Armed & Dangerous

” Hey Good Christian:
      You say that I don`t have sources for what I say about illegal Mexicans?Well,what the hell do you think of this?Go to CNN.COM.Read “U.S. considers residency for illegal aliens”.This will tell you they DO NOT pay payroll taxes,among other things. Go to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address),malkin1@ix.netcom.com or http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com  and read Michelle Malkin`s column “What We Owe Our Country”. This will tell you that illegal Mexicans DO NOT pay income taxes.Go to http://www.americanpolicy.org/more/main.htm . Read ” The Outrages of The Mexican Invasion”.This will tell you just how [law-abiding ] that illegals are.It will also tell you that our colleges pick up a large part of the tuition fees for illegal Mexicans.Or maybe you will want to go to http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2003/Jan03/03-01-15.shtml .Read Phyllis Schlafly`s column “U.S. Social Security for Mexicans?” I would believe any of these writers before I would believe anything written by a liberal college pinhead.

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 8, 2003 at 5:52 AM

A Good Pharisee, who calls yourselves a Christian.
You have repeatedly ask for proof of people

Posted by Seen too many of your type on Feb 8, 2003 at 9:10 AM

to “REAL america” and all those that share his view: wipe your vehement spit of the computer screen and took a look at your arguments.  the point that the “good Christian” (for whatever that means) makes is the same that you people choose to ignore - the real problem is not people crossing the border illegally, but our capitalist society encouraging illegal immigration by demanding the lowest prices for maximum profit.  your friends that have been layed off have probably seen American bureaucracy at work first hand because i doubt that anyone on the board of directors lost money when their employees lost their jobs.  the American bourgeoisie is constantly used as the stepping stool by the richest percentage.  executives and governement rely on people to attack the wrong culprit in order to protect their best interests.  why isn’t education offered as part of the american way?  because education in this country is a business.  to the person criticizing texas a&m and universtiy of texas - your lack of knowledge on the issue is embarassing and proves a lack of common sense.  do you really believe that either university would simply allow people in just because they’re illegal immigrants? universities profit off their students - any illegal immigrant that gets into a four-year university must first meet the standards of acceptance for that university in order that they don’t flunk out immediately and the university can milk them or their banks for tuition for at least 4 years. “just letting people in” is also a common argument against affirmative action in education, but again, is just a smokescreen to distract from the fact that prejudice exists at all levels of society making a truly equal education system impossible from the start.  allowing illegal immigrants the opportunity to go to school by way of considering them as foreign students shows that these universities will at least recognize an individual’s hard work to better themselves. “liberal college pinheads?”  really? do you really feel that is a comment to prove education is unnecessary.  quit being petty and stick to the issue.

Posted by n. on Feb 8, 2003 at 9:34 AM

MESSAGE ABOUT ALL THIS TO : Mike Callahan from North Carolina, and all Refugees from 3rd World Tennessee…..I’m proud to say that I moved to N.C. from the Bristol-Bluff City area of East Tennessee; I lived in Bristol and Bluff City and worked in and around the region for many years; anyone who grew up there knows that unless you have a trade or a degree, you will work a low wage job(if you can find one)or starve. I worked with a lot of white and black people, all of whom were good folks just trying to get by…. Tennessee is a beautiful state, and Bristol is a jeweled Metropolis compared to Elkin, North Carolina. It is a clean, nice, community to retire in, but employment opportunities are somewhat limited and always have been. In a few years, I hope to return home, as the people are friendlier there. I am told by friends still living there that the number of immigrants from Mexico living there are considerable less. As my wife is disabled, I will probably have to wait until my daughter is older to move, as she is not yet old enough to help me out. I live for the day I can return there; I was not born there, as my family moved there when I was a child, but Tennessee is my home. Take care! And don’t EVER let people think that white/black people won’t do the hard jobs to make a living! Its a lie!

Posted by Bobby on Feb 8, 2003 at 10:35 AM

Just because the U.S. was considering making illegal aliens permanent residents does not prove that illegal immigrants do not pay taxes.  You did not provide the link for the article on residency for illegal aliens.  It’s not on the CNN.com web site.

Michelle Malkin’s article “What We Owe Our Country” also was not on the web site you cited.  Malkin only had an article about Hillary Clinton sponsoring legislation to exempt relatives of victims of 9/11 who are illegal aliens from deportation.

The story by Tom DeWeese “Outrages of the Mexican Invasion” cites that 10,000 illegal Mexicans cross the border every day, which totals 365,000 per year; this is 0.13% of the total U.S. population of 281 million.  That is the INS’s statistic I previously cited.  I would not say that 0.13% of the U.S. population is a “flood” of illegal aliens.  He cites figures from a few hundred thousand dollars to a total of 200 million dollars in medical costs, which is still only 0.009% of the total federal budget of 2.2 trillion dollars; not even one-tenth of 1%.  To prove the point further, the $79 million cost to California represents 0.12% of California’s general tax revenues for Fiscal Year 2004-04 ($65.8 billion) and 0.23% of California’s budget deficit ($34.6 billion); not even 1% of California’s budget!  Source: http://www.dof.ca.gov/HTML/Budgt03-04/GvBdgtHghlghts/ 02_Overview_SPIRAL.pdf  The article states that illegal aliens are charged the in-state tuition-fee rate not that their tuition is paid for them.  You may feel that the illegal immigration situation is unfair or even outrageous, but this article you cited proves my point that illegal immigration does not have a substantial economic impact.  You guys really need to learn statistics and the meaning of SUBSTANTIAL or SIGNIFICANT impact.

Phyllis Schlafly`s column “U.S. Social Security for Mexicans?” that you cite says page not found so I could not read it to analyze the evidence it presents.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 8, 2003 at 10:50 AM

As I said before, it was an investigative conclusion that the Arizona local law enforcement officials made that coyotes are responsible for the killings based on a theory (i.e., speculation) given the previous immigration violations (illegal acts) of the victims; no one was caught in the act of killing, no weapons were found and there is no ballistic evidence, which means that there is not much evidence that coyotes did it.  This suspect investigative conclusion may change should the State of Arizona and Federal law enforcement officials investigate because of the suspicious context of armed “citizen militias” patrolling the border.  The State of Arizona and Federal Government investigations will set the record straight regarding the facts surrounding the murders after searching for more evidence, which might include surveillance of the white-supremacist groups to see if they catch them in the act.

I have worked low-paid jobs on-the-books before I earned my college degree.  Thanks to God and my college education, I no longer have to work those kinds of jobs anymore.  I was citing the $3-5 dollar an hour job tax-free with no medical insurance and pension benefits to point out that the jobs illegal aliens take are jobs that most people don’t want to do: house cleaners, janitors, gardeners, bus boys, etc.  I decided not to leave given the nonsense and hatred you guys post on this web site.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 8, 2003 at 10:55 AM

Clarification: the California budget statistics cited above are for Fiscal Year 2003-04.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 8, 2003 at 11:11 AM

One more statistical point about the DeWeese article, “The Outrages of the Mexican Invasion”: the $10 billion dollar statistic he sites of Mexicans sending back to Mexico are remissions from Mexican immigrants both legal and illegal earned from their pay from jobs here in the U.S.  That represents 0.10% of the $10 trillion U.S. economy.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 8, 2003 at 11:19 AM

REPLY TO:  A Good Christian in the USA….........Let me clarify a few things: I don’t want to kill illegal aliens, I don’t want them to go away mad, I just want them to go away. Statistics to support your viewpoint are written by people who are not directly affected by the influx of illegals. People who work in the media, politics, and our universities, cannot appear to be less than politically correct without losing their livelihood. They’d be fired in a New York minute!      The actual number of illegal immigrants is higher than what is counted, as many are scared of deportation and will not disclose their status.  The Mexican government will never create the kind of infrastructure in Mexico if we keep allowing the mexican people to flood our country.  Undermining the American worker to benefit illegals is wrong. The detainment posse is just the tip of the iceberg; the tide of public opinion is turning against the aliens, and without our government securing its southern border, quiet genocide could follow. Its not racist or unAmerican to question the policies of our government, especially if human lives are at stake. Heres a thought for you: I have two brother in laws who are going through the system to become citizens, but not from South America. They have paid enourmous fees, filed paperwork, and worked tirelessly to become legal residents. They follow the rules, they pay their taxes, and recieve no government assistance. Illegal immigration is a slap in the face to people like them!  It could be that you care about your fellow Americans, but you have been out of the trenches for a while, and have forgotten what it is like to be at the bottom of the economic food chain. I want you and everyone to understand: American workers are not lazy, uneducated, or greedy. They simply want to be paid a fair amount for their work and years of loyalty. People who state otherwise, perpetuate a lie, created to justify hiring cheaper labor. As our factories here in North Carolina, shut down and migrate to Mexico, we must remember this: statistics and rhetoric do not feed our children or pay our bills. Our southern border should be closed, illegal aliens should go, and our government should be traded in for a government that is helpful, and not intrusive….

Posted by Bobby on Feb 8, 2003 at 11:27 AM

A RESPONSE TO THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT BY A GOOD CHRISTIAN: I was citing the $3-5 dollar an hour job tax-free with no medical insurance and pension benefits to point out that the jobs illegal aliens take are jobs that most people don’t want to do: house cleaners, janitors, gardeners, bus boys, etc. I decided not to leave given the nonsense and hatred you guys post on this web site…............................YOU’RE REPEATING THE LIE: THAT WHITE OR BLACK PEOPLE DO NOT WORK THESE JOBS, AND THEY DO! IF THEY DO NOT STAY AT THESE JOBS, ITS BECAUSE THE EMPLOYERS WILL NOT PAY THEM FOR THEIR HARD WORK AND LOYALTY. I know people who work in these fields, right along side of their hispanic counterparts! Employers have no reason to give anyone a raise if they can hire someone to replace you for less. It just wrong! Its a lie!  And you’re repeating it as if its the truth! And once again: I don’t hate anyone, but I do hate what these people are doing to our country and our economy! You’re making some very broad generalizations about the problem, without being objective….......

Posted by Bobby on Feb 8, 2003 at 11:49 AM

The Census Bureau during the decennial census counts all people and does not ask questions about citizenship, permanent residence or legal status; in fact, as an incentive to get as many people as possible to fully participate in the decennial census counts, Congress made it illegal for the Census Bureau to report illegal aliens to the INS.  The government then checks the Census figures against records for citizenship and legal immigration.  That’s how they come up with the estimates for illegal immigration.  The INS and Census Bureau statistics are the most reliable data sources available.

The U.S. immigration laws (http://www.sru.edu/depts/artsci/ges/hughes/laws.htm) allow quotas of 20,000 people per country to immigrate legally.  That’s why the permanent residency and naturalization process are so difficult regardless of what country people come from.  This low quota is why people cheat and come here illegally.

If you want better pay than go to the root cause of the problem and focus on the management of the economy and the corporations and businesses that exploit illegal aliens and American workers.  Work for real campaign finance reform so that our government is not captive to corporate lobbies and special interests.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 8, 2003 at 12:01 PM

.....Census figures can be wrong. They have even been challenged in the courts. Even if you accept the figures as is, we still have a huge problem! We only have a limited number of resources available in America, a burgeoning deficit, record unemployment, and an expensive war pending; providing jobs and assistance to 3rd world refugees should not be a priority. I would love campaign finance control, but would love a secure southern border just as much. I’ll quit harping about deportation if you quit repeating the line about illegals taking jobs Americans don’t want. Americans are working the hard, dirty, jobs, and they don’t need any undercutting competition from illegal aliens! We can either close the border and deport illegals, or let racism grow into racial warfare! Stop the influx of aliens, Good Christian, and save their lives….....

Posted by Bobby on Feb 8, 2003 at 12:15 PM

My point is that illegal aliens are not a priority and not many resources are devoted to them relative to the size of government budgets and the U.S. economy.  The problems of our economy lie in who controls the government and how the economy is managed.  We can control our individual behavior and not resort to scapegoating, race wars and violence through vigilantism.  I don’t think Christ would condone that.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 8, 2003 at 12:48 PM

To MARIE form Phoenix, do you really think that, I’m gonna beg, in order that your country saves my freedom, I don’ want your nowadays nationalistic speeches, your Axe of Evil bullshit, the problem that you have AMERICANS, USA, is that you ‘re still thinking that you’ve got to save, the World, Hitler is dead, the II World War is over. In Europe we’ve caring about the development odf eastern countries, the EU en largment to the east goes in this direction. What about you, you have no social policy for your neighbouring southern countries, how can you then condemn the thousand of people willing to build a better future in your country, dind’t your ancestors havethe same dreams, they were as well a bunch of illegal analphabets.

Posted by Peace on the world. on Feb 8, 2003 at 1:31 PM

To: Victor from Colorado Springs, CO:

I strongly recommend you look up the latest figures from the US Army’s Office of Recruitment, where it is stated that minorities, i.e. Hispanics and Blacks, are vastly underrepresented in the US Army (I don’t know about the Navy or the AirForce but it should be true with them too).
In other words, If in our Army, the vast majority of soldiers is WHITE, that most likely will be even more true for the Canadian and Australian Armies, because for those two countries the percentage of non-whites is less than 10%.
So, instead of shooting off your mouth like any freaking bleeding heart liberal, you should consult the facts first.
This brings me back to all the wetbacks and their spawn.  They care more about using and abusing our generous system than to fight for our country.  The hispanic spawn cares more about belonging to street gangs than to pay back our country with loyalty and hard work.
I say again, let’s send all those pigs back to Mexico, or Central America.

Posted by Andres on Feb 8, 2003 at 3:37 PM

Pat Buchanan had the right idea.Build a wall on the Mexican border.Hell,I`d help lay the blocks myself! WITHOUT PAY OR MEDICAL INSURANCE!

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 8, 2003 at 4:10 PM

I read Phyllis Schlafly’s, “U.S. Social Security for Mexicans?  http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2003/jan03/03-01-15.shtml  In the article, she does not say how much illegal immigrants WOULD actually receive in Social Security benefits if Bush’s proposed legislation were to pass.  All that she says is: “This idea would be very costly to U.S. taxpayers.”  Notice how she uses the statistic that there are 5 million illegal Mexican immigrants in this country (1.8% of the total U.S. population of 281 million) and how she cites the Pew Hispanic Center and Inter-American Development Bank report that Mexicans send back $13 billion in remissions from pay from jobs here in the U.S. (0.13% of the $10 trillion U.S. economy).  Once again, your own references show that the actual impact of illegal immigration on the U.S. economy is not substantial.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 8, 2003 at 6:29 PM

Comparisons of the costs of securing the boarders to various degrees, from a full military presence to that which we have now with the border patrol, versus the cost of illegal immigration would be interesting.

