Jim, when I pointed out what happened at the bunker it was not to imply that it was civilian. What I was referring to was you calling it “the most restrained war in history”. How many bunker-buster missles does it take to knock out one bunker? You want to talk about civilians, how about the mass graves found in Afghanistan? Or how about the looters being shot? And if you want to talk about firebombing the whole city, have you seen the pictures of Baghdad? It’s in little pieces. If those journalists really were snipers, don’t you think that would have been reported as opposed to our media saying our soldiers killed innocent people? One more thing, how many murdered innocent journalists does it take for you to consider it a crime? One, to me, is one too many. p.s., How old are you?
Posted by Jerry Pope on May 17, 2003 at 6:46 PM
all i can say is thank god gore didn’t get elected!! over in the middle east they cut the heads off of people for their beliefs, here the democrats like to cut the heads off of unborn babies for convience! who are the barbarians? history is repeating itself , our nation is heading for times that were unthinkable a few years ago! people will start praying again just like they did after 9 11! all the talk agout getting the ” under god ” out of our schools ect. will be a faint memory! our country has been here 200yrs and most of us wise men live maybe 70yrs , the things happening today were prophecy from thousands of years ago!
Posted by rick barnes on May 17, 2003 at 6:59 PM
It’s a fact! In fact, I’m the Wise Man who prophesized it! Yes, I remember those days of yore, some two centuries ago. A time when a Revolutionary War was said to have defeated British Colonial Imperialism. Well, King Arthur once told me a little story about how Divine Providence made him fit to rule the land. It is the same G-D of which you spoke, whose gentle hand is guiding everything. The same one in whose name the brave crusades of our German cousins went for the most part unnsupported by our fellow Christian countrymen… apart from that of Prescott Bush, may he rest in peace. Yes, these 1000 years have been remarkable. How large is your penis, by the way?
Posted by J. Redmond on May 17, 2003 at 10:32 PM
Kurt Vonnegut and Noam Chomsky are two of the best minds in the country. I subscribe to In These Times (as well as 3 other progressive publications) because it is impossible to trust the blatant propaganda spewed by the mainstream media. I am grateful such alternatives still exist.
Posted by Angela Smith on May 18, 2003 at 10:46 AM
It’s remarkable how many people feel that the U.S. victory has proved that opponents of the war were wrong. Since when does the triumph of overwhelming force prove that force is morally right? We all expected that superior U.S. machinery would, as usual, prevail. The Iraqis couldn’t even put a plane in the air, as bombs and rockets rained down on them. Many of their soldiers fought to the death, defending their country against impossible odds. It seems a bit smug to gloat over the defeat of such men, especially from the safety of the living room.
There was a time when Americans could honor the valor of a fallen foe. That would seem appropriate now. But graceless gloating is the style today, a barbaric legacy of total war. We actually take pride in the fact that our machines are stronger than their brave men. We think a mechanical victory proves our cause righteous — even that it proves us courageous! Listen to the Limbaughs and Hannitys.
This is patriotism? Shouldn’t patriotism mean pride in your country’s honor — and a corresponding shame at its disgrace? A true patriotism is not at all the same thing as mere national vanity, of which we are seeing all too much these days. The spirit that boasts “We’re Number One” isn’t patriotism. It’s group egotism. The severest critics of ancient Israel were the holy prophets who loved it most. Our Lord wept over Jerusalem.
“To make us love our country,” in Edmund Burke’s famous words, “our country ought to be lovely.” I wish I could say that America is lovely today. I wish the world would refer to it admiringly as a “constitutional republic” rather than as a dreadful “superpower.” I wish we were envied and imitated for our laws instead of our bombs.
—-Joseph Sobran (excerpted from THE WANDERER’s April 24th issue)
Posted by Spider Bolognese on May 18, 2003 at 11:33 AM
Jerry, restrained doesn’t mean be nice to the enemy it means trying not to kill civilians. What if Saddam was in that bunker? Would you feel better if we only launched 31 cruise missiles and he escaped and prolonged the war by two weeks or a month and thousands more died?
What mass graves in Afghanistan? Are you saying we killed and hid the bodies of civilians? I’ll need more proof.
I didn’t say the journalists were the snipers just that you weren’t there and didn’t know if snipers were firing from the hotel. The same guys who shot their own civilians probably didn’t care if they put foreign journalists at risk by shooting from the same hotel. It worked, you’re so shocked that we fired back that you din’t even think that we were being fired upon. Any innocent deaths are too many. The difference between Iraqi’s killed by their own and these journalists is that we killed by accident and the reporters were warned about the dangers of being in a war zone. The real crimes were committed by Saddam’s regime, not us. I’m 37.
Posted by Jim on May 18, 2003 at 12:39 PM
Have enjoyed reading the thread… don’t care for Vonnegut’s writing either. He’s a nice and gentle man with a gentle sense of humor, but like most liberals, turns very nasty towards ideological opponents.
Can agree with his take on Bush tho. As this thread shows, he’s “a uniter not a divider”... “you’re either with us or with terrorists”... “a more humble foreign policy”. Yes, delivering chaos to Afghanistan and Iraq was very humble of him. Vonnegut is wrong in using the term “conservative” as he does. For a real conservative, see Joe Sobran’s writing of two posts up. The best thing written here so far!
Posted by Ed Norton on May 18, 2003 at 3:10 PM
Jerry, mass graves of Taliban fighters killed by, as the CNN article says “Afghan fighters”. Doesn’t sound like civilians on either side. So what’s your point?
Were you upset that the Taliban were mistreated by the Afghans?
As far as Sobran, he said “Since when does the triumph of overwhelming force prove that force is morally right?” We would be right whether our force was overwhelming or not. Our overwhelming force allowed us to be merciful to the civilain population.
As far as being the constitutional republic he wishes we were, that pretty much ended with the New Deal.
Posted by Jim on May 18, 2003 at 8:50 PM
Jim, my point is we have no proof of just who was buried in those mass graves, or who put them there. Lots of mass graves are popping up all over the world. The Israeli’s tried to hide there’s, and two more were found in Iraq this weekend. To top it all off, if you’ll notice the second link in my previous entry, the US authorized the digging of mass graves for their own troops-if they became infected by some viral weapon. So it’s safe to say they aren’t morally opposed to the idea.
Posted by Jerry Pope on May 18, 2003 at 9:52 PM
Darn right Mr Vonnegut and thank you for having the balls to say it so well. May I save this story so that I can share it with friends? May you live much longer than eighty years. We need more courageous writers like you.
Peace to you and yours,
Respectfully,
MG Bagby
Posted by MG Bagby on May 19, 2003 at 5:16 AM
Jerry, you’re jumping from a story that clearly states these are Taliban killed by Afghans to assuming some sinister action on our part. I just don’t see it.
The second link was a hypothetical, there are no American soldiers in any mass graves.
So where are these Israeli mass graves? Are they full of the thousands of innocent’s killed in Jenin? Oh, wait, there were only 50 or so killed in Jenin and they were mostly (totally) men of fighting age.
As far as our being morally for or against mass graves if our own soldiers get killed by bio weapons, I don’t see your point.
What would you prefer, bringing the bodies back to the US and causing an outbreak of some horrific disease? I think that would be immoral.
We aren’t using bio weapons. The mass graves in Iraq are just more proof that we were morally justified in toppling Saddam.
Posted by Jim on May 19, 2003 at 9:26 AM
Count me as one who thought that Mr. Vonnegut’s speech was erudite, wise, gentle and thoughtful EXCEPT for the lonely two items picked out by Jon. This is an excellent example how we imperfect humans so often screw up our best works with a little fit of irrational anger, thereby insuring failure to convince those not already convinced.
Posted by Ed George on May 19, 2003 at 11:03 AM
Jim, I have enjoyed our dialogue. It’s comforting to know there are still people who blindly believe in the ideals that used to make America great. You said: “I’ll need more proof.” Then you assume that there are no American soldiers in mass graves, that our people had nothing to do with the mass graves in Afghanistan and Iraq, that we aren’t using bio weapons. You must believe in the Freemason motto that’s on our dollar bill. To wit: annuit coeptis-He favors our undertaking. Morally right, are we? Keep in mind that it was our country who dropped the atomic bomb, that lied to the people about their lack of foreknowledge concerning Pearl Harbor and 9/11, lied about there being WMD in Iraq, killed 2.5 million civilians in Viet Nam, passed the NAFTA bill so the American workers would lose their jobs and already bloated corporations could get richer. The list of horrible lies and atrocities goes on. We are being led by a president who stole the election, whose father-though the Carlyle Group-had dealings with the Taliban for years right up to 9/11, and whose grandfather sold weapons to the Nazis. When I assume something “sinister” is going on, I base my hypothesis on these things. The crusaders thought they had the moral right too, so did those who were responsible for the Spanish Inquistion, witch hunts, and the Nazis. So what do you base your assumptions on; why do you think we have the moral obligation to attack such small countries? Our government claimed it was to take out Saddam and his WMD. But Saddam still lives, and they found no WMD. Either their Intelligence is way off base, or they went there for another reason.
Posted by Jerry Pope on May 19, 2003 at 12:32 PM
Sorry Jerry, you lost me here “lied to the people about their lack of foreknowledge concerning Pearl Harbor and 9/11”
Keep that tinfoil hat on tight. Good luck, God Bless.
Posted by Jim on May 19, 2003 at 12:47 PM
What has happened to us?
