Remember oil? That thing we didn’t go to war in Iraq for? Now with his war under attack, even President George W. Bush has gone public, telling reporters last August, “[a] failed Iraq … would give the terrorists and extremists an additional tool besides safe haven, and that is revenues from oil sales.” Of course, Bush not only wants to keep… return to article
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Reader Comments (163)What impresses me about this article is not the oil angle which we could all take for granted but the 150 companies granted over $50 billion in mostly no bid contracts. The $50 billion figure is big money. I would estimate that over a third of the world’s nearly 200 sovereign nations don’t have an annual GDP totalling $50 billion. As time goes on the figure increases. This figure also exceeds Iraqi oil revenues and GDP of late I’m sure. All this being the case, it is easy to see how corporate globalization has created, structured, staffed, and also determined the distribution of the benefits of the “new Iraqi economy” through the US military intervention and long term occupation. A new division of labor in the increasingly integrated middle east will involve Saudi financing, some other Arab State manufacturing investment, Israeli technology (if the peace process can get going again in which Bush seems wholly uninterested), cheap Arab labor, and US Markets. Here the US hopes to outwardly diversify the increasingly concentrated consumer goods manufacturing investment in China. Indeed, the rate of manufacturing FDI was growing faster than oil investment despite record gas prices. The economic basis of the war is not just about a valuable and scarce resource but the long term structuring of global capitalism. Here is where the real value of Juhasz’s analysis comes into play. It’s not just about the profits of one sector of the US economy. It’s about the historic laws of motion of capital in the concentration of the capitalist economy on a global scale in order to insure continued profitability and the continued deepening of global capitalist relations of production.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 15, 2007 at 2:20 PM “Remember oil? That thing we didn’t go to war in Iraq for?”
Not exactly a straw man in the truest sense, but also not worth arguing about. Of course the Middle East is about oil — it has been for at least a century.
But…
It is crucial to our economy and our very existence. (Whether it should be or must be is a different issue.) People will fight over water or wheat, corn, whatever is essential to their survival. If not nation against nation, then as individuals.I would not be surprised to see globalization’s threat to individual jobs erupt into far more violence than we’ve seen so far.
If we can see the kind of fighting we have now due merely to greed, think of the return to basic instinct when you or your family is truly cold and hungry, or even plunging down the economic ladder.
The world economists have elevated corporate leaders to the status which used to be accorded movie stars and outstanding sports figures. It is a short step for CEOs to begin to believe their own press coverage. The top administration jobs have been dominated by “successful” CEOs from Bush on down.
Knowing how to make money does not a statesman or military genius make.
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 15, 2007 at 6:03 PM If oil was the only reason to have a presence in SouthWest Asia as the article insinuates. I would offer Mexico and Canda as the logical alternative.
With a combined proven reserves of almost 200 billion barrels, combined with the US’s proven reserves of 21.9 billion barrels Iraq would pale into a greasy spot on the garage floor. A common border, access to pipelines, better quality oil, and elimination of tankers are the benefits.
North American crude is “light sweet crude” which is superior in both gasoline production as well as crackability. Middle Eastern oil is “heavy crude” which costs almost double in terms of delivery as well as refining.
Any logical “empire” would have already consolidated Mexico and Canada into its fold and ignored the troubled SouthWestern Asia’s oil fields. Our protection of the Gulf is for the benefit of Europe and Japan. Both rely almost exclusively on Gulf crude.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 15, 2007 at 11:58 PM Any logical “empire” would have already consolidated Mexico and Canada into its fold ...
Tex, they have. It’s called free trade.
When ‘tar sands’ are included Canada has the second largest oil reserves in the world.Middle Eastern oil is “heavy crude” ...
Hmm ... they have (or had) light sweet crude too. But it may be that most of the good stuff has already been pumped and they are left with mostly heavy crude now. Except maybe in Iraq?
But it’s all oil.If oil was the only reason to have a presence in SouthWest Asia as the article insinuates.
Tex, while oil, as a spoil of war, was the focus of the article, I don’t think that oil was the only reason for the war. There were and are many reasons put forward for this war. None of them good.
Our protection of the Gulf is for the benefit of Europe and Japan.
And for the protection and benefit of Israel ...
“There’s nothing more deep than recognizing Israel’s right to exist. That’s the most deep thought of all. ... I can’t think of anything more deep than that right.”
—George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002
“But now that I’m on Iran, the threat to Iran, of course—(applause)—the threat from Iran is, of course, their stated objective to destroy our strong ally Israel. That’s a threat, a serious threat. It’s a threat to world peace; it’s a threat, in essence, to a strong alliance. I made it clear, I’ll make it clear again, that we will use military might to protect our ally, Israel, and—(applause)”
—George W. Bush, Cleveland, Ohio, March 20, 2006And always remember ...
“I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we’re really talking about peace.”
—George W. Bush, June 18, 2002So, please understand that when we talk about oil, we are not talking about oil. Really.
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 16, 2007 at 12:45 AM Oil is measured by specific gravity and sulfur content. The Persian Gulf’s oilfields are slightly varied but the bulk is heavy and high in sulfur. To the average “man on the street” oil is oil. But in refining the higher specific gravity and lower sulfur content of light sweet crude mean a greater percentage of volatile products ( Gasoline), and easier refining to meet EPA sulfur standards.
Tar sands are Bitumen, sand, clay, and water. While technically not crude oil they can be economically processed into gasoline with higher crude oil prices. It is used as asphalt for roads without any modification.
“War is a matter of vital importance to the State; the province of life or death; the road to survival or ruin.”
Once again Israel gets smacked around for no real reason…...Strange.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 16, 2007 at 4:04 AM David and Tex,
I would agree oil was/is not the only reason for the war, but oil production and usage are currently so close that the increasing needs by emerging nations will make it even more important a factor for years or decades. Refining is the bottle neck at present.
As for other reasons… “None of them good.” I guess it depends on whose ox it is and how far out you look.
There is a continuing push from the White House to integrate Canada, U.S. and Mexico at least economically. Anything more would likely meet with resistance from citizens in each country. This is IMO the nose of the camel with unification the underlying goal. Watch for those “trade agreements” which get no vote by the people or our “representatives” (who give away theiir responsibility).
David, are lobbyists as influential in Canada are they have become here?
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 16, 2007 at 3:18 PM Once again Israel gets smacked around for no real reason…...Strange.
Tex, I hardly smacked Israel around. You brought up the countries you said the USA benefits by it’s protection in the Middle East and I named another country that receives the benefits of the protection you mentioned. And I supplied quotes from President Bush to support my statement.
Congressman Ron Paul sees an Escalation in the Middle East and he mentions Israel.
What’s so strange?
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 16, 2007 at 4:20 PM Israel SHOULD be smacked around and HARD. They have not only dispossessed over three million Palestinians since 1947 and killed probably 300,000 Palestinians but they were behind both Gulf War Crimes by both criminal Bushes. AIPAC controls Congres, they can get 95 Senators and 400 Representatives to support anything Israel does any day of the week. It was not big oil advocating this as well as the forthcoming escalation into Iran & Syria but shitty little Israel. I have never seen one small state cause so much mayhem, it needs to be totally replaced by a democratic secular state because when you add the Occupied Territories to the 25% Arab population inside Israel you at the least get a 50-50 Arab/Jewish split if not a slight Arab majority. What would the Jews here think if we called the US a Christian or Gentile State because Jews are only 2% or less ? It is no less racist to Israel a Jewish state. Oil was NEVER the reason for the Gulf Criminal Massacres mislabeled “wars.” The oil companies have been scapegoated by the Israel Lobby from the beginning. Bush’s utterly moronic statement that there is nothing “deeper” (?) than Israel’s right to exist is beyond belief. What about the Palestinians’ right to exist ? And frankly what person or group has any “right to exist” when you get down to basics ? Bush is another Christian Zionist nut. The ONLY good thing the UN ever did was the 1975 Zionism Is Racism Resolution, the only truthful statement to come out of the Disunited Nations. Later Dan Quayle bribed enough countries to overturn that but it remains factually true. Chicago, thanks for conceding on all points on the Waiters thread as I just noted over there. Ron Paul is the greatest person in Congress on ALL issues both foreign and domestic. There’s a rumor that he is Ayn Rand’s child via Sinclair Lewis but I have NOT been able to verify that. Carry on, folks, I’ll be back for further corrections as needed. And if some of you could give some fresh voices a chance here that would be in nice. As they say in the Army give someone else a chance at the pot.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 16, 2007 at 6:50 PM I was under the impression we were speaking of the Persian Gulf? Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, UAE? Israel borders the Mediterrean almost 1500 miles away.
Iran has a loud bark but lacks any means of attacking Israel. The SCUD variants lack the range. While North Korea has sold the technology for its ICBM to Iran, its missle has serious problems and Iran lacks the know how to fix it. The Iranian Air Force is a joke and without tanker support cannot reach Israeli airspace. So your thesis David is baseless and illogical. (Quotes aside)
Our presence in the Persian Gulf is for the benefit of Europe and Japan. Our Navy insures a free flow of oil for our allies as it has done for over twenty years.
If the defense of Israel was the primary reason for war we would have invaded Syria or Jordan.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 16, 2007 at 10:08 PM Whattheheck, lobbyists are thick on the ground here too but don’t wield quite as much power as they do in the USA. Recently Canada has introduced legislation on the federal and provincial level to keep the lobby groups on a short leash. It’s important to make sure that lobbying and the influence the various groups have doesn’t become influence peddling which is a crime under Canada’s Criminal Code.
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 16, 2007 at 10:10 PM Not true, Tex. Israel always regarded Iraq as her most dangerous enemy because they were the only Arab army that fought in the 1948 outside of the Jordan Legion and Israel bombed an Iraqi nuclear power in 1981 and the Israeli Lobby & their Amen Corner as Buchanan aptly termed it were the biggest movers & shakers for the Iraq war both times under both Bushes. In fact Netanyahu and Cheney & several neocons signed a petition to Clinton in 1996 urging him to overthrow Saddam Hussein. Clinton was content to starve millions of Iraqis with sanctions instead. There was NEVER any danger of Hussein cutting off the oil to Europe and Japan, au contraire, he was desperately trying to get the sanctions lifted SO HE COULD SELL IT. As usual, Tex, you got everything assbackwards.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 16, 2007 at 10:21 PM Tex, we were talking about the Middle East until you mentioned Europe and Japan. Israel is in the Middle East and relevant to the discussion in my opinion. I wasn’t aware I presented a thesis. Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain what it was?
I never said defense of Israel was the primary reason for war. But it is one of the reasons as the rhetoric makes clear. A hunt for weapons of mass destruction and a liberation in the name of Iraqi freedom were a few other reasons put forward to justify the war. Neither has been realized.
As for invading Syria or Jordan; it may yet happen. Just the other night President Bush was rattling his sabre at Syria and Iran while he talked about his new and improved plans for the war in Iraq.
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 16, 2007 at 10:36 PM David, don’t be naive. Israel’s dirty work is always our first priority and the big enchilada is not Syria but Iran, that has been the main neocon target all along, Iraq was just a means to that end. Bush knew that Iraq did NOT have WMD’s which is why he felt free to invade, North Korea wisely has them so we’re not invading. We supported Saddam during the worst excesses under Reagan as well as his invasion of Iran. The USA has never given a fiddler’s fart about freedom or liberation for anyone. Even Texass knows that we liberated a third of Mexico from Mexico.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 17, 2007 at 12:51 AM “Spoils of War” aside.
A good article. Informative and well written.
Rip off reconstruction contracts and spOILs of war.
The invasion of the corporations as well as the miltary.——————————
(Mike, I am pleased you seem to agree with what I said ... except as noted by your statement about first priority. Exactly how do you think I was being naive if this is what you were referring to? Or maybe everything I said was naive? Clarification please.)
Talking about the why of an ongoing war is fine but right now I am concerned about the why and when of the next war. The never ended warre of all against all. And how to stop it if possible.
The same lame rhetoric that was used to create a threat before the attack on Iraq is now being used again with Iran and lately with greater frequency and intensity. There are mainstream articles with headlines like Israel plans nuclear strike on Iran, combined with the aforementioned sabre rattling, recent troop movements and Congressman Ron Paul saying;
While the president’s announcement that an additional 20,000 troops would be sent to Iraq dominated the headlines last week, the real story was the president’s sharp rhetoric towards Iran and Syria. And recent moves by the administration only serve to confirm the likelihood of a wider conflict in the Middle East.
The president stated last week that, “Succeeding in Iraq also requires defending its territorial integrity- and stabilizing the region in the face of the extremist challenge. This begins with addressing Iran and Syria.” He also announced the deployment of an additional aircraft carrier battle group to the Persian Gulf, and the deployment of Patriot air missile defense systems to countries in the Middle East. Meanwhile, US troops stormed the Iranian consulate in Iraq and detained several Iranian diplomats. Taken together, the message was clear: the administration intends to move the US closer to a dangerous and ill-advised conflict with Iran.
As I said last week on the House floor, speculation in Washington focuses on when, not if, either Israel or the U.S. will bomb Iran—possibly with nuclear weapons. The accusation sounds very familiar: namely, that Iran possesses weapons of mass destruction. Iran has never been found in violation of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and our own Central Intelligence Agency says Iran is more than ten years away from producing any kind of nuclear weapon. Yet we are told we must act immediately while we still can!
Despite the efforts of people like Congressman Ron Paul, it sure looks (using the duck rule) like the warmongers are spoiling for a new and improved and bigger and better war with Iran and I can’t help but fear it may not be long before they begin liberating Iranians of their lives.
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 17, 2007 at 4:38 AM Actually David the article is specific to the Persian Gulf. The other countries are mentioned in passing as to the Free Trade Agreements proposed.
The cut-off of oil would occur with Iran closing the Straits of Hormuz as was attempted in 1981 during the Iran-Iraq war. The Navy is in the Gulf to prevent this scenario from occuring.
Iraq picked fights with every neighbor at least once. Israel would have considered the defunct Iraqi dictatorship a threat as any reasonable government would. But the greatest threat has always been Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. As none of these countries have oil reserves in any great quanitity and none are located in the Persian Gulf, they play no real part in this discussion.
The inclusion of Israel as a reason for our involvement in the Persian Gulf is a knee jerk leftist reaction to any situation involving the US military. Israel has an efficient modern military and is quite capable of defending herself.
The incident at the Al Tuwaitha reactor where Israeli F-15’s and F-16’s destroyed a French built reactor was done on a Sunday and also before nuclear fuel was loaded. The incident resulted in 10 Iraqi soldiers being killed along with one French engineer.
War is the last option for dealing with Iran, Syria, North Korea and every other insane demagogue running a country. Iraq was invaded under the same inteliigence reports provided to Congress and the previous administration. I could provide numerous quotes from Nancy Pelosi, Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry and many other “anti-war” Democrats. All condemming Saddam and promising miltary response.
After the invasion and finding of hundreds of prohibited munitions, missles, and chemical precusors it has become fashionable to dispute the reasons for war for political reasons. Saddam was the weapon of mass destruction. German chemicals, French factories, Russian munitions, and Saddam were not an acceptable combination.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 17, 2007 at 6:03 AM Spoils of War
Oil, the U.S.-Middle East Free Trade Area and the Bush AgendaTitle and subtitle. Middle East.
Tex, other than that I could agree with some of what you just said but disagree with your statement ...
As none of these countries have oil reserves in any great quanitity and none are located in the Persian Gulf, they play no real part in this discussion.
... when it is quite obvious they are relevant to this discussion as they are all close neighbours.
How would you like a war next door to you?
Please give me your knee jerk reaction.
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 17, 2007 at 6:08 AM German chemicals, French factories, Russian munitions, and Saddam were not an acceptable combination.
Tex, you forgot the United States of America and the blood on it’s hands.
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 17, 2007 at 6:31 AM Pre-war, this represented the only imminent threat to business as usual for the U.S. kleptocracy:
_________
“Planning to secure Iraq’s oil for U.S. companies began on the tenth day of the Bush presidency, when Vice President Dick Cheney established the National Energy Policy Development Group—widely referred to as “Cheney’s Energy Task Force.” It produced two lists, titled “Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts as of 5 March 2001,” which named more than 60 companies from some 30 countries with contracts for oil and gas projects across Iraq—none of which were with American firms. However, because sanctions were imposed on Iraq at this time, none of the contracts could come into force. If the sanctions were removed—which was becoming increasingly likely as public opinion turned against the sanctions and Hussein remained in power—the contracts would go to all of those foreign oil companies and the U.S. oil industry would be shut out.”
___________And the trade would have been in euros.
Posted by robert beal on Jan 17, 2007 at 8:29 AM We totally subsidize Israel to the annual tune of at least five billion dollars and unlike every other foreign aid recipient we do not make Israel account for one penny, they only have a modern economy, much less a modern army, due to the US taxpayer, over a quarter of a trillion since 1948. You give me that money and I’ll create an army too. Iran never attempted to cut off the oil and neither did Iraq, the US Navy is there as a surrogate of Israel doing Israel’s dirty work, as usual. Texass, Saddam was NOT a weapon of mass destruction, Bush IS. And they discovered NO WMD’s which is a salient point that liars like you habitually evade. BTW, they never found “hundreds” of WMD’s as
Hans Blix told them they wouldn’t and as Scott Ritter has verified and he has forgotten more about the subject of WMD’s in Iraq than the rest of us will ever know. Nor did Iraq pick fights with EVERY neighbor, they did with TWO neighbors with FULL US support. In 1980 they invaded Iran fully supported by Carter and then Reagan. In 1991 they invaded Kuwait AFTER being given the green light to do so by the US Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie. Kuwait was never a real nation, it
was always part of Iraq and it was arbitrarily created by the UK in 1921 to steal Iraq’s oil. The 200,000 member Al Sabah Family runs it as a family preserve, 80% of the population are non-Kuwaitis and there is no real Kuwaiti “nation.” All sorts of bogus atrocity stories were circulated about “stolen baby incubators” and so forth over here and they were all lies, see Harper’s publisher John D. MacArthur’s book on this. BTW, Beal, there is no evidence that Hussein was going to abandon the dollar, that was a last ditch lie promulgated by the neocons to try to give some justification for the unjustifiable. Our support of Israel is the sole reason for BOTH Gulf Massacres by both Bushes. Hussein got just as much dual use technology from the USA as he did those other countries that you mention, Texass. Even a friggin Tacocon should be able to figure this one out.
David, you’re comebacks to Texass’s lying neocon agit-prop are friggin weak, man. You need to study the dynamics of the US-Israel relationship, Alfred M. Lilienthal’s massive The Zionist Connection is a good start and I can recommend at least a dozen books on this subject.
When Saddam committed his worst crimes in the 70s and 80s they were against Communists and leftists in Iraq with full US Govt support. How come you pro-war liars NEVER mention that ?????
And the Reagan Admin claimed in 1988 that Iran, NOT Iraq, gassed the Kurds and the US Army War
College study agreed with that. So, Texass, WHEN was the US Government lying ???????
Posted by blondemike on Jan 17, 2007 at 6:08 PM One thing stands out - the people of Iran are NOT Arabs. They are Muslims. All Muslims are NOT Arabs. Think Indonesia - the most populous Muslim country in the world.
Posted by frank67 on Jan 17, 2007 at 8:20 PM Hardesty, you have been running amok with numbers ever since you went off your meds. Actually, the true figure of US aid to Israel since 1948 is about $105 billion, much less than the $250,000 billion you wrongly claimed. Much of this came back to the US in weapons and other purchases. The loans received by Israel were all repaid. Israel has good credit and its state bonds have a high international rating by Standard and Poors.
Israeli GDP has been growing at a rate of about 4% annually over the past 15 years or so. High tech investment and US FDI is more responsible for this growth than aid. As I’ve pointed out before Israel has 90 domestic firms that trade on the NASDEQ exclusively whose market cap is equal to that of all 660 Isreali firms that trade only on the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange (TASE). Israel’s economy is highly globalized. That would esplain its economic success and modernization more than aid which created little internal development. This should be obvious to a guy like yourself. And I thought you were a libertarian.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 17, 2007 at 8:22 PM Chicago, you are way off, it’s at least 250 billion from 1948, much more 105 billion from 1967 on. Averaging 5 billion a year in total military and economic aid but that doesn’t begin to count the many supplemetary monies not allocated in the regular foreign aid budget. 250 billion is indeed a quarter of a trillion. At the rate of at least 5 billion a year going to Israle the figure you give of 105 billion would only be for the 1986-2007 period, 21 years. Israel’s economy is highly statist, they are what Rand called pull peddlers. They have moved away from orthodox socialism since 1977 but the state is still entertwined in every aspect of the economy, more the fascist-national socialist brand of collectivism and this is all made possible by US subsidies, public and private. No, Israel is not a libertarian’s delight. Israel’s credit rating a few years ago matched that of Zaire and Bangladesh as Chomsky noted. Any improvement since then is pure manipulate the books puffery, sort of like their numbers games on WW2. None of the Israeli money is repaid back, that’s another lie and Congress has repeatedly waived repayment even for weapons. Israel’s is the ultimate parasite economy. Their nuke materials were stolen from here and France by local traitors a la the Pollards. Can give you refs here too. Anything we’d ever sell them would be at substantial discount with no interest and mostly we just GIVE it to them, unlike everyone else in the world. Chicago, still trying to lie for the tribe, eh ? Like the old New Republic, it was Uncle Joe Stalin, now it’s Bibi. You’re still a collectivist liar at the end of the day. Frank, you’re correct but to these ignorant bastards they are all the same.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 17, 2007 at 9:11 PM David
Actually we have a low grade war in Northern Mexico between drug cartels and the federales. Heavy machine gun fire and mortars can be heard clearly at night. The Mexican Army has split into camps and some protect drug runners when they try to cross the Texas border. We have had several encounters between deputies and Mexican Army HUMVEES resulting in international incidents. I particularly don’t enjoy it but it has no real effect on my daily life.War is the natural state of homo sapiens David. If you magically removed religion, politics, greed, hatred, envy, and every other source of conflict from the picture as Lefties keep proposing we would still find reasons to kill each other. Peace is achieved through superior firepower. I practice my right to be armed. Is this some secret desire to kill someone? No. It is insurance. I prepare for the worst so I can be surprised by the best.
