Spoils of War

What impresses me about this article is not the oil angle which we could all take for granted but the 150 companies granted over $50 billion in mostly no bid contracts. The $50 billion figure is big money. I would estimate that over a third of the world’s nearly 200 sovereign nations don’t have an annual GDP totalling $50 billion. As time goes on the figure increases. This figure also exceeds Iraqi oil revenues and GDP of late I’m sure. All this being the case, it is easy to see how corporate globalization has created, structured, staffed, and also determined the distribution of the benefits of the “new Iraqi economy” through the US military intervention and long term occupation. A new division of labor in the increasingly integrated middle east will involve Saudi financing, some other Arab State manufacturing investment, Israeli technology (if the peace process can get going again in which Bush seems wholly uninterested), cheap Arab labor, and US Markets. Here the US hopes to outwardly diversify the increasingly concentrated consumer goods manufacturing investment in China. Indeed, the rate of manufacturing FDI was growing faster than oil investment despite record gas prices. The economic basis of the war is not just about a valuable and scarce resource but the long term structuring of global capitalism. Here is where the real value of Juhasz’s analysis comes into play. It’s not just about the profits of one sector of the US economy. It’s about the historic laws of motion of capital in the concentration of the capitalist economy on a global scale in order to insure continued profitability and the continued deepening of global capitalist relations of production.

“Remember oil? That thing we didn’t go to war in Iraq for?”

Not exactly a straw man in the truest sense, but also not worth arguing about. Of course the Middle East is about oil — it has been for at least a century.

But…

It is crucial to our economy and our very existence. (Whether it should be or must be is a different issue.) People will fight over water or wheat, corn, whatever is essential to their survival. If not nation against nation, then as individuals.

I would not be surprised to see globalization’s threat to individual jobs erupt into far more violence than we’ve seen so far.

If we can see the kind of fighting we have now due merely to greed, think of the return to basic instinct when you or your family is truly cold and hungry, or even plunging down the economic ladder.

The world economists have elevated corporate leaders to the status which used to be accorded movie stars and outstanding sports figures. It is a short step for CEOs to begin to believe their own press coverage. The top administration jobs have been dominated by “successful” CEOs from Bush on down.

Knowing how to make money does not a statesman or military genius make.

If oil was the only reason to have a presence in SouthWest Asia as the article insinuates. I would offer Mexico and Canda as the logical alternative.

With a combined proven reserves of almost 200 billion barrels, combined with the US’s proven reserves of 21.9 billion barrels Iraq would pale into a greasy spot on the garage floor. A common border, access to pipelines, better quality oil, and elimination of tankers are the benefits.

North American crude is “light sweet crude” which is superior in both gasoline production as well as crackability. Middle Eastern oil is “heavy crude” which costs almost double in terms of delivery as well as refining. 

Any logical “empire” would have already consolidated Mexico and Canada into its fold and ignored the troubled SouthWestern Asia’s oil fields. Our protection of the Gulf is for the benefit of Europe and Japan. Both rely almost exclusively on Gulf crude.

Any logical “empire” would have already consolidated Mexico and Canada into its fold ...

Tex, they have. It’s called free trade.
When ‘tar sands’ are included Canada has the second largest oil reserves in the world.

Middle Eastern oil is “heavy crude” ...

Hmm ... they have (or had) light sweet crude too. But it may be that most of the good stuff has already been pumped and they are left with mostly heavy crude now. Except maybe in Iraq?
But it’s all oil.

If oil was the only reason to have a presence in SouthWest Asia as the article insinuates.

Tex, while oil, as a spoil of war, was the focus of the article, I don’t think that oil was the only reason for the war. There were and are many reasons put forward for this war. None of them good.

Our protection of the Gulf is for the benefit of Europe and Japan.

And for the protection and benefit of Israel ...

“There’s nothing more deep than recognizing Israel’s right to exist. That’s the most deep thought of all. ... I can’t think of anything more deep than that right.”
-- George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002

“But now that I’m on Iran, the threat to Iran, of course—(applause)—the threat from Iran is, of course, their stated objective to destroy our strong ally Israel. That’s a threat, a serious threat. It’s a threat to world peace; it’s a threat, in essence, to a strong alliance. I made it clear, I’ll make it clear again, that we will use military might to protect our ally, Israel, and—(applause)”
--George W. Bush, Cleveland, Ohio, March 20, 2006

And always remember ...

“I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we’re really talking about peace.”
--George W. Bush, June 18, 2002

So, please understand that when we talk about oil, we are not talking about oil. Really.

Oil is measured by specific gravity and sulfur content.  The Persian Gulf’s oilfields are slightly varied but the bulk is heavy and high in sulfur. To the average “man on the street” oil is oil. But in refining the higher specific gravity and lower sulfur content of light sweet crude mean a greater percentage of volatile products ( Gasoline), and easier refining to meet EPA sulfur standards.

Tar sands are Bitumen, sand, clay, and water. While technically not crude oil they can be economically processed into gasoline with higher crude oil prices. It is used as asphalt for roads without any modification.

“War is a matter of vital importance to the State; the province of life or death; the road to survival or ruin.”

Once again Israel gets smacked around for no real reason......Strange.

Sun Tzu was the quote............ sorry

David and Tex,

I would agree oil was/is not the only reason for the war, but oil production and usage are currently so close that the increasing needs by emerging nations will make it even more important a factor for years or decades. Refining is the bottle neck at present.

As for other reasons… “None of them good.” I guess it depends on whose ox it is and how far out you look.

There is a continuing push from the White House to integrate Canada, U.S. and Mexico at least economically. Anything more would likely meet with resistance from citizens in each country. This is IMO the nose of the camel with unification the underlying goal. Watch for those “trade agreements” which get no vote by the people or our “representatives” (who give away theiir responsibility).

David, are lobbyists as influential in Canada are they have become here?

Once again Israel gets smacked around for no real reason......Strange.

Tex, I hardly smacked Israel around.  You brought up the countries you said the USA benefits by it’s protection in the Middle East and I named another country that receives the benefits of the protection you mentioned. And I supplied quotes from President Bush to support my statement.

Congressman Ron Paul sees an Escalation in the Middle East and he mentions Israel.

What’s so strange?

Israel SHOULD be smacked around and HARD. They have not only dispossessed over three million Palestinians since 1947 and killed probably 300,000 Palestinians but they were behind both Gulf War Crimes by both criminal Bushes. AIPAC controls Congres, they can get 95 Senators and 400 Representatives to support anything Israel does any day of the week. It was not big oil advocating this as well as the forthcoming escalation into Iran & Syria but shitty little Israel. I have never seen one small state cause so much mayhem, it needs to be totally replaced by a democratic secular state because when you add the Occupied Territories to the 25% Arab population inside Israel you at the least get a 50-50 Arab/Jewish split if not a slight Arab majority. What would the Jews here think if we called the US a Christian or Gentile State because Jews are only 2% or less ? It is no less racist to Israel a Jewish state. Oil was NEVER the reason for the Gulf Criminal Massacres mislabeled “wars.” The oil companies have been scapegoated by the Israel Lobby from the beginning. Bush’s utterly moronic statement that there is nothing “deeper” (?) than Israel’s right to exist is beyond belief. What about the Palestinians’ right to exist ? And frankly what person or group has any “right to exist” when you get down to basics ? Bush is another Christian Zionist nut. The ONLY good thing the UN ever did was the 1975 Zionism Is Racism Resolution, the only truthful statement to come out of the Disunited Nations. Later Dan Quayle bribed enough countries to overturn that but it remains factually true. Chicago, thanks for conceding on all points on the Waiters thread as I just noted over there. Ron Paul is the greatest person in Congress on ALL issues both foreign and domestic. There’s a rumor that he is Ayn Rand’s child via Sinclair Lewis but I have NOT been able to verify that. Carry on, folks, I’ll be back for further corrections as needed. And if some of you could give some fresh voices a chance here that would be in nice. As they say in the Army give someone else a chance at the pot.

I was under the impression we were speaking of the Persian Gulf? Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, UAE?  Israel borders the Mediterrean almost 1500 miles away.

Iran has a loud bark but lacks any means of attacking Israel. The SCUD variants lack the range. While North Korea has sold the technology for its ICBM to Iran, its missle has serious problems and Iran lacks the know how to fix it. The Iranian Air Force is a joke and without tanker support cannot reach Israeli airspace. So your thesis David is baseless and illogical. (Quotes aside)

Our presence in the Persian Gulf is for the benefit of Europe and Japan. Our Navy insures a free flow of oil for our allies as it has done for over twenty years.

If the defense of Israel was the primary reason for war we would have invaded Syria or Jordan.

Whattheheck, lobbyists are thick on the ground here too but don’t wield quite as much power as they do in the USA. Recently Canada has introduced legislation on the federal and provincial level to keep the lobby groups on a short leash. It’s important to make sure that lobbying and the influence the various groups have doesn’t become influence peddling which is a crime under Canada’s Criminal Code.

