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So what technology would be acceptable to bleeding hearts? NERF batons. Squirt guns? Harsh language?
In a perfect world reason and logic would render technologies such as these a moot point. However the cracked out mental patients stalking our streets are immune to reason and logic.
Most if not all police departments require the officers who will carry TASER’s to be shocked by one. So of the thousands of officers who have received a TASER blast none have died or sustained any injury. Strange for such a “dangerous” weapon.
The common denominator of the around 167 suspects who have died following TASER use?
http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/1224taserlist24-ON.html has the results of 50 autopsies.
of the 50 cases 30 were under the influence of illegal drugs. The remainder were mentally ill or pre existing health conditions. Three were cause unknown. One case was considered illegal and resulted in the jailer being charged with battery with a deadly weapon.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 12, 2007 at 7:48 PM
There are other options than “non-lethal” technologies. Dresden, for example.
The fascist empire died of lethal force.
The socialist empires died of corruption and inefficiency and sanity. They were not crazy enough to blow up the world for their absurd political and economic beliefs.
The Jihadists and their projected Caliphate are corrupt, inefficient, and insane. They are quite willing to blow up the world to further their religious vision of Allah’s will.
The West can stop the Jihadists at little cost, just as it could have stopped Lenin in 1918, Hitler in 1938, and Mao in 1946, at little cost. When people like Lenin, Hitler, Mao, and the Jihadists are kind enough to describe in detail that they want to destroy you and your way of life, you are probably safe in believing them. And sooner or later, they must be stopped, or yielded to.
The strangest aspect of the Jihadist threat is it
Posted by scorp on Jan 13, 2007 at 12:45 PM
Tex and Scorp,
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 14, 2007 at 10:44 AM
Sticking to the topic….. Less than lethal technology is the greatest leap forward in law enforcement in the past hundred years. Beanbag shells, sticky nets, TASER’s, Pepper Spray, Water Cannons, and now the new generation of Pulsed Energy Projectiles and Active Denial System. Lasers and Microwaves are the best leap forward to offer an alternative to simply shooting a suspect with a weapon.
The key word to understand is LESS THAN LETHAL. The technology is based on pain to incapacitate rather than kill. As with any technology death or injury is always a possibility. Considering the tens of thousands of suspects who have been arrested without incident using TASER’s and other LTL technology the 167 deaths are a statistical aberration.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 14, 2007 at 12:14 PM
WTH -
TASERing the bastards is not the object, but the means to the object.
The objects are to preserve Lebanese independence, to sever the shaky mutual admiration society between Persian Iran and Arab Syria, to stop the killing in Iraq and allow democracy to grow there, to allow the Palestinians to burn out their passion against each other rather than against Israel, to further development of democracy in the other Arab states, and to prevent Iran from developing nukes and thereby controlling the oil resources of the Middle East.
In this regard, Luttwak has a clarifying article in WSJ that brings vague observations into sharp focus.
http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009521
We no longer have this capability (mass military hardware production) due to globalization/offshoring of our manufacturing.
WTH, knock this crap off. We manufacture more than we ever have, and we do it with fewer people. The stuff that is purchased offshore is low tech items such as textiles and household goods. We have the finest high tech manufacturing capability in the world, certainly including aviation, avionics, electronics, tanks and armored vehicles, and combat shipbuilding. No one comes close to our capability for quality and quantity in these areas. Relax.
Posted by scorp on Jan 14, 2007 at 12:20 PM
Scorp,
Your reaction makes you sound like a part of the management class which is cashing in on options as the labor cuts boost the per share price. I argued for the last ten years before I retired with some of these guys who claimed it was so painful to let people go. They eased their own pain by voting each other great bonuses.
If our manufacturing capabilities were as good as you think they are we would be able to provide body armor and replacements for the HUMVEES, etc.
I live in what used to be the machine tool center of the U.S. I worked at and later was a supplier to an aviation/military parts mfg company from 1960 to 1998. Of over 30 manufacturing companies in 1952, two are still around (barely). All of these companies were involved in WWll war production.
When the experienced machinists were pushed into early retirement their apprentice programs dried up and now there are claims of a shortage. Part of the lack is due to the gap in training, but mostly it is that companies won
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 14, 2007 at 2:41 PM
WTH -
No options.
The excitement over the body armor and the vehicle armor lasted a few weeks, but when was the last time you heard anyone complain about this particular problem? Problems are for solving, and USA military logistics is extremely good, and getting better.
Regarding your concern about the machinists. I am from the oil patch. A shell-and-tube heat exchanger is a big metal cylinder with a large number of tubes running lengthwise or bent back upon themselves within the exchanger. Each tube passes through a tube sheet and is sealed to the tube sheet, which is a large, thick metal disk with multiple holes drilled in it for the tubes. The tube sheet acts as a seal between the cooling fluid and the cooled fluid.
At one time, a machinist and helper laid out the hole pattern for the tube sheets and individually drllled each hole. No more. Now the tube sheet blanks are mounted in a computer operated milling machine, and one operator/programmer controls several machines. The result is a faster, cheaper, more accurate product. You can certainly see the advantages of such a system. But you mistakenly believe that making products
Posted by scorp on Jan 16, 2007 at 10:52 AM
Scorp, over one third of US manufacturing capacity has disappeared since Bush 2 stole the 2000 Election. We manufacture LESS than we ever have and our huge trade deficit with China proves that. No ,the wealth is NOT filtering down as many conservative commentators like Pat Buchanan and Paul Craig Roberts have noted but the former disparity of 30 to 1 by bosses over workers has now gone to 400 or 500 to 1, astronomical levels not seen since the twenties. Most of the middle class believe that they are getting the shaft because they ARE getting the shaft and none of the bogus stats or phony arguments that you plagiarize directly from Rush Limbaugh can alter that fact. Yes, the poor are getting poorer and many middle class people are getting poorer. Incomes for most people are NOT at a record high and the actual unemployment rate is double the official because they do NOT count whose benefits have run out and people who have stopped looking for work. In the 50s a man could support with ONE income, now most people are struggling with TWO incomes and many more people are working longer hours and two jobs. Scorp, you need to open that bigoted little pea mind of yours and take an honest look at objective reality as my friend Rand used to say. Check your premises because they are all wrong. Until the 1880s corporations were public entities chartered by government for specific, time limited public purposes like railroads, canals, bridges, things too capital intensive for most businesses. Then the disastrous Supreme Court decision near the end of the 19th century, Santa Clara County vs. Southern Pacific RR which created the myth of crporate personhood, which is why scoundrels like the recent CEO who drove Home Depot down retire with 241 MILLION DOLLAR golden parachutea ! He certainly didn’t “earn” it, rather the opposite. See David Korten’s 1995 work When Coroprations Rule The World. For starters. That “Index of economic freedom” gives totalitarian states like Singapore the top ratings, a rather worthless guide, Scorp. Check out the Multinational Monitor and the Corporate Accountability Project. Limited liability means NONresponsibility and is a rather extreme statist intervention in favor of business which the Repugnicant buffoons like Scorp somehow never mention. The earlier historical analogies that Scorp mentions don’t hold because this is a much greater change, now even white collar jobs are being outsourced and there are some great books on this subject, go to amazon and punch in globalization & outsourcing. What is happening with these multilateral treaties is that the Swedens are being dumbdowned to the Spains and Mexico is now losing jobs to Bangladesh in a race to the bottom. This is fact, not any leftist insight. Ignore the panglossian rants of our deluded dittohead, Scorp, he’s never had an original thought in his life. Never.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 16, 2007 at 11:14 AM
