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My father was a radio operator on the B-17 with the U.S. Army Air Corps, stationed in the Pacific during World War II. I remember him telling us that he never saw first hand the devastation of bombing the Japanese, but he did state; “I knew people were being killed.”
Any real warrior will tell you that killing the enemy is never a glorious thing, it is never something one wishes to brag about and it is certainly not something one discusses over the dinner table with one’s family. My dad who is about to complete 87 years of age never did and for this I admire and respect him.
As to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki my father feels both were not only wrong, they were completely unnecessary. “The Japanese were close to surrender.Dropping atomic bombs on both cities was barbaric and racist.” Profound analogy for a working class man who served in war.
War is never a pleasant thing. Many argue that it is pointless. Personally I have never served in a war and hope I never will have to. I do believe that there are more than enough unjustified wars that our country has gotten involved in. I would NOT put World War II in that category as the world was threatened by fascism from Germany, Italy and Japan. The wars in Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Iraq I, Bosnia, Iraq II and Afghanistan are all wars that never should have occurred.
When working people can exert control as to who we will go to war against or who we will sit down and negotiate settlements with, then and only then will we have reached the ultimate level of democracy. Until then, our sons and daughters will in all probability continue to be sent off to fight in the interestss of U.S. imperialism and the politcians will continue to label their actions as “heroic”! How tragic!
Posted by Chicano Wobbly on Aug 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM
Perhaps just a little late for the presses, but it’s curious that such an article fails to mention that Zinn was not only a genuine communist, but he lied about it.
http://tinyurl.com/Zinn-communist
Not that there’s anything wrong with that, right? If not, why did he go to such great lengths to hide his true allegiances?
Posted by Natalie on Aug 3, 2010 at 12:03 AM
Natalie, obviously you are not familiar with the tremendous suffering and persecution that communists went through during the McCarthy era. Thousands of reds were fired from their jobs and the labor movement eager to impress the right wing expelled them from their ranks. Hollywood actors and other cultural workers were also black listed for their membership in the communist party or their refusal to snitch out their colleagues.
If Zinn was a red, more power to him! If he chose to keep this to himself, I for one can understand why!
Posted by Chicano Wobbly on Aug 3, 2010 at 9:42 AM
The problem is not being a communist per se, the problem is that they’re so intent on changing the country into something probably at least 90% of us don’t want it to be. That of course is the reason he kept it a secret. He knew how utterly unpopular his ideology was, and is. If he just wanted to live in some commune somewhere in the woods, fine. But don’t try to interfere so profoundly with the rest of our freely chosen pursuits.
Communism just hasn’t worked out that well through history. That’s because it’s fundamentally in opposition to any concept of genuine liberty—which of course is the reason people are forever trying to get into this country, and not trying to break out of it.
Since he WAS indeed a communist, his writings need to be filtered through that mindset. It seems to me that most communist leaders, movers and shakers, had to employ a lot of disinformation and distortion of both history and current events, not to mention murder—to survive.
Posted by Natalie on Aug 5, 2010 at 12:49 AM
I’ve lived in this country all of my life and I have failed to see the “liberty” that you refer to. As to communism not working that well, do you think that capitalism has been a complete success for working people? I would say that capitalism has not worked for us, never has and never will! Communism or socialism is NOT perfect, but it is more humane when applied correctly.
Most people in the U.S. do not accept the concept of communism because they do not understand it and they have been filled with false information by our news media and government.. If things under communism in the former Societ Union were as terrible as our government would have us believe, then why did thousands of people NOT die when the Soviet government fell? As I remember the fall of the Soviet government was pretty much bloodless and NO reports of the citizens being slaughtered by the military. If we attempted such a thing here, without a doubt we would be crushed by the military under direct orders from our so-called freedom loving government!
Posted by Chicano Wobbly on Aug 5, 2010 at 3:11 PM
You haven’t “seen the liberty”? Do you ever leave the house? You’re apparently not trying very hard. That’s kinda the whole point of America—you strive. There’s loads and loads of what you call opportunity.
Actually capitalism has been responsible for giving millions a standard of living that blows away anything any communist nation has ever been able to offer its “subjects”. Because there’s no incentive to excel. There’s no incentive to create. Do you really in your wildest dreams think you’d be able today to enjoy something called the Internet on a device that’s been falling in price and gaining in capability—had communism won out?
If you do, you are truly—dreaming.
People understand perfectly well what communism’s all about. They reject it because it’s fundamentally flawed—that is if you happen to believe that the individual should be in charge of him or herself, not that some government or official agency should be in charge of THEM.
Well no, the soviet government didn’t kill its people when it fell because it was broke and beaten. Why do you think that was? And—this time the world was watching. But that doesn’t change the fact that it DID kill millions in decades previous. Along with pretty much every other communist country. I guess they just weren’t doing it right.
Why in the world do you continue to live in such a bleak, liberty-less country? Why not Cuba? It’s just a raft-ride away. And they’ve got great health care, I’ve heard.
Posted by Natalie on Aug 5, 2010 at 6:55 PM
The problem with capitalist dominated schools is that they fail to show just how useless the bosses really are. If not for workers there would be no profits! It is our labor that makes the bastards rich!
If capitalism is so democratic, how is it that between 1-3% of our population own and control the government, the news media, the banking industry, insurance industry, the entertainment industry, our school systems and even our places of worship? How does such a minority earn the right to control everything, while those of us who toil get the shaft?
No you are dreaming or you are a dye in the wool Republican. As to Cuba, I plan to retire there. Their healthcare system is considered to be good when one considers the size of their country and it’s governmental budget. Just goes to show you, capitalism is all about the love of money!
The good book teaches us that the love of money is the root of all evil, and that’s according to Jesus NOT Marx!
Anyway you are entitled to your opinions regardless of how flawed they are!
Posted by Chicano Wobbly on Aug 6, 2010 at 2:20 PM
Hmmm…. just noticing your flag says Germany. Are you really an American, as implied?
What’s all this nonsense about “working people”? Sounds like commie talk. What exactly is your definition of “working people”?
Here in America, people work, at whatever they choose. They start at the bottom, and there’s opportunity galore to move up to wherever they choose, whether it’s to go into the media, the government, or be the owner or manager of a private company. That doesn’t mean they stop “working”. Nobody’s keeping you down except yourself.
If you’re really a German who’s got a love for communism, please don’t come here since you probably can’t handle liberty. And if you indeed go to Cuba I’m afraid you’re in for a rude awakening. Be prepared to leave your Internet behind, for one thing. And if you happen to get some disease or need an operation of any sophistication, I hope you’re prepared to be told that it’s just not covered. It’s just too taxing on our system. Sorry. Hey, we’re going that way ourselves if Obama and co. continue to have their way.
The love of money is completely different from having the freedom to make however much of it you want, and what you do with it. Capitalism is a byproduct, a symptom if you will—of freedom. It’s another way of saying people can do what THEY want, not what some government says they can do.
