugs
for guns network. You are absolutely right in all of your comments
about Bush Sr above & Noreiga, Hussein, etc.
Season’s Best to you, Redhorse. I love Christmas and I think it
originated as a pagan holiday in Scandinavia.

Thanks Mike. I am glad we are not enemies.

As for the defintion of ad hominem, my reasoning is not daft as you so charitably characterize it. My reasoning is based on the definition I provided, see the link several posts up, which clearly states ad hominem can also involve pointing out factual but damning character flaws or actions.

Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting one’s opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but damning character flaws or actions. The reason that this is fallacious is that - usually, anyway - insults and even damaging facts simply do not undermine what logical support there might be for one’s opponent’s arguments or assertions; argumentum ad personam short-circuits these potential arguments from logic in favor of a direct attack on the opponent’s authority.

So while some types of ad hominem may be used in LIEU of an argument it can also include a straight up insult, even a factual one.

And even if you don’t agree with this definition of ad hominem the fact remains that your insults to WTH were unnecessary and did not contibute in any meaningful way to the discussion except to turn it into a flame war.

As for Christmas, I agree that it is a traditional holiday of pagan origin, co-opted by Chritianity, for better or worse (one of my many heresies). Many of the pagans who converted simply wanted to bring their traditions with them to their new religion and the priests, eager for converts by any means, converted the pagan tradition as well. My Oma (grandmother) won’t have anything to do with Christmas, because of the pagan origin, but when she came to this country after WWII she was shocked to see women wearing pants and swore she would never dress like a man, yet these days, many years later, she does wear pants.

Give Christmas another millenium or two and we will hardly recognize it.

My remarks to WTH were necessary and justified. At that point I was reading him the riot act after spending way too much time trying to reason with him. I already contributed what was necessary to the debate such as it was. The unsourced definition above is convoluted.
It reads like too many authors on this board who confuse verbiage with profundity.  I’ll make my own decisions as to how to react, thank you.
You might concentrate on yourself and the virtue of conciseness.
Excuse me but why I would begin to care what Christmas would be
like in a millenium ??????????
I enjoy it now and that’s all that matters.

Mike, if you felt it was necessary that’s fine. As I previously mentioned to Redhorse you are free to conduct yourself as you see fit and the same goes for you. Carry on but please consider my advice to try to be respectful as much as is possible. It’s worth the effort.

You might concentrate on yourself and the virtue of conciseness ...

Please elaborate. I am open to criticism, constructive or otherwise.

Excuse me but why I would begin to care what Christmas would be
like in a millenium ??????????

Just an observation as you mentioned it’s pagan origins from milleniums ago.
You don’t have to care. Still a little prickly, eh Mike?

Speaking of conciseness ... were 10 question marks really necessary?
(a little joke)

Christmas ain’t nothin’ but a bunch of capitalistic profiteering baa humbug…
Work hard all year long...too go into dept till June of the next year( according to current spending documentation )...then lie to the poor, trusting little ones....telling them that your love and devotion take second seeding to some benevolently mythical fat , drunk ol’white dude....The first great lie...setting the young ones up for a life of confusing priorities, religious daftness , and economical slavery....

The one time of the year when working folks could send a message to the ruling class ( one could at least teach the young generation not to fall for the same foolishness )...Ah , the Wall Street propoganda...Yu know why they call it Wall street....because back in the day , during the slave trade....the finance district in New York was of course , the place where afrikan slaves were bought and sold....traded....many of the well to do patrons, found objection to the sight of all this human cargo being unloaded from the gallows of slaveships....So the solution was to built a wall....Wall Street

Blood in my eye............................................................................. ..........

Mike, Redhorse, JonB, David, Cabdriver,

I repeat: My argument generally is that too many people are assuming too much too often.

Mike says I don’t present adequate arguments to prove my points. (paraphrased) My whole point is expressed in the above sentence. I am NOT trying to disprove the points in the expressed opinions of any of you.

(For any who may have missed my early posts, a brief summary of where I stand on the war at the end of this message.)

With the 24/7 “news” we are overwhelmed with information of questionable accuracy and purpose. Internet/satellite communication allows nearly anyone to say nearly anything without serious documentation, people and governments are tried, judged and sentenced through the various media, non elected and unrepresentative agencies, and even individuals.

While I certainly admit to skepticism on nearly all issues, what I see and read here is cynicism in the extreme. This is evidenced regarding not only (but primarily)the U.S., but also people of other races, religions and nations… and often anyone who disagrees here.

All I am trying to accomplish is a bit of open mindedness and a willingness to investigate possible motives with a degree of healthy skepticism. (The kind any of us would want for charges against us.)
---------------------------------------------
It is nearly impossible to “prove” a negative, but easy to “prove” a positive.

Richards (Kramer) is on tape — audio and visual evidence of using the N word.

I have NO way of proving that I have never called people “niggers.” I can say I haven’t. People may testify they have not heard me say it to anyone. No one can say I have been with him all the time and vouch it to be true.

Even a positive proof is more illusive than ever. Technology makes false information easy to concoct and misinformation multiplies instantly.

I can do just about anything with a photo, but I get e-mails from friends, “Look at this amazing photo!”

