Preaching Revolution

“In his book Irresistible Revolution, 30-year-old author Shane Claiborne, who is currently living in Iraq to “stand in the way of war,” asks evangelicals why their literal reading of the Bible doesn’t lead them to do what Jesus so clearly told wealthy and middle-class people to do in his day: give up everything to help others.”

Jesus also commands him to kill all those who will not accept him as their king(Luke 19:26-27). Why isn’t he doing that?

Because like all Christians he cherry picks. If you want to be Christian, you are required to believe all of it without question. Murder your sassy children, burn Red Lobster to the ground. Smite the non-believers and take their women as your slaves. The character of Jesus repeatedly endorses all of these things

If you question, you lack faith and are going to hell. This is the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe.
If he wanted you to think, he wouldn’t have given you a book to tell you what to think, and sadistically punishing you
for doing what he knew you were going to do from the beginning of time

Or you can join the rest of us in reality.  The intellectual dishonesty of most people, whose rational brains fight against the ludicrousness and horrific things they see in that book is what allows fanatics like Robertson, Fallwell and Bin Laden to do their dirty work. Moderates breed extremists, it’s time to end religion in this world as the ludicrous fairy tales it really is, and for those who can’t stop believing on their own to get the mental help they so sorely need.

Thanks, WW. I’m so sick of these goddamn christculters and their irrational nonsense.

“You will know them by their fruits”—Matthew 7:16.  Therefore, as a non-Christian, I went to the Woodland Hills Church home page (the one in St. Paul, Minnesota, since I live in Minneapolis) to see how they act on their revolutionary impulses.  The sermon you mentioned was reported in July, according to the NY Times, so maybe they need more time to put up revolutionary activities on their web page.  Or maybe they have to go under the radar, like the pastor telling high-income members to pay their workers more or something.

That having been said, Wooddale Hills Church’s home page looks no different (no better, but also no worse) than any other church home page, traditionally “progressive” (e.g. UCC, Unitarian) or otherwise, that I have seen.  They do a soup kitchen type thing-- like many other churches including much smaller ones-- and they help out elderly and handicapped church members-- great, and again like many other churches.  They have a third world mission program that looks just like the one my mother went on for her moderate-to-conservative Methodist megachurch in the South.  They have a “biblical financial planning” course which really could be radical (if they tell high-earners to pay their workers more, that is) and if that is what it is, it’s understandable that they don’t say that on their web-based advertising for it, which just talks about normal financial planning things like debt and savings and charitable giving.  They have a rather humorous page attempting to “minister” to the Hispanic population of the Cities, which is growing, by trying to “present Christ” to them.  Last time I checked, most Hispanics in Minneapolis-St. Paul were Catholic, but I guess that means they aren’t Christian, right?

Based on this admittedly cursory glance, I would have to say that they mostly seem to be plugging in as a small piece of the existing Twin Cities philanthropic community, of which I have been a (secular) member as a worker and a volunteer for years.  The Twin Cities is known for a vibrant nonprofit community, mostly progressive, and the reason you may not have seen 3,000 of us non-church-based workers and volunteers in one place, is because there are over a hundred different organizations we are spread out among, working all sorts of different schedules.  Of course, sometimes we are all in one place-- Paul Wellstone’s funeral, antiwar marches, etc.  You can fill our basketball stadium if you present the right progressive political candidate-- I’ve been there.

Are church volunteers important to the battered women’s shelter where I used to work, and especially to Habitat for Humanity where I worked 10 years ago?  Sure!  Are they the only ones, though?  No-- hell, even Habitat, which is explicitly an “ecumenical Christian organization” that accepts secular volunteers too, depends rather consistently on corporate volunteer groups (e.g. teambuilding exercises & corporate philanthropy) to get any work done during the week.  Are there flaws in our organizational structures, where we could learn things from any other group such as Wooddale Hills?  Sure!  Is there one big flaw, namely, that the corporate work-groups and corporate or high-income big donors that make a lot of this nonprofit community financially solvent, are the same people who could solve local poverty problems directly by paying workers more, or permitting unions?  Absolutely.  I make no claim that the nonprofit social service agencies are revolutionary, and I think probably we do need some new group that is.

One thing about our existing nonprofit community here in Minneapolis-St. Paul, and our umbrella organizations like the United Way, is that most of them follow the letter and spirit of our state’s non-discrimination laws, including affectional preference and marital status.  Maybe I should stay where I am.

Dave White
Minneapolis

In a free society there would be no nondiscrimination except to prohibit discrimination by a government agency.

Left out “laws” after “nondiscrimination.”

I am glad for the news that there are left-leaning Christians out there asking, “okay - we read all this stuff and get preached to about this stuff.  When do we DO it?”

Serving those in need, fighting for human dignity peacefully, rejecting the consumerism and greed of free market capitalism and commercialism, taking care of our environment.  These are all viewed as the liberal agenda, but they are consistent with the Christian call to follow Jesus.

I am disgusted that one verse out of context from a parable is the impetus for someone to outright reject this “new” Christian movement. That kind of hateful rhetoric reminds me of the Right wing smear tactics we all suffered when questioning the validity of the motives to invade Iraq in 2003 and which continues today.

We do not all have to agree on our religions/philosophies to work together to make the world better.  Wouldn’t it be better to be respectful rather than react in fear and hatred of something you don’t understand?  We lose if we let every difference divide us - we each become a nation of one with only our own personal interests to defend.

We should let go of stereotypical thinking and accept that not all Christians are of the Robertson/Falwell ilk.  Some actually embrace the doctrine of Love your neighbor as you love yourself, the Beatitudes, and the Sermon on the Mount.  We would all do well to accept that all humans are flawed and not as perfect as we think ourselves to be.

Peace!

We should let go of stereotypical thinking and accept that not all Christians are of the Robertson/Falwell ilk.  Some actually embrace the doctrine of Love your neighbor as you love yourself, the Beatitudes, and the Sermon on the Mount.  We would all do well to accept that all humans are flawed and not as perfect as we think ourselves to be.

That doesn’t change the fact that they enable the Robertsons of the world by encouraging their fairy tales as reality, and making questioning their faith a social faux pas.

Just because they do not practice those aspects of their faith does not change the fact that they are required to do so, and that “Love thy Neighbor” and “thou shalt not murder” only ever applied to your neighbor JEW, and don’t murder your fellow JEW”. It never applied to nonbelievers or other faiths.

Intellectual honesty is the first step

Tics, that stuff is intellectual poison both collectively and individually. People are not at all the same and we properly make discriminations.  Christianity is the Jews’ revenge on the Gentiles as Mencken noted.  It is an anti-intellectual, anti-life miasma of bogus biblical legends mostly recycled from the Arabs before the curse of Islam. The Christ Cult has been the main poison sapping the strength of western man. All the good things, free markets, sex, pleasure, profit, self-interest, rationality these nuts condemn in favor of everlasting sacrifice to a fictional character born of a virgin mother and resurrected 40 days after his execution on the cross by the Romans, who were properly getting tired of his incessant pinko bullcrap. Left christers are no better than right christers, bad cess to both ! That includes the religion of communism and its first cousins, liberalism & socialism. You gotta stop listening to Nymp Chimsky. Maybe some patriots in Massachusetts might want to nail his bony old ass to a cross.
WW, the ancient Hebes were vicious racist bastards, they wiped out most of the Canaanites, Assyrians, Phoenicians, Philistines, Chaldeans, etc. That Chosen People nonsense is racist to the core and has been responsible for much “anti-semitism’” though the semitic lineage of nonArab Jews is questionable, see The Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler.

