Dolores Huerta is a hustler. At around 5 foot nothing and 77 years old, she does not look like a force to be reckoned with. And while neither her face nor her name might be familiar, Huerta is one of the most significant rabble-rousers of her time. When Huerta founded the National Farm Workers Association (what later became United Farm… return to article
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Reader Comments (43)Page 1 of 1 pagesNO CHILD LEFT BEHIND BARS!
Dolores Huerta is my all-time personal hero. I had the privilege to meet this wonderful woman and shake her hand a few years back in Laredo, Texas. Thank you for bringing this timely interview with a great lady on an issue of paramount importance to your readership.
In her footsteps and perhaps, today, beside her, a number of us are organizing to fight the cause of imprisoned immigrant children. “Free the Children” is a loosely knit, but highly motivated grassroots group of volunteers who are working to bring attention to the wrongful incarceration of children at the T. Don Hutto Residential Center in Taylor, Texas, 35 miles northeast of Austin.
Hutto is a private-for-profit prison. Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), a for profit company running the majority of privatized prisons in the US, is paid 2.8 million dollars a month (7k per child per month or 84k per child per year) to keep these children behind bars at Hutto.
In the name of national security, innocent women and young children--babies, and toddlers included--with immigration issues are imprisonedyes, in cells, locked down, in uniforms. Its a shameful problem.
I know Hutto is just one small piece of a huge problem, but its a most important piece since it involves the most vulnerable among uspowerless women and children.
The ACLU and others have recently sued for the release of ten children they were able to identify. A federal judge has stated they are likely to prevail. More recently, Jorge Bustamante, a U.N. “rapporteur” (investigator), was to have visited Hutto, but the U.S. Department of Homeland Security shut the door on his visit at the last minute.
Please visit www.myspace.com/free_the_children for more information--registration is free and you can contact our group through this website. www.childrenspeak.net is an additional site devoted to this issue.
Please assist us in whatever way you can to make Hutto known to every American and to the world. We need everyones help to free the children and close Hutto. Together we can prevail.
Posted by gbenacci on May 12, 2007 at 3:52 PM At least Dolores has a sense that Mexico needs to reform its own country/economy so not so many people feel they have to leave.
However, I find it interesting that she focuses solely on the U.S. as being the problem and seemingly bearing all the responsibility for what’s happening or not happening in Mexico. Is there perhaps not some blame to be shared with those in charge in Mexico for all these decades?
Posted by Natalie on May 12, 2007 at 10:14 PM Yes, Natty,
Some blame does accrue on the Mexican political leadership. However, since Roosevelt’s Good Neighbor policy dating from WWII, Mexico’s government has been mostly subordinate to and corrupted by Uncle Sam and his corporate interests, gradually eroding the gains of the Mexican people from the 1917 revolution, the lions share of responsibility does come back to the good ol’ Yewesovay.
The election fraud, mostly dismissed by the powers that be, in the recent Mexican elections are traceable to manipulations by some of the same the same US companies and institutions responsible for fraudulent elections in Florida, Ohio, et al.
Posted by luminous beauty on May 13, 2007 at 11:35 AM I wish that Ms Huerta had given a little more complete answer to the questions about open borders, and the role of the border patrol. All I could gather is that she thinks that we should just back off and let the Mexican government handle all of that.
Posted by JPetersmith on May 13, 2007 at 4:03 PM Corporations, business, technology, etc., are simply the products of human ambition, innovation, and ingenuity. It’s how governments choose to utilize, and how much they deem necessary to interfere with these undeniable forces that determines the quality of life and the amount of opportunity that’s afforded to their citizens --- upper, middle, and lower class.
That’s where Mexico’s leaders have failed. They have taken the easy routes, and allowed either businesses or the drug cartels to buy them off, and the economy’s health and integrity take second chair. Your characterization of Mexican officials as powerless victims only enables them to continue on in the same old rut. Mexico has tons of resources and has the ability and potential to transform itself into a place where Mexicans want to stay and work and live, and even where Americans might want to move to.
Blaming corporations for all your problems is like blaming a car for your injuries when you chose to drive it 90 mph without paying attention and without wearing a seatbelt.
That’s right, I forgot. Whenever the leftist/socialist/collectivist loses, it’s ALWAYS because the more free-market candidate cheated. It’s NEVER because a system that doesn’t interfere with an individual’s ability to excel if they so choose appeals to people’s common sensibilities, hopes and dreams more than a mediocre, state-controlled, economically oppressive and bureaucratically top-heavy one.
The reason people are fleeing Venezuela in droves is NOT because they instinctively sense that their individual economic freedom and happiness/self-fulfillment potential is at great risk, and with a self-declared permanent Chavez reign that this risk will only increase, it’s because they are going forth to spread the word about the great things that are happening in their country, and to urge others to follow the same path.
The reason why people routinely boat from Cuba to Florida and not the other way around is NOT because they expect their lives to be better in the U.S., but simply because once they get here they become so poor and down-trodden that they can’t afford to equip for a return trip.
Everyone wants to come to the U.S. I can’t figure out why. The U.S. sucks, just like CNN.
What’s wrong with people?
Posted by Natalie on May 13, 2007 at 4:25 PM The real problem here is quite manifest. The first post was by gbenacci. It spoke eloquently about the abuse and imprisonment of innocent children. Then some intellectual...diverts the issue to Mexico.
Intellecualizing the abuse by our government for the atrocities that they are committing against innocent children in concentration camps...and putting the blame on Mexico is shallow...and is hardly a humane response.