Insideous biosocioprolepsis caused by a deep-seated pseudonomania. These days we call it pathological liar but it is symptomatic of societal Multiple Personality Disorder compounded with a lot of paranoid delirium (as seen recently above). For instance the author’s name is not really “Kurt Vonnegut”. His parents probably named him “Kurt Winslow” or something like that when they welcomed him into the Vonnegut family. He has been deceived into telling people his family name is part of his own true name - identification “in rem” as a vessel a/k/a legal name. So we never learn avoidance or refusal for cause and spend our days just trying to stay out of jail. Just asking the above question is wandering dangerously close to the edge, Kurt whoever you are. Courage maybe.
Posted by David Merrill on May 19, 2003 at 1:51 PM
Jim, I am undecided about the clarity of their foreknowledge in terms of 9/11 - they knew SOMETHING was up, and they new New York was a potential target. The FBI and CIA have admitted as much.
The court rulings after the first WTC attack actually became part of public record. It was in these records where they made public the fact that a transatlantic jet with a full tank could possibly cause the buildings to collapse.
And then you have the FBI report on people learning how to fly but not how to land.
Each year, the CIA puts out a report of potential risks to National Security.
Since 1995, and even gradually leading up to that, there have been specific and distinct warnings published, which said a terrorist attack on American soil was imminent. It also said that previously-targeted sites were at risk.
As far as Pearl Harbor goes, that’s what they’re teaching kids in public school textbooks these days. It’s presumably common knowledge that the government had prior knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack plan. Why do you think they got all the “important” ships and people out of the way and only lower-ranking, working-class people died in that attack?
Jerry, it’s spelled Carlisle group. The Freemason quote is also a bit off. Bush I and II did, however, get sworn in on Freemason Bibles, which is an Anglican Sect (AKA “Organized Crime”).
Their lineage traces back to British Royalty, hence their high Freemason status.
Skull & Bones at Yale is also a factor in their enormous amount of power. It comes from the German Illuminati movement, which was driven underground in the 18th century. They in the business of (in)breeding names.
See if you can find a roster of members, and notice how many presidential names you find. Barbara Bush descended from Franklin Pierce.
The weapons of mass destruction WERE there; they just can’t figure out where they went. They gave them the weapons in 1982.
And guess which powermad CIA man was stationed in Texas in November of 1963. Somebody they couldn’t shoot, because his daddy was more powerful than Joe Kennedy.
Read.
Posted by Charlie on May 19, 2003 at 2:00 PM
Just read Sirens of Titan and it’ll all make sense. Thanks Kurt, your stories are awesome.
Posted by john on May 19, 2003 at 2:56 PM
Charlie, glad to see somebody out there knows their stuff when it comes to secret societies. I’ve heard annuit coeptis translated many different ways. Some sources say it means “the king sees”, hence the all-seeing eye. Is that George HW Bush you’re referring to who was stationed in Texas, or George Jr? I didn’t know that, very interesting. I’d be proud if you checked out my web page, which deals a lot with this sort of thing. www.thisiswhoweare.com
Jim, your tinfoil hat remark shows how much all the media disinformation and propaganda has influenced your thinking. Our country was founded on questioning the word of authority, dissent, and rebellion. It’s nice to see you have your American flag blinders on.
Posted by Jerry Pope on May 19, 2003 at 4:49 PM
Mr. Vonnegut,
Ignore the “smug intellects” remarks, and rejoice there are still free thinking “lefties” left in America…for now at least.
Brilliant as always Vonnegut!
The sharing of the name Clement by Twain and your grandfather, must have affected your gene pool…at least psychologically, thus explaining your delightful humerous slanted perspective.
Thanks for all your wonderful imaginative works in YOUR lifetime, it has enriched mine.
Posted by Patti on May 19, 2003 at 6:06 PM
Good Vonnegut. Maybe 80, but still thinking clearly.
Posted by Miriam Ungerer on May 19, 2003 at 10:20 PM
Charlie et al;
In your world of secret societies, I am “them”. In your paranoia you are the steaks on the table by choice and consent.
from “Operations Research Technical Manual TM-SW7905.1”
“Energy
Energy is recognized as the key to all activity on earth. Natural science is the study of the sources and control of natural energy, and social science, theoretically expressed as economics, is the study of the sources and control of social energy. Both are bookkeeping systems: mathematics. Therefore, mathematics is the primary energy science. And the bookkeeper can be king if the public can be kept ignorant of the methodology of the bookkeeping.
All science is merely a means to an end. The means is knowledge. The end is control. Beyond this remains only one issue: Who will be the beneficiary?
In 1954 this was the issue of primary concern. Although the so-called “moral issues” were raised, in view of the law of natural selection it was agreed that a nation or world of people who will not use their intelligence are no better than animals who do not have intelligence. Such people are beasts of burden and steaks on the table by choice and consent.”
Do you see it now? We had to discern the identity of the beneficiary. As any good Trustee (“public trust”; Article VI Constitution) would.
Posted by David Merrill on May 20, 2003 at 6:08 AM
“Such a writing must be secured from public scrutiny. Otherwise, it might be recognized as a technically formal declaration of domestic war.”
I too can play the Operations Research Technical Manual TM-SW7905.1 game.
Ever heard of a concept used in the intelligence community called “insight?” If you’re “them,” surely you’ve slung it around yourself from time to time.
Maybe it’s time you checked in on that other hand. Like any good trustee (drone), you’ve been led to believe that it is you who are in the know.
My friend, “they” won’t be too happy about your declaration of war. Particularly from some work of fiction such as “Operations Research Technical Manual TM-SW7905.1”
Maybe you should take a page from that Texas CIA man’s book and learn the value of silence.
Considered that maybe it is I who am “them?”
Posted by Charlie on May 20, 2003 at 7:03 AM
Message to Claud E. Dutro: David Merrill has forfeited his membership.
Posted by Charlie on May 20, 2003 at 7:58 AM
Membership?
I guess that is an “us” and “them” thing.
Posted by David Merrill on May 20, 2003 at 10:12 AM
Jerry, I went to your site and read the artice on Israeli mass graves. It’s a little old, April 10,2002. Any updates? How many were really buried in those mass graves? Hundreds, thousands?
Posted by Jim on May 20, 2003 at 10:13 AM
No, it’s a you thing. Tell them Charlie sends his regards.
Posted by Charlie on May 20, 2003 at 11:03 AM
Jim, thanks for taking the time to check out my web page. Yes, the article on mass graves in Israel is old. I usually try to find stuff more current than that. What intrigued me about it though was Israel trying to cover up their war crimes. I think that speaks to what is going on now with all the mass graves being found in Afghanistan and Iraq. I’ll look for some updates. I add links to the page every few days. As you can see the site is not a “conspiracy theory” site per se. I gather news links from various credible sources, links to stories that are most often buried in the news-“hidden in plain sight”. I do this not because I hate our country; on the contrary, I love it very much. But I believe in what Edward Abbey said. To wit: “A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.” If you have any suggestions or comments on the page, feel free to email me.
Posted by Jerry Pope on May 20, 2003 at 11:51 AM
Mr. Vonnegut,
C.S. Lewis, Sir Thomas Malory, J.D. Salinger, You, Richard Brautigan, Robert Pirsig, Black Elk (“Black Elk Speaks”), Hermann Hesse, James Redfield, Mark Twain, Paulo Coelo, Kenneth Kraft, the Buddha, and Philip Kapleau have been my milestones (in roughly chronological order). Thank you.
America is rich. The number 1 heath problem in America is obesity. The rest of the world is insanely poor. Nearly 2 billion people in the world do not have adequate water. Nearly 1 billion are malnourished.
Let’s make the rest of the world like us! This doesn’t work as America is dependent on cheap labor. We MUST exploit the poor people of the world to live in excess. We live in excess at the expense of the poor people in the world.
Most Americans are ignorant of this. Many don’t know. Many refuse to face the reality of the world.
When you defend the current American way of life, what are you defending?
And the obvious solution is: Stop consuming to excess. Don’t buy what you don’t need. Halve the military budget. Build housing for the homeless, supply the hungry with food, provide free education and healthcare to those who want it. Require all citizens to spend one year with the Peace Corps in a third world country helping deliver relief supplies, administering medicine, or teaching.
Help everyone reach a basic, sustainable, comforatble standard of living. Then you can go and get super rich if you want.
If America was doing this do you think that people would try to kill us?
Posted by Misha on May 20, 2003 at 2:29 PM
Jim, I did some research on those mass graves in Jenin. Unfortunately no clear understanding was forthcoming, since the number of bodies found jumps from 45 through 900. Powell made a trip out there and was quoted as saying: “I see no evidence of mass graves.” Somehow this vile act got shuffled around and buried, just like what really happened in Waco, TX during that fateful April morning. Remember how that FBI audio tape was found? The special agent in charge gave permision to “fire pyrotechnic munitions”. This story was in the news briefly in 1999. Janet Reno was questioned. Then it just sort of went away. If anyone out there can help me to know more about Jenin, and what happened with those mass graves, please let me know.
Posted by Jerry Pope on May 21, 2003 at 1:25 AM
Kurt Vonnegut is one of the most intelligent, eloquent writers in our time, thoughtfully expressing the viewpoint of millions. Thank you Mr. Vonnegut.
Posted by Lilly Norton on May 21, 2003 at 7:43 AM
Asi es la vida si no cambiamos las circumnstancias
Posted by T.Perez on May 21, 2003 at 8:47 AM
An excellent piece of work; I’m reminded- in a deeply worrisome resonance- of the US president from the film adaptation of “Harrison Bergeron”.
