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TO:: Good Christian, The one thing I can say about you is - you are a good debate opponent.
Posted by Leslie on Mar 12, 2003 at 11:53 AM
Now, YOU show where vigilantes, even .0001%, has “decide that they want to take the law into their own hands and become police, judge, jury and executioner.” even ONCE!
Examples have been given, where MEXICANS have killed MEXICANS, and MEXICANS have LEFT Mexicans to DIE, and you have spouted off TOTALLY unsupported with even .0000001% that it was
Posted by One Who Knows on Mar 12, 2003 at 12:07 PM
GC you promised you were gone several times, but just like herpes, or a worthless check, you keep coming back! Hahahahahahaha!
GC do you even read the idiocy you write?
Posted by One Who Knows on Mar 12, 2003 at 12:12 PM
Even you ridiculous numbers, change from post to post! Not that the number you
Posted by One Who Knows on Mar 12, 2003 at 12:13 PM
One Who Knows (NOT): You did not read carefully. The murders are still unsolved; no one was arrested, put on trial, nor convicted (i.e, it is NOT A FACT yet that either coyotes or white supremacists did it). There is scant evidence that coyotes did it if you examine the evidence presented more closely in the 1/6/03 article by Susan Carroll in the Arizona Republic, “Series of Killings Tied to People-Smuggling.” (See my 3/9/03, 12:26 PM post). Border Action Network’s report “Hate or Heroism: Vigilantes on the Arizona-Mexico Border,” documents the white supremacist backgrounds of the leaders of the armed vigilantes patrolling the border in Arizona (it’s not posted on their web site so call them to get a copy). Further investigations are warranted by State of Arizona and Federal law-enforcement officials because of the suspicious context of ARMED white-supremacist VIGILANTES. Hopefully, the murderers will be uncovered and caught after the State of Arizona and the Federal government investigate the murders, but I do suspect that it was the white supremacists. It is a fact though that these white-supremacists patrolling the border are ARMED VIGILANTES because they are using firearms to illegally detain border crossers; only U.S. immigration officials have the legal authority to enforce U.S. immigration laws, which are Federal administrative laws. It is a crime (kidnapping) and illegal act (false imprisonment) for private citizens to “detain” people based on a suspicion regarding race and national origin, as they are not legally authorized to inspect people for citizenship and permanent residence (also a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964). Illegal aliens still have due process rights under U.S. immigration laws and the Constitution.
The estimates of the number of illegal aliens are just that: estimates based on the most information, data and records available. The INS estimates the number at 8 million (2.9%) and Peyton Knight estimates it at 11 million (3.9%) although he does not cite his source for that number nor reference any study for it. I have cited the range to show that even Knight’s higher figure is not significant relative to the total U.S. population of 281 million, but I go with the INS figure given that Knight doesn’t identify his source or study.
Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 12, 2003 at 8:04 PM
One incident of 1 ton of marijuana walked across the border does not prove that most drugs are smuggled into the country by that method; motor vehicles, planes and boats can transport much larger volumes. How many tons of drugs are smuggled into this country? What percentage does one ton represent? I would still say that most drugs are not walked across the borders, but obviously that does not mean that it never happens. One incident represents one hundred percent of itself (now that’s an ingenious analysis!); but if you want to use that incident to claim that it is represents the national picture, you must compare it to the national figures.
An article previously cited by Leslie said that one out of four hospitals was closed down in Conchise County, which is 25% or a minority; even 33% (one out of three hospitals) is still a minority. I don’t know if the hospital that shut down had bad management, went bankrupt and blamed illegal aliens for their fiscal problems hoping for a Federal or State bail out (medical costs are extremely expensive and many citizens also do not have medical insurance, which is a national problem.). I haven’t audited their books. Of course, an individual or small percentage of individuals negatively impacted by illegal immigration will claim that it is a “huge” problem because it’s their personal experience. That does not mean nor prove that it is a national crisis. Conchise County, Arizona does not equal 50 states in neither geography nor population. I would argue that Los Angeles County (the largest county in the U.S. in terms of population and illegal immigration) and the five counties (boroughs) of New York City are much more representative of the national immigrant experience as the two largest hubs for immigration, both legal and illegal, both historically and in the present.
It’s a rhetorical debate on whether our country is a republic or democracy. 1787 was 216 years ago; we are living in the present. Call it what you want. I still vote. Politicians are still elected at all levels of government (the electoral college bases its vote for the President according to the outcome of the popular vote for each state). The Constitution, Bill of Rights, Civil Rights Act and the rule of law are still in force.
Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 12, 2003 at 8:09 PM
I have cited my sources for my arguments and facts more than anyone else in this debate and read the references others cite. I address the substance of my opponents’ arguments although I do admit to engaging in the name calling myself in response to the personal attacks against me; mea culpa (I am only human). I am proud to be the herpes disease that mentally scars white supremacists and causes them intellectual pain. At least I am not the hate and/or scapegoating cancer on America’s soul.
Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 12, 2003 at 8:15 PM
Hahahahahahaha GC you are a Liar, and the truth is not in you!
Now run along . . . Mammon is calling you!
