In late April, two teen-age students in Oakland, California, got an unwelcome, real-life lesson in civics. During a heated class discussion at Oakland High School about politics and President Bush, the boys made comments the exact nature of which are in dispute, but which their teacher believed constituted a threat toward the president. The teacher went to the FBI. Secret… return to article
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Reader Comments (74)Page 1 of 1 pageslet’s get this asshole and his cronies out of office
Posted by Kyle Stoner on Sep 20, 2003 at 3:25 AM I think Kyle Stoner said it as well as anyone could.
Posted by Dick Mapes on Sep 20, 2003 at 3:33 AM “Activists are feeling the heat” “It should be sobering” Big deal. The cops in St. Louis provided an opportunity for activists to step up. People that may never have lead, got a chance to stand in for their brothers.
It should be obvious from the activity who is really feeling the heat. It’s the authorities who are trying tolimit our rights. “We got the numbers” and teh only thing we have to fear…
Posted by Mark O on Sep 20, 2003 at 3:43 AM I realize that these issues are serious and disgusting since they reflect what seems to be a modern day witch hunt,...a perfect blend of paranoia and excessive power and control.
However, I had to laugh at the thought of how thick the file on me may be,...with my intellectual curiosity and my big mouth!
Although I object to such a waste of time and taxpayer money, and abhor intimidation tactics against people, I could care less whether they act so stupid as to go around questioning about arbitrary matters.
That kind of behavior does not impress me as being very “intelligent” which is perhaps an indication of precisely how poor the “intelligence” really is *laugh*!
Posted by Just Me on Sep 20, 2003 at 4:31 AM Did anyone out there not know this would happen when John Ashcroft became chief enforcer. I live across the river from St.Louis. Our news is mostly from St. L papers and news media. I am not at all surprised. Good Reporting.
Posted by Rosalie Stern on Sep 20, 2003 at 4:44 AM Did anyone out there not know this would happen when John Ashcroft became chief enforcer. I live across the river from St.Louis. Our news is mostly from St. L papers and news media. I am not at all surprised. Good Reporting.
Posted by Rosalie Stern on Sep 20, 2003 at 4:44 AM It seems to me that Ashcroth is useing Nazi tactics.
Posted by Marta Kaye on Sep 20, 2003 at 5:35 AM Good reporting. Many people do not believe that our civil liberties are being violated. Just the terrorists and they don’t deserve any rights or so they so. There has to be more civil disobedience especially regarding Pat Act 2..Citizens of this country can have their citizenship stripped for first amendment based activities..Scary huh?
Posted by Lil me on Sep 20, 2003 at 5:44 AM What we’ve seen in the last 3 years is nothing less than a coup of the American political system. Everyone who believes in what this country was built on should afraid of what Bush, Prime Minister Cheney and all the other neo-cons are doing to it. Yet, nothing is scarier that what is happening at the So-Called Justice Department. Since the main stream media isn’t really reporting what is going on it up to people, Republicans, Democrats, Green Party...everyone to take back their country by staying informed, being unafraid to speak and by voting the crooks right out of office.
Posted by Nathan on Sep 20, 2003 at 6:00 AM MarkO and Just me have a good point. John Asscrack and company would not be wasting all this time and money$ on us if WE werent so scary to THEM. FEAR NOT We must be doing something right. Lots of people react to fear by lashing out at everyone around them. The goal of the bully is to make everyone so afraid that they dont ask questions, therefore, without questions we’d never know how scared and weak the bully actually is. Bu$h looks like a scared, pathetic child who realizes that at any moment he’ll be exposed and the game will be over. Look into his eyes, it looks like he’s gonna break out in tears at any moment. The point I’m trying to make is that they’re not as strong and powerful as they look. “were gonna smoke em out of thier hole and get them running” Isnt that what Bu$h said??
Posted by Shawn P Murphy on Sep 20, 2003 at 10:38 AM This is but the beginning of what may be the worst of times.
Posted by Lito on Sep 20, 2003 at 12:00 PM We need a leader to clean this mess up.
This is a job for The General!
Vote for General Wesley Clark!
http://www.draftwesleyclark.com/
He’s promise to make Bu$h accountable!!!
That will be a Great Day!
Posted by Vote4Clark on Sep 20, 2003 at 12:03 PM Rosalie Sterns, I used to live in Alton and when I heard about Asshead, I mean Ashcroft, I couldn’t believe it. People I know who used to work in the Missouri capital say he’s incredibly biased and will stop at nothing to change the constitution to fit his means.
Posted by neil on Sep 20, 2003 at 1:42 PM i can see the homeland sucurity
but rouseing kids at a school because of somthing they sead is a little to much. what the fbi should do when they hear of any talk is stay out of sight and not be noticed.. and continue with there survailence. like there suposed to do. by coming out in the open and qusetioning peeople by what they read or say. thats wrong. i dont know what id do if they came to me because for example if i say somthing like.. im going to jihad on thees weeds in the back yard..
i would be pretty mad about it.
from this story i just read how ever true or not i dont know.. i wonder if thees methods are known to the president. i dont think he know what there doing all the time. harassment and rouseing is a crime. and the fbi is not exempt from this
Posted by kerry on Sep 20, 2003 at 9:56 PM Fuck the FBI. They have no right to question students without parent’s consent and without a lawyer. The FBI are some of biggest lawbreakers in the fucking land. The are the enemy of all US citizens. Fuck them all to hell.