Texass, these tasers HAVE killed people, that’s the controversy and when they haven’t killed them they have often seriously injured them and they have been used on many people who have not committed violent crimes. If the death is yours or a close family member it is NOT a statistical aberration. WTH, yes it took the treason committed by FDR and George Marshall at Pearl Harbor to get us into the Back Door To War as the brilliant book of that name by Charles Callan Tansill demonstrated at tiresome length. Unconditional surrender was a policy we dropped towards the Japanese, our main enemy, let them keep the Emperor, etc. It was a disastrous policy in Europe which to the Soviet takeover of half of Germany and all of central Europe. The War Morons like you really believe if only we kill many more people the world will be just dandy. We were far better off under the isolationists than six decades of globaloney. And Scorp, Pat Buchanan demonstrated in The Great Betrayal that the US had high tariffs till the 1970s and these tariffs, NOT “free trade” is what created US prosperity. The GOP was staunchly pro-high tariff up to Reagan and when crunch time came Reagan abandoned the free trade mantra and imposed very high tariffs on imported steel and textiles. So much for “globalization.” NAFTA has not benefited MOST of the USA or MOST of Mexico. There are exceptions that prove the general rule. Scorp, you are a stupid loudmouth neoconman who doesn’t even know his own conservative and Republican history. I can understand someone like Nacho Texass whose of recent vintage but a native (?) I’m assuming your not Chinese like bro-in-law (oh, that was a touching story….......sniff, sniff.) The growth in China and India is distinctly not to the advantage of most US workers, now even computer & other professional jobs are being outsourced to both. India still has over a billion people in poverty as does China, both have around 1.3 billion people and in the case of China it is still very much ruled by a hostile Communist Party which is using the economic boom to finance a tremendous buildup in all areas including the miltary and they are making effective use of dual use technology. Krugman was a cheerleader for NAFTA but has wised up and has been devastating in his expose of the Reagan-Bush Voodoo Anti-Economics, first labeled as such by Bush Sr. Since the early 1970s per capita income relative to inflation has stagnated, the booms since then have been artificial Fed financed ones which invariably end in a bust. Krugman is right that there are serious structural problems. Tariffs and various governmental controls during the 20th century mitigated the always abrasive effects of globalization for most people. The winners here as Lewis Lapham recently noted in Harper’s are an increasingly smaller percentage of the US population. Except for utterly useless military equipment like tanks every one of the areas Scorp listed are now going overseas big time. Boeing just lost out to China. This is difference in principle from earlier capitalistic dislocations because we are going to end up being a nation of low paid service workers. Wal-Mart is our biggest industry and Manpower Temp Agency our biggest employer.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 16, 2007 at 11:35 AM
Scorp, you need to immediately remove the panglossian rose-tinted shades because you are functioning at zero tunnel vision. If all you can do is recycle Rush’s handouts that he plagiarizes from big biz that is pretty pathetic and fooling no one anymore. Even a rightist dumbass like WTH knows that we are in very deep shit now. Many of the Index on Economic Freedom States that you mention are totalitarian fascist dictatorships like Singapore, Indonesia, etc. You will notice that all of those freedom states have a great deal more government intervention into their economies than even the USA. By the way, the NYTimes and Krugman are not leftists nor are the Clintons. They are all utterly pragmatic centrists. “Leftist” and “socialist” as used by Scorp are simply terms of abuse, they have no relation to the real world and no one that Scorp tags as leftist or socialist advocates nationalization & exclusive central planning. Many left libertarians like myself are concerned about the totalitarian & collectivist entities called corporations, a creature of the state. Scorp never deals with any points made against his position but merely comes back with some irrelevant bullshit about Russia in 1923. Scorp is simply a lowlife redbaiting troll sent by the Feds to disrupt any dissident boards with the lowest type of utterly moronic Reaganite anecdotes which invariably turn out to be false. He gets his behind kicked on every thread but then retreats and comes on a new one to throw some more crap to see if any of it will stick.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 16, 2007 at 5:32 PM
Hardesty -
Scorp, over one third of US manufacturing capacity has disappeared since Bush 2 stole the 2000 Election. We manufacture LESS than we ever have and our huge trade deficit with China proves that.
It is not possible that you are so grossly mistaken so often, so you must be a habitual liar in pursuit of your “left libertarian” agenda, whatever that is. I fail to see how socialist dishonesty differs from left libertarian dishonesty.
The Bubba Bubble surplus peaked in 1999, and was in free-fall during the last fifteen months of the Clinton Administration. You don’t have to believe me, any federal surplus-deficit chart shows this clearly. Industrial production and capacity utilization started into free-fall in the middle of Clinton’s last year. Industrial capacity continued to build during this period because of the lead-time of capital construction. The markets, particularly the NASDAQ but also the DOW, were falling in Clinton’s last year.
Falling markets, falling production, and falling budget surplusus are a clear indication of economic instability and a coming recession, and it all happened on Clinton’s watch.
Your first lie above was that “over one third of US manufacturing capacity has disappeared”. This is not true. Capital investment slowed during the Clinton Recession, but there is no discernable loss of capacity during this period, and capacity is now increasing and is higher than it has ever been. (Graph 1, cite.)
Your second lie is that we “manufacture LESS than we ever have and our huge trade deficit with China proves that”. Ummm, no. We manufacture more than we ever have. (Graph 1, cite.) While our purchases in China are doing wonders for the Chinese economy, they are fairly small on the scale of the USA economy.
Your third lie will be that the Federal Reseve is lying and that you know better than the Federal Reserve the status of industrial capacity, production, and utilization. Just like you know better what the unemployment rate is, and the levels of income, despite all evidence to the contrary.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/bulletin/2006/ip06.pdf
Posted by scorp on Jan 16, 2007 at 6:59 PM
I do know better than the Fed because everyone with half a brain knows that the unemployment rate is severely undercounted for the reasons that I listed yesterday. They don’t count people who have given up looking, they do count part-time employment which skewers the figures, they don’t count people whose unemployment benefits have run out and they do count the military which further dishonestly skewers the figures. Interesting that a self-proclaimed “conservative” would rely
on that most statist of institutions the political Federal Reserve System for his “figures.” The way Greenspan politiciized the Reserve for both Dems and Reps is notorious. Being called a “liar” by a world champion liar like you, Scorp, is like being called an adulterer by Liz Taylor. You gotta be kidding ! I KNOW the unemployment rate is AT LEAST double the government “official” figures and I KNOW that per capita income growth adjusted for inflation has been stagnant if not in decline
since 1973. I’ve already rebutted the Clinton depression theory, only the dotcom overhyped NASDAQ crashed in 2000, NOT 1999 and the rest of the economy prospered until the Bush Depression starting after he stole the Presidency in early 2001 and it went on until 2005.
BUSH WAS THE FIRST PRESIDENT SINCE HERBERT HOOVER TO RESIDE OVER NO NET JOB GROWTH DURING HIS FIRST ADMINISTRATION. And, yes, Scorp, YOU know that too.
You’re third paragraph is an outright lie and you got it from Limbaugh’s broadcast yesterday ! I heard it too ! Falling markets and falling production came under BUSH TWO. Now you’re disingenuous remark about “falling budget surpluses” cracks me up ! At least Clinton had
surpluses ! Bush took five trillion in projected surpluses and turned it into five trillion of projected DEFICITS. Let’s see if little Scorp can figure this one out, Clinton-Surpluses, Bush-Deficits.
Yes, we DO manufacture much less than ever before in civilian products, fully 1/3rd of all manufacturing jobs have disappeared under BUSH TWO. ONE THIRD. And that has NOT been the result of automation. It has been a result of US jobs being outsourced overseas. There are any number of books that document this, get off you’re lazy ass on amazon for starters and you can find them. Our trade DEFICIT is the LARGEST ever in history and most of it is with China, so you’re imbecilic statement that China has not hurt the US worker is on a par with the rest of you’re pathetic Limbaughisms. The “wonders” of the Chinese economy is what is bankrupting the USA
without lifting over a BILLION Chinese out of poverty and the extra US cash Red China has now gives them control over the USA. They could shut us tomorrow if they withdrew their funds here, they are the ones subsidizing our multi-trillion dollar debt that BUSH TWO has created, you sick moron and the USA is BANKRUPT. I can refer you to a talk this summer by the Director of the Federal Reserve in St. Louis demonstrating that the USA is bankrupt, I’ll look it again and come back with the exact reference. Scorp, it’s always a pleasure to beat you’re stinky, lying ass and please give my best to bro-in-law, sniff, sniff, sniff. BTW, no one here has advocated “socialism” which is central planning and the nationalization of the means of production. So you take you’re totally and typically inaccurate “leftist” and “socialist” and put them straight up you’re stinky behind. Again, give my sniff, sniff, sniff to bro-in-law, I’m sure he’s not the only one in your sorry little family to see the inside of a lunatic asylum.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 17, 2007 at 9:40 AM
Scorp,
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 17, 2007 at 12:58 PM
WTH, thanks for your response to him but he’s a total braindead asshole. I’ve pointed out his errors with refs up the gazoo and he just keeps repeating the same mindless Limbaughite line.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 17, 2007 at 2:48 PM
Blondemike,
This is not a smart/dumb issue. People will always be more apt to think of their own experience as the norm. I just happened to be among those who at the end of my working days got nailed. If I had been untouched I would be harder to convince. A bit of humility was acquired late in life.
It caused me to start spending my retirement savings about the same time the stock market tanked in 2000. My youngest son lost two jobs as a result of globalization and is still working at less than half what he made 12 years ago. Several of my friends had similar experiences across the country.
But other friends (intelligent individuals) who were unaffected often disagree with me when the topic comes up.