Posted by Hahahahahahaha! on Mar 13, 2003 at 8:52 AM
Mr. Hahaha/One Who Knows (NOT), I laugh at you because you cannot refute the facts and law; therefore, you call me a liar. Show me where I lied point by point and provide references to contest the facts. As I said before, when you have no argument and poor debating skills, you resort to calling me a liar. Vern likes to go off on irrelevant analogies and talk about “common sense”; in a country of 281 million people, which individual’s “common sense” is “real” and whose is not? It’s subjective because each individual thinks that his/her personal experience is “real” and applies to everyone. The whole point of statistics is to find out what the majority thinks or does, to understand the big picture in order to overcome individual relativism. Vern needs to read Peter Berger and Thomas Luckmann’s “Social Construction of Reality.” Sounds like you guys may have mental deficiency problems. You proved my point that the problem with the U.S. economy is that in this global information age, three out of four people in this country are uneducated as only 24.4% of the population has college or graduate degrees ( http://factfinder.census.gov/bf/_lang=en_vt_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U_DP2_geo_id=01000US.html )and cannot keep up in the competitive economic race; the free enterprise system is based on competition. 2.9% of illegal aliens are not taking away all the jobs of 97.1% of the total U.S. population so stop using them as scapegoats.
Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 14, 2003 at 9:52 AM
Sounds like “Good Christian”, is really “Grand Dragon”, trying to focus attention on the Southwest, while he does his evil in the Northeast!
Clever!
Posted by Hahahahahahaha! on Mar 14, 2003 at 10:08 AM
Hahaha/One Who Knows (NOT): your last post speaks for itself in terms of your lack of intellect.
Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 14, 2003 at 10:14 AM
Grand Dragon who calls yourself “a Good Christian”! Hahahahahahaha!
Posted by Hahahahahahahaha! on Mar 14, 2003 at 11:11 PM
Hello Good Christina & One Who Knows! Great debating, if you can call it that anymore? Asa Hutchinson (Homeland Security) was here in Arizona last week to visit the border communities. Of course there were pro & anti-immigration issues galore. Keep up the good work.
Posted by Leslie on Mar 17, 2003 at 6:42 PM
Good Christian, if we all could get past the non-productive name calling, I think what some are saying is that, while the problem may not be global (I am not totally convinced though you argue it well), the problem is local for some places, especially border towns. You might want to address that. And discussions are given about the cost of illegal immigration. I still wonder what the cost of stopping it would be.
Posted by wandering spirit on Mar 17, 2003 at 8:52 PM
Wandering Spirit, I pressed Vern and One Who Knows (NOT) for a break down of New York City’s and Conchise County, Arizona’s share of the $5 billion dollar national cost (according to Peyton Knight’s “Immigration Insanity” article) to provide public education and health care to illegal aliens relative to the size of their local economies and budgets, to no avail. I made a preliminary analysis assuming that NYC bore the entire national cost of $5 billion and found that it represents 12.5% of NYC’s $40 billion budget, a small minority. I also addressed the issue of one out of four hospitals closing in Conchise County. It’s really not my job to do their research for them when they are the ones claiming that the impact is bankrupting the country (not the case at the Federal and State levels). The least they can do is provide the cost figures at the local level. My bet is that there might be strain at the local level, but it is not overwhelming costs.
I also tried to address your issue in a previous post of the possible redeployment of all U.S. troops to guard the 2,00 mile border or the cost of expansion of military personnel given the existing military budget. However, I think it is up to you to look into the issue further for detailed cost projections.
Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 19, 2003 at 12:20 AM
You have been invited MANY time to prove your INSANE rant “How many people would admit to committing murder knowing that they would go to jail for 20 years to life or receive the death penalty? Should we expect the white supremacists to step forward and admit to committing murder?”
You were shown many more examples of financial harm, and criminal acts caused by the illegal aliens, than you have shown actions of the
Posted by Hahahahahahahaha! on Mar 19, 2003 at 7:56 AM
Good Christian, you are a good bit more knowledgable in government expenditures. I was hoping you had an idea or a reference about the costs of guarding the borders. I would think someone(s) would have studied this question, especially in the light of terrorism. Similar studies regarding the “drug war” are available. In any case, I honestly do not have figures or know of any studies. But I would guess the cost figures of trying to totally shut down illegal immigration at the borders would support your arguments regarding the significance of the present cost of illegal aliens.
I have not heard of a democrat nor a republican administration that seriously considered stationing the military along our borders. I think there is more to this than just cost. I do not think it would be good for public relations with our neighbors Canada and Mexico. (I wonder if they would put their militaries at the borders as a response). And if a Mexican or Canadian citizen were to be killed on their soil, would this be an act of war?
Posted by wandering spirit on Mar 19, 2003 at 11:39 AM
In the Gulf War we lost a few hundred people. This was a small percentage of the total number who served. Less than 1 percent. But percentages mean nothing, and are insulting, to the families of those few hundred. They suffered total loss. There are many people who are having employment/economic problems. They see many Mexicans (and others) working, they assume the Mexicans are illegal, and they become bitter thinking their problems are worsened, maybe even caused, by these Mexicans. The unemployed people do not care about global conditions, only their present situation. Now, I think the people are wrong to blame the Mexicans for their problems. I think you have said the same. But I can somewhat understand “where these people are coming from.” I might be way-off, but that is what I was referring to in my earlier post.
Posted by wandering spirit on Mar 19, 2003 at 12:04 PM
Hahaha: address my 3/12/03, 9:04 pm and 3/9/03, 12:26 pm posts regarding the white-supremacist issue and the original point of R.M. Arrieta’s “Armed and Dangerous” article. An inductive argument (case study or individual examples) must prove representation (that it occurs the majority of the time). Citing a few incidents does not prove the national norm; you are mired in individual relativism. Compare the incidents you cite to the national figures as I have done. We all know that you call me a liar because you have no argument and debate poorly. I guess my expectations of you are too high thinking that you might understand epistemology.
Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 20, 2003 at 7:54 PM
Wandering Spirit: In FY 2004, the Department of Homeland Security’s (DHS) Bureau of Border & Transportation Security (BBS) will have 100,000 employees and a budget of $18 billion; this is a dramatic increase in staff (1,011%) and funding (1,400%) compared to the former INS’ Border Patrol workforce of 9,000 agents and $1.2 billion budget in FY 2001. 70,000 of the 100,000 employees will be assigned to border patrol. Over the next few years, we’ll see to what extent this stems the flow of illegal immigration. Sources: http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/jan_2003-01.html http://www.us-mex.org/borderlines/2001/bl82/bl82brief.html http://www.nnirr.org/news/press_releases/2003_02_27.html
Based on these figures, including overhead and equipment costs, the cost of patrolling the border is $126,000 per employee (70% of the $18 billion given that 70,000 of the 100,000 employees will be assigned to border patrol). To the best of my recollection, the U.S. armed forces have 2.7 million soldiers and reservists. Based on DHS’s budget allocation, a rough estimate of the cost of adding an additional 1 million federal workers to patrol the border would be $126 billion and 2.7 million workers would cost $340.2 billion. For more information about the DHS’s budget, see: http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?theme=12 . Using Dept. of Defense figures, the cost of military personnel including overhead and equipment costs is $135,185 per soldier (FY 2003 budget of $365 billion divided by 2.7 million soldiers and reservists). As I stated in my previous post, I doubt the President or Congress would ever authorize the re-deployment of existing U.S. military forces stationed abroad to protect our global economic and national security interests instead to patrol the U.S.-Mexico border to stem the annual flow of 360,000 illegal aliens.
Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 20, 2003 at 7:56 PM
Wandering Spirit: Remember that the current (FY 2003) military budget is $365 billion (budgeted $380 billion for FY 2004) and $493 billion for Social Security and Medicare (budgeted $513 billion for FY 2004) (see http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2004/budget.html ). According to the IRS Form 1040 instruction booklet, in FY 2001, defense and social security made up 56% of Federal outlays (see pg.2: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf ). We are also running a $200 billion deficit for FY 2003, which is projected to increase to $300 billion for FY 2004. The Iraq War is not even included in either the FY 2003 or FY 2004 budget and the Congressional Budget Office projects that the cost of the war will be $6-9 billion per month to fight and $1 to 4 billion per month to occupy Iraq (see http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=3822&sequence=0 ); experts predict that the Iraq occupation will last between 5-10 years (for an interesting article on the cost of all U.S. wars, see: http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0321/p02s02-woiq.htm ). There is also the Social Security issue of the insufficient funds to cover the retirement of the baby-boom generation in 10 years. See economist Paul Krugman’s (Ph.D. in economics from MIT) 3/11/03 New York Times article, “A Fiscal Train Wreck,” http://www.pkarchive.org/column/031103.html .
I would say that given the current finances of the Federal Government, the cost of sealing off the border is not worth it. Tamar Jacoby of the conservative Manhattan Institute says that the economic cost of sealing both the Canada and Mexico borders would undermine the whole point of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) as Canada and Mexico are America’s two biggest trading partners; see her 10/25/01 New York Post article, “For Safer Borders: We Don’t Need To Close ‘Em: http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_nypost-for_safer.htm .
Posted by A Believer of Democracy and the Rule of Law on Mar 20, 2003 at 8:01 PM
Good Christian, and brother by the way: You do have a better handle on this. That sure is going to be a big increase in the number of people patroling - an order of magnitude increase. It will be interesting to see the effects of more patrols. I think the increase in personnel is mainly for terrorism, not for stopping illegal immigration. A good number of these patrol guards will be at the Canadian border too, which is not a problem area for illegal immigration.
I do not forsee the military guarding the borders either. The military is not trained for this type of activity. And there are other reasons for not having a big military presence at the borders - cost, politics, relationships, etc. Regarding troops in other parts of the world, there might be some redeployments because of recent events and changing conditions. But I think we will still have troops throughout the world, as opposed to bringing them all to US territories.
Posted by wandering spirit on Mar 21, 2003 at 4:58 PM
Illegals are a BIG problem in this country. They jump the borders, they take our jobs & our gov’t handouts.
What about the 3,000,000 + homeless children living on the streets because their parents didn’t want them? Who is taking care of them?
We should help our own first & then worry about others.
Posted by TY on Apr 12, 2003 at 8:53 AM
so much hate in these posts… hate towards immigrants, hate towards immigrant sympathizers, hate towards murderers, rapists, vigilantes and anyone who is sinful in thought or action. what we must realize is we are all sinners, we are all scum. “so before you fuck it all, go fuck yourself”-NOFX
Posted by just a person on Jun 5, 2003 at 4:38 PM
If the Mexican consulate is so concerned about these civilian patrols, then maybe they should do something that would prevent these people from wanting to leave Mexico.
We are being OVERRUN by illegal immigrants. It’s time we do something about it. Let’s take our troops out of S.Korea and put them on the borders instead.
No Mas Mujados!
Posted by James H on Jun 16, 2003 at 9:31 AM
Too bad the Native Americans weren’t successful in keeping out the white man.
Too bad a former “illegal immigrant” was among the first to die for “his” country in Iraq.
Too bad illegal immigrants do the dirty work for Americans. Migrants live in conditions worse than that of most Americans pets. Why? So Americans can have cheaper produce.