Posted by Don Thompson on Sep 20, 2003 at 11:14 PM First of all I was dumb enough to vote for Bush. At the time I saw it as a lesser of two evils. We would have been better off with Gore. Bush, the CIA, were responsible for 911. As well as the Al Queda terrorists that were trained at the airforce base in Florida. This whole Patriot/Victory act is bullshit. They created the crisis and are telling us that our rights need to be taken away in order to protcet us. Bullshit. The Federal Government needs to be downsized bigtime. The States were suppose to limit their power and now it is the other way around. WAKE UP AMERICA
Posted by Tom Lowe on Sep 21, 2003 at 12:17 AM This is creepy. Does anyone else find it odd that “men in black” aren’t checking out right wing extremists ( the types who threaten “liberals” and pepper their answering machines and emails with death threats or send anthrax to the so called liberal media and Democrats). Seems like Oklahoma City shoulda made us realize we’re in much more danger from the extreme right . Remember how they tried to blame that on Arabic terrorists?
Posted by Sue on Sep 21, 2003 at 12:35 AM Hi Tom Lowe,
if you¥re put out about having voted for Bush you can console yourself with the fact that Gore would be pursuing the same policies but would be able to mask them to some with his proficiency in the language of liberalism, and that given he is a cousin of the Bush family (check out the Burke¥s Peerage) you never had much of a choice in the first place.
Posted by Owen on Sep 21, 2003 at 12:59 AM but this thing dont maake no sense
there are our boys in iraq right now dieing every day. to fight terrorist and protect our way of life.. i wonder if they would continue if they know what there protecting now.. school hids questiond without parrent contact or a attorney.. one thing i know and those that know me know to. if they do that to me ill end up in jail for kicking them out of my house
Posted by kerry on Sep 21, 2003 at 2:38 AM These law-enforcement puppets of the corporate-fascist state, (whose very existence is paid for by we the taxpayers), would be hard pressed to explain their own behavior if, as servants of the PEOPLE, it were their lives that were placed under microscopes and broacast on a minute by minute basis to all available public media venues. I’d really like to see just how moral, patriotic, altruistic, full of integrity, boy-scout-like in manners and action they all were. I’d really like to see their bosses with even greater relish under the microscopes they’re slowly but surely placing the ordinary citizen under. Gee, I wonder just how clean, wholesome, worshipful, heroic, incorruptible, generous, straight-laced, and law-abiding those gods in the flesh are behind closed doors, don’t any of you? But we know that’ll never happen for one reason: Those who have the most to hide are ALWAYS the first to do the stone-throwing and peep-showing. And do you know why? That’s easy if you think about it...If you’re the one pretending to take the high road first and claiming you’re the squeaky clean one...it really means you want to divert attention away from your own lurid, sordid, perverse, psychotic, criminal, corrupt and abusive private life before somebody finds out about it.
Posted by Dom Mastroserio on Sep 21, 2003 at 5:10 AM After Bush “won” the election I wasn’t sure that I could have LESS respect for him...but as time goes on, I find myself being EVEN more disappointed in him than before. I’m beginning to question his humanity. I think he is a cyborg. A really dumb cyborg that looks like a monkey.
Posted by Leiley on Sep 21, 2003 at 9:27 AM i ben thinking.. in this story its sead...every ones a target.. the story on this page.. the person who puts this web site hear.. show me a valid news link to the story on this page.. american news link that is. cnn..cbs..msnbc..ect
my forst impression was..how dare they.. but asallways my good sense sinks in after the inital shock wears off. i just dont beleeve the story on this page. show me a valid link to this story and ill consider it.. other wise for all i know this site may be un american. that is.. agenst the usa
so..show me you got my email
Posted by kerry on Sep 21, 2003 at 10:20 AM kerry, you poor, poor dilluded sole. have they tought you nothing about history at stamford?
Posted by expat american on Sep 21, 2003 at 2:48 PM Kerry, you’re an independent thinker (and speller) and you’ve nailed it. This story is a piece of propaganda cleverly disguised as journalism.
The introduction hooks you with a compelling and quite possibly true story. Only problem is that it has no real connection to the patriot act. A teacher CALLED the authorities to report a possible threat against the POTUS. The response was the same as it would have been before the patriot act was even conceived of. Agents were sent to investigate. What else would anyone expect to happen? Of course they use aggressive interviewing techniques. That is S.O.P. The boys apparently were not arrested or taken away to rot in jail without anyone ever hearing from them again, or Iím sure that would have been mentioned by our intrepid reporter.
http://www.sfbayview.com/050703/homelandsecurity050703.shtml
This hysteria about the patriot act is almost too ridiculous to take seriously. In fact, I don’t. It’s growing more and more obvious to be just another political drum for the left (and some on the right) to beat.
“The last thing we should be doing is turning over our privacy, our liberties, our freedom, our constitutional rights to John Ashcroft,” John Edwards said on 9/9/03. “The notion that they are going to libraries to find out what books people are checking out, going to book stores to find out what books are being purchased...runs contrary to everything we believe in this country.”
