Cringing is often a sign of unfinished political business,” according to feminist author Jennifer Baumgardner. She should know. Since 2002, Baumgardner has been spearheading the confessional “I had an abortion” campaign—most recently captured in the documentary film Speak Out: I Had an Abortion (www.speakoutfilms.com)—and in her new book, Look Both Ways: Bisexual Politics, she’s tackling a topic that makes both straights… return to article
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Reader Comments (79)Page 1 of 1 pages“she’s tackling a topic that makes both straights and gays wince: “
Not me, i think it is hot! Me and two bi ladies enjoying each others company. . .
Buffy was a great show. She was portrayed as a real hero, but with real flaws.
Posted by wolf on Mar 16, 2007 at 6:49 PM Before the right wing think tank knuckle heads contaminate this post, I would like to make some important comments about his topic.
People tend to confuse sexuality with the body itself. Even the terms homosexuality and bisexuality imply reference to a binary sex dichotomy. You either have sex with a member of the opposite sex, same sex, or both.
Sex is an act that offers a plenitude of sexual experiences, irrespective of who you are having sex wtih.
The politicization of sexuality is largely in response to the heterosexual norm which places the gendered body at the center of the sexual experience, which not only places limitations on who you can have sex with but when and for what purpose you have sex.
The argument becomes less about sexuality and more about the body and the ideological beliefs that govern the body.
Posted by Epistrophy on Mar 17, 2007 at 4:37 PM “The politicization of sexuality is largely in response to the heterosexual norm which places the gendered body at the center of the sexual experience, which not only places limitations on who you can have sex with but when and for what purpose you have sex.”
This is “postmodern” philosophy at its most inane. The reason a “heterosexual norm”, as you put it, developed is because it is how our species reproduces. If Cro-Magnon man had not developed a “heterosexual norm” we would have died out 35,000 years ago.
But then I’m just another right wing think tank knuckle head doing his best to contaminate this post.
Posted by chopper on Mar 17, 2007 at 6:00 PM Heterosexuality became the norm because the population was under constant threat of extinction. Today the threat is overpopulation, hence the proactive normative alternatives to heterosexuality. Of course, you rightwing think tank knuckleheads would rather react to the problem (than proactively prevent it) with wars, revolutions, famines, epidemics and ecological disasters. After all, it’s the American way.
Posted by Major Major on Mar 18, 2007 at 2:54 AM “Heterosexuality became the norm because the population was under constant threat of extinction. Today the threat is overpopulation, hence the proactive normative alternatives to heterosexuality. Of course, you rightwing think tank knuckleheads would rather react to the problem (than proactively prevent it) with wars, revolutions, famines, epidemics and ecological disasters. After all, it’s the American way.”
Don’t be too sure about overpopulation being the problem. Almost all advanced societies have fertility rates well below replacement levels, with some, such as Japan and parts of Western Europe being in virtual death spirals. European social security programs will be in deep trouble in the coming decades, as they will have aging populations with a declining work force supporting them.
Since socialists of various stripes carried out the greatest mass murders in the last century I’m not quite sure why you see wars and revolutions as being a rightwing problem.
Posted by chopper on Mar 18, 2007 at 8:20 PM [chopper]
Since socialists of various stripes carried out the greatest mass murders in the last century I’m not quite sure why you see wars and revolutions as being a rightwing problem.
[/chopper]Hardly. That the incorporation of the term “Socialist” in the Nazi name was entirely (and so typically) cynical from the outset is an obvious fact.
Similarly, the socialist veneer of the Soviet empire was deliberately and quickly removed by Stalin. That the Soviet Union was (like the Nazi regime) socialist in name only was something quickly realized by the extremely perceptive George Orwell (by his own admission, he was a [genuine] socialist), whereas various European left wing elements remained long in denial of the nature of the beast.
In short, the Nazi and Soviet regimes were entirely Fascist - and therefore properly denoted as right wing - in nature.
These two pathological, extraordinarily destructive, dictatorships naturally rather resemble the right wing pestilence wrought upon the world by various American administrations, most recently the Bush Administrations. The difference (unless one includes the BushCheney et al. war on the environment) is, to this point, merely in scale.
Posted by willfarnaby on Mar 19, 2007 at 4:19 AM It could reasonably be claimed that “socialists” carried out the most mass murders only if you ignore the crimes of the US and its allies in the third world as well as those of Hitler and the Japanese imperialists during WWII. Fascism and Capitalism allied after WWII in the third world and southern Europe in pursuit of capitalist profit. Capitalism is an inherently expansionist system while socialism is not. This is due to what Marx discerned as the Laws of Motion of Capital which force capitalism to expand commodity production and its social relations the world over in order to concentrate the world economy in a few hands in pursuit of accumulation without end for its own sake. This has resulted in the far flung US military empire of dozens of bases world wide.
Socialist regimes have engaged in military aggression at various times but often it was to accomplish limited political goals some of which were entirely understandable. The Vietnamese attack on Pol Pot was a good idea and saved people while the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was greatly misunderstood at the time and turned out to be an effort to fight Islamic extremism much like the US/UK effort today. The PDPA coup in the late 1970s came as much of a surprise to the Soviets as everyone else. Still the Russians felt beholden to not so much a communist as a secular modernizing regime which it had helped for decades. The Afghans came to the US first for aid back in the 1950s and 1960s and were rebuffed twice before they eventually turned to the USSR.
US warmongering resulted in millions of deaths over the years and continues to do so even today. It does so as the world’s sole superpower.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 19, 2007 at 6:25 AM “Hardly. That the incorporation of the term “Socialist” in the Nazi name was entirely (and so typically) cynical from the outset is an obvious fact.
Similarly, the socialist veneer of the Soviet empire was deliberately and quickly removed by Stalin. That the Soviet Union was (like the Nazi regime) socialist in name only was something quickly realized by the extremely perceptive George Orwell (by his own admission, he was a [genuine] socialist), whereas various European left wing elements remained long in denial of the nature of the beast. “
This is merely an old leftist rhetorical trick. Merely re-label any regime that commits mass murder as “rightwing facist”
The fact is that Stalin always kept the Soviet state in total control of the economy, just as socialist doctrine calls for. The Nazis didn’t formally end private ownership but they extensively controlled the economy. They had the New Deal on steriods.
Posted by chopper on Mar 19, 2007 at 4:07 PM “Capitalism is an inherently expansionist system while socialism is not. This is due to what Marx discerned as the Laws of Motion of Capital which force capitalism to expand commodity production and its social relations the world over in order to concentrate the world economy in a few hands in pursuit of accumulation without end for its own sake. This has resulted in the far flung US military empire of dozens of bases world wide.”
This is demonstrably false, just as most of the rest of Marxist theory. To take a major example, Microsoft doesn’t depend on our military or military basis to sell its products. Its success is due to operating in a free market economy.
Posted by chopper on Mar 19, 2007 at 4:12 PM Chopper,
You forget that the “free markets” that the Microsoft software monopoly operates in were opened by regimes supported by the US military who violently and undemocratically enforce US economic policy preferences. Also, total state control of the economy is only one approach that socialism has taken and not the one supported by most socialists. There is no reason that socialism has to have dictatorial political consequences. This is rightist dogma. Hitler’s regime cannot be considered an extreme form of the US New Deal because it was both undemocratic and was mostly based on total militarization whereby the New Deal stressed infrastructural projects and things that would bring a general social benefit like public works.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 19, 2007 at 5:20 PM “You forget that the “free markets” that the Microsoft software monopoly operates in were opened by regimes supported by the US military who violently and undemocratically enforce US economic policy preferences. Also, total state control of the economy is only one approach that socialism has taken and not the one supported by most socialists. There is no reason that socialism has to have dictatorial political consequences. This is rightist dogma. Hitler’s regime cannot be considered an extreme form of the US New Deal because it was both undemocratic and was mostly based on total militarization whereby the New Deal stressed infrastructural projects and things that would bring a general social benefit like public works.”
Cabbie, are you seriously arguing that people in other countries wouldn’t use Microsoft if we hadn’t invaded them first? Even for you this seems to be a stretch. As for it being “rightst dogma” that socialism results in total state control of the economy, this is what pretty much always happens in practice, no matter what socialists of various stripes say they believe.
You should read up on the history of the Third Reich. In spite of Goering’s “guns before butter” statement in actual practice the Nazis did the exact opposite. The German economy wasn’t really put on a wartime footing until 1944, when they had already clearly lost the war. To use an example, a piano company (Steinway, if I remember correctly) continued production of grand pianos all the way into 1945. And in case you’ve forgotten Hitler was elected democratically. He sort of started what has become the typical 3rd world method of democracy, 1man 1 vote 1 time.
Posted by chopper on Mar 19, 2007 at 6:27 PM Chopper, very good points. Burton Klein wrote a book in the 50s which showed that Nazi Germany’s recovery was classical Keynesianism, not military spending and as I told that stupid ass Chicago the Nazis never even had central planning until very long into the war. Hitler was appointed because his party got the most votes among several and all observers after 33 recognized that he’d win any election by a huge majority. Hitler was a progressive, statist economics, gun control, anti-smoking campaign, welfare state, single payer, etc. Chicago is so paralyzed by the Popular Front propaganda that he says mean things about his fellow socialist, Adolf Hitler. Socialism always results in total state control and the total immiseration of the population. It has failed everywhere but still has dummies like Chicago rooting for it.
Major, heterosexuality is the norm because it IS normal and natural.
Homosexuality isn’t. It has nothing to do with the population threat, which is an recurring left fascist bugaboo. Now I didn’t say Jigaboo, I said bugaboo, Major Master Bates.
Posted by blondemike on Mar 20, 2007 at 12:17 AM The idea that Nazi Germany’s economy wasn’t on a war time footing until a year before Germany was forced to surrender doesn’t even make common sense. What kind of footing were they on all during the War? Krupp was the states biggest contractor. By 1936, Hitler had militarized the Ruhr, had over 10 million men under arms and had the war machine going full steam. Over half a billion in US direct foreign investment was in Nazi Germany by the early 1930s. This represented just under 10% of the global total of US FDI. German militarism was profitable to US corporations who made more money in Germany thatn in the depressed US economy. One reason was the German remilitarization. You guys rely on fascist sources for your information. To bad. Your misinformed.
You also don’t know much about socialism. Even in many of the COMECON countries before 1989 there was widespread private ownership especially in urban retail and small scale agriculture. Most socialists don’t even see a large role for the state any longer prefering voluntary cooperative production models. You’re fixed on Stalinism. This is an extinct phenomenon.
As far as Microsoft is concerned they are being sued for restaint of trade. I was talking about the forcing open of third world economies using US military might in the recent past by supporting dictatorships that enforce pro-US policies with regard to corporate advantage.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 20, 2007 at 12:56 AM Y’all are off topic. Where are the hot lesbians when you need them? :)
Posted by wolf on Mar 20, 2007 at 6:39 PM Chicago, see Burton Klein’s 1959 Germany’s Economic Preparations For War to answer your pretended question. They were on a KEYNESIAN footing, Keynes wrote in the German edition of the
General Theory that Germany was much more simpatico territory for his interventionist economics than the more libertarian English speaking countries. Sorry if this demolishes your “Hitler was trying to conquer the world” bullshit when all was trying was to get the Polish Fascist Anti-Semitic, Genocidal Junta to reasonably negotiate on the German territory STOLEN at Versailles. Even the Soviets recognized the justice of Hitler’s position. US corporations WERE VERY SMALL POTATOES IN THE OVERALL NUMBERS OF THE GERMAN ECONOMY AND HENRY TURNER DEBUNKED THE MYTH OF BIG BUSINESS & US CAPITALIST SUPPORT FOR HITLER, A BIG LIE SPREAD BY STALINOPHILE SHITASSES TO COVER UP STALIN’S MURDER OF THIRTY MILLION RUSSIANS BY THE TIME HITLER FIRST CAME TO POWER.