Any spoiled American in an illegal immigrants shoes would do the exact same thing - seek a better life.
“Americans” left Europe on just such a search.
Posted by Rick on Jun 20, 2003 at 8:13 PM
Let’s see…these people are breaking the law. They are comming in droves across our borders and invading our coutry. The federal government is doing nothing to protect our borders or it’s citizens from this invaison. To me these people are only doing what the federal government should have been doing long ago. I call the heroes not criminals. The criminals are those crossing our borders illegally, and beleive me people are getting very tired of this invaison.
Posted by Bear Wolf on Aug 5, 2003 at 10:50 PM
If I’m not mistaken the economy of some States, in particular CA, actually rely upon the cheap labor provided by the illegal alien community particularity in the areas of domestic services (including child care) and agriculture (harvests). To me this is nothing more than a case of good ol’ Yankee exploitation.
Posted by Bernard on Sep 4, 2003 at 5:58 PM
All right, Bernard. A person who in one sentence reminded everybody what this is REALLY all about. Cheap labor.
Companies that hire because they don’t like paying wages that American citizens demand.
Companies that publish advertizements in Mexican newspapers enticing poor, unemployed Mexicans to come work for them.
Who among you in these commentary pages has not been to Mexico and been so blind as to be able to ignore the grinding poverty of it’s underclass?
Why don’t those vigilantes go after some of the employers without whom most of those desperados looking for a means of feeding their families would not risk life and limb crossing into, (judging by most of the comments herein), ENEMY territory? When Cuban, Chinese, Polish, Soviet, East German, etc., refugees did the same thing we tended mostly to cheer them because they’d escaped, OH MY GOD, Godless Communist countries, thus proving, no doubt, just how wonderful our way of life is compared to COMMUNISM. It’s really amazing that you all fail to remember our own, “Corporate Exodus”, into Mexico; how hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs were nonchalantly wrested from American workers. So the migrations are a two-way affair. Why aren’t the executives of those corporations shorn of their citizenship and rounded up by vigilantes? Yeah, just keep on knocking each other and a bunch of impoverished, starving human beings over our skulls while the Fat Cats rip us off coming and going. It might make some of you blame- mongers feel some momentary satisfaction, venting your rage on assigned scapegoats who are conveniently visible…but when you wake up from time to time, you’re still gettin’ shit on by the five percenters while they laugh their filthy rich pig faces off over our stupidity. And you still have to live in fear about losing your job, feeding your kids and keeping them out of the continuous wars. You still have to worry about: with what, and how you’re gonna live once you’re 65…if some environmental or technological disaster allows you to live that long!
Posted by Dom Mastroserio on Sep 10, 2003 at 6:29 PM
Inscription on the Statue of Liberty: “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”
The United States has always been a nation of immigrants starting with the illegal English colonists who dispossesed the Native Americans of their land through violence. We have always welcomed immigrants to help us build our nation with their labor from the Chinese, to the Germans, Irish, Italians, Japanese, Philipinos, Mexicans, Salvadorans, Russians, Jews, etc.
U.S. immigration laws are Federal administrative laws whose function is to regulate the flow of tourist visitors, immigrant residents, and naturalization of immigrant residents. Immigration laws are not criminal laws. Violations of them are not criminal acts. To give you a sense of what an administrative law means, speeding or parking tickets are violations of state and local administrative laws.
The problem with our current immigration laws is that only 10,000-20,000 persons per country annually are allowed to legally immigrate. This unrealistic quota provides a huge incentive to immigrate illegally and this creates problems for workers rights as employers want illegal immigrant workers because they can pay them less and play them off against citizen and legal-resident workers. Morevoer, the Federal government does nothing to punish employers who hire illegal immigrants because of the political lobbying power of corporations.
Final point: for those who believe in the superiority of Europeans, European civilization also relied on slavery and colonialism, gave us two World Wars, and created fascism and communism. Anyone who knows history knows that origins of democracy lies in Africa as the ancient Greek intellectuals went to Egypt to study.
God Bless America! Land of Opportunity for All.
Posted by Statue of Liberty on Sep 28, 2003 at 1:23 PM
My biggest concern with this piece is that Ms. Arrieta has posed illegal immigration as a human rights issue. It isn’t. The treatment of illegal immigrants is. By definition people entering the country at non-official entry points, without the appropriate paperwork, etc. are violating US laws. Illegal immigrants come from other ethnic backgrounds. In many cases the treatment remains the same, for example, illegal asian immigrants on the West Coast and on the East Coast have been treated inhumanely both by their smugglers and by the people (US citizens or residents) for whom they labor. Arguably, the real issues are: 1. How can we maintain the rule of law in regard to our borders; 2. How can we do so in a humane way. Oversimplification of this issue polarizes it. The US needs to reexamine the immigration quotas we’ve established, the criteria for issuing work visas, etc., and her citizens need to be active participants in this process. When I read articles on this topic I’m always hoping that someone will examine the political and historical background of the entire issue and illuminate the statistical reasons people aren’t being admitted to the country legally. This is obviously a topic Ms. Arrieta writes about with passion, I wish that she had also written about it in depth and contextualized it with facts regarding illegal aliens of other ethnic groups, their treatment, and explored it from a legal standpoint.
Posted by A. Dixson on Nov 2, 2003 at 11:26 PM
Personally I find that immigrants from Mexico, Honduras, the Pacific Rim and the Muslim countries to be foar more democratically inclined, hard working and good neighbors to have.
If the actions of our country of late are any indication of our character we need the role models.
