Another War We Can’t Afford

No one wants war. But the idea of a nuclear armed medieval state is very very scary.

Sanctions are a good idea, particularly if they target all advanced technology. We should avoid letting Iran acquire any technology that was not available in 1950 or so, unless it is clear that such technology cannot be abused by the crazies who rule that country. Of course, no modern weapons should be allowed in as well. This is not only for our own good, but for the good of Iran as well. They simply are not ready for such disruptive technologies and clearly are inclined to wreck havoc with the same, if they obtain it.

How sad it must be to grow up in such primitive conditions, when wealth and knowledge are both available to them. I pity those who are unlucky enough to be born there. But perhaps they will come out of savagery and ignorance and eventually find they way into the modern world (rather than attempting to destroy same). One can only hope, for their sakes and ours.

What about the paramilitarism and attempt to regain empire by the radical Muslims? Did he forget about that already?

Due to the over-extention of our military in the Iraq escapade we are in bad shape to deal with another wacko regime whether Iran, Korea, or ?

Both the left and the right need to stop the medial civil war and establish a coherent military policy which includes the other free world leaders who have also been attacked.

With a solid front we could handle this with strategies economic planning backed by a global miltary threat rather than resorting to unilateral force.

For anyone to even believe that we have the right to attack or go to war with Iran if we could afford such actions, and our military wasn’t overexpanded is ridiculous. We have NO right to attack Iran, regardless of how ridiculous the regime may be, and regardless of what the US government would like us to believe regarding the Iranian governments intentions. Even the idea that we should attack Iran is ridiculous given the fact that even if Iran is attempting to create nuclear weapons (which there is no proof that they are, and obviously according to the weapons inspectors, they don’t have the uranium enriched at high enough levels to be doing so) they still do NOT have a nuclear weapon. Should we believe now that the US has a right to attack other nations based off of their governments intentions to do something alone? Are we going to enforce thought crimes for other nations? Why is it that American’s are still foolish enough to believe that this government has a right to police the world, when the government itself is in violation of international law, is guilty of war crimes, and continues hegemony?  The only reason we will go to war with Iran is to expand the US empire, and it’s time that the liberals wake up and realize that this is the very purpose of all US actions abroad. The govenrment has no clear intention to make sure the world is safe, otherwise it wouldn’t be intending to start another arms race with Russia by putting a missile defence system in the Czech republic and Poland.
The US has more nuclear weapons than any one else in the world, it alone spends more on military than the rest of the world combined. It is supporting Israel as it continues to occupy Palestine, and enforce aggressive foreign policy throughout the Middle East, inevitably causing terrorism. The US recently announced it is going to military buildup everyone around Iran by arming them to the teeth, and what do we expect Iran to do exactly? If they were creating nuclear weapons, would they not be justified? It would be the only thing to deter a US attack on them. Then there is the idea that we need to attack Iran because they are supporting Shiite militias which are responsibl for attacks on US troops, yet, there still is no proof that Iran has directly given them weapons, and in fact Petraeus himself has said that they have no proof to support this, as well as many other US generals.
It is time for us to stand up and stop the US government, and to stop this kind of hostility which is only getting worse. We as human beings must not accept the actions of this government as being legitimate just because we live in America. Has no one learned anything from Iraq? For how long can we blind ourselves, before we realize the truth, and finally put a stop to the US empire building. Military action obviously is not the answer to our problems, bombing an innocent population is not goign to solve anything, we must look at dismantling militarism instead of encouraging it. (this comment was mainly regarding the two previous comments)

Quoting anarcho “Why is it that Americans are foolish enough to believe that this government has the right to police the world.....”
That’s the big question millions of us around the world are asking ourselves each night, the cause of most of our nightmares.  The options are not too many: either because they are too self-centered and really believe they are the “super race” or they are too blind to see the consequences of USA’s foreign policy in the last decades, which has only brought about pain, suffering and death to many countries, always based on lies, half-truths and arrogance.
So, calling other governments “wacko” is lacking any sense of perspective and self-criticism. The very moment your president started on his imperial campaign against other countries based on absolute lies, I came up with a definition of “a blindman poking about with a long stick on ant-hives”. I wish I had been mistaken but everyday news confirm my suspicion.

Maria,

Perhaps you would rather Iran or Korea were the dominant military in the world — well, you are entitled to your opinion. History shows us that someone always fills that role.

I notice you chose to ignore my suggestion, “…establish a coherent military policy which includes the other free world leaders who have also been attacked.”

And… “With a solid front we could handle this with strategies (like) economic planning backed by a global military threat rather than resorting to unilateral force.”

Someone had better take on the policeman job and I would prefer it be a federation of nations. The U.N. has proven lax and corrupt and we need to seek others. Without the threat and strength to back up any warnings to rogue nations or “wacko” religious zealots, the world would indeed be run by anarchists. I guess you would prefer that?

Well, if so, the next time there is a natural disaster — call an anarchist for help.

Wolf, America is becoming a fascist state. That is scarier than specious allegations of Iran having or seeking to aquire nuclear weapons. And what about the crazies that rule your country who are wreaking havoc in Iraq with nuclear wepaons in the form of depleted uranium weapons? And the same crazies are threatening Iran with nuclear attack. Incredible hubris and a fine example of the pot calling the kettle black.

How sad it is that your self perception of cultural superiority seems to prevent you from appreciating the wealth and knowledge of other countries and cultures. I pity you and those like you who are unfortunate enough to be born in America and conditioned to believe that America is a beacon of freedom for the rest of the world to emulate. Very sad.

For your own good and that of your country and the good of others around the world I urge you to speak out against all aggressive wars.

Whattheheck, what about America’s attempt to gain empire ? Are you really that blind that you can’t see that the enemy is us (you)? What about the radicals in your own government who seem to be hell bent on attacking Iran just as Iraq was attacked without legitimate cause?

Why is your solution dependant on a military threat ? Isn’t there a better way?

As for the article ...

“Another War We Can’t Afford”

That’s for sure. Economically and more importantly morally. Unless being both economically and morally bankrupt is the intention.

Army Gen. David Petraeus - “you can’t win in Iraq … just in Iraq.” A victory in Iraq necessitates “greater involvement with respect to some of the neighboring countries, some of the source countries for foreign fighters. … And it certainly involves Iran.”

Senator Joe Lieberman - “the Iranian government by its actions has declared war on us,”

President Bush - accusing Iran of putting the Middle East “under the shadow of a nuclear holocaust”

... war mongers and war criminals ... one and all.

Meanwhile, a story that received more attention, but without consideration for its full implications, was that six nuclear warheads on cruise missiles were carried on a B-52 bomber from North Dakota’s Minot Air Force Base to Barksdale Air Force Base in Louisiana on August 30. This was labeled a mistake—that the crew unknowingly carried nuclear weapons. But somebody did. Nuclear weapons are only loaded for the purpose of transport or if on alert. The other point worth noting is that Barksdale is a primary staging point for Middle East operations.

Six nuclear warheads? I read elsewhere that it was five. Is one missing? What the hell is going on?

David,

Love your enemies? Turn the other cheek?

Would you do away with the RCMP?

Check out history — without enforcement civilization would disintegrate. Who, how and to what degree is debatable, but not IF.
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Nuke “mistake” — What’s the big deal? For decades during the cold war there were B-52s with nukles flying 24/7. Until armed, which requires deliberate action, they are not a problem.

What makes you or anyone think the Russians and several others (including us) don’t still have missiles at the ready.

Do you think on 9/11 those guys flying into buildings wouldn’t have loved to have been able to have nukes?

You reason with them if you like. I prefer to have weapons handy.

David -

The US is (obviously) not a perfect country. As are all countries, it is composed of imperfect men. I see little danger of it becoming fascist, that is simply rhetoric with little substance (however, Saudi Arabia, Korea, China, Russia, etc etc while not being “fascist” per se have human rights records consistent with same, so there is lots of room to point fingers).

Iran has made it clear they want nukes. Some here believe it is their *right* to acquire them as well. I suggest that we - the West - should not help them in this pursuit, which seems to me very likely to cause tragedy beyond any we have yet seen in modern times. We have already given them technology far beyond their ability to control, we should limit the damages now before it is too late.

All wars are aggressive. All wars are evil. All wars kill innocents of all stripes. The trick then is to choose the least of two (or more) evils, rather than simply picking good over evil. This has always been a difficult choice, but it is the nature of the world we live in.

BTW my definition of “cultural superiority” extends to Canada and the West in general. Places where people are (mostly) free, as opposed to the vast majority of other places (the list above, all of Africa, almost all of the middle east, etc). Those of us lucky enough to live in freedom should be very happy to be so fortunate!

