The sports media spoke in a unified voice of praise in January when Joe Gibbs was named new coach of the National Football League’s Washington Redskins. Gibbs is a Hall of Fame coach who led the Washington franchise to three Super Bowl titles in the ’80s and ’90s. Many headlines enthused his return would mark a “New Era For the… return to article
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Reader Comments (57)Page 1 of 1 pagesGet a life. If you want to bitch about something then find an issue that actually matters.
Posted by Sam on Jan 21, 2004 at 5:49 PM Anybody besides me offended by the Boston Celtics and their mascot? What about the Notre Dame Fighting Irish? These teams’ insensitivity has caused my people insufferable pain, humiliation, and anguish AND IT MUST STOP NOW! Please drop whatever you’re doing and throw your weight behind the campaign to put a stop to these unspeakable abuses.
Posted by Sam on Jan 21, 2004 at 6:08 PM Too bad there are those who care little about the racial insensitivity of others. Fact is, Indian people were nearly wiped out. Not a proud moment for most Americans. Indian mascots are shameful and hurtful. Change would start the healing process. Peace
Posted by Louis Gray on Jan 21, 2004 at 7:55 PM As someone who is of Native American Herritage and also adopted at an early age by a minority Lebanese family; I can only say that considering my family’s name and herritage a sports team could be called the Assassins or worse. Although I am not always politically correct would persons of white Protestant backgrounds want sports teams called WASPS or Cake Eaters.
Posted by James Habib on Jan 21, 2004 at 8:59 PM I can see the issue behind “Redskins.” That is referring to a horrific practice and is also a broad, sweeping stereotype. As such, it is wrong.
But to lump EVERY organization with a “Native American” mascot in the same category is just plain stupid. Case in point: The University of Illinois
This symbol refers to a tribe of NAs common to the geography in which the school is located. The “Chief”, as he is affectionately known, receives instruction and training from NA groups in tribal dances and ceremony. The Chief performs not only during football games, but also in the community - including elementary schools - and provides a vital link to understanding a culture and people who unfortunately were bumped out of their ancestral home and way of life.
Posted by Gary on Jan 21, 2004 at 9:17 PM I’m also of American Indian lineage but I don’t give a damn about the Redskins or any other athletic team with an Indian mascot. Despite what the author and Louis Gray might think, I don’t suffer from the wrongs done to my ancestors, I’m not hurt by a harmless nickname (calling Indians “redskins” is no worse than calling descendants of Europeans “white"), and I am in no need of any “healing process.” Thanks for the thought, Louis, but this kind of hypersensitivity only encourages pathetic people to dwell on their countless gripes instead of moving on with their lives.
Posted by Eddie on Jan 21, 2004 at 9:47 PM A drive exists to rid San Diego State University of its “Aztecs” team name.
I have a different reason than most who want to get rid of the name. My reason is that why should the Aztecs be honored with the team name? The Aztecs engaged in the human sacrifice of other Indians. It is like naming the team after the Nazis.
Posted by Al on Jan 21, 2004 at 10:23 PM Lighten up. Language evolves. Just as “stench” no longer is used in referrence to a rose’s smell, Redskin no longer applies to scalps. We’ve got better things to do than to try and distort what is now a harmless nickname. Spartans and Trojans would fall in the same category.
Posted by Edward Fox on Jan 22, 2004 at 12:59 AM I think maybe your concern is a little excessive. I know that old ways and habits are hard to break but I always thought that Redskins was a reference to skin color. Scalping was a horrible crime but maybe you should investigate what was done to Custer’s troops. Scalping was actually referred to as “counting coup”, coup being French for cut. Don’t you think sometimes this ethnic dismay is a little overdone in order to promote cultural cohesiveness. Aren’t we getting a little “thinskinned” here?.
Posted by J. B. McCulloch on Jan 22, 2004 at 7:08 AM I can’t remember where these guys were from but do you remember the “Fightin’ Whities” (Everything Gonna Be All White!) from last year? Native American college students using humor to turn the table. Brilliant!
I do think as a whole we’re way, way oversensitive. Of all the racial issues facing us today eliminating every single cultural reference to team names really seems silly- but the most offensive ones should obviously go- although I admit I don’t know which ones those are (the Minnesota Vikings?).
