I Love You, Madame Librarian

This article is a merely a silly diatribe. I am very disappointed with the lack of anything that i can sink my cognitive teeth in.

The election in Florda rigged? By virtually all recouning methods, Bush won. Time to get over the close call and move on!

The US feared and hated as the Nazis? Did the Nazis remove brutal dictators and spend billons of marks rebuilding the terrorized country?

The US dehumanizing millons of people? Where? If this is aimed at Iraq, it misses the mark by a lightyear!

Linking Bush to Hitler via Christianity? Pure sleaze.

All the resources (money) has been taken by “psychopathic personalities”?

Is this really meant to be a serious article?

(BTW - i am a fan of the wonderful fiction written by KV. Welcome to the Monkey House was terrific. Perhaps he should stick to what he knows best, fiction)

ken,

you’re misinformed concerning the FL recount--take a look at <http://mediamatters.org/items/200407200008> under the “O’Reilly Lied” article.

and you’re ignoring countless U.S. policies around the world which are indeed dehumanizing to native populations, including Iraq.  wouldn’t you call the death of @10,000 (conservative estimate) innocent civilians in Iraq through our use of military force dehumanizing?

Ken,

We should move on from the Florida elections the same way the rethuglicans should move on from the Clinton administration as the source of all our current problems. 

And actually there are a lot of connections between Bush & Hitler namely through his grandpappy - look it up.

People like Ken above really do believe anything you tell them. Ken was raised in an average household where sports heroes were deified and free thinking villified. In Ken’s house or leaders always have the best of intentions and the only way to be patriotic is to trust what our leaders tell us. In Ken’s house our founding fathers were terribly unpatriotic. Look at the way they dissented and the treason they were guilty of in declaring independence from their own county, England! And all over taxes on tea and stamps, which us patriots would never put up with! We the people are about as represented as our founding fathers ever were in the English government. That said, none of that may be true about Ken’s home, but it might as well be. By flawed recountng methods utilized in Florida, Bsh did win. By common sense and discretion Bush won the state of Florida like Hitler won WWII… he DIDN’T! Uh-oh, another Bush/Hitler refference. If you need more solid reasoning to link Bush to Hitler check out the amount of power that Bush siezed in the passing of the patriot act, which was never even read by congress before it was passed. More power for Bush than Hitler initially took for himself. His grandaddy made money off the holocaust too, look it up. From the nazi’s to the Saudis the Bush family loves to make low friends in high places. Just because your president calls himself a Christian, doesn’t mean that he acts like one. Even God implores you to check the person out that comes saying that he knows him. Even the devil was once thought beautiful in heaven, right? Even the devil can quote scripture for his own purpose. In the long run our occupation of Iraq has aided terorism and given the Islamic world more of a reason to be distrustful of us and hate us. We removed a brutal dictator only to bring civil unrest to peole whose lives, for the most part, had been fairly stable. We removed a dictator and imposed democracy on a country and people who obviously would rather have a theocracy, and now we’re frustrated that they don’t particularly want the ‘gift’ we’ve given them. The completely un-American and undemocratic practices that have been allowed by the American people during Bush’s fradulent presidency are unacceptable. It has gotten to the point where documenting and complaining about the goings-on of this adminstration could keep a million monkeys typing for a million years, and nothing as respectable or beautiful as Shakespeare would ever be produced! So if the respectable Mr. Vonnegut seems frustrated and ready to give up on the human race Ken, you may blame yourself and others like you. You sir, are in the business of sleaze.

Please excuse the typos and misspellings, I sometimes forget to spell-check when I’m outraged.

david -

Throughout the Florida election controversy, the focus was on “undervotes"--ballots which were disqualified because the voter had not properly indicated a candidate, such as by punching out a small piece of paper on the paper ballot. The recounts attempted to discern voter intentions from improperly-marked ballots. Thus, if a ballot had a “hanging chad,” a recount official might decide that the voter intended to vote for the candidate, but failed to properly punch out the chad; so the recounter would award the candidate a vote from the “spoiled” ballot. Gore was seeking additional recounts only of undervotes. The only scenario by which Gore would have won Florida would have involved recounts of “overvotes"--ballots which were spoiled because the voter voted for more than one candidate (such as by marking two names, or by punching out two chads). Most of the overvotes which were recoverable were those on which the voter had punched out a chad (or made a check mark) and had also written the candidate’s name on the write-in line. Gore’s lawsuits never sought a recount of overvotes, so even if the Supreme Court had allowed a Florida recount to continue past the legal deadline, Bush still would have won the additional recount which Gore sought.

I find the death of any innocent to be a trajedy. When evaluating our actions in Iraq i have to wonder - how many innocent Iraqis would have died if we did not intervene? (Not to mention that many of the civilians that did die - and worse yet continue to die - are being killed by thugs in Iraq!).

Ken, it was not only spoiled votes, which by happened to all be in poor mainly democratic areas, there were thousands who were denied a vote because they were disenfranchised through faulty “lists of felons barred from voting”. Then there were many other things including alleged harrassment of black voters by police. You may be right on the count of actual votes accepted, however there is no doubt the election was stolen.
Saddam had been effectively neutralized by coalition forces “no fly zone” from doing much in the kurdish areas or the southern areas of his country. Certainly he might torture and kill those brave enough to oppose him, but it is highly unlikely it would come to the 10,000 or more that we have killed, along wth maybe ten times that many mained or wounded, and it certainly would not have included a thousand Americans killed and many more wounded. Furthermore, the killing goes on. Our invasion has not turned iraq into a democracy, it has turned it into an anarchistic jungle. I, for one, would love to see a true democracy there, but the way things are going, I just cannot see it happen. Why, we haven’t even pacified Afghanistan, let alone Iraq. How much better it would have been to do a proper job in Afghanistan and leave Iraq alone.