Wolf - Iran has not made it clear as you state. The President of Iran has made it clear that he wants nuclear weapons, but if you had any understanding of the way Iran operates, you would see that all foreign policy matters are in the hands of Ayatollah Khamenei. Instead of listening to what the nutjob president says, you can read what he says instead, and everytime the president comes out and says something ridiculous like they want to nuke Israel or wipe Israel off the map, Khamenei has come out soon after and said, “no, we aren’t going to do this”. Aside from that Khamanei has ordered a fatwa (religious prohibition) against nuclear weapons. Aside from that, if you actually would have read this article through, you would read:
“All along, Iran has maintained that the purpose of the program is to generate electricity for civilian use. And the U.N.’s nuclear watchdog organization, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), reported on August 30 “significant” cooperation from Iran over its nuclear program and said that the uranium enrichment processes have decreased and are producing “well below the expected quantity for a facility of this design.” Additionally, according to the IAEA, Iran has promised to answer most of the agency’s questions by November. The IAEA further commended Iran for coming to agreement on a new work plan and timeline set forth by the IAEA.”
And war is never necessary. Perhaps if you would pull your head out of the sand, you would see that all of the wars the US goes into are just for the sake of empire building. If Iran was creating nuclear weapons, which they obviously are not, they would be doing so to protect themselves as the US continues to build up their neighbors which are their enemies (Israel mainly) to the teeth.
“ Those of us lucky enough to live in freedom should be very happy to be so fortunate!”
Good god, I’m sorry, but where the hell have you been living? Freedom? HA! What a joke. We are oppressed, not free. If you can’t realize that then no wonder you think we should go to war.

Wolf, type “fascism america” into your favorite search engine and do some reading.

Here are a couple examples:

14 points of fascism

The Dawning of Fascism in America

It’s a reality and brushing it off as simply rhetoric with little substance is cowardly or ignorant.

You say Iran has made it clear they want nukes . Assuming you mean nuclear weapons ... do you have any evidence for this assertion?

Currently Iran insists they are pursuing peaceful nuclear technology and the IAEA backs this up. Any allegations from the United States about Iran attempting to develop nuclear are simply that ... allegations and probably lies. Lies very similar to the ones that were part of the propaganda runup to the invasion of Iraq.

The invasion of Iraq was an illegal war and the instigators are war criminals. Any attack on Iran is more of the same.

Please spare me your lesser evil justification for war. It is superficialy pleasing but lacks real merit.

whattheheck-
I realize this wasn’t directed towards me, but I’m responding anyways.
“Perhaps you would rather Iran or Korea were the dominant military in the world — well, you are entitled to your opinion. History shows us that someone always fills that role.”
The dominant military in the world? Cmon. The US is the most powerful military in the world, we spend more on militarism than all other nations combined, and you’re going to tlel me that one of those countries which isn’t even close to our military stance is going to fill that role? Give me a break. Neither nation poses a serious threat to the nation which spends that much on militarism, the nation which is the most heavily armed, and the nation with the most nuclear weapons.

“I notice you chose to ignore my suggestion, “…establish a coherent military policy which includes the other free world leaders who have also been attacked.””
No military policy is needed, and the “free world” doesn’t exist. It’s time you people raelized this. Every part of the “free world” is oppressed, we are not free in America, even if your democrats are elected, we will not have true freedom. True freedom cannot exist with governments, for all governments are oppressive. Freedom exists for our corporations to go overseas and exploit third world nations, not for us as citizens, surely Bush’s reign has by now proven that as we step more and more into an Orwellian world.

“Without the threat and strength to back up any warnings to rogue nations or “wacko” religious zealots, the world would indeed be run by anarchists...if so, the next time there is a natural disaster — call an anarchist for help.”

You act as if anarchists seek to destabilize the world. This shows that you lack an understanding of what anarchy represents, maybe instead of relying on the popular idea that we are bomb throwing chaos oriented individuals, you should look into the actual ideals behind anarchism. Read individuals such as Emma Goldman, Peter Kropotkin, Rudolf Rocker, don’t rely on what the mainstream depicts anarchy to be. It is a philosophy which believes in peace, freedom, and equality, maybe oppression sounds better to you since you seeem to enjoy the current system, but to act as if anarchy is this horrible thing shows a lack of real understanding. Next time there is a natural disaster, who are you going to call, your government? The same govenrment which failed you on Katrina? The same government which failed you on 9/11? The same government which tells you that any day there could be a terrorist attack and that they are to inept and foolish to stop it? The same government that continues to do nothing about global warming, the most serious threat that exists in this world? Anarchism is about people coming together collectively to do things, and eliminates hierarchical authority, seeking to create a world without governments which continue to oppress the people. And your comment about religious zealots and rogue nations, and this would somehow make the world ran by anarchists? How do you figure upon this? We are opposed to all forms of hierarchical authority, and to say that we would somehow “rule” the world, is a paradox, for we do not believe in “ruling” as in, anarchists ruling over everyone else, we believe in a world in which there is no “rule” as it is, because no one has more power than the other, for us to rule over anyone would contradict what we believe, therefor not making us anarchists. And anarchism is a legitimate political belief, just as socialism, and communism are, just that we recognize that the people don’t need a state. The world has been ran without hierarchical authory before, and it can be ran so again (maybe you should research Spain during the Spanish civil war, and see that it was anarchy, but there wasn’t chaos, and it was run much better than yoru capitalist societies are).

Does anyone here really believe that Iran (or North Korea) really want to build nuclear power plants to generate electricity? Their agendas are not hidden and are stated clearly. If they really want power, we should help them generate it via solar cells. . .

David - the US is obviously not heading toward fascism. In fact, if we use the “14 points” misapproach to defining same, we were more fascist in the past then we are now (does anyone think the US is **more** sexist today than previous eras? Really? How about the “stolen” election of 1960? The brutal justice of the wild west? Etc. Please tell me you are merely joking, i get it! Funny!)

In any case, i do not advocate the invasion of Iran. Merely that we stop “helping” them advance with technology beyond their knowledge and wisdom.

Sorry to cause your brain to boggle with the idea that the choices are not between white and black, but rather shades of grey. It is a confusing world we live in, but perhaps you have distilled it down to something simple and comfortable for yourself.

anarcho-liberation - oppressed? In the US? You really need to get out more!

Afford another war?  Hell, too many Americans can’t afford to pay their house note much less finance another bonus for Haliburton and Black Water execs.  bush should be more worried about so many Americans not being able to afford to go to the doctor or dentist, or the fact that the U S has a negative savings rate, that credit card debt has rendered people making as much as six figure incomes virtual indentured servants.  bush ought to be more concerned that the dollar is on its way to not being worth much more than the Mexican peso and that the airports are so messed up it takes a whole day to go anywhere even if you’re only in the air a couple hours.  Making sure more than half of the interstate bridges aren’t potential death traps should be a higher priority than whether Iran can nuke Israel.  Sorry, I’m one of those selfish ass Americans tired of paying for wars that aren’t being fought for my benefit.

“people making as much as six figure incomes virtual indentured servants.”

Talk about being irresponsible. Surely you don’t blame this on Bush or anyone other than those who so badly mismanage their incomes?

The trick to not being a wage slave is simple. Save a minimum of 10% of your income, preferably 20%. Invest in a broad based mutual fund (401K or IRA are optimal) and wait a few decades. Then decide what to do with the rest of your life.

As a bonus - find a job you like and work can be fulfilling and even enjoyable.

We live our lives by the choices we make. That is freedom. Life is good.

Wolf-perhaps a definition of fascism would help you.” Fascism is a political regime that is characterized by a high degree of concentration of power in the state, in one political party or in one person, accompanied by a messianic and belligerent form of nationalism, by the usurpation of legislative and judicial prerogative by the executive branch of the government, by the suppression of individual freedoms at home, by the worshipping of national symbols such as flags, and by a rise of militarism and the pursuit of military expansions abroad, often so as to avenge some perceived humiliation.”
Are you naive enough to believe that we aren’t already essentially a fascist state? We certainly are not a democratic state, the Iraq war of all things has proven that.
And yes, oppressed. If you want to call your oppression “freedom” then you can go ahead and deny what is right in front of your eyes. You need to get out more.  The only freedom that exists is the freedom that your masters have convinced you exists, you haven’t freedom. You are subject to laws, and restrictions. Unless you’ve been living under a rock, you should realize that we obviously don’t have the rights and freedom we are thought to. To an extent yes, we have freedom, but can you call it freedom if it only exists with permission from the State? Even the rights given to you by the constitution are now suddenly becoming more and more absent. The freedom to peacefully assemble-at protests they have police shooting people with rubber bullets, shooting tear gas into the crowds, arresting activists, and beating activists. As long as you choose to obey the system, you are not free. The very exercise of hierarchical authority is not freedom. As Thoreau pointed out:

“Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves.”

