Jim Crow Redux

OK, so there is no individual or black cultural fault here? So the President failed to mention the roughly 25% of black fathers who are there for their children. Though these men should be praised, I hardly see this as something to be proud of as a society and misses the point of the speech. I tell you what should have been mentioned- the hip-hop culture that praises men for knocking up as many women as possible and taking no responsibility and celebrating black women walking around looking like prostitutes and sticking their asses out like they’re in heat 24/7. How about how great it is to be a dealer or a pimp, to carry a gun and shoot someone who “disses” you, or shoot a cop? That’s all the judicial system’s fault, right?

Posted by Bob Hays on Mar 16, 2010 at 11:14 AM

The engine that cycles an endless supply of young black men through the criminal justice system has a name (and it isn’t “racism”).  It’s called “the war on drugs,” and it is this country’s longest-running war. Readers may recall that in the 1980s it was the Black Congressional Caucus whose voices were the loudest in demanding a get-tough, zero-tolerance approach to the influx of cocaine into black neighborhoods.  Congress dutifully jacked up the penalties for crack vis-

Posted by KarlKetzer on Mar 17, 2010 at 10:44 AM

I will not argue with the facts or motive that this article represents..What I want to say is that ; first , I understood why both of the gentleman before me on this post mentioned the dreaded so-called gangsta’ rap…

Secondly , I agree , that this form of music is not helpful in bringing about the change in society that most of us would welcome….

Now the fault , as Mr.Hayes has mentioned is not in the criminal justice system but in corporate Amerika….When Hip Hop first hit the music industry ,most corporate music giants didn’t want to touch it , it was thought of as being just a fade that would pass , which of course was not true…

The artist themselves produced and distributed the music themselves…So when the music industry saw that this new brand of music was selling ,all of a sudden they wanted in on the product…But the corporations wanted to change something , and that was the content of the lyrics…

Now most , if not all of the original artist said no, no way am I going to sell out for a buck , they were already making money without the big recording companies…Also understand that the music that young folks were buying on the street was a totally different style than this so-called gangsta’ rap , it was much more party styling and such…Many of the artist were from the projects and would lyricly style about that life and how to stay positive and be productive in challenging times, in other words they were rappin , that you can overcome your current situation without guns and crime…

Now what happened next is that the large music companies said that this music was not , get this ” BLACK ENOUGH ” to be mass produced…They wanted the artists too rapp in the aforementioned gangsta’ style , and when the original artist refused , the record companies went out and created artist that would rapp in this form…Gangsta’ rap is not a product of the so-called ghetto , it’s a product of Madison Avenue…This is were it came from , and they are selling it to all of our children ; not just black children..

Now one can argue about the morals of the young people who sold out for the money , but if you were a poor kid living in the projects , and you had a chance to make what seems like legal money , what are you going to do ? ? ?  Get paid , plain and simple…

To this Blackhorse its the music industry that is to blame for this style of music , not the youth..These young folks are gettin played for fools by corporate Amerika , yet again , nothing new in Amerika…The capitalist boss , will do any and everything for a buck…If adults can fall prey to this crap , what chance do children , teenagers and young adults stand ? ? ?

Just a thought Mr. Kelter and Mr Hays…..

Just a thought….

Posted by blackhorse on Mar 23, 2010 at 1:55 PM

Additionally , what about the corporate prison complex , you know prisons for profit…Remember most of these so-called offenders are convicted of non-violent crimes , instead of probation or community work , these young so-called offenders are being sent to prisons that are privately owned and run for profit…The tax payer , which is you and me , foot the bill for locking these folks up , when there are much more beneficial programs that cost less and allow the so-called offender to remain on the street , with family and friends…This has shown to be a much more beneficial plan to the community and the individuals involved….

The capitalist boss , at it again…..

Posted by blackhorse on Mar 23, 2010 at 2:03 PM

Wow, I was beginning to wonder if anyone read this blog.
It’s such a complex issue but it still comes down to being responsible for your own personal behavior. I get it, black kids want to fit in and have “street cred”. Sometimes this is a case of life-or-death for them. It’s just a nasty loop of violence and poverty. I’ve seen first-hand when intelligent and hard working black men try to elevate themselves at work only to be ostracized by their fellow workers. How sad is that?
Blaming

Posted by Bob Hays on Mar 24, 2010 at 5:19 AM

Mr. Hays , again I do agree , many of us , including myself have had to learn personal responsiblity the hard way, that is for sure…

My point in making the reference to the history of so-called gangsta’ rap is that the media never mentions that fact as far as the origins of the corporate media and how the whole thing got manipulated too appear as if this style of music came from the so-called ghetto , when in fact it was a creation of the music moguls and NOT THE YOUTH ON THE STREET….

But , of course your observation is correct , corporations produce all kinds of junk that nobody really needs ; but folks buy that crap anyway….Additionally, if folks would recognize their true strenght and power against these corporations ; and simple not buy or even better bouycott the useless products , I think we would all be surprized at how fast the situation would change…

Another point that is overlooked is that young white males are basically in the same boat as young black males…Meaning that there are more young white male youth in prison than college.. But we seldom if ever hear these stats on the mainstream media…Blackhorse finds this extremely interesting for a number of reasons , that I won’t go into at this time , but I again find that fact very telling about the agenda of this nation and the big baller so-called shot callers that are running this wickedly strange and ostentatiously crippled plutocracy called amerika…

But I do agree again , we the people have so much power it’s maddening to see how we cowardly follow this foolishness ; even to the point of allowing our children to be used as canon fodder for these unnecessary , evil wars of profiteering…

I hope this message finds you in good spirit , and look forward to conversing with you again , good day sir…

Posted by blackhorse on Mar 24, 2010 at 1:23 PM

This is not an issue on which I have much knowledge. It does seem that gangsta rap and much else in youth culture romanticizes violence and the gang life. Young Black Males seem to feel they get “respect” and admiration from others by joining gangs and living as a “gangsta.”  The allure of all this plus drug money often proves too hard to resist.