In the Hutto prison camp in Taylor, TX...there are some 400 detainees...most of which are innocent children. Many of preschool age...in 8’ x 12’ prison cells. These children and their moms are from some 30 countries. Most are legitimate asylum seekers. Others are refugees.
Last Monday...a week ago...the U.N. special investigator for the Human Rights Commission was denied access by Chertoff and ICE to inspect the human rights violations.
Gbenacci made passionate appeal. The pathetic intellectualizing on such issues has failed our country, our values and our humanity. It is no wonder that the elitist racist supremacists rule not only our country but the world.
This is not about Mexico!!! This is about America folks. This is about “liberty and justice” for all.
Wake up and DO something.
Posted by BorderWalker on May 14, 2007 at 7:24 PM Keeping children and their mothers behind bars for no crime is heinous, and exactly how their continued imprisonment serves national security is beyond me. However, presuming they were illegal immigrants, what if they were to be sent back to their country/s of origin? There would certainly be a huge outcry on the grounds that it would be an inhumane decision.
And I’m afraid this is because some, though they may not be willing to say so out loud, do apparently think the solution most conducive to peace and justice is to have a truly open US border. In other words, they want everyone who enters, regardless of the specifics of their arrival, to have the right to stay. And that’s unrealistic.
Sra. Huerta’s lack of definitiveness about whether the border ought to be open should not minimize the significance of the question in our minds. Is the border to be truly open or not? Yes or no?
I suspect most US citizens would agree with me that the border should be a real frontier, with criteria that have to be met before it is allowed to be crossed. That means some can enter and some canât. I canât see how that is an automatically inhumane or victimizing policy. Certainly itâs no different than scores of other countriesâ immigration laws, and the US is by no means the harshest when it comes to dealing with illegals.
I noticed the article described Sra. Huerta as having campaigned against a federal guest-worker program in the past. I’d like to know the specifics of that event, particularly to know what about the program she and her fellow campaigners found objectionable. I do not presume to speak for her, but I know many today oppose guest-worker programs because they can easily be designed to include only a finite term of legal presence, after which the workers would go home. To be honest, I think that’s exactly what the US could use, a guest-worker program that allows people to legally work in the country for a time, after which most would leave and others who qualified could enter and have their own chance to work. Not an open-ended invitation, but a finite stay, similar to a visa used by tourists or “foreign workers” like myself. Perhaps some of them would qualify to stay and become citizens, if the criteria for such were clarified up front and the worker wanted to make application (obviously many would want exactly that). But there should be no presumption of permanent residence, no sense that the US is obligated to say “yes” to everyone who wants to stay.
After all, no one has a ârightâ to go into any country they choose and make it their home. From that perspective, the phrase âimmigrantsâ rightsâ is a misnomer. No nation has a truly open border; if they did, they’d cease to be a defined nation-state. The wish to change one’s nationality does not obligate the citizens or the government of the “desired” country to allow everyone in who wants to enter. Surely all countries, Mexico or Venezuela or Japan or Chad or Holland or any other, has a system in place to allow people to apply to work, study, or maybe gain citizenship. Lots of places are not considered by many to be worth entering, but thatâs beside the point. You can’t just walk in and expect to be welcomed just anywhere, you have to qualify. It doesn’t make sense that a rich country has less of a right to limit who enters and how long they can stay, when a poor country’s government would be no more accepting of illegal immigrants into the nation it governs.
No country in the world, at least one that millions find attractive enough to try to enter above-board or illegally, can be expected to simply open its borders or to ignore illegal entry. The US government has no right to victimize anyone, and its citizens should consider it their personal business to oppose any of their government’s actions that result in it (so much I could say here!), but that is not to say it somehow bears obligation to be the new home for every disadvantaged soul in the world. How on Earth could it be?
Posted by Kuya on May 15, 2007 at 4:09 AM Kuya,
Ms. Huerta is a lifelong activist of the United Farm Workers Union. The union position is that guest worker programs are a union busting tactic that favors the growers. Import cheap labor and you don’t have to pay a living wage to domestic workers. Nonetheless, I know she is keenly sensitive to the problems faced by undocumented and illegal emigrants, the plight of sweat shop workers and those abused by unethical labor contractors. It is a given that the powers that be are going to try and divide and conquer any and all opposition by putting them between a rock and a hard place.
I too have had the great fortune to have met Dolores Huerta. Not at any symposium or seminar, but on the streets of Merced, Ca., standing shoulder to shoulder with other ordinary citizens standing up for justice and freedom for all. I can attest to her incredible dynamism and feisty character. Amazing especially in light of severe health problems she has suffered as the result of police brutality.
Posted by luminous beauty on May 15, 2007 at 9:13 AM Natalie,
Read the freaking article, why don’t you?
The reason 2 million Mexican corn growers have come to the US seeking work is not because they are attracted by the wonders of the ‘American Dream’, but are driven by stark economic necessity. NAFTA has allowed giant corporations, which you thoughtlessly believe are so benign and wonderful, to flood the Mexican markets with cheap government subsidized ag products. Simultaneously, corrupted by the political largesse of those corporations and the US government, the Mexican government, under the leadership of Salinas, Fox and, now, the fraudulently elected Calderon, have practically eliminated tariffs and worked aggressively to undermine what meager protections Mexican farmers and workers once enjoyed.