The rest of my response to your continuing ideas about iran bcan be found in the post after this.

Wolf-
“Does anyone here really believe...(they are) building nuclear power plants to generate electricity? Their agendas are not hidden and are stated clearly. If they really want power, we should help them generate it via solar cells. . .”
They’re agendas aren’t hidden? Give me a quote that they’ve said they are creating nukes. You’re basically just giving the same lines as the Bush regime. You make assertions which have no facts or evidence to support them, and stand against the amounting evidence which points the opposite. War with Iran isn’t about a “threat”, it is about hegemony, thus the reason why they go back and forth on their assertions just like they did with Iraq, never presenting a valid argument, just asserting that Iran is a threat because they are either funding Shiite militias in Iraq, or building nukes, or is supporting Al Qaeda, and anyone who challenges them is wrong. You probably believed their Iraq lines as well, but those turned out to be dead wrong now didn’t they?
What else do you want to assert? Maybe Bolivia is also supporting Al Qaeda, after all, your “leaders” want to go to war with them too. IF you want to continue living in Fox News land, then everything is great in America, and the rest of the world is a threat to us. In the real world however, things exist differently.
Ignoring facts though. Lets examine the impact a war would have.  Even if Iran acquires a nuke, do you honestly think they are a serious threat? If they were to attack Israel or the US it would be suicidal (neither of which Khamenie will back). Putting aside the costs, and what Iran is doing, do you not realize what the effect would be? It would first of all further destabilize Iraq, and Afghanistan. The Iraq effect increased terrorist attacks over 600% and helped Jihadist ideology and terrorist groups. The Iraq effect would seem minor compared to the Iran effect though. It would only help terrorist groups, and you can bet that this is the exact move that Bin Laden is wanting. It could very likely also create World War III, with countries such as Russia, and central Asian nations conducting war games last spring in preperation for US strikes, as well as many other nations which are saying they will not tolerate a US strike. Do you propose we take the risk of starting such a huge war, just because Iran might be developing nuclear weapons (should we take this risk based off of a thought crime if you will, Iran’s intention to build nuclear weapons?). Whatever threat that would exist if Iran does indeed create nuclear weapons, would not outweigh the threats posed to the world if we went to war with them. Hezbollah would surely unleash terrorist attacks upon us, and the disasterous consequences of such a war should be seriously examined, before we just jump into going to war. This isn’t the game of Risk, nor is it a game of chess, there are much larger consequences which could come forth out of attacking them, then you realize. Even if you feel Iran is creating a nuclear weapon, examine what the consequences would be should we take military action against them.

anarcho: last time I visited my country, Argentina, there was a family gathering. The younger generation, which had been in their early twenties when I left surrounded me and were eager to know what I was. My reply that I was ahuman being wasn’t satisfactory enough, in these time where everyone is supposed to have a label, so I had to add: I am an anarchist. Smiles froze, and when I intended to explain what that means the elders of the family tried to deviate conversation so that their children wouldn’t be contaminated by my outrageous ideas. It seems for some obscure reason I have never been able to understand, most people need to have some form of power over them, be it political or religious as a way to feel safer. Life isn’t safe, nothing is certain, only lack of prejudice, compassion to all and good will to work together to make a better world can make the difference but first you have to overcome fear, greed and selfishness. Thank you for replying to whattheheck on my behalf. I will end by saying that if a natural disaster ocurred I wouldn’t dream of calling anybody, I would do my best to do in my modest measure whatever I could to help and, who knows, maybe some other anarchist would come along without being called.

Maria:
I am familiar with the response that you received from your family, I too have experienced that response from family as well as friends. It was seen as just a silly belief to them at first, and then when they realized that it was something I had actually thought about, and read upon, and believed seriously, then it was that hiding my ideas so others aren’t “contaminated” as you put it. America seems to be the most obedient and reliant upon authority of everywhere else, which is ironic considering the very people who found it often spoke of dissent and rebellion against authority as a good thing. It is always difficult for me to understand that even if a person believes in the current system, that they would view those of us who wish to achieve freedom, equality, and a more peaceful world as having something “wrong” with us.
“It seems for some obscure reason I have never been able to understand, most people need to have some form of power over them, be it political or religious as a way to feel safer. “
It is the way that they have been conditioned by authority as the reason why people want such power over them, is the way I feel. It is difficult for them to grasp that idea that they don’t need them when they have had the idea so enforced in their heads that everything good is given to us by authority. Yet, if we look at the things that people view so favorably that they have, it isn’t that the government willfully gave it to them, it is that the governments were forced by the people to give it to them.
“Life isn’t safe, nothing is certain, only lack of prejudice, compassion to all and good will to work together to make a better world can make the difference but first you have to overcome fear, greed and selfishness”
Those words are very true. As I believe it was said by Chomsky, the differences that we have, for any sane person, are things to celebrate. Our differences are things to recognize of beauty, but sadly, people feel inclined to follow the authority which always preaches violence against those who are different.
And your welcome for the reply to whattheheck.
Solidarity-

Wolf-
On another note to your response to the other guy.
“ We live our lives by the choices we make. That is freedom. Life is good.” You’ve got to be kidding me? Do you honestly think we are even allowed to make choices? We have no serious choices to make, because we are wage slaves, and our lives are dictated by the need to make money, and little amount at it. We do not make choices, we are coerced into doing things by our need to make the wages.
You said that people are irresponsible with their incomes, and mismanaging them because they can’t afford to go to the doctor and such? How do you even figure this? You have no logic to any of your arguments, just shallow points which lack any substance or thought into how the system works. You are the same slave as the rest of us, but you just refuse to realize it. The majority of the wealth of the country is in the hands of the richest elite, and then the rest is unequally divided up to the public. We are divided into classes, and the people who work the hardest often are the ones who get the worst wages, and when they break their backs working their asses off, what do they get? A big screw you from the system. You’re probably one of those people who sits there and gripes about public welfare, and public crime, and how we need to crack down on both, but when it comes to corporate welfare, and corporate crime, that’s acceptable. The capitalist system exploits the workers, and gives all the benefits to an elite group, how is that freedom? We still are submitting to a higher “authority” and aren’t allowed to make any choices ourselves.
Again, we do not have the freedom you think we have. We have no say so in the system, we have no say so in the way our society is ran, we simply submit to “authorities” who claim that this is a democracy. We are deprived of our freedoms by the economy, and by the state.

“Do you honestly think we are even allowed to make choices? We have no serious choices to make, because we are wage slaves, and our lives are dictated by the need to make money, and little amount at it. We do not make choices, we are coerced into doing things by our need to make the wages.”
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Anarcho,

First off the U.S. is not a democracy it is a republic, but that is a different topic.

As to your assessment of life in the U.S. — certainly each of us is facing different personal issues. Some are born into better economic circumstances, racial biases are an issue for a substantial segment, some are better looking, more talented — intelligence and health play a major role.

But…. Much of what Wolf alludes to is also true. Many people do not make the most of their opportunities. Many want more no matter how well off they already are. Some make poor choices (Yes, we do make choices.) early in life which hamper their futures — having children they can’t afford is more lasting than buying a house beyond reason. A criminal record.  Choosing a job with little demand.  The choices are infinite.

A lot depends on luck, or more accurately, timing of things beyond our control.  The kids who see a successful musician or athlete can dream their life away hoping for that big break — the day to day grind and saving for the future seems just too demanding.

It has become much more difficult in recent years to start from nothing and rise to fame and fortune. But it is nearly always possible to do better.

In my own family I can see that my own sons will probably be the first generation to be less well off. My father’s father came here a little over a century ago with nothing. He had been a farmer, but couldn’t afford land, so he became a coal miner.

My father never finished school due to his father’s health and he had to work to support his parents and three younger siblings.

I had only two years of college, but could draw. Advertising was in demand and after several years at low wages, started my own studio where I earned enough to support our family of four.

One son has a degree in statistics from a major university and the other followed in my line of work. Statistics are “off-shoreable” and India is a threat to his job right now. Virtually all my clients of forty years have left town for low cost labor and that son is now working for less than half he made ten years ago.

They can choose to sit and complain or to try some other line of work which cannot be exported and will continue to be in demand. A lot depends on choosing values other than money and things.

Whatever your own circumstances which have you feeling like a “slave to the system” you are free to go someplace you think will be better. Start from where you are and decide were you are able to go where opportunity is greater.

Whatever our county’s faults — I can’t think of anywhere I would rather be.

Sheesh!  You succeed in doing good in the world and all the nutjobs come out in force to criticize.

Another War We Can’t Afford

In the first six months of 1942, immediately after Pearl Harbor, the United States wrote purchase orders for war materials and related war efforts that exceeded the GNP.  The national debt during WWII reached over 125% of GNP.