Our city (pop. 150,000) was more adversely affected due to all the manufacturing
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 17, 2007 at 5:50 PM
WTH, I’m not disputing your experience and in fact agree with much of what you say. I’m talking about the transparent intellectual dishonesty of Scorp. Every point he’s made here has been refuted with refs on several other threads. He never deals with the points made and just reiterates his arguable (to put it charitably) assertions. I appreciate your efforts here and it’s a great old American custom to set the public record straight. I’m merely warning you that it won’t in the least affect this guy nor prevent him from spewing out the same rebutted crap again here or on a new thread. I understand the value of personal experience and agree entirely with you about globalization. You bring it down to the micro level and that’s good. Scorp is arguing on the broad macro level and that is where I’ve been going after him. His pollyana panglossian assertions long ago rubbed me the wrong way. There’s a zillion loudmouth jerks like him on rightwing hate talk radio, they all have a right to their views but so do those of us who dissent from them. Here I believe we’re on the same wave length and our responses to Scorp are different enough not to be duplicative though in the end we come to the same conclusion. Again thanks.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 17, 2007 at 6:07 PM
Hardesty -
Bankrupt? Gee, maybe we better go file for Chapter 11. Actually, countries do not go bankrupt in the way that individuals or companies do.
The only way a country could go bankrupt would be for the currency to collapse or for the currency to hyperinflate. I have followed left-wind doom-and-gloom pronouncements for a number of years. During this time there have been several cycles of collapse/hyperinflate paranoia, always by people on the far left, including your silly self. But the economy just keeps sailing along, punctuated by nasty little episodes like the Carter Catastrophe and the Bubba Bubble. Carter was ignorant of what to do about the economic problems he created and Clinton was oblivious to the economic and all the other problems he created, so don
Posted by scorp on Jan 17, 2007 at 7:42 PM
WTH
Posted by scorp on Jan 17, 2007 at 9:08 PM
Scorp,
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 18, 2007 at 7:34 AM
They do go bankrupt though. It takes longer because they can print money and they have a legal monopoly on the use of force. The Paciific Research Institute here in San Francisco is a rightwing, corporate funded think tank. Their studies have to be taken with a whole shaker of salt because they tend to “document” to dovetail with their pre-agreed on ideological conclusions. In a sense the whole debate on the left-right axis is now sterile. Each side reads to reinforce their prejudices.
Red states overall income level is much lower than Blue states. The South still leads in the number of poor states and the Mountain states are behind in terms of income and education with the Blue states, only Colorado excepted which is going from red to blue. In Georgia Atlanta is blue while its suburbs are mostly red. In fact every blue state has red zones and every red state has blue zones. But if the US as a whole goes down financially being in a red state won’t save you. There are no socialist factors or socialist governments in either red or blue states and the overall US economic condition is more dictated by Federal policies than state ones. One state may have more regulation of business than another but those states also have higher educational levels and more prosperous businesses. Much of the job growth in the red states is in lower paying service jobs.
WTH, my wife is in the market so I hope you’re wrong here. I never trusted the stock market but maybe I’m too conservative financially.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 18, 2007 at 10:14 AM
WTH
Posted by scorp on Jan 18, 2007 at 11:39 AM
There was no Carter “catastrophe” a recession yes, which lengthened into a three year Reagan Depression. Ergo for Clinton, a brief NASDAQ bubble burst because dotcom overvaluation which lengthened into a four Bush Depression AS THE FIRST PRESIDENT SINCE HERBERT HOOVER WITH NO NET JOB GROWTH DURING HIS FIRST TERM. Most Americans are NOT heavily invested but lightly invested and many Americans lost a total of three trillion in assets during Bush 2’s stock
market & depression crash. Who are you trying to kid with that Limbaugh Lite Pollyanna bullshit ????????????? The Chinese only keep here until they think the eurodollar is better as Venezuela is doing now. The dollar also gone way down under Bush 2. Do you ever even look
at a newspaper, even the WSJ in the NONeditorial pages are quite good. Excuse me, Scorp, but ALL the East Asian Tiger States plus China have MUCH MORE STATE INTERVENTION IN THE ECONOMY than even we do and we have quite a bit. Read Alice Amsden’s work on South Korea, a centrally planned state capitalist economy that forbade South Korean companies from divestment under penalty of death. The people in low state taxes are NOT more prosperous than people in high tax so-called blue states. The South, which is 90% of the so-called red states, have far lower per capita average income and educational levels than the high tax bluev states. Most of those jobs invented here are now being shipped abroad, see Lou Dobbs, conservative commentator on CNN. See Kevin Phillips, a longtime conservative author. The Census Bureau will confirm the stats on blue and red states incomes. Nice of you to offer WTH advice but I don’t think he needs yours. You do not have an especially good track record.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 18, 2007 at 12:52 PM
Scorp,
I remember the Carter years very well.
I had been investing for some time already and in the 60s there was a period called
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 18, 2007 at 2:05 PM
WTH, again we’re all in you’re debt here for you’re perceptive comments. At least you are correcting the record. Thanks.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 18, 2007 at 2:45 PM
WTH
Posted by scorp on Jan 18, 2007 at 7:40 PM
Scorp, who are you trying to kid with your falsified history ? “17 years” ! ? The 1973 recession lasted till 1976, GOP Administration. The Carter recession DIDN’T START TILL 1979, 1979-1980. Math computes this as FIVE YEARS, NOT SEVENTEEN. Then the first three years of Reagan’s term we were in the WORST DEPRESSION since the 1930s. Reagan did curtail inflation finally by 1984 by the old fashioned method of a depression. Then in Reagan’s last year 1988 the bubble burst again and a recession started which turned into the Bush 1 Depression of late 1990-early 1993. There was double digit unemployment here in California, Alabama, Michigan and Pennsylvania and possibly in other states too. Crashes are not infrequent things, in fact under Reagan we had the major Black Monday Stock Market Crash in October, 1987. Market went down over 500 points, the worst drop ever since the Great Depression and it was YEARS rebounding. Spare us your Rush Limbaugh Faked GOP Shit smells Chanel No. 5 line, no one is buying it.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 19, 2007 at 9:14 AM
Scorp,
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 19, 2007 at 10:14 AM
WTH -
<blockquote>Recessions, bubbles, tax breaks are short term events and financial tactics
Posted by scorp on Jan 19, 2007 at 11:03 PM
Scorp,
Take a look at your own comments:
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 20, 2007 at 8:36 AM
WTH -
Well, I certainly addressed your stated concerns. Now you say that this was not what you are talking about?
My alluding to computer prices falling and “anyone in any country” having access to technology is to point to the vulnerability of our economic condition and how it IS already affecting us.
Naah. Our productivity is making us invulnerable. The Chinese need our dollars to stabilize and improve their economy. Now, how would our “economic condition” be affected if we kept 1.3 billion Chinese and 1.3 billion Muslims in poverty, poor, undernourished, and unhappy, while raising prices for everything we buy? There are lots of things worse than prosperity.
I think this is your real concern:
With well-paying manufacturing jobs rapidly transferring to foreign countries our people in their prime earning years (and prime expense years) are losing ground.
This could be a real concern for a Blue State resident, over taxed, over regulated, over lawyered, and over seen by a big state government. Fortunately, it is not true for most people. This is my statement to Loony Booty on another thread:
You do not say so directly, but you seem to have bought into the left-wind fiction that the poor are getting poorer. That is nonsense, of course. Paul Krugman perpetrates and perpetuates this fiction. All five quintiles of adjusted income improve over time, and an arbitrarily defined middle-class and under-class are both growing smaller as the number and conditions of the better off continue to grow and improve. We are working our way out of poverty, just as China and India are doing. We are just doing it much more rapidly than anyone else. Now if we could just get Congress to use the SS surplus for personal investments, everyone could retire early in comfort.
http://www.madison.com/post/forum/viewtopic.php?p=159235&sid=cd90c598f95ae64fe48a859bc76d201b
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=121306A
Income and Wealth, by economist Alan Reynolds
You are projecting your individual circumstance onto the nation at large, and big chunks of the left media are glad to capitalize on your fears. I am amazed that so many people allow themselves to be manipulated by the agenda-driven, nonsensical drivel of the NYT.
Bad news sells, and there is no shortage of manufacturing capacity for bad news.
Posted by scorp on Jan 20, 2007 at 10:58 AM
Dream on, Scorp
I predict:
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 20, 2007 at 3:38 PM
CORRECTION (The edit won’t work with my OS.)
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 21, 2007 at 6:19 AM
WTH -
Sheesh! You are taking counsel of you fears, and your fears won. You are a glutton for punishment.