As far as Cuba goes, it is not remarkable that some Cubans are attracted by the exclusive advantages extended to Cuban economic refugees. However, the vast majority of Cubans are justly proud of the social, political and humanitarian gains made by their revolution, in spite of long-standing crippling economic embargoes and sanctions imposed by the US government, much to the teeth grinding, hair pulling consternation of the Castro-hating esqualidos in Miami.
The wealthy Venezuelans flocking to Miami are certainly not coming here because of any real political persecution or economic suffering imposed by the democratically elected government of Hugo Chavez. The private sector economy in Venezuela is booming and freedom of expression has not been significantly infringed. They, like yourself, are simply conditioned to respond to the word ‘socialism’ with irrational fear and loathing. That, and their all consuming greed for not only great wealth, but unconditional power over the political process as well. Some, because they are afraid of being exposed for, and suffering the consequences of, their corruption and criminality.
Posted by luminous beauty on May 15, 2007 at 10:44 AM “They, like yourself, are simply conditioned to respond to the word âsocialismâ with irrational fear and loathing. That, and their all consuming greed for not only great wealth, but unconditional power over the political process as well. Some, because they are afraid of being exposed for, and suffering the consequences of, their corruption and criminality. “
Socialism is a failure. Escaping socialism is a shared experience wherever it raises its ugly head. As Venezuela loses thousands of highly skilled individuals it too will try to stop them. But like every other example Venezuelan marxism will fail as well.
Posted by texasindependent on May 15, 2007 at 12:28 PM TI,
Your argument is predicated upon the belief that socialists are just too stupid and ignorant to learn from their mistakes. In the case of Venezuela that is demonstrably false, as you may surmize if you make the effort to read and understand with comprehension the following article and its several linked references:
The deepening of Venezuelaâs Bolivarian revolution: why most people donât get it
---Julia Buxton in openDemocracy.net“21st-century socialism is seen as distinct from the “failed” Marxist experiments of the 20th century...”
Also, you are sadly mistaken in believing a gaggle of wealthy oligarchs have any monopoly on technical knowledge. I’m afraid the only skill they really possess is how to manipulate markets to their own advantage. Something the Venezuelan people can certainly live without. The transnational oil giants seem perfectly content to stay on there with only 40% ownership.
Perhaps in the end we will see that Marx was correct when he observed that the capitalists will gladly sell the rope on Tuesday with which they will be hanged come Thursday.
Posted by luminous beauty on May 15, 2007 at 1:39 PM Im finding nuggets of truth in everyones posts. Theres more than enough blame to spread far and wide. Socialism and Marxism are both doomed to failure. And, yes capitalism needs and feeds off the poor. Unions give the poor collective power to offset the power and greed of the corporate/political alliance. The key, it seems to me, is to create and maintain a dynamic tension between opposing groups to maintain equilibrium. When this balance is achieved, the corporations make money and the workers enjoy a fair measure of security and well being as well as the opportunity for upward mobility. When either side becomes too greedy, we have problems.
Were losing what equilibrium we had. America is selling off its infrastructure and privatization is allowing corporate take over and control of functions of government that should remain functions of governmentwater, roads, prisons, military, to name a few. Who profits and who loses under mass privatization? Redistribution of wealth sums it up.
Our government appears to be schizophrenic
The North American Union calls for open borders with Canada and Mexico, yet, were ready to spend billions to fence off the Mexican border. Were building private prisons galore to lock up people who came here to work and are welcomed with open arms by American agriculture and industry, but not by the unions.
The Trans-Texas Corridor is just the opening section of toll roads that will span North America. Containers from China will arrive at Mexican ports to be off loaded by Mexican longshoremen and then trucked to Kansas City by Mexican truckers with no intermediate stops. Why? Could dramatically reduced labor costs be the answer? Which translates to? Who wins; who loses?
The nature of business is to seek the cheapest labor source possible, no matter what. Trade agreements allow the outsourcing of jobs beyond national borders. Who gets hurt? Who benefits most? Is it worth the tradeoff?
The working poor are the pawns in this international trade game. The middle class taxpayer will pay and pay. Dolores, Cesar, and the UFW fought for workers rights many years ago, but the battle continues. The answers arent easy, but, I think we all have to become more acquainted with all the facts. Once again, education is the key to understanding. If we truly understand we can act with conviction and certainty. But, I could be wrong.
Posted by gbenacci on May 15, 2007 at 1:56 PM 21st century socialism is the same as every other form of Marxism. It relies on populism, collectivism, and repression. It rewards the very few and consigns the rest to mediocrity, shortages, and stagnation. It denies economic realities and inevitably results in economic collapse and remains a dismal failure with every “new” implementation.
“Also, you are sadly mistaken in believing a gaggle of wealthy oligarchs have any monopoly on technical knowledge. Im afraid the only skill they really possess is how to manipulate markets to their own advantage.”
Doctors, lawyers, and engineers are the ones leaving Venezuela in droves LB. Hardly non-essential personnel.
Posted by texasindependent on May 15, 2007 at 2:28 PM In the Hutto prison camp in Taylor, TX...there are some 400 detainees...most of which are innocent children. Many of preschool age...in 8 x 12 prison cells. These children and their moms are from some 30 countries. Most are legitimate asylum seekers. Others are refugees.
What’s wrong with these people? Don’t they know America sucks? What are they doing here?