Ryan -

Were we neighbours growing up? Or did you just make up all that stuff? I can definitely see you are from the Moore school of “journalism”. LOL.

Maybe you missed the part where I said none of that may be true, but it might as well be, the way you think and talk. I can see you’re from the Bush school of self-dillusion.

You aren’t clever Ken.

Ryan - Do you talk the same way you write? In my neck of the woods, people discuss differences of opinions, rather than set up straw men and knock them down. Its more fun and more informative.

(If i wrote like you, i could say maybe you sodomize little children. Sure it might not be true, but it could be. . . lol)

Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud. - Sophocles

Bush lost. If he had an ounce of integrity, he would have admitted it and stepped aside.

Chris -

My Palinstinine friends told me that sanctions were killing tens of thousands of Iraqis every year, mostly children. This was due to lack of basic resources; clean water, food and medicine.

Perhaps it was merely propaganda?

Cid - your conclusion is based on what? In my opinion, the vote was very close and could have gone either way. Would you say that Gore should have stepped aside if he squeaked through? If not, why not?

Ken:
If the things you write were true, what in the world are you waiting to go to Sudan?, Be serious, please.

Ken laughs at his own ‘jokes’ He fancies himself very clever. When he can’t properly or correctly defend his views, as they are undefendable, he sits back with an air of cockyness, smles to himself and laughs at his own ‘clever’ little quips. I’m not being over-imaginative, that’s essentially the way you write and respond.

Ryan - you seem to know me so very well. I really can’t fathom how. . . Perhaps you should stick to the issues, rather than personal attacks? Assuming you have something to say.

Jorge - Sudan is a huge tragedy! I note that the *US* (where is France on this?) is pushing for a solution there. I further note that Sudan sits on the UN commission of Human Rights (!!!) which has done virtually nothing to right this horrible situation!

Makes one wonder if the UN is even worth having. . .

Hi All:

Of all of the comments I’ve read after Mr. V’s poignant remarks, one can’t help notice that we are all dependent on what we are told about our current situation. In the old days, there were these reasonably trustworthy persons--like our founding fathers--who guided this newly formed democracy for about a generation ending, let’s say with the War of 1812. Success was granted them by a providence that we rarely reference in these times. (I speak as a mulatto decendent of slaves and masters.) Our reliance upon what we are told must be tempered by a deep abiding faith that can only come from experience; personal experience. I am about as much an information and news junkie as most of you (surely) are. And I have opinions. But what I give you right now is really an admonition to pay attention to what the heart says. Whose heart. Well, if not your own first, try the person(s) whom you trust most in your life. If you can not think of who they are, forget about Bush, Kerry and Vonnegut. Find an accessible mentor. Learn the ways of Faith, Heart, and Heaven. One sustains us from day to day. The next gives form and substance to our temporal life and home--this planet earth. And heaven is, well, our final destination. No one has seen it; but it is our raison d’etre, a constant yearning inside of you. All I’m saying is “don’t snuff out that yearning with bitter arguments over the evil that men do. Maturity dictates that we approach problems for the sole purpose of solving them. If I rant to my 5th grade daughter about our nations’s problems, her thoughts will still revert (after the disturbance) to whether daddy can take care of things. So, Mr. V, what do we tell our young. Tell them that faith, hope and love, these abide, but the greatest of all is love.

I love you Ken, because you have a problem with the way I write. You not only tell me about it, but you compare me to Micael Moore and then laugh at your own joke. I respond to your remark, and then suddenly I can’t “stick to the issues”. I adressed the issues, particularly the issues you have with Mr. Vonnegut. Your original response contained no facts or anything remotely similar to back your claims. Therefore, you made it personal, accusing Mr. Vonnegut of ‘sleaze’. I felt no need to stick to any issues since you yourself only felt it necessary to post your rotten opinions. “The US dehumanizing millons of people? Where? If this is aimed at Iraq, it misses the mark by a lightyear! “ You must be pretty in love with yourself to imagine that you’re right just because yo say you are.

Since France is such a weak, cowardly country, why do your sort insist on making a big deal of their non-action? Why waste your time stroking your own ego? It obviosly doesn’t matter wha France thinks or does, right?

Ken is funny.

Ken, so according to you, why should we even wait for UN approval regarding Sudan? According to your school of thought, we should just attack Sudan and kill everybody, in order to liberate them, with or without approval. Well, actually, according to the Bush school of thought, the best way to retaliate against the genocides in Sudan would be to attack, say.....Canada? Sudan-Canada, Afghanistan-Iraq.......Same difference!

Hooray for librarians, hooray for Kurt.  Though I am sometimes tempted to throw in my towel and let the United States besmirch its good name, a name that once held people to a better standard, I am so glad to live in a country where an article like this can be both published and debated among rational, opinionated people without fear of censure… for the time being, anyway.  Oh the slippery slope that entraps us all if we are not careful…

Shane and Ryan - i am rather disappointed with your inability to understand the world around you. Attack Sudan and kill everybody? My sort?

I was hoping for an intelligent responses (sigh). I mostly got personal attacks (rather silly ones at that!) and insane rhetoric (genocide in Sudan --> attack Canada). A sad day for the thinking left indeed.