Posted by Michael French on Jan 3, 2004 at 9:25 PM
I don’t understand why you are sticking up for individuals that are obviously BREAKING THE LAW. These civilians are simply exercising their constitutional rights by protecting their land and stopping crime. If you want to come to the USA, get a green card. You do not deserve to call yourself a US citizen.
Posted by Keith Weaver on Mar 14, 2004 at 12:27 AM
the owners of the land are coming home to roost or get a piece of what belong to them. please read your his-story well and if you understand what human needs are your wont be talking like that. peace to all the human family.
Posted by Rahim on Mar 16, 2004 at 12:14 AM
Who stoped our fathers when they came to this part of the world and kill the inhabitants of this land and took over?? killings and terrorizing has been passed on to us and that is exactly what we are doing.
Some day to come, bottom rail shall be the top and top rail be the bottom. It’s a divine law.
Posted by Rahim on Mar 16, 2004 at 12:20 AM
to Paul whit: God is watching your every move. The day for you will come. Paul remember that this land belonged to first God and second to the native Americans who lived here long long time ago. As you have done so shall be done unto you. you will surelly reap what you have sowed.
Posted by Rahim on Mar 16, 2004 at 12:36 AM
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Reader Comments
TO:: Good Christian, The one thing I can say about you is - you are a good debate opponent.
Now, YOU show where vigilantes, even .0001%, has “decide that they want to take the law into their own hands and become police, judge, jury and executioner.” even ONCE!
Examples have been given, where MEXICANS have killed MEXICANS, and MEXICANS have LEFT Mexicans to DIE, and you have spouted off TOTALLY unsupported with even .0000001% that it was
GC you promised you were gone several times, but just like herpes, or a worthless check, you keep coming back! Hahahahahahaha!
GC do you even read the idiocy you write?
Even you ridiculous numbers, change from post to post! Not that the number you
One Who Knows (NOT): You did not read carefully. The murders are still unsolved; no one was arrested, put on trial, nor convicted (i.e, it is NOT A FACT yet that either coyotes or white supremacists did it). There is scant evidence that coyotes did it if you examine the evidence presented more closely in the 1/6/03 article by Susan Carroll in the Arizona Republic, “Series of Killings Tied to People-Smuggling.” (See my 3/9/03, 12:26 PM post). Border Action Network’s report “Hate or Heroism: Vigilantes on the Arizona-Mexico Border,” documents the white supremacist backgrounds of the leaders of the armed vigilantes patrolling the border in Arizona (it’s not posted on their web site so call them to get a copy). Further investigations are warranted by State of Arizona and Federal law-enforcement officials because of the suspicious context of ARMED white-supremacist VIGILANTES. Hopefully, the murderers will be uncovered and caught after the State of Arizona and the Federal government investigate the murders, but I do suspect that it was the white supremacists. It is a fact though that these white-supremacists patrolling the border are ARMED VIGILANTES because they are using firearms to illegally detain border crossers; only U.S. immigration officials have the legal authority to enforce U.S. immigration laws, which are Federal administrative laws. It is a crime (kidnapping) and illegal act (false imprisonment) for private citizens to “detain” people based on a suspicion regarding race and national origin, as they are not legally authorized to inspect people for citizenship and permanent residence (also a violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964). Illegal aliens still have due process rights under U.S. immigration laws and the Constitution.
The estimates of the number of illegal aliens are just that: estimates based on the most information, data and records available. The INS estimates the number at 8 million (2.9%) and Peyton Knight estimates it at 11 million (3.9%) although he does not cite his source for that number nor reference any study for it. I have cited the range to show that even Knight’s higher figure is not significant relative to the total U.S. population of 281 million, but I go with the INS figure given that Knight doesn’t identify his source or study.
One incident of 1 ton of marijuana walked across the border does not prove that most drugs are smuggled into the country by that method; motor vehicles, planes and boats can transport much larger volumes. How many tons of drugs are smuggled into this country? What percentage does one ton represent? I would still say that most drugs are not walked across the borders, but obviously that does not mean that it never happens. One incident represents one hundred percent of itself (now that’s an ingenious analysis!); but if you want to use that incident to claim that it is represents the national picture, you must compare it to the national figures.
An article previously cited by Leslie said that one out of four hospitals was closed down in Conchise County, which is 25% or a minority; even 33% (one out of three hospitals) is still a minority. I don’t know if the hospital that shut down had bad management, went bankrupt and blamed illegal aliens for their fiscal problems hoping for a Federal or State bail out (medical costs are extremely expensive and many citizens also do not have medical insurance, which is a national problem.). I haven’t audited their books. Of course, an individual or small percentage of individuals negatively impacted by illegal immigration will claim that it is a “huge” problem because it’s their personal experience. That does not mean nor prove that it is a national crisis. Conchise County, Arizona does not equal 50 states in neither geography nor population. I would argue that Los Angeles County (the largest county in the U.S. in terms of population and illegal immigration) and the five counties (boroughs) of New York City are much more representative of the national immigrant experience as the two largest hubs for immigration, both legal and illegal, both historically and in the present.
It’s a rhetorical debate on whether our country is a republic or democracy. 1787 was 216 years ago; we are living in the present. Call it what you want. I still vote. Politicians are still elected at all levels of government (the electoral college bases its vote for the President according to the outcome of the popular vote for each state). The Constitution, Bill of Rights, Civil Rights Act and the rule of law are still in force.