Seriously, I’ve got just as much compassion for these innocent children and their parents as the next person, and if they are being truly mistreated, then I condemn it. If I had the money and/or the power, I would love to help them out somehow. (In fact, I think I’ll go to that website and see if I can make a small difference.) But no country can continue to allow its borders to be erased, and expect to remain the kind of society and economy that so many want to be part of.
Somehow in my mind it’s not making sense to always blame the country that so many are trying to flee to, and forever excuse and apologize for the leadership and the economic systems of the countries from which they are fleeing.
Even if recent NAFTA related events have taken center stage in the politics of immigration, hasn’t the basic allure of a country that offers (relatively) stable economic opportunity and (relative) freedom from corruption been a reality for a long, long time?
I’m sure most Mexicans want their country to more resemble the U.S., in terms of opportunity and a stable economy. I suspect that is the reason for the recent election (or at least very strong showing if you insist he actually lost, LB) of the less socialistic candidate.
If capitalism is so bad, why is it that people are forever traveling toward it, and away from its polar opposite? Why are the fences of capitalistic countries always built in order to keep people out, and the ones in socialistic countries always for keeping people in?
Posted by Natalie on May 15, 2007 at 3:07 PM Read the article, TI.
I’d like to know where you get your information about droves of doctors and engineers leaving Venezuela and what crippling effect it is having upon their economy.
When the managers and corrupt union leaders of <a href="http://www.citgo.com/AboutCITGO/PDVSAprofile.jsp"> PDVSA <a> fomented their work stoppage in ‘02 it was predicted that production would be crippled nigh on to forever if Chavez didn’t submit to their anti-democratic demands, yet within two years oil production had returned to normal levels without their help and in spite of widespread sabotage. There has been a ton of infrastructural development since; highways, hospitals, housing, schools, major expansions of mass transit. Plenty of good paying jobs for engineers. Broad international agreements for technical exchange including China, Iran, the Mercosur countries of SA and the City of London. No sign of it slowing down.
There are far more Venezuelan doctors being graduated every year now from Cuban medical colleges and soon from new med schools in country, dedicated to serving the broadest needs of the whole population, than whatever handful of greedy medicos abandoning Venezuela who have never been particularly keen on providing services to the poor and working classes, anyway.
I’m sure that corporate lawyers aren’t that much of a loss to Venezuelan society. We could certainly get by with a lot fewer in this country.
I believe by leaving and failing to provide rational criticism of genuine errors being made by the government, rather than mere FUD propaganda, the opposition is shooting themselves in the foot as surely as when they foolishly boycotted the ‘05 legislative elections. That seems to be another well-honed skill they possess.
Posted by luminous beauty on May 15, 2007 at 3:23 PM Natalie,
Did you even read the WashPost article I linked to?
Why don’t you apply for a visa to Cuba? Since we’re so free to travel, I’m sure the State Department should be more than willing to allow US citizens to visit just to see how awful conditions there really are.
Oh, that’s right. It’s forbidden.
Maybe you could take a nice vacation in Oaxaca.
Posted by luminous beauty on May 15, 2007 at 3:50 PM Yes, I did read the article, and I’ve not said that the U.S. is blameless. However, It’s their country. They need to grow a spine, put aside all the corruption and kick-backs, stop depending on people working here and sending back money, and start to work on an effective economic system of their own.
There’s any number of good models out there, with the most successful being free-market and positive incentive based. You don’t let corporations have free reign, but you also don’t fail to recognize them as being efficient vital tools with which to improve the standard of living for your citizens. There’s a reason why I can generally buy a new computer every year or two that’s twice as good for half the price—computers are the product of free market research, development, and competition.
I don’t quite understand your Cuba reference. I think the reason we’re restricted from travel to Cuba is because of the economic embargo, not because anyone is afraid of people seeing what a sparkling jewel the Cuban system is and coming home and voting communist.
But wouldn’t it make much more sense for you to move to Cuba, or neo-socialist Venezuela, or exciting, vibrant Oaxaca? I guess I just don’t understand why anyone who seems to so completely despise capitalism would want to live in the evil heart of it.
What’s up with that?
Perhaps a move to Vermont where you can have a socialist representative, and start your revolution from there! Viva, la Bernie!
Posted by Natalie on May 15, 2007 at 8:07 PM Surprizing as it might seem, Natty,
I love my country and wish to see it better than it is. I don’t despise capitalism. I’d like to see genuine capitalism constrained by just regulation instead of the rampant oligopolistic corporate mercantilism and aggressive militarism that currently controls practically all aspects of life in the US and throughout its hegemonic reach.
Why do you think you can tell Mexico, or any other sovereign nation for that matter, what they should do? It seems to me it is precisely this kind of American arrogance and exceptionalism that lies at the root of most of our problems.
Vermont seems to be doing all right without my help. One of the few states with a tradition of endogenous participatory democracy. A tradition that predates the Revolutionary War. Venezuela and Cuba are taking care of business on their own quite well, thank you. I think I should stay where I can do some good.
Bye the bye, Bernie Sanders rocks. We could use another 99 like him in the Senate.
Glad you recognize that corporations have too much power. What do you suggest? Worker owned co-operatives have been shown to be just as innovative, more efficient and much more stable than those controlled by outside investors. A little democratic socialism couldn’t hurt. I don’t see anyone else on the current scene with the cojones, much less the political will, to rein the self-interested bastards in.
