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No one wants war. But the idea of a nuclear armed medieval state is very very scary.
Sanctions are a good idea, particularly if they target all advanced technology. We should avoid letting Iran acquire any technology that was not available in 1950 or so, unless it is clear that such technology cannot be abused by the crazies who rule that country. Of course, no modern weapons should be allowed in as well. This is not only for our own good, but for the good of Iran as well. They simply are not ready for such disruptive technologies and clearly are inclined to wreck havoc with the same, if they obtain it.
How sad it must be to grow up in such primitive conditions, when wealth and knowledge are both available to them. I pity those who are unlucky enough to be born there. But perhaps they will come out of savagery and ignorance and eventually find they way into the modern world (rather than attempting to destroy same). One can only hope, for their sakes and ours.
Posted by wolf on Sep 19, 2007 at 9:27 AM
What about the paramilitarism and attempt to regain empire by the radical Muslims? Did he forget about that already?
Due to the over-extention of our military in the Iraq escapade we are in bad shape to deal with another wacko regime whether Iran, Korea, or ?
Both the left and the right need to stop the medial civil war and establish a coherent military policy which includes the other free world leaders who have also been attacked.
With a solid front we could handle this with strategies economic planning backed by a global miltary threat rather than resorting to unilateral force.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 19, 2007 at 9:33 AM
For anyone to even believe that we have the right to attack or go to war with Iran if we could afford such actions, and our military wasn’t overexpanded is ridiculous. We have NO right to attack Iran, regardless of how ridiculous the regime may be, and regardless of what the US government would like us to believe regarding the Iranian governments intentions. Even the idea that we should attack Iran is ridiculous given the fact that even if Iran is attempting to create nuclear weapons (which there is no proof that they are, and obviously according to the weapons inspectors, they don’t have the uranium enriched at high enough levels to be doing so) they still do NOT have a nuclear weapon. Should we believe now that the US has a right to attack other nations based off of their governments intentions to do something alone? Are we going to enforce thought crimes for other nations? Why is it that American’s are still foolish enough to believe that this government has a right to police the world, when the government itself is in violation of international law, is guilty of war crimes, and continues hegemony? The only reason we will go to war with Iran is to expand the US empire, and it’s time that the liberals wake up and realize that this is the very purpose of all US actions abroad. The govenrment has no clear intention to make sure the world is safe, otherwise it wouldn’t be intending to start another arms race with Russia by putting a missile defence system in the Czech republic and Poland.
The US has more nuclear weapons than any one else in the world, it alone spends more on military than the rest of the world combined. It is supporting Israel as it continues to occupy Palestine, and enforce aggressive foreign policy throughout the Middle East, inevitably causing terrorism. The US recently announced it is going to military buildup everyone around Iran by arming them to the teeth, and what do we expect Iran to do exactly? If they were creating nuclear weapons, would they not be justified? It would be the only thing to deter a US attack on them. Then there is the idea that we need to attack Iran because they are supporting Shiite militias which are responsibl for attacks on US troops, yet, there still is no proof that Iran has directly given them weapons, and in fact Petraeus himself has said that they have no proof to support this, as well as many other US generals.
It is time for us to stand up and stop the US government, and to stop this kind of hostility which is only getting worse. We as human beings must not accept the actions of this government as being legitimate just because we live in America. Has no one learned anything from Iraq? For how long can we blind ourselves, before we realize the truth, and finally put a stop to the US empire building. Military action obviously is not the answer to our problems, bombing an innocent population is not goign to solve anything, we must look at dismantling militarism instead of encouraging it. (this comment was mainly regarding the two previous comments)
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 19, 2007 at 11:23 AM
Quoting anarcho “Why is it that Americans are foolish enough to believe that this government has the right to police the world…..”
That’s the big question millions of us around the world are asking ourselves each night, the cause of most of our nightmares. The options are not too many: either because they are too self-centered and really believe they are the “super race” or they are too blind to see the consequences of USA’s foreign policy in the last decades, which has only brought about pain, suffering and death to many countries, always based on lies, half-truths and arrogance.
So, calling other governments “wacko” is lacking any sense of perspective and self-criticism. The very moment your president started on his imperial campaign against other countries based on absolute lies, I came up with a definition of “a blindman poking about with a long stick on ant-hives”. I wish I had been mistaken but everyday news confirm my suspicion.
Posted by Maria on Sep 19, 2007 at 5:09 PM
Maria,
Perhaps you would rather Iran or Korea were the dominant military in the world
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 20, 2007 at 8:30 AM
Wolf, America is becoming a fascist state. That is scarier than specious allegations of Iran having or seeking to aquire nuclear weapons. And what about the crazies that rule your country who are wreaking havoc in Iraq with nuclear wepaons in the form of depleted uranium weapons? And the same crazies are threatening Iran with nuclear attack. Incredible hubris and a fine example of the pot calling the kettle black.
How sad it is that your self perception of cultural superiority seems to prevent you from appreciating the wealth and knowledge of other countries and cultures. I pity you and those like you who are unfortunate enough to be born in America and conditioned to believe that America is a beacon of freedom for the rest of the world to emulate. Very sad.
For your own good and that of your country and the good of others around the world I urge you to speak out against all aggressive wars.
Whattheheck, what about America’s attempt to gain empire ? Are you really that blind that you can’t see that the enemy is us (you)? What about the radicals in your own government who seem to be hell bent on attacking Iran just as Iraq was attacked without legitimate cause?
Why is your solution dependant on a military threat ? Isn’t there a better way?
As for the article ...
<i>“Another War We Can
David,
Love your enemies? Turn the other cheek?
Would you do away with the RCMP?
Check out history
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 21, 2007 at 6:31 AM
David -
The US is (obviously) not a perfect country. As are all countries, it is composed of imperfect men. I see little danger of it becoming fascist, that is simply rhetoric with little substance (however, Saudi Arabia, Korea, China, Russia, etc etc while not being “fascist” per se have human rights records consistent with same, so there is lots of room to point fingers).
Iran has made it clear they want nukes. Some here believe it is their *right* to acquire them as well. I suggest that we - the West - should not help them in this pursuit, which seems to me very likely to cause tragedy beyond any we have yet seen in modern times. We have already given them technology far beyond their ability to control, we should limit the damages now before it is too late.
All wars are aggressive. All wars are evil. All wars kill innocents of all stripes. The trick then is to choose the least of two (or more) evils, rather than simply picking good over evil. This has always been a difficult choice, but it is the nature of the world we live in.
BTW my definition of “cultural superiority” extends to Canada and the West in general. Places where people are (mostly) free, as opposed to the vast majority of other places (the list above, all of Africa, almost all of the middle east, etc). Those of us lucky enough to live in freedom should be very happy to be so fortunate!
Posted by wolf on Sep 21, 2007 at 7:14 AM
Wolf - Iran has not made it clear as you state. The President of Iran has made it clear that he wants nuclear weapons, but if you had any understanding of the way Iran operates, you would see that all foreign policy matters are in the hands of Ayatollah Khamenei. Instead of listening to what the nutjob president says, you can read what he says instead, and everytime the president comes out and says something ridiculous like they want to nuke Israel or wipe Israel off the map, Khamenei has come out soon after and said, “no, we aren’t going to do this”. Aside from that Khamanei has ordered a fatwa (religious prohibition) against nuclear weapons. Aside from that, if you actually would have read this article through, you would read:
“All along, Iran has maintained that the purpose of the program is to generate electricity for civilian use. And the U.N.’s nuclear watchdog organization, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), reported on August 30 “significant” cooperation from Iran over its nuclear program and said that the uranium enrichment processes have decreased and are producing “well below the expected quantity for a facility of this design.” Additionally, according to the IAEA, Iran has promised to answer most of the agency’s questions by November. The IAEA further commended Iran for coming to agreement on a new work plan and timeline set forth by the IAEA.”
And war is never necessary. Perhaps if you would pull your head out of the sand, you would see that all of the wars the US goes into are just for the sake of empire building. If Iran was creating nuclear weapons, which they obviously are not, they would be doing so to protect themselves as the US continues to build up their neighbors which are their enemies (Israel mainly) to the teeth.
” Those of us lucky enough to live in freedom should be very happy to be so fortunate!”
Good god, I’m sorry, but where the hell have you been living? Freedom? HA! What a joke. We are oppressed, not free. If you can’t realize that then no wonder you think we should go to war.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 21, 2007 at 9:33 AM
Wolf, type “fascism america” into your favorite search engine and do some reading.
Here are a couple examples:
14 points of fascism
The Dawning of Fascism in America
It’s a reality and brushing it off as simply rhetoric with little substance is cowardly or ignorant.
You say Iran has made it clear they want nukes . Assuming you mean nuclear weapons ... do you have any evidence for this assertion?
Currently Iran insists they are pursuing peaceful nuclear technology and the IAEA backs this up. Any allegations from the United States about Iran attempting to develop nuclear are simply that ... allegations and probably lies. Lies very similar to the ones that were part of the propaganda runup to the invasion of Iraq.
The invasion of Iraq was an illegal war and the instigators are war criminals. Any attack on Iran is more of the same.
Please spare me your lesser evil justification for war. It is superficialy pleasing but lacks real merit.
whattheheck-
I realize this wasn’t directed towards me, but I’m responding anyways.
“Perhaps you would rather Iran or Korea were the dominant military in the world — well, you are entitled to your opinion. History shows us that someone always fills that role.”
The dominant military in the world? Cmon. The US is the most powerful military in the world, we spend more on militarism than all other nations combined, and you’re going to tlel me that one of those countries which isn’t even close to our military stance is going to fill that role? Give me a break. Neither nation poses a serious threat to the nation which spends that much on militarism, the nation which is the most heavily armed, and the nation with the most nuclear weapons.
“I notice you chose to ignore my suggestion, “…establish a coherent military policy which includes the other free world leaders who have also been attacked.””
No military policy is needed, and the “free world” doesn’t exist. It’s time you people raelized this. Every part of the “free world” is oppressed, we are not free in America, even if your democrats are elected, we will not have true freedom. True freedom cannot exist with governments, for all governments are oppressive. Freedom exists for our corporations to go overseas and exploit third world nations, not for us as citizens, surely Bush’s reign has by now proven that as we step more and more into an Orwellian world.
“Without the threat and strength to back up any warnings to rogue nations or “wacko” religious zealots, the world would indeed be run by anarchists…if so, the next time there is a natural disaster — call an anarchist for help.”
You act as if anarchists seek to destabilize the world. This shows that you lack an understanding of what anarchy represents, maybe instead of relying on the popular idea that we are bomb throwing chaos oriented individuals, you should look into the actual ideals behind anarchism. Read individuals such as Emma Goldman, Peter Kropotkin, Rudolf Rocker, don’t rely on what the mainstream depicts anarchy to be. It is a philosophy which believes in peace, freedom, and equality, maybe oppression sounds better to you since you seeem to enjoy the current system, but to act as if anarchy is this horrible thing shows a lack of real understanding. Next time there is a natural disaster, who are you going to call, your government? The same govenrment which failed you on Katrina? The same government which failed you on 9/11? The same government which tells you that any day there could be a terrorist attack and that they are to inept and foolish to stop it? The same government that continues to do nothing about global warming, the most serious threat that exists in this world? Anarchism is about people coming together collectively to do things, and eliminates hierarchical authority, seeking to create a world without governments which continue to oppress the people. And your comment about religious zealots and rogue nations, and this would somehow make the world ran by anarchists? How do you figure upon this? We are opposed to all forms of hierarchical authority, and to say that we would somehow “rule” the world, is a paradox, for we do not believe in “ruling” as in, anarchists ruling over everyone else, we believe in a world in which there is no “rule” as it is, because no one has more power than the other, for us to rule over anyone would contradict what we believe, therefor not making us anarchists. And anarchism is a legitimate political belief, just as socialism, and communism are, just that we recognize that the people don’t need a state. The world has been ran without hierarchical authory before, and it can be ran so again (maybe you should research Spain during the Spanish civil war, and see that it was anarchy, but there wasn’t chaos, and it was run much better than yoru capitalist societies are).
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 21, 2007 at 9:50 AM
Does anyone here really believe that Iran (or North Korea) really want to build nuclear power plants to generate electricity? Their agendas are not hidden and are stated clearly. If they really want power, we should help them generate it via solar cells. . .
David - the US is obviously not heading toward fascism. In fact, if we use the “14 points” misapproach to defining same, we were more fascist in the past then we are now (does anyone think the US is **more** sexist today than previous eras? Really? How about the “stolen” election of 1960? The brutal justice of the wild west? Etc. Please tell me you are merely joking, i get it! Funny!)
In any case, i do not advocate the invasion of Iran. Merely that we stop “helping” them advance with technology beyond their knowledge and wisdom.
Sorry to cause your brain to boggle with the idea that the choices are not between white and black, but rather shades of grey. It is a confusing world we live in, but perhaps you have distilled it down to something simple and comfortable for yourself.
anarcho-liberation - oppressed? In the US? You really need to get out more!
Posted by wolf on Sep 21, 2007 at 11:58 AM
Afford another war? Hell, too many Americans can’t afford to pay their house note much less finance another bonus for Haliburton and Black Water execs. bush should be more worried about so many Americans not being able to afford to go to the doctor or dentist, or the fact that the U S has a negative savings rate, that credit card debt has rendered people making as much as six figure incomes virtual indentured servants. bush ought to be more concerned that the dollar is on its way to not being worth much more than the Mexican peso and that the airports are so messed up it takes a whole day to go anywhere even if you’re only in the air a couple hours. Making sure more than half of the interstate bridges aren’t potential death traps should be a higher priority than whether Iran can nuke Israel. Sorry, I’m one of those selfish ass Americans tired of paying for wars that aren’t being fought for my benefit.
Posted by theloneous on Sep 21, 2007 at 1:53 PM
“people making as much as six figure incomes virtual indentured servants.”
Talk about being irresponsible. Surely you don’t blame this on Bush or anyone other than those who so badly mismanage their incomes?
The trick to not being a wage slave is simple. Save a minimum of 10% of your income, preferably 20%. Invest in a broad based mutual fund (401K or IRA are optimal) and wait a few decades. Then decide what to do with the rest of your life.
As a bonus - find a job you like and work can be fulfilling and even enjoyable.
We live our lives by the choices we make. That is freedom. Life is good.
Posted by wolf on Sep 21, 2007 at 3:08 PM
Wolf-perhaps a definition of fascism would help you.” Fascism is a political regime that is characterized by a high degree of concentration of power in the state, in one political party or in one person, accompanied by a messianic and belligerent form of nationalism, by the usurpation of legislative and judicial prerogative by the executive branch of the government, by the suppression of individual freedoms at home, by the worshipping of national symbols such as flags, and by a rise of militarism and the pursuit of military expansions abroad, often so as to avenge some perceived humiliation.”
Are you naive enough to believe that we aren’t already essentially a fascist state? We certainly are not a democratic state, the Iraq war of all things has proven that.
And yes, oppressed. If you want to call your oppression “freedom” then you can go ahead and deny what is right in front of your eyes. You need to get out more. The only freedom that exists is the freedom that your masters have convinced you exists, you haven’t freedom. You are subject to laws, and restrictions. Unless you’ve been living under a rock, you should realize that we obviously don’t have the rights and freedom we are thought to. To an extent yes, we have freedom, but can you call it freedom if it only exists with permission from the State? Even the rights given to you by the constitution are now suddenly becoming more and more absent. The freedom to peacefully assemble-at protests they have police shooting people with rubber bullets, shooting tear gas into the crowds, arresting activists, and beating activists. As long as you choose to obey the system, you are not free. The very exercise of hierarchical authority is not freedom. As Thoreau pointed out:
“Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.”
The rest of my response to your continuing ideas about iran bcan be found in the post after this.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 21, 2007 at 3:25 PM
Wolf-
“Does anyone here really believe…(they are) building nuclear power plants to generate electricity? Their agendas are not hidden and are stated clearly. If they really want power, we should help them generate it via solar cells. . .”
They’re agendas aren’t hidden? Give me a quote that they’ve said they are creating nukes. You’re basically just giving the same lines as the Bush regime. You make assertions which have no facts or evidence to support them, and stand against the amounting evidence which points the opposite. War with Iran isn’t about a “threat”, it is about hegemony, thus the reason why they go back and forth on their assertions just like they did with Iraq, never presenting a valid argument, just asserting that Iran is a threat because they are either funding Shiite militias in Iraq, or building nukes, or is supporting Al Qaeda, and anyone who challenges them is wrong. You probably believed their Iraq lines as well, but those turned out to be dead wrong now didn’t they?
What else do you want to assert? Maybe Bolivia is also supporting Al Qaeda, after all, your “leaders” want to go to war with them too. IF you want to continue living in Fox News land, then everything is great in America, and the rest of the world is a threat to us. In the real world however, things exist differently.
Ignoring facts though. Lets examine the impact a war would have. Even if Iran acquires a nuke, do you honestly think they are a serious threat? If they were to attack Israel or the US it would be suicidal (neither of which Khamenie will back). Putting aside the costs, and what Iran is doing, do you not realize what the effect would be? It would first of all further destabilize Iraq, and Afghanistan. The Iraq effect increased terrorist attacks over 600% and helped Jihadist ideology and terrorist groups. The Iraq effect would seem minor compared to the Iran effect though. It would only help terrorist groups, and you can bet that this is the exact move that Bin Laden is wanting. It could very likely also create World War III, with countries such as Russia, and central Asian nations conducting war games last spring in preperation for US strikes, as well as many other nations which are saying they will not tolerate a US strike. Do you propose we take the risk of starting such a huge war, just because Iran might be developing nuclear weapons (should we take this risk based off of a thought crime if you will, Iran’s intention to build nuclear weapons?). Whatever threat that would exist if Iran does indeed create nuclear weapons, would not outweigh the threats posed to the world if we went to war with them. Hezbollah would surely unleash terrorist attacks upon us, and the disasterous consequences of such a war should be seriously examined, before we just jump into going to war. This isn’t the game of Risk, nor is it a game of chess, there are much larger consequences which could come forth out of attacking them, then you realize. Even if you feel Iran is creating a nuclear weapon, examine what the consequences would be should we take military action against them.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 21, 2007 at 3:25 PM
anarcho: last time I visited my country, Argentina, there was a family gathering. The younger generation, which had been in their early twenties when I left surrounded me and were eager to know what I was. My reply that I was ahuman being wasn’t satisfactory enough, in these time where everyone is supposed to have a label, so I had to add: I am an anarchist. Smiles froze, and when I intended to explain what that means the elders of the family tried to deviate conversation so that their children wouldn’t be contaminated by my outrageous ideas. It seems for some obscure reason I have never been able to understand, most people need to have some form of power over them, be it political or religious as a way to feel safer. Life isn’t safe, nothing is certain, only lack of prejudice, compassion to all and good will to work together to make a better world can make the difference but first you have to overcome fear, greed and selfishness. Thank you for replying to whattheheck on my behalf. I will end by saying that if a natural disaster ocurred I wouldn’t dream of calling anybody, I would do my best to do in my modest measure whatever I could to help and, who knows, maybe some other anarchist would come along without being called.
Posted by Maria on Sep 21, 2007 at 6:32 PM
Maria:
I am familiar with the response that you received from your family, I too have experienced that response from family as well as friends. It was seen as just a silly belief to them at first, and then when they realized that it was something I had actually thought about, and read upon, and believed seriously, then it was that hiding my ideas so others aren’t “contaminated” as you put it. America seems to be the most obedient and reliant upon authority of everywhere else, which is ironic considering the very people who found it often spoke of dissent and rebellion against authority as a good thing. It is always difficult for me to understand that even if a person believes in the current system, that they would view those of us who wish to achieve freedom, equality, and a more peaceful world as having something “wrong” with us.
“It seems for some obscure reason I have never been able to understand, most people need to have some form of power over them, be it political or religious as a way to feel safer. “
It is the way that they have been conditioned by authority as the reason why people want such power over them, is the way I feel. It is difficult for them to grasp that idea that they don’t need them when they have had the idea so enforced in their heads that everything good is given to us by authority. Yet, if we look at the things that people view so favorably that they have, it isn’t that the government willfully gave it to them, it is that the governments were forced by the people to give it to them.
“Life isn’t safe, nothing is certain, only lack of prejudice, compassion to all and good will to work together to make a better world can make the difference but first you have to overcome fear, greed and selfishness”
Those words are very true. As I believe it was said by Chomsky, the differences that we have, for any sane person, are things to celebrate. Our differences are things to recognize of beauty, but sadly, people feel inclined to follow the authority which always preaches violence against those who are different.
And your welcome for the reply to whattheheck.
Solidarity-
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 21, 2007 at 8:53 PM
Wolf-
On another note to your response to the other guy.
” We live our lives by the choices we make. That is freedom. Life is good.” You’ve got to be kidding me? Do you honestly think we are even allowed to make choices? We have no serious choices to make, because we are wage slaves, and our lives are dictated by the need to make money, and little amount at it. We do not make choices, we are coerced into doing things by our need to make the wages.
You said that people are irresponsible with their incomes, and mismanaging them because they can’t afford to go to the doctor and such? How do you even figure this? You have no logic to any of your arguments, just shallow points which lack any substance or thought into how the system works. You are the same slave as the rest of us, but you just refuse to realize it. The majority of the wealth of the country is in the hands of the richest elite, and then the rest is unequally divided up to the public. We are divided into classes, and the people who work the hardest often are the ones who get the worst wages, and when they break their backs working their asses off, what do they get? A big screw you from the system. You’re probably one of those people who sits there and gripes about public welfare, and public crime, and how we need to crack down on both, but when it comes to corporate welfare, and corporate crime, that’s acceptable. The capitalist system exploits the workers, and gives all the benefits to an elite group, how is that freedom? We still are submitting to a higher “authority” and aren’t allowed to make any choices ourselves.
Again, we do not have the freedom you think we have. We have no say so in the system, we have no say so in the way our society is ran, we simply submit to “authorities” who claim that this is a democracy. We are deprived of our freedoms by the economy, and by the state.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 22, 2007 at 8:27 PM
“Do you honestly think we are even allowed to make choices? We have no serious choices to make, because we are wage slaves, and our lives are dictated by the need to make money, and little amount at it. We do not make choices, we are coerced into doing things by our need to make the wages.”
—————-
Anarcho,
First off the U.S. is not a democracy it is a republic, but that is a different topic.
As to your assessment of life in the U.S.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 23, 2007 at 5:59 AM
Sheesh! You succeed in doing good in the world and all the nutjobs come out in force to criticize.
Another War We Can’t Afford
In the first six months of 1942, immediately after Pearl Harbor, the United States wrote purchase orders for war materials and related war efforts that exceeded the GNP. The national debt during WWII reached over 125% of GNP.
Right now the national indebtedness is falling in comparison to GNP. To say that the United States “can’t afford” another war is patently ridiculous. This is the only war in American history in which the deficit is falling. Winning without fighting (against Iran and NoKo, for examples) is much preferable to winning with fighting, but the dollar cost is negligible and simply not a factor when dealing with head hunters and practitioners of human sacrifice, such as the Jihadists.
Civilian and military casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq are also negligible compared to previous wars, and civilian casualties in Iraq are a small fraction of the civilian murders during Saddam’s regime. The American casualties in Iraq/Afghanistan are very much on the order of 09/11, Beirut, and Mogadishu. making the current war on terror casualty rate the lowest in American history, both in absolute and relative terms.
Nazi is short for Nationalsozialistische (National Socialist), it does not mean National Capitalist. Both Socialism and Fascism are shabby intellectual constructs designed to give power to totalitarians (Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, and Hillary, if and when she achieves power).
Democratic, rule-of-law capitalism is the only thing that stands between the United States and another round of world totalitarian excess. You collectivists and anarchists think you can make the ideal world by imposing your failed values on the American Republic. You are as dumb as dog shit. Never happen.
Posted by scorp on Sep 23, 2007 at 9:39 AM
Whattheheck-
“certainly each of us is facing different personal issues. Some are born into better economic circumstances, racial biases are an issue for a substantial segment, some are better looking, more talented — intelligence and health play a major role. Many people do not make the most of their opportunities. Many want more no matter how well off they already are. Some make poor choices (Yes, we do make choices.) early in life which hamper their futures — having children they can’t afford is more lasting than buying a house beyond reason. A criminal record. Choosing a job with little demand. The choices are infinite. “
You seem to not be too naive as to some of the problems with the system, yet you fail to analyze them overall as being a product of the system, and instead choose as most do, to blame it on the people. Yes, some spend more than they have, but does the very society we live in not promote this behavior? Do the authority figures which people have been told to follow, as we are told that they have the answers not direct us towards that lifestyle of overspending and overconsuming? That is the very nature of Capitalism in general, is to overconsume. The system does not provide the overwhelming oppurtunities which you think it does, and yes, there are choices involved for people, but as you basically say without directly pointing it out, is that people are most of the time forced to become wage-slaves, working jobs that they don’t care to work for low amounts, because the system has screwed them over. Certainly the majority of America is not well off, and this should be obvious. How can we expect people to live off of minimum wage, better yet, even twice the amount of minimum wage which is still by the governments own standards, poverty levels. People often times do have to overspend just to survive; making low amounts of money doesn’t pay the bills. As for the idea that people are having children which they can’t afford to have, yes, in the cases of the LDS religion especially people are having waay to many kids, but they are also indoctrinated by the church “authority” that they have to do so in order to get into heaven. People are also forced to pay tithings to the LDS church as well as other churches which make sure that people believe htey are ging to hell if they don’t. Then you have taxes which people have to pay, getting screwed over on those, while the government continues to give tax breaks to the wealthiest. Inequality in America is a huge problem, while the system isn’t addressing, but only seeking to make worst. At it, the capitalist system seeks to exploit foreign countries, enforcing neoliberal economic policies which do not benefit the people, and then ends up creating worser economic conditions in those countries which lead to things such as illegal immigration, which in the end leads to people coming to America who are either becoming slaves through the governments guest-worker program, or working for lesser amounts of money then Americans can afford to work for, which doesn’t help the situation of American jobs-something which can’t be blamed on immigrants, and only can be blamed on the system. Criminal record is also a difficulty on getting a job, as you said. It becomes difficult to blame it on them though, considering the fact that crime is mostly a result of the breakdown of social order which is mostly caused by the inequality that the system once again creates.
“Whatever your own circumstances which have you feeling like a “slave to the system” you are free to go someplace you think will be better. Start from where you are and decide were you are able to go where opportunity is greater. Whatever our county’s faults — I can’t think of anywhere I would rather be.”
First off, your idea that one can really escape capitalism is difficult when the US through wars, imperialism, and other actions have created basically a global capitalist economy. And anywhere that doesn’t have policies which are friendly to capitalism (thus unfriendly to the people) really isn’t safe to live, because the US is likely to take some action to create it into a free market system eventually.
Even if I could go somewhere else though, why should I have to leave? Why should I have to seek out another place to live? Afterall, this countries is supposed to belong to the people, not a small minority, and when the people are getting screwed over, they have an obligation to not just pack up and leave, they have an obligation to make things better for themselves. As i have said before, I believe the change which would make things better is an anarchist society. Capitalism and State go hand and hand with each other, and oppression is an element with both. Even ignoring my anarchist perspective, if you look at what this government is supposed to provide the people with according to the constitution, and the bill of rights, this government cleary no longer does. We are now subject as people to human rights abuses, discrmination based on class or race, police brutality, oppressive laws, intrusive legislation and laws such as the Patriot Act, we have no habeus corpus if we are suspected of terrorism because, well, according to one Senator, habeus corpus for prisoners at Gitmo would create a clog in the system, etc. So basically we have a system which our rights can no longer be granted to us because it will create a clog in the system, we have a government which wages w ars for the sake of empire (something which numeerous presidents have warned against) and corporate profits, doesn’t care about the people or what we want, amongst many other problems. We are forced to do things we don’t want, work many hours for shitty pay, obey laws and rules which restrict our freedom, and largely are not allowed to do what we want unless the State feels it won’t hurt their standing too much, hell, if we peacefully gather to protest a war we risk getting tear gas shot at us. So, it isn’t that I “feel” because of my circumtances that I am subject to slavey, it is because the reality of the situation shows that we are essentially slaves.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 23, 2007 at 12:41 PM
Scorp-
Even if the US can afford to go to another war, the result of that war will ultmately cost the public, and only benefit corporations and the already wealthy. Social programs have already been slashed, with Bush’s war in Iraq, and if you really insist that w can spend more money and everything will be just fine, then why the hell is the countries infrastructure falling apart? That money that is spent on war could be spent to do things such as, oh, fix bridges, and other things that are neccessary.
The money which is going to be directed towards attacking Iran is only a theft from the poor and the hungry of the world, as we further direct money away from helping those in poverty, and those in hunger, as well as spending money on humanitarian missions and such, and continue to spend more and more money on war. An initial attack may not be that costly in your mind, but the effect of being at war with multiple nations, as, attacking Iran will surely piss off Russia and other nations, is going to cost more than you are taking into consideration. Not to mention the fact that if we attack Iran it will further destabilize Iraq, costing more money.
