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The consciousness on this planet is raising and it moves me deeply to read interviews such as this one.
Posted by loudturtle on Jul 16, 2007 at 10:08 AM
What a sad story.
“In 2004. What did it for me was Fahrenheit 9/11, which really gave me a new perspective.”
Particularly tragic to base one’s perspective on such rot.
“I tried to imagine what it would be like to be in the suburbs I was from in Indiana and have a foreign army patrolling our streets and kicking our doors in and killing innocent people”
Again, very sad. And a horrible, inane metaphor.
I wish the best for this young man. Perhaps with more time his perspective will change and grow.
Posted by wolf on Jul 18, 2007 at 10:05 AM
A man wakes up to the possibility that being a US soldier means something other than ‘defending freedom’ and it becomes a sad story?
“‘In 2004. What did it for me was Fahrenheit 9/11, which really gave me a new perspective.’
Particularly tragic to base one
Posted by loudturtle on Jul 18, 2007 at 12:21 PM
Much of what I wrote above was riddled with the “Me Against You” mindset which makes me into a hypocrite. My sincerest apologies for even trying to change your perspective. “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” I must let go because I cannot seem to read the news without being overwhelmed with the negativity. Take care of yourself wolf.
Posted by loudturtle on Jul 18, 2007 at 12:37 PM
loudturtle - interesting post.
Perhaps i should provide some of the underlying reasons for my response. First, i think it is sad that a soldier in the field, actually in Iraq, found his pov in the very biased movie such as F911. As opposed to looking around (as i suppose most of the soldiers there actually do). Furthermore, it is clear that those who are in Iraq and paying attention can come to a variety of opinions, both “pro”-war and “anti”-war. Somehow this soldiers direct participation in the war apparently had less effect than a propaganda film. I find that very sad.
Next, if i lived in a totalitarian society i very well might wish someone came and attempted to “rescue” us/me. Indiana is NOT in such a category or even vaguely close. Iraq before the war was a brutal dictatorship with a madman running the country. Huge difference.
One might wonder if any country can be claimed to be superior to another. Is the US superior to, say, Sudan today? Is the freedom we extend to women, minorities and religious groups really better than how other countries (Saudi Arabia, for instance) handle their affairs? Surely it is just a matter of opinion, like whether chocolate is tastier than mud.
Change or extend “bible thumper mentality” to koran thumper mentality and we can agree. While Christianity is far from perfect, it is far superior to Islam today. But that is not saying much about Christianity, it is merely that modern islam is so very horrible in so much of the modern world, for a large variety of reasons.
Hopefully this may help broaden awareness. . .
Posted by wolf on Jul 18, 2007 at 12:52 PM
Absolutely, F911 is certainly a propaganda film and without additional information, it is impossible for us to determine if that was all of the information Vicent had available. I suppose that because I have been aligned with the anti-war movement (or perhaps more appropriately titled Pro-Peace movement) I allowed my POV to miss your point. At the same time there is an incredible amount of evidence pointing to US involvement in 9/11… As horrible as it seems and as unsavory it is to digest…
Instead we have a sly and idiotic dictator running our country who doesn’t have to go through congress to declare war! He has passed Executive Orders that give him total control of the Economy and means of production in event of any catastrophic event (so labeled by the administration obviously). He is pardoning criminals and firing judges (or did they resign? I’m so confused). I’m tired of listing the ways they are pissing on democracy, but at the same time we don’t want anyone else to intervene. It’s OUR responsibility to stand up and make them stand down. I don’t live or know anyone who has lived in Iraq where Saddam’s son executed his foot ball (soccer) team because they lost or any of the other insane things he and his family have committed. I am however inclined to believe they have similar emotions, such as pride, which would make them want to be the ones to take control and not another nation whose culture and opinions conflict with their own.
Absolutely, there are religious zealots on both fronts, just as there are level headed individuals on both sides. Just as Christianity is broken into hundreds(?) of denominations (some who still practice self flagellation), Islam has more than one sect that doesn’t think they will go to heaven by taking out as many people as they can with a bomb strapped to their chest.
As far as I can tell and I’m sure many others have predicted, It appears that our involvement in Iraq has burgeoned the ranks of the Islam sects that are the craziest.
The Indiana metaphor could be more appropriately understood as “Walk a mile in their shoes,” or “Do unto others as you would do unto yourself.” I suppose it struck me close to home because I have “If they were you and you were them” tattood on my wrists to be my constant reminder of “The Golden Rule.”
There are many great minds that comment regularly on this website. I’ve read more good ideas for solutions here than months of research prior to finding In These Times. Thank you Wolf and others.
Posted by loudturtle on Jul 18, 2007 at 8:21 PM
My Grandfather fought in WWI, my father in WWII and my older brother in Viet Nam. The last two men are still alive, thankfully. Each of them have instilled in me a profound sense of the value of a human life and how it just overwhelmingly ‘trumps’ Government-Generated War.