Not true, Tex. Israel always regarded Iraq as her most dangerous enemy because they were the only Arab army that fought in the 1948 outside of the Jordan Legion and Israel bombed an Iraqi nuclear power in 1981 and the Israeli Lobby & their Amen Corner as Buchanan aptly termed it were the biggest movers & shakers for the Iraq war both times under both Bushes.  In fact Netanyahu and Cheney & several neocons signed a petition to Clinton in 1996 urging him to overthrow Saddam Hussein. Clinton was content to starve millions of Iraqis with sanctions instead. There was NEVER any danger of Hussein cutting off the oil to Europe and Japan, au contraire, he was desperately trying to get the sanctions lifted SO HE COULD SELL IT.  As usual, Tex, you got everything assbackwards.

Tex, we were talking about the Middle East until you mentioned Europe and Japan. Israel is in the Middle East and relevant to the discussion in my opinion. I wasn’t aware I presented a thesis. Perhaps you would be so kind as to explain what it was?

I never said defense of Israel was the primary reason for war. But it is one of the reasons as the rhetoric makes clear. A hunt for weapons of mass destruction and a liberation in the name of Iraqi freedom were a few other reasons put forward to justify the war. Neither has been realized.

As for invading Syria or Jordan; it may yet happen. Just the other night President Bush was rattling his sabre at Syria and Iran while he talked about his new and improved plans for the war in Iraq.

David, don’t be naive. Israel’s dirty work is always our first priority and the big enchilada is not Syria but Iran, that has been the main neocon target all along, Iraq was just a means to that end. Bush knew that Iraq did NOT have WMD’s which is why he felt free to invade, North Korea wisely has them so we’re not invading. We supported Saddam during the worst excesses under Reagan as well as his invasion of Iran. The USA has never given a fiddler’s fart about freedom or liberation for anyone. Even Texass knows that we liberated a third of Mexico from Mexico.

“Spoils of War” aside.
A good article. Informative and well written.
Rip off reconstruction contracts and spOILs of war.
The invasion of the corporations as well as the miltary.

--------------------

(Mike, I am pleased you seem to agree with what I said ... except as noted by your statement about first priority. Exactly how do you think I was being naive if this is what you were referring to? Or maybe everything I said was naive? Clarification please.)

Talking about the why of an ongoing war is fine but right now I am concerned about the why and when of the next war. The never ended warre of all against all. And how to stop it if possible.

The same lame rhetoric that was used to create a threat before the attack on Iraq is now being used again with Iran and lately with greater frequency and intensity. There are mainstream articles with headlines like Israel plans nuclear strike on Iran, combined with the aforementioned sabre rattling, recent troop movements and Congressman Ron Paul saying;

While the president’s announcement that an additional 20,000 troops would be sent to Iraq dominated the headlines last week, the real story was the president’s sharp rhetoric towards Iran and Syria. And recent moves by the administration only serve to confirm the likelihood of a wider conflict in the Middle East.

The president stated last week that, “Succeeding in Iraq also requires defending its territorial integrity- and stabilizing the region in the face of the extremist challenge. This begins with addressing Iran and Syria.” He also announced the deployment of an additional aircraft carrier battle group to the Persian Gulf, and the deployment of Patriot air missile defense systems to countries in the Middle East. Meanwhile, US troops stormed the Iranian consulate in Iraq and detained several Iranian diplomats. Taken together, the message was clear: the administration intends to move the US closer to a dangerous and ill-advised conflict with Iran.

As I said last week on the House floor, speculation in Washington focuses on when, not if, either Israel or the U.S. will bomb Iran-- possibly with nuclear weapons. The accusation sounds very familiar: namely, that Iran possesses weapons of mass destruction. Iran has never been found in violation of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and our own Central Intelligence Agency says Iran is more than ten years away from producing any kind of nuclear weapon. Yet we are told we must act immediately while we still can!

—Congressman Ron Paul - Escalation in the Middle East

Despite the efforts of people like Congressman Ron Paul, it sure looks (using the duck rule) like the warmongers are spoiling for a new and improved and bigger and better war with Iran and I can’t help but fear it may not be long before they begin liberating Iranians of their lives.

Actually David the article is specific to the Persian Gulf. The other countries are mentioned in passing as to the Free Trade Agreements proposed.

The cut-off of oil would occur with Iran closing the Straits of Hormuz as was attempted in 1981 during the Iran-Iraq war. The Navy is in the Gulf to prevent this scenario from occuring.

Iraq picked fights with every neighbor at least once. Israel would have considered the defunct Iraqi dictatorship a threat as any reasonable government would. But the greatest threat has always been Syria, Jordan, and Egypt.  As none of these countries have oil reserves in any great quanitity and none are located in the Persian Gulf, they play no real part in this discussion.

The inclusion of Israel as a reason for our involvement in the Persian Gulf is a knee jerk leftist reaction to any situation involving the US military. Israel has an efficient modern military and is quite capable of defending herself.

The incident at the Al Tuwaitha reactor where Israeli F-15’s and F-16’s destroyed a French built reactor was done on a Sunday and also before nuclear fuel was loaded. The incident resulted in 10 Iraqi soldiers being killed along with one French engineer.

War is the last option for dealing with Iran, Syria, North Korea and every other insane demagogue running a country. Iraq was invaded under the same inteliigence reports provided to Congress and the previous administration. I could provide numerous quotes from Nancy Pelosi, Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry and many other “anti-war” Democrats. All condemming Saddam and promising miltary response.

After the invasion and finding of hundreds of prohibited munitions, missles, and chemical precusors it has become fashionable to dispute the reasons for war for political reasons. Saddam was the weapon of mass destruction. German chemicals, French factories, Russian munitions, and Saddam were not an acceptable combination.

Spoils of War
Oil, the U.S.-Middle East Free Trade Area and the Bush Agenda

Title and subtitle. Middle East.

Tex, other than that I could agree with some of what you just said but disagree with your statement ...

As none of these countries have oil reserves in any great quanitity and none are located in the Persian Gulf, they play no real part in this discussion.

... when it is quite obvious they are relevant to this discussion as they are all close neighbours.
How would you like a war next door to you?
Please give me your knee jerk reaction.

German chemicals, French factories, Russian munitions, and Saddam were not an acceptable combination.

Tex, you forgot the United States of America and the blood on it’s hands.

Pre-war, this represented the only imminent threat to business as usual for the U.S. kleptocracy:
_________
“Planning to secure Iraq’s oil for U.S. companies began on the tenth day of the Bush presidency, when Vice President Dick Cheney established the National Energy Policy Development Group—widely referred to as “Cheney’s Energy Task Force.” It produced two lists, titled “Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts as of 5 March 2001,” which named more than 60 companies from some 30 countries with contracts for oil and gas projects across Iraq—none of which were with American firms. However, because sanctions were imposed on Iraq at this time, none of the contracts could come into force. If the sanctions were removed—which was becoming increasingly likely as public opinion turned against the sanctions and Hussein remained in power—the contracts would go to all of those foreign oil companies and the U.S. oil industry would be shut out.”
___________

And the trade would have been in euros.

We totally subsidize Israel to the annual tune of at least five billion dollars and unlike every other foreign aid recipient we do not make Israel account for one penny, they only have a modern economy, much less a modern army, due to the US taxpayer, over a quarter of a trillion since 1948. You give me that money and I’ll create an army too. Iran never attempted to cut off the oil and neither did Iraq, the US Navy is there as a surrogate of Israel doing Israel’s dirty work, as usual. Texass, Saddam was NOT a weapon of mass destruction, Bush IS. And they discovered NO WMD’s which is a salient point that liars like you habitually evade. BTW, they never found “hundreds” of WMD’s as
Hans Blix told them they wouldn’t and as Scott Ritter has verified and he has forgotten more about the subject of WMD’s in Iraq than the rest of us will ever know. Nor did Iraq pick fights with EVERY neighbor, they did with TWO neighbors with FULL US support. In 1980 they invaded Iran fully supported by Carter and then Reagan. In 1991 they invaded Kuwait AFTER being given the green light to do so by the US Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie. Kuwait was never a real nation, it
was always part of Iraq and it was arbitrarily created by the UK in 1921 to steal Iraq’s oil. The 200,000 member Al Sabah Family runs it as a family preserve, 80% of the population are non-Kuwaitis and there is no real Kuwaiti “nation.” All sorts of bogus atrocity stories were circulated about “stolen baby incubators” and so forth over here and they were all lies, see Harper’s publisher John D. MacArthur’s book on this.  BTW, Beal, there is no evidence that Hussein was going to abandon the dollar, that was a last ditch lie promulgated by the neocons to try to give some justification for the unjustifiable. Our support of Israel is the sole reason for BOTH Gulf Massacres by both Bushes. Hussein got just as much dual use technology from the USA as he did those other countries that you mention, Texass. Even a friggin Tacocon should be able to figure this one out.
David, you’re comebacks to Texass’s lying neocon agit-prop are friggin weak, man. You need to study the dynamics of the US-Israel relationship, Alfred M. Lilienthal’s massive The Zionist Connection is a good start and I can recommend at least a dozen books on this subject.
When Saddam committed his worst crimes in the 70s and 80s they were against Communists and leftists in Iraq with full US Govt support. How come you pro-war liars NEVER mention that ?????
And the Reagan Admin claimed in 1988 that Iran, NOT Iraq, gassed the Kurds and the US Army War
College study agreed with that. So, Texass, WHEN was the US Government lying ???????