The cost in the end though in dollars isn’t as relevant as the cost of lives. We’ve killed millions in Iraq and who knows how many more will end up dead as a result of an attack on Iran. If we attack Iran, civilians are going to be killed, which is going to create a rise in terrorism obviously, and will help out organizations such as Al Qaeda, why is it people like you are so naive that you don’t see this?
And the United States has killed more Iraqi’s than Saddam ever has, but to say that Saddam alone killed them is difficult, because of US complicity in all of his crimes. We sold him Weapons of Mass Destruction, we sold him chemical warfare, and oh yes, it was our apache helicopters which he needed in order to use the chemical weapons which resulted in the genocide he committed. But oh no, America’s governmetn is far to perfect to be guilty right? Has it ever occured to you that you have the same attitude as the Nazi’s themselves did with the German government? You have strong nationalism which doesn’t benefit youo or the rest of us, further going along with yoru slavery, and indoctrination by this system will not make things better.
“Democratic, rule-of-law capitalism is the only thing that stands between the United States and another round of world totalitarian excess.”
Give me a break. Democracy and Capitalism are the two most incompatible things there are. The interests of the market are held above the interests of the people at all times, and the decisions, the laws, and the rules are always reflective of the wants of the elite class. Anytime a society is divided into classes, you cannot define that as freedom or democracy. Yu have a flawed definition of democracy. The system is corporatist, it works for the corporations, and creates wage slaves out of the people, we are forced to serve people who don’t act in our interests. We are in a society of masters and slaves, and the masters need the slaves, the slaves don’t need the masters. This system is modeled off of the ideas of Miltin Friedman, and Friedmans ideas are hardly democratic. Neoliberal economic policies do not represent freedom, democracy, or anything else you want to say America represents, once you stop believing this just because those who are in positions of power told you this, the sooner you will be better off.
“You collectivists and anarchists think you can make the ideal world by imposing your failed values on the American Republic. You are as dumb as dog shit. Never happen.”
if our values are failed then the values which you espouse that America believes in are failed. We belive in freedom, equality, and peace, and a society which the peopple come together collectively to decide on issues, that is democracy in the truest since of the word. Our ideas won’t happen if stupid people like you keep on following leaders which profess to represent peoples interests when they really don’t. You attack us because you dont’ understand us. You probably go with the popular idea that we believe in chaos and destruction, ideas which you get from authorites. Any system which forces you to obey, and follow laws is oppressive, and we, are far past our dependency on a hierarchical structure, where you, are apparently too afraid to abandon them. Apparently you can’t live without them, and have some dependency on following others because it is to difficult for you to accept the idea that you are in control of your own life. Your type of people are the same people who go to church loyally on Sunday and follow a god and a Christ because you have this sense of obedience which you’ve been taught you can’t live without. Anarchists are free in all the ways you will never be, we live in all the ways which you would like to think that you do but in reality lack the understanding that you are deprived of the means to live in that way by the system. The things you follow are simply abstract ideas which don’t physically exist, it takes indoctrinating the public and brainwashing them to continue to suppress the reality that we have lived without those ideas in the past, and we can do it again.
The idea that capitalism is setting us apart from totalitarian regimes and such is very naive. Capitalist ideas flourish within the totalitarian regime in China, which has adopted the ideas of disaster capitalism from Friedman. And capitalism is the system which creates the governments which you deem to be so horrible and keeps them in power, the capitalism which has flourished through Latin America has been a prime example, the system which you propose goes so well with democracy, was used by military dictatorships ran off of human rights abuses (which capitalism promotes).
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 23, 2007 at 1:01 PM
Many important factors are different. During WW2 the top tax bracket was over 90 percent!
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 23, 2007 at 2:13 PM
whattheheck, your WW2 body count is short for many millions, unless you don’t consider the rest of the deaths as “significant”. Believe me, they were as they are now, most people don’t want a war, any war because it kills them or their loved ones, ruins their land and changes their lives forever.
Wolf, don’t you worry, nobody is trying to impose anything on your American Rep
Posted by Maria on Sep 23, 2007 at 4:18 PM
Sorry, Wolf, I didn’t mean you, I meant scorp. The problem is I mixed you up because you seem to think alike in many respects. Peace be with you, while I continue hoping no more innocent blood is shed in the name of the empire, be it in Asia or in your land.
Posted by Maria on Sep 23, 2007 at 4:22 PM
Anarcho -
... the result of that war will ultmately cost the public ...
You are assuming that 09/11, Beirut, and Mogadishu were cost free. Can you justify that novel historical and economic interpretation? Every time a person stands in line at the airport, it reasonably costs him $50 per hour, money that was not required and time that was not lost before 09/11. A reasonable cost for 09/11 is somewhere north of $1 trillion, and still counting after all these years.
Social programs have already been slashed ...
No shot, Sheerluck. The biggest social program was Welfare, brought to us by LBJ and his “Great Society”. Several years ago, George Will stated that the total cost of the Welfare program was $6 trillion, (comparable to the national debt, which I’m sure you also complain about) but in extensive research of the federal budget records from the 1970s to the 1990s, I was only able to identify about $3 trillion specifically identified as Welfare. But that $3 trillion did not include housing and other programs that probably were included in Welfare.
You know, of course, that Bubba ended the Welfare program for good reason; Welfare had a massive destructive effect on black families, besides being hideously expensive. Pat Moynihan stated that LBJ’s Welfare program would be a disaster, and it was.
That money that is spent on war could be spent to do things such as, oh, fix bridges, and other things that are neccessary.
Your off-the-wall observations are classic. Bubba stupidly allowed the dot.com Bubba Bubble to develop, leading to unsustainable surpluses, and he should have realized that all bubbles eventually pop. The Bubba Bubble began falling apart in the last year of Clinton’s presidency, when the surpluses stopped growing, two quarters had negative growth, the DOW peaked and started down, and the NASDAQ lost half its value.
When you have the world’s most productive economy, and you can borrow money for 2-3%, and get a 10% return on investment, you should be borrowing all you can from the Chinese, Japanese, Europes, whomever. You should not be pissing away good money to build a surplus.
The three primary needs of this country are Social Security, medical care, and infrastructure. Why in the hell Bubba wasted all those years paying down the debt defies belief. Like just how stupid is that son-of-a-bitch?
Democracy and Capitalism are the two most incompatible things there are.
You shitting me, boy?
How about Communism and Democracy? The Soviet Union collapsed of inefficiency and corruption, does that give you the tiniest clue that Communism and Democracy might be incompatible? The Soviets held regular elections, did that make them a Democracy?
Of course, you and your ilk go on and on and on and on about how bad things are in the USA, but who believes the Collectivist propaganda?
The system is corporatist, it works for the corporations, and creates wage slaves out of the people.
The big joke for years in the Soviet Union was, “They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work.” That was why the system was so corrupt and inefficient.
You probably go with the popular idea that we believe in chaos and destruction, ideas which you get from authorites.
Um, no, I get the not-so-popular idea from Antonio Gramsci, who laid out a specific program of social communism, as opposed to economic communism, which he early realized to be a an abject failure. Social communism is a plan to subvert institutions (media, schools, churches, courts, politics) in order to install a Collectivist tyranny and create the New Soviet Man in the USA.
Don’t worry, you are perfectly safe as long as you don’t resort to violence and fraud, as Lenin and Stalin did in very similar circumstances, and Soros and Hillary are now flirting with.
Posted by scorp on Sep 23, 2007 at 7:01 PM
Anarcho,
Slavery in the U.S. is only a mind set. I’m not saying you SHOULD leave, just that you COULD leave.
I’m also a victim of the outsourcing. I have the names of 56 individuals I know who have lost their jobs, been forced to take early retirement or have gone out of business. (My case is one of the latter.)
I first began to see it happening in the mid1980s when a fastener mfg. client shifted their operation to Taiwan. I see the NAFTA vote in 1993 as the “official” blessing by congress and wrote to everyone I could think of protesting it as stupid and detrimental to our economy. Our representatives fell for the line that it would provide the consumer with better prices. The National Chamber of Commerce pointed to the increasing U.S. exports (Yes, to those companies which used to be in this country was ignored.) The AFL-CIO answered essentially saying you mind your business and we’ll mind ours. My clients quoted the “competitive advantage” theory and said they had no choice if they wanted to stay in business. The NRA — one of the most vocal supporters of U.S. citizens’ rights— said, “We are a one issue organization.”
I thought for sure the UAW would not stand for it. Surely people would rebel against the emasculating of U.S. industry. Boy, was I wrong!
Just as the Nazis took one group at a time instead of all at once — those nearing retirement went quietly, those in middle management fell as individuals, and those still left thought, “It won’t happen to me.”
Certainly some in positions of power knew what was happening and how they could benefit. But after reading a score of books pro and con about globalization, I see most of them as following their Econ 101 textbook theories right down the line.
Now, there are websites calling for opposition to what is happening, but all they want is your dollars — in most cases you cannot even send an email.
One client told me they were insisting their suppliers lower their prices just as Wal-Mart and K-Mart had done to them. When I said I would not do that to my suppliers since they had provided good service at reasonable prices and they had to earn a living he said I would go out of business. He was right, but because companies like his (my customers) are gone too.
It is greed at all levels which have brought us to this sorry condition. Not just the greed of those at the top, but also the individuals who went along rather than speak out in the board rooms, the union meeting and the single owner companies like mine who gave in to the demands of the Big Box stores and companies.
You say you are “willing to fight” to change the “system”. Just what do you think you can do?
Change will come in due time. Many people are still in denial. My friends who are a bit older and retired before me still can’t see it. But — when enough people feel the pain, the dollar is low enough and the U.S. is no longer the consumer of world output — the flow will reverse.
Everything is interconnected. The current subprime lending scam is a good example. We know the pain is being felt by the home buyer who bought beyond his means — but there are big time investors who thought they could benefit and are now caught it the web. There will be thousands of over priced homes whose prices will come down to the affordability level. Greed provides its own chastisement.
There is a FREE MARKET! Not the one the financial analysts preach, but the one of supply and demand. No one can control Mr. Market indefinitely. My son was in the Soviet Union in 1984. For 70 years they had set government prices and production quotas — it didn’t work. The real price on everything was set by the black market where the buyers offered what they were willing to pay and the sellers took what they were willing to accept.
If you find a short cut let me know.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 24, 2007 at 7:02 AM
Maria,
Yes, you are correct. There are estimates of as many as 60 million deaths. Stalin alone is believed to have been responsible for 20 million. I was thinking in comparative U.S. losses WW2/ Iraq.
However much people may not want war
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 24, 2007 at 7:10 AM
“Peace be with you, while I continue hoping no more innocent blood is shed in the name of the empire, be it in Asia or in your land”
Maria - your hopes are my hopes. The details of how to get from here to there vary, but nonetheless, we both hope for peace and harmony in the world at large.
Posted by wolf on Sep 24, 2007 at 7:44 AM
anarcho-liberation - i do not know where or how you live, but it sounds like an entirely different place (mindset?) than where i hail from. Here (the land of the free?) i am able to decide what profession i wish to pursue, how many children i want, what religion i wish to follow (if any), and how i wish to allocate my financial and other resources. My life is full of my choices, some good and some bad. In a wide variety of ways (antibiotics come immediately to mind!), these are the best of times, ever. (Disclaimer: No implication is made to project these amazing times forward to the uncertain future, where anything may happen.)
You also wrote: “You said that people are irresponsible with their incomes, and mismanaging them because they can
Posted by wolf on Sep 24, 2007 at 7:44 AM
Wolf said:
“How sad it must be to grow up in such primitive conditions, when wealth and knowledge are both available to them. I pity those who are unlucky enough to be born there. But perhaps they will come out of savagery and ignorance and eventually find they way into the modern world (rather than attempting to destroy same). One can only hope, for their sakes and ours.”
That’s how I feel about people growing up in Texas under the radical Christian fundamentalists. All fundamentalist could stand to read Richard Dawkin’s book the God Delusion IMO.
Posted by mrraven on Sep 24, 2007 at 11:54 AM
mrraven has an interesting point that emphasizes my own. Even fundamentalist Texas is **far** more progressive than say, Saudi Arabia or anyplace in Africa. No forced FGM, no requirements to wear burkas, the ability for women to go to school (or the ice cream shop for that matter!) and choose their own careers/husbands/lives. Yep, compared to some western places, Texas may be a bit conservative, but compared to the middle east and Africa (and much of Asia) it is a wonderful place to be.
I see little distinction between fundamentalist Christians versus fundamentalist atheists. Both have faith in the unknowable, they merely differ in the details of said faith.
Posted by wolf on Sep 24, 2007 at 1:14 PM
Wolf the big difference is empirical scientific hypotheses are testable under double blind conditions where as religious beliefs are not.
So are you schilling for Christian fundamentalists who I see as little different than Iranian Muslim fundamentalists as in reverend “god hates fags” Phelps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps
I would no more want to live in his town than I would want to live under the Mullahs.
Posted by mrraven on Sep 24, 2007 at 1:22 PM
Wolf said:
“The trick to not being a wage slave is simple. Save a minimum of 10% of your income, preferably 20%. Invest in a broad based mutual fund (401K or IRA are optimal) and wait a few decades. Then decide what to do with the rest of your life.”
Try telling that to someone working at Wal-Mart with a sick child and no health insurance whose choice is take the kid to the doctor, pay the rent, heat the house or eat for the month (chose ONE). And no it’s nothing to do with choices, people ARE going to be doing these jobs for the foreseeable future because gasp we don’t live the Jetsons future where robots do such labor. Of course your dirty secret is you don’t care as long as you get yours. Well don’t be surprised if the chickens come home to roost bearing pitchforks outside the gated communities some day… I won’t cry a single tear when the manager and ownership class to which you belong is deposed for you are 15% and the rest of us are 85% of the population. 85% beats 15% every time, count on it…
Posted by mrraven on Sep 24, 2007 at 1:38 PM
mrraven - While i agree with you that Phelps is no good, i assert that he is quite far from the mainstream of US Christianity. He also has no control over the government, unlike the Mullahs. (Yea for the USA!)
I would assert that the most important things in life are not scientific. Love comes immediately to mind, but you might also think of other things that are relevant to your own life as well. I am unaware of any proof that God does not exist (or that he does); thus i keep an open mind (what we do know is that the universe (multiverse?) exists, we have no idea of how or why, ultimately).
I agree that the circumstances which you describe above do not lend themselves to saving. But they are not typical either. For the vast majority of us, we can save 10-20%, we just don’t because we want new shiny stuff. Furthermore note that the assertion was made (not by me!) that “people making as much as six figure incomes virtual indentured servants.
Posted by wolf on Sep 24, 2007 at 3:10 PM
If you talk about a “broad based mutual fund (401K or IRA are optimal) ” I don’t have to “make up stories” I KNOW that you are a yuppie, I KNOW that the MAJORITY of people working crappy service jobs don’t speak that way, the sad thing is you are too far out of touch to even know that, sort of like Bush I being dumbfounded by a supermarket scanner.
No peace without justice I hope you have nightmares of hungry homeless children ASSHOLE!!!!!
Posted by mrraven on Sep 24, 2007 at 3:25 PM
Wolf-
You conveniently fail to address all the points which refute your claims, other than simply saying the same repetitive bullshit arguments which rely on your faith in authority and America. You think your government and your country are so great and it’s time you wkae up and realize it’s not. America killed millions of people in World War II, and people like you are going to say it was a noble fight cause we had to stop fascism, yet it was your fucking government which youadore so much which sat there and supported Germany (majority of American’s too), your fucking government that supported Fascism, that chose to do nothing to stop fascism when the war was starting up in Spain (although there were Americans who had the courage to go over there and fight in Spains civil war with our Spanish comrades when YOUR government made it illegal to do so). You speak so proudly that you live in America and not some other shithole but it’s the US government that is making the rest of the world its shithole, and allowing the corporations to continue to exploit them. The capitalistsystem which you love so much is the same system which is exporting jobs in America and relying on little kids in some other third world country working 12 hour days for 3cents an hour in sweatshop labor conditions. It’s your government which claims to be fighting a war on terror, yet is fine when its corporations are supporting right-wing paramlitary death squads in Columbia. Your government which is sponsoring terrorist actions in Iran. Your government which gave power to Osama Bin Laden, and gave all of those pesky terrorists in Afghanistan the weapons that they are now fighting us with. Your government which left people there to die in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, and it was your government htat knew that the levees were going to break, and did nothing about it, because it would harm its public image to much. Your government did nothing to prevent the 9/11 attacks even though it knew that something was going to happen, and your great commander in chief which you love so much was given a PDB directly saying that Osama bin Laden was determined to strike in the US, and even said that he wanted to attack New York, and what did your fearless commander do? He went on vacation. Your government that is torturing people across the world. Your government which is kidnapping citizens of other countries because they are “suspected” of terrorism, and taking them to secret prisons which will torture them. Your government which is allowing corporations such as Hersheys to use human slavery. Your government which has the blood of millions of innocent people on its hands because it, not the people, didn’t feel that the people had a right to choose communism. Your government which overthrew the democratically elected government of Chile, because it was marxist. Your government supported the rise to power of a military dictatorship which killed, tortured, kidnapped, and enforceed a brutal reign throughout its years because they wanted a capitalist system instead (which Pinochet followed with), because that freedom to choose their goverenment was to harmful to USinterests to let them decide Marxist. Your govenrment is killing millions in Iraq. Your government created the displacement of millions of people in Iraq, Your government has cuased millions of refugees to come out of Iraq. Your governmeent which overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran, and installed the military dictatorship of the Shah which once again was repressive, and brutal on its people. Your government supports Saudi Arabia(Israel too), the biggest human rights violator in the world. Your government inititated Operation Condor. Your government which continues to discrminate agianst indigenous people. A simple look at the news, shows all of the ugly, and evil policies which your government supports.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 24, 2007 at 6:22 PM
Wolf-
Now, you have based everyone of your comments on the same fucking ideology which is America is great, and America is the best, and America is free. You fail to show through facts how it is, and only rely on the same arguments. America is ran by corrupt leaders, and authority figures who work for their own benefits. The system which you love is slowly becoming more and more of a disaster capitalist system. If you read what Friedman actually said, and believed in, and read what is really happening you’d realize a lot more. Everything good in this country is a result of the people forcing the government against its will to give it to us. And those people which have provided so much great, are dissidents, and activists which have never been right-wing, which you apparently are. In fact, the labor movement which provided better working conditions, was largely the result of anarchists, and was opposed by capitalists of course. It was demanded by the people that better working conditions be created, and so they were, it wasn’t the government, and it wasn’t the capitalists which gave it to them. Many have been killed by your government in the struggle for better labor conditions, and now, people like you shame those peoples memories. You are one of those people who has relied upon the history taught you by authority, the type of history which teaches the state’s perspective, and never shows what actually happened. I suggest you read some Howard Zinn books in order to break free of this.
You love this country, and say that we have such great freedom, and democracy. I dissagre with you obviously, but what good we do have in this country, is in your mind something which the State has provided us with because it is good, when in reality, it is only there because people have risen up, the good things which you love are the result of dissidents, activists, anarchists, socialists, communists, and others who have realized the flaws within this system and government. Thsoe are the very people which authority in America teaches you to hate and think are evil. You believe America is great because you don’t want to have to get off your ass and make a difference to make things better. As you think anarchy is such a flawed idea, you put your faith in right-wing leaders who want to do away with the government anyways, because the government is imposing too many regulations on the market in their minds. They are the ones who want a truly free market, in which the corporations are allowed to do whatever they want for the sake of profit, and exploit us even more. Their dreams are a country where the people have no say so, but the market determines every aspect of life. This is not democracy, nor is it freedom, for the needs of the people and market, are as I said earlier, largely different.
You want to talk about religion? You think we are this perfect society where every religion is treated equally? What about wiccans? What about Muslims who are rounded up because we assume they are terrorists? I mean, cmon, ever since 9/11 we have looked at every muslim as a terrorist, and have locked many of them up. Are you going to tell me that is religious freedom? I can’t escape Christianity no matter where I go, nor can I escape people preaching about your feeble Christ. We hear slogans of “Jesus saves” everywhere we go, and have our government passing laws based off of their religious beliefs (birth control decisions are one example). The majority of the people who have been in the Bush regime have graduated from Pat Robertsons religious school, and the Republicans which you seem to follow so blindly, were all deeply saddened when the hate mongerer piece of shit Jerry Falwell died.
If you want to be enslaved, that’s fine, but don’t give me this line of shit of freedom, because your idea of freedom is really just oppression. If you really want to continue to comment as well, then I would encourage you to actually refute the facts which I present, but I guess that would be too difficult to do the research huh? Having to think outside the box, instead of just believing in everything your “leaders” tell you, is a difficult task for someone so indoctrinated.
”
You should read more carefully before making such silly assertions as above! Your response includes both a made up opinion you ascribe to me and your straw man reply. Very sloppy!”
Aren’t you cute? I’m so glad that you had an ability to deconstruct my argument by saying it’s silly and sloppy. Either you read too far into my statement or you are too ignorant to understand. You once again fail to discuss the points that I raised. And reaelly, I’m just going to go with what mrraven said because he hit the nail right on the head:
“The trick to not being a wage slave is simple. Save a minimum of 10% of your income, preferably 20%. Invest in a broad based mutual fund (401K or IRA are optimal) and wait a few decades. Then decide what to do with the rest of your life.”
Try telling that to someone working at Wal-Mart with a sick child and no health insurance whose choice is take the kid to the doctor, pay the rent, heat the house or eat for the month (chose ONE). And no it’s nothing to do with choices, people ARE going to be doing these jobs for the foreseeable future because gasp we don’t live the Jetsons future where robots do such labor. Of course your dirty secret is you don’t care as long as you get yours. Well don’t be surprised if the chickens come home to roost bearing pitchforks outside the gated communities some day… I won’t cry a single tear when manager and ownership class to which you belong is deposed for you are 15% and the rest of are 85% of the population. 85% beats 15% every time, count on it…” I too, would like to hear a response to that.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 24, 2007 at 6:23 PM
Scorp,
Last night while watching “The War” I noticed the B-24s produced at Ford had over a million parts. We were able to produce a plane every 63 minutes!
Look at us now that our manufactruring has been deported.
NAFTA
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 25, 2007 at 6:24 AM
Anarcho,
I realize there are many people who fit your example of the Wal-Mart employee. Their numbers have been on the increase for some time now. Unless or until a person or someone close to him is in that situation it is hard to realize or understand.
Maybe you are just venting at Wolf because it is impossible to communicate with the ones who could/should do something about it. There are a couple of men in congress who have been addressing the issue, but are vastly out numbered. Bernie Sanders and Byron Dorgan come immediately to mind. Unfortunately, after the drubbing Perot took I have not heard any candidate for the White House come close to the problem. He was only wrong about the sound effects— a slow hssssss instead of a Giant Sucking Sound so far.
Wolf,
I recommend the book, “Nickel and Dimed” by Barbara Ehrenreich to get a feeling for what many hard working people are facing.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 25, 2007 at 6:56 AM
Hi WTH -
I agree that some fraction of Americans are unable to save due being employed in low paying jobs. Many of these same people are better off in later years, either through getting more job training or simply by advancing up the ladder. Some, of course, never advance and never do better. This is unfortunate, but has always been that way and is likely to continue into the foreseeable future.
However, my assertion is that the vast majority of us (but not everyone) can save if we choose to. Many do not *choose* to, but buy nicer cars, electronic toys, cell phones, etc. The example given by theloneous was that people making 6 figures were having a hard time making ends meet (!!!). While i do not doubt that, i do think it is very likely due to a lack of personal responsibility and not the fault of government policies. One might think that readers of this site would be advocating less consumerism (as i do), which would naturally lead to more personal wealth over time. . .
Having started out quite poor myself, i am a strong advocate of education. It has at least two major benefits: broadening the mind and enhancing ones earning potential. Plus in many cases, it can lead to finding a career that is more than just a way to get money - something personally fulfilling and also useful to society. It certainly worked for me and can/does work for many many people.
Posted by wolf on Sep 25, 2007 at 8:10 AM
“Some fraction” equals more than a third including the homeless, “discouraged workers,” and the increasing number of service workers as the U.S. de-industrializes under the shock therapy of corporate globalization. Again Wolf (good name for you BTW) your dirty secret is that you don’t care as long as you have yours. Well I say a pox on your house for an attitude of not caring that so many millions suffer both here in the U.S. and in the third world because of the policies you advocate.
Posted by mrraven on Sep 25, 2007 at 10:34 AM
“Well I say a pox on your house for an attitude of not caring that so many millions suffer both here in the U.S. and in the third world because of the policies you advocate.”
Yeah advocating savings for those who can and education in general is pretty darnright nasty of me (really, a pox?). Not to mention my persistent politeness, even when attacked with little or no provocation. Yep, i can really see where you are coming from - the question is can you?
Anyway, i hope that you can work out your personal ssues and find a measure of happiness. Best of luck to you and yours. Goodbye my surly friend.
Posted by wolf on Sep 25, 2007 at 11:33 AM
Wolf when you are living high off the hog it is real damn easy to be polite. Try doing physical labor all day and you may come to a different view of the world. Further you straw man twisted my words, the people I am talking about are those who will NEVER be able to save no matter what they do. So yes I repeat a pox on your house for endorsing policies that cause people to suffer. I wish you sickness and unemployment with no health insurance THEN perhaps you would know how it feels you unfeeling cretin. I suspect if you lived in those conditions SUDDENLY you would have a miraculous conversion to leftism, after all when your ox is getting gored laissez affaire crony capitalism doesn’t look to good, does it? New age feel good “positive” pablum from the upper middle class has never impressed me and it never will, for it is the thin veneer of civility below which lies policies that lead to people with weeping infected sores living under bridges. Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make a better cake of society, and again I will cry no tears when your egg is broken, for I have cried all my tears for the homeless and for the brave activists (including myself) who have suffered state repression. As Malcom X said sometimes the chickens come home to roost, and there are millions of Wal-Mart employed, homeless, people of color, gay, people living in ecological wastelands, and sick with no insurance chickens so beware rich and smug.
Posted by mrraven on Sep 25, 2007 at 11:54 AM
Wolf,
There was a time when I would have agreed with everything you say here. But no longer.
I have too many friends who are not doing anywhere near as well as when they were younger. My own income dropped steadily from the early 1990s until my last client left in 2004.
Job retraining is the stock answer from nearly all who have not missed a paycheck or lost benefits.
I was continuously “retraining” from 1990 to 2004. I made the switch to digital and spent nearly $100,000 on hardware and software over that time frame just to stay in business.
Except for two 2-year periods (when my son worked with me) I was a one man operation. When I compared the last ten years before computers to the first ten with, I found I was working 27.3 percent more non-billable time at work — mostly learning software upgrades.
Today anyone who is not computer literate is severely limited, but knowing how to use them is no great advantage — it is now expected.
So what should a person retrain to do? What do you do and how when your job goes to India, if you are say, 50 with two or three kids in or approaching college age ? What do you do if a member of your family has a major health problem after you lose your job?
You would move to where work is more plentiful, but with high unemployment in your town, everyone is trying to sell his house at the same time?
How can you take time to go back to school? What if you find another job with no health care? My barber is 58, has had open heart surgery, has major prescription expenses and a $15,000 deductible. His premiums come to $10,000 per year — his wife is on another policy at an additional cost.
What do you do when there are no jobs available in your town for which you are qualified, and you cannot afford the transportation to interview where there is one?
These are then kind of things pointed out from first hand experience by Barbara Ehrenreich in her book. Wal-Mart is one of the jobs she took. What a hell hole!
I was fortunate. I got my first job in 1955 and was NEVER turned down for any job I applied for. After starting my own business in 1966 if I lost a client I always found a replacement almost immediately — until I was able to keep so busy I often turned away work1990.
This era must be especially difficult for those at the lowest end of the job scale. I am continuously (pleasantly) surprised there has been little or no violence aimed at illegal aliens yet. Added to their problem is the older, better educated worker who must continue to work and will take that job at McDonald’s or Wal-Mart.
Another book with concrete examples of how hard it is to get a living wage job is an autobiographical one, “Selling Ben Cheever.”
Are you still working? If you are untouched by the economical revolution — you have been very lucky.
I for one, definitely blame government policies which have favored corporate management and pushed globalization with no attempt to moderate it or aid those people being displaced by it. I find it interesting how some of the same people who used the FREE MARKET reason for no gov’t intervention are crying for the gov’t to bail out the sub prime scammers.
Tax cuts are only meaningful to those who are making enough to need to pay taxes.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 25, 2007 at 11:57 AM
wth -
You ask a lot of thoughtful questions in your post. While no one can answer them all for all people. there are solutions for many out there. For instance, when my wife’s job disappeared, she retrained to be a nurse. It is a profession that we expect will be in high demand over our lifetimes and contributes nicely to society. Note that this “solution” works best for two income families and (in our case, at least) might involve getting student loans (which we found to be very accessible).