When Edwards made this statement, he was well aware, as was recently revealed, that the Justice Department had used the patriot act to obtain someoneís library records exactly zero times. (BTW, a court order is still required)
Let’s see how consistent you all are after congress is intimidated into repealing the patriot act, and terrorists finally succeed in another attack here in the USA. Will you be saying: ìwell, that’s unfortunate, but at least my library history didn’t come out.î Or will you say as I predict: “That incompetent Bush administration failed to connect the dots and we were not kept safe.î
Posted by Valerie Onstott on Sep 21, 2003 at 4:04 PM i think that it IS feasible to take precautions for terrorists activities - BUT - this joke of a “ president “ and his hoods ( ashcroft being the most dangerous in my eyes ) are abusing their might to invade your citizens privacy! for the FBI to scare schoolgoing young people is an absolute horrifying idea!
Posted by Ruth Eickhoff on Sep 21, 2003 at 4:16 PM I agree with you Ruth.
FYI, expat: Kerry is from StaMford, Connecticut...NOT StaNford Univ.
There is a difference.
I’m gratified to see that Bu$h voters are waking up. ;o)
Posted by amolibri on Sep 21, 2003 at 10:54 PM still waiting for a valid news link to this story whoever you are
i gave you 2 days.. no excuses
im thinking of reporting this site as a bogis news site .
Posted by kerry on Sep 22, 2003 at 12:21 AM Readers want to look at FBI agents as a tax payer funded death squad.If American taxpayers are funding and training death squads in other countries at the school of americas who do think are the death squads in the usa? The national association of hairdressers?
I have attempted to deal with this issue by organizing an annual conference in new england that looks at crimes committed by FBI agents.This is our 14th year.
Here are some suggested reading materials from past speakers:
BREAK INS DEATH THREATS AND THE FBI by Ross Gelbspan, pulitzer winner;
EYES TO MY SOUL by Tyronne Powers, a former FBI agent;
BLACK MASS by Gerard Oneil;
DEADLY ALLIANCE by Ralph Ranalli;
FBI SECRETS by former agent Wesley Swearingen;
TAINTING EVIDENCE by John Kelly;
Mafia Kingfish by John Davis.
As long as Americans buy into the model of hiring bodyguards to protect them(law enforcement)they will lose the ability to protect themselves. see www.copvcia.com www.okcbombing.org www.unansweredquestions.org to develop information about FBI agents involvement in 9-11.
from a never writer to ever readers, newes. joeb
Posted by joeb on Sep 22, 2003 at 1:48 AM Valerie, this website/magazine has been on the mark more times than I can count. I remember when they broke the story on the Reagan-era arms-for-hostages trade in the 80’s a full couple of years before the main press picked it up. My colleagues at work told me then I shouldn’t be reading that “liberal trash.” That Barbara Ehrenreich article turned out the be correct.
I personally don’t think that being seen reading the magazine-website will result in my being sent to Guantanamo, but the fact is the hysterical climate in America is causing people to overreact. I’m not afraid of terrorists or the current administration, but the tools are in place for a very quick slide towards fascism. It’s best to keep your eyes open and keep questioning authority.
I’d recommend a book written in the 1930’s by Sebastian Haffner called Defying Hitler. It shows that the road leading to the Third Reich was in place long before Hitler came to power, and the road looks familiar. I still don’t think it could happen in America, but we shouldn’t even let it get close.
This magazine plays on fears sometimes, but then again, so does this Administration. I trust this magazine more than I trust White House press releases. I wish it weren’t so.
Posted by Montie on Sep 22, 2003 at 2:37 AM OVERTHROW THE BUSH REGIME!!
* * VOTE * * in 2004 !
Posted by Take action in 2004 on Sep 22, 2003 at 2:38 AM Oops, sorry. That was Barbara Honegger, not Ehrenreich, that broke the October Surprise story.
Posted by Montie on Sep 22, 2003 at 2:42 AM Sheep let things happen. Never underestimate the base instincts of the masses. They will enable and follow abject stupidity and greed for perceived protection.
We have the fundamentalist form of Capitalism in charge of the state. Unprecedented wealth and power. It will not be kind to perceived threats.
8 years of this group will be nothing short of catastrophic for this democracy and the world. The fear many of us feel towards our government is palpable, real and very justified.
Posted by NF on Sep 22, 2003 at 2:45 AM I don’t have much faith in ACLU documentation these days. they tend to be ultra selective the majority of their 1st Amendment “violations”, of late. I don’t mind leaning toward the left. if it is necessary, but some of their cases have been a little too far left over the past few years. Ie; “One nation, under God” - does that ring a bell?
Posted by Don on Sep 22, 2003 at 5:08 AM oh sure..right.. now i get links to every thing else but this story on this page.. so they use other links to advocate this story… i dont knoiw why im still hear...wheres the door
Posted by kerry on Sep 22, 2003 at 7:00 AM You and me both, Kerry. I’ve grown very suspicious of these kinds of articles. I did see the story in the sanfrancisco bayview which I linked above, but nothing else after numerous searches. We all remember Jayson Blair from the times and there’s numerous other examples of journalists making stuff up to fit an agenda or please their editors. They always hide behind “can’t reveal my sources.”