Mike
For a loudmouth bigot you seem to have forgotten 20th century history. In 1981 Iran and Iraq began attacking neutral tankers in an attempt to close the Gulf to oil traffic. . ....DumbassOur shame in Iraq is not in weapons as Iraq has never had any US weapons systems. French and Russian weapon systems comprised Iraq’s military. Our shame is not in greenlighting any action of Saddams. As we helped him with intel and protecting his tankers. Our shame is in not condemning his use of Russian chemical weapons on Iran and the Kurds. We allowed our dislike of Iran to overshadow the murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians on both sides of the borders. Despite the attempts of Lefties to stop it, Saddam is dead. Iraq has been disarmed, and the war will end. The only area that is in turmoil is the Sunni triangle.Arabs pissed after losing power over the majority. After Iraq splits into three countries they can choke on sand.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 17, 2007 at 10:57 PM Iraq had plenty of US dual technology easily convertible for military uses. No, moron, Iraq attacked Iran in the Summer of 1980 during the hostage crisis at the US Embassy in Tehran. Carter sanctioned it and so did Reagan. Neither ever tried to close the Gulf to ALL tankers but were militarily attacking those ones which were supplying the enemy. It’s called war, dumbass and both the NATO & Warsaw Blocs were supporting Iraq. The chemical weapons were used by both sides just as the US used napalm on a huge scale in Indochina and also unnecessarily dropped the atomic bombs on Japan which had been trying to surrender for nine months prior. I’ve given book & periodical refs before on this and can do so again. But you have no interest in the truth. For a guy who complains about “bigots” you are the biggest anti-Arab racist I’ve seen, at least Arabs don’t use friggin newspapers for umbrellas as your kinsmen in Me Hi Co do. Backward Third Worlders even with a very thin TexASS veneer should not throw stones at other people of color. Your people regularly choke on their own tequila. If war was natural why do all govts have to force people to go to war ? I understand that you are the end product (chuckle, chuckle) of two very violent cultures, the Spanish and the Injuns, probably more of the latter. But do not assume all humanity is at your folks’ low level. BTW, Iraq has been disarmed for many years if you are referring to WMD’s and even before 1991 that was terribly exaggerated. Saddam’s death will only worsen matters and the barbaric way he died will only inflame our Sunni allies like Saudi Arabia so they will end up hating us as much as the Shiites have for years. The war will end ? What planet are you living on ? Jose Crackhead. Bush is getting ready to expand the war greatly and at least Saddam kept a lid on things and particularly the fundies, now THEY are running Iraq, Bush has created a second Iran. Something even a not so bright TexASSANIZED beaner boy should be able to figure out. We need
troops out of there and over here to keep your illegal kinsmen the hell out. Even the blacks can’t stand your ilk. Even the blacks. I’ve met many Palestinian Arabs and I’ll take them over the Taco Bandidos any friggin day of the year.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 18, 2007 at 12:46 AM Once again Mike your stupidity is amusing. Your endless parroting of dubious left-wing rhetoric is banal at best. The relentless attempts to rewrite history are fumbling and ridiculous. Your dimwitted anti-semitism and various rascist slurs only serve to underscore the point that your a dumbass. Keep those witty responses coming.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 18, 2007 at 4:50 AM I lived in Texas for about 10 years. There really are some highly intelligent people living in Texas. “texasindependent” is not one of them.
Posted by frank67 on Jan 18, 2007 at 5:37 PM Gee, Texass, is that the best you can do ? Kuya, I thought Texass was just another stupid Texass redneck but he told us he’s a tacocon driving a BMW yet ! After his own anti-Arab racism and Texass jingoism I decided to reply in kind. Frank, glad to know that !
Posted by blondemike on Jan 18, 2007 at 6:21 PM Moronic Mike,
Israel, as everyone knows, has not actually averaged $5 billion per year since 1948. Anyone will tell you that. They in fact recieved most of their aid from private Jewish charities until 1967 and at no time did this aid ever come close to $5 billion in on year. The US aid began to flow in earnest after 1973 when Israel nearly lost the war with Egypt and Syria. You are entitled to your own opinion but NOT your own facts. Why should you be able to make up nonsense and present it as fact? Provide a credible link or shut the hell up!!
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 18, 2007 at 8:00 PM Israel has killed far fewer Arabs than other Arabs. Israel hasn’t killed nearly the number of even one such Arab leader as Saddam or Hafiz Assad. Israel has probably killed about 50,000 Arabs civilian and military since 1947 and no more than this number. Check it out.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 18, 2007 at 8:13 PM I didn’t write since 1948. At least since 1967. Five billion is the actual figure and I can give you the refs on this. I used to think it was merely three billion but I found that did not cover all economic and military aid nor did it cover the numerous more than annual supplemental aid. Israel in several years has gotten more than five billion in aid. I never said anyone was entitled to their own facts. The Washington Report On The Middle East is good here. So is MERIP and both are in DC. By credible source, you mean a slanted source that agrees with your prejudices. No, I won’t shut up and I don’t take instruction from you as you ought to know by now. The aid from private charities from 1948-67 came right out of the US taxpayer’s hide as these “charities” (multibillion dollar Jewish fundraising groups) get special tax-exemption privileges. In the 50s the West German govt was giving Israel tens of billions for phony “holocaust” claims and France was giving them weapons. The ones that weren’t being stolen by Israel’s agents there and in the US. No other country gets so much US aid, both absolutely and relatively. And no other country gets totally unmonitored aid as Chomsky noted in The Fateful Triangle. The Egyptians have to account for every penny of US aid, the Israelis none and Chomsky’s revised title above is a good source here. Kathleen and Bill Christensen have written several books on this subject and Cockburn has frequently published their work on this matter in counterpunch.org, both electronic and print editions. On this issue Alexander Cockburn is a good source though an old Stalinist. Previously Christopher Hitchen’s had done good work here. Cheryl Rubenberg had a good book on US-Israel which discussed this. There are many others but this will suffice since you never check out refs
anyway. Israel has killed at least 200,000 Arabs by 1986 alone and another 100,000 since then. Over 20,000 Arabs were killed by Israel in Lebanon alone in summer 1982 alone. Israel as Chomsky has frequently noted kills Arabs at a rate of 10 to 1 and sometimes more. The only comparable Arab killings of Palestinians and that’s whom we are talking about here was in Jordan in fall 1970 AND FULLY BACKED BY ISRAEL AND THE US. Assad never killed anywhere near 54,000 Arabs, even the alleged 10,000 figure in one city is usually exaggerated as 20,000 by Zionist liars and Saddam never killed anywhere near 54,000 Arabs in peacetime. Saddam mostly killed Persians (Iranians) in wartime. I long ago checked out everything on this and all other subjects that I have written about. I just don’t get my refs from The New Republic or the Mossad like you do. I never defended the numerous Arab tyrannies most of whom are backed overtly by the US and covertly by Israel. You remind me of the apartheid apologists who used to say it was wrong to criticize South Africa since Idi Amin, et al, was much worse. Funny how your ilk minimizes everyone else’s casualties while maximizing your own by a factor of ten.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 18, 2007 at 8:22 PM Chomsky is academic joke His “work” in linguistics is childish, ill conceived, and lacks any real functionality. To sum up 40 years of study he believes language skills are hardwired into the human brain. Despite countless studies across the Natural Sciences proving language is a learned skill.
Chomsky’s only useful contribution is the fleecing of left-wing morons into buying whatever ridiculous book he is selling. A cheap huckster profiting from selling what Lefties want to hear.
No real surprise that Mike a racist half-wit soaks up the bile from Chomsky the head racist half wit.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 19, 2007 at 12:27 AM Robert Beal makes 2 good points regarding the oil contracts and the issue of Euros for oil, the latter probably more responsible for the war in Iraq than any other single factor. Two links below go to William Clark pre-war analysis for both Iraq and Iran. There are other excellent links there to other articles also. As always, just follow the money.
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.htmlIt’s interesting to note that while Shiite Muslims are only about 20% of all Islam, they are concentrated in the gulf. It has occurred to me that part of the strategy in Iraq is that after we leave and the inevitable civil war with the Sunnis’ ensues, it will spread and Muslims will start fighting one another instead of us. Problem with that theory is too much oil might be lost/diverted in the process.
Mike-have you considered the fact that a big part of our support of Israel is to have one secure ally/staging area in this critical region? As you yourself have stated, we don’t help anybody without it serving our own interest.
David-I agree that we will attack Iran-think it was planned all along. Maybe they forgot to use spell-check? We really can’t allow them to continue selling their oil for Euros. The world reserve currency, until now, has always been that of the world’s largest creditor, not debtor.
Posted by recursive prophet on Jan 19, 2007 at 1:49 AM The ability to acquire any specific language, or any specific combination of specific languages, is a learned skill. These specific abilities to acquire specific languages are universally hard-wired. Chomsky may be disputed for specific aspects of his linguistic theory, but the theory in general, that language is a hard-wired human acquisition, is generally accepted by all linguists.
On the other hand, specific languages, such as English, do tend to reinforce certain basic cognitive perceptions of our environment. Sentences are almost invariably led by single capitalized letters, and followed by a multiple train of noncapitalized letters, interspersed with proper nouns and names whose primary property is that they are capitalized. Capitalism, as such, may well be a learned acquisition.
Posted by Major Major on Jan 19, 2007 at 1:56 AM Texass, you’re qualified to debunk Chomsky in linguisitics, maybe you’re also qualified to debunk Einstein in relativity…........... Chomsky has debunked the environmentalist tabula rasa thesis and none of those studies have debunked Chomsky, in fact 40 years ago was when Chomsky knocked Bloomfield and the Skinnerians off their throne for good. You’re as ignorant of linguistics as you are of history and political philosophy and you are as hardcore a racist as they come. Needless to say you can’t refute any of Chomsky’s political works either.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 19, 2007 at 2:42 AM That Israel is being used, willingly or otherwise, to further US interests is a much more credible premise than its controversial counterpart: that the US is being used to further Israel’s interests. That all parties concerned, the US, Israel and the Middle East in general, are drifting regressively to their respective fundamentalist roots in response to the unresolved crises of modernism is also apparent. It’s also possible that American foreign policy is specifically intended to disrupt the production of petroleum in order to forestall the advent of peak production and the economic dislocations which are sure to ensue from a protracted decline in the supply of such a universally crucial resource.
Posted by Major Major on Jan 19, 2007 at 6:02 AM Very interesting insight, Major. But do you really think those that can effectively communicate with the present administration could possibly be that far-sighted? I wish. I suspect we shall use Israel again to initiate the air strikes against Iran, and use the 2 carriers just deployed to the gulf as a backup in case Iran tries to retaliate. But your speculation is quite interesting, if unlikely. I totally agree about the emergence of fundamentalism on all fronts.
Posted by Eric Blair on Jan 19, 2007 at 6:54 AM Chomsky is a fraud. Not only are his ramblings inane but also easily debunked. His 100 best lies are debunked here.
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/100chomskylies.pdf
Every savory whopper with footnotes. My personal favorite is when Amnesty International has to report not only they never had the information Chomsky quoted, but the information is bogus.
Here is another ass whipping done by bleeding heart liberals.
http://www.belgraviadispatch.com/archives/003126.html
Here is a spectacular debunking done by simply checking his source material against the actual information.
http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2004/10/chomsky_and_dec.html
Keep sending that money in. Chimpsky will spin you some new whoppers. ......Dumbass racist.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 19, 2007 at 8:52 AM I’ve seen that site and I’ve seen the rebuttals too, unlike you I’m not afraid to view both sides. I’ve known Chomsky for 22 years, have reviewed books of his and we have had our share of disagreements as well as agreements. He has forgotten more on ANY subject than you’ll ever know. Go fuck yourself, you lowlife Texassan racist. I’ve rebutted Oily Ollie Kamm on this subject and others at great length. As well as the born again rightist psychotic David Horowitz. Major, speaking of Chomsky, Jeff Blankfort actually rebutted Noam’s premise that the Israel serves US interests and showed that it’s the other way around. You can download Jeff’s lengthy on the web. Noam is wrong on this one because he discounts AIPAC’s influence entirely and AIPAC is the most powerful lobby in Congress far and away.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 19, 2007 at 5:32 PM blondemike
You have rebutted donkey squat. Why would any rational thinking person waste the dollars or the time to read Chimpsky’s childish, ridiculous lies. Having been debunked as a liar and a fraud, Noam attacks the person not the issue. Much like you.I understand the dilemma of basing your philosophy on the retarded ramblings of a racist liar. Nazi’s, Klansman, and members of the Nation of Islam share the same problem. While your racism is amusing it speaks to your self doubt and shame. Perhaps you have a small weiner, maybe you were not hugged enough as a small child, I think its because your a dumbass. Lacking any real importance you vent on the world at large behind the anonymity of the Internet.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 19, 2007 at 6:34 PM You’re right, I have rebutted donkey squat aka texass independent. You are reduced to ad hominems, psychobabble and namecalling. You are not worth the seat off Chomsky’s balls you pathetic little redneck wannabe tacocon.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 19, 2007 at 8:36 PM If not for the two Gulf wars, and the sanctions imposed on Iraqi petroleum production, world oil production may well have peaked ten years ago, with world-wide catastrophic economic consequences. American foreign policy, for at least the last ten years, has been employed to fuel sectarian conflicts in the Middle East—Israelis against the Palestinians, the Sunnis (in Iraq and Saudi Arabia), the Shia (in Iraq, Iran, Lebanon and Syria) and the Kurds (in Iraq and Turkey) against each other. I don’t agree with the strategy, but evidently the people who construct the policy apparently believe no other viable alternative exists.
Posted by Major Major on Jan 20, 2007 at 12:39 AM The sources for Assad and Saddam’s casualty figures are not Zionist ones but respected international human rights agencies like Amnesty International and Human Rightys Watch (Middle East). These folks have established that Arab leaders kill more Arabs over time than does Israel. Also, you did state since 1948 for your absurd foreign aid figures to Israel . But you lie all the time like most fascists.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 20, 2007 at 5:48 AM Cabdriver
Mike is a fascist…....That does explain the racism. But how do you factor in the Chimpsky worship, and virulent anti-americanism? Wouldn’t that would move him from fascism into socialism? But on the other hand David Duke and Cindy Sheehan are on the same page now so perhaps he could be facist / socialist / racist / dumbass….....
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 20, 2007 at 7:28 AM Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch ong ago admitted they could not document the Assad and Hussein figures and that they have whitewashed Israel for many years because of a fear of funding backlash by hystercial Jews like the cabbie moron. No, I stated the total figure for Israel from 1948 was 250 billion BUT that 90% or more of that CAME SINCE 1967 WAR. Prior to that German holohoax reparations and tax-exempt private US Jewish funds were the main source of Israeli aid. Little Texass Beaner Wannabe Redneck is calling his Mama a dumbass ????? Shame on you TacoBoy, you are a disgraceful racist and a debit to you’re race.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 22, 2007 at 6:17 PM Glad to see we’re staying on the ‘high road’ here, and right on topic. This is the Chomsky thread, yes? I took a senior level course in transformational grammar; back in university during the ‘60’s when it was in the seminal stages. It was a poor introduction to this multidimensional thinker, and little remains-clearly-except certain insights from his discourses on language structure. His political writing would later give voice to unspoken thoughts I had developed over the years. His mental acuity is so far beyond my own that trying to really analyze his work would have taken a lifetime of study. “If the mental midget could measure the mental giant, as the foot rule measures the pyramid, there would be universality in human suffrage that in fact fails to exist. (Paraphrase-GBS)
As this is apparently an ethnicity forum also, consider Chomsky’s; the Ashkenazim tribe is less than a small fraction of 1% of world population, yet they account for 27% of the Nobel Laureates. God’s chosen people? Having none of the magical DNA myself, I feel I can look at all their numbers objectively. If I believed there was a god they would sure have been my choice. Chomsky is but one of many giants. See the irony here in your position, Mike? So to go off topic for a moment, here’s how I see some relevance between the phenomenon of one tribe that for whatever reason-there are many theories-got a real head start, (the people of the book?) and how it underlies much of what is happening in Iraq.
I believe the pride of the Islamic world was dealt a memorable blow during the 6 Day War. This tiny group (5 million) had defeated the armies of Allah so decisively it made an indelible impression on the collective psyche of Islam. These are people known to have a long memory regarding insult to their pride.
The main problem Palestinians present to Israel is one with global implications; demographics. The world of Islam has grown nearly 50% in the last 15 years, and the majority in most Muslim countries is below the age of 15. Iran is a classic example, and their oil reserves will be mostly exhausted in 20 years. This reality is a big part of why Iranians are seen as such a threat. The coming Oil Brouse, where they will be paid in Euros for their oil, will likely be the most immediate factor that forces the U.S. to act.
If we maintain the Israelis have no right to maintain an enclave for their ‘tribe,’ we better also explain that to the Hindu’s in India and the non-Hispanic residents of the U.S., along with the ‘natives’ of Europe and countless other groups. Lifeboat Earth is beginning to go under, and it seems likely only those that can effectively bail or row will remain on board. Iraq was a blunder, from any perspective. Now Bush is making it worse while we lose Afghanistan, another dilemma of our own creation. Time to start looking for CD’s in Euros?
Posted by recursive prophet on Jan 22, 2007 at 9:26 PM RP, I don’t believe all the historical situations you list above are analogous. Let’s take the USA and Israel. There were at most several million Indians so-called living here in a huge land area
and 99% of it had no private property or title claims. Palestine is a very small area wherein close to a million Arabs were expelled in 1948, they were NOT Nomads except for a few Beduoins and they
had property titles and often even proof of ownership. And it is a much more recent occurence that can still remedied today by the right of return or compensation for not returning. Chomsky himself uses your argument as a reason to oppose a democratic secular state in Palestine and he is very quick to label as racists those who disagree but it doesn’t work. I agree with you that there have been many Jewish intellectuals though they are still a very small number of the overall Jewish population and many like Chomsky have very mixed premises. As a group they have been hiding behind this holocaust crap for 60 years to avoid criticism that everyone else receives. Lifeboat Earth going under ? You’re way too optimistic ! Appreciate your thoughts here even when we diverge.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 22, 2007 at 11:34 PM Thanks Michael-though I find your thoughts enigmatic as always. Regarding the Jewish intellectuals being a small portion of the total population, my point above is that there are a far higher percentage of intellectuals in this tribe than any other. Conversely, the Palestinians have the highest birthrate and lowest literacy rate (the two usually go together) of all the Islamic groups.
If titles are what matter, many in Mexico had deeds to property we commandeered long ago. Of course they also took the land from the natives of the migration 11 thousand years earlier, who had appropriated it from the pre-Clovis migrations. Might may not make right, but it sure helps in a fight. The Jews learned this lesson well in the forties, and have been quite successful in teaching it to others since then.
I have discovered very few know that 30-60 million starved to death in China during the famine there of the mid sixties. This was only 45 years ago, and far more-by any estimate-died there than in the Nazi pogroming. I think it is to the Jew’s credit they made certain their dead were not forgotten, and I worry they have been too successful and thus generated a backlash. Not sure why you seem so concerned with the details behind this Israeli PR campaign, or what solutions it would offer regarding their future in the Negev Desert if we accepted your premise that the holocaust was a hoax. They get plenty of criticism either way, some of the most strident from their own like Chomsky. So how is the number and exact circumstances of those who died under Hitler relevant to the choices we and they face in the Middle East today?
Personally I would like to believe the holohoax theory. If 6 million Ashkenazi really were executed 6 decades back, think of all the Chomsky’s and Einstein’s mankind lost. But that is in the past. What concerns me now is how many we will lose in Israel in the future. As always, most of the problem revolves around religious fundamentalism on all sides, and I fear over the last 25 years it has led many of Gods chosen people astray.
Again I would mention the demographics problem, and point out that what Jews face now is but a preview of what all advanced countries will soon have to confront. Habla Espanol, amigo? If not, you better learn. It will soon be the dominant language here in California. Que sera?