“You gotta show dese pissants dey can’t screw wid youse!”- well, maybe. Personally I don’t believe that violence- or the threat of violence, or economic violence- will ever change anything, other than our perception at a grassroots level.
We’re well on our way to losing all respect for our governments, UK and US.
Posted by Jasmine Strong on May 22, 2003 at 9:04 AM
Ahhh, the High Pharisee of Self Defeatism & Chonic Failurism
expounds yet again, on what it means to be a DemoLoser Socialist.
Posted by Hari Seldon on May 22, 2003 at 10:24 AM
One might go one step further and say that the US and the UK are one government, and they have absolutely no respect for their citizens.
Hari, go have yourself another helping of Freedom Fries, stick an American Flag on your car antenna, and keep on demonstrating your ignorance: it’s your calling.
Posted by J. Redmond on May 22, 2003 at 11:14 AM
Hey J Redmond, just had a question for you. If the governments in the U.S. and U.K. have no respect for their citizens why is the flow of refugees all from enlightened countries here and not from here to say France or Iraq?
In fact, if we’re so repressive why would you stick around?
Posted by Jim on May 22, 2003 at 4:08 PM
Because I love this country dearly and want it back. The promise of Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness, and Government For the People and By the People has been very badly broken - sometimes gradually, sometimes not - over the past five decades. Try and name one country that hasn’t suffered from the cruel effects of US and British Colonialism.
Posted by J. Redmond on May 23, 2003 at 12:18 PM
J Redmond,
I appreciate the sentiment but I think the whole Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness thing was welched on with the slaughter of eighty million Native Americans that was ongoing at the time. Slavery too.
P.S. For an example of more recent American imperialist rants, the writings of Theodore Roosevelt serve pretty well. Hitler much admired him. It is easy to see why.
P.P.S. For an example of very recent American imperialist rants, here’s my favourite by the current “President”:
“History will be written only by us”
I presume he’s not talking about the other six billion people on the planet.
Posted by mic on May 23, 2003 at 1:03 PM
Charlie, it’s spelled Carlyle Group. Check out this link. linkthing.com/screed/carlyle_group_cluster.html
Posted by Jerry Pope on May 23, 2003 at 1:26 PM
J Redmond, You are right. This isn’t our country anymore, hasn’t been since the signing of the National Security Act in 1947. In fact, I don’t think it was ever ours to begin with. Of the 56 signatures on the Declaration of Independence, 50 were known Freemasons. Washington himself was the head of his Alexandrian lodge. The Masons evolved from the Knights Templar, who started out as 9 French crusaders around 1000 A.D. In 1307 AD the King of France convinced Pope Clement V to support him in hunting down and killing the Templars. Some of them escaped to Scotland where they took on the name Scottish Rite of Freemasonry. By the way, the order for the Templars’ extermination was issued on Friday the 13th. That’s why it is still considered an unlucky day. This is not some conspiracy theory. This is historical fact. These people have been in power for a thousand years, and have the richest families and the most powerful military in the world behind them.
Posted by Jerry Pope on May 23, 2003 at 1:58 PM
Dear Kurt,
I only wish there were more people such as you! Well done.
Keith
Posted by Keith on May 23, 2003 at 3:14 PM
http://www.carlylegroup.com/eng/index.html
Jerry, I stand corrected. There are, in fact, two Carlisle/Carlyle Groups. I apologize for correcting you. That was arrogant of me. Our Royalty has been removed from the list, but Ex-Prime Minister John Major is stilll advertised.
But Charlie isn’t spelled Charlie; it’s spelled Charley! Ha!
You are also correct about the history of Masonry. The Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite and the Grand York Rite are the two upper sides of the triangle.
The title “Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret” is commonly applied to the central figure, though there are variations. In the middle, toward the top, below the Eye, resides the Royal Crest of Great Britain.
Some say the 9 French Crusaders were the illegitimate descendents of Christ.
There are two kinds of Masons: Operative and Speculative.
The majority of Masons are the harmless, Speculative ones. They do, in fact, operate as a charitable organization, as they claim.
The Operatives are the ones that spawn the conspiracy theories, with their enormous wealth and power.
Speculatives are commonly led to believe they know “The Royal Secret,” but there are many layers.
The Temple of Solomon is central in their ideology. Some Freemason Bibles come with a ledger, detailing the cost of the materials, as well as plans for the rebuilding of the temple (some disagree on the time, but it is generally assumed to be the end of the world).
The King James Version is, in fact, written in Masonic code. You will need to study Masonic texts if you want to understand the meanings hidden within. The Torah, the Talmud, and the Koran have also been translated in England with Masonic codes, as the Masons claim ownership of Monotheism.
New York Governor Pataki announced his joining the Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite at the same time he expressed an interest in the 2008 candidacy. Again, not a conspiracy theory, just a fact.
The Catholic church considers this an excommunicable offense, and he is a Catholic.
www.nymasons.org
The Masons didn’t have as much power over the American people back in the 18th and 19th centuries as they do today, despite their stations in government.
This is partially due to the event I vaguely mentioned before. And one man’s ability to blackmail the most powerful people in the world.
Don’t get your hopes up about trying to stop the Masons or getting people to believe you. Be safe, be well.
Posted by Charlie on May 23, 2003 at 8:32 PM
Hey J, name one country that’s better off now than they were when the British were still in charge. It’s been 40+ years since most colonies threw off the cruel yoke of the Brits. Are they a paradise yet? Or are they bust killing each other with machetes?
As far as Mics comments about 80 million Native Americans, please. Where do you get your numbers, the DNC?
Posted by Jim on May 23, 2003 at 8:35 PM
bust = busy
Posted by Jim on May 23, 2003 at 8:36 PM
Again, wingnuts, with their ridiculous talk-radio caricature of liberalism, can’t keep their mouths shut, continuing to mistake this backward step as a permanent state. All of the old clich
Posted by Alric Knebel on May 24, 2003 at 3:56 PM
If you say so Alric. Yeah Germany is a great place to work, as long as you’re not one of the 11% unemployed.
Canada’s socialized medicine works great, as long as you don’t get sick. How many Canadians come here for surgery? A lot. How many Americans go up there for care? I haven’t heard of any.
As far as stingy and greedy, you’re wrong. Americans are the most generous people on the planet.
As far as the rest of the “civilized world” how about some concrete examples? France? How’s that Ivory Coast invasion going? Don’t recall the U.N. resolution approving that one. England? Great gun control, too bad they have higher crime than the U.S. now.
Posted by Jim on May 24, 2003 at 8:02 PM
test
Posted by Alric Knebel on May 25, 2003 at 12:15 PM
Pete, you have nothing but the most banal of ideas about the United States, and I’ll do my best to disabuse you of them.
First, Canadians who come here for any sort of health care are very, very few. As for how many U. S. citizens go north, quite a few go to Canada for cheap medicine, enough in fact that pharmaceutical companies have lobbied Congress to address the problem. And that’s not just some propaganda put out by liberals. This has been discussed everywhere.
About Germany’s unemployment rate, 11% or 6%, what is really the difference to the people unemployed? Well, there is a difference. In Germany, the unemployed have a better quality of life than the low wage earners in the United States. The social contract in Germany is written to benefit all the people, that they share the benefits of work. Here, one group is viewed as the labor resources for another, much smaller group.
Our generosity: Look into it. You’re wrong.
Posted by Alric Knebel on May 25, 2003 at 1:07 PM
Well done, again, Mr. Vonnegut.
Impeach W.
Carol Schiff Peters
Posted by Carol Schiff Peters on May 25, 2003 at 7:14 PM
I think it’s fantastic and well articulated. you do need to examine your font size on the page
though
Posted by Vita on May 26, 2003 at 1:26 AM
Alric, if you can wait 20+ weeks in some cases for surgery, Canada is great. If you’ve got cancer, I don’t think you want to wait for surgery.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-bandow011503.asp
As the above article shows, many people come down here for care, the provinces send them. This doesn’t include the wealthier Canadians who don’t wait for the province to get around to it and just come down on their own.
As far as driving across the border to save a few bucks on pills, that has more to do with our higher litigation costs than anything.
I’m glad Germany’s 11% unemployment rate doesn’t bother you. Those “generous” benefits you are so proud of involve the government taxing workers at 50% or more and giving it to the unemployed. Is this what you mean by all the people sharing the benefits of work? Why stop at 11% unemployment? Would 20% be ok? As long as everyone can share the benefits of work. Can I share the benefits of your work? Could you just send me a check?
The American generosity I referred to was our private generosity. I don’t consider government spending to be generosity.
Posted by Jim on May 26, 2003 at 8:30 AM
Anyone who agree with your views
totally SUCK!!!
Get your history right!!!
Posted by Hilda Reyes Jensen on May 29, 2003 at 6:25 AM
How does democracy win the country back? Does “corporation” appear in the constitution? And shouldn’t there be a level of concern for the violence waged upon the underclasses in every society?
Hold on… my Hummer is double parked.
What was I saying?
Posted by Todd Jasmin on May 30, 2003 at 10:36 AM
I do not read english so well, but I know enough to enjoy the beauty and the truth of this article.
I’m from Nicaragua. In the 80
Posted by Eugenio Flores on May 31, 2003 at 10:15 AM
I have contacted numerous local, state, fed agencies due to what I have discovered by ‘accident’ - words / names / fronts along the hi-tech highway. Shock and awe / candid camera/ money says it all! I will continue to contact members of VPF and Artists United to Win Without War ... amazing ‘links’ about who appears to be who with their net identity. Very relative to the ‘Images of war ’ ... and the ‘war games’ written years ago .....
