Page 1 of 1 pages
“One out of 60 U.S. military personnel serving in the Gulf War theater of operations were contractors; in the Iraq War by late 2006 that ratio was by some counts almost one to one.”
Really? One to one, REALLY? I would love to see real figures of how many US soldiers are in Iraq and how many contractors are there.
Posted by wolf on May 22, 2007 at 11:43 AM
“Wolf” - Given the secrecy and lack of oversight under which most contractors in Iraq work, a true number is impossible to get. However, the Washington Post’s Renae Merle reported in December that around 100,000 contractors were in Iraq, at a time when there were roughly 140,000 US troops there. This was a dramatic increase from the Gulf War, when only about 9200 contractors were in the theater of operation. So as you can tell, it may not be exactly a one-to-one ratio (though some estimates are higher) but still a stunningly large number.
Posted by wintermute on May 23, 2007 at 5:21 AM
wintermute - thanks for the update. I find it incredible that there may be 100,000 contractors on the ground in Iraq. I have posted in a link that seems to be congruent with your assertion above. I am amazed that this is (apparently) not well known public information. Thanks again!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/04/AR2006120401311.html
Posted by wolf on May 23, 2007 at 7:41 AM
You gotta hand it to Bush & Co., they’re f’n geniuses at avoiding limits on their actions. If as alleged almost half of the personnel in Iraq are mercenaries rather than sworn troops (reflecting off the exchange between wintermute and wolf above), then that’s 1000s of operatives who basically don’t have to concern themselves at all with congressional oversight, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, or even what little independent journalism still remains that might have a prayer of scrutinizing them.
Well, they’ve obviously always wanted a free hand, unencumbered by pesky checks and balances; this is another facet.
Posted by Kuya on May 27, 2007 at 9:19 PM
The latest figures I’ve seen indicate that there are 150,000 US military personel in Iraq, and at least 126,000 contractors of which approximately 48,000 are PMC’s or private military contractors.
These are stunning numbers and it should also be noted that the official discussions of withdrawal from Iraq, when they have occured at all, never mention the PMC’s.
This story is among the very most important of the many important stories that need our attention right now.
For some powerful background on the miserable politcal scene in the US I suggest that those with access to a high speed internet connection google up Adam Curtis, the British documentarian, and you can watch his “The Power of Nightmares” and “The Century of the Self”. These two multi-part works give the viewer an excellent sketch of the difficulties facing our modern day “democracy” as we suffer through a maze of manipulation woven by the mass media tentacles of the miltary industrial congressional complex (Eisenhower’s original designation).
The two documentaries, despite their critical acclaim, have yet to reach wider distribution in the US for the obvious reason that they are considered anathema to the American corporate elite.
Check them out by all means.
Posted by koolwill on May 28, 2007 at 5:41 PM
I guess it shouldn’t come as a surprise to read the above article. The Shrub has no concept of Duty Honor and Country, nor does he have any intention of being bound by such an old scrap of paper as the Constitution.
His promise to pprotect and defend the Constitution can be equated to a small child promising not to get in trouble again; meaningless 30 minutes later.
Hopefully, enough Americans have realized that Faux News is a toady to the neocon movement. Just as they have realized that Duhbya is the most clueless President in modern times.
But will any of them look beyond sound bites and campaign slogans in the next election?
Posted by farmer on May 29, 2007 at 12:56 PM
I agree on the need to get realistic about “solving” the Iraq problem. The trouble is, we are hampered by a leadership that is totally unrealistic in their thinking about Iraq.
First, a bluff campaign was tried. This allowed Iraq to get rid of most of its secret materials, if they actually had any, which is debatable now. We all know about the poison gas. I am speaking of the nuclear arsenal.
Then a series of lies about the need to invade Iraq.
Then a civilian, with no war planning experiance at all was allowed to override the best war planners in the Army.
The list goes on, almost without end.
The “surge” which was supposed to secure Iraq has only increased the number of military and civilian deaths in Iraq. Civilians are going to die in any real war. This is a given. One that is difficult for too many Americans to accept. Military deaths are also a given. But when there is no real plan for dealing with a situation, other than send more troops, it is all but criminal.
Our country attempted to install a modified copy of our system of government in Iraq. People who had lived all their life under one dictator or another were suddenly told that they were free and that democracy was in effect.
Had we had people on the ground with some kind of realistic plan, maybe, just maybe, things would have been different.
Instead we had folks with no clue as what to do. Led by a President who had no clue.
Those who do not know/remember history are doomed to repeat it.
Posted by farmer on May 30, 2007 at 7:58 AM
Farmer,
We
Posted by whattheheck on May 30, 2007 at 11:42 AM
I agree with some of Sen Kerrys’ opinions.
BUT…Japan and Germany were nations that went to war against us. Now we are faced with an irregular force, without uniforms and no real national sponsor. Granted Syria, Iran and even Pakistan turn a blind eye at best and offer support at worst.