Just look at the comments that the article engendered. It was like throwing red meat to the lions. The left loves to call people who support the president “goose steppers” and “sheep”, but I see very little critical thinking from the comments here, just blind agreement and unquestioning belief.
Monti, I’m new to “In These Times” and I’m curious. What did they have to say about the numerous Clinton scandals? What did they have to say about the sale of missile technology to China? I know its a left wing publication and thats fine, but I would be gratified to learn that they are not beyond criticizing someone on the left side of the spectrum. That would make them much more believable.
Posted by Valerie Onstott on Sep 22, 2003 at 8:26 AM Ummmm,....kerry and valerie,...got news for you,...this is the original link to an original story. If you are seeking evidence either way,...get a life and seek it out,...kinda like the rest of us.
I am sorry. I do not mean to be demeaning and am just reacting to the same old “assasination-type” crap that I am so, so sick of. No one has the copyright, patent or trademark on “the truth”!!! We have to search for all the facts and evaluate what is truthful for ourselves. HELLO!!!
Look,...what is important to all of us is that we are joining together to at least talk and question and seek. To me, this is the most fabulous example of human potential because these tumultuous times have brought us all out (of our proverbial closets) to talk about our perspectives of our nation and world.
Push the truth, I say,...push it all the way. We all deserve it.
Posted by Just Me on Sep 22, 2003 at 8:58 AM P.S. Valerie,...if you are looking for link that is party partial (as opposed to being free thinking beyond politics),...you visited the wrong site. We are neither defined by and certainly not divided by party politics,...the lowest form of human potential.
BE PATRIOTIC - - THINK!!!!!
Posted by Just Me on Sep 22, 2003 at 9:05 AM This post (riposte?) is for Valerie. I’ve worked as a factchecker at In These Times for over a year and a half, and, for what it’s worth coming from such a biased perspective, I can assure you that our standards are far stricter than, say, the New York Times. The main reason for this is that we publish only two issues per month and this allows us to thoroughly check every fact in each story before publication, an impossibility for any daily, which are already struggling against mind-boggling time constraints. Does this mean we’re perfect? Of course not. We’re human. But never once in my time here have we allowed a writer to tell us that he or she “can’t reveal their sources.” Fact-checking is something we take very seriously here, and we are professional to the point of anality about it.
Regarding Clinton’s scandals...we ran a cover story that excerpted Christopher Hitchens’ “No One Left To Lie To.” If you’ve read that book, you know that no criticism from the right was ever more piercing or scathing (or in my personal opinion, accurate). That is one example. On this site, you could check out Dean Baker’s “Bursting Bubbles,” in which he bucks the conventional wisdom that the faltering economy is solely Bush’s fault and shows how much of the blame lies with Clinton, for another example. There have been, and will continue to be, many more.
If you decide to keep reading In These Times, I think you’ll find that you are not being beaten over the head by a single, monolithic perspective, but rather engaged in an open forum of free thought, radical debate and always-needed dissent.
Posted by Brian Cook on Sep 22, 2003 at 1:49 PM Over 3 billion people in the world make less than $2/day.
Around 45 million americans don’t have health insurance
15 percent of american children live below poverty level.
The top 400 richest americans own about 1 trillion in net worth. That’s a million times a million! Or about the equivalent of 1/10 of our annual GDP! That’s a hell of a lot of power.
There are over 750 US military bases throughout the world. As our attempt at global domination accelerates, military force is needed to suppress dissent… I’m sorry, support peace, as PNAC would spin what’s occurring throughout the world.
As democratic ‘free trade’ expands, the global standard of living has dropped drastically for the majority of the people of the world. Real democracy is being undermined.
Unregulated capitalism breeds corporate fascism - ie exploitation of labor and resources at all costs to make as much profit as possible. Worker’s rights are non-existent, as well as voiced opposition.
If you voice political dissent, you are now branded ‘unpatriotic’ or much worse. But as I look at what’s happening to this country, I can definitely say Patriotic is NOT:
* screwing the public by ‘cooking the books’
* outsourcing as much as you can OUT of America
* driving companies into the ground and liquidating shareholders
* acquiring millions from their liquidation deals
* making over 1000x the salary of the lowest paid worker for a high end CEO
* acceleration and exploitation of national debt, to further deregulate and further monopolize corporate interests
* exploitation of work resources, which increases poverty
* tax cuts for a select few (percentage wise)
* privatization of essential Governement services which won’t allow parallel Government safety net programs, because they wan’t monopolistic interest
* NOT going to jail and paying back what was stolen for any of the aboveWhy isn’t the FBI and other anti-terrorist organizations investigating these multi-national conglomerates that are destroying this country?
Posted by John dobson on Sep 22, 2003 at 7:16 PM what is happening in this country scares me to death… no, not the “threats on our freedom” I just can’t see how the so-called “patriot” acts of snooping around someones library records or possibly even tapping a phone line can be considered patriotic (good marketing scheme?). We are being conditioned to accept the fed. govt’s increasing control over us and the loss of our own civil liberties. Yikes!!!!!! I will keep informed and spread the word as far as I can.