Posted by recursive prophet on Jan 23, 2007 at 1:09 AM RP, not true on the Pals. They are considered the Jews of the Arab world and in fact have one of the highest literacy rates in the Arab world. I’d generally agree with your observation about high birth rates and low literacy rates going together but this group is high in both. Of couse, many don’t survive the Occupation to make it to adulthood. Which may be a contributing factor in people deciding to have so many offspring on the chance that some may actually survive. Most of the rest of your comments I generally agree with. The Jews do have a higher percentage of intellectuals, it is a learning and book centered culture which is a high compliment to many Jewish families, perhaps most. Other groups, blacks, Latinos, white ethnics, Arabs could profitably emulate that very positive feature of Jewish culture. My wife who is Jewish in her more candid moments admits that a high ercentage of that culture consists of perenially disputatious narcissistic legalistic arguers. But every group has its downsides. Irish drink, blacks commit crime out of proportion to numbers, Arabs steal, Serbs murder, etc and there are numerous exceptions to every rule or stereotype. I won’t get into nature v. nurture because I can’t tell where one ends and the other begins. I don’t fault any group for getting out a good PR campaign but no one goes to prison for doubts on Mao’s or Stalin’s or Pol Pot’s figures or the many victims of US foreign policy. In much of Europe, Canada, Australia, Israel you can go to prison for publicly doubting the holocaust standard version even if you acknowledge the basic evil of the National Socialists. How it relates today is that the perpetual holocaust campaign is being used to make Israel’s critics never get a fair hearing. Chomsky is only somewhat good here. It’s probably a tribal thing but he never voiced concerns for whites in South Africa or Rhodesia who had been living there continuously for much longer than most Israeli Jews about their fate in a black dominated society. It’s normal hypocrisy and I’m not having a cow over it, just pointing it out. Your last sentence on California sums it up as I can agree from living here since 1973. Thanks for your intelligent tone and perceptive comments.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 23, 2007 at 1:49 AM Live and learn. I’m trying to recall where I read that the literacy rate in Palestine was lowest in Arab world-maybe it was iliteracy rate?-but at any ‘rate’ I stand corrected. Perhaps the Jews learned a few things from Goebbels also? I tend to view most things quantitatively, but we are all influenced by the propaganda that bombards us from countless directions.
I definitely agee that stereotypes generally contain some elements of truth, and that it’s a slippery slope when we imprison people for their beliefs. As I hold the Jews in such high regard, I also worry that if some carry the anti-pogrom program too far, they may drop the R. But if it is too late, as you suggest, which side are you on? THAT, IMHO, is our real dilemma. There is much ‘justice’ in the Palistenian lament, as well as those from Africa and from our southern neighbors. But it’s all a zero sum game Mike, and we’re even runnin out of tuna. How do you think Americans would vote if it was between a military draft and just taking the gulf oil, or giving up their cars and large, centrally heated houses?
Somehow I strongly suspect you have a book in the works Mike, and I for one would truly like to read it. I think it is to the great credit of the ITT Webmaster that he/she has not seen fit to try and ban you, though I’m certain some have probably suggested it. Nobody is forced to read things they don’t want to here, and my appreciation of your outrageous style and energy has grown in the last week. Keep swinging; just focus on the space between breaths now and then. -Arpie
Posted by recursive prophet on Jan 23, 2007 at 5:13 AM Mike ,
You have top be the biggest moron in history. In addition Tex has political categories confused. There is nothing socialist about BM’s rants. Fascists are also anti-American and blame the lasting effects of WWII, “the good war”, for the problems of the world today. One of the negative effects according to fascists like Hardesty, Buchanan, and others who can be found reading the National Website is the fact that the war boosted the US economy creating a broad based US middle class, strengthening its trade union movement and its political influence through the Democratic Party. Another thing it did which fascists regret is that it smashed fascism while allowing communism to emerge in such places as China and other parts of East Asia occupied and pillaged by Japan. This is the basic Buchanan gripe. He similarly advocated a strong Nazi presenced in Europe as a counter-weight to Soviet influence.
A possible third thing is that genocide was given a bad name. Not that genocide was prevented afterward, it wasn’t and there have been several since WWII mostly in Africa but also elsewhere. The emergence of Israel has irked fascists and anti-semites no end. Though leftists like Lenny Brenner and others stress the historic link between anti-semites and Zionism, anti-semites regret the very state with which they may have once made strange bedfellows. Though Israel is very close to a fascist state if ever there was one, and has jettisoned any of its former “socialist” inclinations anti-semites like to think of this rump state as a source of incredible power and influence in its own right exersizing undue influence on the US collossus. This is obviously foolish. Israel’s bombing of the Iraqi Osirik Reactor was in US interests. It set back Iraqi nuclear research many years. It was at least as important a reason as UN inspection teams as to why no WMDs were ever found in Iraq.
Buchanan believed that Iraq was a key ally against Islamic fundamentalism. This had limited value. A fascistic Buchananite world would pose fascist allied barbarians against barbarians of other kinds while constantly creating wars and fresh crops of extremist forces to conquer all at the expense of innocent people who invariably would die in these wars. A Buchananite world is a world of war without end. Remember he is a fascist not a old style conservative. Fascism is not a sustainable or mainstreamable system. It is a spontaneous, brutal, last ditch response to capitalist crisis. In the end it causes as many problems as it solves if not more so. This has been obvious since WWII. This is why mainstream liberal capitalists are afraid to let the fascist cat out of the bag again even when there is an enormous buildup of antagonistic political pressure on contemporary capitalism all over the entire world.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 23, 2007 at 6:35 AM Chicago, I have already answered you at length on other threads and you’re opening sentence is what the psychologists call projection. Saddam was an ally against Islamic fundamentalism, it wasn’t a view not limited to Buchanan. A “fascist” to you is like a “socialist” to Scorp, it is all purpose general swear word that has no relation to reality. It is simply a way of ad homineming the messenger to avoid dealing with the message. For better or worse there was no “genocide” in WW2. It was a coined term, see James J. Martin’s book The Man Who Invented Genocide on Polish Jew Raphael Lemkin who coined the term. The US-UK killed millions of German civilians in the airbombing that the UK, not Germany, initiated in 1940 but I still wouldn’t label it “genocide.” Now when the overwhelmingly Jewish killers in the NKVD under Stalin killed tens of millions of Ukrainians, Balts, Chechens, that WAS genocide. Israel does NOT in US interests as the Pollards Spy Case proved, unfortunately it’s the reverse. Her 1981 Iraqi bombing was NOT in US interests as Iraq was a US ally at that time in the war against Iran. Frankly, Chicago, you need to get your traitorous ass back to Israel where you once lived. Buchanan wasn’t even writing during WW2 so he never advocated a “nazi” anything. If the UK and France hadn’t got Poland to refuse to negotiate in good faith over the GERMAN city of Danzig there would have been no WW2 and no German armies in Europe.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 23, 2007 at 8:05 PM BM (suitable initials for your ilk),
Buchanan’s advocacy regarding WWII is in retrospect, moron. The NKVD had almost no Jews and persecuted Russian Jews as much as it did others. This is particularly true since Stalin exiled Trotsky, a point which you gloss over. You cite nonsense works which are not held as reliable historic sources. You don’t know ANY history. The Poles were told to allow a corridor to danzig which they did. They negotiated in good faith on all German demands. The entire world knows that German territorial demands were ridiculous. They wanted broad swaths of Baltic border areas where there were majority poles and Balts. The Nazis started the war. They bombed London and Coventry as well as other European cities. They committed mass murder everywhere they went. This is not just a Jewish claim but a global one. The Germans today admit to all of it. They certainly wouldn’t if they weren’t guilty. The Poles were very anti-Soviet and pro-German between 1935, the year of Pilsudski’s death and 1939 when they were invaded. They supported German territorial claims in the corridor and even used the German invasion of Memmel in East Prussia to invade and annex teschen in Slovakia. The world sat by and watched Hitler rearm. They watched him unilaterally abrogate every single aspect of the Versailles treaty without reacting. It was not necessary to invade Poland. Hitler invaded and occupied almost every country of continental Europe. What was the point? He is universally thought to be a madman. This is justified. He did in fact murder countless millions. This is one reason we went to war. Althroughout the Weimar period, germany recieved millions in loans from the US. By 1930, with the adoption of the Young Plan, almost all the terms of the 1919 Versailles treaty were revised or eliminated anyhow except for the demand for reparations. The Versailles Treaty is NO excuse because by the time Hitler invaded Poland he had entirely reversed the treaty and had be told by the UK to negotiate in Good faith. It was the annexation of Bohemia and Moravia in March 1939 that angered the UK. These area were majority Czech. You are a pro-Nazi moron that toes the Nazi line and misrepresents history. This is not my fault.
As far as Iraq is concerned the bombing of the Osirik reactor was certainly in the interests of the entire western world. For Saddam to actually have WMDs would be a legitimate cause for war and everyone agrees that whether or not he allied with the west in a senseless war on Iran he would have been a threat with WMDs. The efficacy of the Israeli airstrike could be debated. Some feel that it actually inspired a much greater and more intensive effort by Saddam to develop a nuclear weapons program. This opinion is common in the Iraqi scientific community. What is known about the Materials Test Reactor sold to Iraq by the French is that it was an alarming choice. According to one source, “...an MTR design is useful for countries with established nuclear reactor construction programs, being used to test and analyze the effects of neutron flux upon metals used in reactor components. MTR isn’t useful to those countries which have no established reactor programs, UNLESS THEY ARE INTERESTED IN TRANSMUTING U238 to Pu239 TO MAKE A BOMB VIA THE HIGH NEUTRON FLUX CHARACTERISTIC OF AN MTR!!” It is further noted that Iraq possessed Highly enriched uranium which it used as fuel and which could be treated at the facility to produce weapons grade plutonium. The Iraqi government also possessed a fuel fabrication plant. In 1991, the IAEA officially declared Iraq to be in violation of its nuclear safeguards agreement. The Iraqis wanted to begin nuclear enrichment during their invasion of Kuwait. In January 1991, Coalition forces targeted the nuclear site near Baghdad and destroyed it. This is one reason no weapons were found by UN inspectors. There is no question that Saddam had nuclear ambitions since he came to power. This isn’t just my opinion but that of leading anti-war UK correspondant Patrick Cockburn who writes regularly for the London Independant and has authored two acclaimed, unequivocally anti-war books, “From the Ashes” and “Occupation.”
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 24, 2007 at 4:04 AM The NKVD and both its predecessor & successor secret police services were until 1945 exclusively headed by Jews and had mostly Jewish assassins. IHR reprinted a very recent piece from an Israeli paper on this subject, they properly labeled it mass genocide BY Jews. So you’re “peepul” are far from always being victims, Chicago Crabs. Stalin’s elimination of Trotsky had NOTHING to do “persecution” of Jews in the USSR. There was no such persecution until well AFTER WW2 in Stalin’s last years. Before that for decades there was Soviet government sponsored Jewish persecution by genocide of tens of millions of Russians, Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Lithunians, Muslims, Chechens. That is WHY so many people in the USSR welcomed Hitler as a liberator and 90% of the killings of Jews that were actually done by shooting, not nonexistent gas chambers, were done by Stalin’s victims, NOT Germans. The Poles never negotiated in good faith, see the leading UK historian, A.J.P. Taylor’s The Origins Of The Second World War and US historian David L. Hoggan’s The Forced War in this regard. You have been rebutted on this many times as you have repeatedly admitted. Versailles Treaty had NOT been completely reversed when Hitler invaded Poland, the Danzig issue was one of the major sticking points of Versailles and if it had been reversed he never would have had to invade Poland. Even a Portnoy Jackoff Artist like you should be able to figure that one out. the Nazis never started the WORLD war, the UK and France started the WORLD war by their declaration of warvon Germany. Churchill STARTED the civilian saturation bombing as his minister J. M. Spaight admitted in the book Bombing Vindicated and also see F.J.P. Veale’s Advance To Barbarism. The UK, not Germany, STARTED civilian mass saturation bombing. Hitler was not a madman nor did he purposefully murder millions, there was a WORLD WAR going on at the time and BOTH sides killed many millions of people. Iraq HAS JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO NUCLEAR WEAPONS AS ISRAEL DOES AND ISRAEL ONLY HAS THEM BECAUSE OF TRAITORS IN THE US AND FRENCH JEWISH COMMUNITIES OF THE POLLARD SPY FAMILY ILK. There was never proven by the IAEC or anyone else that Iraq ever had or was making nuclear WEAPONS, though again they have as much as Israel does to possess them or as the US does. We are the only ones to ever criminally use them. Iraq was a US ally in 1981 and Israel did us no favors. Iraq has only been planning to use nuclear power unlike Israel and unlike the US. Nice of you to quote a member of the Stalinist Cockburn family. Are you familiar with Alex’s views on Israel and US Jews blank check for same ? The Un inspectors never found any weapons of the WMD type in Iraq because they never existed there. It’s always a pleasure to rebut your stinky Zionist Racist behind, Shitcago Crabs.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 24, 2007 at 6:21 PM BM,
Danzig was really out of the Poles hands since it was a legal ward of the League of Nations. The Poles acceeded to all Hitler’s demands except to relinquish the corridor to which Hitler was NOT entitled. The Nazis invaded Poland killing 7 million of its people. That’s when the UK declared war on Hitler. This hardly seemed necessary or justified. Your revisionist nonsense sources have been wholly discredited.
Iraq had no right to a nuclear bomb as per the IAEA rules and the 1963 NPT. What right did Saddam have to a bomb. The French were working on nuclear technology with Israeli scientists since 1949 according to US experts. This is only more support for the Israel as strategic asset theory. A nuclear armed Iraq would have been a disaster. The Israelis helped reverse a serious French mistake made in selling MTR technology to the likes of Saddam.
The NKVD was hardly a Jewish institution. This is a stupid and prejudiced claim by an uniformed fascist moron. You have as usual supplied no proof for your inane claims. BTW, you engage in ad hominim attacks far more than anyone I’ve ever seen on these blogs.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 24, 2007 at 7:58 PM Are you guys in love? Or do you both just need a hug? It might be more instructive if you revealed your agendas in continuing this debate. Isn’t history just, at the end of the day, the propaganda of the victorious? How much of any of it can we be sure of? Why not expand on the philosophical aspects of this issue, like the ‘right’ to develop nuclear weapons?
Posted by Eric Blair on Jan 24, 2007 at 8:52 PM Poland was running the show in Danzig under a very thin League figleaf. Poland had the power to negotiate and they didn’t because of the untenable UK-French “guarantee” and because of delusions of grandeur that the Polish Fascist Junta had about their military prowess. The NKVD was as Jewish as the Mossad, check out the recent Israeli reference on ihr website about a week or so back and there has been a book or two on this. I gave you this reference in contrast to your blatant lie above and I HAVE REPEATEDLY GIVEN OUT REFERENCES TO YOU. You state without the slighest proof or argumentation that my sources, which you have never read (!), are discredited. On you’re say-so ? Whatever the number of Poles that were killed they were not all killed by the Germans, it was a WORLD war and the Soviets grabbed the most populated part of Poland and morons like you for decades accused the Germans of the Katyn Forest massacre of Polish officers done by the Soviets. Spare me your math after the six million Jews figure has been discredited with full sources given here. It was a serious US & French mistake, if that’s what it was, to give the Israelis nuclear weapons. Where did you read that “god” said only Jews in the Near East could have nukes ? Israel is in violation of that 1963 Treaty as is the US. What right did Israel have to a nuke ? Only a racist Zionist like you would claim Israel had a right and not the Arabs. Anyone with half a brain would realize Israel’s getting a nuke would set off a race for everyone there to do the same. I understand traitors in France and the US gave Israel the means to make nukes. The French Govt as such has never admitted doing so anymore than our government, if you can call the AIPAC run FedGov “our” government. Israel has never been a strategic asset to the US but a major liability that has alienated a billion Muslims and 200 million Arabs against the US. You do some honest math for a change. Eric, you’re right that the victors write the history books and also no country has a right to nukes. We need total worldwide disarmament and there is no will here to do so. This whole thing started when I was rebutting the rightist Scorp on a point he made about Kristallnacht being the start of the holcaust. I pointed out all the conventional historians gave summer 1942 to summer 1944 as the inclusive dates for what has been called (not before 1970) the holocaust. I wasn’t even making a revisionist argument. Stalinist Chicago Cabbie lashes out at me with a crazed attack and initially I briefly responded giving sources. He always comes back with some ad hominems and empty assertions and I respond to set the record straight. No, I don’t even like him and I’m getting sick of this. The topic is important but the endless repetition of the same points is boring everyone to death. We need to end it and move on.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 24, 2007 at 9:34 PM Mike,
I prefer you when you’re being civilised, as when you discuss with Recursive Prophet .Cabby,
You too !
Years ago, and late already in the day, I realised that the Israeli state had become somewhat similar to the former oppressors of the Jews and many others .Israel is very close to a fascist state, if ever there was one ....cabby 22jan 1135h .
We’ve disagreed before over the influence of the Zionist Lobby in the US. I’d include the UK and France to that, but that’s a detail.
The simple fact for me is that any President or PM’s job is to look after the national interest first, as wisely as possible.
Well, I’m a simple soul.
One thing is sure . This Iraqi Adventure has created chaos where there was relative stability before, and now the propaganda machine is all IRAN .
Went to sleep last night listening to the BBC World Service, and woke up this am listening to an impressive discourse in perfect english .... genocide….. annihilation…. trial for war Crimes… 1938….Holocaust denial…..a “violent apocalyptic sect” (The Muslim religion apparently…) ....
After a half-awake half-minute concluded it must be Bibi Netanyahu. It was .
Two minutes later the BBC journalist ineffectually presented some counter-arguments, got steamrollered .
A month or so ago I heard Elie Wiesel twice the same day on two different french radios, the thursday before Bibi ‘s tuesday conference with the Ambassadors and Press announcing that Ahmadinejihad was going to be attacked in the UN.. Same ‘message’.
November 2005, 23hrs, the TV3 News presenter here pronounced as a “FACT” that Iran was building nukes.
Getting back to the thread, the Chimp surely liked to finish off his idea of his Dad’s unfinished business, but he is just a minor player. .
Looking around , the FTA argument complements the OIL one. Australia, Canada, Mexico and points south, somepeople somewhere reckon they’re going to win out on those.
I’m not so sure about that.
Posted by frog on Jan 25, 2007 at 9:52 PM Frog, RP is civilized so I reciprocate. Happy to.
Chicago, Texass, Scorp, et al, are not so I reciprocate there too.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 26, 2007 at 2:17 AM Being civil to the uncivil is how you civilize them.
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 26, 2007 at 4:10 AM In the land of fire, all who play the game are singed. Or as Mike might say, flaming contests are kinda like the special olympics. Even if you win, you’re still a retard. You do have to admire his passion, and learn to laugh at his vitriol. Gonzo journalism in cyberspace-the Glog! Learn to both laugh at and with Michael. He is surreal even in Oakland, said the Cheshire Cat as he faded into a grin.
Posted by Cheshire Cat on Jan 26, 2007 at 4:41 AM I prefer nonflamers but I admit I too often take the bait. The bottom line is that too many people like the above vet here in Oakland hide behind false identities and never cop to their own failings. “Cheshire Cat” indeed ! You send us a crazed letter because one of the your staff was quite rude to my wife during that horrible day we had to call someone out for our beloved Tina because one of your imbecile colleagues at another vet place gave her the annuals in the nape instead of the safer hindlegs. I personally never had words with you, Mark or any of your staff. Nina was right about that one rude asshole who worked for you. And tell me, Marky, did Jeannette leave her will to you as some of your clients do ? I was told about this strange practice by someone who knew you. You should pick a less obvious disguise than the name of your pet clinic.
David, unfortunately you are wrong as regards the extreme flamers like Scorp, Chicago, etc. With less extreme ones your advice might work.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 26, 2007 at 5:54 PM David
Good advice. Mike PLEASE kiss my brown ass. Thank you.Arabs are savages. When no other group is present to kill they kill each other as is now happening in Palestine and Lebanon. Without any redeeming qualities they are a parasite on the underbelly of humanity. Why do Lefties weep for animals without a shred of civilized behavior in them? I think it’s the anti-american fan club mentality.
I find it amusing to read the screeds of liberals defending murderous radicals who if they were presented with the chance would kill their defenders as non-believers. Islam is a religion of hate, bigotry, pedophelia, spousal abuse, and political deceit. It’s practioners are ignorant savages locked into a self perpetuating system of poverty and destruction. Actions speak volumes that your words will never hide. Any reasonable person with a television can see the “peaceful religion” at work.
It is the standard practice for the dictators in Islamic countries to blame their societies ills on Israel or the West and export their radicals to kill and die elsewhere. With assistance from left wing reactionaries. When these animals realize the source of their problems is the medival form of government they suffer under and apply their rage to their dictators perhaps we can have a little peace on this planet.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 26, 2007 at 7:21 PM You ARE a racist, Texass. Thanks for admitting it and don’t come crying to me next time someone slights you. Your history is so untrue, racist and one-sided, it’s like a KKK member discoursing on blacks. Any person not brainwashed by the boob tube and who knew how to read would know that Christianity has killed tens of millions if not hundreds of millions over the last 2,000 years and that the barbaric ancient Hebrews wiped out the Canaanites, Phoenicians, Philistines, Assyrians, Chaldeans, etc. Your comments on a whole race are exactly what Hitler was accused of saying Jews, though he was never as extreme as you. Israel is the leading terrorist state and has killed twenty times as many Arabs as “terrorists” have killed Israelis and Israel is the OCCUPYING power, not the Arabs and THE ARABS HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE ALL MEANS WHATSOEVER TO EXPELL THE ISRAELI OCCUPIER. Tacocon beaner with the leeetle wiener, you’re madre is a puta.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 26, 2007 at 7:38 PM Oh you kids! But David, you hafta admit it is ‘quality entertainment,’ and informative at the same time. Mike seems to be in the zone lately, and it reminds me of watching “All In the Family” years ago. There were times when ol Archie cleverly made a point that resonated, and reminded you there was plenty of irony to go around. Opposing viewpoints always include elements of truth. All axiomatic propositions contain elements that are not consistent with their own logic.