Right now the national indebtedness is falling in comparison to GNP.  To say that the United States “can’t afford” another war is patently ridiculous.  This is the only war in American history in which the deficit is falling.  Winning without fighting (against Iran and NoKo, for examples) is much preferable to winning with fighting, but the dollar cost is negligible and simply not a factor when dealing with head hunters and practitioners of human sacrifice, such as the Jihadists. 

Civilian and military casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq are also negligible compared to previous wars, and civilian casualties in Iraq are a small fraction of the civilian murders during Saddam’s regime.  The American casualties in Iraq/Afghanistan are very much on the order of 09/11, Beirut, and Mogadishu. making the current war on terror casualty rate the lowest in American history, both in absolute and relative terms. 

Nazi is short for Nationalsozialistische (National Socialist), it does not mean National Capitalist.  Both Socialism and Fascism are shabby intellectual constructs designed to give power to totalitarians (Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, and Hillary, if and when she achieves power). 

Democratic, rule-of-law capitalism is the only thing that stands between the United States and another round of world totalitarian excess.  You collectivists and anarchists think you can make the ideal world by imposing your failed values on the American Republic.  You are as dumb as dog shit.  Never happen.

Whattheheck-

“certainly each of us is facing different personal issues. Some are born into better economic circumstances, racial biases are an issue for a substantial segment, some are better looking, more talented — intelligence and health play a major role.  Many people do not make the most of their opportunities. Many want more no matter how well off they already are. Some make poor choices (Yes, we do make choices.) early in life which hamper their futures — having children they can’t afford is more lasting than buying a house beyond reason. A criminal record.  Choosing a job with little demand.  The choices are infinite. “

You seem to not be too naive as to some of the problems with the system, yet you fail to analyze them overall as being a product of the system, and instead choose as most do, to blame it on the people. Yes, some spend more than they have, but does the very society we live in not promote this behavior? Do the authority figures which people have been told to follow, as we are told that they have the answers not direct us towards that lifestyle of overspending and overconsuming? That is the very nature of Capitalism in general, is to overconsume. The system does not provide the overwhelming oppurtunities which you think it does, and yes, there are choices involved for people, but as you basically say without directly pointing it out, is that people are most of the time forced to become wage-slaves, working jobs that they don’t care to work for low amounts, because the system has screwed them over. Certainly the majority of America is not well off, and this should be obvious. How can we expect people to live off of minimum wage, better yet, even twice the amount of minimum wage which is still by the governments own standards, poverty levels. People often times do have to overspend just to survive; making low amounts of money doesn’t pay the bills. As for the idea that people are having children which they can’t afford to have, yes, in the cases of the LDS religion especially people are having waay to many kids, but they are also indoctrinated by the church “authority” that they have to do so in order to get into heaven. People are also forced to pay tithings to the LDS church as well as other churches which make sure that people believe htey are ging to hell if they don’t. Then you have taxes which people have to pay, getting screwed over on those, while the government continues to give tax breaks to the wealthiest. Inequality in America is a huge problem, while the system isn’t addressing, but only seeking to make worst. At it, the capitalist system seeks to exploit foreign countries, enforcing neoliberal economic policies which do not benefit the people, and then ends up creating worser economic conditions in those countries which lead to things such as illegal immigration, which in the end leads to people coming to America who are either becoming slaves through the governments guest-worker program, or working for lesser amounts of money then Americans can afford to work for, which doesn’t help the situation of American jobs-something which can’t be blamed on immigrants, and only can be blamed on the system. Criminal record is also a difficulty on getting a job, as you said. It becomes difficult to blame it on them though, considering the fact that crime is mostly a result of the breakdown of social order which is mostly caused by the inequality that the system once again creates.

“Whatever your own circumstances which have you feeling like a “slave to the system” you are free to go someplace you think will be better. Start from where you are and decide were you are able to go where opportunity is greater. Whatever our county’s faults — I can’t think of anywhere I would rather be.”
First off, your idea that one can really escape capitalism is difficult when the US through wars, imperialism, and other actions have created basically a global capitalist economy. And anywhere that doesn’t have policies which are friendly to capitalism (thus unfriendly to the people) really isn’t safe to live, because the US is likely to take some action to create it into a free market system eventually.
Even if I could go somewhere else though, why should I have to leave? Why should I have to seek out another place to live? Afterall, this countries is supposed to belong to the people, not a small minority, and when the people are getting screwed over, they have an obligation to not just pack up and leave, they have an obligation to make things better for themselves. As i have said before, I believe the change which would make things better is an anarchist society. Capitalism and State go hand and hand with each other, and oppression is an element with both. Even ignoring my anarchist perspective, if you look at what this government is supposed to provide the people with according to the constitution, and the bill of rights, this government cleary no longer does. We are now subject as people to human rights abuses, discrmination based on class or race, police brutality, oppressive laws, intrusive legislation and laws such as the Patriot Act, we have no habeus corpus if we are suspected of terrorism because, well, according to one Senator, habeus corpus for prisoners at Gitmo would create a clog in the system, etc. So basically we have a system which our rights can no longer be granted to us because it will create a clog in the system, we have a government which wages w ars for the sake of empire (something which numeerous presidents have warned against) and corporate profits, doesn’t care about the people or what we want, amongst many other problems. We are forced to do things we don’t want, work many hours for shitty pay, obey laws and rules which restrict our freedom, and largely are not allowed to do what we want unless the State feels it won’t hurt their standing too much, hell, if we peacefully gather to protest a war we risk getting tear gas shot at us. So, it isn’t that I “feel” because of my circumtances that I am subject to slavey, it is because the reality of the situation shows that we are essentially slaves.

Scorp-
Even if the US can afford to go to another war, the result of that war will ultmately cost the public, and only benefit corporations and the already wealthy. Social programs have already been slashed, with Bush’s war in Iraq, and if you really insist that w can spend more money and everything will be just fine, then why the hell is the countries infrastructure falling apart? That money that is spent on war could be spent to do things such as, oh, fix bridges, and other things that are neccessary.
The money which is going to be directed towards attacking Iran is only a theft from the poor and the hungry of the world, as we further direct money away from helping those in poverty, and those in hunger, as well as spending money on humanitarian missions and such, and continue to spend more and more money on war. An initial attack may not be that costly in your mind, but the effect of being at war with multiple nations, as, attacking Iran will surely piss off Russia and other nations, is going to cost more than you are taking into consideration. Not to mention the fact that if we attack Iran it will further destabilize Iraq, costing more money.
The cost in the end though in dollars isn’t as relevant as the cost of lives. We’ve killed millions in Iraq and who knows how many more will end up dead as a result of an attack on Iran. If we attack Iran, civilians are going to be killed, which is going to create a rise in terrorism obviously, and will help out organizations such as Al Qaeda, why is it people like you are so naive that you don’t see this?
And the United States has killed more Iraqi’s than Saddam ever has, but to say that Saddam alone killed them is difficult, because of US complicity in all of his crimes. We sold him Weapons of Mass Destruction, we sold him chemical warfare, and oh yes, it was our apache helicopters which he needed in order to use the chemical weapons which resulted in the genocide he committed. But oh no, America’s governmetn is far to perfect to be guilty right? Has it ever occured to you that you have the same attitude as the Nazi’s themselves did with the German government? You have strong nationalism which doesn’t benefit youo or the rest of us, further going along with yoru slavery, and indoctrination by this system will not make things better.
“Democratic, rule-of-law capitalism is the only thing that stands between the United States and another round of world totalitarian excess.”
Give me a break. Democracy and Capitalism are the two most incompatible things there are. The interests of the market are held above the interests of the people at all times, and the decisions, the laws, and the rules are always reflective of the wants of the elite class. Anytime a society is divided into classes, you cannot define that as freedom or democracy. Yu have a flawed definition of democracy.  The system is corporatist, it works for the corporations, and creates wage slaves out of the people, we are forced to serve people who don’t act in our interests. We are in a society of masters and slaves, and the masters need the slaves, the slaves don’t need the masters. This system is modeled off of the ideas of Miltin Friedman, and Friedmans ideas are hardly democratic. Neoliberal economic policies do not represent freedom, democracy, or anything else you want to say America represents, once you stop believing this just because those who are in positions of power told you this, the sooner you will be better off.
“You collectivists and anarchists think you can make the ideal world by imposing your failed values on the American Republic.  You are as dumb as dog shit.  Never happen.”
if our values are failed then the values which you espouse that America believes in are failed. We belive in freedom, equality, and peace, and a society which the peopple come together collectively to decide on issues, that is democracy in the truest since of the word. Our ideas won’t happen if stupid people like you keep on following leaders which profess to represent peoples interests when they really don’t. You attack us because you dont’ understand us. You probably go with the popular idea that we believe in chaos and destruction, ideas which you get from authorites. Any system which forces you to obey, and follow laws is oppressive, and we, are far past our dependency on a hierarchical structure, where you, are apparently too afraid to abandon them. Apparently you can’t live without them, and have some dependency on following others because it is to difficult for you to accept the idea that you are in control of your own life. Your type of people are the same people who go to church loyally on Sunday and follow a god and a Christ because you have this sense of obedience which you’ve been taught you can’t live without. Anarchists are free in all the ways you will never be, we live in all the ways which you would like to think that you do but in reality lack the understanding that you are deprived of the means to live in that way by the system. The things you follow are simply abstract ideas which don’t physically exist, it takes indoctrinating the public and brainwashing them to continue to suppress the reality that we have lived without those ideas in the past, and we can do it again.
The idea that capitalism is setting us apart from totalitarian regimes and such is very naive. Capitalist ideas flourish within the totalitarian regime in China, which has adopted the ideas of disaster capitalism from Friedman. And capitalism is the system which creates the governments which you deem to be so horrible and keeps them in power, the capitalism which has flourished through Latin America has been a prime example, the system which you propose goes so well with democracy, was used by military dictatorships ran off of human rights abuses (which capitalism promotes).

