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What kind of reaction would the Rev. Wright have received from his congregation if rather than, “God damn America!” he had said, “God help America!” ?
It is evident from their website that his overall approach has been divisive.
His kind of “performance art” is hardly going to unite or heal opinion for either black or white.
In his handling of this issue Obama appears to be a master of the William Clintonesque “performance art” of divert rather than confront.
Posted by whattheheck on Apr 10, 2008 at 8:53 AM
While what was done to the distant ancestors of some of the black folk living in the Americas today was reprehensible (i.e., being captured by their fellow Africans, sold into slavery and brought against their will, often dying in transit, to the Americas), their descendants have benefited mightily from this atrocity. Nowhere in Africa is the standard of living near even the lower classes in the US. While no justice can be done to those who have long since departed this earth, their descendants can take advantage of their good fortune in living in this land of opportunity. Many Africans would be grateful for the opportunity to have US citizenship but will never have such opportunity.
Where ever one finds oneself, one must begin there. Being born in the US is a blessing that none of us should take for granted. To those who feel a need for further justice, they should do whatever is in their ability to help those unfortunates left on the continent of Africa (one of the only places in the world today that continues to get worse by leaps and bounds).
Posted by wolf on Apr 10, 2008 at 1:15 PM
Wolf,
To add to your comment on benefitting from the past conditions
Posted by whattheheck on Apr 10, 2008 at 1:34 PM
I also appreciate any straight talk about my country that is based on real evidence. Give a point to Condi, maybe there’s hope for her after the “Bush era” closes. I don’t think that sort of candor should be regarded as unpatriotic (as though Rice is in any way unpatriotic… ridiculous), and in fact every human tribe has blood-soaked hands, even tribe-America (some on the receiving end of American violence or blundering might say, “especially” rather than “even”). No one is immune, no one is above it all, surely not the most powerful nation that has ever existed. So to whitewash US history or pretend that the nation can do no wrong, or has never done anything undebatably wrong, is honestly rather childish as well as being unrealistic, ahistoric.
I will say that in the 20th century American power caused more good than harm. However, to pretend that we are incapable of doing more harm than good EVER is silly. To pretend that it is impossible for us to do more harm to ourselves than good is also silly (actually a bit stupid). That’s mythological thinking, unsuitable for the 21st century.
We should all have the guts to look at our own flaws and mistakes and instances of needless harming. It’s the only way to have a chance of not doing wrong things, to others as well as ourselves, in the future. This applies at the individual level as well as the national level, especially since the United States has such vast clout that even when we do nothing more than swing our figurative hips, there’s almost as much chance we’ll smash something up as it is that we’ll begin the dance party.
Why be afraid of the ugly truth? We should just look at it dead-on and not be such candy-asses. Singing patriotic songs and looking the other way doesn’t mature us as a society.
Posted by Kuya on Apr 10, 2008 at 10:14 PM
“Why be afraid of the ugly truth?”
In fact, we should seek to know both our good and bad sides. An article i read recently said that the solution to the illegal immigration issue is actually quite straightforward: simply give subscriptions to those that want to come to the US free lefty periodicals. That will convince them that the US is not a desirable place to come to. . . :)
The lesson being that we should not only see the bad, but the good as well (as you allude to quite nicely above).
It seems to me that the far larger “birth defect” of the US was the treatment of its native peoples. they are arguably the only group whose descendants are probably far worse off due to the settlement of the Americas by the various immigrants (both forced and voluntary).
Posted by wolf on Apr 11, 2008 at 7:20 AM
All British, French and U.S. (etc.) colonialists, around the world, viewed nonwhite indigenous people as less than human, perhaps more like monkeys. To think that people should consider themselves lucky to be the descendents of slaves is ignorant.
Of course the halls of graduate schools at MIT, Stanford etc. are full of nonwhite people, and of course you see them in three piece suits all over the world, just goes to show how wrong those white folks were. ...nuff said!