“That includes the religion of communism and its first cousins, liberalism & socialism”

Communism installs the party as your new god, and that you should suffer for, and serve your god. It’s no different from theistic religions in most respects. The only reason it’s “atheistic”, is that like all religions it hates competition. If you look at Soviet era laws andstructure, you’ll find that Communism, like all dictatorships is a conservative movement, based on totalitarianism, suppression, and control by force. It uses socialism as a camoflauge, nothing more.

Liberalism and socialism are nowhere close, as has been well demonstrated by our friends in Europe.

Liberalism is practically identical to socialism and has been at least since the Progressive Era before WW1. You may be thinking of the original laissez-faire liberalism but that has been dead for a century.
Socialists now prefer to rule through regulation and taxation rather than nationalization. Same as liberals. Communism IS socialism, the so-called ‘anarchist’ stage of communism is never reached. All the communist countries were state socialist economies and societies. Socialism itself is a confused conservative movement, using the Enlightenment but with coercive means, see Left And Right:The Prospects For Liberty by Murray N. Rothbard, downloable at the lewrockwell.com website. Don’t bother recycling that old Comrade Nymp Chimsky bullcrap about socialism never being tried, it has been in all the Communist countries and has failed there as well as in the welfare police states of western Europe where you go to prison for questioning the holocaust conventional version. Religion is an evil but not all evils are religious though communism-socialism, both based on identical Marxian premises is a religion too.

All “isms” are sectarian and as such unable to provide a loving and protective umbrella for all. Man has been using only part of its brain, and thus enlarged its “mind that measures all” creating in the process its own mantras (some of them being “a million dollars”, “competition”, “it’s never enough") so as long as we continue to justify our own self-destructing selfishness and avoid our responsibility towards the preservation of the planet for future generations, all we will be doing is fool ourselves in the name of any “ism” (including patriotism)

The Prospects For Liberty by Murray N. Rothbard, downloable at the lewrockwell.com website. Don’t bother recycling that old Comrade Nymp Chimsky bullcrap about socialism never being tried, it has been in all the Communist countries and has failed there as well as in the welfare police states of western Europe where you go to prison for questioning the holocaust conventional version. Religion is an evil but not all evils are religious though communism-socialism, both based on identical Marxian premises is a religion too.

Considering that all the communist countries are ruled by an elite class, who lives a life of luxury while the other 98% wallow around in the essential dirt, no, it’s never been tried

True socialism is that everyone is equal, and recieves the same.

Western Europe has found the best balance yet between capitalism and socialism. Guaranteeing the basic needs while leaving plenty of room to grow and aspire. Even then it’s not perfect, and I doubt any of them will be

You’re simply a conservative fundy type who sees any obstacle to your greed, or the possibility that you have to give somethign back to society as a grand offense.

True socialism can never exist then because equality is a total myth.
I’ve never received any funds and have actually worked in the market all my life. Never worked for a foundation nor have I ever been paid for my views. Western Europe is a total failure and the last grasp of you statists now that all your Commie paradises have been totally discredited. Read Rothbard and learn something but being who you are I realize that may not be possible.

“Western Europe is a total failure and the last grasp of you statists now that all your Commie paradises have been totally discredited. Read Rothbard and learn something but being who you are I realize that may not be possible”

Ladies and gentleman, I give you the Bush voter and conservative poster child.

Rothbard, for those who don’t know is the father of anarcho-capitalism, or as most people like to call it today, “libertarianism”. The celebration of greed and practiced sociopathy where no one matters but yourself

Get mental help. Sociopaths are dangerous to everyone. Negligence and deliberate inaction is harming other people.

Mister Pooh Pooh Pants, I agree with Szasz, another libertarian, on psychiatry, so I’ll decline your kind suggestion above. I have already identified Rothbard on several different threads here so I think people are free to ignore your ASSertions and read him directly. I never voted for Bush and have no desire to conserve the present statist-collectivist disorder, so as usual your remarks are way off base.

Mister Pooh Pooh Pants, I agree with Szasz, another libertarian, on psychiatry, so I’ll decline your kind suggestion above. I have already identified Rothbard on several different threads here so I think people are free to ignore your ASSertions and read him directly. I never voted for Bush and have no desire to conserve the present statist-collectivist disorder, so as usual your remarks are way off base.

You’re conservative, an anarchist and insane. Of course you don’t want to get mental help, very few mentally ill people do. I have read Rothbard, extensively.

You are a sociopath, just like he was, and you need to get help. You’re obviously also about 6, so grow up, get medicated, and learn to live in society

Omigod ! A crazed white boy who’s never read Rothbard and can’t tell the difference between a conservative and an anarchist. The only people I know who still use the psychiatric smear are aging lefties of Jewish descent. Everyone else knows psychiatry is a fraud and it is ALWAYS Jewish males, the females like my wife know it’s a fraud. I know I’m young looking for my years but am a little older than 6. Read Thomas S. Szasz, MD, books “Insanity” and “The Myth Of Mental Illness” they show psychiatry to be a bigger fraud than the Holohoax.  Have a good day, Mister WickyWoo.  And watch your mouth because Mommy will have to spank your tush again.

So now we’ve established that you’re an anarchist,bigot, sociopath, probably scientologist, and holocaust denier

Let’s look at your handle, “blondemike”

Hmm, where do all those things come together?

I’m willing to be money our friend has at least one swastika tattooed on him somewhere.

Holocaust revisionist, no tatoos, not a scientologist, not a bigot, your wrong as usual, Mister Pooh Pooh Pants.

Yes, because a bigot is always the LAST one to blame it on the Jews

Pray tell, what is the difference between a revisionist and a denier? Are you just claiming that not as MANY died?

If it looks like a Nazi, smells like a Nazi, probably is one. I’m sure you’re quite proud of your pure Aryan heritage right?

No gas chambers, no systematic extermination, Frank existed but Diary a fraud, maybe 1 million Jews died of all causes in Europe during WW2 and I can refer you to several works if your interested, which you are not. Not an aryan, Jewish wife of 18 years said Jewish males like you are the reason the intermarriage rate is between 50 and 80%.
Live in a mostly black neighborhood, serious problems but then my best workers are black.
Ok, I DON"T care what you think, not trying to convert you, please go do the anatomically impossible to yourself. Don’t waste my time any further.

“{No gas chambers, no systematic extermination, Frank existed but Diary a fraud, maybe 1 million Jews died of all causes in Europe during WW2 and I can refer you to several works if your interested”

Oh give me a break. You’re going to cite me Fred Leuchter’s covert trips to the death camps, on the dime of Ernst Zundel, a criminal holocaust denier currently serving 5 years in jail for his lies

Leuchter had no idea how to test for cyanide. The man is simply someone who stumbled into maintaining and building execution machines, and has no clue when it comes to the kind of science needed for the work he was trying to do. He’s not even a licensed engineer!

Cyanide sits on the surface of materials and only penetrates a few microns. What he sent the lab was a bunch of pebbles he chisled from the walls, with very little exposed surface area, and no guide on what they were looking for, besides “toxics”. Even if they had known, there wouldn’t have been enough material to properly test for cyanide

Now considering we have reams of record books, thousands of eyewitnesses, so much proof that it’s virtually incontrovertible, I’ll lable you delusional as well

Leuchter’s four reports are very good but even much better is Germar Rudolf’s massive report along with his updated report on Leuchter. You are peddling the hysterical establishment line on Leuchter, better to go to the VHO website and download Rudolf’s report along with all four Leuchter Reports. Leuchter was the leading US authority on gas chambers and he certainly does know how to test for cyanide. Anyone knows that most eyewitness testimony is worthless as was shown by the hundreds of false witnesses at the Demjanjuk Show Trial before Israel was forced to acquit him. FJP Veale’s Advance To Barbarism on the Nuremberg Trials as well as David Irving’s book on same thoroughly debunk both the contradictory testimony as well as the whole premise of the Stalinist Show Trials. Most engineers I knew in Vietnam were neither licensed or in many cases even degreed. You knew the work or you didn’t, only a statist asshole like you would think a govt license would prove anything. Rudolf is a chemist, they revoked his Ph.D for questioning the Holohoax, a crime in Germany. They don’t jail flat earthers so that tells something about the integrity of their orthodoxy. See his Dissecting The Holocaust wherein he goes in copious detail with pictures about cyanide, staining, etc. I warn you that it is a big book but it does have pitchers so maybe you can try to tackle it.  But you need to read it and stop wasting my time with your stupid remarks.
Go to ihr.org and vho.org websites, don’t waste my time on this. You are the type of imbecile that makes me (in a bad mood) wish there had been a holocaust (even the term meaning death by fire is a lie as regards Jews in WW2 Europe.) Tough it would appply to the millions of German and Japanese victims of Allied bombing. As far as your everyone knows this type of vox populi “argument” it’s as cognitively worthless as it was discussing Rothbard, Rand, et al. Take your hemorrhoid pocked face and get out of my life. Go lick Doctor Dick.