Just as a suggestion- In regards to racial discussion perhaps we’d make more progress when we figure out why children are born out of wedlock at such extraoridinary %’s (and why this has been increasing since the 60’s), or education matters like drop out rates. Real issues, real problems.
Posted by Ty on Jan 22, 2004 at 8:36 AM It seems that these days the majority of people who preach “racial insensitivity” are white. I think it’s great that you’re trying to atone for the sins of your ancestors, but in all honesty, this fad of political correctness isn’t the way. I think it’s insulting to the groups you’re talking about because, guess what, you’re not one of them but you’re speaking for them. If you want to help the amercian indians who suffered through the northamercian takeover, sell your home, give their descendants money and move somewhere else...don’t find an easy band-aid solution that doesn’t make a difference.
Posted by Marco Foglia on Jan 22, 2004 at 9:22 AM Sorry Marco, I’m not selling my house and giving the money to anybody. Also, all the Indian who “suffered through the North American takeover” are dead now, so nobody can help them. And their ancestors would be a lot better off if they got over it instead of just moping around waiting for an apology.
Posted by Sam on Jan 22, 2004 at 9:36 AM I didn’t really mean for people to sell their houses. I meant that bitching isn’t gonna change anything, and if they REALLY cared about whatever the topic of the week was, they’d find a REAL way to fix it. Shooting things down PUBLICLY is self serving when you’re not changing anything, and the people who do it bother me :)
Posted by Marco Foglia on Jan 22, 2004 at 10:20 AM People think the Indigenous people are extinct and the word REDSKIN is to honor their culture. If you understand the REAL history of this country maybe then people will understand WHY the word is offensive.
Posted by Frank on Jan 22, 2004 at 10:51 AM A name that isn’t mentioned in the article that’s just as offensive is the Dallas Cowboys. The team’s nickname is a slur in that it depicts the people of Texas as a bunch of Stetson-wearing, gun-toting yahoos. Oh, wait, on second thought…
Posted by Steve Olson on Jan 22, 2004 at 1:35 PM The problem with “reader comments” is the apparent belief that all opinions are equal. This lack of thinking results in the banal comments I have read here and too many other places. These comments do an injustice to the issue in the same manner that an auto mechanic would do if asked to perform open heart surgery. The dull witted comments do not evoke new thoughts and some opinions are more informed than others. “Getting a life” might begin with this acceptance.
Posted by dan Green on Jan 22, 2004 at 3:02 PM From the looks of this article the bleeding hearts at ITT are really hard up for something to cry about.
Posted by Al on Jan 22, 2004 at 6:03 PM some people see the events depicted in the article as progress towards a better society. I can see why. It’s much easier than trying to fix the BIG problems that would actually,significantly improve society. But those improvements will require a lot of CHANGE, and people aren’t ready for that I guess. So instead, they waste time on things that will improve the dominant moral conscience, ignoring the state the country is in.
Posted by marco on Jan 22, 2004 at 9:49 PM Sometimes I think some of these issues are taken a little too far, to the point of absurdity.
Posted by Lyle D. Hettinger on Jan 23, 2004 at 1:36 AM Did y’all hear about the Orange County, CA football teams that named themselves the Mujahideens, Intifada and Soldiers of Allah? Many people were “outraged” by such a choice of names. The teams involved said they “never set out to upset or offend anyone.” So what’s all the outrage about? These are just youngsters out having innocent fun in a holiday football tournament. They didn’t kill nobody. I’m sure those who feel the Washington Redskins is an acceptable team name will stand up and defend these young Muslims’ decision to choose any name they like. Right?
Posted by Daniel on Jan 27, 2004 at 3:14 AM Did y’all hear about the Orange County, CA football teams that named themselves the Mujahideens, Intifada and Soldiers of Allah? Many people were “outraged” by such a choice of names. The teams involved said they “never set out to upset or offend anyone.” So what’s all the outrage about? These are just youngsters out having innocent fun in a holiday football tournament. They didn’t kill nobody. I’m sure those who feel the Washington Redskins is an acceptable team name will stand up and defend these young Muslims’ decision to choose any name they like. Right?
