Judged simply on whether it makes good sense as public policy, the Republican tax cut narrowly pushed through Congress could hardly have been worse. Well, perhaps it could have been: Bush’s initial proposal was even more dreadful. But his basic vision remained intact. Here’s a short list of what’s wrong with the oh-so-slightly improved Congressional version. It’s bad tax policy, introducing… return to article
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Reader Comments (67)Page 1 of 1 pagesIt will be tough, make no mistake. FEMA have been training for years for the day people decide they’ve had enough of the CEO.
Posted by Michael on Jun 16, 2003 at 6:05 PM How is it that Republicans are winning every where across the country? And you can’t lay this one at the Media’s feet entirely. Al Gore should be fufilling his responsability and standing as a voice for the Democrats. Who cares if he runs for President he needs to help. We can all do what we can but he should be helping if not running himself. The confidence of many Democrats left when he stated he was not running again. It gave way for a lot of in fighting between Dem’s. Bush and his staff seeing us weak have attacked and have repeatedly won. It still amazes me though how cold-hearted and corrupt these people are and yet other people contiue to vote for them.
Posted by e on Jun 16, 2003 at 8:25 PM Bush is certainly the worst president our country has seen, and moreover a terrible person. Yes he is giving a very unfair tax cut to the rich and yes he is fighting an unjustified endless war but mostly for me he is an idiot when it comes to the Palestine / Israel conflict. How come everything Palestine does is a terrorist act, even though Israel kills 3 Palestinians for each Israeli killed! Moreover Israel has been dubbed the most dangerous place in the world for media personnel by the Discovery Channel. When will Bush stop allowing Israel to shoot at French, Palestinian, British, and American reporters. When will Israel finally be held responsible for their actions. Israel is the only state in the world that can shoot missiles at civilians every single day and be seen by Bush and much of the media as fighting terrorism. We must stop Israel before it is to late and grant the Palestinian people the land which was stolen from them by ZIONIST MILITANTS,or in todays terms ZIONIST TERRORIST
Posted by Richard on Jun 17, 2003 at 7:02 PM Question: just who pays, on a percentage and dollar basis, the overwhelming majority of income tax?
Answer: the so-called “rich.” Rich - as if it was a disease or something. I am not a fan of Bush or especially the GOP, but I just get ill everytime the “rich” are vilefied, as if it’s a disease or something.Anyone here wish they had just a bit more cash? I know I would - security, better schools for my child, etc. So, I’m not going to lower myself by engaging in so much of the stupid, asinine class warfare typical of many left/liberal arguments. I have no issue with the people shouldering the majority of the tax burden getting some relief.
The author makes an idiotic statement, insinuating that a few extra bucks be funneled back to the Righteous Poor, so they can go stimulate the economy. Sorry, but a few TVs ain’t gonna cut it. The true stimulus comes from those with money (aka, “The Rich”) investing in the economy and infrastructure of companies, which promotes job growth.
But that would make too much sense for most people. Why teach them how to fish when you can just toss a shitty McFish sandwich at their feet? Criticize the tax cuts all you want - and there is plenty of room for criticism. But lay off the nonsensical class-warfare garbage. It stinks.
Posted by Gary on Jun 17, 2003 at 8:03 PM “Moreover Israel has been dubbed the most dangerous place in the world for media personnel by the Discovery Channel. When will Bush stop allowing Israel to shoot at French, Palestinian, British, and American reporters.” Okay, whatever you say, the reason that it is so dangerous there is because hamas and their terrorists. Do you think that Israel would do anything if hamas was gone? And please name one American reporter who has been shot at by an Israeli. People like you just make up facts when there are none to support your view.
Posted by Brad on Jun 17, 2003 at 8:54 PM Pardon me if I don’t share the same sentiment as some of my fellow readers in regards to the so-called burden of taxation on our more wealthy citizens, but who that isn’t rich really gives a damn about helping the rich get richer? Here’s something non-earth-shattering: they’re gonna get richer no matter what the government does with the tax codes. That’s what rich folks do, besides looking out for other rich folks.
It isn’t some liberal guilt or class warfare mentality that leads many of us to loath this round of tax cuts; the fact that someone less well-off than myself should get more help seems like common sense, but there are people out there who wipe their hands clean of any responsibilty when it comes to giving some folks a break. O sure, they say, “hey, I pay my taxes and those poor folks already get enough of my money.” Fine. Whatever. That’s some other underlying problem if someone has contempt for the unemployed or truly disadvantaged. Some of what this article leaves out are the government statements, the things W and other pols said in regards to the tax cuts. But what this article does show is that no matter what was said, these are not tax cuts for all Americans. It’s just the GOP policy, it’s their neo-con aesthetics, and it’s shows such blatant disregard for the real, working, average American.
One of the things goes like this: people get laid-off, downsized, and that’s immediate. It’s immediate to the point of can you afford to go out to dinner, what about those bills sitting on the desk that are due in a week, etc. That is a right now problem; if jobs are being lost in a faultering economy, those things take effect the moment they happen. However, if the government lowers the limit of taxation on things like dividends so that the people with the money can keep more of their money, the results of that on the economy may not be seen for many months, if not years. It’s just such a worthless tax cut, but I don’t think anyone that matters is vilifying the rich for simply being rich. The thing is that these are ideas and policies of the rich elite, for the rich elite, and no matter how swell some of these folks might be, they don’t need tax relief. And we don’t need the lies about how the tax cut is for all of us.