Editing can be done in print, on the internet and on tapes.

Take a few words from my above statement and… “I have called people “niggers.” People may testify they have heard me say it.” Easy with tape and easier with type.

An author saw his most recent book advertised and critiqued on Amazon.com. There was even a live tally of sales — the problem was he had not written such a book.

I’ve read a report of an interview with an economist which was in fact a genuine interview which was purposely doctored anonymously and spread on the net.
--------------------------------

Best Wishes for a Merry Christmas & Happy New Year and Happy Hanukkah, Cabdriver— to you and your families.

--------------------------------

These are my beliefs (not proofs) concerning the (badly named) War on Terror.

1. I believe radical Muslims have been at war with us for some time. (I’ll not get into the “whys” or “justifications” for it.

2. I believe we are justified to try to destroy terrorist training camps anywhere if the local government does not eliminate them.

3. I was in favor of removing Saddam from power in 1991. (as we promised his Iraqi opposition)

4. I believe the size of the force employed in Iraq to be too small to establish security for the population. I think it would have been more appropriate to use a Special Ops force in 2003 aimed at doing what 1991 may have accomplished in conjunction with anti-Saddam Kurds and Shiites.

5. I believe WE (not just the U.S.) have an obligation to stop oppression wherever we have the capability to do so. Just as we as individuals are obligated to help an individual under duress. (12 yrs of U.N. foot dragging shows a lack of willingness — The Bosnia joint action shows a positive outcome.)

6. I believe the long term effect the current U.S. administration’s mishandling of this operation will prevent us from doing anything substantive in Darfur and other places which desperately need help.

They were ONLY over here because WE have been over there for generations propping up Israel’s dispossession of millions of Palestinian Arabs and backing rightwing Arab dictatorships in Kuwait,
Saudi Arabia and most of the Arab World including the murderous Shah
of Iran for a long time.
The terrorist training camps only came into existence in response to
US & Israeli State Terror against the Palestinians and other Arabs.
The USA is the leading terrorist state in the world, see Chomsky’s
Rogue State and William Blum’s Rogue States.
We have no influence over the Sudanese govt to stop Darfur but we do
over Israel which we fund 100% to stop its aggression and we could
have a settlement there today if the US & Israel wanted it. They don’t
and the policy is to drive out as many Palestinians out as possible.
Removing Saddam in 1991 was an insane policy in an unjustified attempt to keep Kuwait, which is part of Iraq, in the hands of a corrupt monarchy.
The casualties would have been far worse in 1991 because by 2003
Iraq was greatly weakened by the sanctions and the deaths of millions
from same. Powell & Bush Sr very wisely ignored Far Right jackasses
like you. His STUPID son didn’t, hence the present mess.
THE US IS NOT THE WORLD’S POLICEMAN AND WE DO NOT HAVE ANY OBLIGATION WHATSOEVER TO AID ANY OR ALL OPPRESSED
GROUPS. USUALLY THE USA IS SUPPORTING OPPRESSIVE STATES
FROM ZAIRE TO ISRAEL TO SINGAPORE TO PAKISTAN TO GUATEMALA TO INDONESIA TO SOUTH KOREA TO EL SALVADOR TO
YOU NAME IT.
The Bosnia action was not positive as that “moderate” Islamic state
has ethnically cleansed every Serb and Croat it could AND gave passports to Bin Laden & all top Al Queda aides. And this goes double
for the Clinton-Blair ethnic cleansing of the Serbs in Kosovo in response
to a “genocide” that wasn’t happening.
Your insane idea of MORE troops is exactly what is not needed.
Maybe you can work for the lunatic Manchurian Johnboy McCain.
David, look at your many posts to see what I mean when I write more
conciseness would be nice on your part.
WTH, enough of your crap to start the morning.

Blondie,

“WTH, enough of your crap to start the morning.”

I can see it has a laxative effect on you — your response is always the same ol’ shit.

I will no longer address you so, if you don’t like to think about anything just don’t read it.

Ta-ta.

That still doesn’t mean I won’t rebut your nonsense if it’s egregious.
I am not in a personal feud with you, only concerned about the issues here.

And your response is still the same old failure to rebut my “ same old
shit.”

BM, You’d make one hell of a diplomat.

“I am not in a personal feud with you, only concerned about the issues here.”

Oh?

“Far Right jackasses like you.”

“Your insane idea...”

Just the most recent insults. Sounds rather personal to me. Don’t you realize you have insulted nearly everyone who posts on this site?

It is probably just as well that we never meet face to face.

conciseness would be nice

Mike, Thanks for your advice. I will take it under consideration.
Clear, concise and (hopefully) correct are qualities I value and strive for.
And I always try to remember that conciseness and clarity, or lack of them, in no way take away from the correctness, or lack of it, of an argument.

Ok, David. And it’s not just you either.
Where is Canuckistan ?
WTH, I’m up for that face to face and you’re up for a serious beating I hear.