With an oil patch President and Vice President, no real effort will be made on alternative fuels. Remember when they had to restore funding (that had just been cut) so Shrub could have a photo-op, showing his support of alternative fuels? Wonder if those funds have since been re-cut? Cut so that his tax cuts for the fat cats could be paid for.
My big gripe was the revelation that WH insiders were telling each other that Iraq was a quagmire, all the while proclaiming that all was well and we just had to have patience. They knew they had a big problem and chose to hope it would solve itself.
And then, they have the nerve to say that the Democrat’s are not supporting the troops. Even after Walter Reed, they accuse the Democrat’s.
It would really harm military morale to cut and run. The military needs to feel some sort of victory…besides an empty declaration of Mission Accomplished.
The only way I see that coming close to happening is to pull all the troops back into Baghdad and totally clamp down. Then, after 3 months of no car bombings, then they could feel that they had accomplished a mission. Trying to ‘pacify’ a whole country, while refraining from civilian’s being killed/wounded is all but impossible
Posted by farmer on May 30, 2007 at 4:07 PM
A relevant story…
Private Guards Weak Link in Security
Forbes online: 15.29.07, 7:13 PM ET
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/05/29/ap3767693.html
..............................................................................
And even if it is entirely late in the day for this reminder, there were many, many of us who thought and said way back in 2003 that they were entering a quagmire. This was predicted because we thought Bush and Co. were being unrealistic. In fact, they have engaged in what amounts to magical thinking, such as 1) prediction that their loftily phrased goals would be enough to captivate the locals’ imaginations despite the disconnection of those goals from facts on the ground: Bush/Rumsfeld imagined that virtually all Iraqis would be so relieved at the ouster of Saddam Hussein that their antipathy for rivals in other ethnic factions would be trivial and that they’d quickly unite behind a US-fostered new government, 2) unrealistic confidence derived from their vision of the US as a special, almost ahistorical case among the nations of the world: Bush/Rumsfeld imagined that because of the mystique of being “the only superpower” and “leaders of the free world”, they could count on broad international support for two separate and entirely different wars. They also counted in part upon the sympathy the world had for the US following 9/11. They thought the currency we had from having halted the spread of militaristic nationalism in WWII and militaristic socialism after that, added to their supposed superpowerful invincibility, would carry world opinion and more importantly, convince enough governments to send appreciable troops and cash, and 3) unchecked hubris regarding the prowess of US armed forces: Bush/Rumsfeld totally underestimated the enemy. They undershot the number of troops that would be required to not only beat the enemies to a standstill in BOTH Afghanistan AND Iraq BUT (more to the point) what it would need to then OCCUPY those two lands, by far the tougher job, and in places that were filled to the brim with armed, experienced fighters who would predictably hate the living guts of the occupiers. They imagined supernaturally effective fighters who could carry on to victory even without proper kit, without sufficient training or even enough ammo, and as we’ve learned too vividly already, without enough boots on the ground to properly support each other and hold onto areas they’d driven the enemy out of. Their mindset was revealed in part by mission handles like “Shock and Awe”. Absurd.
The wish by some to quickly and unilaterally bail out is understandable even if it would be poor strategy. People want to get the fuck out, and wish they could turn the clock back to before the time when they’d been told Iraqi WMDs could be deployed in under an hour. We can say it’s irrational, but it is still easy to understand as a reaction to a seemingly insoluble situation, one that is costing billions of dollars and thousands of lives but one that few are convinced will ever vindicate the magical ideas noted above.
No wonder people want to turn the clock back.
Posted by Kuya on May 31, 2007 at 2:02 AM
Farmer, Kuya,
We
Posted by whattheheck on May 31, 2007 at 9:29 AM
That the next President will have one hell of a job in cleaning up Duhbyas’ messes is very clear.
And the Democrats have no claim to being right…and I am a Democrat. Really hard to be proud of that, in light of all that has happened.
We need to get out of Iraq, but it must be done with some sense of accomplishing something. Besides a photo-op announcement.
Now, three years too late, we are being told that the military commanders are trying to start talking to the insurgents.
Shrub has too much pride and too little sense of the real world to have done that when it could have avoided some of the death and maiming.
And sadly, most American politicians have no real understanding of different cultures around the world.
Hell, the Shrub had to have his daddy send folks to Austin, when he was supposed to Governor, just to tell him what he should have learned in college. And he promptly ignored all that didn’t fit with his “vision” of the world. As we have seen.
Posted by farmer on May 31, 2007 at 6:35 PM
Framer,
In Illinois to vote in the primary you must first declare a party. For most of my life, since I am a fiscal conservative, I have taken the Republican one.
I never have considered myself to be of either party and often cross lines, but I have become increasingly cynical regarding our voting process, our claim to have a representative form of government and accepting that our candidates truly regard themselves as
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 1, 2007 at 5:36 AM
whattheheck, ya pretty well nailed it.
Unless and until we remove big money from the political process, we are going to have more of the same.
(And in Texas, it is just about the same; you can only vote in one primary. Your voter registration card is stamped with that Party, but you can vote for any Party in the main election.)