It just seems to me if our capitalist system was so flawed, so oppressive, so unfair, so unjust—that our fences and walls, the few we have, would be meant to keep people in, not out.
Think about it.
Posted by Natalie on Aug 6, 2010 at 10:25 PM
Exactly, Natalie. I agree with how you ended your final post. You’ve been locked up in some cage for too long. Wake up. You’re not the majority, not everything is well, and the sooner you wake up, the sooner you can start making the US something we all can be proud of again.
Posted by doto on Aug 9, 2010 at 12:00 AM
I wonder if we are all read the same article. Did anyone read these words:
In pondering whether dropping the bomb was just or unjust, we rarely hear the testimony of a 16-year-old Japanese schoolgirl who saw “a woman with her jaw missing and her tongue hanging out of her mouth … crying for help.” Or a fifth-grader’s remembrance: “I do not know how many times I beg[ged] they would cut off my burned arms and legs.”
I don’t see how this can be interpreted as communist propaganda. It is an indictment against war in general and bombing in particular.
You don’t have to be a communist to oppose killing civilians, nor does being a patriotic American mean that you have do condone it. Unfortunately, we have done this all too often throughout our history.
Posted by Ohioan on Aug 10, 2010 at 6:20 AM
A true patriot is anyone who has the courage to challenge the unjust or invalid authority of one’s governent! For the right wing, patriotism has been interpreted as BLIND ALLEGIANCE TO ONE’S GOVERNMENT, RIGHT OR WRONG! Such simple thinking makes it very easy for people like Adolf Hitler to gain control and commit the atrocities that he did!
So when people dare to question my patriotism, I remind them that this nation was founded by people who dared to dissent. Our government is not infallible and it is our right and duty to question it when we believe it has engaged in immoral or illegal conduct!
Getting back to the subject, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was completely unnecessary, barbaric and racist in nature! However our military has a legacy for slaughtering innocent civilians including children, especially if they are people of color! This barbaric mentality continues today in Afghanistan and Iraq!
Posted by Chicano Wobbly on Aug 10, 2010 at 8:54 AM
What if Communism wasn’t the same as Bolshevism? Would socialism provide harm to the US or would they be ruled by elites than?
In any case it is surprising how the US managed to ignore their war crimes, including mudering the inhabitants of two cities by non-conventional means because they lacked the courage and bravery to fight and win war against Japan according to the rules of combat. When you point that out Americans will whine about the Pearl Harbour attack.
Posted by Kurt Erb on Aug 12, 2010 at 2:49 AM
“I don’t see how this can be interpreted as communist propaganda. It is an indictment against war in general and bombing in particular.
You don’t have to be a communist to oppose killing civilians, nor does being a patriotic American mean that you have do condone it. Unfortunately, we have done this all too often throughout our history.”—Ohioan
No not necessarily; there’s plenty of misguided revisionists running around spouting the same thing about the bombing of Japan who aren’t necessarily communists. But it should be noted that the first and foremost opposition to anything the U.S. does militarily comes from communist, and communist off-shoot organizations. That seems to be part of their “cause”, the purpose of which is quite obviously to weaken the will of the U.S. to use its military for anything, anywhere, anytime. Thus, Zinn’s views and opinions rightfully need to be considered from the perspective that he was, indeed, a communist.
Nobody in the U.S. wants, or wanted to, kill civilians. But the alternative to dropping the bombs would have resulted in vastly more civilian deaths, not to mention military deaths, on both sides. That plus the prospect of the Soviets invading Japan and setting up a potentially world-changing tug-o-war of historic proportions.
Zinn’s “history” was flawed. He was a revisionist, and a propagandist. That he has been confirmed as a communist at least bodes well for him that he perhaps wasn’t simply stupid and misguided, but carrying out a deliberate mission to weaken and defame the very country that provided him total freedom to do just that.
In practically any communist country, or Japan, (if it had continued its imperialistic and savagely murderous ways) he would have been permanently imprisoned or killed had he dared to speak out against them, for whatever reason.
Posted by Natalie on Aug 12, 2010 at 6:58 PM
Natalie wrote:
“But it should be noted that the first and foremost opposition to anything the U.S. does militarily comes from communist, and communist off-shoot organizations.”
Brilliant. According to your statement, if I oppose something that the U.S. does militarily then I am a communist or a member of a communist off-shoot organization. Gimme a break.
Please, Natalie, discuss the issue and stop dragging your ideology into this.
For example check a box:
Yes, I think it is cool to incinerate and/or blow into dogfood civilian populations if it furthers the interests of the US Government.
No, I do not think it is cool to incinerate and/or blow into dogfood civilian populations if it furthers the interests of the US Government.
Please, Natalie, just answer that question with a yes or no.
Posted by Ohioan on Aug 13, 2010 at 6:35 AM
“Brilliant” job of selective editing and interpretation.
Perhaps just re-read my comment, for starters. How is it that you can say that I’m not discussing the issue? Of course I discussed the issue. I addressed the bombing of Japan in several ways. I raised the point that Zinn was a communist, and thus HIS views on the subject are suspect, BECAUSE communists are first in line to oppose ANY military efforts this country puts forth. That doesn’t make YOU a communist; just sympathetic to their collective mindset, apparently. At least on this issue.
Yes, I AM in favor of blowing into dogfood civilian populations. But only IF that blowing into dogfood PREVENTS far more members of the civilian population, and the military population, from being killed—dogfood or not it hardly matters.
The purpose of any country’s military is to further the interests of that particular country. In the case of WWII, including the bombing of Japan, that interest happened to be avoiding living under either Nazi occupation and its inevitable ethnic cleansing practices, or Japanese imperialism and their particular brand of same. (Watch the whole thing, if you dare, and see if perhaps you don’t start to understand the depth and depravity of Japan’s ambitions, and their own practice of turning all non-Japanese people into “dogfood”.
The U.S. effort seems to mean nothing to you, and for some reason you, Chicano W. and Zinn erroneously reverse the roles of good and evil in your minds. But that effort should mean everything to you, because even though you’re apparently not an American, had America and its allies not prevailed, you too, wherever you are in Europe, would have been subject to something not at all resembling freedom of any kind.
Posted by Natalie on Aug 13, 2010 at 1:07 PM
The death toll in Hiroshima by December 1945 is thought to be 90,000-120,000. The death toll in Nagasaki by December 1945 is thought to be 60,000-80,000.
The death toll in the battle of Manila was about 1,000,000 million civiliains deliberately killed by Japanese troops. The death toll in the Rape of Nanking was 3-4 million civilians deliberately killed by Japanese troops. The battles of Saipan and Okinawa had a very high casualty rate for both Japanese troops and Allied troops, with many Japanese civilians committing suicide. It was obvious that the Japanese would fight to the death when we invaded the Japanese home islands. American casualties were expected to be in the range of one million, with higher casualties for Japanese troops and civilians.