If the Dimocrats succeed in electing a hard leftist (Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Gore) to the White House in 2008, some of your predictions could not only come true, it could be much worse than you can imagine in your fondest dreams.
The most problematic of your predictions are the ones concerning the price of gold and interest rates. Interest rates, the price of gold, and the price of oil sometimes move in tandem, but we have made major progress in solving the riddle of economic movements in the last few years. IF we apply what we know, we can substantially reduce wild economic gyrations. But the Dimocrats are already talking about new taxes at a time of improving economic conditions, rising tax receipts, and a falling deficit. Raising taxes right now will certainly reduce the available funds for capital investment, and will restrict investment, profits, tax receipts, and employment.
During and just after the Carter administration, gold, oil, and interest rates moved in tandem to a very high point, but the stagnation and economic imbalances had been there for many years, dating back to the Go-Go economy of the Kennedy-Johnson years. The only Middle East war threat at this time was the Iraq-Iran conflict, which arose about the time that interest rates/gold/oil started to fall, and which did not contribute much to the maintenance of oil/gold prices.
The recent rise and fall of gold and oil was not driven by interest rates, but was driven initially by the American movement into Iraq. Then commodity funds got into oil and gold in a big way, and artificially drove both commodities higher than they would otherwise have risen. Some of the speculators got burned when the gold and oil prices went down about six months ago. Big speculative bubbles are infrequent events, and it will be a couple of decades before a new generation of fools tries to beat the markets in oil and gold.
Sa’udi Arabia owns all the readily available excess oil capacity in in the world, about three million bbl/day, and they are now moving aggressively to increase that excess capacity. Oil is the Sa’udis’ only weapon, and they will use it to their own best advantage, which sometimes corresponds to American requirements, and sometimes not. The al-Sa’uds’ basic long-term requirement of their oil resources is to keep the price of oil high, but not high enough to attract alternative fuels that would limit the need for Sa’udi oil, meaning somewhere south of $50/bbl.
Politically, the Sa’udis defend the Kingdom with oil, just now against the Iranians. The Irani oil infrastructure is in poor condition, and oil represents by far the largest sector of the Irani economy. The Sunni Sa’udis do not want the Shi’ite Iranis to take over the Middle East, which is the object of the Irani nuclear and missile projects, so the Sa’udis are now cranking up their oil production to lower prices and to impoverish the Iranis, who are not doing very well to begin with, economically speaking.
Lowering world oil prices has advantages and disadvantages, depending on where you stand. Russia has just nationalized great chunks of their oil industry, thereby cutting themselves off from foreign investment for the foreseeable future, just when high oil prices had allowed Russia to start being more assertive in world affairs: increased strategic military capability, increased military R&D for domestic use and foreign sales, increased energy pressure on former Soviet colonies and on Western Europe, for examples. Lower oil prices will certainly restrict Russian income, just at the time they cut themselves off from foreign investment and just when they were making big spending commitments on their economy and their military.
Like Russia, Venezuela has been making big plans for their oil revenues, just as that revenue has started falling like a rock. Venezuela has nationalized much of its oil and industry, so there won’t be any new foreign investment. Venezuela is not maintaining its oil facilities and production is down sharply, hindered by the wholesale replacement of petro technocrats with socialist bureaucrats to run their oil company, PDVSA. Chavez spent billions of dollars on undermining other Latin American countries, on Russian weapons, and on buying Argentine debt after Argentian defaulted on its World Bank obligations. So, how is Chavez going to pay for his adventures now?
On the other side of the coin, the recent high oil prices were a restraint on the American economy, acting just as high interest rates would act. So falling oil prices will substantially improve our economic position. We could help ourselves, with or without alternate fuels, by utilizing oil and gas resources offshore and in Alaska, but the Dimocrats don’t want to do that; whatever are the Dimocrats thinking?
If the Dimocrats succeed in raising tax rates and restricting trade, you may well see rising interest rates, inflation, and other calalmities. This will be a deliberate failure to do what we know works best in the economy.
Perhaps YOU are projecting your individual experience. You are in sync with the majority of the media who simply parrot what is said by all who stand to benefit from perpetually painting a rosy picture… * brokers and fund managers * economists * politicians * bureaucrats * management gurus, like Jack Welsh, and any of the above who have a book to sell, like Thomas L. Friedman.
We are discussing two entirely different media groups here, and I am “in sync” only with the professionals who know their business. If the economists’ concensus is that unemployment is down and things are going well, and the journalists’ concensus is that the economy is doing poorly, whom do you believe? You can read the NYT cover to cover and not realize that the unemployment rate is at near record low levels, tax receipts (after the tax cuts!) are at record high levels, and the deficit is falling rapidly. You surely realize (I hope) that Dimocratic politicians routinely describe the economy as being in terrible shape, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.
You honestly seem to think that the only two sides of any question are Dimocratic or Republican, and you are oblivious to objective truth. You remind me of the Russians. Pravda is the name of the major Russian newspaper, and it is generally supposed that pravda means “truth”. But as Russians use the term, pravda should be translated as “the official word”. Do you see any difference in “truth” and “the official word”? Probably not. But objective truth is available, if you dig for it. There is not a single statement by a Dimocratic politician on domestic matters that I would accept as objective truth. And some Republicans are not much better.
Posted by scorp on Jan 21, 2007 at 10:20 PM
Scorp, again, you have taken up a great deal of space to say absolutely nothing. Every assertion that you have made above has been rebutted dozens of times by myself and at least a dozen others on the ITT board over many threads. Youre description of Pravda above fits you to the proverbial “t.” Unemployment is not at record low levels and the vaunted “recovery” is largely producing low paid service sector jobs, even the white collar, highly educated jobs are being outsourced now. You are a little ape who parrots the Limbaugh Shittohead Party Line and keep those funny anecdotes about the red guards coming ! You can’t even spell DEMOCRATIC and you wouldn’t know objective truth if it bit you on the nose. The net result of all of your GOP proselytizing here is ZERO. Chavez hasn’t undermined one South American government, the CIA has done exactly that for 60 years and now everyone down there is waking up and they are all electing democratic socialist or social democratic governments. Not Soviet style but Scandinavian style “socialism.” All you can do is pull you’re tiny pod in anger. The NY Times is boringly centrist, like most of the Democratic Party, not leftist. The biggest booster of the bullcrap “free trade” nonsense is the Times’ leading columinst, Thomas Friedman, whose grasp of reality is as tenuous as yours. None of the four Dems you list can even be called consistent liberals or progressives, much less “hard core leftists.” No one here accepts you’re terms of reference because they are the standard ultra-Right boilerplate lies.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 22, 2007 at 10:04 AM
Scorp,
For some reason you often refer to the New York Times, if that is who you consider to be a source for economic data, you should question journalists. As for economists, I never follow ANY consensus. Consensus will tell you what the average
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 24, 2007 at 12:27 PM
WTH -
NYT is short-hand for the Old Media, which includes LAT, WaPo, CBS, ABC, and NBC and similar sterling purveyors of fine dishonesty, obfuscation, commission, and ommission. Not to say that New Media does not indulge in the same, but with Old Media, it is constant. You must develop keen senses incorporating knowledge, understanding, wisdom, discrimination, irony, and humor to make any sense out of what is reported to be going on in the world. Subjective ideologues, such as Hardesty, have on tools to deal with any of this.
... I never follow ANY consensus.
Well, that is a foolish statement. Because of your own circumstance as a Blue State, over-regulated, over-taxed, over-governed, over-lawyered struggling businessman, you have concluded that everyone is in your sinking boat, and the ideologues such as Krugman who capitalize on your status become your concensus. Not true. You need to develop keen senses incorporating knowledge, understanding, wisdom, discrimination, irony, and humor to make sense of the world.
I have pointed out that in my opinion BOTH parties are complicit in the selling of American jobs to the lowest bidder.
Not true. The Republicans are much better at “selling of American jobs to the lowest bidder”, in your infelicitous phrase. That is why Red States are more productive than Blue States, why Red State citizens make more money and have more jobs than Blue State citizens, and why the USA is the most productive large economy in the world, and has one of the highest per cap GDP rates in the world. It is not my fault if you do not choose to share our good fortune.
... what is happening to U.S. manufacturing jobs, (I think we agree they are leaving.)
Of course they are leaving. You did not whine when over 90% of the farming jobs left, so why are you whining now? All those farming jobs went to better paying, more productive manufacturing jobs. Now the manufacturing jobs are going to better paying, more productive technical, medical, and financial jobs. The value of what we are manufacturing now is greater than ever before, with fewer people.