I have cited my sources for my arguments and facts more than anyone else in this debate and read the references others cite. I address the substance of my opponents’ arguments although I do admit to engaging in the name calling myself in response to the personal attacks against me; mea culpa (I am only human). I am proud to be the herpes disease that mentally scars white supremacists and causes them intellectual pain. At least I am not the hate and/or scapegoating cancer on America’s soul.
Hahahahahahaha GC you are a Liar, and the truth is not in you!
Now run along . . . Mammon is calling you!
Mr. Hahaha/One Who Knows (NOT), I laugh at you because you cannot refute the facts and law; therefore, you call me a liar. Show me where I lied point by point and provide references to contest the facts. As I said before, when you have no argument and poor debating skills, you resort to calling me a liar. Vern likes to go off on irrelevant analogies and talk about “common sense”; in a country of 281 million people, which individual’s “common sense” is “real” and whose is not? It’s subjective because each individual thinks that his/her personal experience is “real” and applies to everyone. The whole point of statistics is to find out what the majority thinks or does, to understand the big picture in order to overcome individual relativism. Vern needs to read Peter Berger and Thomas Luckmann’s “Social Construction of Reality.” Sounds like you guys may have mental deficiency problems. You proved my point that the problem with the U.S. economy is that in this global information age, three out of four people in this country are uneducated as only 24.4% of the population has college or graduate degrees ( http://factfinder.census.gov/bf/_lang=en_vt_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U_DP2_geo_id=01000US.html )and cannot keep up in the competitive economic race; the free enterprise system is based on competition. 2.9% of illegal aliens are not taking away all the jobs of 97.1% of the total U.S. population so stop using them as scapegoats.
Sounds like “Good Christian”, is really “Grand Dragon”, trying to focus attention on the Southwest, while he does his evil in the Northeast!
Clever!
Hahaha/One Who Knows (NOT): your last post speaks for itself in terms of your lack of intellect.
Grand Dragon who calls yourself “a Good Christian”! Hahahahahahaha!
Hello Good Christina & One Who Knows! Great debating, if you can call it that anymore? Asa Hutchinson (Homeland Security) was here in Arizona last week to visit the border communities. Of course there were pro & anti-immigration issues galore. Keep up the good work.
Good Christian, if we all could get past the non-productive name calling, I think what some are saying is that, while the problem may not be global (I am not totally convinced though you argue it well), the problem is local for some places, especially border towns. You might want to address that. And discussions are given about the cost of illegal immigration. I still wonder what the cost of stopping it would be.
Wandering Spirit, I pressed Vern and One Who Knows (NOT) for a break down of New York City’s and Conchise County, Arizona’s share of the $5 billion dollar national cost (according to Peyton Knight’s “Immigration Insanity” article) to provide public education and health care to illegal aliens relative to the size of their local economies and budgets, to no avail. I made a preliminary analysis assuming that NYC bore the entire national cost of $5 billion and found that it represents 12.5% of NYC’s $40 billion budget, a small minority. I also addressed the issue of one out of four hospitals closing in Conchise County. It’s really not my job to do their research for them when they are the ones claiming that the impact is bankrupting the country (not the case at the Federal and State levels). The least they can do is provide the cost figures at the local level. My bet is that there might be strain at the local level, but it is not overwhelming costs.
I also tried to address your issue in a previous post of the possible redeployment of all U.S. troops to guard the 2,00 mile border or the cost of expansion of military personnel given the existing military budget. However, I think it is up to you to look into the issue further for detailed cost projections.
You have been invited MANY time to prove your INSANE rant “How many people would admit to committing murder knowing that they would go to jail for 20 years to life or receive the death penalty? Should we expect the white supremacists to step forward and admit to committing murder?”
You were shown many more examples of financial harm, and criminal acts caused by the illegal aliens, than you have shown actions of the
Good Christian, you are a good bit more knowledgable in government expenditures. I was hoping you had an idea or a reference about the costs of guarding the borders. I would think someone(s) would have studied this question, especially in the light of terrorism. Similar studies regarding the “drug war” are available. In any case, I honestly do not have figures or know of any studies. But I would guess the cost figures of trying to totally shut down illegal immigration at the borders would support your arguments regarding the significance of the present cost of illegal aliens.
I have not heard of a democrat nor a republican administration that seriously considered stationing the military along our borders. I think there is more to this than just cost. I do not think it would be good for public relations with our neighbors Canada and Mexico. (I wonder if they would put their militaries at the borders as a response). And if a Mexican or Canadian citizen were to be killed on their soil, would this be an act of war?
In the Gulf War we lost a few hundred people. This was a small percentage of the total number who served. Less than 1 percent. But percentages mean nothing, and are insulting, to the families of those few hundred. They suffered total loss. There are many people who are having employment/economic problems. They see many Mexicans (and others) working, they assume the Mexicans are illegal, and they become bitter thinking their problems are worsened, maybe even caused, by these Mexicans. The unemployed people do not care about global conditions, only their present situation. Now, I think the people are wrong to blame the Mexicans for their problems. I think you have said the same. But I can somewhat understand “where these people are coming from.” I might be way-off, but that is what I was referring to in my earlier post.
Hahaha: address my 3/12/03, 9:04 pm and 3/9/03, 12:26 pm posts regarding the white-supremacist issue and the original point of R.M. Arrieta’s “Armed and Dangerous” article. An inductive argument (case study or individual examples) must prove representation (that it occurs the majority of the time). Citing a few incidents does not prove the national norm; you are mired in individual relativism. Compare the incidents you cite to the national figures as I have done. We all know that you call me a liar because you have no argument and debate poorly. I guess my expectations of you are too high thinking that you might understand epistemology.