Anyway, i wish both of you well. You will understand if i don’t bother to respond to either of your “posts” anymore (unless they have something of substance).

Fiona - well said!

It says something unfortunate about the state of the left that I have to preface my remarks by saying I didn’t and won’t vote for Bush, but that is beside the point. This column was absurd. That Bush would be likened to Hitler by the world’s masses says more about the forgetfulness of humans—and perhaps the author—than the failure of American leadership. I think we can all agree that the sins of a bumbling, incompetent fool and those of history’s most calculating, evil mind are more than a little different. So even if the author’s unsupported statement about world’s perception of the U.S. relative to National Socialism is true, which I doubt, why use the position of the uninformed as a weapon against Bush, especially when so many more accurate and effective cudgels are available?

I guess the author knows his audience, if posters here are any indication. The brickbats being tossed at poor Ken are more depressing than Vonnegut’s apparent slide into old-foolery. Instead of discussing the points he raises—points where most reasonable people would say reasonable people can disagree --you’ve all turned loons.

And a word to Ryan: rhetorical traps only work when they’re subtle. Your illogic is easily ignored by those you are trying to ensnare.

ken,

okay, agree to disagree regarding the florida debacle--there are so many “what if” scenarios that it was and is an unsolvable mess (though i think most of those fall in favor of gore as victor).

in terms of our actions in iraq, your query/argument relies on yet another ‘what if,” mainly how many innocents would have been killed by saddam had we not invaded and occupied.  an important consideration to be sure, but it doesn’t really touch the heart of the matter because bush’s justifications for going to war were almost exclusively related to protecting the u.s. against an imminent threat (take a look at <http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0804-11.htm>. only after bush found massive resistance to his policy of strike first, justify later did he begin to talk in terms of, oh by the way, we could also stop saddam’s murdering ways.

can you honestly deny, if only to yourself, the reason that we (the u.s.) are only passively talking about dealing with the genocide in sudan is that we have no large economic interest there?

Ken…

You started your first post here with “I am very disappointed with the lack of anything that i can sink my cognitive teeth in.” If that’s true, why did you bother to attack Mr. Vonnegut’s opinions the way you did?  If there was nothing worth talking about, why did you bother to talk about it?

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinions.  But, understand that what makes this country so great is the fact that the rest of us are entitle to our opinions as well.

Don’t try to play Bill O’Reilly by cutting people off and mocking them.  You’re not clever, and you don’t even come off as educated.  There is a lot of evidence to back up Mr. Vonnegut’s opinions.  I suggest you get off your high horse and get over yourself long enough to actually learn about the world you’re living in.  Because it’s not as simple as you’re trying to make it.

matt,

so every post to ken has been illogical and unreasonable ("you’ve all turned to loons")?  or were you referring just to some of the more obvious culprits?

Laura - Do you (or can any reasonable person) believe the election in FL was “rigged”? The fact is that it was close, and could have gone either way. That does not seem to meet the criteria of “rigged” to me.

Is the US feared and hated as the Nazis? Where are our death camps? Have we committed genocide. One of the arguments that is used against Bush (rightfully so, in my opinion) is that we are spending far too much money *rebuilding* Iraq.

The US dehumanizing millons of people? Maybe, but i don’t know what KV means by this.

Linking Bush to Hitler via Christianity? I still believe this is a reprehensible statement. I wonder if Jews that suffered under Hitler would see the comparison?

As for me mocking others, perhaps you can cite examples? Or better yet, perhaps you can attempt to justify the KV points i have posted?

Have a great weekend.

I find it interesting that any comparison of the Bush administration to Hitler or fascism would be dismissed outright.  Power is concentrated in the hands of a few powerful men (moreso if Ashcroft, Cheney and Rumsfeld have their way), dissent is squelched by the Secret Service on orders from the administration (not to mention the absurd protest ‘cage’ at the DNC in Boston - for SHAME!), books are kept from the public (the Justice Department’s recall from depository libraries of five documents concerning return of seized property used in federal investigations), and the maimnstream media is complicit through its lack of exercising a critical eye.

No, the administration hasn’t committed genocide, but they have suspended Constitutional rights to persons of certain ethnicities.  They have dismissed the accords of Geneva Convention for “security” reasons.

The current administration is one of the most frightening administrations to ever control this country.  They are leading us down a path of sure destruction in a world that needs a quality model of democracy now more than ever.

david - i agree that Bush’s reasons for the war turned out to be invalid. I don’t believe he lied, but i do believe he was mistaken about the WMD (though i do wonder what happened to them and when). In any case, even if he had any WMD, i don’t think he would have been a direct threat to the US anytime in immediate future (though his support of terrorists in the MidEast was reprehensible). On this latter point i also think reasonable people can disagree.

As for the Sudan, i imagine (yet another “what if") that if i were a black Sudanese farmer being killed, raped, etc that i would hope the US would help. Even if the US was doing it in for its own best interests. In any case, the US does seem to be the the only major country concerning itself with the tragedy taking place there, and far too lackadaisically in my opinion.

Linking Hitler to Bush via Christianity is no more reprehensible than linking Iraq to Al-Quaeda via Isalm. 

They are both tenuous arguments.  The difference is that young Americans and thousands of Iraqis have died because of the fallacy of the latter.