In case anyone has read down through all the bickering, back to Benn Michaels, or rather, diversity vs everything—maybe I am too forgiving, but I read his essay as mainly an urge to shift the question of inequality back a bit in the direction of economic inequality, not necessarily to discount the matter of race altogether, but maybe I’m putting my own filter over it.  Michaels says “A world where some of us don’t have enough money is a world where the differences between us present a problem: the need to get rid of inequality or to justify it… We like to talk about the differences we can appreciate [race], and we don’t like to talk about the ones we can’t [financial resources].” He’s generalizing, but even if I don’t agree with how black-and-white (forgive me) he paints it to prove a point, he nevertheless has a point.  It is ethically and pragmatically ridiculous, not to mention political suicide these days, to say that diversity is no longer an issue.  But why isn’t there more of an issue made of poverty and all the unfairness of privilege?  Here in Illinois, why has a citizenry and government accepted the practice of lavishing luxuries on schools of the northern and western suburbs while inner-city and downstate schools are literally falling apart?  If the problem is disparity in property tax revenue, does this really justify perpetuation of the class divide?  Come on.  Poverty is a human issue, and is a problem with solutions, even if they require moving beyond “appreciation.”

On a vaguely related subject: do colored progressives “get” how wrong it is to charge clearly innocent white men with the rape of a black (exotic dancer) women? The Duke case is a prime example of how race politics can lead to the horrible abuse of the legal system. It is amazing that the case has not been dropped, the DA fired and the boys issued a full apology by the state (and the exotic dancer should be charged with filing false reports as well).

The OJ trail also was a clear case of race politics gone amuck. . .

Or is this just “:pay back” for real and imagined wrongs?

Pathetic.

Your right, Wolf. But colored progressives and their self-hating white
apologists have dog doo for brains.

beatricity,

I cringe at the calls for “more diversity” or “economic equality” since it seems to me unity is more desirable. What we need economically is equality of opportunity. Then the money would be distributed according to quality and quantity of individual effort and production.

(This comment is not meant to exclude charity for those who CAN’T produce for themselves.)

While I see no reason to officially make English our national language, it is a no brainer that a single language is a unifying feature. I have a slight ability in a few languages, but never traveled out of the U.S. until over 50. Nearly everywhere I went in Europe someone spoke English quite well. There was an attempt at Interlingua several years ago which looked interesting, but seems to have been dropped.

Emphasis on diversity has split unions into small competing factions and lost them the clout they once had. Diversity as a goal rather than individual equality of rights and opportunities has artifitially distributed people with poor results. Sometimes what feels good at the time has long term negative effects.

My personal view is people do best who learn to do for themselves all that they possibly can. Our part is to try to give them the chance.

“Unity” of what ? Making sense of your bumbling wordsalads is no
easy matter, What The Hell.

Blondie asks,

“"Unity” of what ? Making sense of your bumbling wordsalads is no easy matter, What The Hell.”
-------------------------------------------

I can see English is not your native tongue so I’ll give you some clues…

1. What flag is that on your e-mail posting? (lower left, as in leftwinger)

2. U _ _ _ _ d S _ _ _ _ s

3. This country is NOT the Diverse States of America. It is the _________.
------------------------------------------

So, I guess all those dumb blonde jokes aren’t really jokes after all.

Don’t worry — there will be no tuition charge or fine for reading other people’s mail.

WTH.....everything yu said was right on point...I guess the juxtaposition of WTH vs a BM , has given I better perspective on your personal ideology…
Yu are looking at the problem from a sound base...but what beatricity is saying is very complete also...that diversity is the issue...points to the enormous amount of talented and intelligent young people that will still be excluded , because they, ( the childs/students particular learning perspective does not fit the established testing goals.)...which of course...( have been shown to be unreliable in truthfully measuring the real abilities of students ), diversity speaks to quality....equality speaks to opportunity...we need both...just like a loving home enviroment...points to the parents being not only able to support the childs physical needs...but also emotional....The child....needs both , a strong family , needs both...and strong communities need both....

What I see , as policy in Amerika...in general , doesn’t even come close...under any perspective yu want the use...Equality or Quality are in short supply...especially...especially....went dealing with the subject of public education...( interesting insight...a child can be systematically discriminated against in the public educational system , but can find relative equality and quality in the military...but thats another discussion...).....

Remember if these two variables equality and quality were not rare commodities...there would be no juxtaposition against the two...the argument aways being basically , that...quantity is an acceptable substitute for equality...and that quality was in direct relation to a euro-centric values system...this perspective in and of itself...can be good..if yu fit into that paradigm....but if yu don’t...then it can become problematic....The perspective should be one based in balance...clearly looking at what does work..a curriculm that is inclusive...that presents information in a manner were student and instructor can interact....thats how real learning takes place....It’s hard work and requires some amount of patience...but it ain’t rocket science...Although the end result being that maybe the numbers of more socially conciuos physics scholars..( instead of military recruits )...of diverse heritages...goes up over the next few decades......Not a bad trade off when yu look at the investment value.....

Wolf...I wrote a response to your post that did not go thru...but in brief...first..I do not know who these “colored progressives” are...but they did not charge those Duke students with anything...the white DA charged them with the crime of rape, this guy wanted to get reelected so he played the race card game the way white politicians have for decades...Only difference is that he for some reason only he can tell yu , thought he could win against affluent white folks...who had the resourses to fight the false charge....Obviously the women involved was emotionally or economically motivated, a competent investigation would have proved helpful...she does have servere credibility problems…

Secondly...how or what does any of that have to do with “ colored progressive “....? I don’t get your logic......You’re not trying to get your little bit of mileage out of this unfortunate situation are yu , that would be ethically duplicitous , wouldn’t it....hypocritical don’t yu think....? .Possibly appearing to be.. classified as a bigotedly disingenuous attempt to place blame for this whole ugly episode on the black community.......