Dom Mastroserio LI 5/10/03 - I need to talk to you!!
Posted by Laurie Harrigan on May 31, 2003 at 8:41 PM
Eugenio, it wasn’t your elevator free buildings that were the threat, but your Communist dictator leadership. I guess there is no need for you to thanks us for pressuring Ortega to hold elections.
That “argument”, as you call it, killed millions of its own people in Russia, China, Cambodia and Nicaragua.
You’re welcome.
Posted by Jim on Jun 1, 2003 at 6:43 AM
Jim, tell that to the millions of kids, women and innocents men from Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Chile, Nicaragua, Mexico, El Salvador, Vietnam, I think I better stop naming countries because I could name almost any country in the world, who died because the US administrations where trying to save us without asking them. But I think any administration have taken as a big thank, a lot of territory from Mexico, oil from Irak, etc, etc.
Posted by Eugenio Flores on Jun 2, 2003 at 10:57 AM
Eugenio, if the Vietnamese didn’t want to be saved, why did so many climb into rickety boats once the Communists took over?
Ask anyone in Poland or Czech Republic or Latvia or Estonia if they wanted to be saved from the Soviets.
What about the millions killed in China or Russia, would they have asked us to save them, or did they prefer a mass grave?
You can always vote Ortega back into office.
Posted by Jim on Jun 2, 2003 at 2:56 PM
Great thinking & writing. I hesitate to call the userpers inhabiting the governing house should be grouped with other, more human people as “conservative”. I think they deserve their own name.
If you’d like, e mail me, I’ll send you the name or you could just use their own name suggestion, “evil-doers”.
Posted by william putney on Jun 3, 2003 at 5:44 AM
Great thinking & writing. I hesitate to call the userpers inhabiting the governing house should be grouped with other, more human people as “conservative”. I think they deserve their own name.
If you’d like, e mail me, I’ll send you the name or you could just use their own name suggestion, “evil-doers”.
Posted by william putney on Jun 3, 2003 at 5:47 AM
Dear Mr Vonnegut,
It is a great relief to find that there is still some political discussion taking place over the “Pond”. In Scotland we have deer, haggis, heather, highland dancing, missile subs and NSA listening posts, but we do not have the vote when the US elections come around, despite our foreign policy being practically dictated by the US, and our economy being half tied to yours. We rely on “Free Thinkers” in the US. We see a huge amount of US tv and literature here, and it looks like America is the saviour of the world, the protector of democracy and freedom. Nonsense, it would seem (ask Iraqi Civilians), but few even here (where we used to return commie members of parliament!) seem to want that illusion punctured. W may have succeeded. The UK is always to the left of the US politically and we find the endless flag-waving and pushing of the patriotism buttons mindless, dogmatic and terrifying. Sure, we’re no angels (ask India, Pakistan, most of Africa, China, etc etc) but at least we allow discussion without slinging names, casting aspersions on a person’s patriotism, and suppressing minority opinions. On the subject of literature, I love your books. I haven’t read all of them, but most. The truth should be clear and simple, and you shame every verbose page-filler with your crystal statement and beautiful characters. I have many friends who feel that they love you, although they’ve never met you. A prediction: another invasion (Iran, Yemen, Syria, Libya, N Korea?) more Bread and Circuses, and a second term. Unless America once again hearkens to Abraham Lincoln and Kurt Vonnegut.
Posted by Jock on Jun 6, 2003 at 3:52 AM
Jon from Twin Falls,
As though us “lefties” were never attacked by the right wing with names like, “Commie”, “America-hating”, “fucking idiots”, blah blah blah.
I should cut you some slack—You are, after all, from Twin Falls, where narrow-minded right-wing religious thinking says anyone who is Catholic, or tolerant of diversity, or thinks for themselves or chooses not to marry are all going against the vengeful God who will smite them for their ways.
You know what is as bad as fundamental Islamic ideology? Right-wing Christian conservatism.
Posted by neil on Jun 10, 2003 at 3:55 AM
At age 18 I haven’t seen all that much, but what I have gleaned I feel to be quite important. I have seen the dissappearance of cold war paranoia and the beauty and safety and progressiveness of the 90s. The 90’s were a really nice time to be a child and teenager, the 90’s were perfect (other than the relentless torture I experienced from hateful childrenmostly at church but Im a better person for it)
Because I was young I believed that people had become more rational and that war and paranoia would probably never return in my lifetime. Naive. There are always those out there that wish to use other people’s fears for there own personal success. Sick bastards. Thats what has happened. Bush fumbles his way through 8 months in office destroying our budget surplus and tragedy strikes and he decides to USE it. I was shocked at the outcome of September 11th… The attacks themselves were from criminals not belligerant nations, how on earth can you fight wars in that name? . But ambitious Mr. Bush stepped up and used the scared and vulnerable people and preyed on those weaknesses in order to gain their loyalty, and thus, advance his own agenda (a lot like what hitler did in the early thirties). . Too many people are scared or already conservative. (being from texas my whole family but me is right wing and i often feel quite isolated. Nevertheless, I was never able to find an iota of intelligence or, more importantly, sense or responsibility in the right). Those bastards who put out all of the fear inducing propaganda must be sociopaths or something because they obviously have no conscience. But alas, people are now asking where Iraq’s WMDs are. Finally. Of course we know there are none and never were. Iraq is a third world country whose economy was utterly dependent on oil but with the embargo NO ONE was buying. How oh how would they raise revenue to build these scary machines and such that could kill, or even worse, destroy the american consumerism lifestyle that spawns the hate we have in our souls that we enjoy so much. So what did Iraq do to get this money??? Sell sand??? Paranoia is contemptable, there is no logic in it. Maybe Americans will see that one day. Bush manipulated the american people in a heinous way. He lied to all of us. People need to scream that everyday. Yell it! Scream the truth! No one is telling the truth! The truth is the only thing that can set us free from this reign of terror…
Posted by Lana on Jun 13, 2003 at 4:58 PM
I discovered your article in The Progressive. I enjoy reading your articles. It is refreshing to know that there are still true journalist.
You’ve hit the nail right on the head. We have to continue to speak out.
Thank you for your time.
Posted by Amy Sanders on Jun 26, 2003 at 3:54 PM
There appears to be a misunderstanding as to what a conservative is these days. The conservative philosophy is not what is currently being passed off as such. There is a huge gulf between neo-conservatism and conservatism in the classical sense. I consider myself a conservative and believe the current administration has hijacked the conservative voice in America.
Posted by Nicholas Olson on Jul 12, 2003 at 2:47 PM
Hilda- get your grammar right!!!
Posted by mike on Aug 18, 2003 at 12:37 PM
Lana- You make more sense than most “supposed” adults I come across.
Posted by mike on Aug 18, 2003 at 12:40 PM
To Laurie Harrington: Sorry I’ve not had the opportunity to contribute to this site of late. Life in our political climate has caught me up in a seemingly unending mission of research and work. I’ve been making the internet rounds these past few days once again and was surprised to find a few of these still ongoing personal feuds alive and kicking though not yet free of the personal vituperations and vitriol spitting out mostly from the biased and intolerant of all those who are politically and psychologically frozen. If you still wish to contact me, just click onto my name, (highlightened in red), and I’d be glad to communicate with you should you come round full circle back to this site. Mr. Vonnegut, I just re-read, “Deadeye Dick”, and am still smiling. Next time I contribute, if you don’t mind, I’d like to post a fairly comprehensive bibliography of your novels. Maybe some of my fellow contributors to this site will glean a bit of healthy, “Vonnegutism”, should they deign to crack a volume or ten.
Posted by Dom Mastroseri on Sep 3, 2003 at 8:59 PM
Well, I see no reason, legal or otherwise, why I shouldn’t present a bibliographical list of the books Mr. Vonnegut has authored. It’s not comprehensive but pretty much includes most of his major work…to the extent to which I’m aware.
Do yourselves a favor, folks-peruse as many as you can. Winter’s on it’s way so shut that hypno-tube off and you will be treating yourselves to some of the best contemporary literature extant.
1-Player Piano
2-The Sirens Of Titan
3-Cat’s Cradle
4-Mother Night
5-God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater
6-Welcome To The Monkey House
7-Slaughterhouse Five
8-Slapstick
9-Happy Birthday, Wanda June
10-Wampeters, Foma, & Granfalloons
11-Breakfast Of Champions
12-Jailbird
13-Palm Sunday
14-Galapagos
15-Deadeye Dick
Actually, these are titles I’ve either owned and lost or borrowed and still possess, though I know where only two actually are around my house. Not any reflection on Kurt Vonnegut-just a revelatory confession about myself. Amen
Posted by Dom Mastroserio on Sep 16, 2003 at 7:18 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how quick some people are to believe anything the government releases to the press. As long as it was on TV or in the paper, it must be true. And, strange to say, some peoples’ entire world views are shaped by these two highly questionable institutions, the media and the government. And yet, the briefest historical inquiry will suffice to demonstrate that both government and press have consistently mis-informed the people, or told them outright lies in the pursuit of policies which were deemed “too important” to entrust the masses with anything approaching the truth about them. And now we have “grown ups” discussing the dangers of Sadaam and Osama, as if these two sinister characters just showed up out of nowhere, with no history behind them. The moral of the story would seem to be: if you relegate yourself to the role of passive recipient of information or “history”, then you are not likely to have anything approaching the whole story.