A better plan was required. The atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki made a graphic statement that Japan had lost, with relatively few casualties compared to past history or future projections.
So, what are you Marxists really complaining about?
Posted by scorp on Aug 14, 2010 at 8:24 PM
>>even though you’re apparently not an American Posted by Natalie
Thank you for demonstrating your ability and willingness to make and then act upon false assumptions.
Posted by Ohioan on Aug 15, 2010 at 6:47 AM
@Natalie,
On a more positive note, I would like to add that I have now seen the first 13 minutes of the video you recommended (My computer didn’t seem to want to load the rest of it.). Thank you for that.
Don’t expect me to try to justify Japanese atrocities. Or those of the Nazis for that matter. The Germans and Japanese were the aggressors in World War II. The Allied defense was the last military action that I have no doubt was moral and necessary.
But the film also reaffirmed my opinion that it is really nasty to drop bombs on people, regardless of the reason. Actually, I think that killing people in general is a poor idea. And I espouse the principle that two wrongs don’t make a right. The thing about bombs is that they tend to be directed toward civilian populations, predominantly women and children.
But getting back to the original topic, dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, wiser men than I have suggested that the first bomb may well have saved an incalcuable number of Allied lives, but that the justification of the bombing of Nagasaki was gratuitous. I wasn’t alive at the time.
And I would like to pose this reformulated question:
Is it okay to bomb civilian populations?
Yes.
No.
Consider how this list of people may respond:
Ohioan
Natalie
Stalin
Churchill
Hitler
Roosevelt
Jesus
Ghandi
George Bush
George W. Bush
Lyndon Johnson
Richard Nixon
Khrushchev
Mao
Posted by Ohioan on Aug 15, 2010 at 10:56 AM
Thank you scorp for adding to the perspective that so many are blind to for some perverse reason I can scarcely fathom. Most importantly Zinn—considering his substantial corrosive influence on developing, naive minds.
My apologies for jumping to apparently erroneous conclusions regarding national origins or locations based on these silly flags that ITT displays. Perhaps it’s an extremely inaccurate indication, due to server location technicalities??? Now Ohioan’s flag says Germany, when before it said simply Europe. I guess I’ll just assume he/she’s an “Ohioan”.
But it’s hardly central to anything I said, and I didn’t “act upon” anything. I used the word “apparently”. What really matters are facts and a proper reading of history, not a “World According to Zinn the Communist” interpretation colored by irrational biases and hatreds based on God only knows what.
With respect to your listings, Ohioan, you seem to show some understanding that we the U.S. were the “good guys” in WWII, and Germany and Japan were the ruthless power and territorial aggressors. Given that, and given an understanding of just how determined and brainwashed these people were, why can’t you understand that sometimes a person or a nation simply has to do what it needs to do to survive, and thus continue to be the “good guy”? Continue to be a force for freedom in the world, a force of liberation from the tyranny that is all too dominant in world history?
Had we and other good nations not prevailed, freedom and liberty would simply have died back in the 40’s. It’s really not that long ago. The Ghandis of the world have their place, and they influence lots of people in a peaceful direction.
But there’s a time for a Ghandi, and there’s a time for a Little Boy.
Posted by Natalie on Aug 15, 2010 at 11:07 AM
The Marxists are not complaining about anything. It is only the neo-fascists who seem to be obsessed with nuking the world into billions of glowing pieces.
My original comment was that my dad, a world War II veteran stated that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both barbaric and racist in nature. I agree as the U.S. military has a legacy of slaughtering innocent civilians including the elderly, women and children.
Unlike you folks who blindly support the worst in our government, those of us on the left with a conscience will speak out and continue to do so.
No amount of provocation or name calling will ever stop us.
Now I will put this thing to rest because I am now getting quite bored responding to the moronic statements of Natalie and her equally ignorant cohorts.
Posted by Chicano Wobbly on Aug 16, 2010 at 1:55 PM
We need to all thank our lucky, liberty stars that folks of the same mind as Chicano and Ohioan were NOT in charge during WWII. Or during the Cold War.
Theirs is a remarkable display of naiveté, superficially noble, but on a deeper more substantive and practical level, suicidal and horrendously ignorant.
Posted by Natalie on Aug 17, 2010 at 10:28 AM
Amen to that, Sister.
If I were elected President, I would probably be assisinated faster than Natalie could say “Marxist Commie lover marionette”.
Posted by Ohioan on Aug 19, 2010 at 7:31 AM
No, you’d be alright. The last two presidential assassinations were carried out by a socialist anarchist, and a communist.
The types that worshipped, or would have worshiped Zinn, in other words.
Posted by Natalie on Aug 21, 2010 at 12:21 PM
Dear Natalie,
Did you know that Howard Zinn was a communist?
I think he was born in Kenya, not sure though.
Posted by brian carey on Sep 5, 2010 at 3:01 PM
What could have been a true analysis of Zinn’s refletive thoughts about war has turned into the usual attack on marxism, communism, bla, bla.
Natalie and Scorp are of course the “sophists” in charge .
Since you are both living in a perfect system and enjoy every lie you are fed daily, and enjoy your freeedom and can build your own futures, why do you waste your precious time reading this kind of articles?
USA invaded Irak and Afghanistan for very good reasons, war is amply justified when there is oil at stake, drug-dealing in Latin America with all its side effects is well justified so the large part of USA population that consumes them can get their doses.Everything is going as planned, you have God on your side (and in your dollar bills), so why worry if Zinn liked marxists ideas, he is dead now and by the way, aren’t you supposed to live in a free country where each person has the right to have his own ideas ?
Posted by Maria on Sep 17, 2010 at 5:11 PM
Maria!
Long time no hear from you, lady. I was just thinking of you recently.
Remember the discussion we had about Chile and Allende a few years ago? Your point was that the nasty old United States ruined the noble Marxist experiment in Chile. My point was that Allende was incompetent, inefficient, and corrupt as all Marxists are, and his Marxist policies, assisted by the KGB, wrecked the Chilean agricultural sector and brought horrendous inflation to a country that had mineral (copper) wealth out the ying-yang. Allende was also trying to subvert neighboring states.
So, now we have Chavez trying a very similar noble Marxist experiment in Venezuela. My point now is that Chavez is incompetent, inefficient, and corrupt as all Marxists are, and his Marxist policies, assisted by the FSB, are wrecking the Venezuelan agricultural sector and bringing horrendous inflation to a country that has mineral (oil) wealth out the ying-yang. Chavez is also trying to subvert neighboring states.
But stuff happens and things change. Russia is as inefficient, incompetent, and corrupt as it ever was under the USSR, and we know that noble Marxist states always crash and burn, with or without the assistance of the KGB/FSB. So, the USA has defended freedom in, say Columbia and Honduras, and allowed Venezuela to stew in their own Marxist stupidity. Surely you approve of the United States hands-off policy toward Venezuela?