In any case, those who can save should save. Hopefully for retirement, but also in case of unemployment or other financial disaster. Living below ones means is, to my mind, one of the the secrets to happiness. (And yes i know that not everyone can do this, but the majority can and should.)
“This era must be especially difficult for those at the lowest end of the job scale”
I agree that this era can be difficult, but doubt it is anywhere near as difficult as bygone eras. Imagine being “free” on the frontier farm - crops fail and you may starve. No health insurance or care much of the time. No electronics or luxury toys. This era seems to be the best to me, for both rich and poor. As in all eras, being poor still sucks, but unlike most eras, many poor people here have enough to eat (obesity being a significant issue, even for the poor), cheap entertainment (color tv, cable, dvds) and preventative medicine (vaccines).
“My barber is 58, has had open heart surgery, major prescription expenses and a $15,000 deductible and his premium come to $10,000 per year
Posted by wolf on Sep 25, 2007 at 12:46 PM
Wolf sed: “...i have toyed with the idea of changing professions in a few years.”
Do you even understand you are part of a privileged minority Wolf? Do you think the person working full time at Wal-Mart and then coming home to deal with issues of family and house has the time, energy, or money to do what you propose? I would estimate roughly a third of U.S. citizens are STUCK in a position where there is no time for job retraining you speak of, but rather a life of toil, suffering with no end in sight. You are thus condemning through your philosophy 100 MILLION people in the U.S. to a life of hard ship and suffering. If I seem angry it’s because I believe game theorists are right that one ought to respond tit for tat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat
to the behavior of our fellow citizens. In this case you ought not to be surprised that your tit of a laissez affair philosophy that leads to suffering for millions (which yes I have experienced) leads to my tat of wanting to see you suffer in turn. If you want to see a virtuous circle of cooperation you must help those people around you Wolf least they turn on you in extreme anger, again you have been warned, if you continue to advocate for laissez affaire corporate globalization do not be surprised that those who suffer from such a policy decide to rise up against you. Again tit for tat motherf*cker.
Posted by mrraven on Sep 25, 2007 at 1:02 PM
Hi, y’all!
Does anyone believe that Iran would be trying to build a nuclear weapon if they were not afraid we were going to invade them next? Nuclear weapons are the only ones we respect, and since President Bushllit’s invasion of Iraq the Iranians have been trying to build one. Note: since the invasion of Iraq the Iranians have been trying to build one.
Thanks Bushllit for wrecking the Middle- East for the next century. Hope the oil profits were worth it!
Posted by Aunty Rightwing on Sep 25, 2007 at 1:16 PM
I thought we were discussing the possibility of USA attacking Iran, but it seems that the subject has changed to learn how smart wolf is, how polite, and why doesn’t everyone imitate his savings policy. I could fill several pages telling you about my experiences but that wouldn’t help anybody. The knot we have before us is the way USA has been producing single-handedly different wars for the past decades, while Europe, Japan, and most of the world seem to have learned through pain what a war means and have refused to take part in them. Someone proposed in this discussion that a coalition be formed against Irak and Iran but I’m afraid you will continue to be alone on perpetrating wars. Have you considered the fact that while you claim to be the “democracy” of the world you haven’t developed a moral sense of respect to others who may think or want for their countries another view? All your wars have been outside your frontiers, while most of your population went on with their lives as if nothing was happening. You have been the only nation to use nuclear weapons against others and I am sure you still have them stacked somewhere handy. You have been behind dictatorships in Latin America, training military in the School of the Americas to torture and disappear people. Latin America has learned its lesson and has been trying to live in peace and develop its own way of living, in spite of the IMF which sent them once and again on the wrong tracks. Please, continue with your polite life, save as much as you can but don’t try to sell your “American dream” to those who have to work like mad to support a family or who live in fear. Wearing a burka or being a Muslim isn’t in itself dangerous to anybody, the way some of you talk about prospective wars, whether they would be costly or profitable is not only dangerous, but it shows a despise towards others which is despicable.
Posted by Maria on Sep 25, 2007 at 2:48 PM
Bravo Maria, clap, clap, clap…
Posted by mrraven on Sep 25, 2007 at 5:41 PM
Whattheheck, sorry that I overlooked your reply and please forgive the lateness of my counter-reply.
“Love your enemies? Turn the other cheek?”
Yes ... and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
“Would you do away with the RCMP?”
No. The RCMP did not invade and occupy Iraq and is not threatening Iran with the same.
“Check out history - without enforcement civilization would disintegrate. Who, how and to what degree is debatable, but not IF. “
I am watching civilization in Iraq disintegrate and the USA is primarily responsible for it. Who will enforce the law on the war criminals in your government and bring them to justice?
———
“Nuke “mistake”- What’s the big deal? For decades during the cold war there were B-52s with nukles flying 24/7. Until armed, which requires deliberate action, they are not a problem. “
The big deal is that mistakes with nuclear weapons are a big deal. I am aware that during the cold war there were bombers loaded with nukes. Are you aware that there have been accidents where these planes have crashed and that the USA has lost more than a few nukes before.
Selected Accidents Involving Nuclear Weapons 1950-1993
“What makes you or anyone think the Russians and several others (including us) don’t still have missiles at the ready.”
What makes you think I think this. Nice straw man.
“Do you think on 9/11 those guys flying into buildings wouldn’t have loved to have been able to have nukes?”
Very weak argument ... yawn. Keep knocking down those straw men.
“You reason with them if you like. I prefer to have weapons handy.”
I am reasoning with you (or trying to at least) but I will not resort to violence to solve our differences.
Aunty, you state ” Nuclear weapons are the only ones we respect, and since President Bushllit’s invasion of Iraq the Iranians have been trying to build one. Note: since the invasion of Iraq the Iranians have been trying to build one. “
I will ask you the same question I asked Wolf when he made a similar statement that alleged the Iranians are building nuclear weapons. Where is the evidence for your allegation? Did President Bush say so?
Here is an example of evidence that refutes your allegation:
“A recent House of Representatives committee report on Iran’s nuclear capability is “outrageous and dishonest” in trying to make a case that Tehran’s program is geared toward making weapons, a senior official of the U.N. nuclear watchdog has said.”
IAEA: Iran Nuclear Report ‘Outrageous’ - U.N. Blasts House Committee Claims On Tehran’s Weapon-Making Capability
Here is another bit of evidence that refutes your allegation:
“The Leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has issued the Fatwa that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that the Islamic Republic of Iran shall never acquire these weapons. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who took office just recently, in his inaugural address reiterated that his government is against weapons of mass destruction and will only pursue nuclear activities in the peaceful domain. The leadership of Iran has pledged at the highest level that Iran will remain a non-nuclear-weapon state party to the NPT and has placed the entire scope of its nuclear activities under IAEA safeguards and additional protocol, in addition to undertaking voluntary transparency measures with the agency that have even gone beyond the requirements of the agency’s safeguard system.”
Iran is a nuclear fuel cycle technology holder, a capability which is exclusively for peaceful purposes
Now, I am not so naive as to believe anything and everything someone says but considering the lies in the run-up to the attack on Iraq please forgive me if I suspect that what President Bush (or a US House of Representatives committee) has to say regarding Iran isn’t a pack of lies too.
David,
You may reason with me, but I’ll not attack you. If some unreasonable person were attacking your family would you still not resort to deadly force?
Planes crashed
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 26, 2007 at 5:50 AM
Whattheheck-
I ask you to please please please, be realistic and actually look at the root sources of terrorism. The main reaeson for terrorism, is not because they are fundamental muslims, this is such an easy thing to say to label them, but it lacks depth, and understanding of their situation. I can’t believe anyone in 2007 still doesn’t get this, terrorism is caused by US actions in the Middle East; that means, US foreign policy, wars,military bombings, support for repressive regimes in the Middle East such as Saudi Arabia. Why don’t you get this? Read on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, if nothing else, and you’ll see the number 1 cause for terrorism. People don’t just join a terrorist group to go and blow other peole up or themselves up for no reason, and 9/11 was blowback from the US empire. I wonder why people such as yourself advocate war on Iran because it’s a “threat” but Saudi Arabia which is where the majority of the 9/11 hijackers came from, which is a State sponsor of terrorism, which is where the majority of the foreign fighters in Iraq are from, and are getting their support from (note: I don’t advocate war with Saudi Arabia either). By going to war with Iran though, the US will be falling right into the hands of Bin Laden, who wants to turn the world against it.
Iran’s President is no threat! Cmon. He has no power on foreign policy matters, and if the US once again attacks Iran, we’re going to be dealing with a shitload more terrorism, just as Iraq increased terrorism by over 600%, you think that attacking Iran isn’t going to gt more people angry? As David said: ““The Leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has issued the Fatwa that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that the Islamic Republic of Iran shall never acquire these weapons. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who took office just recently, in his inaugural address reiterated that his government is against weapons of mass destruction and will only pursue nuclear activities in the peaceful domain. The leadership of Iran has pledged at the highest level that Iran will remain a non-nuclear-weapon state party to the NPT and has placed the entire scope of its nuclear activities under IAEA safeguards and additional protocol, in addition to undertaking voluntary transparency measures with the agency that have even gone beyond the requirements of the agency’s safeguard system.””
No, Iran’s president isnt’ reasonable, but if a country should be bombed just because the president is unreasonable then oh boy, America is screwed. The supreme leader with all the power, has issued a Fatwa (religious prohibition) against nukes, and said they aren’t going to create them, the IAEA says that Iran doesn’t have high enough uranium levels to create nuks, and they are cooperating. Dont’ tell me you are willing to agree to another stupid attempt to bomb an innocent population just bcause one of your stupid “leaders” who lied to you with Iraq, is lying to you again. Stop basing your foreign policy judgments off of whether a president with no power on foreign policy matters, a president who can’t even move the troops, is no threat. I would advice you read Maria’s latest comment once again, perhaps you missed it, and read it carefully. You cannot advocate killing innocent people based on an unreasonable Iranian president, just like it isn’t justifiable for Russia to come to America and kill innocent people because our president is unreasonable (even more so than Iran’s). Iran has a right to go forward with nuclear energy, just so long as it is used for peaceful purposes, and no one has been able to prove that they are on the way to creating a nuke. Don’t go along with the Bush doctrine, please, for the sake of the people of this world. And please, do some reading on the Iranian government, even on wikipedia, so you have at least some understanding of who has the power.
The US is occupying Iraq, and Afghanistan, it’s participating and supporting the war in Somalia, it is carrying out terrorist actions in Iran, it’s trying to destabilize the entire middle east for its corporate profits, it is trying to destabilize South America, and has plans to go to war with Venezuela and Bolivia, and is attempting to destabilize them because they are opposed to the US empire. The US is more than likely restarting the dirty wars in Latin America. The US is supporting the Israeli occupation of Palestine, a brutal occupation. The US is supporting terrorist groups, still to this day. Iran is believed by neocons with no evidence to be building a bomb, and supports a couple of terrorist groups which aren’t our terrorist groups of choice, and has a president which says stupid things such as they are going to wipe israel off the map, and a supreme leader with the power who contradicts everything the president with no power says. The US has a president and government who wants to bomb the entire world, and threatens anyone who doesn’t go along with our plans for world domination. Who is the biggest threat?
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 26, 2007 at 9:38 AM
To whomever thinks they know if and when Iran began to build a nuclear weapon
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 26, 2007 at 12:21 PM
Anarcho,
You are skipping several centuries of bloody history in your belief that our (U.S.) being
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 26, 2007 at 12:33 PM
Hi, y’all!
davidincanuckistan,
I don’t know if they are or not. If they do, it will be for the reason I mentioned. It wouldn’t surprise me if they did after this turd of a presidency and its Bizzarro World foreign policy.
Hopefully they aren’t. We need another Middle-East war like a turtle needs a drag chute.
Ta-Ta!
Posted by Aunty Rightwing on Sep 26, 2007 at 1:43 PM
Wth-
“You are skipping several centuries of bloody history in your belief that our (U.S.) being “in the Middle East” is the cause of radical Muslim terrorism. “
No, you are making the mistake of once again listneing to the propagand on this subject. This terrorism that we are seeing today is not the same terrorism that Christians, a nd Muslims, committed in the Crusades. And if you want to use that comparison, then Christians are all like Pat Robertson, out to kill muslims. The Iraq war increased the amount of Jihadi recruits Al Qaeda and other organizations got, why do you think that is? If you believe that US actions aren’t causing this terrorism, then you need to rexamine history, and see the US role in the Middle East. People don’t just go volunteer to blow themselves up, they need a desperate situation in order to join the terrorist groups, and that desperate situation is one that the US creates. If you watched your children be brutally murdered in a US airstrike, or people you love die because the US gave Saddam the chemical weapons and helicopters to committ genocide with, after they called for Iraqi’s to rise up, or watch land settlements pop up, along with apartheid walls, and watch Israel’s ethnic cleansing, and genocide, all of which is supported by the US with military actions that wouldn’t be possible without us, or watch as the US overthrows your government, calling it democracy, only to install a repressive military dictatorship, and you’re telling me you’re not going to join a terrorist group because you’re pissed off with those things, that’s not going to push you over the edge, but because there is anti-US propaganda floating around. Iraqi’s aren’t joining the insurgency (or becoming terrorists as the government would like to say) becasue of propaganda, they are joining it because they want the US out of their country.
“I’m sure many people over there resent us, some with good reason perhaps, but others because of the vast amount of anti-American media coverage — including a good deal of it originating here.”
Well, don’t worry, I’m sure their anti-American media coverage is no worse than the anti-Islam media coverage which you pay attnetion to.You can take comfort in the fact that it’s no worse than what Pat Robertson is saying about the Muslim world.
“It appears as if you are very willing to accept anti-American commentary as evidenced by your belief that we are “starting the war in Somalia” and other statements. “
“Anti-American”. I just want to reflect upon this. If you put everything in the terms of “pro-america” or “anti-America” then you can get easily caught up in a very stupid game which is dangerous. No one is neccessarily anti-American, they are against the governments actions abroad, and for me personally, my attitudes which are considered by many “anti-American” are not a result of being anti-america, but of being anti-government, and pro-human beings. If you seperate yourself away from everyone else by lableing yourself as an American, and then everyone else is an enemy who dares to question America, then you get caught up in a hateful ideology much like the ones you condemn which you believe exist in Muslims. It is much like Israel, when anyone crticizes them, it is seen as anti-semitic, something which ignores the actual reasons behind crticizing them.
“Frankly, I could easily opt for isolationism, but they don’t ask my advice (except when a contribution card is included, of course).”
No, don’t give me this shit. Don’t sit here and tell me they don’t ask your opinion, that they don’t care. No, they don’t ask your opinion, but you have to make your opinion be heard. Sitting on your ass in front of a computer screen and acting hopeless doesn’t solve the problems of the world, nor does it help to stop t he horrible actions the government is taking. You are complicit so long as you fail to act. Don’t cry to me that they don’t care, you are accepting their actions as legitimate. If your government won’t listen to you, you have to stand up and act, and make them listen to you, or get rid of that government (whether that means creating a new government, or no government at all) if they won’t. Take action, protest, demand that they change their ways, you can’t just say, they don’t ask your advice, for no government does, that is why you have to demand it. Look at the Burmese, their government is far more repressive, and they are risking their lives to stop the governments policies. Do it yourself.
And so yo uknow. Iran is the most US-friendly nation in the Arab world. They held vigils on 9/11, and were saddened by the attacks as well. The government passed a resolution condemning the attacks. And you still have failed to show any of us, any evidence which shows Iran is creating nukes, nor any quotes in which Iran is directly threatening to attack the United States which would make them a “threat”. Also so you know, there are Christians within Iran, it’s not completely Islamic, just the majority are muslims, there are differing religions though.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 26, 2007 at 2:21 PM
Whattheheck,
That’s good to know because it’s always better if two people at odds reason together rather than one reaching for a weapon to settle the argument regardless of the merit of their position. As for your hypothetical situation I can’t provide an absolute answer but I would do everything I could to avoid violence simply because I feel it is more harmful to myself to inflict harm on others regardless of their actions. Hard to grasp but it’s the way I feel.
Planes crash - no detonation. Yes, but radioactive materials scattered over land is not something to brush off and nukes sitting at the bottom of the ocean isn’t so good either. I expect you wouldn’t like it if an unfortunate mistake happened in your backyard. And by the way, I am not worried but I am concerned.
I do not ignore the possible threat from Iran but am not willing to sanction bombing them back to the stone age when they have not initiated hostilities. I do however see the actions of the USA as a realized threat as they have initiated hostilities with Iraq being the most recent example. The saber rattling at Iran worries me and should worry you too.
———————
Aunty,
Agreed! So please be careful with your statements and provide the appropriate disclaimers so as not to further perpetuate the notion that it is a proven fact.
I don’t know if they are or not either but am willing to extend them the benefit of the doubt until their actions prove otherwise. And even if they are and announce a withdrawal from the NPT then that is their right and I can live with it. I would expect that if they are seeking a nuclear weapon it is for a deterent purpose and not to immediately bomb Israel (which does have a couple hundred nuclear weapons and is not an NPT signatory) or America (which has thousands of nuclear weapons and is currently using nuclear weapons called depleted {strictly semantic newspeak} uranium) as suggested by fear mongers.
Anarcho,
You are making the same shorthand comparisons as those who equate opposition to illegal immigrants and immigrants in general.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 26, 2007 at 4:43 PM
Anarcho,
Sitting here
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 27, 2007 at 7:16 AM
David,
If you were Iran’s president I’m sure there would be no sabers being rattled. Unfortunately that is unlikely to happen.
Many people choose to ignore Ahmadinejad’s bellicose behavior, but if I were charged with the responsibility for 330 million people I
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 27, 2007 at 7:38 AM
whattheheck, do you really believe that BTW’s assumption that one of his captors was the suddenly famous Ahmadinejad is a powerful reason to attack the inhabitants of a country so far from your own? It’s incredible how you people try and justify what has no justification. First Afghanistan, then Irak and now Iran , isn’t it remarkable the way enemies are
Posted by Maria on Sep 27, 2007 at 12:21 PM
Maria,
Did I say any such thing? I merely was pointing out that he is no angel. It is incredible how you people jump to conclusions just so you can criticize anyone in the U.S.
He is not assuming this Iranian was one of his captors he is certain. You tend to remember a person who holds you captive for months and takes his turn beating you.
It looks like you are willing to make a hero of anyone who is against the U.S. But, Chavez? Good grief
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 27, 2007 at 2:12 PM
Sorry, I don’t know the meaning of “doozy”, my English, not being my native tongue, is not so good and I couldn’t find it in the dictionary but never mind, I guess it’s not a compliment, so you needn’t explain its meaning. I will not trouble you anymore with my thoughts I am not trying to make a hero of anyone, I am simply stating that it’s not mentally healthy to be preaching about the inevitability of wars against nations because you dislike their presidents or their politics.
Common people around the world have basically the same needs and feelings without exceptions, believe it or not and no one has the right to attack them for wrong doings which are not theirs and as you should know by now wars tend to destroy common people, not generals, or presidents, or big wigs.
Posted by Maria on Sep 27, 2007 at 10:12 PM
Maria,
Sorry, I forgot that English is not your first language. Doozy (I
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 28, 2007 at 11:44 AM
whattheheck, “doozy” is in this case correctly applied, as I was born in precisely 1930 and,as every other being on earth I feel I am “unique”.
Sorry to exasperate you but I have always been a pacifist, a soother, as I feel us humans, have, among many other capabilities, the insight required for the foresight to plan for the needs of others as well as the self, to use our knowledge to alleviate suffering everywhere. We are the only species that is capable of showing concern for suffering of other living things, contrary to the reptile-eat-reptile and a dog-eat-dog world. The problem is we are distracted, led about by individuals who only seek power, or money or fame and thus lose life’s main purpose which is that of developing discernment. I have no religion or political view because I don’t need anything that separates me from the rest of my fellow beings. It’s not that I find faulk
t with the inhabitants of America, but if you read the list of wars you mentioned youwill see that they were started by your country’s succesive governments and that must surely mean something.
Love.
Doozy
Posted by Maria on Sep 28, 2007 at 4:12 PM
Whattheheck-
“You are making the same shorthand comparisons as those who equate opposition to illegal immigrants and immigrants in general.”
It’s a discriminatory nature no matter what, which ignores the peoples situations, something which I will condemn.
“All Christians”as if I were talking of ALL Muslims.
I am not.”
You speak of Muslims as if you are speaking for them all, maybe you should be more explicit, and not speak so generally if you don’t want to be understood in that way. I’m tyring to show you that just because there are radical muslim clerics out there that are speaking of holy wars and Jihads, doesn’t mean that they are getting through to Muslims, just as it doesn’t mean that since Pat Robertson is out there spewing hatred, he’s not getting through to all Christians. Obviously both are getting through to some, but notall, the reason for terrorism is these peoples situations in life, and the situation of life for others in Arab lands, which falls into an overall religious sense, but they are not acting because they are brainwashed or for religion alone.
“Sitting here “on my ass” is simply the easiest way to make my opinion heard. (Not that it is likely to change anything.)...I have often expressed my appreciation or displeasure to my representatives, I have voted in every election…”
Lobbying isn’t an effective means. I criticize you only from my own experience, I’ve gone about these ways trying to be a simple citizen who went through the ways of the system, believing in it, trying to change it. It doesn’t work. And voting is the biggest joke there is, there is no more useless of a way to “act”.
“OK, so tell me what are you doing which has more effect than just regurgitating your complaints? “
First of all, I am seeking to bring down the government, as all anarchists are doing. I seek to eliminate it, and to create a society where the needs of the people won’t rely on authority figures who don’t care. I work in solidarity with others, doing things to help in organizations such as the AnarchistBlackCross, AmnestyInternational, and others. I don’t simply sit on my ass, and type away at the computer. I have commented on this because it is an important issue which requires that the people realize the dangers if we go to war, in order to stop it, therefor, I comment to attempt to show you and the others who support this idea, the wrongs of taking such actions.
“...aren’t you the guy who claims the world (the system) isn’t providing you with happiness? Too few choices. All is stacked against you. The government should do something for you…”
The system shouldn’t exist, but if it does then it shouldn’t be making living conditions worse for the people.The system has failed everyone on freedoms, equality, as well as living conditions, read my comments to wolf to see more on this. My expectations are for the system to go away, so that the people can come together to make a better society without anyones interference.I don’t speak just for myself, I am concerned with others,not everything which I say is a problem which I am dealing with obviously.
“Perhaps I was wrong and all you do is “sit on your ass” whining about all the troubles you see.”
This isn’t about economic conditions, this is about war. This is about the fact that you are supporting something which creates death and destruction. Throughout all of your words, the only thing you have given us as reason to bomb an innocent population is the fact that you don’t like their president, who as so many of us have stated over and over again, has no power. Nor has Iran threatened the United States, and if they have, please, by all means, give us a quote. But still, to believe that they are going to pose a threat to the worlds greatest military superpower is ridiculous, and I hope you won’t fall into that trap.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 28, 2007 at 9:16 PM
wth-
War is not inevitable, and it has not always been, it is not a part of human nature. Archaelogical evidence and Anthropological evidence shows this actually. The human species lived tens of thousands of years without war, as well as without hierarchical societies, war first started emerging around 8,000 years ago with the start of agriculturist societies as well as private property. The people worked together at one time, and they were at peace with one another. Therefor, your idea that it is a part of man, is false. The wars your country is waging are based off of imperialism, not off of noble causes, and only further put more power into the hands of madmen.
I haven’t read all the comments, but apparently you are using someone who said that they were tortured by Iran’s president as evidence that we must go to war. What about the US? This country continues to torture people in Iraq, and Afghanistan, as well as on American soil. America has Guantanomo Bay. America has the program of extraordinary rendition. We cannot just go to war on the drop of a pin, this isn’t a game, there are lives at stake that just because they are Iranian, doesn’t mean they are any less valuable then American lives. There is a very strong pro-democracy movement within Iran, and attacking Iran will end that movement. Throughout all of thousands of years of wars, nothing has been gained by them that is substantial, not even WWII achieved what so many believe it did. World War I was supposed to be the war to end all wars, and it seems like we just continue to wage wars, which are supposed to be for the purpose (at least according to the politicians) of creating peace. You want to handle terrorism with war, and counterterrorism, yet, terrorism has been around for thousands of years, and those methods have been employed, and have all failed. Hell, America still has the KKK, and you think the government can stop Al Qaeda?
In this, I hope instead of responding to this comment that I have written, you will instead take the time to respond to some of the points which Maria has made which you haven’t responded to. I too would like a response to the following as Maria siad:
“It’s incredible how you people try and justify what has no justification. First Afghanistan, then Irak and now Iran , isn’t it remarkable the way enemies are ´picked? How about Saudi Arabia, where the 9/11 attaclkers came from? The people who used to kidnap, torture and disappear so many young and idealistic people in Argentina and Chile had been trained at the School of the Americas and patronized byKissinger, as it has been proved. Would that be enough merit to have your country bombed ? ”
We must look towards the root causes of the problems which we are dealing with in the world, not war. Diplomacy is something your politicians don’t employ anymore, which is perhaps the reason why you are so quick to offer war, because you have forgotten it. Check out the Iranian offer from 2003 in which they were going to hand the US government a silver platter, putting their nuclear program on the table, stopping funding of terrorist groups, helping the US in Iraq, and many other things. Your government denied it, ignoring Iran’s diplomatic efforts. Therefore it is Your governments own fault, and it has no right to go to war with Iran.
Since you like suggesting books and authors, I suggest you read Naomi Kleins Shock Doctrine: The rise of disaster capitalism, and read Hegemony or Survival by Noam Chomsky.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 28, 2007 at 9:21 PM
Maria -
... if you read the list of wars you mentioned youwill see that they were started by your country’s succesive governments and that must surely mean something.
Well, yes, it means that you are grossly ignorant of history and/or your leftist ideology has left you incapable of coherent thought.
WW2 was started by Germany’s attacks on Czechoslovakia and Poland and raged in Europe for two years while the United States was still locked in isolationism. The USA became directly involved when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, at which time Hitler declared war on the United States, and not the other way around.
South Korea was directly attacked by North Korea in June 1950 without warning. There were no American units in South Korea at the time.
South Vietnam was attacked by North Vietnam.
The Gulf War in 1991 was a United Nations effort resulting from Saddam’s attack on a United Nations member.
War with radical Muslims had raged for years with no response by the USA. Iran committed an act of war by attacking the US Embassy in Teheran. Hisb’allah killed American and French peace-keeping forces in Lebanon. There were thousands of individual attacks for a period of years, mostly against Muslims in North Africa and the Middle East, before the USA became seriously involved on 09/11.
Your tired old ideology has been thoroughly analyzed and disposed of decades ago. You are still following Orwell’s dictums:
“War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.”
The United States is starting wars when it defends itself, its Allies, or innocent bystanders, such as South Korea in 1950 or Kuwait in 1991, according to you and Orwell.
Anarcho pretends that his situation is “wage slavery”, and that is no different than institutional slavery.
Both of you are exhibiting ignorance and pretending it is strength. No wonder you leftists always manage to screw up free elections in free countries.
Don’t stop trying though, you do have some slight entertainment value that I quite enjoy.
Posted by scorp on Sep 28, 2007 at 9:33 PM
Maria,
“…. I have no religion or political view because I don’t need anything that separates me from the rest of my fellow beings.”
My religious views have evolved from a Christian (relatively conservative, to quite liberal, to agnostic) over the past 30 years or so. It was an uncomfortable struggle and not a quick decision. I suppose the same could apply to my political views.
While you see each of those topics as divisive, I’d suggest they could also unite, which in my case they do.
“…if you read the list of wars you mentioned you will see that they were started by your country’s successive governments and that must surely mean something.”
This is an over simplification, in my opinion. History, particularly military history is of strong interest to me. I won’t go into complex and a lengthy discussion, but only say, political differences between nations certainly contributed to the ultimate conflicts, which may have been resolved by other methods — only if all people were pacifists, like you.
As you stated, all beings are unique — but many are uniquely selfish, greedy, sadistic and a whole list of other disgusting and dangerous characteristics may apply. It only takes a few on each side to act on these human failings to pull thousands of others into the conflict.
Anarcho,
“You speak of Muslims as if you are speaking for them all, maybe you should be more explicit, and not speak so generally if you don’t want to be understood in that way.”
I have called them “wacko religious zealots” and “radical Muslims” — if I omitted an adjective it was not intentional. There is a Muslim family living two doors away from me who are very nice people.
As 9/11 the 1993 attack on WTC and attacks in other countries have shown it only takes a few to do a lot of damage. What I hear of Ahmadinejad and hear him say is encouraging such action at the very least.
Stop and think about what you are doing —
You say you want to bring down the government (an organization) and do this while working with “Anarchist Black Cross and Amnesty International and others” (more organizations).
All organizations in the history of the world have consisted of people with the same range of human characteristics, which make the organizations vulnerable to the same kinds of corruption.
You expect the system to “go away” so that people (the weak link) can “make a better society without anyone’s interference.”
In other words we will all play nice.
AND — you plan to do this without applying force (war). You think Ahmadinejad has NO POWER. What makes you think you do?