The wonders of the Internet: spewings from a nutcase on an eminently serious subject. The article made the basic point that Christians seem to get folks pouring into their snake-oil seminars, of any dubious stripe, while unions don’t even have a union hall anymore. Thanks - is it possible to state how low politics and intellectual life have gotten in this country, or will we just keep getting more and more bad news atop the dung heap? Anytime a “progressive” argues for some kind of “alliance-building” the principles are instantly lost - Jim Wallis and his “covenental sex” had me rolling- what an ascetic fraud…

Yeah, well, nota, if you could withhold your postings that would reduce the nutcase quota.

It’s all the zionist conspiracy, right Nazi?

I agree with you, Dicky poo poo, that Zionism is form of national socialism and racism.

Do you even know what socialism means?

I’d like you to define itfor us in your own words to show you actually understand it

Collective (read:government) control of the means of production. The fascist form of socialism is government regulation and control of business without necessary nationalization, like the so-called New Deal. The Nazis did nationalize medicine and automobile production (Volkswagen). See Socialism by Ludwig Von Mises for a thorough analysis and demolition of all forms of socialism including the social democratic mixed economy welfare statism. Warning: socialists and Communists in the West call themselves “progressives” as liberalism has gotten such a bad odor. There were 19th century utopian socialist like Robert Owens but they were superceded by the so-called scientific socialism of Karl Marx and F. Engels.

So in other words you have absolutely no idea what it is, and immediately launched into your tirades written by your anarchist, sociopathic idols

What ??????????????????????????

Two corrections to the article.

1. Shane Claiborne is not in Iraq, he is living in Philadelphia and is speaking at Mars Hill on March 21.

2. Its not all that unknown, Cathleen Falsani has written about it in the Chicago Tribune, there are two 2,000+ churches in the Pacific Northwest that are preaching it along with Mosaic in Los Angeles which was featured on CNN.  The grassroots of this is in smaller groups all over.  Nearly every mainline denominational church that I am familiar with has a small group of people that are in the fringes of the church leadership but very active outside the church.

Blondemike, Wickywoo, these are not your everyday run-of-the-mill Christians.  They include in their ranks the likes of Bono and Francis S. Collins, director of the Human Genome Project.  Just this weekend I spent 4 days serving in the slums with a chemist, a biologist, and a civil engineer with a Masters in Physics.

As for the comments about supporting Robertson/Falwell politics, I ask you why would the people that are described in this article support anyone that does not represent their interests - fighting poverty, fighting HIV/AIDS, helping at-risk youth away from self-destruction, community development (think Habitat for Humanity), etc.?  The bottom line of these people is that Jesus doesn’t need a spokesmodel or a political mouthpiece- he needs the truth that is found in action. 

If you believe in fornication-go fornicate and change the world.  If you believe in using drugs and abusing alcohol - live it up and prosper your whole city.  If you believe in survival of the fittest - get busy and bull your way through life and watch the garden of hope grow fruit around the seed that you are sowing.  We are just serving, giving, and loving.  Wow, how revolutionary, how simply earth-shattering, how nowheresville is that?  Why would anyone want to do it?  There is no wealth in it, no power in it, no status in it.

Unless you truly risk something it isn’t worth having.  We risk in Love because being in it is worth so much.  It is valuable because it can be taken away.  Revolutionaries for Christ take the ultimate risk.  We give our lives away (not just a vote, but everything we have) to experience the true value of it.

IF they’re Christians, they are required to believe. Period

They are delusional, muderous, and if they’re that intellectually dishonest that they do not kill, murder and mame in the name of their god, they’re completely untrustworthy as well.

Love is not possible under Jehovah. You are only permitted to love your fellow believers. Read your bible, and not just the parts taht make you feel fuzzy. Questioning your bible means you lack faith, and you will be sent to hell

You must believe blindly, and be delusional and dangerous to be a Christian. It’s in the handbook. Deal with it, and join the rest of us in reality. Until faith is scorned as the learned mental illness it is, humanity cannot progress

No matter what the good intentions are, they and you are enabling the Robertsons and Falwells by putting religion in that untouchable space
Moderates give birth to and enable extremists. If there’s no one around to delude their minds as children, the problem is isolated only to those who are biologically mentally ill in the first place

Christianity is simply a deranged Jewish cult, the Jews revenge upon the gentiles as Nietzsche put it. It is as bad as Judaism and Islam. There is no such thing as biological mental illness period, see Szasz. If it was biological it would be a physical disease, the only kind there are.  WickyWoo Poo Poo Pants is a Stalinist piece of excrement.

Addition to the above correction: Shane Claiborne has lived in the Kensington neighborhood of Philadelphia since 1998.  It would be incorrect to state Shane currently (or otherwise) lives in Iraq.  Thanks in advance for making the appropriate changes.

Too bad for the Nazi there have been many physical signs, detectible by physical movements, CAT scans, EKGs, and brain chemistry analysis that are common only to people having mental disorders

Go talk to a doctor, I’m sure he can tell you all about yourself

Your biological psychiatry is an utter joke. See Toxic Psychiatry by Peter Breggin, M.D. and Insanity by Thomas S. Szasz, M.D. The only reason for any difference in brains of so-called mentally ill is the drugs that they have been taking. No physical movement, cat scan, MRI, EKG or brain chemistry ever showed “schizophrenia” or any so-called mental disease, also see Schizophrenia: The Sacred Symbol Of Psychiatry by Szasz. Psychiatry and psychoanalysis are simply frauds through and through. Largely Jewish rackets perpetrated by the most mediocre of intellects. Now goyim are taking it over through MSW, MFCC, Ph.D programs but still the same old fraud. The trick would be if the doctor could even tell you about himself. Going back to Soviet agent Alger Hiss there have always been the prostitute Jewish shrinks peddling the mental illness line to discredit political opponents. Remember the 1964 smear on candidate Barry Goldwater by Ralph Ginzburg and 2,000 psychiatrists ? Goldwater went to court eight years later and cleaned that stinky little Judenrat’s ass in a major court suit. WickyWoozy, you are a piece of Stalinist SHIT and I am ashamed of you.

You know, it’s going to be entertaining to see exactly how many crazy nutcase references he’s going to keep pulling out

“I’m not a Nazi, I have a jewish wife, but I blame everything on Jewish conspiracy and name myself “blondemike”

So let’s see Mike. I’ll be happy to go to court with you where you can prove all of your “facts”, and I’ll bring reality and the experts. You lose and you voluntarily commit yourself to a mental institution for a minimum of 6 months

WOOZYWOOASSHOLE, if you had libelled me the way Ginzburg did Goldwater I’d take your ugly old sanhedrin ass to court and win. But you are a nobody hiding behind an alias and your endorsement of the old Soviet psychiatric tactics is exactly what I’d expect from an old Communist Holocaust Denier like you. Your face looks like David Irving’s hemorrhoids on a very bad day. I stand by my refs.