My solution to the Iraqi Conflict is to enforce a Draft that would accept ONLY EURO-AMERICAN MALES with Annual Incomes OVER $1 Million and a Net Worth of $1 Million or More ; and from AGE 45 UP TO 80! I ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE THE CONFLICTS IN IRAQ & AFGANISTAN WOULD COME TO AN END IN A MATTER OF WEEKS & AMERICAN DEMOCRACY WOULD BE SPARED THE CONTINUED DECEITFUL HERESY OF BUSH & CHENEY.
The United States fought a Revolution at its birth and a Civil War to remain WHOLE. Along the way, we fought the War of 1812 to keep the British from reclaiming their ‘former Colonies’. Today, we are sending Mexican-Americans with Documentation Issues to fight and Die for Iraqi OIL FOR Bush & Cheney’s Wealthy Trilateral Commission friends - of whom Bill Clinton & Kerry are but examples! Viler still, we are sending Euro-Americans without hope of a meaningful job in this purposely fouled up Economy & Job Market to fight and Die trying to kill people who are just like the Americans 1812 who fought the British to protect their new nation!
Why are there ‘Insurgents’ and ‘Al-Qaeda’ in Iraq? To get Americans out of their Nation, protect their Nation’s Sovereignty and hang on to their OIL AND GAS! American Soldiers Are Dying to KEEP THE US WEALTHY, WEALTHY! Bush & Cheney are the foulest leaders this nation has ever had…Americans need to stop drinking the Koolaid!
Posted by Joseph Conrad on Jul 25, 2007 at 9:39 AM
First there is this, Wolf:
Indiana is not under a dictatorship. Thank you for pointing out the obvious. You missed the point of the combat-at-home metaphor.
-Think about it again. Then speak. If your answer is stil the same. Save your breath. Actually just hold it.
Secondly, There’s this:
“Somehow this soldiers direct participation in the war apparently had less effect than a propaganda film. I find that very sad.”
-Wolf
Really? You find it so “sad” that you had to comment on a unilateral article detailing this solider’s plight to deal with a harsh and cruel reality and life changing revelation. I am under the assumption, (and this is just by actually reading the article in it’s entirety, a basic element of analytical reading) that it wasn’t just the movie that gave him that POV. I’m sure the experience alone started the transformation of the POV, then coming home from such an experience and trying to segue back into U.S. society would be the next major revelation. Subsequently, I’m sure the movie was more of a straw that broke the camel’s back. Propaganda or whatever your view of it, you ignored his whole story and focused on a movie you didn’t agree with. You missed the point again, I’m sure it’s not the last time either.
Too bad Vincent could not enlighten you of his plight in person. He’s a brilliant mind, a kind heart, and a spitting image of a leader that would create a more humanitarian society.
“SAD”- you don’t know the meaning.
Sorry for commenting so late, I just came across this article.
Posted by Rodney on Jan 23, 2008 at 11:00 PM
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Reader Comments
The consciousness on this planet is raising and it moves me deeply to read interviews such as this one.
What a sad story.
“In 2004. What did it for me was Fahrenheit 9/11, which really gave me a new perspective.”
Particularly tragic to base one’s perspective on such rot.
“I tried to imagine what it would be like to be in the suburbs I was from in Indiana and have a foreign army patrolling our streets and kicking our doors in and killing innocent people”
Again, very sad. And a horrible, inane metaphor.
I wish the best for this young man. Perhaps with more time his perspective will change and grow.
A man wakes up to the possibility that being a US soldier means something other than ‘defending freedom’ and it becomes a sad story?
“‘In 2004. What did it for me was Fahrenheit 9/11, which really gave me a new perspective.’
Particularly tragic to base one
Much of what I wrote above was riddled with the “Me Against You” mindset which makes me into a hypocrite. My sincerest apologies for even trying to change your perspective. “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.” I must let go because I cannot seem to read the news without being overwhelmed with the negativity. Take care of yourself wolf.
loudturtle - interesting post.
Perhaps i should provide some of the underlying reasons for my response. First, i think it is sad that a soldier in the field, actually in Iraq, found his pov in the very biased movie such as F911. As opposed to looking around (as i suppose most of the soldiers there actually do). Furthermore, it is clear that those who are in Iraq and paying attention can come to a variety of opinions, both “pro”-war and “anti”-war. Somehow this soldiers direct participation in the war apparently had less effect than a propaganda film. I find that very sad.
Next, if i lived in a totalitarian society i very well might wish someone came and attempted to “rescue” us/me. Indiana is NOT in such a category or even vaguely close. Iraq before the war was a brutal dictatorship with a madman running the country. Huge difference.
One might wonder if any country can be claimed to be superior to another. Is the US superior to, say, Sudan today? Is the freedom we extend to women, minorities and religious groups really better than how other countries (Saudi Arabia, for instance) handle their affairs? Surely it is just a matter of opinion, like whether chocolate is tastier than mud.
Change or extend “bible thumper mentality” to koran thumper mentality and we can agree. While Christianity is far from perfect, it is far superior to Islam today. But that is not saying much about Christianity, it is merely that modern islam is so very horrible in so much of the modern world, for a large variety of reasons.