Do you realize you have a messiah complex? You are proposing heaven on earth!
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 29, 2007 at 7:06 AM
re: the article’s title
Just for a bit of perspective here are some numbers based on the recent Ken Burns’ TV special THE WAR. (WW2)
Before the war the U.S. Army consisted of 175,000 men.
Total number of Americans participating before it was over was 16 million.
Total cost in dollars was $304 billion which they said would be $3 trillion in today’s dollars.
Something to bear in mind as the media and politicians ask, “Are we there yet?”
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 29, 2007 at 9:59 AM
Scorp-
Don’t blindly attack others when you aren’t aware of the factual situations which have started those wars which you feel that the US was defending itself by getting involved in. The wars had much more to them then your simple history books teach you, and I would encourage you to do your own research to find the answers. All the wars which you mention are a result of US intervention and meddling in other nations, a result of US imperialism. Your right-wing ideology of defending the government fails to recognize the truth. The United States was involved in World War II before we were attacked, and openly did acts of war which made the Japanese attack a response to US aggression. The US could have taken steps before the war started to prevent it, but they didn’t. They could have stopped the fascist uprising by stopping Franco in Spain but anaThe US was supporting Britain militarily, therefore, not being a neutral party in starting up the war. The country which you are so proud of also was supportive of Hitler and the Nazi’s when they first came to power. The Vietnam war is a much more complex war then your simple right wing ideology would like to make it out to be. The war came about as a result of the US being opposed to the people rising up in the South (with support from the North) in order to overthrow the government which the US supported. The majority of the Vietnamese were behind Ho Chi Minh and the communists. The fighting in the South came forth as a result of the repressive Diemh government which the US supported. There was supposed to be a country wide election in Vietnam which would have established a government that the people voted for, the US however pressured the government in South Vietnam not to, and they did not, despite the fact that Ho Chi Minh insisted. Your government went into Vietnam to interfer with a social revolution which the people were behind. The US initiated the hostilities, there was no Gulf of Tonkin attack as propagated. The Korean war was started by the US and South Korea, not North Korea, it was the US and South Korea that initiated bombing in which the North Koreans defended themselves against.
The Gulf War? Give me a break. Your government supported Saddam and his actions against Iran, and then when his greed started inteferring with the US governments greed, then we decided to get involved. The US government supported Saddam, and put him in power. They gave him the chemical warfare, and the weapons of mass destruction, don’t give me this shit.
“War with radical Muslims had raged for years with no response by the USA. Iran committed an act of war by attacking the US Embassy in Teheran. Hisb’allah killed American and French peace-keeping forces in Lebanon. There were thousands of individual attacks for a period of years, mostly against Muslims in North Africa and the Middle East, before the USA became seriously involved on 09/11. “
All of those attacks were responses to US foreign policy and imperialism. Do your research and you will find this out.
“Your tired old ideology has been thoroughly analyzed and disposed of decades ago. You are still following Orwell’s dictums:
“War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.””
We are living in an Orwellian world, don’t insult Maria just because you can’t accept this, I live within this land yo ucall America as well, but my perceptions of the world don’t come from authority figures who tell me how to perceive the world, they come from the facts of what is happening. You probably believe the US is doing a noble deed in Iraq. Give me a break. Do yourself a favor and free yourself.
“Anarcho pretends that his situation is “wage slavery”, and that is no different than institutional slavery.
Both of you are exhibiting ignorance and pretending it is strength.”
Apparently you don’t understand wage-slavery so I’ll leave that comment be. And the burden of proof is on you, you are the one who has to prove that we need authority and that our ideals are flawed. You so far don’t even exhibit an understanding of our beliefs.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 29, 2007 at 2:31 PM
Whattheheck-
“All beings are unique � but many are uniquely selfish, greedy, sadistic and a whole list of other disgusting and dangerous characteristics may apply.”
The reason for those characteristics are not a part of human nature though, they exist because those behaviors have been nurtured and developeed. However, as you side with authority, and the minority which oppressively rules over mankind, you ultimately side with those who choose to go about such behaviors, as it is the government that you follow which can be characterized with such behaviors.
“As 9/11 the 1993 attack on WTC and attacks in other countries have shown it only takes a few to do a lot of damage. What I hear of Ahmadinejad and hear him say is encouraging such action at the very least.”
You made a comment regarding the fact that I believe that the people can have power but Iran’s president doesn’t. I would hope by now that you would listen to me when I say he has no power within his government because of the way it is designed. The Iranian government is different than the American governments set up. Instead of stating the same things over and over again, please read: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/29/4193/
“Stop and think about what you are doing”
I have never thought more clearly in my life, thanks for your concern. I reccomend that you stop and think about who you believe, and who you follow. The ideas behind anarchism consist of careful thought being put forth into developing a society where the people can run it collectively, where all can have freedom, and equality, in which we can also limit crime, and maintain social order. It doesn’t take thought to continue to follow the current system, and believing everything that authority figures tell you, it does take thought however to realize the flaws within this system and to realize how to fix them. Anarchism is an intellectual theory, and relies on a lot of thought in order to find how a society can exist without an authority figure, and how it can keep there from being chaos and disorder as a system such as capitalism creates. Anarchism is based off of archaelogical and anthropological evidence and research, capitalism and hierarchical systems are based off of greed and addictions to power.
“All organizations in the history of the world have consisted of people with the same range of human characteristics, which make the organizations vulnerable to the same kinds of corruption. “
Organizations mean people coming together in an organized form for some purpose. Your ideas are sad, because they reflect upon this idea that the majority of mankind must be ruled over, and that there are only a few people who are an exception to the rule, such as yourself, as you believe that you and those others are more pure than everyone else. You probably hold contempt for those in prison not recognizing the fact that many in prison are political prisoners, or innocent. Nor have you done the proper research to establish the roots of crime and why it is happening. Your singling out of organizations as being “corrupt”, is largely based on the nature of the organization as well, and you have failed to show me how either organization is corrupt to this day. Regardless of your accusations, both of those organizations which I listed have been effective in their actions in many different instances, where the action of writing a senator or voting is just creating some idea in your head that you’ve done something, but those politicians which you are trying to get to act for you, in truth only care about their corporate buddies which are giving them the campaign donations. Actions which I believe in, (all of which would be easier to do if people like yourself wouldn’t rely so heavily on writing your senators as being effective) and actions which I take, are effective, and I am careful in realizing what is ineffective and what is not (one reason why I am critical of the nature of the actions which the current peace movement is taking, in which there are far more effective ways).
Your system allows for a group of people to rule over everyone else, attaining ultimate freedom, while there is high levels of inequality, and they are oppressive towards the majority of the population. They do not have to answer to anyone because the people have been brainwashed to believe that everything the government does is ultimately for freedom and democracy, and therefor it is just, and we cannot criticize it.Your government simplifies issues to a good vs evil stance at which point the people go back to a simplified state of mind that is more inclined to follow the authority figures in this society because we are propagated that they are on the side of good, and if we do not support them, then we are on the side of evil. Issues aren’t as black and white as the government would make them out to be though. You speak and say that organizations are corrupt, but you present no evidence that the organizations that I mentioned are corrupt, and if you actually look at it, the goals which they are trying to achieve are being attained which shows that their actions are being effective. I criticized your actions because they are not effective, and because you obviously have no desire to go out there and make a real difference. The society I envision doesn’t give one man ultimate freedom while suppressing another, and ultimately works better, as has been proven by tens of thousands of years without hierarchical societies or governments. It’s shown that your society which relies on hierarchical authority exists with more flaws than anything else. You fear anarchism will create crime and disorder, yet, you seem to approve of a society where there are groups of people which hold power over everyone else, and then committ genocide against others. Remember, the government which you worship stole this land from the indigenous and committed genocide against them.
“You expect the system to “go away� so that people (the weak link) can “make a better society without anyone’s interference.� “
In other words we will all play nice. “
Yes, by examining the conditions which create it so people don’t play nicely in this system, we seek to eliminate those conditions and create conditions which will ultimately be more beneficial for people to play nice. DOn’t criticize what you dont’ understand.
“Do you realize you have a messiah complex? You are proposing heaven on earth!”
I am proposing the same ideas that the forefathers of the American revolution talked about. Freedom, peace, equality, etc. I however, have an understanding that authority is not needed, and governments are all repressive. No one can know for sure how it would be, perhaps it would be heaven on earth, lets hope so, but to deny that it would work just because it seems like that, shows an unwillingness to give it a chance. Your train of thought has been tried, and it has been failed, anarchism has been tried and still succeeds to this day with societies in the world which do not rely on hierarchical authority. Jefferson called for a revolution every 10 years, this shows a mistrust of the government. Your government is supposed to be a system in which the power comes from the bottom to the top, not from top-down, it obviously is not this way, and if it truly was to become this way, then there would be no point in it, anarchism just eliminates the middle man. I encourage you to read Emma Goldman, Peter Kropotkin, Rudolf Rocker, in order to gain a better understanding of anarchism. Infoshop.org is also a valuable resource. I wish you luck in finding the truth. As I told scorp, the burden of proof is on you to prove that we need authority, and that we need war. Don’t fall into the lies of politicians and authority figures, seek your own answers. You don’t believe in anarchism because you don’t believe in mankind, as if somehow you are pure enough that you wouldn’t be subjected to these flaws, it’s just everyone else on earth that is screwed up and yo ucan’t trust. It’s a shame you hold such a negative attitude towards your fellow man.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 29, 2007 at 2:47 PM
Whattheheck-
Another valuable site on anarchist thought is at http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/index.html
I also encourage you to read Howard Zinn’s “A Peoples history of the United States”, for a real understanding of American history, one that you seem unfamiliar with.
Posted by anarcho-liberation on Sep 29, 2007 at 2:50 PM
Never underestimate the stupidity and hubris of world leaders like Bush. What better way to distract from the debacle that is Iraq than to broaden the war to Iran??? Maybe the GOP will reign him in if only for the sake of the 2008 congressional elections.
Posted by aolaw on Sep 30, 2007 at 1:17 PM
aolaw -
Maybe the GOP will reign him in if only for the sake of the 2008 congressional elections.
And maybe you Collectivists will pull your collective heads out of your collective behinds, but I doubt it.
The last time the anti-war forces made a lot of noise, they drove the electorate away from McGovern to Nixon, in a near record Electoral College defeat and popular vote defeat in presidential election history.
The MSM has been going on and on and on and on about how badly the War on Terror has been, so that no one recognizes good news when they see it:
* Afgahanistan and Iraq have had by far the fewest civilian casualties of any American War in history. The overwhelming majority of civilian deaths have been caused by suicide bombers, IEDs, and RPGs, which are of course terrorist weapons. The precisely-targeted and disciplined firepower of the Coalition has resulted in remarkably few unwarranted and unwelcome civilian deaths.
* Afgahanistan and Iraq have had by far the fewest military casualties of any American War in history. The Department of Defense estimated 5000 military casualties in Iraq when Clinton and Kerry voted for the war. The actual number is substantially less than that. (Yes, I had two tours in Vietnam. Don’t worry about that.)
* The dollar cost of the War on Terrorism as a percentage of GDP is miniscule compared to Vietnam and Korea, much less WWII or the War Between the States.
* As security improves, the Iraqi population is turning against the terrorists and turning toward life and business. More cities and neighborhoods are secure. Markets are open. The Iraqi stock markets are up.
* The USA and the Coalition are winning the War on Terrorism, and have trapped Iran in an unsustainable positon with a hostile population, an ineffective military with ineffective Russian and NoKo weapons, and an inefficient economy. Ahmadinejad thinks that a miraculous Mahdi will give the Iranian thugs a worldwide religious and technological victory. The Mullahs are about to learn differently.
While the Collectivist press and politicians prattle on, President Bush has led the most delicate, precise, and inexpensive military and diplomatic war in history, and overwhelming evidence of victory is there to be observed. Want proof? When was the last time the NYT found anything to complain about?
The Dimocrats are heavily invested on an American loss in the the War on Terror. So sad. We are going to win.
Posted by scorp on Oct 1, 2007 at 10:15 AM
And what would that ‘win’ entail, Scorp? What would have to happen for your ‘victory’ to be declared?
Anarcho- 30 years and 3 billion people ago I would have agreed with much of your thinking. Imagine going back to an island where there were just 2 tribes. One tribe killed those they encountered not from their group, and the other didn’t. Which do you suppose were our ancestors? How do we explain to 2 and a half billion Indians and Chinese they can’t use cheap, dirty coal to build their economies as we did? That they can’t ever consume the way we do?
Of course the above would be a piece of cake compared to convincing Americans to give up their cars and big, air-conditioned houses. If it came to a vote between war and totally downgrading our conspicuous consumption, how do you think the majority would respond?
Good to see you out of your igloo, David, and back to whipping the Belligerents with your olive branch. Captain Anti-ad-hom LIVES!!
Posted by recursive prophet on Oct 1, 2007 at 12:07 PM
Scorp-
Good news about the war on terror? Surely you live in another world. This war on terror is on its way to becoming or has already become the second most expensive war in history. It has cost more than the Vietnam war and the Korean war, coming it at a cost of over 750 billion, not including the war in Somalia, nor including our support for nations such as Israel for their role in the so-called war on terrorism, surpassing the cost of both wars. I’m not aware of the cost of the Civil War, but I’m sure the so-called war on terrorism has surpassed it too.The cost is irrelevant though, for it is the effect that this war has had on innocent lives that don’t deserve it. This war has increased terrorism, it has created over a million deaths, it has brought terrorist recruitment levels to all time highs, played exactly into the hands of what Osama Bin Laden wanted, among other things. In Iraq, it has created a populatin with all time high poverty levels, all time low education levels (which were really high under Saddams rule), created terrorism, abductions, food and water shortages, lack of medical services because of the violence the war has created. And many other problems, I reccomend reading http://www.motherjones.com/news/featurex/2007/03/iraq_effect_1.html , this might help you to understand the effect of the war in Iraq better, as well as the general situation which you misunderstnad so easily. Another good resource is electroniciraq.net .
” * Afgahanistan and Iraq have had by far the fewest civilian casualties of any American War in history. The overwhelming majority of civilian deaths have been caused by suicide bombers, IEDs, and RPGs, which are of course terrorist weapons. The precisely-targeted and disciplined firepower of the Coalition has resulted in remarkably few unwarranted and unwelcome civilian deaths.”
Terrorist actions which have been caused by the US invasion, terrorism which has been caused by the US occupation. Aside from that, of course, I’m sure you hate to have someone call you on the facts, but this war does not have the fewest casualties of all of our wars, this is a very sloppy ignorant statement. Even if it did have the lowest casualties, there are still over a million people dead, which is far too many, regardless of how many have died in other wars compared to this one. The military is not careful to not kill civilians (perhaps you missed the recent court martial hearing of soldiers who killed innocent civilians in Iraq and planted guns on them), there are innocent people being killed everyday by the military (read: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges ) and their deaths are either covered up by planting evidence on them, or are ignored. If the US is so careful in Iraq, then why are they using cluster bombs? While the cluster bombs haven’t killed everyone of their victims, they have torn off arms, legs, and left innocent people handicapped. Airstrikes are often carried against what we are told are “suspected terrorists”, note the word “suspected”, in other words, they don’t know who the fuck they were, but since they killed them, they must have been insurgents. The so-called war on terror is causing the deaths of millions of inncoent people, and shows a complete lack of understanding of terrorism. Only the United States is arrogant enough to think out of thousands of years of terrorism and counterterrorism, it suddenly thinks that it can succeed in using violence to end violence where others have failed. It is the root causes of terrorism that need to be realized and solved, and the root problem is the US imperialism and hegemony that is this a part of this war on terror.
“While the Collectivist press and politicians prattle on, President Bush has led the most delicate, precise, and inexpensive military and diplomatic war in history, and overwhelming evidence of victory is there to be observed. Want proof? When was the last time the NYT found anything to complain about? “
Collectivist? You really have no understanding of what that means do you? And the NYT editorial board just came out not that long ago condemning the war in Iraq and saying it is time to leave. Doesn’t matter anyways because the NYT is just the same propaganda machine as every other media outlet, putting out the same old lies to back up the government.
“The Dimocrats are heavily invested on an American loss in the the War on Terror. So sad. We are going to win.”
What are you talking about? THe democrats support this war on terrorism. They refuse to end the war in Afghanistan, and Iraq, and continue to support this war on terror. The democrats buy into the whole bullshit philosophy of supporting the troops, which means supporting the war. The Democrats dont’ do shit to end this war other than pathetic attempts, in order to make the public think that they are. They are too busy condemning ads by moveon.org to give a shit about what is happening.
I too would like to know what that win entails. Stopping terrorism? It’ll never happen. The US is losing the war anyways, because Jihadist recruitments are up, terrorist attacks are up, and they are falling right into the hands of Bin Laden. You act as if your government is serious about this war on terrorism anyways. It’s not. It wants to stop terrorism which is a threat to its empire, and capitalism. It is all gunho on supporting terrorism as seen by the CIA’s role in the bombing of Cubana flight 455, and the governments refusal to extradite Luis Pasada Carilles. Not to mention its refusal to prosecute corporations which support right-wing terrorist groups in Columbia. The Bush regime knew about the Chiquita banana corporations support of terrorist groups, and allowed it to continue.
“* As security improves, the Iraqi population is turning against the terrorists and turning toward life and business. More cities and neighborhoods are secure. Markets are open. The Iraqi stock markets are up. “
Markets being open, and an economy based off of economic shock therapy doesn’t show stability and security, it shows the real motive behind America getting into Iraq. A war waged so that we could create a system based off of Milton Friedmans ideas of disaster capitalism, ideas that are not based on benefiting the public, but benefiting corporations. We went to war for corporate globalization (as well as hegemony). It is the US which is seeking to give control of Iraq’s oil to corporations such as Exxon/Mobile and Shell, something the Iraqi people highly oppose, and the oil workers have gone on strike over many times. You may not be aware of Friedman, or he may be your hero like so many other neo-con idiots, but he’s the same great guy who was nice enough to help out the Chileans by continuing to be an adviser to the military dictatorship of Pinochet (note: this is sarcasm). I suggest you read Naomi Klein’s “The Shock Doctrine: The rise of disaster capitalism” for more analysis of Friedman’s failed ideas, as well as the system which we are establishing in Iraq.
As far as the people fighting back against terrorism. The people are fighting against Al Qaeda becuase they have grown sick of Al Qaeda’s attacks on civilian neighborhoods, do not get the impression from this that Iraqi’s do not support insurgent groups that attack coalition forces, recent polls have shown that the majority do, and if you know anything about the situation in Iraq at all, you know that the majority of the insurgents are indeed Iraqi’s who have grown pissed off with the occupation and taken up arms to end the US occupation (just as in Vietnam, when you and the other assholes proudly went to go serve yoru time in a battle which originated because of a regimes repressive nature, and the people in South Vietnam rising up to overthrow it with support from the Communists in the North, but you wouldn’t know anything about t hat, now would you? you just went to be an obedient tool). This has nothing to do with a success of occupation forces, and while propagated to be a result of the so-called troop surge, Iraqi’s started doing this on their own before the surge, and without the help of occupation forces. The US just came later in the game and gave them arms to help them, but if you’re stupid enough to think that that is a sign of their love for American occupation of their country, and willingness to accept what we want for their country instead of what they want, then you are a fool
And the anti-war forces were the people who ended the war in Vietnam, as well as other wars of aggression. Something which you probably have no appreciation for, despite the fact that it was their actions that probably saved your life. The peace movement now is pathetic because it isn’t going about the right ways to end the war, and is instead too busy trying to cater and support the troops, feeling sorry for them-when they should be supporting the Iraqi resistance if they are going to take sides in an armed conflict-and never speak the words of revolution.
Recursive Prophet, good to see you too. Not many leaves or olives left on the branch but I persevere.
RP -
And what would that “win” entail, Scorp?
Why, it might look something like this:
... support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime.
... support Iraq’s transition to democracy by providing immediate and substantial humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people, by providing democracy transition assistance to Iraqi parties and movements with democratic goals, and by convening Iraq’s foreign creditors to develop a multilateral response to Iraq’s foreign debt incurred by Saddam Hussein’s regime.
In fact, this is the law of the United States. The quotes are from the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, voted on by 100% of the United States Senate (by acclamation) and about 90% of the Congressmen, including Dennis Kucinich. And signed by President Clinton.
You are obviously a little shaky on your history, so you might also find it worthwhile to review why your Senators and Representatives voted for this:
The Congress makes the following findings:
(1) On September 22, 1980, Iraq invaded Iran, starting an 8 year war in which Iraq employed chemical weapons against Iranian troops and ballistic missiles against Iranian cities.
(2) In February 1988, Iraq forcibly relocated Kurdish civilians from their home villages in the Anfal campaign, killing an estimated 50,000 to 180,000 Kurds.
(3) On March 16, 1988, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iraqi Kurdish civilian opponents in the town of Halabja, killing an estimated 5,000 Kurds and causing numerous birth defects that affect the town today.
(4) On August 2, 1990, Iraq invaded and began a 7 month occupation of Kuwait, killing and committing numerous abuses against Kuwaiti civilians, and setting Kuwait’s oil wells ablaze upon retreat.
(5) Hostilities in Operation Desert Storm ended on February 28, 1991, and Iraq subsequently accepted the ceasefire conditions specified in United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 (April 3, 1991) requiring Iraq, among other things, to disclose fully and permit the dismantlement of its weapons of mass destruction programs and submit to long-term monitoring and verification of such dismantlement.
(6) In April 1993, Iraq orchestrated a failed plot to assassinate former President George Bush during his April 14-16, 1993, visit to Kuwait.
(7) In October 1994, Iraq moved 80,000 troops to areas near the border with Kuwait, posing an imminent threat of a renewed invasion of or attack against Kuwait.
(8) On August 31, 1996, Iraq suppressed many of its opponents by helping one Kurdish faction capture Irbil, the seat of the Kurdish regional government.
(9) Since March 1996, Iraq has systematically sought to deny weapons inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission on Iraq (UNSCOM) access to key facilities and documents, has on several occasions endangered the safe operation of UNSCOM helicopters transporting UNSCOM personnel in Iraq, and has persisted in a pattern of deception and concealment regarding the history of its weapons of mass destruction programs.
(10) On August 5, 1998, Iraq ceased all cooperation with UNSCOM, and subsequently threatened to end long-term monitoring activities by the International Atomic Energy Agency and UNSCOM.
(11) On August 14, 1998, President Clinton signed Public Law 105-235, which declared that `the Government of Iraq is in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations’ and urged the President `to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations.
(12) On May 1, 1998, President Clinton signed Public Law 105-174, which made $5,000,000 available for assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition for such activities as organization, training, communication and dissemination of information, developing and implementing agreements among opposition groups, compiling information to support the indictment of Iraqi officials for war crimes, and for related purposes.
Any more questions?
Posted by scorp on Oct 2, 2007 at 10:28 PM
scorp-
Those were some of the goals which were defined for Iraq, as far as the democracy thing, it was defined as a goal following the fact that we had not found Weapons of Mass Destruction, and the public was told before the invasion that this was not about “country building”, yes, they contradicted their own words at many times, but individuals within the regime such as Cheney, clearly siad that. However, you are choosing to pick “goals” for Iraq, which exist solely as propaganda, because democracy and an ultimately free market society (which they want) are incompatable with each other. However, the “goals” which you define for Iraq, are not “goals” which are for this “war on terror”, which is supposed to serve the purpose (in the speeches to Americans, of course), of stopping terrorism, and mainly, stopping Al Qaeda, a clearly defined “goal”, which obviously failed miserably, as Al Qaeda is stronger than ever, Jihadist recruitments are at all times highs, Jihadist terrorist attacks are at all time highs, and there is a general sympathy with Jihadism with Arabs in general more so, all of which directly contradict the whole purpose of this stupid “war on terrorism” which really is just a war based on State terrorism, and YOUR State’s terrorism at it. While the so-called war on terror still goes on, the US is clearly losing the war-unless of course you want to live in the lala land of fox news.
It’s interesting to me how you bring up that select history. You fail to mention that Iraq’s invasion of Iran, was supported by the US (no not officially of course), and when Iraq became on the defensive in mid-1982, it was then that the US decided to back Iraq, and build Saddam up militarily. It took however, the Reagan regime successfully removing Iraq from the US state sponsors of terrorism list, in order for Saddam to acquire the weapons which he used on the people, as well as the vehicles which were used to deliver the attacks-it was that list which had been serving as a trade barrier with Iraq, that your government removed him from, so that he could gain the weapons which he wanted. It was in fact coal who killed the prevention of Genocide Act of 1988 as well, which had bipartisan support after Hallubja All of those genocidal accounts that you speak of, before the invasion of Kuwait, were done with US support. It was the US which sold Saddam chemical warfare, and weapons of mass destructions, as well as the Apache helicopters which he used to committ the genocide. All the chemicals were given to him by the Reagan regime, when Saddam had already committed genocide before. The genocide committed after the Gulf War is largely the responsibility of the US government, as Bush Sr. called on the Iraqi people to rise up and overthrow their government. At which point there was a popular uprising, which obviously freaked the US out because it was indeed a popular uprising, and would have meant a democratic state. At that point, the Shiites and Kurds were willing to overthrow the government, and would have done so if they had the arms to do it with, however, it was the marines on the border who were told to stand down, when the Iraqi’s asked for the confiscated weapons of Saddams, so that they could fight (something which the US called upon them to do). Your government turned them down, because it wasn’t the uprising that it wanted, and as a result, Saddam killed those people. I’m curious as to why you leave out that part of the equation as well. Also, what about the effect of the US sanctions which killed millions of Iraqi’s? What about the weekly bombings the US had been carrying out between the ending of the first gulf war and the start up of the invasion of Iraq? You are one-sided in your view of history. Saddam committed those horrible actions, but he did so with the complicity of the US government.
And shakey on history? The senators and representatives voted for this war because they were told Iraq was a threat, and had nuclear weapons which it had planned on using against the United States. With regards to his previous actions, tehy were discussed only towards usage of beating the drums for war to make Saddam look evil, and the US government look good, when in reality, both are evil. It was the result of the Senators and Representatives being too stupid to actually examine the facts, and too careless to as well. There was dissent at the time, which should have been listened to, but they voted for this war because they fell into Bush’s propaganda, and because they themselves were in favor of it for gaining control of Iraq’s resources, and opening up a free market economy, among other things which would value US corporations. We were also told that Saddam had a role in 9/11, therefor that got people to comply to going to war, but that obviously was a lie. We did not go into Iraq for his past crimes, in fact, the Bush regime was terrified when Saddam was on trial for his crimes which is why they established a special tribunal for trying him, as well as the others who committed the crimes. The Us finances the tribunal, it trained the judges, it trained the judges, the lawers, the prosecutors. There was also a special provision in the statute of the tribunal that says that only Iraqi citizens or Iraqi residents can be accused. In other words, foreigners cannot be brought before the tribunal (US officials who are complicit).
I have a question, when are you going to stop looking at the war crimes of other countries leaders alone, and recognize it when your own government committs war crimes? You are quick to condemn other nations “leaders” but when it comes to your own, those who you follow so devoutely, you justify everything they do, even if it is a war crime. Your government is violating the geneva convention, and international law by torturing people. It is targeting civilians, another war crime. It has used depleted uranium bombs, it has used cluster bombs. When are you going to condemn these acts? Your government started an illegal war. When are you going to condemn that? Those are my questions, because i don’t feel that you have a right to condemn other “leaders” for crimes which your “leaders” have themselves committed. You show no impartiality. Both Saddams goverenment, and the US government are guilty of war crimes, and both have acted in despicable manners. If you want to condemn Saddam for committing these crimes, condemn your government for its complicity in them. Stop being such a fucking patriot and open your eyes, blind faith has never accomplished anything decent in this world.
You are a hoot, Scorp. So how long does our ‘support’ continue is the question. When can we say our ‘mission is truly accomplished’ and bring the troops home? What will the situation in Iraq have to look like for this to happen? This is the question you neocons never answer, along with where the money and fresh troops will come from to continue this insanity. I guess ultimately it’s up the the Chinese and Japanese, as they carry most of our debt. What if they stop carrying us?
Posted by recursive prophet on Oct 5, 2007 at 12:04 PM
RP -
Ummm, since all I did was quote United States Law, and point out that many Dimocrats embraced that law and the reasons we went to war, I’m a hoot? Clinton is not a hoot? All the United States senators in 1998 are not a hoot, but I am?
You are not a prophet, you can’t even tell what the past was, much less what the future will be.
My horseback estimate is that al-Qa’eda in Iraq will continue to lose local support, the Sunnis and Shi’ites will come to an armed truce, business and civil life will continue to revive in Iraq, and the United States will maintain a discreet presence in Iraq for the next forty years. Why not, the War against the Terrorists has little dollar cost and negligible impact on our economy, and we can remove troops from Europe to garrison Iraq.
You seem to be concerned about “debt” and the Chinese and Japanese. Whatever are you thinking of?