No one believes or pretends that the USA is perfect. As Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others.
If you really believe with Zinn that the USA is so bad, why don’t you go to Venezuela and mobilize the agricultural workers there? They really need help and are hungry. But please be careful. Somehow the noble Marxist experiment in Venezuela has resulted in the highest murder rate in the Western Hemisphere, and maybe in the world.
Posted by scorp on Sep 18, 2010 at 8:54 AM
Curious how you conveniently exclude Mexico from your fascist rant about violence south of the border.
Posted by brian carey on Sep 18, 2010 at 10:52 AM
and another thing, what about that teeny weeny little nightmare after the assassination of Allende, who like Chavez was democratically elected.
Why do you bother us, aren’t their enough right wing sites that will be enthralled w your vast knowledge of history?
Posted by brian carey on Sep 18, 2010 at 11:01 AM
Right, Scorp, Marx is still the most inefficient, dangerous and corrupt being in History. Fortunately, you had Bush and Cheney to protect you from evil, and if many innocent people have been murdered in the process they surely deserved it, for living on a land that has oil underneath. You are a true humanist
Posted by Maria on Sep 18, 2010 at 5:40 PM
Maria, this for you,
Ha, ha, you got fooled again.
You is fool.
Rich boss smarter than you ! !
Posted by baboon on Sep 19, 2010 at 2:26 AM
Yes, baboon I are fool and I are happy to be fool.
To be smart is not the same as to be intelligent.
Rich master’s smartness is causing pain and misery to many.
While the masters continue creating wars and enemies, piling up deadlier weapons and contaminating the earth in their greedy process of accumulation, among cheers and clapping from “useful idiots”, millions of silent human beings continue working to make a living or trying to mend and patch the disasters caused by blind and arrogant greed.
I rather be in their number. and I don’t envy the master’s fortunes.
Posted by Maria on Sep 19, 2010 at 12:29 PM
Sorry Maria ,
I tagged that wrong, My comment was meant for Natalie’s rant
on Zinn.
“Many people in the the United States mistakinly believe that the Standard
of living and amenities which they still enjoy are somehow the automatic
result of their own merits, or else simply self-evident. Such illusory
beliefs are tradicallly wrong. Such benifits as the eight hour day, the
40hr, the child labor laws, workers compensation, the minimum wage,
and the social safety net…......”
Webster Tarpley
Labor Struggles Have Delivered Economic Progress——-
Not Cartelized “Free Market”
This is exactly what Zinn’s message was…..
there is nothing communist about it,, just fact.
and I would like Natalie to please be specific on just what part of
Zinn’s history book she believes to be a lie.,, or I wonder if she even
read it.
Posted by baboon on Sep 19, 2010 at 3:13 PM
Maria -
Naaaah, Marx was a stupid, smelly little jerk who mistakenly believed that the workers of the world were ripe for revolution and would spontaneously arise to take charge of their own destinies. That has never happened, so elitists have stepped in to promote the worldwide revolution. Had the workers been interested, we would have been much better off with the workers in charge, as workers tend to be practical lot, and you elitists are impractical dingbats who screw up everything you touch: The Social Security System is going to go bankrupt, Medicare is going to go bankrupt, LBJ’s War on Poverty cost $6.6 trillion and made the condition of the poor far worse, and the Democrats’ Unaffordable Housing Project damn near wrecked the world economy. Given the elitists’ perpetual and massive failures, one begins to suspect that the elitists really do want to wreck the world economy. Why? To create equal poverty around the world?
I have no need for protection from Bush and Cheney, as the Constitution recognized that all people have the God-given right to protect themselves.
My text is not from Bush-Cheney, but from the Constitution of the United States of America, which has been serially violated by Marxist infiltrators. Marxists ran openly as socialists and communists during the Great Depression. And lost, badly. So they hijacked the progressive lable, the liberal label, back to the progressive label again, or refer to themselves as leftists or free-thinkers to disguise their rigid destructive ideological thinking.
So, Marxist is a blanket term for all sorts of people who have adopted collectivist thinking and want to disguise their true beliefs.
Enjoy.
Posted by scorp on Sep 19, 2010 at 3:18 PM
“And guess what this liberal would be all about. This liberal will be about socializing … uh, um. ….... Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies”—- Maxine Waters, (M) California
The oil executives responded by saying they’ve seen this before, in Hugo Chavez’s Venezuela.
This is what is boiling just beneath the surface in the minds of far too many supposed “liberals” in DC. They’re not liberals, anything but. In fact the polar opposite of anything resembling liberty.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 21, 2010 at 5:24 PM
Oh my God! How annoying you must be in person!
Posted by brian carey on Sep 21, 2010 at 6:08 PM
Natalie concerning Zinn being a former communist:
“Communism just hasn’t worked out that well through history. That’s because it’s fundamentally in opposition to any concept of genuine liberty—which of course is the reason people are forever trying to get into this country, and not trying to break out of it.”
All your comments are target rich and naive. What do you mean by genuine liberty? The liberty implemented under the Military Commission’s and Patriot Act? Actually statistics show that immigration into this country has slowed down and some are willingly returning to their native countries. Many Americans, more than most countries, are in prison, they couldn’t break out of this country if they wanted to. How, considering the financial melt-down and Wall Street bail-outs, is dog-eat-dog capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich working out for you?
Posted by da vinci on Oct 23, 2010 at 2:58 AM
If you’re looking for perfection, you’ve come to the wrong place. If you’re interested in the best chance and potential for achieving as close to it as possible, hang around.
Genuine liberty in the context of governing systems means said system offers everyone an equal opportunity to define their lives and pursuits pretty much however he/she wants to, within reasonable bounds of civil, ethical behavior. This of course does not mean that men operating under this system are perfect, but men are men. That’s not the fault of our overall governing system, which is very nearly perfect, it’s the fault of imperfect human beings ignoring its basic tenets.
But if one combines imperfect human beings with an imperfect inherently anti-liberty system such as communism, then you invariably get human misery. Men don’t have equal rights, much less rights period—- to speak, associate, arm themselves, publish, petition and protest. (without fear of death or imprisonment) These are the instruments of genuine liberty, and indeed the instruments by which we regularly and effectively defeat attempts even in this country to deny others their Divine endowments.
But surely you know this stuff. Surely you know that the complaints and problems you point out do not begin to somehow justify an equivalence between a collectivist and an individualist system, in terms of again …. genuine liberty.