Posted by stuart on Jun 17, 2003 at 9:57 PM Stuart, you mentioned how layoffs severly hurt the poor. Is it possible that these layoffs were caused by executives wanting to take home more money? Won’t the decreased dividend tax allow for ceos to have more people on staff?
Americans are not over-taxed, they are just wrongly taxed. Why do drug/alcohol sales spike the day that welfare checks are received? Because the money that is taken from hard-working Americans is given wrongly. Why do dead people receive medicare payments? Why do so many people recieve payments who don’t need it? Because the government is misspending our money. If the amount that goes in decreases, then the government must be more efficient with our money.
Posted by Brad on Jun 17, 2003 at 11:10 PM On David Morberg’s article Hidden Agenda.
Concerning the massive tax cut windfall for the very wealthy. Some of that money will be invested overseas.
So, instead of keeping the money in the Treasury to be spent here at home some of it will leave the country altogether.
Posted by Cal Simpson on Jun 18, 2003 at 6:26 AM Brad, I suppose you think military spending which is larger than Britian, France, Russia, China, and Germany"s combined is the way to spend money. America couldn’t apparently defend itself from Nicaragua, Granada, or most recently Iraq. I don’t understand why would the people tolerate such a high expenditure if the money couldn’t apparently even protect the U.S. from poor third world nations. (or maybe those conflicts weren’t as imminent as the government made them out to be) There are troops placed all around the world, even in countries that don’t need defending. Why don’t you see the single mothers with children who can’t find work or do work full time for poverty wages when you think about welfare. All you see alcohol sales going up and you generalize your negative stereotype to everyone on welfare. You only look at evidence that confirms your preconceptions. There are two sides to every argument. Why does the richest country in the world not have universal health care when every other industrialized nation (other than South Africa) can afford it, why is the U.S. 20th in child mortality, why is the child poverty rate so high, why is social spending so low. Why do you like the richest 1% and favor their policies rather than the 2/3 of the country who have seen their wages stagnate, or the 40 million people with no health insurance or the millions who have lost their jobs. There is definetly enough money to at least persue modest socially beneficial programs. Oh wait there no time for that Cuba’s attacking or wait was it Iraq, who cares I’ll believe anything. Would somebody please bomb something.
Posted by John on Jun 18, 2003 at 6:44 AM It’s amazing that people don’t look at the consequences of the fiscally irresponsible tax cuts that will cause much more damage in the future to our children and grandchildren.
Tax cuts are Bush’s only message, which is politically motivated for votes in the 04’ election.When federal revenue is cut, states must downsize and make cuts in education, jobs and services such as medical and libraries,are cut. States and cities must raise taxes, which defeat the purpose of the tax cuts in the first place. Property taxes are raised to replace the education dollars lost. Health Insurance rates are skyrocketing.
Three tax cuts passed with little or no gains, no jobs gained.
Where is the advantage in tax cuts besides political?
Posted by cheryl on Jun 18, 2003 at 2:43 PM Take note of this: the simple reasoning of the tax cuts is rich man helping rich man, and the end effect will be this being used as the forefront of bush’s campaign in ‘04 (at least as it relates to his domestic agenda). You can just see where he is going to go: 1) u.s. taking care of “war on terror” and rogue states, and 2) GOP admin. looking out for americans and economy with the various tax cuts. Sadly, this will be the only message much of the public will hear because it will beaten like drum again and again and again. No matter the truths and consequences behind these policies, the GOP will hang their hat on “cutting taxes for american workers and families” and “continuing to fight terrorism around the world.” You know they’re working on it right now, have been working on it for a long time, and will continue to fine tune it until it becomes something sewn into the fabric of the minds of many citizens. It almost like their so blatant and transparent that they’re actually being sneaky.
Posted by stuart on Jun 18, 2003 at 3:13 PM “Won’t the decreased dividend tax allow for ceos to have more people on staff?”
No. If a CEO thought having more people on staff would help them, then they would hire more people. Whereas, if they thought downsizing would help their profitability, they would downsize. Giving them a dividend tax cut just gives them more money, it doesn’t tell them what to do with it. Giving the super-rich more ability to buy up everything only exacerbates the problem of income inequality in this country. The economy can only grow when there is a strong, stable middle class, and Bush is doing his best to destroy it, by making it so that the super-rich don’t have to pay ANY taxes. His agenda is not a secret: he wishes to abolish capital-gains and dividend taxes, and create unlimited tax-free savings accounts. Apparently, to Bush, if you work for a living you should be taxed, but if you make a living off of other people’s work, then you shouldn’t pay anything.