Posted by scorp on Oct 5, 2007 at 10:15 PM
How about the value of the dollar? As our economy runs on oil, you don’t think this is going to be a problem? Just keep throwing money into the dark pit of Iraq and there’ll be no consequences? Think we’re getting more popular over there Scorp? Who’s going to protect this small force we leave behind? The Iraqi military?
Those others you mention ARE ALSO a hoot, Scorp, but the way you go on you’d fit right in. Ever consider running for office? The Hooters Party?
Oh, and business and civil life will CONTINUE in Iraq? When did it START? I must have missed it.
Posted by recursive prophet on Oct 10, 2007 at 3:24 PM
Let’s leave Iraq now. It is a multibillion dollar boondoggle and a pointless bloodbath to boot.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Oct 29, 2007 at 11:45 AM
Hi Maria, thanks for your contribution.
You say you are asking yourself why our country is now beeing considered “the” rogue state of the world. What happened, why did we go so wrong?
You might want to consider that the American people is the only people on earth who eats genetically alterered foods. There is enough proof about how poisonous the stuff may be but only in America most consumers are kept totally ignorant about it.
There is a research that shows that rats fed genetically altered food became so very agressive that they attacked the other rats and then proceeded to kill one another for no reason whatsoever. Meanwhile, the control group showed no such behavior and remains peaceful.
Look for instance at http://www.seedsofdeception.com/ and then tell me if there might be a connection between our current diet and our current folly.
Of course, you’d have to do your own reading, as we can’t count on our bribed politicians and servile media to keep us informed about what their main sponsors are doing.
Posted by nicola on Oct 30, 2007 at 2:42 AM
But, but, but… we ARE going to bomb Iran. That’s a given. If you have any doubts whatsoever that they’re not going to pull it off again…. read this:
FIVE EASY PIECES TO IRAN:
CLICK HERE
http://tvnewslies.org/blog/?p=658
Posted by skipper7 on Nov 5, 2007 at 7:19 PM
Skipper7, you have just made my point in your short comment. You say “We ARE going to bomb Iran”. Are you going to do it personally? Do you agree with it? Since you say “we are” I have to assume that you line up behind whatever the people in power in your country decide to do, and that ‘s exactly part of the problem, “they are going to pull it off again” because pople keep a silent passivity and those who don’t are immediately called names: “neomarxists”, “lefties”, “commies”, etc. etc. as a way to discredit whatever they have to say. From the distance it’s quite difficult to know what portion of the american population is pro or against these wars, so no wonder you are beoming highly unpopular around he world.
Posted by Maria on Nov 6, 2007 at 7:36 PM
where to begin, take up ...IRAN + Nukes = demise of ISRAEL.
ISRAEL who unlike Iran has invaded other countries, disregarding international law, have USA nuclear weapons (hundreds of them)
India has them, Korea (both) have them, and lest we forget our stable playmates in (drum roll) Pakistan and that whole proliferation dealer Kahn (sp?) and they unlike Israel and the Arab world (Syria, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Lebanon, et al) enjoy a peaceful coexistaence w/India ...
How narrow these thought processes you enjoy ... [you must, been looking at your chatter for soem two months now]
this debate, if it is one, sould include for the record ....
ISRAEL can and does imprison/attack/starve/torture/...oh let’s just stay w/Palestine and those who want merely their own country, to live, not in oppresive fear, how about their energy supplies, seems like they could use a nuclear reactor ...
So you think IRAN has intentions of attacking everyone, hell Saddam did and look what happened to him .... somehow his intentions to move his country’s currency and align it with the EURO gets little, if any mention ........ Barradei and his factual staff again say CHENEY et al are up to their own tricks .... what the hell is another blank check drawn on a bankrupt account matter, these contractor/presidential supporters
[POSSE is a better fit than the present ‘Pioneers’, don’t ya think] still don’t have to file tax returns ....and they won’t doesn’t matter what the IRS says ......
So I do appreciate reading your ongoing discussion, just wondering when/where does reality enter ????? re: it’s OK when those countries/regimes we’re alligned with [who don’t have the OIL reserves ISRAEL, Britain, on & on] can attack, invade, and occupy, fence in/out, and profess IRAN and other ‘non alligned’ are secretly plotting and planning to eliminate what behaviors/oppresion/hypocrisy ?????exactly
WAR CRIMINALS
PLAY BY THEIR OWN SET OF RULES, THE TRUTH DOESN’T FACTOR IN, NO ROOM I GUESS ...... and as long as the fear is rampant the resistance remains choked back ....
Posted by sudsy49 on Nov 11, 2007 at 9:13 AM
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Reader Comments
No one wants war. But the idea of a nuclear armed medieval state is very very scary.
Sanctions are a good idea, particularly if they target all advanced technology. We should avoid letting Iran acquire any technology that was not available in 1950 or so, unless it is clear that such technology cannot be abused by the crazies who rule that country. Of course, no modern weapons should be allowed in as well. This is not only for our own good, but for the good of Iran as well. They simply are not ready for such disruptive technologies and clearly are inclined to wreck havoc with the same, if they obtain it.
How sad it must be to grow up in such primitive conditions, when wealth and knowledge are both available to them. I pity those who are unlucky enough to be born there. But perhaps they will come out of savagery and ignorance and eventually find they way into the modern world (rather than attempting to destroy same). One can only hope, for their sakes and ours.
What about the paramilitarism and attempt to regain empire by the radical Muslims? Did he forget about that already?
Due to the over-extention of our military in the Iraq escapade we are in bad shape to deal with another wacko regime whether Iran, Korea, or ?
Both the left and the right need to stop the medial civil war and establish a coherent military policy which includes the other free world leaders who have also been attacked.
With a solid front we could handle this with strategies economic planning backed by a global miltary threat rather than resorting to unilateral force.
For anyone to even believe that we have the right to attack or go to war with Iran if we could afford such actions, and our military wasn’t overexpanded is ridiculous. We have NO right to attack Iran, regardless of how ridiculous the regime may be, and regardless of what the US government would like us to believe regarding the Iranian governments intentions. Even the idea that we should attack Iran is ridiculous given the fact that even if Iran is attempting to create nuclear weapons (which there is no proof that they are, and obviously according to the weapons inspectors, they don’t have the uranium enriched at high enough levels to be doing so) they still do NOT have a nuclear weapon. Should we believe now that the US has a right to attack other nations based off of their governments intentions to do something alone? Are we going to enforce thought crimes for other nations? Why is it that American’s are still foolish enough to believe that this government has a right to police the world, when the government itself is in violation of international law, is guilty of war crimes, and continues hegemony? The only reason we will go to war with Iran is to expand the US empire, and it’s time that the liberals wake up and realize that this is the very purpose of all US actions abroad. The govenrment has no clear intention to make sure the world is safe, otherwise it wouldn’t be intending to start another arms race with Russia by putting a missile defence system in the Czech republic and Poland.
The US has more nuclear weapons than any one else in the world, it alone spends more on military than the rest of the world combined. It is supporting Israel as it continues to occupy Palestine, and enforce aggressive foreign policy throughout the Middle East, inevitably causing terrorism. The US recently announced it is going to military buildup everyone around Iran by arming them to the teeth, and what do we expect Iran to do exactly? If they were creating nuclear weapons, would they not be justified? It would be the only thing to deter a US attack on them. Then there is the idea that we need to attack Iran because they are supporting Shiite militias which are responsibl for attacks on US troops, yet, there still is no proof that Iran has directly given them weapons, and in fact Petraeus himself has said that they have no proof to support this, as well as many other US generals.
It is time for us to stand up and stop the US government, and to stop this kind of hostility which is only getting worse. We as human beings must not accept the actions of this government as being legitimate just because we live in America. Has no one learned anything from Iraq? For how long can we blind ourselves, before we realize the truth, and finally put a stop to the US empire building. Military action obviously is not the answer to our problems, bombing an innocent population is not goign to solve anything, we must look at dismantling militarism instead of encouraging it. (this comment was mainly regarding the two previous comments)
Quoting anarcho “Why is it that Americans are foolish enough to believe that this government has the right to police the world…..”
That’s the big question millions of us around the world are asking ourselves each night, the cause of most of our nightmares. The options are not too many: either because they are too self-centered and really believe they are the “super race” or they are too blind to see the consequences of USA’s foreign policy in the last decades, which has only brought about pain, suffering and death to many countries, always based on lies, half-truths and arrogance.
So, calling other governments “wacko” is lacking any sense of perspective and self-criticism. The very moment your president started on his imperial campaign against other countries based on absolute lies, I came up with a definition of “a blindman poking about with a long stick on ant-hives”. I wish I had been mistaken but everyday news confirm my suspicion.
Maria,
Perhaps you would rather Iran or Korea were the dominant military in the world
Wolf, America is becoming a fascist state. That is scarier than specious allegations of Iran having or seeking to aquire nuclear weapons. And what about the crazies that rule your country who are wreaking havoc in Iraq with nuclear wepaons in the form of depleted uranium weapons? And the same crazies are threatening Iran with nuclear attack. Incredible hubris and a fine example of the pot calling the kettle black.
How sad it is that your self perception of cultural superiority seems to prevent you from appreciating the wealth and knowledge of other countries and cultures. I pity you and those like you who are unfortunate enough to be born in America and conditioned to believe that America is a beacon of freedom for the rest of the world to emulate. Very sad.
For your own good and that of your country and the good of others around the world I urge you to speak out against all aggressive wars.
Whattheheck, what about America’s attempt to gain empire ? Are you really that blind that you can’t see that the enemy is us (you)? What about the radicals in your own government who seem to be hell bent on attacking Iran just as Iraq was attacked without legitimate cause?
Why is your solution dependant on a military threat ? Isn’t there a better way?
As for the article ...
<i>“Another War We Can
David,
Love your enemies? Turn the other cheek?
Would you do away with the RCMP?
Check out history
David -
The US is (obviously) not a perfect country. As are all countries, it is composed of imperfect men. I see little danger of it becoming fascist, that is simply rhetoric with little substance (however, Saudi Arabia, Korea, China, Russia, etc etc while not being “fascist” per se have human rights records consistent with same, so there is lots of room to point fingers).
Iran has made it clear they want nukes. Some here believe it is their *right* to acquire them as well. I suggest that we - the West - should not help them in this pursuit, which seems to me very likely to cause tragedy beyond any we have yet seen in modern times. We have already given them technology far beyond their ability to control, we should limit the damages now before it is too late.
All wars are aggressive. All wars are evil. All wars kill innocents of all stripes. The trick then is to choose the least of two (or more) evils, rather than simply picking good over evil. This has always been a difficult choice, but it is the nature of the world we live in.
BTW my definition of “cultural superiority” extends to Canada and the West in general. Places where people are (mostly) free, as opposed to the vast majority of other places (the list above, all of Africa, almost all of the middle east, etc). Those of us lucky enough to live in freedom should be very happy to be so fortunate!
Wolf - Iran has not made it clear as you state. The President of Iran has made it clear that he wants nuclear weapons, but if you had any understanding of the way Iran operates, you would see that all foreign policy matters are in the hands of Ayatollah Khamenei. Instead of listening to what the nutjob president says, you can read what he says instead, and everytime the president comes out and says something ridiculous like they want to nuke Israel or wipe Israel off the map, Khamenei has come out soon after and said, “no, we aren’t going to do this”. Aside from that Khamanei has ordered a fatwa (religious prohibition) against nuclear weapons. Aside from that, if you actually would have read this article through, you would read:
“All along, Iran has maintained that the purpose of the program is to generate electricity for civilian use. And the U.N.’s nuclear watchdog organization, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), reported on August 30 “significant” cooperation from Iran over its nuclear program and said that the uranium enrichment processes have decreased and are producing “well below the expected quantity for a facility of this design.” Additionally, according to the IAEA, Iran has promised to answer most of the agency’s questions by November. The IAEA further commended Iran for coming to agreement on a new work plan and timeline set forth by the IAEA.”
And war is never necessary. Perhaps if you would pull your head out of the sand, you would see that all of the wars the US goes into are just for the sake of empire building. If Iran was creating nuclear weapons, which they obviously are not, they would be doing so to protect themselves as the US continues to build up their neighbors which are their enemies (Israel mainly) to the teeth.
” Those of us lucky enough to live in freedom should be very happy to be so fortunate!”
Good god, I’m sorry, but where the hell have you been living? Freedom? HA! What a joke. We are oppressed, not free. If you can’t realize that then no wonder you think we should go to war.
Wolf, type “fascism america” into your favorite search engine and do some reading.
Here are a couple examples:
14 points of fascism
The Dawning of Fascism in America
It’s a reality and brushing it off as simply rhetoric with little substance is cowardly or ignorant.
You say Iran has made it clear they want nukes . Assuming you mean nuclear weapons ... do you have any evidence for this assertion?
Currently Iran insists they are pursuing peaceful nuclear technology and the IAEA backs this up. Any allegations from the United States about Iran attempting to develop nuclear are simply that ... allegations and probably lies. Lies very similar to the ones that were part of the propaganda runup to the invasion of Iraq.
The invasion of Iraq was an illegal war and the instigators are war criminals. Any attack on Iran is more of the same.
Please spare me your lesser evil justification for war. It is superficialy pleasing but lacks real merit.
whattheheck-
I realize this wasn’t directed towards me, but I’m responding anyways.
“Perhaps you would rather Iran or Korea were the dominant military in the world — well, you are entitled to your opinion. History shows us that someone always fills that role.”
The dominant military in the world? Cmon. The US is the most powerful military in the world, we spend more on militarism than all other nations combined, and you’re going to tlel me that one of those countries which isn’t even close to our military stance is going to fill that role? Give me a break. Neither nation poses a serious threat to the nation which spends that much on militarism, the nation which is the most heavily armed, and the nation with the most nuclear weapons.
“I notice you chose to ignore my suggestion, “…establish a coherent military policy which includes the other free world leaders who have also been attacked.””
No military policy is needed, and the “free world” doesn’t exist. It’s time you people raelized this. Every part of the “free world” is oppressed, we are not free in America, even if your democrats are elected, we will not have true freedom. True freedom cannot exist with governments, for all governments are oppressive. Freedom exists for our corporations to go overseas and exploit third world nations, not for us as citizens, surely Bush’s reign has by now proven that as we step more and more into an Orwellian world.
“Without the threat and strength to back up any warnings to rogue nations or “wacko” religious zealots, the world would indeed be run by anarchists…if so, the next time there is a natural disaster — call an anarchist for help.”
You act as if anarchists seek to destabilize the world. This shows that you lack an understanding of what anarchy represents, maybe instead of relying on the popular idea that we are bomb throwing chaos oriented individuals, you should look into the actual ideals behind anarchism. Read individuals such as Emma Goldman, Peter Kropotkin, Rudolf Rocker, don’t rely on what the mainstream depicts anarchy to be. It is a philosophy which believes in peace, freedom, and equality, maybe oppression sounds better to you since you seeem to enjoy the current system, but to act as if anarchy is this horrible thing shows a lack of real understanding. Next time there is a natural disaster, who are you going to call, your government? The same govenrment which failed you on Katrina? The same government which failed you on 9/11? The same government which tells you that any day there could be a terrorist attack and that they are to inept and foolish to stop it? The same government that continues to do nothing about global warming, the most serious threat that exists in this world? Anarchism is about people coming together collectively to do things, and eliminates hierarchical authority, seeking to create a world without governments which continue to oppress the people. And your comment about religious zealots and rogue nations, and this would somehow make the world ran by anarchists? How do you figure upon this? We are opposed to all forms of hierarchical authority, and to say that we would somehow “rule” the world, is a paradox, for we do not believe in “ruling” as in, anarchists ruling over everyone else, we believe in a world in which there is no “rule” as it is, because no one has more power than the other, for us to rule over anyone would contradict what we believe, therefor not making us anarchists. And anarchism is a legitimate political belief, just as socialism, and communism are, just that we recognize that the people don’t need a state. The world has been ran without hierarchical authory before, and it can be ran so again (maybe you should research Spain during the Spanish civil war, and see that it was anarchy, but there wasn’t chaos, and it was run much better than yoru capitalist societies are).
Does anyone here really believe that Iran (or North Korea) really want to build nuclear power plants to generate electricity? Their agendas are not hidden and are stated clearly. If they really want power, we should help them generate it via solar cells. . .
David - the US is obviously not heading toward fascism. In fact, if we use the “14 points” misapproach to defining same, we were more fascist in the past then we are now (does anyone think the US is **more** sexist today than previous eras? Really? How about the “stolen” election of 1960? The brutal justice of the wild west? Etc. Please tell me you are merely joking, i get it! Funny!)
In any case, i do not advocate the invasion of Iran. Merely that we stop “helping” them advance with technology beyond their knowledge and wisdom.
Sorry to cause your brain to boggle with the idea that the choices are not between white and black, but rather shades of grey. It is a confusing world we live in, but perhaps you have distilled it down to something simple and comfortable for yourself.
anarcho-liberation - oppressed? In the US? You really need to get out more!
Afford another war? Hell, too many Americans can’t afford to pay their house note much less finance another bonus for Haliburton and Black Water execs. bush should be more worried about so many Americans not being able to afford to go to the doctor or dentist, or the fact that the U S has a negative savings rate, that credit card debt has rendered people making as much as six figure incomes virtual indentured servants. bush ought to be more concerned that the dollar is on its way to not being worth much more than the Mexican peso and that the airports are so messed up it takes a whole day to go anywhere even if you’re only in the air a couple hours. Making sure more than half of the interstate bridges aren’t potential death traps should be a higher priority than whether Iran can nuke Israel. Sorry, I’m one of those selfish ass Americans tired of paying for wars that aren’t being fought for my benefit.
“people making as much as six figure incomes virtual indentured servants.”
Talk about being irresponsible. Surely you don’t blame this on Bush or anyone other than those who so badly mismanage their incomes?
The trick to not being a wage slave is simple. Save a minimum of 10% of your income, preferably 20%. Invest in a broad based mutual fund (401K or IRA are optimal) and wait a few decades. Then decide what to do with the rest of your life.
As a bonus - find a job you like and work can be fulfilling and even enjoyable.
We live our lives by the choices we make. That is freedom. Life is good.
Wolf-perhaps a definition of fascism would help you.” Fascism is a political regime that is characterized by a high degree of concentration of power in the state, in one political party or in one person, accompanied by a messianic and belligerent form of nationalism, by the usurpation of legislative and judicial prerogative by the executive branch of the government, by the suppression of individual freedoms at home, by the worshipping of national symbols such as flags, and by a rise of militarism and the pursuit of military expansions abroad, often so as to avenge some perceived humiliation.”
Are you naive enough to believe that we aren’t already essentially a fascist state? We certainly are not a democratic state, the Iraq war of all things has proven that.
And yes, oppressed. If you want to call your oppression “freedom” then you can go ahead and deny what is right in front of your eyes. You need to get out more. The only freedom that exists is the freedom that your masters have convinced you exists, you haven’t freedom. You are subject to laws, and restrictions. Unless you’ve been living under a rock, you should realize that we obviously don’t have the rights and freedom we are thought to. To an extent yes, we have freedom, but can you call it freedom if it only exists with permission from the State? Even the rights given to you by the constitution are now suddenly becoming more and more absent. The freedom to peacefully assemble-at protests they have police shooting people with rubber bullets, shooting tear gas into the crowds, arresting activists, and beating activists. As long as you choose to obey the system, you are not free. The very exercise of hierarchical authority is not freedom. As Thoreau pointed out:
“Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.”
The rest of my response to your continuing ideas about iran bcan be found in the post after this.
Wolf-
“Does anyone here really believe…(they are) building nuclear power plants to generate electricity? Their agendas are not hidden and are stated clearly. If they really want power, we should help them generate it via solar cells. . .”
They’re agendas aren’t hidden? Give me a quote that they’ve said they are creating nukes. You’re basically just giving the same lines as the Bush regime. You make assertions which have no facts or evidence to support them, and stand against the amounting evidence which points the opposite. War with Iran isn’t about a “threat”, it is about hegemony, thus the reason why they go back and forth on their assertions just like they did with Iraq, never presenting a valid argument, just asserting that Iran is a threat because they are either funding Shiite militias in Iraq, or building nukes, or is supporting Al Qaeda, and anyone who challenges them is wrong. You probably believed their Iraq lines as well, but those turned out to be dead wrong now didn’t they?
What else do you want to assert? Maybe Bolivia is also supporting Al Qaeda, after all, your “leaders” want to go to war with them too. IF you want to continue living in Fox News land, then everything is great in America, and the rest of the world is a threat to us. In the real world however, things exist differently.
Ignoring facts though. Lets examine the impact a war would have. Even if Iran acquires a nuke, do you honestly think they are a serious threat? If they were to attack Israel or the US it would be suicidal (neither of which Khamenie will back). Putting aside the costs, and what Iran is doing, do you not realize what the effect would be? It would first of all further destabilize Iraq, and Afghanistan. The Iraq effect increased terrorist attacks over 600% and helped Jihadist ideology and terrorist groups. The Iraq effect would seem minor compared to the Iran effect though. It would only help terrorist groups, and you can bet that this is the exact move that Bin Laden is wanting. It could very likely also create World War III, with countries such as Russia, and central Asian nations conducting war games last spring in preperation for US strikes, as well as many other nations which are saying they will not tolerate a US strike. Do you propose we take the risk of starting such a huge war, just because Iran might be developing nuclear weapons (should we take this risk based off of a thought crime if you will, Iran’s intention to build nuclear weapons?). Whatever threat that would exist if Iran does indeed create nuclear weapons, would not outweigh the threats posed to the world if we went to war with them. Hezbollah would surely unleash terrorist attacks upon us, and the disasterous consequences of such a war should be seriously examined, before we just jump into going to war. This isn’t the game of Risk, nor is it a game of chess, there are much larger consequences which could come forth out of attacking them, then you realize. Even if you feel Iran is creating a nuclear weapon, examine what the consequences would be should we take military action against them.
anarcho: last time I visited my country, Argentina, there was a family gathering. The younger generation, which had been in their early twenties when I left surrounded me and were eager to know what I was. My reply that I was ahuman being wasn’t satisfactory enough, in these time where everyone is supposed to have a label, so I had to add: I am an anarchist. Smiles froze, and when I intended to explain what that means the elders of the family tried to deviate conversation so that their children wouldn’t be contaminated by my outrageous ideas. It seems for some obscure reason I have never been able to understand, most people need to have some form of power over them, be it political or religious as a way to feel safer. Life isn’t safe, nothing is certain, only lack of prejudice, compassion to all and good will to work together to make a better world can make the difference but first you have to overcome fear, greed and selfishness. Thank you for replying to whattheheck on my behalf. I will end by saying that if a natural disaster ocurred I wouldn’t dream of calling anybody, I would do my best to do in my modest measure whatever I could to help and, who knows, maybe some other anarchist would come along without being called.
Maria:
I am familiar with the response that you received from your family, I too have experienced that response from family as well as friends. It was seen as just a silly belief to them at first, and then when they realized that it was something I had actually thought about, and read upon, and believed seriously, then it was that hiding my ideas so others aren’t “contaminated” as you put it. America seems to be the most obedient and reliant upon authority of everywhere else, which is ironic considering the very people who found it often spoke of dissent and rebellion against authority as a good thing. It is always difficult for me to understand that even if a person believes in the current system, that they would view those of us who wish to achieve freedom, equality, and a more peaceful world as having something “wrong” with us.
“It seems for some obscure reason I have never been able to understand, most people need to have some form of power over them, be it political or religious as a way to feel safer. “
It is the way that they have been conditioned by authority as the reason why people want such power over them, is the way I feel. It is difficult for them to grasp that idea that they don’t need them when they have had the idea so enforced in their heads that everything good is given to us by authority. Yet, if we look at the things that people view so favorably that they have, it isn’t that the government willfully gave it to them, it is that the governments were forced by the people to give it to them.
“Life isn’t safe, nothing is certain, only lack of prejudice, compassion to all and good will to work together to make a better world can make the difference but first you have to overcome fear, greed and selfishness”
Those words are very true. As I believe it was said by Chomsky, the differences that we have, for any sane person, are things to celebrate. Our differences are things to recognize of beauty, but sadly, people feel inclined to follow the authority which always preaches violence against those who are different.
And your welcome for the reply to whattheheck.
Solidarity-
Wolf-
On another note to your response to the other guy.
” We live our lives by the choices we make. That is freedom. Life is good.” You’ve got to be kidding me? Do you honestly think we are even allowed to make choices? We have no serious choices to make, because we are wage slaves, and our lives are dictated by the need to make money, and little amount at it. We do not make choices, we are coerced into doing things by our need to make the wages.
You said that people are irresponsible with their incomes, and mismanaging them because they can’t afford to go to the doctor and such? How do you even figure this? You have no logic to any of your arguments, just shallow points which lack any substance or thought into how the system works. You are the same slave as the rest of us, but you just refuse to realize it. The majority of the wealth of the country is in the hands of the richest elite, and then the rest is unequally divided up to the public. We are divided into classes, and the people who work the hardest often are the ones who get the worst wages, and when they break their backs working their asses off, what do they get? A big screw you from the system. You’re probably one of those people who sits there and gripes about public welfare, and public crime, and how we need to crack down on both, but when it comes to corporate welfare, and corporate crime, that’s acceptable. The capitalist system exploits the workers, and gives all the benefits to an elite group, how is that freedom? We still are submitting to a higher “authority” and aren’t allowed to make any choices ourselves.
Again, we do not have the freedom you think we have. We have no say so in the system, we have no say so in the way our society is ran, we simply submit to “authorities” who claim that this is a democracy. We are deprived of our freedoms by the economy, and by the state.
“Do you honestly think we are even allowed to make choices? We have no serious choices to make, because we are wage slaves, and our lives are dictated by the need to make money, and little amount at it. We do not make choices, we are coerced into doing things by our need to make the wages.”
—————-
Anarcho,
First off the U.S. is not a democracy it is a republic, but that is a different topic.
As to your assessment of life in the U.S.
Sheesh! You succeed in doing good in the world and all the nutjobs come out in force to criticize.
In the first six months of 1942, immediately after Pearl Harbor, the United States wrote purchase orders for war materials and related war efforts that exceeded the GNP. The national debt during WWII reached over 125% of GNP.
Right now the national indebtedness is falling in comparison to GNP. To say that the United States “can’t afford” another war is patently ridiculous. This is the only war in American history in which the deficit is falling. Winning without fighting (against Iran and NoKo, for examples) is much preferable to winning with fighting, but the dollar cost is negligible and simply not a factor when dealing with head hunters and practitioners of human sacrifice, such as the Jihadists.
Civilian and military casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq are also negligible compared to previous wars, and civilian casualties in Iraq are a small fraction of the civilian murders during Saddam’s regime. The American casualties in Iraq/Afghanistan are very much on the order of 09/11, Beirut, and Mogadishu. making the current war on terror casualty rate the lowest in American history, both in absolute and relative terms.
Nazi is short for Nationalsozialistische (National Socialist), it does not mean National Capitalist. Both Socialism and Fascism are shabby intellectual constructs designed to give power to totalitarians (Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, and Hillary, if and when she achieves power).
Democratic, rule-of-law capitalism is the only thing that stands between the United States and another round of world totalitarian excess. You collectivists and anarchists think you can make the ideal world by imposing your failed values on the American Republic. You are as dumb as dog shit. Never happen.
Whattheheck-
“certainly each of us is facing different personal issues. Some are born into better economic circumstances, racial biases are an issue for a substantial segment, some are better looking, more talented — intelligence and health play a major role. Many people do not make the most of their opportunities. Many want more no matter how well off they already are. Some make poor choices (Yes, we do make choices.) early in life which hamper their futures — having children they can’t afford is more lasting than buying a house beyond reason. A criminal record. Choosing a job with little demand. The choices are infinite. “
You seem to not be too naive as to some of the problems with the system, yet you fail to analyze them overall as being a product of the system, and instead choose as most do, to blame it on the people. Yes, some spend more than they have, but does the very society we live in not promote this behavior? Do the authority figures which people have been told to follow, as we are told that they have the answers not direct us towards that lifestyle of overspending and overconsuming? That is the very nature of Capitalism in general, is to overconsume. The system does not provide the overwhelming oppurtunities which you think it does, and yes, there are choices involved for people, but as you basically say without directly pointing it out, is that people are most of the time forced to become wage-slaves, working jobs that they don’t care to work for low amounts, because the system has screwed them over. Certainly the majority of America is not well off, and this should be obvious. How can we expect people to live off of minimum wage, better yet, even twice the amount of minimum wage which is still by the governments own standards, poverty levels. People often times do have to overspend just to survive; making low amounts of money doesn’t pay the bills. As for the idea that people are having children which they can’t afford to have, yes, in the cases of the LDS religion especially people are having waay to many kids, but they are also indoctrinated by the church “authority” that they have to do so in order to get into heaven. People are also forced to pay tithings to the LDS church as well as other churches which make sure that people believe htey are ging to hell if they don’t. Then you have taxes which people have to pay, getting screwed over on those, while the government continues to give tax breaks to the wealthiest. Inequality in America is a huge problem, while the system isn’t addressing, but only seeking to make worst. At it, the capitalist system seeks to exploit foreign countries, enforcing neoliberal economic policies which do not benefit the people, and then ends up creating worser economic conditions in those countries which lead to things such as illegal immigration, which in the end leads to people coming to America who are either becoming slaves through the governments guest-worker program, or working for lesser amounts of money then Americans can afford to work for, which doesn’t help the situation of American jobs-something which can’t be blamed on immigrants, and only can be blamed on the system. Criminal record is also a difficulty on getting a job, as you said. It becomes difficult to blame it on them though, considering the fact that crime is mostly a result of the breakdown of social order which is mostly caused by the inequality that the system once again creates.