Third , why is it so obvious now with the affluent white kids being victimized by the criminal justice system.. when it was , has been happening , and still is happening to poor black , hispanic...and native youth for decades......? Come now Wolf....are yu that naive,delusionally possesed by daftness....?....

Fourth...what the Duke rape case does have to do with “ colored progressive “..is that it points out the facts of racial / socio-economic and judicial disparities in Amerika , that......ARE ONLY CHAMPIONED BY INDIVIDUALS IN THE BLACK PROGRESSIVE RANKS....When it happens to those peoples children( black folks ), it’s not an issue....but now they have come for your kid ( affluent ,white male ), now… it’s all of a sudden an issue, and further than that..... the doing of Black Progressives...Please Wolf....can I get some of what yu are smoking......

What next , are yu implying that the only way for white progressives to understand the world outside your little bubble is that a group of young white males , has to leave a strip club after a bachelor party..and become the gunned down victims of some overly zealot undercover police officers ; would this also be viewed as the responsiblity of those “ colored progressives”...Or the operations of psychopathic so-called law enforcement officers....madmen...who have avioded responsiblity for their actions....based off of the institutionalized license to kill , that is championed for so long on these Amerkan shores......?

Don’t see much in the news about that unfortunate turn of events in NYC.....hmmm....?

If these boys were poor and black or hispanic...and the “ false “ victim was a white woman...( which we all know is the stigmatic reality behind all the emotions involved )...these kids would be in jail..falsely convicted , and fake little white progressive men like the BM would not have said squat..( except to praise the dubious abilities and questionable tactics of law enforcement )......I bet yu wouldn’t have said a thing either...wolf… If I had brought the subject up...yu would have mostly tryed to marginalized the point.......Spare us the sanctimonious act.....

As always BM’s monkeyed response is noted........

Redhorse,

You make some good observations here which never occurred to me.
• The standardized tests unrelated to a child’s perspective —

Any kind of top down program is handicapped by a lack of understanding and an inability to relate. People start from their experience — imagination and the ability to place yourself in another’s world is in short supply.

It seems to me the solution might be to deal with elementary education as close to home as possible. As it is our money goes into the federal dollar shrinking machinery and is or is not returned to our schools haphazardly.

My wife worked as a volunteer in first grade about thirty years ago in what was called the Title 1 program. There were enough volunteers to allow them to really get to know the kids. This was in a predominantly black school and was as much an education for my wife as for the kids. She also got to know black teachers who clued her in on situations which would have escaped her due to her inexperience which helped her to relate better.

The program was scrapped after too short a time to even follow one class through elementary school.  Another of my reasons for disliking federally managed efforts. Way up there they never see the results with people only dollar costs.

I my opinion the early school years (the earlier the better) are the most important for kids. If they can see be with people showing mutual respect, a unity of purpose and genuine caring about them, I think the later years can brush off a lot of stupid things. My only suggestion is the one of keeping the money at home where there is at least a bit of common grown and better chance at accountability than the fed level.

Maybe were seeing “diversity” as meaning different things. In my work experience it meant someone from human resources insisting the photos in an annual report, company newsletter or product brochure included enough women, racial representation, etc. In one annual report a South African assembly plant showed a group of women putting filters together. The woman reviewing the proof copy loudly remarked, “We can’t use this these people aren’t dark enough and there are no men shown.” All of the employees in the department were in the picture — they were from India (as are a lot of their workers) and there were no males in the dept.

So I think of it as artificial PR, which in the army we called “eyewash.”

• More equality in the military —

This certainly matches my service experience. The noncoms in my company were about half white/black with a few Hispanics. I would say they hassled us without favoritism or discrimination.  Everybody stood guard and pulled KP. The best and worst extra details were as far as I could tell handed out at random. The idea that we might get a Hispanic to clean the grease trap in the mess hall (something none of us liked) never came up :-)When we went to town it was often a racially mixed bunch, something I had little experience with until high school.

I see this as a unifying program. Diversity was there naturally and stayed to a degree. But the military works at making uniformity. Pay was equal, our clothes were the same and we were all learning the same new language. Right Face, About Face, SOP, SNAFU, and “Yes, Sir!”

I see attempts to meet quotas (to avoid lawsuits) as causing more division with little benefit to anyone. I wish I had an easy answer, but it is much easier to criticize than to solve.