If political donations were limited to $2000 and only from registered voters, eliglible to vote for that candidate, we’d go a long way towards removing some of the problems.
Plus, limit all lobbyist’s to providing information rather than money; with real penalties for breaking these rules, i.e., prison time and not at some Federal tennis camp.
This would force the candidates to debate the issues, rather than hiring analysts to tell them what to say. Plus we wouldn’t have so many TV and radio ads that most folks turn off or just ignore.
All politicians say that they are for ethics reform and introduce and occassionally pass legislation for that purpose…but without a real penalty.
Just as Tom Delay gets censured by the House and promptly announces that he has been completely vindicated. Then he is finally forced to retire and has to go back to Texas and try and spend all the bribe money he still has, laughing at us all the way.
TXU (eletric utility that has really jacked rates up) just spent 8 million dollars to avoid having laws passed that would limit their ability to gouge the consumer. And OUR legislator’s (the ones elected to represent US) took the money and sided with TXU. Then tell us that it is someone elses fault that the bill didn’t pass.
Posted by farmer on Jun 1, 2007 at 6:00 AM
Farmer,
You mentioned Tom Delay
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 2, 2007 at 12:24 PM
whattheheck
Glad that you didn’t fall victim to the “allure” of being close to “power”. Not all can ithstand that temptation.
Tommy keeping his pension is one example of rules/laws that need to be changed.
But, we have to wait for a politician to introduce a bill with those changes and get enough support to pass it and override a veto.
Similar to waiting for a nice day in Hell.
The alternative is calling a Constitutional Convention. But that would bring out every kook that wanted their own pet peeve included.
Far too many people have given up on the political process; and no wonder.
But then we get a “President” such as we have now, one who lies almost as a force of habit. One who wants to usurp the powers of Congress and ignore the needs of the real people in this country.
He will mention those needs, like reforming Social Security. But once mentioned, he promptly ignores doing anything.
All the recent corporate scandals that we have seen exposed, and his idea is to privatize SS. Yeah, I can see some greedy fellow, looking at all that money and thinking I could party hearty on this money before they knew it was missing.
And this country is raising a bumper crop of greedy fellows.
I call myself a moderate liberal. I believe in welfare, but only for the truly needy, not as a lifestyle.
Folks who need a hand, give them a hand, but require some public service type work in return. No work, no help. Their choice.
Jails and prisons are supposed to be places that one never wants to go to. And if one goes, it needs to be unpleasant enough that one never wants to return.
I work and expect everyone else to work.
As a farmer, I know the need for immigrant labor. Take all immigrants off welfare and out of schools and the immigration problem would be half solved.
The case of the TB patient showed how effective our security is at the border.
We do have a valid need to have some idea of who is in our country, why and where. Most other countries have such controls.
I’d like to see a system where I could call an agent and ask for 10 workers planting and picking a crop between May and July. The agent would line up some prescreened persons with ID cards, give them bus passes (my cost) and send them here. In July, I would give them their final pay and tickets back to the border. If one gets hurt, it is my expense, just like with a citizen worker.
As for a path to citizenship, they’d have to take their chances in a lottery. There is a limit on how many people our economy can support.
Posted by farmer on Jun 2, 2007 at 1:51 PM
Farmer,
You call yourself a
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 3, 2007 at 8:43 AM
Just to touch upon the topic once again
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 3, 2007 at 8:46 AM
Since everybody has had a chance to see what Bush represents, at heart, I have spoken with many conservatives who feel as you do.
People like you and I could solve most of the problems facing our country.
But neither of us can get the millions of dollars to run for office.
America is relying too much on outsourcing to save a few bucks.
If corporations would rein in executive pay and benefits, they would have the money to expand/update their factories.
But the labor unions, egged on by management excesses, have all but priced their members out of work.
I have no problem with someone like Bill Gates making the big bucks. I do have a problem with someone getting paid millions of dollars just to sign papers. Or, in some cases, being fired for cause and getting multi-million dollar settlements.
Americans have gotten too accustomed to a high standard of living with too many labor saving devices. There is way too much greed in too many people in positions of power.
The framers of the Constitution had no evident intent in creating a class of political elites, but both parties have conspired to do just that.
As you said, things can’t continue as they are without one heck of a high price being paid by the citizens.
Posted by farmer on Jun 3, 2007 at 11:29 AM
The professional politicians of both parties are in sync with big business.
This bipartisan, joint venture has created a monster which operates on the same model:
They make their own rules, codes of conduct and
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 4, 2007 at 7:01 AM
As the Preamble states, more or less, When Government ceases to be responsive to the needs of the citizens, it becomes the duty of those citizens to throw off that Government.
This cannot be taken lightly. Frankly it scares me.
I hope that the next President will begin to turn things around. And talk about a massive task!
We have to extract our troops from Iraq, without destroying their morale.
Health care—I had my first kidney stone at age 61(last year) and had to go to the emergency room, as it was after office hours.
