Slavery and the State of Denial

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• Reader Comments (39)

  Page 1 of 1 pages

  So, you say, “Guilt is the primary reason white Americans prefer to look away from the abomination of race-based slavery that laid the foundation for this nation’s wealth and implanted enduring notions of white supremacy.”

  Sorry, but it’s not so with many of us. (I will not assume, as the author, to know what all other “white Americans” may think.)
  The fact is, while I do see huge racial problems in the U.S.,  I seldom think about slavery at all. I never owned a slave. (You never were a slave.) As far as I know my ancestors did not own slaves.  But if they did, it would be their guilt and not mine. I do know my great grandfather fought nearly four years in the Union army even though born in what is now West Virginia. As I cannot take any credit for his military service, neither do I accept any of his possible guilt.

  What I have seen in my lifetime is that much of what contributed to the sorry plight of a large number of Americans today, came as a result of good intentions (or perhaps the guilt longed for in this article).
  • The welfare payments which made it look useless to work for only a little more than what was delivered for doing nothing.

  • The money paid and added to every time younger and younger girls had another child.

  • The “color credits” given through affirmative action which mostly serve to make whites who were not prejudiced become so.

  • The way the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (supposedly preventing racial, gender, or religious discrimination) has established quotas, made census forms include nationality as race, created job security independent from performance (“You can’t fire me — I’m black!” was told to an office manager friend of mine.)

  The nation got more of exactly what it was suppose to eliminate. Those we hoped it would help got more dependency, less education, dead-end jobs, a loss of a sense of accomplishment, destruction of the family.

  If we are ever going to alleviate the racial biases it will not be by constantly picking off the scabs of history, offering preferential treatment, or legislating meaningless apologies.

  Posted by whattheheck on Apr 3, 2007 at 2:08 PM

  Great post, WTH ! I concur wholeheartedly. I always thought that civil rights or forced integration was the flip side of Jim Crow laws and slavery. By the way, check out Steve Sailor’s lengthy review of Obama’s
  1992 bio in The American Conservative, current online issue and it’s
  downloadable. Obama is very anti-white, the media hype is just hype.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 3, 2007 at 4:11 PM

  What the heck and blondmike: Partners in the KKK???

  It’s people like you that have perpetuated the ugliness of racism. One of the themes of the article was the fact that so many people think of slavery as an abstraction and fail to see the connection between today’s racism and slavery. Thank you for proving Mr. Muwakkil right.

  You guys buy into the right wing memes of welfare, desegregation, civil rights legislation and affirmative action. It was the racist elements of society that opposed these measures to redress grievances.

  Congratulations to you both for being a part of the problem.

  Posted by lams712 on Apr 3, 2007 at 9:59 PM

  WTH, would you wake me up if lams writes anything remotely intellectual or that at least isn’t a wordsalad ? Thanks.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 3, 2007 at 10:48 PM

  WTH, would you wake blondemike up in time for the next Klan meeting? Thanks.

  Posted by lams712 on Apr 4, 2007 at 6:46 PM

  WOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW ! So clever, yittle lams…............you think of that all by yo’self ?

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 4, 2007 at 6:52 PM

  The issue of slavery’s impact on the current situation in the US with regard to race relations has been debated since Danny Moynihan’s 1965 treatise, The Negro Family: A Case for National Action. In it Moynihan argued that it was slavery and its continued effects on the US Black Community that was responsible for the poor condition and achievement rates of that community. He stressed that the patterns established by slavery such as the separation of the father from the family and the creation of dependance of the remainder of the family on the slaveholding household continued as a pattern into the modern period with the explosion of welfare households in the 1960s.

  Conservatives impulsively lept to affirm this explaination using the legacy of slavery to account for the “shiftlessness” of the modern “negro” and the sudden proliferation of single parent families on the proverbial “welfare plantation.” Liberals and the Left attacked the study as racist, ahistoric, and politically motivated. They argued that Moynihan focused on slavery in order to allow modern urban racism which was the real culprit for black failures off the hook. They argued that over several migrations northward by black families wanting social betterment they encountered job and housing discrimination and rarely got good high paying jobs. White dominated unions often prohibited black membership closing them out of the growing middle class. Blacks notoriously got what Malcom X called “the dirtiest jobs at the lowest pay” and were often the last hired and first fired. Moynihan also ignored a long standing period of Black entreprenuership from the end of Civil War Reconstruction in 1877 to the start of WWII. It was in this immediate post-Slavery period that Black business ownership rates were the highest. Independant black farming (non-sharecropping) and black community financial independance also prevailed. Much of this came to an end with the recessions before and after WWI and the northern migrations which began to see the US black community emerge as an urban low wage working class for the first time. The gradual elimination of higher wage, low skilled industrial jobs in the 1960s conincided with the growth of black male joblessness and single parent welfare families. Such was a product of the modern trends in a two tier economy, not slavery’s legacy.