Posted by wandering spirit on Feb 8, 2003 at 10:42 PM

A Good Pharisee who calls yourself a

Posted by Seen too many of your type on Feb 8, 2003 at 10:43 PM

A RESPONSE TO THIS STATEMENT WRITTEN BY ‘A GOOD CHRISTIAN’:We can control our individual behavior and not resort to scapegoating, race wars and violence through vigilantism. I don’t think Christ would condone that…....CAN WE? NOT FROM LOOKING AT THIS WHIPPING POST! It looks like there are a lot of angry people sick of lame arguements and often repeated rhetoric. I do think that ignoring the problem makes racism much worse; As to what God or Jesus might think, I will not guess. To do so is to usurp their judgement.        I do think that the mexican people would benefit from having a real country to live in. I think America would benefit from having a real government, instead of the garbage we’ve had for so many years…........

Posted by Bobby on Feb 9, 2003 at 12:16 AM

‘One more statistical point about the DeWeese article, “The Outrages of the Mexican Invasion”: the $10 billion dollar statistic he sites of Mexicans sending back to Mexico are remissions from Mexican immigrants both legal and illegal earned from their pay from jobs here in the U.S. That represents 0.10% of the $10 trillion U.S. economy’....from this whipping post, from a statement written by ‘a Good Christian’, God’s Authority on Immigration…..........YOU SEEM TO THINK THAT 10 BILLION DOLLARS IS NOTHING TO OUR ECONOMY; APPARENTLY, YOU ARE ALIEN YOURSELF, NOT FROM MEXICO, BUT FROM DEEP SPACE. CAN YOU GET ANYMORE REMOVED FROM REALITY? FORGET DEPORTING ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, LETS HAVE THE WHOLE DAMN MEXICAN POPULATION MOVE IN TO YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD! THEY CAN’T COME HERE, CUZ THERES NO ROOM IN THE INN OR THE MANGER! WE NEED TO FIND OUT WHAT YOU DO FOR A LIVING, SO WE CAN TRAIN YOU A LITTLE COMPETITION! THIS IS STUPID! THE IMPACT IS REAL! THE DAMAGE IS OBVIOUS, AND NO AMOUNT OF BULLSHIT WILL COVER IT ALL UP! YOU QUOTE ALL THE STATISTICS YOU WANT! IT MEANS NOTHING TO PEOPLE WHO ARE OUT OF WORK! IF YOU EVER FIGURE OUT A WAY TO FEED A CHILD WITH STATISTICS, A LOT OF UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE HERE IN NORTH CAROLINA WOULD LIKE TO KNOW!....................WE COULD SURE USE SOME OF THAT 10 BILLION DOLLARS IN OUR STATE!

Posted by Bobby on Feb 9, 2003 at 12:39 AM

To: A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law-A Good Christian in the USA

Tell us, Christian man, anywhere in The Bible that God instructs His people to allow themselves to be overrun by invaders. Point out to us where God says to let foreigners rule over His people. Enlighten us as to where God says to adopt the ways of other tribes. Tell us where God says His people should subordinate themselves to others in their own nation. Show us that you are espousing the true Biblical faith with Biblical quotes to defend your Biblical position.
Many thanks,
Paul White

Posted by Paul White on Feb 9, 2003 at 2:21 AM

to paul white: you have just damaged the credibility of the border vigilantes with your ridiculous raving.  not only have you lent credibility to the argument that these border militias and their supporters are composed of white supremacist zealots, but you have also indicated how poorly educated border militia supporters are.  Still confused? well this is how: Mexico and the majority of South America are predominantly Catholic countries.  They too follow your same God, a God who supposedly views all his creations equally, not some as “foreign invaders.” You believe that you are being “subordinated” to the people coming across the border (majority Latin American).  This statement is a clear indication of racist undertones driving the border campaign.  Because you believe that the people crossing the border should be less than you, you feel it is your place to make sure they stay in that position.  THIS IS CALLED RACISM!!!

Posted by n. on Feb 9, 2003 at 9:08 AM

To n. from texas, you

Posted by Seen too many of your type on Feb 9, 2003 at 10:06 AM

to real america, etc: your response in no way refutes my argument - but am i to understand that you do believe the bible supports the mis-treatment of latin americans based on ethnicity without any differentiation between ethnicity those that are criminal offenders (i.e. drugs, assault - i do not consider trepassing a serious offense based on the reasons i outlined in my previous 3 posts vis-a-vis based on economic, foreign policy, etc.).  As for my bible skills, put them down all you want, all you rednecks have used the bible for centuries to justify inhumane and reprehensible behavior (segregation being a prime example).  Your poor grasp of psychology is also evident - transference indicates transferring emotional or physical reactions attributed to a parent/child relationship.  Regardless, no I am not transferring racist beliefs to supporters of the border militia.  Your plane example is absurd and having an illegal immigrant live with me is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not border militias propagate racist beliefs.  And I referred to paul white as a border militia supporter, not a participant.  Please read carefully next time and try to use adequate logic.

Posted by n. on Feb 9, 2003 at 11:21 AM

To: n. on 2.9.03 | 10:08 am from texas

N, can’t you answer the questions in my post? After that, tell us how God and the Bible is hateful and white supremacist because the questions I posed concerning invasion are all answered in the Bible. One last question for you, N: Does the Bible say there should be no countries, no borders, and no sovereignty?

Laughing at you,
Paul White

Posted by Paul White on Feb 9, 2003 at 11:29 AM

to an easily amused paul white:  the beauty of america is that not everyone is required to be christian or bible scholars.  therefore, biblical arguments have no relevence the issue of illegal immigration and border militias other than that border militias and their supporters continuously manipulate the bible to strike chords of fear in weak-minded christians.  how about you actually try to refute my previous arguments concerning economic and forein policy issues outlined in previous 4 posts?
separation of church and state - read about it!

Posted by n. on Feb 9, 2003 at 11:35 AM

Mr. Seen Too Many of Your Type doesn’t cite his source for vigilantes supposedly saving Mexicans.  He knows “firsthand.”  We are supposed to trust him that he knows and that somehow this is the norm.  Sounds like he may be a participant in the vigilante border patrols, might have blood on his own hands and is in denial about his sins.  Maybe he should do as the Catholics and confess his sins.

Mr. Seen Too Many of Your Type then starts quoting the Old Testament quotes of vengeance.  He must be a disciple of the Pharisees.  Christian doctrine lies in the New Testament.  Learn to love your neighbor as you love yourself as Christ said.  Learn to be a Good Samaritan and not a hate monger.

Illegal immigration does not have a substantial impact in terms of the number of illegal aliens who come here, on government budgets, and the U.S. economy.  Your own sources even showed that.  What don’t you get that 0.10% - 2.9% are not SIGNIFICANT? They are extremely small percentages.  2.9% of illegal aliens are not taking away the jobs of 97.1% of the U.S. population.  $10 billion dollars is 0.10% of the $10 trillion U.S. economy.  You are arguing on pure emotion and not facts.

Your arguments boil down to two points: (1) you hate Mexicans; and (2) you blame Mexicans for the behavior of corporations and business leaders for exploiting and playing off illegal aliens and American workers against each other and the government for not criminalizing the penalties against companies who hire illegal aliens.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 11:44 AM

I NOTICED MR GRIJALVA DID NOT MENTION THE FACT ILLIGAL IMMIGRATION IS BREAKING THE LAWS OF U.S. IF OUR GOVT CAN’T STOP THEM SOMEONE HAS TO.I SUPPORT MR SIMCOX 100%

Posted by SUKYSAM YOSEMITY on Feb 9, 2003 at 12:01 PM

Wandering Spirit, I see you are back.  As usual, you pose interesting and insightful questions.  The current military budget is about $400 billion dollars, which is 18% of the U.S. Federal Budget of $2.2 trillion dollars (see 2002 IRS 1040 Instruction booklet’s Categories of Federal Income and Outlays for Fiscal Year 2001 on page 2).  That is second only to Social Security, Medicare and Other Retirement Benefits (36%) as far Federal Government spending priorities.  To guard the entire 1,500-mile border with the U.S. military would require either: (1) redeploying all U.S. troops domestically and abroad to the border area; or (2) dramatically expanding the military budget to increase troops and equipment to the border area.  I do not know what the costs would be for the latter option.  Obviously, past and current Congresses and Presidents have felt that the first option is not a priority given the U.S. global economic interests.  The second option would imply that now the impact on the U.S. budget would be significant as it would consume well over 18% of the federal budget and would take away resources from other budgetary priorities.  Realistically, I don’t think any Congress or President would decide either option is viable and worth it given the insignificant fiscal and economic impact of illegal immigration on this country.

What is likely to happen is that the border will continued to be patrolled by the Federal Government as it is done now.  At some point, the State of Arizona and Federal Government law enforcement agencies will get involved in the investigations of the border deaths especially if more bodies are found.  If they find that vigilantes are doing it, Federal agents will target, imprison and/or kill the white-supremacist militias in battle.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 12:22 PM

Legally, only Federal law enforcement agencies have the authority to enforce U.S. immigration laws.  Private citizens trying to enforce laws is vigilantism and is illegal.  The desert area in Arizona where Mexicans cross the border are public lands not private property; therefore, vigilantes would not have the right to kill supposedly for trespassing.  Only the Federal Government can enforce immigration laws in public lands.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 12:33 PM

“n” sez: to an easily amused paul white: the beauty of america is that not everyone is required to be christian or bible scholars. therefore, biblical arguments have no relevence the issue of illegal immigration and border militias other than that border militias and their supporters continuously manipulate the bible to strike chords of fear in weak-minded christians. how about you actually try to refute my previous arguments concerning economic and forein policy issues outlined in previous 4 posts?
separation of church and state - read about it!

To which Paul sez: You’re correct in that no one has to embrace the Biblical argument concerning immigration in the U.S., and likewise no one has to embrace any economic or foreign policy arguments concerning illegal immigration.

My original post was written to the moron proclaiming “Christian” arguments to justify enabling law breakers to have their way in this country, and you jumped in claiming “racism” and all manner of liberal hysteria. I don’t give a damn about your “economic and foreign policy” arguments. That’s not what I addressed in my post.

Also, did you attempt to castigate your Christian moron buddy over his religious beliefs to accept illegal immigration? I thought not, you hypocrite. Seprartion of church and state, dontcha know.

Still laughing,
Paul White

Posted by Paul White on Feb 9, 2003 at 12:45 PM

Aren’t love, compassion, tolerance and charity Christian values?  Are humanity’s laws higher than God’s will?  Paul White and Mr. Seen Too Many of Your Type are the hypocrites spewing hate in the name of the Lord.  They will have their reckoning with the Lord come judgment day.

When someone has no argument, they resort to profanity and character assassination.  I will not evaluate your intelligence based on your poor debating skills.  I believe that everyone has the capacity to learn through education and the Lord forgives all sins.  Take advantage of the educational opportunities in this country and pray to the Lord that he may cleanse your soul of hate.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 1:07 PM

A good Christian in the USA sez:  Aren’t love, compassion, tolerance and charity Christian values? Are humanity’s laws higher than God’s will? Paul White and Mr. Seen Too Many of Your Type are the hypocrites spewing hate in the name of the Lord. They will have their reckoning with the Lord come judgment day.

When someone has no argument, they resort to profanity and character assassination. I will not evaluate your intelligence based on your poor debating skills. I believe that everyone has the capacity to learn through education and the Lord forgives all sins. Take advantage of the educational opportunities in this country and pray to the Lord that he may cleanse your soul of hate.
Posted by: A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on 2.9.03 | 2:07 pm from A Good Christian in the USA

To which Paul sez: What’s the matter, A Good Christian? Why won’t you address my legitimate questions to you concerning illegal immigrants? What is hateful about citing Biblical doctrine to refute your supposedly Christian argument? I can support my position with Biblical citations, can you?

Anxiously awaiting your reply,
A good Christian named Paul White

Posted by Paul White on Feb 9, 2003 at 1:20 PM

Paul White: Anxiously awaing for you to cite the NEW TESTAMENT to support your hatred of Mexicans.  Where in the NEW TESTAMENT does it say that humanity’s laws are higher than God’s will?

Jews use the OLD TESTAMENT for spiritual guidance.  Are you Jewish or are you Christian?

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 1:33 PM

Paul White: you never cited any Biblical citations.  Mr.  Seen Too Many of Your Type Before cited the OLD TESTAMENT.  I guess you just outed yourself as Mr. Seen Too Many of Your Type as well as being a Jewish fundamentalist (as a literal interpreter of the OLD Testament).  You were a hypocrite calling me a Pharisee, yet it is you who is the Jewish fundamentalist citing OLD TESTAMENT passages of war and vengeance.  If you are really a Christian, you might have self-hate problems as a Jewish fundamentalist.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 1:50 PM

A Good Christian sez:  Paul White: Anxiously awaing for you to cite the NEW TESTAMENT to support your hatred of Mexicans. Where in the NEW TESTAMENT does it say that humanity’s laws are higher than God’s will?

Jews use the OLD TESTAMENT for spiritual guidance. Are you Jewish or are you Christian?
Posted by: A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on 2.9.03 | 2:33 pm from A Good Christian in the USA

To which Paul sez: Who is stooping to character assasination? Point out anywhere that I’ve even intimated a “hatred of Mexicans”. I do not have any use for criminal opportunists.

I am a Christian who believes in the whole Bible, not conveniently just one part. Indeed, where does it say that human laws are higher than God’s laws? That’s what I’m asking you.

Here are my questions to you, again:

Where is it in The Bible that God instructs His people to allow themselves to be overrun by invaders. Point out to us where God says to let foreigners rule over His people. Enlighten us as to where God says to adopt the ways of other tribes. Tell us where God says His people should subordinate themselves to others in their own nation. Does the Bible say there should be no countries, no borders, and no sovereignty?

I asked if you could support your position with Biblical references. So far, you have avoided doing so.

Still waiting,
Paul White

Posted by Paul White on Feb 9, 2003 at 2:37 PM

Still waiting for you to answer: Are love, compassion, tolerance and charity Christian values?  Do you hate Mexicans?  Where in the New Testament does it say hate is acceptable?  Where in the New Testament does it say that human laws are higher than God’s will?  I don’t follow the OLD TESTAMENT as I am not Jewish.