Hopefully this may help broaden awareness. . .
Absolutely, F911 is certainly a propaganda film and without additional information, it is impossible for us to determine if that was all of the information Vicent had available. I suppose that because I have been aligned with the anti-war movement (or perhaps more appropriately titled Pro-Peace movement) I allowed my POV to miss your point. At the same time there is an incredible amount of evidence pointing to US involvement in 9/11… As horrible as it seems and as unsavory it is to digest…
Instead we have a sly and idiotic dictator running our country who doesn’t have to go through congress to declare war! He has passed Executive Orders that give him total control of the Economy and means of production in event of any catastrophic event (so labeled by the administration obviously). He is pardoning criminals and firing judges (or did they resign? I’m so confused). I’m tired of listing the ways they are pissing on democracy, but at the same time we don’t want anyone else to intervene. It’s OUR responsibility to stand up and make them stand down. I don’t live or know anyone who has lived in Iraq where Saddam’s son executed his foot ball (soccer) team because they lost or any of the other insane things he and his family have committed. I am however inclined to believe they have similar emotions, such as pride, which would make them want to be the ones to take control and not another nation whose culture and opinions conflict with their own.
Absolutely, there are religious zealots on both fronts, just as there are level headed individuals on both sides. Just as Christianity is broken into hundreds(?) of denominations (some who still practice self flagellation), Islam has more than one sect that doesn’t think they will go to heaven by taking out as many people as they can with a bomb strapped to their chest.
As far as I can tell and I’m sure many others have predicted, It appears that our involvement in Iraq has burgeoned the ranks of the Islam sects that are the craziest.
The Indiana metaphor could be more appropriately understood as “Walk a mile in their shoes,” or “Do unto others as you would do unto yourself.” I suppose it struck me close to home because I have “If they were you and you were them” tattood on my wrists to be my constant reminder of “The Golden Rule.”
There are many great minds that comment regularly on this website. I’ve read more good ideas for solutions here than months of research prior to finding In These Times. Thank you Wolf and others.
My Grandfather fought in WWI, my father in WWII and my older brother in Viet Nam. The last two men are still alive, thankfully. Each of them have instilled in me a profound sense of the value of a human life and how it just overwhelmingly ‘trumps’ Government-Generated War.
My solution to the Iraqi Conflict is to enforce a Draft that would accept ONLY EURO-AMERICAN MALES with Annual Incomes OVER $1 Million and a Net Worth of $1 Million or More ; and from AGE 45 UP TO 80! I ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE THE CONFLICTS IN IRAQ & AFGANISTAN WOULD COME TO AN END IN A MATTER OF WEEKS & AMERICAN DEMOCRACY WOULD BE SPARED THE CONTINUED DECEITFUL HERESY OF BUSH & CHENEY.
The United States fought a Revolution at its birth and a Civil War to remain WHOLE. Along the way, we fought the War of 1812 to keep the British from reclaiming their ‘former Colonies’. Today, we are sending Mexican-Americans with Documentation Issues to fight and Die for Iraqi OIL FOR Bush & Cheney’s Wealthy Trilateral Commission friends - of whom Bill Clinton & Kerry are but examples! Viler still, we are sending Euro-Americans without hope of a meaningful job in this purposely fouled up Economy & Job Market to fight and Die trying to kill people who are just like the Americans 1812 who fought the British to protect their new nation!
Why are there ‘Insurgents’ and ‘Al-Qaeda’ in Iraq? To get Americans out of their Nation, protect their Nation’s Sovereignty and hang on to their OIL AND GAS! American Soldiers Are Dying to KEEP THE US WEALTHY, WEALTHY! Bush & Cheney are the foulest leaders this nation has ever had…Americans need to stop drinking the Koolaid!
First there is this, Wolf:
Indiana is not under a dictatorship. Thank you for pointing out the obvious. You missed the point of the combat-at-home metaphor.
-Think about it again. Then speak. If your answer is stil the same. Save your breath. Actually just hold it.
Secondly, There’s this:
“Somehow this soldiers direct participation in the war apparently had less effect than a propaganda film. I find that very sad.”
-Wolf
Really? You find it so “sad” that you had to comment on a unilateral article detailing this solider’s plight to deal with a harsh and cruel reality and life changing revelation. I am under the assumption, (and this is just by actually reading the article in it’s entirety, a basic element of analytical reading) that it wasn’t just the movie that gave him that POV. I’m sure the experience alone started the transformation of the POV, then coming home from such an experience and trying to segue back into U.S. society would be the next major revelation. Subsequently, I’m sure the movie was more of a straw that broke the camel’s back. Propaganda or whatever your view of it, you ignored his whole story and focused on a movie you didn’t agree with. You missed the point again, I’m sure it’s not the last time either.
Too bad Vincent could not enlighten you of his plight in person. He’s a brilliant mind, a kind heart, and a spitting image of a leader that would create a more humanitarian society.
“SAD”- you don’t know the meaning.
Sorry for commenting so late, I just came across this article.
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