I could justify all of KV’s points. For starters, the Bush-Hitler christianity statement. Vonnegut is trying to show that just because you are a “man of God” doesn’t mean that you are correct in all of your thoughts and actions. How many times has Bush brought religion into his discussion? God told him to do this, God willed him to do that......And because of his God-fearing mentality, he has the support of every right-wing radical Christian nut in America who opposes Kerry merely because he’s catholic. Religion should not factor into political opinions. Unfortunately, in a right-wing radical Christian country like ours, it often does. KV points out that being a Christian doesn’t make you an automatic savior. Hitler was Christian. And I would argue that somebody who “hears” God tell them things could be classified as a schizophrenic.

Brian - Who were *really* the Nazis in the US-Iraqi war? As you may or may not know, the Baath party was a Nazi party set up to accommodate Muslim beliefs. Saddam attacked his own people and his neighbours, killing hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions.

If we held an election between Bush and Saddam, would anyone here vote for Saddam (hopefully this is a ridiculous question!)? Was Iraq really just a peaceful country minding its own business, when Bush decided to go on a attack frenzy?

And what ethnicities no longer have constitutional protections in the US?

If we ostensibly invaded Iraq to free the Iraqis from the ethnic and political cleansing of Saddam’s regime, then it follows that we have to invade Sudan for the same reason.  However, it is painfully clear that the administration used Saddam’s atrocities as an excuse and, since Sudan has little wealth and even less political importance, the people there will continue to live in fear.

Ken comes off as a smug, uneducated, socially inept asshole who laughs at his own jokes and just tries to belittle people and mock them when someone disagrees with his idiotic statements. Just to be mature, since I’ve obviously been accused of not being just that, I won’t say that I wouldn’t be suprised if Ken is a closet homosexual who engages in auto-erotic axphyxiation on pre-pubescent boys. I just won’t say that. I’m not trying to ensnare anyone Matt, you might take your head out of Ken’s anus you know.

Brian - it is clear that the stated reason for attacking Iraq was “self defense” and that it was mistaken. The liberation of the Iraqi people was just a side effect (but perhaps a good one, depending on how it goes in the long run).

I do think the US should pressure the Sudanese government to stop the genocide. While it is doing that to some degree, the efforts are weak - but still stronger than anything the UN or other major countries seem to be able to muster.

There are muslim citizens of the US being held without due process at Guantanamo Bay.  They are being held without due process because the US has declared them prisoners of war.  Our own citizens.  How easy is it to expand that power because of perceived “threats” or “dissent”?  Far to easy for me to be comfortable or look the other way.

You are constructing a straw man argument.  I did not say that Saddam was a nice guy or that his regime was not horrible. That is not a point of contention.  But, what does it mean when we are willing to become that which we despise?  What right did we have to invade Iraq if they were not posing a clear and present danger? If we have the right to overlook the sovreignty of nations, then why aren’t we planning an invasion of Sudan to achieve the same “moral” ends? We seem far to willing to give up the principles that have seen us grow and prosper for 228 years.

KKKen is part of the machine, y’all.  He’s doing his job as devil’s advocate.

Good to see you engaging, Vonnegut.  ITT publishers must be a new gig...keep them going; your thoughts as words do more damage to Ken’s mainframe than they could ever imagine...kind of like depth charges.

Everyone else...try the book, SLAPSTICK, and keep an eye on the Chinese.

One Saddam, 37,000 dead innocent Iraq’s, 1000 dead young troops, Iraq worse off, no elec., no clean water, no medicine, no security, no jobs, (outsourced), theft of all thier economy, due to privatization, (with no benefit to Iraq), just economic gain to US war profiteers, many dying from cancer due to our use of Depleted Uranium Weapons, no rights of worker’s to organize, and 10,000 or more new Osama’s.

All sounds like a lot of stinking thinking to me.
Ain’t the USA wonderful.

Hitler said “Czechoslovakia is a dagger pointed at the heart of Germany.” George Bush said we have to get rid of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction before they are used on us.  Obviously both invasions were pure self-defense. 

The Germans said the Belgian civilians they rounded up and shot in WWI were “illegal combatants” and therefore not under the protection of the Geneva Convention.  The Bush administration says the people it rounded up and threw into the slammers at Guantanamo and various other places, with no access to their families, lawyers, without being brought before magistrates or charged, are “illegal combatants” and therefore not under the protection of the Geneva Convention. 

And the Hague Convention?  Just another “scrap of paper” as the Germans described the treaty guaranteeing the neutrality of Belgium.

One empire after another has brought itself to ruin by overextending its military--the Roman, Ottoman, French, Spanish, British, Japanese, German, Czarist, and Soviet empires are some examples that come immediately to mind.  But of course we are different.  Let’s see now, is it 105 countries or 150 countries in which our armed forces are currently deployed?  My, my, it makes such a difference, I know I really should be more au courrant on these things…

But then that history stuff is boring stuff that happened before--that was then and this is now!  And we have not just a fine President, but a supurb one!  Georgius Supurbus, like Tarquinus Supurbus!  [Just a hint to those who sniff at “dead” languages--that ain’t no compliment.]

Hey Ken ... Shove it.

This piece isn’t an analysis. It isn’t a term paper. It isn’t an abstraction justifying human lives put on the line in support of a unilateral Right Wing decision to expand an empire which only benefits the “right” people. It isn’t intended to coldly and logically adjust, ever so slightly, our ability to watch, hate, fear, and jail each other.

It’s a story. They’re important. Stories don’t go away, no matter how much you scream at them that they’re not founded in perfect, remote, cold logic. You can jack-boot around all you want with your belief that you hold The One Truth, but someone, somewhere, will have a story of his or her own. It will be different.