Posted by luminous beauty on May 15, 2007 at 10:14 PM Hello luminous beauty,
Thanks for that information, I see Sra. Huerta’s position as a union activist trying to prevent wages from plummeting on the heels of a flood of undocumented laborers. However, that seems to bring more of a muddle to the immigration situation, as also implied by gbenacci’s post of May 15. It very much calls into question exactly how the US ought to respond to the thousands every week who try to enter illegally, in the sense that it’s apparently in the interest of some within US borders to let them come in easily, while at the very same moment it’s directly against the interests of others that they do.Surely it’s in no one’s interest to have such a bizarre set-up as now, where illegal migrants enter with little hinderance (by the way, not just from Latin America; there are huge numbers of people from East and Southeast Asian countries, the Caribbean, former USSR countries, the subcontinent, etc, who take huge risks and/or spend fortunes they don’t have in order to get in) until enough outrage is expressed among the public for there to be yet another amnesty, and a starting all over again of the same cycle. And with incarceration of mothers and kids now part of the “same cycle”, there’s even more impetus to change the f’d up dynamic.
I’m having a hard time figuring out an alternative to “just keep them out” as a conclusion, when the issue of depressed wages becomes part of the discussion along with everything else. Again, the consumers’ interest in low prices appears to be in direct conflict with the wage-earners whose take-home pay will fall with the unchecked entrance of competing laborers (remembering, of course, that those wage-earners are also consumers, who will find it harder to keep food on the table when those wages do fall).
It’s quite a conundrum, and I don’t pretend that a guest-worker program will be a cure-all. It just seems more logical than what’s in place now, which is self-contradictory and unsustainable.
Posted by Kuya on May 16, 2007 at 12:55 AM Kuya,
Yes, it is complicated, isn’t it?
Whatever Congress does directly about immigration/emmigration is just a band-aid, at best. I’m of the opinion that if NAFTA was renegotiated with strong wage/labor and environmental protection provisions, like progressives insisted on in the first place, if the World Bank, the IMF, USAID, the NED were to focus on endogenous development in client nations and drop the neo-liberal non-sense, it would go a long way toward taking the pressure off.
I actually agree with Natalie in this sense; these nations need to grow spines and stand up to the elephant in the parlor. Cuba and Venezuela are two countries that have. You can tell by how they are demonized in the US press.
Posted by luminous beauty on May 16, 2007 at 7:38 AM http://mequieroir.com/
It means WE WANT TO LEAVE....
Two key figures LB.
Emigration from Venezuela has risen 5000 percent since 2000
This website gets over a million hits a month.
Why leave the socialist paradise?
Posted by texasindependent on May 16, 2007 at 8:33 AM TI,
There is a well known mathematical theory that there are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can’t.
That is only one figure. And as far as I can tell, you just pulled it out of your ass. According to the 2006 CIA World Factbook, net emigration for Venezuela is neutral.
Venezuela isn’t a socialist paradise. It is a mixed economy. Private sector economic growth continues at about 9% of GDP.
Why are so many esqualidos flocking to Miami? I’ve already answered that. FUD works.
You are living proof of that.
Posted by luminous beauty on May 16, 2007 at 11:15 AM TI,
I haven’t thanked you for turning me on to the term ‘puñetero’. It seems in the current context it may well be construed as applying to yourself.
Please don’t be dismayed. I suspect you might agree with Marx on this one point, “Philosophy is to reality as masturbation is to sex.”
On the other hand, consider the words of George Carlin, “Masturbation is safe sex with someone you love.”
Posted by luminous beauty on May 16, 2007 at 11:32 AM Its a Venezuelan run and operated website LB. The figures are theirs not mine.
http://mequieroir.com/ .....Translation once again WE WANT TO LEAVE...one million hits a month.
Venezuela is rapidly becoming a “workers paradise” the nationalization of enterprises, the closure of media outlets that don’t follow the party line, the currency manipulation, the outlawing of opposition political parties, the unnatural price controls and regulation, the seizure of private property, and the attacks on religious organizations. Its all a pattern that has been followed by every other Marxist crackpot.
Since you have resorted to personal attacks I will take my victory lap now. In the words of the great philosopher Homer Simpson.....................
WOO HOOO IN YOUR FACE .......lol
Its not your fault..... You left the comforts of middle class existence for the confines of a second rate liberal arts college. Got your exposure to radical ideology and sucked it down like a fish on a lure. Without any real world experience to balance the cracked theology you were spoon fed you fell for the party line. Keep on rationalizing the failures of your core beliefs I find it amusing.
Posted by texasindependent on May 16, 2007 at 12:34 PM TI,
What personal attacks?
You make such unwarranted assumptions.
My college education was in both fine arts and engineering and it was first rate (UC system, even if I wasn’t that great of a student). My real education is mostly autodidactic, on-the-job and broadly eclectic.
I’ve never been spoon-fed anything in my life. I’ve been on my own since I was 18. I’ve lived the conventional suburban life, in intentional communities and on the street. In the heart of busy cities and surrounded by solitary wilderness. From California to New England. From Arizona to Idaho. With brief excursions into Canada and Central America.
My work history is mostly in agriculture and food processing with stints in manufacturing, small shop operation and graphic design, et al. From picking fruit to welding to cattle ranching to collision tech to dairy tech to printing and publishing to operating heavy equipment to watch-making and repair to cutting firewood to forestry to fire control to mechanic to machinist to warehouse manager to plant supervisor and much else. I have always preferred to work where the rubber meets the road. I don’t like offices, but I’ve worked in them.
If that isn’t real experience, I’d like to know what is.
I’ll stack my hard won direct spiritual awareness against your second-hand theological beliefs anytime.