Many important factors are different. During WW2 the top tax bracket was over 90 percent! — Today top guys make 300 to 500 times as much as their employees.

The war, Social Security and Medicare (huge dollar amounts) are all “off-balance sheet.” Creative accounting has become a national art form.

The dollar cost of war should not, however, be a factor — what is the cost of losing a major city, thousands, tens of thousands of lives, the use of land or water supply for hundreds of years? These are the true costs to consider.

WW2 deaths in combat were I believe over 300,000 with another 175,000 from other causes. Every death is significant and those who are risking theirs must be supported in every way AND our contracts with them honored 100 percent and promptly — they are not always.

whattheheck, your WW2 body count is short for many millions, unless you don’t consider the rest of the deaths as “significant”. Believe me, they were as they are now, most people don’t want a war, any war because it kills them or their loved ones, ruins their land and changes their lives forever.
Wolf, don’t you worry, nobody is trying to impose anything on your American Repúblic, some of us are just trying to help you think in a humane way. Have you ever considered that nobody chooses where or when is born and therefore we all have the same right to feel, think or live the way our conscious indicates us? As for dog shit, it’s not dumb at all, it’s part of an intelligent system created by nature to eliminate food after it’s nourished the dog’s body. As everything else in nature, it has a purpose, and perhaps its observation will make you a bit more humble.

Sorry, Wolf, I didn’t mean you, I meant scorp. The problem is I mixed you up because you seem to think alike in many respects. Peace be with you, while I continue hoping no more innocent blood is shed in the name of the empire, be it in Asia or in your land.

Anarcho -

... the result of that war will ultmately cost the public ...

You are assuming that 09/11, Beirut, and Mogadishu were cost free.  Can you justify that novel historical and economic interpretation?  Every time a person stands in line at the airport, it reasonably costs him $50 per hour, money that was not required and time that was not lost before 09/11.  A reasonable cost for 09/11 is somewhere north of $1 trillion, and still counting after all these years. 

Social programs have already been slashed ...

No shot, Sheerluck.  The biggest social program was Welfare, brought to us by LBJ and his “Great Society”.  Several years ago, George Will stated that the total cost of the Welfare program was $6 trillion, (comparable to the national debt, which I’m sure you also complain about) but in extensive research of the federal budget records from the 1970s to the 1990s, I was only able to identify about $3 trillion specifically identified as Welfare.  But that $3 trillion did not include housing and other programs that probably were included in Welfare. 

You know, of course, that Bubba ended the Welfare program for good reason; Welfare had a massive destructive effect on black families, besides being hideously expensive.  Pat Moynihan stated that LBJ’s Welfare program would be a disaster, and it was. 

That money that is spent on war could be spent to do things such as, oh, fix bridges, and other things that are neccessary.

Your off-the-wall observations are classic.  Bubba stupidly allowed the dot.com Bubba Bubble to develop, leading to unsustainable surpluses, and he should have realized that all bubbles eventually pop.  The Bubba Bubble began falling apart in the last year of Clinton’s presidency, when the surpluses stopped growing, two quarters had negative growth, the DOW peaked and started down, and the NASDAQ lost half its value. 

When you have the world’s most productive economy, and you can borrow money for 2-3%, and get a 10% return on investment, you should be borrowing all you can from the Chinese, Japanese, Europes, whomever.  You should not be pissing away good money to build a surplus. 

The three primary needs of this country are Social Security, medical care, and infrastructure.  Why in the hell Bubba wasted all those years paying down the debt defies belief.  Like just how stupid is that son-of-a-bitch?

Democracy and Capitalism are the two most incompatible things there are.

You shitting me, boy?

How about Communism and Democracy?  The Soviet Union collapsed of inefficiency and corruption, does that give you the tiniest clue that Communism and Democracy might be incompatible?  The Soviets held regular elections, did that make them a Democracy?

Of course, you and your ilk go on and on and on and on about how bad things are in the USA, but who believes the Collectivist propaganda?

The system is corporatist, it works for the corporations, and creates wage slaves out of the people.

The big joke for years in the Soviet Union was, “They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work.” That was why the system was so corrupt and inefficient. 

You probably go with the popular idea that we believe in chaos and destruction, ideas which you get from authorites.

Um, no, I get the not-so-popular idea from Antonio Gramsci, who laid out a specific program of social communism, as opposed to economic communism, which he early realized to be a an abject failure.  Social communism is a plan to subvert institutions (media, schools, churches, courts, politics) in order to install a Collectivist tyranny and create the New Soviet Man in the USA.

Don’t worry, you are perfectly safe as long as you don’t resort to violence and fraud, as Lenin and Stalin did in very similar circumstances, and Soros and Hillary are now flirting with.

Anarcho,

Slavery in the U.S. is only a mind set. I’m not saying you SHOULD leave, just that you COULD leave.

I’m also a victim of the outsourcing. I have the names of 56 individuals I know who have lost their jobs, been forced to take early retirement or have gone out of business. (My case is one of the latter.)

I first began to see it happening in the mid1980s when a fastener mfg. client shifted their operation to Taiwan. I see the NAFTA vote in 1993 as the “official” blessing by congress and wrote to everyone I could think of protesting it as stupid and detrimental to our economy. Our representatives fell for the line that it would provide the consumer with better prices. The National Chamber of Commerce pointed to the increasing U.S. exports (Yes, to those companies which used to be in this country was ignored.) The AFL-CIO answered essentially saying you mind your business and we’ll mind ours. My clients quoted the “competitive advantage"Âť theory and said they had no choice if they wanted to stay in business. The NRA — one of the most vocal supporters of U.S. citizens’ rights— said, “We are a one issue organization."Âť

I thought for sure the UAW would not stand for it. Surely people would rebel against the emasculating of U.S. industry. Boy, was I wrong!

Just as the Nazis took one group at a time instead of all at once — those nearing retirement went quietly, those in middle management fell as individuals, and those still left thought, “It won’t happen to me.”

Certainly some in positions of power knew what was happening and how they could benefit. But after reading a score of books pro and con about globalization, I see most of them as following their Econ 101 textbook theories right down the line.

Now, there are websites calling for opposition to what is happening, but all they want is your dollars — in most cases you cannot even send an email.
One client told me they were insisting their suppliers lower their prices just as Wal-Mart and K-Mart had done to them. When I said I would not do that to my suppliers since they had provided good service at reasonable prices and they had to earn a living he said I would go out of business. He was right, but because companies like his (my customers) are gone too.

It is greed at all levels which have brought us to this sorry condition. Not just the greed of those at the top, but also the individuals who went along rather than speak out in the board rooms, the union meeting and the single owner companies like mine who gave in to the demands of the Big Box stores and companies.

You say you are “willing to fight"Âť to change the “system”. Just what do you think you can do?

Change will come in due time. Many people are still in denial. My friends who are a bit older and retired before me still can’t see it. But — when enough people feel the pain, the dollar is low enough and the U.S. is no longer the consumer of world output — the flow will reverse.

Everything is interconnected. The current subprime lending scam is a good example. We know the pain is being felt by the home buyer who bought beyond his means — but there are big time investors who thought they could benefit and are now caught it the web. There will be thousands of over priced homes whose prices will come down to the affordability level. Greed provides its own chastisement.

There is a FREE MARKET! Not the one the financial analysts preach, but the one of supply and demand. No one can control Mr. Market indefinitely. My son was in the Soviet Union in 1984. For 70 years they had set government prices and production quotas — it didn’t work. The real price on everything was set by the black market where the buyers offered what they were willing to pay and the sellers took what they were willing to accept.