This having been said, I have to note that an even greater number of people from the Black Community have chosen a different path to respectability and success. They have gone on to college and gotten professional careers or opened legitimate businesses. The Black middle class has grown over the past twenty years despite difficult times. According to a 2002 US Bureau of the Census report, the Black Community represented over $800 billion in consumer purchasing power, 1.2 million small businesses with a combined pre-tax revenue of over 87 billion and had experienced rapid growth in representation in most of the major professions. This shows how progress has been made and that one needn’t turn to drug dealing or other illegal activities for respect or to make a living. True, most successful African-Americans were born middle class and were able to receive a head start in life, but many were not. 

Ending up in prison is not an inevitability but it is more likely for Black youth than White youth. There are still many race based gaps in American society in income, access to health care, education, wealth and other social indicators. To close the gaps we need economic growth. True, this is not the only thing. In the 1960s there averaged over 4% GDP annual growth rates but there still existed a nearly 20% poverty rate, most of it non-white.  Years of civil rights struggles made it possible for African-Americans and other non-whites to take positive advantage of economic growth and the opportunities it presents.  We need to focus our policies on exactly this goal today. I supported Obama’s stimulus bill of 2009 and any other public investment program to stimulate GDP growth and full employment. The Black Community stands poised to increase its well being and close existing socio-economic gaps in the event of a renewel of economic growth. Racism still exists but the barriers of the color bar of pre-civil rights America are gradually disappearing.  We need to struggle for both racial equality and economic opportunity. It is the only way to reduce the number of Americans currently in the prison system.

Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 26, 2010 at 3:15 PM

>There are still many race based gaps in American society in income, access to health care, education, wealth and other social indicators. To close the gaps we need economic growth.

If all that was needed to close the various racial gaps was growth, it would have happened by now.  It hasn’t.

Check out this article. “Minnesota Near the Top in Reading” at http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2010/03/minnesota_near.php
“Minnesota

Posted by KarlKetzer on Mar 27, 2010 at 3:30 PM

Economic growth, which has been more or less stagnant for the last three decades by comparisson to the decades in the immediate post-WWII period, would certainly add to the incomes of the Black Middle class and the tax base in their communities enabling greater funding for schools and higher education. Growth is essential to improving the well being of all people, everywhere. It is not the only thing as I pointed out; but it is quite necessary.

The Black Middle Class in the US grew by leaps and bounds since 1980 during a long period of unquestionable relative economic decline in the US, especially with regard to high paying unskilled and low skilled jobs. This was a remarkable achievement considering these declines in the US economy. Education levels improved in the Black Community but there is still much poverty. This community has clearly bifurcated. Growth will help pull more people up. The achievment of civil rights in the post 1960s era helped lift much of the US Black Community out of poverty but there is still much progress to be made. The current recession has stymied that progress without any doubt whatsoever.

Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 29, 2010 at 3:32 PM

>The achievment of civil rights in the post 1960s era helped lift much of the US Black Community out of poverty

Half a century of spin has helped convinced much of the media and the public that black progress began with the civil rights revolution.

Actually, blacks were already rising out of poverty at a rapid rate that was not accelerated by the civil rights laws and court decisions of the 1950s and 1960s. The first two decades after 1940 saw a more rapid rise of blacks out of poverty and into higher paying jobs than the decades following the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Source: Thomas Sowell

Posted by KarlKetzer on Mar 31, 2010 at 11:14 AM

I am not one to subscribe to the idea that blacks are inherently less mentally capable than whites as is blatantly advertised in the expressed opinions attached to the article above:

Posted by Bob Hays on Mar 31, 2010 at 1:07 PM

Ketzer and Caddriverinchicago the facts that Mr.Ketzer points to as far as the economic growth in the black community during the 50’s and 60’s is telling…The legislation passed during that period in history has had a double edge sword effect in the community ...Many Afrikans from amerika , all of a sudden decided that they no longer had to live in the black community, I call this the NEW NEGRO SYNDROME ...

They mistakenly believed that for some reason , their communities were no longer suitable for them and that white communities were for some reason better….

The true purpose of civil and human rights legislation was to promote greater access to the economic means of production and therefore being able to acqiure said resources and bring them back to the community so that economic growth can happen in the black neighborhoods…That for the most part did not happen….And the reasons for that oversight are squarely based in the community , because of the black flight from black communities….

Having said this , you are correct , the black community regardless of whether legislation effected their economic growth ; or not , the black community was on the rise…

The real question is , did said legislation hurt the community more than it helped ? ? ?

Most so-called legislation was worded in a way that , in the end helped white women more so than any other group of individuals…Welfare , affirmative action has put money and better jobs in the hands of white women more so than any other group…The interesting juxtaposition to that equation is that many white males are in opposition to such programs ,regardless of the fact that their wives are benefiting from the laws passed to supposedly help so-called minorities…

It’s a strange world that we live in no? ? ?

Posted by blackhorse on Mar 31, 2010 at 1:32 PM

Ketzer,

Thomas Sowell is wrong. The civil rights movement certainly did help the Black Community in America rise out of poverty. Of course, in the 1940s and 1950s Blacks began getting higher paying jobs. The late 1930s and early 1940s witnessed a huge immigration wave of mostly poor sharecroppers from the deep south into northern cities like Detriot to take higher wage, unskilled industrial jobs. In the early 1940s, during the height of US war production, the annual unemployment rate averaged less than 2%. Naturally, industrial output growth during and immediately after WWII couldn’t help but lift many Blacks out of poverty.