JUST ME.. very well said
Posted by Joanice on Sep 22, 2003 at 10:07 PM as far as the patriot act not being used to get information from bookstores and libraries, ‘the tattered covered book store’ and the boulder public libarary might not agree with you. the denver post reported thier troubles in great detail......fact, scary fact.
Posted by mark mcdowell on Sep 23, 2003 at 12:25 AM At various times Benjamin Franklin, George Washington and Abraham Lincoln were all called traitors. Since history has shown that the only difference between a traitor and a hero is whether one wins or loses, many people in the reform movement should take note of this very important lesson!
So. . . After witnessing the spectacle of anthrax attacks right before the PATRIOT vote that bore an eerie resemblance to the German Reichstag, can any educated citizen be blamed for taking the assurances of John Ashcroft with a grain of salt. . . However: When there are hundreds of billions [really, trillions of dollars at stake in the US economy] is it really unreasonable to question the motivations of these people? That’s just the way of the world - nothing strange about it, and those who reject such conjecture out of hand simply need to read more history.
Joseph Goebbels said in his 18 August 1933 speech Radio As The Eighth Great Power, “A government that has determined to bring a nation together so that is is once more a center of power in the scales of great world events has not only the right, but the duty, to subordinate all aspects of the nation to its goals, or at least ensure that they are supportive. “
Patriotic, thoughtful Americans of all creeds need to come together without reservation to change the nation that we are leaving to our children. The right to worship, free speech and protection from unreasonable search and siezure - to say nothing of the right to breathe clean air and drink clean water - will not be there for our children if we follow this story to it’s conclusion under the current administration. Too many REAL patriots have died for these freedoms to let them slip away now, but for those who need a more stark reminder of what is at stake: The result of failure in this battle is imprisonment and death for us, slavery and misery for our children. Ben Franklin and George Washington were the victors, not because they commanded superior resources or firepower but because of superior ideals, effort and the undeniable incentive of what what happen to them if they failed. Today we stand at a similar crossroads with what I believe are comparable consequences for future generations. If we succeed we will have changed the future for our children and made this country free again for ourselves. . . This is the unique opportunity that none would seek and yet all must rise to if we are to stay a free people for years to come.
Posted by Ed Mellon on Sep 23, 2003 at 4:55 AM EVERY ONE WAKE UP
THE ONLY BACK GROUND THIS SITE HASS IS THE DESKTOP ON THE COMPUTER IT WAS CREATED ON. THERES ONLY HALF TRUTHS IN THIS SITE. THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU READ. USE YOUR HEAD. LOOK FOR VAlID PROOF OF WHAT YOU SEE. WHERE ARE THE NEWS LINKS TO A SPICIFIC STORY. DONT GO FOR LINKS THAT ADVOCATE A STORY THAT HASS NO DIRECT LINK TO IT.. WHEN IT SHOULD HAVE. THIS SITE IS GARBAGE
Posted by kerry on Sep 23, 2003 at 9:26 AM Kerry, for the last time, this is an ORIGINAL story. You won’t find that it was copied from CNN or ABC or whoever you believe holds monopoly power over journalistic integrity because it was created by a person called KRISTIE REILLY on 19 Sep 2003.
This a COMMENT on current events.
You are entitled (indeed encouraged) to be skeptical, but for heavens sake come up with some evidence of YOUR OWN to support your arguments. Bald assertions may be the norm in corporate media or white house press-releases, but around here they just don’t cut the mustard.
At the risk of sounding patronizing, YOU ARE EMBARRASSING YOURSELF, and if you still think there has to be a link from this story to the “real story” for this article to be worth reading, then all I can do is put my head in my hands and suggest you grow another brain cell.
Posted by Matt Quinn on Sep 23, 2003 at 11:04 AM George II is more of a threat to the country than all those his pitbull Asscroft is chasing after. What this country needs is a bit of anarchy. That will shake the basturds up.
(No, those aren’t mispellings!)
Posted by jo baldwin on Sep 24, 2003 at 12:44 AM I am a woman of 65,old enough to remember the bombing in england when I was a child and the horrors every morning when we left the shelter,that was ww2 a war in which I lost 15 relatives.That war was fought to end just the sort of policys that are just starting to happen here.I truly believe that 9/11 was allowed to happen by this administration,they had enough intelligence to know something big was about to happen and did nothing. It gave them the excuse they had probably been praying for and fitted in very nicely with thier plans.I frankly am very frightened about what is going on here now.I am not a young woman, I love this country and admire Americans more than I can say,I have been somewhat puzzled by the administrations htey have chosen over the years but,when it got really bad the ordinary americans always prevailed and the constitution always ptotected them . I fear the contitution is now in tatters and with our voting machines being open to compromise the voices of the true patriots,ordinary Americans will nerver be heard. I have never written an e.mail before about how I feel, but somehow or anther these people have got to give America back to the people who have worked and died for for so many years.
Posted by janet on Sep 24, 2003 at 11:49 AM For “kerry”, Stamford CT, who seems concerned that this matter was not reported on the network news stations or on “cnn” etc.