By the way, U.S. immigration laws are Federal administrative laws not criminal laws.  Violation of administrative laws are illegal acts and those who violate immigration laws are illegal aliens not criminals.  We’ve had that discussion before.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 2:54 PM

To A Believer of the Law?  No, Americans don’t hate Mexicans, it’s just the blatant enormous INFLUX of illegal MIGRATION, whether it be Mexicans or whoever.  You seem to be a smart person, can’t you figure it out?  Are you an American?

Posted by marie on Feb 9, 2003 at 3:00 PM

Define an enourmous influx?  5-8 million illegal aliens out of the total U.S. population of 281 million (2.9%) is not an “enourmous infux.”  It is an extremely small minority.  Why is that so hard to understand?  I am against blaming all our problems on illegal immigration when it doesn’t have a significant fiscal and economic impact.

Yes, I am an American.  I accept the legitimacy of U.S. immigration laws; I have no problem with deporting illegal aliens when they are caught.  But, only the U.S. government has the legal authority to enforce U.S. immigration laws.  Private-citizen militias trying to enforce U.S. immigration laws is vigilantism and illegal.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 3:21 PM

Immigration Insanity

October 29, 2002

By Peyton Knight

Following the killing spree alleged to be the act of John Muhammed and his associate, Lee Malvo, Americans learned that the teenager was an illegal alien, originally from Jamaica. Moreover, early indications suggest that Muhammed was engaged in the smuggling of illegal aliens into this nation.

Largely unknown to most Americans is the large percentage of the nation’s incarcerated criminal population representing the failure of those agencies responsible to protect this nation against the dangers posed by illegal aliens.

From the time you woke this morning to the time you go to sleep tonight, 10,000 illegal aliens will have flooded into the United States from and through Mexico. Tomorrow, the same will happen. In the past 7 years, the estimated number of illegal aliens residing in the U.S. has grown from 5 million to between 9 and 11 million.

In any given day, roughly one-third of the immigrants penetrating our borders will be nabbed by authorities, returned, only to try again the next day or even within the next few hours. It

Posted by vern on Feb 9, 2003 at 4:03 PM

Immigration Insanity

October 29, 2002

By Peyton Knight

Clearly, if a nation is to exist, it must have borders

Posted by vern on Feb 9, 2003 at 4:08 PM

Immigration Insanity

October 29, 2002

By Peyton Knight

Hospitals, too, are required by law to treat any illegal alien that shows up for medical care. Of course, the little issue of “who pays for these unaccountable treatments” is not covered in this law. As a result, many hospitals along the border between the U.S. and Mexico have either been forced to close their doors or are facing severe financial crises as mandatory healthcare treatment to illegal aliens gobbles up their resources.

At a time when America is under attack by Islamist holy warriors, the Census Bureau estimates that there are currently as many as 115,000 illegal immigrants from Middle Eastern countries living in the United States. In addition, there are over 400,000 illegal immigrants who continue to live in the U.S. despite having received orders from judges to be deported.

Both the Democrat and Republican parties are busy climbing over one another in an effort to win over the Hispanic voting bloc at the expense of sound immigration policy and national security. One congressman has put forth a bill that will solve many of the problems we currently face with illegal immigration in this country. Rep. George Gekas (R-PA) has introduced H.R. 5013, the “Securing America

Posted by vern on Feb 9, 2003 at 4:12 PM

To A Good Christian in the USA.
Mr.Simcox and his followers have every right to detain illegals.  They are not enforcing any laws.  They are detaining them and handing them to the proper authorities.

Posted by JAG 45 CAl on Feb 9, 2003 at 4:37 PM

Vern from NJ: thanks for proving my point with the Peyton Knight articles and statistics.  One in seven California inmates being illegal aliens is 14.3% of the total California prison population, a minority, which would imply that the vast majority of illegal aliens are law abiding in terms of California criminal laws.  The $500 million cost for incarcerating illegal aliens in the U.S. is 0.02% of the $2.2 trillion Federal budget.  The $1.6 billion in cost to public education for illegal aliens is 0.07% of the $2.2 trillion Federal budget.  The combined health care and public education cost of $5 billion for illegal aliens is 0.23% of the $2.2 trillion Federal budget.  All of these costs combined at less than 1% of the Federal budget!  One of the Knight articles now places the range of illegal aliens in the 9-11 million range.  That is 3.9% of the U.S. population of 281 million.  As I’ve said all along, the fiscal and economic impacts are not significant.

So far we have had the John Malvo sniper case (not clear if he ever crossed the border from Mexico or overstayed a visa, which is more likely givent that he was from Jamaica) and Sept. 11th (the terrorists did not cross the border on this one).  That does not mean there is no terrorist threat at all regarding crossing the border.  I think the U.S. government has been doing a pretty good job since 9/11: no terrorist attacks on U.S. soil.

The Knight articles were strong on emotion, but little substance.  The Supreme Court was just upholding the Constitution.  Democracy is not perfect, but it’s the best system we have.  You guys underestimate how difficult it is to patrol a 1,500 mile border and the job of regulating millions of people coming through the airports and ports.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 5:05 PM

It is not legal for citizens to detain anyone because you are impeding people’s (citizens or not) freedom of movement and only law enforcement agencies have that authority.  Illegal aliens have due process rights, but not all of the same rights under the Constitution.  Only U.S. immigration law enforcement officials have the right to detain illegal aliens.

After the State of Arizona and Federal law enforcement authorites investigate, the facts will be set straight after searching for more evidence.  Local law enforcement jumped to a huge conclusion that coyotes did it just because the victims had previous immigration violations without anyone being caught in the act, without any weapons being recovered or any ballistic evidence.  For all we know, the Arizona and the Federal Government may already be surveilling these white supremacist militias and the investigations may have already started.  The Arizona and Federal law enforcement officials may be keeping a low profile so that they don’t compromise the investigations.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 5:31 PM

It would be illegal for private citizens to detain people’s movement because they do not have the authority to ask suspected illegal aliens for evidence of citizenship or permanent residence.  Only U.S. immigration officials have that authority.  The Constitution protects against arbitrary imprisonment and searches and seizure.  You cannot assume that because of skin color and location someone is an illegal alien.  That is discrimination based on race and national origin, which is a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 5:42 PM

In response to Mr. G.C.‘s response:
“...Define an enourmous influx? 5-8 million illegal aliens out of the total U.S. population of 281 million (2.9%) is not an “enourmous infux.” It is an extremely small minority. Why is that so hard to understand? I am against blaming all our problems on illegal immigration when it doesn’t have a significant fiscal and economic impact…”
Oh, really? Granted if those millions were spread out and absorbed amongst the 281 million, I suppose there would be a minimal-to-none impact, but that’s not the case. Most illegal’s settle in urban areas for a variety of reasons- established communities, anonymity, a “safe haven” city, etc.. This puts undue stress and strain on social services, education, medical services, etc. The Federal, State and local governments have failed to come up with any coherent program to adjust the financial burden- except make the taxpayer dig deeper. Housing, transportation, law enforcement, energy—it adds up. Being in “the service” for 18 years , I can cite statistics until “the Second Coming”, but we also deal in probability (impact studies) and the outcome is economically grim- especially for the working and middle class.  Ironically, the only positive outcome to this influx has been the increase in certain church parishes (read: Catholic churches). I’ve seen my former parish membership increase 500% in the last 5 years. Of course, the language of the Mass coincides with the influx.  Some parish Masses are totally in Spanish. Yep- Christianity just might become a good business to take stock in afterall.

Posted by vern on Feb 9, 2003 at 5:44 PM

To: A Good Christian in the USA

The common law term for it is “Citizens Arrest”.  And to my knowledge it is permissible in every state except MA.  It is allowed for the crime of trespass.  Another intresting point…  Last week in Grand Rapids MI. , a bank patron chased down and detained a bank robbery “suspect”.  The bank cutomer was not charged.  In fact he was congratulated by law enforcement, though they were quick to add, they didn’t reccomend citizens attempt such things.  Like immigration, bank robberey is a federal government matter.

Posted by JAG 45 CAl on Feb 9, 2003 at 5:49 PM

BTW, if you want to figure out how people like Mr. G.C. and n from Texas are easily convinced by statistics; or if you are just curious about how the government and other “think tanks"arrives at their dubious numbers, read “How To Lie With Statistics” by Darrell Huff and “Probability, Statistics And Truth” by Richard von Mises.

Posted by vern on Feb 9, 2003 at 5:52 PM

A Good Christian in the USA

You should also note that the Constitution restricts the powers of the federal gov.  Not the citizens.

Posted by JAG 45 CAl on Feb 9, 2003 at 5:53 PM

Citizens’ arrests pertain to criminal law.  Bank robbery is a Federal crime.  U.S. immigration laws are Federal administrative law.  Only U.S. immigration officials have the right to detain illegal aliens and ask for citizenship or permanent residence documentation.  The Civil Rights Act of 1964 applies to citizens.

Vern, my statistical methodology was pretty straight forward: divide the figures you provided by the U.S. federal budget.  California is the state with the most illegal aliens.  Forty percent of Mexican illegal aliens are in California.  The $79 million in health care costs for illegal aliens represents 0.12% of California’s $65.8 billion in general tax revenues.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 6:09 PM

The Good Christian fellow sez:  Still waiting for you to answer: Are love, compassion, tolerance and charity Christian values? Do you hate Mexicans? Where in the New Testament does it say hate is acceptable? Where in the New Testament does it say that human laws are higher than God’s will? I don’t follow the OLD TESTAMENT as I am not Jewish.

By the way, U.S. immigration laws are Federal administrative laws not criminal laws. Violation of administrative laws are illegal acts and those who violate immigration laws are illegal aliens not criminals. We’ve had that discussion before.

To which Paul sez: Well, since we seem to have reached a Mexican stand-off, I don

Posted by Paul White on Feb 9, 2003 at 7:09 PM

Paul White: I am glad you don’t hate Mexicans if that is the truth.  It is a demonstration of love, compassion and charity to tolerate an insignificant amount of poor illegal immigrants given that it does not have a significant fiscal and economic impact on this country.

As I have aready told you, I don’t suscribe to the OLD TESTAMENT and its passages of war and revenge.  Why did you feel it was character assassination because I asked you if you were Jewish given that you are a literal interpreter of the Old Testament?  Do you hate Jews?  I don’t.

The Mexican goverment and its 100 million people are not invading, occupying and over-running this country.  Annually, on a daily basis 10,000 poor Mexican nationals cross the border looking for work (365,000 per year).  The highest estimate provided by the Knight article is that there are 11 million illegal immigrants, which is 3.9% of the U.S. population of 281 million.  Therefore, you are making a moot point.

I never said that there should not be any countries, borders and sovereignty.  I accept the legitimacy of U.S. immigration laws; I have no problem with deporting illegal aliens when they are caught. But, only the U.S. government has the legal authority to enforce U.S. immigration laws. Private-citizen militias trying to enforce U.S. immigration laws is vigilantism and illegal.  Only U.S. immigration officials have the right to detain illegal aliens and ask for citizenship or permanent residence documentation.  Illegal aliens have due process rights.  Citizens’ arrests pertain to criminal law and U.S. immigration laws are Federal administrative law.  You cannot assume that because of skin color and geography that someone is an illegal alien. That is discrimination based on race and national origin, which is a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.  Again, you are making a moot point.

Democracy, it’s not pretty, but it the best system we have.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 7:58 PM

In response to G.C.:
“...Vern, my statistical methodology was pretty straight forward: divide the figures you provided by the U.S. federal budget. California is the state with the most illegal aliens. Forty percent of Mexican illegal aliens are in California. The $79 million in health care costs for illegal aliens represents 0.12% of California’s $65.8 billion in general tax revenues.”
Yes, it’s very basic, but too basic when dealing with social services.
And that’s what we deal with.Quantitative data is difficult enough. It’s continuous in the case of the illegal alien population. Was $79 million for health care and associated service ? What about other services- housing, education,law enforcement,etc. ? One of the problems associated with staistical measurement is data collection. With the illegal alien population it’s like looking at an ice cube and guessing how many drops of water there are. So we take a chip and use various samples (random, cluster, systematic, etc.) Each State or municipality has a different sized cube. I won’t bore you with the complexity of our methods, but the bottom line is our system is broken. Economically, we’re in for a tough time. Primarily because of illegal immigration ? Outwardly, no. But as the infrastructure is “hollowed out”, the system will collapse incrementally. Witness public housing: what started out as a noble alternative to transient housing for the working middle class ended up costing more to sustain, breeding a whole new set of “unintended consequences” (crime, poverty, isolation).And let’s not mention the “Great Society” failurres of the ‘60’s ! Now the government is getting out of the business. Let’s not wait 40 years for the government to screw up again. 

Posted by vern on Feb 9, 2003 at 8:04 PM

To Mr. Good Christian:
  There are an estimated 400,000 Mexicans living in the state of North Carolina.The vast majority of these are illegal.I live in a small town in N.C. called Marion.We have our share of Mexicans living here.But compared to the large majority of citizens,the crime rate for Mexicans is very high.About every time we pick up the local news paper,there are several Hispanic names on the court docket.Ther have been several killings by Hispanics.So far it`s been a case of one Hispanic killing another.We have had several cases of Hispanics breaking and entering,and theft.We had the largest drug bust in McDowell County history.A Mexican was caught with over 300 pounds of weed in his vehicle.Two weeks later,another Mexican was caught with over 200 pounds of weed.And we have had a shit load of traffic violations by Hispanics.In our small town of Marion,every time you see a Hispanic woman,she will have an average of two to three kids with another on the way.I`m told they don`t believe in birth control.Let them pay their own damned medical costs,and they will believe in it!No wonder they already out-number black people as the largest minority.Maybe people like Good Christian will wake up when they find their ass in a soup line!

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 9, 2003 at 8:23 PM

Yes Vern, you are right.  It is always about estimating and data collection is difficult.  But, the data also includes usage of service by citizens and legal residents, which is deducted in trying to figure out extent used by illegal aliens; the documentation for citizens and legal residents are much easier to come by.  Even so, research the existing figures (because that’s all we have to go by), state by state and county by county and you still find that there might be strain on the system, but illegal immigration is not the major cause of all of society’s social ills.

Illegal aliens are not eligible for public housing and Section 8.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 9, 2003 at 8:25 PM

  And,by the way,if Good Christian doesn`t believe what I said about the crimes by Hispanics in Marion,he can call Criminal records in Marion at 1-828-652-7717 EXT.204.But hell he will probably say the records are wrong,and give his own liberal slant.