But as I’ve pointed out Black poverty in the 1960s was rampant. The industrial boom was short lived and Blacks were often the last hired and the first fired. In 1959, 55% of all Black families had incomes below the national poverty line. This fell to about 40% in the mid-1960s. In the 1960s, the national poverty rate was over 20% despite average annual economic growth rates of more than 4% throughout the decade. Most of the high poverty rate was accounted for by Blacks and other racial minorities.  It clearly took the Civil Rights Movement to remedy this situation. During the 1970s, about one third of all Black families in the US fell below the national poverty line and it wouldn’t be until the 1990s that this proportion would drop down to a quarter of the Black population and later, in the 2000s, to just over one fifth. Contrary to Sowell’s dubious claims, Black poverty lessened over the years not worsened. Only the opportunities opened up by the US Civil Rights Movement could have made this achievment possible.

How else can one explain the rapid growth of a Black Middle Class after 1980 right at a time when the US middle class overall was declining and when economic growth declined to an annual average of about 3.1%. According to a 2002 survey by the US Bureau of the Census, Black business in America numbered over 1.2 million with a collective annual revenue of over $87 billion. The Black Community as a whole accounted for about $800 billion in consumer purchasing power at the time This amounted to more than 7% of the GDP at a time when the Black population was about 12% of the US population. Never in their history has the US Black Community come so close to controlling a share of the national income proportionate to their share of the US population.  Certainly, at no time during the pre-civil rights era could this be said.  Progress has clearly been made.

Thomas Sowell is a hard core conservative who, strangely enough, doesn’t feel that the Civil Rights movement should be credited with the success achieved in the American Black Community. His motivation for making these arguments is very simple; he disdains grass roots movements for change preferring to believe that accomplishments begin and end with the individual.  Society, a concept which Sowell doubtless eschews, has little if any effect on a persons life chances regardless of the conditions influencing that person’s life. Most people don’t share these conservative beliefs as they fly in the face of common sense. Unfortunately, they seem to be quickly coming back into vogue.

Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Mar 31, 2010 at 3:39 PM

>I am not one to subscribe to the idea that blacks are inherently less mentally capable than whites

The IQ gap between blacks and white in America of 1 standard deviation has been observed since the earliest days of intelligence testing.

Are you familiar with the scholarship of Arthur Jensen and Philippe Rushton?

Posted by KarlKetzer on Apr 2, 2010 at 9:47 AM

Ketzer,

You are clearly a racist. The work of Jensen and Rushton has been criticized effectively and doesn’t carry much weight in scientific circles. In the first place, there is much controversy about the ability to quantify something as complex as human intelligence. Furthermore, the extent to which IQ is inherited rather than developed after birth is still much in dispute. Intelligence is measured in individuals, not groups. Prof. Stephen Strauss puts it best,

“The main reason the dispute goes on and on is simple: we don’t have any genes for intelligence. Not one. We don’t have actual correlations between variations of those genes and anyone’s performance in business, or school, or anywhere. We don’t know how those gene variations – in science talk, alleles – are distributed in races. Everything is inferential. “

Even two conservative authors, Herrnstein and Murray, who authored the controversial book, The Bell Curve in order to “prove” genetically based cognitive differences based on race, have been quoted as saying, ”“The debate about whether and how much genes and environment have to do with ethnic differences remains unresolved…” Furthermore, many studies on the relationship between race and IQ show a narrowing of the Black/White gap over time.  Some researchers have stressed that these gaps are neither stable nor consistent. One writer asserts,

“According to James Flynn and others, the overall average Black-White gap has reduced by one third over the course of the 20th century. For example, the black men inducted into the US armed forces during World War II averaged about 1.5 standard deviations below their white counterparts.This improvement is also reflected in Black-White differences on school achievement tests, which have shrunk from about 1.2 to about 0.8 standard deviations.”

There are many prominent researchers, Flynn among them, that believe that the racial gap in IQ tests and scholastic performance will close over the next 50 years. Much depends upon steadily continuing advances in educational opportunities for all Americans.

I would also like to point out that most of the researchers who have concluded that there is a positive correlation between race and IQ have taken research money from the racist Pioneer Fund which shows that these researchers are politically and not scientifically motivated. Those who posit a connection between race and IQ that is purely genetically based-and these “scientists” are in the minority of opinion-can confidently be dismissed as racists.

Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 2, 2010 at 11:18 AM

cabdriver wrote:

>The work of Jensen and Rushton has been criticized effectively and doesn

Posted by KarlKetzer on Apr 3, 2010 at 5:49 PM

Bob, I’ve seen signs of racism in the justice system and I didn’t even have to look that hard.

I’m white.  I have a brother four years younger than me.  Despite us growing up in the same household we’ve had radically different lives.  I got given grief by our parents disproportionate to my actual behavior, but I do not have a police record (not even a juvenile one) and I’ve never been in a mental hospital nor in jail.  They gave my brother a lot more slack but he’s been in a mental hospital and juvenile court and currently is wrestling with drug addiction issues.  As far as I know, however, despite his writing several bad checks and getting into several fistfights with various people over the years, he’s never been in prison.

If he were black, he’d have a rap sheet a mile long.  They get pulled over and harassed for driving nice cars, never mind the rest of it.

I lived in North Carolina in the late nineties.  There were two murder cases in my area while I was there which gave me pause.

The first was a pair of young black brothers (literally, they were one another’s brothers) who were up on trial for killing two police officers.  They were stopped for not wearing seat belts, and it came out the car was stolen.  While the arrest was in progress, something happened with one of the brothers and the other got angry and pulled a gun out of the car.  End of story.  Their religion, Rastafarianism, was brought up at their trial and it was alleged that Rastas want to kill all white people.  I didn’t know at the time (though I suspected), but that’s not true, and never mind the unconstitutionality of their faith being used against them.  Needless to say they were sentenced to death.  I have long since forgotten their names but I’m curious to know what happened to them.