Socialism has failed every single place it has ever been tried and that’s all anyone needs to know.
Restraint of trade charge is nonsense and all the antitrust laws should be repealed, see America’s Persecuted Minority: Big Business by Ayn Rand, an essay.
Shitcago, you rely on discredited Stalinist sources to recycle the same old, same old over again. Better remove the buttplug before you burst.
Wolf, Doctor Dicklicking has offered to remove the coke bottle from your pecker. But you will have to forfeit the nickel refund.
Posted by blondemike on Mar 20, 2007 at 8:11 PM “Y’all are off topic. Where are the hot lesbians when you need them? :)”
True. Now the real trick is to not get caught by the wife!
Posted by chopper on Mar 21, 2007 at 3:19 PM “The idea that Nazi Germany’s economy wasn’t on a war time footing until a year before Germany was forced to surrender doesn’t even make common sense. What kind of footing were they on all during the War?”
Cabbie, you seem kind of slow on the learning curve there, Nazi Germany wasn’t exactly run on common sense principles. It’s true that Hitler rapidly expanded the German army (from a very low Wiemar Republic base of only 100,000 men) but he continued to keep the German economy on a peacetime footing until 1944. When he sent troops into the Ruhr in 1936 he only sent 40,000 lightly armed men, his generals were terrified of a French and British reaction. At that time they could have easily brushed aside the German army.
“You guys rely on fascist sources for your information. To bad. Your misinformed.”
Really? You mean my college professors (I majored in history) and such mainstream historians as AJP Taylor are facists? This must be the new, hard-left expanded definition of facist, where anyone to the right of, let’s say, Noam Chomsky is automatically deemed “facist”.
“You also don’t know much about socialism.”
You’re dealing with theory. I’m dealing in facts.
Posted by chopper on Mar 21, 2007 at 3:57 PM Thanks, Chopper. Actually our Shitcago cabbie is as unfamiliar with theory as he is with facts. He’s an old line Stalinist Popular Front Retard. He can only scream “auntey seamite,” “narzi,” “foochist,”
“rayshist,” when he gets challenged. Just stay of his cab. You’ll catch social diseases if you don’t.
Posted by blondemike on Mar 21, 2007 at 5:09 PM I don’t know what cracker college you went to but they misinformed you. Hitler’s Keynsianism was based on the military. Read the Arms of Krupp and anything by Tim Mason. It is agreed that the Nazis used the military to boost overall economic productivity. By 1938, average wages and salaries were at the lowest proportion of the German GNP in Germany’s history. It was not popular consumption but the military that boosted the economy. The rest is just the new trendy fascist apologia which is not worth much at all.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 21, 2007 at 9:54 PM It was NOT based on the military, Hitler had lower per capita military spending than Stalin, Churchill and FDR, that’s why I recommended the Burton Klein book, numbnuts. Those 38 stats are as bogus as the “Black Box of Nazism” written by Jewish Communist liar Willie Munzer. It was THE HUGE INCREASE IN CIVILIAN CONSUMPTION THAT MADE HITLER ALMOST UNIVERSALLY POPULAR WITH THE GERMAN MASSES INCLUDING TENS OF MILLIONS OF FORMER SOCIALISTS AND COMMUNISTS WHO CONVERTED TO NATIONAL SOCIALISM.
Sure it would have evntually collapsed because you can’t defy laissez-faire in the long run but every German who lived back will tell you how much they loved the Nazis, possibly accepting Jews. Tim Mason is a discredited left hack and the Arms of Krupp is the usual hyped bullshit trying to make another dishonest dollar off Hitler.
Posted by blondemike on Mar 21, 2007 at 11:42 PM Who are you to dismiss Munzer, Mason and anyone else you disagree with. You are the HACK and you have no brains or sense but to read discredited nonsense and dogma. Also try reading Alfred Sohn-Rethal’s The Economy and Class Structure of German Fascism. Also Daniel Guerin’s Fascism and Big Business. Wages in 1938 were stagnant and experienced no real increase since 1928. Per capita food consumption declined markedly as did most consumption except that of the rich. The main reasons unemployment dropped from 6 million in 1932 to 300,000 in 1939 was the military economy, the carting off of many of the unemployed to concentration camps, the exclusion of women from the unemployment rolls, and the elimination after 1935 of hundreds of thousands of Jews from the economy and job market. If this sounds like a real plan consider that although the German GNP increased markedly as well as government revenue by about 30% by 1939, while imports also increased and the standard of living for the average German didn’t improve much over that which prevailed during the late Wiemar era. According to Mason, hours of work were much longer, the Deutsche Arbieters Front increased the average work week from 60 hours to 72 hours, and the rate of industrial accidents increased markedly. Average annual productivity increased remained below 1.5% from 1932 to 1939. Real working and middle class income was stagnant. There was also a great shift of working and middle cleas income to the rich as there is in the US today. And of course the German Government ran big deficits.
And for those who think Germany’s war footing came late, consider that by 1939 about 46% of the government outlays were military. By 1936, military spending accounted for 10% of the GNP, higher than in any other European country. The production of military goods from 1936 on pulled the Germany economy up along with the production of capital goods for industry much of which was military related. Consumption was depressed and investment and industrial production was up. The worker suffered both as producer and consumer. Hitler’s regime was hardly one which benefited the worker. Of course, we know that fascism is a knee-jerk reaction to capitalist crisis which is niether sustainable nor practical.
Many Historians distort the reality of German rearmament. By 1944, as the Nazis were clearly losing the war, Hitler excersized control over the commanding hieghts of the economy to a greater degree. Taxes were lower on the rich than in most european countries and this also changed. The Nazis intensified their control through economic policy and in the economy itself but this is different than claiming that no military-industrial complex was created through massive government deficit spending since 1936 on the emerging war economy. The Nazi war machine led the German economy from 1936 onward.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 21, 2007 at 11:57 PM Who are you to dismiss Irving, Barnes, Taylor, Beard, Hoggan, Mattogno, Veale, Rudolf, Rassinier, Faurisson, Neilson, Leuchter and many others simply because you disagree with them and refuse to read them ? You can make all the claims that you want about “the Nazi war machine” and they are all refuted in Burton Klein’s 1959 Germany’s Economic Preparations For War. Rather than prolong another childish You Sez, I Sez waste of space here get off your stinking behind and rad the book, I can recommend others too. You have one partially truthful statement, by 1944 the Nazis had FINALLY assumed greater control over the commanding heights of the economy which is EXACTLY what the other gentleman and myself are saying. Nowhere near 46% of the government’s outlays in Germany were for military purposes in 1939, you must be thinking of the USSR, the US and the UK. After that date it radically increase AFTER the UK and France STARTED WW2 over the legitimate German claims to stolen German territory occupied by but not IN Poland and dirty asshole FDR backed them along with his Soviet agents like Harry Hopkins and the stinky pro-war groups here correctly named by Lindberg. Your figures are bogus, the German standard of living increased and the workweek decreased during the PRE-war period. You read totally discredited leftist sources usually written by hysterical Jews of the usual distinctly mediocre mindcast of the tribe exemplified by nonentities like yourself. Unlike you I do read opposing sources and all the ones you push are HACKS. I guess as a hacker you cotton to hacks.
Posted by blondemike on Mar 22, 2007 at 4:40 PM All the books you suggest are fraudulent so why read them? All the writers are more interested in their fascist agenda than historic truth. Your claim that Poland started WWII is appalling and silly. Even a right winger like Ernst Nolte would dispute it. The data about the Nazi economy is from Richard Overy and Tim Mason. The work week increased markedly as I stated and the median income stagnated. This brooks no controversy. The standard of living for the German working cless decreased.
One reason for the war was that it became an extention of the German militarization process itself. The Germans built such a huge war machine and became so economically dependant on it that war became the only way to sustain the economy and sustain the continued demand for military equipment, ordinance, ammunition, and supplies for the battlefield. Only a war could absorb all of Germany’s military productive capacity profitably. The falling rate of profit in German capitalism was resolved by the war machines restoration of profitability through its expanded demand for war goods and suppressed consumption of the working class. The workers were squeezed in favor of capital. The increased hours of work and stagnant wages and consumption raised the profit rate and mass of profit in the overall economy. This was the real function of the War and German military buildup. As Horkheimer once remarked, “those who don’t want to discuss capitalism should also keep quiet about fascism.”
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 23, 2007 at 3:25 AM So now you’re saying that the nasty French and British socialists started the war, and the innocent nazis were victims of Jewish-inspired socialist oppression.
Dickhead.
Posted by Major Major on Mar 23, 2007 at 3:34 AM Damn, Chicago. I wish you wouldn’t interrupt me when I’m in the process of insulting the Fascist from Oakland.
The thing about military Keynesianism is that it acts as an economic stabilizer which attempts to prevent capitalist over-expansion or collapse. When the economy expands (aggregate supply exceeds aggregate demand), prices drop, factories are closed and workers are laid off. Excess productive capacity and surplus labor are redirected into the military economy which produce destructive, domestically non-competitive products that are directed against national competitors. When the economy contracts (aggregate demand exceeds aggregate supply), prices rise, factories are re-opened and workers are recalled. Productive capacity is re-directed back into the civilian economy and military personnel are discharged and re-enter the labor pool. The problem with military Keynesianism is that, since the Second World War and the advent of the Cold War, the US depends upon it to prop up an increasingly non-productive, service-centered domestic economy which relies upon the chronic production of military conflicts throughout the world.
Posted by Major Major on Mar 23, 2007 at 4:06 AM “when the economy contracts prices rise, factories are reopened, and workers are recalled”
I don’t know whether or not you are refering to the dynamics of a normal business cycle or what but I found this claim dubious at best. Business cycles exist within the overall trend of the economy, but they usually involve a slowdown or recession which results in the consolidation of the economic through “shakeouts” that have large competitors eating up small ones, reinvestment, rehiring, some price increases and renewed activity all in a cyclical fashion. I’m not so sure that this relattes to the issue of military Keynesianism.
The overall tendency of monopoly capitalism toward stagnation is a separate issue from the War Economy. Baran and Sweezy, key theorists of this phenomenon, have claimed that late monopoly capitalism has a chronic tendency toward stagnation and cannot of its own internal logic regenerate its own recovery toward long term growth. This requires exogenous jolts to the system like massive military spending which renews the profit rate while suppressing consumption through capital intensive production that doesn’t increase employment pressures on the profit rate through higher wages. This is precisely what happened in Nazi Germany. Capitalism stagnated due to cut backs in investment and a rise in overcapacity which was addressed through massive military production. Worker consumption was repressed in favor of investment and profits. In the US, post-WWII capitalism lived off the 30 year boom based on consumer durables and housing demand from a newly emerged middle class whose savings resulted from the wartime pent-up demand based on earnings from war production and delayed consumer goods production.
The crisis of German monopoly capitalism required such an intense redirection of productive capacity into the military in order to suppress working class consumption and demands on capital that a war was necessary to absorb the entire mass of output of the new German war machine. The Nazi economic experience was really nothing more than the redirection of income from the working class to capital through the intensification of low wage employment at long hours and stagnant real wages to make up for the low hourly productivity increases throughout the 1930s which averaged annually less than 1.5% until the start of the war. Political repression of the trade unions was accomplished through the German Labour Front which was a tool of the Nazi Government. Thus the crisis of German Monopoly capitalism’s stagnation was briefly resolved through fascism and imperialism.