In a way I feel Mike has provided me with a dope-slap I needed. My view of Israel has long been slanted in favor of the Jews, and sometimes we require harsh voices to bring our ever wandering focus back to harsh realities. Hard to explain, but I have enjoyed the exchanges here. Reminds me of eating ‘prickly pears’ from cactus. Mike and others manners are brusque, but aren’t those on the fringes always such? Socrates considered himself the “gadfly of society.”
I suspect some of the users involved-remember I’m a newbie-need the heat and ambiance of a barbeque to spur the flow of ideas. If that’s what it takes, flame on. Look forward to the flare-up from my comparing Mike with Socrates. A squirt of digital lighter fluid for our cyber-barbie?
Edit: I have read the repeats of Mike’s history, so don’t bother to repost them here. I must say I find all the ongoing antagonistic interactions between various users quite interesting, and wonder about the beneficial therapeutic effects of venting anger against others and their views anonymously. In the metaverse, things are seldom as they seem. Wonder how many have stepped through the looking glass? How could anyone prefer TV to all the convoluted realities on display in these threads?
To close with an off topic observation; I mentioned earlier I believe the war in Iraq is as much about the currency that the oil is traded in as who gets it at what price. The coming ‘Oil Bourse’ transfer of Iranian oil now being sold in Euros-along with Venezuela’s-may well be the real target. Follow the money? Anyone have thoughts/insights about this aspect of the current situation?
Posted by recursive prophet on Jan 26, 2007 at 9:05 PM Mike, the advice works regardless of extremes. I practice what I preach and speak from experience. Try it and you will be pleasantly surprised. Consider that when one is uncivilized to the uncivilized that it becomes difficult to tell who used to be civilized (if either really were in the first place).
Tex, please and thank you (with a glimmer of wit even!) are a good start.
You took a step foward by following my advice but your rant about arabs and muslims was so many steps backwards that you may never catch up. Most muslims are no different than people everywhere and simply want to live in peace.Arpie (Recursive Prophet), yeah ... that’s entertainment. Informative, instructive and irony aplenty.
Flame on, indeed! Your barbeque metaphor has merit but my only reservation would be that too much heat can leave the meat burned to a crisp.The off topic observation actually brings us back to the original topic. The spoils of war and the currency the spOILs are denominated in are important to the hegemony the USA is intent on maintaining. Control of the Middle East is control of oil that other nations around the world need and thereby is control of those nations too.
Yesterday, Iraq. Tomorrow, Iran (and Syria).
And the day after that ... the World.I can hear the sound of marching jackboots now.
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 27, 2007 at 12:13 AM BM,
The UK/French security guarantee given to Poland in March 1939 had nothing to do with Danzig. It was a response to Hitler’s illegal march into Czechoslovakia, a legally sovereign country, and conquering and annexing it to the Reich while the vast majority of bohemian and moravians were Czech. He also created an independant state out of Slovakia under a fascist puppet regime and gave Ruthania to Hungary despite the fact that Ruthenia was nearly all Ukrainian. Secondly, the guarantee to Poland was well known to the Nazis to have no teeth as the UK/French and others could not take on Hitler without the USSR. The UK/French “guarantee”, one sided and constantly undermined as it was by UK appeasement toward Hitler, was aimed at protecting Western Europe and not Poland. Chamberlain knew that Hitler could not fight on two fronts and by securing a Polish guarantee of mutual security gave the weak impression that if Hitler went to conquer Western Europe first, the Poles and others (maybe the Rumanians) would intervene forcing the Nazis to fight on two fronts, something Hitler badly wanted to avoid. In the end it was a moot point. Hitler conquered all of Europe from the Urals to the Atlantic before the Allies intervened.
Hitler always believed Poland should simply not exist. All the territory awarded to Poland by the 1919 Treaty of Versailles was always majority Polish including Polish Pomerania and Posen. This was taken from Poland in 1793 by Germany in the famous Partitions of Poland. The Poles simply won it back through Post WWI diplomacy. The exception was Danzig. Hitler used the issue as an excuse for general eastward aggression. He intended to invade and annex Poland no matter what the Polish response to Ribbentrop’s proposals in 1938 and 1939. Case White, the secret invasion Plans drawn up many months before the invasion is solid proof. The Germans were offered many compromises on Danzig including joint stewardship with a wide corridor connecting Germany and the port city and the right to build transportation lines. The governing of the City was already Nazified by council elections well before the invasion of Poland. The UK would never have gone to war over Danzig had Hitler taken it by force. In a sense, Chamberlain’s guaratees were to buy time for the West by directing Hitler’s aggression eastward. The real point of the story was that Hitler missed a chance for a Nazi/UK alliance against the Soviet Union by attacking Western Europe. This was the cause of Chamberlain’s appeasement. He saw himself in an anti-USSR pact with Hitler until he invaded Poland and then turned West to conquer everything up to the English Channel.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 27, 2007 at 12:59 AM I have already responded many times over to every point raised above. Hitler did not believe that Poland should not exist, he was more flexible in his demands than the Weimar Republic. Hitler never would have been in any NONGerman territories if the UK and France hadn’t declared war on him first. See the AJP Taylor and David Hoggan books referenced on this and many other threads. You are just parroting the old Stalin Commie line about Chamberlain’s “appeasement.”
There are no secret documents about Nazi plans of conquest in Europe anymore than there are orders to exterminate the Jews. That is lying bullcrap of Stalinist origin. The territory that Hitler was interested in Poland was only the German territory and besides which Poland had ten times more former Russian territory to boot. Stalin was no fan of Versailles either. The germans were not offered any rational compromises on the actual German territory stolen by Poland under Versailles. The Poles only played games, see Hoggan particularly in this regard both his 1948 Harvard Ph.D thesis and the later book out of it\The Forced War. Again Taylor’s The Origins Of The Second World War is valuable here. There was nothing particularly “Nazi” about Hitler’s foreign policy, it was traditional German demands for treaty revision. Hitler NEVER had any interest in conquering western Europe, he even conceded Alsace-Lorraine to France, which Weimar never considered.
You are following a strict Communist Party Popular Front Line here and it doesn’t pan out historically. By the way, all govts have contingency plans for all sorts of reasons, that is NOT solid proof of “aggression” or that they weren’t acting in good faith. It is a backup plan, so again your Case White proves nothing about “Nazi aggression.” That the UK DID in fact go to war over Danzig gives the lie to you’re statement above.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 27, 2007 at 3:12 AM Hitler did believe that Poland should not exist and said so in secret internal memos cited in the work by W. Shirer on the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. The Weimar position was irrelevant since they observed the Versaille Treaty and never invaded anyone. D. Hoggan is not accepted as a legitimate authority on the subject. The view that Hitler was appeased is absolutely universal and not at all limited to Stalin or members of various communist movements or parties.
The truth as many see it, however, is that Chamberlain COLLUDED with Hitler in order to debilitate the European Left and in order to bring down the USSR. It was Chamberlain’s hope to form an anti-Soviet pact with Hitler because the UK accepted all of Hitler’s revaunchism without a fight even after the invasion of Poland. Had Hitler left Western Europe alone there would have been no problem from the UK. An attack on the USSR without any other attacks west would not have elicited a response from the UK/French/US allies. This has been shown in UK Foreign Office documents and memos. The Naval Treaty between Hitler and the UK was a quid pro quo which Chamberlain & Co. observed impecably. The Uk was to have mastery of the seas without interference from Hitler’s navy which was to remain inferior to the UK’s while Hitler was to have a free hand in eastern Europe. Hitler got greedy and attacked Western Europe. Evidently, Hitler interpreted Chamberlain’s obvious collusion as a sign of military weakness and thus felt able to pursue aggressive conquest without consequences.
Hitler’s secret war plans and abuse of the Jews (two different issues) are not issues raised by Stalin but the all the West and objective observers in general. Hitler invaded and conquered all of Europe as was his intentions for years and was not stopped until very late by the Allies. You really don’t know history. In addition, you are a dumb fascist.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 27, 2007 at 4:39 AM BM,
“Hitler NEVER had any interest in conquering western Europe, he even conceded Alsace-Lorraine to France…”
The chronology of this eludes me. Was this before or after Hitler took Paris?
———————-
Recursive prophet,“The coming ‘Oil Bourse’ transfer of Iranian oil now being sold in Euros-along with Venezuela’s-may well be the real target. Follow the money? Anyone have thoughts/insights about this aspect of the current situation?”
Haven’t you heard — we’ll be able to do without foreign oil very soon :-)
Interesting article on the “corn barrel” approach to energy independence.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/weekend/hottopic/?id=110009587
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 27, 2007 at 3:58 PM Mike-I know you have posted a lot on this topic in cyberspace, but if there is any particular link that you could endorse that includes a comprehensive summary of your viewpoint I’d like to read it so plese post a link. I plan to check out some authors you mention here today at the library.
Cabby-I would like to see some links to the papers you mention in your replies. Surprised you would give up so many ‘debate points’ at the end of your post for a gratuitous insult, when Mike managed to stay on topic without resorting to them. If we applied our view of the messenger as opposed to the message to your last post, we might be inclined to wonder about the validity/strength of your arguments as you felt it necessary to end attacking the man instead of his claims. But as I said before, whatever floats your boat. One suggestion I would make is to loop all this history into the current situation in Iraq. Surely there are other aspects of our past than Hitler’s intentions that are relevant. For example, I find it quite interesting the whole Hess flight is still under wraps by MI-6. Know anything about that?
WTH-Ever read the study done at Berkeley on the energy savings possible just by painting the roofs in California white? Here’s one link. In another life I was in the energy field-now depleted-and we knew back in the ‘70’s ethanol from corn was a net loss and a political solution backed only by big Ag. Figures it’s what Bush would propose. Then there’s the amount of oil we could save by reducing speed limit as Carter did, and the message it would send to OPEC and oil speculators that we were finally serious. It all goes back to Reagan in 1980-and Bush said at the start Ronnie was his idol.
Posted by recursive prophet on Jan 27, 2007 at 10:47 PM RP,
I don’t really know you or anything about you so to be fair I am just going to assume that you are this incredibly innocent, unschooled young neophite with orange hair, a few rilly cooool tattoos, and some strategic piercings. OKAY??
RP, what links do you really need. I have given William Shirer’s exhaustive 1,600 page volume called “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” as well as some other sources including a left revisionist one called IN OUR TIME: The Chamberlain-Hitler Collusion by Alvin Finkel and Clement Liebowitz. Both are quite excellent and highly detailed diplomatic histories of the period.
RP, I don’t know what your experience with the srudy of history is but I’ll give you a hint. HITLER WAS A VERY BAD GUY!! He invaded and conquered all of Europe from the English Channel to the Urals and in 1942 started working on engulfing the Meditteranian with Rommel in North Africa who was to come full circle back to Russia through Iran!! What a vision, huh?? By this time Churchill and Eden were in Power in the UK and FDR declared war along with the UK because we were hit by Japan at Pearl Harbor. The appeasement/collusion went on far to long and Hitler and his Nazis conquered and killed far to many people while we sat by and watched like morons. Hitler got tons of territory he didn’t deserve. He got the abrogation of the Versailles Treaty. He got nearly half a billion in US direct investment, much of it in strategic areas, to help rebuild his economy. Other countries traded with Hitler like France whose Renault Co. built trucks and personell vehicles for the Wehrmacht. The early western hope was a Western/Hitler Alliance against Russia. But Hitler had other more expansive ideas…like world conquest!! Hitler’s efforts were not inspired by the historically German city of Danzig’s geographic disconnection to the Reich. He could have had that and more with no reaction from the West. It wasn’t about a little eastern lebensraum, the German answer to the US manifest destiny. The phoney assurences to Poland were a stalling tactic to protect the West from invasion, which eventually occurred anyhow, by making Hitler think he would face a two front war if he attacked the West with Poland on the eastern flank of the reich. Chamberlain had no intention of intervening on behalf of Poland if it was attacked. It wasn’t until Churchill became PM that the UK got active.
RP, I don’t know what you and BM don’t get about Hitler that every last drooling village idiot DOES get. He was a racist madman bent on murder and world conquest as is shown by history. What is so hard to grasp? This isn’t Stalinist propaganda as the Fascist BM claims because the Molotov signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis and would have kept to it had Hitler not attacked Russia. According to Alexander Wirth’s brilliant and exhaustive, Russia at War, Stalin retreated under Nazi attack despite his ability to face down the Panzer divisions with forward deployed Russian ones, a curious move on Stalin’s part. Only later did he counter attack after over a year of siege and suffering. The European theatre was a huge two front war which resulted in tens of millions of needless deaths because of Hitler’s deluded aggression which even many of his own generals ultimately opposed. The West tried to accomidate this madman for almost a decade after he assumed power. It ultimately became impossible.
RP, you must understand that BM is a psychotic and degenerate fascist because of his own personal problems. Nothing he says makes any sense. Everything else I’ve said about history should make sense to any reasonable being. So congratulations, RP my friend. You are no longer a neophite!! You have lost your political virginity right here on the ITT blog site.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 28, 2007 at 12:45 AM Now the Cat again appears around the grin, as there is no room for it to expand. Cabby, I find your argument somewhat circular. You’ll have to do better than that if you are going to convince those like RP who try and view what they read here objectively. There are many who doubt the veracity of Shirer’s tome, and Hitler’s intentions. If I were a judge in this debate I would have to give this page to Michael.
Afraid I picked the wrong character to play in this particular digital wonderland. Michael assumes incorrectly I am the owner of a vet clinic by the same name in Oakland. Surprised he would think Mark would use this name. Way to ‘catty’ for someone like him. I did used to know Michael though, but he would never guess who I am. For those who value individuals willing to embrace and publicly defend outrageously unpopular beliefs, he is a real treasure. I didn’t always feel this way, but with time I have come to realize such people are quite necessary. More on that later.
I have heard about a new vet in SF who specializes in cats that Mike should check out. I forget the name of his clinic, but apparently he is also a taxidermist, and on his sign it says: “One way or another, you’ll get your cat back.” If you don’t know where you want to go, directions are irrelevant. If you don’t believe me, go ask Alice.
Posted by Cheshire Cat on Jan 28, 2007 at 3:49 AM The go ask alice remark is telling. You must be on drugs if you think Mike makes more sense than me. Everyone knows the real history. You think Hitler was reasonable. You’re a sick moron too. In addtion you prattle on nonsensically like an idiot from California.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 28, 2007 at 9:07 AM WTH, THE CHRONOLOGY IS AFTER THE UK AND FRANCE DECLARED ON GERMANY. Frankly, I would have thought obvious. Chicago cabbie, I have refuted you many timeswith references ad infinitum. You are reduced to obscenities and ad hominems. Very few people know the real history of WW 1& @ because the victors write the history. Ok, Cheshire I apologize if I got you wrong and I thank you for your other comments which are the ;product of nuanced, critical thought. As Harry Elmer Barnes noted in Blasting The Historical Blackout the Shirer book is absolutely worthless in almost every respect, it would take another book of that size just to correct all the errors of fact and interpretation therein though Barnes made a decent start in a couple of monographs.
Thanks, RP and Cheshire Cat, for recognizing that Chicago cabbie has no sources except Stalinist Communist tainted ones like old fellow traveller Shirer, even CBS fired his butt in 1947 with no objections from Edward R. Murrow. You will notice that chicago cabbie doesn’t know me in the least but feels competent to converse on my alleged “psychological problems.” An old smear tactic of the Soviets as when Jewish attorneys for the Soviet spy, Alger Hiss, tried the same tactic on
Whittaker Chambers in 1948-49. Witness the notorious abuse of Soviet psychiatry and as Thomas Szasz has noted American psychiatry. Chicago favors the imprisonment of revisionists in Europe because he knows his cartoon demonology of Hitler and the increasingly discredited standard holocaust version can’t stand the light of debate. See the above referenced A.J.P. Taylor and David L. Hoggan books for a full rebuttal of Chicago’s Stalinist “history.” Again to repeat for the umpteenth
time Hitler would have never gone beyond Danzig & the Corridor if Poland had negotiated in good faith. The UK AND FRANCE DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY FIRST. AT THAT THEY CONVERTED THE GERMAN-POLISH CRISIS INTO A CONTINENT WIDE DISPUTE. HITLER HAD TO BEAT THEM TO THE PUNCH OR THE UK & FRANCE WOULD HAVE INVADED ALL THOSE COUNTRIES FIRST.
In Stalin’s case Hitler merely beat him to the ;punch, see Stalin’s War.
RP, I think the ihr.org is a good website on WW2, holocaust revisionism and Israel but also VHO,
antiwar.com and occasionally lewrockewell.com and many books by Harry Elmer Barnes, James
J. Martin, David L. Hoggan, F.J.P. Veale, Charles Austin Beard and others. America’s Second Crusade by William Henry Chamberlin is very as is Roosevelt’s Road To Russia by George N. Crocker, The Roosevelt Myth by John T. Flynn, Pearl Harbor by John Toland and The Origins Of The
Second World War by A.J.P. Taylor, Francis Neilson’s The Churchill Legend and his five volume
The Tragedy of Europe, a day by day diary of WW2 from 1939-1945.
Chicago, you kept ranting that no one agreed with me, now you see people do and they are waking up to you. I feel sorry for you as all your old cherished myths including the Hitler as Madman theory
are crumbling into dust. Oh, I forgot Saddam was a “madman” too, no doubt the President of Iran
for our next crusade to Save World Jewry, a rather OVERprivileged grouping, count me out. Hope
you’re tips are good so you can afford the shiksa whores.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 28, 2007 at 10:09 PM Rarely seen such a thread for ‘flaming’, and I do agree with Canuck—being civilised doesn’t cost much, and gets me further faster.
Viewing the present debacle in Iraq, and the fact we are still disputing the causes of and reasons for it, how equally difficult to be sure about the Danzig Corridor ?
Imputing geo-strategic reasons to Austen Chamberlain, and WS Churchill, which , perhaps, MAYBE, they were ignorant of, just goes to show how one can ‘over-interpret’ historical decisions.
Cabby may be correct as to Hitler’s mad ambitions to conquer the whole world. The networks of agents throughout South and North America, etc, did exist. So did the ‘Bund’.
Sometime back; I think cabby (?) said ” Iraq was a key ally against Islamic Fundamentalism”, which is false; Back in the Sixties, the Cold War enemy was any third world state where the leader looked like looking after his own country, a dangerous economic and political ‘nationalism’ which had to be squashed. Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, the various freedom movements in Portuguese Africa, and many many, many, more, were opposed , and usually destroyed, because they presented a threat to Western hegemony.
Never mind that the people could have lived in peace, the Cold War mentality resulted in massacres or long-drawn out wars, and usually the imposition of dictatorships.
RP recursive—( I have no comments on your hairstyle .) For much of my life I was mindlessly sympathetic towards Israel; too. Today I have strong criticisms of that State, but I do recognise that they have more freedom in the Press on some subjects, surprisingly, than our other countries. Occasionally I post to forums, giving a reference to Haaretz, thus avoiding the mindless accusations of antisemitism.
I agree with Mike that ” the perpetual Holocaust campaign” does result that “critics of Israel never get a fair hearing “.
If not a drumbeat for WAR, on thursday morning on BBC Radio4, the Chief Rabbi of the UK repeated the speech of Bibi Netanyahu the previous day, (my last post ) well what was that if not political propaganda, for an (eventual) WAR ?
Nasty territory. A far cry from a previous Jewish leader in the UK, 1980, Chairman of the Board of Deputies —” Zionism is not Judaism “. .
Getting back to the thread.
I reckon FTAs are a busted flush. As with the case of EFTA and the original smaller EEC, they had advantages, but once used to impose ‘FREE TRADE’ upon the less powerful became an instrument for exploitation.
The^poor become poorer.And the middle class get ‘disappeared’. Big surprise.
This article demonstrates how the huge US companies, and many smaller, have made billions of $ out of that Invasion and Occupation .
90 something percent wasted . Disappeared. GONE .
Tex tells us “Arabs Are Savages” ——so what is Halliburton ?
Posted by frog on Jan 29, 2007 at 12:17 AM Cabby-I truly love your image of me. I would make the switch in a second, orange hair and all. Sadly, my problem is from the other end of the spectrum-early onset dementia. I dont even remember how long ago it was I read Shirers Third Reich, but I recall wondering about the level of conjecture involved, and sensitivity to possible concerns of the victors. You didn’t mention my query about the Hess flight, and the fact that all those files on that episode have yet to be released. How much else might be being held back we are not even aware of? Like how many convoys did the allies allow to be sunk after they cracked the Enigma Code? If they stopped all intercepted attacks the Germans would have quickly done the math on probability and an enormous advantage would have been lost. So who which lives were sacrificed, and who decided?