It is only from a lifetime of experience and personal struggle that I have come to recognise the hypocritical and duplicitous nature of conventional ‘American’ political ideology within the manufactured and unnaturally narrow Liberal/Conservative, Tweedledum/Tweedledee phony dichotomy and how damaging and demeaning it is to the lives of ordinary folks. I’m not impressed by any ideology of any stripe, but by what works for the benefit of real human beings, not faceless corporations or heartless financial institutions.
I don’t find your intransigent self-limiting ignorance amusing at all. It’s merely pathetic.
Sorry.
Posted by luminous beauty on May 16, 2007 at 2:51 PM TI,
Name me one political party that has been outlawed in Venezuela.
What private property has been ‘seized’? Fallow lands falsely claimed as latifundio property without legal title have been opened to resettlement, while thousands of titles have been given to individual families living on public land.
Nothing has been nationalized that wasn’t nationalized previous to the failed neo-liberal policies that made a basket case of Venezuela before Chavez. Fair compensation has been made in every case.
Richard Nixon imposed price controls. Was he a failed Marxist?
What currency manipulation?
No religious organizations have been attacked. Individual clergy have been criticized and deservedly so. Chavez has met with the Pope. Twice. An espionage operation fronting as a religious mission has been exposed. Opus Dei operates clandestinely, as is their wont, without persecution.
RCTV, which you so quaintly describe as ‘not following the party line’ not only advocated, but actively collaborated in fomenting, planning and directing a violent coup d’etat against the popular and democratically elected government. With the full support and knowledge of the USDoS and CIA, I might add. Can you imagine what would have happened if something like that had happened, say, with CBS against George Bush. You can bet your baby booties a bunch of execs, editors and journalists would now be languishing in some Gitmo-like limbo. Nothing like that happened to RCTV. Chavez has only refused to renew their license to broadcast over the public air waves. Well within the traditional legal framework of Venezuela and for just cause. They are still free to send their signal via cable and satellite. No other private media has suffered in the least. No journalists imprisoned. No permanent state ordered shut downs of media outlets. Nada.
Posted by luminous beauty on May 16, 2007 at 3:41 PM Still taking my victory lap LB.
You spread the party line like a good girl but you haven’t come up with one single factual piece of information yet.
Posted by texasindependent on May 17, 2007 at 1:02 PM TI,
Are you claiming the CIA World Factbook is stuff just pulled out of the air?
What references do you have that gross Venezuelan emigration has increased by 5000% in the last decade and a half. I could find nothing on the website you cited to that effect. Just a sales pitch. We know how factual those are, don’t we?“We Want to Leave” and a claim of a million hits a month. What kinds of facts are those? Really?
What political parties have been outlawed?
What factual evidence do you have that legally owned private has been seized without fair compensation nor due process?
What religious institutions have been attacked?
What currency manipulations have the Venezuelan government engaged in?
Please explain? If any of the statements I have made in my last post are non-factual, please give corrections and references.
I confess that I made a factual error when I said private sector growth is ~9%.
It is actually 10.3%
Here is the url if you don’t know how to click on a link. They are those blue high-lighted thingies.
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2297
Posted by luminous beauty on May 17, 2007 at 3:32 PM I find it curious that LB is willing to defend the kinds of things that are being attempted and carried out by Chavez, things that if proposed here in this country would have nearly everyone in the streets, and might even be enough to get Republicans to march.
The power grabbing, the media shut-downs, the huge ownership and monetary policy changes being unilaterally imposed by Chavez, and of course the most offensive and unbelievable of all, the assumption of permanent presidential status by his majesty himself.
To all this the fringe left in this country cheers, or gives nodding approval. Of course they would be up in arms if anything like this was attempted here, unless of course the President was some Green party quasi-commie.
But still, no moves planned to Venezuela or Cuba.
Perhaps Bernie Sanders’ buddy said it best:
“We should all be concerned about the direction President Chavez is taking his country,” Sen. Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.), chairman of the Senate Appropriations foreign operations subcommittee, said in a statement this week. “Any leader who tries to tighten his grip on power by destroying the institutions of democracy, curtailing press freedom and using his office to intimidate pro-democracy opponents is setting in motion a dangerous process with potentially ominous consequences.”
“It is imperative that Venezuela authorities protect the right to freedom of speech, particularly in moments of political polarization and that they send clear message of rejection to any attack to reporters, opening investigations of these attacks”, said Amnesty International in their communique.
This site has a kind of La Resistance look and feel to it that may actually appeal to luminous. It should be noted that 70% of Venezuelans oppose the closure of RCTV, including 40% of Chavez supporters.
Posted by Natalie on May 17, 2007 at 3:36 PM I think it’s a little pre-mature and misleading to rely on statistics from the CIA factbook, or a pro-Chavez outlet like venezuelanalysis. I would imagine that the factbook statistics are provided by the Chavez regime, but I’m not really sure about that.
Oil prices are up, and so Chavez is able now to buy votes and hide in his money pile. However, let’s put aside economic statistics, which will take a nose-dive if the price of oil goes down, and look at the larger picture.
My and even Pat Leahy’s impression is that press freedoms are being curtailed in Venezula. Chavez is attempting to make himself President for life, or at least a long, long, time.
When the closure of RCTV eventually starts to expand to other press outlets that are anything but gingerly critical of the king being silenced, and to the Internet, and the economy goes into the toilet when oil prices fall or everyone starts riding bicycles like the left wants us to do, people may start to realize they should vote against Chavez and his self-serving short-sighted policies.