  I actually find the Left’s argument in the 1960s far more convincing than Moynihan’s ill conceived diatribe. Today’s Progressives should stick to New Left’s explaination. A return to Moynihan’s nonsense is unnecessary. It is also factually inaccurate and bad history and does a regretable disservice to the political and social cause of African-American advancement today.

  Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 5, 2007 at 6:47 AM

  “Such was a product of the modern trends in a two tier economy, not slavery’s legacy.”

  Interesting post, but what is the source of the two tier economy and the “job and housing discrimination” black families faced as they migrated north?  Slavery institutionalized racism for generations of white folks.  Hence the death of reconstruction, the introduction of Jim Crow, the rise of white supremacy, and the racism that is still evident in nearly every sector of American public life.  Slavery isn’t responsible for some imagined “shiftlessness” in black folks; but it’s legacy can be felt in the very real bigotry expressed by many white folks (c.f. blondemike and whattheheck).  Black folks still face discrimination when it comes to housing, jobs, policing, finance, education, etc.  This is why it is important for American public institutions to stand up and say that slavery and the social attitudes it represents were/are a grave evil.  Through recognition and reparations, our leaders can help us white folks to see the structures of racism that are still extant and work with our black sisters and brothers to dismantle them.

  Posted by Matt W on Apr 5, 2007 at 12:15 PM

  The “racism” is overwhelmingly in the black community. Reparations is a very bad, racist, collective guilt idea. I agree with WTH, the civil rights and related forced integration programs are simply the flip of Jim Crow laws and slavery. Blacks have used this as an excuse for too many generations, people like John McWhorter, Clarence Thomas, Shelby Steele and Thomas Sowell are much better black role models than King or Sharpton or Malcolm or Obama or Jackson. Moynihan was right about the black family, the responses from the cabbie and Matt are just the usual mindless Left boilerplate. These hopeless reactionaries will never change. Deindustrialization is a factor, I agree, but that in no way obviates Moynihan’s thesis on the black family.  The 60s Left was the epitome of no-mindism.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 5, 2007 at 4:36 PM

  First ....Who in the hell are you to determine who is a good role model for the African Americans BM.

  Second….Minority business ownership is at an all time high. Statistically over the entire population minority business ownership is higher than white ownership.

  Third….White people will never understand what it means to be judged by the color of your skin if you admit that little fact it will change the substance of conversation about “race”.

  Fourth….I don’t want apologies, affirmative action, welfare, or help. I like the majority of minorities in this country just want to be left alone to live as we see fit, raise our kids, pay our taxes, and generally be productive citizens.

  Fifth….As a preemptive action BM whatever idiotic statement you reply is racist dogma and choke on my dick mas puto.

  Posted by texasindependent on Apr 6, 2007 at 5:30 PM

  First, who the hell is ANYONE to determine ANYTHING by the crazed nonlogic of your statement ?

  Second, It is also FAILING at a record level, even higher than white business which also fails most of the time. You started from a much lower so naturally the growth looks more impressive than it actually is.

  Third, as a victim of black racism I and MANY other white people DO understand what it means to be judged by the color of your skin.

  Fourth, you are a MINORITY view in the people of coloreds community. Most do want these state programs and most vote Demo in droves. And again who the hell are you to speak for them ?

  Fifth, you contradict yourself here since you do take the time to respond to my many statements however lacking in intellectual acuity your responses always are.  Unlike you I’m not a homosexual so your request to suck my penis is denied.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 6, 2007 at 8:13 PM

  BM, WTH.

  The ethnic and racial designations on government forms and applications are not for quotas but to track minority participation in the job market and education. Secondly, white racism has a determining effect on minorities while the racism of minorities toward whites in insulting but not of much consequence.