But you’re right, at the rate we’re going, many are recognizing that they’re becoming a slave to the federal government, and seeing other actually freer by comparison countries. But that’s not the fault of our system as originally envisioned, it’s the fault of imperfect tramplers upon it. We need to throw overboard those who are drilling holes in the bottom of our luxury cruise liner, patch them, and cruise on. On the other hand, collectivist systems are drifting along on their flimsy log rafts, with no mechanism or potential for fixing or changing the basic design of their vessels.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 24, 2010 at 6:50 PM
I appreciate what Howard Zinn did for me, which was to help open my eyes and deprogram myself. As far as war is concerned, the people that truely suffer are the helpless, that is women, children, elderly and diabled, killed off by the millions. It is no different today than it was in 1931-45 (no I did not get the dates wrong). I am reading a book entitled “A Glorius Way To Die” about the sinking of the battleship Yamato. Japan was completely helpless by the spring of 1945. The Empire was litterally running out of fuel. In fact they began to put out feelers for terms I think in June. Of course books have been written about this, pro and con on the issue of the “bombs”.
Unfortunately, war is glorified in this country. We love it, because it has not come our way yet. 9-11 was almost a decade ago, and does not even approach what other countries have experienced, and still experience today. The true cost of a diamond or gold ring, or a gallon of gas produces a 9-11 everyday, somewhere in the world.
Gary
Posted by Gary L. Crowell on Nov 6, 2010 at 8:46 PM
Just to let you know, I wrote an entry on The ITT List blog inspired in part by some of the comments in this discussion: http://www.theittlist.com/site/ittlist/ind/5902/
Posted by Joe Macaré on Feb 1, 2011 at 11:03 AM
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My father was a radio operator on the B-17 with the U.S. Army Air Corps, stationed in the Pacific during World War II. I remember him telling us that he never saw first hand the devastation of bombing the Japanese, but he did state; “I knew people were being killed.”
Any real warrior will tell you that killing the enemy is never a glorious thing, it is never something one wishes to brag about and it is certainly not something one discusses over the dinner table with one’s family. My dad who is about to complete 87 years of age never did and for this I admire and respect him.
As to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki my father feels both were not only wrong, they were completely unnecessary. “The Japanese were close to surrender.Dropping atomic bombs on both cities was barbaric and racist.” Profound analogy for a working class man who served in war.
War is never a pleasant thing. Many argue that it is pointless. Personally I have never served in a war and hope I never will have to. I do believe that there are more than enough unjustified wars that our country has gotten involved in. I would NOT put World War II in that category as the world was threatened by fascism from Germany, Italy and Japan. The wars in Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Iraq I, Bosnia, Iraq II and Afghanistan are all wars that never should have occurred.
When working people can exert control as to who we will go to war against or who we will sit down and negotiate settlements with, then and only then will we have reached the ultimate level of democracy. Until then, our sons and daughters will in all probability continue to be sent off to fight in the interestss of U.S. imperialism and the politcians will continue to label their actions as “heroic”! How tragic!
Perhaps just a little late for the presses, but it’s curious that such an article fails to mention that Zinn was not only a genuine communist, but he lied about it.
http://tinyurl.com/Zinn-communist
Not that there’s anything wrong with that, right? If not, why did he go to such great lengths to hide his true allegiances?
Natalie, obviously you are not familiar with the tremendous suffering and persecution that communists went through during the McCarthy era. Thousands of reds were fired from their jobs and the labor movement eager to impress the right wing expelled them from their ranks. Hollywood actors and other cultural workers were also black listed for their membership in the communist party or their refusal to snitch out their colleagues.
If Zinn was a red, more power to him! If he chose to keep this to himself, I for one can understand why!
The problem is not being a communist per se, the problem is that they’re so intent on changing the country into something probably at least 90% of us don’t want it to be. That of course is the reason he kept it a secret. He knew how utterly unpopular his ideology was, and is. If he just wanted to live in some commune somewhere in the woods, fine. But don’t try to interfere so profoundly with the rest of our freely chosen pursuits.
Communism just hasn’t worked out that well through history. That’s because it’s fundamentally in opposition to any concept of genuine liberty—which of course is the reason people are forever trying to get into this country, and not trying to break out of it.
Since he WAS indeed a communist, his writings need to be filtered through that mindset. It seems to me that most communist leaders, movers and shakers, had to employ a lot of disinformation and distortion of both history and current events, not to mention murder—to survive.
I’ve lived in this country all of my life and I have failed to see the “liberty” that you refer to. As to communism not working that well, do you think that capitalism has been a complete success for working people? I would say that capitalism has not worked for us, never has and never will! Communism or socialism is NOT perfect, but it is more humane when applied correctly.
Most people in the U.S. do not accept the concept of communism because they do not understand it and they have been filled with false information by our news media and government.. If things under communism in the former Societ Union were as terrible as our government would have us believe, then why did thousands of people NOT die when the Soviet government fell? As I remember the fall of the Soviet government was pretty much bloodless and NO reports of the citizens being slaughtered by the military. If we attempted such a thing here, without a doubt we would be crushed by the military under direct orders from our so-called freedom loving government!
You haven’t “seen the liberty”? Do you ever leave the house? You’re apparently not trying very hard. That’s kinda the whole point of America—you strive. There’s loads and loads of what you call opportunity.
Actually capitalism has been responsible for giving millions a standard of living that blows away anything any communist nation has ever been able to offer its “subjects”. Because there’s no incentive to excel. There’s no incentive to create. Do you really in your wildest dreams think you’d be able today to enjoy something called the Internet on a device that’s been falling in price and gaining in capability—had communism won out?
If you do, you are truly—dreaming.
People understand perfectly well what communism’s all about. They reject it because it’s fundamentally flawed—that is if you happen to believe that the individual should be in charge of him or herself, not that some government or official agency should be in charge of THEM.
Well no, the soviet government didn’t kill its people when it fell because it was broke and beaten. Why do you think that was? And—this time the world was watching. But that doesn’t change the fact that it DID kill millions in decades previous. Along with pretty much every other communist country. I guess they just weren’t doing it right.
Why in the world do you continue to live in such a bleak, liberty-less country? Why not Cuba? It’s just a raft-ride away. And they’ve got great health care, I’ve heard.
The problem with capitalist dominated schools is that they fail to show just how useless the bosses really are. If not for workers there would be no profits! It is our labor that makes the bastards rich!
If capitalism is so democratic, how is it that between 1-3% of our population own and control the government, the news media, the banking industry, insurance industry, the entertainment industry, our school systems and even our places of worship? How does such a minority earn the right to control everything, while those of us who toil get the shaft?
No you are dreaming or you are a dye in the wool Republican. As to Cuba, I plan to retire there. Their healthcare system is considered to be good when one considers the size of their country and it’s governmental budget. Just goes to show you, capitalism is all about the love of money!
The good book teaches us that the love of money is the root of all evil, and that’s according to Jesus NOT Marx!
Anyway you are entitled to your opinions regardless of how flawed they are!
Hmmm…. just noticing your flag says Germany. Are you really an American, as implied?
What’s all this nonsense about “working people”? Sounds like commie talk. What exactly is your definition of “working people”?