WTH and RH, between you two if electricity was brains you would light up a one watt bulb. There is plenty of “unity” under totalitarian states
and your model is the extreme collectivist-statist-socialist-fascist-communist army, I understand perfectly where you are coming from,
WTH. We just don’t agree.
RH, if those kids had been black they NEVER would have been charged
on so utterly flimsy a noncase. The DA has been trying to curry favor
with ignorant local blacks because this is an election year.
See the lewrockwell.com website and two dozen columns by William
Anderson on this disgusting pandering to endemic black racism by
a piece of shit DA who knew that lousy whore’s word wasn’t worth a
good goddamn to begin with, even the other black gal with her contradicted her from the get-go.
WTH, equality is a total myth and white Jews like my wife who spent
a month in a Mississipi jail in 1965 for doing civil rights work have come
to regret it, unless the whole Black Left Nationalist Self-Pitying Anti-White MO FO culture is totally repudiated it will be money down a rathole employing baboons like Redhorse SOLELY because they
are black and incompetent. A white male can’t get a city job in most
urban areas because of set aside quotas for incompetent blacks and
incompetent women, black women being the worst because they fill
BOTH quotas.
RH, you can just Suck My Duke, punk.

As always BM’s monkeyed response is noted.......

WTH....the main aspect that is most interesting or troubling , is that there is an overabudance of money and resources going to the military that could be more wisely spent in the education arena....20 billion off the top of any military spending and we got all new schools in 10 years...another 10 billion for Head Start Programs / curriculm reform....400 billion dollars a year for the military....thats not including the so-called war on terror....this is unacceptable.....

It is unfortunate that yu are unable to regain your sanity after our last exchange....BM. Apparently I ( my words ), have brought yu such mindless dis-ease that all yu are able to do is rant incoherently....Aah....such are the wages of the poor of heart and mind…

BM...your delusions of some kind of euro-aryan progressive nationalism is a pipe dream....The Amerika yu know is dead...the youth don’t want your ol’ racial bigotry...this is why yu do not understand shit...because yu are looking at the world like it was 19 fuckin’ 60....yu ol’ buzzard...Yu are an antique to most young folks( at 60+ ), and so are your viewpoints..

The future wants....DEMANDS… information that is relative to tomorrow , not yesterdays slop....Your ideology.....? ? whatever it is.....is simply a sad and extremely inadequate representation of your own personal demons....until yu surrender and give that negative energy over or back to the Universe...yu will continue to suffer ignorance / poverty of mind and soul / and anger.......

Its your choice…

Redhorse,

Actually we and all other western nations have made extreme military budget cuts (under both Bush 41 and Clinton) as a percentage of GDP. The biggest transfer of money has been to the wealthy as a result of globalization scams and tax cuts.

All of life begins as risk (obvious in nature) and a game of survival. Everything which exists (and even that which does not) has an effect on everything else. I just read the Amazon reviews on a book recommended by Frog, “The Great Risk Shift.” It is obvious the politicians and corporate partners pushing the transfer of our jobs for their personal gain either A. are unaware or, B. don’t care.

Regardless of what they may think this is destroying the U.S. economically, socially and militarily.

Some things which do not exist anymore:

• a family-centered society
• job security, incentive to save
• incentive to get more education (jobs will still go to cheaper labor)
• company benefits
• the sense of optimism which aimed toward the “American Dream” which my ancestors reached coming from Europe and so did the progeny of former slaves who moved into factory jobs.

As for national security…

Globalization has made us so impotent we can’t replace HUMVEES and other equipment or even supply enough flak jackets after three and a half years of war. In WWll we produced huge numbers of all materiel after starting from a much lower base.

Our economy is plunging, but like a cartoon character running off a cliff — it hasn’t looked down yet. Our biggest division is becoming economic rather than racial — both inside and from outside the U.S.

We need the kind of unity of purpose which made us the envy of much of the world. In my opinion we are facing threats both internal and external which threaten our survival as a nation.

A unilateral move to be “citizens of the world” leaves us vulnerable to attacks socially (class against class) militarily and economically. I’d include: China, Russia, Radical Muslims and assorted smaller ones. (The opponents size is irrelevant with nuclear events.)

Michael P. Hardesty (aka blondemike) Biography

Brackets [] indicate end note citations.

Mr. Hardesty is a person of strong opinions, but his relationships with fact and logic are weak or non-existent.  Sorting through his thoughts (?), such as they are, is made infinitely more difficult by his inconsistency, reflecting his internal conflicts and scatter-brained approach to his chosen subject matter, which includes principally foreign and domestic politics.

Mr. Hardesty has a wife/companion/housemate/whatever named Nina, and four cats. They all live unhappily in Oakland in a mixed race neighborhood, for which they provide most of the mixing.  Their domestic situation reflects Mr. Hardesty’s combative writing style, as they are involved in legal actions against their neighbors and their veterinarian, and arguments with the Oakland Police Department. 

At various times, Mr. Hardesty has claimed to have a Ph.D. and a moderately high IQ; both claims are certainly spurious.  Mr. Hardesty’s footprints are all over the Internet, with no indication of academic accomplishment, much less intelligence.  But do not confuse our Mr. Michael P. Hardesty with Michael P. Hardesty, the NOAA scientist, or Michael P. Hardesty, the artist, or Michael P. Hardesty, the business executive, and possibly not Michael P. Hardesty, the felon convicted of cocaine and weapons possession.  But it is interesting that our Michael P. Hardesty talks of his .357 Magnum, and the felonious Michael P. Hardesty had a .357 Magnum.  As a convicted felon, the felonious Michael P. Hardesty would be forbidden to own a weapon, so that excludes our Michael P. Hardesty.  Right?