Posted by Peter Swayze on Oct 31, 2003 at 11:48 AM
So, here I am, in the middle of nowhere in the middle of nowhere…. (yes, that was an intended pun from the Dept. of Redundancy Dept.) And it seems to me that there are a lot of people out there who don’t seem to get along…. (duh) Now, I would consider myself to the left of the political spectrum…. I think G.W. Bush is a liar and a cheat… and things will only get worse with the advent of electronic, un-recountable voting machines….. But I also take the time to read view points form both sides of the story…... Has anyone from the left ever checked out www.boortz.com or www.drudgereport.com ?? The really, REALLY silly part about it all, is that the right seems to say that “______” is controlled by the left, while at the same time, the left says that “______” is controlled by the right…... Has anyone ever thought to think that maybe your just upset that your not hearing what you want to hear??
I know that I’ll probably get flamed… and that’s ok, and if you really, really want to have a grown-up discussion…. Either from the left or the right…. just send me an email…. who wants a thousand and two shaved monkeys reading all our thoughts anyways??
Posted by Tony on Oct 31, 2003 at 1:16 PM
ah yes, a brief history lesson involving the states’ invasion of Mexico. Thanks Mr. Vonnegut. This littel gem just added to the sheer pleasure of reading your work.
Posted by Daniel on Jan 12, 2004 at 5:38 AM
I grew up in the seventies reading Kurt Vonnegut and Frank Herbert while feeling that the world was a comforting and reassuring place. I imagined as a child that the world would evolve into a spectacular Eden. Gone was the death penalty that I even as a kid found as anachronistic as slavery. We now had good laws to protect endangered species and our environment. My biggest fear then was total nuclear devestation. No small thing but who knew it would become this instead? A painfully slow descent into corporate hegemony. Mr. Vonnegut’s work helped create a prophecy of hope for my generation. Hope that miniature chinese people can conquer outer space more efficiently all the way to the benefits of brushing your teeth with hot water. Kurt, at 80 you’re still a madman and a prophet. Solopism rules.
Posted by thomas nock on Apr 14, 2004 at 1:25 PM
good good good good site
Posted by DANNY on Apr 28, 2004 at 9:03 AM
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Reader Comments
Jim, when I pointed out what happened at the bunker it was not to imply that it was civilian. What I was referring to was you calling it “the most restrained war in history”. How many bunker-buster missles does it take to knock out one bunker? You want to talk about civilians, how about the mass graves found in Afghanistan? Or how about the looters being shot? And if you want to talk about firebombing the whole city, have you seen the pictures of Baghdad? It’s in little pieces. If those journalists really were snipers, don’t you think that would have been reported as opposed to our media saying our soldiers killed innocent people? One more thing, how many murdered innocent journalists does it take for you to consider it a crime? One, to me, is one too many. p.s., How old are you?
all i can say is thank god gore didn’t get elected!! over in the middle east they cut the heads off of people for their beliefs, here the democrats like to cut the heads off of unborn babies for convience! who are the barbarians? history is repeating itself , our nation is heading for times that were unthinkable a few years ago! people will start praying again just like they did after 9 11! all the talk agout getting the ” under god ” out of our schools ect. will be a faint memory! our country has been here 200yrs and most of us wise men live maybe 70yrs , the things happening today were prophecy from thousands of years ago!
It’s a fact! In fact, I’m the Wise Man who prophesized it! Yes, I remember those days of yore, some two centuries ago. A time when a Revolutionary War was said to have defeated British Colonial Imperialism. Well, King Arthur once told me a little story about how Divine Providence made him fit to rule the land. It is the same G-D of which you spoke, whose gentle hand is guiding everything. The same one in whose name the brave crusades of our German cousins went for the most part unnsupported by our fellow Christian countrymen… apart from that of Prescott Bush, may he rest in peace. Yes, these 1000 years have been remarkable. How large is your penis, by the way?
Kurt Vonnegut and Noam Chomsky are two of the best minds in the country. I subscribe to In These Times (as well as 3 other progressive publications) because it is impossible to trust the blatant propaganda spewed by the mainstream media. I am grateful such alternatives still exist.
It’s remarkable how many people feel that the U.S. victory has proved that opponents of the war were wrong. Since when does the triumph of overwhelming force prove that force is morally right? We all expected that superior U.S. machinery would, as usual, prevail. The Iraqis couldn’t even put a plane in the air, as bombs and rockets rained down on them. Many of their soldiers fought to the death, defending their country against impossible odds. It seems a bit smug to gloat over the defeat of such men, especially from the safety of the living room.
There was a time when Americans could honor the valor of a fallen foe. That would seem appropriate now. But graceless gloating is the style today, a barbaric legacy of total war. We actually take pride in the fact that our machines are stronger than their brave men. We think a mechanical victory proves our cause righteous — even that it proves us courageous! Listen to the Limbaughs and Hannitys.
This is patriotism? Shouldn’t patriotism mean pride in your country’s honor — and a corresponding shame at its disgrace? A true patriotism is not at all the same thing as mere national vanity, of which we are seeing all too much these days. The spirit that boasts “We’re Number One” isn’t patriotism. It’s group egotism. The severest critics of ancient Israel were the holy prophets who loved it most. Our Lord wept over Jerusalem.
“To make us love our country,” in Edmund Burke’s famous words, “our country ought to be lovely.” I wish I could say that America is lovely today. I wish the world would refer to it admiringly as a “constitutional republic” rather than as a dreadful “superpower.” I wish we were envied and imitated for our laws instead of our bombs.
—-Joseph Sobran (excerpted from THE WANDERER’s April 24th issue)
Jerry, restrained doesn’t mean be nice to the enemy it means trying not to kill civilians. What if Saddam was in that bunker? Would you feel better if we only launched 31 cruise missiles and he escaped and prolonged the war by two weeks or a month and thousands more died?
What mass graves in Afghanistan? Are you saying we killed and hid the bodies of civilians? I’ll need more proof.
I didn’t say the journalists were the snipers just that you weren’t there and didn’t know if snipers were firing from the hotel. The same guys who shot their own civilians probably didn’t care if they put foreign journalists at risk by shooting from the same hotel. It worked, you’re so shocked that we fired back that you din’t even think that we were being fired upon. Any innocent deaths are too many. The difference between Iraqi’s killed by their own and these journalists is that we killed by accident and the reporters were warned about the dangers of being in a war zone. The real crimes were committed by Saddam’s regime, not us. I’m 37.
Jim, here’s the link for mass graves in Afghanistan- http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/ asiapcf/central/08/29/afghanistan.mass.graves/
You should check this one out too-
http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/012603A.mass.graves.htm
It talks about how our own soldiers could be in some of those mass graves.
Have enjoyed reading the thread… don’t care for Vonnegut’s writing either. He’s a nice and gentle man with a gentle sense of humor, but like most liberals, turns very nasty towards ideological opponents.
Can agree with his take on Bush tho. As this thread shows, he’s “a uniter not a divider”... “you’re either with us or with terrorists”... “a more humble foreign policy”. Yes, delivering chaos to Afghanistan and Iraq was very humble of him. Vonnegut is wrong in using the term “conservative” as he does. For a real conservative, see Joe Sobran’s writing of two posts up. The best thing written here so far!
Jerry, mass graves of Taliban fighters killed by, as the CNN article says “Afghan fighters”. Doesn’t sound like civilians on either side. So what’s your point?
Were you upset that the Taliban were mistreated by the Afghans?
As far as Sobran, he said “Since when does the triumph of overwhelming force prove that force is morally right?” We would be right whether our force was overwhelming or not. Our overwhelming force allowed us to be merciful to the civilain population.
As far as being the constitutional republic he wishes we were, that pretty much ended with the New Deal.
Jim, my point is we have no proof of just who was buried in those mass graves, or who put them there. Lots of mass graves are popping up all over the world. The Israeli’s tried to hide there’s, and two more were found in Iraq this weekend. To top it all off, if you’ll notice the second link in my previous entry, the US authorized the digging of mass graves for their own troops-if they became infected by some viral weapon. So it’s safe to say they aren’t morally opposed to the idea.
Darn right Mr Vonnegut and thank you for having the balls to say it so well. May I save this story so that I can share it with friends? May you live much longer than eighty years. We need more courageous writers like you.
Peace to you and yours,
Respectfully,
MG Bagby
Jerry, you’re jumping from a story that clearly states these are Taliban killed by Afghans to assuming some sinister action on our part. I just don’t see it.
The second link was a hypothetical, there are no American soldiers in any mass graves.
So where are these Israeli mass graves? Are they full of the thousands of innocent’s killed in Jenin? Oh, wait, there were only 50 or so killed in Jenin and they were mostly (totally) men of fighting age.
As far as our being morally for or against mass graves if our own soldiers get killed by bio weapons, I don’t see your point.
What would you prefer, bringing the bodies back to the US and causing an outbreak of some horrific disease? I think that would be immoral.
We aren’t using bio weapons. The mass graves in Iraq are just more proof that we were morally justified in toppling Saddam.
Count me as one who thought that Mr. Vonnegut’s speech was erudite, wise, gentle and thoughtful EXCEPT for the lonely two items picked out by Jon. This is an excellent example how we imperfect humans so often screw up our best works with a little fit of irrational anger, thereby insuring failure to convince those not already convinced.