But wait.....I’m sorry, that option is no longer available. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.
Posted by Natalie on May 17, 2007 at 4:11 PM Natalie,
Every source that agrees with you is true and every source that disagrees with you is false? Your argumentum ad verecundiam style is getting to be beyond tedious. The notion that the CIA is working hand in glove with the Chavez administration is amusing though.
The reason so many Venezuelans are up in arms about RCTV losing its broadcast license has little to do with freedom of expression. They are afraid of missing their favorite novelas.
Not to worry though. The government has recently published its plans for revamping Channel 2’s format and they will be transmitted via the wonders of syndication.
If CBS fomented, promoted and directed a violent coup d’etat against the Chimpster, I’d bet you’d be hitting the streets.
I challenge you to answer any of the questions I posed to TI. With facts, not opinions.
Oh, that’s right, I almost forgot. You cannot tell the difference.
Chavez cannot unilaterally expand term limits. The legislature or a public petition has to propose a constitutional amendment which has to be approved by plebiscite.
Funny about that AI thing. I find that quote all over opposition websites, but nowhere at Amnesty’s. Think they could be making it up?
Oil prices plunging? Oh, yeah. Any day now…
Posted by luminous beauty on May 17, 2007 at 5:30 PM My apologies,
I finally found that AI communique. In Spanish.
Still, RCTV will be allowed to broadcast on cable and satellite
Posted by luminous beauty on May 17, 2007 at 5:46 PM Yeah, and Amnesty International is not alone. There are numerous human and press freedom organizations that are not supportive of the trend in Venezuela. Heck, when Pat Leahy speaks out against a fellow socialist, you know that fellow’s gone too far.
Only two countries remain ‘not free’: Venezuela and eternal media enemy Cuba. Since 2002 Venezuela’s score has plummeted 30 points (on a 100-point scale), a greater drop than any other country in the world. The country’s political polarization and pressure from President Hugo Chavez’s regime prevent domestic media from serving their proper role as society’s watchdog. Journalists operate in an atmosphere in which legal and physical attacks are increasingly arbitrary in nature. The nonrenewal of opposition television station RCTV’s broadcasting license is yet another signal to media outlets that dissent from the government line carries substantial risks.
Freedom of the press goes hand in hand with the ability of the population to understand and participate in their country’s political system, and to arrive at a proper judgment that might just go against the grain of the party line presented by a state-run media outlet. It doesn’t bode well for Venezuela that it’s one of the few purple patches in the hemisphere. (see “map of press freedom” linked at the top right of the source of the above snippet.
Posted by Natalie on May 17, 2007 at 9:08 PM Natty,
Thanks for the pastiche of opinion. You are as predictable as the sun going down.
You are just touching the tip of the iceberg. I can find hundreds of hyperbolic phony news articles full of ranting, hair pulling, hand-wringing polemic about what an evil, brutal dictator that Chavez guy is. He is the demon d’jour in the US press after Ahmadinejad and everybody’s favorite fall guy ol’ Fidel hisself. What bunk!
Here are some facts:
“RCTV… played a leading role… in instigating and supporting the 2002 aborted two-day coup against President Chavez.
“In the days leading up to April 11, 2002… RCTV suspended regular programming replacing it with anti-Chavez… propaganda… and calling on the Venezuelan people to take to the streets on that day they knew in advance had been scheduled for the coup.
“On April 10, one day before the coup, General Nestor Gonzales… on the… corporate… media… demanded Hugo Chavez step down from office or be forcibly removed… following the coup, the commercial media revealed their involvement… military and civilian coup leaders appeared on-air to thank the corporate media… stating how important their participation was to… the plot.
“It was… revealed the… [criminal dictator]… Pedro Carmona had used the facilities of Gustavo Cisneros’ Venevision as a “bunker” or staging area base of operations… in flagrant violation of the law.
“...it’s also known a managing producer of [RCTV’s] El Observer news program testified to the Venezuelan National Assembly that he… got orders… from RCTV’s owner… “No information on Chavez, his followers, his ministers, and all others” was to be allowed on-air… the corporate media falsely reported Hugo Chavez had resigned when, in fact, he’d been forcibly removed… they were told in advance and were part of the scheme.”
“...On April 13, when hundreds of thousands of Chavez supporters took to the streets, the corporate media TV stations… broadcast old movies and cartoons like nothing of importance was happening. Even when the coup was aborted… it got no coverage on corporate-run TV… state television was taken off the air… until Chavez supporters took over the station and began broadcasting real information… after the coup...”
Go read The whole article . I double-dip dare ya.
In other news:
Chavez Approval 65%, Despite 70% Rejection of TV Channelâs Non-Renewal
Posted by luminous beauty on May 18, 2007 at 10:14 AM Now, I already know what you’re going to say, Natty. That the reporting by VenezuelaAnalysis is without credibility because they are pro-Chavez. You’ve already said it, but redundancy is one of your endearingly cute little character traits. Well, I say that anti-Chavez sources are without credibility because they rely on fear-mongering in the absence of any factual reality.
The simple truth is, the facts are on Chavez’ side. No amount of ideological FUD can change the fact that Chavez has kept his political promises to an extent far beyond any other democratically elected leader in recent history and they are working for the benefit of the vast majority of the Venezuelan people. Even for the oligarchist anti-democratic opposition. If they would just pull their heads out of their beFUDdled asses.