Regardless of any felonicity, our friend Mike’s inconsistency is well documented.  As a left-liberal, Mike has certain assumed attitudes, but his belief system is intermittently shaken by reality:

My housemate and I have been almost the sole whites living in a largely Afro-American neighborhood as homeowners the past four years. Our experiences have caused us to revise our formerly glib left-liberal assumptions on race, welfare, civil rights, affirmative action, gun control, identity politics, rent control, ad nauseam. [1]

Maybe that explains the Mag.

Mike is also inconsistent in his political writings.  If you have been following his semi-literate arguments, Mike is a cultic follower of Noam Chomsky.  Sometimes.

I’ve known and corresponded with Chomsky for almost two decades and recently parted ways with him over his god complex, refusal to acknowledge any errors at all, his recent contortions on the nonexistent silent genocide in Afghanistan and the preposterous lie that thousands or millions may have died as a result of Clinton’s bombing of the Sudan pharmaceutical factory in error. And many more issues where I have butted heads with him.  [2]

But opposites attract, and likes repel.  Mike “refus(es) to acknowledge any errors at all”, and he proclaims “genocide” by capitalism where none exists.  No wonder Mike broke with Chomsky, but you couldn’t tell it from his writings, because Mike has consistently argued on ITT that Chomsky is so great. 

Mike’s writing style may be characterized as haphazard, obscene, and scatalogical, but if it were not scatalogic, it would have no logic at all.  He is big into labels: dumb, stupid, moron, liar, bastard.  But he is opposed to ad hominem attacks.  Go figure.  His signature spelling/grammar error is his use of “your” when he means the homophonic contraction “you’re”.  MIKE IS ALSO BIG ON ALL CAPS AND LOTS OF EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND QUESTION MARKS???????????

Besides ITT, Mike has had running arguments in many Internet venues, which make for interesting reading up to a point, when the story line collapses into sameness and boredom.  Mike has been banned from several sites.  [2], [3]

Mike is big on making idle and not-so-idle threats from behind the (former) security of his keyboard, including advocating use of the Mag and decapitation.  Mike wants me to give him my location so he can come kick my butt.  But he did not give his location, I had to go find it.  It is my firm belief that Mike is of short stature, probably not more than 5’-6”.  This is based on his constant and irrelevant references to size, a classic example of the projection defense mechanism; Mike calls me a little man, because he is insecure about his height.  But I had to knock the heels off my combat boots to get under the height restrictions to get into airborne school.  You still want to kick butt, Michael P.?

[1] http://search.eastbayexpress.com/Issues/2001-07-25/news/letters.html

[2] http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2004/11/chomskys_outlet.html

[3] Blog and website citations:

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/discuss/1774/

http://www.oaklandnews.com/archives/000061.html

http://www.tomgpalmer.com/archives/015527.php

http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/article.cfm?archiveDate=12-28-01&storyID= =9248

http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/hardesty.htm

http://www.berkeleydaily.org/opinion_article.cfm?archiveDate=12-28-01&storyI ID=9248

http://www.sfweekly.com/Issues/1998-04-15/news/letters.html

scorp,

Thanks for the BM data. Actually, I was beginning to feel a bit guilty for yanking his chain and foe some of my insults. At least I can say that anyone who likes animals can’t be all bad.

I have been coming to this site for some time now and generally disagree with the thrust of the articles, but must admit that through the exchange of ideas here some of my own have been modified. There is no substitute for hearing people relate their personal experiences regarding an issue.  We all come at life’s problems with different biases born of experience, indoctrination, etc., but broadening our thinking to realize there are unrealized alternative possibilities keeps life interesting.

Choosing an emotional response rather than rational seems to be a universal temptation.

About all I know of Asian thinking is their view on the inter relatedness of everything. The older I get the more sensible this becomes.