Boring old Mikey
Still beating that dead revisionist horse.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/

For the more literate among us I would suggest......
“The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” by WIlliam L. Shirer.
“Inside Nazi Germany: Conformity, Opposition, and Racism in Everyday Life.” by Detlev JK Peukert
And the suprisingly excellent “The Nazi Conscience” by Claudia Koonz.

Step by step destruction of Mikeys precious sources. Pretty pictures of Nazi documents. And the sad truth about Herr Hitler and his merry buch of blondmike clones.

The sources that you list above are as discredited as the Iraq-Al Queda bullshit you posted on another link. Check out ihr.org and vho.org for a total rebuttal of the establishment crapola listed above by a retarded retired Army beanerman. You have yet to rebut one revisionist contention or even read one. Shirer’s work has enough errors of both fact and interpretation to fill a volume of equal size as Harry Elmer Barnes noted in Blasting The Historical Blackout and David L. Hoggan documented in The Forced War. See A.J.P. Taylor’s The Origins Of The Second World War and Germar Rudolf’s massive Dissecting The Holocaust. The Puke and Koons works are pure Party Line Commie bullshit that Alberto G’s illegitimate son typically posted above.

You can print that the sky is yellow all you want, it still doesn’t make it any less blue Nazi

Can you interpret your wordsalad above ?

Wow, a whole lot of back and forth to ignore the point of the article.
As an atheist any gain in power by the forces of god unnerves me, but at this point I’d take a progressive megachurch over Walmart.  Exley’s observation that the ‘left’ has no organizational clout even close to these churches’ influence is key. 

We have been told since Bush’s rise that the Conservative Christians have spoken.  If there is to be change in this country, who else to turn to than the Christian Progressives?
If you believe that there is an open minded populace willing hear and act upon rational argumentation, try reading Karl Marx in public.  Even here in San Francisco, you will be bombarded by confused and uninformed comments, I assure you.

Liberals, progressives, lovers of democracy and science, wishing religion away does not make it cease to exist.  Goofy and superstitious as god may seem to some of us, there is no comparable resource for progressive change in this country.

To put it another way: More American citizens go to church one day a week, than vote once per year.

I’m pretty sure there are quite a few posters here breaking the rules they agreed to when they registered.

WickyWoo, Jesus didn’t command anyone to kill. Luke 19:26-27 is not Jesus giving a command, it is a character in a parable he was telling. The parable was about his return on the day of wrath. Again, it is not a command for us today.

The character of Jesus doesn’t endorse any of those things you said and you would have to seriously twist His words to even come close.

Blondmike, this last summer I visited Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Schindler’s factory in Oswiecim, Poland and Krakow, Poland. http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/

There is no way to deny what happened without lying to yourself and to the world. The overwhelming piles of evidence totally cover up any attempt to disprove it, no matter how Gibson you are.

WickyWoo, Jesus didn’t command anyone to kill. Luke 19:26-27 is not Jesus giving a command, it is a character in a parable he was telling. The parable was about his return on the day of wrath. Again, it is not a command for us today.

Sorry, it’s Jesus giving the command to kill. All of his “love thy neighbor” and “turn the other cheek” only applys to thy JEWISH neighbor. People of other ethnic groups and religions were not considered “thy neighbor”, which is why you must sell your daughters into slavery to somoene not of your tribe. And if you don’t believe it, check out the mass, Jehovah-ordered genocides in the OT.

So why is it that sometimes it’s a parable, and other times it’s direct? Is there some (in the original text) color coding system?

Oh yeah, so that people go to hell because they’re confused

MARK

4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Don;t apply to us today? No, it’s simply that you decided to ignore it

MATTHEW- Old Testament laws are binding

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Those who refuse Jesus will suffer more than Sodom and Gommorah

MATTHEW
10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city

And don’t forget to murder your sassy children, Jesus endorsed

MARK
7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

WickyWoo,

Jesus is not making a commandment there, any cursory glance at the text will show that. The only way to say he is making an order there is to forget all about basic reading comprehension. This is a character in a parable that makes the proclamation, not Jesus. What “other times” does Jesus do this directly?

The “neighbor” Jesus showed in another parable was a Samaritan, not a Jew. The OT also speaks of caring for the alien, the foreigner, etc saying “for you were also an alien in Egypt.”

I obviously don’t have time to go through centuries of theology, but you’re basically pulling random things out of context and forcing your own opinion into it.

I never ignored Mark 4:11. You are now making accusations about what I am and what I believe.

The old laws do apply, but Jesus fulfilled the law for those that believe and are not condemned.

Obviously it’s pointless to argue with you considering you have your mind made up. But it is ridiculous that you are butchering context to make a point. Sure it’s fine to condemn violence unless you’re throwing Christians to the lions…

Jesus is not making a commandment there, any cursory glance at the text will show that. The only way to say he is making an order there is to forget all about basic reading comprehension. This is a character in a parable that makes the proclamation, not Jesus. What “other times” does Jesus do this directly?

See above.

obviously don’t have time to go through centuries of theology, but you’re basically pulling random things out of context and forcing your own opinion into it.

No, this is the typical theist response. Scream OUT OF CONTEXT!, and then run away feeling pity for the closed minded atheist that’s going to hell.

Sorry, you are required to believe blindly, or else you’re going to hell.
I’m not pulling anything randomly, and you have yet to address the whole “Jesus speaks in parables to confuse people so they go to hell” bit.

I know what you believe. You hate all non-Christians and those who your god created for the sole purpose of angering him. You are required to murder them.

I can see by your sig you’re already armed to do it, so go for it. Obey your god.

You have a serious failure to understand the context of the book of fables you’re reading, the attitudes of the tribes and the way things worked back then. That’s why Yaweh thinks nothing of having the Israelites go on a genocidal slaughter of half a dozen tribes, taking only the women to rape, but still says “thou shalt not murder”, and stopped only by those nasty iron chariots that god just couldn’t seem to beat

JUDGES
1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Wow, you know everything about me! Amazing! Yeah I totally hate everyone and I want to kill them!

I didn’t scream “out of context,” in fact I pointed out exactly how it is out of context. I didn’t run away, and I don’t feel pity. I simply know you’re an intelligent person who has heard everything I could ever say, so it’s pointless to keep down this path.

People pick on religion and say it’s the bane of the world. Excuse me for not believing that because that doesn’t explain the works of Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, imperialistic Japan, and every war and conquest since time began. It’s not a matter of religion, it’s the condition of human aspirations. It’s foolish to think we can cure all the worlds ills by getting rid of religion, and distracts from the real problems in the world.

You sound like the neocons who say this war is not just against extremists but against every Muslim in the world because even though the extremists are a small portion, they speak louder than the people they claim to represent. It’s shoving people into stereotypes (like you have done so flagrantly of me) and waging war on their associates.

Your message of reform and progression are given a backseat to venom spatting hate speech. You don’t change the world by calling them retarded (obviously you’re much more enlightened than anyone else - your ego betrays you).

You haven’t said anything I haven’t heard before by people who can earn respect through kind conversation and a friendly smile. I know you’ll just accuse me once again of running away, but do you really think I haven’t heard all of this before and answered it all before numerous times? Like I have already said, I’m done just because anything I say won’t change your mind.