Posted by drobe on Apr 11, 2008 at 1:09 PM
“All British, French and U.S. (etc.) colonialists, around the world, viewed nonwhite indigenous people as less than human, perhaps more like monkeys. To think that people should consider themselves lucky to be the descendents of slaves is ignorant.”
Perhaps ignorant, but nonetheless undoubtedly true.
Odd that you mention the above 3 nations by name, but leave off a supposedly “civilized” nation that actually committed genocide in **modern times**.
Also odd that you ignored the role of Africans in the capture of the slaves (along with the genocides currently taking place on that unfortunate continent). You certainly have the right to express your opinion, but you might ought to try to be at least vaguely fact based.
Posted by wolf on Apr 11, 2008 at 4:41 PM
Salim seems pleased as punch that folks are talking about race. That’s his thing ..... race.
But in this day and age, I believe that when we do talk about race, we should do it in a way that properly reflects the enormous progress that has been made, instead of dwelling on a past that is largely irrelevant today. Rev. Wright, as Obama himself astutely pointed out, fails to recognize the progress, and sees America as it was 40, 50, or 60 years ago.
Salim says that Foxnews has taken Wright out of context; failed to present a whole picture of the man. (Actually, it’s ABC News you should be citing—they got the ball rolling) However, Salim neglects context when he fails to mention or link to the part of Rice’s speech that sets her outlook on race apart from Wright. After briefly laying out the unfortunate history that we’re all aware of, she goes on to say what more black leaders should be saying:
“On the other hand, the tremendous efforts of many, many, many people, some of whom, whose names we will never know and some individuals’ names who we do know, to be impatient with this country for not fulfilling its own principles, has led us down a path that has put African Americans in positions and places that, I think, nobody would have even thought at the time that Dr. King was assassinated. And so we deal daily with this contradiction, this paradox about America, that on the one hand, the birth defect continues to have effects on our country, and indeed, on the discourse and effects on perhaps the deepest thoughts that people hold; and on the other hand, the enormous progress that has been made by the efforts of blacks and whites together, to finally fulfill those principles.”
“At the very least, it has provoked a dialogue about race so serious that it even has Condoleezza Rice talking black.”—Salim
Actually, race was a small part of her interview, and only then in response to a question. The notion that Obama has provoked a comment by Rice is overblown; Rice has spoken often in the past on the issue in the terms Salim so loves, but she’s also put them in the proper context of progress made by ALL Americans.
Posted by Natalie on Apr 13, 2008 at 3:48 AM
Drobe,
I didn’t say, “...people should consider themselves lucky to be the descendents of slaves…” What I was pointing out is that we are all what we are largely through past circumstances. My ancestors had nothing when they came here, but I am better off because of what they did. What I do with my life, my circumstances, my abilities or handicaps
Posted by whattheheck on Apr 13, 2008 at 5:42 AM
The latest Obama speech, delivered in his same deliberate, calm style, seems indicative of how his twenty years with Rev. Wright has “colored” his view of America.
Not only did he screw up royally, but true to form (like his mentor, Wright) ...“no apologies.”
He left out only the word “white”, but managed to denigrate small town residents, believers in God, the Second Amendment in a few well chosen words.
I think Condi will avoid identification with this one.
I now wish I had never voted for him
Posted by whattheheck on Apr 13, 2008 at 5:54 AM
Natalie - Another article from Salim about race. From the same very limited pov. I guess your challenge has been answered. . . :(
I guess there is an upside. There is something to say about job security.
Posted by wolf on Apr 13, 2008 at 7:08 AM
Whatthe….
We might agree on more than we disagree, BUT, I was reacting more to your comment, “hm, maybe we were a little hasty splitting away”.
I’m not writing essays here, what I do is a stream of consciousness. I left “almost” (all) out intentionally. ...just to liven up the discussion a bit. ...get a reaction if you will. I was only referring to those who took part, in any way with colonialism, not everyday people in those countries.