I mention the above not as any rebuttal to your opinion that Hitler was a very bad guy, but to point out that full disclosure of the facts even 6 decades later puts in question interpretations of events. Also, I suspect it is part of our religious heritage to look for scapegoats, and to see things it absolute terms; good and evil. As I see it, all history is revisionist, and should remain so. To lay all the horrors of the last Great War on one man seems simplistic at best. If that is the case we can take it all out on frog. If he and his countrymen had only bought Adolph’s paintings, none of it would have likely ever occurred, right?
CC wrote: “RP, you must understand that BM is a psychotic and degenerate fascist because of his own personal problems. Nothing he says makes any sense.†Ok, lets assume you are absolutely right in your analysis of Mike. So if he claims Bush has been a terrible president-which he has-does his derangement prove in any way that it isn’t true? You also stated: “Everything else Ive said about history should make sense to any reasonable being. Ever hear of the ‘appeal to the crowd’ fallacy? If what you said does make sense to me, does that mean Im a reasonable person even though I may also believe I was abducted by aliens? If it does not make sense, then despite all other considerations I must be unreasonable? You might want to peruse this link on common fallacies in logic. And thanks for being gentle in taking my cherry; quite an event at my age. Of course I may have lost it before and like so much else just forgotten.
There are many examples on this page and elsewhere where you present your opinions quite cogently, CC, which is partly why I find this thread interesting and have taken the time to reply. You have clearly read a lot about our history. Mike claims he has responded to all your arguments elsewhere, and I shall have to do some reading through the archives to see if this is the case. I can certainly say he hasn’t done so here, as you have ignored many counterpoints of his. I kind of enjoy your flamings, but as Kermit notes it is a faster read without it.
Mike-I think your point about Shirer being fired with no objections from Murrow is a tad disingenuous. He was primarily a victim of McCarthyism and later-after Murrow himself was ousted for belatedly confronting it-he did apologize to Shirer. But I thought your mention of Szasz-another of my Ashkenazi heroes-in this context was spot on. I also agree that we are now seeking to ‘insanitize’ leaders in Iran. Thanks for the link-will check it out.
Frog-glad to see you back. Nobody I have ever met holds the Jews in higher regard than I do, but that does not include being an apologist for the actions of the government in Israel. It is one of the few democratic systems out there even less representative of the majority than our own. The multidimensional party layers of the Israeli assembly give the small minority of Orthodox fundamentalists an even greater influence than their ilk here in Jesusland. So this is another part of Mike’s viepoint that rings true, especially regarding the role the Israeli’s have played in the last couple decades at least. And the idea of imprisoning those who think the holocaust was a fiction created by Israel and the allies to me raises a red flag that perhaps this issue needs to be re-examined. No one doubts many were killed from all tribes, but intent and numbers might well have been exaggerated.
As the entire concept of race has long ago been discarded by scientists, it is surprising we still use the term racism. I would propose tribalism as a more accurate term, and I for one have long believed there are vast differences between tribes. Our DNA is more similar to Chimps than theirs is to Apes, and this shows just how much difference a few minor variations can make. Where we go astray is thinking one tribe is ultimately superior to another. Not many Jews or Asians in the NBA, or Blacks and Native Americans-many of which include those erroneously called ‘Hispanics’-among the Nobel winners. Yet there is real intelligence required in orchestrating a fast break like Magic Johnson did, and Al Einstein would have probably understood it about as well as Magic would Quantum Physics. Magic made more money, but there are far more jobs for those with Al’s type of skills, even for those in the AAA leagues. So short of putting an NBA or NFL team in every town, how do we end the current economic disparity, or appease those lacking the right kind of skills and inherited intelligence to advance? The Jews weren’t called the ‘people of the book’ for nothing.
All industrialized countries now face an enormous immigration problem. The backlash against it by the cultures being displaced grows stronger daily. Is ethnic filtering really much different than cleansing? Both are an inexorably entwined in mankind’s history. I believe Hitler was neither a devil nor a hero, and unless he and this period are viewed more objectively we may well make the same mistakes again. Or is this our destiny? Tell us frog. You French have a certain ‘Je n’est ce qua,’ but I don’t know what it is. And speaking of Haliburton, try Googling ‘brown root heroin.’
Posted by recursive prophet on Jan 29, 2007 at 6:21 AM BM,
You stated: “Hitler NEVER had any interest in conquering western Europe, he even conceded Alsace-Lorraine to France…”
My question was…The chronology of this eludes me. Was this before or after Hitler took Paris?
“WTH, THE CHRONOLOGY IS AFTER THE UK AND FRANCE DECLARED ON GERMANY. Frankly, I would have thought obvious.”Obvious only to you Mike. The Poland, France, Great Britain defense link was well known by all. The idea of Hitler offering to give anything away at that time is hilarious. I didn’t know you were such a comic.
————-cabdriver,
“HITLER WAS A VERY BAD GUY!! He invaded and conquered all of Europe from the English Channel to the Urals and in 1942 started working on engulfing the Meditteranian with Rommel in North Africa who was to come full circle back to Russia through Iran!! What a vision, huh?? By this time Churchill and Eden were in Power in the UK and FDR declared war along with the UK because we were hit by Japan at Pearl Harbor.”
Actually, Hitler declared war on the US (I think it was Dec.12th) after FDR announced, “...a state of war has existed…” following the attack on Pearl.
(Technically, due to the Axis mutual defense agreement between Germany, Italy and Japan, I guess we could say it is a moot point.)
——————-“The appeasement/collusion went on far to long and Hitler and his Nazis conquered and killed far to many people while we sat by and watched like morons.”
To put things in historical perspective — post WWl, the U.S. did its usual unilateral disarming procedure and had only an army of less than 200,000 officers and men and vitually no modern equipment. About all we capable of would have been beating an enemy over the head with the broomsticks which were being used for training purposes.
It does validate your classification as morons, however.
Note: We are not a hell of a lot better off today Clinton cut the military by a third after Reagan had restocked the Carter slashes. 40 percent of the U.S. Iraq force is Reserves and NG.
I find it interesting how people who have me labeled a facist are now catching the same pigeon-holing.
Perhaps the most instructive single thing to be learned at this site is how futile talk becomes when emotional response is so much easier. If we were in a single room it would get “bloody awful” very quickly.
Right Frog?
Posted by whattheheck on Jan 29, 2007 at 3:43 PM WTH, I can’t help it if you have bought into the standard media demonology portrait of Hitler. He in fact conceded Alsace-Lorraine, something Weimar would never consider. But don’t take my word for
it, see the Taylor and Hoggan books referenced above. If the UK and France had never declared war on Germany, the Germans would never have been in Paris. The Occupation was an administrative nightmare for them and unlike Israel, they never tried to expel the local population
to replace with Germans. So your Hitler was going to conquer the world line is false. He was more flexible than Weimar and the Kaiser. Carter never slashed the military, in fact his budget forecasts from 1980 on were actually higher than Reagan’s. In his last two years he started the Reaganite policy of slashing domestic spending and radically increasing military spending. Clinton was no dove and even had more military interventions than Bush1. We never saw any peace dividend.
We did not need a large army after WW1 and Eisenhower did rapidly demobilize even after WW2. We were never in any sort of danger and Pearl Harbor was solely an attack on US military bases 3,000 miles away from the mainland, property that we conquered 43 years earlier. Al Queda was only over here BECAUSE WE HAD BEEN OVER THERE FOR HALF A CENTURY BEFORE PROPPING UP ISRAEL AND THE SAUDIS, ETC. You are the last person to accuse others of emotionalism when you buy the whole establishment propaganda line on US wars hook, line and sinker. As I told the dimwitted cabbie Hitler would never have been across Europe if the UK and France had not declared war on him. His honoring the Jap Treaty by declaring war on the US was the dumbest he ever did, the Japs felt no such obligation towards the Soviets, Hitler’s main enemy. They were neutral until the USSR declared war on Japan after Hiroshima.
David, WTH will never get on any peace train. He LOVES war.
Frog, Hitler had fewer agents in Latin America than the US did and in fact FDR was forced to lie about a secret map allegedly showing German conquest of Latin America, it never existed and the actual threat to Latin America has always come from the USA. Actually the US has had bases in or treaties with 130 countries since WW2. Hitler was a piker compared to us.
RP, Shirer was no “victim” of McCarthyism, he was a Stalinist Red and CBS was right to fire his lying ass. It was three years before McCarthy and McCarthy was right quite a bit of the time. See
Arthur Herman’s 2000 book on him. Murrow was never ousted from CBS and was there seven years after his McCarthy show, he only left to join the JFK Admin as Director of the VOA. I hope
you have something more substantial than Shirer’s word that he allegedly apologized.
Szasz is Hungarian and very critical of Zionism, I don’t think he is Jewish. I used to think so but
someonw who knows him told me not so.
Race is a valid concept, not an end-all or be-all, but different races exist and the postwar Ashley Montague-UNESCO line of no races is disrepute among scientists except for a few Commie hacks.
I agree with your tribal designation but don’t think it excludes the concept of different races.
Appreciate your taking to task the cabbie and other perceptive remarks, ergo for the Frog.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 29, 2007 at 9:59 PM Canuck— your Peace Train pix should be compulsory watching for the undecided . ( Heck - it’s not a video ... )
Heck—- -In the past I have called you a"bloody-minded old thing” when you buy into this war of civilisations stuff, but since we agree so whole-heartedly on Globalisation, standards in public life, environment, etc, have long since agreed to differ on some points.
Also you are a highly critical researcher, a useful type to have around.
Roosevelt / Germany declaring War—- moot point .Maybe if we were in a single room, things would actually be more civilised ? You and I would swiftly disappear to examine the Model 1873 .45, , have a drink, visit your library, and so on. Others might similarly find mutual interests instead of going hand to hand.
RP—points excellently made on Israel and Zionism.
Maybe I wouldn’t go to prison here for saying it was more like Five million, not SIX, but I’m not going to test it.
I might get a hefty fine though. Will ask the next lawyer I see .
There seems to be a devaluation of thought and language when recourse to the HITLER image is continuously needed.
You put it well——“I believe Hitler was neither a devil nor a hero, and unless he and this period are viewed more objectively we may well make the same mistakes again. Or is this our destiny?” .
Ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances make excellent devils, the banality of Evil, as she wrote.
Posted by frog on Jan 29, 2007 at 10:09 PM I doubt it was more than one million. Two million would be shocking.
Ah, the evil of banality….........
Posted by blondemike on Jan 29, 2007 at 11:10 PM David-didnt get on the train, sigh. My modem couldn’t catch up with it.
Mike-I thought for a moment there I was going to again stand corrected, about Szasz being Jewish. It has happened so often after reading much about a certain topic I would come upon someone far above the rest and later learn they were Ashkenazi, I have in a few cases assumed incorrectly this was the case.
I found several mentions that Szasz was born Jewish, but to also read an interesting article about its influence on him from another doctor who knew him for 40 years, here is a link.
“Szasz’s valuation of the individual and of individual rights under the rule of law in an open society also has a personal context. He was born Jewish in Hungary in 1920 when anti-Semitic Fascism was on the rise.”Murrow’s relationship with CBS was never easy, and after being fired from CBS in 1961, There seems to be some dispute about why TPTB at CBS decided to air I Love Lucy instead of first Senate hearings on Vietnam knowing Murrow would resign if they did. However, he did in fact resign and on this I do again stand in error. Regarding the apology, the Times article below gives no source, and I didn’t find anything else, so unless you have a source-link lets call this one a maybe. At any rate I often get facts confused and appreciate being corrected. Thanks!!
Regarding the term race, I would highly recommend Milford Wolpoff’s Race and Human Evolution. It was an unscientific, generalized concept from conception. If there is such a thing, can you name the different races? Been a lot of mixing going way back, and I think in time the Genome project will sort it out. Until then I think ethnicity and tribes are more definitive. We do agree there are substantial differences in these groupings. As Einstein’s mom used to say; Al, its all relative.
Kermit-your last line reminds me of W. Watch out lowering the numbers on holocaust. Wonder how low you can go without getting the thought police on you? Better just stick with the Mohamed cartoons. Muslims are renowned for their sense of humor.
Posted by recursive prophet on Jan 30, 2007 at 12:40 AM Negroid, Caucasian, Mongoloid (Asians, not retards). This is pretty standard in anthropology books, see Michael Levin’s Why Race Matters. See The Bell Curve for that matter. It doesn’t matter if a race is pure but there are different races, I don’t see this as controversial. Putnam’s
Race and Reason is ok but now even most of the left recognizes race. Jews are a distinct race as my Jewish wife of 18 years would be the first to tell you and until recent decades there was very little intermarrige between Jews and Gentiles. C.P. Snow and others thought Jews had higher IQ’s because they married within their group. But whatever the truth may be most do regard themselves as a separate race or group with their diseases like Tay-Sachs, etc. I’m talking about Ashkenazim Jews here. I’ll look at the book you referenced.
Murrow left CBS in early 61 to work for JFK, where did you get that he was fired ? He had his famous documentary on migrant workers as late as Christmas, 1960. Maybe I missed something at the time. Wait I just noticed your qualifying remarks here. Let me look into this some more.
I was closely following politics at then age 16 in the DC area and think I would have remembered if he’d been fired. He was still their top news star at the time.
I originally thought Szasz was Jewish too but part of that is a stereotype about shrinks but if true then I stand corrected. I know he vehemently dislikes Zionism.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 30, 2007 at 2:11 AM Recursive Prophet, sorry to hear you missed the “train” link. Rest assured I am saving you a seat, my friend, because I know you would be onboard (online) if it were not for your modem.
Let me tell you about it ...The peace train link is a picture slide show with Cat Stevens singing his “peace train” song. The pictures are from Iran and show a beautiful country and beautiful people that are no different than you, me or the rest of the human race. People who, for the most part, want to live in peace.
Too many people are still not able to see that people from different countries, races and cultures are the same as ourselves. We should look at our neighbours, however distant, and see us, not them. Equals, not rivals. Friends, not enemies.
The difference is not in the person judged, but in the the person judging.
When we can call the other a friend it is not them that has changed for the better, it is us.
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 30, 2007 at 2:37 AM Mikey preaching racial superiority. What a shocking surprise.
“The world has sufficient capacity for settlement, but we must finally break away from the notion that a certain percentage of the Jewish people are intended, by our dear God, to be the parasitic beneficiary of the body, and of the productive work, of other peoples. ”
A. Hitler Reichstag Speech January 30, 1939Seig Heil Mikey…......
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 30, 2007 at 3:05 AM I believe that the UK and France declared war on Hitler only after he invaded Poland. BM, you are a sick fascist. Anyone that you disagree with you call a Red. You advocate murder and fascism. You are simply a more rightist version of Bush and Co. with your advocacy of fascism and repression. You believe in war but against countries that never menaced us like Venezuela and other left countries. Everyone knows your story. You slowly lost your mind in Oakland going from being some kind of Trotskyist in the seventies to being a fascist like you are now. Some say a personal tragedy is to blame. How sad. I don’t mean to be so insensitive but you really shouldn’t take your grief out on others. It isn’t fair. Your loveaffair with the late Joe McCarthy is really pathetic. So long moron. You should check in to a local mental ward.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 30, 2007 at 6:57 AM Mike-you named the classic 3 races, though I believe they soon added Australian Aborigines as they couldn’t explain many discrepancies between them and Negroids. Anyway, this concept goes back a couple centuries, and as I said has no science behind it. You even said Jews were a race, when initially you named 3. Malaysians, Mestizos, Mulattos, Hungarians, Finns, all defy such lumping into even 10 groups. Look at the difference between Iraqis and Chinese. Grouping all these ethnic tribes as Asians, or French and Scotts as Caucasians, would be problematic at best, and of limited use. Re: the Murrow question, I now agree with you that his belatedly confronting McCarthy being why he was boxed into resignation is speculative at best. ‘
David-last I heard ol Cat was singing “I’m being followed by an Air Marshall, Air Marshall, Air Marshall..’You know the tune. You wrote: “Too many people are still not able to see that people from different countries, races and cultures are the same as ourselves.‗Tell you what. I would bet that you have never spent a substantial amount of time living amongst those mostly from a different culture/ethnicity. The clear answer to the profound question bequeathed to us by the Prophet King “Can’t we all get along, ‘is obviously NO. Through advances in DNA research we now know we are biologically far more different from our own siblings than was previously believed.
I have lived primarily within the Southern Native American culture for more years than any other, and of course speak Spanish, our common language. These immigrants are erroneously classified as ‘Hispanic,’ though on average 90% of their DNA is indigenous. My living among them was mostly by chance, but I found many aspects of their culture preferable to my own. This said, the two are very different. I don’t see it in terms of any kind of overall superiority of one group over another, but it all comes back to nurture. Not that of ones childhood, but the demands of the environment over countless generations. And we didn’t get this far down the evolutionary trail without all of us acquiring a formerly necessary dose of xenophobia, David. And as Jefferson once pointed out, after all the abuse these exploited cultures have suffered at our hands, could you blame them for feeling a certain lingering collective resentment? Most won ‘t of course, but how do you know which ones? There is little trust or common ground
TI-did I miss something? Could you paste on a quote in your next post where Mike wrote anything about racial superiority? He mentioned “The Bell Curve,â€a well written and little read book. I even found the 250 pages of footnotes interesting. Many only read chapter 13, the one of 24? that dealt with tests comparing the performance of various ethnic groups. Have you read it? The authors didn’t do the testing, by the way. I see Mike more as an outspoken cultural realist. And regarding him being a Nazi, his wife is Jewish I understand. Do you suppose he is holding her prisoner?
Cabby-why do I think you didn’t read that logic page I posted? The rumor I heard is that Mike is working for some Psychology Institue that pays him to insult people online so they will vent their anger at his strawman rather than their families and at work. I understand he gets a bonus for every rant he can generate online. Bet he LOVES you!
Back off topic. I believe, like most others here, our motives in invading Iraq are due far more to furthering the interests of large corporations and our continued plunge into debt-enabled consumption than any concerns about Terrorism or helping others. And consider this: if the faces of crying mothers and children Americans saw on their TV screens were say Germans or Italians, people more tribally similar to the dominate culture here, how long do you think we would allow it to go on? Look at the press coverage 70 killed in London received compared to similar numbers daily in Iraq? We compete for dwindling resources while the over two thirds of the planet’s inhabitants, comprising the 3rd world and beyond, must be told they can’t be allowed to live as we do; a billion Chinese driving cars? Sadly I still believe most on top would prefer eliminating the poor rather then make the dramatic changes in lifestyle that would be required to accommodate their progress. As they flood across the borders into Oz the fences will get higher, but will only redirect the flow. And the question about the difference between ethnic cleansing and filtering remains. Based on the recent and growing shift to the right in Europe, as refugees from the WTO pogrom pour into the peninsula, maybe Hitler was just ahead of his time. What IS the politically feasible solution? Would anyone care to argue we are not currently moving toward a ‘final’ one?
Posted by recursive prophet on Jan 30, 2007 at 7:17 AM Texass, after you’re horrific racist anti-Arab rant, PLEASE SPARE US THE LECTURES ON “RACISM.” This is like the town drunk lecturing on sobriety. Hitler’s quote was MILD compared to you’re own racism on Arabs.
Chicago, Hitler only invaded Poland AFTER the Polish Fascist Junta refused to negotiate over the return of the German city of Danzig in good faith. By declaring war on Germany the UK and France turned a local crisis into a world war. I was never a Trotskyite or a fascist. Everyone who disagrees with you gets labeled a nazi or anti-semite or crazy. Frankly, who gives a damn what you think ? That I am for war against any Latin American countries is absurd. I opposed the Contras and US
foreign policy in general as well as in particular in Latin America. McCarthy was right about people like you, apologists for Communist regimes in the USSR, China and Indochina that killed tens of millions of individuals. Take you’re shitty little Israel as a French diplomat labeled that statist-collectivist tribal cesspool and shove it up you’re hemorrhoid ridden behind, Chicago. This better be the last I hear from you.
RP, how did you find out about the psychology institute ? Good detective work, dude ! I agree that there are three main groupings with plenty of offshoots with varying characteristics. Our difference here may be more apparent than real. The nature v. nurture thing is boring to me because they interact with one another rather than being either/or. Of course in this retarded country 70% don’t believe in evolution but in Jeezez.
I think the only reason Murrow resigned was to work for JFK but if I’m wrong I’m happy to stand corrected. It took him over four years to get around to McCarthy and then it was a hatchet job. Some of it was real but much was a smear.
Israel is the reason we invaded Iraq, neither big oil or corporate advocated the invasion nor has benefited from it. Too much of the left won’t confront this because they are intimidated by hysterical nuts like Chicago cabbie. I tell people like him to shove off. Either we have a rational conversation or we have none.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 30, 2007 at 5:57 PM I would bet that you have never spent a substantial amount of time living amongst those mostly from a different culture/ethnicity.
Recursive Prophet, I grew up in a rural area with a substantial Native American population and counted many as my friends. We played cowboys and indians (not very politically correct, I know, but we didn’t care) with real horses (and real indians) and since the cowboys were outnumbered by indians they always won our games. Now I am grown and living in a different part of the country with a large Sikh population. So now I have some East Indian friends. I have gone to their temple with them and participated in various festivals. I really like their food and anyone (even a white guy like me) can drop by one of the local temples at meal time and enjoy some good food. I only know enough of the language to say ‘sat sri akal’ (hello) and ‘shukriya’ (thank you) but a smile means the same in all languages.