  I do feel that welfare is bad and Clinton was right to get rid of the transfer payments as they created dependency and some socio-pathic behaviours and expectation. One of the problems with our society is that the market doesn’t create a paying job for all who want to work despite the growing levels of unmet needs in the area of basic necessities. Investment flows to the highest rate of return which means that there will be no investment to meet human needs only to cater to the consumption habits of those with money.

  The labor shortages emerging is symptomatic of the the growth of knowledge based jobs and very little affordable education infrastructure to train people to upgrade their skills for the changing job market. Health care seems to be number one followed by education and information technlogy. Let’s see if the market produces the skilled workers to fill the new jobs. There has been a upward monthly spike in job creation from 145,000 to over 180,000 net jobs. Most of them are in the skilled job market and will require a lot of training. This will not get minorities more jobs or close the income or wage gaps between Blacks and Whites. Whites will get the skilled jobs and Blacks will get the low paying unskilled ones.

  Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 7, 2007 at 1:18 AM

  Slavery and the Jim Crow racist laws which resulted from the “industrial” abolition of slavery made racism a regional institution in the South.  The willingness of Northern corporate owners to import and hire non-union black workers to break the industrial unions and their strikes for better working conditions made racism a national institution.  You and Whatthefuck apparently believe that you bear no responsibility for the repressive racism of your “racial” predecessors, but you’re willing to enjoy the generational benefits of racist preferential discrimination in housing, education, and employment which two hundred years of white male supremacy have conferred upon you.  Most people, black or white, would prefer to work for a living, not because work, in and of itself, is an especially attractive alternative (and least of all for the employment available to the indigent, unskilled and uneducated), but because employment is preferable to the indignity of welfare handouts or the brutality of imprisonment.  But the jobs are not available for the people who need them, and least of all for the indigent, the unskilled and the uneducated, who are compelled to endure the indignity and brutality of poverty, ignorance and unemployment in any case.

  Posted by Major Major on Apr 8, 2007 at 5:35 PM

  THEY ARE EXACTLY QUOTAS, CHICAGO MORON, AS THE SUPREME COURT HELD IN THE BAKKE CASE. EVERYONE WITH A QUARTER OF A BRAIN KNOWS THAT ANTI-WHITE AND ANTI-WHITE MALE QUOTAS IN PARTICULAR HAVE BEEN RAMPANT IN BOTH THE GOVERNMENTAL AND CORPORATE WORLDS SINCE 1970. ONLY PROFESSIONAL BLACK RACISTS LIKE THIS PHONY “MAJOR” CHAMPION THEM BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IN COLLECTIVE GUILT AND EQUAL OUTCOMES. EVEN IF MY ANCESTORS HAD BEEN SLAVE HOLDERS INSTEAD OF STRUGGLING IRISH IMMIGRANTS I STILL WOULD NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY DID. BY THE “MAJOR”‘S ASSHOLE NONARGUMENT I SHOULD PAY MONETARY TRIBUTE TO ARISTOTLE’S SUCCESSORS BECAUSE OF THE INCREDIBLE INTELLECTUAL DEBT WE ALL OWE TO JUST HIM ALONE. BLACKS ARE SOLELY TO BLAME FOR THEIR OWN PLIGHT, THEY HAVE BEEN ON WELFARE FOR GENERATIONS AND HAVE A MORALLY LOOSE CULTURE OF CRIME. EVERY OTHER GROUP THAT COMES HERE, ARABS, ASIANS, JEWS, EUROPEANS, ALBANIANS, YOU NAME IT, THEY WORK HARD AND GET WAY AHEAD OF BLACKS.
  MY JEWISH WIFE NOTES THE BOOK LEARNING IN HER CULTURE VERSUS NO BOOKS EXCEPT COMIC BOOKS EVEN IN MOST BLACK HOMES AND WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT JUST THE LUMPEN ELEMENT HERE. THE RACISM OF BLACKS AGAINST WHITES IS EVERY BIT AS DESTRUCTIVE AS VICE-VERSA, THE BLACKS CONTROL HIRING IN MANY GOVERNMENTAL INSTITUTIONS AND EVEN THE NEW LATIN MAJORITY IN SOUTH-CENTRAL LA IS RISING UP IN REBELLION OVER THE FAVORITISM BLACKS SHOW TO OTHER BLACKS IN HIRING, PROMOTION AND ALL ASPECTS OF GOVERNMENT. MY JEWISH WIFE HAS BEEN THE SERIOUS VICTIM OF BLACK CRIMES TO THE POINT OF HAVING TWO GUNS HELD AGAINST EACH SIDE OF HER HEAD LAST OCTOBER 26 AND YOU WRITE THAT BLACK RACISM IS NOT OF MUCH CONSEQUENCE ! WHAT AN INCREDIBLY STUPID STATEMENT !