Wandering Spirit: In FY 2004, the Department of Homeland Security’s (DHS) Bureau of Border & Transportation Security (BBS) will have 100,000 employees and a budget of $18 billion; this is a dramatic increase in staff (1,011%) and funding (1,400%) compared to the former INS’ Border Patrol workforce of 9,000 agents and $1.2 billion budget in FY 2001. 70,000 of the 100,000 employees will be assigned to border patrol. Over the next few years, we’ll see to what extent this stems the flow of illegal immigration. Sources: http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/jan_2003-01.html http://www.us-mex.org/borderlines/2001/bl82/bl82brief.html http://www.nnirr.org/news/press_releases/2003_02_27.html
Based on these figures, including overhead and equipment costs, the cost of patrolling the border is $126,000 per employee (70% of the $18 billion given that 70,000 of the 100,000 employees will be assigned to border patrol). To the best of my recollection, the U.S. armed forces have 2.7 million soldiers and reservists. Based on DHS’s budget allocation, a rough estimate of the cost of adding an additional 1 million federal workers to patrol the border would be $126 billion and 2.7 million workers would cost $340.2 billion. For more information about the DHS’s budget, see: http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?theme=12 . Using Dept. of Defense figures, the cost of military personnel including overhead and equipment costs is $135,185 per soldier (FY 2003 budget of $365 billion divided by 2.7 million soldiers and reservists). As I stated in my previous post, I doubt the President or Congress would ever authorize the re-deployment of existing U.S. military forces stationed abroad to protect our global economic and national security interests instead to patrol the U.S.-Mexico border to stem the annual flow of 360,000 illegal aliens.
Wandering Spirit: Remember that the current (FY 2003) military budget is $365 billion (budgeted $380 billion for FY 2004) and $493 billion for Social Security and Medicare (budgeted $513 billion for FY 2004) (see http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2004/budget.html ). According to the IRS Form 1040 instruction booklet, in FY 2001, defense and social security made up 56% of Federal outlays (see pg.2: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040gi.pdf ). We are also running a $200 billion deficit for FY 2003, which is projected to increase to $300 billion for FY 2004. The Iraq War is not even included in either the FY 2003 or FY 2004 budget and the Congressional Budget Office projects that the cost of the war will be $6-9 billion per month to fight and $1 to 4 billion per month to occupy Iraq (see http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=3822&sequence=0 ); experts predict that the Iraq occupation will last between 5-10 years (for an interesting article on the cost of all U.S. wars, see: http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0321/p02s02-woiq.htm ). There is also the Social Security issue of the insufficient funds to cover the retirement of the baby-boom generation in 10 years. See economist Paul Krugman’s (Ph.D. in economics from MIT) 3/11/03 New York Times article, “A Fiscal Train Wreck,” http://www.pkarchive.org/column/031103.html .
I would say that given the current finances of the Federal Government, the cost of sealing off the border is not worth it. Tamar Jacoby of the conservative Manhattan Institute says that the economic cost of sealing both the Canada and Mexico borders would undermine the whole point of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) as Canada and Mexico are America’s two biggest trading partners; see her 10/25/01 New York Post article, “For Safer Borders: We Don’t Need To Close ‘Em: http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_nypost-for_safer.htm .
Good Christian, and brother by the way: You do have a better handle on this. That sure is going to be a big increase in the number of people patroling - an order of magnitude increase. It will be interesting to see the effects of more patrols. I think the increase in personnel is mainly for terrorism, not for stopping illegal immigration. A good number of these patrol guards will be at the Canadian border too, which is not a problem area for illegal immigration.
I do not forsee the military guarding the borders either. The military is not trained for this type of activity. And there are other reasons for not having a big military presence at the borders - cost, politics, relationships, etc. Regarding troops in other parts of the world, there might be some redeployments because of recent events and changing conditions. But I think we will still have troops throughout the world, as opposed to bringing them all to US territories.
Illegals are a BIG problem in this country. They jump the borders, they take our jobs & our gov’t handouts.
What about the 3,000,000 + homeless children living on the streets because their parents didn’t want them? Who is taking care of them?
We should help our own first & then worry about others.
so much hate in these posts… hate towards immigrants, hate towards immigrant sympathizers, hate towards murderers, rapists, vigilantes and anyone who is sinful in thought or action. what we must realize is we are all sinners, we are all scum. “so before you fuck it all, go fuck yourself”-NOFX
If the Mexican consulate is so concerned about these civilian patrols, then maybe they should do something that would prevent these people from wanting to leave Mexico.
We are being OVERRUN by illegal immigrants. It’s time we do something about it. Let’s take our troops out of S.Korea and put them on the borders instead.
No Mas Mujados!
Too bad the Native Americans weren’t successful in keeping out the white man.
Too bad a former “illegal immigrant” was among the first to die for “his” country in Iraq.
Too bad illegal immigrants do the dirty work for Americans. Migrants live in conditions worse than that of most Americans pets. Why? So Americans can have cheaper produce.
Any spoiled American in an illegal immigrants shoes would do the exact same thing - seek a better life.
“Americans” left Europe on just such a search.
Let’s see…these people are breaking the law. They are comming in droves across our borders and invading our coutry. The federal government is doing nothing to protect our borders or it’s citizens from this invaison. To me these people are only doing what the federal government should have been doing long ago. I call the heroes not criminals. The criminals are those crossing our borders illegally, and beleive me people are getting very tired of this invaison.