One thing stands out - the people of Iran are NOT Arabs.  They are Muslims.  All Muslims are NOT Arabs.  Think Indonesia - the most populous Muslim country in the world.

Hardesty, you have been running amok with numbers ever since you went off your meds. Actually, the true figure of US aid to Israel since 1948 is about $105 billion, much less than the $250,000 billion you wrongly claimed. Much of this came back to the US in weapons and other purchases. The loans received by Israel were all repaid. Israel has good credit and its state bonds have a high international rating by Standard and Poors.

Israeli GDP has been growing at a rate of about 4% annually over the past 15 years or so. High tech investment and US FDI is more responsible for this growth than aid. As I’ve pointed out before Israel has 90 domestic firms that trade on the NASDEQ exclusively whose market cap is equal to that of all 660 Isreali firms that trade only on the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange (TASE). Israel’s economy is highly globalized. That would esplain its economic success and modernization more than aid which created little internal development. This should be obvious to a guy like yourself. And I thought you were a libertarian.

Chicago, you are way off, it’s at least 250 billion from 1948, much more 105 billion from 1967 on. Averaging 5 billion a year in total military and economic aid but that doesn’t begin to count the many supplemetary monies not allocated in the regular foreign aid budget. 250 billion is indeed a quarter of a trillion. At the rate of at least 5 billion a year going to Israle the figure you give of 105 billion would only be for the 1986-2007 period, 21 years. Israel’s economy is highly statist, they are what Rand called pull peddlers. They have moved away from orthodox socialism since 1977 but the state is still entertwined in every aspect of the economy, more the fascist-national socialist brand of collectivism and this is all made possible by US subsidies, public and private. No, Israel is not a libertarian’s delight. Israel’s credit rating a few years ago matched that of Zaire and Bangladesh as Chomsky noted. Any improvement since then is pure manipulate the books puffery, sort of like their numbers games on WW2. None of the Israeli money is repaid back, that’s another lie and Congress has repeatedly waived repayment even for weapons. Israel’s is the ultimate parasite economy. Their nuke materials were stolen from here and France by local traitors a la the Pollards. Can give you refs here too. Anything we’d ever sell them would be at substantial discount with no interest and mostly we just GIVE it to them, unlike everyone else in the world. Chicago, still trying to lie for the tribe, eh ? Like the old New Republic, it was Uncle Joe Stalin, now it’s Bibi. You’re still a collectivist liar at the end of the day. Frank, you’re correct but to these ignorant bastards they are all the same.

David
Actually we have a low grade war in Northern Mexico between drug cartels and the federales. Heavy machine gun fire and mortars can be heard clearly at night. The Mexican Army has split into camps and some protect drug runners when they try to cross the Texas border. We have had several encounters between deputies and Mexican Army HUMVEES resulting in international incidents. I particularly don’t enjoy it but it has no real effect on my daily life.

War is the natural state of homo sapiens David. If you magically removed religion, politics, greed, hatred, envy, and every other source of conflict from the picture as Lefties keep proposing we would still find reasons to kill each other. Peace is achieved through superior firepower. I practice my right to be armed. Is this some secret desire to kill someone? No. It is insurance. I prepare for the worst so I can be surprised by the best.

Mike
For a loudmouth bigot you seem to have forgotten 20th century history. In 1981 Iran and Iraq began attacking neutral tankers in an attempt to close the Gulf to oil traffic. . ....Dumbass

Our shame in Iraq is not in weapons as Iraq has never had any US weapons systems. French and Russian weapon systems comprised Iraq’s military. Our shame is not in greenlighting any action of Saddams. As we helped him with intel and protecting his tankers. Our shame is in not condemning his use of Russian chemical weapons on Iran and the Kurds. We allowed our dislike of Iran to overshadow the murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians on both sides of the borders. Despite the attempts of Lefties to stop it, Saddam is dead. Iraq has been disarmed, and the war will end. The only area that is in turmoil is the Sunni triangle.Arabs pissed after losing power over the majority.  After Iraq splits into three countries they can choke on sand.

Iraq had plenty of US dual technology easily convertible for military uses. No, moron, Iraq attacked Iran in the Summer of 1980 during the hostage crisis at the US Embassy in Tehran. Carter sanctioned it and so did Reagan. Neither ever tried to close the Gulf to ALL tankers but were militarily attacking those ones which were supplying the enemy. It’s called war, dumbass and both the NATO & Warsaw Blocs were supporting Iraq. The chemical weapons were used by both sides just as the US used napalm on a huge scale in Indochina and also unnecessarily dropped the atomic bombs on Japan which had been trying to surrender for nine months prior. I’ve given book & periodical refs before on this and can do so again. But you have no interest in the truth. For a guy who complains about “bigots” you are the biggest anti-Arab racist I’ve seen, at least Arabs don’t use friggin newspapers for umbrellas as your kinsmen in Me Hi Co do. Backward Third Worlders even with a very thin TexASS veneer should not throw stones at other people of color. Your people regularly choke on their own tequila. If war was natural why do all govts have to force people to go to war ? I understand that you are the end product (chuckle, chuckle) of two very violent cultures, the Spanish and the Injuns, probably more of the latter. But do not assume all humanity is at your folks’ low level. BTW, Iraq has been disarmed for many years if you are referring to WMD’s and even before 1991 that was terribly exaggerated. Saddam’s death will only worsen matters and the barbaric way he died will only inflame our Sunni allies like Saudi Arabia so they will end up hating us as much as the Shiites have for years. The war will end ? What planet are you living on ? Jose Crackhead. Bush is getting ready to expand the war greatly and at least Saddam kept a lid on things and particularly the fundies, now THEY are running Iraq, Bush has created a second Iran. Something even a not so bright TexASSANIZED beaner boy should be able to figure out. We need
troops out of there and over here to keep your illegal kinsmen the hell out. Even the blacks can’t stand your ilk. Even the blacks. I’ve met many Palestinian Arabs and I’ll take them over the Taco Bandidos any friggin day of the year.

Once again Mike your stupidity is amusing. Your endless parroting of dubious left-wing rhetoric is banal at best. The relentless attempts to rewrite history are fumbling and ridiculous. Your dimwitted anti-semitism and various rascist slurs only serve to underscore the point that your a dumbass.  Keep those witty responses coming.

Ouch, Mike!

I lived in Texas for about 10 years.  There really are some highly intelligent people living in Texas.  “texasindependent” is not one of them.

Gee, Texass, is that the best you can do ? Kuya, I thought Texass was just another stupid Texass redneck but he told us he’s a tacocon driving a BMW yet ! After his own anti-Arab racism and Texass jingoism I decided to reply in kind. Frank, glad to know that !

Moronic Mike,

Israel, as everyone knows, has not actually averaged $5 billion per year since 1948. Anyone will tell you that. They in fact recieved most of their aid from private Jewish charities until 1967 and at no time did this aid ever come close to $5 billion in on year. The US aid began to flow in earnest after 1973 when Israel nearly lost the war with Egypt and Syria.  You are entitled to your own opinion but NOT your own facts. Why should you be able to make up nonsense and present it as fact? Provide a credible link or shut the hell up!!

Israel has killed far fewer Arabs than other Arabs. Israel hasn’t killed nearly the number of even one such Arab leader as Saddam or Hafiz Assad. Israel has probably killed about 50,000 Arabs civilian and military since 1947 and no more than this number. Check it out.

I didn’t write since 1948. At least since 1967. Five billion is the actual figure and I can give you the refs on this. I used to think it was merely three billion but I found that did not cover all economic and military aid nor did it cover the numerous more than annual supplemental aid. Israel in several years has gotten more than five billion in aid. I never said anyone was entitled to their own facts. The Washington Report On The Middle East is good here. So is MERIP and both are in DC. By credible source, you mean a slanted source that agrees with your prejudices. No, I won’t shut up and I don’t take instruction from you as you ought to know by now. The aid from private charities from 1948-67 came right out of the US taxpayer’s hide as these “charities” (multibillion dollar Jewish fundraising groups) get special tax-exemption privileges. In the 50s the West German govt was giving Israel tens of billions for phony “holocaust” claims and France was giving them weapons.  The ones that weren’t being stolen by Israel’s agents there and in the US.  No other country gets so much US aid, both absolutely and relatively. And no other country gets totally unmonitored aid as Chomsky noted in The Fateful Triangle. The Egyptians have to account for every penny of US aid, the Israelis none and Chomsky’s revised title above is a good source here. Kathleen and Bill Christensen have written several books on this subject and Cockburn has frequently published their work on this matter in counterpunch.org, both electronic and print editions. On this issue Alexander Cockburn is a good source though an old Stalinist. Previously Christopher Hitchen’s had done good work here. Cheryl Rubenberg had a good book on US-Israel which discussed this. There are many others but this will suffice since you never check out refs
anyway. Israel has killed at least 200,000 Arabs by 1986 alone and another 100,000 since then. Over 20,000 Arabs were killed by Israel in Lebanon alone in summer 1982 alone.  Israel as Chomsky has frequently noted kills Arabs at a rate of 10 to 1 and sometimes more. The only comparable Arab killings of Palestinians and that’s whom we are talking about here was in Jordan in fall 1970 AND FULLY BACKED BY ISRAEL AND THE US.  Assad never killed anywhere near 54,000 Arabs, even the alleged 10,000 figure in one city is usually exaggerated as 20,000 by Zionist liars and Saddam never killed anywhere near 54,000 Arabs in peacetime. Saddam mostly killed Persians (Iranians) in wartime.  I long ago checked out everything on this and all other subjects that I have written about. I just don’t get my refs from The New Republic or the Mossad like you do. I never defended the numerous Arab tyrannies most of whom are backed overtly by the US and covertly by Israel. You remind me of the apartheid apologists who used to say it was wrong to criticize South Africa since Idi Amin, et al, was much worse. Funny how your ilk minimizes everyone else’s casualties while maximizing your own by a factor of ten.