If you find a short cut let me know.

Maria,

Yes, you are correct. There are estimates of as many as 60 million deaths. Stalin alone is believed to have been responsible for 20 million. I was thinking in comparative U.S. losses WW2/ Iraq.

However much people may not want war — it is inevitable — just as crime is. Politicians here keep saying the people want us to “end the war” and pull out of Iraq.

That would end nothing, just relocate it. You can start a war unilaterally - you cannot have only one side stop.

“Peace be with you, while I continue hoping no more innocent blood is shed in the name of the empire, be it in Asia or in your land”

Maria - your hopes are my hopes. The details of how to get from here to there vary, but nonetheless, we both hope for peace and harmony in the world at large.

anarcho-liberation - i do not know where or how you live, but it sounds like an entirely different place (mindset?) than where i hail from. Here (the land of the free?) i am able to decide what profession i wish to pursue, how many children i want, what religion i wish to follow (if any), and how i wish to allocate my financial and other resources. My life is full of my choices, some good and some bad. In a wide variety of ways (antibiotics come immediately to mind!), these are the best of times, ever. (Disclaimer: No implication is made to project these amazing times forward to the uncertain future, where anything may happen.)

You also wrote: “You said that people are irresponsible with their incomes, and mismanaging them because they can’t afford to go to the doctor and such?”

You should read more carefully before making such silly assertions as above! Your response includes both a made up opinion you ascribe to me and your straw man reply. Very sloppy!

Wolf said:

“How sad it must be to grow up in such primitive conditions, when wealth and knowledge are both available to them. I pity those who are unlucky enough to be born there. But perhaps they will come out of savagery and ignorance and eventually find they way into the modern world (rather than attempting to destroy same). One can only hope, for their sakes and ours.”

That’s how I feel about people growing up in Texas under the radical Christian fundamentalists.  All fundamentalist could stand to read Richard Dawkin’s book the God Delusion IMO.

mrraven has an interesting point that emphasizes my own. Even fundamentalist Texas is **far** more progressive than say, Saudi Arabia or anyplace in Africa. No forced FGM, no requirements to wear burkas, the ability for women to go to school (or the ice cream shop for that matter!) and choose their own careers/husbands/lives. Yep, compared to some western places, Texas may be a bit conservative, but compared to the middle east and Africa (and much of Asia) it is a wonderful place to be.

I see little distinction between fundamentalist Christians versus fundamentalist atheists. Both have faith in the unknowable, they merely differ in the details of said faith.

Wolf the big difference is empirical scientific hypotheses are testable under double blind conditions where as religious beliefs are not. 

So are you schilling for Christian fundamentalists who I see as little different than Iranian Muslim fundamentalists as in reverend “god hates fags” Phelps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps

I would no more want to live in his town than I would want to live under the Mullahs.

Wolf said:

“The trick to not being a wage slave is simple. Save a minimum of 10% of your income, preferably 20%. Invest in a broad based mutual fund (401K or IRA are optimal) and wait a few decades. Then decide what to do with the rest of your life.”

Try telling that to someone working at Wal-Mart with a sick child and no health insurance whose choice is take the kid to the doctor, pay the rent, heat the house or eat for the month (chose ONE).  And no it’s nothing to do with choices, people ARE going to be doing these jobs for the foreseeable future because gasp we don’t live the Jetsons future where robots do such labor.  Of course your dirty secret is you don’t care as long as you get yours.  Well don’t be surprised if the chickens come home to roost bearing pitchforks outside the gated communities some day… I won’t cry a single tear when the manager and ownership class to which you belong is deposed for you are 15% and the rest of us are 85% of the population.  85% beats 15% every time, count on it…

mrraven - While i agree with you that Phelps is no good, i assert that he is quite far from the mainstream of US Christianity. He also has no control over the government, unlike the Mullahs. (Yea for the USA!)

I would assert that the most important things in life are not scientific. Love comes immediately to mind, but you might also think of other things that are relevant to your own life as well. I am unaware of any proof that God does not exist (or that he does); thus i keep an open mind (what we do know is that the universe (multiverse?) exists, we have no idea of how or why, ultimately).

I agree that the circumstances which you describe above do not lend themselves to saving. But they are not typical either. For the vast majority of us, we can save 10-20%, we just don’t because we want new shiny stuff.  Furthermore note that the assertion was made (not by me!) that “people making as much as six figure incomes virtual indentured servants.”. Pathetic.

Lastly, why make up stories about my life? It would behoove you to stick to the discussion as best you can. In any case, i wish you nothing but happiness and a fruitful life. Peace.

If you talk about a “broad based mutual fund (401K or IRA are optimal) “ I don’t have to “make up stories” I KNOW that you are a yuppie, I KNOW that the MAJORITY of people working crappy service jobs don’t speak that way, the sad thing is you are too far out of touch to even know that, sort of like Bush I being dumbfounded by a supermarket scanner.

No peace without justice I hope you have nightmares of hungry homeless children ASSHOLE!!!!!

Wolf-
You conveniently fail to address all the points which refute your claims, other than simply saying the same repetitive bullshit arguments which rely on your faith in authority and America. You think your government and your country are so great and it’s time you wkae up and realize it’s not. America killed millions of people in World War II, and people like you are going to say it was a noble fight cause we had to stop fascism, yet it was your fucking government which youadore so much which sat there and supported Germany (majority of American’s too), your fucking government that supported Fascism, that chose to do nothing to stop fascism when the war was starting up in Spain (although there were Americans who had the courage to go over there and fight in Spains civil war with our Spanish comrades when YOUR government made it illegal to do so). You speak so proudly that you live in America and not some other shithole but it’s the US government that is making the rest of the world its shithole, and allowing the corporations to continue to exploit them. The capitalistsystem which you love so much is the same system which is exporting jobs in America and relying on little kids in some other third world country working 12 hour days for 3cents an hour in sweatshop labor conditions. It’s your government which claims to be fighting a war on terror, yet is fine when its corporations are supporting right-wing paramlitary death squads in Columbia. Your government which is sponsoring terrorist actions in Iran. Your government which gave power to Osama Bin Laden, and gave all of those pesky terrorists in Afghanistan the weapons that they are now fighting us with. Your government which left people there to die in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, and it was your government htat knew that the levees were going to break, and did nothing about it, because it would harm its public image to much. Your government did nothing to prevent the 9/11 attacks even though it knew that something was going to happen, and your great commander in chief which you love so much was given a PDB directly saying that Osama bin Laden was determined to strike in the US, and even said that he wanted to attack New York, and what did your fearless commander do? He went on vacation. Your government that is torturing people across the world. Your government which is kidnapping citizens of other countries because they are “suspected” of terrorism, and taking them to secret prisons which will torture them. Your government which is allowing corporations such as Hersheys to use human slavery. Your government which has the blood of millions of innocent people on its hands because it, not the people, didn’t feel that the people had a right to choose communism. Your government which overthrew the democratically elected government of Chile, because it was marxist. Your government supported the rise to power of a military dictatorship which killed, tortured, kidnapped, and enforceed a brutal reign throughout its years because they wanted a capitalist system instead (which Pinochet followed with), because that freedom to choose their goverenment was to harmful to USinterests to let them decide Marxist. Your govenrment is killing millions in Iraq. Your government created the displacement of millions of people in Iraq, Your government has cuased millions of refugees to come out of Iraq. Your governmeent which overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran, and installed the military dictatorship of the Shah which once again was repressive, and brutal on its people. Your government supports Saudi Arabia(Israel too), the biggest human rights violator in the world. Your government inititated Operation Condor. Your government which continues to discrminate agianst indigenous people. A simple look at the news, shows all of the ugly, and evil policies which your government supports.