The same is true of US monopoly capitalism currently. We are similarly facing competitive pressures on US capitalists some of which is resolved through globalization and liberalization of the US economy, and some of which is resolved through wars of aggression giving the US access to energy resources and the core assets of foreign economies to take over through a contracting system like those of Iraq. Money is provided for this purpose through a newly regressive taxation system. In any case, US capitalism is resolving its crisis in the same way as Hitler did.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 23, 2007 at 1:07 PM Can we get back to the youthful expression of feminine bi sexuality? I would like some in depth reporting on this phenomena. Perhaps a documentary…....................
Posted by texasindependent on Mar 26, 2007 at 6:44 PM Debating Hitler’s war economy is so much more fun!!
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 26, 2007 at 9:09 PM Shitcago, you always say that any book that you disagree with is “fraudulent” but you never give any arguments, only assertions, the very few refs that you give are almost always ones that have been
debunked by revisionist histories such as A.J.P. Taylor, who was the leading historian for fifty years in the UK until his death some years back. Every assertion that you have made about the National Socialist war economy has been in error to date. All you do is recite the same old Marxian crap from Monthly Review Press as if that has not been asked and answered a zillion times. You say that debating the German war economy is so much fun but you have yet to read the Burton Klein book to even know how to debate the subject ! You might impress certain PD people here like the negroid racist Major but don’t get too subtle because Major only has an 85 IQ. His pecker is the alleged compensating factor. You know the bigger one is the tinier the other is…...and Major’s has got to be huge, ain’t talkin’ about his brain size obviously. Mason is a discredited Marxist hack and Nolte has repeatedly proclaimed that there is no academic freedom or free speech in Germany so how the fuck would even a colostomy bag dufus like you know his real views ? Major, watch your truss ! Oh by way, the National Socialists WERE SOCIALISTS as were the Mussolini fascists but, yes, the capitalist UK and France started the war, see Taylor’s The Origins Of The Second World War.
I have been more than willing to discuss at length both fascism and its antipode capitalism and even though fascism is a form of socialism I have been awilling to refute the absurd exaggerations
by Chicago Crabs and his peepul about “world conquest” and ” mass extermination conspiracy” etc.
Chicago, when are you going to change colostomy bag ? The Chicago Cab Commission is getting to cite you in this matter. Major Major is the only one who hasn’t complained about the smell to date because it smells just like home sweet home to him. Major of course divides his time between house arrest, Lyndon La Rouche rallies and NAMBLA meetings.
No, TexMexASS, you may not borrow my newspaper to use as a Me Hee Can umbrella. To answer your other request, Major Major will LOAN you a recycled rubber. For your pecker, not your feet. TexMexASS, I know you are into trisexuality as most of your people are, I never lived next to a Me HeeCaner that didn’t raise roosters and they don’t just eat them either. Actually Major Major has told me that the old saying that we have here in Louisiana concerning anti-Arab racists like you, “Suck My Duke” applies to you now.
Posted by blondemike on Mar 28, 2007 at 10:23 PM One of the better books on this topic is Tim Mason’s Social Policy in the Third Reich. In it he argues that the rapid growth of Germany’s War Machine and War industries grew so fast that it created significant labor shortages elsewhere in the German economy particularly agriculture. SInce the labor force participation rate hadn’t changed much since Hitler took power-it was just over two-thirds of the employment age population-labor shortages aggravated all of Germany’s problems and by 1938 the strengthened political position of the German Working class led to renewed industrial conflict, something German Fascism was designed to address in its rise to power. The German workers were engaging in industrial conflict as a result of labor shortages thus threatening profits. The war and consequent economic expansion disciplined the workers and absorbed and utilized the increased capacity and additional investment called forth by the demand for war goods. Thus the Nazi aggression and warlike foreign policy was a form of suppressed class conflict.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 29, 2007 at 8:01 AM That is a TERRIBLE book, looked at it years ago, there are much better books that are not written by Marxist Stalinophile Party Hacks. Even though Nazism is National Socialism and thus not part of the very peaceful, nonimperialist capitalist system they did not have an aggressive foreign policy. They tried to obviate the class conflict. The National Socialist foreign policy was identical to the Weimar foreign policy except they were more willing to use force because the damn Versailles stalemate had gone for close to two decades. The German workers supported Hitler, the uprising of the Communist and Socialist workers predicted by the Commie media including the then left TNR and Nation, never materialized. Hitler won them over with his welfare state policies which was the enactment of Keynesianism on a massive scale AS KEYNES HIMSELF ACKNOWLEDGED AT THE TIME. See James J. Martin’s American Liberalism and World Politics, 1931-41, two volumes, Devin Adair, 1964.
Posted by blondemike on Mar 29, 2007 at 3:42 PM To say Hitler didn’t have an aggressive foreign policy is quite ignorant. He invaded and conquered several countries taking over all of Europe from the English channel to the Urals. I’d call that aggression. He killed millions needlessly. The entire world agrees with this statement except for psycho-fascist morons with MENTAL ILLNESS who should not go off their medications. Germany stole all the mostly Polish speaking areas of the Polish Corridor in the Polish partitions of the 1790s. All Versailles did was return the areas to their rightful Polish owners. In addition, no one ever did anything from 1936 to 1939 when Hitler reversed all the provisions of Versailles unilaterally. He was appeased time and again. The UK didn’t care so long as he allied with them against Russia. He attacked Western Europe and that was his undoing. The attack on Poland was unnecessary as the Polish Colonels were pro-German and anti-Soviet. The Nazis could have used this to advantage and got Danzig in the bargain but were far to greedy, racist, powermad, and maniacal.
Tim Mason’s brilliant study Social Policy in the Third Reich is one of the most acclaimed works on the topic and respected by scholars all across the political spectrum. German workers at first supported Hitler as the economy recovered but turned against the regime as they became more exploited and forced to sacrifice. Their living standard eventually declined and by 1938 almost all of the real increase in median wages and income in Germany was due to vastly increased hours of work as is currently acknowledged. Industrial conflict was rife and threatened German employers who sought war as a way to suppress class conflict.
The economy definitely was on a war footing from 1936 onward. According to Mason, “...national spending on armaments quintupled from RM 6 billion in 1935 to RM 30 billion in 1939. The main reason was that Gross National Product rose from RM 74 billion to RM 130 billion; the percentage expended on armaments was 8% in 1935 and about 23% in at the beginning of the war…Between 1935 and 1939, investments in the capital goods sector increased fourfold, and after the autumn of 1936 nearly half of all fixed investments were in the militarily-important branches of industry that came within the purview of the four year plan. It is therefore not suprising that the consumer sector’s share of the GNP fell from 72% (1935) to 54% (1939)...The buildup of [the Nazi military forces] which was stronger than that of any other nation at the outbreak of the war (with the exception of the Royal Navy), took place mainly between 1935 and 1939 and was made possible with the enormous expansion of industrial plant and the manufacture within Germany of all strategically-important raw materials.”
Mason then goes on to stress the most interesting point of all. “Despite the fact that the economic and social history of these years was charactorized by the frantic pace of rearmament, there is now no doubt that Germany’s arsenal in the last few months of 1939, was not up to the strategic demands placed on it.” In other words, despite the massive, unprecedented, and unparalleled scale of Nazi rearmament, it was still not up to the capacity required by Hitler’s massive military plans for total world conquest nor did it have the sufficient manpower and material resources required for the incredible task.
Hardly a strategy of non-aggression.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 29, 2007 at 5:56 PM I have already answered this at great length, see A.J.P. Taylor’s The Origins of The Second World War, David L. Hoggan’s The Forced War, Harry Elmer Barnes edited Perpetual War For Perpetual Peace, the five volume The Tragedy of Europe by Francis Neilson, The Churchill Legend by Francis Neilson, Volume 1 and 2 of Churchill’s War by David Irving, Blasting The Historical Blackout by Harry Elmer Barnes, Advance to Barbarism by F.J.P. Veale, President Roosevelt And The Coming Of The War, 1941 by Charles Austin Beard, Back Door To War by Charles Callan Tansill, Design For War by Frederic Sanborn, Pearl Harbor by George Morgenstern for starters. Hitler never had nay plans for “world conquest” FDR admitted his “map” alleging Nazi conquest of the western hemisphere never existed. See Charles Lindberg’s Diaries and see today’s IHR.org website for a reprinting of the great Lindberg speech showing the three main elements lying us into the war, the Jewish Community, the Brits and the Eastern Financial Establishment. Mason was a Marxist hack and his work is worthless. If The UK and France hadn’t declared war on Germany, Hitler would have never been in any Europeancountry, his sole dispute was with Poland over the stolen German city of Danzig. If Poland had been reasonable there would have been no world war. FDR was the villain pushing the UK and France for war and FDR’s advisers were almost 100% Jewish Reds. Mason has only been hailed by Marxist hacks and the usual popular morons who invariably back them. Chicago Colostomy Nut Bag is your typical hysterical Juden male who is repudiated by his own women, he is forced into relationships with his fellow demented tribal males who invariably go into the booby hatch at periodic intervals. Chcago thinks if he repeats a lie often enough it becomes truth and by the way Hitler NEVER said this. He was strictly accusing his OPPONENTS of this tactic and he was right. Compared to the Marxian Stalin Shitbags he opposed he was a true moderate.
Posted by blondemike on Mar 29, 2007 at 11:21 PM William Shirer and other have published captured Nazi documents like “Case White” showed plans to invade Poland and other European countries regardless of the Wests reaction. The UK only appeased Hitler until it was intolerable. The US invested in Nazi Germany and practically built the economy back up from the scratch. The trouble was that Hitler’s war plans were so extensive, always becoming more and more far reaching, that he actually outran his own industrial capacity and labor and raw material resource availability. This is not the same as NOT having the German economy on a war footing!!
Read Mason more carefully and also try Alfred Sohn-Rethal’s Economy and Class Structure of German Fascism (London 1978, CSE Books) Anarchist Daniel Guerin wrote a gem in 1934 called Fascism and Big Business. That is also wonderful.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 29, 2007 at 11:34 PM Shirer’s book has been totally discredited, see Barnes Blasting The Historical Blackout wherein he dissected many of Shirer’s lies and noted that it would take a book of his size just to document all the errors of fact and interpretation in The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich. Shirer was your prototypical Soviet Stalinist Commie Fronter. Even Murrow had to disavow him when CBS fired him in 1947. Guerin is no anarchist but a Marxist like Chomsky and his thesis was demolished
by Henry Turner’s great work on big business and nazism. Hitler’s war plans were virtually nonexistent to the point that Nazi Germany was the last power to introduce central planning, not till 1944 ! Hitler was deeply involved in military strategies AFTER the UK and France started WW2.
But he had no far reaching plans of conquest which came back to haunt after the Russian campaign went south. HITLER ONLY INVADED THE USSR TO FORESTALL A STALIN INVASION FROM THE EAST, SEE THE BOOK STALIN’S WAR. ALSO THE HARRY ELMER BARNES MONOGRAPHS BLASTING THE HISTORICAL BLACKOUT AND THE INTERVENTIONIST CHICKENS COME HOME TO ROOST. By the way, Noontide Press is far from the only revisionist publisher but they are among the best and I would request that you remember them in your will and leave your estate to them, go the ihr.org website for details.