Scorp, as usual you are full of shit. Just for the record I’m 6’1.
I’m glad your Fed employers have helped you in your “research.”
Sure, I’ll kick your stinky butt, punk. I’ve whipped you in every
intellectual exchange we’ve had and I correctly called the shots
on your govt involvement several weeks back on the other ITT thread
because I could see how testy you became on the subject of Paul
Brenner and his reign in Occupied Iraq. To date you have not made
one COHERENT argument, much less a refutation of any sort.
You have specialized in ad hominem attacks in lieu of serious
argument.
The record of five centuries of genocide under capitalism is rather
well documented by scholars ranging from Harry Elmer Barnes to
Howard Zinn to Eugene Genovese to most historians. It’s not even
controversial. Anywhere from ten to one hundred million Blacks were
killed in the very capitalistic slave trade, anywhere from a few million
to 10 to 35 million “Indians” killed north of the Rio Grande by the
capitalistic empires of Britain & France and many more killed south
of the Rio Grande by the capitalistic empire of the Spanairds.
Several hundred thousand Filipinos killed by the US in the “liberation”
of the Phillipines in 1898. Ergo for Cuba, Hawaii and Puerto Rico at
the same time. Hundreds of thousands killed by capitalist US proxy
terror states in El Salvador, Guatemala, Brazil, Chile, Haiti, the Dominican
Republic, Argentina, Colombia, Peru, Panama, Nicaragua etc. just during
the course of the 20th century.
Actually hundreds of thousands of Nicaraguans alone were
killed by the US fascist contra thugs. See Carleton Beals
and J. Fred Rippy just on capitalism’s huge death toll in Latin
America. Chomsky is good here too but only one of many.
On Chomsky, just like anyone else, I laud him when he’s right
and criticize him when he’s wrong. I know that’s kind of complex
for your tiny mind, “Scorp.”
See William Blum’s 1983 book CIA for the estimates of six million
killed by the US Capitalist foreign policy from 1945-1980. And that
figure is sadly out of date today.
Your is as valid as you’re. When one is exclusively focussing on an
individual item, then you’re is appropriate, when a more general or
collective sense is meant, then your is appropriate. Coming from
someone like yourself who can’t write a coherent sentence, who
can’t spell the simplest words and whose sentence structure is often
unintelligible, the grammar lessons are a hoot.
I’m glad my caps the other day so got under your skin, “Scorp” or
whatever your real identity is. The reason I did it big time on that
particular occasion was that I was tired of repeating the same points
over ad infinitum. I thought maybe you would catch it if it were bolded
and apparently you did because you have never stopped whining
ever since.
I’ve never been convicted of a felony or any other crime. Your statement
here is per se libelous and if you would reveal your name & address,
I’d be happy to sue you. The rest of your comments are the usual
venomous garbage but the felony statement is a pure libel.
Philosophically I have been completely consistent in my left libertarian
views. Politically I’ve changed my mind when the facts warranted it
or I discovered a better interpretation of events.
Scorp, you are a coward, a lowlife, a libeler and an agent provocateur.
The only site I was ever banned from was the Oakland News, run by
a local Demo Party hack named Jeannette Sherwin. She regularly
banned people she disagreed with including most members of
the Oakland City Council. Shortly after she banned me she was struck
dead. Good riddance was the almost universal reaction here.
Redhorse, as usual your drug and drink induced words make no
sense.
WTH, you better get your facts from other than a govt financed agent
provocateur like “Scorp.”
Again, “Scorp” I challenge you to reveal your real identity.

Coming from a schizo....I’ll take your comments as proof of the fact , that yu are a rambling idiot...lost in his own anal-retentive drama.....
It’s funny how close Scorps outline of your personality...is so close to what Redhorse imaged...even down to the fact that your neighbors find yu obnoxious....Why am I not surprized.......................’ toon..

Redhorse, Scorp is a rightwing white trash version of you.
It’s no more complicated than that. Scorp is not only a
government agent provocateur but a prime example of
what Senator Robert Byrd, D, W. VA, called
a “whigger.” See if you can figure that one out.
The only neighbors that don’t like us are two criminals, we have
great relations with all the rest including several black families.
They share our distaste for black criminals like yourself.
Nina is the captain of our neighborhood crime alert group.
Please spare us the pseudo-psych ramblings. We stopped
our heavy giving to the United Negro College Fund when they
started turning out too many illiterates like yourself.
Scorp, WTH and you MIGHT light up a one watt bulb if
electricity were brains on your best days.
What be yo’ ghetto, little hinepos ? Philly ? Camden ?

My housemate and I have been almost the sole whites living in a largely Afro-American neighborhood as homeowners the past four years. Our experiences have caused us to revise our formerly glib left-liberal assumptions on race, welfare, civil rights, affirmative action, gun control, identity politics, rent control, ad nauseam.

The only neighbors that don’t like us are two criminals, we have great relations with all the rest including several black families.

So, will the real Mr. Hardesty please stand up?  Are things so bad in your neighborhood that it has caused you “to revise our formerly glib left-liberal assumptions on race, welfare, civil rights, affirmative action, gun control, identity politics, rent control, ad nauseam (sic)” or do you really “have great relations with all the rest including several black families”?  Or do you just say any damn-fool thing that pops into your head at the moment?  And where does the Mag fit into all this?

No....BM.....Scorp is not a friend of the Redhorse.....Based off of the Political Compass scores yu are more likely to see eye to eye with the Scorp , at least on matters of economics..Didn’t yu score...somewhere in the fascist range.......? .chucky..

The last quote doesn’t contradict the earlier quote. It’s a difference of
several years and getting to know our noncriminal neighbors.
When we were the first whites we did run into some serious problems
from just a few people but the others stood by and ignored it. As we
have gotten established over the last decade relationships have now
improved. Many blacks are quite conservative on noncivil rights issues
such as welfare, affirmative action, rent control, gun control, school
busing and we strongly share their views. My wife comes from a leftist
background and I originally from a libertarian background. 
We still have a couple of black criminal neighbors but we try to
give them wide berth. And several blacks now share our negative
attitude towards the whole lumpen mo fo black anti-culture.
Redhorse, I still don’t know the meaning of my score in that test.

Scorp & Redhorse,

Life is funny. A couple days a ago I made an appeal on this thread for more unity — no way did I expect results so soon. BM has lumped the three of us together as a conspiracy in the making. We’re about to takeover an electric grid!

Unity is here!

I must admit I am begining to wonder about my own identity though. I’m being discribed at times as a Nazi and then in as in league with a commie and “criminal”. I know at times I have agreed with each of you on different issues. Left, Right, Left, Right,Left, Right, Left, Right — I’d say he’s marching to a his own drummer.