Glock, you are wrong, for many decades they had a sign posted that claimed four million Jews were killed there, right before that an even larger number, now they are claiming 900,000 to 1.25. million. Actually there were a total of 74,000 registered prisoners there and the Germans registered everyone brought there because they were brought there for slave labor, of the 74,000 the Jews numbered 30,000. See Germar Rudolf’s masterly Dissecting The Holocaust and Arthur Butz’s The Hoax Of The Twentieth Century as well as many essays by Robert Faurisson and many full length books by Carlo Mattogno. All are available from either IHR.org or VHO.org websites. You need to be more critical in your thinking when given guided propaganda tours. Of course, anyone who believes in “god” would fall for anything. There has never been the slightest scintilla of evidence for such a belief in a supernatural being, you might read Atheism: The Case Against God by George H. Smith, an Objectivist-Libertarian. As an atheist I have to disassociate myself from the Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist rantings of WickyWoo. Of course, I agree totally with him about the incredible REAL holocaust of the Church during the Dark Ages when 30 million women were burned as witches, 30 million black cats were killed by the same Spanish Catholic morons because they were associated with witches and the Germans REAL holocaust wherein they killed tens of millions of EACH OTHER in the Thirty Years Protestant-Catholic Wars. They almost committed auto-genocide. Maybe not a bad thing. I’m sorry if half a million to maybe one million Jews in Europe died of all causes during WW2 but the “gas chambers” “six million” “mass extermination conspiracy” is turning out to be as phony as Frank’s “Diary” Frank herself died of typhus as did most of the Jews in the camps in the last year of the war. Glock, you can’t downplay the Hebrew Book of Genocide, the shitty old “holy” beeble for the Jeezez Christer morons. I’ve read enough of that intersting literary work to know it is one of the most pornographic, genocidal books ever written. My wife who is Jewish agrees and one good thing about most Jews is that they are atheists. I just dissent from WickyPooPooPants idea of confining all his political enemies to the insane asylum. He does not speak for all atheists.

I didn’t take any guided tours. I walked the grounds with my wife and just took in the scale. There was a room filled with hair sheared from the heads of the prisoners (gypsies, Christians, Jews, and other “undesireables") and the stench was overpowering. Two rooms full of shoes, and this was a small portion of the total they collected from one of the ten warehouses filled with items.

The evidence for this holocaust are overwhelming. There are few dissenters and they come from very select groups.

You tell me to be critical in my thinking while you are quite clearly ignoring piles of evidence that would prove you wrong in favor of a couple sources you happen to agree with. http://www.nizkor.org/

I have a question for those who complain about Luke 19:26-27 being taken out of context.  What do YOU think this passage means?  Sure it’s a parable (though I think verse 27 might not be part of the parable), but in the real world, who is the King, and who are the people that will be killed if they will not accept the King?  Isn’t the King Jesus, and those who do not accept him are to be killed?  I understand that this is not a command to kill unbelievers now, but this does tell us a great deal about Jesus’s true character that he will order unbelievers to be killed eventually.

Also, how do you explain the following in context?

Matthew 10:14-15 (Also Mark 6:11)

“And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave the house or town. Truly, I say to you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.”

Matthew 11:20-24
Then he began to upbraid the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. “Woe, to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida....And you Capernaum,...you shall be brought down to Hades...But I tell you it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgement for the land of Sodom than for you.”

Matthew 13:13-34
But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!...woe to you, blind guides...You blind fools!...You blind men!...You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Mark 4:10-12
And...the twelve asked him concerning parables. And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven.”

I’ve stolen this from somewhere else on the web, but it basically makes a good point:

“Jesus was generally tolerant towards self-confessed sinners who believed in him. We see this in Mark 2:15 where we are told that he had dinner with tax collectors and sinners at Levi’s house. But this feeling of tolerance and love is not universal. [...] Jesus was extremely intolerant of people, however good and well meaning, who did not believe in him. A fanatic is convinced he is right, anybody who does not follow or believe in him is an enemy of God, that is that. Jesus was like that.”

scenes,

Christians don’t deny there is a “day of judgment” or a time of wrath. It is because of this judgment that Jesus had to come as a propitiation. But there is a distinction between the present age and the one brought when Jesus returns to “judge the quick and the dead.”

Read up on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_judgment

Also, it is important to keep in mind the context in which Christians are supposed to forgive others:

Romans 12:20,
No, “if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.”

So basically it sounds like such good works are to be done in order to send your enemies to hell.  Any alternative interpretation?

I guess I’ll take the good works, whatever reason they’re done for.  Because it’s better that people do good works to you even if they hate you, and are hoping you go to hell.  Because hell doesn’t exist.

Re the day of Judgment, it appears that Jesus doesn’t want any but the select few to avoid hell:

“To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven.”

Now given a choice between Jesus on the one hand and Gandhi, who seems the better person?

In Romans 12, Paul is quoting Proverbs. The “burning coals” is a picture of shame, not hell. We’re not “hoping” anyone should go to hell, that is contrary to the work of “evangelism.”

Good luck with your good works. I hope you achieve your goals.

The shame interpretation is not the only possible one.  I’d argue that my interpretation is closer to the actual intention, given the other places in the Bible where it is clear that only a select pre-chosen few will go to heaven.

The work of “evangelism” is not to save souls, but to ensure that people will have no excuse when they’re sent to hell.  Hope doesn’t come into it.  God chooses who repents and who doesn’t ahead of time.

Evangelism and love aren’t to send people to hell but the opposite. Romans 10 makes it clear that evangelism to bring people to Jesus, not the other way around:

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Glock, all of the points you raise have been addressed by the authors I’ve repeatedly cited. What you saw proves nothing other than many people died. There are other explanations than the ones we’ve been spoon-fed for so long, this is why I give refs. I very much doubt there are ten warehouses and yes, you were given a guided tour and the party line. Truth is never determined by the number of adherents at a given time. 50 million Frenchmen can be wrong and often are. The “six million died” “gas chambers” “deliberate conspiracy to kill all Jews” the Frank “diary” as distinct from Frank, and many other tall tales including human lampshades and bars of soap have been totally discredited. If your such an open minded guy as you claim in contrast to Woo then maybe you’ll check out the refs I gave. By the way, that standard nikor source people like you give has been discredited by the ihr and vho websites, you might check them out instead of assuming everything you’ve been brainwashed with us is true. The “evidence” for the holocaust (the very name is a lie since Jews did not die by fire) is no more “overwhelming” than the bullshit arguments made for “god” or the rest of tje JEEZEZ Christer Cult fabrications. That “holy” beeble is a many times revised imitation of ancient Arabian tales.

Wow, you know everything about me! Amazing! Yeah I totally hate everyone and I want to kill them!

You do if you’re a good Christian

Your message of reform and progression are given a backseat to venom spatting hate speech. You don’t change the world by calling them retarded (obviously you’re much more enlightened than anyone else - your ego betrays you).

Religion by its very nature cannot be progressive. You are given orders by the all-powerful creator of the universe, perfect in every way, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff. Do you dare to question his ways? I call people mentally ill who believe in invisible fairy tale men. If you believed in Froo-Froo the Purple Hippo, people would agree with me you shouldbe put away, but because you ascribe to the societally acceptible mass delusion, it’s not. And there is and equal amount of evidence for the existance of Jesus, Jehovah and Froo-Froo

You sound like the neocons who say this war is not just against extremists but against every Muslim in the world because even though the extremists are a small portion, they speak louder than the people they claim to represent. It’s shoving people into stereotypes (like you have done so flagrantly of me) and waging war on their associates

It’s not a sterotype, just your hypocrisy.

WickyWoo. Of course, I agree totally with him about the incredible REAL holocaust of the Church during the Dark Ages when 30 million women were burned as witches, 30 million black cats were killed by the same Spanish Catholic morons be

Don’t “help” me

In Romans 12, Paul is quoting Proverbs. The “burning coals” is a picture of shame, not hell. We’re not “hoping” anyone should go to hell, that is contrary to the work of “evangelism.”

In this you are correct.You draw them in with kindness and convert them

But let’s continue it shall we?