Chomsky is academic joke His “work” in linguistics is childish, ill conceived, and lacks any real functionality. To sum up 40 years of study he believes language skills are hardwired into the human brain. Despite countless studies across the Natural Sciences proving language is a learned skill.

Chomsky’s only useful contribution is the fleecing of left-wing morons into buying whatever ridiculous book he is selling. A cheap huckster profiting from selling what Lefties want to hear.

No real surprise that Mike a racist half-wit soaks up the bile from Chomsky the head racist half wit.

Robert Beal makes 2 good points regarding the oil contracts and the issue of Euros for oil, the latter probably more responsible for the war in Iraq than any other single factor. Two links below go to William Clark pre-war analysis for both Iraq and Iran. There are other excellent links there to other articles also. As always, just follow the money.

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CLA410A.html

It’s interesting to note that while Shiite Muslims are only about 20% of all Islam, they are concentrated in the gulf. It has occurred to me that part of the strategy in Iraq is that after we leave and the inevitable civil war with the Sunnis’ ensues, it will spread and Muslims will start fighting one another instead of us. Problem with that theory is too much oil might be lost/diverted in the process.

Mike-have you considered the fact that a big part of our support of Israel is to have one secure ally/staging area in this critical region? As you yourself have stated, we don’t help anybody without it serving our own interest.

David-I agree that we will attack Iran-think it was planned all along. Maybe they forgot to use spell-check? We really can’t allow them to continue selling their oil for Euros. The world reserve currency, until now, has always been that of the world’s largest creditor, not debtor.

The ability to acquire any specific language, or any specific combination of specific languages, is a learned skill.  These specific abilities to acquire specific languages are universally hard-wired.  Chomsky may be disputed for specific aspects of his linguistic theory, but the theory in general, that language is a hard-wired human acquisition, is generally accepted by all linguists.

On the other hand, specific languages, such as English, do tend to reinforce certain basic cognitive perceptions of our environment.  Sentences are almost invariably led by single capitalized letters, and followed by a multiple train of noncapitalized letters, interspersed with proper nouns and names whose primary property is that they are capitalized.  Capitalism, as such, may well be a learned acquisition.

Texass, you’re qualified to debunk Chomsky in linguisitics, maybe you’re also qualified to debunk Einstein in relativity.............. Chomsky has debunked the environmentalist tabula rasa thesis and none of those studies have debunked Chomsky, in fact 40 years ago was when Chomsky knocked Bloomfield and the Skinnerians off their throne for good. You’re as ignorant of linguistics as you are of history and political philosophy and you are as hardcore a racist as they come. Needless to say you can’t refute any of Chomsky’s political works either.

That Israel is being used, willingly or otherwise, to further US interests is a much more credible premise than its controversial counterpart: that the US is being used to further Israel’s interests.  That all parties concerned, the US, Israel and the Middle East in general, are drifting regressively to their respective fundamentalist roots in response to the unresolved crises of modernism is also apparent.  It’s also possible that American foreign policy is specifically intended to disrupt the production of petroleum in order to forestall the advent of peak production and the economic dislocations which are sure to ensue from a protracted decline in the supply of such a universally crucial resource.

Very interesting insight, Major. But do you really think those that can effectively communicate with the present administration could possibly be that far-sighted? I wish. I suspect we shall use Israel again to initiate the air strikes against Iran, and use the 2 carriers just deployed to the gulf as a backup in case Iran tries to retaliate. But your speculation is quite interesting, if unlikely. I totally agree about the emergence of fundamentalism on all fronts.

Chomsky is a fraud. Not only are his ramblings inane but also easily debunked. His 100 best lies are debunked here.

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/100chomskylies.pdf

Every savory whopper with footnotes. My personal favorite is when Amnesty International has to report not only they never had the information Chomsky quoted, but the information is bogus.

Here is another ass whipping done by bleeding heart liberals.

http://www.belgraviadispatch.com/archives/003126.html

Here is a spectacular debunking done by simply checking his source material against the actual information.

http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2004/10/chomsky_and_dec.html

Keep sending that money in. Chimpsky will spin you some new whoppers. ......Dumbass racist.

I’ve seen that site and I’ve seen the rebuttals too, unlike you I’m not afraid to view both sides. I’ve known Chomsky for 22 years, have reviewed books of his and we have had our share of disagreements as well as agreements. He has forgotten more on ANY subject than you’ll ever know. Go fuck yourself, you lowlife Texassan racist. I’ve rebutted Oily Ollie Kamm on this subject and others at great length. As well as the born again rightist psychotic David Horowitz.  Major, speaking of Chomsky, Jeff Blankfort actually rebutted Noam’s premise that the Israel serves US interests and showed that it’s the other way around. You can download Jeff’s lengthy on the web. Noam is wrong on this one because he discounts AIPAC’s influence entirely and AIPAC is the most powerful lobby in Congress far and away.

blondemike
You have rebutted donkey squat. Why would any rational thinking person waste the dollars or the time to read Chimpsky’s childish, ridiculous lies.  Having been debunked as a liar and a fraud, Noam attacks the person not the issue. Much like you.

I understand the dilemma of basing your philosophy on the retarded ramblings of a racist liar.  Nazi’s, Klansman, and members of the Nation of Islam share the same problem. While your racism is amusing it speaks to your self doubt and shame. Perhaps you have a small weiner, maybe you were not hugged enough as a small child, I think its because your a dumbass. Lacking any real importance you vent on the world at large behind the anonymity of the Internet.

You’re right, I have rebutted donkey squat aka texass independent. You are reduced to ad hominems, psychobabble and namecalling. You are not worth the seat off Chomsky’s balls you pathetic little redneck wannabe tacocon.

If not for the two Gulf wars, and the sanctions imposed on Iraqi petroleum production, world oil production may well have peaked ten years ago, with world-wide catastrophic economic consequences.  American foreign policy, for at least the last ten years, has been employed to fuel sectarian conflicts in the Middle East—Israelis against the Palestinians, the Sunnis (in Iraq and Saudi Arabia), the Shia (in Iraq, Iran, Lebanon and Syria) and the Kurds (in Iraq and Turkey) against each other.  I don’t agree with the strategy, but evidently the people who construct the policy apparently believe no other viable alternative exists.

The sources for Assad and Saddam’s casualty figures are not Zionist ones but respected international human rights agencies like Amnesty International and Human Rightys Watch (Middle East). These folks have established that Arab leaders kill more Arabs over time than does Israel. Also, you did state since 1948 for your absurd foreign aid figures to Israel . But you lie all the time like most fascists.

Cabdriver
Mike is a fascist.......That does explain the racism. But how do you factor in the Chimpsky worship, and virulent anti-americanism? Wouldn’t that would move him from fascism into socialism? But on the other hand David Duke and Cindy Sheehan are on the same page now so perhaps he could be facist / socialist / racist / dumbass........

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch ong ago admitted they could not document the Assad and Hussein figures and that they have whitewashed Israel for many years because of a fear of funding backlash by hystercial Jews like the cabbie moron.  No, I stated the total figure for Israel from 1948 was 250 billion BUT that 90% or more of that CAME SINCE 1967 WAR.  Prior to that German holohoax reparations and tax-exempt private US Jewish funds were the main source of Israeli aid. Little Texass Beaner Wannabe Redneck is calling his Mama a dumbass ????? Shame on you TacoBoy, you are a disgraceful racist and a debit to you’re race.

Glad to see we’re staying on the ‘high road’ here, and right on topic. This is the Chomsky thread, yes? I took a senior level course in transformational grammar; back in university during the ‘60’s when it was in the seminal stages. It was a poor introduction to this multidimensional thinker, and little remains-clearly-except certain insights from his discourses on language structure. His political writing would later give voice to unspoken thoughts I had developed over the years. His mental acuity is so far beyond my own that trying to really analyze his work would have taken a lifetime of study. “If the mental midget could measure the mental giant, as the foot rule measures the pyramid, there would be universality in human suffrage that in fact fails to exist. (Paraphrase-GBS)

As this is apparently an ethnicity forum also, consider Chomsky’s; the Ashkenazim tribe is less than a small fraction of 1% of world population, yet they account for 27% of the Nobel Laureates. God’s chosen people? Having none of the magical DNA myself, I feel I can look at all their numbers objectively. If I believed there was a god they would sure have been my choice. Chomsky is but one of many giants. See the irony here in your position, Mike? So to go off topic for a moment, here’s how I see some relevance between the phenomenon of one tribe that for whatever reason-there are many theories-got a real head start, (the people of the book?) and how it underlies much of what is happening in Iraq.