There are so many accusations flying around..."government agent,” long term genocide — more plots than a collection of spy novels. I didn’t realize just how exciting my life had become until now.

:-)

Blondie,

Calm down. This is just a discussion venue, not a recruiting forum for a world takerover. For a while how about trying to just state your own position, read some other ones, kick back, relax and give different ideas some thought.

Life is too short for so much anger. (And it can make it still shorter.)

I’d like to know what the Jews have done to M. Hardesty to make him so hostile to them. Certainly Jews have nothing to do with the maladies of the distinguished M. Hardesty!!

Chicago, I never intended on bringing up the subject of holocaust
revisionism but was only replying to what appeared to be an implication
by Scorp that Crystal Night was the start of the so-called holocaust.
Scorp later denied that he meant to say that. Okay.
I pointed out that even the establishment “scholars” here date it from
summer 1942-summer 1944. You then burst in with a crazed attack
on me and I decided to respond. You do not speak for the “Jewish
people.” You would not have the slightest knowledge of my interactions
with many Jews, so why bother to comment ? My wife is Jewish and
that’s all you need to know.
WTH, your right that I am taking this much too seriously. I just found
Scorp’s “research” quite creepy. And it was part of a pattern to discredit
the message by attacking the messenger.
Scorp, mag is strictly for self-protection. I don’t hunt, am not a
vegetarian nut but it’s just not my bag. I support the NRA.  One
of the few pressure groups worth a damn.

That’s the point ol’ man....nobody here can understand and or figure out your message....BM....Not WTH , nor Cabbie.....certianly not Redhorse....even your ol’ friend David...came by...and was friendly...but yu cursed him too....So...at great risk too further boredom....What the hell is your message....? Because trashing black folks will only get yu bonus points with the Klan or Micheal Richards......YU HAVE NO MESSAGE....

Scorp, I have to add that you would have been banned
from Jeannette Sherwin’s online only Oakland News.
She was a hardcore Democratic Party hack and was furious
with Nina & I for voting for Nader in 2000. I tried to patiently
explain to her why even from a progressive viewpoint the
Dems were a fraud. I wasn’t endorsing the GOP, just bashing
the Dems and I did support the Gray Davis recall. I voted for
Tom McClintock, an intelligent conservative Republican because
I agreed with him on economic issues but not on abortion, etc.
Arnie’s a dunce but better than Davis. She had a fit. Her ex was
Carl Pope, head of the Sierra club whom I went to high school
with back near DC. They had adopted a black orphan and he
turned out to be the kid from hell, has been in state prison for
many years. Jeannette ending up HATING blacks because she
lived near door to a huge public housing project in north Oakland.
There were shootings and knifings galore, public defecation and
urination, drug dealing, public sex, tire slashings, etc., all the common
stuff in too many neighborhoods. But she was so politically correct
that she still voted against proposals by black statesman Ward Connerly
to end affirmative action ! I labelled the Demo replacement
candidate, Bustamante, as Bustabeaner because he was a worthless
halfassed professional Latino. She thought that was “racist.”
Even though she regularly used the N word. He went down in flames
and even some top Demo Party officials backed The Terminator instead.
Last I heard Jeannette was in a very warm, southerly place.

Horse, you can’t even spell MICHAEL !
Damn, but your a stupid SOB. I never attacked
ALL black folks but only the black communist trash
that thinks like you.
David and I are quite friendly.
I don’t fit a simpleminded left-right pattern and it drives
all the ideologues here crazy !
At heart I’m blacker than you, horse, in the good affirmative
sense of black being the strongest color. Have no use for
these faux, fake high yeller negroes like you.
Chicago, I must confess that my wife does have a very low
opinion of most Jewish males and after meeting her father
& brother I could understand why. As a good progressive I try
to urge her not to generalize. Unfortunately, Chicago, people
like you CREATE anti-semitism. You are your own worst enemy.
I’m willing to take you on as a therapy patient but my rates are
very high.
Scorp, I never received my Ph.D’s from Eureka College.
That strictly is cow country.

WTH.........yu do have an eye for the ironic.....I’ll make sure I’m sitting when I laugh about that one....I did try to briefly make that point to BM....but yu know how that ended.....the guys an enigma....

So now Redhorse , WTH....and Scorp are bedfellows in conspiracies.....I would guess that stranger scenarios have appeared....

WTH,

You seem slightly conservative but well informed, fair, and reasonable. Do you have any comments on BM’s violent commitment to Holocaust Revisionism? It’s really quite frightening!! I never thought I’d see this stuff on the ITT blog even from the worst trolls. What are your thoughts?

Redhorse, if you think that only Klansmen are fed of up
of massive Afro anti-social behavior, you are one deluded
fool. Most of the GOP victories since 1966 have been due to
Middle American backlash against massive black criminality.
31% of Oaktown but 78% of the crimes. 8% of Frisco but at
least 60% of the crime.
Time for a reality check, bro.  In 1991 Duke won 60% of the
Euro American vote running for Governor of Louisiana.
He’s a hell of a handsome dude since his plastic surgery too.