Here in America, people work, at whatever they choose. They start at the bottom, and there’s opportunity galore to move up to wherever they choose, whether it’s to go into the media, the government, or be the owner or manager of a private company. That doesn’t mean they stop “working”. Nobody’s keeping you down except yourself.
If you’re really a German who’s got a love for communism, please don’t come here since you probably can’t handle liberty. And if you indeed go to Cuba I’m afraid you’re in for a rude awakening. Be prepared to leave your Internet behind, for one thing. And if you happen to get some disease or need an operation of any sophistication, I hope you’re prepared to be told that it’s just not covered. It’s just too taxing on our system. Sorry. Hey, we’re going that way ourselves if Obama and co. continue to have their way.
The love of money is completely different from having the freedom to make however much of it you want, and what you do with it. Capitalism is a byproduct, a symptom if you will—of freedom. It’s another way of saying people can do what THEY want, not what some government says they can do.
It just seems to me if our capitalist system was so flawed, so oppressive, so unfair, so unjust—that our fences and walls, the few we have, would be meant to keep people in, not out.
Think about it.
Exactly, Natalie. I agree with how you ended your final post. You’ve been locked up in some cage for too long. Wake up. You’re not the majority, not everything is well, and the sooner you wake up, the sooner you can start making the US something we all can be proud of again.
I wonder if we are all read the same article. Did anyone read these words:
In pondering whether dropping the bomb was just or unjust, we rarely hear the testimony of a 16-year-old Japanese schoolgirl who saw “a woman with her jaw missing and her tongue hanging out of her mouth … crying for help.” Or a fifth-grader’s remembrance: “I do not know how many times I beg[ged] they would cut off my burned arms and legs.”
I don’t see how this can be interpreted as communist propaganda. It is an indictment against war in general and bombing in particular.
You don’t have to be a communist to oppose killing civilians, nor does being a patriotic American mean that you have do condone it. Unfortunately, we have done this all too often throughout our history.
A true patriot is anyone who has the courage to challenge the unjust or invalid authority of one’s governent! For the right wing, patriotism has been interpreted as BLIND ALLEGIANCE TO ONE’S GOVERNMENT, RIGHT OR WRONG! Such simple thinking makes it very easy for people like Adolf Hitler to gain control and commit the atrocities that he did!
So when people dare to question my patriotism, I remind them that this nation was founded by people who dared to dissent. Our government is not infallible and it is our right and duty to question it when we believe it has engaged in immoral or illegal conduct!
Getting back to the subject, the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was completely unnecessary, barbaric and racist in nature! However our military has a legacy for slaughtering innocent civilians including children, especially if they are people of color! This barbaric mentality continues today in Afghanistan and Iraq!
What if Communism wasn’t the same as Bolshevism? Would socialism provide harm to the US or would they be ruled by elites than?
In any case it is surprising how the US managed to ignore their war crimes, including mudering the inhabitants of two cities by non-conventional means because they lacked the courage and bravery to fight and win war against Japan according to the rules of combat. When you point that out Americans will whine about the Pearl Harbour attack.
“I don’t see how this can be interpreted as communist propaganda. It is an indictment against war in general and bombing in particular.
You don’t have to be a communist to oppose killing civilians, nor does being a patriotic American mean that you have do condone it. Unfortunately, we have done this all too often throughout our history.”—Ohioan
No not necessarily; there’s plenty of misguided revisionists running around spouting the same thing about the bombing of Japan who aren’t necessarily communists. But it should be noted that the first and foremost opposition to anything the U.S. does militarily comes from communist, and communist off-shoot organizations. That seems to be part of their “cause”, the purpose of which is quite obviously to weaken the will of the U.S. to use its military for anything, anywhere, anytime. Thus, Zinn’s views and opinions rightfully need to be considered from the perspective that he was, indeed, a communist.
Nobody in the U.S. wants, or wanted to, kill civilians. But the alternative to dropping the bombs would have resulted in vastly more civilian deaths, not to mention military deaths, on both sides. That plus the prospect of the Soviets invading Japan and setting up a potentially world-changing tug-o-war of historic proportions.
Zinn’s “history” was flawed. He was a revisionist, and a propagandist. That he has been confirmed as a communist at least bodes well for him that he perhaps wasn’t simply stupid and misguided, but carrying out a deliberate mission to weaken and defame the very country that provided him total freedom to do just that.
In practically any communist country, or Japan, (if it had continued its imperialistic and savagely murderous ways) he would have been permanently imprisoned or killed had he dared to speak out against them, for whatever reason.
Natalie wrote:
“But it should be noted that the first and foremost opposition to anything the U.S. does militarily comes from communist, and communist off-shoot organizations.”
Brilliant. According to your statement, if I oppose something that the U.S. does militarily then I am a communist or a member of a communist off-shoot organization. Gimme a break.
Please, Natalie, discuss the issue and stop dragging your ideology into this.
For example check a box:
Yes, I think it is cool to incinerate and/or blow into dogfood civilian populations if it furthers the interests of the US Government.
No, I do not think it is cool to incinerate and/or blow into dogfood civilian populations if it furthers the interests of the US Government.
Please, Natalie, just answer that question with a yes or no.
“Brilliant” job of selective editing and interpretation.
Perhaps just re-read my comment, for starters. How is it that you can say that I’m not discussing the issue? Of course I discussed the issue. I addressed the bombing of Japan in several ways. I raised the point that Zinn was a communist, and thus HIS views on the subject are suspect, BECAUSE communists are first in line to oppose ANY military efforts this country puts forth. That doesn’t make YOU a communist; just sympathetic to their collective mindset, apparently. At least on this issue.
Yes, I AM in favor of blowing into dogfood civilian populations. But only IF that blowing into dogfood PREVENTS far more members of the civilian population, and the military population, from being killed—dogfood or not it hardly matters.
The purpose of any country’s military is to further the interests of that particular country. In the case of WWII, including the bombing of Japan, that interest happened to be avoiding living under either Nazi occupation and its inevitable ethnic cleansing practices, or Japanese imperialism and their particular brand of same. (Watch the whole thing, if you dare, and see if perhaps you don’t start to understand the depth and depravity of Japan’s ambitions, and their own practice of turning all non-Japanese people into “dogfood”.
The U.S. effort seems to mean nothing to you, and for some reason you, Chicano W. and Zinn erroneously reverse the roles of good and evil in your minds. But that effort should mean everything to you, because even though you’re apparently not an American, had America and its allies not prevailed, you too, wherever you are in Europe, would have been subject to something not at all resembling freedom of any kind.
The death toll in Hiroshima by December 1945 is thought to be 90,000-120,000. The death toll in Nagasaki by December 1945 is thought to be 60,000-80,000.