Posted by rob on Jun 18, 2003 at 5:15 PM I thought this was an informative article. I really hate people that always ask for the facts. The conservative media (and more of it coming thanks to FCC) only reports what it wants. How can anyone say “I Know” when they don’t have control over what’s fed to them. Based on what’s reported in the “media” I can easily say this whole thing is bogus, but that’s exactly how I think Republicans (majority being “big” business) keep winning these bouts. Now it’s anytime anyone wants to say something against the Bush administration or posts inofrmation going against or giving a broader view to what’s reported is labeled “Un-Patriotc” by the right-wing media giants. What happened to the 1st Ammendment rights alloted by the Constitution? What I can’t have an informed educated and opinion? Or becuase no one saw it reported on CNN, now I’m just a liar? There’s more than one source, best get both sides of the story before staking claims. Late.
Posted by Zach on Jun 19, 2003 at 12:57 AM After reading through these comments it’s no wonder the Republicans are in power. No one has made a FACTUAL statement backed up by FACT. Everyone who has commented has let emotion run high and that is not a good thing as it clouds what is actually said. Go through all these posts and read them. You’ll see people state their opinion, (yes opinion), but no facts. You can’t say oh this is why W did this, or this is why W did that without quoting the man. Everything on this page, the article included are written out of people’s ignorance. SHOW ME THE FACTS and quite throwing out opinions as such. If the democratic foundation can’t even use facts, it’s no wonder the leadership (who has been on a constant lying spree) is having a hard time keeping office.
Posted by James on Jun 19, 2003 at 4:02 AM Gary from Chicago stated earlier, “But lay off the non-sensical class-warfare garbage.” and that it’s “...typical of many left/liberal arguments.”
Well please allow me to enlighten you Sir, but this has NOTHING to do with class-warfare by the view of the left. Simply put, it has to do with EVERY AMERICAN paying their fair share of taxes RELATIVE to their income level. Not by dollar amount, but relative as a percentage. That my friend is the problem at hand with the so-called tax cut package-it’s UNFAIRLY shifting the relative percentage of tax responsibilty.
From having read your post I’ll bet your one of us, considered to be in the middle class earning range and that’s under $390,000 annually. Also, it’s US the “middle class” who’s shouldering the tax support in this country on a percentage basis.
You will be singing a different tune when the percentage amount of taxes you’ll be paying increases substantially, campared to someone, who even though earns 50-100 times what you do, pays a LOWER percentage amount!
Then post to this board that it’s all about class-warfare with a left argument. You’re ONE of the many SHEEP as to why this is occurring in the first place!
Posted by John on Jun 19, 2003 at 6:19 AM You accuse the Republicans of Rhetoric, this is the same trash! Who are you to say that liberal economic policies are more successful! In fact, it has been proven that conservative economic views spur far more economic growthj (think of the economy back in your buddy Jimmy Carter’s days, I wasn’t alive, but from what Ive heard it was a disaster!) And what exactly is the problem with a smaller government? That usually leads to more civil liberties, more power to the people, the idea on which ourr nation was founded. I got to this article through axisofjustice.com and I am disgusted with a site I generally support for giving this poorly thought through, extremely one sided, and obsenely incorrct article publicity!
Posted by Nick Jackson on Jun 19, 2003 at 1:53 PM P.S. to my last letter. Wile I generallly support conservative policies, this tax cut was ill targeted
Posted by Nick Jackson on Jun 19, 2003 at 1:54 PM I just read in today’s paper that the Republicans are going to eliminate the inheritance tax. Granted it probably needed to be modified to protect joint property, but the creation of dynasities is repugnat and destructive to those ideals that made this country great. We will polarize our people into a more pronounced two tiered society where membership is determined by birth not “worth”. Or rather we will redefine the idea of individual worth into what a person has (or has given to them) rather than what a person contributes to society. I do not like what is happening to America!
Posted by angry citizen on Jun 19, 2003 at 2:09 PM Here we go with the class warfare thing again. Thanks, angry citizen, for illustrating the real reason some people oppose the tax cut.
Posted by Phil on Jun 19, 2003 at 2:22 PM The inheritance tax is the most unfair tax that I can imagine. If you work all your life making a lot of money, paying taxes on that money, you should be able to give your leftovers to your kids. The money that is inherited is being duel-taxed and its unfair to those who contribute more to our government that they be forced to give even more away. I agree that dynasties are not the best thing, but taxing money twice is wrong.
Posted by Brad on Jun 19, 2003 at 3:12 PM Nice try, John… well done. But no cigar. What the hell are you smoking, saying the “middle-class” pays a bigger percentage of taxes? The overwhelming amount of income tax (in dollars) in the U.S. comes from the so-called “rich.” They are also taxed at a higher rate than your precious “middle class”. In any event, Dubya’s plan calls for rates across the board to be dropped for everyone, yes even the “rich.” You are talking in circles, as well. First, you admit the middle class, on a dollar basis, doesn’t pay the majority of income tax - that would be the “rich.” But then you go on to say the middle class is “shouldering” the burden on a percentage basis. Huh? That doesn’t make sense, my friend… the bottom line is that the upper few percent are contributing by far the most income tax, in real greenbacks.
Hell, I’m not even trying to support his plan, which I personally am against. I just get tired of the “rich” constantly getting battered because they happen to have money.