No medical insurance and it wound up costing me $4200—-just to get a prescription, not any treatment, just pain pills.
Terrorism, even allowing for the Shrub using that issue for his own ends, is something that will have to be dealt with.
Social Security will have to be reformed somehow, but not by privatizing.
Immigration has to be dealt with.
The energy situation MUST be addressed and dealt with.
While the EPA has its place, it does carry things too far. But this administration wants to let business have its way with our world, and that can’t be allowed.
It will take one hell of a good person to deal with all this and keep our country moving.
The fact that a Conservative and a Liberal, even though both are moderates, can find some common ground is the best sign.
There is hope. Although I am wondering if that light I see at the end of the tunnel is daylight or the Southbound Fast Freight.
Posted by farmer on Jun 4, 2007 at 9:52 AM
No one candidate stands out for me,either. I had hopes for Bill Richardson, mainly because he has proven diplomatic and leadership skills. But will his persona carry him through?
The Radical Islamists will be a thorny issue for anyone. Because they won’t compromise. And we can’t very well kill all of them. That will only sow more seeds of hatred.
As to the different nations coming together and working to minimize the Radicals effectiveness, that seems our best hope. And that will require a leader who understands that the rest of the world is not just like us.
It is really a pleasure to exchange views with someone that is willing to accept life’s realities, even as we both want to change some of those realities.
And I am finding more folks like yourself here in Van Zandt County, long a GOP bastion.
Now, if everybody will just take the time and effort to find out what is really happening rather than relying on politicians sound bites, we will all be a little better off.
We have some hard times ahead of us. The Shrubs’ tax cuts and lax treatment of the oil companies coupled with his blank check spending spree will take many years to pay off.
The taxes that that pay off will require could be offset considerably, if the fraud and waste could be at least slowed down if not eliminated.
Posted by farmer on Jun 4, 2007 at 6:22 PM
Farmer,
I am enjoying our conversations too. (One of these days I expect to be cut out of this topic
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 6, 2007 at 5:59 AM
I noticed another article along these same lines today:
<blockquote>Defeat’s Killing Fields
By PETER W. RODMAN and WILLIAM SHAWCROSS
SOME opponents of the Iraq war are toying with the idea of American defeat. A number of them are simply predicting it, while others advocate measures that would make it more likely. Lending intellectual respectability to all this is an argument that takes a strange comfort from the outcome of the Vietnam War. The defeat of the American enterprise in Indochina, it is said, turned out not to be as bad as expected. The United States recovered, and no lasting price was paid.
We beg to differ. Many years ago, the two of us clashed sharply over the wisdom and morality of American policy in Indochina, especially in Cambodia. One of us (Mr. Shawcross) published a book,
Posted by Natalie on Jun 10, 2007 at 4:20 PM
Natalie,
Thanks for the link. An excellent presentation of the likely result if we
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 11, 2007 at 6:16 AM
whattheheck, a wise General once said that it is good that war is so terrible lest we grow too fond of it.
The main problem with the Iraq operation was that folks who had no clue over rode the military planner’s. And the military planner’s are to blame for rolling over like a tame puppy.
Our military troops deserve so much better than they are getting.
They have been placed in an all but unwinnable conflict and are trying their best, subject to command limitations to do their duty.
Civilians have been killed in every war that has ever been fought. Sometimes it was an accident; other times it was planned.
Look at Churchill in War II. He knew that a German air raid was laid on for Coventry. This knowledge came from their being able to read German secret messages.
Had Churchill done the easy thing and laid an ambush for the German’s, it is likely that the code process would have been changed. Instead, he made the hard choice to sacrifice Coventry so as to keep on reading the German messages. Thus helping bring Germany to its knees sooner.
The sentiment is high for cutting and running. For too many different reasons this is wrong.
But, we must have some leadership that can bring about an end to this conflict.
Staying the course is not a viable option. Our recruits receive 6 weeks of basic training plus 8-12 weeks of Advanced Infantry training and they are in battle. How long have we been training the Iraqi Army and police forces? And they are still unable/unwilling to get the job done.
Posted by farmer on Jun 11, 2007 at 7:46 AM
Farmer,
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 11, 2007 at 11:37 AM
so does this mean that EVERY time we start some ill-planned, unwinnable, and very possibly immoral war (Iraq, Vietnam, various small-scale Central American conflagrations) we are then always bound to follow it to the sad, bloody conclusion?
Sure, giving Petraeus another 500,000 troops would be fantastic—but it ain’t going to happen. And short of that, nothing is going to win this civil war. Better to pull back now and at least staunch the American losses. Iraqi losses will continue to be severe (though the sooner we get out the sooner their various battling factions will ultimately reach a conclusion to the fighting), and we will bear the shame of their dead for the rest of our lives.
Not that this has anything to do with our money-wasting usage of mercenaries, but that’s beside the point…
Posted by wintermute on Jun 11, 2007 at 1:33 PM
Hopefully, this meant that the next time a President feels the need to start a war, he will have just a little common sense, especially if he has had no military experience beyond getting his teeth checked.