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 9, 2007 at 7:15 PM

  Nor was the abolition of slavery by the industrial, capitalist north over the socialist, slave feudal south the cause of Jim Crow laws. The cause was the incredibly vindictive Reconstruction era by the same radical Republicans who had Lincoln murdered and which led to the horrible backlash excesses of legal segregation. They had hundreds of illiterate, buffoonish blacks installed by the US military in offices across the south and that’s what led to the KKK. Frankly, people of the black racist mentality of the “major” could bring this on again. And I really don’t agree that Clinton’s abolition of welfare was a good thing because most of these people are unemployable due to a lack of work ethic.  If we abolished the minimum wage and all labor laws, there would be 100& employment, only the govt keeps the free market from working.  See Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand and Capitalism by George Reisman for full details.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 9, 2007 at 7:23 PM

  Most crime victims are also black. This has been documented. What happened to your wife is regretable but not the norm. Most crime is overwhelmingly black on black. This is one reason about half the black population when asked supports the death penalty. The gang problem really created that situation. The media showed the outpouring of support for Tookie. What they didn’t mention was that most African-Amercians could have cared less about him and thought his execution was justified. Also, what happened to your wife had nothing to do with racism. Those thugs probably didn’t care who they robbed. They’re thugs. Most of their victims have probably been black. It’s usually a case of Wrong Place Wrong TIme. Most thugs don’t care about race.

  Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 10, 2007 at 7:38 AM

  I don’t care about race.

  If I did, I’d carry a lot of bitterness around with me. My grandmother was raped at knifepoint by a black man. It was when my mom was a child, but the ingrained bitterness I grew up hearing was stark and uncompromising. I also spent most of my youth in a SoCal town with an absolutely poisonous relationship between most whites and blacks (I got my ass beat by black guys more than once for nothing more than being white… and had it threatened to be beat by white guys much more often than that because I didn’t want to “fight for my color” in the racial combat that took place in my high school). My single mom was passed over when we were broke as hell and she needed food stamps, in part because we were white. I was further threatened when I had the temerity to allow myself to form a deep crush on a girl who was black. Asking her to the Prom brought me nothing but grief, from classmates and family (caveat: she herself was a sweetie about it; we weren’t all racists in that town, even if we were surrounded by them).

  I don’t carry that bitterness in my head because although it’s racially charged, I have chosen instead to consider it all as being personal. That is, none of the ugly events I relate above (and yes, I know there are worse ones out there by far) do I assign to “African-Americans” or “blacks” at large. That goddamn rapist, those fuckers at school who ganged up on me, and those others who attacked me or gave me grief, were personally responsible. Not racial representatives, just personally responsible.

  When I see what my elder relatives carry about with them, when I hear the way they speak, or see the way they get all quiet and weird when black folks are around, I know I’m right.

  When my son says he couldn’t be friends with a racist, and when my daughter dates “outside the race” (which of course is fiction, because they’re human), then I DAMN sure know I’m right!

  To be fair, insofar as examples to the kids, there are quite a few non-Caucs in my wife’s side of the family; unfortunately my own side is not so relaxed or open-minded.

  Some of you will say that I was naive to buy into that “content of their character” stuff from Dr King’s speech. He was already assassinated by the time I was old enough to really get it, but I do remember him from my childhood, and frankly I think it’s much more naive, painfully and delusionally naive, to imagine for a single second that American society is going to advance one step further (i.e. going to pull up out of its obvious cultural morass) if its citizens continue to indulge in simplistic, inaccurate categorical generalizations, rather than to take each man and woman at their own personal merits and demerits.

  (My fear about Americans is, that not enough will apply the effort, but will be too mentally lazy, as so many look to be physically and morally lazy… maybe it’s all the damn anti-depressants, I don’t know)

  And, if skin color is a bar to a decent life in spite of hard work, intelligence, and imagination, then that means the economic and educational systems are fucked up (as though that was not apparent), not that hard work, intelligence and imagination are somehow naturally unconnected to attaining a better life. I certainly doubt with great energy that racially-focused programs will have anything like the desired effect, but promoting the belief in personal worth and excellence (and, since I’m in schooling, teaching the means of pursuing excellence in whatever field of interest one has) not to mention diligence, courage, and the resulting self-respect, might. Maybe. But not if you see a man and think “black” or “white” or “yellow” or that other categorical-representative (fictional) stuff. If you can’t just take him as a man and find out what he’s all about as a person, well, probably all the legislating in the world will simply fail.