So, I don’t think I’m a “sheep” because I can appreciate working and making money. And yes - I understand there’s plenty of rich folk who have inherited their fortunes. And like society in general, there are good and bad in the “rich” crowd just like the “poor” and “middle class.”
But all this article does - like many leftist/liberal arguements on this topc - is to polarize the “classes.” I will say this: If you want to make money, work for it.
Take the dollars out of it. Regardless of how much one makes, how much is fair to take from one’s income? 40%? 60%? 75%? As it is, the “rich” are somewhat “penalized,” at least in theory, for having money; at least in the tax sense - they pay more money on a percentage to income basis. I’m not sympathizing or crying crocodile tears for the likes of Bill Gates, but COME ON people! Just because someone has a ton of cash, why should they automatically be expected to give it all away? I really fail to see what all the fuss is about. Fuck the tax percentages… how about some real noise on the lack of substance in this thing? The fact that this will do nothing except put on a good face for the ‘04 elections. Where’s the lame-ass Democrats on this? Rolling over like fat sheep dogs, the way they did since before Dubya was even elected. Pathetic.
Posted by Gary on Jun 19, 2003 at 4:46 PM If you want Facts, it’s become obvious that you can’t “quote the man.” what does the truth and what “the man” says have anything to do with fact? Also, the issue isn’t “liberal economic policies” or a “class warfare thing,” as some of you are so astute to mention. I’m not here to spell out the scope of this policy, you can find that out on your own fairly easily, but this cut offers next to nothing to the average American. If there’s any class bias, it’s coming from the GOP administration. And here’s a fact: this cut is going to put $60 back into my pocket over the span of a year. That’s $5 a month. How’s that supposed to contribute to the economy when the government could just keep their $60 and try to strengthen social security or health care? Just look who’s going to get the bulk of the cash: the rich. How is this not a policy of the rich and powerful looking out for their own with no concern shown for blue collar America?
Posted by stuart on Jun 19, 2003 at 4:54 PM You don’t think the workers are deserving of any of the capital produced. They have to work exetremely hard as well. The rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. American society is the most unequal of any industrialized nation, it is also the richest yet it’s labour costs per capita are right at the bottom just above Britian. Wages have stagnated and declined for the majority of the populatuion while the elite classes have amassed unprecedented wealth. Why don’t you appreciate lower and middle class people who work and don’t get fairly compensated and have watched their conditions decline. People work full time all year and still live below the poverty line. Why don’t you appreciate that. Are you trying to say only the rich work hard and thats why they have more money. That doesn’t sound a tad simplistic to you. Have you ever worked a full time manufactuing job or any job for that matter. Did yoiu have to work hard. Well, I did, I I think most everyone works hard and deserves a certain standard of living that they are not recieving, ecspecially in the richest country in the world. Their’s always enough money for the military, tax cuts, or corporate subsidies but when it comes to social spending suddenly the well is dry. Where does the rich get the ton of cash that you think reflects their character and hard work. They get it from the sweat and work of the workers or the profiteering of natural resources. If you can pay someone relatively nothing compared to the capital produced to rent their labor, yeah your going to make a killing. Very few billionaires have worked their way up and built their own buisness. What about the teachers, social workers, cops nurses who roles are so vital for society. They get paid terribbly but are imperitive for the functioning of society. Maybe cops should start selling their service or nurses care for only those who pay. Oh wait, their jobs are to important to be put in the market system but that doesn’t mean we have to pay them much. Gary if your a millonaire I can understand why you would like to lower taxes in this fashion but if your not I think the pathetic statement should be pointed the other way.
Posted by bill on Jun 19, 2003 at 5:22 PM I strongly agree with Stuart. You want facts, just look at the dynamic behind the cuts. Technically, they can label anything calling it “good”, but what is actually put into action is hardly relevant. The facts are on the table, you’ll just have to wait and see what unfolds. $60 in my pocket wouldn’t stimulate a damn thing.
Posted by Zach on Jun 19, 2003 at 6:15 PM Oh for chrissakes everyone - LIGHTEN UP!! First of all, not only am I squarely in the middle class (actually, toward the lower third), but I work my ass off for every dollar I bring home to my family. Manufacturing? Never worked directly in it, but is construction and being a custodian “blue-collar” enough?
My whole point in all of this was that simply - duh, when tax cuts come around, everyone is quick to point the finger at the “rich” and say, look how much money they’re getting back. How convenient no one mentions how much they put into it in the first place! It’s simple math, folks - the more you make, the more you pay, and you will generally get more back as a result. It’s not like the “rich” are all of a sudden going to be taxed at 15% and the rest of us at 89%. Each bracket, if memory serves, will be reduced around 2-3%, something like that.
So when you get your $60 savings vs the thousands the “rich” might get, how is this biased? Is it the fault of the “rich” that the numbers grow exponentially as you move up the income scale? I think not, and if any of you were honest with yourselves, you’d agree.