And we didn’t get this far down the evolutionary trail without all of us acquiring a formerly necessary dose of xenophobia,
Yeah, Recursive Prophet, and now we had better get over our xenophobia or we may find the evolutionary trail has reached a dead end.
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 30, 2007 at 6:53 PM Of course in this retarded country 70% don’t believe in evolution but in Jeezez.
Mike, some people, myself included, can believe in Jesus and accept evolution as well.
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 30, 2007 at 6:54 PM BM,
It is quite obvious that they Nazis planned to conquer all of Europe even before the invasion of Poland. Documents exist to show that Hitler never intended to allow an independant Polish state to exist when in fact it hadn’t between 1793 and 1919 when it was reestablished by the Versailles Treaty. The Poles did negotiate in good faith. They offered Hitler a corridor to Danzig as well as extra-territorial area to construct transportation lines. The Nazis had already controlled Danzig politically by virtue of the City Council. It was not necessary for Germany to control the foreign policy of Danzig or annex it to the Reich. It was enough of a compromise that Poland offered what it did. It was also not necessary for Germany to attack Western European countries which had planned to attack before the UK/French attack on Poland. And you never justified Hitlers attack on Czechoslovakia and its subsequent dismemberment.
The real reason all this was tolerated by the UK was that Chamberlain thought he was in an active alliance with the Nazis against the USSR. When this was seen not be the case and it became obvious that the USSR was essential to the defeat of Hitler the War against Hitler began in earnest. This was all Hitler’s fault.
You also stupidly associate the Jews and Israel with the USSR which not only persecuted the Jews but supported the Arab proxies against Israel. True Stalin aided Israel at first. After the first war he turned toward support of the Arabs. It seems his initial support of Israel was to remove the UK from the area. He soon saw that Israel, led by a right-wing social democrat like Ben Gurion, would inevitably be tied to the West (US) diplomatically. Aid and support was duly withdrawn after the very first Arab/Israeli ceasefire ended in July 1948. As you also know. Jews experienced persecution under Stalin. He began to deport them to the Gulags as well. Though much of the Soviet Anti-semitism was exaggerated in the 1970s and 80s for cold war purposes it did exist. There was really no reason to keep Natan Scharansky in Prison for 18 years.
You associate Israel with communism and the Russians. This is antiquated Nazi racist hysteria. Israel is a conservative US ally. It is also a highly globalized capitalist country whose non-producing economy is as big as some of the Gulf Oil producers. This is due to US FDI and a focus on high tech. There are many big US firms with strong Israeli connections like Intel and Bio-logic. The latter is based in the Chicago area. Israel’s GDP currently exceeds $150 billion. Despite massive poverty in that country both Jewish and Arab it is a profitable place to invest. Over a fifth of Israel’s gross fixed capital formation is foreign owned much of it US. The Arab Gulf states need to sell their oil. They really don’t care about the Palestinians. I think this explains US support for Israel. Outside of pure bigotry I don’t know what Nazi sympathizers like you don’t understand.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jan 30, 2007 at 10:24 PM Chicago, you repeat your undocumentedentirely spurious assertions. See the AJP Taylor and David Hoggan books as wellas Hoggan’s 1948 Harvard Doctoral Thesis prepared under William L. Langer on the German-Polish crisis. The Germans did not control Danzig and the City Council was subordinate to the Polish Government which was sitting on stolen German and had no intention of negotiating in good faith. Poland never offered any compromise, their behavior was analogous to the Israelis in the Occupied Territories today, the only reasonable solution was them to get out. No other solution with an Occupier is possible. Your remarks on Chamberlain are pure Stalinist Communist Party Popular Front Party Line Bullshit. Under Stalin anti-semitism was a capital offense and the Jews controlled the NKVD & all police & propaganda agencies from 1920 to 1948. A recent Israeli popular site to which I earlier referred you had a piece on the tens of millions of Russians, Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Lithunians and Chechens murdered by Jewish Commissars under Lenin, Trotsky and then mostly under Stalin. Stalin even spoke yiddish in his home. Stalin aided Israel, not the Arabs, in the 1948 war by having his new satellite, Czechoslovakia, funnel arms on a large to the Zionist paramilitary forces. Later after 1949 Stalin turned anti-Jewish but still never harmed Jews as he had so many others with Jewish help. The murderous Jewess Anna Pauker, implemented Stalinist terror in Rumania after WW2 and the shortlived Jewish Bela Kun regime in Hungary committed scores of atrocities before they were overthrown. The Soviets didn’t aid Nasser on any real scale till after Dulles turned down the Aswan Dam financing in 1955. Stalin never deported Jews to the Gulag and up until the early fifties, NOT 1948, he had warm relations with Israel. The whole myth of the “persecution” of Soviet Jewry is a big lie on a holohoax scale. Jews have neen mass murderers and persecutors whenever they have had the chance EXACTLY AS ALL OTHER PEOPLES.’ I never said they were worse than gentiles but only that their stinky shit doesn’t smell like perfume. All the Arab countries care about and deeply support the Palestinians, you are merely recycling the Zionist propaganda about “Arabs” being responsible the Palestinians plight. They are not, ISRAELI JEWS ARE. Israel is neither conservative nor a US ally as their traitor agents like Pollard prove. They are NOT a productive economy but a parasite economy on the US. They are granted special free trade privileges by the US and Europe because of the holohoax crap. They have stolen over 250 BILLION in US tax funds since 1948, 99% of it since 1967 as I explained before. They get US business investment because the Zionist Lobby cut US investment in Arab countries that boycott Israel in 1976, 31 years ago.
The Arab States had quite an effective boycott of US in 1973-74 and they can do it again, sell THEIR
oil elsewhere.
Israel has a Fifth Column of traitors like you over here. We get AIPAC to register as an agent of Israel and the ADL too, then no more big US investment (mostly Jewish) in Israel. Cut out the tax exemption for Israeli Bonds and end dual citizenship. AIPAC and the Shoah Business lie explain US support for Israel, no twisted Marxist reasoning is necessary here.
Munich was great but Hitler should never have gone into Prague, he was right about the Sudetenland, wrong on Bohemia. In any case, hardly proof of “world conquest.”
Posted by blondemike on Jan 30, 2007 at 10:52 PM Ah David, one of the rare evolved Christians, eh? I see I again stand corrected and you have been exposed to different cultures. Did you truly find the two to be the same? Certainly there are many shared traits between individuals of all tribes. But when you zoom out to the larger view, some stark differences appear.
As you may have noticed, I try and quantify reality to the best of my limited abilities. When I look at the numbers for our indigenous populations, it seems they are the most handicapped in coping with the rapid changes thrust upon them. It is the one distinguishable group that-casinos aside-is struggling even more than Blacks in our brave new world. Lower literacy, education, income, life expectancy; higher rates of suicide, infant mortality, unemployment, etc.. There are many possible reasons. Do they matter? The main, indisputable point I’m making here is they have had the most trouble adapting to the culture which outsiders from very different tribes far away have created.As our diseases and wars wiped out most of the natives here in the northern two thirds of our hemisphere, demographics were never an issue. This is not the case further south. The Spaniards didn’t bring their women, and cavorted with the natives. This created what we call the ‘Mestizos,’ and the Hispanic myth. Again if one examines the numbers, it is easy to see they are still primarily indigenous people that have just been more assimilated. They carry with them the ancient DNA. Considering the vast majority of their forefathers had no form of written language, it comes as no surprise to me their aptitude for learning within our educational structure-based around reading-is not equal to those who’s roots are in Eurasia. But whatever the reason, en masse they continue to fall behind in all ways except propagation. The demographic dilemma they now present is only beginning to be acknowledged, and I believe things will eventually turn very ugly indeed. We are now afraid to even consider the possibility that our differences genetically might extend beyond physical appearance. And even if the nurture camp is right, and only because of cultural bias in the schools and at home do they lag behind, how do you change it? A dead end, perhaps, but might it not be because our attempts to overcome this ingrained xenophobia will result in devolution?
Mike-glad to see your meal ticket is still getting punched by CC and others. Hear you are up for employee of the month at the Institute. They love draining the ire from those like Cabby that deal with the public. Think of all those in Chicago that had a much nicer ride (not to mention the shiska whores) yet will never know it was due to your tireless efforts. Keep up the good work.
Posted by recursive prophet on Jan 31, 2007 at 12:30 AM Just as we had no follow-up plan for the insurgency after the Iraqi army left the field of battle and blended back in with the civilians, we now have no plan B for when the surge also fails. And what of the increasing debt we shall incur and the long term effect on military recruitment?
“Anthropologist Gregory Bateson tells about New College, in Oxford, England. The main hall there was built in the early 1600s with oak beams 40 feet long and 2 feet thick. Recently they began to suffer from dry rot, and administrators couldn’t find English oaks large enough to replace them. A young faculty member said, “Why don’t we ask the college forester if some of the lands given to Oxford might have enough trees to call upon?” They brought in the forester, who said, “We’ve been wondering when you would ask this question. When the present building was constructed three hundred and fifty years ago, the architects specified that a grove of trees be planted and maintained to replace the beams in the ceiling when they suffered from dry rot.” Bateson’s comment was, “That’s the way to run a culture.”
Posted by Eric Blair on Jan 31, 2007 at 12:44 AM RP, I understand that the Spanish wiped out tens of millions of “Indians” south of the Rio Grande, several million in Hispaniola (Haiti & Dominican Republic) and several million up here too. So although they intermarried with them, they were also the bloodiest bastards in history, particularly the tens of millions of “witches” and black cats killed during the Inquisition. One of the Jeezez freaks in libertarian ranks tried to deny this but he had no contradictory refs.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 31, 2007 at 5:43 PM exposed to different cultures. Did you truly find the two to be the same?
Recursive Prophet, the same but different. What I did find consistently the same is some people’s hateful (fearful?) disposition towards others simply because they have different colored skin, live differently, talk differently or believe differently. When I was younger the intolerance baffled me and I was always asking my parents “why?”. They explained but I was sceptical. As I grew up I noticed the bigotry more and more but have never been able to fully understand it.
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Jan 31, 2007 at 5:57 PM Obergruppenführer Blonde Mike.
National Socialism is a dead horse. Quit beating it.David, Recursive, ect.
Having fought Arabs and lived among the filthy buggers for 1095 days. I have some experience with what a “peaceful” people they really are. Racism is usually described as hating someone for the color of their skin. However most Arabs share my skin color so racism is not a valid description of my sentiments. Arabs have chosen to condemmn themselves to a self perpetuating cycle of hatred, ignorance, and death. I despise that mindset and I don’t really give a shit about who did what to whom. We all have to live on this planet.
Posted by texasindependent on Jan 31, 2007 at 7:32 PM TexASS, more anti-Arab racism and racist generalizations from the wannabe redneck taco vendor. National socialism is alive and well in America, it’s just called conservatism here. Collective generalizations OF ANY KIND are what the PC folks call racism. I’m sorry if those nasty A-Rabs beat yo’ po’ leetle beaner wiener but you were over on THEIR turf, monkeyface, you deserve to get your black ass beaten and hard. Now get me that order now ! Extra sour cream too !
PS Don’t those San Antone papers make the best Me Hi Can umbrellas ?
PPS Look at it from the A-Rabs view, they had to smell you’re stinky ass for almost three years…........
PPPPPPPPPHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by blondemike on Jan 31, 2007 at 9:29 PM Sad news——Chicago cabbie was killed in an accident today. The Chicago Police were able to determine that his alcohol level at the time of expiration was 0.23. In Illinois .08 is considerably legally drunk. Let’s join his shiksas in wishing him a safe journey during that long southerly voyage his soul has now undertaken. If any imposters attempt to steal his credentials here let’s flush them out.
Posted by blondemike on Jan 31, 2007 at 11:45 PM More bad news—-Redhorse’s parole was revoked a month ago and he’s back in the slammer. Oh, well, life goes on and watch you’re behind, old bro.’
Posted by blondemike on Jan 31, 2007 at 11:47 PM BM
Your assertion that Stalin spoke Yiddish in his home is laughable. You are a true white trash moron. You are a pathetic piece of crap. Keep on pushin’ that Hoggan guy. He is white trash as well.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Feb 1, 2007 at 3:22 AM It appears the attempt at a cease fire is over?
Posted by David in Canuckistan on Feb 1, 2007 at 6:02 AM First of all, the REAL Chicago cabbie was killed while driving drunk the other night, so who are you, faker ?
Second, Uncle Joe did indeed speak Yiddish as a second language in his home.
Third, Dave Hoggan forgot more about history than you (whomever you are) ever knew.
David, whoever this faker pretending to be the late Chicago Cabbie is, we will still emit an aura of great brotherhood and goodwill here. Occasionally these COINTELPRO try to infiltrate. Ignore them.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 1, 2007 at 6:03 PM David
Conflict is the natural state of homo sapiens.BM…........I like that name it’s a descriptive term that suits you quite well.
Your Arab sweethearts never came close to accomplishing any sort of ‘ass beating” A few mortar shells,sniping, suicide bombers and an IED or two is about all they are good for. I met many decent honorable Iraqi’s but they were Kurd’s.
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 1, 2007 at 6:31 PM TexASS, that was only because you are the type of racist lowlife physical coward who kills people from behind secured postions. The Kurds thought you’re ass smelled stinky too. They are the biggest white supremacists in the region and if you were mostly hanging around Kurds that means you were doing very little actual fighting. I always vote against Vet bonds and recognize killers like you as the scum of the earth. You are pathetic.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 1, 2007 at 9:18 PM From Yahoo.com GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Fatah and Hamas gunmen attacked two universities and a radio station Friday in the deadliest single day of their violent power struggle. With the death toll climbing to 17 — including four children — the two sides declared another truce…........More than 100 Palestinians have been killed in internal violence since the Islamic militant Hamas, which rejects Israel’s right to exist, won parliamentary elections last year and ousted Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’ more moderate Fatah movement from power.
The “peaceful” Palestinians actions scream louder than any words yet again. When no one else is available Arabs kill each other.
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 3, 2007 at 2:19 AM Tex,
Thanks for the great post. This is something for BM to chew on. I’m sure, however, that he’ll find some “blame Israel” angle. He always does.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Feb 3, 2007 at 9:30 AM from yahoo…....http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070204/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
“A suicide bomber driving a truck loaded with a ton of explosives hidden beneath cooking oil, canned food and bags of flour obliterated a Baghdad food market on Saturday, killing at least 121 people in one of the most fearsome attacks in the capital since the U.S. invasion in 2003.
Violence shattered the northern city of Kirkuk as well. Eight bombs exploded within two hours, the opening blast a suicide car bomber apparently targeting the offices of the Kurdish Democratic Party of Massoud Barzani, leader of Iraq’s autonomous Kurdish region.
Two people were killed in that blast and four nearby homes destroyed. There was no claim of responsibility for the series of bombings in the oil-rich city where Arabs, Kurds and Turkomen all claim ascendance.
Sunni insurgents were seen as likely suspects, however, as many of them have fled to the north of the country in a bid to escape the crackdown in the capital.
In the Baghdad blast, Maj. Gen. Jihad al-Jabiri of the Iraqi Interior Ministry said one ton of explosives ripped through the Sadriyah market.
“There are still bodies under the rubble,” he said. In an outburst of frustration and anger he called for the government to “deport (non-Iraqi) Arabs immediately.”
The general’s comments reflected growing displeasure inside the government of Shiite Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki with neighboring Syria, which Baghdad charges has done too little to close its border to Sunni militants.
In his second heated verbal attack on Damascus in two days, government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh said “50 percent of terrorism enters Iraq from Syria, and we have evidence” to prove that.”
The Iraqi “insurgency” is composed of Sunni Arab young males. The vast majority are not Iraqi but Saudi, Jordanian, Syrian, and various other Islamic countries the United States has diplomatic ties. Most are educated and come from wealthy families. The vast majority have been radicalized via the internet and have no real ties to organized terror groups. And the majority of their victims? Civilians. Many of our “allies” either support terrorism outright or allow various groups to fundraise in the open.
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 4, 2007 at 6:57 AM The REASON there is Palestinian Arab violence IS IN RESPONSE TO ISRAEL’S BRUTAL OCCUPATION OF EXACTLY 40 YEARS, WHICH HAS NEVER ENDED IN GAZA. They periodically shut down the airport and all access roads and block the port. Try living under Occupation for generations and even a certified Shit In His Panties Racist Beaner like you, TexASS, will resort to violence.And the violence in Iraq ONLY STARTED AFTER THE US INVASION AND OCCUPATION. There was no violence under Saddam Hussein except for a very few selected political opponents and they were either leftists or fundies, so who gave a shit ? The actual state terrorism is done by the US first and foremost and then our masters in Tel Aviv secondly. Interesting that Chicago crabs agrees with you here, he tries to pose as a lefty sympathetic to the Palestinians but underneath he’s a Racist Zionist like all Zionists. Racism is actually redundant after you mention Zionism. BTW, little TacoCon the insurgency IS OVERWHELMINGLY NATIVE IRAQIS, BOTH SHIA AND SUNNI. And why should Israel have “a right to exist” when they obliterated the right of the Palestinians to exist in 1947-48 ? I never heard of any individual having a right to exist either even in the wildest welfare state !
Posted by blondemike on Feb 5, 2007 at 6:58 PM Hamas Charter .....
Article 31: “The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other.”
Note the “under the wing of Islam” section. And I love the “humanistic movement” I suppose sucide bombers are really trying to help.
Article 28: “The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion ... It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions ...”
Oh my god the Lion’s Club are secret Zionist oppressors….I thought they drove little cars in parades.
Introduction: Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and God’s victory is realised.
Their words again not mine.
The Iraqi “insurgency” is composed of mainly foreign fighters. The money men are Iraqi Baathists and Fedayeen. The suicide bombers killing the Iraqi civilian population are Sunni Arabs from Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and North Africa. The Shia are the majority of Iraq and were brutalized under Saddam. Now they are the ones in power and the Sunni are pissed and taking it out on the world at large.
Once again proof that Arabs are ignorant savages that will kill each other as practice for Jihad against the West.
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 5, 2007 at 8:12 PM Again, you totally evade all the many salient points that I and others here have brought to reiterate you’re vicious anti-Arab racism. Israel should be replaced by a democratic secular state, even inside Israel itself 25% of the population is NonJewish. Suppose with only 3% or less of a Jewsih population here we would declare the US to be a Christian or Gentile state. How the hypocritical supporters of racist Israel would howl ! I could easily quote extreme statements from Ben Gurion, Golda Meir, Netanyahu, Begin, Kahane and many other Israeli political figures too. You are no different from the KKK. And the insurgency is 100% Iraqi and is aimed at our illegal occupation.
I could also quote the Me Hi Can crime stats, your people commit more crime both absolutely & proportionately than any other group except one and it’s not Arabs. Go to the American Renaissance.com website for interesting Me Hi Can crime stats. Once again, proof that all of your people are illegals who should be deported. Ike had operation Wetback in the 50s, sent a million beaners packing. We need one now for the 12 million illegals here from Me Hi Co.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 5, 2007 at 10:27 PM BM.. Sunni Arabs are the “insurgency” The vast majority of fighters are not Iraqi. Having actually been to Iraq unlike you, I dismiss you and your opinion as Chimpsky bullshit..
Mexicans don’t build bomb belts and kill civilians BM. That qualifies them as human. Unlike Palestinians who I will allow to speak for themselves.Faisal Husseini - PA Minister of Jerusalem Affairs ( A moderate)
“We may lose or win [tactically] but our eyes will continue to aspire to the strategic goal, namely, to Palestine from the river (i.e. Jordan) to the sea (i.e. the Mediterranean). Whatever we get now cannot make us forget this supreme truth.”
Sheikh Ikrama Sabri - PA-appointed Mufti of Jerusalem
“No stone of the Western Wall has any connection to Hebrew history ...
Abdel Jawad Saleh, PA’s Minister of Agriculture
“The Jews seek to conquer the world…We must expose the Zionist-Colonialist plot and its goals, which destroy not only our people but the entire world.”WAFA (official Palestinian News Agency), Qata, May 21 2001…...
Israel is “starting a new genocide against the Palestinian people by poisoning them, using poisoned candy bags dropped from airplanes.”Dr. Lufti Abd al-Azim, Al-Ahram Television commentary
“The first thing that we have to make clear is that no distinction must be made between the Jew and the Israeli….The Jew is a Jew, through the millennia….in spurning all moral values, devouring the living and drinking his blood for the sake of a few coins. The Jew, the Merchant of Venice, does not differ from the killer of Deir Yasin or the killer of the camps. They are equal examples of human degradation. Let us therefore put aside such distinctions and talk about Jews.”Sheikh Ibrahim Mudayris, Friday Sermon, PA TV, May 13, 2005
The day will come and we shall rule America The day will come and we shall rule Britain, we shall rule the entire world, except the Jews. The Jews will not live under our rule agreeably permanently, since they have been treacherous in nature throughout history. A day will come when all shall rest from the Jews, even the tree and the stone, which have suffered from them. Listen to your Beloved [Muhammad], who tells you about the most dire end of the Jews. The tree and the stone want the Muslim to bring every Jew to his end. You all know the Hadith.”