That’s kinda the point.

It’s easy to pick someone apart. It’s easy to color that person with your own miserable rationalizations for your selfish conduct. That’s how we get by, if we’re not paying attention. If we’re not awake.

But if a man tells a story about himself and you don’t like it, write your own darn story. Make your own light. Don’t huddle under someone else’s just to make your shadow look big. Don’t curse the light.

Opinions are like assholes;everybody has one!

Having stated that, I believe Mr. Vonneget’s article is “right-on”!!

Observations like this are critical to our basic freedoms: this land IS our land-time to exercise our right to vote.

Be well all........and safe!

Keep your faith in the human race.

Mike

Ken,

1. 500,000 (popular vote)
2. Overvotes
3. Illegal felon purge in Florida
4. Late Absentee military ballots only for GOP

As a vet, I’m totally disgusted with where this country has gone in such a short time. Bush was, and still is a coward. Now he’s become a traitor to democracy itself and should be tried as such.

You have to love simple-minded right-wingers who reduce every political debate to the same rhetoric-spewing argument. “OH WE LIBERATED IRAQ”, “BUSH MADE A MISTAKE RATHER THAN DECEIVE THE ENTIRE NATION”, “THE FRENCH ARE WANKERS BECAUSE THEY WON’T JOIN IN ON THE SLAUGHTER”. So, I’m going to (attempt to) discredit the three above statements:

1. All recent polls show that roughly 85% of Iraqi’s would prefer if the United States left Iraq today. If you don’t believe the polls, try and wrap your mind around this one: Dick Cheney, former CEO of Halliburton, received a hefty $30 Million “parting gift” from the oil conglomerate before joining the 2000 election. Now, since occupying Iraq, Halliburton has gained revenues of nearly $800 MILLION. Enron, Tom Lay’s cutely corrupt company - who donated millions of dollars to the Bush campaign in soft money - have seem similar profit booms since the occupation of Iraq. SO, let’s not call this a “liberation”, as the “liberal media” likes to brand it, let’s call it rugged imperialistic genocidal slaughter of innocent people. And let’s not get into the links between al qaeda and Iraq, because W. himself has more links to al qaeda than Saddam. OK…

2. As for this “MISTAKE”, i just pray to god that he was lying about thinking Iraq was an “imminent threat” because i would rather have a cunningly deceitful leader than an ignorant dumbass. All presidents lie, it’s part of the game, but it’s a wholly different story when a leader sends people to die over a clear miscommunication or (more likely) a blatant lie. And now…

3. THE FRENCH. This is the most tired argument the right-wingers have. Get over the French. Let us think back 228 years, to good ‘ol 1776 and the Revolutionary War. Do you know who helped us “liberate” this fine nation? By golly, I believe it was the French, Batman.  So, if not for the French, your pompous ass wouldn’t be able to argue your tired, simpleton rhetoric. Open your eyes to the world, it might help a little.

Let’s not make fun of Ken.  We’re supposed to have compassion of cripples, whether they be physical or intellectual.

Vonnegut, on the other hand, is accurate, erudite, and too the point, as usual.  Ryan didn’t do too bad in his first post either.

srl

I am a bit discouraged by the constant stream of negativity aimed at Ken.  His opinions may not be shared by me, but insulting him and stereotyping all conservatives is absurd. Ken seems to be a decent human being, although I question his support of the current administration.

It’s this kind of weird and vicious mudslinging that we need to try and rise above.  Will conservatves and liberals live in peace and harmony?  Hardly.  But a little civility when discussing isn’t too much to ask.

The second most disturbing scene in F9-11 to me was the shameful response to the black congress men and women on the floor of the US senate.  Thousands of legitimate voters were taken off of the Florida eligibility list. They just happened to be black and share names with convicted felons. The election was stolen by disenfranchisement, not by hanging chads.

The Jeb Bush administration knew what it was doing when they purged to rolls.  The election was stolen.  KV’s article is referring to F9-11 in its discussion of the stolen election.

Brian , in the past I always steered away from personal attacks on fools like Ken; I felt that they were probably incapable of understanding any reasoned discourse, so why bother.

But recently, after seeing the self-righteous, dishonest attacks on people trying to voice a different opinion from people like Ken, I decided to not ignore those fools any longer and to tell them what I think of them.  Not only that, but I will go out of my way to point out their stupidity of the absurd positions that they espouse. 

Its time to stop being nice and begin to give the neocons the same kind of treatement they use on poeple they call liberals.  Sorry if that offends you, but Ken has a right to b e stupid, and I have a right to tell him that he is stupid.  Neh, in this, these last days before the most important election of my more than 50 years, not just a right, but a duty to do so.

srl

No one wants to make Ken a stereotype, Ken himself does that. He is the stereotypical right wing republican who can’t see past his own testicles, wich pump his body full of testosterone (the chemical responsible for the fight or flight syndrome), causing him to first fight the opinions of others with nonsense and then fly away to make sure he doesn’t have to defend his arguments with actual evidence. When Ken chooses to become more than a stereotype and chooses to be rational he will no longer be a stereotype. It’s so easy to choose “A” or “B” and then argue your way through it with the same garbage that has convinced so many others. Why even bother to think things through yourelf and put your arguement into your own words? It has been done for you… now go drink your coffee and relax.

What im seeing here, even though i am still only 18 is the kind of arguments children have over toys during break time. You Guys (Ken & Ryan) both should leave your personal comments out of theese post’s because in the end nobodys taking you seriously.