Posted by blondemike on Mar 30, 2007 at 12:12 AM You are full of shit. All of the sources you cited are shit. Hitler invaded the USSR for conquest. According to Alexander Wirth, Stalin didn’t even counter attack against the Nazi onslaught but ordered his ground troops to retreat with their artillary and not even return fire when doing so was clearly an option. The Russians were under siege for over two years before they turned the tide first at Stalingrad, then Kursk, and then as they pushed the Nazis all the way to Berlin. All the people you cite are lying fascist sympathizers and racists who have long been discredited. The UK and the French should have declared war as soon as the Nazis began to menace Czechoslovakia for no damn good reason. You are a fascist liar and racist pig.
You can’t answer any of the facts or arguments that I put forth so you cite works by dumbass fascists as if that by itself is some kind of argument. Shirer’s book has NEVER been discredited and it has been one of the longest running works to be reprinted over and again on the topic of WWII. For over 40 years The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich has been reprinted. Millions of copies have been printed and sold. I have the 30th anniversary edition which I purchased while I was abroad living in Tel Aviv.
No one believes that Hitler had peaceful intentions. The world knows the truth as do the German people themselves. They think fascists like you suck. They know that you pigs only want to give fascism a face lift through denial so you can pursue a renewed fascist movement. It will never work, moron!!
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 30, 2007 at 5:23 AM Chicago “Argument”—-“Lyyyaaaahhh ! Raaayyyyssshhiisstt ! Faaaayyyssshhhiisstt ! Naaaarrrrzzzziii ! Auntey-Semenite ! Why ? BECAUSE I say so ! Hitler was trying to conquer the world ! Why ? BECAUSE I say so ! No one agrees with you ! Why ? BECAUSE I say so ! ALL of your sources are shit ! BECAUSE I say so ! Shirer’s book must be good because it’s sold a lot of copies and been around for a long time (like Mein Kampf ?) BECAUSE I say so ! ALL of your sources
are discredited FFFFAAAAYYYYSSSHHHIIISSSTTSSS BECAUSE I say so ! Tel Aviv is a wonderful place to buy Shirer at 40 BECAUSE I say so ! Stalin wasn’t going to attack Germany BECAUSE I say so ! Barnes and Taylor and all the rest are LYYYAAAHHSSSS ! RAAAAYYYYSSSSHHHIIISSSTTTSS ! FAAAYYYYSSSHHHIIISSSTTSS ! NAAAARRRRRZZZZIIISSS ! Auntey-Semenites ! The German agree totally with me BECAUSE I say so ! WW2 should have started in Prague BECAUSE I say so ! It was the FFFAAAAYYYSSSHHHIISSTTSS fault that Prague alone in Europe survived the war intact ! It should have destroyed like all the others BECAUSE I say so. I don’t have to answer your arguments BECAUSE I say so ! Barnes never debunked Shirer, he endorsed Shirer BECAUSE I say so ! Nobody could debunk Shirer because his book has gone through almost as many as Joan Peters’ great work BECAUSE I say so. Lllyyyyyaaaaahhhh ! Rrrraaaayyyyssshhhiiisssttt ! FFFFAAAYYYssshhiissstt ! NNNAAAARRRRRZZZII ! Auntey-Semenite !
BECAUSE I say so ! And STOP talking about my colostomy bag ! BECAUSE I say so !”
Wwwwwwwwwwwooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwww !!!!!!!!!!!Impressive reasoning, dude ! You are…..are….....are…........well, untermensch. Frankly, if six TRILLION hoomans like you like were to vanish, it wouldn’t be even remembered.
AND the Chicago Taxi Commission wants you to change your colostomy bag BECAUSE they say so, and because you STINK. As we say in Louisiana, SUCK MY DUKE.
Posted by blondemike on Mar 30, 2007 at 4:53 PM Frankly, shitforbrains, you are the one who doesn’t present any data. Anyone who compares your posts and mine on any issue would have to conclude that I present my case more persuasively and with more supporting evidence.
The Czechs suffered enormously under the Nazis. To say the Nazi dismemberment and subjugation of Europes sole democracy “saved” it and its capital city is a twisted piece of fascist reasoning. The Nazis carried out hideous collective punishments for resistance there like the massacre of the entire town of Lidice’ in 1942 while it was under Nazi occupation. About 340 innocent men women and children, about a fourth of those killed in the village, were rounded up and killed in retribution for the assassination of Heydrich. Another 1,000 or so Czechs from other villages were killed in an ongoing fit of Nazi vengeance over Heydrich in places that had nothing to do with the assassination. The fact that you support Nazi brutality is testimony to the fact that you are sick and a racist. And just in case you and your fascist moron friends want to deny this too, German soldiers documented the entire operation on film!!
The Nazis were planning to attack Russia since 1935 both because they always wanted to conquer the country and because it was apparent that the Wehrwirtshaft (war economy) of the Nazi Regime needed a military effort of that order of magnitude in order to allow for the sufficient sustained expansion of Germany’s industrial capacity to restore the profitability of German capitalism under the prevailing conditions of natural resource constraints and the balance of class forces in industry which would favor the worker due to continued labor shortages if not for the fascist regimes political repression. Alfred Sohn-Rethal’s Economy and Class Structure of German Fascism goes into detail with regard to the bureaucratic planning of the relevant Nazi state agencies for the war and its relationship to the overall economy. In any case, Hitler had always talked about lebensraum and taking over the vast fertile slavic lands to the east to feed Germany and settling Germans in place of slavs who were regarded as inferior according to Nazi racist ideology. He made his intentions clear enough to be understood by all in his book Mein Kampf in which he discussed conquest of the east as German “destiny.”
Also, on the topic of Stalin’s retreat under Hitler’s attack see Alexander Wirth;s Russia at War. This is the most repected work on the subject of the eastern front.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 30, 2007 at 10:50 PM Chicago cabbie writes: “Raaayyyyysssshhhiiissssttt ! Ffffaaayyyssshhhiiisssttt ! Naaaaarrrrrrzzziii ! Lyaaaahhhh ! Auntey-Semenite ! My sources are true because I say soooo ! Just because Prague was totally intact after WW 2 doesn’t mean I’m wrong ! I’m never wrong ! My Commie sources NEVER fail me ! Sure I made up the world conquest bullshit that never existed in Mein Kampf.
It’s true anyway. Why ? BECAUSE I SAY SO ! Sure I made up the 1935 Hitler invasion of the USSR but it’s ok because I’m one of the circumsized CHOSEN MASTER RACE. We don’t have to
have facts ! G-D is on our side ! Fuck you goyim ! Just because the US under Ike and the Soviets had the same 10-1 policy on exceutions as the Naaarrrzzziiisss doesn’t they were evil, only the Nnaaarrrzzziiss. Why ? Because I say so. You don’t like it, go smell my colostomy bag !”
Woooooooooooweeeeeeeee ! Impressive nonreasoning dude, i believe you are setting new records….....Oh, that buzzing is the Evanston PD at your door, another DSM roomie went loco ! Show ‘em your nuts, Chicago !
Posted by blondemike on Mar 30, 2007 at 11:39 PM Your rant should get you committed but mental health institutions are no longer long term and if you’re not insured even the brief stay is a real fortune.
Anyhow, I digress. World conquest definately was in mein kampf. Reread it windbag. Sure we had the death penalty in the US…for people who committed murder not innocents or political dissidents as in Nazi Germany (what is a 10-1 policy?)
You never answer any of my points. If Danzig was the whole cause of Nazi aggression and the real focal point of the war, why did Hitler invade every place but Danzig until 1939 and a whole lot of other places afterward. This made no sense. If all he wanted was to unite Danzig with Germany proper, he could have marched in and conquered it in 1936 when the German Wehrmacht was rebuilt and annexed it. If the West appeased him with Czechoslovakia, Austria, East Prussia, and Alsace-Lorraine, sure they would not have given a rat’s ass about little Danzig. After all Chamberlain liked Hitler and saw him as an ally against Bolshevism. Didn’t the UK, the US, Poland, and many others invade Russia along with Germany in order to “strangle Boshevism in its cradle” between 1918 and 1920? Surely if Germany only wanted Danzig and a narrow corridor to it she could have had it with little trouble. The Poles actually offered quite a wide corridor to east prussia. Germany, even after versaille, had some of her lands that were heavily Polish speaking. The lands to the east such as Pomerania, and upper and lower Silesia were always majority Polish speaking and were siezed by Germany in the Partitions of Poland. They remained Polish for over 125 years of German rule until WWI. The Germans had NO right to these lands. Versailles rightfully returned them to the Polish People. The Germans had no right to a continental empire. None of the big powers did. The Germans or volkdeutsch who were expelled from Poland after the war were the several hundreds of thousands who were settled there by the Reich during WWII after the Poles and Jews were deported and killed. It was called “Aryanization” and it was justly reversed by the Russians and Poles after WWII. The Germans were rightly taught an abject lesson in existing within secure and recognized boundaries.
Prague was looted and raped. The fact that it was not bombed to rubble is no compensation for the illegal and attrocious occupation and murder of the Czech people. You are a typical fascist bully counciling the victim not to resist lest things become worse for them than they could be without resistance. This is a disgusting mentality.
In addition, the German economy, by June 1941, subsisted almost completely on the nearly 3 million foreign slave laborers in Germany relieving the labor shortage. Without this slave labor force, the invasion of the USSR would not have been possible. The war thus muted the brewing social discontent of the German masses simmering just below the surface. To rely purely on the German working class to produce enought for the requirements of conquest would have meant imposing sacrifices that would have caused the beginning of the Reich’s downfall. To abandon war would have meant social conflict out in the open. The combined discipline of the war, the use of foreign slave labor, and the political repression of the working class allowed a profitable expansion of German industry without the pressures placed upon profits that the resulting class conflict would have brought forth. As in Germany in 1939/45 so it is in the US 2001/the present.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 31, 2007 at 4:26 AM Cabdriver,
Some of us have realized that Mikey is an unconscious master of sublime irony. Therefore you should consider his every statement as meaning exactly the opposite of that which, on the surface, it implies. I dunno, repressed and unresolved sexual identity issues, maybe? His psychotic fugues and schizoid rants are stunning in their scatological cohesiveness, no? Psychobabble of the first order.
Were I a licensed psychiatrist, I’d prescribe 50mg Mydixadril administered nightly. Mikey might not realize any benefit, but I’m sure his wife would appreciate it. Assuming, that is, she enjoys anal intercourse and rapine role-playing scenarios.
Posted by luminous beauty on Mar 31, 2007 at 4:38 PM Some good points, luminous beauty, and very well said. Expect to draw wild rage from BM, however.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 31, 2007 at 6:53 PM I have answered ALL of your points at great length before with refs. No German invasion of any nonGerman territory before the UK and France declared war on Germany in 1939. Rhineland was German territory and that was all they were powerful enough to accomplish in 1936, they were not ready to tackle Danzig, which they saved for last. Austria was a German nation and overwhelmingly supported reunification with Germany. Germans lived in the expelled areas of Poland and Czechoslovakia for hundreds of years, far longer than Jews in Palestine and those beautiful Czechs and Poles murdered three million Germans while expelling fifteen million Germans. There were never anywhere near three million slave laborers in Germany itself prior to the war, maybe a few tens of thousands at the internment camps, which unlike in Russia were not death camps and unlike in Russia did not contain tens of millions of prisoners. The Germans never lootedor raped Prague their occupation, your thinking of Soviet Jew killer Ehrenburg and his urging the Soviets to rape every Berlin above the age of 7, which they did. Versailles stole much German territory to give illegally to Poland and even more Russian territory which is why Stalin denounced Versailles.