Here is the original link to the story as it appeared in the Los Angeles Time newspaper:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-booted13may13,1,4536861.storywhich may no longer be available, so here is a link to a site that contains a reprint of the LA Time article in full:
http://lists.envirolink.org/pipermail/dti-discuss/2003q2/000005.htmlAnd here is a link to a site which reprints the article as it appeared in the Oakland Tribune newspaper:
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/05/1607366.phpResearch is an equal-opportunity informational activity.
Posted by new reader on Sep 24, 2003 at 4:35 PM Valerie, It is the lack of critical thinking skills that Bush depends of for support of his policies. No one should depend on only one source of information, but read and listen to many, including international. The Bush administration uses bullying and scare tactics to gain support for the Patriot Act. Those that claim they haven’t lost any civil rights would NOT know if they are being watched because of all the secrecy.
An open democratic government should not be based on secrecy and scare tactics.
Posted by cheryl on Sep 25, 2003 at 9:36 AM What really (excuse my tongue) pisses me off is that, while this administration has garnered so much power to “watch” us,...we are merely scraping the surface of their misgivings. Everyone is discovering that Cheney holds approximately 433,000 shares in Halliburton (that corporation which is making BILLIONS from the war in Iraq). He says he has no financial interest,...ha, ha,...being so stupid as to believe he can fool our people.
But, just imagine if we, the American people, discovered that the key members of this administration own shares in those other corporations (especially the ones that manufacture weapons of mass destruction and engage in the energy and banking industies) that are also making a damned fortune off of our soldier’s lives, our jobs and our tax dollars!!!
That would be pretty sick business using the American people like that,...huh!!! Yup,...these are evil people.
Posted by Ms. Monica on Sep 25, 2003 at 8:04 PM When you say assasination crap, Just Me, I assume youíre talking about supporters as well as detractors of this article. I called the article propaganda and by association the author a propagandist, but that is simply defined as someone advancing an agenda. Maybe not flattering, but hardly an assassination. Some examples on the supporterís side:
>George II is more of a threat to the country than all those his pitbull AsscrofÖÖ..
>let’s get this asshole and his cronies out of office
>It seems to me that Ashcroth is useing Nazi tactics.
>Rosalie Sterns, I used to live in Alton and when I heard about AssheadÖÖ.
> Yup,...these are evil people.
You talk of pushing the truth and thinking. The truth is that John Ashcroft is one of the nicest, most gracious gentlemen youíll ever find, especially in politics.
As Governor, he signed his state’s first hate-crimes law in 1988.
He convened the first congressional hearing on racial profiling, and supported a bill to mandate a nationwide analysis of race and ethnicity in police stops.
‘’Using race broadly as a profiler ... is, I believe, unconstitutional,’’ he said; what makes it especially pernicious is ‘’the extraordinarily destructive effect that it has on the people’s confidence in government.’’
When his opponent in the 2000 senate race died in a plane crash, he stopped campaigning even though the race was very close.
When he narrowly lost to a dead man, he graciously conceded to his widow when he could easily have challenged the outcome based on allegations of voter fraud and the legality of the widows candidacy.
http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/94/58/01_95_m.html
Hardly the profile of someone who wants to ìtrampleî peopleís civil rights. Does that even make sense? Wouldnít a more plausible explanation be that heís just trying to do his job and knows that we canít expect law enforcement to prevent future catastrophic attacks without giving them the tools necessary to gather intelligence?
The truth is that civil liberties have historically suffered much more under democratic administrations than republican, and the latter has fought far more effectively to advance them, despite revisions to history.
Next page-------
Posted by Valerie Onstott on Sep 28, 2003 at 2:32 AM Continued-------
*Woodrow Wilsonís A/G used the Espionage Act of 1917 and the Sedition Act of 1918 to find dissenters he believed were fomenting a Bolshevik-driven anarchy.
*FDRís A/G ordered the internment of 112,000 Japanese Americans. Many lost their property and positions in life. A military curfew zone 40 miles wide up the Pacific was established.
*The republican party was formed primarily to abolish slavery. The democratic party viciously opposed them. The KKK was the terrorist arm of the democratic party, and they have yet to apologize for it.
*Republican congressmen voted in far higher percentages than democrats did for civil rights legislation in the 1860ís and the 1960ís. Most democrats vehemently opposed it. Richard Nixon signed legislation that put teeth into affirmative action.
So Just Me, party politics can be quite important, especially if youíre a slave or you donít have the right to vote or you canít use the one public toilet that works.
As for thinking, I thought it disingenuous to introduce the story with an incident that has tenuous ties to the Patriot Act.
And I think itís unwise to put so much stock in the ACLU. This is an organization that whines about the rights of prisoners in Gitmo, but seems oblivious to the civil right of the average citizen to live without the fear of terrorism.
They eagerly defend the man-boy love associationís right to advocate for behaviour that destroys the lives of young boys. Yet they have no time for any Christian anywhere when their constitutional religious rights are being violated.
In short the ACLU rushes to defend perverts, criminals, and terrorists, but has no concept of the civil rights of the vast majority not to have to put up with them. I have zero respect for them and put no stock in any selective documents they choose to share.