...back to your quote. Here is another quote from a dialogue or paraphrase, “A: ...but there were good colonialists” “B: There were no good colonialists, only colonialists”. Basically, there was nothing good that came out of colonialism for the colonized. I forget the source, it might have been a little book entitled, The Colonizer and The Colonized by Albert Memi. I recommend you read this old classic if you really believe “we were a little hasty splitting away” ...perhaps you misspoke.
There seems to be lot of misspeaking on the campaign trail. Many of Obama’s statement are great discussion starters. Man, don’t jump ship so fast.
Posted by drobe on Apr 13, 2008 at 7:54 AM
Drobe,
My hasty comment has a smily face after it which I meant as an indication that I was kidding.
Actually one side of my family (mother) includes a General in Washington’s army who fought the whole eight years to be free of colonial non-representative rule. My father’s side came at the end of the 1800s to escape the hard times in Sweden.
I don’t often quote the Bible anymore, but as I remember there is a comment about someone meaning something to be evil, “...but God can use evil for good.”
It seems perfectly reasonable to see the good which came from colonialism in that at least the 300 years of British rule in India made English their most common language which gives them a head start in globalization. People such as Ghandi were educated in England and I sincerely believe those guys I saw in London are better off at least financially than they might have been.
Also Canada and Australia chose to become part of the dominion group of nations rather than a total split and must have seen some good in it.
We can’t know how things might have gone without the colonization, perhaps the native populations would have advanced as well or better without it.
I’m just glad my Dad’s family chose to come here when they did.
A word of caution about livening up things. I have more than once unintentionally stirred some pretty angry comments. The written word sometimes is too easily misinterpreted without the voice inflection, body language and facial expression as a guide to the audience.
re: Obama,
I had already given up on him before this last booboo. I’‘m not very happy with our options, but usually am not. Harry Truman didn’t want the job and Gerald Ford only wanted to be Speaker of the House
Posted by whattheheck on Apr 13, 2008 at 9:52 AM
whatthe….
I’m new at this, didn’t catch the smily face the first time around—cute.
For now, I rather read a few more comments from others before adding much more. But, your comments are quite eurocentered, which is not all bad. Memmi (2 ms) references mostly what the colonizers did to the colonized mind (nonwhite). All the railroads, three piece suits etc. can’t undo the damage.
Posted by drobe on Apr 13, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Drobe,
I guess I assumed that we pretty well know the downside of colonization the lack of freedom, the insults and oppression. I just wanted to point out there are some positive results. I was actually pleasantly surprised when seeing the large number of “three piece suits” in London.
I do remember reading one of Winston Churchill’s comments (I believe it is his book River War.) when he expressed the attitude (late 1800s) that he felt responsible to care for the people in the colonies, almost as if they were “Britain’s children”. I was not sure whether this was a condescending comment or exactly what he meant.
Either way I agree the upside results excuse nothing, but should not be ignored IMO (in my opinion).
Welcome to the internet discussions. Since you are new to this I’ll try too remember to clarify any symbols and initials as a communication shortcut. Also, I’ll mention (something you may already know) writers often state as fact information which they may have picked up from online blogs (opinion sites) without any documentation. I try not to do this, but at times I’m sure I forget.
Is that a German flag on your posts? It’s a bit small for old eyes to distinguish the top color bar.
Posted by whattheheck on Apr 13, 2008 at 12:24 PM
Well said Wolf and Whatheheck.
I can see that there has been great benefit to african-americans,blacks,negroes,N-word,people of color,etc,etc,etc. The black people of this country are who they are due to their past and I can see that they have gotten great benefit from that past.It never seems to be brought out ,but at the beginning of this country white were brought here as indentured servants.Now maybe that is not quite as horrific as the slave ships.It is none the less slavery.I do get tired of being portrayed as some kind of white devil because of what happened in the past.I and my entire family are just blue collar people and have never owned slaves.We have been wage slaves our entire history.It is never brought up or do black people march on Italy ,or Egypt for owning slaves.It is seldom brought out about who sold black africans into slavery,their own fellow black africans .Give it a rest and get over it or don’t and keep using this problem to better your lives as you have in the past,but get off of my back and stop blaming all whites for what happened for the last 2 or 3 thousand years.