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 9, 2003 at 8:28 PM

I pity the next generation of children; my daughter, will have to compete with the CHILDREN of illegal aliens for all the things in America that matter, especially if you’re not rich: tuition, grants, housing, loans, jobs, and any government assistance. She’s not a racist, and neither am I. Time and again, I have raised the question, why are these people allowed to come here? I really believe that poverty feeds racism; mexican immigrants now have filled up the factories where black and white citizens used to work. The will not speak our language, and the schools in this state have our children learning spanish(we even have a ‘hispanic PTA’, separate, but equal to the real one). I do not believe anyone who has money or who is not directly affected by illegal aliens filling up their community, can understand what this is like. Its not racial problem, its an economic one….....My ancestors were likely english, german, and/or french, but they learned the language, paid the fees, paid their taxes, and took pride in the fact that became Americans; not German-Americans or any other such nonsense! Americans! They wanted to join the melting pot, and blend in, and become accepted as a fellow American. Being an American back then was something special;  it didn’t matter who you are or where you came from, you were an American now, and that entitled you to rights many of your ancestors never had…...the immigrants we have now do not want to join the melting pot, have no interest in using our language, they really don’t even want to be Americans, they just want to come here and take whatever they can get, and to hell with the rest of us if we don’t like. The people living on our border detaining illegals are doing the only thing they can do short of shooting the poor bastards and going to jail themself. Like the rest of America, they have been betrayed by their government, but have decided not to go along with this madness any longer. Try to be objective when you try to pass judgement on them…..............

Posted by bobby on Feb 9, 2003 at 10:17 PM

A Good Christian Fellow sez:  Paul White: I am glad you don’t hate Mexicans if that is the truth. It is a demonstration of love, compassion and charity to tolerate an insignificant amount of poor illegal immigrants given that it does not have a significant fiscal and economic impact on this country.

~~Had to snip some for posting limitations.

The Mexican goverment and its 100 million people are not invading, occupying and over-running this country. Annually, on a daily basis 10,000 poor Mexican nationals cross the border looking for work (365,000 per year). The highest estimate provided by the Knight article is that there are 11 million illegal immigrants, which is 3.9% of the U.S. population of 281 million. Therefore, you are making a moot point.

I never said that there should not be any countries, borders and sovereignty. I accept the legitimacy of U.S. immigration laws; I have no problem with deporting illegal aliens when they are caught. But, only the U.S. government has the legal authority to enforce U.S. immigration laws. Private-citizen militias trying to enforce U.S. immigration laws is vigilantism and illegal. Only U.S. immigration officials have the right to detain illegal aliens and ask for citizenship or permanent residence documentation. Illegal aliens have due process rights. Citizens’ arrests pertain to criminal law and U.S. immigration laws are Federal administrative law. You cannot assume that because of skin color and geography that someone is an illegal alien. That is discrimination based on race and national origin, which is a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Again, you are making a moot point.

Democracy, it’s not pretty, but it the best system we have.

To which Paul sez:  I was going to respond to your post sentence by sentence, but I realize that there is no point in doing so.

I regret to say that I honestly believe you

Posted by Paul White on Feb 10, 2003 at 12:13 AM

bobby, i pity your daughter too.  she is being brought up by a father that will teach her that someone else is at fault for what she does not acheive.  she will never compete with illegal aliens for grants and scholarships because only legal citizens are eligible for these educational incomes. yet her father will tell her, as i’m sure many already are, that the reason she can’t get the grant or scholarship is because of all the damned hispanics (a term referring to anyone of spanish descent, legal or illegal, but that clearly doesn’t matter to you as you’re willing to make snap judgements based on skin color).  instead of teaching her that educational funds are constantly being minimized while the military is being maximized, you will teach her to lament learning a second language.  those europeans have it real bad, they usually learn 2-3 in public school.  instead of teaching her to learn from other cultures, you will teach her to notice the differences and make them wrong.  i agree that people serious about making a life in the united states should learn the language, but instead of constantly loathing in self-pity, consider the situations of others.  they probably have an alternate PTA held in spanish (a language, hispanic refers extremely loosely to ethnicity) so that spanish speaking parents, often working several jobs, most often legal, can participate in their child’s education so that their child may learn english, stay in school, and stay out of trouble.  they also probably have a severe mistrust of people and goverment based on experiences from which they are running.  i know because i have volunteered for these efforts for several years now.  i applaud G.C.‘s effort are using objective facts to make a strong argument, but it has become evident to me that people have become so self-centered as to have lost the ability to consider other’s situations and how the very people that kick and scream directly and indirectly exacerbate the situation.  i agree that people will eventually reach a fever point and rather than take on their government, whom they neither trust nor have power over, they will turn to the easiest target. how unfortunate that even living in the most free country in the world is not enough to help people to work together instead of against each other, no matter what color, race, or nationality.