References: Stalin’s War by Ernst Topitsch
The Origins Of The Second World War by A.J.P. Taylor
The Tragedy of Europe by Francis Neilson
The Forced War by David L. Hoggan
The 1960 Report of the West German Government on the Sudentenland Expulsions of Germans
from German Areas Occupied by Poland and Czechoslovakia.
Churchill’s War, by David Iring, Vol 1 and 2.
The Churchill Legend by Francis Neilson.
Churchill:The End of Glory by john Charmley.Final point, the Communist takeover in Czechoslovakia in 1948 and the Soviet military occupations
were far more brutal than anything Hitler did. See Taylor’s origins for thr reasons that Hitler peacefully occupied. Taylor was the leading UK historian for 40 years, a lifelong leftist, a Germanophobe, not published by Noontide Press and an opponent of Chamberlain’s “appeasement” policies at the time in the 30s but later Taylor realized that Chamberlain was right and Churchill dead wrong.
Ok, again you have been fully rebutted with refs.
Posted by blondemike on Mar 31, 2007 at 9:32 PM A few more points to clean up: I read Mein Kampf twice and there is not any program for world conquest therein but as Taylor noted it’s not a reliable guide to Hitler in power. He loved the Brits and hated the Frogs but in power he got along much better with the Frogs, even forsaking Alsace-Lorraine which Weimar would never do. He was anti-Soviet but had an alliance with them. and so on. He never advocated any extermination of the Jews in Mein Kampf or when in power. He did want to have their own country preferably out of Europe. The war greatly hurted, not helped the German economy. See Germany’s Economic Preparations For War by Burton Klein, the Nazi recovery was a pro-labor, Keynesian Welfare State recovery, NOT a military one, which helped sink their economy. Also Revisionist Viewpoints by James J. Martin, chapter on Keynes introduction in German edition of the General Theory and why in Keynes’ opinion Germany was far more receptive soil than the english speaking countries for Keynesian economics.
LB, I responded to your stupid remarks on Prop 13 on the other thread, go read them. You have been mystical and irrational from the get-go. Nothing you write is even coherent. The trouble with
responding to an imbecile is that you might be taken for one.Finally, Shitcago, my wife has instructed just simply tell you to fuck off.
To paraphrase Galt, “If you want to pretend that I have not refuted you with refs at length, should I also pretend the same ?”You are a typical Jewish male according to my Jewish wife and it is ok to tell you that six TRILLION of you killed would be of no more consequence to the world than that many turds being flushed down the toilet. My wife loathes the “kike” adjective but YOU fit it to the T crossing the I.
I have better things to do than waste further time repeating for the umpteenth time the same thing I already have because a sorry little stunted Jewish male likes to play the same games. Go fuck yourself, go put your head in an oven. I DO NOT CARE. And contrary to the willowy old whore LB I mean exactly what I say. Capice ? Go find yourself a compatible male lover. Not interested.
Posted by blondemike on Mar 31, 2007 at 10:03 PM Mikey,
You may well mean what you say, but what you say does not necessarily mean what you think it means. It’s an ironic fact not accessible to solipsistic narcissists.
I knew refering to Prop. 13 would get your self-interested panties in a bunch. It is part of the reason I brought it up.
Capice?
Posted by luminous beauty on Mar 31, 2007 at 10:23 PM First of all you have only made assertions without backing them up except to say that so and so says so. The people you cite with the possible exceptions of Burton Klein and AJP Taylor are NOT respected historians and would not be taken seriously by any real historian including Klein and Taylor. That is not just my opinion it is a fact and it is a view shared by most professional historians from right to left.
The insane figures on Germans killed in the mass expulsions are ridiculous. There were only 7 million Germans killed in the entire war in the European theatre mostly through combat and allied bombings. Some estimates for total civilian and combat deaths are as low as 5.5 million !! Most were soldiers and not civilians. There couldn’t be over 3 million killed in the westward expulsions of volkdeutsche. Your claims are not made by historians but by hysterical racist German Chauvanists and fascists who are paranoid about anti-German feeling. Yes, human rights violations occured and rape took place in the expulsions. The same occurred when the Nazis murdered and expelled people from their homes in the “drive to the east”. The Germans killed far more people in WWII than Stalin, who saved Europe from German barbarity. It is the consensus of the whole world that the Germans invaded, murdered and interned relentlessly. They had dozens of death and labor camps all across occupied Europe.
The stupid remarks about Prague being saved from damage is similar to a thug holding up a bank and saying “nobody moves, nobody gets hurt!” If you succumb to a bully or criminal you can sometimes lessen the ultimate damage. This doesn’t mean we should tolerate criminals and bullies. They need to be eliminated because of their evil behaviour toward others. Hitler was appeased with the Sudatenland in 1938 (when Chamberlain stupidly declared peace in our time)and then he went and brutally invaded and conquered all of Czechoslovakia in March 1939 deceiving the world as to his true intentions.
You evade the issue of Danzig like a squirmy dog. If Hitler only wanted Danzig it was obvious he could have had it. If the UK and France said nothing about Czechoslovakia (a quarter of which he gave to Hungary), Austria, and Alsace-Lorrainne, they certainly wouldn’t have cared about Danzig since it was much less relevant to the west and easier to justify. Hitler obviously wanted to occupy all of Europe. He implies Germany’s right to do so in Mein Kampf where he also blames the Jews for all the world’s ills. Sorry you and your fascist friends don’t see the obvious. Germany stole lands which were majority Polish like Pomerania, Upper and lower Silesia, and other areas as well in 1795. Versailles was right to return these areas to Poland in 1919. The Poles were easily 60% of the Pomeranian region and over 85% if the German population of Danzig is excluded from the figure. The Germans had no right to demand the entire corridor which had been historically Polish for a thousand years. The German population of Poland was less than 4% at the time of the 1921 Census and made up an absolute majority in no particular province.
The 3 million foreign slave laborers in Germany figure pertains to the situation after June 1941 and is from Tim Mason, a more reliable source than any of the ones you cited and is cited far more frequently by other professional historians. The war did initially have a demand stimulous on the German economy but called for brutal sacrifices by the German working class. Wages in real terms were suppressed as was consumption which was falling rapidly as a proportion of the GNP due to a drop off in the production of consumer durables and light consumer goods to make way for the war production which crowded out any other kind of investment. The overall German economy was harmed by the overextension of the war machine and import dependency on raw materials. The upside was that the burden was borne by the working and middle classes while the rich and corporations made huge profits from war production which continued to soar as a percentage of the total economy. This led to a disaster for the workers. They ultimately turned against Hitler.
.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 31, 2007 at 11:04 PM Refuted above with refs galore. The West German Government, an anti-revisionist out installed by the Allies, did find that over 15 million Germans had been expelled and at least three million died during those muderous expulsions by the loathsome poles and Czechs. you will notice that cabbie ALWAYS minimizes German or Arab stats & deaths while inflating those of his beloved mediocre peepul whose average IG is 99 in Israel and less here. Tim Mason is neither known nor respected outside of Monthly Review Stalinophile Marxist-Leninist Circles. All the historians I cited are Ph.D trained, Hoggan’s book was based on his 1948 harvard Doctoral Thesis under William L. Langer. Barnes wrote more than thirty books dealing with history, philosophy, law, crimonolgy, sociology, psychology, culture and politics, on every field he wrote in he forgot more than cabbie ever knew. Cabbie’s “arguments” consists of the classic kikester shyster tactic of trying to wear the opponent down by repeating the same shit without acknowledging the rebuttals. EVERY sentence that he wrote has been refuted by myself MANY times over.There’s an old legal saying when that reputable lawyers use when kikester shysters try to keep asking the same questions over and over, ASKED and ANSWERED.
Posted by blondemike on Apr 1, 2007 at 8:39 PM BM,
Most historians settle on a figure of 14 to 16.5 million ethnic germans resettled from Poland and other places that the Nazis occupied and expelled indigenous inhabitants. The idea was retribution for the millions of people expelled from their homes and killed by the Nazis so their property could be “aryanized” or settled with ethnic germans. The need to make room for returning displaced Poles and others in the Allied Displaced Persons camps who lost their homes during WWII due to Nazi persecution. The number of deaths of ethnic germans in the resettlement process, which was forseen as a legal nad orderly process in the Potsdam Negotiations, exceeded that which the allied powers forsaw as occuring. Low estimates range from 500,000 to 1.1 million to a higher 2 million figure maintained by many historians but no higher. Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Poland had the most volkdeutsch most of which were deported in retribution for the millions deported and killed by Hitler and the SS. About a quarter million ethnic germans were allowed to remain in Czechoslovakia but many were killed or deported to Stalin’s death camps. It must be recalled that much of the fault lies with Hitler settled millions of volkdeutsch in place ot displaced Jews and Slavs all over occupied Europe and thus set up even the long standing communities for expulsion in the heat of war where the orderly resettlement envisioned by Potsdam became impossible and new and old German communities became quite indistinguishable.
BM, I don’t defend the conduct of the mass expulsions but I don’t think we should exaggerate them. I also think they should be seen in context. The Nazis brought all this on not the allies. It was a great tragedy. Many people suffered needlessly. All the more reason to oppose fascism!!
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 2, 2007 at 2:43 AM REFUTED WITH REFERENCES ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS.
The figure of 15 million Germans expelled with 3.5 million murders is a conservative given by the former Allied imposed Bonn Government, revisionists think it’s even higher. The “figures” that you give are from the same discredited Commie sources that invented the phony “four million” Auschwitz, now lowered to 900,000. Actual Jewish Auschwitz figure will be under 100,000. See I know the trick of your most mediocre peepul, you totally exaggerate your own figures and totally minimize everyone else’s. That’s why your peepul could claim “800 million” deaths at one battle with the Romans. Frankly, a lot of stereotypes are true, like blacks commit many more crimes and Jews tend to greatly exaggerate. Better call off AIPAC’s coming war with Iran, you won’t believe the anti-Jewish reaction it will cause here. People are getting of dirty little “dual loyalty” traitors over here except I maintain there’s no “dualness” involved, only loyalty to Greater Israel. The only new claim made is the fantastic one that Hitler settled millions of Germans in place of Jews and Slavs. Not true and this contradicts your earlier that they imported “three million” because of a labor shortage in Germany. The “historians” you refer to are Party hacks but in any case your two main lines of argument, the argument from authority and the argumentum ad hominem, are both logical fallacies. You are a despicable, lying, ugly sack of shit, I have no desire to carry on any further correspondence with you. I have only written here to correct the record. You are the typical, hysterical, mentally unbalanced Jewish Narcissist Male, as my wife observes. Somehow I’m supposed to endure your vile ad hominems on myself and my sources while paying respectful attention to your few sources and pretending that I give a flying fuck about anything you write. Well, fuck you you ugly little piece of shit ! How out of touch with reality can you be ? ALL future postings of yours are going to be responded to only in this way: “ASKED and ANSWERED.”
Posted by blondemike on Apr 2, 2007 at 4:21 PM I didn’t use any left sources but standard historians. The high figures even if given by the BundesRepublik was revised downward. The fact that Germany settled about 15 million Volkdeutsch in place of Slavs and Jews deported to concentration camps does not negate anything else that I have said. The three million slave laborers that were imported were mostly Poles, Russians, and others while the volkdeutsch were used to settle in order to “aryanize” colonized territory in occupied Europe. Many Poles and Jews were expelled from the areas of Upper and Lower Silesia and Pomerania and were replaced by Volkdeutsch from the Reich. In Czechoslovakia the Sudatenland was annexed to the Reich as was the Polish areas mentioned. These areas became part of the “Greater Reich” and Germans were settled in place of millions of Jews and Slavs expelled.