In tonnage, 98% of international cargo travels by ship, train, or truck. The other 2% travels by air, but that 2% represents 40% of the value of international shipments. Ships, trains, and trucks come to America full and go back mostly empty. Cargo flights go full from America, and come back mostly empty. You think that is bad, I think that is good.
<blockquote>
Posted by scorp on Jan 24, 2007 at 5:58 PM
Scorp, the great decline in farming jobs occurred over a period of one century. This is both qualitatively and quantitatively different. The idea that this Administration and FedGov in geneal tries to produce the most accurate stats is beyond laughable. In fact, about 40% of ALL international trade is actually inter-company trade. In the case of NAFTA the only serious question is whether it has hurt American business or Mexican agriculture more. “Dimocrats” hey, that’s clever ! Rush sure is a brain, eh ? Most businesses are not overregulated and overtaxed and overgoverned except exceptions like the abortion business in the south. But then Rush didn’t include in the little GOOPER handbook for the midwest branch of the Bible Belt Goobers, did he ? How’s that Weekly Standard sub coming along ? And then there’s the American Spectator, National Review, Michael Weiner Savage, James Dobson and other unimpeachable sources. We are all so impressed with your objectivity and astute scholarship….............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
See Murray Rothbard’s debunking of the Uncle Miltie Friedman fraud. And wasn’t the latest rant of
Nobody Can Lick My Dick Cheney urging us to stay the course in Iraq just so awesome ? It gave
Scorp another week of J/O material to wank to. Scorp, these postings of yours have got to be the most BORING events in world history outside of you’re wedding night. Time for the annual enema, big boy.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 25, 2007 at 9:34 AM
Scorp,
Don
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 25, 2007 at 12:42 PM
Scorp just exploded, WTH. it had been a year since his last bowel movement. His midwestern town is now under a declared state of emergency due to a veritable tsunami of excrement (shit) that has
flooded the town.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 25, 2007 at 1:34 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
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Reader Comments
So what technology would be acceptable to bleeding hearts? NERF batons. Squirt guns? Harsh language?
In a perfect world reason and logic would render technologies such as these a moot point. However the cracked out mental patients stalking our streets are immune to reason and logic.
Most if not all police departments require the officers who will carry TASER’s to be shocked by one. So of the thousands of officers who have received a TASER blast none have died or sustained any injury. Strange for such a “dangerous” weapon.
The common denominator of the around 167 suspects who have died following TASER use?
http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/1224taserlist24-ON.html has the results of 50 autopsies.
of the 50 cases 30 were under the influence of illegal drugs. The remainder were mentally ill or pre existing health conditions. Three were cause unknown. One case was considered illegal and resulted in the jailer being charged with battery with a deadly weapon.
There are other options than “non-lethal” technologies. Dresden, for example.
The fascist empire died of lethal force.
The socialist empires died of corruption and inefficiency and sanity. They were not crazy enough to blow up the world for their absurd political and economic beliefs.
The Jihadists and their projected Caliphate are corrupt, inefficient, and insane. They are quite willing to blow up the world to further their religious vision of Allah’s will.
The West can stop the Jihadists at little cost, just as it could have stopped Lenin in 1918, Hitler in 1938, and Mao in 1946, at little cost. When people like Lenin, Hitler, Mao, and the Jihadists are kind enough to describe in detail that they want to destroy you and your way of life, you are probably safe in believing them. And sooner or later, they must be stopped, or yielded to.
The strangest aspect of the Jihadist threat is it
Tex and Scorp,
Sticking to the topic….. Less than lethal technology is the greatest leap forward in law enforcement in the past hundred years. Beanbag shells, sticky nets, TASER’s, Pepper Spray, Water Cannons, and now the new generation of Pulsed Energy Projectiles and Active Denial System. Lasers and Microwaves are the best leap forward to offer an alternative to simply shooting a suspect with a weapon.
The key word to understand is LESS THAN LETHAL. The technology is based on pain to incapacitate rather than kill. As with any technology death or injury is always a possibility. Considering the tens of thousands of suspects who have been arrested without incident using TASER’s and other LTL technology the 167 deaths are a statistical aberration.
WTH -
TASERing the bastards is not the object, but the means to the object.
The objects are to preserve Lebanese independence, to sever the shaky mutual admiration society between Persian Iran and Arab Syria, to stop the killing in Iraq and allow democracy to grow there, to allow the Palestinians to burn out their passion against each other rather than against Israel, to further development of democracy in the other Arab states, and to prevent Iran from developing nukes and thereby controlling the oil resources of the Middle East.
In this regard, Luttwak has a clarifying article in WSJ that brings vague observations into sharp focus.
http://opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110009521
WTH, knock this crap off. We manufacture more than we ever have, and we do it with fewer people. The stuff that is purchased offshore is low tech items such as textiles and household goods. We have the finest high tech manufacturing capability in the world, certainly including aviation, avionics, electronics, tanks and armored vehicles, and combat shipbuilding. No one comes close to our capability for quality and quantity in these areas. Relax.
Scorp,
Your reaction makes you sound like a part of the management class which is cashing in on options as the labor cuts boost the per share price. I argued for the last ten years before I retired with some of these guys who claimed it was so painful to let people go. They eased their own pain by voting each other great bonuses.
If our manufacturing capabilities were as good as you think they are we would be able to provide body armor and replacements for the HUMVEES, etc.
I live in what used to be the machine tool center of the U.S. I worked at and later was a supplier to an aviation/military parts mfg company from 1960 to 1998. Of over 30 manufacturing companies in 1952, two are still around (barely). All of these companies were involved in WWll war production.
When the experienced machinists were pushed into early retirement their apprentice programs dried up and now there are claims of a shortage. Part of the lack is due to the gap in training, but mostly it is that companies won
WTH -
No options.
The excitement over the body armor and the vehicle armor lasted a few weeks, but when was the last time you heard anyone complain about this particular problem? Problems are for solving, and USA military logistics is extremely good, and getting better.
Regarding your concern about the machinists. I am from the oil patch. A shell-and-tube heat exchanger is a big metal cylinder with a large number of tubes running lengthwise or bent back upon themselves within the exchanger. Each tube passes through a tube sheet and is sealed to the tube sheet, which is a large, thick metal disk with multiple holes drilled in it for the tubes. The tube sheet acts as a seal between the cooling fluid and the cooled fluid.
At one time, a machinist and helper laid out the hole pattern for the tube sheets and individually drllled each hole. No more. Now the tube sheet blanks are mounted in a computer operated milling machine, and one operator/programmer controls several machines. The result is a faster, cheaper, more accurate product. You can certainly see the advantages of such a system. But you mistakenly believe that making products
Scorp, over one third of US manufacturing capacity has disappeared since Bush 2 stole the 2000 Election. We manufacture LESS than we ever have and our huge trade deficit with China proves that. No ,the wealth is NOT filtering down as many conservative commentators like Pat Buchanan and Paul Craig Roberts have noted but the former disparity of 30 to 1 by bosses over workers has now gone to 400 or 500 to 1, astronomical levels not seen since the twenties. Most of the middle class believe that they are getting the shaft because they ARE getting the shaft and none of the bogus stats or phony arguments that you plagiarize directly from Rush Limbaugh can alter that fact. Yes, the poor are getting poorer and many middle class people are getting poorer. Incomes for most people are NOT at a record high and the actual unemployment rate is double the official because they do NOT count whose benefits have run out and people who have stopped looking for work. In the 50s a man could support with ONE income, now most people are struggling with TWO incomes and many more people are working longer hours and two jobs. Scorp, you need to open that bigoted little pea mind of yours and take an honest look at objective reality as my friend Rand used to say. Check your premises because they are all wrong. Until the 1880s corporations were public entities chartered by government for specific, time limited public purposes like railroads, canals, bridges, things too capital intensive for most businesses. Then the disastrous Supreme Court decision near the end of the 19th century, Santa Clara County vs. Southern Pacific RR which created the myth of crporate personhood, which is why scoundrels like the recent CEO who drove Home Depot down retire with 241 MILLION DOLLAR golden parachutea ! He certainly didn’t “earn” it, rather the opposite. See David Korten’s 1995 work When Coroprations Rule The World. For starters. That “Index of economic freedom” gives totalitarian states like Singapore the top ratings, a rather worthless guide, Scorp. Check out the Multinational Monitor and the Corporate Accountability Project. Limited liability means NONresponsibility and is a rather extreme statist intervention in favor of business which the Repugnicant buffoons like Scorp somehow never mention. The earlier historical analogies that Scorp mentions don’t hold because this is a much greater change, now even white collar jobs are being outsourced and there are some great books on this subject, go to amazon and punch in globalization & outsourcing. What is happening with these multilateral treaties is that the Swedens are being dumbdowned to the Spains and Mexico is now losing jobs to Bangladesh in a race to the bottom. This is fact, not any leftist insight. Ignore the panglossian rants of our deluded dittohead, Scorp, he’s never had an original thought in his life. Never.