This whole exercise, sorry to say, is highly suggestive of lame class-warfare. How many of these posts have made comments to the effect of the evil rich, how did they get their money in the first place, etc.? That’s ridiculous, to paint a broad brush stroke and make an idiotic assumption that everyone who’s rich is a jerk/lazy/etc, so therefore anyone with money would be the same. That’s the kind of horrid stereotyping I would expect from the likes of Toby Keith - leave it to him, please. Virtually everyone who posts here is WAY too smart to have to lower themselves to that level, you can see it in the posts.
It’s fair and reasonable to point out the ever-widening gap between the haves and have-nots. But why does it somehow always translate into mass character assassination? Hell, I even wrote that I AGREED with just about everything people posted on this, save the class warfare stuff. Yes, I’d like to see schools improved for my children, sensible health care, etc. And I agree, I think these cuts are great from a political perspective if you’re a fan of the GOP looking towards ‘04. But in general, they are just window dressing and will not do much for the rest of us. Peace, ok?
Posted by Gary on Jun 19, 2003 at 7:00 PM “Each bracket, if memory serves, will be reduced around 2-3%, something like that.”
Gary, the problem here is your memory is not serving you well. Also when you state, “...that the more you make, the more you pay…” you’re thinking in very simplistic terms. The wealthy, whom I’m not against at all, have siginificant and numerous tax advantages above and beyond what you (middle class) and others have available within the federal tax codes by their earining capacity alone. This doesn’t include the professional tax and legal services used as well by individuals within this strata, and that’s fine and great for them.
But, the POINT here is what this administration’s proposed package is all ABOUT, and that is shifting the burden of taxation more towards Americans making income levels within the middle-class range. Hey guess what my friend, that’s you and I!
That’s right, the following is a recent quote from a Jun. 4 Washington Post article entitled, “Middle Class tax share set to rise”, “Households earning $100,000 or more are now paying 73.3 percent of federal income taxes, up from 70 percent.” In case you’re interested in reading the rest, or search your own Chicago papers.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/ A10323-2003Jun3.html?referrer=emailarticleAnyway, I am only trying to help you understand and increase your knowledge on the issue better. As far as who pays the majority of federal taxes? It’s the middle-class-why? Because there’s a lot more of us within that class in just sheer numbers alone. It’s not rocket-science, it’s just the way it is.
Finally, it’s not that I embrace so much “my precious ‘middle-class’.” as you responded to earlier. It’s a FACT, that regardless, it is the way it is for everyone within whatever class-and that’s the REALITY. The sooner you come away realizing that the better understanding you’ll have of the issue. Regards.
Posted by John on Jun 19, 2003 at 11:18 PM John, the insight/info is appreciated. However, you are incorrect on who “shoulders” the majority of the tax burden in this country. The middle/lower classes may make up the majority of census numbers in terms of sheer population, true enough.
However, in terms of sheer tax dollars, it is in fact the upper brackets that contribute by far the most income tax. Look it up, it’s true. It seems goofy, how could that be?
It just points towards the growing disparity between the haves/have-nots as pointed by many in this thread. Even though the rich represent a small percentage of taxpayers, their income is exponentially higher than the rest of us, and that’s where the numbers come from.
And my memory is not off, I may not have the exact percentages, but I was close. I believe the upper bracket was due for a 2.3% reduction, the lower brackets perhaps a bit higher. So, I may not be hitting the exact percentages on the head, but I’m close. This was reported in virtually all the major media outlets.
Posted by Gary on Jun 20, 2003 at 1:53 PM neither party is mine, not the jackass or the elephant. all of this tax stuff would be solved if corporations paid taxes. you have corporations like halliburton that have their headquarters offshore, so that they don’t have to pay u.s. taxes, but they can make money off of the war. these poor people that some of you speak so lowly of are our soldiers, who didn’t even make enough to receive the new child tax credit. these rich people whom some of you speak so highly of, didn’t get rich without paying these poor people terrible wages or exploiting some asian or latino. truth is, no one gets anywhere without the help of someone else. bush never had to pull himself up from his bootstraps. he got a 600 on his S.A.T.‘s but with the help of his dad he got into yale. if a balck person got into yale with a 600 on his/her S.A.T.‘s white people would be up in arms ready to protest. how did bush afford to buy the texas rangers? that’s right he got the money from his brother neil who was looting an s&l. i don’t feel sorry for the rich. some of these people have more money than some nations.
and about the whole israel and palestine thing… they don’t want it to happen ever again, and their catch phrase is never forget. funny how quick they forgot the history of zionism. zionism wasn’t accepted by the jews who died in the holocaust. while they were dying in concentration camps, their zionist counterparts were in palestine committing terrorist acts against the palestinians. they didn’t care about the jews who were perishing in europe. they had the chance to help, but opted not to. the catholic church saved more jews than the zionist. think about it, how happy would you be if the native americans decided they they wanted their land back and kicked you out of your home. actually they would have better reason to than the jews because they are actually from this land. black people are suppose to get over 400 years of enslavement, but the jews don’t have to get over the jewish holocaust. hell, they even get their own state, and reparations.
the rich should pay more taxes because they benefit off the labor of the poor. it cost more to live if you are poor. your insurance is higher, interest on loans are higher, and the majority of your check goes to taxes. i don’t feel sorry for the rich, they don’t feel sorry for the poor.