  And, those psychological thorns will still be in your head. It really is a relief when they’re gone.

  Posted by Kuya on Apr 10, 2007 at 10:33 AM

  What about descendents of white slaves? I’m a descendent of an Irish slave, kidnapped and sold to breed in Maryland… yes, i have PROOF.  Do I get any of these reparations?  Blacks were NOT the only slaves, only the most obvious.

  Posted by SekhmetSatRa on Apr 10, 2007 at 10:58 AM

  That is small comfort to her that that is not the norm BUT it IS. There is far more black on white crime than vice-versa. That has always been true in the north and west but now it’s even true in the south. That most blacks attack other blacks because of easier proximity is true but trivial.
  And no many of the black on white crimes are carefully plotted in advance. Being right across the street from your own house in your own car is NOT “wrong place at wrong time.” My wife says you remind her of the Judenrat Police in the Warsaw Ghetto that aided the Nazis. You are a consistent white self-hater and a Jewish self-hater though you try to cover it up by shouting “auntey-seamite” at everyone else. You are exactly what’s wrong with Jewish males and with the left.  When you become a serious victim of crime please tell us so we can have a good laugh. You are right about one thing, most blacks properly cared less about Tookie, a vicious murderer glossed into a cause celebre by the brain dead left a la “Mumia.”  I didn’t agree with the death penalty, only favor it in the case of treason like the Rosenbergs and the Pollards, but the attempt to whitewash this punk may have backfired. Schwarznegger is more moderate than his Democratic predecessor Davis on crime issues and may have commuted the penalty if the left hadn’t overplayed their hand. In any case, the bottom line is that black v. black crime is irrelevant as soon as YOU become a victim and the black over white crime far exceeds white over black crime. As usual you are wrong and callous to boot, you cabbie moron.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 10, 2007 at 3:46 PM

  Judging from the tone of the post here its an understatement to say “race” is a touchy subject.  And what seems to be an even more touchy subject is the issue of reparations.  But this is a very small sampling of views here so I asked a former co-worker Rob (who’s a 47 y/o white guy) to read this article (but not any of the posted comments) and give me his take on it.

  Rob said, “I don’t feel any guilt about slavery because it seems to me Black people are doing alright, I mean, you don’t seem to have been affected by it.”

  I said, “fair enough, how do you feel about reparations?”  Rob answered, “in theory I’m against it, especially if it involves cutting people a check.  But at the same time the people promoting reparations have solid arguments and can back them up so it would be almost un-American if they didn’t sue the government, people get sued everyday for stuff they can’t back up and may not have even been a party to.”

  I said, “makes sense, so you don’t think Black people today are affected by slavery, Jim Crow and discrimination?”  Rob answered, “well, maybe you are affected in some way but I can’t tell the difference.  I know you don’t show any affects, I think Black people are doing well in this country.  You guys pretty much run things.  America would be boring as hell without Black people in it, in fact I wouldn’t want to live here if Blacks weren’t here.  I said, “you’re full of shit Rob” and he protested, “no, I’m serious.  You guys end up being the best at whatever you get involved in.  Do you watch “Dancing with the Stars”?  Well I wouldn’t if Laliah Ali and Clyde Drexler weren’t on it.  Laliah is an Amazon but at the same time is more feminine than any other woman on that show, no white woman could possess those two almost opposite qualities.  And Clyde can’t dance which completely destroys the myth about all Black people having rhythm but I identify with him as a man more than I do with the white guys on the show, Clyde seems like a regular guy even though he made millions playing ball.”

  Either Rob is very laid back about race or some people posting here are extreme in their views.