The other case was a group of young white people, early twenties I guess, who got together and plotted to kill one of them’s nephew and grandmother for the insurance money.  They broke into the house, stabbed both to death, then set the house on fire.  The ringleader got life in prison (don’t remember if he was eligible for parole), and the others got lesser sentences.  For stabbing a little boy and an old woman.  For the insurance money.

It could be argued the black men got their sentence for killing police officers.  So much as look at a cop cross-eyed and you get in trouble.  I understand that.  Perhaps the real problem is our disproportionate response to crimes, wherein a man in uniform who knows his job carries the risk of death and who has voluntarily assumed that risk is worth more to society than an old woman and a young boy who were entitled to be safe in their own beds.

But somehow I don’t know.  What would the sentence have been for those young punks who killed the old lady and the boy, had the perps been black?

Got one more anecdote for ya.  My then-husband broke into an Army building (he was Army also) and stole a whole bunch of computer equipment and brought it back to our house.  I turned him in for it.  He was court-martialed and sentenced to two years.  He could have gotten up to fifty.  Then he was let out early—in less than one year—on account of good behavior.

He’s white, of course.  Try to picture the same being done to a black man.  Bet you can’t do it.

I agree that black people, as with ANY people, are responsible for their own behavior.  What I do not agree with is that they receive the same punishment that a white person gets for the same behavior. That is the issue here.

If it gets probation for a white person, it should get probation for a black person.

If it gets the death penalty for a black person, it should get the death penalty for a white person.

If you don’t understand that, you have issues and I can’t help you.

Posted by Dana Seilhan on Apr 4, 2010 at 11:55 AM

Karl, you’re German.  Don’t lecture us about race relations.

By the way, let’s talk about heritability for a minute.  We have come to assume that it is governed by DNA code.  In other words, we inherit traits because we are genetically encoded for them.

That is fine as far as it goes, but it is not the whole story.

How many of you here have heard of the science of epigenetics?  Here’s a pretty good summation of it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

One of the phenomena that contributed to the science of epigenetics was the Hunger Winter of the Netherlands in 1944:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944

Children of Dutch women who survived the famine were undersized at birth, which was expected.  However, despite normal nutrition during their lifetimes, *they* also had underweight babies.

The dentist Weston Price observed that there was greater degeneration in the traits of the children of malnourished “racially pure” adults, than there was in mixed-race children of adults who ate proper diets.

http://www.journeytoforever.org/farm_library/price/price17.html

Had the public had greater knowledge of Price’s observations a few decades earlier, the Final Solution might never have been possible.

Now think about the historical experience of African-Americans in the United States.  Have they historically had greater access to healthy food, or lesser?

Might that have a greater contribution to their intelligence levels, or a lesser one?

Do you really think African-Americans are less intelligent—if indeed they are so—because of their DNA code, or because of their genetic expression relative to their ancestral experience vis-a-vis nutrition?

If you’re going to claim scientific justification for prejudice against people of other races, at least examine ALL the science.

Posted by Dana Seilhan on Apr 4, 2010 at 12:07 PM

Ketzer,

You do in fact sound like a racist. You seem to be fascinated with racist literature. Of course, many people will attempt to cloak racism in the garb of “science.” But racism is ugly. Your dismissive reference to charges of racism being “whatever that is” is truely disturbing. Rushton’s use of the term “race realism” is standard KKK/Neo-Nazi lingo. People who publish their screed for racist book clubs like New Century Books and Noontide Press such as Edgar Steele who penned Defensive Racism or Jared Taylor who wrote, Paved with Good Intensions use terms like “race realism” and “white nationalism” in order to mainstream hate and gain acceptance for what is clearly unacceptable.

There is a reason why “us people” (as you put it) reject racism. It can never lead to a solution to anything and can only cause harm. Intelligence is not measured in groups but only individuals. There are plenty of low cognitive whites and intelligent Blacks.  The Bell Curve was in fact written to link heredity to intelligence. Yet it is true that the authors made the statement I attributed to them. Perhaps they had second thoughts or only thought there ideas needed to be qualified. I can’t say for certain.

Your dismissal of my assertion that measuring intelligence is a very complex matter with a rant about dancing, jumping and running is obviously a racial slur and consists of negative stereotyping.  You haven’t proven much by normal scientific standards. Dana’s contributions were valuable. The study she mentioned of those impacted by the 1944 Hunger Winter in the Neatherlands seemed to bring forth fascinating evidence opposing the linking race and IQ.

Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 4, 2010 at 3:45 PM

>Bob, I

Posted by KarlKetzer on Apr 4, 2010 at 6:38 PM

I do recognize that there are important genetic differences among the races. For example, the data show that persons of African ancestry, i.e., “blacks,” have a shorter gestation period.  On average, it’s one week shorter than for whites. On average, black children walk and talk sooner than white children. On average, blacks enter puberty before whites.  On average, black women are more fertile and have a higher rate of dizygotic twinning than white women. On average, black men have higher levels of testosterone than white men.  On average, blacks have shorter life spans than whites. These are facts. You can look them up. You could even repeat the experiments and reanalyze the data to see if the original researchers did their jobs right.  Believe it or not, that’s how science is done.

It is silly to call someone a “racist” merely because he believes there are genetic differences among the races. This is the exact equivalent of a 19th century bishop saying that the definition of a “sinner” is someone who believes humans are descended from apes. The question of genetic differences is an empirical issue, not a matter of faith. That people who are married to a member of another race very often believe in the importance of genetic differences should give anybody pause who tries to glibly equate racist and hereditarian.

“Racist” has become just a shut-up word, a cudgel used by lefties to try to denounce their critics.  Researching racial differences? You must be a racist!  Take part in a Tea Party protest? Racist!  Don’t like the president’s health care plan? Oh how racist you must be! You just don’t like it that the president is black! 

And of course many conservatives cower in fear of being branded a “racist.”  “Please oh please don’t call me a racist! Anything but that!!” 