Texass, these tasers HAVE killed people, that’s the controversy and when they haven’t killed them they have often seriously injured them and they have been used on many people who have not committed violent crimes. If the death is yours or a close family member it is NOT a statistical aberration. WTH, yes it took the treason committed by FDR and George Marshall at Pearl Harbor to get us into the Back Door To War as the brilliant book of that name by Charles Callan Tansill demonstrated at tiresome length. Unconditional surrender was a policy we dropped towards the Japanese, our main enemy, let them keep the Emperor, etc. It was a disastrous policy in Europe which to the Soviet takeover of half of Germany and all of central Europe. The War Morons like you really believe if only we kill many more people the world will be just dandy. We were far better off under the isolationists than six decades of globaloney. And Scorp, Pat Buchanan demonstrated in The Great Betrayal that the US had high tariffs till the 1970s and these tariffs, NOT “free trade” is what created US prosperity. The GOP was staunchly pro-high tariff up to Reagan and when crunch time came Reagan abandoned the free trade mantra and imposed very high tariffs on imported steel and textiles. So much for “globalization.” NAFTA has not benefited MOST of the USA or MOST of Mexico. There are exceptions that prove the general rule. Scorp, you are a stupid loudmouth neoconman who doesn’t even know his own conservative and Republican history. I can understand someone like Nacho Texass whose of recent vintage but a native (?) I’m assuming your not Chinese like bro-in-law (oh, that was a touching story….......sniff, sniff.) The growth in China and India is distinctly not to the advantage of most US workers, now even computer & other professional jobs are being outsourced to both. India still has over a billion people in poverty as does China, both have around 1.3 billion people and in the case of China it is still very much ruled by a hostile Communist Party which is using the economic boom to finance a tremendous buildup in all areas including the miltary and they are making effective use of dual use technology. Krugman was a cheerleader for NAFTA but has wised up and has been devastating in his expose of the Reagan-Bush Voodoo Anti-Economics, first labeled as such by Bush Sr. Since the early 1970s per capita income relative to inflation has stagnated, the booms since then have been artificial Fed financed ones which invariably end in a bust. Krugman is right that there are serious structural problems. Tariffs and various governmental controls during the 20th century mitigated the always abrasive effects of globalization for most people. The winners here as Lewis Lapham recently noted in Harper’s are an increasingly smaller percentage of the US population. Except for utterly useless military equipment like tanks every one of the areas Scorp listed are now going overseas big time. Boeing just lost out to China. This is difference in principle from earlier capitalistic dislocations because we are going to end up being a nation of low paid service workers. Wal-Mart is our biggest industry and Manpower Temp Agency our biggest employer.
Scorp, you need to immediately remove the panglossian rose-tinted shades because you are functioning at zero tunnel vision. If all you can do is recycle Rush’s handouts that he plagiarizes from big biz that is pretty pathetic and fooling no one anymore. Even a rightist dumbass like WTH knows that we are in very deep shit now. Many of the Index on Economic Freedom States that you mention are totalitarian fascist dictatorships like Singapore, Indonesia, etc. You will notice that all of those freedom states have a great deal more government intervention into their economies than even the USA. By the way, the NYTimes and Krugman are not leftists nor are the Clintons. They are all utterly pragmatic centrists. “Leftist” and “socialist” as used by Scorp are simply terms of abuse, they have no relation to the real world and no one that Scorp tags as leftist or socialist advocates nationalization & exclusive central planning. Many left libertarians like myself are concerned about the totalitarian & collectivist entities called corporations, a creature of the state. Scorp never deals with any points made against his position but merely comes back with some irrelevant bullshit about Russia in 1923. Scorp is simply a lowlife redbaiting troll sent by the Feds to disrupt any dissident boards with the lowest type of utterly moronic Reaganite anecdotes which invariably turn out to be false. He gets his behind kicked on every thread but then retreats and comes on a new one to throw some more crap to see if any of it will stick.
Hardesty -
It is not possible that you are so grossly mistaken so often, so you must be a habitual liar in pursuit of your “left libertarian” agenda, whatever that is. I fail to see how socialist dishonesty differs from left libertarian dishonesty.
The Bubba Bubble surplus peaked in 1999, and was in free-fall during the last fifteen months of the Clinton Administration. You don’t have to believe me, any federal surplus-deficit chart shows this clearly. Industrial production and capacity utilization started into free-fall in the middle of Clinton’s last year. Industrial capacity continued to build during this period because of the lead-time of capital construction. The markets, particularly the NASDAQ but also the DOW, were falling in Clinton’s last year.
Falling markets, falling production, and falling budget surplusus are a clear indication of economic instability and a coming recession, and it all happened on Clinton’s watch.
Your first lie above was that “over one third of US manufacturing capacity has disappeared”. This is not true. Capital investment slowed during the Clinton Recession, but there is no discernable loss of capacity during this period, and capacity is now increasing and is higher than it has ever been. (Graph 1, cite.)
Your second lie is that we “manufacture LESS than we ever have and our huge trade deficit with China proves that”. Ummm, no. We manufacture more than we ever have. (Graph 1, cite.) While our purchases in China are doing wonders for the Chinese economy, they are fairly small on the scale of the USA economy.
Your third lie will be that the Federal Reseve is lying and that you know better than the Federal Reserve the status of industrial capacity, production, and utilization. Just like you know better what the unemployment rate is, and the levels of income, despite all evidence to the contrary.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/bulletin/2006/ip06.pdf
I do know better than the Fed because everyone with half a brain knows that the unemployment rate is severely undercounted for the reasons that I listed yesterday. They don’t count people who have given up looking, they do count part-time employment which skewers the figures, they don’t count people whose unemployment benefits have run out and they do count the military which further dishonestly skewers the figures. Interesting that a self-proclaimed “conservative” would rely
on that most statist of institutions the political Federal Reserve System for his “figures.” The way Greenspan politiciized the Reserve for both Dems and Reps is notorious. Being called a “liar” by a world champion liar like you, Scorp, is like being called an adulterer by Liz Taylor. You gotta be kidding ! I KNOW the unemployment rate is AT LEAST double the government “official” figures and I KNOW that per capita income growth adjusted for inflation has been stagnant if not in decline
since 1973. I’ve already rebutted the Clinton depression theory, only the dotcom overhyped NASDAQ crashed in 2000, NOT 1999 and the rest of the economy prospered until the Bush Depression starting after he stole the Presidency in early 2001 and it went on until 2005.
BUSH WAS THE FIRST PRESIDENT SINCE HERBERT HOOVER TO RESIDE OVER NO NET JOB GROWTH DURING HIS FIRST ADMINISTRATION. And, yes, Scorp, YOU know that too.
You’re third paragraph is an outright lie and you got it from Limbaugh’s broadcast yesterday ! I heard it too ! Falling markets and falling production came under BUSH TWO. Now you’re disingenuous remark about “falling budget surpluses” cracks me up ! At least Clinton had
surpluses ! Bush took five trillion in projected surpluses and turned it into five trillion of projected DEFICITS. Let’s see if little Scorp can figure this one out, Clinton-Surpluses, Bush-Deficits.
Yes, we DO manufacture much less than ever before in civilian products, fully 1/3rd of all manufacturing jobs have disappeared under BUSH TWO. ONE THIRD. And that has NOT been the result of automation. It has been a result of US jobs being outsourced overseas. There are any number of books that document this, get off you’re lazy ass on amazon for starters and you can find them. Our trade DEFICIT is the LARGEST ever in history and most of it is with China, so you’re imbecilic statement that China has not hurt the US worker is on a par with the rest of you’re pathetic Limbaughisms. The “wonders” of the Chinese economy is what is bankrupting the USA
without lifting over a BILLION Chinese out of poverty and the extra US cash Red China has now gives them control over the USA. They could shut us tomorrow if they withdrew their funds here, they are the ones subsidizing our multi-trillion dollar debt that BUSH TWO has created, you sick moron and the USA is BANKRUPT. I can refer you to a talk this summer by the Director of the Federal Reserve in St. Louis demonstrating that the USA is bankrupt, I’ll look it again and come back with the exact reference. Scorp, it’s always a pleasure to beat you’re stinky, lying ass and please give my best to bro-in-law, sniff, sniff, sniff. BTW, no one here has advocated “socialism” which is central planning and the nationalization of the means of production. So you take you’re totally and typically inaccurate “leftist” and “socialist” and put them straight up you’re stinky behind. Again, give my sniff, sniff, sniff to bro-in-law, I’m sure he’s not the only one in your sorry little family to see the inside of a lunatic asylum.