I believe the pride of the Islamic world was dealt a memorable blow during the 6 Day War. This tiny group (5 million) had defeated the armies of Allah so decisively it made an indelible impression on the collective psyche of Islam. These are people known to have a long memory regarding insult to their pride.

The main problem Palestinians present to Israel is one with global implications; demographics. The world of Islam has grown nearly 50% in the last 15 years, and the majority in most Muslim countries is below the age of 15. Iran is a classic example, and their oil reserves will be mostly exhausted in 20 years. This reality is a big part of why Iranians are seen as such a threat. The coming Oil Brouse, where they will be paid in Euros for their oil, will likely be the most immediate factor that forces the U.S. to act.

If we maintain the Israelis have no right to maintain an enclave for their ‘tribe,’ we better also explain that to the Hindu’s in India and the non-Hispanic residents of the U.S., along with the ‘natives’ of Europe and countless other groups. Lifeboat Earth is beginning to go under, and it seems likely only those that can effectively bail or row will remain on board. Iraq was a blunder, from any perspective. Now Bush is making it worse while we lose Afghanistan, another dilemma of our own creation. Time to start looking for CD’s in Euros?

RP, I don’t believe all the historical situations you list above are analogous. Let’s take the USA and Israel. There were at most several million Indians so-called living here in a huge land area
and 99% of it had no private property or title claims. Palestine is a very small area wherein close to a million Arabs were expelled in 1948, they were NOT Nomads except for a few Beduoins and they
had property titles and often even proof of ownership. And it is a much more recent occurence that can still remedied today by the right of return or compensation for not returning. Chomsky himself uses your argument as a reason to oppose a democratic secular state in Palestine and he is very quick to label as racists those who disagree but it doesn’t work.  I agree with you that there have been many Jewish intellectuals though they are still a very small number of the overall Jewish population and many like Chomsky have very mixed premises. As a group they have been hiding behind this holocaust crap for 60 years to avoid criticism that everyone else receives. Lifeboat Earth going under ? You’re way too optimistic !  Appreciate your thoughts here even when we diverge.

Thanks Michael-though I find your thoughts enigmatic as always. Regarding the Jewish intellectuals being a small portion of the total population, my point above is that there are a far higher percentage of intellectuals in this tribe than any other. Conversely, the Palestinians have the highest birthrate and lowest literacy rate (the two usually go together) of all the Islamic groups.

If titles are what matter, many in Mexico had deeds to property we commandeered long ago. Of course they also took the land from the natives of the migration 11 thousand years earlier, who had appropriated it from the pre-Clovis migrations. Might may not make right, but it sure helps in a fight. The Jews learned this lesson well in the forties, and have been quite successful in teaching it to others since then.

I have discovered very few know that 30-60 million starved to death in China during the famine there of the mid sixties. This was only 45 years ago, and far more-by any estimate-died there than in the Nazi pogroming. I think it is to the Jew’s credit they made certain their dead were not forgotten, and I worry they have been too successful and thus generated a backlash. Not sure why you seem so concerned with the details behind this Israeli PR campaign, or what solutions it would offer regarding their future in the Negev Desert if we accepted your premise that the holocaust was a hoax. They get plenty of criticism either way, some of the most strident from their own like Chomsky. So how is the number and exact circumstances of those who died under Hitler relevant to the choices we and they face in the Middle East today?

Personally I would like to believe the holohoax theory. If 6 million Ashkenazi really were executed 6 decades back, think of all the Chomsky’s and Einstein’s mankind lost. But that is in the past. What concerns me now is how many we will lose in Israel in the future. As always, most of the problem revolves around religious fundamentalism on all sides, and I fear over the last 25 years it has led many of Gods chosen people astray.

Again I would mention the demographics problem, and point out that what Jews face now is but a preview of what all advanced countries will soon have to confront. Habla Espanol, amigo? If not, you better learn. It will soon be the dominant language here in California. Que sera?

RP, not true on the Pals. They are considered the Jews of the Arab world and in fact have one of the highest literacy rates in the Arab world.  I’d generally agree with your observation about high birth rates and low literacy rates going together but this group is high in both. Of couse, many don’t survive the Occupation to make it to adulthood. Which may be a contributing factor in people deciding to have so many offspring on the chance that some may actually survive. Most of the rest of your comments I generally agree with. The Jews do have a higher percentage of intellectuals, it is a learning and book centered culture which is a high compliment to many Jewish families, perhaps most. Other groups, blacks, Latinos, white ethnics, Arabs could profitably emulate that very positive feature of Jewish culture. My wife who is Jewish in her more candid moments admits that a high ercentage of that culture consists of perenially disputatious narcissistic legalistic arguers.  But every group has its downsides. Irish drink, blacks commit crime out of proportion to numbers, Arabs steal, Serbs murder, etc and there are numerous exceptions to every rule or stereotype. I won’t get into nature v. nurture because I can’t tell where one ends and the other begins. I don’t fault any group for getting out a good PR campaign but no one goes to prison for doubts on Mao’s or Stalin’s or Pol Pot’s figures or the many victims of US foreign policy. In much of Europe, Canada, Australia, Israel you can go to prison for publicly doubting the holocaust standard version even if you acknowledge the basic evil of the National Socialists. How it relates today is that the perpetual holocaust campaign is being used to make Israel’s critics never get a fair hearing. Chomsky is only somewhat good here. It’s probably a tribal thing but he never voiced concerns for whites in South Africa or Rhodesia who had been living there continuously for much longer than most Israeli Jews about their fate in a black dominated society.  It’s normal hypocrisy and I’m not having a cow over it, just pointing it out. Your last sentence on California sums it up as I can agree from living here since 1973. Thanks for your intelligent tone and perceptive comments.

Live and learn. I’m trying to recall where I read that the literacy rate in Palestine was lowest in Arab world-maybe it was iliteracy rate?-but at any ‘rate’ I stand corrected. Perhaps the Jews learned a few things from Goebbels also? I tend to view most things quantitatively, but we are all influenced by the propaganda that bombards us from countless directions.

I definitely agee that stereotypes generally contain some elements of truth, and that it’s a slippery slope when we imprison people for their beliefs. As I hold the Jews in such high regard, I also worry that if some carry the anti-pogrom program too far, they may drop the R. But if it is too late, as you suggest, which side are you on? THAT, IMHO, is our real dilemma. There is much ‘justice’ in the Palistenian lament, as well as those from Africa and from our southern neighbors. But it’s all a zero sum game Mike, and we’re even runnin out of tuna. How do you think Americans would vote if it was between a military draft and just taking the gulf oil, or giving up their cars and large, centrally heated houses?

Somehow I strongly suspect you have a book in the works Mike, and I for one would truly like to read it. I think it is to the great credit of the ITT Webmaster that he/she has not seen fit to try and ban you, though I’m certain some have probably suggested it. Nobody is forced to read things they don’t want to here, and my appreciation of your outrageous style and energy has grown in the last week. Keep swinging; just focus on the space between breaths now and then. -Arpie

Mike ,

You have top be the biggest moron in history. In addition Tex has political categories confused. There is nothing socialist about BM’s rants. Fascists are also anti-American and blame the lasting effects of WWII, “the good war”, for the problems of the world today. One of the negative effects according to fascists like Hardesty, Buchanan, and others who can be found reading the National Website is the fact that the war boosted the US economy creating a broad based US middle class, strengthening its trade union movement and its political influence through the Democratic Party. Another thing it did which fascists regret is that it smashed fascism while allowing communism to emerge in such places as China and other parts of East Asia occupied and pillaged by Japan. This is the basic Buchanan gripe. He similarly advocated a strong Nazi presenced in Europe as a counter-weight to Soviet influence.

A possible third thing is that genocide was given a bad name. Not that genocide was prevented afterward, it wasn’t and there have been several since WWII mostly in Africa but also elsewhere. The emergence of Israel has irked fascists and anti-semites no end. Though leftists like Lenny Brenner and others stress the historic link between anti-semites and Zionism, anti-semites regret the very state with which they may have once made strange bedfellows.  Though Israel is very close to a fascist state if ever there was one, and has jettisoned any of its former “socialist” inclinations anti-semites like to think of this rump state as a source of incredible power and influence in its own right exersizing undue influence on the US collossus.  This is obviously foolish. Israel’s bombing of the Iraqi Osirik Reactor was in US interests. It set back Iraqi nuclear research many years. It was at least as important a reason as UN inspection teams as to why no WMDs were ever found in Iraq.