The morale of our military is very important, or it should be, to all of us. After this much time, and this many dead and maimed troops, it would be ruinous to that morale to just pack up and leave.
Yes, that is what should have been done when the Shrub staged his Mission Complete photo-op. But, between him and Rummy, neither had a clue as what they needed to do.
It pains me to think of the troops having been placed in harm’s way by a man to avoided being in harm’s way by using his daddy’s connections. At least his daddy was man enough to take his chances.
Posted by farmer on Jun 11, 2007 at 2:26 PM
wintermute,
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 12, 2007 at 6:13 AM
Another great argument against Ron Paul style short-sightedness:
What I Saw in Iraq
Posted by Natalie on Jun 15, 2007 at 7:55 PM
Natalie
Thanks for the article. I don’t agree with all the points he made, but it has given me something to think about. And that’s the whole point, isn’t it?
Posted by farmer on Jun 15, 2007 at 10:26 PM
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“One out of 60 U.S. military personnel serving in the Gulf War theater of operations were contractors; in the Iraq War by late 2006 that ratio was by some counts almost one to one.”
Really? One to one, REALLY? I would love to see real figures of how many US soldiers are in Iraq and how many contractors are there.
“Wolf” - Given the secrecy and lack of oversight under which most contractors in Iraq work, a true number is impossible to get. However, the Washington Post’s Renae Merle reported in December that around 100,000 contractors were in Iraq, at a time when there were roughly 140,000 US troops there. This was a dramatic increase from the Gulf War, when only about 9200 contractors were in the theater of operation. So as you can tell, it may not be exactly a one-to-one ratio (though some estimates are higher) but still a stunningly large number.
wintermute - thanks for the update. I find it incredible that there may be 100,000 contractors on the ground in Iraq. I have posted in a link that seems to be congruent with your assertion above. I am amazed that this is (apparently) not well known public information. Thanks again!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/04/AR2006120401311.html
You gotta hand it to Bush & Co., they’re f’n geniuses at avoiding limits on their actions. If as alleged almost half of the personnel in Iraq are mercenaries rather than sworn troops (reflecting off the exchange between wintermute and wolf above), then that’s 1000s of operatives who basically don’t have to concern themselves at all with congressional oversight, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, or even what little independent journalism still remains that might have a prayer of scrutinizing them.
Well, they’ve obviously always wanted a free hand, unencumbered by pesky checks and balances; this is another facet.
The latest figures I’ve seen indicate that there are 150,000 US military personel in Iraq, and at least 126,000 contractors of which approximately 48,000 are PMC’s or private military contractors.
These are stunning numbers and it should also be noted that the official discussions of withdrawal from Iraq, when they have occured at all, never mention the PMC’s.
This story is among the very most important of the many important stories that need our attention right now.
For some powerful background on the miserable politcal scene in the US I suggest that those with access to a high speed internet connection google up Adam Curtis, the British documentarian, and you can watch his “The Power of Nightmares” and “The Century of the Self”. These two multi-part works give the viewer an excellent sketch of the difficulties facing our modern day “democracy” as we suffer through a maze of manipulation woven by the mass media tentacles of the miltary industrial congressional complex (Eisenhower’s original designation).
The two documentaries, despite their critical acclaim, have yet to reach wider distribution in the US for the obvious reason that they are considered anathema to the American corporate elite.
Check them out by all means.
I guess it shouldn’t come as a surprise to read the above article. The Shrub has no concept of Duty Honor and Country, nor does he have any intention of being bound by such an old scrap of paper as the Constitution.
His promise to pprotect and defend the Constitution can be equated to a small child promising not to get in trouble again; meaningless 30 minutes later.
Hopefully, enough Americans have realized that Faux News is a toady to the neocon movement. Just as they have realized that Duhbya is the most clueless President in modern times.
But will any of them look beyond sound bites and campaign slogans in the next election?
These
I agree on the need to get realistic about “solving” the Iraq problem. The trouble is, we are hampered by a leadership that is totally unrealistic in their thinking about Iraq.
First, a bluff campaign was tried. This allowed Iraq to get rid of most of its secret materials, if they actually had any, which is debatable now. We all know about the poison gas. I am speaking of the nuclear arsenal.
Then a series of lies about the need to invade Iraq.
Then a civilian, with no war planning experiance at all was allowed to override the best war planners in the Army.
The list goes on, almost without end.
The “surge” which was supposed to secure Iraq has only increased the number of military and civilian deaths in Iraq. Civilians are going to die in any real war. This is a given. One that is difficult for too many Americans to accept. Military deaths are also a given. But when there is no real plan for dealing with a situation, other than send more troops, it is all but criminal.
Our country attempted to install a modified copy of our system of government in Iraq. People who had lived all their life under one dictator or another were suddenly told that they were free and that democracy was in effect.
Had we had people on the ground with some kind of realistic plan, maybe, just maybe, things would have been different.
Instead we had folks with no clue as what to do. Led by a President who had no clue.