Posted by eddiemyboy1 on Apr 16, 2008 at 4:55 AM
Eddiemyboy,
You wrote of wage slaves. I have mentioned occasionally how I think today’s economic trend in the U.S. may be a uniting factor to override the racial divide. In fact, it could even be the uniter of many categories of discrimination
Posted by whattheheck on Apr 16, 2008 at 6:11 AM
I am right behind you on this topic whattheheck.It seems almost criminal what the upper echelons of Big Business get for pay,and this is even if their company goes into the dumpster.
Posted by eddiemyboy1 on Apr 17, 2008 at 4:49 AM
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Reader Comments
What kind of reaction would the Rev. Wright have received from his congregation if rather than, “God damn America!” he had said, “God help America!” ?
It is evident from their website that his overall approach has been divisive.
His kind of “performance art” is hardly going to unite or heal opinion for either black or white.
In his handling of this issue Obama appears to be a master of the William Clintonesque “performance art” of divert rather than confront.
While what was done to the distant ancestors of some of the black folk living in the Americas today was reprehensible (i.e., being captured by their fellow Africans, sold into slavery and brought against their will, often dying in transit, to the Americas), their descendants have benefited mightily from this atrocity. Nowhere in Africa is the standard of living near even the lower classes in the US. While no justice can be done to those who have long since departed this earth, their descendants can take advantage of their good fortune in living in this land of opportunity. Many Africans would be grateful for the opportunity to have US citizenship but will never have such opportunity.
Where ever one finds oneself, one must begin there. Being born in the US is a blessing that none of us should take for granted. To those who feel a need for further justice, they should do whatever is in their ability to help those unfortunates left on the continent of Africa (one of the only places in the world today that continues to get worse by leaps and bounds).
Wolf,
To add to your comment on benefitting from the past conditions
I also appreciate any straight talk about my country that is based on real evidence. Give a point to Condi, maybe there’s hope for her after the “Bush era” closes. I don’t think that sort of candor should be regarded as unpatriotic (as though Rice is in any way unpatriotic… ridiculous), and in fact every human tribe has blood-soaked hands, even tribe-America (some on the receiving end of American violence or blundering might say, “especially” rather than “even”). No one is immune, no one is above it all, surely not the most powerful nation that has ever existed. So to whitewash US history or pretend that the nation can do no wrong, or has never done anything undebatably wrong, is honestly rather childish as well as being unrealistic, ahistoric.
I will say that in the 20th century American power caused more good than harm. However, to pretend that we are incapable of doing more harm than good EVER is silly. To pretend that it is impossible for us to do more harm to ourselves than good is also silly (actually a bit stupid). That’s mythological thinking, unsuitable for the 21st century.
We should all have the guts to look at our own flaws and mistakes and instances of needless harming. It’s the only way to have a chance of not doing wrong things, to others as well as ourselves, in the future. This applies at the individual level as well as the national level, especially since the United States has such vast clout that even when we do nothing more than swing our figurative hips, there’s almost as much chance we’ll smash something up as it is that we’ll begin the dance party.
Why be afraid of the ugly truth? We should just look at it dead-on and not be such candy-asses. Singing patriotic songs and looking the other way doesn’t mature us as a society.
“Why be afraid of the ugly truth?”
In fact, we should seek to know both our good and bad sides. An article i read recently said that the solution to the illegal immigration issue is actually quite straightforward: simply give subscriptions to those that want to come to the US free lefty periodicals. That will convince them that the US is not a desirable place to come to. . . :)
The lesson being that we should not only see the bad, but the good as well (as you allude to quite nicely above).