Posted by Daniel on Jan 27, 2004 at 3:14 AM Did y’all hear about the Orange County, CA football teams that named themselves the Mujahideens, Intifada and Soldiers of Allah? Many people were “outraged” by such a choice of names. The teams involved said they “never set out to upset or offend anyone.” So what’s all the outrage about? These are just youngsters out having innocent fun in a holiday football tournament. They didn’t kill nobody. I’m sure those who feel the Washington Redskins is an acceptable team name will stand up and defend these young Muslims’ decision to choose any name they like. Right?
Posted by Daniel on Jan 27, 2004 at 3:16 AM Did y’all hear about the Orange County, CA football teams that named themselves the Mujahideens, Intifada and Soldiers of Allah? Many people were “outraged” by such a choice of names. The teams involved said they “never set out to upset or offend anyone.” So what’s all the outrage about? These are just youngsters out having innocent fun in a holiday football tournament. They didn’t kill nobody. I’m sure those who feel the Washington Redskins is an acceptable team name will stand up and defend these young Muslims’ decision to choose any name they like. Right?
Posted by Daniel on Jan 27, 2004 at 3:16 AM ...I do have a suggestion. If campuses and teams want to “honor” Native Americans, then name a football stadium or college building after prominent heroes. Sitting Bull School of Business, Crazy Horse Football Stadium (in D.C., of course). Now that’s genuine honor.
Posted by Daniel on Jan 27, 2004 at 3:32 AM Why would you name a business school after a people that fleeced out of everything they own? There are plenty of reasons to honor Indian chiefs, but their business sense is not one of them.
Posted by Al on Jan 27, 2004 at 11:40 AM Hmm, you forget that the chiefs of today are doing quite well with the lucrative casinos. Their business savvy is evident here. Honor them.
Posted by daniel on Jan 28, 2004 at 12:57 AM Wow, and to think that I loved the Redskins during their Joe Theismann era. And to think I am a multicultural mix of black and red and white. I agree that if a baseball, basketball or football team were to be called the Atlanta brillo pad heads or the San Francisco Darkies, we would all have our politically correct antennas raised high and twitching in horror.
It never occured to me, while I was cheering on Theisman, or Riggins, that indeed I was also supporting the owner, Jack what’s his name, in his adamant racial ignorance that some people (indeed a part of my people) would find it hateful, or hurtful.
While, I personally have had my consciousness raised to the point of “hmmm” and am not yet incensed by it...I do appreciate that others may feel even more hurt. And in this spirit of understanding...I accept and acknowledge and support their efforts to call attention to the sanctioned corporate name calling and will become more vigilent about stopping it myself. What do you call the Washingtoon ***skins, then? What solutions do you provide, to persuade us to change our thinking?
Posted by sjm on Jan 28, 2004 at 1:02 PM Wow, and to think that I loved the Redskins during their Joe Theismann era. And to think I am a multicultural mix of black and red and white. I agree that if a baseball, basketball or football team were to be called the Atlanta brillo pad heads or the San Francisco Darkies, we would all have our politically correct antennas raised high and twitching in horror.
It never occured to me, while I was cheering on Theisman, or Riggins, that indeed I was also supporting the owner, Jack what’s his name, in his adamant racial ignorance that some people (indeed a part of my people) would find it hateful, or hurtful.
While, I personally have had my consciousness raised to the point of “hmmm” and am not yet incensed by it...I do appreciate that others may feel even more hurt. And in this spirit of understanding...I accept and acknowledge and support their efforts to call attention to the sanctioned corporate name calling and will become more vigilent about stopping it myself. What do you call the Washingtoon ***skins, then? What solutions do you provide, to persuade us to change our thinking?
Posted by sjm on Jan 28, 2004 at 1:03 PM Thoroughly agree that these Native American names and mascots should not be used and while you’re at it let’s boycott Nike for their ad of playing basketball in the (black) church, this too is demeaning and in bad taste. Who’s idea was this anyway?
Posted by C. Jones on Jan 28, 2004 at 1:10 PM Thoroughly agree that these Native American names and mascots should not be used and while you’re at it let’s boycott Nike for their ad of playing basketball in the (black) church, this too is demeaning and in bad taste. Who’s idea was this anyway?
Posted by C. Jones on Jan 28, 2004 at 1:11 PM although i am opposed to the use of “redskins” as a football team, I am in favor of the use of “brillo heads” and “mutts.” I don’t know that the name brand will be in demand though. What color should the “Mujahideens” wear? Black? White? Red? Should their uniform colors be multiculturally based?