“Whatever your own circumstances which have you feeling like a “slave to the system” you are free to go someplace you think will be better. Start from where you are and decide were you are able to go where opportunity is greater. Whatever our county’s faults — I can’t think of anywhere I would rather be.”
First off, your idea that one can really escape capitalism is difficult when the US through wars, imperialism, and other actions have created basically a global capitalist economy. And anywhere that doesn’t have policies which are friendly to capitalism (thus unfriendly to the people) really isn’t safe to live, because the US is likely to take some action to create it into a free market system eventually.
Even if I could go somewhere else though, why should I have to leave? Why should I have to seek out another place to live? Afterall, this countries is supposed to belong to the people, not a small minority, and when the people are getting screwed over, they have an obligation to not just pack up and leave, they have an obligation to make things better for themselves. As i have said before, I believe the change which would make things better is an anarchist society. Capitalism and State go hand and hand with each other, and oppression is an element with both. Even ignoring my anarchist perspective, if you look at what this government is supposed to provide the people with according to the constitution, and the bill of rights, this government cleary no longer does. We are now subject as people to human rights abuses, discrmination based on class or race, police brutality, oppressive laws, intrusive legislation and laws such as the Patriot Act, we have no habeus corpus if we are suspected of terrorism because, well, according to one Senator, habeus corpus for prisoners at Gitmo would create a clog in the system, etc. So basically we have a system which our rights can no longer be granted to us because it will create a clog in the system, we have a government which wages w ars for the sake of empire (something which numeerous presidents have warned against) and corporate profits, doesn’t care about the people or what we want, amongst many other problems. We are forced to do things we don’t want, work many hours for shitty pay, obey laws and rules which restrict our freedom, and largely are not allowed to do what we want unless the State feels it won’t hurt their standing too much, hell, if we peacefully gather to protest a war we risk getting tear gas shot at us. So, it isn’t that I “feel” because of my circumtances that I am subject to slavey, it is because the reality of the situation shows that we are essentially slaves.
Scorp-
Even if the US can afford to go to another war, the result of that war will ultmately cost the public, and only benefit corporations and the already wealthy. Social programs have already been slashed, with Bush’s war in Iraq, and if you really insist that w can spend more money and everything will be just fine, then why the hell is the countries infrastructure falling apart? That money that is spent on war could be spent to do things such as, oh, fix bridges, and other things that are neccessary.
The money which is going to be directed towards attacking Iran is only a theft from the poor and the hungry of the world, as we further direct money away from helping those in poverty, and those in hunger, as well as spending money on humanitarian missions and such, and continue to spend more and more money on war. An initial attack may not be that costly in your mind, but the effect of being at war with multiple nations, as, attacking Iran will surely piss off Russia and other nations, is going to cost more than you are taking into consideration. Not to mention the fact that if we attack Iran it will further destabilize Iraq, costing more money.
The cost in the end though in dollars isn’t as relevant as the cost of lives. We’ve killed millions in Iraq and who knows how many more will end up dead as a result of an attack on Iran. If we attack Iran, civilians are going to be killed, which is going to create a rise in terrorism obviously, and will help out organizations such as Al Qaeda, why is it people like you are so naive that you don’t see this?
And the United States has killed more Iraqi’s than Saddam ever has, but to say that Saddam alone killed them is difficult, because of US complicity in all of his crimes. We sold him Weapons of Mass Destruction, we sold him chemical warfare, and oh yes, it was our apache helicopters which he needed in order to use the chemical weapons which resulted in the genocide he committed. But oh no, America’s governmetn is far to perfect to be guilty right? Has it ever occured to you that you have the same attitude as the Nazi’s themselves did with the German government? You have strong nationalism which doesn’t benefit youo or the rest of us, further going along with yoru slavery, and indoctrination by this system will not make things better.
“Democratic, rule-of-law capitalism is the only thing that stands between the United States and another round of world totalitarian excess.”
Give me a break. Democracy and Capitalism are the two most incompatible things there are. The interests of the market are held above the interests of the people at all times, and the decisions, the laws, and the rules are always reflective of the wants of the elite class. Anytime a society is divided into classes, you cannot define that as freedom or democracy. Yu have a flawed definition of democracy. The system is corporatist, it works for the corporations, and creates wage slaves out of the people, we are forced to serve people who don’t act in our interests. We are in a society of masters and slaves, and the masters need the slaves, the slaves don’t need the masters. This system is modeled off of the ideas of Miltin Friedman, and Friedmans ideas are hardly democratic. Neoliberal economic policies do not represent freedom, democracy, or anything else you want to say America represents, once you stop believing this just because those who are in positions of power told you this, the sooner you will be better off.
“You collectivists and anarchists think you can make the ideal world by imposing your failed values on the American Republic. You are as dumb as dog shit. Never happen.”
if our values are failed then the values which you espouse that America believes in are failed. We belive in freedom, equality, and peace, and a society which the peopple come together collectively to decide on issues, that is democracy in the truest since of the word. Our ideas won’t happen if stupid people like you keep on following leaders which profess to represent peoples interests when they really don’t. You attack us because you dont’ understand us. You probably go with the popular idea that we believe in chaos and destruction, ideas which you get from authorites. Any system which forces you to obey, and follow laws is oppressive, and we, are far past our dependency on a hierarchical structure, where you, are apparently too afraid to abandon them. Apparently you can’t live without them, and have some dependency on following others because it is to difficult for you to accept the idea that you are in control of your own life. Your type of people are the same people who go to church loyally on Sunday and follow a god and a Christ because you have this sense of obedience which you’ve been taught you can’t live without. Anarchists are free in all the ways you will never be, we live in all the ways which you would like to think that you do but in reality lack the understanding that you are deprived of the means to live in that way by the system. The things you follow are simply abstract ideas which don’t physically exist, it takes indoctrinating the public and brainwashing them to continue to suppress the reality that we have lived without those ideas in the past, and we can do it again.
The idea that capitalism is setting us apart from totalitarian regimes and such is very naive. Capitalist ideas flourish within the totalitarian regime in China, which has adopted the ideas of disaster capitalism from Friedman. And capitalism is the system which creates the governments which you deem to be so horrible and keeps them in power, the capitalism which has flourished through Latin America has been a prime example, the system which you propose goes so well with democracy, was used by military dictatorships ran off of human rights abuses (which capitalism promotes).
Many important factors are different. During WW2 the top tax bracket was over 90 percent!
whattheheck, your WW2 body count is short for many millions, unless you don’t consider the rest of the deaths as “significant”. Believe me, they were as they are now, most people don’t want a war, any war because it kills them or their loved ones, ruins their land and changes their lives forever.
Wolf, don’t you worry, nobody is trying to impose anything on your American Rep
Sorry, Wolf, I didn’t mean you, I meant scorp. The problem is I mixed you up because you seem to think alike in many respects. Peace be with you, while I continue hoping no more innocent blood is shed in the name of the empire, be it in Asia or in your land.
Anarcho -
You are assuming that 09/11, Beirut, and Mogadishu were cost free. Can you justify that novel historical and economic interpretation? Every time a person stands in line at the airport, it reasonably costs him $50 per hour, money that was not required and time that was not lost before 09/11. A reasonable cost for 09/11 is somewhere north of $1 trillion, and still counting after all these years.
No shot, Sheerluck. The biggest social program was Welfare, brought to us by LBJ and his “Great Society”. Several years ago, George Will stated that the total cost of the Welfare program was $6 trillion, (comparable to the national debt, which I’m sure you also complain about) but in extensive research of the federal budget records from the 1970s to the 1990s, I was only able to identify about $3 trillion specifically identified as Welfare. But that $3 trillion did not include housing and other programs that probably were included in Welfare.
You know, of course, that Bubba ended the Welfare program for good reason; Welfare had a massive destructive effect on black families, besides being hideously expensive. Pat Moynihan stated that LBJ’s Welfare program would be a disaster, and it was.
Your off-the-wall observations are classic. Bubba stupidly allowed the dot.com Bubba Bubble to develop, leading to unsustainable surpluses, and he should have realized that all bubbles eventually pop. The Bubba Bubble began falling apart in the last year of Clinton’s presidency, when the surpluses stopped growing, two quarters had negative growth, the DOW peaked and started down, and the NASDAQ lost half its value.
When you have the world’s most productive economy, and you can borrow money for 2-3%, and get a 10% return on investment, you should be borrowing all you can from the Chinese, Japanese, Europes, whomever. You should not be pissing away good money to build a surplus.
The three primary needs of this country are Social Security, medical care, and infrastructure. Why in the hell Bubba wasted all those years paying down the debt defies belief. Like just how stupid is that son-of-a-bitch?
You shitting me, boy?
How about Communism and Democracy? The Soviet Union collapsed of inefficiency and corruption, does that give you the tiniest clue that Communism and Democracy might be incompatible? The Soviets held regular elections, did that make them a Democracy?
Of course, you and your ilk go on and on and on and on about how bad things are in the USA, but who believes the Collectivist propaganda?
The big joke for years in the Soviet Union was, “They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work.” That was why the system was so corrupt and inefficient.
Um, no, I get the not-so-popular idea from Antonio Gramsci, who laid out a specific program of social communism, as opposed to economic communism, which he early realized to be a an abject failure. Social communism is a plan to subvert institutions (media, schools, churches, courts, politics) in order to install a Collectivist tyranny and create the New Soviet Man in the USA.
Don’t worry, you are perfectly safe as long as you don’t resort to violence and fraud, as Lenin and Stalin did in very similar circumstances, and Soros and Hillary are now flirting with.
Anarcho,
Slavery in the U.S. is only a mind set. I’m not saying you SHOULD leave, just that you COULD leave.
I’m also a victim of the outsourcing. I have the names of 56 individuals I know who have lost their jobs, been forced to take early retirement or have gone out of business. (My case is one of the latter.)
I first began to see it happening in the mid1980s when a fastener mfg. client shifted their operation to Taiwan. I see the NAFTA vote in 1993 as the “official” blessing by congress and wrote to everyone I could think of protesting it as stupid and detrimental to our economy. Our representatives fell for the line that it would provide the consumer with better prices. The National Chamber of Commerce pointed to the increasing U.S. exports (Yes, to those companies which used to be in this country was ignored.) The AFL-CIO answered essentially saying you mind your business and we’ll mind ours. My clients quoted the “competitive advantage” theory and said they had no choice if they wanted to stay in business. The NRA — one of the most vocal supporters of U.S. citizens’ rights— said, “We are a one issue organization.”
I thought for sure the UAW would not stand for it. Surely people would rebel against the emasculating of U.S. industry. Boy, was I wrong!
Just as the Nazis took one group at a time instead of all at once — those nearing retirement went quietly, those in middle management fell as individuals, and those still left thought, “It won’t happen to me.”
Certainly some in positions of power knew what was happening and how they could benefit. But after reading a score of books pro and con about globalization, I see most of them as following their Econ 101 textbook theories right down the line.
Now, there are websites calling for opposition to what is happening, but all they want is your dollars — in most cases you cannot even send an email.
One client told me they were insisting their suppliers lower their prices just as Wal-Mart and K-Mart had done to them. When I said I would not do that to my suppliers since they had provided good service at reasonable prices and they had to earn a living he said I would go out of business. He was right, but because companies like his (my customers) are gone too.
It is greed at all levels which have brought us to this sorry condition. Not just the greed of those at the top, but also the individuals who went along rather than speak out in the board rooms, the union meeting and the single owner companies like mine who gave in to the demands of the Big Box stores and companies.
You say you are “willing to fight” to change the “system”. Just what do you think you can do?
Change will come in due time. Many people are still in denial. My friends who are a bit older and retired before me still can’t see it. But — when enough people feel the pain, the dollar is low enough and the U.S. is no longer the consumer of world output — the flow will reverse.
Everything is interconnected. The current subprime lending scam is a good example. We know the pain is being felt by the home buyer who bought beyond his means — but there are big time investors who thought they could benefit and are now caught it the web. There will be thousands of over priced homes whose prices will come down to the affordability level. Greed provides its own chastisement.
There is a FREE MARKET! Not the one the financial analysts preach, but the one of supply and demand. No one can control Mr. Market indefinitely. My son was in the Soviet Union in 1984. For 70 years they had set government prices and production quotas — it didn’t work. The real price on everything was set by the black market where the buyers offered what they were willing to pay and the sellers took what they were willing to accept.
If you find a short cut let me know.
Maria,
Yes, you are correct. There are estimates of as many as 60 million deaths. Stalin alone is believed to have been responsible for 20 million. I was thinking in comparative U.S. losses WW2/ Iraq.
However much people may not want war
“Peace be with you, while I continue hoping no more innocent blood is shed in the name of the empire, be it in Asia or in your land”
Maria - your hopes are my hopes. The details of how to get from here to there vary, but nonetheless, we both hope for peace and harmony in the world at large.
anarcho-liberation - i do not know where or how you live, but it sounds like an entirely different place (mindset?) than where i hail from. Here (the land of the free?) i am able to decide what profession i wish to pursue, how many children i want, what religion i wish to follow (if any), and how i wish to allocate my financial and other resources. My life is full of my choices, some good and some bad. In a wide variety of ways (antibiotics come immediately to mind!), these are the best of times, ever. (Disclaimer: No implication is made to project these amazing times forward to the uncertain future, where anything may happen.)
You also wrote: “You said that people are irresponsible with their incomes, and mismanaging them because they can
Wolf said:
“How sad it must be to grow up in such primitive conditions, when wealth and knowledge are both available to them. I pity those who are unlucky enough to be born there. But perhaps they will come out of savagery and ignorance and eventually find they way into the modern world (rather than attempting to destroy same). One can only hope, for their sakes and ours.”
That’s how I feel about people growing up in Texas under the radical Christian fundamentalists. All fundamentalist could stand to read Richard Dawkin’s book the God Delusion IMO.
mrraven has an interesting point that emphasizes my own. Even fundamentalist Texas is **far** more progressive than say, Saudi Arabia or anyplace in Africa. No forced FGM, no requirements to wear burkas, the ability for women to go to school (or the ice cream shop for that matter!) and choose their own careers/husbands/lives. Yep, compared to some western places, Texas may be a bit conservative, but compared to the middle east and Africa (and much of Asia) it is a wonderful place to be.
I see little distinction between fundamentalist Christians versus fundamentalist atheists. Both have faith in the unknowable, they merely differ in the details of said faith.
Wolf the big difference is empirical scientific hypotheses are testable under double blind conditions where as religious beliefs are not.
So are you schilling for Christian fundamentalists who I see as little different than Iranian Muslim fundamentalists as in reverend “god hates fags” Phelps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps
I would no more want to live in his town than I would want to live under the Mullahs.
Wolf said:
“The trick to not being a wage slave is simple. Save a minimum of 10% of your income, preferably 20%. Invest in a broad based mutual fund (401K or IRA are optimal) and wait a few decades. Then decide what to do with the rest of your life.”
Try telling that to someone working at Wal-Mart with a sick child and no health insurance whose choice is take the kid to the doctor, pay the rent, heat the house or eat for the month (chose ONE). And no it’s nothing to do with choices, people ARE going to be doing these jobs for the foreseeable future because gasp we don’t live the Jetsons future where robots do such labor. Of course your dirty secret is you don’t care as long as you get yours. Well don’t be surprised if the chickens come home to roost bearing pitchforks outside the gated communities some day… I won’t cry a single tear when the manager and ownership class to which you belong is deposed for you are 15% and the rest of us are 85% of the population. 85% beats 15% every time, count on it…
mrraven - While i agree with you that Phelps is no good, i assert that he is quite far from the mainstream of US Christianity. He also has no control over the government, unlike the Mullahs. (Yea for the USA!)
I would assert that the most important things in life are not scientific. Love comes immediately to mind, but you might also think of other things that are relevant to your own life as well. I am unaware of any proof that God does not exist (or that he does); thus i keep an open mind (what we do know is that the universe (multiverse?) exists, we have no idea of how or why, ultimately).
I agree that the circumstances which you describe above do not lend themselves to saving. But they are not typical either. For the vast majority of us, we can save 10-20%, we just don’t because we want new shiny stuff. Furthermore note that the assertion was made (not by me!) that “people making as much as six figure incomes virtual indentured servants.
If you talk about a “broad based mutual fund (401K or IRA are optimal) ” I don’t have to “make up stories” I KNOW that you are a yuppie, I KNOW that the MAJORITY of people working crappy service jobs don’t speak that way, the sad thing is you are too far out of touch to even know that, sort of like Bush I being dumbfounded by a supermarket scanner.
No peace without justice I hope you have nightmares of hungry homeless children ASSHOLE!!!!!
Wolf-
You conveniently fail to address all the points which refute your claims, other than simply saying the same repetitive bullshit arguments which rely on your faith in authority and America. You think your government and your country are so great and it’s time you wkae up and realize it’s not. America killed millions of people in World War II, and people like you are going to say it was a noble fight cause we had to stop fascism, yet it was your fucking government which youadore so much which sat there and supported Germany (majority of American’s too), your fucking government that supported Fascism, that chose to do nothing to stop fascism when the war was starting up in Spain (although there were Americans who had the courage to go over there and fight in Spains civil war with our Spanish comrades when YOUR government made it illegal to do so). You speak so proudly that you live in America and not some other shithole but it’s the US government that is making the rest of the world its shithole, and allowing the corporations to continue to exploit them. The capitalistsystem which you love so much is the same system which is exporting jobs in America and relying on little kids in some other third world country working 12 hour days for 3cents an hour in sweatshop labor conditions. It’s your government which claims to be fighting a war on terror, yet is fine when its corporations are supporting right-wing paramlitary death squads in Columbia. Your government which is sponsoring terrorist actions in Iran. Your government which gave power to Osama Bin Laden, and gave all of those pesky terrorists in Afghanistan the weapons that they are now fighting us with. Your government which left people there to die in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, and it was your government htat knew that the levees were going to break, and did nothing about it, because it would harm its public image to much. Your government did nothing to prevent the 9/11 attacks even though it knew that something was going to happen, and your great commander in chief which you love so much was given a PDB directly saying that Osama bin Laden was determined to strike in the US, and even said that he wanted to attack New York, and what did your fearless commander do? He went on vacation. Your government that is torturing people across the world. Your government which is kidnapping citizens of other countries because they are “suspected” of terrorism, and taking them to secret prisons which will torture them. Your government which is allowing corporations such as Hersheys to use human slavery. Your government which has the blood of millions of innocent people on its hands because it, not the people, didn’t feel that the people had a right to choose communism. Your government which overthrew the democratically elected government of Chile, because it was marxist. Your government supported the rise to power of a military dictatorship which killed, tortured, kidnapped, and enforceed a brutal reign throughout its years because they wanted a capitalist system instead (which Pinochet followed with), because that freedom to choose their goverenment was to harmful to USinterests to let them decide Marxist. Your govenrment is killing millions in Iraq. Your government created the displacement of millions of people in Iraq, Your government has cuased millions of refugees to come out of Iraq. Your governmeent which overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran, and installed the military dictatorship of the Shah which once again was repressive, and brutal on its people. Your government supports Saudi Arabia(Israel too), the biggest human rights violator in the world. Your government inititated Operation Condor. Your government which continues to discrminate agianst indigenous people. A simple look at the news, shows all of the ugly, and evil policies which your government supports.
Wolf-
Now, you have based everyone of your comments on the same fucking ideology which is America is great, and America is the best, and America is free. You fail to show through facts how it is, and only rely on the same arguments. America is ran by corrupt leaders, and authority figures who work for their own benefits. The system which you love is slowly becoming more and more of a disaster capitalist system. If you read what Friedman actually said, and believed in, and read what is really happening you’d realize a lot more. Everything good in this country is a result of the people forcing the government against its will to give it to us. And those people which have provided so much great, are dissidents, and activists which have never been right-wing, which you apparently are. In fact, the labor movement which provided better working conditions, was largely the result of anarchists, and was opposed by capitalists of course. It was demanded by the people that better working conditions be created, and so they were, it wasn’t the government, and it wasn’t the capitalists which gave it to them. Many have been killed by your government in the struggle for better labor conditions, and now, people like you shame those peoples memories. You are one of those people who has relied upon the history taught you by authority, the type of history which teaches the state’s perspective, and never shows what actually happened. I suggest you read some Howard Zinn books in order to break free of this.
You love this country, and say that we have such great freedom, and democracy. I dissagre with you obviously, but what good we do have in this country, is in your mind something which the State has provided us with because it is good, when in reality, it is only there because people have risen up, the good things which you love are the result of dissidents, activists, anarchists, socialists, communists, and others who have realized the flaws within this system and government. Thsoe are the very people which authority in America teaches you to hate and think are evil. You believe America is great because you don’t want to have to get off your ass and make a difference to make things better. As you think anarchy is such a flawed idea, you put your faith in right-wing leaders who want to do away with the government anyways, because the government is imposing too many regulations on the market in their minds. They are the ones who want a truly free market, in which the corporations are allowed to do whatever they want for the sake of profit, and exploit us even more. Their dreams are a country where the people have no say so, but the market determines every aspect of life. This is not democracy, nor is it freedom, for the needs of the people and market, are as I said earlier, largely different.
You want to talk about religion? You think we are this perfect society where every religion is treated equally? What about wiccans? What about Muslims who are rounded up because we assume they are terrorists? I mean, cmon, ever since 9/11 we have looked at every muslim as a terrorist, and have locked many of them up. Are you going to tell me that is religious freedom? I can’t escape Christianity no matter where I go, nor can I escape people preaching about your feeble Christ. We hear slogans of “Jesus saves” everywhere we go, and have our government passing laws based off of their religious beliefs (birth control decisions are one example). The majority of the people who have been in the Bush regime have graduated from Pat Robertsons religious school, and the Republicans which you seem to follow so blindly, were all deeply saddened when the hate mongerer piece of shit Jerry Falwell died.
If you want to be enslaved, that’s fine, but don’t give me this line of shit of freedom, because your idea of freedom is really just oppression. If you really want to continue to comment as well, then I would encourage you to actually refute the facts which I present, but I guess that would be too difficult to do the research huh? Having to think outside the box, instead of just believing in everything your “leaders” tell you, is a difficult task for someone so indoctrinated.
”
You should read more carefully before making such silly assertions as above! Your response includes both a made up opinion you ascribe to me and your straw man reply. Very sloppy!”
Aren’t you cute? I’m so glad that you had an ability to deconstruct my argument by saying it’s silly and sloppy. Either you read too far into my statement or you are too ignorant to understand. You once again fail to discuss the points that I raised. And reaelly, I’m just going to go with what mrraven said because he hit the nail right on the head:
“The trick to not being a wage slave is simple. Save a minimum of 10% of your income, preferably 20%. Invest in a broad based mutual fund (401K or IRA are optimal) and wait a few decades. Then decide what to do with the rest of your life.”
Try telling that to someone working at Wal-Mart with a sick child and no health insurance whose choice is take the kid to the doctor, pay the rent, heat the house or eat for the month (chose ONE). And no it’s nothing to do with choices, people ARE going to be doing these jobs for the foreseeable future because gasp we don’t live the Jetsons future where robots do such labor. Of course your dirty secret is you don’t care as long as you get yours. Well don’t be surprised if the chickens come home to roost bearing pitchforks outside the gated communities some day… I won’t cry a single tear when manager and ownership class to which you belong is deposed for you are 15% and the rest of are 85% of the population. 85% beats 15% every time, count on it…” I too, would like to hear a response to that.
Scorp,
Last night while watching “The War” I noticed the B-24s produced at Ford had over a million parts. We were able to produce a plane every 63 minutes!
Look at us now that our manufactruring has been deported.
NAFTA
Anarcho,
I realize there are many people who fit your example of the Wal-Mart employee. Their numbers have been on the increase for some time now. Unless or until a person or someone close to him is in that situation it is hard to realize or understand.
Maybe you are just venting at Wolf because it is impossible to communicate with the ones who could/should do something about it. There are a couple of men in congress who have been addressing the issue, but are vastly out numbered. Bernie Sanders and Byron Dorgan come immediately to mind. Unfortunately, after the drubbing Perot took I have not heard any candidate for the White House come close to the problem. He was only wrong about the sound effects— a slow hssssss instead of a Giant Sucking Sound so far.
Wolf,
I recommend the book, “Nickel and Dimed” by Barbara Ehrenreich to get a feeling for what many hard working people are facing.
Hi WTH -
I agree that some fraction of Americans are unable to save due being employed in low paying jobs. Many of these same people are better off in later years, either through getting more job training or simply by advancing up the ladder. Some, of course, never advance and never do better. This is unfortunate, but has always been that way and is likely to continue into the foreseeable future.
However, my assertion is that the vast majority of us (but not everyone) can save if we choose to. Many do not *choose* to, but buy nicer cars, electronic toys, cell phones, etc. The example given by theloneous was that people making 6 figures were having a hard time making ends meet (!!!). While i do not doubt that, i do think it is very likely due to a lack of personal responsibility and not the fault of government policies. One might think that readers of this site would be advocating less consumerism (as i do), which would naturally lead to more personal wealth over time. . .
Having started out quite poor myself, i am a strong advocate of education. It has at least two major benefits: broadening the mind and enhancing ones earning potential. Plus in many cases, it can lead to finding a career that is more than just a way to get money - something personally fulfilling and also useful to society. It certainly worked for me and can/does work for many many people.
“Some fraction” equals more than a third including the homeless, “discouraged workers,” and the increasing number of service workers as the U.S. de-industrializes under the shock therapy of corporate globalization. Again Wolf (good name for you BTW) your dirty secret is that you don’t care as long as you have yours. Well I say a pox on your house for an attitude of not caring that so many millions suffer both here in the U.S. and in the third world because of the policies you advocate.
“Well I say a pox on your house for an attitude of not caring that so many millions suffer both here in the U.S. and in the third world because of the policies you advocate.”
Yeah advocating savings for those who can and education in general is pretty darnright nasty of me (really, a pox?). Not to mention my persistent politeness, even when attacked with little or no provocation. Yep, i can really see where you are coming from - the question is can you?
Anyway, i hope that you can work out your personal ssues and find a measure of happiness. Best of luck to you and yours. Goodbye my surly friend.
Wolf when you are living high off the hog it is real damn easy to be polite. Try doing physical labor all day and you may come to a different view of the world. Further you straw man twisted my words, the people I am talking about are those who will NEVER be able to save no matter what they do. So yes I repeat a pox on your house for endorsing policies that cause people to suffer. I wish you sickness and unemployment with no health insurance THEN perhaps you would know how it feels you unfeeling cretin. I suspect if you lived in those conditions SUDDENLY you would have a miraculous conversion to leftism, after all when your ox is getting gored laissez affaire crony capitalism doesn’t look to good, does it? New age feel good “positive” pablum from the upper middle class has never impressed me and it never will, for it is the thin veneer of civility below which lies policies that lead to people with weeping infected sores living under bridges. Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make a better cake of society, and again I will cry no tears when your egg is broken, for I have cried all my tears for the homeless and for the brave activists (including myself) who have suffered state repression. As Malcom X said sometimes the chickens come home to roost, and there are millions of Wal-Mart employed, homeless, people of color, gay, people living in ecological wastelands, and sick with no insurance chickens so beware rich and smug.
Wolf,
There was a time when I would have agreed with everything you say here. But no longer.
I have too many friends who are not doing anywhere near as well as when they were younger. My own income dropped steadily from the early 1990s until my last client left in 2004.
Job retraining is the stock answer from nearly all who have not missed a paycheck or lost benefits.
I was continuously “retraining” from 1990 to 2004. I made the switch to digital and spent nearly $100,000 on hardware and software over that time frame just to stay in business.
Except for two 2-year periods (when my son worked with me) I was a one man operation. When I compared the last ten years before computers to the first ten with, I found I was working 27.3 percent more non-billable time at work — mostly learning software upgrades.
Today anyone who is not computer literate is severely limited, but knowing how to use them is no great advantage — it is now expected.
So what should a person retrain to do? What do you do and how when your job goes to India, if you are say, 50 with two or three kids in or approaching college age ? What do you do if a member of your family has a major health problem after you lose your job?
You would move to where work is more plentiful, but with high unemployment in your town, everyone is trying to sell his house at the same time?
How can you take time to go back to school? What if you find another job with no health care? My barber is 58, has had open heart surgery, has major prescription expenses and a $15,000 deductible. His premiums come to $10,000 per year — his wife is on another policy at an additional cost.