The German population of Poland in 1921 was about 101,000 and just under 200,000 in 1939. Czechoslovakia had about 2.5 million Germans of a total population of nearly 15 million. After the war about 1.7 million germans were expelled to the American Zone another 750,000 to the Soviet Zone and another 225,000 allowed to remain. Most of these were added by settlement or aryanization during the war. At the end of the war only about 150,000 Germans remained in Czechoslovakia after the Benes Decrees. About 98% of the Germans in Czechoslovakia supported the NSDAP and welcomed the Nazi invasion. These folks were stripped of their citizenship and property after the war and deported to allied zones of occupation. The main reason for annexing the Czech territories was that Bohemia and Moravia had abundant industrial production capacity for arms and capital goods needed by the German war machine. An artificial exchange rate wth the Reichsmark was established for the Czech currency after March 1939 creation of the Czech Protectorate so that Germany got Czech production at near confiscatory rates all through the war. In Poland, there were about 1 million Volkdeutsch in the border areas annexed to the Greater Reich and another 120,000 in the General Government in central Poland. All were expelled in the course of the Russian/Polish retaking of Poland from the Nazis 1944/5. About 200,000 Germans were expelled from Hungary.
Many of these people wound up in Stalin’s Gulags. But consider that they were a willing fifth column for the Nazis and they willingly overtook property from their Jewish and Slavic neighbors knowing that they were being shipped east to be killed on behalf of Germany’s Aryanization scheme. Germany was said to have “lost” part of its pre-Versailles empire and a significant number of Germans with it that Hitler claimed he was only trying to recover. But these areas were stolen in the first place by the Polish partitions or other annexations from earlier wars like alsace-lorraine. The Sudatenland never actually belonged to Germany.
BM, I’m sure that you would not care what happened to the 400,000 Jewish settlers in the WB and Gaza if the Palestinians siezed the lands and expelled them violently. This is the same idea.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 2, 2007 at 6:40 PM REFUTED MANY TIMES BEFORE WITH MULTIPLE REFERENCES.
ASKED AND ANSWERED. THE FIGURES WERE REVISED UPWARD, NOT DOWNWARD AND THE 15 MILLION PLUS GERMANS HAD BEEN LIVING IN THOSE AREAS FOR CENTURIES. CENTURIES. I AGREE WITH YOU THAT HITLER WAS RIGHT TO DETAIN THE JEWS BECAUSE BY YOUR STALINIST LOGIC THEY WERE A FIFTH COLUMN AND IT IS A CRYING SHAME THAT FEW HUNDRED THOUSAND JEWS DIED IN EUROPE DURING WW2 INCLUDING ABOUT 30,000 AT AUSCHWITZ.
Posted by blondemike on Apr 2, 2007 at 6:53 PM Not true. The agreed upon figures by the current German government are about 14 to 16.5 Volkdeutsch forcibly removed from eastern europe, about half from east germany Many of them were living in eastern european communities for many centuries but many were settled there by the SS settlement program headed by Reinhardt Heydrich. Many of these volkdeutsch (generally over 90% throughout Nazi occupied Europe) facilitated the Nazi occupation and assisted the SS in rounding up and expelling Poles and Jews. They were a Nazi fifth column by all accounts. This was especially true in Poland and Czechoslovakia where they claimed to be mistreated before the war despite obvious cultural independance and Czech constitutional gaurantees of their rights and privaleges. Many lined up to give the fascist salute as the Nazis marched on Prague in March of 1939. No wonder the resentment of the Czechs led to a mass expulsion. In Poland they willingly displaced Polish and Jewish property turning these people over to the SS. Some Volkdeutsch were unjustly mistreated. Most were part of the Nazi occupation.
I’ve looked up many sources and the country by country breakdowns vary for different reasons. Some are including refugees that fled with the allied armies west to avoid the USSR. Stefan Wolff of Bath University in England puts the figures for expellees from German annexed territories of Poland at 9.5 million not including another 1.5 million from the city of danzig and the interior of Poland. Two to three million volkdeutsch were expelled from the czechlands. Another million or so from Hungary, romania, the baltics and the volga areas. BM, before the war Poland, Czechoslovakia, and east prussia had about together four to five million germans including the free city of danzig at the most. In the aftermath of the war we are talking about german populations in excess of three times the amount of the pre-war population levels. This demographic change suggests massive Nazi resettlement of ethnic germans from the Reich to the annexed territories of the border countries plus other places as well. This policy of foreign colonization is at the heart of the ethnic cleansing by the allies after WWII as a way of reversing (it was hoped at Potsdam in a humane manner) the odious policies of the Nazis during the Second World War.
BM you are just another hysterical Germanophile nutcase. Frankly your country was reunited and you got rid of the Russians after all the shit you caused. I’d call that a win. You have over 150 million people world wide. We have only 12 million. Stop bitching.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 2, 2007 at 7:15 PM Again, you lie. See Nemesis At Potsdam by Alfred DeZaya. The 15 million expelled Germans had lived there in German speaking terrtitories in what VERSAILLES turned over to illegiltimate criminal governments in Poland andCzechoslovakia, FOR CENTURIES. Any expelles from “east” Germany were only after Poland annexed those areas after WW2. Kant’s hometown of Konigsberg became Kaliningrad after WW2. Not only the Czechs and Poles but the Soviets stole huge areas of Germany after WW2. In addition to the Versailles Treaty major thefts after WW1. Your Jewish “math” isn’t working here. You minimize the German atrocities while you maximize your own. It’s known that the Germans registered every inmate at Auschwitz, there were a total of 74,000 thus registered of which 30,000 were Jews and not all of those died. So it has gone from original Soviet claims of nine million to four million to 900,000 to less than 30,000. And of course it was originally claimed that four million Jews died in Auschwitz but after the Commie government collapsed and they had to change the official fairy tale, Wiesenthal Et al then claimed they never claimed four million Jews because then they would have to deduct three million from the six million total. But they lied, they did. Even J. Edgar Hoover in his 1958 Masters Of Deceit writes of four million JEWS perishing at Auschwitz. Now by the way, the number of Germans is well under 100 million, they have been below replacement levels for years as have the Jews but you lied on both counts. The Jewish world population is between 20 and 30 million, the Germans closer to 90 million. And by the way I am NOT German. There was no “reversal” at Potsdam but only a coldly calculated effort to commit as much genocide as possible on the Germans a la the Communist Morgenthau Plan and other Jewish inspired Allied genocidal policies, for the first four years after the war most Germans had less calories than the inmates in the Nazi camps. See Operation Keelhaul by Professor Julius Epstein and Nemesis At Potsdam by international lawyer, Alfred De Zaya. Jews under Stalin killed at least 50 million Russians, Ukrainians, Balts, Chechens, all the leaders of the KGB and its predecessors from 1917 up till the Korean War were Jews. Stalin spoke Yiddish in his home and had the death penalty for anti-semitism, so-called. Go to the IHR and VHO websites, while some establishment sources have also published this work on the Jewish origins of the Bolshevik Revolution, Noontide Press has been great here. They are a beacon of light in a shit filled ocean of establishment lies. I think they have a program where you can leave your estate to them. look into it, Shitcago. The massive demographic changes after WW2 which YOU EARLIER DENIED, prove the point about the expulsions en masse. That some Jew researchers try to minimize it is entirely expected. You have to remember as my wife acknowledges, Jewish males are the world’s greatest liars, exaggerators and outright hoaxers. The blacks commit much more crime and the Mexicans are much dirtier pigs and the Irish drink more and Arabs are more prone to commit petty theft. Israelis are much more into grand theft. Ok, cleaned your clock again. Go to ihr website and download the very long revisionist bibliography, hundreds of good books.
Posted by blondemike on Apr 2, 2007 at 9:21 PM I find the freudian slip you made saying I “minimize german attrocities while maximizing my own” to be amusing and curious.
Anyhow, your rant is more and more psychotic. There are no more than 15 million Jews in the world today and the figure could be as low as 12 million. The SS established the German Resettlement Trusteeship office in 1939 just after the invasion of Poland. The Race and Settlement office was in charge of all operations in occupied eastern europe related to settling millions of ethnic germans in homes and areas vacated by murdered Slavs and Jews. The Germans had no legal claim to the border areas of Poland and Czechoslovakia because they were historically non-German and had been stolen in the partitions of poland and in the 1930s. In 1933 there were just over a million Germans in poland not including danzig which german exersized defacto control over through the Nazified city council after the 1933 election which was filled with electoral fraud and coercion, and 2.3 million in Czechoslovakia. The pre-War ethnic German population of Eastern Europe was in excess of 15 million people. The nazis settled millions of ethnic germans in these countrie during the war at the expense of others. They were justly removed after the war . Also the border shift westward was just considering german aggression for centuries.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 3, 2007 at 5:20 PM REFUTED AT LENGTH WITH REFERENCES. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
HISTORICALLY THERE HAD NEVER BEEN A POLISH NATION, IT WAS LARGELY PART OF RUSSIA. CZECHOSLOVAKIA WAS AN ENTIRELY ARTIFICIAL CREATION OF VERSAILLES. THE “BORDER” WERE NOT BORDER AREAS UNTIL AFTER VERSAILLES AND THEY HAD BEEN INHABITED BY GERMANS FOR MANY CENTURIES WHICH RESIDENCY GAVE THEM FULL RIGHTS. THE SS OFFICE NEVER AMOUNTED TO A HILL OF BEANS BECAUSE GERMANS WERE NOT RESETTLED IN EASTERN EUROPE AND THEY HAD THEIR HANDS FULL WITH PREEMPTIVE STRIKE ON USSR. SEE STALIN’S WAR AND THE BOOK OPERATION BARBAROSA. THE NAZIS NEVER SETTLED MILLIONS OF GERMANS IN EITHER POLAND, CZECHOSLOVAKIA, RUSSIA OR ANYPLACE ELSE. ANOTHER BIG LIE FROM THE SAME COMMIE SOURCES THAT INVENTED THE “HOLOCAUST.” AND YES THE JEWISH POPULATION HAS BEEN NOTORIOUSLY UNDERCOUNTED FOR GENERATIONS, IT’S A DECLINING ONE BUT STILL AT LEAST 20 MILLION AND IT COULD BE AS MUCH AS 30 MILLION. FINALLY THE ONLY ELECTORAL FRAUD IN DANZIG WAS DONE BY THE POLES. HITLER WON EVERY ELECTION HONESTLY BECAUSE HE WAS A GENUINE SOCIALIST WHO WAS LOVED BY THE WORKING MAN. NOT MY POLITICAL CHOICE BUT MOST GERMANS THEN LOVED HIM.
Posted by blondemike on Apr 3, 2007 at 11:00 PM Saying there was no Polish or Czechoslovakian nation is more absurd than claiming there was no Palestinian nation. Poland was partitioned after for 125 years between Russian, Austria, and Germany after existing as an independant Kingdom for centuries. At one point it was the biggest country in all of Europe. Czechoslovakia also existed for centuries but was taken over by the Austrian Habsburgs.
You are the liar. And a sick Nazi to boot. All your figures are false. There was never any official revision of the figures for those killed at Auschwitz. There never has been a reason for it. You are a senile old Nazi with no brain. How tragic.