Wolf-

Now, you have based everyone of your comments on the same fucking ideology which is America is great, and America is the best, and America is free. You fail to show through facts how it is, and only rely on the same arguments. America is ran by corrupt leaders, and authority figures who work for their own benefits. The system which you love is slowly becoming more and more of a disaster capitalist system. If you read what Friedman actually said, and believed in, and read what is really happening you’d realize a lot more. Everything good in this country is a result of the people forcing the government against its will to give it to us. And those people which have provided so much great, are dissidents, and activists which have never been right-wing, which you apparently are. In fact, the labor movement which provided better working conditions, was largely the result of anarchists, and was opposed by capitalists of course. It was demanded by the people that better working conditions be created, and so they were, it wasn’t the government, and it wasn’t the capitalists which gave it to them. Many have been killed by your government in the struggle for better labor conditions, and now, people like you shame those peoples memories. You are one of those people who has relied upon the history taught you by authority, the type of history which teaches the state’s perspective, and never shows what actually happened. I suggest you read some Howard Zinn books in order to break free of this.
You love this country, and say that we have such great freedom, and democracy. I dissagre with you obviously, but what good we do have in this country, is in your mind something which the State has provided us with because it is good, when in reality, it is only there because people have risen up, the good things which you love are the result of dissidents, activists, anarchists, socialists, communists, and others who have realized the flaws within this system and government. Thsoe are the very people which authority in America teaches you to hate and think are evil. You believe America is great because you don’t want to have to get off your ass and make a difference to make things better. As you think anarchy is such a flawed idea, you put your faith in right-wing leaders who want to do away with the government anyways, because the government is imposing too many regulations on the market in their minds. They are the ones who want a truly free market, in which the corporations are allowed to do whatever they want for the sake of profit, and exploit us even more. Their dreams are a country where the people have no say so, but the market determines every aspect of life. This is not democracy, nor is it freedom, for the needs of the people and market, are as I said earlier, largely different.
You want to talk about religion? You think we are this perfect society where every religion is treated equally? What about wiccans? What about Muslims who are rounded up because we assume they are terrorists? I mean, cmon, ever since 9/11 we have looked at every muslim as a terrorist, and have locked many of them up. Are you going to tell me that is religious freedom? I can’t escape Christianity no matter where I go, nor can I escape people preaching about your feeble Christ. We hear slogans of “Jesus saves” everywhere we go, and have our government passing laws based off of their religious beliefs (birth control decisions are one example). The majority of the people who have been in the Bush regime have graduated from Pat Robertsons religious school, and the Republicans which you seem to follow so blindly, were all deeply saddened when the hate mongerer piece of shit Jerry Falwell died.
If you want to be enslaved, that’s fine, but don’t give me this line of shit of freedom, because your idea of freedom is really just oppression. If you really want to continue to comment as well, then I would encourage you to actually refute the facts which I present, but I guess that would be too difficult to do the research huh? Having to think outside the box, instead of just believing in everything your “leaders” tell you, is a difficult task for someone so indoctrinated.
“

You should read more carefully before making such silly assertions as above! Your response includes both a made up opinion you ascribe to me and your straw man reply. Very sloppy!”
Aren’t you cute? I’m so glad that you had an ability to deconstruct my argument by saying it’s silly and sloppy. Either you read too far into my statement or you are too ignorant to understand. You once again fail to discuss the points that I raised. And reaelly, I’m just going to go with what mrraven said because he hit the nail right on the head:
“The trick to not being a wage slave is simple. Save a minimum of 10% of your income, preferably 20%. Invest in a broad based mutual fund (401K or IRA are optimal) and wait a few decades. Then decide what to do with the rest of your life.”

Try telling that to someone working at Wal-Mart with a sick child and no health insurance whose choice is take the kid to the doctor, pay the rent, heat the house or eat for the month (chose ONE).  And no it’s nothing to do with choices, people ARE going to be doing these jobs for the foreseeable future because gasp we don’t live the Jetsons future where robots do such labor.  Of course your dirty secret is you don’t care as long as you get yours.  Well don’t be surprised if the chickens come home to roost bearing pitchforks outside the gated communities some day… I won’t cry a single tear when manager and ownership class to which you belong is deposed for you are 15% and the rest of are 85% of the population.  85% beats 15% every time, count on it…” I too, would like to hear a response to that.

Scorp,

Last night while watching “The War” I noticed the B-24s produced at Ford had over a million parts. We were able to produce a plane every 63 minutes!

Look at us now that our manufactruring has been deported.

NAFTA — Not A Fine Thing America.

Anarcho,

I realize there are many people who fit your example of the Wal-Mart employee. Their numbers have been on the increase for some time now. Unless or until a person or someone close to him is in that situation it is hard to realize or understand.

Maybe you are just venting at Wolf because it is impossible to communicate with the ones who could/should do something about it. There are a couple of men in congress who have been addressing the issue, but are vastly out numbered. Bernie Sanders and Byron Dorgan come immediately to mind. Unfortunately, after the drubbing Perot took I have not heard any candidate for the White House come close to the problem. He was only wrong about the sound effects— a slow hssssss instead of a Giant Sucking Sound so far.

Wolf,

I recommend the book, “Nickel and Dimed” by Barbara Ehrenreich to get a feeling for what many hard working people are facing.

Hi WTH -

I agree that some fraction of Americans are unable to save due being employed in low paying jobs. Many of these same people are better off in later years, either through getting more job training or simply by advancing up the ladder. Some, of course, never advance and never do better. This is unfortunate, but has always been that way and is likely to continue into the foreseeable future.

However, my assertion is that the vast majority of us (but not everyone) can save if we choose to. Many do not *choose* to, but buy nicer cars, electronic toys, cell phones, etc. The example given by theloneous was that people making 6 figures were having a hard time making ends meet (!!!). While i do not doubt that, i do think it is very likely due to a lack of personal responsibility and not the fault of government policies. One might think that readers of this site would be advocating less consumerism (as i do), which would naturally lead to more personal wealth over time. . .

Having started out quite poor myself, i am a strong advocate of education. It has at least two major benefits: broadening the mind and enhancing ones earning potential. Plus in many cases, it can lead to finding a career that is more than just a way to get money - something personally fulfilling and also useful to society. It certainly worked for me and can/does work for many many people.

“Some fraction” equals more than a third including the homeless, “discouraged workers,” and the increasing number of service workers as the U.S. de-industrializes under the shock therapy of corporate globalization.  Again Wolf (good name for you BTW) your dirty secret is that you don’t care as long as you have yours.  Well I say a pox on your house for an attitude of not caring that so many millions suffer both here in the U.S. and in the third world because of the policies you advocate.

“Well I say a pox on your house for an attitude of not caring that so many millions suffer both here in the U.S. and in the third world because of the policies you advocate.”

Yeah advocating savings for those who can and education in general is pretty darnright nasty of me (really, a pox?). Not to mention my persistent politeness, even when attacked with little or no provocation. Yep, i can really see where you are coming from - the question is can you?

Anyway, i hope that you can work out your personal ssues and find a measure of happiness. Best of luck to you and yours. Goodbye my surly friend.

Wolf when you are living high off the hog it is real damn easy to be polite.  Try doing physical labor all day and you may come to a different view of the world.  Further you straw man twisted my words, the people I am talking about are those who will NEVER be able to save no matter what they do.  So yes I repeat a pox on your house for endorsing policies that cause people to suffer.  I wish you sickness and unemployment with no health insurance THEN perhaps you would know how it feels you unfeeling cretin. I suspect if you lived in those conditions SUDDENLY you would have a miraculous conversion to leftism, after all when your ox is getting gored laissez affaire crony capitalism doesn’t look to good, does it?  New age feel good “positive” pablum from the upper middle class has never impressed me and it never will, for it is the thin veneer of civility below which lies policies that lead to people with weeping infected sores living under bridges.  Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make a better cake of society, and again I will cry no tears when your egg is broken, for I have cried all my tears for the homeless and for the brave activists (including myself) who have suffered state repression.  As Malcom X said sometimes the chickens come home to roost, and there are millions of Wal-Mart employed, homeless, people of color, gay, people living in ecological wastelands, and sick with no insurance chickens so beware rich and smug.

Wolf,

There was a time when I would have agreed with everything you say here. But no longer.

I have too many friends who are not doing anywhere near as well as when they were younger. My own income dropped steadily from the early 1990s until my last client left in 2004.

Job retraining is the stock answer from nearly all who have not missed a paycheck or lost benefits.

I was continuously “retraining” from 1990 to 2004. I made the switch to digital and spent nearly $100,000 on hardware and software over that time frame just to stay in business.

Except for two 2-year periods (when my son worked with me) I was a one man operation. When I compared the last ten years before computers to the first ten with, I found I was working 27.3 percent more non-billable time at work — mostly learning software upgrades.

Today anyone who is not computer literate is severely limited, but knowing how to use them is no great advantage — it is now expected.

So what should a person retrain to do? What do you do and how when your job goes to India, if you are say, 50 with two or three kids in or approaching college age ? What do you do if a member of your family has a major health problem after you lose your job?

You would move to where work is more plentiful, but with high unemployment in your town, everyone is trying to sell his house at the same time?

How can you take time to go back to school? What if you find another job with no health care? My barber is 58, has had open heart surgery, has major prescription expenses and a $15,000 deductible. His premiums come to $10,000 per year — his wife is on another policy at an additional cost.

What do you do when there are no jobs available in your town for which you are qualified, and you cannot afford the transportation to interview where there is one?

These are then kind of things pointed out from first hand experience by Barbara Ehrenreich in her book. Wal-Mart is one of the jobs she took. What a hell hole!

I was fortunate. I got my first job in 1955 and was NEVER turned down for any job I applied for. After starting my own business in 1966 if I lost a client I always found a replacement almost immediately — until I was able to keep so busy I often turned away work1990.