  Posted by theloneous on Apr 10, 2007 at 3:54 PM

  Kuya, maybe if YOU were raped at knife point by a black male, you’d care about race. I am so sick of hearing this there are no races mush. Race is a factor and not a small one. Not the only factor but we ignore it at our peril and of course positing the stupidass assumption that racism is most white is the kind of head up the gazoo thinking that has alienated the larger American society from the left. As far as your offspring goes you have obviously brainwashed them with your values but the good news is that they will rebel. You often have good contributions but this cliched ridden intellectual pabulum today is not one of them.
  Sek, join the VICTIMS parade ! Look at me ! I’m a VICTIM too ! Maybe you can join Marc Klaas up at the next DNC convention podium.
  Felonious, so your back again ! You are going to get NOT reparations but a large BILL for black crime and sociopathology.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 10, 2007 at 3:57 PM

  BM,

  You are a sorry assed racist. Showing everyone your deep, painful wounds and then attacking us as if we are responsible is absurd, although we do sympathize with you about your tragedy. Black on Black crime is not and never has been irrelevant. Black on white crime is worse than White on Black crime but then again most Whites live among other whites and are law abiding because they come from stable families and communities. Black on Black crime FAR outweighs any other type.  Even when Black on White crime occurs it is not NECESSARILY motivated by racial factors. I really don’t see why race matters. Would you have preferred your wife to be raped by two white Hells Angels Bikers? Would that be any easier to cope with in the aftermath. There are both whites and blacks that have no respect for others’ rights and feelings and who behave indescently. The majority of both groups are NOT criminals and are law abiding.

  
  You also miss the point about me. I am NOT a liberal or leftist on many matters of criminal justice. Though I share the left’s concern about the rising incarceration rate, particularly among minorities and though I also want to solve the problem socially, I am for the death penalty in many cases. Tookie’s case for one. To quote Schwartzenegger, “His is not a case for clemency.” People can become so damaged by committing acts of violence that they become sociopathic and incapable of valuing human life.I found the obnoxious pro-Tookie activist scenes by trendy morons an insult to the victims and to our society which is reeling from the violence of persons such as Tookie. The fact of widespread social injustice is no excuse for individual socio-pathology since most people don’t respond to problems this way.  BM, if your opposition to the death penalty is based on more anti-government rage than you need to grow up. You can’t privatize the court system and the capital and other punishment it meets out. Conflict of interest, you know.

  And please don’t continue to trash the Jews when your people have such a long way to go. (I know who your people are but don’t want to mention it since there are some good ones like Tom Hayden and of course, the fabulous Michael Moore.(and let’s not forget the Kennedy’s!)

  Finally, the thing about your anti-semitism that galls me the most is that you don’t want the death penalty for those who needlessly and irreparably harmed a loved one of yours but you want it for two individuals you never even knew and who were convicted on hearsay testimony in a trial that had so many due process violations that it should have been declared a mistrail. These two never harmed anyone much less either you or your family.

  .

  Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 10, 2007 at 9:25 PM

  You take up a lot of space as is the wont of bad writers to say the same things over annd over again that I have refuted at great length with references. The Rosenbergs were properly convicted of the most serious crimes of treason and espionage in a US Federal Court presided over by a distinguished Jewish Judge and a brilliant Jewish prosecutor. It was not “anti-semitism” and it was not exclusively “hearsay” though EVERY trial has large elements of hearsay so that is really a weasel word so you can impugn the results that you dislike. You are NOT a semite and questioning the “holocaust” story does not make one either “anti-semitic” nor anti-Jewish. If 5 million Jews we thought were killed were not, that would be GOOD news except to an anti-Jewish person. The Rosenbergs greatly harmed the whole country and the whole free world as Judge Kaufmann noted in sentencing them. As bad as the robbery of my wife was with its implied threat of murder what the Rosenbergs & other spies did was far worse. See Ralph de Toledano’s The Greatest Plot in History. He as a sephardic Jew is a real semite.  As far as Irish go, feel free to trash them ! I do ! I have never had any tribal loyalty. I think the Brits should not have ever occupied Ireland but that’s it. They have come a long way from a century ago when they were treated like dirt. As far as “the Jews” go who the hell are you to tell whom I can and can’t criticize. Your “peepul” are no more sacred cows than anyone else. There’s hardly a group that I haven’t criticized. Tom Hayden ? You’re pathetic. The Kennedys !!!  You’re WORSE than pathetic ! Michael Moore ? You’re nuts. Black on black crime does NOT “far outweigh” black on white crime. It’s more prevalent because of proximity and so many blacks are into crime but black on white crime is quite widespread at least in all US urban areas and it is no small matter.  On the other hand white on black crime is small by comparison. The fact of the matter is that much black crime IS racially based and glibly analogizing it to the Hells Angels can’t erase that. Of course, I don’t want her attacked by white trash either but it is MUCH MORE LIKELY to be attacked by blacks. Those are the stats. Maybe they are “racist” like the FedGov aid to Israel stats are “anti-semitic.” Maybe you are just full of shit too.  Your remarks on the death penalty are puzzling, of course I don’t trust the state. But then I wouldn’t want private parties to inflict it either. I’m opposed to it because you are taking a caged, confined person and cold bloodedly killing them. No way it can be self-defense, which I do favor when it IS self-defense. Probably the majority of no race is criminal but we need to be honest here and acknowledge a far greater criminal propensity in the black and latin communities than among Asians and whites. The stats don’t lie here. No the Rosenbergs did not deserve a mistrail as you put it or a mistrial, they were properly found guilty of their horrendous crime. I have to be honest here, if those two black thugs had killed my wife, I’d probably want the death penalty for them. I hope not but I probably would.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 10, 2007 at 10:39 PM