“O brother believers, the criminals, the terrorists - are the Jews, who have butchered our children, orphaned them, widowed our women and desecrated our holy places and sacred sites. They are the terrorists. They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: ‘Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them, and will relieve the minds of the believers…”
Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Member of the Palestinian Authority-appointed “Fatwa Council” and former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza. 13 October 2000“Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them - and those who stand by them - they are all in one trench, against the Arabs and the Muslims because they established Israel here, in the beating heart of the Arab world, in Palestine. They created it to be the outpost of their civilization and the vanguard of their army, and to be the sword of the West and the crusaders, hanging over the necks of the monotheists, the Muslims in these lands. They wanted the Jews to be their spearhead…”
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 6, 2007 at 6:04 PM I can make up fake quotes too, you got these straight from Israeli propaganda sources. Racist beaner, racist beaner, come suck my big white wiener. No wonder you were dishonorably discharged.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 7, 2007 at 1:02 AM Anyone who wants the lowdown on TexASS’s group please go to the American Renaissance website, they have the crime stats and stories galore about legals and illegals of the Me Hi Can variety. Juicy quotes too.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 7, 2007 at 5:27 PM No one has to “fake” Arab quotes. They provide a wealth of “peaceful” quotes for anyone who cares to read them. My personal favorite is Usamas declaration of war from August 23 1996.
“We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place on 1983 CE (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in less than twenty four hours!But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; whereafter vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the “heart” of every Muslim and a remedy to the “chests” of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu. ”
(Beruit and Mogadishu were UN flagged peace keeping missions. Yemen is a regular port of call for the Navy.)
” Those youths know that their rewards in fighting you, the USA, is double than their rewards in fighting some one else not from the people of the book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by killing you. An infidel, and enemy of God like you, cannot be in the same hell with his righteous executioner. Our youths chanting and reciting the word of Allah, themost exalted:”
“insurgents” or “haji” like this kind of guarantee.
This could go on forever…...
Here is the second fatwa from Bin Hiding dated Feb 23 1998…...
“Third, if the Americans’ aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews’ petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel’s survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula. “
Sounds like Osama posts on ITT.
And the best quote of all….....
“The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies—civilians and military—is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, “and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,” and “fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah.”
There can be no peace until one side submits. I refuse to submit.
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 8, 2007 at 1:53 AM The quotes are faked, conjured up out of Israeli agit-prop sites, the context is missing, the doublestandard racism is obvious, the lack of historical accuracy is all too apparent, the racist and religious bigotry and hatred is rampant, the fact that there were no Islamic fundies on any
crusades thirty years is deliberately avoided, US support for the brutal Shah of Iran after the CIA overthrow of Mossadegh in 1953, the one sided support for racist, fascist Israel, the propping of rightist Arab regimes, the US support for Osama in Afghanistan and the generally biased western media coverage is ignored to produce the desired level of hate and ignorance. No wonder mass murderers like you have murdered 750,000 Iraqis since the US invasion, you are a war criminal and if you want to go over there and risk your cowardly ass in combat, be our guest. Just don’t drag the rest of us into your wacko biblical Armageddon crusades, racist beaner. You will be submitting to trial and imprisonment over here for your crimes in Iraq. Of course the irony is that it was Saddam who kept the Fundies out of Iraq. Assholes like you have made us much less safer. You are a Me Hi Can Timothy McVeigh. Bad cess to you and may you die the most horrible of deaths. Lunatic warmonger psychotic killer.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 8, 2007 at 2:45 AM The quotes are direct from Usamas propaganda arm….Al Jeezera. Biased? Yes I agree perhaps the most useless television station on the planet.
No trial no imprisonment. America refuses to sign the International Commie Court treaty remember…I am glad most Americans are not that stupid to sign away the Constitution to appease the Marxist Left.
The Arab has been on a “crusade” since Islam’s birth BM. The message is spread by the sword and dumbass lefties like yourself are helping the process along. Perhaps you need to read a real history book. Put Chimpsky in the trash where he belongs, and read some factual history. Understand that the Arab is not happy unless he is
A. Killing civilians.
B. Engaging in pedophelia
C. Opressing minorities.I fail to understand the levels of self hatred that Left wing politics imbues. Islam is against EVERY Left wing value. The right to free speech, protection for minorities, womens rights, peace, and religious freedom. Every hypocritical word that you idiots have spoken about these issues is a lie.
How can rational “free thinkers” support the supression of the basic human rights that we all support, the killing of homosexuals, the deliberate murder of civilians irregardless of the nationality the education of children specifically for suicide missions, and the brutalization of women both sexually and physically. Those are your heroes Mikey. Brutal, ignorant,murderous, savages. The quotes are their words.No one could “fake” the ignorance and racism evident in even the most “moderate” Arab. I wish you the best and I forgive your redneck trailer trash talk. Your just a dumbass.
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 8, 2007 at 7:09 AM The quotes are as phony as a three dollar bill. Al Jazeera is FAR BETTER THAN CNN OR FOX OR ANY US MEDIA OUTLET. I accept your apology for anti-Arab racism and am glad you have now repudiated your one-sided comic book view of Islam and Arabs. Christianity and Judaism in its orthodox forms are every bit as barbaric as the most fundamentalist strain of Islam, which as you noted was not even active until after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1980. As you have noted,
Chomsky is way too pro-Israeli and a left Zionist apologist but his book The Fateful Triangle is a very good analysis of US & Israeli rejectionism from 1967 on, I would add from 1948 on. As you noted, Chomsky has totally rebutted the smears of the lame, pathetic Stalinist Jew and Professional Liar, David Horowitz, who thankfully has now had a recurrence of prostate cancer. As you noted the ChristCulters started the medieval crusades and YOUR PEOPLE THE SPANAIRDS ARE THE GREATEST MASS MURDERERS IN HISTORY, 100 MILLION INDIANS SOUTH OF THE RIO GRANDE, 10-35 MILLION INDIANS NORTH OF THE RIO GRANDE, 7-8 MILLION NATIVES IN HAITI & THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, 30 MILLION WOMEN “WITCHES” IN DARK AGES EUROPE AND TENS OF MILLIONS OF BLACK CATS DUE TO THE SPANISH EVIL EYE SUPERSTITUTION. As you have noted the spanish is the most violent, brutal, homophobic culture in history. Unfortunately I cannot accept your apology for it as your Me Hi Can people have declared war on the USA through 12 million illegals here. I am very sorry that your Mama is a Puta on the streets of San Antonio but is that really our problem ? I agree with you that the USASS Govt tried to censor Al Jazeera because it is the only news outlet in the Near East that gives both sides. As you have noted we can’t depend on the liars at Fox. I understand your wanting to turn yourself in for war crimes and are ready to be hung, personally I’ll volunteer. I understand your labeling yourself as a hopeless stupid ass and I am glad that you are subscribing to American Renaissance for a daily update on your Me Hi Can peoples’ horrific ongoing crimes and I appreciate your volunteering to introduce a new form of technology in Me Hi Co, the flush toilet, but please show them how to use it. As you have also noted the Spanish is the most anti-woman and sexist culture around in addition to being the most violently homophobic and racist. I am very sorry that you have never read a real history book, why not start with Noam Chomsky, he has 30 excellent books to give you’re little beaner brain a workout. Regretfully, I have to decline you’re offer to suck my big white wiener. You’re not my type or my kind, Pepito.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 8, 2007 at 5:57 PM Elie Wiesel accosted at S.F. hotel…...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070210/ap_on_re_us/wiesel_accosted;_ylt=AmgTWauj j.WnchM28Mug2OUhH2ocA
SAN FRANCISCO - Nobel laureate and Holocaust scholar Elie Wiesel was dragged from an elevator and roughed up during a peace conference at a San Francisco hotel last week, police said Friday. The author was not injured
The assailant approached Wiesel in an elevator Feb. 1 at the Argent Hotel and requested an interview, police Sgt. Neville Gittens said.
When Wiesel consented to talk in the hotel’s lobby, the man insisted it be done in a hotel room and dragged the 78-year-old off the elevator on the sixth floor, Gittens said police are investigating the incident as a crime. He said investigators were aware of a posting at an anti-Semitic Web site in which a man claimed responsibility for the attack, but declined to comment further. Wiesel, who survived the Nazi death camps at Auschwitz and Buchenwald during World War II, has worked for human rights in many parts of the world and was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1986.”And where was BM? Big Man, Boring Mouthbreather, Butt Molester, Braindead Motherfuc…Bowel Movement, or the Blonde Misfit?
I also LOVE the fact that a 78 year old Nobel Peace Prize Winner is beaten at a PEACE convention. Leftie Love at work…..................
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 10, 2007 at 3:54 AM Yasser Arafat was a Nobel Peace Prize winner and HE deserved it. I agree with you that Elie Wiesel is the biggest fake and liar that ever lived as Cockburn and many others have documented. Am glad SOME FAR RIGHTIST REVISIONIST BEAT HIS STINKY ASS TOO ! Glad we agree, now is it true you’re Madre Puta has done every gringo in San Antone ? Wishing you a fourth tour in Iraq and hope you come back in a nice regulation Army box. Buchenwald and none of the German camps are considered death camps even by Wiesel. They claimed the Polish camps were death camps but that has been rebutted and the Auschwitz death toll went from 9 million to 4 million to 1.5 million to 750,000 to the final figure of 74,000 (30,000 Jews.) But leeetle boy beaner saw some big pitchers and that convinced him there was “genocide.” Wiesel never worked for peace anywhere but for WAR in the Balkans and the Middle East. You didn’t have to beat Elie that hard, Pepito. I am sorry to hear that you are a braindeadmotherfuckabowelbreathboringbuttmolester but what else is new ?
Posted by blondemike on Feb 10, 2007 at 7:29 PM BM,
You are a liar. You quote the same old holocaust denier hacks that I have shown to be disproven scientifically and historically. Everyone knows that the Nazis were not tortured at Nuremberg. Albert Speer was NOT tortured into writing two books in Spandau in which he confirmed every war crime the Nazis were accused of at Nuremberg. You are just a dumbass Nazi sympathizer and Jew hater as everyone who reads your posts can clearly see.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Feb 12, 2007 at 6:44 AM Chicago, again you have called me foul, libelous names and have reiterated arbitrary assertions that I have previously refuted with references galore. Speer was TORTURED as were ALL the other Nuremberg defendants, see Veale, Taylor, Hoggan, etc. The Nazis were extensively and horrendously tortured even up to the hangings which took 14 minutes in one case and 24 in another ! Far exceeding the Shiite barbarity with Saddam Hussein. How would a stinky little racist Zionist Portnoy Jack-Off artist from Shitcago know what happened in Germany over 60 years ago ??????????????? In the Malmedy Stalinist Trials 135 OF THE 137 DEFENDANTS HAD THEIR TESTICLES DAMAGED BEYOND REPAIR. In my worst moments after reading the stupidass lies from a stinky piece of shit like you, I’m sorry there wasn’t a “holohoax.” But 99.99% of the time I don’t get down to you’re level. BTW, you haven’t SHOWN ANYTHING EITHER SCIENTIFICALLY OR HISTORICALLY, ALL YOU DO IS SHOUT “AUNTEY SEAMITE” AND AFTER THE TRILLIONETH FALSE SHOUT IT LOSES ITS PUNCH. YOU ARE EVEN MORE PATHETIC THAN ALAN DIRTBAGOWITZ AT HAAAVARD. Just drop dead and don’t correspond with me anymore, you are like the perjuring liars who “testified” against Demjanjuk, fucking liars every single one of them. My Jewish wife agrees that you a sorry piece of excrement and the main reason why most Jewish WOMEN are NOT marrying sick Jewish men like you.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 12, 2007 at 6:21 PM No self respecting woman would marry an idiot like you Mikey. Your confusing one of your nasty cats for a human female again.
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 13, 2007 at 10:35 PM Sure, Tex, whatever you say. Eighteen years to the same lovely Jewish woman. My cats are lovely, not nasty. But it’s interesting that you are into bestiality. Jeezez Christo, don’t your Cheecano people draw the line anywhere ?
Posted by blondemike on Feb 14, 2007 at 2:19 AM Anne Frank’s father tried to get to U.S…........
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070214/ap_on_re_us/otto_frank_letters
NEW YORK - Anne Frank’s father tried to arrange U.S. visas for his family before they went into hiding, but his efforts were hampered when Allied and Axis countries tightened immigration policies, according to papers released Wednesday.Otto Frank also sent desperate letters to friends and family in the U.S. pleading for help with immigration costs as the family tried to escape the Nazi-occupied Netherlands.
“I would not ask if conditions here would not force me to do all I can in time to be able to avoid worse,” Otto Frank wrote to his college friend Nathan Straus in April 1941. “It is for the sake of the children mainly that we have to care for. Our own fate is of less importance.”
The documents show how Frank tried to arrange for his family — wife Edith, daughters Margo and Anne and mother-in-law Rosa Hollander — to go to the U.S. or Cuba. He wrote to relatives, friends and officials between April 30, 1941, and Dec. 11, 1941, when Germany declared war on the U.S.
But immigration rules were changing under the Nazi regime and in the U.S. There were nearly 300,000 people on a waiting list for a U.S. immigration visa. Besides, since Frank had living relatives in Germany, he would have been unable to immigrate under U.S. policy at the time.
“I know that it will be impossible for us all to leave even if most of the money is refundable, but Edith urges me to leave alone or with the children,” he said in another letter to Straus.
He managed to secure one visa to Cuba, but it was canceled in December 1941 after the Germans declared war on the U.S. The family went into hiding in July 1942.”
Cats shit in a box and you clean it up….....How nasty is that?
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 15, 2007 at 3:55 AM Your history is wrong again. Of the 560,000 Jews living in Germany before the war broke out in 1939, 350,000 HAD LEFT before the war broke out. Anne Frank was a lovely young girl, her father was a creep who invented the diary using a kind of ink that didn’t exist until after the war. Frank was real and died of typhus, the “Diary” is not. Don’t bother to post crap that happens to agree with your preconceived prejudices. Cats are very clean and defecate in litter boxes and cover it up. Your
Me Hi Can peeples shit on the streets, in public places and do not cover it up. Now how nasty is that, Pepito ?
Posted by blondemike on Feb 15, 2007 at 6:13 PM I agree Anne was a lovely young lady with a bright, quick mind. Too bad she had to hide for two years..DOCUMENTED. Turned in by a traitor…..DOCUMENTED. Sent to Bergen-Belsen….DOCUMENTED. And died of typhus at the age of fifteen years old. DOCUMENTED.
Her diary was kept by Miep Gies in Holland until after the war. Her father was in a concentration camp until late 1946 the diary was released in early 1947.So how could it be faked? Explain that little fact BM…...
Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years…........
MANNHEIM, Germany - A German court on Thursday convicted far-right activist Ernst Zundel and sentenced him to five years in prison for Holocaust denial in a case that underlined Germany’s determination to prosecute people who claim the Nazis didn’t murder six million Jews.
The 67-year-old Zundel, who was deported from Canada in 2005, was convicted on 14 counts of inciting hatred for years of anti-Semitic activities, including contributing to a Web site devoted to denying the Holocaust — a crime in Germany.
Zundel showed no emotion when Judge Ulrich Meinerzhagen read the verdict, only nodding occasionally.
Zundel, who has also lived in Tennessee, and his supporters argued that he was a peaceful campaigner being denied his right to free speech.
His attorney, Ludwig Bock, said he would appeal.
His trial began in November in this southwestern city after an initial attempt to try him collapsed in March 2006 over a dispute with one of his attorneys, Sylvia Stolz.At one stage, she was carried from the courtroom, screaming “Resistance! The German people are rising up,” after she defied an order banning her from the trial on grounds she tried to sabotage the proceedings by denouncing the court as a “tool of foreign domination.”
During the current trial, Bock quoted from Adolf Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” and from Nazi race laws in his closing statements last week as argued for Zundel’s acquittal.
Fellow nutbags ......................David Duke .....Former Klansman, and Presidential Candidate.
Cindy Sheehan…......Left wing crackpot, anti-semite
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei .........Iranian chief nutbag and anti-semite.
Noam Chimpsky ........purported professor of linguistics, Left wing crackpot and anti-semite.
Mikey “BM of Oakland” Left wing crackpot, cat shit expert, and anti-semite.
Any animal that shits in your house is nasty. Any person that cleans up after that animal is an idiot.
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 16, 2007 at 3:26 AM Hey, asshole, I agree with your comments on Anne Frank except for the diary. The diary turned out to be written in a kind of ink that didn’t exist until after WW2. Her father is the most likely suspect since he “discovered” it and made millions off of it. Go to the IHR website and you can find essays on this. Frank was real enough and died like you wrote but the “diary” is a fake. Even reading it many years ago I had doubts. Zundel’s outrageous imprisonment for thought crimes PROVES MY POINT, THE PERPETRATORS OF THE HOLOHOAX ARE SO DESPERATE THAT THEY HAVE TO IMPRISON PEOPLE INSTEAD OF INTELLECTUALLY COMBATING THEM IN THE INTELLECTUAL ARENA. There is no other type of thought crime for which people go to prison for. Even a shit in his drawers beaner like you should be able to figure that one out. No one goes to prison for questioning US or Communist atrocities or any other kind, obviously ONE group has way too much power in society. Arabs are real Semites, most Jews of European Ashkenazim extraction are not, see Arthur Koestler’s The Thirteenth Tribe, 1976. Finally, who gives a flying fuck about a shitass racist Cheecana’s criticism of her betters like Sheehan, Chomsky, Khameini, Duke, myself, not that the above have anything in common except they are all better than you, senorita. Yes, cats cleanly shit inside a littler box inside a house. I shit inside a house too. It’s called a flush toilet. Me Hi Cans shit outside on the streets next to their pit bulls who also shit outside on the streets, keep spreading your legs like mama puta, senorita. Decent people clean up after their pets. Pieces of Me Hi Cano shit like you are now obligated to use pooper scoopers to clean up after your pit bulls when the defecate on the streets. You see Big Gov is necessary because your shitty people who are the color of shit, BROWN, do not clean up after their ugly dogs shit. And please little senorita, take that coal out of the bathtub on your front yard. Also please scrub and use feminine hygiene, your giving crabs to your gringo Johns.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 16, 2007 at 6:09 PM Sounds like a load of bullshit to me BM. Essays by jackasses like yourself? I think I will pass… That lie about the diary has been debunked by actual scientific examination on several occasions.
“In 1958, Simon Wiesenthal was challenged by a group of protesters at a performance of The Diary of Anne Frank in Vienna who asserted that Anne Frank had never existed, and who told Wiesenthal to prove her existence by finding the man who had arrested her. He began searching for Karl Silberbauer and found him in 1963. When interviewed, Silberbauer readily admitted his role, and identifed Anne Frank from a photograph as one of the people arrested. He provided a full account of events and recalled emptying a briefcase full of papers onto the floor. His statement corroborated the version of events that had previously been presented by witnesses such as Otto Frank.
In 1976, Otto Frank took action against Heinz Roth of Frankfurt, who published pamphlets stating the diary was a forgery. The judge ruled that if he published further statements he would be subjected to a 500,000 Deutschmark fine and a six months’ jail sentence. Two cases were dismissed by German courts in 1978 and 1979 on the grounds of freedom of speech, as the complaint was not filed by an “injured party”. The court ruled in each case that if a further complaint was made by an injured party, such as Otto Frank, a charge of slander could follow.
The controversy reached its peak with the arrest and trial of two neo-Nazis, Ernst Römer and Edgar Geiss, who were tried and found guilty of producing and distributing literature denouncing the diary as a forgery, following a complaint by Otto Frank. During their appeal, a team of historians examined the documents in consultation with Otto Frank, and determined them to be genuine. In 1978, as part of an appeal of the cases won against Römer and Geiss, the German Criminal Court Laboratory, the Bundeskriminalamt (BKA) was asked to examine the kind of paper and the types of ink used in the manuscript of the diary. Although its findings indicated that ink with which the diary was written had been in use during the war, the BKA also concluded that “the later corrections made on the loose-leaf pages were written in part in black, green and blue ballpoint pen,” though the BKA did not give any specific details about these alleged ballpoint corrections. Deniers of the authenticity of the diary focused in particular on this statement, as ballpoint pens did not become widely available until after the end of the World War II.
In 1986, the Dutch “Gerechtelijk Laboratorium” (State Forensic Science Laboratory) in Rijswijk conducted another extensive technical examination of the manuscript. Though the BKA was invited by the “Gerechtelijk Laboratorium” to indicate where on the loose-leaf pages it had found the “ballpoint corrections”, the BKA was unable to point out a single example. The “Gerechtelijk Laboratorium” itself found only two slips of paper in ballpoint ink which had been inserted in Anne Frank’s loose leaf manuscript. The Revised Critical Edition of the Diary of Anne Frank (published 2003) reproduces images (pages 167-171) of the two slips of paper, and in the chapter summarising the findings of the State Forensic Science Laboratory which analysed the materials, ink and handwriting in the manuscripts of Anne Frank, H.J.J. Hardy writes on the matter:
The only ballpoint writing was found on two loose scraps of paper included among the loose sheets. Figures VI-I-I and 3 show the way in which these scraps of paper had been inserted into the relevant plastic folders. As far as the factual contents of the diary are concerned the ballpoint writings have no significance whatsoever. Morever, the handwriting on the scraps of paper and in the diary differs strikingly”
You lose again jackass…..................