Posted by n on Feb 10, 2003 at 12:19 AM

bobby writes:  I pity the next generation of children; my daughter, will have to compete with the CHILDREN of illegal aliens for all the things in America that matter, especially if you’re not rich: tuition, grants, housing, loans, jobs, and any government assistance.

~~~snipped an excellent post for bandwidth

Posted by: bobby on 2.9.03 | 11:17 pm from In north carolina, in what used to be America….

To which Paul replies: You nailed the problem with your first sentence, bobby. What are we leaving for the next generation of American kids? I have two children, and I will not abandon the American dream for them, especially to a bunch of illegal invaders. That’s not what my forefathers fought this nations wars for—to leave this country to a bunch of opportunist Mexicans. We have overpopulation in the larger cities, pollution, water shortages out West, power shortages out West, and shortages of social services, not to mention a public debt being inflated by illegals. And add to that competition for future jobs, etc, that you outlined above, and you’ve got to ask: how is this serving the next generation of Americans? Don’t we give a damn about what we leave for our children?

Regards,
Paul

Posted by Paul White on Feb 10, 2003 at 12:32 AM

  Our politicians are the ones who are going to have to put a stop to all these illegal leaches coming into the U.S.It`s obvious that they are not going to listen to a few phone calls and letters.Unless the American people unite and make our voices heard as one,then we had might as well accept the invasion we see now.If the futures of our children are as important as we say,then how can we sit in front of a computer typing letters to liberal morons who don`t know shit from apple butter?We won`t get anywhere this way.What these people say doesn`t matter anyway.We need to organize,and stick together.Maybe a million-man march on Washington would be a start.They have marches about everything else.Why not a march for the future of our children and country?People could schedule vacations to go.Hell,the way the unemployment rate is now,a lot of people wouldn`t even need a vacation!We should work together to get the word out.Otherwise,like I said,it doesn`t matter how many letters we send on the net,arguing back and forth.The illegal blood suckers continue to come in .

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 10, 2003 at 6:21 AM

n. from texas, YOU don

Posted by Seen too many of your type on Feb 10, 2003 at 9:17 AM

To Mike Callahan from NC:  Right On!!  Okay, how can we organize the march, we need to do this, let Bush hear our voice, right?

Posted by Marie on Feb 10, 2003 at 11:41 AM

TO:  Peace on the World!  You said that “America is trying to save the world”; you asked me how I could condemn thousands of people willing to build a better future in my country; you mentioned my ancestors being illegal alphabets!!  Ha!  To begin with, I am Native American, my ancestors own this land before you ever came here or “wanted” to come here.  Secondly, America doesn’t want to save the world.  That heavy responsibility it thrown upon our shoulders, and we do it whether we want to or not, has Maastricht saved any worlds lately?  And lastly, I never claimed to condemn anyone.  Let them all come (illegal or legal immigrants)!  Why don’t we just leave the gates open and let them all in?  Maybe then our government will do something about this problem. They’ll (illegal immigrants) come anyway, whether we like it or not.  Foreigners don’t care what we Americans think, you don’t call that “blatant”?  I guess that’s why some very concerned people which others call vigilantes have formed.

Posted by Marie on Feb 10, 2003 at 12:03 PM

So much shit in here. Just blame Mexicans for everything… we just don’t learn from past mistakes. When or IF you stupid extremists see the reality of the world it’ll be too fucking late, you idiots. It’s just easy to be there spewing hate, anger and “economic” racism to all of us third world United States americans.

Posted by Sulay on Feb 10, 2003 at 2:39 PM

  For Sulay in New York:
  You prove my point. If any one is against ILLEGAL immigration,you brand them as racist,extremists,bigots or vigilantes.If someone doesn`t agree with the homosexual life style,you have a name for them,too.Homophobes.If someone is pro-life,that person is a woman hater.Speaking of bull shit!People like you think we should sit by and let ILLEGALS continue to rape our country.Yes,we should help other countries out,but this is beyond extreme.I know people who have worked in the U.S. all their lives,and can`t get help from the government.My mother-in-law has had serious medical problems for the past five years,and her medical insurance will be to the limit soon.She doesn`t know what she will do after that.All a damned ILLEGAL Mexican has to do is whip out a medicaid card,and it`s all taken care of.This is a big reason they can continue to breed like rabbits.How can this be fair to American citizens?You have it wrong,Sulay.By the time people like Good Christian and yourself learn,it will be"too fucking late”!

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 10, 2003 at 3:49 PM

For Marie in Phoenix:
  I am working to find out exactly how to get people to organize a “Million-Person March”.There are ways to do it.Like I said,something has to be done.I don`t condone violence,no matter what some people might say[you know the one`s I`m talking about].But we could have a peaceful demonstration.Most people feel the same as we do,but there will be a few liberal morons who will still be for giving the country away.Talk to anyone you know in Arizona,and help me get the ball rolling.Get the word out.You people in Arizona have a lot of people who agree with you. I would give you my e-mail address,but I don`t want to give it here.I`ll send it to you in a letter.Write back on here,and give me your mailing address.My address is below.Any one else reading this who cares about the futures of your children and country please give your ideas.

      Mike Callahan
      162 Woodrun Drive
      Marion,N.C. 28752

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 10, 2003 at 4:09 PM

The main sources that the border patrol vigilantes are white supremacists are the Southern Poverty Law Center (http://www.splcenter.org/splc.html) and the Border Action Network (http://www.resistmilitarization.org/mapping.htm), which issued research reports on the backgrounds of the leadership of the vigilante groups.  It is documented in Arrieta’s article as well as in the Arizona Republic (http://www.arizonarepublic.com/special03/articles/1218vigilante18.html).

Actually, if you had bothered to READ the INS reports on illegal immigration (http://www.ins.usdoj.gov/graphics/aboutins/statistics/illegalalien/ ; http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20030131-9999_1n31immig.html) you would have noticed that 69% of illegal immigrants are Mexicans.  The high INS estimate for all illegal immigrants is 8 million.  The Knight article placed the figure at 11 million, which means that there are between 5.5 and 7.7 million illegal Mexicans, 32% of whom live in California (1.8– 2.5 million is 7.5% of California’s population of 33 million).  Therefore, you have between 3.3 and 4.7 million illegal Mexicans living in the rest of the 49 states (4.7 million is 1.7% of the U.S. population of 281 million).  Seven states account for 73 percent of illegal aliens: California, Texas, New York, Illinois, Florida, Arizona and Georgia.  By the way Callahan, North Carolina has 206,000 illegal aliens, which is 2.6% of North Carolina’s population of 8 million.

5.5 to 7.7 million Mexicans living in this country is 5.5% – 7.7% of the Mexican population of 100 million, which is a SMALL minority; in other words, it is NOT SIGNIFICANT.  Legally, an invasion refers to military forces entering the borders of another country to occupy that country and take over its government.  Illegal immigration means individual foreign nationals entering the borders to illegally reside and work in that country.  You white supremacists are just not the brightest crayons in the box.  Statistics and law are over your head!

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 11, 2003 at 7:01 AM

Correction: After deducting the 1.8 - 2.5 million illegal Mexicans in California, you have between 3.7 and 5.2 illegal Mexicans living in the rest of the United States.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 11, 2003 at 7:15 AM

TO Mike Callahan from NC:  Thanks, I will write and have an idea.

Posted by Marie on Feb 11, 2003 at 8:22 AM

Pharisee who calls yourself a christian, I couldn

Posted by Seen too many of your type on Feb 11, 2003 at 9:24 AM

This illegal immigration problem really irks me.  Why can’t the US gov’t do something to halt this?

Posted by Leslie on Feb 11, 2003 at 5:48 PM

To Sulay from New York:  You called yourself a “THIRD WORLD United States american”.  Enlighten me, what is that?  The United States is not a third world.  And if you were an American, why are you referring to yourself as “third world”?  You also sound like you don’t like Americans, so why are in you America?

Posted by Leslie on Feb 11, 2003 at 5:57 PM

The evidence in the 1/6/03 article by Susan Carroll in the Arizona Republic, “Series of Killings Tied to People-Smuggling” amounts to one victim with documents indicating he was a coyote and two more victims whose relatives said that they couldn’t send them more money before they lost contact with them (that hardly proves coyotes killed them).  There was no mention of the other six victims.  There were no witnesses to the murders, no one was caught and no evidence tying all the murders together.  Further investigations are warranted by Arizona and Federal law enforcement officials.  Border Action Network’s report, “Hate or Heroism: Vigilantes on the Arizona-Mexico Border,” is not posted on their web site.  Call them to get a copy of it.

I do not justify nor condone an illegal alien entering a rancher’s private property especially if that illegal alien tries to commit a violent or property crime; legally, that rancher is within his rights to protect his property and life against trespassing.

However, I do condemn ARMED vigilantes patrolling the border trying to illegally detain illegal aliens in desert public lands.  Only U.S. immigration law-enforcement officials have the legal authority to detain and ask illegal aliens for evidence of citizenship and permanent residence on public lands as U.S. immigration laws are Federal administrative laws; therefore, citizens’ arrests do not apply given that they pertain to criminal law.  Actually, citizens’ arrests related to enforcing civil and administrative laws are both a crime (kidnapping) and an illegal act in civil law (false imprisonment).

The border is 1,500 miles long covering the States of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.  That is not a small area (it is half the length of the United States!) and the entire border is not composed of private ranches.  Moreover, none of the tragic articles that you cite regarding illegal aliens committing crimes on ranchers’ private property explain to what extent that is happening; they are just stories of individual incidents.  The norm is most likely that illegal aliens are crossing the border in isolated desert public lands in order to avoid the border patrol and private ranchers given how few incidents there have been regarding trespassing on ranchers’ private property.  That’s why between 5.5 and 7.7 million Mexican illegal aliens have successfully made it into the United States.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 11, 2003 at 7:52 PM

By the way, if the illegal alien population is estimated to be between 8 and 11 million and 69% are Mexican, that means that between 2.5 and 3.4 million are not Mexican (31%), not 1.8 million.  Statistics are really not that difficult.

As I’ve said before, the problem with this country is that only 15.5% of the population have college degrees and only 8.9% have graduate or professional degrees (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U&geo_id=01000US&qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1).  In this information age and knowledge-based economy, the uneducated (75.6% of the U.S. population, 3 out 4 people!) are falling further behind in the economic race in this competitive global economy.  Go back to school (married people with kids do go to college you know and there is also such a thing as night school).  We expect welfare moms to get jobs, take care of their kids, get educated, and escape poverty all at the same time.  Why can’t poor or struggling white blue-collar workers do the same?  Stop blaming an insignificant number of illegal immigrants (less than 4% of the U.S. population of 281 million) for insufficient educational attainment in this country and Corporate America’s management of the economy and control over the Federal Government.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 11, 2003 at 8:07 PM

In response to G.C.:
“...Yes Vern, you are right. It is always about estimating and data collection is difficult. But, the data also includes usage of service by citizens and legal residents, which is deducted in trying to figure out extent used by illegal aliens;... illegal immigration is not the major cause of all of society’s social ills.
Illegal aliens are not eligible for public housing and Section 8…”

When the Federal government allocates money to the State, the State inturn allocates money to the local countys and the county’s to the municipalities. States receive money for fiscal years only and each year they must submit budget proposals for their social services. Typically, with little public knowledge (because the public normally doesn’t question the States budget), the amount of money needed is overinflated. This also follows true with the county and municipal budgets. This is justified, they say, because of the great influx—and burden—of illegal aliens, in particular, and the services required to assist this “special” population. If the locals can’t get significant State aid, the money must come from the taxpayers. Why? Simple—- lawsuits. In safe haven cities like New York, where questioning one’s legal status are forbidden when social services are sought, lawsuits have forced the City to house anyone and everyone who seeks shelter and associated services. Becasue shelters are unsafe the City has continually rented from private sources, such as hotels and motels, at the average cost of $3,000 per month per family ! No matter how you look at , there is a significant impact, especially in New York wherre the cost of living is higher than in, say, North Carolina. But fiscal impact is relative no matter where you live—every State has a fiscal budget. If G.C., n from Texas and Sulay from New York (I doubt that) would like to see the impact, go to the New York State website and read FY 2002, for instance. (Too much info for here) Get rid of the heart on your sleeve and deal with reality ! This ain’t the love and peace ‘60’s anymore, folks ! (Thank God !). BTW to Mike Callahan. You might want to try and forward your address and idea to the pro-immigration control websites.

Posted by vern on Feb 11, 2003 at 8:51 PM

To G.C.:
Try not to attack people based on their, in your opinion, “blue-collar” status. You’re showing your ignorance which is what you’re accusing other’s of doing. I earned my under grad and graduate degree the hard way—in service to this country. I’m a Vietnam veteran from a very working class (inner city) community. Ph’d's did not make this counrtry what it is, but it sure as hell is making it what it shouldn’t be (Been on a college campus lately?). I applaud your consistency in sticking to the issue, but I also appreciate what others have to say. It’s too bad we all can’t be in one room and debate this issue live. I believe you would change your mind as to how “educated” everyone is. This is not about education. Every opinion should be welcomed. It’s about freedom of expression. Yours, mine, ours. No degrees need apply.

Posted by vern on Feb 11, 2003 at 9:09 PM

Vern, I agree with you about the budget process.  However, illegal aliens are only Consitutionally entitled to health care and public education according to the Supreme Court.  The Peyton Knight article that you provided said that the nation-wide the cost of illegal aliens using the public education system is $1.6 billion and $5 billion combined for public education and health care.  Give me a break down of New York State and City’s share of these figures relative to the State’s and City’s budgets.

Some services such as tranportation (mass transit, street improvements, etc.) are inherently free rider problems and it is impossible to break out usage by citizenship and residence.  They are capital improvement and maintenance costs that need to made regardless.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 11, 2003 at 9:15 PM

Vern, I hear you.  It’s hard not to engage in hitting below the belt when you are constantly being called a Pharisee, moron, liberal pinhead, have no common sense, etc.  Mea Culpa.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 11, 2003 at 9:24 PM

Vern, the Personal Responsibilty and Work Reconciliation Act of 1996(i.e., welfare reform law) outlawed legal immigrants from receiving welfare (Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, TANF, formerly known as AFDC) and Social Security disability insurance for at least five years; illegal aliens are not eligible at all for welfare and Social Security disability insurance.  Illegal aliens are also not eligible for public housing, Section 8 and other U.S. Dept. of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) programs such the Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) program, HOME Investment Partnerships Funds, and Federal Housing Administration (FHA) mortgage insurance programs.  Under the Supremacy clause of the Constitution, States and Local Governments cannot waive Federal statutes and regulations and provide these programs and services to illegal aliens.  The Tenth Amendment defers health and welfare issues to the States.  However, Proposition 187 in California denying illegal aliens’ children public education and health care was successfully challenged based on the 1982 Supreme Court decision, which said that public education and welfare are Constitutionally protected entitlements.

States, Counties and Cities can use their own tax revenues collected within their jurisdictions, but not received from the Federal Treasury, to provides services to illegal aliens without requiring citizenship and residency requirements.  These are decisions made by State, County and Municipal legislatures and they have to live with the budget consequences.  I would still like to see New York State’s and City’s share of the national $1.6 billion public education and $5 billion combined health and education costs relative to their budgets.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 11, 2003 at 10:15 PM

Correction: in 1982 the Supreme Court ruled that public education and health care are Constitutionally protected entitlements that cannot be denied to illegal aliens.  Welfare was not one of them.  The 1996 welfare reform law made all immigrants ineligible for welfare.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 11, 2003 at 10:21 PM

bobby, i pity your daughter too…...  i agree that people serious about making a life in the united states should learn the language, but instead of constantly loathing in self-pity, consider the situations of others…...MAYBE YOU SHOULD TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE. It obvious to me that you assume too much about me. My daughter, like myself, knows that her future is in her hands; she knows that she is the one who has to do the work, and that success or failure is up to her; she will have to compete with others, especially immigrants, for everything in life. Knowing this going in will help keep her motivated toward her goals. She’ll do what she needs to do, so save your pity for your volunteer work…..For the record, I have worked with Hispanics, have nothing personal against them, and I have worked some of the hard, shitty jobs some idiots say American workers won’t do. I have seen first hand the impact Hispanics have done to the local job market and economy, so unless you are competing with them for anything, you’ll never understand what its like. I am currently working and retooling my education. It is the second time I have done it since high school, and I expect I’ll be doing it a lot in the future. As to the language bugaboo, this isn’t Europe; Americans speak English as a first language, always have, but will probably not be speaking it in the future.  I don’t want to live in an America where English is the second language. As to your volunteer work:  You’ve lost touch with reality, as you are in love with the fantasy of helping some poor, third world refugees. Well, there is enough poverty in America to go around, and if you think the immigrants have the market cornered, you’re completely out of your mind. Where is your compassion for the displaced or unemployed American workers? I guess those poor bastards are just lazy boobs sponging off the system, wallowing in their self-pity because they lost their jobs to foreign competition. They should quit whining and go back to school! At what cost to our own country and its economy can we afford to keep allowing so many immigrants in? I don’t expect you or anyone else to agree with me 100% on anything, but I do think you need to take you’re own advice, and ‘consider the situations of others’, especially your fellow Americans…..