What do you do when there are no jobs available in your town for which you are qualified, and you cannot afford the transportation to interview where there is one?
These are then kind of things pointed out from first hand experience by Barbara Ehrenreich in her book. Wal-Mart is one of the jobs she took. What a hell hole!
I was fortunate. I got my first job in 1955 and was NEVER turned down for any job I applied for. After starting my own business in 1966 if I lost a client I always found a replacement almost immediately — until I was able to keep so busy I often turned away work1990.
This era must be especially difficult for those at the lowest end of the job scale. I am continuously (pleasantly) surprised there has been little or no violence aimed at illegal aliens yet. Added to their problem is the older, better educated worker who must continue to work and will take that job at McDonald’s or Wal-Mart.
Another book with concrete examples of how hard it is to get a living wage job is an autobiographical one, “Selling Ben Cheever.”
Are you still working? If you are untouched by the economical revolution — you have been very lucky.
I for one, definitely blame government policies which have favored corporate management and pushed globalization with no attempt to moderate it or aid those people being displaced by it. I find it interesting how some of the same people who used the FREE MARKET reason for no gov’t intervention are crying for the gov’t to bail out the sub prime scammers.
Tax cuts are only meaningful to those who are making enough to need to pay taxes.
wth -
You ask a lot of thoughtful questions in your post. While no one can answer them all for all people. there are solutions for many out there. For instance, when my wife’s job disappeared, she retrained to be a nurse. It is a profession that we expect will be in high demand over our lifetimes and contributes nicely to society. Note that this “solution” works best for two income families and (in our case, at least) might involve getting student loans (which we found to be very accessible).
In any case, those who can save should save. Hopefully for retirement, but also in case of unemployment or other financial disaster. Living below ones means is, to my mind, one of the the secrets to happiness. (And yes i know that not everyone can do this, but the majority can and should.)
“This era must be especially difficult for those at the lowest end of the job scale”
I agree that this era can be difficult, but doubt it is anywhere near as difficult as bygone eras. Imagine being “free” on the frontier farm - crops fail and you may starve. No health insurance or care much of the time. No electronics or luxury toys. This era seems to be the best to me, for both rich and poor. As in all eras, being poor still sucks, but unlike most eras, many poor people here have enough to eat (obesity being a significant issue, even for the poor), cheap entertainment (color tv, cable, dvds) and preventative medicine (vaccines).
“My barber is 58, has had open heart surgery, major prescription expenses and a $15,000 deductible and his premium come to $10,000 per year
Wolf sed: “...i have toyed with the idea of changing professions in a few years.”
Do you even understand you are part of a privileged minority Wolf? Do you think the person working full time at Wal-Mart and then coming home to deal with issues of family and house has the time, energy, or money to do what you propose? I would estimate roughly a third of U.S. citizens are STUCK in a position where there is no time for job retraining you speak of, but rather a life of toil, suffering with no end in sight. You are thus condemning through your philosophy 100 MILLION people in the U.S. to a life of hard ship and suffering. If I seem angry it’s because I believe game theorists are right that one ought to respond tit for tat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat
to the behavior of our fellow citizens. In this case you ought not to be surprised that your tit of a laissez affair philosophy that leads to suffering for millions (which yes I have experienced) leads to my tat of wanting to see you suffer in turn. If you want to see a virtuous circle of cooperation you must help those people around you Wolf least they turn on you in extreme anger, again you have been warned, if you continue to advocate for laissez affaire corporate globalization do not be surprised that those who suffer from such a policy decide to rise up against you. Again tit for tat motherf*cker.
Hi, y’all!
Does anyone believe that Iran would be trying to build a nuclear weapon if they were not afraid we were going to invade them next? Nuclear weapons are the only ones we respect, and since President Bushllit’s invasion of Iraq the Iranians have been trying to build one. Note: since the invasion of Iraq the Iranians have been trying to build one.
Thanks Bushllit for wrecking the Middle- East for the next century. Hope the oil profits were worth it!
I thought we were discussing the possibility of USA attacking Iran, but it seems that the subject has changed to learn how smart wolf is, how polite, and why doesn’t everyone imitate his savings policy. I could fill several pages telling you about my experiences but that wouldn’t help anybody. The knot we have before us is the way USA has been producing single-handedly different wars for the past decades, while Europe, Japan, and most of the world seem to have learned through pain what a war means and have refused to take part in them. Someone proposed in this discussion that a coalition be formed against Irak and Iran but I’m afraid you will continue to be alone on perpetrating wars. Have you considered the fact that while you claim to be the “democracy” of the world you haven’t developed a moral sense of respect to others who may think or want for their countries another view? All your wars have been outside your frontiers, while most of your population went on with their lives as if nothing was happening. You have been the only nation to use nuclear weapons against others and I am sure you still have them stacked somewhere handy. You have been behind dictatorships in Latin America, training military in the School of the Americas to torture and disappear people. Latin America has learned its lesson and has been trying to live in peace and develop its own way of living, in spite of the IMF which sent them once and again on the wrong tracks. Please, continue with your polite life, save as much as you can but don’t try to sell your “American dream” to those who have to work like mad to support a family or who live in fear. Wearing a burka or being a Muslim isn’t in itself dangerous to anybody, the way some of you talk about prospective wars, whether they would be costly or profitable is not only dangerous, but it shows a despise towards others which is despicable.
Bravo Maria, clap, clap, clap…
Whattheheck, sorry that I overlooked your reply and please forgive the lateness of my counter-reply.
“Love your enemies? Turn the other cheek?”
Yes ... and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
“Would you do away with the RCMP?”
No. The RCMP did not invade and occupy Iraq and is not threatening Iran with the same.
“Check out history - without enforcement civilization would disintegrate. Who, how and to what degree is debatable, but not IF. “
I am watching civilization in Iraq disintegrate and the USA is primarily responsible for it. Who will enforce the law on the war criminals in your government and bring them to justice?
———
“Nuke “mistake”- What’s the big deal? For decades during the cold war there were B-52s with nukles flying 24/7. Until armed, which requires deliberate action, they are not a problem. “
The big deal is that mistakes with nuclear weapons are a big deal. I am aware that during the cold war there were bombers loaded with nukes. Are you aware that there have been accidents where these planes have crashed and that the USA has lost more than a few nukes before.
Selected Accidents Involving Nuclear Weapons 1950-1993
“What makes you or anyone think the Russians and several others (including us) don’t still have missiles at the ready.”
What makes you think I think this. Nice straw man.
“Do you think on 9/11 those guys flying into buildings wouldn’t have loved to have been able to have nukes?”
Very weak argument ... yawn. Keep knocking down those straw men.
“You reason with them if you like. I prefer to have weapons handy.”
I am reasoning with you (or trying to at least) but I will not resort to violence to solve our differences.
Aunty, you state ” Nuclear weapons are the only ones we respect, and since President Bushllit’s invasion of Iraq the Iranians have been trying to build one. Note: since the invasion of Iraq the Iranians have been trying to build one. “
I will ask you the same question I asked Wolf when he made a similar statement that alleged the Iranians are building nuclear weapons. Where is the evidence for your allegation? Did President Bush say so?
Here is an example of evidence that refutes your allegation:
Here is another bit of evidence that refutes your allegation:
Now, I am not so naive as to believe anything and everything someone says but considering the lies in the run-up to the attack on Iraq please forgive me if I suspect that what President Bush (or a US House of Representatives committee) has to say regarding Iran isn’t a pack of lies too.
David,
You may reason with me, but I’ll not attack you. If some unreasonable person were attacking your family would you still not resort to deadly force?
Planes crashed
Whattheheck-
I ask you to please please please, be realistic and actually look at the root sources of terrorism. The main reaeson for terrorism, is not because they are fundamental muslims, this is such an easy thing to say to label them, but it lacks depth, and understanding of their situation. I can’t believe anyone in 2007 still doesn’t get this, terrorism is caused by US actions in the Middle East; that means, US foreign policy, wars,military bombings, support for repressive regimes in the Middle East such as Saudi Arabia. Why don’t you get this? Read on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, if nothing else, and you’ll see the number 1 cause for terrorism. People don’t just join a terrorist group to go and blow other peole up or themselves up for no reason, and 9/11 was blowback from the US empire. I wonder why people such as yourself advocate war on Iran because it’s a “threat” but Saudi Arabia which is where the majority of the 9/11 hijackers came from, which is a State sponsor of terrorism, which is where the majority of the foreign fighters in Iraq are from, and are getting their support from (note: I don’t advocate war with Saudi Arabia either). By going to war with Iran though, the US will be falling right into the hands of Bin Laden, who wants to turn the world against it.
Iran’s President is no threat! Cmon. He has no power on foreign policy matters, and if the US once again attacks Iran, we’re going to be dealing with a shitload more terrorism, just as Iraq increased terrorism by over 600%, you think that attacking Iran isn’t going to gt more people angry? As David said: ““The Leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has issued the Fatwa that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that the Islamic Republic of Iran shall never acquire these weapons. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who took office just recently, in his inaugural address reiterated that his government is against weapons of mass destruction and will only pursue nuclear activities in the peaceful domain. The leadership of Iran has pledged at the highest level that Iran will remain a non-nuclear-weapon state party to the NPT and has placed the entire scope of its nuclear activities under IAEA safeguards and additional protocol, in addition to undertaking voluntary transparency measures with the agency that have even gone beyond the requirements of the agency’s safeguard system.””
No, Iran’s president isnt’ reasonable, but if a country should be bombed just because the president is unreasonable then oh boy, America is screwed. The supreme leader with all the power, has issued a Fatwa (religious prohibition) against nukes, and said they aren’t going to create them, the IAEA says that Iran doesn’t have high enough uranium levels to create nuks, and they are cooperating. Dont’ tell me you are willing to agree to another stupid attempt to bomb an innocent population just bcause one of your stupid “leaders” who lied to you with Iraq, is lying to you again. Stop basing your foreign policy judgments off of whether a president with no power on foreign policy matters, a president who can’t even move the troops, is no threat. I would advice you read Maria’s latest comment once again, perhaps you missed it, and read it carefully. You cannot advocate killing innocent people based on an unreasonable Iranian president, just like it isn’t justifiable for Russia to come to America and kill innocent people because our president is unreasonable (even more so than Iran’s). Iran has a right to go forward with nuclear energy, just so long as it is used for peaceful purposes, and no one has been able to prove that they are on the way to creating a nuke. Don’t go along with the Bush doctrine, please, for the sake of the people of this world. And please, do some reading on the Iranian government, even on wikipedia, so you have at least some understanding of who has the power.
The US is occupying Iraq, and Afghanistan, it’s participating and supporting the war in Somalia, it is carrying out terrorist actions in Iran, it’s trying to destabilize the entire middle east for its corporate profits, it is trying to destabilize South America, and has plans to go to war with Venezuela and Bolivia, and is attempting to destabilize them because they are opposed to the US empire. The US is more than likely restarting the dirty wars in Latin America. The US is supporting the Israeli occupation of Palestine, a brutal occupation. The US is supporting terrorist groups, still to this day. Iran is believed by neocons with no evidence to be building a bomb, and supports a couple of terrorist groups which aren’t our terrorist groups of choice, and has a president which says stupid things such as they are going to wipe israel off the map, and a supreme leader with the power who contradicts everything the president with no power says. The US has a president and government who wants to bomb the entire world, and threatens anyone who doesn’t go along with our plans for world domination. Who is the biggest threat?
To whomever thinks they know if and when Iran began to build a nuclear weapon
Anarcho,
You are skipping several centuries of bloody history in your belief that our (U.S.) being
Hi, y’all!
davidincanuckistan,
I don’t know if they are or not. If they do, it will be for the reason I mentioned. It wouldn’t surprise me if they did after this turd of a presidency and its Bizzarro World foreign policy.
Hopefully they aren’t. We need another Middle-East war like a turtle needs a drag chute.
Ta-Ta!
Wth-
“You are skipping several centuries of bloody history in your belief that our (U.S.) being “in the Middle East” is the cause of radical Muslim terrorism. “
No, you are making the mistake of once again listneing to the propagand on this subject. This terrorism that we are seeing today is not the same terrorism that Christians, a nd Muslims, committed in the Crusades. And if you want to use that comparison, then Christians are all like Pat Robertson, out to kill muslims. The Iraq war increased the amount of Jihadi recruits Al Qaeda and other organizations got, why do you think that is? If you believe that US actions aren’t causing this terrorism, then you need to rexamine history, and see the US role in the Middle East. People don’t just go volunteer to blow themselves up, they need a desperate situation in order to join the terrorist groups, and that desperate situation is one that the US creates. If you watched your children be brutally murdered in a US airstrike, or people you love die because the US gave Saddam the chemical weapons and helicopters to committ genocide with, after they called for Iraqi’s to rise up, or watch land settlements pop up, along with apartheid walls, and watch Israel’s ethnic cleansing, and genocide, all of which is supported by the US with military actions that wouldn’t be possible without us, or watch as the US overthrows your government, calling it democracy, only to install a repressive military dictatorship, and you’re telling me you’re not going to join a terrorist group because you’re pissed off with those things, that’s not going to push you over the edge, but because there is anti-US propaganda floating around. Iraqi’s aren’t joining the insurgency (or becoming terrorists as the government would like to say) becasue of propaganda, they are joining it because they want the US out of their country.
“I’m sure many people over there resent us, some with good reason perhaps, but others because of the vast amount of anti-American media coverage — including a good deal of it originating here.”
Well, don’t worry, I’m sure their anti-American media coverage is no worse than the anti-Islam media coverage which you pay attnetion to.You can take comfort in the fact that it’s no worse than what Pat Robertson is saying about the Muslim world.
“It appears as if you are very willing to accept anti-American commentary as evidenced by your belief that we are “starting the war in Somalia” and other statements. “
“Anti-American”. I just want to reflect upon this. If you put everything in the terms of “pro-america” or “anti-America” then you can get easily caught up in a very stupid game which is dangerous. No one is neccessarily anti-American, they are against the governments actions abroad, and for me personally, my attitudes which are considered by many “anti-American” are not a result of being anti-america, but of being anti-government, and pro-human beings. If you seperate yourself away from everyone else by lableing yourself as an American, and then everyone else is an enemy who dares to question America, then you get caught up in a hateful ideology much like the ones you condemn which you believe exist in Muslims. It is much like Israel, when anyone crticizes them, it is seen as anti-semitic, something which ignores the actual reasons behind crticizing them.
“Frankly, I could easily opt for isolationism, but they don’t ask my advice (except when a contribution card is included, of course).”
No, don’t give me this shit. Don’t sit here and tell me they don’t ask your opinion, that they don’t care. No, they don’t ask your opinion, but you have to make your opinion be heard. Sitting on your ass in front of a computer screen and acting hopeless doesn’t solve the problems of the world, nor does it help to stop t he horrible actions the government is taking. You are complicit so long as you fail to act. Don’t cry to me that they don’t care, you are accepting their actions as legitimate. If your government won’t listen to you, you have to stand up and act, and make them listen to you, or get rid of that government (whether that means creating a new government, or no government at all) if they won’t. Take action, protest, demand that they change their ways, you can’t just say, they don’t ask your advice, for no government does, that is why you have to demand it. Look at the Burmese, their government is far more repressive, and they are risking their lives to stop the governments policies. Do it yourself.
And so yo uknow. Iran is the most US-friendly nation in the Arab world. They held vigils on 9/11, and were saddened by the attacks as well. The government passed a resolution condemning the attacks. And you still have failed to show any of us, any evidence which shows Iran is creating nukes, nor any quotes in which Iran is directly threatening to attack the United States which would make them a “threat”. Also so you know, there are Christians within Iran, it’s not completely Islamic, just the majority are muslims, there are differing religions though.
Whattheheck,
That’s good to know because it’s always better if two people at odds reason together rather than one reaching for a weapon to settle the argument regardless of the merit of their position. As for your hypothetical situation I can’t provide an absolute answer but I would do everything I could to avoid violence simply because I feel it is more harmful to myself to inflict harm on others regardless of their actions. Hard to grasp but it’s the way I feel.
Planes crash - no detonation. Yes, but radioactive materials scattered over land is not something to brush off and nukes sitting at the bottom of the ocean isn’t so good either. I expect you wouldn’t like it if an unfortunate mistake happened in your backyard. And by the way, I am not worried but I am concerned.
I do not ignore the possible threat from Iran but am not willing to sanction bombing them back to the stone age when they have not initiated hostilities. I do however see the actions of the USA as a realized threat as they have initiated hostilities with Iraq being the most recent example. The saber rattling at Iran worries me and should worry you too.
———————
Aunty,
Agreed! So please be careful with your statements and provide the appropriate disclaimers so as not to further perpetuate the notion that it is a proven fact.
I don’t know if they are or not either but am willing to extend them the benefit of the doubt until their actions prove otherwise. And even if they are and announce a withdrawal from the NPT then that is their right and I can live with it. I would expect that if they are seeking a nuclear weapon it is for a deterent purpose and not to immediately bomb Israel (which does have a couple hundred nuclear weapons and is not an NPT signatory) or America (which has thousands of nuclear weapons and is currently using nuclear weapons called depleted {strictly semantic newspeak} uranium) as suggested by fear mongers.
Anarcho,
You are making the same shorthand comparisons as those who equate opposition to illegal immigrants and immigrants in general.
Anarcho,
Sitting here
David,
If you were Iran’s president I’m sure there would be no sabers being rattled. Unfortunately that is unlikely to happen.
Many people choose to ignore Ahmadinejad’s bellicose behavior, but if I were charged with the responsibility for 330 million people I
whattheheck, do you really believe that BTW’s assumption that one of his captors was the suddenly famous Ahmadinejad is a powerful reason to attack the inhabitants of a country so far from your own? It’s incredible how you people try and justify what has no justification. First Afghanistan, then Irak and now Iran , isn’t it remarkable the way enemies are
Maria,
Did I say any such thing? I merely was pointing out that he is no angel. It is incredible how you people jump to conclusions just so you can criticize anyone in the U.S.
He is not assuming this Iranian was one of his captors he is certain. You tend to remember a person who holds you captive for months and takes his turn beating you.
It looks like you are willing to make a hero of anyone who is against the U.S. But, Chavez? Good grief
Sorry, I don’t know the meaning of “doozy”, my English, not being my native tongue, is not so good and I couldn’t find it in the dictionary but never mind, I guess it’s not a compliment, so you needn’t explain its meaning. I will not trouble you anymore with my thoughts I am not trying to make a hero of anyone, I am simply stating that it’s not mentally healthy to be preaching about the inevitability of wars against nations because you dislike their presidents or their politics.
Common people around the world have basically the same needs and feelings without exceptions, believe it or not and no one has the right to attack them for wrong doings which are not theirs and as you should know by now wars tend to destroy common people, not generals, or presidents, or big wigs.
Maria,
Sorry, I forgot that English is not your first language. Doozy (I
whattheheck, “doozy” is in this case correctly applied, as I was born in precisely 1930 and,as every other being on earth I feel I am “unique”.
Sorry to exasperate you but I have always been a pacifist, a soother, as I feel us humans, have, among many other capabilities, the insight required for the foresight to plan for the needs of others as well as the self, to use our knowledge to alleviate suffering everywhere. We are the only species that is capable of showing concern for suffering of other living things, contrary to the reptile-eat-reptile and a dog-eat-dog world. The problem is we are distracted, led about by individuals who only seek power, or money or fame and thus lose life’s main purpose which is that of developing discernment. I have no religion or political view because I don’t need anything that separates me from the rest of my fellow beings. It’s not that I find faulk
t with the inhabitants of America, but if you read the list of wars you mentioned youwill see that they were started by your country’s succesive governments and that must surely mean something.
Love.
Doozy
Whattheheck-
“You are making the same shorthand comparisons as those who equate opposition to illegal immigrants and immigrants in general.”
It’s a discriminatory nature no matter what, which ignores the peoples situations, something which I will condemn.
“All Christians”as if I were talking of ALL Muslims.
I am not.”
You speak of Muslims as if you are speaking for them all, maybe you should be more explicit, and not speak so generally if you don’t want to be understood in that way. I’m tyring to show you that just because there are radical muslim clerics out there that are speaking of holy wars and Jihads, doesn’t mean that they are getting through to Muslims, just as it doesn’t mean that since Pat Robertson is out there spewing hatred, he’s not getting through to all Christians. Obviously both are getting through to some, but notall, the reason for terrorism is these peoples situations in life, and the situation of life for others in Arab lands, which falls into an overall religious sense, but they are not acting because they are brainwashed or for religion alone.
“Sitting here “on my ass” is simply the easiest way to make my opinion heard. (Not that it is likely to change anything.)...I have often expressed my appreciation or displeasure to my representatives, I have voted in every election…”
Lobbying isn’t an effective means. I criticize you only from my own experience, I’ve gone about these ways trying to be a simple citizen who went through the ways of the system, believing in it, trying to change it. It doesn’t work. And voting is the biggest joke there is, there is no more useless of a way to “act”.
“OK, so tell me what are you doing which has more effect than just regurgitating your complaints? “
First of all, I am seeking to bring down the government, as all anarchists are doing. I seek to eliminate it, and to create a society where the needs of the people won’t rely on authority figures who don’t care. I work in solidarity with others, doing things to help in organizations such as the AnarchistBlackCross, AmnestyInternational, and others. I don’t simply sit on my ass, and type away at the computer. I have commented on this because it is an important issue which requires that the people realize the dangers if we go to war, in order to stop it, therefor, I comment to attempt to show you and the others who support this idea, the wrongs of taking such actions.
“...aren’t you the guy who claims the world (the system) isn’t providing you with happiness? Too few choices. All is stacked against you. The government should do something for you…”
The system shouldn’t exist, but if it does then it shouldn’t be making living conditions worse for the people.The system has failed everyone on freedoms, equality, as well as living conditions, read my comments to wolf to see more on this. My expectations are for the system to go away, so that the people can come together to make a better society without anyones interference.I don’t speak just for myself, I am concerned with others,not everything which I say is a problem which I am dealing with obviously.
“Perhaps I was wrong and all you do is “sit on your ass” whining about all the troubles you see.”
This isn’t about economic conditions, this is about war. This is about the fact that you are supporting something which creates death and destruction. Throughout all of your words, the only thing you have given us as reason to bomb an innocent population is the fact that you don’t like their president, who as so many of us have stated over and over again, has no power. Nor has Iran threatened the United States, and if they have, please, by all means, give us a quote. But still, to believe that they are going to pose a threat to the worlds greatest military superpower is ridiculous, and I hope you won’t fall into that trap.
wth-
War is not inevitable, and it has not always been, it is not a part of human nature. Archaelogical evidence and Anthropological evidence shows this actually. The human species lived tens of thousands of years without war, as well as without hierarchical societies, war first started emerging around 8,000 years ago with the start of agriculturist societies as well as private property. The people worked together at one time, and they were at peace with one another. Therefor, your idea that it is a part of man, is false. The wars your country is waging are based off of imperialism, not off of noble causes, and only further put more power into the hands of madmen.
I haven’t read all the comments, but apparently you are using someone who said that they were tortured by Iran’s president as evidence that we must go to war. What about the US? This country continues to torture people in Iraq, and Afghanistan, as well as on American soil. America has Guantanomo Bay. America has the program of extraordinary rendition. We cannot just go to war on the drop of a pin, this isn’t a game, there are lives at stake that just because they are Iranian, doesn’t mean they are any less valuable then American lives. There is a very strong pro-democracy movement within Iran, and attacking Iran will end that movement. Throughout all of thousands of years of wars, nothing has been gained by them that is substantial, not even WWII achieved what so many believe it did. World War I was supposed to be the war to end all wars, and it seems like we just continue to wage wars, which are supposed to be for the purpose (at least according to the politicians) of creating peace. You want to handle terrorism with war, and counterterrorism, yet, terrorism has been around for thousands of years, and those methods have been employed, and have all failed. Hell, America still has the KKK, and you think the government can stop Al Qaeda?
In this, I hope instead of responding to this comment that I have written, you will instead take the time to respond to some of the points which Maria has made which you haven’t responded to. I too would like a response to the following as Maria siad:
“It’s incredible how you people try and justify what has no justification. First Afghanistan, then Irak and now Iran , isn’t it remarkable the way enemies are ´picked? How about Saudi Arabia, where the 9/11 attaclkers came from? The people who used to kidnap, torture and disappear so many young and idealistic people in Argentina and Chile had been trained at the School of the Americas and patronized byKissinger, as it has been proved. Would that be enough merit to have your country bombed ? ”
We must look towards the root causes of the problems which we are dealing with in the world, not war. Diplomacy is something your politicians don’t employ anymore, which is perhaps the reason why you are so quick to offer war, because you have forgotten it. Check out the Iranian offer from 2003 in which they were going to hand the US government a silver platter, putting their nuclear program on the table, stopping funding of terrorist groups, helping the US in Iraq, and many other things. Your government denied it, ignoring Iran’s diplomatic efforts. Therefore it is Your governments own fault, and it has no right to go to war with Iran.
Since you like suggesting books and authors, I suggest you read Naomi Kleins Shock Doctrine: The rise of disaster capitalism, and read Hegemony or Survival by Noam Chomsky.
Maria -
Well, yes, it means that you are grossly ignorant of history and/or your leftist ideology has left you incapable of coherent thought.
WW2 was started by Germany’s attacks on Czechoslovakia and Poland and raged in Europe for two years while the United States was still locked in isolationism. The USA became directly involved when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, at which time Hitler declared war on the United States, and not the other way around.
South Korea was directly attacked by North Korea in June 1950 without warning. There were no American units in South Korea at the time.
South Vietnam was attacked by North Vietnam.
The Gulf War in 1991 was a United Nations effort resulting from Saddam’s attack on a United Nations member.
War with radical Muslims had raged for years with no response by the USA. Iran committed an act of war by attacking the US Embassy in Teheran. Hisb’allah killed American and French peace-keeping forces in Lebanon. There were thousands of individual attacks for a period of years, mostly against Muslims in North Africa and the Middle East, before the USA became seriously involved on 09/11.
Your tired old ideology has been thoroughly analyzed and disposed of decades ago. You are still following Orwell’s dictums:
“War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.”
The United States is starting wars when it defends itself, its Allies, or innocent bystanders, such as South Korea in 1950 or Kuwait in 1991, according to you and Orwell.
Anarcho pretends that his situation is “wage slavery”, and that is no different than institutional slavery.
Both of you are exhibiting ignorance and pretending it is strength. No wonder you leftists always manage to screw up free elections in free countries.
Don’t stop trying though, you do have some slight entertainment value that I quite enjoy.
Maria,
“…. I have no religion or political view because I don’t need anything that separates me from the rest of my fellow beings.”
My religious views have evolved from a Christian (relatively conservative, to quite liberal, to agnostic) over the past 30 years or so. It was an uncomfortable struggle and not a quick decision. I suppose the same could apply to my political views.
While you see each of those topics as divisive, I’d suggest they could also unite, which in my case they do.
“…if you read the list of wars you mentioned you will see that they were started by your country’s successive governments and that must surely mean something.”
This is an over simplification, in my opinion. History, particularly military history is of strong interest to me. I won’t go into complex and a lengthy discussion, but only say, political differences between nations certainly contributed to the ultimate conflicts, which may have been resolved by other methods — only if all people were pacifists, like you.
As you stated, all beings are unique — but many are uniquely selfish, greedy, sadistic and a whole list of other disgusting and dangerous characteristics may apply. It only takes a few on each side to act on these human failings to pull thousands of others into the conflict.
Anarcho,
“You speak of Muslims as if you are speaking for them all, maybe you should be more explicit, and not speak so generally if you don’t want to be understood in that way.”
I have called them “wacko religious zealots” and “radical Muslims” — if I omitted an adjective it was not intentional. There is a Muslim family living two doors away from me who are very nice people.
As 9/11 the 1993 attack on WTC and attacks in other countries have shown it only takes a few to do a lot of damage. What I hear of Ahmadinejad and hear him say is encouraging such action at the very least.
Stop and think about what you are doing —
You say you want to bring down the government (an organization) and do this while working with “Anarchist Black Cross and Amnesty International and others” (more organizations).
All organizations in the history of the world have consisted of people with the same range of human characteristics, which make the organizations vulnerable to the same kinds of corruption.
You expect the system to “go away” so that people (the weak link) can “make a better society without anyone’s interference.”
In other words we will all play nice.
AND — you plan to do this without applying force (war). You think Ahmadinejad has NO POWER. What makes you think you do?
Do you realize you have a messiah complex? You are proposing heaven on earth!
re: the article’s title
Just for a bit of perspective here are some numbers based on the recent Ken Burns’ TV special THE WAR. (WW2)
Before the war the U.S. Army consisted of 175,000 men.
Total number of Americans participating before it was over was 16 million.
Total cost in dollars was $304 billion which they said would be $3 trillion in today’s dollars.
Something to bear in mind as the media and politicians ask, “Are we there yet?”