Ms. Reillyís facts may in fact be technically correct, and Iím sorry Mr. Cook if I wrongly implied otherwise. But the foundation those facts are predicated on is not very solid or trustworthy, IMHO. The patriot act no doubt could use some revision as does most legislation, but to falsely make Ashcroft out to be some kind of demon serves no purpose other than to divide people and score partisan points.
Skepticism is of course good; that is what Iím expressing here. I just wish the motivations of anyone to the right of center were not automatically assumed to be some kind of plot. To do exactly what, Iím not sure.
Posted by Valerie Onstott on Sep 28, 2003 at 2:35 AM “Who needs the United Nations. If they ain’t with us, they’re agin’ us so we’ll go it alone with the Brits. Sadaam must be expunged because he has weapons of mass destruction and if we don’t pre-emptively and aggressively wage war against the people of Iraq, our lives are in danger. The world will be a safer place without him. Besides, it’ll only take us about nintey days- the oil resources will pay the war’s costs . Yes, and, although you have to just take our word for it, (we’re unwilling to reveal any substantiative evidence for it)-we have to curtail your liberties to fight those terrorists WE decide are your enemies. Also, your kids must be sacrificed to liberate Iraq and set up a democracy there. May 1, 2003: I, the President of the United States am landing on this awsome aircraft carrier dressed in a pilot’s uniform, (which I hardly donned when I was in the reserves, sort of), to lie that the war in Iraq is over and we’ve won with honor, dignity, and predictable speed-I told you we would. Now the world is safer because those Iraquis are humiliated, crushed, and brutally bombed into submission and won’t dare resent us or feel hostile enough to seek retribution. It’s a safer world now and-by the way, more GIs have been killed and wounded since I made this announcement than did before I opened my braggart mouth-we’ll have to send more. Oh, and all that oil over there won’t cover the costs of the war so I’m demanding another 90 billion dollars ‘cause that might help-because the corporations to whom I promised our troops’ protection don’t feel safe yet. By the way, we gotta keep extending the definition of our meaning of the word, “terrorist”, to include petty criminals and drug dealers. We have to keep harassing you ordinary citizens- who knows which one of you is really a crypto-terrorist? Oh yes, and before I forget, I also want to increase the funding of those intelligence agencies and military protection that failed us completely on 9/11/01...I think they might have failed us not because they’re incompetent-40 billion plus annualy just isn’t enough to help them combat terror. But now I also want the United Nations to help us out in Iraq-I really didn’t mean it when I told them they’re useless. Belief: an irrational espousal of baseless, unsubstantiated ideas or persons despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Posted by Dom Mastroserio on Sep 28, 2003 at 9:30 AM Valerie, what are you taking about, quoting me for your one-sided argument? My brother-in-law and sister used to work in the capital and know this man. And my bro-in-law is a Republican.
If you would READ the rest of the articles on this magazine, and read other supporting articles, you might find links to support some of what we’re saying instead of blindly going against this. And to follow party lines and accuse of us the same just weakens your argument.
Now, if I wanted to point out supporters on your side, I could use the well-educated Kerry from Stamford. What’s she majoring in, English?
You want to subscribe to George W.’s America where old white men are in charge, women are kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen and minorities are making our slushies, then go ahead. I’ll continue to be an activist to stop these people. I have nothing against your point of view, but can’t understand after all the progress this nation has made how people can’t see the decline before their eyes.
Posted by neil on Sep 30, 2003 at 3:53 AM Valerie,...are you and Kerry from Stamford sleeping together? Just kidding *laugh*. Personally, if I believe there are representatives who are doing things which are damaging to our country, I could care less whether they were Democrat, Republican, Green, Blue, Purple or whatever. As a member of a “democracy”, where the ultimate rule is in the hands of “the people”, I feel it is my duty to oppose any politician who does not appear to be serving the best interests of “the people”.
Posted by Ms. Monica on Sep 30, 2003 at 9:35 AM Why am I not surprised? News-flash! This country has never been a democracy but a republic much along the lines of ancient Rome. How can you establish a demcracy when the first president and many other members of the fledging govt own slaves? Oxymoron!
Posted by dolly on Nov 2, 2003 at 2:21 PM Wow, dolly,...you are one of the few people I’ve seen who recognizes that our nation actually operates as a republic or,...maybe a corporate oligarchy,...or perhaps a plutocracy,...something like that or a combination of all the above. However, no matter how our nation actually operates does not diminish my capacity to act as a member of democracy, now, does it.
Posted by Ms. Monica on Nov 2, 2003 at 4:01 PM I sure hope Hell is not full so their will plenty of room for Bu$h and the “Crazies” (as the C.I.A. calls the cartel) when they die.
Posted by Billy Martin on Jan 9, 2004 at 2:28 PM america is becoming something like orwell’s 1984. i mean, grilling high school kids without parental consent because of something they said which wasn’t even serious?? who do these assholes think they are?
and it’s scary to think all this has happened since ‘the emperor’ came to power in 2000.
Posted by ophelia on Jan 9, 2004 at 3:01 PM Please have more stories about US government 1st ammendment invasions of citizen privacy in direct violation of the full text of the constitution. I hope your articles will help prevent what seems to me to be an imminent threat of dictatorship by Bush et al. Please visit www.impeachcentral.com to learn how to get this bastard out of office before it’s too late.