Posted by Bobby on Feb 11, 2003 at 11:37 PM

I GIVE UP! YOU WIN! I DON’T WANNA POST HERE NO MORE, CUZ ALL THE INTELLECTUAL BULLIES ARE HERE, PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF LOVE, STATISTICS,  AND RESPONSIBILITY! WE SHOULDN’T BLAME OUR GREEDY, IRRESPONSIBLE GOVERNMENT OR THE ILLEGAL ALIENS. WE SHOULD ALL BLAME OURSELVES IF WE LOSE OUR JOB, NOT FOREIGN COMPETITION OR IMPORTED CHEAP LABOR! ITS OUR FAULT FOR NOT WORKING TWO JOBS, INSTEAD OF SPENDING TIME WITH OUR FAMILIES! ITS OUR FAULT FOR NOT GETTING OUR EDUCATION, WHETHER WE COULD AFFORD IT OR NOT! I GUESS IF YOU DON’T GET TO GO TO COLLEGE AND GET A DEGREE, YOU’RE JUST WORTHLESS,TRAILER TRASH, SCUM(OR MAYBE AN IMMIGRANT)..........

Posted by Bobby on Feb 11, 2003 at 11:50 PM

Legal Footnote on Trespassing and Private Property: deadly force cannot be used to protect property (e.g., shoot someone who is merely passing through the property) unless it is in self-defense in that the owner feels there is an imminent danger to his person and/or threat of bodily harm.  For example, the trespasser must be armed with a weapon or lunging at the owner to choke his/her neck, etc.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 12, 2003 at 12:01 AM

To Good Christian:  You spew statistics, you sound pro-illegal immigration.  I commend you for your knowledge.  But you lack common sense and empathy for America.  May I ask you a question?  Were you born in America, were your parents illegal immigrants?  Your postings do make one wonder.

Posted by Leslie on Feb 12, 2003 at 8:32 AM

Leslie, to answer your question, my grandparents were U.S. citizens (naturalized), and my parents and I were born in this country.  None of my ancestors ever came to this country illegally.  My family has been in this country for over 100 years.  I have lived in New York, California, and Massachusetts.  I have met and had many hard-working, honest, and law-abiding immigrants as neighbors.  I am PRO: Democracy, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Civil Rights and Human Rights.  I am ANTI-Racism, ANTI-Discrimination, ANTI-Violence, ANTI-HATE, and ANTI-Scapegoating.  I am very PRO-American.

Vern, I checked the following web sites: New York City’s (http://home.nyc.gov/portal/index.jsp?pageID=nyc_home), NYC Comptroller’s (http://www.comptroller.nyc.gov/), and NYC Dept. of City Planning’s (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/home.html), and New York State’s (http://www.state.ny.us).  None of them had any studies nor cost analyses of the usage of social services by illegal aliens.  This a quote from NYC’s Office of Immigrant Affairs: “Many immigrants in New York City are eligible for public benefit programs. Access to some benefits depend upon an immigrant’s legal status, while other benefits do not.” Source: http://www.nyc.gov/html/imm/html/publicbenefits.html

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 12, 2003 at 8:58 PM

G.C. wrote:

Vern, I checked the following web sites: New York City’s (http://home.nyc.gov/portal/index.jsp?pageID=nyc_home), NYC Comptroller’s (http://www.comptroller.nyc.gov/), and NYC Dept. of City Planning’s (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/home.html), and New York State’s (http://www.state.ny.us). None of them had any studies nor cost analyses of the usage of social services by illegal aliens.

Unfortunately, you won’t get the answer merely by accessing certain sites. The City of New York is extremely huge and it’s budget allocation complex. Take into account that the many community based programs that receive Federal and State funds will not be reflected in the City budget (“special funding”). The many agencies that make up the NY government extract and allocate money on their own, to many civic and community organizations.  That’s why I suggested you extract the information at NYC.gov site. I would like to point out that the reduction in welfare funds from FY 98 to FY ‘02 means the increase of needed funds to over sectors of government to cover cost, care and resources for the populace. Reduction in service to the taxpayer would not translate to reduction in services to the illegal alien residents. Simply because those numbers are not static. As that population increases , so do projected cost, because that population must be delivered to, as chartered (Mediacid, bilingual services,education,legal,etc.).

Basically, you’ll find the fiscal information here, at the Mayor’s Office of Operations. Bear in mind that simply extracting fiscal year Federal and State funds allocated for health and welfare for illegal aliens will not determine fiscal impact. Take into consideration infrastructure costs, one-time revenue (e.g. public sales of buildings), and other localized costs are also factored in. Also, recently 100 social service hirees were not budgeted for FY 2002, because of the current NYC 4 billion dollar deficit. Even though services need to be streamlined, you’ll find that services to illegal aliens remain untouched. Senoir citizen centers, firehouses or daycare center may close because, frankly, they’re obvious. But services to the undocumented remain untouched.

Posted by vern on Feb 14, 2003 at 10:13 PM

To G.C.:
You’ll find a start to your fiscal inquiries here, from the NYC.gov. site. Don’t forget to view the City’s allocation of funds to the local community resources that service the undocumented.

“The Mayor’s Management Report (MMR), which is mandated by the City Charter, serves as a public report card about the way City services affect the lives of City residents. The MMR is released twice a year. The Preliminary MMR provides information about City service delivery during the first four months of the fiscal year. The Fiscal MMR covers the entire fiscal year. The following summarizes the information that can now be accessed on by clicking below.
Fiscal 2002 Mayor’s Management Report (MMR) - covers 41 agencies and over 800 performance indicators (also available in print);
Fiscal 2002 MMR Executive Summary - describes changes and enhancements to the Fiscal 2002 MMR (also available in print);
Supplementary Indicator Tables - Provides data for all indicators included in the Preliminary Fiscal 2002 MMR;

Indicator Definitions - provide description and source of each performance indicator in the printed Fiscal 2002 MMR

My Neighborhood Statistics - a pilot feature which maps 14 selected performance indicators by neighborhood using a street address or intersection;

MMR Archives - Fiscal 1997 through Preliminary Fiscal 2002 MMRs. “

Posted by vern on Feb 14, 2003 at 10:17 PM

To G.C.:
If you really want a thrill, read the ten year 2004-2014 budget at:
http://home.nyc.gov/html/omb/html/budpubs.html#2003docs

To everyone else who finds this boring: I do , too! I know this wanders wildly from the discussion , but the illeagl alien problem also boils down to dollars and cents. The super-hidden cost are cover up and explained away by the government in budget and fiscal projections. Unless you are adept at figuring out those super-hidden costs, you will find yourself on the losing end of an argument about the cost of illegal immigartion. We see it in our communities and elsewhere, but the government, corporate pigs that they are, can explain your tax dollars away. I’ve seen the numbers fudged and manipulated first hand. Just be assured that every time your taxes are extracted from your paycheck, it’s not for your good.

Posted by vern on Feb 14, 2003 at 10:29 PM

Note to bobby:

I hear what you’re saying. Stick with this. Don’t give up. Eventually this system will collapse under it’s own weight. The American people are being taxed to hell and slavery. The next revolution is just beginning, but you and everyone else will just have to hang in there and mobilize. There’s a lot of us on the inside who hate what’s happening to this country, too. I didn’t come back from from Vietnam to be on the losing end again.

Posted by vern on Feb 14, 2003 at 10:35 PM

To G.C.:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/ops/home.html

Posted by vern on Feb 14, 2003 at 10:43 PM

To Vern from Spotswood:
    I realize that both the Republican party and the Democrats are catering to the illegals,trying to win their vote.I`ve written several letters to my politicians about this,and they will NOT reply.I`m in the process of trying to organize a Million-Person March on Washington to FORCE the damned so-called leaders of our country to hear us.I`m sick of being taxed to death,too just so the government can support illegals coming into the U.S.Every pro-immigration -limits organization I contact about how to organize a march tells me the same thing.You have to start one person at a time.I have a lady in Arizona,one state where the illegals slip into the country,interested in helping me organize a march.I`m talking to people in North Carolina.And if you are willing to help,you can talk to people in your home state.If we don`t do something besides write letters on the net,telling our opinions on immigration,then the problem will just continue,and the illegal population will keep on growing.To hell with the government.They won`t solve the problem.Unless we organize and stick together,our children can kiss their future good-bye.Write and give me your ideas.

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 15, 2003 at 4:37 AM

Here is the gist of what I have read in recent days in the Arizona Republic newspaper about the illegal immigration problem:  A Senator here is trying to get federal money to reimburse or pay for the exorbitant expenses (hospital bills) incurred by the illegal immigrants in this border state of Arizona.  Also, “Prey, Home invaders targeting Hispanic immigrants”  Mexican robbers follow illegal immgrants home from such places as the swap meets, mom & pop businesses and check cashing stores, force their way into the vendor’s homes and make off with their savings and merchandise.  They sell their stolen goods at other swap meets or take them back to Mexico, according to Sgt. Benny Pina.  You don’t think that these people aren’t ruthless?  You don’t think that they don’t pose a definite problem?  There’s a couple of more articles, which I won’t go into today, like the English speaking issue in the Arizona schools, the illegal immigrants are presenting the school systems in this state with money problems because money has to be specially allocated to teach them English.

Posted by Leslie on Feb 15, 2003 at 9:58 AM

Vern, you still haven’t answered my question.  What are the cost estimates for NYC and State for providing services to illegal aliens relative to the size of their budgets?  The causes of New York City’s deficit were the impact of Sept. 11th, the recession and the tanking stock market all lowered tax revenues collected.  The estimates that I have seen are that there are about 400,000 illegal aliens in NYC, or 5% of the City’s 8 million population.

According to the City’s web site, besides elementary and high school public education (including lunch and breakfast programs), these are the only services that illegal aliens are eligible for: prenatal care for pregnant women and infants, domestic violence assistance, child abuse and maltreatment, emergency housing, AIDS services and low-income health insurance.  Source: http://www.nyc.gov/html/imm/html/publicbenefits.html

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 15, 2003 at 11:59 AM

Illegal aliens can’t vote.  The Republicans and Democrats are catering to the Latino citizens who can vote.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 15, 2003 at 12:06 PM

To Good Christian:
    That was what I was talking about!! I know illegal immigrants can`t vote!What I meant was that the parties are catering to illegals to butter up the Hispanic citizens for their vote.And we get fucked in the process.And if the voting security is anything like immigration security,how do we know that illegal Mexicans don`t vote?Prisoners are also not supposed to vote,but some did in Florida in the 2000 election!

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 15, 2003 at 1:10 PM

Vern, let’s presume that New York City bears 100% of the burden of the national cost of providing public education and health care to illegal aliens, which is $5 billion according to the Peyton Knight article, “Immigration Insanity,” that you provided.  New York City’s tax revenues are $40 billion.  If New York City paid the entire national cost of providing public education and health care ($5 billion) to illegal aliens, that would make up 12.5% of New York City’s budget, which is still a small minority.  Realistically, NYC’s share of the national burden of providing public education and healthcare is probably an extremely small share of its budget.  Basically, you have no way of estimating what the cost is to provide services to illegal aliens because you claim that they are hiden and you don’t know how to break them out.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 15, 2003 at 1:44 PM

This is out of the Arizona Republic, Febr. 12, 2003:  “Rep. Randy Graf, R-Green Valley, took exception to Beltran’s comments, (the Mexican consul general in Phoenix “Mexican envoy rips immigration bills”) contending that something has to be done to control illegal immigration.  He estimates that it costs the state a billion dollars a year in education, hospital care and law enforcement along the border.”  Beltran, Mexico’s highest ranking official in Arizona condemned proposed state laws aimed at clamping down on undocumented immigrants.  RIGHT ON!  Someone is trying to do something about this problem.

Posted by Leslie on Feb 15, 2003 at 8:03 PM

This is out of the Arizona Republic, a newspaper:  “More about border and immigration issues, including political concerns over how many illegal immigrants use border hospitals, at border.azcentral.com.”

Posted by Leslie on Feb 15, 2003 at 8:06 PM

Hey,Good Christian:
    You say that illegal Mexican immigrants can`t get welfare?Then,tell me how the hell can they afford the fine vehicles they drive?About every Mexican we see around here is driving a late-model truck or car.I know damned well that many of them don`t have jobs.We work every day,and we still can`t afford a new vehicle.On numerous occassions,I have seen a family of Mexicans crawl out of new vans and cars,and they would have at least two to three kids with one in the oven.If they don`t get help from some where,how do they afford all this?All the evidence seems to be against what you say about them not getting government help,and taxes.What does the “human computer” have to say about this?

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 15, 2003 at 8:33 PM

Callahan, you are speculating where the money comes from.  What is your evidence that they are receiving welfare?  Perhaps like everyone else they get their money from work.  They could have multiple family members in the same househlold working to help with paying housing and living expenses including automobiles.

Leslie fails to provide precise figures either for costs or crime rates.  What is the norm?  What is the exception?

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 16, 2003 at 12:38 PM

What the hell difference does it make how illegals get new cars?What the hell difference does it make how much they are costing us in crime?What the hell difference does it make how much they are driving up health care costs?Thes leeches are illegal,and shoud not be here to start with!Morons like “good Christian would stand by and see them bankrupt our country.

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 16, 2003 at 2:30 PM

How do you know that they are bankrupting the country if you don’t know how much the costs are?  Looks like the pot is calling the kettle black in using the term moron.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 16, 2003 at 4:35 PM

To a Good Christian:  According to Arizona newspapers, some border hospitals are going bankrupt providing medical care to the illegal immigrants who do not pay for their care.  They (Mexicans nationals)actually come to the US hospitals specifically to receive medical care, according to a cable medical documentary.

Posted by Leslie on Feb 17, 2003 at 8:23 AM

“...Vern, you still haven’t answered my question. What are the cost estimates for NYC and State for providing services to illegal aliens relative to the size of their budgets? ... According to the City’s web site, ...these are the only services that illegal aliens are eligible for: prenatal care for pregnant women and infants, domestic violence assistance, child abuse and maltreatment, emergency housing, AIDS services and low-income health insurance…”

Thus the conundrum. How much is too much for the taxpayes to support? Good Chrisitian, since you are a follower of “the living Christ”, (and I am a reformed missionary in the Jesuit tradition) your outlook is different from mine. But not much. You seem to follow those “white paper” figures, and your trust in other’s statistics is evident as well as astounding. Internal cost (humanitarian services) granted, but there are external costs. Lets say a community board, allocated funds for their special interests, diverts ( I should have said “diverted”, rather than “hidden”—mea culpa) funds to a consultant who wants to do an impact study on, say, sex education for grade schoolers. However, it’s revealed that this study was really how to introduce a gay curriculum to the grade schoolers. Naturally, there is a deniability statement issued. My point is that the “white paper” figures will never show the funds diverted to special interest groups that are funneled for “other costs”. The system is too huge. However, we also consistently on the local level do impact studys in communities, and how change (influx of poor, etc.) impacts those communities, standards of living, education costs, etc. and, since barometers of change are best observed on the local level, we see a significant shift.

Posted by vern on Feb 18, 2003 at 12:56 PM

In the past immigrants stayed a short time, and then blended into the general population. Not now. Thereby an area grows in leaps and bounds, and seeing how most of those areas remain poor, associated (external costs) parallel the internal costs. Law enforcenment, sanitation, etc. are impacted. (Get it? Impact study.) Naturally, it falls back on the good ol’ taxpayer. Cost of living, standards of living, etc. are impacted for the once mighty middle class (See? Another impact study?) I’m just a small, bureaucratic, insider working with multi-billion dollar “excesses”  who constantly rails against the abuse the taxpayers receive by the government. If you think you, G.C., will be privy to the real reason illegal immigrants are here, I say just keep your heart on your sleeve and stop citing statistics. Statistics were made for people like you—to allow you to present arbitrary and suspect “numbers”. I don’t know where you live, what you do for a living, or what your agenda is. From your profile, you sound like a compassionate person.  Please don’t take it as an insult, you need an education in real world statistics. Were you a racist before and suddenly found Christ ? Just curious. Right now,we need “meat -eaters”, not “granola-eaters” to take charge and get this government back in line. But, for you, I’ll try and scare up those “diversion funds”, but may I suggest you do your own “impact study”, and use real world statistics instead of the white paper variety.

To Mike Callahan:
Mike, if you can write a pamphlet or something with your views, print them and then have people send for them, a movement can be spread that way. Believe me, a lot of us inside see what’s going on and the future ain’t rosy. As I say consistently: DON’T BELIEVE THE STATISTICS ! They’re for feel good purposes and justifys funding only. Look around your neighborhhoods and ask yourself and your neighbors: “Are these changes impacting my and my family’s way of life ?” If you say yes, the government has known a long time before you have.

Posted by vern on Feb 18, 2003 at 1:02 PM