Posted by luminous beauty on May 18, 2007 at 10:39 AM Yes the facts are against Chavez..Thanks for admitting that.
1 Venezuelan Bolivar (VEB) = 0.0004652 US Dollar (USD)
http://www.oanda.com/convert/classic
Thats sad...Even before EL Diablo overthrew the elected government I remember way back in the 90’s the bolivar was worth 300 to the dollar.
So in effect Chavez has devalued his currency to the point it is not worth the paper it is printed on.....Much like 21st century socialism.
Posted by texasindependent on May 18, 2007 at 1:34 PM Hey! Fellow Posters,
I just have to compliment everyones written and intellectual abilities. Im totally impressed with the talent thats been drawn to this forum. However, its not lost on me that all the time and energy thats been expended in this discussion could have been used to strike a blow against some of the horrendous conditions that exist right here in the USA. Please consider putting your intellect, writing abilities, computer skills, and spare time to work helping the downtrodden in every city, town, and hamlet in America.
Consider the Private Prison Industry; rail against the privatization of water. Fight against toll roads that are forms of double taxation and the selling of Americas infrastructure. How about the border wall that will cost $7M per mileHalliburton is bidding. Texas border cities are boiling mad. Could you help?
Please consider helping your fellow citizens. I would love to see your considerable gifts become a force for change. If you are already engaged in the good fight, Id be thrilled to know how youre engaged.
Posted by gbenacci on May 18, 2007 at 8:38 PM OK I read the “article” LB, and assuming that the clearly leftist opinion writer’s facts are correct, perhaps Chavez IS justified in shutting down RCTV.
However, that’s just one side of the story. I’m not willing to accept it as final any more than you would accept something from Foxnews or the WSJ.
It would appear that RCTV is being unable to even present its case in court, and it would also appear that Chavez has already stacked, or has at least already intimidated that court.
We’ll keep an eye on Chavez, and we’ll see if this action against RCTV expands to other media and to the Internet. We’ll see if Chavez copies his new sole mate’s behavior when it comes to satellite dishes, which no doubt will be in increasing demand after May 27th, or whatever that date is.
I’ll try to remember this thread, and if events warrant, on either side, I’ll post updates relating to press and media freedom or lack thereof in Venezuela, along with the status of the freedom of the people there to vote freely and regularly for or against their leadership.
Posted by Natalie on May 19, 2007 at 4:58 PM It’s becoming painfully evident that Chavez will not be content to limit his media mediocrity measures to RCTV.
Now, he’s suing CNN for poorly placed graphics, and threatening another Venezuelan TV station over poor music choice. Message to any journalist or any remaining non state-controlled media outlet: Don’t even think about putting anything out that could be remotely construed as being critical of the Chavez regime.
Venezuela said Monday it was filing charges against US cable network CNN for linking President Hugo Chavez to Al-Qaeda, and against a Venezuelan TV network for encouraging Chavez’s assassination.
Posted by Natalie on May 29, 2007 at 10:58 AM The reason so many Venezuelans are up in arms about RCTV losing its broadcast license has little to do with freedom of expression. They are afraid of missing their favorite novelas.
Apparently, they really love their soap operas down there.
Susan Lucci would kill for crowds like these, five days running!
Did Hugo jump the shark? I guess it’s a lesson never to underestimate the appeal and addictive power of the soaps, as even I remember a time when missing DOOL was like a living hell.
Posted by Natalie on Jun 2, 2007 at 12:41 AM After investigation, Reporters Without Borders condemns Chavez’s action against RCTV.
Posted by Natalie on Jun 11, 2007 at 2:08 PM MARACAIBO, Venezuela: Politics penetrated a South American soccer championship when thousands of Venezuelan soccer fans rose to their feet and loudly chanted “Freedom!” in a clear affront to President Hugo Chavez.....
.......About half the crowd of 40,000 appeared to join in the chants, which filled the stadium for about three minutes.......
.......U.S. head coach Bob Bradley has said Venezuelan organizers have welcomed his team warmly despite Chavez’s hostile relationship with Washington......
But pro-government advertising seems to be everywhere at the tournament.
At each of the nine stadiums, pictures of Chavez are displayed prominently under giant banners like the one in Maracaibo reading “We’re building the motherland.”
Amazing what soap opera withdrawl can do to people.
One thing nice about living in a country that has big pictures of its leader everywhere—you know at least somebody really cares!
Posted by Natalie on Jul 1, 2007 at 5:08 PM CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez threatened on Monday to close or take over any private school that refuses to submit to the oversight of his socialist government as it develops a new curriculum and textbooks.
“Society cannot allow the private sector to do whatever it wants,” said Chavez, speaking on the first day of classes.
All schools, public and private, must admit state inspectors and submit to the government’s new educational system, or be closed and nationalized, with the state taking responsibility for the education of their children, Chavez said.
A new curriculum will be ready by the end of this school year, and new textbooks are being developed to help educate “the new citizen,” said Chavez’s brother and education minister Adan Chavez, who joined him a televised ceremony at the opening of a public school in the eastern town of El Tigre.
The president’s opponents accuse him of aiming to indoctrinate young Venezuelans with socialist ideology. But the education minister said the aim is to develop “critical thinking,” not to impose a single way of thought.
Why am I getting the feeling that Hugo really isn’t comfortable with anyone having another POV? It’s just easier this way, don’t you see?
Posted by Natalie on Sep 18, 2007 at 2:55 AM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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