  Most trials are certainly NOT filled with hearsay because the rules of evidence simply doesn’t allow for it. Period! You just keep reasserting the same old crap with no evidence to support it. The Rosenbergs probably were in contact with KGB agents and probably did pass some information along but they were on trial for a specific crime. Talking to and contacting members of foreign secret services is not in itself a crime for which you can be executed. The prosecution never proved its case that the Rosenbergs (a) were guilty under the terms of the 1917 Espianoge Act or, (b) that they put the country in danger by giving away vital classified information to the KGB which allowed the Russians to make a deliverable Atomic bomb. The 1946 Act is the one they should have been tried under in any case since it was more germaine to their case and this was the opinion of Supreme Court Jurist Hugo Black. How anyone could say the Rosenbergs were not victims of bigoted hysteria is ludicrous. You claim to mistrust the state. What bigger example of a state lynching can there be?  Most REAL libertarians decry the cold war hysteria generated by the state. They also oppose the tangible benefit which only the state and its various subcontractors gleaned from the cold war. You are just a fascist who hates everyone who sided with the Russians in the WWII against the Hitlerian evil which you make no secret of supporting to this very day.

  Your claim that the death penalty is cold blooded murder is itself puzzeling since the individual himself committed murder. Yes, we cage people who do this and justifiably so. Mistrusting the state gratuitously is childish. The state is no different than any other societal actor and sometimes much less self-interested and trustworthy.  You are hypocritical in how you choose to trust or assign blame. It is all politics.

  Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 10, 2007 at 10:57 PM

  Most trials DO have hearsay and the best thing to do is read the references I have given above to determine the guilt of the atom spies. It’s like circumstantial evidence, the right kind can hang you. Ask any lawyer or DA or Judge. The Rosenbergs were Soviet spies PERIOD.  Felsikov has a whole book on it which he did NOT repudiate as you lied yesterday, on a par with your lie about Northwestern firing Butz. What you call the “hysteria” was totally justified, the Soviets had just taken over 1/3rd of the world in a couple of years, including China, a Soviet satellite at that time. The Judge and the Prosecutor were Jewish so there was no bigotry against the Rosenbergs for being Jewish. Only for being Soviet spies and that was justified. You think libertarians favor Soviet spies ?  Black was wrong if you are correctly quoting him and the rest of the Court thought so too despite delaying tactics by him and that other leftwing monkey Douglas. That the individual committed cold blooded murder is true and it does not preclude the cold blooded murderer from being a victim of same. My god, are you really this dense ? The Prosecution PROVED its case against the Rosenbergs and that is WHY they were found guilty, to restate the obvious. You are not at the 99 IQ level of your peepul in Occupied Palestine. So sad…......And by the way, this is the second time today that you, a zionist-racist-fascist-national socialist, has presumed to instruct me on libertarianism ! Knock it off, you sound even stupider than usual.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 10, 2007 at 11:42 PM

  well, to get ANYTHING in this country, you HAVE to be a victim… good thing i’m native american too…..

  Posted by SekhmetSatRa on Apr 11, 2007 at 1:32 AM

  I’ve got to wonder if half of the people posting have ever had a meaningful relationship with someone outside of thier own race.

  Posted by Vanella on Apr 11, 2007 at 3:12 PM

  I have nothing against inter-racial romance but I don’t see how it relates to the comments above.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 11, 2007 at 6:39 PM

  I mean meaningful as in a real friendship, I wasnt thinking about romance I should have been clearer.