It seems to me that the far larger “birth defect” of the US was the treatment of its native peoples. they are arguably the only group whose descendants are probably far worse off due to the settlement of the Americas by the various immigrants (both forced and voluntary).
All British, French and U.S. (etc.) colonialists, around the world, viewed nonwhite indigenous people as less than human, perhaps more like monkeys. To think that people should consider themselves lucky to be the descendents of slaves is ignorant.
Of course the halls of graduate schools at MIT, Stanford etc. are full of nonwhite people, and of course you see them in three piece suits all over the world, just goes to show how wrong those white folks were. ...nuff said!
“All British, French and U.S. (etc.) colonialists, around the world, viewed nonwhite indigenous people as less than human, perhaps more like monkeys. To think that people should consider themselves lucky to be the descendents of slaves is ignorant.”
Perhaps ignorant, but nonetheless undoubtedly true.
Odd that you mention the above 3 nations by name, but leave off a supposedly “civilized” nation that actually committed genocide in **modern times**.
Also odd that you ignored the role of Africans in the capture of the slaves (along with the genocides currently taking place on that unfortunate continent). You certainly have the right to express your opinion, but you might ought to try to be at least vaguely fact based.
Salim seems pleased as punch that folks are talking about race. That’s his thing ..... race.
But in this day and age, I believe that when we do talk about race, we should do it in a way that properly reflects the enormous progress that has been made, instead of dwelling on a past that is largely irrelevant today. Rev. Wright, as Obama himself astutely pointed out, fails to recognize the progress, and sees America as it was 40, 50, or 60 years ago.
Salim says that Foxnews has taken Wright out of context; failed to present a whole picture of the man. (Actually, it’s ABC News you should be citing—they got the ball rolling) However, Salim neglects context when he fails to mention or link to the part of Rice’s speech that sets her outlook on race apart from Wright. After briefly laying out the unfortunate history that we’re all aware of, she goes on to say what more black leaders should be saying:
Actually, race was a small part of her interview, and only then in response to a question. The notion that Obama has provoked a comment by Rice is overblown; Rice has spoken often in the past on the issue in the terms Salim so loves, but she’s also put them in the proper context of progress made by ALL Americans.
Drobe,
I didn’t say, “...people should consider themselves lucky to be the descendents of slaves…” What I was pointing out is that we are all what we are largely through past circumstances. My ancestors had nothing when they came here, but I am better off because of what they did. What I do with my life, my circumstances, my abilities or handicaps
The latest Obama speech, delivered in his same deliberate, calm style, seems indicative of how his twenty years with Rev. Wright has “colored” his view of America.
Not only did he screw up royally, but true to form (like his mentor, Wright) ...“no apologies.”
He left out only the word “white”, but managed to denigrate small town residents, believers in God, the Second Amendment in a few well chosen words.
I think Condi will avoid identification with this one.
I now wish I had never voted for him
Natalie - Another article from Salim about race. From the same very limited pov. I guess your challenge has been answered. . . :(
I guess there is an upside. There is something to say about job security.
Whatthe….
We might agree on more than we disagree, BUT, I was reacting more to your comment, “hm, maybe we were a little hasty splitting away”.
I’m not writing essays here, what I do is a stream of consciousness. I left “almost” (all) out intentionally. ...just to liven up the discussion a bit. ...get a reaction if you will. I was only referring to those who took part, in any way with colonialism, not everyday people in those countries.
...back to your quote. Here is another quote from a dialogue or paraphrase, “A: ...but there were good colonialists” “B: There were no good colonialists, only colonialists”. Basically, there was nothing good that came out of colonialism for the colonized. I forget the source, it might have been a little book entitled, The Colonizer and The Colonized by Albert Memi. I recommend you read this old classic if you really believe “we were a little hasty splitting away” ...perhaps you misspoke.