Posted by Frank Snapp on Feb 1, 2004 at 2:08 PM Gosh, I hope I don’t spoil how important you all think this is, but the governement kept files on us in the 40’s 50’s and 60’s too.
We were proud that the government wanted to keep track of us and what we said.
As Arlo Guthrie sang ‘somewhere in Washington there is a study in black and white’ (That means fingerprints - they got mine too and by the 80’s they were videotaping us)
It’s been 40 years and the government hasn’t taken either of us yet.
Posted by Nus on Feb 10, 2004 at 4:07 PM im so suspicious of the neocons, taht I suspect they are monitoring this website to see who writes on here… then when they implement martial law, they will know where to look for all the malcontents, like myself, and just round em up aand put em in jail
Posted by MENOTDUMB on Feb 12, 2004 at 4:14 PM I liked this report/story.
I’m on many liberal email newsgroups but I like your style of reporting. You guys are skilled in quick backgrounding. Keep it up!
However, being older (73), I couldnt remember the wording of the 1st Amendment.
Thanks,
John Denton
Posted by John on Mar 18, 2004 at 9:32 PM I AGREE KYLE,RIGHT ON!!! THE ENEMY WITHEN,THIS R.I.C.O. OF HEARTLESS MASS MURDERS, THEIVING LIARS, AND SUBVERSIVES. MUST GO IN NOV.. OUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS ARE BEING DESTROYED!!! THE BRILLIANT GROUP OF MEN AND WOMEN, OUR BLESSED FOUNDING FATHERS, ARE SPINNING IN THEIR GRAVES!!! GOD BLESS US ALL WHO GIVE A DAMN!!! LET’S ALL GET OUT THERE AND VOTE!!!
Posted by RUSTY TWO CROWS on Mar 23, 2004 at 7:32 PM I’m sharing these because I’m working on an essay:
“Asylum from the U.S.” Let me know what you think!Here is an opener:
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/IraqPressRelease4_22_04.pdf
(from the PIPA website: The Program on International Policy Attitudes carries out research on public opinion on foreign policy and international issues by conducting nationwide polls, focus groups and comprehensive reviews of polling conducted by other organizations.)
http://www.pipa.org/Now for the Heavy stuff
http://www.counterpunch.org/valentine0621.html
http://www.wethepeople.la/ciadrugs.htm
http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/3/2004/853
http://www.csun.edu/~hfspc002/news/cia.drug.html
http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/3/2004/873
http://www.voxfux.com/features/cia_bush_drug_trafficking_murder_pt1.html
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/09_18_01_bushbin.html
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ciadrugs/bush-cheney-drugs.html
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ciadrugs/ssci.html
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/index.html (this link has a job offer for cartoonists)
and for the assassination theories on a couple of individuals:
http://www.onlinejournal.com/evoting/031904Fitrakis/031904fitrakis.html
(athan gibbs)and for david kelly:
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/25/kelly.timeline/http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/07/iraq-030722-rfe el-154548.htm
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/101403_kelly_1.html
Paul Wellstone anyone?
Maybe the links and sites are like bait to attract targets of oppression by our current government/regime.
Be careful!-me
Posted by douglas fir on Apr 23, 2004 at 12:19 PM 1984 is here!!! Why isn’t their an outcry from the public and congress?.
Posted by jrg on Apr 27, 2004 at 7:17 AM My brother and i had a similar experience with the Secret Service in Seattle about 2 weeks after ‘the event’. They came to arrest his lodger because he had made some nasty comments about Bush in front of an ex-marine. The man reported it to police prompting a full scale operation by at least 6 personnel.
Somewhat comical
Posted by Hans Heiss on Apr 27, 2004 at 11:30 AM Post 9/11
I suppose that wasn’t much of a comment.
What i meant to convey was my amazement at the paranoia of public order instutions, while at the same time they keep on working in the same inept, sloppy ways they have always done.
I came into Seattle via Vancouver. Usually one gets scrutinized and scowled at by about 3 people at border entry ponts. This time it was at least 10. There didn’t seem to be any change in the quality of scrutiny only there was more of it and it was more prolonged. As if they thought i was going to break down and admit “yes, i
am Bin, arrest me already!”.
What made it all the more ludicrous was the fact that my suitcase went on a plane i wasn’t actually on because i was talking to an Ohio potato farmer at the bar. And missed the plane, as i often do.
At the other end ‘found the suitcase, came on a different plane’.
Guy says: “Ah....this often happens”.
Alwright already. 9/11 and the whole sheebang and everything stays the same?
And then, to top it all off, when i got to Sydney, Australia, because there was this huge crowd at the arrivals counters i took a passageway which i thought led to more counters and ‘bingo’ i found myself in the open air. Literally.
No passport, no duty free, no prohibited imports, no salami, hashish or any other check.
Thought about going back to go through the proper channels but felt foolish.
Sorry, i had to tell someone.
Yours is a great magazine, you have some excellent writers. Especially Ms.Roy. Wicked sense of humour.
Good luck
Posted by Hans Heiss on Apr 27, 2004 at 12:49 PM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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