Jim, I have enjoyed our dialogue. It’s comforting to know there are still people who blindly believe in the ideals that used to make America great. You said: “I’ll need more proof.” Then you assume that there are no American soldiers in mass graves, that our people had nothing to do with the mass graves in Afghanistan and Iraq, that we aren’t using bio weapons. You must believe in the Freemason motto that’s on our dollar bill. To wit: annuit coeptis-He favors our undertaking. Morally right, are we? Keep in mind that it was our country who dropped the atomic bomb, that lied to the people about their lack of foreknowledge concerning Pearl Harbor and 9/11, lied about there being WMD in Iraq, killed 2.5 million civilians in Viet Nam, passed the NAFTA bill so the American workers would lose their jobs and already bloated corporations could get richer. The list of horrible lies and atrocities goes on. We are being led by a president who stole the election, whose father-though the Carlyle Group-had dealings with the Taliban for years right up to 9/11, and whose grandfather sold weapons to the Nazis. When I assume something “sinister” is going on, I base my hypothesis on these things. The crusaders thought they had the moral right too, so did those who were responsible for the Spanish Inquistion, witch hunts, and the Nazis. So what do you base your assumptions on; why do you think we have the moral obligation to attack such small countries? Our government claimed it was to take out Saddam and his WMD. But Saddam still lives, and they found no WMD. Either their Intelligence is way off base, or they went there for another reason.
Sorry Jerry, you lost me here “lied to the people about their lack of foreknowledge concerning Pearl Harbor and 9/11”
Keep that tinfoil hat on tight. Good luck, God Bless.
What has happened to us?
Insideous biosocioprolepsis caused by a deep-seated pseudonomania. These days we call it pathological liar but it is symptomatic of societal Multiple Personality Disorder compounded with a lot of paranoid delirium (as seen recently above). For instance the author’s name is not really “Kurt Vonnegut”. His parents probably named him “Kurt Winslow” or something like that when they welcomed him into the Vonnegut family. He has been deceived into telling people his family name is part of his own true name - identification “in rem” as a vessel a/k/a legal name. So we never learn avoidance or refusal for cause and spend our days just trying to stay out of jail. Just asking the above question is wandering dangerously close to the edge, Kurt whoever you are. Courage maybe.
Jim, I am undecided about the clarity of their foreknowledge in terms of 9/11 - they knew SOMETHING was up, and they new New York was a potential target. The FBI and CIA have admitted as much.
The court rulings after the first WTC attack actually became part of public record. It was in these records where they made public the fact that a transatlantic jet with a full tank could possibly cause the buildings to collapse.
And then you have the FBI report on people learning how to fly but not how to land.
Each year, the CIA puts out a report of potential risks to National Security.
Since 1995, and even gradually leading up to that, there have been specific and distinct warnings published, which said a terrorist attack on American soil was imminent. It also said that previously-targeted sites were at risk.
As far as Pearl Harbor goes, that’s what they’re teaching kids in public school textbooks these days. It’s presumably common knowledge that the government had prior knowledge of the Pearl Harbor attack plan. Why do you think they got all the “important” ships and people out of the way and only lower-ranking, working-class people died in that attack?
Jerry, it’s spelled Carlisle group. The Freemason quote is also a bit off. Bush I and II did, however, get sworn in on Freemason Bibles, which is an Anglican Sect (AKA “Organized Crime”).
Their lineage traces back to British Royalty, hence their high Freemason status.
Skull & Bones at Yale is also a factor in their enormous amount of power. It comes from the German Illuminati movement, which was driven underground in the 18th century. They in the business of (in)breeding names.
See if you can find a roster of members, and notice how many presidential names you find. Barbara Bush descended from Franklin Pierce.
The weapons of mass destruction WERE there; they just can’t figure out where they went. They gave them the weapons in 1982.
And guess which powermad CIA man was stationed in Texas in November of 1963. Somebody they couldn’t shoot, because his daddy was more powerful than Joe Kennedy.
Read.
Just read Sirens of Titan and it’ll all make sense. Thanks Kurt, your stories are awesome.
Charlie, glad to see somebody out there knows their stuff when it comes to secret societies. I’ve heard annuit coeptis translated many different ways. Some sources say it means “the king sees”, hence the all-seeing eye. Is that George HW Bush you’re referring to who was stationed in Texas, or George Jr? I didn’t know that, very interesting. I’d be proud if you checked out my web page, which deals a lot with this sort of thing. www.thisiswhoweare.com
Jim, your tinfoil hat remark shows how much all the media disinformation and propaganda has influenced your thinking. Our country was founded on questioning the word of authority, dissent, and rebellion. It’s nice to see you have your American flag blinders on.
Mr. Vonnegut,
Ignore the “smug intellects” remarks, and rejoice there are still free thinking “lefties” left in America…for now at least.
Brilliant as always Vonnegut!
The sharing of the name Clement by Twain and your grandfather, must have affected your gene pool…at least psychologically, thus explaining your delightful humerous slanted perspective.
Thanks for all your wonderful imaginative works in YOUR lifetime, it has enriched mine.
Good Vonnegut. Maybe 80, but still thinking clearly.
Charlie et al;
In your world of secret societies, I am “them”. In your paranoia you are the steaks on the table by choice and consent.
from “Operations Research Technical Manual TM-SW7905.1”
“Energy
Energy is recognized as the key to all activity on earth. Natural science is the study of the sources and control of natural energy, and social science, theoretically expressed as economics, is the study of the sources and control of social energy. Both are bookkeeping systems: mathematics. Therefore, mathematics is the primary energy science. And the bookkeeper can be king if the public can be kept ignorant of the methodology of the bookkeeping.
All science is merely a means to an end. The means is knowledge. The end is control. Beyond this remains only one issue: Who will be the beneficiary?
In 1954 this was the issue of primary concern. Although the so-called “moral issues” were raised, in view of the law of natural selection it was agreed that a nation or world of people who will not use their intelligence are no better than animals who do not have intelligence. Such people are beasts of burden and steaks on the table by choice and consent.”
Do you see it now? We had to discern the identity of the beneficiary. As any good Trustee (“public trust”; Article VI Constitution) would.
“Such a writing must be secured from public scrutiny. Otherwise, it might be recognized as a technically formal declaration of domestic war.”
I too can play the Operations Research Technical Manual TM-SW7905.1 game.
Ever heard of a concept used in the intelligence community called “insight?” If you’re “them,” surely you’ve slung it around yourself from time to time.
Maybe it’s time you checked in on that other hand. Like any good trustee (drone), you’ve been led to believe that it is you who are in the know.
My friend, “they” won’t be too happy about your declaration of war. Particularly from some work of fiction such as “Operations Research Technical Manual TM-SW7905.1”
Maybe you should take a page from that Texas CIA man’s book and learn the value of silence.
Considered that maybe it is I who am “them?”
Message to Claud E. Dutro: David Merrill has forfeited his membership.
Membership?
I guess that is an “us” and “them” thing.
Jerry, I went to your site and read the artice on Israeli mass graves. It’s a little old, April 10,2002. Any updates? How many were really buried in those mass graves? Hundreds, thousands?
No, it’s a you thing. Tell them Charlie sends his regards.
Jim, thanks for taking the time to check out my web page. Yes, the article on mass graves in Israel is old. I usually try to find stuff more current than that. What intrigued me about it though was Israel trying to cover up their war crimes. I think that speaks to what is going on now with all the mass graves being found in Afghanistan and Iraq. I’ll look for some updates. I add links to the page every few days. As you can see the site is not a “conspiracy theory” site per se. I gather news links from various credible sources, links to stories that are most often buried in the news-“hidden in plain sight”. I do this not because I hate our country; on the contrary, I love it very much. But I believe in what Edward Abbey said. To wit: “A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.” If you have any suggestions or comments on the page, feel free to email me.
Mr. Vonnegut,
C.S. Lewis, Sir Thomas Malory, J.D. Salinger, You, Richard Brautigan, Robert Pirsig, Black Elk (“Black Elk Speaks”), Hermann Hesse, James Redfield, Mark Twain, Paulo Coelo, Kenneth Kraft, the Buddha, and Philip Kapleau have been my milestones (in roughly chronological order). Thank you.
America is rich. The number 1 heath problem in America is obesity. The rest of the world is insanely poor. Nearly 2 billion people in the world do not have adequate water. Nearly 1 billion are malnourished.
Let’s make the rest of the world like us! This doesn’t work as America is dependent on cheap labor. We MUST exploit the poor people of the world to live in excess. We live in excess at the expense of the poor people in the world.
Most Americans are ignorant of this. Many don’t know. Many refuse to face the reality of the world.
When you defend the current American way of life, what are you defending?
And the obvious solution is: Stop consuming to excess. Don’t buy what you don’t need. Halve the military budget. Build housing for the homeless, supply the hungry with food, provide free education and healthcare to those who want it. Require all citizens to spend one year with the Peace Corps in a third world country helping deliver relief supplies, administering medicine, or teaching.
Help everyone reach a basic, sustainable, comforatble standard of living. Then you can go and get super rich if you want.
If America was doing this do you think that people would try to kill us?
Jim, I did some research on those mass graves in Jenin. Unfortunately no clear understanding was forthcoming, since the number of bodies found jumps from 45 through 900. Powell made a trip out there and was quoted as saying: “I see no evidence of mass graves.” Somehow this vile act got shuffled around and buried, just like what really happened in Waco, TX during that fateful April morning. Remember how that FBI audio tape was found? The special agent in charge gave permision to “fire pyrotechnic munitions”. This story was in the news briefly in 1999. Janet Reno was questioned. Then it just sort of went away. If anyone out there can help me to know more about Jenin, and what happened with those mass graves, please let me know.