Those who do not know/remember history are doomed to repeat it.
Farmer,
We
I agree with some of Sen Kerrys’ opinions.
BUT…Japan and Germany were nations that went to war against us. Now we are faced with an irregular force, without uniforms and no real national sponsor. Granted Syria, Iran and even Pakistan turn a blind eye at best and offer support at worst.
With an oil patch President and Vice President, no real effort will be made on alternative fuels. Remember when they had to restore funding (that had just been cut) so Shrub could have a photo-op, showing his support of alternative fuels? Wonder if those funds have since been re-cut? Cut so that his tax cuts for the fat cats could be paid for.
My big gripe was the revelation that WH insiders were telling each other that Iraq was a quagmire, all the while proclaiming that all was well and we just had to have patience. They knew they had a big problem and chose to hope it would solve itself.
And then, they have the nerve to say that the Democrat’s are not supporting the troops. Even after Walter Reed, they accuse the Democrat’s.
It would really harm military morale to cut and run. The military needs to feel some sort of victory…besides an empty declaration of Mission Accomplished.
The only way I see that coming close to happening is to pull all the troops back into Baghdad and totally clamp down. Then, after 3 months of no car bombings, then they could feel that they had accomplished a mission. Trying to ‘pacify’ a whole country, while refraining from civilian’s being killed/wounded is all but impossible
A relevant story…
Private Guards Weak Link in Security
Forbes online: 15.29.07, 7:13 PM ET
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/05/29/ap3767693.html
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And even if it is entirely late in the day for this reminder, there were many, many of us who thought and said way back in 2003 that they were entering a quagmire. This was predicted because we thought Bush and Co. were being unrealistic. In fact, they have engaged in what amounts to magical thinking, such as 1) prediction that their loftily phrased goals would be enough to captivate the locals’ imaginations despite the disconnection of those goals from facts on the ground: Bush/Rumsfeld imagined that virtually all Iraqis would be so relieved at the ouster of Saddam Hussein that their antipathy for rivals in other ethnic factions would be trivial and that they’d quickly unite behind a US-fostered new government, 2) unrealistic confidence derived from their vision of the US as a special, almost ahistorical case among the nations of the world: Bush/Rumsfeld imagined that because of the mystique of being “the only superpower” and “leaders of the free world”, they could count on broad international support for two separate and entirely different wars. They also counted in part upon the sympathy the world had for the US following 9/11. They thought the currency we had from having halted the spread of militaristic nationalism in WWII and militaristic socialism after that, added to their supposed superpowerful invincibility, would carry world opinion and more importantly, convince enough governments to send appreciable troops and cash, and 3) unchecked hubris regarding the prowess of US armed forces: Bush/Rumsfeld totally underestimated the enemy. They undershot the number of troops that would be required to not only beat the enemies to a standstill in BOTH Afghanistan AND Iraq BUT (more to the point) what it would need to then OCCUPY those two lands, by far the tougher job, and in places that were filled to the brim with armed, experienced fighters who would predictably hate the living guts of the occupiers. They imagined supernaturally effective fighters who could carry on to victory even without proper kit, without sufficient training or even enough ammo, and as we’ve learned too vividly already, without enough boots on the ground to properly support each other and hold onto areas they’d driven the enemy out of. Their mindset was revealed in part by mission handles like “Shock and Awe”. Absurd.
The wish by some to quickly and unilaterally bail out is understandable even if it would be poor strategy. People want to get the fuck out, and wish they could turn the clock back to before the time when they’d been told Iraqi WMDs could be deployed in under an hour. We can say it’s irrational, but it is still easy to understand as a reaction to a seemingly insoluble situation, one that is costing billions of dollars and thousands of lives but one that few are convinced will ever vindicate the magical ideas noted above.
No wonder people want to turn the clock back.
Farmer, Kuya,
We
That the next President will have one hell of a job in cleaning up Duhbyas’ messes is very clear.
And the Democrats have no claim to being right…and I am a Democrat. Really hard to be proud of that, in light of all that has happened.
We need to get out of Iraq, but it must be done with some sense of accomplishing something. Besides a photo-op announcement.
Now, three years too late, we are being told that the military commanders are trying to start talking to the insurgents.
Shrub has too much pride and too little sense of the real world to have done that when it could have avoided some of the death and maiming.
And sadly, most American politicians have no real understanding of different cultures around the world.
Hell, the Shrub had to have his daddy send folks to Austin, when he was supposed to Governor, just to tell him what he should have learned in college. And he promptly ignored all that didn’t fit with his “vision” of the world. As we have seen.
Framer,
In Illinois to vote in the primary you must first declare a party. For most of my life, since I am a fiscal conservative, I have taken the Republican one.
I never have considered myself to be of either party and often cross lines, but I have become increasingly cynical regarding our voting process, our claim to have a representative form of government and accepting that our candidates truly regard themselves as
whattheheck, ya pretty well nailed it.
Unless and until we remove big money from the political process, we are going to have more of the same.