Posted by Daniel on Jan 29, 2004 at 4:09 AM As others have pointed out, it’s this kind of stupidity and ‘cult of the victim” hypersensitivity that stops mainstream America from taking progressives seriously.
Posted by nathan Fisher on Jan 29, 2004 at 3:50 PM “People think the Indigenous people are extinct and the word REDSKIN is to honor their culture”
What people think this? I cannot imagine and do not believe that anyone in America thinks this to be true.
Have you any support for this claim?
“stupidity and ‘cult of the victim"”
You think it is stupid to be offended by the term Redskin?
You fail to see the very apt analogy between calling a team the Redskins and calling a team the Darkies or the Pale Pieces of Meat? You think none of these are offensive?
You whiteboys are all the same. Because of your small penises, you want to belittle the real men who can give women real pleasure.
Posted by Nus on Jan 30, 2004 at 11:04 AM Except that I can’t think of sports team that they would be appropriate for, the NY Hymies and Dallas Jewboys each have a nice ring. (I’m a Jew which is why I chose these examples).
It’s one thing to choose an ethnic or racial name that appeals to (local?) members of that group to become fans and supporters - as I speculate was the original motivation behind the choice of Celtics and Vikings for those teams. It’s another when an ethnic name is chosen that accurately represents neither the members nor fans of the team.
Posted by paul on Jan 30, 2004 at 1:43 PM I agree with most reader comments. This is a stupid issue. The problem with these overlysensitive people is that they’ve forgotten how dictionaries work. Dictionaries don’t define words; people do. When the meaning of a word has changed (as is obviously the case with redskins since nobody intends to offend when they use the word today) these people are stuck with the old version of the word that’s written in the dictionary. The meaning of words is all about intent. If some people started protesting because they sincerely take offense at the word “cucumber” we would find that ridiculous; even if the word “cucumber” actually offends them, nobody uses the word with that intention.
Boycott Nike because of their use of sweat shop labor and their general contribution to the commodification of life and cool.
www.blackspotsneaker.org (Adbusters project for an alternative sneaker)
Posted by Phil on Jan 30, 2004 at 6:45 PM So this is a “stupid” issue, but promoting a sneaker that will hopefully compete with the Nike brand is somehow wise. Isn’t the use and sale of a (ridiculous) native american image and the name Redskin a “commodification of life?” At least the sweatshop workers are making some duckets off the exploitation.
Posted by daniel on Jan 31, 2004 at 4:29 AM sure. all professional/college sports logos contribute to the commodification of life. it’s a big industry. one i choose not to support.
personally, i don’t see the appeal of watching and keeping up with professional sports. why do people care. i like playing sports. but why would i want to waste my time watching people i don’t know (and who don’t know me) run around a field/court with other people i don’t know. and why do professional sports teams get public funding and tax breaks to build stadiums. i’d rather have it go towards community sports/recreation centers.
but i’m off topic. native american people have it rough. nobody denies that. sports teams aren’t the problem though. the native american images/words used are so far removed from actual native americans in public mind. the meaning of these words/images in this context has essentially changed. if there ever was, i don’t think there remains any intention of offense.
Posted by Phil on Jan 31, 2004 at 3:41 PM The hubris shown in some of the above comments leaves me weak with laughter....it seems to me “ that in the olden days”, when communication was less effective, issuses such as Mr. Muwakkil addresses might have been talked about in the “ coffee houses”, the corner saloon, or the student unions, and may have been relevent and/or interesting.....ya’ know, something to talk about....but for gawd sake, can’t we wake up and smell the coffee....there are issues on this planet that relate to our survival, as a species, as a civilization, as a family........the internet has bred homogamy. We talk about talking about it...but the cucumber comment was pretty damn funny. I’m thinkin’ we need to take a reality check, and the sooner the better…
I’m feeling a little uneasy about checking Caucasian tomorrow when I go to the DMV for my endorsement.....and blonde /bald jokes must be banned and the law banning them must be strictly enforced!
Might it not behove us to dwell on how our government is “shafting” us? Why wages are intolerably low, why we allow a government filled with insipient ass-kissers and how many children under five go to bed hungry and/or are parented by severly drug impaired miscreants. So,...shall we continue this inane comversation?..