Posted by Jason on Jun 20, 2003 at 1:54 PM one thing jason, the soldiers don’t get the child tax credit because they don’t pay federal income taxes. some say they should, but how can you give a tax credit to someone who doesn’t pay taxes?
Posted by richard on Jun 20, 2003 at 2:56 PM Jason, can’t speak for others, only myself. So, I can’t stress enough, I don’t look “down” on the poor, nor do I especially love the “rich”. My only point was that the rich pay more in taxes, period.
But you hit on a personal hot button of mine: the military. Specifically, the men and women sent by Haliburton & the PNAC to fight the wars of the ignorant. I laughed at the hypocrisy of the “new patriotism” sweeping much of the country, even as funding for our fighting men and women is cut back even further. THAT’S how you “support” people putting their lives on the line in your name? I’m not into violence, but would fully understand if a few divisions returned from Iraq and decided to march right into Capitol Hill and start rolling heads…
Posted by Gary on Jun 20, 2003 at 3:11 PM All the “Rich” car about is themselves and their money. That is how they got “Rich”. They do not give a wet slap how they get their money, who or what they harm in the processs
to get it. All you need to make money in this country, is a total lack or morals and consience.So I say tax them. They are good for nothing else. Total waist of flesh otherwise.
Posted by Chris on Jun 20, 2003 at 3:42 PM Actually, the convergence of
decreasing oil production, global
warming, and job exporting will
lead to an worldwide economic
depression by 2015, regardless
of whether the CEO in the
Whitehouse is called “Republican”
or “Democrat.” If you’ve got a
mortgage, better pay it off, or
you’ll lose your house!
Posted by jp on Jun 20, 2003 at 3:47 PM Thank you, Chris, for your insightful and intelligent contribution to this lively discussion. And this isn’t a class warfare thing…?
Posted by Gary on Jun 20, 2003 at 4:48 PM to Brad you stupid FUCK
READ THIS
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,677833,00.html
its about unarmed British journalist being fired at by Israels military
Posted by Richard on Jun 20, 2003 at 9:02 PM to brad again
YOU STUPID FUCK
yes Israel would do something if Hamas was gone Israel stole land from the Palestinians before hamas existed and moreover is ran by a extreme right wing militarist Sheron government. Plus Hamas said they would stop their attacks if the Israeli military would stop theirs, so why do u tell Hamas to stop and not the Israeli military
Posted by Richard on Jun 20, 2003 at 9:07 PM Richard, I said that no American journalist had been fired on, I didn’t know about the other countries.
Also hamas has been around longer than Sharon has been in office. The only reason Sharon is in office is because Rabin (who was the best pm ever for israel) was killed by israeli whacko.
Oh and Jason, what happen to the blacks was terrible, but 6,000,000 Jews were killed in 13 years. Only jews who were directly effected got any type of reparation, and where were the Jews to go at the end of world war II? They had nothing and excuse them if they wanted to leave a continent that almost had them all killed.
Posted by Brad on Jun 20, 2003 at 9:27 PM I’m tired of hearing so much crap. Yes, the rich pay more taxes, but that’s because they practically monopolize what’s consumed. They have so much goddamn money that if they payed 99% of their income in taxes they would still make 100 times more than your average American. And no, as a percentage of income, the middle class is being shafted. They pay more than the poor and much more than the rich as a percentage of their income.
As for Israel is conerned, I have just one thing to say. If Israel got its ASSES out of the ILLEGALY occupied territoried THEN come crying to me about Hamas. Even at that point they would first have to pay up in reperations for what they STOLE from the Palestinians for you to even to have to say ANYTHING about Hamas.
Posted by jacques on Jun 21, 2003 at 7:01 AM ” They (the rich) have so much goddamn money that if they payed 99% of their income in taxes they would still make 100 times more than your average American.”
I guess when there are no facts to support your views, you just make it up. Let’s just say you got a pretty wealthy guy, he’s bringing in a half mil a year. If he gives 99% of that away, that means he brings home 5,000 dollars. And then you said that this rich guy would still be bringing home 100 times more. So if you divide the 5000 by 100, you get 50 dollars. The average American does nto make 50 dollars. Don’t make things up.
Posted by Brad on Jun 21, 2003 at 2:24 PM OK, so it’s somewhat of an exaggeration, but the point is that they have tons of it so OF COURSE they are paying more. And the FACT is that as a percentage of income they pay much LESS than the middle class - this is indisputable. Secondly, the Bush tax cuts are not even aimed at the guy who makes 500,000 they’re aimed at the guys who make many millions and up.
Posted by jacques on Jun 22, 2003 at 12:31 AM “And the FACT is that as a percentage of income they pay much LESS than the middle class - this is indisputable.”
Not true, at all. In New York State (the exact percentage varies based on location) the highest tax bracked pays 47-49%. It goes down from there.
Posted by Brad on Jun 22, 2003 at 3:02 AM And I was talking about FEDERAL taxes. Typical of you to try to obfuscate the issue
Posted by jacques on Jun 22, 2003 at 5:01 AM Besides most of these thugs should be in jail, never mind paying taxes!