(And in Texas, it is just about the same; you can only vote in one primary. Your voter registration card is stamped with that Party, but you can vote for any Party in the main election.)
If political donations were limited to $2000 and only from registered voters, eliglible to vote for that candidate, we’d go a long way towards removing some of the problems.
Plus, limit all lobbyist’s to providing information rather than money; with real penalties for breaking these rules, i.e., prison time and not at some Federal tennis camp.
This would force the candidates to debate the issues, rather than hiring analysts to tell them what to say. Plus we wouldn’t have so many TV and radio ads that most folks turn off or just ignore.
All politicians say that they are for ethics reform and introduce and occassionally pass legislation for that purpose…but without a real penalty.
Just as Tom Delay gets censured by the House and promptly announces that he has been completely vindicated. Then he is finally forced to retire and has to go back to Texas and try and spend all the bribe money he still has, laughing at us all the way.
TXU (eletric utility that has really jacked rates up) just spent 8 million dollars to avoid having laws passed that would limit their ability to gouge the consumer. And OUR legislator’s (the ones elected to represent US) took the money and sided with TXU. Then tell us that it is someone elses fault that the bill didn’t pass.
Farmer,
You mentioned Tom Delay
whattheheck
Glad that you didn’t fall victim to the “allure” of being close to “power”. Not all can ithstand that temptation.
Tommy keeping his pension is one example of rules/laws that need to be changed.
But, we have to wait for a politician to introduce a bill with those changes and get enough support to pass it and override a veto.
Similar to waiting for a nice day in Hell.
The alternative is calling a Constitutional Convention. But that would bring out every kook that wanted their own pet peeve included.
Far too many people have given up on the political process; and no wonder.
But then we get a “President” such as we have now, one who lies almost as a force of habit. One who wants to usurp the powers of Congress and ignore the needs of the real people in this country.
He will mention those needs, like reforming Social Security. But once mentioned, he promptly ignores doing anything.
All the recent corporate scandals that we have seen exposed, and his idea is to privatize SS. Yeah, I can see some greedy fellow, looking at all that money and thinking I could party hearty on this money before they knew it was missing.
And this country is raising a bumper crop of greedy fellows.
I call myself a moderate liberal. I believe in welfare, but only for the truly needy, not as a lifestyle.
Folks who need a hand, give them a hand, but require some public service type work in return. No work, no help. Their choice.
Jails and prisons are supposed to be places that one never wants to go to. And if one goes, it needs to be unpleasant enough that one never wants to return.
I work and expect everyone else to work.
As a farmer, I know the need for immigrant labor. Take all immigrants off welfare and out of schools and the immigration problem would be half solved.
The case of the TB patient showed how effective our security is at the border.
We do have a valid need to have some idea of who is in our country, why and where. Most other countries have such controls.
I’d like to see a system where I could call an agent and ask for 10 workers planting and picking a crop between May and July. The agent would line up some prescreened persons with ID cards, give them bus passes (my cost) and send them here. In July, I would give them their final pay and tickets back to the border. If one gets hurt, it is my expense, just like with a citizen worker.
As for a path to citizenship, they’d have to take their chances in a lottery. There is a limit on how many people our economy can support.
Farmer,
You call yourself a
Just to touch upon the topic once again
Since everybody has had a chance to see what Bush represents, at heart, I have spoken with many conservatives who feel as you do.
People like you and I could solve most of the problems facing our country.
But neither of us can get the millions of dollars to run for office.
America is relying too much on outsourcing to save a few bucks.
If corporations would rein in executive pay and benefits, they would have the money to expand/update their factories.
But the labor unions, egged on by management excesses, have all but priced their members out of work.
I have no problem with someone like Bill Gates making the big bucks. I do have a problem with someone getting paid millions of dollars just to sign papers. Or, in some cases, being fired for cause and getting multi-million dollar settlements.
Americans have gotten too accustomed to a high standard of living with too many labor saving devices. There is way too much greed in too many people in positions of power.
The framers of the Constitution had no evident intent in creating a class of political elites, but both parties have conspired to do just that.
As you said, things can’t continue as they are without one heck of a high price being paid by the citizens.
The professional politicians of both parties are in sync with big business.
This bipartisan, joint venture has created a monster which operates on the same model:
They make their own rules, codes of conduct and
As the Preamble states, more or less, When Government ceases to be responsive to the needs of the citizens, it becomes the duty of those citizens to throw off that Government.
This cannot be taken lightly. Frankly it scares me.
I hope that the next President will begin to turn things around. And talk about a massive task!
We have to extract our troops from Iraq, without destroying their morale.
Health care—I had my first kidney stone at age 61(last year) and had to go to the emergency room, as it was after office hours.
No medical insurance and it wound up costing me $4200—-just to get a prescription, not any treatment, just pain pills.
Terrorism, even allowing for the Shrub using that issue for his own ends, is something that will have to be dealt with.
Social Security will have to be reformed somehow, but not by privatizing.