Have you seen Craig Bodeker’s excellent documentary, “A Conversation About Race”?  One of his interview subjects was a black man who claimed to see racism everywhere. Craig asked him for examples.  The black man said that he was at a club and a white guy said he was a good dancer.  Another time, he entered a library and the whites behind the desk said “hello” and “can we help you?”  When he left, they said “goodbye.”

He cited these incidents as examples of racism.  Give me a damn break! 

Perhaps Steve Sailer said it best.  “A ‘racist’ is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal.”

Suggested reading for you.  John Entine’s “Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We’re Afraid to Talk About It.”  (Public Affairs: New York, 2000)

>People who publish their screed for racist book clubs like New Century Books and Noontide Press

None of the books I cited were published by Noontide Press. None of the scholars I cited have ever to the best of my knowledge ever been published by Noontide Press.  I don’t think I have ever even seen a book published by Noontide Press. But so what?  The validity of an idea is not a function of the publishing house that prints the book.

>The Bell Curve was in fact written to link heredity to intelligence. ... Perhaps they had second thoughts or only thought there ideas needed to be qualified. I can

Posted by KarlKetzer on Apr 4, 2010 at 6:39 PM

>Your dismissal of my assertion that measuring intelligence is a very complex matter with a rant about dancing, jumping and running is obviously a racial slur and consists of negative stereotyping. 

H. Gardner (1983), like you, claims that measuring intelligence is “complex,” and denounces IQ tests for measuring only one kind of intelligence, the logico-mathematical.  Gardner discerns “musical,” “bodily-kinesthetic,” and “personal” intelligences as well.  The trouble is that calling them “intelligences” arbitrarily extends the word “intelligence” to abilities it did not previously cover, in effect redefining it.  These issues are well discussed by Professor Michael Levin (City University of new York) in his book, “Why Race Matters.”  As you might be able to tell from Professor Levin’s name, he would probably not be welcome at any “KKK/Neo-Nazi” meeting, so would you forget the slurs and concentrate on the facts and arguments?

Posted by KarlKetzer on Apr 4, 2010 at 6:40 PM

In response to Dana Seilhan

Understood the world is not “fair”. Like I tell my kids- the fair comes to town once a year. Your argument is that blacks and whites do not get fair treatment under the law. I live in middle Georgia so I see it first hand and all studies I have seen point to this as well. 

To your point> The first was a pair of young black brothers (literally, they were one another

Posted by Bob Hays on Apr 5, 2010 at 7:16 AM

Ketzer…I am saddened to see that you have drank the proverbial ” cool-aid” sir….Your facts and or observations are unfounded , and come from a system of thought that is by design economically disadvantagous to blacks and other so-called minorities…

The misconceptions that you state as facts are produced to engender at the very least the type of casual response that you have….What you need to understand is the poli-tricks of white supremacy , and the economic component that is racism….

Racism is not , whether or not you like or dislike another individual or group of individuals based on phenotype ( outward appearance ).. Racism is the economic disenfranchisment of a individual or group of individuals based on phenotype…This is what it is about ,economics ; in addition ; in order to maintain this hegemony , all types of studies and so-called intellectualized research is done to explain away the fraud of the whole system…

This nation was founded by a plutocracy ( the wealthy )...The plutocrats as a economic class , set themselves apart from the rest of society…This created a problem in that the rest of us came together , blacks and whites , in opposition to the wickedness of the so-called ruling class…What they had to do was divide and rule ; additionally based on the color differentiation of the afrikan in juxtaposition to the european , this was the perfect opportunity to do such…

This is the origin of white skin privilege , in other words , no matter how uneducated , uncivil or inhumane a white person could be , they were given privilege in opposition to blacks , who could be extremely well educated , very civil in demeanor and excessively humane in their general approach toward life….

This is also why it was against the LAW TO TEACH blacks the sacred art of reading the written word…. Think about that for a minute Ketzer , a LAW AGAINST TEACHING READING SKILLS TO A GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS BASED ON PHENOTYPE….No amount of dubiously worded intelligentsia can explain away the wickedly vile and torturous stench of that kind of injustice….

This caste system has been in effect for some four centuries as we speak , and can only find relief in the process of thoughtful and truthful reexamination of the history , morals , and motives of the so-called founding fathers in juxtaposition to the history , morals and motives of the rest of us , especially afrikan and indigenous people…

Your careless assumptions , are the symptoms of a racist , bigoted nations successful attempts at undermining the intellectual , cultural and of course the economic and political growth of blacks and other groups of individuals including regular white folks…

All are dumbed down by the excessive propagandistic misrepresentations of the facts and or outright lies…...

Fascist Amerikanizationalism ; this is not a sustainable way to live,.........

Posted by blackhorse on Apr 5, 2010 at 2:12 PM

Bob,

I don’t agree that crime is actually acceptable in the Black Community but it is far more tolerated. Crime may impress some Black male youth, but this is not the case for the majority of the Black Community. Most Black People think crime is wrong and should be punished by the criminal justice system.

Ketzer,

Your use of racist propaganda like The Color of Crime to support nonsensical statements like, ”...the data compiled by the United State Department of Justice lend no support to the charge that police arrest innocent blacks, or at least pursue them with excessive zeal. In fact, they suggest the opposite, that police are more determined to arrest nonblack rather than black criminals.” is silly.  The idea that the police chase after whites with more vigor and determination that they do Blacks is utterly absurd. I can think of no one who believes this and there is certainly no reliable evidence to support this absurd claim (Jared Taylor’s racist screed notwithstanding). 

The idea that one’s intelligence is predetermined from birth by a genetic code according to race has been rejected by all competant scholars in the field. The research of Jensen and Rushton is not respected by most scholars and is certainly not taken as conclusive evidence that race is the major determining factor in the level of one’s IQ. I have no doubt that there are significant average differences in test scores based on race but that has complex environmental causes.