It is very unfortunate that most people do not believe their govertment is capable of only putting forth their special interest and agenda of the the chosen few(elite) who support(money) the politicians in office at this time.

It is more unfortuante that the majority of the countrys citizens, stand by apatheticlly enjoying the comfort and denial that is created by their goverments imperialistic capitalism, that only generates war and destruction.

It is more unfortunate to believe that the freedom to choose to consume, buy, spend...is more powerful that the freedom to choose life. It is equally as infortunate to believe that Mcdoanlds, 7/eleven, nordstrom on every corner is freedom.

please forgive my english.

I just enjoy razzing Ken actually. ;)

Ken and Ryan are idiots.

Somebody had to say it.

Franco, that is the most immature bullshit I’ve ever read. Did anything I had to say to him involve you? Please go sterilize yourself and do everyone a favor.

Anyone who believes there is a strong similarity between the Bush administration and the leadership of the Nazi party must be forgiven for his stupidity. First correct the fool, then pity him.

Is Bush misguided, dim-witted, ill-advised, disinterested in statecraft and a reasonable candidate for worst American president? Sure. Are his handlers concerned principally with diverting public money into the coffers of well-connected cronies and willing to risk the lives of Americans and others through misexecuted adventurist military campaigns? Damn straight. But while this is embarrassing for most thinking Americans, let’s not forget that it is a far leap between this and the most offensive criminal state in modern history. To argue that putting protesters in a cage or is akin to Daley tactics of ‘68, let alone a Hitlerian crackdown, just shows no understanding of history. And it’s an insult to those on left who gave their lives in the struggle against fascism.

Of course some of you would have to read a book to be able to put the present in some meaningful context. And one more thing as I withdraw from Ken’s anus, per Ryan’s witty instructions, I posit that the teenaged (hopefully, for his sake) semi-moron would gain more sympathy among the latte liberal readership of ITT if he doesn’t retreat to calling his intellectual betters faggots. These days that’s usually considered poor form, especially in the larger context about the road to fascism.

Alan, you are correct, of course, when you say the following:

“One empire after another has brought itself to ruin by overextending its military--the Roman, Ottoman, French, Spanish, British, Japanese, German, Czarist, and Soviet empires are some examples that come immediately to mind.  But of course we are different.”

But don’t you think that most people who throw around the terms Nazi and Hitlerlike are talking about something other than overly rapid expansion of an unsustainable territorial hegemony. I think most people generally think of the whole racial purity and death camps legacy. Maybe that’s just me.

And as your post suggests, the collapse of empire is something that has quite a history. I wonder, if the author and his defenders mean what you suggest, why no one ever compares Bush & Co. to Octavian, Bonaparte, Spain’s Charles V, Victoria, Disraeli, Tojo, Nicholas II, Stalin or any of the hundreds of despots and imperialists who have engaged in stupid wars and tried to keep quiet dissent at home? I suspect it’s because the Nazis have the extra baggage of things Bush, to my knowlege, has never been accused of.

Librarians are getting overruled these days, not just by national directives such as the USA PATRIOT Act, but by activist governors.

Last month the South Dakota governor removed a section of the state library Web site because it gave health advice to teens.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/webguide/internetlife/2004-07-13-sd-censor_x.htm

This month the Kansas governor had rap CDs removed from all libraryies.
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/06/library.cdsettlement.ap/index.ht tml

We need your help....

My bestest buddy Matt likes to put words in my mouth. I never called anyone a “faggot”, nor would I. I just suggested that possibly you had your head stuck up Ken’s anus… maybe when you were following him around rubbing your nose in it he accidentally sat on your head, of course I don’t know. I don’t think that constitutes calling you a homosexual, nor do I ever call homosexuals “faggots”. Apparenty you do, good for you. That is poor form if you ask me. Hopwfully you have a wife and kids and a perfectly mancured lawn somewhere in the suburbs, maybe a ranch style house, the interior entirely in beige. Only that wold be bland, predictable and stereotypical enough for you my homphobic friend. Get an intellect before you can think yo call yourself my intellectual better. “Faggots” are bundles of sticks Matt, bundles of sticks.

Ryan, you’re right. You didn’t use the word faggot. I suppose I shouldn’t have condensed as such this chestnut you wrote earlier: “I won’t say that I wouldn’t be suprised if Ken is a closet homosexual who engages in auto-erotic axphyxiation on pre-pubescent boys.”

You’re a clown.

I didn’t know that you think “faggots”, as you call them, engage in auto-erotic axphyxiation on pre-pubescent boys. That’s quite a uninformed view of homosexuals you have there Matt. You are a monkey it seems.

Isn’t this turning a little silly?  Your vindictively snide comments are getting you nowhere.  If you want to exchange insults, do it privately.

I love you, Madame Librarian.

I really, really do.

The quiet steely resolve librarians have shown over these past few years needs to be trumpeted from the rooftops.

Librarians rescued Michael Moore’s _Stupid White Men_ from the Harper Collins cowards who wanted to mulch all copies.

Our local library was the only theatre here to screen _Fog of War_, _Bowling for Columbine_, and _The Agronomist_.

And more good news: the ALA (American Library Association) didn’t roll over for Ashcroft.
They pushed back and got the Justice Department to rescind the instructions to U.S. libraries to destroy copies of documents on how citizens may defend themselves from forfeiture.

BTW, forfeiture is doublespeak for the government calling you criminal and stealing your property.