Buchanan believed that Iraq was a key ally against Islamic fundamentalism. This had limited value. A fascistic Buchananite world would pose fascist allied barbarians against barbarians of other kinds while constantly creating wars and fresh crops of extremist forces to conquer all at the expense of innocent people who invariably would die in these wars. A Buchananite world is a world of war without end. Remember he is a fascist not a old style conservative. Fascism is not a sustainable or mainstreamable system. It is a spontaneous, brutal, last ditch response to capitalist crisis. In the end it causes as many problems as it solves if not more so. This has been obvious since WWII. This is why mainstream liberal capitalists are afraid to let the fascist cat out of the bag again even when there is an enormous buildup of antagonistic political pressure on contemporary capitalism all over the entire world.

Chicago, I have already answered you at length on other threads and you’re opening sentence is what the psychologists call projection. Saddam was an ally against Islamic fundamentalism, it wasn’t a view not limited to Buchanan. A “fascist” to you is like a “socialist” to Scorp, it is all purpose general swear word that has no relation to reality. It is simply a way of ad homineming the messenger to avoid dealing with the message. For better or worse there was no “genocide” in WW2. It was a coined term, see James J. Martin’s book The Man Who Invented Genocide on Polish Jew Raphael Lemkin who coined the term. The US-UK killed millions of German civilians in the airbombing that the UK, not Germany, initiated in 1940 but I still wouldn’t label it “genocide.” Now when the overwhelmingly Jewish killers in the NKVD under Stalin killed tens of millions of Ukrainians, Balts, Chechens, that WAS genocide. Israel does NOT in US interests as the Pollards Spy Case proved, unfortunately it’s the reverse. Her 1981 Iraqi bombing was NOT in US interests as Iraq was a US ally at that time in the war against Iran. Frankly, Chicago, you need to get your traitorous ass back to Israel where you once lived.  Buchanan wasn’t even writing during WW2 so he never advocated a “nazi” anything. If the UK and France hadn’t got Poland to refuse to negotiate in good faith over the GERMAN city of Danzig there would have been no WW2 and no German armies in Europe.

BM (suitable initials for your ilk),

Buchanan’s advocacy regarding WWII is in retrospect, moron. The NKVD had almost no Jews and persecuted Russian Jews as much as it did others. This is particularly true since Stalin exiled Trotsky, a point which you gloss over. You cite nonsense works which are not held as reliable historic sources. You don’t know ANY history. The Poles were told to allow a corridor to danzig which they did. They negotiated in good faith on all German demands. The entire world knows that German territorial demands were ridiculous. They wanted broad swaths of Baltic border areas where there were majority poles and Balts. The Nazis started the war. They bombed London and Coventry as well as other European cities. They committed mass murder everywhere they went. This is not just a Jewish claim but a global one. The Germans today admit to all of it. They certainly wouldn’t if they weren’t guilty. The Poles were very anti-Soviet and pro-German between 1935, the year of Pilsudski’s death and 1939 when they were invaded. They supported German territorial claims in the corridor and even used the German invasion of Memmel in East Prussia to invade and annex teschen in Slovakia.  The world sat by and watched Hitler rearm. They watched him unilaterally abrogate every single aspect of the Versailles treaty without reacting. It was not necessary to invade Poland. Hitler invaded and occupied almost every country of continental Europe. What was the point? He is universally thought to be a madman. This is justified. He did in fact murder countless millions. This is one reason we went to war. Althroughout the Weimar period, germany recieved millions in loans from the US. By 1930, with the adoption of the Young Plan, almost all the terms of the 1919 Versailles treaty were revised or eliminated anyhow except for the demand for reparations. The Versailles Treaty is NO excuse because by the time Hitler invaded Poland he had entirely reversed the treaty and had be told by the UK to negotiate in Good faith. It was the annexation of Bohemia and Moravia in March 1939 that angered the UK. These area were majority Czech. You are a pro-Nazi moron that toes the Nazi line and misrepresents history. This is not my fault.

As far as Iraq is concerned the bombing of the Osirik reactor was certainly in the interests of the entire western world. For Saddam to actually have WMDs would be a legitimate cause for war and everyone agrees that whether or not he allied with the west in a senseless war on Iran he would have been a threat with WMDs.  The efficacy of the Israeli airstrike could be debated. Some feel that it actually inspired a much greater and more intensive effort by Saddam to develop a nuclear weapons program. This opinion is common in the Iraqi scientific community. What is known about the Materials Test Reactor sold to Iraq by the French is that it was an alarming choice. According to one source, “...an MTR design is useful for countries with established nuclear reactor construction programs, being used to test and analyze the effects of neutron flux upon metals used in reactor components. MTR isn’t useful to those countries which have no established reactor programs, UNLESS THEY ARE INTERESTED IN TRANSMUTING U238 to Pu239 TO MAKE A BOMB VIA THE HIGH NEUTRON FLUX CHARACTERISTIC OF AN MTR!!” It is further noted that Iraq possessed Highly enriched uranium which it used as fuel and which could be treated at the facility to produce weapons grade plutonium. The Iraqi government also possessed a fuel fabrication plant. In 1991, the IAEA officially declared Iraq to be in violation of its nuclear safeguards agreement. The Iraqis wanted to begin nuclear enrichment during their invasion of Kuwait. In January 1991, Coalition forces targeted the nuclear site near Baghdad and destroyed it. This is one reason no weapons were found by UN inspectors. There is no question that Saddam had nuclear ambitions since he came to power. This isn’t just my opinion but that of leading anti-war UK correspondant Patrick Cockburn who writes regularly for the London Independant and has authored two acclaimed, unequivocally anti-war books, “From the Ashes” and “Occupation.”

The NKVD and both its predecessor & successor secret police services were until 1945 exclusively headed by Jews and had mostly Jewish assassins. IHR reprinted a very recent piece from an Israeli paper on this subject, they properly labeled it mass genocide BY Jews. So you’re “peepul” are far from always being victims, Chicago Crabs. Stalin’s elimination of Trotsky had NOTHING to do “persecution” of Jews in the USSR. There was no such persecution until well AFTER WW2 in Stalin’s last years. Before that for decades there was Soviet government sponsored Jewish persecution by genocide of tens of millions of Russians, Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Lithunians, Muslims, Chechens. That is WHY so many people in the USSR welcomed Hitler as a liberator and 90% of the killings of Jews that were actually done by shooting, not nonexistent gas chambers, were done by Stalin’s victims, NOT Germans. The Poles never negotiated in good faith, see the leading UK historian, A.J.P. Taylor’s The Origins Of The Second World War and US historian David L. Hoggan’s The Forced War in this regard. You have been rebutted on this many times as you have repeatedly admitted. Versailles Treaty had NOT been completely reversed when Hitler invaded Poland, the Danzig issue was one of the major sticking points of Versailles and if it had been reversed he never would have had to invade Poland. Even a Portnoy Jackoff Artist like you should be able to figure that one out. the Nazis never started the WORLD war, the UK and France started the WORLD war by their declaration of warvon Germany. Churchill STARTED the civilian saturation bombing as his minister J. M. Spaight admitted in the book Bombing Vindicated and also see F.J.P. Veale’s Advance To Barbarism. The UK, not Germany, STARTED civilian mass saturation bombing. Hitler was not a madman nor did he purposefully murder millions, there was a WORLD WAR going on at the time and BOTH sides killed many millions of people. Iraq HAS JUST AS MUCH RIGHT TO NUCLEAR WEAPONS AS ISRAEL DOES AND ISRAEL ONLY HAS THEM BECAUSE OF TRAITORS IN THE US AND FRENCH JEWISH COMMUNITIES OF THE POLLARD SPY FAMILY ILK.  There was never proven by the IAEC or anyone else that Iraq ever had or was making nuclear WEAPONS, though again they have as much as Israel does to possess them or as the US does. We are the only ones to ever criminally use them. Iraq was a US ally in 1981 and Israel did us no favors. Iraq has only been planning to use nuclear power unlike Israel and unlike the US. Nice of you to quote a member of the Stalinist Cockburn family. Are you familiar with Alex’s views on Israel and US Jews blank check for same ? The Un inspectors never found any weapons of the WMD type in Iraq because they never existed there. It’s always a pleasure to rebut your stinky Zionist Racist behind, Shitcago Crabs.

BM,

Danzig was really out of the Poles hands since it was a legal ward of the League of Nations. The Poles acceeded to all Hitler’s demands except to relinquish the corridor to which Hitler was NOT entitled. The Nazis invaded Poland killing 7 million of its people. That’s when the UK declared war on Hitler. This hardly seemed necessary or justified. Your revisionist nonsense sources have been wholly discredited.

Iraq had no right to a nuclear bomb as per the IAEA rules and the 1963 NPT. What right did Saddam have to a bomb. The French were working on nuclear technology with Israeli scientists since 1949 according to US experts. This is only more support for the Israel as strategic asset theory. A nuclear armed Iraq would have been a disaster. The Israelis helped reverse a serious French mistake made in selling MTR technology to the likes of Saddam.

The NKVD was hardly a Jewish institution. This is a stupid and prejudiced claim by an uniformed fascist moron. You have as usual supplied no proof for your inane claims. BTW, you engage in ad hominim attacks far more than anyone I’ve ever seen on these blogs.