The death toll in the battle of Manila was about 1,000,000 million civiliains deliberately killed by Japanese troops. The death toll in the Rape of Nanking was 3-4 million civilians deliberately killed by Japanese troops. The battles of Saipan and Okinawa had a very high casualty rate for both Japanese troops and Allied troops, with many Japanese civilians committing suicide. It was obvious that the Japanese would fight to the death when we invaded the Japanese home islands. American casualties were expected to be in the range of one million, with higher casualties for Japanese troops and civilians.
A better plan was required. The atomic bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki made a graphic statement that Japan had lost, with relatively few casualties compared to past history or future projections.
So, what are you Marxists really complaining about?
>>even though you’re apparently not an American Posted by Natalie
Thank you for demonstrating your ability and willingness to make and then act upon false assumptions.
@Natalie,
On a more positive note, I would like to add that I have now seen the first 13 minutes of the video you recommended (My computer didn’t seem to want to load the rest of it.). Thank you for that.
Don’t expect me to try to justify Japanese atrocities. Or those of the Nazis for that matter. The Germans and Japanese were the aggressors in World War II. The Allied defense was the last military action that I have no doubt was moral and necessary.
But the film also reaffirmed my opinion that it is really nasty to drop bombs on people, regardless of the reason. Actually, I think that killing people in general is a poor idea. And I espouse the principle that two wrongs don’t make a right. The thing about bombs is that they tend to be directed toward civilian populations, predominantly women and children.
But getting back to the original topic, dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, wiser men than I have suggested that the first bomb may well have saved an incalcuable number of Allied lives, but that the justification of the bombing of Nagasaki was gratuitous. I wasn’t alive at the time.
And I would like to pose this reformulated question:
Is it okay to bomb civilian populations?
Yes.
No.
Consider how this list of people may respond:
Ohioan
Natalie
Stalin
Churchill
Hitler
Roosevelt
Jesus
Ghandi
George Bush
George W. Bush
Lyndon Johnson
Richard Nixon
Khrushchev
Mao
Thank you scorp for adding to the perspective that so many are blind to for some perverse reason I can scarcely fathom. Most importantly Zinn—considering his substantial corrosive influence on developing, naive minds.
My apologies for jumping to apparently erroneous conclusions regarding national origins or locations based on these silly flags that ITT displays. Perhaps it’s an extremely inaccurate indication, due to server location technicalities??? Now Ohioan’s flag says Germany, when before it said simply Europe. I guess I’ll just assume he/she’s an “Ohioan”.
But it’s hardly central to anything I said, and I didn’t “act upon” anything. I used the word “apparently”. What really matters are facts and a proper reading of history, not a “World According to Zinn the Communist” interpretation colored by irrational biases and hatreds based on God only knows what.
With respect to your listings, Ohioan, you seem to show some understanding that we the U.S. were the “good guys” in WWII, and Germany and Japan were the ruthless power and territorial aggressors. Given that, and given an understanding of just how determined and brainwashed these people were, why can’t you understand that sometimes a person or a nation simply has to do what it needs to do to survive, and thus continue to be the “good guy”? Continue to be a force for freedom in the world, a force of liberation from the tyranny that is all too dominant in world history?
Had we and other good nations not prevailed, freedom and liberty would simply have died back in the 40’s. It’s really not that long ago. The Ghandis of the world have their place, and they influence lots of people in a peaceful direction.
But there’s a time for a Ghandi, and there’s a time for a Little Boy.
The Marxists are not complaining about anything. It is only the neo-fascists who seem to be obsessed with nuking the world into billions of glowing pieces.
My original comment was that my dad, a world War II veteran stated that the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both barbaric and racist in nature. I agree as the U.S. military has a legacy of slaughtering innocent civilians including the elderly, women and children.
Unlike you folks who blindly support the worst in our government, those of us on the left with a conscience will speak out and continue to do so.
No amount of provocation or name calling will ever stop us.
Now I will put this thing to rest because I am now getting quite bored responding to the moronic statements of Natalie and her equally ignorant cohorts.
We need to all thank our lucky, liberty stars that folks of the same mind as Chicano and Ohioan were NOT in charge during WWII. Or during the Cold War.
Theirs is a remarkable display of naiveté, superficially noble, but on a deeper more substantive and practical level, suicidal and horrendously ignorant.
Amen to that, Sister.
If I were elected President, I would probably be assisinated faster than Natalie could say “Marxist Commie lover marionette”.
No, you’d be alright. The last two presidential assassinations were carried out by a socialist anarchist, and a communist.
The types that worshipped, or would have worshiped Zinn, in other words.
Dear Natalie,
Did you know that Howard Zinn was a communist?
I think he was born in Kenya, not sure though.
What could have been a true analysis of Zinn’s refletive thoughts about war has turned into the usual attack on marxism, communism, bla, bla.
Natalie and Scorp are of course the “sophists” in charge .
Since you are both living in a perfect system and enjoy every lie you are fed daily, and enjoy your freeedom and can build your own futures, why do you waste your precious time reading this kind of articles?
USA invaded Irak and Afghanistan for very good reasons, war is amply justified when there is oil at stake, drug-dealing in Latin America with all its side effects is well justified so the large part of USA population that consumes them can get their doses.Everything is going as planned, you have God on your side (and in your dollar bills), so why worry if Zinn liked marxists ideas, he is dead now and by the way, aren’t you supposed to live in a free country where each person has the right to have his own ideas ?
Maria!
Long time no hear from you, lady. I was just thinking of you recently.
Remember the discussion we had about Chile and Allende a few years ago? Your point was that the nasty old United States ruined the noble Marxist experiment in Chile. My point was that Allende was incompetent, inefficient, and corrupt as all Marxists are, and his Marxist policies, assisted by the KGB, wrecked the Chilean agricultural sector and brought horrendous inflation to a country that had mineral (copper) wealth out the ying-yang. Allende was also trying to subvert neighboring states.
So, now we have Chavez trying a very similar noble Marxist experiment in Venezuela. My point now is that Chavez is incompetent, inefficient, and corrupt as all Marxists are, and his Marxist policies, assisted by the FSB, are wrecking the Venezuelan agricultural sector and bringing horrendous inflation to a country that has mineral (oil) wealth out the ying-yang. Chavez is also trying to subvert neighboring states.
But stuff happens and things change. Russia is as inefficient, incompetent, and corrupt as it ever was under the USSR, and we know that noble Marxist states always crash and burn, with or without the assistance of the KGB/FSB. So, the USA has defended freedom in, say Columbia and Honduras, and allowed Venezuela to stew in their own Marxist stupidity. Surely you approve of the United States hands-off policy toward Venezuela?
No one believes or pretends that the USA is perfect. As Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others.
If you really believe with Zinn that the USA is so bad, why don’t you go to Venezuela and mobilize the agricultural workers there? They really need help and are hungry. But please be careful. Somehow the noble Marxist experiment in Venezuela has resulted in the highest murder rate in the Western Hemisphere, and maybe in the world.