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 17, 2007 at 4:20 AM Go to the ihr.org website, then to The Journal of Historical Review, Volume 3, Number 3, to a 35 page essay “Is The diary of Anne Frank Genuine ?” by Dr. Robert Faurisson. This is based on nine hours of personal interviews with Otto Frank and his wife by Robert Faurisson in Amsterdam in March 1977. Faurisson specifically probed the following points: Internal criticism: the very text of the Diary (in Dutch) contains a number of unlikely or inconceivable facts. A study of the premises in Amsterdam regarding on the one hand the physical impossibilities and on the other hand the explanations made up by Otto Frank (Anne’s Father) which severely compromise him. Interview for nine hours over two days of the principal witness: Otto Frank. Bibliographical examination: some curious silences and revelations. A return to Amsterdam for a new investigation: the witnesses turn out to be unfavorable to Mr. Frank: the probable truth. The “betrayer” and the person who arrested the Franks: why has Mr. Frank wished to assure them anonymity ? Comparison between the Dutch and German texts: attempting to make too much of it, Mr. Frank has given himself away: he has signed a literary fraud. The whole thirty five pages can be downloaded and prove the “diary” is a fraud. The Wiesenthal tale is bullshit, there was never any issue about the existence of Frank, the only question centered on the “diary.” So you jumped the gun again, TexASS. You lose again as you have every time. Just happened to be reading the essay this morning. The German study you cite in no way vindicated the authenticity of the diary. Mr. Frank admitted making “many changes” and refused to provide Elli’s address in Holland to Faurisson, commenting that she was “not very bright.” I challenge you to download (that means PRINT) the Faurisson essay and refute it. I won’t hold my breath. As usual you went to the dubious establishment sources without taking the time to examine the critics’ arguments. You are a lazy, lying piece of excrement and exactly the type of moron that enlists in the miltary after a stint in the government brainwashing schools. If you want me to reproduce more of Faurisson’s scientific rebuttal here, I will. But you have been given the source, the definitive source to learn the truth about this particular imposture. Glad to kick your smelly arse again, TexASS. The very fact that someone could be arrested and tried for questioning the authenticity of the “diary” indicates the Stalinist nature of German law. Your first sentence is a total coward’s copout, you are afraid to read searching criticism. Now everyone knows where to find the rebuttal to the diary hoax.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 17, 2007 at 9:39 PM “After his death in 1980, Otto Frank bequeathed his daughter’s manuscripts to the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation, who commissioned a forensic study to determine when the manuscripts had been prepared, and by whom. The glue, paper and other materials used in the original notebooks as well as the ink and handwriting found within them and the loose version were extensively examined and in 1986 the results were published. The handwriting was found to be consistent with known examples of Anne Frank’s handwriting, and the paper, ink and glue found in the diaries and loose papers were consistent with materials available in Amsterdam during the period in which the diary was written.”
Period end of story…........Faurisson was a crank.Why would any reasonable person read that crap…..Oh we are talking about you aren’t we…...... Rassinier was a socialist nut. I would rather watch “Triumph of the Will” its all carries the same theme.
Mikey…...Denying historical fact is absurd. Its the realm of alien abductees, Kennedy Conspriracy Nuts, Elvis sightings, Bigfoot, anti-semites, and rednecks. Thanks to my good friend Uncle Sam I actually have visited Auschwitz II. Before the wall fell. The evidence is burned in my brain. The Russian guide told us 3 million. Books now claim 1.5 million. Rudolf Hoss the guy who would actually know the numbers claimed 3 million. So no I don’t believe a word you say.
So what is your fascination with the National Socialist German Workers Party? Is it the whole Untermenschen concept? Do you feel superior to all those “mudpeople”? What makes your little monkey brain tick…....................
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 18, 2007 at 3:57 AM Where’s the reasoned argument ? You are merely reiterating your unproven assertion. It doesn’t matter if Frank submitted the “diary” to the Pope, it’s still a fraud. If you had gone to Auschwitz 20 years ago the sign would have read four million instead of 1.5 ! originally they had it at 9 million, now the leading anti-revisionist in France, Pressac, states it was 750,000. Actually the German records which are the most reliable show 74,000 total of whom 30,000 were Jews total. So much for the accuracy of your tour guides at Auschwitz. Again, you merely record to ad hominem smears against Faurisson because you are scared to read his essay and you know that you can’t refute it. Hoess testimony was obtained under extreme torture and he actually claimed over 4 million. The Russian guide was your standard brand Soviet liar and since you did visit before the wall fell you got the most egregrious Communist propaganda version, being the stupid ass Army career man you naturally believed every word of it. Hoess’s “confessions” are a bigger fake than Frank’s “Diary.” It’s interesting that you don’t source the first paragraph quote because Faurisson specifically rebuts that in his essay ! Rassinier’s socialism has nothing to do with his study of the holohoax lie and since he was brutally interned at Dora and Buchenwald he has added credibility, not so easily smeared as a “Nazi” not that you have dared to read him either. Case NOT closed, stupidass Tex. Studying National Socialism and Corporate Fascism helps me to understand neocons like Bush and you. A pathetic wannabe white boy too incompetent to make it in the private sector and is supported by the socialist Pentagon system. You are incapable of reasoned argumentation, a very typical “conservative” no different from a Soviet Communist. You saw those Big Pitchers and the fable must be true because whoever gets to you first wins.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 18, 2007 at 8:21 PM Mikey
Faurrison is a incoherent crank. A loony pseudeo-scientific anti-semite who with others of his ilk attempt to whitewash National Socialism into a respectable historical view. The NIOD study has proven scientifically beyond any doubt reasonable or not that the diary is authentic and was written by Anne. Period end of story.Why would I waste my time and money on Chimpsky, Faurrison, or any of the other left wing loonies you keep quoting? Your sources are biased. The philosophy is racist. And your attempt at “revision” is childish and incompetent. I find it funny that pseudo-acedemic hacks like your sources try to diminish the atrocities of National Socialism and conjure up fictional “genocide” to blame on every one else. So yes you have the right to be a dumbass but no one has to listen.
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 19, 2007 at 5:25 PM Instead of dealing with his cogent, rather persuasive factual arguments, you choose to deal in the lowest form of ad hominem attacks. Calling someone else’s sources as biased considering the absolute discreditation of your establishment sources by Faurisson and others is hilarious ! I don’t think it costs you that much to download materials free of charge. Personally I’d want to actually know the other side in their own words rather than some questionable ax-grinding interpretation.
The fact is that the atrocities of National Socialism have been greatly hyped while the massive US and Communist atrocities have been greatly underplayed. No, not the end of the story, that study has been debunked by Faurisson’s essay alone. Not to mention other critiques. But I thank you for proving my point in spades.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 19, 2007 at 6:37 PM Tex,
I want to commend you on your brilliant refutation of BM (Bowel Movement?). He has run me out of energy. He persists in quoting only holocaust revisionists who are shown to be frauds and who fabricated data or made logically fallacious arguments. Most of these fools quote mostly from each other or distort the independant data the do use. Tex you are truely great!! Despite our disagreements about other issues I’m here for you on this one. Though conservative, you are the only one who has stood up to this Neo-Nazi racist and holocaust denier. One can tell by the racist hatred that he spews on everyone that his bias toward Nazism is only fitting with the rest of his obnoxious world view. He is a moron.
The basic reason that fascists deny the holocaust is that they want to give genocide a facelift. If they can succeed they can reduce the wide reticence felt by vast numbers of disaffected youth to joining their misguided fascist movement. They wish to whitewash Nazi crimes and make fascism seem acceptable, mainstreamable, sustainable, and an overall feasible political movement that is not at odds with America’s traditional values and political culture and heritage. This is obviously not the case. But time is not necessaritly on the side of justice in this issue. As time goes on memory fades. If the deniers and fascists win it is at the peril of all democracy and freedom loving peoples!! Just look at the leaders for which the Neo-Nazis make apologetics; Saddam Hussien, Slodaban Milosivic, the dictators of the Sudan who have been using the Janjeweed against Darfur, and many other murdering strongmen. They worship dictatorship and blame the weak for obstructing the strong in their quest for total power. This is the way of fascism. BM is part of this ilk.
One final note. I don’t support the continued occupation of Palestine by Israel. But I don’t blame all Jews or accuse Israel and Jewish people of things for which they are not legitimately responsible. I want to thank you once again for standing up against this bully and bigot. He is a menace. You deserve kudos. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Cabby.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Feb 20, 2007 at 12:00 AM Shitcago, he never refuted anything at all and the essay by Faurisson refutes his sources and proves the “diary” is a fraud. All he does is spout useless, meaningless polemics and he is admittedly as scared to check out revisionist sources as you are. The Holohoax is a religion
and like all religions it is not based on facts. Every component from “Ivan The Terrible” to the “gas chambers” to Frank’s “diary” has been demonstrated to be a fraud. It’s also interesting that you overlook TexASS’s terrific anti-Arab racism and blanket condemnation of a whole religion, if any revisionist had said anything remotely comparable about Jews and Judaism, you’d rightly condemn it. It’s also interesting that you apologize for and defend Israel’s much greater record of both territorial aggression and nuclear arsenal than anything remotely done by Saddam Hussein or Iran. You used to posture as some kind of left anti-Zionist but that was a big lie. You have no politics but Holocaustamania and no loyalty except to Israel. TexASS uses the same brainless anti-debating style and nonarguments on Jewish issues as he does everywhere else but you applaud him here out of the most primeval tribal racism. By the way, a great many people have attempted to engage me here on the holohoax and I have rebutted every one including your shabbas ass many times. Like the pathetic Army career man on the Pentagon Dole, TexASS, you can only shout insults and curse and pull your smelly little pod. No wonder Jewish women avoid you like the plague and you are forced to pay for shiksa sluts. Oh, did I “bully” you little man ? I don’t know about Darfur but 90% of the propaganda against both Milosevic and Hussein was utter bullshit of the lying perjuring Demjanjuk “accusers” whom the Israeli Supreme Court found to be total liars. Both made their respectivecourts look like monkeys, particularly Milosevic who got to speak more freely. Israel should not survive as a “Jewish” State with 25% of its population NONJews and the shattering of the holohoax myth will bring it down to size. That you would believe the anti-fascist cause is helped by massive lies and exaggerations is absolutely pathetic. Those of us in the left libertarian ranks are far more effective opponents of fascism and national socialism than hysterical shit in the pants old line Stalinoid Zionist Racists like you. Jews are not immune to racism and unfortunately have a high percentage of racists within their ranks. You being a prime example, you shout “nazi” and “anti-semite” like rightist nuts do “commie” and “un-american.” TexASS is unique, he does both ! That piece of wannabbe white boy racist anti-Arab beaner is about the best of the goyim on your side.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 20, 2007 at 1:47 AM Mikey
You couldn’t debate your way out of a paper bag. When your premise is flawed at the outset you will always fail.
Jackasses like you and your “prophets of revisionism” are simply angry little men who hate. Other hate filled little men with preconcieved notions of history will follow along with whoever is shouting the loudest.
The problem is simple…..If honest people of any political persuasion allow not only lies but supid lies to become “truth” the millions of people that died fighting, or because of National Socialism died for nothing. I don’t understand the mentality that likes Hitler. I see it in you and in skinheads, the Klan, and all the other white supremacist groups. What makes white men so angry?I don’t like Sunni Arabs. I feely admit it. Their religion is based on conquest, racism, pedophelia, and genocide. The countries they inhabit are stuck in the middle ages. And Islam is at war with the rest of the planet. I am not inclined to pay the Jizyah tax, nor will I submit. But I don’t hate Arabs. I simply recognize them for what they are. I listen to their speeches and believe what they have to say.
Israel has flourished for almost 60 years. Your Arab buddies have lost billions of petro-dollars in Soviet equipment, thousands of troops, and any semblance of dignity. And what have they accomplished…..Nada, nothing, zilch, zero, diddley squat. Sixty years of war and death with no end in sight. Why. Because they lost territory in wars they started. Foolish pride and religious hate. Thats a damm stupid reason to kill your own children.
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 20, 2007 at 6:37 PM Then you must be a whole lot less than a paper bag because I have rebutted you with ease every time ! Israel exists solely as a result of many hundreds of billions of Deutschmarks for “holocaust” that never happened and at least a quarter of a trillion in US aid since 1948 but 95% since 1967. The only war the Arabs ever started was by Egpyt and Syria in 73 to recover their stolen territories back from Israel. Israel started massive expulsions in 1947-48 and thus the 48 war and in 56 invaded Egpyt with the UK and France, in 67 they started the war and ergo for Lebanon invasions in 1978, 1982, 1985, last summer, etc. The Arabs have modernized their economies, have great relations with everyone but the US & Israel and their petrodollars along with China keep the US economy afloat and we solely keep Israel afloat. I think it’s hilarious after your anguished protests about the great writer H.L. Mencken, of whom you are not fit to lick the sweat off his balls, that you decry his alleged racism and yet are more vehemently racist anti-Arab than the most virulent Jew-hater. That you are this stupid to make an insane generalization about a whole people and a
major branch of a major religion proves you to be a total racist and you have no grounds whatsoever to criticize anyone else for racism. Many more people here in the USA have made the same uncritical generalizations about your group. Talk about a stupid shit shitting in his own nest ! You have no arguments, you can’t refute the revisionists in the least, you can’t even mount the semblance of a reasoned argument, you can only call names and make wildly inappropriate analogies. Israel is properly hated for stealing another people’s land, you’d feel the same way if it happened to you. You are just a stupid little no brain army career moron who believes every fashionable lie.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 21, 2007 at 12:57 AM “Israel started massive expulsions in 1947-48 and thus the 48 war”
So according to Chimpsky and thus written by his parrot BM a force of men, women, and children armed with bolt action rifles and a few submachineguns “oppressed” a superior combined arms force of armor, infantry, artillery, and aircraft. .................What a load of shit Mikey.
So according to Chimpsky logic a Mexican should bomb your house, kill your cats and wife, and chop your head off on videotape. Since you live in a house on “stolen” land you should be considered an “Califoniaist” and killing you would be a “blow for freedom”. I bet Chimpsky would approve and probably write another fantastically boring book about the “struggle against California hegemony”Revisionists don’t get refuted dumbass they get laughed at. Like you. Its total bullshit. No one believes your stupid lies. I doubt you even believe half the crap you write. Why don’t you just orally copulate Noam and get it over with.
My opinion of the Arab is a valid observation and has nothing to do with “race”. Arabs are terrorists. If they are not actually blowing up civilians they are supporting the ones who do. They beat their wives. They teach their kids to suicide bomb instead of to read. The average man on the street is incapable of reason or logic and cannot read, he simply parrots the crap he hears in the mosque. Like you. I don’t hate haji. I am not attempting to rewrite history. I simply read their own words, see the videotapes, and believe what they say.
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 21, 2007 at 5:42 PM Where’s the argument ? Where’s the references ? Where’s the documentation ? You sneer at everything but deal with nothing. Not only do you not refute any arguments, you don’t even deal with them. In 1947-48 the Zionist paramilitary forces numbered over 60,000 as compared to under 20,000 for all the Arab “armies.” See Ny Times reporter Kennett Love’s book Suez: The Twice Fought War. See Alfred M. Lilienthal’s What Price Israel and The Zionist Connection. See the works
of David Hirst, Cheryl Rubenberg, Avi Schlaim, Elmer Berger, Moshe Menuhin and Edward Said for starters.
I don’t know what agit-prop videos you watch but Stalin ordered his new satellite, Czechoslovakia to supply arms to the Zionist paramilitary forces. Where did you get the insane idea that the Arabs were better armed in 1948 ? As far as the so-called average man repeating crap that is what the
psychs call projection, it describes you to a “t.” Don’t waste my time anymore on anything. Getting very tired of repeating myself and giving refs & outlines of arguments only to read your utterly juvenile ad hominems. Did you even go to school or did you just work at the taco vendors all during your childhood ? You are a standard combination of utter stupidity and unjustified arrogance. The truth is that you have much to be humble about and both sets of your racial ancestors, Injuns and
Spics, were among the greatest killers in history, one set largely exterminating another. Sunnis look
like moderates compared to both your tribes.
Exactly the opposite of the truth and no serious historian in Israel itself would endorse your crazed remarks, even ardent Zionists like Benny Morris have been forced to concede that 99% of the mythology about “little” Israel is bullshit. Of course I believe the revisionist argument or I
wouldn’t advocate it. Noam is not particularly revisionist on the holohoax or WW2.
He buys the usual left line on it. As far as your generalizations of all Arabs they are the type of racist horseshit that we all condemn when used against any other group of people. Have you at long last no sense of shame, no sense of decency ? I’m ashamed of you. And stop stealing my tax dollars, you ugly little pinto racist killer.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 21, 2007 at 8:21 PM I’ve heard of all the anti-Zionist writers that you’ve pointed out and NONE of them deny the holocaust. And since when is acknowledging the holocaust a “left” political position. Most normal reasonable people from the far right to the far left acknowledge the historic event.The Nazis themselves freely acknowledged it. The Nazis were not tortured at all. Those who testified were given due process. The Nazis did however, try to kill witnessess so they couldn’t testify at Nuremburg. In some gruesome cases they succeeded.
The sense in which you use the term revisionist for the Israeli Scholars like Morris and Schlaim is different from holocaust revisionism which is really just holocaust denial. The works by the Israeli scholars on the 1948 War is legitimate and is the body of literature most accepted around the world and in Israel.
As far as racism is concerned all anyone needs to do is to look at your posts. You are a flaming racist.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Feb 22, 2007 at 6:44 AM A nonsequitur since I never claimed they did. Alfred Lilienthal, the premier American Jewish anti-Zionist, has come to have severe doubts about many aspects of the holohoax including the bogus Frank “diaries” but it is not his specialty. The term “denial” is meaningless, the writers
who have challenged it are revisionists, “denial” is a loaded term, like calling an atheist a “Christ denier.” It’s rather obvious I’m a flaming anti-racist and rather consistent because I challenge Jewish and black racism as well as the more common varieties. Now as to Israeli scholars again you are sloppy and imprecise. Some revisionist ones like Flapan, Schlaim, Morris to a lesser extent and others have done scholarly work on 1947-48 but this is a development within the last twenty years, before that the Israelis’ general scholarship was worthless. As a Jewish Zionist Racist you always like to ascribe superior qualities to your self-chosen people but as with ALL peoples
the real smart ones constitute a small minority. Hint: you are not in that minority. The evidence of torture at Nuremberg and Malmedy is extensive. 135 of the 137 suspects in the Malmedy “Trials” had their testicles ruptured beyond repair according to two American Judges who investigated the US Army’s atrocious conduct here. The torture at Nuremberg was no less severe and two of the defendants took 14 and 24 minutes respectively to die by hanging, a barbarity that exceeded the Shiite torture execution of Saddam Hussein. See FJP Veale’s Advance To Barbarism and David Irving’s Nuremberg: The Last Battle as well as Montgomery Belgion’s book on the Stalinist Show Trials at Nuremberg. It’s interesting that a little Zionist Racist Stalinophile Shitass like you is SO QUICK TO DISMISS OTHER PEOPLES’ SUFFERING BUT GETS INDIGNANT WHEN YOUR OWN BOGUS LAMPSHADE AND SOAP BAR BULLSHIT IS CHALLENGED. Finally anyone with a particle of a brain understands that the “holocaust” legend WAS NOT PERMITTED TO BE CHALLENGED AT NUREMBERG. ALL ANY DEFENDANT COULD DO WAS TRY TO MITIGATE THEIR OWN PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCE BY CLAIMING THAT THEY WERE FOLLOWING ORDERS.
The contempt that Zionist Racists like you have for the public mind is beyond belief. In France holocaust revisionism is more of a left than a right enterprise, in Germany the opposite, here it extends across the spectrum. Let’s sum it up, you have never read any holocaust revisionists, you are scared to read holocaust revisionists, you simply smear them. An anti-Jew is someone who hates Jews qua Jews, same as with any other type of hatred. At this point, I do not want you to
address me any further, you are a physical and intellectual moral coward. I do not CARE what you think about ANYTHING. If you were on my side I’d be totally embarrassed ! Goodbye, fuckface. If you want to know why the intermarriage rate in your tribe is approaching a majority look in the mirror.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 22, 2007 at 6:22 PM All you do is quote left wing loonies to “prove” your point dipshit. It is a self perpetuating circle of bullshit. These are opinions Mikey. Opinions are not fact. I am not going to read a long boring piece of shit book simply to finish it and demand my money back. Unlike you I actually read for pleasure. Despite your assertions to the contrary you have proven only three facts..
1. You are locked into one narrow world view and that view is dependent on what ever left wing loon you are worshiping writes next.
2. Mexicans should burn your house down as you stole their land.
3. You are a Nazi.
Posted by texasindependent on Feb 23, 2007 at 5:32 PM The only appropriate response to your total failure to check out the many references that I was kind enough to source for you is:
FUCK YOU YOU ILLEGAL ASSHOLE PIECE OF SHIT MORON.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 23, 2007 at 7:23 PM They don’t like your smelly ass, refer to my email above.
Posted by blondemike on Feb 26, 2007 at 8:24 PM BM,
You are a racist moron and should be removed from the ITT website permanently!!
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 1, 2007 at 8:35 PM -
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