Are you guys in love? Or do you both just need a hug? It might be more instructive if you revealed your agendas in continuing this debate. Isn’t history just, at the end of the day, the propaganda of the victorious? How much of any of it can we be sure of? Why not expand on the philosophical aspects of this issue, like the ‘right’ to develop nuclear weapons?

Poland was running the show in Danzig under a very thin League figleaf.  Poland had the power to negotiate and they didn’t because of the untenable UK-French “guarantee” and because of delusions of grandeur that the Polish Fascist Junta had about their military prowess. The NKVD was as Jewish as the Mossad, check out the recent Israeli reference on ihr website about a week or so back and there has been a book or two on this. I gave you this reference in contrast to your blatant lie above and I HAVE REPEATEDLY GIVEN OUT REFERENCES TO YOU. You state without the slighest proof or argumentation that my sources, which you have never read (!), are discredited. On you’re say-so ? Whatever the number of Poles that were killed they were not all killed by the Germans, it was a WORLD war and the Soviets grabbed the most populated part of Poland and morons like you for decades accused the Germans of the Katyn Forest massacre of Polish officers done by the Soviets. Spare me your math after the six million Jews figure has been discredited with full sources given here. It was a serious US & French mistake, if that’s what it was, to give the Israelis nuclear weapons. Where did you read that “god” said only Jews in the Near East could have nukes ? Israel is in violation of that 1963 Treaty as is the US. What right did Israel have to a nuke ? Only a racist Zionist like you would claim Israel had a right and not the Arabs. Anyone with half a brain would realize Israel’s getting a nuke would set off a race for everyone there to do the same. I understand traitors in France and the US gave Israel the means to make nukes. The French Govt as such has never admitted doing so anymore than our government, if you can call the AIPAC run FedGov “our” government. Israel has never been a strategic asset to the US but a major liability that has alienated a billion Muslims and 200 million Arabs against the US. You do some honest math for a change. Eric, you’re right that the victors write the history books and also no country has a right to nukes. We need total worldwide disarmament and there is no will here to do so.  This whole thing started when I was rebutting the rightist Scorp on a point he made about Kristallnacht being the start of the holcaust. I pointed out all the conventional historians gave summer 1942 to summer 1944 as the inclusive dates for what has been called (not before 1970) the holocaust. I wasn’t even making a revisionist argument. Stalinist Chicago Cabbie lashes out at me with a crazed attack and initially I briefly responded giving sources. He always comes back with some ad hominems and empty assertions and I respond to set the record straight. No, I don’t even like him and I’m getting sick of this. The topic is important but the endless repetition of the same points is boring everyone to death. We need to end it and move on.

Mike,
I prefer you when you’re being civilised, as when you discuss with Recursive Prophet .

Cabby,
You too !
Years ago, and late already in the day, I realised that the Israeli state had become somewhat similar to the former oppressors of the Jews and many others .

Israel is very close to a fascist state, if ever there was one ....cabby 22jan 1135h .

We’ve disagreed before over the influence of the Zionist Lobby in the US.  I’d include the UK and France to that, but that’s a detail.

The simple fact for me is that any President or PM’s job is to look after the national interest first, as wisely as possible.

Well, I’m a simple soul.

One thing is sure . This Iraqi Adventure has created chaos where there was relative stability before, and now the propaganda machine is all IRAN .

Went to sleep last night listening to the BBC World Service, and woke up this am listening to an impressive discourse in perfect english .... genocide..... annihilation.... trial for war Crimes… 1938....Holocaust denial.....a “violent apocalyptic sect” (The Muslim religion apparently...) ....

After a half-awake half-minute concluded it must be Bibi Netanyahu. It was .

Two minutes later the BBC journalist ineffectually presented some counter-arguments, got steamrollered .

A month or so ago I heard Elie Wiesel twice the same day on two different french radios, the thursday before Bibi ‘s tuesday conference with the Ambassadors and Press announcing that Ahmadinejihad was going to be attacked in the UN.. Same ‘message’.

November 2005, 23hrs, the TV3 News presenter here pronounced as a “FACT” that Iran was building nukes.

Getting back to the thread, the Chimp surely liked to finish off his idea of his Dad’s unfinished business, but he is just a minor player. .

Looking around , the FTA argument complements the OIL one. Australia, Canada, Mexico and points south, somepeople somewhere reckon they’re going to win out on those.

I’m not so sure about that.

Frog, RP is civilized so I reciprocate. Happy to.
Chicago, Texass, Scorp, et al, are not so I reciprocate there too.

Being civil to the uncivil is how you civilize them.

In the land of fire, all who play the game are singed. Or as Mike might say, flaming contests are kinda like the special olympics. Even if you win, you’re still a retard. You do have to admire his passion, and learn to laugh at his vitriol. Gonzo journalism in cyberspace-the Glog! Learn to both laugh at and with Michael. He is surreal even in Oakland, said the Cheshire Cat as he faded into a grin.

I prefer nonflamers but I admit I too often take the bait. The bottom line is that too many people like the above vet here in Oakland hide behind false identities and never cop to their own failings. “Cheshire Cat” indeed ! You send us a crazed letter because one of the your staff was quite rude to my wife during that horrible day we had to call someone out for our beloved Tina because one of your imbecile colleagues at another vet place gave her the annuals in the nape instead of the safer hindlegs. I personally never had words with you, Mark or any of your staff. Nina was right about that one rude asshole who worked for you. And tell me, Marky, did Jeannette leave her will to you as some of your clients do ? I was told about this strange practice by someone who knew you. You should pick a less obvious disguise than the name of your pet clinic.
David, unfortunately you are wrong as regards the extreme flamers like Scorp, Chicago, etc. With less extreme ones your advice might work.

David
Good advice. Mike PLEASE kiss my brown ass. Thank you.

Arabs are savages. When no other group is present to kill they kill each other as is now happening in Palestine and Lebanon. Without any redeeming qualities they are a parasite on the underbelly of humanity. Why do Lefties weep for animals without a shred of civilized behavior in them? I think it’s the anti-american fan club mentality.

I find it amusing to read the screeds of liberals defending murderous radicals who if they were presented with the chance would kill their defenders as non-believers. Islam is a religion of hate, bigotry, pedophelia, spousal abuse, and political deceit. It’s practioners are ignorant savages locked into a self perpetuating system of poverty and destruction. Actions speak volumes that your words will never hide. Any reasonable person with a television can see the “peaceful religion” at work.

It is the standard practice for the dictators in Islamic countries to blame their societies ills on Israel or the West and export their radicals to kill and die elsewhere. With assistance from left wing reactionaries.  When these animals realize the source of their problems is the medival form of government they suffer under and apply their rage to their dictators perhaps we can have a little peace on this planet.

You ARE a racist, Texass. Thanks for admitting it and don’t come crying to me next time someone slights you. Your history is so untrue, racist and one-sided, it’s like a KKK member discoursing on blacks. Any person not brainwashed by the boob tube and who knew how to read would know that Christianity has killed tens of millions if not hundreds of millions over the last 2,000 years and that the barbaric ancient Hebrews wiped out the Canaanites, Phoenicians, Philistines, Assyrians, Chaldeans, etc. Your comments on a whole race are exactly what Hitler was accused of saying Jews, though he was never as extreme as you. Israel is the leading terrorist state and has killed twenty times as many Arabs as “terrorists” have killed Israelis and Israel is the OCCUPYING power, not the Arabs and THE ARABS HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE ALL MEANS WHATSOEVER TO EXPELL THE ISRAELI OCCUPIER. Tacocon beaner with the leeetle wiener, you’re madre is a puta.

Oh you kids! But David, you hafta admit it is ‘quality entertainment,’ and informative at the same time. Mike seems to be in the zone lately, and it reminds me of watching “All In the Family” years ago. There were times when ol Archie cleverly made a point that resonated, and reminded you there was plenty of irony to go around. Opposing viewpoints always include elements of truth. All axiomatic propositions contain elements that are not consistent with their own logic.

In a way I feel Mike has provided me with a dope-slap I needed. My view of Israel has long been slanted in favor of the Jews, and sometimes we require harsh voices to bring our ever wandering focus back to harsh realities. Hard to explain, but I have enjoyed the exchanges here. Reminds me of eating ‘prickly pears’ from cactus. Mike and others manners are brusque, but aren’t those on the fringes always such? Socrates considered himself the “gadfly of society.”

I suspect some of the users involved-remember I’m a newbie-need the heat and ambiance of a barbeque to spur the flow of ideas. If that’s what it takes, flame on. Look forward to the flare-up from my comparing Mike with Socrates. A squirt of digital lighter fluid for our cyber-barbie?

Edit: I have read the repeats of Mike’s history, so don’t bother to repost them here. I must say I find all the ongoing antagonistic interactions between various users quite interesting, and wonder about the beneficial therapeutic effects of venting anger against others and their views anonymously. In the metaverse, things are seldom as they seem. Wonder how many have stepped through the looking glass? How could anyone prefer TV to all the convoluted realities on display in these threads? 