Vern, I actually disagree with you about the budget process.  I was just letting you go on asserting how the government works on the “inside.”  I have worked in the public (Federal and state) and nonprofit sectors and have a Master’s degree in urban planning.  I know how governments are funded and it is not how you describe it.  The Federal and State governments provide their funding to lower-level governments based on formula and competitive grants.  The formula grants take into account census counts and other variables depending on the agency and type of government service.  For example, California, Texas, and New York as three of the largest states in terms of population and will get larger formula grants (note that the census is based on total counts of people not citizenship and it is illegal for the Census Bureau to report illegal aliens to the INS during the census count as incentive to get the highest count possible) for example for Community Development Block Grants, HHS TANF grants, highways, etc.  Then, there are competitive and demonstration programs that States, counties, cities, and nonprofit organizations can apply for to the Federal Government depending on the agency.  States do the same with counties, cities and nonprofits.  For competitive and demonstration grants, higher-level governments do not fund lower-level governments based on wish-list budgets.  Competitive grants tend to go to organizations that either produce more and/or have political connections with elected officials.

Public-benefit programs directly serving individuals verify citizenship requirements if they utilize Federal funds; the Federal Government has auditors and regulators that monitor grant recipients and disallow costs that are repaid to the Federal Government.  Infrastructure costs such as mass transit, street improvements or sanitation (capital improvement or maintenance) need to be made regardless of who uses them because you can’t break out usage by citizenship and cities need those investments to remain economically viable and competitive.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 18, 2003 at 9:18 PM

You also assume that illegal immigrant do not pay taxes.  Illegal immigrants with fake social security cards get taxes directly deducted from their pay checks every pay period for Federal, State, Social Security, Medicare and workers’ compensation.  Illegal aliens using fake social security cards who have bought homes also pay local property taxes.  Illegal aliens (off or on the books) also pay sales taxes whenever they buy any retail product, which is shared by state and local governments.

You claim that statistical studies are all based on lies in data collection.  Instead, we should just believe you that you know the “real world” impact because you know as an “insider” what the “enormous” impact is on government budgets and services, yet you can’t even use your insider skills and knowledge of the budgeting process to calculate and estimate what the costs are.  By your logic, African American inner cities are poor and have terrible infrastructure and services because African Americas pay too few taxes than what the government has to put in to maintain the areas.  I have recently lived in New York City and Los Angeles, the two cities with the largest immigration (both legal and illegal) in the country, and things are not as bad as you portray them.

You must be assuming that anyone who can speak another language must be an illegal alien instead of a permanent resident or citizen and therefore the illegal alien population must be huge.  Second and third-generation children of immigrants always assimilate that’s why there are many Latinos who cannot speak Spanish.  Statistics are often about making educated estimates or guesses based on the most information available.  You rely on complete guesses using sensational and amorphous terms as “enormous” impact in this “real world.”  That sounds even more subjective to me than the official statistics that you rail against.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 18, 2003 at 9:22 PM

When conservatives have a weak argument, they always resort to name calling such as “moron,” “liberal” or say just that statistics are lies when all else fails.  Had the statistics supported your argument, you would be citing them to death.  Actually, the articles you and some of your other colleagues provided actually cited statistics, but as I showed, they were not significant relative to Federal and State budgets and to the size of the U.S. economy.

By the way, I was born and raised as a Christian and was never taught to hate by my parents nor my teachers. 

I officially retire from this absurd, conspiracy-theory laden debate.  Now I am glad that the Federal Government is controlled by Corporate America and not the paranoid, xenophobic right-wingers.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 18, 2003 at 9:27 PM

According to the Census Bureau, in the 2000 decennial census the total foreign-born population increased from 19.8 million in 1990 to 31.1 million in 2000, which represents 11.1% of the total U.S. population of 281 million.  So if you assume that 100% of the foreign-born population is illegal instead of the INS estimate of 8 million, you are still only talking about 11.1% of the U.S. population, a small minority.

Of the 31.1 million foreign-born population in 2000, 51.7% were from Latin America, 26.4% from Asia and 15.8% from Europe.  In 1930, the foreign-born population represented 11.6% of the U.S. population.  The proportion of foreigners relative to U.S. citizens is not growing.  The difference is that Latinos and Asians are now the majority of the foreign-born instead of Europeans.  Given this immigration pattern and birth rates, the U.S. population will be getting more brown and yellow in the future.  This is what the white supremacists abhor and there is nothing they can do about because the electorate is a multiracial democracy.

Source: http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/2002/cb02cn117.html

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 19, 2003 at 7:45 PM

So let’s educate the world on safe sex and contraception, and there won’t be such an overpopulation problem. Unfortunately, our president has cut funding from agencies abroad that even talk to people about condoms.
Where do you think all these people you hate are coming from?

Posted by P on Feb 21, 2003 at 11:31 AM

To Good Christian:  Did you run out of analytical statistics?  Haven’t heard from you lately.  I stick with facts myself.  But everyone has a right to their own opinions, right?

Posted by Leslie on Feb 24, 2003 at 11:07 AM

“...When conservatives have a weak argument, they always resort to name calling such as

Posted by vern on Feb 24, 2003 at 8:31 PM

“...Vern, I actually disagree with you about the budget process. I was just letting you go on asserting how the government works on the

Posted by vern on Feb 24, 2003 at 8:49 PM

“... Given this immigration pattern and birth rates, the U.S. population will be getting more brown and yellow in the future. This is what the white supremacists abhor and there is nothing they can do about because the electorate is a multiracial democracy. ...”

Hmmm, G.C., so as an African American, am I supposed to worry, or was this just a nice Chrisitian, liberal, condescending sound bite on your part ? Nope. I worry about this country’s future and I don’t want Corporate America or Chrisitian America running it, either. You and the Corporate America you deride are different sides of the same coin—they welcome the cheap labor as much as you welcome the ones who will be exploited ! Be aware of good intentions, sir, for they surely kill.
Enjoy your retirement…

Posted by vern on Feb 24, 2003 at 9:01 PM

Leslie, what are the differences between a fact, an argument or opinion with supporting facts and evidence, an unsubstantiated opinion and a false opinion?  How are conclusions drawn based on facts and the different types of opinions?  Yes, everyone has the right to his or her own opinion.  However, not all opinions are equal.  Some opinions are unsubstantiated (unverifiable or provide insufficient or lack of evidence) or false (untrue, lack verification, or intentionally inaccurate).  Citing a factual individual incident or a small number of factual cases or incidents (e.g., a small minority or insignificant percentage of cases or situations) does not amount to substantiating an argument or opinion with supporting facts and evidence to prove the norm.  An inductive argument must prove representation (case study as being representative of the larger population or context—in other words, that a sample or series of incidents occur the majority of the time).  Otherwise, we don’t know what is the norm and what is the exception when it comes to many factual incidents.

I already retired from the immigration debate, but came back this time at your request to explain to you the nature and logic of opinions.  Vern wants to know how illegal aliens send money back to their countries of origin?  They do it through wire transfers, which are not illegal in and of themselves; the total remissions amount to $13 billion out of a $10 trillion economy (0.13% of the U.S. economy).  Illegal immigration will continue to have an insignificant impact and Vern and his white-supremacist alllies will continue to worry about the situation.  Should the white supremacists want to start a race war over it, the Federal Government will come after them.  For more information about how Corporate America controls the government, see the excerpt of Arianna Huffington’s new book on corporate lobbying posted on vote.com’s web site: http://www.vote.com/huff/p2.phtml

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 25, 2003 at 7:28 AM

To Good Christian:  Atta boy!  I knew you still had some steam in left you!  I guess we all have retired from this illegal immigration “debate”.  It would be interesting to know what will happen to these “reader’s comments”.  To Vern, it’s been interesting.

Posted by Leslie on Feb 26, 2003 at 8:12 PM

Hey,Vern:
  I guess you have heard about the young Mexican [ illegal] girl who received the heart-lung transplant at Duke University Hospital in my home state of North Carolina.Sorry to say,she died.
  I didn`t have anything against the hospital trying to help her out,and save her life.But now her parents are going to sue the hospital.Yes,the doctors screwed up with the first operation,and gave her a heart that was not compatible with her blood type.But then they gave her a second heart and a second set of lungs to correct the mistake.All of this was at tax payer expense.No money from the parents of the girl.
    There is a two-year waiting list for heart transplant patients.This girl got TWO hearts and TWO sets of lungs in two weeks!She was here illegally,and was moved ahead of thousands of Americans waiting on a heart.
  And when she died,her mother refused to give back the heart and lungs to be used to save another life.The parents called the doctors"murderers”.I`m sorry for the loss of their daughter,but this is an outrage.When will it stop?

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 27, 2003 at 6:45 AM

Like usual, there goes Mike Callahan again making up false allegations parading as facts.  Jessica Santillan was on the waiting list for three years before she received the first transplants.  A private foundation raised charitable donations to pay for her medical bills not U.S. taxpayers.  The doctors did the second transplants because they botched the first one and probably feared a medical malpractice lawsuit.  Source: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030226/ap_wo_en_ge/na_gen_us_transplant_error_2

If someone pulled the life-support-system plug on your kid after a botched transplant without your authorization before you could get a second medical opinion, you too would want to sue for medical malpractice.  The family would still have the legal right to hire an attorney, sue and pursue a civil judgment even if they were to be deported; the family’s attorney would represent them and handle the lawsuit while they are living abroad.  Illegal aliens still have due process rights because the United States is a constitutional democracy.  You may not like the Constitution or existing laws, but that does not mean that the rule of law is insane and that you don’t have to abide by the Constitution and existing laws.  If you don’t like living in a democracy, you can always move to a brutal dictatorship like Iraq, where citizens don’t have constitutional, civil or human rights.

It’s unbelievable how you people just can’t get facts, logic, the law and statistics.  You make up the “real world” in your own mind and then expect everyone to believe your false allegations and paranoia.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 28, 2003 at 10:42 AM

This is from the private charitable foundation, Jesica’s Hope Chest Inc., created to raise money and pay for Jesica Santillan’s medical bills:

“We have received several scathing e-mails from people who are concerned that the family refused to donate Jesica’s organs. We want to make sure that there is an understanding of what has occurred. Jesica’s mother had asked about donating Jesica’s new heart and lungs, she thought it would be a shame for them to go to waste, and about donating Jesica’s other organs. The doctors told the Santillans and Mr. Mahoney that the heart and lungs would not be serviceable for a re-transplant and that the kidneys and liver were ruined from being on life support for too lengthy a time and the other organs and tissues were so saturated with medications and anti-rejection drugs that they also would not be serviceable for donation. By the time that the doctors got around to telling the family that they may be able to use the corneas of Jesica’s eyes (and that was all that would have been useable) the family had been put through the worst ordeal a family could face and a very tired and emotionally worn out mother took the advice of her legal counsel to leave Jesica as is, for the pending autopsy…The donation of the corneas, as we understand it, would not make a life saving impact for anyone.”  Source: http://www.4jhc.org/

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Feb 28, 2003 at 10:56 AM

WELL,Mr. expert,if I`m wrong about what I said about the illegal girl getting the transplant,then Bill O`REILLY on the O`Reilly Factor is wrong too.So is one of the most liberal news papers in my state of N.C.Why didn`t you work for The Pentagon,Mr.Good Christian?You are such a genius,you could probably solve all the problems in the U.S!If this is true about the foundation paying for the transplant,then why did one doctor at Duke Hospital say that the government is paying for it?
    The government is also paying to have the body shipped back to Mexico.Maybe you and other Good Liberals like yourself will want to chip in when the parents sue the hell out of Duke Hospital.

Posted by Mike Callahan on Feb 28, 2003 at 3:57 PM

“...Illegal immigration will continue to have an insignificant impact and Vern and his white-supremacist alllies will continue to worry about the situation. Should the white supremacists want to start a race war over it, the Federal Government will come after them…”
Well, guess who’s back from a “short” retirement—again ! Mr. G.C. himself (herself?). G.C., these temper tantrums and name calling have got to stop. Put on your happy face now. You’ve also given me a vision of America that’s from the pages of “Reality Gone Bizarre”. You stated I have now allied myself with ” white-supremacist “. Typical G.C.. O.K. if you want to play the name-game, but I didn’t realize the white-supremacist’s had such a large arena of suppoters. You see, G.C., my views are not untypical because they are echoed by millions of Black, white, asian and, yes, even Hispanic people (ever read Linda Chavez or Michelle Malkin?). Americans all. Your “Federal government” has already come after us—that war started long ago. You’re about 100 years late. Ever hear of modern taxation? Fascinating study. Your “Constitutional democracy” (do you mean the Bill Of Rights and its subsequent amendments?) has also been tampered with over the last 35 years (fifth amendent issues? Homeland Security?). Are we a democracy or a republic, G.C.? Do we vote through majority or through the electoral college process? Whatever happened to Jefferson’s et al two party system? You read and cite well- especially statistics. Now apply it to real world circumstance. Ever hear of “Common Sense” principles? Your mind is muddled by pie-in-the-sky vision. However, you are in “hell” along with the rest of us, except you see us as the “devils”- exorcising your soul; preaching evil; not seeing through Christ eyes. I am not so arrogant as to think I can live Christ-like. I’ve had my fill of priests who sexually molest; reverends who cheat on their wives; imans that preach fire against “infidels”; rabbi’s who download pornography; spiritualists who conjure up the dead for prophet; and so on. It’s interesting, too, the site you linked concerning Yesica, the (now dead) illegal alien child, has a site linked to Godstock. I know what your agenda is and always will be. Your motto is “Suffer the world, for the reward is Heaven.”

Posted by vern on Mar 1, 2003 at 4:54 AM

Yes, Mike, I read the Yesica story. It’s interesting what the G.C. site is linked to as well:
        What is Godstock?
Godstock was founded on Christian principles.  Our mission is to provide financial and spiritual support to chronically ill children and their families.  Godstock, Inc. will accomplish this with fundraisers supported by the community and area churches.  Godstock will continue to operate in such a manner as to glorify and serve our Father in Heaven..”
All G.C.‘s argument’s and statistics about illegal aliens are centered around his (her?) so-called Chrisitian faith and liberal piousness. Basing outcomes on everyday, real-world situations are not entertained. Recently, 5 homeless Hispanic men were arrested for brutally raping , sodomizing and torturing an Hispanic mother of two children, here in New York City. She and here boyfriend, also Hispanic were walking in an area near the shanty-town of these men. They abducted her, brutally beating the boyfriend. He later got away and called police. 4 of these “people” (I’ll resist the name calling) were later identified as illegals with criminal backgrounds, from quality of life crimes to felony convictions. Yet, even though some spent time in jail, even violating their probations at times, they were not deported. Why? Because New York City is a safe haven city for illegals The police are discouraged , ironically by the INS, from reporting them. City government workers, by mayoral executive order, are forbidden from contacting the INS. If you can, go online to the NewYorkPost.com,  the 2/28/02 edition. Bill O’Reilly also spoke to the former police commissioner, Howard Safir, who was also disgusted by the mayoral and INS policy.

Posted by vern on Mar 1, 2003 at 5:56 AM

Typically, I can hear G.C. now. “What has that to do with illegal aliens? Most of them are law abiding? What about American citizens who commit heinous crimes?...blah,blah,blah…” Yes, G.C. perhaps most are law abiding (hiding). They are still breaking the law. Yes Americans commit heinous crimes as well, and I believe in the death penalty, too(surprise…). But look at it this way, and admittedly this may be a little simplistic, but I am a “proud back-woods uneducated bigot” afterall: If you have cancer in your right lung, do you want it to spread into my left? You will do whatever it takes to stop it. Because, as you become infected with more cancer cells, you become weaker. Your health and well-being are in jeopardy. Your quality of life is disrupted, and your daily routine becomes interrupted. You’re faced with additional hardships that cannot be remedied without assistance. So you must choose to fight this disease. Eradicate it. Stop it before it spreads out of control. Eventually try to reverse it. If one type of medication doesn’t work, try something else until you win. Any agents aligned with this cancer, that’s helping or causing to spread this cancer, must also be destroyed. Sometimes those agents are what you think are the least harmless. So you let your guard down and don’t think of them as an underlying cause, until you’re educated.  So you have to fight the disease on all fronts. You have no choice if I want to live and support my family. You fight aggressively, without sympathy, without giving quarter. Sometimes you may feel all alone in your struggle, but there are many others who feel the same isolation. Until you get a network of support. That’s always encouraging and additionally builds strength.

Posted by vern on Mar 1, 2003 at 6:00 AM