Link:
http://www.ala.org/Template.cfm?Section=News&template;=/ContentManagement/Conten ntDisplay.cfm&ContentID=72299

Kurt Vonnegut, you are a most fine and dandy human being.  Thanks for being you.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

hey ken, you and your buddy Bush have a couple things in common. You lie--A LOT: the Florida election theft post of yours was a classic.  And you also think people dying because of your lies are just a big laugh--LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL.

what a funny facist. har har har.

hey ken ,,, sally in the garden, sifting cinders lifted up her leg and farted
like a man. the bursting of her bloomers broke sixteen winders. ...and cheeks of her ass went clap , clap , clap

Ken, maybe in your neocon suckass rantings you can explain to the old lady who lives on my street why her 19 year old grandson had to be blown apart in Iraq. Word has it that they only found his torso and one arm. I’m sure she’ll feel better in no time when you tell her.

So it goes.

I see that Ken has joined a now time honored
tradition among Bush supporters--bashing veterans. Bush, who served (more or less). in what was known as “The Champagne Squadron” of the Texas Air National Guard, a unit composed of chickenhawks of the privileged, has his surrogates bashing John Kerry’s service record. In 2000, the Bush campaign suggested that McCain might be “unstable” because of the time he spent in a Viet Cong prison camp. And then there’s good old Sen. Chambliss of GA who evidently got a lot mileage in his campaign by running an ad placing the picture of Max Cleland an triple amputee from Nam next to bin Laden’s. Now Ken goes after the patriotism credentials of Mr. Vonnegut, who spent time in a German prisoner of war camp in WW2. Seems to me that the Bushies love war, they just don’t like the people who fight in them. Mr. Vonnegut’s got some first hand experience about the damage Hitler can cause, and he has every right to speak about it. And overblown though his comparisons might be, he did leave out one important matter.  Hitler actually did win the popular vote.

PS Come on, Kenny boy, be honest. If the Supreme Court decision had gone the other way, you guys would still be bitching about it wouldn’t you. You’d still be crying cheat, fraud and be foaming at the mouth. What’s done is done is the way I look at it. The best way to take care of 2000 is to send W’s little chickenhawk ass scurrying back home so he can spend the rest of his life doing what he’s done so well--hiding behind his daddy’s suit and his momma’s skirt and sending the hired help out to fight his battles for him.

george w. bush
how embarrassing…
the rest of the world sees right through you.

Vonnegut’s quick little essay says he loves librarians because they’re actually protecting our freedom, while Bush’s minions attack them daily. Vonnegut is so discouraged by that mismatch that he mentions Einstein and Twain giving up on our species, because we aren’t worthy of the respect of those great minds.

Then we get critics of the essay lying (probably to themselves first) about some of Vonnegut’s supporting points - lies easily dispelled by anyone looking at the facts, not looking for rationalizations for their political convictions. The Florida election was “lost” by 537 votes out of millions, while *tens of thousands* of Democrats were kept from voting in black communities - clearly either a tie in a deliberately broken election, or a Gore victory: President Gore.

Bush and Hitler aren’t linked in their tyranny by christianity, nor is that implied. Their cunning cover stories to deceive the easily led fearful warmongers is the link. There are certainly more, such as Hitler’s faked attack by Poland to justify Germany’s invasions, Nazi coopting the burning Reichstag win the 1934 elections that parallel the 2002 Republican campaigns. Bush Sr’s father, Prescott, selling Nazi war bonds until convicted by the Feds, stopping Bush financing of bullets fired at Americans. Open your eyes and see the unity of corporate fascism.

The Nazis fought the Soviets under their propaganda of “saving them from the tyranny of Stalin”. Europeans and ex-colonies have learned to fear “liberators” who kill and lie at every turn to cover their imperial wars. Why shouldn’t foreigners fear the people who multiply terrorism by kicking the hornets nest?

But where are the critics voices about the librarians? Why aren’t they as outraged as Vonnegut about this marginal class now locked in battle with the Federal government? Why would they rather whine their media lies than talk about the specific problem? Because to be consistent, they’ll have to embrace the fascists, and throw the librarians on their pyre of lies.

All this two party arguing… neither party is right for the American people. The only party that makes even a little sense is the Libertarian’s.

So it’s said Bush’s election was incorrect… we’ll never know how Gore would have handled 9/11 and it’s aftermath (Iraq), so we can’t say he would have been a better choice.

Personally I’m sick of voting for the lesser of two evils. And I’m sick of being told I’ll be throwing my vote away, if I vote for a third party.

I can read through all the BS I want, but when voting in a two party system.. I’ll be voting for the best liar.

Ken hates freedom.  He’s a “freedom hater”.

For KEN and all:

Kurt Vonnegut is a WWII veteran, as is Ossie Davis, Andy Rooney, Gore Vidal and countless others who were against this war.  1000 soldiers wrote a letter to Bush before the war, telling him war would be a mistake.  As did the national council of churches. 

Our most decorated living soldier Col. David Hackworth wrote an excellent column called First base first way back in Oct? of 2002.  I would suggest anyone who wants to learn something go read it. Just type david hackworth archives in you search engine. He has been right about almost everything. General Zinni, McPeak, and many other Bush supporters were totally against it because they knew something about the Middle East.  But, Bush/Cheney didn’t want the opinion of experts. Now Zinni and McPeak will doubtless vote for Kerry. 

lt. Col Karen Kwiatkowski, a lifelong conservative worked in the Pentagon in the lead up to war.  She was glad to see Bush come in as president, but after seeing the lies and dishonesty that sold this war she now believes getting rid of Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/ et all is the greatest imperative for our country.  She was so disgusted with Feith and the “office of special plans” she took early retirement rather than continue to be involved in such dishonesty. I think you could say she considered it treason.