13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 
13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Resistance is futile! Believe or they’re damned to hell. And this is from the sadistic being that created things, knowing they would disbelieve for the sole purpose of torturing them

13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Do what you’re told without question, and nothing bad will happen to you

Again, I didn’t have a guided tour. I’m glad you were along side me while I was there because you obviously know what I was doing much more than I do.

Thank you for the references. However, these sources have been discredited quite a bit. If you have 50 million witnesses and 95% of them claim one thing how can the 5% be more right than the 95%? How many eye-witnesses to these things claim they didn’t happen? The deniers weren’t there when it happened. Yet we have Nazi soldiers and officers who were in the camps who can testify to the truth.

Paul, the writer of Romans, makes it clear that those who are saved are selected in advance by God.  However, if the people who are chosen to go to hell haven’t been warned by evangelists, it might seem unjust.  So evangelists are there to provide an excuse to God.  Verse, 14, seen in this context, does not show a desire to save souls, but to condemn them.

But what about verse 12 & 13 of the same chapter?

For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Those verses don’t contradict what I’m saying.  God chooses who will call on his name and be saved ahead of time.  Nothing an evangelist can do can change that.  The evangelist says his piece.  God hardens the hearts of some, and opens the hearts of others.  Since those who were chosen to be sent to hell have now been warned, they have no excuse.

From Romans:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?”
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ “
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

Well, there weren’t “50 million witnesses” anymore than “six million victims” and no my sources have never been discredited but only denounced by people who have never read them. That is why it is against the law in many countries to dispute this orthodoxy, if they were just flatearthers or creationists they could be laughed off. The only Nazis who testified to this were people with a gun to their head since it was not permitted at Nuremberg or subsequent Stalinist Show “trials” to dispute the main thesis, you could only argue that you were following orders. Ok, glad you will check out the refs. And there are no “deniers” but only revisioinists and yes some of them were there too. And many of the “witnesses” have been proven to be liars.
Ok, I’ll forego comment on this lunatic Beeble business.

Well, there weren’t “50 million witnesses” anymore than “six million victims” and no my sources have never been discredited but only denounced by people who have never read them

Sworn testimony, mountains of photographs, documents and everything else. You’re done

I think that if we got a time machine and put you in it, you’d just put on the uniform, herd people into gas chambers, and STILL deny it

The “sworn testimony” has been totally discredited in the books that I have referenced. The “witnesses” were lying on a massive scale and contradicted each other. See The Real Eichmann Trial by Paul Rassinier just for starters but don’t stop there. Then check about 600 pages of essays by Robert Faurisson that can be downloaded from the ihr.org website, then Germar Rudolf’s Dissecting The Holocaust, Walter N. Sanning’s The Dissolution of East European Jewry, Arthur R. Butz’s The Hoax of the 20th Century and many more books that can be downloaded on the vho.org website as well. Obviously I am NOT “done” moron, I’m right here giving arguments and specific refs unlike you.  See I have a real advantage here, I KNOW both sides of the argument here, you don’t because you’re a lazy asshole who has only read what he was predisposed to agree with here. The Demjanjuk “Trial” was very interesting in this regard because hundreds of liars perjured themselves in misidentifying him as “Ivan The Terrible” even assuming there WAS such a person. Wicky, you lose again. Sorry, asshole.

The “sworn testimony” has been totally discredited in the books that I have referenced. The “witnesses” were lying on a massive scale and contradicted each other

So if they’re to be discredited, you’ll be able to provide some fact checking by neutral collegues and historians ina formal scientific peer-review process

All you’ve provided is a bunch of books by Nazis like you, who use the same sound scientific principals as the Creationists, cherry picking things that support your case while tossing out any evidence to the contrary.

Let’s go to court. You bring your guys, I bring mine. At stake, 1 year mandatory in a mental institution. Have you got the balls to do it?

I have given sources. Unlike you I have read both sides, you call anyone who disagrees with you a “Nazi.” As for your absurd proposition why would anyone take you up on it ? We don’t decide historical matters in a court of law except in totalitarian Europe. This is argued out in the free market of ideas. Secondly, why would even a narcissistic piece of shit like you expect anyone to consider themselves insane even if they were wrong ???????  I wouldn’t advocate putting you away because you are wrong here or for any other reason. Furthermore the peer review process doesn’t work in the social sciences as it does in the physical sciences because the epistemological premises are different. History is not some lab where everything can be neatly quantified. So for instance if 99% of historians or philosophers or economists have a certain ideology and a dissident is presenting an alternative paradigm by your logic no progess would ever happen because the new theory would be ruled per se insane by your conformist logic. Interestingly enough they do not outlaw or imprison creationists even in Europe. So if revisionism were merely a flat earth theory they would be laughing off or trying to, not imprisoning dissenters in prison or Soviet style in mental gulags as you advocate. Here I’m going to be VERY unPC, I think you are a stinky smelly old sanhedrin bum, probably a shrink from the pre-Szasz days who was used to imprisoning inmates under the name of “mental illness.” IF I thought and here I stress IF all of your tribe was like YOU, I wouldn’t care if six TRILLION perished. But fortunately that’s not the case so I sentence you to one year of daily changing of your colostomy bag without the big nurse’s assistance.

What are you trying to prove with Demjanjuk, Mike? He was acquitted of being “Ivan” because there was doubt around 50 year old memories, but there was also doubt in the judges mind that he was entirely innocent. They acquitted him because of the doubt, not because it was proved he wasn’t “Ivan.” He was later shown in court to have worked in three death camps and was a member of the SS unit that gathered up over 2-million Jews.

Furthermore the peer review process doesn’t work in the social sciences as it does in the physical sciences because the epistemological premises are different. History is not some lab where everything can be neatly quantified. So for instance if 99% of historians or philosophers or economists have a certain ideology and a dissident is presenting an alternative paradigm by your logic no progess would ever happen because the new theory would be ruled per se insane by your conformist logic

All science is peer-reviewed, and peer-reviewable. be it historical research or paleontology. The political leanings of the people can be researched, prior to their statements, the methodologies of their research.

In your case, it’d find out that your “historians” are lifelong jew-hating nazi types, well before they wrote your books.

If you’re so sure, then take the court challenge. 1 year on thorazine with massive therapy and maybe the non-existant mental illness will be existant!

There was no doubt in the Judges minds that Demjanjuk was falsely accused of being Ivan The Terrible and what this eloquently proves is that these hundreds of “witnesses” were lying perjurers, the sort of professional “witness” used at the earlier Nuremberg, Malmedy, Frankfurt and Eichmann Stalinist Show “Trials.” If you would get off your lazy, lunatic beeble quoting ass you would also find out that any “confessions’” obtained were by torture and/or threat of permanent imprisonment if they didn’t “confess.” The physical sciences are radically different from the social sciences, see Hayek’s Reason and Counter-Revolution. What you are attempting to do here is the ad hominem fallacy of trying to discredit the message by libelling the messenger. Anyone who ventures into dissent here is per se labeled a “Nazi.” I don’t take any mind destroying psych drugs, see Toxic Psychiatry by Peter Breggin, MD. These drugs should be outlawed as should psychiatry itself, one area where I dissent from Szasz’s general libertarianism because the treatments are torture, the “therapy” are lies and the “professionals” are criminals. Historical conflicts are argued out in the history books and not determined by fiat of law. The Nuremberg et al farce “trials” prohibited any defense challenge to the fundamental thesis so the only tack for defendants was to claim they were following “orders.” By the way, no SS unit ever gathered up three million Jews, they were never anywhere that many Jews in total Nazi custody, much less deaths. They only showed that he was a very lowly guard for a while. Glock, you are as fucked up and stupid on the holohoax as you are on the unholy beeble so beloved by the JEEZEZ Chisterculters. Read something different and actually learn something for a change.