The study comparing Black kids raised by whites and white kids raised by Blacks has been analyzed to determine the disparity in outcomes regarding IQ and scholastic achievement. It was determined that the white parents that adopted Black kids (who were adopted at an older age than their white counterparts) were poorer, less educated and lived in poorer areas. Environment again played the more significant roll.

One study cited by James R. Flynn in his book Race, IQ and Jensen studys German women who bore children with American fathers. After World War II, many American GI’s (both white and black) fathered children by German women; these children were then raised in German society. The children fathered by black GI’s had an average IQ of 96.5, and the children fathered by white GI’s had an average IQ of 97—a statistically insignificant difference. There are other studies showing similar results. More research in fact shows environment to be a factor than heredity.

Jenson and Rushton’s paper entitled “Wanted: More Race Realism…” posits that there is a 80%/20% ratio in influences on intelligence in favor of heredity over environment. I doubt that this is a widely accepted claim.

blackhorse,

Ketzer’s claims are all based on known racists, many of them belonging to groups committed to making racism acceptable by cloaking it in science and giving it prestige by claiming it is the result of academic research. The Pioneer Fund, a racist organization, funds much of this “research.”

Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 5, 2010 at 2:14 PM

Bob Hays , you are 100 percent totally wrong , crime is not accepted in the black community….Your misconceptions are based on the same wickedly conceptualized propaganda of the corporate media in apparent bed with the criminal justice system , as Ketzer’s assumptions about blacks and intellectual development….

The number of young white males in prison is greater than the number of young white males in college , but nobody wants to talk about those facts…It’s always about the young black youth , and why he’s always in trouble…

The hip -hop culture did not popularize this unfortunate aspect of amerikan culture , the corporate media create so-called gangsta’ rap , and spoon fed it to not only black youth but white youth as well…

As a matter of fact , white rural youth are more likely to use crack or meth , they are more likely to use herion than young black youth living in the so-called ghetto or projects…

The largest consumer of gangsta’ rap are young white kids living in the suburbs….

true….................

Posted by blackhorse on Apr 5, 2010 at 2:36 PM

Cabdriverinchicago- yes, tolerated was a better word.

I understand that the black community feels that the deck is stacked against them, and indeed it has been in the past- so have Jews, Irish, Chinese, and I’m sure I am missing a few others. It can be argued that blacks have had it worse in America….. we’ve heard it all before. My point throughout this board has been that the only group that is going to really work at rectifying the situation is the black community. Life’s not fair so get over it. In the eyes of many whites Affirmative Action isn’t fair, all black colleges aren’t fair, the United Negro College Fund isn’t fair, property taxes in higher income areas that pay for schools in lower income and low performing schools aren’t fair, hate crime legislation, the list goes on.

Here is the white point of view like it or not- blacks are given lots of opportunity in the country. More opportunity in some cases than whites. Any black kid that will put forth a little effort can get a full scholarship. There are endless programs out there to help raise blacks from poverty. But all we hear about is slavery, Jim Crow, mass media marketing, hate crimes, police brutality, and how we are all racists. At some point we stop listening.

There are some great black leaders out there that are telling the community to stop looking at the past and work towards a bright future that is there for the taking. Stop calling each other “nigger”, take advantage of the opportunities that are out there, kick the dealers and pimps out of your neighborhoods, go to a job interview and look respectable, and for God’s sake pull your pants up!

There need to be more like them and they should be listened to. Often they are chastised for their views because it’s easier to be a victim.

Jesse Jackson on Barack Obama: “I want to cut his nuts off”.

Posted by Bob Hays on Apr 6, 2010 at 5:46 AM

And by the way- my “misconceptions” are based on 40 years of experience living in Tampa, Orlando, Houston, Baton Rouge, Oklahoma City, Atlanta, and middle Georgia. Living through forced integration and busing as a child and student. Spending 4 years in the Navy and 20 years of working in warehouses side-by-side with blacks, whites, and Mexicans, and Cubans all the while observing life around me. Not some “wickedly conceptualized propaganda of the corporate media in apparent bed with the criminal justice system”.

Posted by Bob Hays on Apr 6, 2010 at 8:31 AM

I dont have much time to respond , but I will make one qiuck point of reference to you Mr. Hays and that is ; you stated ; (In the eyes of many whites Affirmative Action is not fair ).....

Affirmative Actions largest benefactor is white women , the point that you make sir is true….. Many whites ass-ume that legislation too help those who have been unfairly targeted by the unholy policies of this nations past and or present administrators ; do not deserve compensation for past and or present grievances…

But again I state ; the biggest benefactors of affirmative action are white women ; and who sir, do white women most likely marry ? ? ?  Why it’s white males…

So these deadhard white folks ; who are , by the way , also the largest consumers of welfare , are so misinformed as to not understand that by their ignorant opposition to policies such as affirmative action ; they are really shooting themselves in the foot , in effect, true….That misconception will not only hurt their wives but their daughters and neices to boot…..Not very wise on their part , true…

So , Mr.Hays , sir , maybe know you can begin to understand why cabdriverinchicago or myself or others ; are extremely skeptical of the observations of a southern born and breed white male , who by his own admissions has only casually observed the situation at hand as compared to individuals who have not only studied the situation but lived threw it….

Maybe if you were to apply more effort at a more balanced approach to the subject matter at hand , you would not be so prone to the misconceptions of your ethnic and cultural legacy…...

Best wishes and have a blessed day Blackhorse…............

Posted by blackhorse on Apr 7, 2010 at 5:04 AM

Mr. Ketzer was disqualified above because he is German and I am disqualified because I am white and Southern.

I suppose these articles are written with the sole desire to only reaffirm one’s own thoughts and not to open the dialog to people who may have knowledge and/or experience which would bring to light why someone may have opposing thoughts.