Curious how you conveniently exclude Mexico from your fascist rant about violence south of the border.
and another thing, what about that teeny weeny little nightmare after the assassination of Allende, who like Chavez was democratically elected.
Why do you bother us, aren’t their enough right wing sites that will be enthralled w your vast knowledge of history?
Right, Scorp, Marx is still the most inefficient, dangerous and corrupt being in History. Fortunately, you had Bush and Cheney to protect you from evil, and if many innocent people have been murdered in the process they surely deserved it, for living on a land that has oil underneath. You are a true humanist
Maria, this for you,
Ha, ha, you got fooled again.
You is fool.
Rich boss smarter than you ! !
Yes, baboon I are fool and I are happy to be fool.
To be smart is not the same as to be intelligent.
Rich master’s smartness is causing pain and misery to many.
While the masters continue creating wars and enemies, piling up deadlier weapons and contaminating the earth in their greedy process of accumulation, among cheers and clapping from “useful idiots”, millions of silent human beings continue working to make a living or trying to mend and patch the disasters caused by blind and arrogant greed.
I rather be in their number. and I don’t envy the master’s fortunes.
Sorry Maria ,
I tagged that wrong, My comment was meant for Natalie’s rant
on Zinn.
“Many people in the the United States mistakinly believe that the Standard
of living and amenities which they still enjoy are somehow the automatic
result of their own merits, or else simply self-evident. Such illusory
beliefs are tradicallly wrong. Such benifits as the eight hour day, the
40hr, the child labor laws, workers compensation, the minimum wage,
and the social safety net…......”
Webster Tarpley
Labor Struggles Have Delivered Economic Progress——-
Not Cartelized “Free Market”
This is exactly what Zinn’s message was…..
there is nothing communist about it,, just fact.
and I would like Natalie to please be specific on just what part of
Zinn’s history book she believes to be a lie.,, or I wonder if she even
read it.
Maria -
Naaaah, Marx was a stupid, smelly little jerk who mistakenly believed that the workers of the world were ripe for revolution and would spontaneously arise to take charge of their own destinies. That has never happened, so elitists have stepped in to promote the worldwide revolution. Had the workers been interested, we would have been much better off with the workers in charge, as workers tend to be practical lot, and you elitists are impractical dingbats who screw up everything you touch: The Social Security System is going to go bankrupt, Medicare is going to go bankrupt, LBJ’s War on Poverty cost $6.6 trillion and made the condition of the poor far worse, and the Democrats’ Unaffordable Housing Project damn near wrecked the world economy. Given the elitists’ perpetual and massive failures, one begins to suspect that the elitists really do want to wreck the world economy. Why? To create equal poverty around the world?
I have no need for protection from Bush and Cheney, as the Constitution recognized that all people have the God-given right to protect themselves.
My text is not from Bush-Cheney, but from the Constitution of the United States of America, which has been serially violated by Marxist infiltrators. Marxists ran openly as socialists and communists during the Great Depression. And lost, badly. So they hijacked the progressive lable, the liberal label, back to the progressive label again, or refer to themselves as leftists or free-thinkers to disguise their rigid destructive ideological thinking.
So, Marxist is a blanket term for all sorts of people who have adopted collectivist thinking and want to disguise their true beliefs.
Enjoy.
“And guess what this liberal would be all about. This liberal will be about socializing … uh, um. ….... Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies”—- Maxine Waters, (M) California
The oil executives responded by saying they’ve seen this before, in Hugo Chavez’s Venezuela.
This is what is boiling just beneath the surface in the minds of far too many supposed “liberals” in DC. They’re not liberals, anything but. In fact the polar opposite of anything resembling liberty.
Oh my God! How annoying you must be in person!
Natalie concerning Zinn being a former communist:
“Communism just hasn’t worked out that well through history. That’s because it’s fundamentally in opposition to any concept of genuine liberty—which of course is the reason people are forever trying to get into this country, and not trying to break out of it.”
All your comments are target rich and naive. What do you mean by genuine liberty? The liberty implemented under the Military Commission’s and Patriot Act? Actually statistics show that immigration into this country has slowed down and some are willingly returning to their native countries. Many Americans, more than most countries, are in prison, they couldn’t break out of this country if they wanted to. How, considering the financial melt-down and Wall Street bail-outs, is dog-eat-dog capitalism for the poor and socialism for the rich working out for you?
If you’re looking for perfection, you’ve come to the wrong place. If you’re interested in the best chance and potential for achieving as close to it as possible, hang around.
Genuine liberty in the context of governing systems means said system offers everyone an equal opportunity to define their lives and pursuits pretty much however he/she wants to, within reasonable bounds of civil, ethical behavior. This of course does not mean that men operating under this system are perfect, but men are men. That’s not the fault of our overall governing system, which is very nearly perfect, it’s the fault of imperfect human beings ignoring its basic tenets.
But if one combines imperfect human beings with an imperfect inherently anti-liberty system such as communism, then you invariably get human misery. Men don’t have equal rights, much less rights period—- to speak, associate, arm themselves, publish, petition and protest. (without fear of death or imprisonment) These are the instruments of genuine liberty, and indeed the instruments by which we regularly and effectively defeat attempts even in this country to deny others their Divine endowments.
But surely you know this stuff. Surely you know that the complaints and problems you point out do not begin to somehow justify an equivalence between a collectivist and an individualist system, in terms of again …. genuine liberty.
But you’re right, at the rate we’re going, many are recognizing that they’re becoming a slave to the federal government, and seeing other actually freer by comparison countries. But that’s not the fault of our system as originally envisioned, it’s the fault of imperfect tramplers upon it. We need to throw overboard those who are drilling holes in the bottom of our luxury cruise liner, patch them, and cruise on. On the other hand, collectivist systems are drifting along on their flimsy log rafts, with no mechanism or potential for fixing or changing the basic design of their vessels.
I appreciate what Howard Zinn did for me, which was to help open my eyes and deprogram myself. As far as war is concerned, the people that truely suffer are the helpless, that is women, children, elderly and diabled, killed off by the millions. It is no different today than it was in 1931-45 (no I did not get the dates wrong). I am reading a book entitled “A Glorius Way To Die” about the sinking of the battleship Yamato. Japan was completely helpless by the spring of 1945. The Empire was litterally running out of fuel. In fact they began to put out feelers for terms I think in June. Of course books have been written about this, pro and con on the issue of the “bombs”.
Unfortunately, war is glorified in this country. We love it, because it has not come our way yet. 9-11 was almost a decade ago, and does not even approach what other countries have experienced, and still experience today. The true cost of a diamond or gold ring, or a gallon of gas produces a 9-11 everyday, somewhere in the world.
Gary
Just to let you know, I wrote an entry on The ITT List blog inspired in part by some of the comments in this discussion: http://www.theittlist.com/site/ittlist/ind/5902/
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