Just the fact that you think the Georgian anti-semite Stalin spoke yiddish at home. This is even to moronic for noontide press.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 4, 2007 at 6:20 AM The Palestinians never had a state either but as a people they did not expel 15 million Jews and murder 3.5 million of them in the process. Czechoslovakia never existed before Versailles as was the case with Yugoslavia. The Polish Kingdom was a joke BUT it always had millions of the German and Russian tribes living in its area. Again the right of the people living there takes precedence over any subsequent state claims BUT THEN YOU ENDORSE ETHNIC CLEANSING AND GENOCIDE IF IT IS NOT DIRECTED TOWARDS JEWS. SO MUCH FOR THE ANTI-FASCISM. Now neither exists at all, artificial rump states created at Versailles. The Bohemians existed but never as a state. The Germans registered EVERYONE at Auschwitz and everyplace else, there were no immediate killings or exceptions and those are the final figures. Tough if you don’t like it ! Stalin was never anti-Jewish (Jews aren’t semites except Arab Jews) until 1950. I read this but not in a Noontide book but that wouldn’t make any difference anyway, ad hominem fallacy, 80% of Noontide is great, 20% awful, better average than most publishers. You are reduced to the ad hominem logical fallacy again. No wonder your IQ never made it out of two digits.
Posted by blondemike on Apr 4, 2007 at 1:25 PM The Polish Kingdom was not a joke. It was a commonwealth ruled by a large gentry class which comprised about 12% of the population according to respected British Scholar Norman Davies. The liberum veto and the far flung nature of the commonwealth made the various nobility that ruled the country through the Parlaiment, or Sejm, highly dependant on and beholden to large neighboring powers such as Prussia and Russia. By the mid-18th Century a very decentralized and loosely unified Poland become fractured enough so that the personal interests of the various compromised nobility prevented a centralized nation-state from emerging. This resulted in the three partitions of Poland in the last quarter of the 18th Century. The Germans got Pomerania stretching to Konigsburg to create imperial contiguity, the Russians got the eastern half of Poland including Vilna which was the main city of the Lithuanian Duchy attached to the Polish commonwealth, and the Austrian Habsburgs got Galicia, a southern strip of Poland stretching from Cracow to Lvov which was heavily Ukrainian. This didn’t mean that Polish national identity was compromised or weak to non-existant. It only meant that Poland was to divided to form a strong, defensible nation-state and was swallowed up by three of the four European continental empires.
In the aftermath of WWI the allies gave Poland back almost all the territory lost in the Partitions. The reason was (a) Germany and Austria were enemies of the Allied powers in WWI and, (b) the Russians pulled out of the War after Lenin had siezed power whom the allies opposed. Poland’s role in the 1920 invasion of the USSR also heartened France, US, and UK who rewarded Poland with more eastern territory cutting deep into the Ukraine. The allies thought that they would strengthen the Western alliance system and weaken Bolshevism with an expanded Poland even if only nearly half of the people of the newly established state were non-Polish speakers. The areas regained in the west were rightfully Polish as they had been for centuries and were opportunistically stolen by Germany in the Partitions. German speakers had to be settled there in order to make the case for Germany. In the east, there had always been majority Russians and Ukrainians.
The Cxechs also had sovereign principalities that were taken over by the Austrian Habsburgs. In the high middle ages, the Bohemian Prince allowed the settlement of German farmers in the western ridge of Bohemian in order to promote higher agricultural productivity. Still, Bohemia and Moravia remained sovereign and majority Czech. The Nazis had no historic or legal right to invade, partition, and annex portions of thier country in 1939 as it was a legal sovereign entity and Central Europe’s only Democracy.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 4, 2007 at 4:43 PM Your points here even if true are irrelevant to the points that I made. The fact is that the Germans had been in those areas for centuries and the expulsion was genocidal and wrong. The Naiz had every right to go into the German dominated areas of both countries and Weimar would have if they could have. Ancient Poland sounds like a smaller scale version of the family dictatorship of Kuwait. Again, interesting but irrelevant. Finally that German territory WAS NOT THE CRIMINAL ALLIES
TO BEGIN WITH, SAME AS IN VERSAILLES AFTER WW1. THEY EVEN GAVE GERMAN TERRITORY TO RUSSIA. LIKE KANT"S HOMETOWN.
End of discussion. Asked and Answered way too many times.
Posted by blondemike on Apr 4, 2007 at 7:14 PM The countries that the Nazis invaded were legal sovereign entities. They were internationally recognized as such. The Nazis were lawless barbarians who engaged in illegal revaunchism. They had NO right to do what they did. Certain parts of the Versailles settlement was legitimate. Obviously the reparations were greedy and wrong and though the allies tried to mitigate the impact in 1930 with payment reschedualling and new US loans it was still to harsh for a solid economic recovery.
The Nazis stole huge areas of other countries on the meagre excuse that a few Germans were living there. Many of them were settled there as in the 1870s and 1880s during Bismarkes KultureKampf. This was an imperialist crime. The Nazis had no right basing their claims on such historic crimes. Since 1872, there was an intense process of Germanization of the Polish parts of the German empire. The idea was to reduce the Polish influence in certain parts and settle Germans in their place. The Germanization campaign is indisputable and beyond all doubt. In east Prussia the county of Olescko which was more than 90% Polish in 1818, was only one third Polish by 1900 according to a Prussian Census. The Germanization campaign in these areas continued until the Germans faced defeat in the First World War. This campaign consisted of deportations of Slavs and Jews, the forced sale of non-German property to Reichsdeutsch to be settled in the eastern parts of the empire, prohibitions on expansion of Polish holdings in German areas, the Germanization of schooling and public life in majority Polish areas of the eastern empire. During the Second World War hundreds of thousands of children were taken from Polish families and “Aryanized” by adopting them into German homes. Their birth parents were often killed. About 10,000 of these children were killed by the Nazis as inferior.
BM, you are a hate monger and a Nazi pig for making apologia for these hateful crimes. You are also a degenerate moron.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 5, 2007 at 5:46 AM REFUTED MANY TIMES WITH REFERENCES.
As all the sources I gave made clear the Germans HAD BEEN LIVING IN THOSE AREAS FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, NOT SINCE THE LATE 19TH CENTURY. NOTHING ABOUT VERSAILLES AND ITS TWO ASSOCIATED TREATIES WAS GOOD. AGAIN I HAVE GIVEN MULTIPLE REFERENCES HERE. THESE SO-CALLED LEGAL SOVEREIGN ENTITIES WERE SET UP ILLEGALLY WITH GERMAN AND RUSSIAN STOLEN LAND AT THE POINT OF A GUN AFTER WW1.
Your defense of the anti-semitic, fascist Poles is really touching, you don’t even know the Jewish history in Poland. There was no Aryanization program in Poland during WW2. Hitler had his hands full fighting for survival. This is on a par with the gas chamber stories. Some Jews on the eastern front were shot during the war. It was in the thousands, not the millions. Chicago, you are a Judenrat masterbator who thinks that if he pretends that I haven’t given extensive refutations with multiple references, that I will also pretend the same ! Sad. You lose again, this time for good. Your apologias for genocide and ethnic cleansing are getting tiring, nothing new, just a rehash of the same Stalinophile sheist. Time to get a life !
On a separate note just broke down the total US aid to Israel as of 10 years ago on the Productivity thread, gave the wrmea.com source, it was just under 135 billion then. Easily 250 billion or close now. Check it out.
Posted by blondemike on Apr 5, 2007 at 4:54 PM BM
Your sources are fraudulent. Everyone knows that the Nazis carried aryanization programs everywhere. You disrespect the dead with your bullshit. Versailles had the force of law. The illegal siezures by Hitler didn’t. Germany was the one who stole lands not the Allies. The Post WWII border settlement was just. So was the expulsion of many of the fascist volkdeutsch.
The Poles were anti-semites but the Germans had a real genocide program. Denying the KultureKampt, and the Holocaust won’t make them go away.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 6, 2007 at 1:32 AM They had no “genocide” program and there were strong feelings in the US Jewish Community that the Poles were planning to exterminate their Jews before WW2. Of course at that time they did not know there was going to be a WW2. There’s no “denial” because there is nothing to “go away.” The “Aryanization” program like the “holocaust” simply never happened on any large scale. Any law including Nuremberg Laws and the Gulag and Jim Crow and Slavery and the Inquisition “HAS THE FORCE OF LAW.” So what ?????????????? That hardly makes it right. The postwar genocide and ethnic cleansing was NOT just but totally wrong. By the way, Hitler’s “seizures” had the force of law too as possession is 9/10ths of the law as your friends in Israel will tell you and as much of the USA rests on same. Since the original seizures at Versailles were illegal and more importantly unjust, Germany was entitled to take any and all actions to reverse the original injustice. You always attack ad hominem my sources, you have yet to read, much less refute ANY of them. You are a sorry example of the low intelligence level now dominant among most of the Khazar element. You people lie about everything including being Jews ! You are NOT descended from the original Hebes, bad as they were, but a Turko-Finnish group forcibly converted to Judaism. Get a life !
Posted by blondemike on Apr 6, 2007 at 3:57 PM Cabbie in Chitown, has a hairy little ape like you ever considered electrolysis ?
Posted by blondemike on Apr 6, 2007 at 4:52 PM The Versailles Treaty did have the force of law and returned stolen lands to the Poles and Czechs. The real losers were the Russians if you ask me. Everyone but Hitler recognized the new boundaries. Germany did lose some natural resources in the immediate east like coal, timber, metal ores, and farmland. The German revaunchism is no more legal than the Zionist siezure of lands in the West Bank and Gaza out of a need for “lebensraum” and a racist belief in one’ s manifest destiny. You defend German expansionism for no justifiable reason. There was a Germanization policy from Bismarke on and it was often brutal and always motivated by racism and imperialist conquest. The Allies removal of the ethnic germans and the rearrangement of the borders after WWII finally stopped the racist German colonization drives in the slavic lands for the first time on over a millenium. Enough is enough, I say.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 7, 2007 at 1:25 AM Nuremberg Laws, Slavery, Jim Crow and the Gulag ALL HAD THE FORCE OF LAW AND THEY WERE ALL INVALID LAWS. VERSAILLES WAS A MORALLY AND LEGALLY WRONG TREATY FROM THE GET-GO AS EVEN THE DEGENERATE WILSON RECOGNIZED ON HIS DEATHBED. THE LANDS WERE STOLEN BY THE VERSAILLES TREATY. THANKS FOR ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THE GERMANS HAD PEACEABLY LIVED THERE FOR OVER A THOUSAND YEARS. THEY WERE THERE LONG BEFORE BISMARCK, WHOSE NAME YOU CAN’T EVEN SPELL. THE WEIMAR REPUBLIC NEVER RECOGNIZED THE NEW ILLEGAL BOUNDARIES EITHER. AS USUAL YOU ARE BEING DEFEATED AGAIN IN THE ARGUMENT.
Posted by blondemike on Apr 9, 2007 at 5:51 PM Just read Nemesis At Potsdam by Alfred DeZaya and if you can get hold of it, the multi-volume West German Govt Report of 1960 documenting 3-4 million murders among the 15 million illegally expelled. Chicago, if some humanitarian took six TRILLION of “people” like you out it would be like flushing six trillion turds down the O’Hare shitter.
Posted by blondemike on Apr 9, 2007 at 10:47 PM The Nazis broke international law and the norms of all civilized countries in invading and conquering neighboring countries. You don’t understand this because you are a moron and a racist as everyone knows.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 10, 2007 at 7:31 AM Not only see the earlier references but additionally see Roosevelt’s Road To Russia by George N. Crocker and East Minus West Equals Zero by Werner Keller. Establishes the criminal and treasonous role od both Roosevelt and Truman at Yalta and Potsdam. By the way, if the Germans hadn’t invaded several countries like Norway the Brits would have invaded first as Churchill admitted. Another reason why the charge of “international aggression” at the Stalinist Nuremberg “Trials” was a crock of pure shit. Again see Nemesis At Potsdam by Alfred DeZaya for a startling expose of the consequences of Potsdam, the murderous illegal expulsion of over 15 million Germans from ancestral homes going back to centuries and the murder of 3-4 million. I have to add in conclusion if there is any nation that has broken more international law than the state of Israel I’d like to know it, they in violation of literally hundreds of UN resolutions as well as several World Court rulings. The US is not much better as Chomsky has documented. Getting lectures on civilized norms from people who wear their colostomy bags on their heads instead of their stinky butts is not my idea of enlightenment. By the way, cabbie, you are not “everyone” nor is your shitty peepul.