Posted by lynage on Feb 1, 2004 at 8:53 PM Let’s start a new NBA team, and call it the Niggers. It won’t be offensive! ‘Cause Black people call themselves that all the time! It’s all good! Perhaps what we need is to make more ethnic-based team names. There are a lot of ethnicities that are still not represented, like Chinkees, Kykes, Dotheads, Sand Niggers, Japs, Krauts, etc.... Oh, and by the way, to all those folks who are scolding the “PC” people and “bleeding hearts” for caring about this and saying they should do something more useful - I kinda doubt that y’all are doing anything useful for the world yourselves. I mean, if you were, then you wouldn’t be loggin on to this website to whine about liberals. What a waste of time!
Posted by Ro Strummer on Feb 2, 2004 at 10:18 AM Many of the posted responses are meaningless if not silly because they fail to put the issue in a proper historical perspective. In the era when most of the Native American nicknames and mascots were chosen white institutions used the names of none human animals-- tigers, bears, etc. to denote the presumed prowess of their teams. In white American lore, Native Americans were dehumanized and viewed as subhuman. That is why the initial and continued use of Native American nicknames for athletic teams was and continues to be insulting. The use of nicknames such as Celtics, Fighting Irish, and Vikings arose in an entirely different context and hence carries entirely different connotations. Those nicknames were chosen out of deference and respect for the distinct human qualities that the chosen people were thought to embody.
As for those who exhort us to get a life and forget about demeaning nicknames and address “more important problems,” we might be chastened by their admonition if we had reason to believe that they are actually involved in such efforts.
Posted by Mack H. Jones on Feb 2, 2004 at 4:00 PM most of the comments were incredibly ignorant and really a waste of time for those who want to say we should be concerned about more important things. if doing “relevant” things to change the direction this country is top on your list of to do’s, get away from your computer and put your money where your mouth is, otherwise shut up.
oh yeah, the people who are most upset about the “overlysensitive” and “bleeding hearts” are more than likely white males who listen to way to much Rush and think his opinions matter more than the ranting of a stupid junkie.
Posted by buck on Feb 3, 2004 at 6:18 PM by the by, when i typed in Rush in my earlier comment, i meant Limbaugh and not the band from Canada. I think they actually have something to say as opposed to the dumbass radio talk show host, oxycontin junkie, and all around stupid guy.
Posted by buck on Feb 3, 2004 at 6:22 PM i mean really, can we keep the postings germain to the subject of the article or should we go on being dumbshits.
Posted by buck on Feb 3, 2004 at 7:35 PM Darhling....I’m not feeling the love.....but I do “appreciate all the “jump ins and tell us what you really think”.....I,personally don’t wan to impune anyone’s integrity, that being the feeling of the gut...,.like, “should I or should I not?”......I have put my money where my mouth is on the subject of abused children....not matter what color , race, creed and all the rest that divides us.....For several years, after my regular job, I was trained volunteer in the “ride along program”, in our local police department. The crap I saw, night after night helped put my priorities in order.....said to one 10 year old step-child,
“ get the f*** out of my house you whore”....of course as you well might imagine, said step parent had been charged with child molestation....bunches more....especially heart-breaking, helpless babies left in the cold, hungry, wet, along for extended lenths of time, young boys being brutilized by the mothers “boyfried”......it goes on people......thousands!! all this in a town of less than 150,000. Scabs and brusies and cracked de-hydrated lips......and always crying...crying, with unspeakable fear in their eyes…My point...yes this issue of Redskinsetc.....might bear some conversation but some of you are forgetting to do something REAL and going after a fairly irrelevent “rabbit”....But keeep stirring up thepot , so issues that could make a real difference with our brothers and sisters, get kicked under the provirbial rug.....I can tell by some of your remartks , you are young, with no REAL experience in life,
Posted by lynage on Feb 3, 2004 at 9:30 PM number one, lynage, i don’t feel the need to tell you or anyone other person I don’t know about the personal experiences I have had in my many years(did you hear that many years), but I would like you to understand that your attitude that you know best, rather than the rest of the rabble out here, is fairly condescending and stupid. If you want to turn this posting area, like you have to other postings on this site, into look how knowledgable and wonderful lynage is, why don’t you start your own site.
secondly, if you don’t agree with the basic premise of the article , that is your right, but I really would like to know why you think the author of this article is wasting his time. just because it isn’t terribly relevant to the great lynage doesn’t mean it is of consequence to others.