Immigration has to be dealt with.
The energy situation MUST be addressed and dealt with.
While the EPA has its place, it does carry things too far. But this administration wants to let business have its way with our world, and that can’t be allowed.
It will take one hell of a good person to deal with all this and keep our country moving.
The fact that a Conservative and a Liberal, even though both are moderates, can find some common ground is the best sign.
There is hope. Although I am wondering if that light I see at the end of the tunnel is daylight or the Southbound Fast Freight.
No one candidate stands out for me,either. I had hopes for Bill Richardson, mainly because he has proven diplomatic and leadership skills. But will his persona carry him through?
The Radical Islamists will be a thorny issue for anyone. Because they won’t compromise. And we can’t very well kill all of them. That will only sow more seeds of hatred.
As to the different nations coming together and working to minimize the Radicals effectiveness, that seems our best hope. And that will require a leader who understands that the rest of the world is not just like us.
It is really a pleasure to exchange views with someone that is willing to accept life’s realities, even as we both want to change some of those realities.
And I am finding more folks like yourself here in Van Zandt County, long a GOP bastion.
Now, if everybody will just take the time and effort to find out what is really happening rather than relying on politicians sound bites, we will all be a little better off.
We have some hard times ahead of us. The Shrubs’ tax cuts and lax treatment of the oil companies coupled with his blank check spending spree will take many years to pay off.
The taxes that that pay off will require could be offset considerably, if the fraud and waste could be at least slowed down if not eliminated.
Farmer,
I am enjoying our conversations too. (One of these days I expect to be cut out of this topic
I noticed another article along these same lines today:
<blockquote>Defeat’s Killing Fields
By PETER W. RODMAN and WILLIAM SHAWCROSS
SOME opponents of the Iraq war are toying with the idea of American defeat. A number of them are simply predicting it, while others advocate measures that would make it more likely. Lending intellectual respectability to all this is an argument that takes a strange comfort from the outcome of the Vietnam War. The defeat of the American enterprise in Indochina, it is said, turned out not to be as bad as expected. The United States recovered, and no lasting price was paid.
We beg to differ. Many years ago, the two of us clashed sharply over the wisdom and morality of American policy in Indochina, especially in Cambodia. One of us (Mr. Shawcross) published a book,
Natalie,
Thanks for the link. An excellent presentation of the likely result if we
whattheheck, a wise General once said that it is good that war is so terrible lest we grow too fond of it.
The main problem with the Iraq operation was that folks who had no clue over rode the military planner’s. And the military planner’s are to blame for rolling over like a tame puppy.
Our military troops deserve so much better than they are getting.
They have been placed in an all but unwinnable conflict and are trying their best, subject to command limitations to do their duty.
Civilians have been killed in every war that has ever been fought. Sometimes it was an accident; other times it was planned.
Look at Churchill in War II. He knew that a German air raid was laid on for Coventry. This knowledge came from their being able to read German secret messages.
Had Churchill done the easy thing and laid an ambush for the German’s, it is likely that the code process would have been changed. Instead, he made the hard choice to sacrifice Coventry so as to keep on reading the German messages. Thus helping bring Germany to its knees sooner.
The sentiment is high for cutting and running. For too many different reasons this is wrong.
But, we must have some leadership that can bring about an end to this conflict.
Staying the course is not a viable option. Our recruits receive 6 weeks of basic training plus 8-12 weeks of Advanced Infantry training and they are in battle. How long have we been training the Iraqi Army and police forces? And they are still unable/unwilling to get the job done.
Farmer,
so does this mean that EVERY time we start some ill-planned, unwinnable, and very possibly immoral war (Iraq, Vietnam, various small-scale Central American conflagrations) we are then always bound to follow it to the sad, bloody conclusion?
Sure, giving Petraeus another 500,000 troops would be fantastic—but it ain’t going to happen. And short of that, nothing is going to win this civil war. Better to pull back now and at least staunch the American losses. Iraqi losses will continue to be severe (though the sooner we get out the sooner their various battling factions will ultimately reach a conclusion to the fighting), and we will bear the shame of their dead for the rest of our lives.
Not that this has anything to do with our money-wasting usage of mercenaries, but that’s beside the point…
Hopefully, this meant that the next time a President feels the need to start a war, he will have just a little common sense, especially if he has had no military experience beyond getting his teeth checked.
The morale of our military is very important, or it should be, to all of us. After this much time, and this many dead and maimed troops, it would be ruinous to that morale to just pack up and leave.
Yes, that is what should have been done when the Shrub staged his Mission Complete photo-op. But, between him and Rummy, neither had a clue as what they needed to do.
It pains me to think of the troops having been placed in harm’s way by a man to avoided being in harm’s way by using his daddy’s connections. At least his daddy was man enough to take his chances.
wintermute,
Another great argument against Ron Paul style short-sightedness:
What I Saw in Iraq
Natalie
Thanks for the article. I don’t agree with all the points he made, but it has given me something to think about. And that’s the whole point, isn’t it?
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