Kurt Vonnegut is one of the most intelligent, eloquent writers in our time, thoughtfully expressing the viewpoint of millions. Thank you Mr. Vonnegut.
Asi es la vida si no cambiamos las circumnstancias
An excellent piece of work; I’m reminded- in a deeply worrisome resonance- of the US president from the film adaptation of “Harrison Bergeron”.
“You gotta show dese pissants dey can’t screw wid youse!”- well, maybe. Personally I don’t believe that violence- or the threat of violence, or economic violence- will ever change anything, other than our perception at a grassroots level.
We’re well on our way to losing all respect for our governments, UK and US.
Ahhh, the High Pharisee of Self Defeatism & Chonic Failurism
expounds yet again, on what it means to be a DemoLoser Socialist.
One might go one step further and say that the US and the UK are one government, and they have absolutely no respect for their citizens.
Hari, go have yourself another helping of Freedom Fries, stick an American Flag on your car antenna, and keep on demonstrating your ignorance: it’s your calling.
Hey J Redmond, just had a question for you. If the governments in the U.S. and U.K. have no respect for their citizens why is the flow of refugees all from enlightened countries here and not from here to say France or Iraq?
In fact, if we’re so repressive why would you stick around?
Because I love this country dearly and want it back. The promise of Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness, and Government For the People and By the People has been very badly broken - sometimes gradually, sometimes not - over the past five decades. Try and name one country that hasn’t suffered from the cruel effects of US and British Colonialism.
J Redmond,
I appreciate the sentiment but I think the whole Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness thing was welched on with the slaughter of eighty million Native Americans that was ongoing at the time. Slavery too.
P.S. For an example of more recent American imperialist rants, the writings of Theodore Roosevelt serve pretty well. Hitler much admired him. It is easy to see why.
P.P.S. For an example of very recent American imperialist rants, here’s my favourite by the current “President”:
“History will be written only by us”
I presume he’s not talking about the other six billion people on the planet.
Charlie, it’s spelled Carlyle Group. Check out this link. linkthing.com/screed/carlyle_group_cluster.html
J Redmond, You are right. This isn’t our country anymore, hasn’t been since the signing of the National Security Act in 1947. In fact, I don’t think it was ever ours to begin with. Of the 56 signatures on the Declaration of Independence, 50 were known Freemasons. Washington himself was the head of his Alexandrian lodge. The Masons evolved from the Knights Templar, who started out as 9 French crusaders around 1000 A.D. In 1307 AD the King of France convinced Pope Clement V to support him in hunting down and killing the Templars. Some of them escaped to Scotland where they took on the name Scottish Rite of Freemasonry. By the way, the order for the Templars’ extermination was issued on Friday the 13th. That’s why it is still considered an unlucky day. This is not some conspiracy theory. This is historical fact. These people have been in power for a thousand years, and have the richest families and the most powerful military in the world behind them.
Dear Kurt,
I only wish there were more people such as you! Well done.
Keith
http://www.carlylegroup.com/eng/index.html
Jerry, I stand corrected. There are, in fact, two Carlisle/Carlyle Groups. I apologize for correcting you. That was arrogant of me. Our Royalty has been removed from the list, but Ex-Prime Minister John Major is stilll advertised.
But Charlie isn’t spelled Charlie; it’s spelled Charley! Ha!
You are also correct about the history of Masonry. The Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite and the Grand York Rite are the two upper sides of the triangle.
The title “Sublime Prince of the Royal Secret” is commonly applied to the central figure, though there are variations. In the middle, toward the top, below the Eye, resides the Royal Crest of Great Britain.
Some say the 9 French Crusaders were the illegitimate descendents of Christ.
There are two kinds of Masons: Operative and Speculative.
The majority of Masons are the harmless, Speculative ones. They do, in fact, operate as a charitable organization, as they claim.
The Operatives are the ones that spawn the conspiracy theories, with their enormous wealth and power.
Speculatives are commonly led to believe they know “The Royal Secret,” but there are many layers.
The Temple of Solomon is central in their ideology. Some Freemason Bibles come with a ledger, detailing the cost of the materials, as well as plans for the rebuilding of the temple (some disagree on the time, but it is generally assumed to be the end of the world).
The King James Version is, in fact, written in Masonic code. You will need to study Masonic texts if you want to understand the meanings hidden within. The Torah, the Talmud, and the Koran have also been translated in England with Masonic codes, as the Masons claim ownership of Monotheism.
New York Governor Pataki announced his joining the Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite at the same time he expressed an interest in the 2008 candidacy. Again, not a conspiracy theory, just a fact.
The Catholic church considers this an excommunicable offense, and he is a Catholic.
www.nymasons.org
The Masons didn’t have as much power over the American people back in the 18th and 19th centuries as they do today, despite their stations in government.
This is partially due to the event I vaguely mentioned before. And one man’s ability to blackmail the most powerful people in the world.
Don’t get your hopes up about trying to stop the Masons or getting people to believe you. Be safe, be well.
Hey J, name one country that’s better off now than they were when the British were still in charge. It’s been 40+ years since most colonies threw off the cruel yoke of the Brits. Are they a paradise yet? Or are they bust killing each other with machetes?
As far as Mics comments about 80 million Native Americans, please. Where do you get your numbers, the DNC?
bust = busy
Again, wingnuts, with their ridiculous talk-radio caricature of liberalism, can’t keep their mouths shut, continuing to mistake this backward step as a permanent state. All of the old clich
If you say so Alric. Yeah Germany is a great place to work, as long as you’re not one of the 11% unemployed.
Canada’s socialized medicine works great, as long as you don’t get sick. How many Canadians come here for surgery? A lot. How many Americans go up there for care? I haven’t heard of any.
As far as stingy and greedy, you’re wrong. Americans are the most generous people on the planet.
As far as the rest of the “civilized world” how about some concrete examples? France? How’s that Ivory Coast invasion going? Don’t recall the U.N. resolution approving that one. England? Great gun control, too bad they have higher crime than the U.S. now.
test
Pete, you have nothing but the most banal of ideas about the United States, and I’ll do my best to disabuse you of them.
First, Canadians who come here for any sort of health care are very, very few. As for how many U. S. citizens go north, quite a few go to Canada for cheap medicine, enough in fact that pharmaceutical companies have lobbied Congress to address the problem. And that’s not just some propaganda put out by liberals. This has been discussed everywhere.
About Germany’s unemployment rate, 11% or 6%, what is really the difference to the people unemployed? Well, there is a difference. In Germany, the unemployed have a better quality of life than the low wage earners in the United States. The social contract in Germany is written to benefit all the people, that they share the benefits of work. Here, one group is viewed as the labor resources for another, much smaller group.
Our generosity: Look into it. You’re wrong.
Well done, again, Mr. Vonnegut.
Impeach W.
Carol Schiff Peters
I think it’s fantastic and well articulated. you do need to examine your font size on the page
though
Alric, if you can wait 20+ weeks in some cases for surgery, Canada is great. If you’ve got cancer, I don’t think you want to wait for surgery.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-bandow011503.asp
As the above article shows, many people come down here for care, the provinces send them. This doesn’t include the wealthier Canadians who don’t wait for the province to get around to it and just come down on their own.
As far as driving across the border to save a few bucks on pills, that has more to do with our higher litigation costs than anything.
I’m glad Germany’s 11% unemployment rate doesn’t bother you. Those “generous” benefits you are so proud of involve the government taxing workers at 50% or more and giving it to the unemployed. Is this what you mean by all the people sharing the benefits of work? Why stop at 11% unemployment? Would 20% be ok? As long as everyone can share the benefits of work. Can I share the benefits of your work? Could you just send me a check?
The American generosity I referred to was our private generosity. I don’t consider government spending to be generosity.
Anyone who agree with your views
totally SUCK!!!
Get your history right!!!
How does democracy win the country back? Does “corporation” appear in the constitution? And shouldn’t there be a level of concern for the violence waged upon the underclasses in every society?
Hold on… my Hummer is double parked.
What was I saying?
I do not read english so well, but I know enough to enjoy the beauty and the truth of this article.
I’m from Nicaragua. In the 80
I have contacted numerous local, state, fed agencies due to what I have discovered by ‘accident’ - words / names / fronts along the hi-tech highway. Shock and awe / candid camera/ money says it all! I will continue to contact members of VPF and Artists United to Win Without War ... amazing ‘links’ about who appears to be who with their net identity. Very relative to the ‘Images of war ’ ... and the ‘war games’ written years ago .....
Dom Mastroserio LI 5/10/03 - I need to talk to you!!
Eugenio, it wasn’t your elevator free buildings that were the threat, but your Communist dictator leadership. I guess there is no need for you to thanks us for pressuring Ortega to hold elections.
That “argument”, as you call it, killed millions of its own people in Russia, China, Cambodia and Nicaragua.
You’re welcome.
Jim, tell that to the millions of kids, women and innocents men from Iraq, Panama, Grenada, Chile, Nicaragua, Mexico, El Salvador, Vietnam, I think I better stop naming countries because I could name almost any country in the world, who died because the US administrations where trying to save us without asking them. But I think any administration have taken as a big thank, a lot of territory from Mexico, oil from Irak, etc, etc.