If I’m not mistaken the economy of some States, in particular CA, actually rely upon the cheap labor provided by the illegal alien community particularity in the areas of domestic services (including child care) and agriculture (harvests). To me this is nothing more than a case of good ol’ Yankee exploitation.
All right, Bernard. A person who in one sentence reminded everybody what this is REALLY all about. Cheap labor.
Companies that hire because they don’t like paying wages that American citizens demand.
Companies that publish advertizements in Mexican newspapers enticing poor, unemployed Mexicans to come work for them.
Who among you in these commentary pages has not been to Mexico and been so blind as to be able to ignore the grinding poverty of it’s underclass?
Why don’t those vigilantes go after some of the employers without whom most of those desperados looking for a means of feeding their families would not risk life and limb crossing into, (judging by most of the comments herein), ENEMY territory? When Cuban, Chinese, Polish, Soviet, East German, etc., refugees did the same thing we tended mostly to cheer them because they’d escaped, OH MY GOD, Godless Communist countries, thus proving, no doubt, just how wonderful our way of life is compared to COMMUNISM. It’s really amazing that you all fail to remember our own, “Corporate Exodus”, into Mexico; how hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs were nonchalantly wrested from American workers. So the migrations are a two-way affair. Why aren’t the executives of those corporations shorn of their citizenship and rounded up by vigilantes? Yeah, just keep on knocking each other and a bunch of impoverished, starving human beings over our skulls while the Fat Cats rip us off coming and going. It might make some of you blame- mongers feel some momentary satisfaction, venting your rage on assigned scapegoats who are conveniently visible…but when you wake up from time to time, you’re still gettin’ shit on by the five percenters while they laugh their filthy rich pig faces off over our stupidity. And you still have to live in fear about losing your job, feeding your kids and keeping them out of the continuous wars. You still have to worry about: with what, and how you’re gonna live once you’re 65…if some environmental or technological disaster allows you to live that long!
Inscription on the Statue of Liberty: “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”
The United States has always been a nation of immigrants starting with the illegal English colonists who dispossesed the Native Americans of their land through violence. We have always welcomed immigrants to help us build our nation with their labor from the Chinese, to the Germans, Irish, Italians, Japanese, Philipinos, Mexicans, Salvadorans, Russians, Jews, etc.
U.S. immigration laws are Federal administrative laws whose function is to regulate the flow of tourist visitors, immigrant residents, and naturalization of immigrant residents. Immigration laws are not criminal laws. Violations of them are not criminal acts. To give you a sense of what an administrative law means, speeding or parking tickets are violations of state and local administrative laws.
The problem with our current immigration laws is that only 10,000-20,000 persons per country annually are allowed to legally immigrate. This unrealistic quota provides a huge incentive to immigrate illegally and this creates problems for workers rights as employers want illegal immigrant workers because they can pay them less and play them off against citizen and legal-resident workers. Morevoer, the Federal government does nothing to punish employers who hire illegal immigrants because of the political lobbying power of corporations.
Final point: for those who believe in the superiority of Europeans, European civilization also relied on slavery and colonialism, gave us two World Wars, and created fascism and communism. Anyone who knows history knows that origins of democracy lies in Africa as the ancient Greek intellectuals went to Egypt to study.
God Bless America! Land of Opportunity for All.
My biggest concern with this piece is that Ms. Arrieta has posed illegal immigration as a human rights issue. It isn’t. The treatment of illegal immigrants is. By definition people entering the country at non-official entry points, without the appropriate paperwork, etc. are violating US laws. Illegal immigrants come from other ethnic backgrounds. In many cases the treatment remains the same, for example, illegal asian immigrants on the West Coast and on the East Coast have been treated inhumanely both by their smugglers and by the people (US citizens or residents) for whom they labor. Arguably, the real issues are: 1. How can we maintain the rule of law in regard to our borders; 2. How can we do so in a humane way. Oversimplification of this issue polarizes it. The US needs to reexamine the immigration quotas we’ve established, the criteria for issuing work visas, etc., and her citizens need to be active participants in this process. When I read articles on this topic I’m always hoping that someone will examine the political and historical background of the entire issue and illuminate the statistical reasons people aren’t being admitted to the country legally. This is obviously a topic Ms. Arrieta writes about with passion, I wish that she had also written about it in depth and contextualized it with facts regarding illegal aliens of other ethnic groups, their treatment, and explored it from a legal standpoint.
Personally I find that immigrants from Mexico, Honduras, the Pacific Rim and the Muslim countries to be foar more democratically inclined, hard working and good neighbors to have.
If the actions of our country of late are any indication of our character we need the role models.
I don’t understand why you are sticking up for individuals that are obviously BREAKING THE LAW. These civilians are simply exercising their constitutional rights by protecting their land and stopping crime. If you want to come to the USA, get a green card. You do not deserve to call yourself a US citizen.
the owners of the land are coming home to roost or get a piece of what belong to them. please read your his-story well and if you understand what human needs are your wont be talking like that. peace to all the human family.
Who stoped our fathers when they came to this part of the world and kill the inhabitants of this land and took over?? killings and terrorizing has been passed on to us and that is exactly what we are doing.
Some day to come, bottom rail shall be the top and top rail be the bottom. It’s a divine law.
to Paul whit: God is watching your every move. The day for you will come. Paul remember that this land belonged to first God and second to the native Americans who lived here long long time ago. As you have done so shall be done unto you. you will surelly reap what you have sowed.
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