The fact that the Nazis kept records of their work through the Einsatzgruppen and the documents like the Jäger Report contradict everything the deniers claim. You can read these papers yourself.

Then there’s Die Endlösung der Judenfrage, that must have just been a radio play like War of the Worlds… During Operation Reinhard, Berlin listed 1,274,166 arrivals at the death camps just through the end of 1942. You can also read this document.

The holocaust is the most documented event of the 21st century. Trying to disprove the JFK assassination would be easier.

Gordon McFee writes, “Revisionists depart from the conclusion that the Holocaust did not occur and work backwards through the facts to adapt them to that preordained conclusion. Put another way, they reverse the proper methodology”

And you say Jews were killed, just in the hundreds of thousands instead of millions. And this is somehow OK? A million is wrong but hundreds of thousands are just what the doctor ordered.

Gordon McFee writes, “Revisionists depart from the conclusion that the Holocaust did not occur and work backwards through the facts to adapt them to that preordained conclusion. Put another way, they reverse the proper methodology”

Which is exactly how creationists work.

Glock, I’ve read those documents and they do not “prove” any “holocaust” the very name meaning death by fire is a lie. At this point you need to read something other than the same shit you have already read. I’m saying there was never a holocaust, never a systematic attempt or conspiracy to murder the Jews of Europe, that the gas chambers for humans never existed, only ones for de-licing, that nowhere six million Jews died, doubtful if it was more than a million, the Frank “diary” is a hoax, she died of typhus like most Jews who actually died did towards the end of the war. The “holohoax” not only is not documented, even Raul Hilberg, the leading holocaust so-called historian has admitted that 80% of what is claimed is not in any way documented. But the point is why is a scared little man like you so afraid to study the revisionists ???????? You are too frightened to do so because you are a religious lunatic who has an enormous degree of credulity. Even WickyWoo thinks you are a lunatic.  Now why would you two mental midgets think that quoting some nobody is going to impress me ? I am a lifelong student of philosophy, particularly epistemology and I know ad hominem arguments when I see them. Several people whom I’ve alerted to your joint stupidity have commented on the low level of intelligence both Glock and WickyWoo have displayed, no coherent arguments, recitation of arguable assumptions, appeals to questionable “authorities” and so on. You two can go 69 each other. I’ve given arguments briefly and more importantly I’ve given refs, you can look them up or shove it up your stinky assholes, frankly the choice is yours.

I’m quite familiar with ad honinem attacks, and you seem to be quite the expert at using them. Of course I’ve only provided verifiable facts while you go on and on about my personal character and intelligence. Congratulations, you just won a first grade debate.

How odd.

The single person here who could most benefit from modern psychiatry does not believe in mental illness! How funny, but also how very sad. . .

Glock, I’ve read those documents and they do not “prove” any “holocaust” the very name meaning death by fire is a lie. At this point you need to read something other than the same shit you have already read. I’m saying there was never a holocaust, never a systematic attempt or conspiracy to murder the Jews of Europe, that the gas chambers for humans never existed, only ones for de-licing, that nowhere six million Jews died, doubtful if it was more than a million

“Only a million”, and if you’re going to pick nits that they didn’t specficially die by fire, then you’re an even bigger moron than I inititially thought

Even WickyWoo thinks you are a lunatic.

And here we have an excellent demonstration of how the Nazi and creationist operate. He takes the fact that Glock is delusional and mentally ill believing ina supreme being, and applies it as a global term to all other facts of the world and life. Cherry picking to his advantage

So Nazi, are you coming to court or not? I’ll even toss in a free swastika tattoo for you if I lose

Glock, you have provided NO facts at all, you have provided sources which have been debunked precisely because they are not conclusive. I have indeed included my very low opinion of you but that was IN ADDITION TO COUNTERING YOUR NONARGUMENTS AND IN ADDITION TO GIVING REFS WHICH REFUTE YOUR SOURCES. THAT IS NOT AD HOMINEM.  AD HOMINEM IS A PERSONAL ATTACK IN PLACE OF ANY ARGUMENTS OR REFS AS “WICKYJOO” HAS DONE.
Wolf, are YOU an example of a person helped by modern psychiatry ?
Thanks, I’ll pass.
WW, holocaust means death by fire, if you can’t even get the basic definitions correctly I don’t see any use in continuing this discusssion.  WHY would I come to court ? That would be the last place I’d look to for historical truth. Mel Mermelstein’s initial suit against IHR was total bullshit and he lost on appeal but the original trial Judge in LA told IHR that they had better settle privately with him because LA juries would be influenced by emotionalism rather than reason. And since I don’t accept that this argument has anything to do with “mental illness” why I even entertain your conditions ? Are you insane or just a standard male Jewish narcissist ?  Frankly as my Jewish wife puts it, “kike” would be much to MILD a term to apply to Soviet psychiatric vermin like you, your the type of guy who makes one wish there HAD been a mass extermination but alas there was NOT.

So we’ll do a judge and no jury is you’re that worried about emotionalism.

I’m real sure your wife is Jewish, just like people have “lots of black friends”.

I’m offering you a fair legal arena for you to prove your claims. If you are unwilling to accept it, then you need to withdraw your claims, or admit you have no actual peer-reviewed evidence to back up and you’re just ufll of it.

And if you really want to ge that technical, they burned a huge percentage of the bodies, enjoy your nitpick, or just call it what it was: Genocide

I’m not nitpicking and while in the last year they had to cremate many bodies because of the typhus epidemic it was not genocide.  Hey, asshole, I never made a court claim to withdraw. Your premise
that some asshole political appointee which is what a Judge is is competent to rule on a complex historical matter is bunk. There is plenty of evidence to doubt the “holocaust” ever existed and as you forgot, it is the proponents of a positive assertion that are under an obligation to prove it, you can’t prove a negative. If you assert that god exists or the holocaust happened you have to prove it, I don’t have to disprove, so what the holocaust revisionists have done is painstakingly dissect the arguments for it and they have debunked them. Indeed my wife is Jewish of a Red Diaper Baby background and we have been married 18 years. All the holocaust revisionists are competent peers to review the claims of all the others and that has been done. In any event historical truth is not settled by majority opinion. ALL the revisionists are required to do is examine the evidence and rebut the standard arguments if they can. And they can. Not rocket science. So to conclude I am going to keep preaching and pushing holocaust revisionism on all venues I deem worthwhile and you will just have to sit in your smelly shit and lump it.

The claims of genocide have been proven with mounds of evidence. Loads of evidence. More evidence than anything has ever had. There’s more evidence for the Jewish holocaust than there is for the American Revolutionary War. There’s more evidence for the holocaust than there is of your wife existing even.

They haven’t been proven at all and that is why I referred you to sites to help you deal with this. If you want to call ihr in Costa Mesa and have a debate with Mark Weber on this I can give you the number. There is much less than meets the eye to the “holocaust’ claims and even an ignorant Beeble Belt banger like you should realize that your ASSertions prove nothing. No one ever denied the JFK Assassination or the US Revolutionary OR denied there were concentration camps and that the Nazis pursued anti-Jewish policies. That is light years from the “holocaust” claims. Scared little JEEZEZ mon, goto the ihr.org and vho.org websites and educate your profoundly ignorant self. The only “loads” you have given is the loads of arbitrary assertions from your stupid mouth. They bear a strong resemblance to the stuff that comes out of your frankly unappetitizing asshole.

mike,

“THAT IS NOT AD HOMINEM.  AD HOMINEM IS A PERSONAL ATTACK IN PLACE OF ANY ARGUMENTS OR REFS AS “WICKYJOO” HAS DONE.”

Hmm, what was your last post? No facts, just personal attacks. This is seriously the most juvenile discussion I’ve had since I talked with a 2 year old about Labyrinth.