Scorp-
Don’t blindly attack others when you aren’t aware of the factual situations which have started those wars which you feel that the US was defending itself by getting involved in. The wars had much more to them then your simple history books teach you, and I would encourage you to do your own research to find the answers. All the wars which you mention are a result of US intervention and meddling in other nations, a result of US imperialism. Your right-wing ideology of defending the government fails to recognize the truth. The United States was involved in World War II before we were attacked, and openly did acts of war which made the Japanese attack a response to US aggression. The US could have taken steps before the war started to prevent it, but they didn’t. They could have stopped the fascist uprising by stopping Franco in Spain but anaThe US was supporting Britain militarily, therefore, not being a neutral party in starting up the war. The country which you are so proud of also was supportive of Hitler and the Nazi’s when they first came to power. The Vietnam war is a much more complex war then your simple right wing ideology would like to make it out to be. The war came about as a result of the US being opposed to the people rising up in the South (with support from the North) in order to overthrow the government which the US supported. The majority of the Vietnamese were behind Ho Chi Minh and the communists. The fighting in the South came forth as a result of the repressive Diemh government which the US supported. There was supposed to be a country wide election in Vietnam which would have established a government that the people voted for, the US however pressured the government in South Vietnam not to, and they did not, despite the fact that Ho Chi Minh insisted. Your government went into Vietnam to interfer with a social revolution which the people were behind. The US initiated the hostilities, there was no Gulf of Tonkin attack as propagated. The Korean war was started by the US and South Korea, not North Korea, it was the US and South Korea that initiated bombing in which the North Koreans defended themselves against.
The Gulf War? Give me a break. Your government supported Saddam and his actions against Iran, and then when his greed started inteferring with the US governments greed, then we decided to get involved. The US government supported Saddam, and put him in power. They gave him the chemical warfare, and the weapons of mass destruction, don’t give me this shit.
“War with radical Muslims had raged for years with no response by the USA. Iran committed an act of war by attacking the US Embassy in Teheran. Hisb’allah killed American and French peace-keeping forces in Lebanon. There were thousands of individual attacks for a period of years, mostly against Muslims in North Africa and the Middle East, before the USA became seriously involved on 09/11. “
All of those attacks were responses to US foreign policy and imperialism. Do your research and you will find this out.
“Your tired old ideology has been thoroughly analyzed and disposed of decades ago. You are still following Orwell’s dictums:
“War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength.””
We are living in an Orwellian world, don’t insult Maria just because you can’t accept this, I live within this land yo ucall America as well, but my perceptions of the world don’t come from authority figures who tell me how to perceive the world, they come from the facts of what is happening. You probably believe the US is doing a noble deed in Iraq. Give me a break. Do yourself a favor and free yourself.
“Anarcho pretends that his situation is “wage slavery”, and that is no different than institutional slavery.
Both of you are exhibiting ignorance and pretending it is strength.”
Apparently you don’t understand wage-slavery so I’ll leave that comment be. And the burden of proof is on you, you are the one who has to prove that we need authority and that our ideals are flawed. You so far don’t even exhibit an understanding of our beliefs.
Whattheheck-
“All beings are unique � but many are uniquely selfish, greedy, sadistic and a whole list of other disgusting and dangerous characteristics may apply.”
The reason for those characteristics are not a part of human nature though, they exist because those behaviors have been nurtured and developeed. However, as you side with authority, and the minority which oppressively rules over mankind, you ultimately side with those who choose to go about such behaviors, as it is the government that you follow which can be characterized with such behaviors.
“As 9/11 the 1993 attack on WTC and attacks in other countries have shown it only takes a few to do a lot of damage. What I hear of Ahmadinejad and hear him say is encouraging such action at the very least.”
You made a comment regarding the fact that I believe that the people can have power but Iran’s president doesn’t. I would hope by now that you would listen to me when I say he has no power within his government because of the way it is designed. The Iranian government is different than the American governments set up. Instead of stating the same things over and over again, please read: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/29/4193/
“Stop and think about what you are doing”
I have never thought more clearly in my life, thanks for your concern. I reccomend that you stop and think about who you believe, and who you follow. The ideas behind anarchism consist of careful thought being put forth into developing a society where the people can run it collectively, where all can have freedom, and equality, in which we can also limit crime, and maintain social order. It doesn’t take thought to continue to follow the current system, and believing everything that authority figures tell you, it does take thought however to realize the flaws within this system and to realize how to fix them. Anarchism is an intellectual theory, and relies on a lot of thought in order to find how a society can exist without an authority figure, and how it can keep there from being chaos and disorder as a system such as capitalism creates. Anarchism is based off of archaelogical and anthropological evidence and research, capitalism and hierarchical systems are based off of greed and addictions to power.
“All organizations in the history of the world have consisted of people with the same range of human characteristics, which make the organizations vulnerable to the same kinds of corruption. “
Organizations mean people coming together in an organized form for some purpose. Your ideas are sad, because they reflect upon this idea that the majority of mankind must be ruled over, and that there are only a few people who are an exception to the rule, such as yourself, as you believe that you and those others are more pure than everyone else. You probably hold contempt for those in prison not recognizing the fact that many in prison are political prisoners, or innocent. Nor have you done the proper research to establish the roots of crime and why it is happening. Your singling out of organizations as being “corrupt”, is largely based on the nature of the organization as well, and you have failed to show me how either organization is corrupt to this day. Regardless of your accusations, both of those organizations which I listed have been effective in their actions in many different instances, where the action of writing a senator or voting is just creating some idea in your head that you’ve done something, but those politicians which you are trying to get to act for you, in truth only care about their corporate buddies which are giving them the campaign donations. Actions which I believe in, (all of which would be easier to do if people like yourself wouldn’t rely so heavily on writing your senators as being effective) and actions which I take, are effective, and I am careful in realizing what is ineffective and what is not (one reason why I am critical of the nature of the actions which the current peace movement is taking, in which there are far more effective ways).
Your system allows for a group of people to rule over everyone else, attaining ultimate freedom, while there is high levels of inequality, and they are oppressive towards the majority of the population. They do not have to answer to anyone because the people have been brainwashed to believe that everything the government does is ultimately for freedom and democracy, and therefor it is just, and we cannot criticize it.Your government simplifies issues to a good vs evil stance at which point the people go back to a simplified state of mind that is more inclined to follow the authority figures in this society because we are propagated that they are on the side of good, and if we do not support them, then we are on the side of evil. Issues aren’t as black and white as the government would make them out to be though. You speak and say that organizations are corrupt, but you present no evidence that the organizations that I mentioned are corrupt, and if you actually look at it, the goals which they are trying to achieve are being attained which shows that their actions are being effective. I criticized your actions because they are not effective, and because you obviously have no desire to go out there and make a real difference. The society I envision doesn’t give one man ultimate freedom while suppressing another, and ultimately works better, as has been proven by tens of thousands of years without hierarchical societies or governments. It’s shown that your society which relies on hierarchical authority exists with more flaws than anything else. You fear anarchism will create crime and disorder, yet, you seem to approve of a society where there are groups of people which hold power over everyone else, and then committ genocide against others. Remember, the government which you worship stole this land from the indigenous and committed genocide against them.
“You expect the system to “go away� so that people (the weak link) can “make a better society without anyone’s interference.� “
In other words we will all play nice. “
Yes, by examining the conditions which create it so people don’t play nicely in this system, we seek to eliminate those conditions and create conditions which will ultimately be more beneficial for people to play nice. DOn’t criticize what you dont’ understand.
“Do you realize you have a messiah complex? You are proposing heaven on earth!”
I am proposing the same ideas that the forefathers of the American revolution talked about. Freedom, peace, equality, etc. I however, have an understanding that authority is not needed, and governments are all repressive. No one can know for sure how it would be, perhaps it would be heaven on earth, lets hope so, but to deny that it would work just because it seems like that, shows an unwillingness to give it a chance. Your train of thought has been tried, and it has been failed, anarchism has been tried and still succeeds to this day with societies in the world which do not rely on hierarchical authority. Jefferson called for a revolution every 10 years, this shows a mistrust of the government. Your government is supposed to be a system in which the power comes from the bottom to the top, not from top-down, it obviously is not this way, and if it truly was to become this way, then there would be no point in it, anarchism just eliminates the middle man. I encourage you to read Emma Goldman, Peter Kropotkin, Rudolf Rocker, in order to gain a better understanding of anarchism. Infoshop.org is also a valuable resource. I wish you luck in finding the truth. As I told scorp, the burden of proof is on you to prove that we need authority, and that we need war. Don’t fall into the lies of politicians and authority figures, seek your own answers. You don’t believe in anarchism because you don’t believe in mankind, as if somehow you are pure enough that you wouldn’t be subjected to these flaws, it’s just everyone else on earth that is screwed up and yo ucan’t trust. It’s a shame you hold such a negative attitude towards your fellow man.
Whattheheck-
Another valuable site on anarchist thought is at http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/index.html
I also encourage you to read Howard Zinn’s “A Peoples history of the United States”, for a real understanding of American history, one that you seem unfamiliar with.
Never underestimate the stupidity and hubris of world leaders like Bush. What better way to distract from the debacle that is Iraq than to broaden the war to Iran??? Maybe the GOP will reign him in if only for the sake of the 2008 congressional elections.
aolaw -
And maybe you Collectivists will pull your collective heads out of your collective behinds, but I doubt it.
The last time the anti-war forces made a lot of noise, they drove the electorate away from McGovern to Nixon, in a near record Electoral College defeat and popular vote defeat in presidential election history.
The MSM has been going on and on and on and on about how badly the War on Terror has been, so that no one recognizes good news when they see it:
* Afgahanistan and Iraq have had by far the fewest civilian casualties of any American War in history. The overwhelming majority of civilian deaths have been caused by suicide bombers, IEDs, and RPGs, which are of course terrorist weapons. The precisely-targeted and disciplined firepower of the Coalition has resulted in remarkably few unwarranted and unwelcome civilian deaths.
* Afgahanistan and Iraq have had by far the fewest military casualties of any American War in history. The Department of Defense estimated 5000 military casualties in Iraq when Clinton and Kerry voted for the war. The actual number is substantially less than that. (Yes, I had two tours in Vietnam. Don’t worry about that.)
* The dollar cost of the War on Terrorism as a percentage of GDP is miniscule compared to Vietnam and Korea, much less WWII or the War Between the States.
* As security improves, the Iraqi population is turning against the terrorists and turning toward life and business. More cities and neighborhoods are secure. Markets are open. The Iraqi stock markets are up.
* The USA and the Coalition are winning the War on Terrorism, and have trapped Iran in an unsustainable positon with a hostile population, an ineffective military with ineffective Russian and NoKo weapons, and an inefficient economy. Ahmadinejad thinks that a miraculous Mahdi will give the Iranian thugs a worldwide religious and technological victory. The Mullahs are about to learn differently.
While the Collectivist press and politicians prattle on, President Bush has led the most delicate, precise, and inexpensive military and diplomatic war in history, and overwhelming evidence of victory is there to be observed. Want proof? When was the last time the NYT found anything to complain about?
The Dimocrats are heavily invested on an American loss in the the War on Terror. So sad. We are going to win.
And what would that ‘win’ entail, Scorp? What would have to happen for your ‘victory’ to be declared?
Anarcho- 30 years and 3 billion people ago I would have agreed with much of your thinking. Imagine going back to an island where there were just 2 tribes. One tribe killed those they encountered not from their group, and the other didn’t. Which do you suppose were our ancestors? How do we explain to 2 and a half billion Indians and Chinese they can’t use cheap, dirty coal to build their economies as we did? That they can’t ever consume the way we do?
Of course the above would be a piece of cake compared to convincing Americans to give up their cars and big, air-conditioned houses. If it came to a vote between war and totally downgrading our conspicuous consumption, how do you think the majority would respond?
Good to see you out of your igloo, David, and back to whipping the Belligerents with your olive branch. Captain Anti-ad-hom LIVES!!
Scorp-
Good news about the war on terror? Surely you live in another world. This war on terror is on its way to becoming or has already become the second most expensive war in history. It has cost more than the Vietnam war and the Korean war, coming it at a cost of over 750 billion, not including the war in Somalia, nor including our support for nations such as Israel for their role in the so-called war on terrorism, surpassing the cost of both wars. I’m not aware of the cost of the Civil War, but I’m sure the so-called war on terrorism has surpassed it too.The cost is irrelevant though, for it is the effect that this war has had on innocent lives that don’t deserve it. This war has increased terrorism, it has created over a million deaths, it has brought terrorist recruitment levels to all time highs, played exactly into the hands of what Osama Bin Laden wanted, among other things. In Iraq, it has created a populatin with all time high poverty levels, all time low education levels (which were really high under Saddams rule), created terrorism, abductions, food and water shortages, lack of medical services because of the violence the war has created. And many other problems, I reccomend reading http://www.motherjones.com/news/featurex/2007/03/iraq_effect_1.html , this might help you to understand the effect of the war in Iraq better, as well as the general situation which you misunderstnad so easily. Another good resource is electroniciraq.net .
” * Afgahanistan and Iraq have had by far the fewest civilian casualties of any American War in history. The overwhelming majority of civilian deaths have been caused by suicide bombers, IEDs, and RPGs, which are of course terrorist weapons. The precisely-targeted and disciplined firepower of the Coalition has resulted in remarkably few unwarranted and unwelcome civilian deaths.”
Terrorist actions which have been caused by the US invasion, terrorism which has been caused by the US occupation. Aside from that, of course, I’m sure you hate to have someone call you on the facts, but this war does not have the fewest casualties of all of our wars, this is a very sloppy ignorant statement. Even if it did have the lowest casualties, there are still over a million people dead, which is far too many, regardless of how many have died in other wars compared to this one. The military is not careful to not kill civilians (perhaps you missed the recent court martial hearing of soldiers who killed innocent civilians in Iraq and planted guns on them), there are innocent people being killed everyday by the military (read: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070730/hedges ) and their deaths are either covered up by planting evidence on them, or are ignored. If the US is so careful in Iraq, then why are they using cluster bombs? While the cluster bombs haven’t killed everyone of their victims, they have torn off arms, legs, and left innocent people handicapped. Airstrikes are often carried against what we are told are “suspected terrorists”, note the word “suspected”, in other words, they don’t know who the fuck they were, but since they killed them, they must have been insurgents. The so-called war on terror is causing the deaths of millions of inncoent people, and shows a complete lack of understanding of terrorism. Only the United States is arrogant enough to think out of thousands of years of terrorism and counterterrorism, it suddenly thinks that it can succeed in using violence to end violence where others have failed. It is the root causes of terrorism that need to be realized and solved, and the root problem is the US imperialism and hegemony that is this a part of this war on terror.
“While the Collectivist press and politicians prattle on, President Bush has led the most delicate, precise, and inexpensive military and diplomatic war in history, and overwhelming evidence of victory is there to be observed. Want proof? When was the last time the NYT found anything to complain about? “
Collectivist? You really have no understanding of what that means do you? And the NYT editorial board just came out not that long ago condemning the war in Iraq and saying it is time to leave. Doesn’t matter anyways because the NYT is just the same propaganda machine as every other media outlet, putting out the same old lies to back up the government.
“The Dimocrats are heavily invested on an American loss in the the War on Terror. So sad. We are going to win.”
What are you talking about? THe democrats support this war on terrorism. They refuse to end the war in Afghanistan, and Iraq, and continue to support this war on terror. The democrats buy into the whole bullshit philosophy of supporting the troops, which means supporting the war. The Democrats dont’ do shit to end this war other than pathetic attempts, in order to make the public think that they are. They are too busy condemning ads by moveon.org to give a shit about what is happening.
I too would like to know what that win entails. Stopping terrorism? It’ll never happen. The US is losing the war anyways, because Jihadist recruitments are up, terrorist attacks are up, and they are falling right into the hands of Bin Laden. You act as if your government is serious about this war on terrorism anyways. It’s not. It wants to stop terrorism which is a threat to its empire, and capitalism. It is all gunho on supporting terrorism as seen by the CIA’s role in the bombing of Cubana flight 455, and the governments refusal to extradite Luis Pasada Carilles. Not to mention its refusal to prosecute corporations which support right-wing terrorist groups in Columbia. The Bush regime knew about the Chiquita banana corporations support of terrorist groups, and allowed it to continue.
“* As security improves, the Iraqi population is turning against the terrorists and turning toward life and business. More cities and neighborhoods are secure. Markets are open. The Iraqi stock markets are up. “
Markets being open, and an economy based off of economic shock therapy doesn’t show stability and security, it shows the real motive behind America getting into Iraq. A war waged so that we could create a system based off of Milton Friedmans ideas of disaster capitalism, ideas that are not based on benefiting the public, but benefiting corporations. We went to war for corporate globalization (as well as hegemony). It is the US which is seeking to give control of Iraq’s oil to corporations such as Exxon/Mobile and Shell, something the Iraqi people highly oppose, and the oil workers have gone on strike over many times. You may not be aware of Friedman, or he may be your hero like so many other neo-con idiots, but he’s the same great guy who was nice enough to help out the Chileans by continuing to be an adviser to the military dictatorship of Pinochet (note: this is sarcasm). I suggest you read Naomi Klein’s “The Shock Doctrine: The rise of disaster capitalism” for more analysis of Friedman’s failed ideas, as well as the system which we are establishing in Iraq.
As far as the people fighting back against terrorism. The people are fighting against Al Qaeda becuase they have grown sick of Al Qaeda’s attacks on civilian neighborhoods, do not get the impression from this that Iraqi’s do not support insurgent groups that attack coalition forces, recent polls have shown that the majority do, and if you know anything about the situation in Iraq at all, you know that the majority of the insurgents are indeed Iraqi’s who have grown pissed off with the occupation and taken up arms to end the US occupation (just as in Vietnam, when you and the other assholes proudly went to go serve yoru time in a battle which originated because of a regimes repressive nature, and the people in South Vietnam rising up to overthrow it with support from the Communists in the North, but you wouldn’t know anything about t hat, now would you? you just went to be an obedient tool). This has nothing to do with a success of occupation forces, and while propagated to be a result of the so-called troop surge, Iraqi’s started doing this on their own before the surge, and without the help of occupation forces. The US just came later in the game and gave them arms to help them, but if you’re stupid enough to think that that is a sign of their love for American occupation of their country, and willingness to accept what we want for their country instead of what they want, then you are a fool
And the anti-war forces were the people who ended the war in Vietnam, as well as other wars of aggression. Something which you probably have no appreciation for, despite the fact that it was their actions that probably saved your life. The peace movement now is pathetic because it isn’t going about the right ways to end the war, and is instead too busy trying to cater and support the troops, feeling sorry for them-when they should be supporting the Iraqi resistance if they are going to take sides in an armed conflict-and never speak the words of revolution.
Recursive Prophet, good to see you too. Not many leaves or olives left on the branch but I persevere.
RP -
Why, it might look something like this:
In fact, this is the law of the United States. The quotes are from the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, voted on by 100% of the United States Senate (by acclamation) and about 90% of the Congressmen, including Dennis Kucinich. And signed by President Clinton.
You are obviously a little shaky on your history, so you might also find it worthwhile to review why your Senators and Representatives voted for this:
Any more questions?
scorp-
Those were some of the goals which were defined for Iraq, as far as the democracy thing, it was defined as a goal following the fact that we had not found Weapons of Mass Destruction, and the public was told before the invasion that this was not about “country building”, yes, they contradicted their own words at many times, but individuals within the regime such as Cheney, clearly siad that. However, you are choosing to pick “goals” for Iraq, which exist solely as propaganda, because democracy and an ultimately free market society (which they want) are incompatable with each other. However, the “goals” which you define for Iraq, are not “goals” which are for this “war on terror”, which is supposed to serve the purpose (in the speeches to Americans, of course), of stopping terrorism, and mainly, stopping Al Qaeda, a clearly defined “goal”, which obviously failed miserably, as Al Qaeda is stronger than ever, Jihadist recruitments are at all times highs, Jihadist terrorist attacks are at all time highs, and there is a general sympathy with Jihadism with Arabs in general more so, all of which directly contradict the whole purpose of this stupid “war on terrorism” which really is just a war based on State terrorism, and YOUR State’s terrorism at it. While the so-called war on terror still goes on, the US is clearly losing the war-unless of course you want to live in the lala land of fox news.
It’s interesting to me how you bring up that select history. You fail to mention that Iraq’s invasion of Iran, was supported by the US (no not officially of course), and when Iraq became on the defensive in mid-1982, it was then that the US decided to back Iraq, and build Saddam up militarily. It took however, the Reagan regime successfully removing Iraq from the US state sponsors of terrorism list, in order for Saddam to acquire the weapons which he used on the people, as well as the vehicles which were used to deliver the attacks-it was that list which had been serving as a trade barrier with Iraq, that your government removed him from, so that he could gain the weapons which he wanted. It was in fact coal who killed the prevention of Genocide Act of 1988 as well, which had bipartisan support after Hallubja All of those genocidal accounts that you speak of, before the invasion of Kuwait, were done with US support. It was the US which sold Saddam chemical warfare, and weapons of mass destructions, as well as the Apache helicopters which he used to committ the genocide. All the chemicals were given to him by the Reagan regime, when Saddam had already committed genocide before. The genocide committed after the Gulf War is largely the responsibility of the US government, as Bush Sr. called on the Iraqi people to rise up and overthrow their government. At which point there was a popular uprising, which obviously freaked the US out because it was indeed a popular uprising, and would have meant a democratic state. At that point, the Shiites and Kurds were willing to overthrow the government, and would have done so if they had the arms to do it with, however, it was the marines on the border who were told to stand down, when the Iraqi’s asked for the confiscated weapons of Saddams, so that they could fight (something which the US called upon them to do). Your government turned them down, because it wasn’t the uprising that it wanted, and as a result, Saddam killed those people. I’m curious as to why you leave out that part of the equation as well. Also, what about the effect of the US sanctions which killed millions of Iraqi’s? What about the weekly bombings the US had been carrying out between the ending of the first gulf war and the start up of the invasion of Iraq? You are one-sided in your view of history. Saddam committed those horrible actions, but he did so with the complicity of the US government.
And shakey on history? The senators and representatives voted for this war because they were told Iraq was a threat, and had nuclear weapons which it had planned on using against the United States. With regards to his previous actions, tehy were discussed only towards usage of beating the drums for war to make Saddam look evil, and the US government look good, when in reality, both are evil. It was the result of the Senators and Representatives being too stupid to actually examine the facts, and too careless to as well. There was dissent at the time, which should have been listened to, but they voted for this war because they fell into Bush’s propaganda, and because they themselves were in favor of it for gaining control of Iraq’s resources, and opening up a free market economy, among other things which would value US corporations. We were also told that Saddam had a role in 9/11, therefor that got people to comply to going to war, but that obviously was a lie. We did not go into Iraq for his past crimes, in fact, the Bush regime was terrified when Saddam was on trial for his crimes which is why they established a special tribunal for trying him, as well as the others who committed the crimes. The Us finances the tribunal, it trained the judges, it trained the judges, the lawers, the prosecutors. There was also a special provision in the statute of the tribunal that says that only Iraqi citizens or Iraqi residents can be accused. In other words, foreigners cannot be brought before the tribunal (US officials who are complicit).
I have a question, when are you going to stop looking at the war crimes of other countries leaders alone, and recognize it when your own government committs war crimes? You are quick to condemn other nations “leaders” but when it comes to your own, those who you follow so devoutely, you justify everything they do, even if it is a war crime. Your government is violating the geneva convention, and international law by torturing people. It is targeting civilians, another war crime. It has used depleted uranium bombs, it has used cluster bombs. When are you going to condemn these acts? Your government started an illegal war. When are you going to condemn that? Those are my questions, because i don’t feel that you have a right to condemn other “leaders” for crimes which your “leaders” have themselves committed. You show no impartiality. Both Saddams goverenment, and the US government are guilty of war crimes, and both have acted in despicable manners. If you want to condemn Saddam for committing these crimes, condemn your government for its complicity in them. Stop being such a fucking patriot and open your eyes, blind faith has never accomplished anything decent in this world.
You are a hoot, Scorp. So how long does our ‘support’ continue is the question. When can we say our ‘mission is truly accomplished’ and bring the troops home? What will the situation in Iraq have to look like for this to happen? This is the question you neocons never answer, along with where the money and fresh troops will come from to continue this insanity. I guess ultimately it’s up the the Chinese and Japanese, as they carry most of our debt. What if they stop carrying us?
RP -
Ummm, since all I did was quote United States Law, and point out that many Dimocrats embraced that law and the reasons we went to war, I’m a hoot? Clinton is not a hoot? All the United States senators in 1998 are not a hoot, but I am?
You are not a prophet, you can’t even tell what the past was, much less what the future will be.
My horseback estimate is that al-Qa’eda in Iraq will continue to lose local support, the Sunnis and Shi’ites will come to an armed truce, business and civil life will continue to revive in Iraq, and the United States will maintain a discreet presence in Iraq for the next forty years. Why not, the War against the Terrorists has little dollar cost and negligible impact on our economy, and we can remove troops from Europe to garrison Iraq.
You seem to be concerned about “debt” and the Chinese and Japanese. Whatever are you thinking of?
How about the value of the dollar? As our economy runs on oil, you don’t think this is going to be a problem? Just keep throwing money into the dark pit of Iraq and there’ll be no consequences? Think we’re getting more popular over there Scorp? Who’s going to protect this small force we leave behind? The Iraqi military?
Those others you mention ARE ALSO a hoot, Scorp, but the way you go on you’d fit right in. Ever consider running for office? The Hooters Party?
Oh, and business and civil life will CONTINUE in Iraq? When did it START? I must have missed it.
Let’s leave Iraq now. It is a multibillion dollar boondoggle and a pointless bloodbath to boot.
Hi Maria, thanks for your contribution.
You say you are asking yourself why our country is now beeing considered “the” rogue state of the world. What happened, why did we go so wrong?
You might want to consider that the American people is the only people on earth who eats genetically alterered foods. There is enough proof about how poisonous the stuff may be but only in America most consumers are kept totally ignorant about it.
There is a research that shows that rats fed genetically altered food became so very agressive that they attacked the other rats and then proceeded to kill one another for no reason whatsoever. Meanwhile, the control group showed no such behavior and remains peaceful.
Look for instance at http://www.seedsofdeception.com/ and then tell me if there might be a connection between our current diet and our current folly.
Of course, you’d have to do your own reading, as we can’t count on our bribed politicians and servile media to keep us informed about what their main sponsors are doing.
But, but, but… we ARE going to bomb Iran. That’s a given. If you have any doubts whatsoever that they’re not going to pull it off again…. read this:
FIVE EASY PIECES TO IRAN:
CLICK HERE
http://tvnewslies.org/blog/?p=658
Skipper7, you have just made my point in your short comment. You say “We ARE going to bomb Iran”. Are you going to do it personally? Do you agree with it? Since you say “we are” I have to assume that you line up behind whatever the people in power in your country decide to do, and that ‘s exactly part of the problem, “they are going to pull it off again” because pople keep a silent passivity and those who don’t are immediately called names: “neomarxists”, “lefties”, “commies”, etc. etc. as a way to discredit whatever they have to say. From the distance it’s quite difficult to know what portion of the american population is pro or against these wars, so no wonder you are beoming highly unpopular around he world.
where to begin, take up ...IRAN + Nukes = demise of ISRAEL.
ISRAEL who unlike Iran has invaded other countries, disregarding international law, have USA nuclear weapons (hundreds of them)
India has them, Korea (both) have them, and lest we forget our stable playmates in (drum roll) Pakistan and that whole proliferation dealer Kahn (sp?) and they unlike Israel and the Arab world (Syria, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Lebanon, et al) enjoy a peaceful coexistaence w/India ...
How narrow these thought processes you enjoy ... [you must, been looking at your chatter for soem two months now]
this debate, if it is one, sould include for the record ....
ISRAEL can and does imprison/attack/starve/torture/...oh let’s just stay w/Palestine and those who want merely their own country, to live, not in oppresive fear, how about their energy supplies, seems like they could use a nuclear reactor ...
So you think IRAN has intentions of attacking everyone, hell Saddam did and look what happened to him .... somehow his intentions to move his country’s currency and align it with the EURO gets little, if any mention ........ Barradei and his factual staff again say CHENEY et al are up to their own tricks .... what the hell is another blank check drawn on a bankrupt account matter, these contractor/presidential supporters
[POSSE is a better fit than the present ‘Pioneers’, don’t ya think] still don’t have to file tax returns ....and they won’t doesn’t matter what the IRS says ......
So I do appreciate reading your ongoing discussion, just wondering when/where does reality enter ????? re: it’s OK when those countries/regimes we’re alligned with [who don’t have the OIL reserves ISRAEL, Britain, on & on] can attack, invade, and occupy, fence in/out, and profess IRAN and other ‘non alligned’ are secretly plotting and planning to eliminate what behaviors/oppresion/hypocrisy ?????exactly
WAR CRIMINALS
PLAY BY THEIR OWN SET OF RULES, THE TRUTH DOESN’T FACTOR IN, NO ROOM I GUESS ...... and as long as the fear is rampant the resistance remains choked back ....
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