I appreciate the lesson that you have taught me. I believe we have reached an impasse.

Best wishes to you Mr. Blackhorse.

Posted by Bob Hays on Apr 7, 2010 at 6:42 AM

Boy oh boy , oh boy , the issues raised here could keep this blog going for quite awhile , indeed….

You stated….( I suppose these articles are written with the sole desire to only reaffirm one’s own thought’s and not to open the dialog to people who may have knowledge and/or experience which would bring to light why someone may have opposing thoughts…..)

Mr.Hays , nobody is saying you cannot have your own thoughts on any particular subject under discussion , but peep this…..

First off , now you understand how most blacks folks living in Amerika feel , unappreciated , unheard….

Secondly , although I don’t pretend to know or understand what or how you came to believe or think as you do , I can say with some amount of confidence , that your opinions are not in the least bit surprizing to the Blackhorse….In other words ; seen it, heard it , all before , ad infinitum…This is why folks like cabdriverinchicago , myself and others seek out alternative info sources…

I will tell you what opinions surprize this ’ horse , and that would be the statements made by Ms. Dana Seilhan…Her statements show an ablity to look outside the box , if you will , and look at a particular prospective from a juxtapositioned dialectic…Everyday in amerika , black folks are forced to put their thoughts and feelings aside in order to fit in and or make it in a world( Amerikan Society ) that does not affirm or recognize the extreme sarcifices and effort we put forward for aforementioned nation…We know what it means to be unheard….Which bring to mind Mr.Ketzer , and his belief that Thomas Sowell is the end all to be all in understanding the circumstances that black folks find themselves in ; in Amerika….

Cabdriver mentioned this, and I thought the name Thomas Sowell , rung a bell in my memory , so I did a search , which reminded me who this author is and what he is about , which is an apologist for the economics of white supremacy…..

Posted by blackhorse on Apr 7, 2010 at 1:39 PM

“In the eyes of many whites Affirmative Action isn’t fair, all black colleges aren’t fair, the United Negro College Fund isn’t fair, property taxes in higher income areas that pay for schools in lower income and low performing schools aren’t fair, hate crime legislation, the list goes on. “

Let’s examine some of these. The issue of Affirmative Action is indeed a highly contested one but as blackhorse points out, most of those who benefit are white women. I haven’t seen any figures but it seems like a reasonable assertion.  I really don’t know why all Black colleges and the United Negro College Fund (a private organization) are seen as unfair by whites. The all Black colleges like Howard are all private institutions. I strongly support both the colleges and the Fund and think they do excellent work having helped African-Americans economically advance in society.

As far as I know, local property taxes fund local schools. There is no redistribution of such funds from one district to another as far as I know. At least that is how it is here in Illinois. Perhaps it is different in other parts of the country. I can’t imagine affluent folks supporting the redistribution of school funding between districts of differing income and wealth. I have heard just this measure advocated as a way of improving the education of the poor and increasing their life chances as this is the policy in other countries like the UK.

I would like to comment on the issue of hate crimes as it regards the race issue in the US. I may be wrong but I’ve read that the strongest, most vociferous advocates of hate crime legislation are gays, most of whom are white. Jewish organizations such as the ADL are also more vocal on the issue than Black groups since according to recent FBI statistics, Jews are the most frequent target of hate crimes based on religion. Muslims, according to the FBI’s figures, come in second.

Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 7, 2010 at 2:31 PM

First off , the problem with Mr.Ketzer , is that he again has an extremely myopic base from with to draw his conclusions…I am focusing on his reference to author and conservative activist Thomas Sowell , basically because he is a black man in Amerika , who put himself aside ( THE PROVERBIAL OSTENTAIOUS CRIPPLE ) too the extreme ; in order to fit into an Amerikan construct that would ,and never was created to accomodate him or any other person of color…

Mr.Sowell is a Milton Friedman Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institute at Stanford Univ…..This is an extremely problematic observation because Milton Friedman is the economic mind behind this current economic collapse…Sowell , who was mentored by Friedman , fancies that his association which these so-called scholars of the extreme neo-conservative right in some way permits him to be an advocate for the education and intelligensia of the black community…

He has written many books and articles on this subject based on his perspective, which are in extreme opposition to the realities that black folks experience in this society….His view that Afrikan people should basically forget their history and culture in order to acquiesce into the so-called amerikan melting pot , is born from this ostentaious belief in the ways and means of white supremacist such as the aforementioned Milton Friedman..

Now Mr.Ketzer can and should think and or believe as he wants to , but if he or you for that matter ; believe that the watered down opinions of a blatant economic zionist like Friedman will fly in a discussion blog such as this is , well all I can say is you better bring your own neo-conservative bloggers to back you up , cause if a cabdriver or myself or any other individual , with the common sense to see through that nonsense reads your post ; you will be called on that issue ; period..

Additionally and in conclusion , you may wonder or question ....If Thomas Sowell is black and his associations are with individuals that from the perspective of a Cabdriver or Blackhorse are unacceptable ; then how or why would a guy like Friedman mentor and promote Thomas Sowell ? ? ?

That is a true and fair observation…But the answer is in fact quite clear…It is in the utmost interest , for the neo-conservative plutocrats of this society to appear to be as race neutral as possible…

In these days and times , openly racist statements of the past are extremely uncool…I personally like to say that ol’ Jim Crow has got a Phd. in the art of apparent race relations…This is why the neo-conservative right-wing of the republican party has gone all out to find persons of the character of a Mr. Sowell or Clarence Thomas or a Condolessa Rice or Micheal Steele the current chair of the Republican party ...

In politics and business , were appearance and the all important photo-op is everything,,Having a little color around can’t hurt…The Democracts , so hung up in there own self defeating rhetoric , and too cowardly to take a stand on anything , just smile and bend over….