There seems to be lot of misspeaking on the campaign trail. Many of Obama’s statement are great discussion starters. Man, don’t jump ship so fast.
Drobe,
My hasty comment has a smily face after it which I meant as an indication that I was kidding.
Actually one side of my family (mother) includes a General in Washington’s army who fought the whole eight years to be free of colonial non-representative rule. My father’s side came at the end of the 1800s to escape the hard times in Sweden.
I don’t often quote the Bible anymore, but as I remember there is a comment about someone meaning something to be evil, “...but God can use evil for good.”
It seems perfectly reasonable to see the good which came from colonialism in that at least the 300 years of British rule in India made English their most common language which gives them a head start in globalization. People such as Ghandi were educated in England and I sincerely believe those guys I saw in London are better off at least financially than they might have been.
Also Canada and Australia chose to become part of the dominion group of nations rather than a total split and must have seen some good in it.
We can’t know how things might have gone without the colonization, perhaps the native populations would have advanced as well or better without it.
I’m just glad my Dad’s family chose to come here when they did.
A word of caution about livening up things. I have more than once unintentionally stirred some pretty angry comments. The written word sometimes is too easily misinterpreted without the voice inflection, body language and facial expression as a guide to the audience.
re: Obama,
I had already given up on him before this last booboo. I’‘m not very happy with our options, but usually am not. Harry Truman didn’t want the job and Gerald Ford only wanted to be Speaker of the House
whatthe….
I’m new at this, didn’t catch the smily face the first time around—cute.
For now, I rather read a few more comments from others before adding much more. But, your comments are quite eurocentered, which is not all bad. Memmi (2 ms) references mostly what the colonizers did to the colonized mind (nonwhite). All the railroads, three piece suits etc. can’t undo the damage.
Drobe,
I guess I assumed that we pretty well know the downside of colonization the lack of freedom, the insults and oppression. I just wanted to point out there are some positive results. I was actually pleasantly surprised when seeing the large number of “three piece suits” in London.
I do remember reading one of Winston Churchill’s comments (I believe it is his book River War.) when he expressed the attitude (late 1800s) that he felt responsible to care for the people in the colonies, almost as if they were “Britain’s children”. I was not sure whether this was a condescending comment or exactly what he meant.
Either way I agree the upside results excuse nothing, but should not be ignored IMO (in my opinion).
Welcome to the internet discussions. Since you are new to this I’ll try too remember to clarify any symbols and initials as a communication shortcut. Also, I’ll mention (something you may already know) writers often state as fact information which they may have picked up from online blogs (opinion sites) without any documentation. I try not to do this, but at times I’m sure I forget.
Is that a German flag on your posts? It’s a bit small for old eyes to distinguish the top color bar.
Well said Wolf and Whatheheck.
I can see that there has been great benefit to african-americans,blacks,negroes,N-word,people of color,etc,etc,etc. The black people of this country are who they are due to their past and I can see that they have gotten great benefit from that past.It never seems to be brought out ,but at the beginning of this country white were brought here as indentured servants.Now maybe that is not quite as horrific as the slave ships.It is none the less slavery.I do get tired of being portrayed as some kind of white devil because of what happened in the past.I and my entire family are just blue collar people and have never owned slaves.We have been wage slaves our entire history.It is never brought up or do black people march on Italy ,or Egypt for owning slaves.It is seldom brought out about who sold black africans into slavery,their own fellow black africans .Give it a rest and get over it or don’t and keep using this problem to better your lives as you have in the past,but get off of my back and stop blaming all whites for what happened for the last 2 or 3 thousand years.
Eddiemyboy,
You wrote of wage slaves. I have mentioned occasionally how I think today’s economic trend in the U.S. may be a uniting factor to override the racial divide. In fact, it could even be the uniter of many categories of discrimination
I am right behind you on this topic whattheheck.It seems almost criminal what the upper echelons of Big Business get for pay,and this is even if their company goes into the dumpster.
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