I proved facts and sources as well. German documents and policies that have very long, legal paper trails.

And, you’re right, nobody denied the JFK assassination, and nobody denied the American Revolutionary war because there were witnesses, documents, and a shown result. There is archeological evidence, documented evidence, videos, letters, et al. Nobody questioned it because you can’t deny it without looking like a total fool. But the holocaust has even more evidence, photographs, documents, witnesses, locations, et al that have proven the holocaust.

I’m not nitpicking and while in the last year they had to cremate many bodies because of the typhus epidemic it was not genocide.  Hey, asshole, I never made a court claim to withdraw.

You made the claim that the holocaust was greatly exagerated and didn’t happen. In Canada you could be put on trial for that and put in jail for spreading hate speech.

And you just proved you listen to Michael Savage, the biggest bigot on the airwaves

Hey, assholes, I have already responded to your nonarguments, why should I repeat myself ? Check out the refs I gave. WickyJoo, we’re not in Canada and as I wrote earlier the very fact that they are forced to imprison people for heretical thoughts shows the utter intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the “holocaust” exterminationists.  Glock, them big pitchers don’t prove anything. As Leonard Peikoff, a Jew and atheist Objectivist, once wrote “ A picture is not an argument” he was focussing on the anti-abortion nuts and the one-sided media campaign against the LAPD for properly giving Rodney King the beating he deserved. All of the documents & testimonies & pitchers not only contradict each other repeatedly but many are worthless and no the German govt has done nothing to even remotely prove the “holocaust” which is why they have to imprison dissenters, SOMETHING THAT DOESN’T TO PEOPLE IN ANY OTHER ISSUE. Communist atrocities, American atrocities, Third World atrocities, Israeli atrocities. Are you really as dense as you seem ? An ad hominem argument is NOT calling you a worthless shitbag, an ad hominem argument IS calling a worthless IN LIEU of argument and IN LIEU of references. I’ve have given both in spades. And you ARE a worthless shitbag. A psychotic one too as diagnosed by WickyPoo after reading your Beeble ravings. I saw a great bumper sticker “Jesus Was A Palestinian Like Yasser Arafat.” Hope that will comfort you at Easter where you goofs celebrate the resurrection.
Oh, Wicky, are you telling me that Michael Weiner Savage is a holocaust revisionist too ? Funny, I read that he claimed Hitler killed 50 million Jews. He seems more YOUR type if you catch my drift.............wicky, WATCH YOUR TRUSS !

For atheists, you people sure do seem to have psychic powers. The only think you know about me is I was in Poland last year with my wife. That is it. Congratulations on jumping to conclusions.

I haven’t claimed to know you. I haven’t painted a picture of you with my mental finger paint so I can attack this strawman instead of issues.

Mike, I believe you are telling the truth. I think you really do have a Jewish wife. You don’t have to be a racist to be a holocaust denier. All it takes is refusing to look at all the evidence. I’ve looked at the denier’s evidence, I’ve done it before and I’ve looked at your references. However, these references reference other people and those original references refute the denier’s claims. They pick bits out without even completing the entire thought of the people they’re quoting. They quote people saying 5.1 million Jews were killed trying to disprove the 6 million number and then claim it wasn’t even the 5.1 million without offering anything to prove this except “the numbers have changed before.”

And I too have provided facts, one specifically being Einsatzgruppen, a group directed by Himmler to kill Jews in the occupied west. Their records show they killed over a million people. Group A reported they killed all of the Jews in Lithuania. They took the Jews out of cities and dug mass graves and shot them in the open graves. There are piles of documents to prove all of this. Rudolf Lange, one of the Einsatzgruppen commanders, said his orders were “a radical solution of the Jewish problem through the execution of all Jews.”

Hitler said “It is good when terror precedes us that we are exterminating the Jews. We are writing history anew, from the racial standpoint.”

And this is the tip of the iceberg.

Hey, assholes, I have already responded to your nonarguments, why should I repeat myself ? Check out the refs I gave. WickyJoo, we’re not in Canada and as I wrote earlier the very fact that they are forced to imprison people for heretical thoughts shows the utter intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the “holocaust” exterminationists.

And you’re lucky, because I’d have you in prison right now, or more likely a mental instutition.

All of the documents & testimonies & pitchers not only contradict each other repeatedly but many are worthless and no the German govt has done nothing to even remotely prove the “holocaust” which is why they have to imprison dissenters

It’s called spreading hate speech and endangering the lives of others.
It’s something we should be doing here as well, and any civilized country would do. If you can’t prove it, it’s time for prison.

You still need to prove your side beyond some nazi fring wackos. We have literal warehouses of evidence, not counting the mass graves and mass cyanide signatures at the execution sites. You need to prove it, or you need to shut it

Come to court, you’ll enjoy the thorazine I’m sure. If all you’re going to do is sit back and namecall, then we know you’ve got nothing.

Oh, Wicky, are you telling me that Michael Weiner Savage is a holocaust revisionist too ?

No, but he’s a vicious bigot and hatemonger. Half of his audience are KKK type Christians brainwashed into the whole Israel lobby, do you realy think he’d do anything to piss them off? And where is this “killed 50 million jews” quote? I can’t seem to find it anywhere, and much more likely you’re just bullshitting it.. “Red Diaper Baby” is his catchphrase, so drop the act.

Glock, the Einsatzgruppen were never part of the “holocaust” as even the leading “holocaust” historians like Arno Mayer and Raul Hilberg have come around to admitting. That Hitler quote is a fraud like his alleged dancing the jig at the fall of France, a CBC concocted hoax. But again why not check out the other side here ? Do you really think that your reiteration of your unproven, arguable assertions constitutes proof of anything ? Or even a respectable argument ? The fairy tale about the Einsatzgruppen killing all the Jews of Lithuania is a hoax on a par with Hitler “trying to conquer the world.” No order from Hitler or anyone else has ever been found instructing anyone to exterminate the Jews and of course being Germans they would not have done so without an explicit order or orders. The holes in the holohoax story would shame a package of swiss cheese.  By the way, you are a personal liar. First, it’s holocaust revisionists, the very fact that you use the Lipstadt
concocted term “denier” shows you have never read ANY of the revisionists and to further claim that you have looked at ALL their work is absurd, even I haven’t done that. We are talking about thousands of pages of book downloads just from vho site alone. By the way, the main revisionist argument is not that Hilberg, the leading holohoax “historian” claimed 5.1 mil in his 61 book, the three main propositions constituting revisionism here I listed above, look it up. Your “arguments” here are as specious and poorly reasoned as your ones for “god.” Or WoozyJoo’s ones for psychiatry. By the way, Glock, learn the difference between references and facts, you only provided a few references and I hate to tell you but these refs have been demolished by the revisionists. I provided many refs precisely because in a forum like this one can only make short arguments and they are assertions, but so people can check the foundation for my assertions I provide refs. Check them out.  The cyanide signatures Woozy mentions have been totally discredited in Dissecting The Holocaust by Germar Rudolf. The mass graves were the result of ALLIED bombing which hastened the severe food shortages and the raging typhus epidemics. Finally the warehouses of “evidence” have never proved anything, it’s the quality of the evidence and not the quantity in itself that counts. As Ayn Rand put it, a long line of zeroes is just a zero in the end. And boy did I get Woozy in the end !
WWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEE ! That was some fearsome public bowel movement that you laid on us ! WoozyPooPooPanties, have I discomfited you ? In a free society people don’t go to prison for not proving an argument, otherwise most of your Jewish tribe would be imprisoned for the unproven holohoax assertions. Nor do people go to jail for hate, it’s OKAY to hate people like you, my wife has given me the full scoop on most Jewish males, mostly they they sound like Weine