This era must be especially difficult for those at the lowest end of the job scale. I am continuously (pleasantly) surprised there has been little or no violence aimed at illegal aliens yet. Added to their problem is the older, better educated worker who must continue to work and will take that job at McDonald’s or Wal-Mart.

Another book with concrete examples of how hard it is to get a living wage job is an autobiographical one, “Selling Ben Cheever.”

Are you still working? If you are untouched by the economical revolution — you have been very lucky.

I for one, definitely blame government policies which have favored corporate management and pushed globalization with no attempt to moderate it or aid those people being displaced by it. I find it interesting how some of the same people who used the FREE MARKET reason for no gov’t intervention are crying for the gov’t to bail out the sub prime scammers.

Tax cuts are only meaningful to those who are making enough to need to pay taxes.

wth -

You ask a lot of thoughtful questions in your post. While no one can answer them all for all people. there are solutions for many out there. For instance, when my wife’s job disappeared, she retrained to be a nurse. It is a profession that we expect will be in high demand over our lifetimes and contributes nicely to society. Note that this “solution” works best for two income families and (in our case, at least) might involve getting student loans (which we found to be very accessible).

In any case, those who can save should save. Hopefully for retirement, but also in case of unemployment or other financial disaster. Living below ones means is, to my mind, one of the the secrets to happiness. (And yes i know that not everyone can do this, but the majority can and should.)

“This era must be especially difficult for those at the lowest end of the job scale”

I agree that this era can be difficult, but doubt it is anywhere near as difficult as bygone eras. Imagine being “free” on the frontier farm - crops fail and you may starve. No health insurance or care much of the time. No electronics or luxury toys. This era seems to be the best to me, for both rich and poor. As in all eras, being poor still sucks, but unlike most eras, many poor people here have enough to eat (obesity being a significant issue, even for the poor), cheap entertainment (color tv, cable, dvds) and preventative medicine (vaccines).

“My barber is 58, has had open heart surgery, major prescription expenses and a $15,000 deductible and his premium come to $10,000 per year — his wife is on another policy at an additional cost.”

Stories like the one above have pretty much convinced me that we need to change the health care system in the US. Somehow we need to cover everyone. I don’t know what the answer is, my only hope is that we don’t go from this bad situation to something even worse. I imagine that the 2008 election will be heavily focused on this topic.

I agree that the government should do what it can to help people, particularly when aimed at teaching them to help themselves.  Hence my comments on education/training. Helping those in need can be a tricky proposition, one wants to help them, but at the same time not foster dependency or a sense of worthlessness.

I continue to work, and hope/expect to for another 15-20 years, though i have toyed with the idea of changing professions in a few years.

Wolf sed: “...i have toyed with the idea of changing professions in a few years.”

Do you even understand you are part of a privileged minority Wolf?  Do you think the person working full time at Wal-Mart and then coming home to deal with issues of family and house has the time, energy, or money to do what you propose?  I would estimate roughly a third of U.S. citizens are STUCK in a position where there is no time for job retraining you speak of, but rather a life of toil, suffering with no end in sight. You are thus condemning through your philosophy 100 MILLION people in the U.S. to a life of hard ship and suffering. If I seem angry it’s because I believe game theorists are right that one ought to respond tit for tat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat

to the behavior of our fellow citizens.  In this case you ought not to be surprised that your tit of a laissez affair philosophy that leads to suffering for millions (which yes I have experienced) leads to my tat of wanting to see you suffer in turn.  If you want to see a virtuous circle of cooperation you must help those people around you Wolf least they turn on you in extreme anger, again you have been warned, if you continue to advocate for laissez affaire corporate globalization do not be surprised that those who suffer from such a policy decide to rise up against you. Again tit for tat motherf*cker.

Hi, y’all!

Does anyone believe that Iran would be trying to build a nuclear weapon if they were not afraid we were going to invade them next? Nuclear weapons are the only ones we respect, and since President Bushllit’s invasion of Iraq the Iranians have been trying to build one. Note: since the invasion of Iraq the Iranians have been trying to build one.

Thanks Bushllit for wrecking the Middle- East for the next century. Hope the oil profits were worth it!

I thought we were discussing the possibility of USA attacking Iran, but it seems that the subject has changed to learn how smart wolf is, how polite, and why doesn’t everyone imitate his savings policy. I could fill several pages telling you about my experiences but that wouldn’t help anybody. The knot we have before us is the way USA has been producing single-handedly different wars for the past decades, while Europe, Japan, and most of the world seem to have learned through pain what a war means and have refused to take part in them. Someone proposed in this discussion that a coalition be formed against Irak and Iran but I’m afraid you will continue to be alone on perpetrating wars. Have you considered the fact that while you claim to be the “democracy” of the world you haven’t developed a moral sense of respect to others who may think or want for their countries another view? All your wars have been outside your frontiers, while most of your population went on with their lives as if nothing was happening. You have been the only nation to use nuclear weapons against others and I am sure you still have them stacked somewhere handy.  You have been behind dictatorships in Latin America, training military in the School of the Americas to torture and disappear people. Latin America has learned its lesson and has been trying to live in peace and develop its own way of living, in spite of the IMF which sent them once and again on the wrong tracks. Please, continue with your polite life, save as much as you can but don’t try to sell your “American dream” to those who have to work like mad to support a family or who live in fear. Wearing a burka or being a Muslim isn’t in itself dangerous to anybody, the way some of you talk about prospective wars, whether they would be costly or profitable is not only dangerous, but it shows a despise towards others which is despicable.

Bravo Maria, clap, clap, clap…

Whattheheck, sorry that I overlooked your reply and please forgive the lateness of my counter-reply.

“Love your enemies? Turn the other cheek?”

Yes ... and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

“Would you do away with the RCMP?”

No. The RCMP did not invade and occupy Iraq and is not threatening Iran with the same.

“Check out history - without enforcement civilization would disintegrate. Who, how and to what degree is debatable, but not IF. ”

I am watching civilization in Iraq disintegrate and the USA is primarily responsible for it. Who will enforce the law on the war criminals in your government and bring them to justice?

------

“Nuke “mistake"- What’s the big deal? For decades during the cold war there were B-52s with nukles flying 24/7. Until armed, which requires deliberate action, they are not a problem. ”

The big deal is that mistakes with nuclear weapons are a big deal. I am aware that during the cold war there were bombers loaded with nukes. Are you aware that there have been accidents where these planes have crashed and that the USA has lost more than a few nukes before.

Selected Accidents Involving Nuclear Weapons 1950-1993

“What makes you or anyone think the Russians and several others (including us) don’t still have missiles at the ready.”

What makes you think I think this. Nice straw man.

“Do you think on 9/11 those guys flying into buildings wouldn’t have loved to have been able to have nukes?”

Very weak argument ... yawn. Keep knocking down those straw men.

“You reason with them if you like. I prefer to have weapons handy.”

I am reasoning with you (or trying to at least) but I will not resort to violence to solve our differences.

Aunty, you state “ Nuclear weapons are the only ones we respect, and since President Bushllit’s invasion of Iraq the Iranians have been trying to build one. Note: since the invasion of Iraq the Iranians have been trying to build one. ”

I will ask you the same question I asked Wolf when he made a similar statement that alleged the Iranians are building nuclear weapons. Where is the evidence for your allegation? Did President Bush say so?

Here is an example of evidence that refutes your allegation:

“A recent House of Representatives committee report on Iran’s nuclear capability is “outrageous and dishonest” in trying to make a case that Tehran’s program is geared toward making weapons, a senior official of the U.N. nuclear watchdog has said.”

IAEA: Iran Nuclear Report ‘Outrageous’ - U.N. Blasts House Committee Claims On Tehran’s Weapon-Making Capability

Here is another bit of evidence that refutes your allegation:

“The Leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has issued the Fatwa that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that the Islamic Republic of Iran shall never acquire these weapons. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who took office just recently, in his inaugural address reiterated that his government is against weapons of mass destruction and will only pursue nuclear activities in the peaceful domain. The leadership of Iran has pledged at the highest level that Iran will remain a non-nuclear-weapon state party to the NPT and has placed the entire scope of its nuclear activities under IAEA safeguards and additional protocol, in addition to undertaking voluntary transparency measures with the agency that have even gone beyond the requirements of the agency’s safeguard system.”

Iran is a nuclear fuel cycle technology holder, a capability which is exclusively for peaceful purposes

Now, I am not so naive as to believe anything and everything someone says but considering the lies in the run-up to the attack on Iraq please forgive me if I suspect that what President Bush (or a US House of Representatives committee) has to say regarding Iran isn’t a pack of lies too.

David,

You may reason with me, but I’ll not attack you. If some unreasonable person were attacking your fam