  Posted by Vanella on Apr 11, 2007 at 6:42 PM

  Kuya - thanks for your inspiring post. It is nice to know that hate is not inevitable, especially under the circumstances you grew up under.

  Posted by wolf on Apr 11, 2007 at 7:57 PM

  Ok, well I’ve had both personal friendships and good working relationships with blacks.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 11, 2007 at 11:15 PM

  BM
      BULLSHIT…...You are the epitome of the MAN. Well… except you have no money, power, status, or breeding. Ok lets rephrase that…..
  You desperately want to be the MAN and that disqualifies you from…........

  ” personal friendships and good working relationships with blacks”

  I will piss on your grave Mikey.

  When the last of this old geezers generation are rotting in the ground and the racist dogma they preach is forgotten perhaps we all can move past “race”.  Apologize for slavery. It is not white peoples fault that their ancestors bought human beings but the act of apology demonstrates an effort to mend relations. White people make the effort and African Americans accept the white devils apology and lets move the hell on. The only color that matters is green.

  Posted by texasindependent on Apr 12, 2007 at 5:18 PM

  BM,

  You are a neo-Nazi bigot and sick as well. What is it that you want?

  Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 12, 2007 at 5:23 PM

  Have trouble making out yo’ wordsalad, Tex….....you say your skin is turning GREEN !!! Wow, I’d go see a Doc now. You know, it could be the total sum accumulation of when yo’ Papa kept filling up yo’ rubber duck mini-pool with his great squirter when yo’ was a little one…...
  Shitcago, just because yo’ a JOOOOOOOOOOO doesn’t mean that you get to drive yo’ taxi around ChiTown with your colostomy bag over yo’ head. and yo’ need to change de bag too ! Have you consulted the electrolyst yet ?

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 12, 2007 at 9:14 PM

  mike, I wouldn’t ever trivialize the rape, or the robbery, certainly not the panic and horror the women felt. It’s not that I don’t understand fear and anger, resentment, feeling pissed and afraid because of being denigrated and attacked for nothing. Of course not, mike. I’m not standing in judgement. If the tone came across like that, it’s clumsy phrasing.

  But I am still going to dig away at that mountain with my little spoon. I truly think it’s the right direction to go. If it’s tiresome to read then OK, maybe I’ll be more calculating with the frequency of timing when I talk un-race (it does irritate some people, I can see, some way more than it irritates you… a number of other people’s posts in the past, and also several face-to-face confrontations, have been much harsher than anything you’ve said to me), but I am convinced even still, and I really can’t back off on the belief. Like I said, I really think it’s the right way to think and the better attitude to push.

  A lot of us have advocacies we feel are ours to promote, and this is a big one of mine.

  I know you’re aware that I’m trying to push an influence for healing (even if it’s like whistling against a tornado sometimes… but that’s OK, almost. It’s evolution baby).

  But I’m not brushing off or glossing over the crimes, not the recent ones or the historical ones, nor certainly the rage they foster. Es verdad! I am trying to leave it better than I found it, within the tiny circle of my influence. And I am pretty stubbornly attached to my agenda, which I’m hoping will catch on and yes, make it a little better, if such a thing is possible.

  Posted by Kuya on Apr 13, 2007 at 12:40 AM

  Kuya, I always appreciate your thoughts whether we agree or not. Thanks.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 13, 2007 at 3:32 PM

  To the rest of you leftist bigots, I want to share some good news. The Duke case is far more important than the Imus business and that woman who made the false rape charge is going to be sued, the leftist DA who brought the charges to pander to the black community is going to be disbarred and sued, Tony Blair has just issued a forthright condemnation of black culture as it regards crime. Astoundingly good news ! And what happened to Tawanda, “Rev” Al ?  Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are the two biggest racist confidence man in America today.

  Posted by blondemike on Apr 14, 2007 at 12:02 AM

  BM the racist asshole!!!

  ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz

  
  Wake me up when you say something intelligent…..oh wait..that’ll mean I’ll be sleeping forever.

  
  I must applaud BM for showing that even the mentally handicapped can be trained to operate a computer and string some sentences together once in a while. Keep up the good effort little buckaroo!!!!

  Posted by lams712 on Apr 20, 2007 at 3:35 AM

  Do you also post as Natalie and Texas Independent ?
  You seem quite mentally ill.

  Posted by bostonblackie on Apr 24, 2007 at 12:27 AM

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