To close with an off topic observation; I mentioned earlier I believe the war in Iraq is as much about the currency that the oil is traded in as who gets it at what price. The coming ‘Oil Bourse’ transfer of Iranian oil now being sold in Euros-along with Venezuela’s-may well be the real target. Follow the money? Anyone have thoughts/insights about this aspect of the current situation?

Mike, the advice works regardless of extremes. I practice what I preach and speak from experience. Try it and you will be pleasantly surprised. Consider that when one is uncivilized to the uncivilized that it becomes difficult to tell who used to be civilized (if either really were in the first place).

Tex, please and thank you (with a glimmer of wit even!) are a good start.
You took a step foward by following my advice but your rant about arabs and muslims was so many steps backwards that you may never catch up. Most muslims are no different than people everywhere and simply want to live in peace.

Arpie (Recursive Prophet), yeah ... that’s entertainment. Informative, instructive and irony aplenty.
Flame on, indeed! Your barbeque metaphor has merit but my only reservation would be that too much heat can leave the meat burned to a crisp.

The off topic observation actually brings us back to the original topic. The spoils of war and the currency the spOILs are denominated in are important to the hegemony the USA is intent on maintaining. Control of the Middle East is control of oil that other nations around the world need and thereby is control of those nations too.

Yesterday, Iraq. Tomorrow, Iran (and Syria).
And the day after that ... the World.

I can hear the sound of marching jackboots now.

BM,

The UK/French security guarantee given to Poland in March 1939 had nothing to do with Danzig. It was a response to Hitler’s illegal march into Czechoslovakia, a legally sovereign country, and conquering and annexing it to the Reich while the vast majority of bohemian and moravians were Czech. He also created an independant state out of Slovakia under a fascist puppet regime and gave Ruthania to Hungary despite the fact that Ruthenia was nearly all Ukrainian. Secondly, the guarantee to Poland was well known to the Nazis to have no teeth as the UK/French and others could not take on Hitler without the USSR. The UK/French “guarantee”, one sided and constantly undermined as it was by UK appeasement toward Hitler, was aimed at protecting Western Europe and not Poland. Chamberlain knew that Hitler could not fight on two fronts and by securing a Polish guarantee of mutual security gave the weak impression that if Hitler went to conquer Western Europe first, the Poles and others (maybe the Rumanians) would intervene forcing the Nazis to fight on two fronts, something Hitler badly wanted to avoid. In the end it was a moot point. Hitler conquered all of Europe from the Urals to the Atlantic before the Allies intervened.

Hitler always believed Poland should simply not exist. All the territory awarded to Poland by the 1919 Treaty of Versailles was always majority Polish including Polish Pomerania and Posen. This was taken from Poland in 1793 by Germany in the famous Partitions of Poland. The Poles simply won it back through Post WWI diplomacy. The exception was Danzig. Hitler used the issue as an excuse for general eastward aggression. He intended to invade and annex Poland no matter what the Polish response to Ribbentrop’s proposals in 1938 and 1939. Case White, the secret invasion Plans drawn up many months before the invasion is solid proof. The Germans were offered many compromises on Danzig including joint stewardship with a wide corridor connecting Germany and the port city and the right to build transportation lines. The governing of the City was already Nazified by council elections well before the invasion of Poland. The UK would never have gone to war over Danzig had Hitler taken it by force. In a sense, Chamberlain’s guaratees were to buy time for the West by directing Hitler’s aggression eastward. The real point of the story was that Hitler missed a chance for a Nazi/UK alliance against the Soviet Union by attacking Western Europe. This was the cause of Chamberlain’s appeasement. He saw himself in an anti-USSR pact with Hitler until he invaded Poland and then turned West to conquer everything up to the English Channel.

I have already responded many times over to every point raised above. Hitler did not believe that Poland should not exist, he was more flexible in his demands than the Weimar Republic. Hitler never would have been in any NONGerman territories if the UK and France hadn’t declared war on him first. See the AJP Taylor and David Hoggan books referenced on this and many other threads. You are just parroting the old Stalin Commie line about Chamberlain’s “appeasement.”
There are no secret documents about Nazi plans of conquest in Europe anymore than there are orders to exterminate the Jews. That is lying bullcrap of Stalinist origin. The territory that Hitler was interested in Poland was only the German territory and besides which Poland had ten times more former Russian territory to boot. Stalin was no fan of Versailles either. The germans were not offered any rational compromises on the actual German territory stolen by Poland under Versailles. The Poles only played games, see Hoggan particularly in this regard both his 1948 Harvard Ph.D thesis and the later book out of it\The Forced War. Again Taylor’s The Origins Of The Second World War is valuable here. There was nothing particularly “Nazi” about Hitler’s foreign policy, it was traditional German demands for treaty revision. Hitler NEVER had any interest in conquering western Europe, he even conceded Alsace-Lorraine to France, which Weimar never considered.
You are following a strict Communist Party Popular Front Line here and it doesn’t pan out historically. By the way, all govts have contingency plans for all sorts of reasons, that is NOT solid proof of “aggression” or that they weren’t acting in good faith. It is a backup plan, so again your Case White proves nothing about “Nazi aggression.” That the UK DID in fact go to war over Danzig gives the lie to you’re statement above.

Hitler did believe that Poland should not exist and said so in secret internal memos cited in the work by W. Shirer on the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. The Weimar position was irrelevant since they observed the Versaille Treaty and never invaded anyone. D. Hoggan is not accepted as a legitimate authority on the subject. The view that Hitler was appeased is absolutely universal and not at all limited to Stalin or members of various communist movements or parties.

The truth as many see it, however, is that Chamberlain COLLUDED with Hitler in order to debilitate the European Left and in order to bring down the USSR. It was Chamberlain’s hope to form an anti-Soviet pact with Hitler because the UK accepted all of Hitler’s revaunchism without a fight even after the invasion of Poland. Had Hitler left Western Europe alone there would have been no problem from the UK. An attack on the USSR without any other attacks west would not have elicited a response from the UK/French/US allies. This has been shown in UK Foreign Office documents and memos. The Naval Treaty between Hitler and the UK was a quid pro quo which Chamberlain & Co. observed impecably. The Uk was to have mastery of the seas without interference from Hitler’s navy which was to remain inferior to the UK’s while Hitler was to have a free hand in eastern Europe. Hitler got greedy and attacked Western Europe. Evidently, Hitler interpreted Chamberlain’s obvious collusion as a sign of military weakness and thus felt able to pursue aggressive conquest without consequences.

Hitler’s secret war plans and abuse of the Jews (two different issues) are not issues raised by Stalin but the all the West and objective observers in general. Hitler invaded and conquered all of Europe as was his intentions for years and was not stopped until very late by the Allies. You really don’t know history. In addition, you are a dumb fascist.

BM,

“Hitler NEVER had any interest in conquering western Europe, he even conceded Alsace-Lorraine to France...”
The chronology of this eludes me. Was this before or after Hitler took Paris? 
---------------
Recursive prophet,

“The coming ‘Oil Bourse’ transfer of Iranian oil now being sold in Euros-along with Venezuela’s-may well be the real target. Follow the money? Anyone have thoughts/insights about this aspect of the current situation?”

Haven’t you heard — we’ll be able to do without foreign oil very soon :-)

Interesting article on the “corn barrel” approach to energy independence.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/weekend/hottopic/?id=110009587

Mike-I know you have posted a lot on this topic in cyberspace, but if there is any particular link that you could endorse that includes a comprehensive summary of your viewpoint I’d like to read it so plese post a link. I plan to check out some authors you mention here today at the library.

Cabby-I would like to see some links to the papers you mention in your replies. Surprised you would give up so many ‘debate points’ at the end of your post for a gratuitous insult, when Mike managed to stay on topic without resorting to them. If we applied our view of the messenger as opposed to the message to your last post, we might be inclined to wonder about the validity/strength of your arguments as you felt it necessary to end attacking the man instead of his claims. But as I said before, whatever floats your boat. One suggestion I would make is to loop all this history into the current situation in Iraq. Surely there are other aspects of our past than Hitler’s intentions that are relevant. For example, I find it quite interesting the whole Hess flight is still under wraps by MI-6. Know anything about that?

WTH-Ever read the study done at Berkeley on the energy savings possible just by painting the roofs in California white? Here’s one link. In another life I was in the energy field-now depleted-and we knew back in the ‘70’s ethanol from corn was a net loss and a political solution backed only by big Ag. Figures it’s what Bush would propose. Then there’s the amount of oil we could save by reducing speed limit as Carter did, and the message it would send to OPEC and oil speculators that we were finally serious. It all goes back to Reagan in 1980-and Bush said at the start Ronnie was his idol.

RP,

I don’t really know you or anything about you so to be fair I am just going to assume that you are this incredibly innocent, unschooled young neophite with orange hair, a few rilly cooool tattoos, and some strategic piercings. OKAY??

RP, what links do you really need. I have given William Shirer’s exhaustive 1,600 page volume called “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” as well as some other sources including a left revisionist one called IN OUR TIME: The Chamberlain-Hitler Collusion by Alvin Finkel and Clement Liebowitz. Both are quite excellent and highly detailed diplomatic histories of the period.