Remember Enron?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Posted by jacques on Jun 22, 2003 at 5:09 AM That is federal income tax, the amount you par varies based on where you live. There is no fact that says that people who are poorer have to pay a larger percentage anyway. It doesn’t work like that. Jacque only thinks that the tax cut only helps the rich, well your right and wrong. Any tax cut that has the amount that EVERYONE has to pay cut down by percents is going to benefit a rich person more. (as 3% of 1,000,000 is more than 3% of 50,000) Jacque, stop saying random stuff that can;t be supported.
Also, the Enron punks should be in jail, what they did was terrible. The sad thing is they may have covered themselves as they did not do anything illegal as they prob would have been charged with somethign.
Posted by Brad on Jun 22, 2003 at 3:14 PM brad, tell me what the enslaved people had when slavery ended? if your answer is nothing, (which it should be) then going by your logic the blacks are due their own state, just like the jews. and tell me how many black people died during their enslavement and on the trip over here? you probably don’t know because no one really cares. the jewish holocaust gets so much attention because it happened to white people. where were they to go? the same place the gypsies went after they were freed from the concentration camps, somewhere in europe, because their europeans. israel supported the apartheid in south africa. they sold them weapons and trained their troops. why don’t the jews ever mention that? what would you do if a group of indians came and took your home and moved right in. i don’t think you would be too happy.
Posted by Jason on Jun 22, 2003 at 6:42 PM Brad, on AVERAGE the poor pay about 14% of their total income on federal taxes, the middle class 117-18% and the top tier about 13%. If you know this then indeed there’s nothing to talk about. Of course, conservative think tanks are famous for nudging their data so they’ll never admit it. But if you look at any reasonable statistic coming from independent sources you’ll find my stats exactly right! I can’t cite them because last time I checked was a year ago and I forgot.
“The sad thing is they may have covered themselves as they did not do anything illegal as they prob would have been charged with somethign.”
But that’s the whole point, that’s it’s so easy to cover up, because the laws as they are written so favor them. The regulations have no teeth! It wouldn’t have anything to do with their lobbies, would it?!?
Posted by jacques on Jun 22, 2003 at 6:53 PM Or the Repulicans who are in their pocket to ensure they could never be tried?!?
Posted by jacques on Jun 22, 2003 at 6:57 PM seems the sickness within each year
has got what it takes
to make the go-getters volunteer
applauding their own cynical skills
let’s drop the bomb,
their future’s on
let’s drop the bomb
because dusted off opinions
are way around
desperate for some moral ground
I detest everything they’ve blessed
I abhor everything they stand for
to many free market conquerors
and inventors of government bluffs
are looked up upon:
they know the job and get it done
with cheap convenience and racing airwaves
I overslept my going for vengeance
rightful retaliation
I would like to enter their vicious circle
with the adrenaline rush of a great beserker
they seek profit, they think global
but see poverty as a personal failure and shameso call me killjoy
but there’s a certain happiness and success
I’d like to destroya few degrees of rottenness
is what separates
their lives from their deaths
maybe I’m only one of many
who’s started to reconsider murder
the harder it gets
the more they tend to look like
moving targets
Posted by Stargazer on Jun 23, 2003 at 11:08 AM First of all, Jacque I can only comment on the percents of where I live, but if those stats are indeed accurate, remember that 13 percent of what Tiger Woods earns is going to be a whole lot bigger than 18 percent of a guy bringing home 55 grand.
Posted by Brad on Jun 24, 2003 at 8:27 PM Here’s one consequence this unbelievable greed has had on me that the rightists did not intend. I used to believe in free markets. I was for NAFTA. Globalization was a way to raise all boats, I thought. But seeing how the rich behave when they have the upper hand, as in the endless tax cuts, has been sobering to me. If global corporations are allowed to freely do their thing, there must be a degree of trust that with free markets and competition to level the fields and at least some degree of personal restraint, which we might expect from any civilized person, it could work for all. But the rich simply cannot stop themselves from grabbing! It is incomprehensible to me that hundreds of millions a year is not enough! There is no such thing as giving back or giving your fair share. I used to scoff at the common Hollywood scenario of Joe X trying to take over the world, but we now have thousands of Joe Xs trying to grab the world for themselves. In the further evolution of our species, the business world may someday develop a sense of responsibility, but that is not yet. Somehow, they must be restrained!
Posted by James on Jun 25, 2003 at 2:50 AM Why is it that the free-market disciples never seem to look at history? Laissez-faire capitalism was about as close to a truly free market as we’ll ever get, and it was an unmitigated disaster. Monopolies are the inevitable result of a truly free market, and at that point the vaunted “power of the consumer” is reduced to a simple binary: buy it or don’t. It may be (comparatively) easy to live without luxury items like cell phones, but when the monopoly is on a human necessity like water, the consumer is screwed with a capital screw. Take a look at the wonderful privatized water system in Venezuela to see how well a water monopoly serves its customers….
Posted by Aaron on Jun 26, 2003 at 8:56 PM Dissolve the Empire! Now!