and lastly, I still have yet to hear from you or anyone else on this posting can tear his arguments apart with anything other than personal anecdotes or totally crap rhetoric. I am against identity ploitics, but sometimes you can’t help but be upset by a bunch of crap being spewed about the place instead of real discourse that might actually challenge someones preconceptions about themselves when it comes to race.
also, lynage, you are a being really shortsighted for assuming I am some youngin’ when you don’t know me or anything about my background.anyway, what would it matter if I was only 17 or 19,I can’t have anything to share with others if I don’t meet the correct age limit? Give me a break.
Posted by buck on Feb 4, 2004 at 11:40 AM Buck, the reason there are posts that “tear his arguments apart” is that the story does not even warrant an argument. People who get offended by the team’s name need a thicker skin and that’s all there is to it. You can cite all the terrible things that have been done to the Indians, but the fact of the matter is that the name is harmless. This article is no more ridiculous than the accusations that the Massachusettes Minutemen name was offensive to women. By the way, people who dwell on bad things that happened to their ancestors are pathetic.
Posted by Stan on Feb 4, 2004 at 12:42 PM Buck..Buck..Buck....what can one say in the face of your intensity? I bow to your “ greater than most” experience in life.....and humbly admit, I’ve been called stupid before, however, rarely by another fellow with such harshness. Your bitter attitude also tells me something about you.....
You misread me, Bucko, Salim is one of my favorite authors....I don’t ALWAYS agree with him....but am always amazed at the depth and fraternalism he often expresses. He chooses subjects that can drive a reader mad.....NOT MAKE MAD....
But thanks Buck, the world needs more guys like you....your right, ignorance is running rampart, and those of us that express ourselves differently from you are RUNNING AMOK.I like this site...but “their” right....."ya never know who you will meet on the internet”
Nice talkin’ to ya.....
Posted by lynage on Feb 4, 2004 at 10:56 PM THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!! Your story and your style very much appreciated. Retiring the Redskin Mascot, et al is an idea whose time is loooooong overdue. Thank you for your part in bringing this issue into the light. It, your article was picked up by Alternet.com also!
Posted by Phyllis von Miller on Feb 6, 2004 at 11:33 AM This morning I read on the WR’s web site that President Bush had attended a National Prayer Breakfast meeting in the capital and applauded the coach’s return. Just reinforces how desensitized and indifferent Americans are to this form of heritage racism.
Posted by Alvin M. Schrader on Feb 8, 2004 at 12:35 PM I am Aaron Poteet of the Confederated Tribes of Warm Springs Indian Reservation in Oregon.
As of July 1, 2002 the total U.S. population estimate was 288,368,698.
White alone or in combination with one or more other races = 236,232,281
Black or African American alone or in combination with one or more other races = 38,318,443
American Indian and Alaska Native alone or in combination with one or more other races = 4,327,858Native Hawaiian’s and Other Pacific Islander’s make up the smallest population(haven’t even reached a million according to the estimates). The next smallest group of people are American Indian and Alaskan Natives. The numbers which have been provided are to show you how few our voices are. Native People who oppose these names and images are not crying about “PC.” My Native brothers and sisters who oppose these racist names and images are trying to provide a foundation for future generations of our People. There is no equality for Native Americans in this country. Because our voices are few people tend to brush aside our concerns and they feel better when they say we’re a group of minorities who are crying about a “PC” issue. It’s so much deeper than this.
Native Americans have only been allowed to, legally, practice their religion since 1979. We were denied Constitutional Rights. We have a prisoner of war(Leonard Peltier), who was unlawfully convicted and who has spent more than 20 years of his life behind prison walls. We still have a government who turns their eyes when there is an illegal armed invasion(an act of war) of our sovereign nations. There is no equality amongst our People in this American society. Is it really right to desecrate an entire People for Monday night entertainment?
Our voices may be few, but our spirits are strong. Never underestimate the spirit of a People who have survived an attempted genocide. One day, there will be a foundation for our future generations, but we need people who are willing to learn and who are willing to accept change.
Posted by Aaron Poteet on Apr 14, 2004 at 9:39 AM My apologies…
“1979” should be “1978”American Indian Religious Freedom Act of 1978
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