Scorp,
WTH, thanks for your response to him but he’s a total braindead asshole. I’ve pointed out his errors with refs up the gazoo and he just keeps repeating the same mindless Limbaughite line.
Blondemike,
This is not a smart/dumb issue. People will always be more apt to think of their own experience as the norm. I just happened to be among those who at the end of my working days got nailed. If I had been untouched I would be harder to convince. A bit of humility was acquired late in life.
It caused me to start spending my retirement savings about the same time the stock market tanked in 2000. My youngest son lost two jobs as a result of globalization and is still working at less than half what he made 12 years ago. Several of my friends had similar experiences across the country.
But other friends (intelligent individuals) who were unaffected often disagree with me when the topic comes up.
Our city (pop. 150,000) was more adversely affected due to all the manufacturing
WTH, I’m not disputing your experience and in fact agree with much of what you say. I’m talking about the transparent intellectual dishonesty of Scorp. Every point he’s made here has been refuted with refs on several other threads. He never deals with the points made and just reiterates his arguable (to put it charitably) assertions. I appreciate your efforts here and it’s a great old American custom to set the public record straight. I’m merely warning you that it won’t in the least affect this guy nor prevent him from spewing out the same rebutted crap again here or on a new thread. I understand the value of personal experience and agree entirely with you about globalization. You bring it down to the micro level and that’s good. Scorp is arguing on the broad macro level and that is where I’ve been going after him. His pollyana panglossian assertions long ago rubbed me the wrong way. There’s a zillion loudmouth jerks like him on rightwing hate talk radio, they all have a right to their views but so do those of us who dissent from them. Here I believe we’re on the same wave length and our responses to Scorp are different enough not to be duplicative though in the end we come to the same conclusion. Again thanks.
Hardesty -
Bankrupt? Gee, maybe we better go file for Chapter 11. Actually, countries do not go bankrupt in the way that individuals or companies do.
The only way a country could go bankrupt would be for the currency to collapse or for the currency to hyperinflate. I have followed left-wind doom-and-gloom pronouncements for a number of years. During this time there have been several cycles of collapse/hyperinflate paranoia, always by people on the far left, including your silly self. But the economy just keeps sailing along, punctuated by nasty little episodes like the Carter Catastrophe and the Bubba Bubble. Carter was ignorant of what to do about the economic problems he created and Clinton was oblivious to the economic and all the other problems he created, so don
WTH
Scorp,
They do go bankrupt though. It takes longer because they can print money and they have a legal monopoly on the use of force. The Paciific Research Institute here in San Francisco is a rightwing, corporate funded think tank. Their studies have to be taken with a whole shaker of salt because they tend to “document” to dovetail with their pre-agreed on ideological conclusions. In a sense the whole debate on the left-right axis is now sterile. Each side reads to reinforce their prejudices.
Red states overall income level is much lower than Blue states. The South still leads in the number of poor states and the Mountain states are behind in terms of income and education with the Blue states, only Colorado excepted which is going from red to blue. In Georgia Atlanta is blue while its suburbs are mostly red. In fact every blue state has red zones and every red state has blue zones. But if the US as a whole goes down financially being in a red state won’t save you. There are no socialist factors or socialist governments in either red or blue states and the overall US economic condition is more dictated by Federal policies than state ones. One state may have more regulation of business than another but those states also have higher educational levels and more prosperous businesses. Much of the job growth in the red states is in lower paying service jobs.
WTH, my wife is in the market so I hope you’re wrong here. I never trusted the stock market but maybe I’m too conservative financially.
WTH
There was no Carter “catastrophe” a recession yes, which lengthened into a three year Reagan Depression. Ergo for Clinton, a brief NASDAQ bubble burst because dotcom overvaluation which lengthened into a four Bush Depression AS THE FIRST PRESIDENT SINCE HERBERT HOOVER WITH NO NET JOB GROWTH DURING HIS FIRST TERM. Most Americans are NOT heavily invested but lightly invested and many Americans lost a total of three trillion in assets during Bush 2’s stock
market & depression crash. Who are you trying to kid with that Limbaugh Lite Pollyanna bullshit ????????????? The Chinese only keep here until they think the eurodollar is better as Venezuela is doing now. The dollar also gone way down under Bush 2. Do you ever even look
at a newspaper, even the WSJ in the NONeditorial pages are quite good. Excuse me, Scorp, but ALL the East Asian Tiger States plus China have MUCH MORE STATE INTERVENTION IN THE ECONOMY than even we do and we have quite a bit. Read Alice Amsden’s work on South Korea, a centrally planned state capitalist economy that forbade South Korean companies from divestment under penalty of death. The people in low state taxes are NOT more prosperous than people in high tax so-called blue states. The South, which is 90% of the so-called red states, have far lower per capita average income and educational levels than the high tax bluev states. Most of those jobs invented here are now being shipped abroad, see Lou Dobbs, conservative commentator on CNN. See Kevin Phillips, a longtime conservative author. The Census Bureau will confirm the stats on blue and red states incomes. Nice of you to offer WTH advice but I don’t think he needs yours. You do not have an especially good track record.
Scorp,
I remember the Carter years very well.
I had been investing for some time already and in the 60s there was a period called
WTH, again we’re all in you’re debt here for you’re perceptive comments. At least you are correcting the record. Thanks.
WTH
Scorp, who are you trying to kid with your falsified history ? “17 years” ! ? The 1973 recession lasted till 1976, GOP Administration. The Carter recession DIDN’T START TILL 1979, 1979-1980. Math computes this as FIVE YEARS, NOT SEVENTEEN. Then the first three years of Reagan’s term we were in the WORST DEPRESSION since the 1930s. Reagan did curtail inflation finally by 1984 by the old fashioned method of a depression. Then in Reagan’s last year 1988 the bubble burst again and a recession started which turned into the Bush 1 Depression of late 1990-early 1993. There was double digit unemployment here in California, Alabama, Michigan and Pennsylvania and possibly in other states too. Crashes are not infrequent things, in fact under Reagan we had the major Black Monday Stock Market Crash in October, 1987. Market went down over 500 points, the worst drop ever since the Great Depression and it was YEARS rebounding. Spare us your Rush Limbaugh Faked GOP Shit smells Chanel No. 5 line, no one is buying it.
Scorp,
WTH -
<blockquote>Recessions, bubbles, tax breaks are short term events and financial tactics
Scorp,
Take a look at your own comments:
WTH -
Well, I certainly addressed your stated concerns. Now you say that this was not what you are talking about?
Naah. Our productivity is making us invulnerable. The Chinese need our dollars to stabilize and improve their economy. Now, how would our “economic condition” be affected if we kept 1.3 billion Chinese and 1.3 billion Muslims in poverty, poor, undernourished, and unhappy, while raising prices for everything we buy? There are lots of things worse than prosperity.
I think this is your real concern:
This could be a real concern for a Blue State resident, over taxed, over regulated, over lawyered, and over seen by a big state government. Fortunately, it is not true for most people. This is my statement to Loony Booty on another thread:
You are projecting your individual circumstance onto the nation at large, and big chunks of the left media are glad to capitalize on your fears. I am amazed that so many people allow themselves to be manipulated by the agenda-driven, nonsensical drivel of the NYT.
Bad news sells, and there is no shortage of manufacturing capacity for bad news.
Dream on, Scorp
I predict:
CORRECTION (The edit won’t work with my OS.)
WTH -
Sheesh! You are taking counsel of you fears, and your fears won. You are a glutton for punishment.
If the Dimocrats succeed in electing a hard leftist (Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Gore) to the White House in 2008, some of your predictions could not only come true, it could be much worse than you can imagine in your fondest dreams.
The most problematic of your predictions are the ones concerning the price of gold and interest rates. Interest rates, the price of gold, and the price of oil sometimes move in tandem, but we have made major progress in solving the riddle of economic movements in the last few years. IF we apply what we know, we can substantially reduce wild economic gyrations. But the Dimocrats are already talking about new taxes at a time of improving economic conditions, rising tax receipts, and a falling deficit. Raising taxes right now will certainly reduce the available funds for capital investment, and will restrict investment, profits, tax receipts, and employment.
During and just after the Carter administration, gold, oil, and interest rates moved in tandem to a very high point, but the stagnation and economic imbalances had been there for many years, dating back to the Go-Go economy of the Kennedy-Johnson years. The only Middle East war threat at this time was the Iraq-Iran conflict, which arose about the time that interest rates/gold/oil started to fall, and which did not contribute much to the maintenance of oil/gold prices.