Hate is an emotion as strong as love. One does not love a disease. The love is in living in a healthy and safe environment, for you as well your children. The hate is in those who insist that we must suffer a disease in order to understand that disease. They give you the muddled facts, half -truths, and lies about the disease to confuse you and alienate you, insisting that the suffering is caused by you and your “negative” thinking. They truly hate you and do not care about your situation, only their piousness. Their philosphy is for the weak.
They insist prayer and sacrifice are the answer, and you’ll receive your reward “in Heaven”. In the meantime, “suffer the children”. Didn’t mean to preach, Mike, but you know what I mean. Someday G.C. will, too, but he’ll (she’ll ?) need to get “smacked” by the reality stick first.

Posted by vern on Mar 1, 2003 at 6:01 AM

Your turn, Mr. (Ms. ?) Good Christian

Posted by vern on Mar 1, 2003 at 6:03 AM

To Leslie:
Remember that facts can be built on lies as well, until the lie becomes almost irrefutable. Working in government for 18 years has shown me how important facts and statistics are in supporting one’s agenda—for instance, the government convincing you why taxtion is “good”. You know the current system isn’t, but can you prove it to th e IRS ? Doubtful, because they have the charts, they have the statistics, above all, they have the power.  That’s why we always should be wary and “question authority” and it’s zealots. Believe me, and contrary to what G.C. thinks, I know the difference between surveys and statistics: practicality vs. patience; immediacy vs. long-term analysis; input and outcomes and all heady crap. But it’s always good to incorporate a little “behavioral study” into those cold, grey stats.
G.C. is an interesting person at best, whom I’m curious as to what he (she ?) does for a living, aside from searching the ‘net for facts and statistics to fight the “evil bigots” in society.The attempts to win the heart through the Christian concept, yet boggle the mind by inundating it with numbers is the same concept the government called “the winning of hearts and minds” during the Vietnam War: “Show them how well we live and they’ll come to our side eventually”.  Anyway, remember the old adage that “perception is in the eye of the beholder.”  As far as “facts” go, read “Lies My Teacher Told Me” by James W. Loewen. You’ll enjoy if you haven’t already read it.
Peace.

Posted by vern on Mar 1, 2003 at 6:56 AM

  Well-said,Vern. I saw the interview with Bill O`Reilly and Howard Safir.Same old story.Once again,politics is more important than the law and justice.Same story with our government.We`re being sold down the river for the sake of winning votes.Republicans and Democrats are equally guilty of this.

Posted by Mike Callahan on Mar 1, 2003 at 11:13 AM

I read in the paper the other day that Bush is negotiating with Pres. Fox of Mexico to do something about helping out the illegal Mexican immigrants now in the U.S. so that they can live here with little less difficulty, perhaps in the area of documents of some type, in exchange for Pres. Fox’s vote in the Iraq situation (not those exact words, but do you get the meaning?)  I guess they are here to stay.

Posted by Leslie on Mar 1, 2003 at 1:48 PM

To:RM Arrieta
I am a Hispanic female who is proud to be an American. As an American I do not believe that these people who are protecting their land and our borderes are commiting any act that can be called Racist. I do agree that if they are commiting murders then they need to be exposed and brought to justice. But to attack them simply because they are enforcing the law should not be done. Because I am Hispanic does not mean that I want every Illegal allowed into this country.  Is your article questioning whether these “vigilantes” are commiting a crime, or are you voicing the opinion that all Mexican people, simply because they are Mexican be let in to the country?

Posted by A Citizen on Mar 1, 2003 at 3:05 PM

Illegals need to go through the proper channels like I did when I came to America.  I did it legally!!
The illegals are chosing their own course of actions and must suffer the consequences.

Posted by Maria Lopez on Mar 3, 2003 at 7:40 PM

The failure of government to act in a responsible manner is the failing of the American people to monitor the people we elect. How many elected officials at the highest level of government are NOT millionaires? Why do Hollywood celebrities have more input than the average wage earning citizen? Why does it seem so many social welfare programs, that we taxpayers fund, are secretly shoved down our throat ? It makes you wonder who speaks for us anymore? But I believe that after 40 years of runaway liberalism, we are finally seeing what damage has been done and continues to be done. The major political parties have seduced us and led us to believe they’re our only hope. Wrong.  You’re right , Mike. They’re different sides of the same coin. Leslie, the Mexican government has issued a “consular” card which illegal aliens can carry as an “official” id card. These cards allow the carrier to cash checks, receive services, and other amenities, especially in the safe haven cities. Mexico’s President Fox , and it’s no secret, is attempting to unload his poor on the U.S. . This will no only alleviate so many of the problems in that country, but also allow billions to flow back into his country. It’s a win-win situation. What’s infuriating is the probable acceptance by this government—one step closer to another blanket amnesty for millions of illegal aliens- until the next wave. House Democrat Nancy Pelosi is a major instrument in support of this “fake ” id.

Posted by vern on Mar 4, 2003 at 7:18 PM

As I stated, Americans of all faiths (hear that G.C. ? Even Christians…), ethnic backgrounds, and such, are realizing this “pie” is getting smaller. We cannot support the world. The average house here in the New York Metro area is $250,000 or higher. Real estate taxes top $10,000 and more. It seems to many that the cost of living is going up while our spending power is going down. Isn’t it easy for a millionaire politician to insist we ordinary citizens give more than we have or will ever hope to have. The best thing I guess is to row twenty miles out into the ocean and come back pretending not to speak English.
I realize again, I’ve strayed from this original forum, and I apologize for being long winded; but when certain people (and we know who) read the various postings and conclude we who oppose illegal immigration are short-sighted bigots and racists, then let’s pull out all the issues.  Whatever the Left (overs) and politically correct want to believe, we will not be silenced. It’s not black vs. white vs. Asian vs. Latino anymore. It’s who wants to live in a decent , orderly and fair society. Things are out of control and need to be stabilized. That’s just plain, common sense.

Posted by vern on Mar 4, 2003 at 7:19 PM

I read part of this story and was appalled. If Native Americans had treated whites (read: illegal aliens) that way when you first settled this country, what would have happened. This is about as much “our country” as the moon belongs to us. When will you people get it in your heads that we DO NOT OWN THE LAND.  It was here before we got it and it will be here when we leave. It doesn’t belong to a particular group!!! This is madness. That’s why other people hate us, we can do unto anybody else, as long as they don’t do to us. I’ll pray for you all.

Posted by FeLicia Elam on Mar 7, 2003 at 3:17 PM

  Felicia:

  You good liberal,your missing the whole damned point!The Indians DID treat the white settlers bad.Because the white settlers moved in on the Indians and took over the land.The Indians were good to the white people?Tell that to General Custer!The Indians fought to save their land.I`m fighting to save my culture,and as much of my damned tax money as I can!Some of us are fighting to save American jobs,and our childrens`future.Why do so many Christians seem to believe that just because you are a Christian,you should allow anyone who would enter this country illegally just to waltz right on in?Why should we as tax payers be made to support illegal Mexicans and other illegals by giving them free medical care,and welfare?The Immigration Service must be full of Christians.Maybe that`s why we no longer have a World Trade Center,and 3000 innocent Americans are dead.

Posted by Mike Callahan on Mar 7, 2003 at 3:51 PM

Rather than address the substance of my arguments and attempt to refute the existing knowledge and statistics on the size of illegal immigration and the economic impact including on Federal, state and local budgets, Vern merely claims that government statistics are lies because he knows as an “insider” and that we should trust his subjective assessment of the “huge impact” in the “real world.”  In fact, Vern and some of his cohorts cited articles which included statistics (such as Peyton Knight’s “Immigration Insanity”), but as I showed those statistics only further supported that illegal immigration has an insignificant impact on the economy and Federal and state budgets.  I am still waiting for Vern to come up with his own estimates and statistical studies explaining his methodology and data sources to supplant the existing knowledge and statistics on the impact of illegal immigration.

Vern then cites a few conservative people of color who are anti-immigration as if this is supposed to exonerate his Jesuit-inspired guilt that a small percentage of people of color are Republicans (about 10% of African Americans and 20-25% of Latinos voted for Bush in 2000).  For all I know, Vern may have been one of those Jesuits involved in the Catholic sex scandals, but never got caught.  Maybe this is why he may have a lot of pent-up guilt and sides with white supremacists.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 9, 2003 at 11:23 AM

The original point of R.M. Arrieta’s article “Armed and Dangerous” is that ARMED vigilantes are patrolling the border illegally detaining illegal aliens in desert public lands.  Only U.S. immigration law-enforcement officials have the legal authority to detain and ask illegal aliens for evidence of citizenship and permanent residence on public lands as U.S. immigration laws are Federal administrative laws; therefore, citizens’ arrests do not apply given that they pertain to criminal law.  Actually, citizens’ “arrests” related to enforcing civil and administrative laws are both a crime (kidnapping) and an illegal act in civil law (false imprisonment).  You cannot assume that because of skin color and geography that someone is an illegal alien and, therefore, “detain” (kidnap and falsely imprison) the person.  That is discrimination based on race and national origin, which is a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. 

Border Action Network’s report, “Hate or Heroism: Vigilantes on the Arizona-Mexico Border,” documents the white supremacist backgrounds of the armed vigilantes patrolling the border in Arizona.  Call them to get a copy of it.  The evidence presented in the 1/6/03 article by Susan Carroll in the Arizona Republic, “Series of Killings Tied to People-Smuggling” amounts to one victim with documents indicating he was a coyote and two more victims whose relatives said that they couldn’t send them more money before they lost contact with them (that hardly proves coyotes killed them).  There was no mention of the other six victims.  There were no witnesses to the murders, no one was caught and no evidence tying all the murders together.  Further investigations are warranted by Arizona and Federal law enforcement officials.  For all we know, the Federal and Arizona law-enforcement officials may already be investigating including surveilling the white-supremacist armed-vigilante groups to see if they catch them in the act.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 9, 2003 at 11:26 AM

In case you guys want to rehash the already refuted trespassing argument, if an illegal alien enters a rancher’s private property especially if that illegal alien tries to commit a violent or property crime, then legally that rancher is within his rights to protect his property and life against trespassing.  But, deadly force cannot be used to protect property (e.g., shoot someone who is merely passing through the property) unless it is in self-defense in that the owner feels there is an imminent danger to his person and/or threat of bodily harm such as the illegal alien is armed or physically attacks the rancher (e.g., lunges at the rancher’s throat).

The border is 2,000 miles long covering the States of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.  That is not a small area (it is two-thirds the length of the United States!) and the entire border is not composed of private ranches.  Moreover, none of the tragic articles in newspapers regarding illegal aliens committing crimes on ranchers’ private property explain to what extent that is happening; they are just stories of individual incidents.  The norm is most likely that illegal aliens are crossing the border in isolated desert public lands in order to avoid the border patrol and private ranchers given how few incidents there have been regarding trespassing on ranchers’ private property.  That’s why between 5.5 and 7.7 million Mexican illegal aliens have successfully made it into the United States.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 9, 2003 at 12:01 PM

http://www.svherald.com/display/inn_news/news1.txt
Agents net 20 smugglers, marijuana
BY BILL HESS
DOUGLAS—Twenty drug-smuggling Mexican nationals carrying 1,612 pounds of marijuana were taken into custody early Friday morning in the Carr Canyon area of the Huachuca Mountains, said Lee Morgan, resident agent in charge of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement office in Douglas.
****************************
Shazam! GC! They were CARRYING nearly a TON of marijuana! They mustn

Posted by One who knows on Mar 9, 2003 at 11:44 PM

To Good Christian:  I see you have come out of retirement, again.  You really should read the last comment, by “One Who Knows”.  I also live in this border state (Arizona) where I see numerous Mexican migrants standing on the corners waiting for day labor.  What?  Isn’t there enough work for them?  No, they don’t all get work, I feel sorry for them sometimes.  And still more are coming to the U.S., in hordes?  G.C., you are so closed-minded or maybe you can’t admit that you are wrong or maybe you are an off-spring of an illegal immigrant and are bias, which is it?

Posted by Leslie on Mar 10, 2003 at 10:36 AM

To Felicia:  I am a Native American, and I don’t want anymore illegal migration to my country!  Enough already!  Do your homework before you spew anymore nonsense.

Posted by Leslie on Mar 10, 2003 at 10:43 AM

Felicia, if you are native American, then you should realize better than GC, the danger of illegal immigration! Can YOU even SPEAK your tribal language? No?
What tribal skills, do you know and practice on a daily basis, to feed, clothe, house and provide for your family? (Using no

Posted by One Who Knows on Mar 10, 2003 at 11:30 AM

QUICK GC! Call U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo and U.S. Rep. Peter Hoekstra, after actually SEEING the area, they are calling for action against what THEY are calling an “Invasion”! They don’t have your knowledge, or insight,  and they need it quick!
http://www.svherald.com/display/inn_news/news4.txt
Maybe you can straighten them out with your superior knowledge and resources!

Posted by One Who Knows on Mar 11, 2003 at 8:01 AM

TO: One who knows!  Whatever are you rambling on about?  First of all, Felicia was not the one who said that she was Native American, it was me, Leslie!  Duh!  I am Native American & you don’t even know me or where I came from.  So don’t even go there and claim that you are—-“One who knows”.  You don’t know anything!  From reading your comments, you are two-faced, so I won’t even bother with you.

Posted by Leslie on Mar 11, 2003 at 11:51 AM

To: Leslie my apologies!
I had but a minute, and wanted to address a post, that I should have waited to answer until I had proper time to read names a little closer, and be a little clearer.
FeLicia Elam said earlier

Posted by One Who Knows on Mar 11, 2003 at 8:20 PM

One Who Knows (NOT): one incident & 20 drug smugglers caught crossing the border does not prove that the majority of the 360,000 people who cross the border annually and 8 million illegal aliens (INS figures) in the U.S. are drug dealers.  20 people represent 0.01% of the annual border crossers and 0.0003% of the total illegal aliens living in the United States.  Yes, drug smugglers do cross the border, but there is no evidence that all or the majority of people who cross the border are drug dealers.  Peyton Knight’s “Immigration Insanity” article (Vern’s anti-illegal immigration reference) cited that 1 in 8 people (12.5%) in California’s prisons (the state with the most illegal immigration) were illegal aliens, which is evidence that vast majority of illegal aliens are law abiding.

Insignificant impact does not mean no impact.  The border is 2,000 miles long and what may be happening in Conchise County, Arizona does not necessarily prove that it is happening everywhere in the border area.  I have lived in New York City (NYC) and Los Angeles (LA), which have the largest concentrations of illegal aliens in the United States, for over 27 years and illegal immigration has not had the impact that you claim.  NYC and LA are the largest and wealthiest cities in the country.  NYC has lead the country in declining crime rates.  I challenge you to give me a cost break down of public education and health care for illegal aliens relative to the size or your local budget and economy.  I am still waiting for Vern to do it for NYC.

An invasion legally means the government of another country sends military forces into another country to take over the other country’s government and occupy it.  Mexico is not invading the United States.  Poor Mexican individuals are crossing the border to illegally move to the U.S. looking for work—that is illegal immigration.  The Arizona U.S. Congressmen were just being rhetorical using the word “invasion” to raise hysteria and xenophobic popular support.  Western civilization has its origins in Egypt (Africa) as the ancient Greek intellectuals went to Egypt to study and the Founding Fathers of the U.S. borrowed federation principles from the Iroquois Native Americans.  In addition to today’s technology and economic living standards, modern European civilization also relied on slavery and colonialism and produced two world wars, fascism and communism.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 12, 2003 at 7:26 AM

Leslie, what is your definition of “hordes”?  “Hordes” is completely subjective.  I already told you that my grandparents, parents and I were/are all U.S. citizens.  I have no problem with U.S. immigration law-enforcement officials enforcing immigration laws and deporting illegal aliens when they are caught.  My bias is that I believe in democracy, the Constitution, the rule of law, due process and peaceful relations among people of all races and ethnicities.  I am against scapegoating an insignificant amount of illegal aliens (8 million or 2.9% of the total U.S. population) for all of our country’s problems and against vigilantism in which citizens decide that they want to take the law into their own hands and become police, judge, jury and executioner.

You still do not understand that an inductive argument (case study or single example) must prove representation (that it occurs the majority of the time) and that not all opinions are equal.  You are the one who is ignorant and closed-minded siding with people like One Who Knows (NOT) who showed his true white-supremacist colors denigrating Native Americans and advocating European superiority and vigilantism.  As I said before and the posts on this web site demonstrate, the main problem with the economy of this country is three out of four people in this county are uneducated and cannot keep up in this competitive, global economy.  Don’t worry, I promise not to retire anymore so that I can refute any nonsense posted by white-supremacist cowards who try to hide their racism and hate and their unwitting allies such as yourself and Vern.

Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 12, 2003 at 7:41 AM

TO::  “One Who Knows”,  Apologies accepted.  I agree with your second explanation.  I feel that the early migrants of Europe were destined to come to this land, according to God’s will.  Our Constitution says something about “Under God”, they were God fearing people and came to this land and they and the land prospered.  America is now great and prosperous.  Many people of other nations covet this prosperity and want a piece of the pie, consequently, illegal migration thru our borders.  I suspect they would rather work here for $6. an hour instead of staying in their own countries and working for 40-50 cents an hour.  The question is: how many more migrants, legal & illegal, can this country absorb?

Posted by Leslie on Mar 12, 2003 at 11:47 AM