Considering all these primititively reactionary, barbarian things that now culminate with this unelected regime of yours, one starts wondering whether the very best thing that could happen both the world and your own citizens wouldn’t be the dissolution of the American Empire, the U.S.
50 independent, small states would have a far bigger chance to get rid of that 1-2 percent of parasites that now partly plunder them, partly force them to pay for their imperial conquests around the world.
Posted by A. M. on Jun 28, 2003 at 6:09 AM Brad -
The last two comments are right on and I’ll tell you why. Even if the filthy rich paid 50% or triple what the middles class paid they would be getting their unfair share, no matter what dollar amounts they put in the treasury.
Bottom Line -
When you’re raking in millions upon millions you are NOT working for it. This is a DELUSION that if you put money in the stock market your money is earning on your behalf. Money is simply a medium of exchange. In our corrupt capitalist system, you can sit on your damn ass, drink cocktails, screw hookers, and watch your damn money sprout wings and fly whilst the other poor schlobbs slave away for 12 hours a day in some filthy-infested factory for 10 cents an hour just to make that asshole a few extra million bucks.
And you feel sorry for the asshole??
What a world we live in!
Posted by jacques on Jun 29, 2003 at 5:29 AM And the fact that they are rapaciously plundering the whole planet to get those millions doens’t bother you either.
This fucking species is probably going extinct anyway, so who gives a shit, right?
Posted by jacques on Jun 29, 2003 at 5:39 AM “you’ll find my stats exactly right! I can’t cite them”
Since you don’t know them or cite to them, I can’t find them in any way; how then can I find them to be exactly right?
Posted by Nus on Jun 30, 2003 at 4:05 PM Regarding the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, the first thing that occurred to me when I read Israel “kills 3 Palestinians for each Israeli killed!” was how many are combatants or casualaties ancilliary to a legitimate military operation targetting combatants and how many are merely innocent civilians waiting for a bus or watching a movie.
The link below gives the statistics that show the questioned rhetoric to be typically hyperbolic and self-serving propaganda.
Posted by Nus on Jun 30, 2003 at 8:31 PM Nus -
You couldn’t find them if they were pasted to your face!
Posted by jacques on Jul 1, 2003 at 4:29 AM “how many are combatants or casualaties ancilliary to a legitimate military operation “
There are NO “legitimate military operations” in Palestine.
Get the HELL OUT of the Palestinian territories!
Posted by jacques on Jul 1, 2003 at 4:32 AM “You couldn’t find them if they were pasted to your face!”
I am not quite sure what you mean by this. Do you read information that is pasted to your face? How do you do it?
Certainly I could not read alleged “facts” if they were pasted to my face, you are right. If however they had been cut and pasted to the same place where they were alleged to be “exactly right” herein, one could easily discern their exactitude.
So you also believe that not only does Israel has no right to exist, but because of that, murder of Israeli citizens is perfectly reasonable and any response other than capitualtion is not? Can we then presume that you are the type of kid who would drop water balloons from your window and then cry that no one has the right to come after you there?
Posted by Nus on Jul 1, 2003 at 9:24 PM As far as facts go, they speak for themselves. I’m not forcing you to believe me. Believe whatever you want, I don’t care.
As far as Palestine goes. Who is not giving the other side the right to exist? It’s the Israelis of course. The Palestininians gave up the right to THEIR land already in what is CURRENTLY Israel. UN resolutions has not stopped them from staying in “Judea and Samaria”. If the Palestininans showed no resistance and the “biased” UN would have gone along then Israel would have annexed the territories already. What you call a terrorist I call a freedom fighter. GET OUT NOW from the ILLEGALLY occupied territories, you stupid fuck!
Posted by jacques on Jul 1, 2003 at 11:02 PM I’ve had it with this thread, all you get is a bunch of stupid right-wingers and racist zionists. Like only Israel has a right to exist, forget the Palestinians. The usual fare. I’m outta here!
Posted by jacques on Jul 1, 2003 at 11:09 PM “Certainly I could not read alleged “facts” if they were pasted to my face, you are right. If however they had been cut and pasted to the same place where they were alleged to be “exactly right” herein, one could easily discern their exactitude.”
what the? talk about pseudo-intellectual. how do you even diagram that sentence? to paraphrase lewis black, you take your pencil, sharpen it up, and stick it in your eye! and leave the witty rhetoric to the people who may actually have a bit of produndity in their statements.
Posted by t. richard on Jul 2, 2003 at 5:27 PM Damn straight T Richard. This hairsplitting with the face/paste/facts thing is what the fine NY writer Sam Lipsyte might call the nerd’s gnaw.
Nus, the issue is not whether the Israelis have a right to exist (they do) or the murder of Israeli citizens is reasonable (it is not) but whether or not the Israelis have the right to illegally occupy Palestinian territories. They do not.
Posted by owen on Jul 2, 2003 at 10:49 PM Taxes are unfair! The real joke is most people are blinded by the argument of how much we should pay. We should live tax free. We should have volunteers in place of tax funded programs. Property taxes make sure you never own your house. Its time for another freedom revolution! Down with taxes!
Posted by noneya on Jul 9, 2003 at 1:50 PM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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