Posted by blondemike on Apr 10, 2007 at 3:29 PM Hmf.
Here I was hoping for a rousing conversation about the exploration of sexuality and I end up with a bitter debate about Germany under Hitler.
There ain’t no justice.
Posted by Kuya on Apr 13, 2007 at 8:02 AM Sorry, Kuya, Chicago always starts this, I probably shouldn’t respond but I like to correct the record.
Posted by blondemike on Apr 13, 2007 at 3:47 PM I never started the argument BM!! You did. You are the one who’s turned nearly every thread into a long winded and sick defense of you notorious neo-Nazi apologetics. Most intelligent people find it sick and ignorant. You have never convinced anyone of nor really even successfully defended your contention that Germany had “no choice but to invade Poland” in 1939. Certainly, it was not necessary to achieve physical and political control (already achieved by the fraudulaent city council election of 1933) of the Free City of Danzig. The allies sat by and watched nearly seven disgusting years of German aggression and revaunchism answering only with appeasement. The Anglo-French war declaration came only AFTER the Nazi invasion of Poland all the while the Poles were negotiating with Ribbontrop in good faith despite Germany’s long-standing plans to turn Poland into a protectorate at best. The Allies waited until 1942 to engage Hitler’s war machine at all and that was well after he had conquered all the territory from the Urals to the English Channel including many of the Channel Islands where by all accounts there were no Germans whatsoever.
Finally, there was a holocaust of six million Jews and millions of others. Most were deliberately gassed in Auschwitz and five other killing centers in Poland. The two to three million ethnic germans killed in the expulsions west during the war was tragic but understandable. Most, though admittedly not all, were planted there between the various KulterKampfs between 1790 and WWII. The intensification of this process under Bismarck led to exponential growth rates of German population in German held areas of Poland and the Baltics near Konigsburg. During WWII the German population of the Sudetenlands and Bohemia/Moravia doubled due to Nazi settlement. The facts of the Reichs Race and Settlement Office and the German Settlement Trusteeship Office, both run by the SS (Reinhardt Heydrich), and their activities have been documented by any writer who delved into the issue of Nazi Occupation of Europe. Their ethnic cleansing deeds were all well documented. So was the planned genocide they brutally committed.
BM you are a denier of documented history. Common sense tells us that no one could contrive and hide the truth about crimes so vast, of such an order of magnitude, affecting so many people, and having been committed in some many different countries.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 14, 2007 at 2:35 PM Refuted many times over. The very word “holocaust” meaning death by fire is a lie. They originally claimed nine million died at Auschwitz, then foe decades four million, now 900,00 but the actual figure is much lower. The Germans did register everyone at all the camps including Auschwitz-Birkenau complex and the numbers were in the tens of thousands, NOT in the hundreds of thousands and NOT in the millions. The “witnesses” have been proven to be documented liars from Nuremberg on down to the notorious DemJanJuk Show trial where the Court found that hundreds of people were willing to perjure themselves. Read the Chapter on “The German Justice System:A Case Study” by Claus Jordan, a German attorney, in “Dissecting The Holocaust” edited by Germar Rudolf. The very fact that they throw into jail in Germany for doubting the “holocaust” proves it’s a fraud. A truth does not depend on the guns of goons to enforce itself, it can compete in the free market of ideas. A Stalinist concocted lie can’t. The Nuremberg Stalinist Show Trials were a farce and a fraud and 90% of is now even discounted by Raul Hilberg, who has been the leading official “holocaust” historian since 1961. There was widespread torture and intimidation up to the mid-50s then German & other courts have flatly refused to permit any defense, if an attorney defends his client too strongly the attorney gets charged with “denial” and there was a case in the 80s where one guard had 20 witnesses from the camp testifying FOR him and the “judge” would only allow the hostile witness, a bonafide Israeli liar (or is that redundant ?) to testify, Jordan exposes the contradictions and lies in this particular “witness” testimony. It’s true that no one could hide a vast crime and of course there was no vast crime to hide. See David Irving’s Nuremberg:The Last Battle and F.J.P. Veale’s Advance To Barbarism for a thorough debunking of what A.J.P. Taylor called “the macabre farce of the Nuremberg Trials.” Hitler never invaded “Poland” see The Forced War by David L. Hoggan. By the way, the 1933 elections were totally fair, much fairer than any Chicago election has ever been. The Germans were the majority and they preferred the National Socialists. POLAND NEVER NEGOTIATED IN GOOD FAITH, SEE HOGGAN ABOVE AND TAYLOR’S THE ORIGINS OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR. THERE WAS NEVER ANY APPEASEMENT OF GERMANY, THE ALLIES STALLED FOR ALMOST TWO DECADES ON WHAT THEY KNEW WAS AN UNJUST PEACE TREATY BASED ON THE LIE OF EXCLUSIVE GERMAN GUILT FOR WW1 WHICH SIDNEY FAY, HARRY ELMER BARNES, WALTER MILLIS AND CHARLES CALLAN TANSILL UTTERLY DEBUNKED IN SCHOLARLY BOOKS AFTER THE WAR.
Chicago’s rant on Bismarck is pure bullshit. France started the 1870 Franco-Prussian War and Bismarck finished it. The Allies including FDR put tremendous pressure on Poland NOT to negotiate in good faith. Carlo Mattogno, Arthur Butz, Germar Rudolf, Paul Rassinier, Robert Faurisson, J.C. Burg, Jurgen Graf, Manfred Kohler and others have documented the myth of the “five killing centers” does not stand up in fact. See The Hoax Of The 20th Century” by Arthur Butz and Dissecting The Holocaust edited by Germar Rudolf, just for starters. There were never “millions” of people in those camps, much less “millions of Jews” and “others.” Chicago has finally recognized that 3-4 MILLION Germans were murdered by the poles and Czechs BUT HE SAYS ITS “UNDERSTANDABLE” BECAUSE THEY WEREN’T SACRED JOOOOOOOOIIISSSHHH LIVES.
Oh, I understand you very well, cabbie. Chicago now admits that there was no increase at all in the Sudetenland german population during the war, he made up that claim and no German documents support it. Chicago now admits the Sudetenlanders were there for hundreds of years but it doesn’t matter because they were not JOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSS.
Finally Chicago STARTED this by accusing me of “denial” when I corrected Scorp’s stupid statement that the “holocaust” began in 1933, I merely gave the standard orthodox date of 1942 to 1944 which is accepted by ALL historians, exterminationist or revisionist.
Posted by blondemike on Apr 15, 2007 at 9:54 PM America Goes To War by Charles Callan Tansill.
The Road To War by Walter Millis.
The Genesis Of The World War by Harry Elmer Barnes.
The Origins Of The First World War by Sidney B. Fay
A Refutation Of The Versailles War Guilt Thesis by Alfred
Von Wegerer.
The Case For The Central Powers by Count Max Montelgas
England’s Holy War by Irene Willis.All debunk the myth of exclusive Austro-German guilt for the war and
assign divided responsibilty.
Egro for WW2. See works listed below.Perpetual Peace For Perpetual War by Harry Elmer Barnes
Pearl Harbor by George Morgenstern
Back Door To War by Charles Callan Tansill
Pearl Harbor by John Toland
The Forced War by David L. Hoggan
The Origins Of The Second World War by A.J.P. Taylor
Churchill’s War, Two Volumes, by David Irving
Hitler’s War, Two Volumes, by David Irving
Advance To Barbarism by F.J.P. Veale
America’s Second Crusade by William Henry Chamberlin
Design For War by Frederic Sanborn
Getting Us Into War by Porter Sargent
The Tragedy of Europe, Five Volumes, by Francis Neilson
The Churchill Legend by Francis Neilson
American Liberalism and World Politics, Two Volumes, by
James J. Martin
Revisionist Viewpoints by James J. Martin
Debunking The Genocide Myth by Paul Rassinier
Franco-German Unity by Herman Lutz
Posted by blondemike on Apr 15, 2007 at 10:28 PM It doesn’t look like anyone’s addressed the quotation that struck me as the most offensive in the piece: ” ‘It’s the tragic part of being gay (or thereabouts) that I don’t want any part of, honestly,’ writes Baumgardner. ‘It’s not so much that I am afraid of it. It’s more that tragedy is not the whole story and, like focusing on back-alley butchers to justify abortion rights, it’s over-told.’ “
Well, isn’t that convenient for Baumgardner. Not to sound unnecessarily shrill, but some of us didn’t have a choice in the matter. Some of us came out of the closet when the idea of being in it for another second was tragically unbearable; some of us then had tragedy heaped upon us by our families, friends, and loved ones; some of us then tragically struggled, alone, to dig our ways out of those piles of tragedy. It’s ridiculous that this woman would celebrate the virtues of “passing,” something that is apparently so easy for her, and then brush aside the struggles of those who couldn’t pass so easily as trite, overplayed melodrama.
I spend a huge amount of time working with the LGBTQ community on my college campus, and it sounds like Baumgardner is unwittingly widening a growing divide in groups of young queer individuals. On the one hand, I see more and more students who came out at thirteen in a loving and supportive family, and so don’t think that it’s necessary to get involved in queer organizing, be loudly out, or even adopt a gay identity at all. Unfortunately, though these students aren’t loudly out, they’re certainly loud: they seem to be happy to proclaim the Death of Sexuality and the Advent of the Pomosexual and the Dawn of the Post-gay Human to anyone who unwittingly engages them in conversation. And so they drown out a group that is of indeterminate size because it is heartbreakingly meek—-a group made up of people whose coming-out was traumatic, people who are still not out to everyone in their lives, people who are still not out to anyone in their lives, and people who are confused about their identities and desires. All this lovely hot air about the prudence of passing and the triteness of tragedy does very little to help that second group, and in fact just drives its members deeper into confusion, struggle, and suffering—-but at least it’s not dull.
I wonder about the context in which Baumgardner’s line “I don’t want there to be spaces that I don’t have access to” originally appeared. Was she chiding the heteronormative, patriarchal world for barring women, lesbians, and bisexuals from certain of its spaces? Or was she chiding the rest of the queer community for not fully incorporating bisexuals into theirs? I may be a cynic, but I’m inclined to assume the latter—-after all, the former is so clichéd! If I’m right, then she has a hell of a lot of nerve. The spaces that she’s talking about were won after a long history of struggle—-a history with which those spaces are now imbued, a history which they help to communicate and reinforce, a history which they make it possible to teach and remember, a history which makes an identity possible—-and are defended by continued struggle. But she wants no part of that history; so long as she has access to whatever spaces she wants, there’s no reason for her to care.
I, for one, have no plans to develop “straight expectations” anytime soon.
Posted by danielsh on May 10, 2007 at 3:29 PM What does this have to do with the Political Economy of Nazi Germany?
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on May 10, 2007 at 9:45 PM One of the comments above touched off a long (and fascinating) discussion about the political economy of Nazi Germany; the actual article, however, reviewed a book about bisexuality. Since the Nazi discussion had petered out, I thought I’d share my thoughts about the article itself.
Posted by danielsh on May 11, 2007 at 3:09 AM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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