Eventually they found Obama , successfully marketed him to the Wall Street bankers , who are ofcourse the ya sayers for the aforementioned plutocratical capitalist industrial complex that is Amerika….

Well Mr.Hays and Mr. Ketzer ; Blackhorse will relinquish the cyber-space rostrum to whomever , good day and good luck….....

ps…this is for Mr.Ketzer and his confusion concerning intelligence in reference to so-called race….The so-called theory of relativity so often placed on the broad intellectual shoulders of Einstein was in fact preextant in the Nile Valley of the Kemetic culture , in what is now known by the greek word Afrika….If you or Mr.Hays are at all interested , you can check out an author by the name of Gerald Massey 1828-1907..

Posted by blackhorse on Apr 7, 2010 at 3:16 PM

”...but if he or you for that matter ; believe that the watered down opinions of a blatant economic zionist like Friedman…”

Blackhorse, there is no such thing as an “economic Zionist” whatsoever. It is true that Milton Friedman is Jewish but this has absolutely nothing to do with his views on economics or anything else for that matter. The word “Zionist” should not be used as a pejorative for anything you find repugnant. It’s an extremely prejudicial use of the word.

Zionism is merely the belief that there should be a Jewish State in Palestine.

Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 7, 2010 at 6:28 PM

Cabdriverinchicago , I do disagree , not on the definition , but on what Zionism represents as a movement in today geo-political climate….What Judism or Jews represents , is totally in oppostion to the tyranny that zionist have brought to the world stage , economically , socially , and religiously….

The concept is a fraud not only to the Jewish people , but also the Palestinians , not to mention the cost to the US tax payer…Hiding your nationalism behind a fake religious pretext , is the playground of despots…..

Goodday cabdriverinchicago…..

Posted by blackhorse on Apr 8, 2010 at 4:31 AM

“Hiding your nationalism behind a fake religious pretext , is the playground of despots…..” blackhorse   Apr 8, 2010

All I said was that there is no such thing as “economic Zionism” and that Milton Friedman’s ideas, no matter how flawed, unrealistic or inhumane, have nothing to do with Zionism. To apply the term Zionism to the economic though of Friedman when you don’t similarly apply this term to other non-Jewish economists is a prejudicial slur and should be avoided. That is all I am saying.

You views on Zionism are you own business. If you want to oppose the State of Israel, fine. Israel at least deserves strong criticism for its lawlessness and oppressive occupation. But you really should use the term Zionism correctly in regard to its actual definition.

Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 8, 2010 at 12:58 PM

Cabdrverinchicago ; Milton Friedmans economics are defacto in opposition to the economic practices of Israel , you are correct in that observation….

But let us remove Friedman from the equation , and look at zionism and / or zionist as an ideology and a nationalist perspective , we will also have to view the subjct matter from the economic viewpoint additionally….

So yes , I agree , that the use of the term economic zionist , in describing the viewpoints of Friedman was incorrect , he is , or rather was considered to be one of the avant’garde or on the cutting edge of the so-called free market thinkology…..This is in juxtaposition to the economic perspectives of zionism which appear to be more of a socialistic brand…...

But to say that there is no such thing as economic zionism , would be the same as the removal of capitalism from the equation , when doing an analysis of racism ie slavery…

It may be controversial ,and I am sure many would be in disagreement , but that does not mean that the terminology does not exist or should not be used…Additional zionism/ zionists should be used in the pejorative because as a ideology it is defacto , repugant , prejudial and a few other terminologies that I will chose not to mention….

Hey , I use or rather invent new treminologies all the time , check these out ; “Amerikanizationalism/ ist “, or the aforemention use of the term ” thinkology “, I also spell amerika with a ” K ” ; my cousin always corrects me when I use the word thinkology as a substitute for ideology , she says there is no such word ; but my response is ; ” yes there is , I just invented it “...So , my apologies on the context , but I do stand by the use..

Have an extremely blessed and well weekend , hope to talk to you next week Cabdiverinchicago….

ps..In my statement ” Hiding your nationalism behind a fake religious pretext , is the playgroud of despots…..” The us of the word ” your ” was in no way a reference to you personally or your personal political perspectives Cabdriver , just to be clear on that issue , true…......

Posted by blackhorse on Apr 9, 2010 at 1:50 PM

OK, blackhorse.

It should be noted that economic policy in Israel was “socialist” until free market reforms begin in earnest in 1985. Some would prefer to call the early years of Israeli socialism, state capitalism. Currently, Israel has increasingly turned to Milton Friedman’s neo-liberal, free market economic model.  Below is an article from the November-December 2003 issue of Challenge, an economic affairs magazine,  detailing Israeli PM Netanyahu’s economic plan in 2003.

Netanyahu’s economic plan is based on assumptions that herald a worsening of the recession:

6. Cuts in welfare benefits (see the last Challenge, # 81). Netanyahu’s slogan is “Get a job!” Yet without a policy of creating jobs, the cuts will drive more people into poverty, resulting again in less consumption and more recession. 

I think you get the idea. And a blessed weekend to you too, blackhorse!!

Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Apr 9, 2010 at 3:15 PM

Cabdriverinchicago , as usual when discussing the affairs concerning western euro-centered ideological constructs ; duplicity is the order of the day….

After posting fridays blog , I couldn’t help but think of the very polydichotomistic mess you are mentioning now….At the end of the day the formula is still the same ; socialistic policies for the so-called oligarical plutocrats , and capitalistic policies for the so-called lumpen citizenry….

When using terminologies created for the purpose of illusion , the true facts as to what euro-centered capitalistic gov’t policies mean in juxtaposition to euro-centered socialistic gov’t policies ; is at best extremely nebulous….

Yea I get it ; and it ain’t good ; take care Cabdriver ! ! !

Posted by blackhorse on Apr 12, 2010 at 1:15 PM