The recent rise and fall of gold and oil was not driven by interest rates, but was driven initially by the American movement into Iraq. Then commodity funds got into oil and gold in a big way, and artificially drove both commodities higher than they would otherwise have risen. Some of the speculators got burned when the gold and oil prices went down about six months ago. Big speculative bubbles are infrequent events, and it will be a couple of decades before a new generation of fools tries to beat the markets in oil and gold.
Sa’udi Arabia owns all the readily available excess oil capacity in in the world, about three million bbl/day, and they are now moving aggressively to increase that excess capacity. Oil is the Sa’udis’ only weapon, and they will use it to their own best advantage, which sometimes corresponds to American requirements, and sometimes not. The al-Sa’uds’ basic long-term requirement of their oil resources is to keep the price of oil high, but not high enough to attract alternative fuels that would limit the need for Sa’udi oil, meaning somewhere south of $50/bbl.
Politically, the Sa’udis defend the Kingdom with oil, just now against the Iranians. The Irani oil infrastructure is in poor condition, and oil represents by far the largest sector of the Irani economy. The Sunni Sa’udis do not want the Shi’ite Iranis to take over the Middle East, which is the object of the Irani nuclear and missile projects, so the Sa’udis are now cranking up their oil production to lower prices and to impoverish the Iranis, who are not doing very well to begin with, economically speaking.
Lowering world oil prices has advantages and disadvantages, depending on where you stand. Russia has just nationalized great chunks of their oil industry, thereby cutting themselves off from foreign investment for the foreseeable future, just when high oil prices had allowed Russia to start being more assertive in world affairs: increased strategic military capability, increased military R&D for domestic use and foreign sales, increased energy pressure on former Soviet colonies and on Western Europe, for examples. Lower oil prices will certainly restrict Russian income, just at the time they cut themselves off from foreign investment and just when they were making big spending commitments on their economy and their military.
Like Russia, Venezuela has been making big plans for their oil revenues, just as that revenue has started falling like a rock. Venezuela has nationalized much of its oil and industry, so there won’t be any new foreign investment. Venezuela is not maintaining its oil facilities and production is down sharply, hindered by the wholesale replacement of petro technocrats with socialist bureaucrats to run their oil company, PDVSA. Chavez spent billions of dollars on undermining other Latin American countries, on Russian weapons, and on buying Argentine debt after Argentian defaulted on its World Bank obligations. So, how is Chavez going to pay for his adventures now?
On the other side of the coin, the recent high oil prices were a restraint on the American economy, acting just as high interest rates would act. So falling oil prices will substantially improve our economic position. We could help ourselves, with or without alternate fuels, by utilizing oil and gas resources offshore and in Alaska, but the Dimocrats don’t want to do that; whatever are the Dimocrats thinking?
If the Dimocrats succeed in raising tax rates and restricting trade, you may well see rising interest rates, inflation, and other calalmities. This will be a deliberate failure to do what we know works best in the economy.
We are discussing two entirely different media groups here, and I am “in sync” only with the professionals who know their business. If the economists’ concensus is that unemployment is down and things are going well, and the journalists’ concensus is that the economy is doing poorly, whom do you believe? You can read the NYT cover to cover and not realize that the unemployment rate is at near record low levels, tax receipts (after the tax cuts!) are at record high levels, and the deficit is falling rapidly. You surely realize (I hope) that Dimocratic politicians routinely describe the economy as being in terrible shape, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.
You honestly seem to think that the only two sides of any question are Dimocratic or Republican, and you are oblivious to objective truth. You remind me of the Russians. Pravda is the name of the major Russian newspaper, and it is generally supposed that pravda means “truth”. But as Russians use the term, pravda should be translated as “the official word”. Do you see any difference in “truth” and “the official word”? Probably not. But objective truth is available, if you dig for it. There is not a single statement by a Dimocratic politician on domestic matters that I would accept as objective truth. And some Republicans are not much better.
Scorp, again, you have taken up a great deal of space to say absolutely nothing. Every assertion that you have made above has been rebutted dozens of times by myself and at least a dozen others on the ITT board over many threads. Youre description of Pravda above fits you to the proverbial “t.” Unemployment is not at record low levels and the vaunted “recovery” is largely producing low paid service sector jobs, even the white collar, highly educated jobs are being outsourced now. You are a little ape who parrots the Limbaugh Shittohead Party Line and keep those funny anecdotes about the red guards coming ! You can’t even spell DEMOCRATIC and you wouldn’t know objective truth if it bit you on the nose. The net result of all of your GOP proselytizing here is ZERO. Chavez hasn’t undermined one South American government, the CIA has done exactly that for 60 years and now everyone down there is waking up and they are all electing democratic socialist or social democratic governments. Not Soviet style but Scandinavian style “socialism.” All you can do is pull you’re tiny pod in anger. The NY Times is boringly centrist, like most of the Democratic Party, not leftist. The biggest booster of the bullcrap “free trade” nonsense is the Times’ leading columinst, Thomas Friedman, whose grasp of reality is as tenuous as yours. None of the four Dems you list can even be called consistent liberals or progressives, much less “hard core leftists.” No one here accepts you’re terms of reference because they are the standard ultra-Right boilerplate lies.
Scorp,
For some reason you often refer to the New York Times, if that is who you consider to be a source for economic data, you should question journalists. As for economists, I never follow ANY consensus. Consensus will tell you what the average
WTH -
NYT is short-hand for the Old Media, which includes LAT, WaPo, CBS, ABC, and NBC and similar sterling purveyors of fine dishonesty, obfuscation, commission, and ommission. Not to say that New Media does not indulge in the same, but with Old Media, it is constant. You must develop keen senses incorporating knowledge, understanding, wisdom, discrimination, irony, and humor to make any sense out of what is reported to be going on in the world. Subjective ideologues, such as Hardesty, have on tools to deal with any of this.
Well, that is a foolish statement. Because of your own circumstance as a Blue State, over-regulated, over-taxed, over-governed, over-lawyered struggling businessman, you have concluded that everyone is in your sinking boat, and the ideologues such as Krugman who capitalize on your status become your concensus. Not true. You need to develop keen senses incorporating knowledge, understanding, wisdom, discrimination, irony, and humor to make sense of the world.
Not true. The Republicans are much better at “selling of American jobs to the lowest bidder”, in your infelicitous phrase. That is why Red States are more productive than Blue States, why Red State citizens make more money and have more jobs than Blue State citizens, and why the USA is the most productive large economy in the world, and has one of the highest per cap GDP rates in the world. It is not my fault if you do not choose to share our good fortune.
Of course they are leaving. You did not whine when over 90% of the farming jobs left, so why are you whining now? All those farming jobs went to better paying, more productive manufacturing jobs. Now the manufacturing jobs are going to better paying, more productive technical, medical, and financial jobs. The value of what we are manufacturing now is greater than ever before, with fewer people.
In tonnage, 98% of international cargo travels by ship, train, or truck. The other 2% travels by air, but that 2% represents 40% of the value of international shipments. Ships, trains, and trucks come to America full and go back mostly empty. Cargo flights go full from America, and come back mostly empty. You think that is bad, I think that is good.
<blockquote>
Scorp, the great decline in farming jobs occurred over a period of one century. This is both qualitatively and quantitatively different. The idea that this Administration and FedGov in geneal tries to produce the most accurate stats is beyond laughable. In fact, about 40% of ALL international trade is actually inter-company trade. In the case of NAFTA the only serious question is whether it has hurt American business or Mexican agriculture more. “Dimocrats” hey, that’s clever ! Rush sure is a brain, eh ? Most businesses are not overregulated and overtaxed and overgoverned except exceptions like the abortion business in the south. But then Rush didn’t include in the little GOOPER handbook for the midwest branch of the Bible Belt Goobers, did he ? How’s that Weekly Standard sub coming along ? And then there’s the American Spectator, National Review, Michael Weiner Savage, James Dobson and other unimpeachable sources. We are all so impressed with your objectivity and astute scholarship….............zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
See Murray Rothbard’s debunking of the Uncle Miltie Friedman fraud. And wasn’t the latest rant of
Nobody Can Lick My Dick Cheney urging us to stay the course in Iraq just so awesome ? It gave
Scorp another week of J/O material to wank to. Scorp, these postings of yours have got to be the most BORING events in world history outside of you’re wedding night. Time for the annual enema, big boy.
Scorp,
Don
Scorp just exploded, WTH. it had been a year since his last bowel movement. His midwestern town is now under a declared state of emergency due to a veritable tsunami of excrement (shit) that has
flooded the town.
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