For those of you who still think the US is trying to liberate Iraq, you’re in for a wake up call. Check out this yahoo news link. The Iraqi people are calling US presence an “occupation”.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u= /nm/20030602/ts_nm/iraq_army_dc
Eugenio, if the Vietnamese didn’t want to be saved, why did so many climb into rickety boats once the Communists took over?
Ask anyone in Poland or Czech Republic or Latvia or Estonia if they wanted to be saved from the Soviets.
What about the millions killed in China or Russia, would they have asked us to save them, or did they prefer a mass grave?
You can always vote Ortega back into office.
Great thinking & writing. I hesitate to call the userpers inhabiting the governing house should be grouped with other, more human people as “conservative”. I think they deserve their own name.
If you’d like, e mail me, I’ll send you the name or you could just use their own name suggestion, “evil-doers”.
Great thinking & writing. I hesitate to call the userpers inhabiting the governing house should be grouped with other, more human people as “conservative”. I think they deserve their own name.
If you’d like, e mail me, I’ll send you the name or you could just use their own name suggestion, “evil-doers”.
Dear Mr Vonnegut,
It is a great relief to find that there is still some political discussion taking place over the “Pond”. In Scotland we have deer, haggis, heather, highland dancing, missile subs and NSA listening posts, but we do not have the vote when the US elections come around, despite our foreign policy being practically dictated by the US, and our economy being half tied to yours. We rely on “Free Thinkers” in the US. We see a huge amount of US tv and literature here, and it looks like America is the saviour of the world, the protector of democracy and freedom. Nonsense, it would seem (ask Iraqi Civilians), but few even here (where we used to return commie members of parliament!) seem to want that illusion punctured. W may have succeeded. The UK is always to the left of the US politically and we find the endless flag-waving and pushing of the patriotism buttons mindless, dogmatic and terrifying. Sure, we’re no angels (ask India, Pakistan, most of Africa, China, etc etc) but at least we allow discussion without slinging names, casting aspersions on a person’s patriotism, and suppressing minority opinions. On the subject of literature, I love your books. I haven’t read all of them, but most. The truth should be clear and simple, and you shame every verbose page-filler with your crystal statement and beautiful characters. I have many friends who feel that they love you, although they’ve never met you. A prediction: another invasion (Iran, Yemen, Syria, Libya, N Korea?) more Bread and Circuses, and a second term. Unless America once again hearkens to Abraham Lincoln and Kurt Vonnegut.
Jon from Twin Falls,
As though us “lefties” were never attacked by the right wing with names like, “Commie”, “America-hating”, “fucking idiots”, blah blah blah.
I should cut you some slack—You are, after all, from Twin Falls, where narrow-minded right-wing religious thinking says anyone who is Catholic, or tolerant of diversity, or thinks for themselves or chooses not to marry are all going against the vengeful God who will smite them for their ways.
You know what is as bad as fundamental Islamic ideology? Right-wing Christian conservatism.
At age 18 I haven’t seen all that much, but what I have gleaned I feel to be quite important. I have seen the dissappearance of cold war paranoia and the beauty and safety and progressiveness of the 90s. The 90’s were a really nice time to be a child and teenager, the 90’s were perfect (other than the relentless torture I experienced from hateful childrenmostly at church but Im a better person for it)
Because I was young I believed that people had become more rational and that war and paranoia would probably never return in my lifetime. Naive. There are always those out there that wish to use other people’s fears for there own personal success. Sick bastards. Thats what has happened. Bush fumbles his way through 8 months in office destroying our budget surplus and tragedy strikes and he decides to USE it. I was shocked at the outcome of September 11th… The attacks themselves were from criminals not belligerant nations, how on earth can you fight wars in that name? . But ambitious Mr. Bush stepped up and used the scared and vulnerable people and preyed on those weaknesses in order to gain their loyalty, and thus, advance his own agenda (a lot like what hitler did in the early thirties). . Too many people are scared or already conservative. (being from texas my whole family but me is right wing and i often feel quite isolated. Nevertheless, I was never able to find an iota of intelligence or, more importantly, sense or responsibility in the right). Those bastards who put out all of the fear inducing propaganda must be sociopaths or something because they obviously have no conscience. But alas, people are now asking where Iraq’s WMDs are. Finally. Of course we know there are none and never were. Iraq is a third world country whose economy was utterly dependent on oil but with the embargo NO ONE was buying. How oh how would they raise revenue to build these scary machines and such that could kill, or even worse, destroy the american consumerism lifestyle that spawns the hate we have in our souls that we enjoy so much. So what did Iraq do to get this money??? Sell sand??? Paranoia is contemptable, there is no logic in it. Maybe Americans will see that one day. Bush manipulated the american people in a heinous way. He lied to all of us. People need to scream that everyday. Yell it! Scream the truth! No one is telling the truth! The truth is the only thing that can set us free from this reign of terror…
I discovered your article in The Progressive. I enjoy reading your articles. It is refreshing to know that there are still true journalist.
You’ve hit the nail right on the head. We have to continue to speak out.
Thank you for your time.
There appears to be a misunderstanding as to what a conservative is these days. The conservative philosophy is not what is currently being passed off as such. There is a huge gulf between neo-conservatism and conservatism in the classical sense. I consider myself a conservative and believe the current administration has hijacked the conservative voice in America.
Hilda- get your grammar right!!!
Lana- You make more sense than most “supposed” adults I come across.
To Laurie Harrington: Sorry I’ve not had the opportunity to contribute to this site of late. Life in our political climate has caught me up in a seemingly unending mission of research and work. I’ve been making the internet rounds these past few days once again and was surprised to find a few of these still ongoing personal feuds alive and kicking though not yet free of the personal vituperations and vitriol spitting out mostly from the biased and intolerant of all those who are politically and psychologically frozen. If you still wish to contact me, just click onto my name, (highlightened in red), and I’d be glad to communicate with you should you come round full circle back to this site. Mr. Vonnegut, I just re-read, “Deadeye Dick”, and am still smiling. Next time I contribute, if you don’t mind, I’d like to post a fairly comprehensive bibliography of your novels. Maybe some of my fellow contributors to this site will glean a bit of healthy, “Vonnegutism”, should they deign to crack a volume or ten.
Well, I see no reason, legal or otherwise, why I shouldn’t present a bibliographical list of the books Mr. Vonnegut has authored. It’s not comprehensive but pretty much includes most of his major work…to the extent to which I’m aware.
Do yourselves a favor, folks-peruse as many as you can. Winter’s on it’s way so shut that hypno-tube off and you will be treating yourselves to some of the best contemporary literature extant.
1-Player Piano
2-The Sirens Of Titan
3-Cat’s Cradle
4-Mother Night
5-God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater
6-Welcome To The Monkey House
7-Slaughterhouse Five
8-Slapstick
9-Happy Birthday, Wanda June
10-Wampeters, Foma, & Granfalloons
11-Breakfast Of Champions
12-Jailbird
13-Palm Sunday
14-Galapagos
15-Deadeye Dick
Actually, these are titles I’ve either owned and lost or borrowed and still possess, though I know where only two actually are around my house. Not any reflection on Kurt Vonnegut-just a revelatory confession about myself. Amen
It never ceases to amaze me how quick some people are to believe anything the government releases to the press. As long as it was on TV or in the paper, it must be true. And, strange to say, some peoples’ entire world views are shaped by these two highly questionable institutions, the media and the government. And yet, the briefest historical inquiry will suffice to demonstrate that both government and press have consistently mis-informed the people, or told them outright lies in the pursuit of policies which were deemed “too important” to entrust the masses with anything approaching the truth about them. And now we have “grown ups” discussing the dangers of Sadaam and Osama, as if these two sinister characters just showed up out of nowhere, with no history behind them. The moral of the story would seem to be: if you relegate yourself to the role of passive recipient of information or “history”, then you are not likely to have anything approaching the whole story.
So, here I am, in the middle of nowhere in the middle of nowhere…. (yes, that was an intended pun from the Dept. of Redundancy Dept.) And it seems to me that there are a lot of people out there who don’t seem to get along…. (duh) Now, I would consider myself to the left of the political spectrum…. I think G.W. Bush is a liar and a cheat… and things will only get worse with the advent of electronic, un-recountable voting machines….. But I also take the time to read view points form both sides of the story…... Has anyone from the left ever checked out www.boortz.com or www.drudgereport.com ?? The really, REALLY silly part about it all, is that the right seems to say that “______” is controlled by the left, while at the same time, the left says that “______” is controlled by the right…... Has anyone ever thought to think that maybe your just upset that your not hearing what you want to hear??
I know that I’ll probably get flamed… and that’s ok, and if you really, really want to have a grown-up discussion…. Either from the left or the right…. just send me an email…. who wants a thousand and two shaved monkeys reading all our thoughts anyways??
ah yes, a brief history lesson involving the states’ invasion of Mexico. Thanks Mr. Vonnegut. This littel gem just added to the sheer pleasure of reading your work.
I grew up in the seventies reading Kurt Vonnegut and Frank Herbert while feeling that the world was a comforting and reassuring place. I imagined as a child that the world would evolve into a spectacular Eden. Gone was the death penalty that I even as a kid found as anachronistic as slavery. We now had good laws to protect endangered species and our environment. My biggest fear then was total nuclear devestation. No small thing but who knew it would become this instead? A painfully slow descent into corporate hegemony. Mr. Vonnegut’s work helped create a prophecy of hope for my generation. Hope that miniature chinese people can conquer outer space more efficiently all the way to the benefits of brushing your teeth with hot water. Kurt, at 80 you’re still a madman and a prophet. Solopism rules.
good good good good site
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