Marine General Smedley Butler gave his “War is a racket” speech 70 years ago in which he said ‘war is a racket, fought by the masses to benefit the very few.  Of course it isn’t put that crudely in war time, but is dressed into speeches about “patriotism and love of country… but the profits jump and leap and skyrocket and are safely pocketed… out of war counties acquire additional territory—they just take it.’ (think of Iraqi oil here) He says the same people who make money off war make money off reconstruction. He said in his 33 years in the Marine Corps he was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.  The entire speech is 14 pages, but there is a short one page version “Smedley Butler on interventionism.”

General Omar Bradley said “wars can be prevented as surely as they can be provoked, and we who fail to prevent them must share the guilt for the dead.”

General Douglas McArthur said ‘The powers in charge keep us in a perpetual state of fear so that we will offer up the exorbitant sums they demand.’ He also said war is so destructive on friend and foe alike it cannot be an effective way to settle disputes. 

Nazi general Goehring said, ‘Of course the people don’t want war, but it is the leaders who make the decisions and the people can always be made to do their bidding.  Just tell them they are under attack and accuse the peacemakers of lack of patriotism and putting the country at risk.’

Eisenhower said there is no such thing as a preventative war, and he would not seriously listen to anyone who tried to talk to him about it.  He said total, universal disarmament is the imperative of our time.  He also warned about entities like the Carlyle group and Hallibruton becoming so important that policy decisions would be made to serve their interests—the interests of the military-industrial complex.  In his worst nightmare he would never have imagined a president and his family would personally profit from war, however.  And this president’s family is profiting, either directly or indirectly.  Especially his uncle, Bucky Bush.  But his father didn’t resign from the Carlyle group til late 2003.  And even Neil and Marvin are getting fringe benefits.  Margie Burns wrote an article about it.

I could go on and on.  Einstein talked about the word patriotism and how he loathed it because so much evil was done in its’ name.  He was a traitor to his own country, but a patriot to the world. 

Read the Baghdad Girl Blogger.  They didn’t hate us when we came in, but they have now seen we are there to steal from them.  They would rather have Saddam back than our companies there robbing from them.  Read “With Trembling Fingers” by Hal Crowther.  It is wonderful and almost funny if anything about this mess can be considered funny. 

Bush just said something else outrageous. He said raising taxes on rich people doesn’t do any good because rich people know how to get out of paying taxes anyway.  MAYBE WE SHOULD PASS SOME LAWS THAT DON’T ALLOW THEM TO GET OUT OF PAYING TAXES??!!

Also, the Repubs are supposed to be the financially responsible party, but under Reagan we went into horrible debt.  Under Eisenhower the richest among us were taxed at 91%, and corporations were taxed at 52% and he refused to support lowering those rates.  Taxes on the rich stayed at over 70% til Reagan came in and lowered them to 28%.  But even he raised them some when he saw “trickle down economics” wasn’t working. Under Reagan we went into debts that seemed insurmountable. After 6 years Clinton managed to get us out of them, but now in only 3 years under Bush we have gone into the worse debt in our history, and the costs of war have not yet been figured into it. Bush is probably the only president to have cut taxes during wartime.  He and his rich friends and campaign contributors will pay even less taxes on the blood money they make off this war!! “The hottest levels of hell are reserved for those who profit from the misery of others,” according to Dante.  I think they should be imprisoned in THIS lifetime, however.

Under Cheney offshore tax havens for Halliburton increased from 9 to 44. 

Bush has rolled back over 400 environmental regulations to benefit his campaign contributors.  He is the worst president in the history of the United States.  He has made this formerly revered country hated around the world.  The depleted uranium weapons used in Iraq have made that country toxic forever.  AND, people who just have the bad luck to be where Americans are will now be in danger because millions more people hate us world wide, and the ones who hated us already hate us more intensely.  As British Iraqi correspndednt Robert Fisk says “Bush is the best recruiting poster Osama bin Laden ever had.” The Spaniards were attacked because their government sided with us although the Spanish people were overwhelmingly against then getting involved. 

Why could the rest of the world see it was a mistake, but our press didn’t even question Bush/Cheney about it??  When a crime is committed, the first thing an investigator usually asks is “who will profit?” In this case that was obvious?  The oil companies, the defense contractors.  And, big surprise, people in this administration had close ties to all of these!!  But the media didn’t question.  They were as the Irish reporter said “stenographic rather than confrontational.”

After seeing the abuse pictures moderate Arabs who didn’t hate us now think Americans and Christians are sexually perverted.  And the worst is of the abuse pictures are yet to come.  Seymour Hersch says the worst of it all is hearing the shrieks of the young boys being sodomized. 

This stuff happens in all wars.  Bush would have known that if he had served in Vietnam.  My husband was there for 18 months.  He, too, knew it would be a mistake.  Had the welfare of the Iraqi people been our FIRST priority and the war had been planned accordingly, it might not have been such a bad thing.  But our first priority was AMERICAN PROFITS!!  Another priority was influencing midterm elections.  So the war was rushed, and Rumsfeld wanted to do it “on the cheap” and went in too light.  Hackworth writes about that as well.  We guarded their oil ministries, but not their museums.  We were thinking of what was important to US, not what was important to them.  Put yourself in THEIR shoes.  Imagine it was us who were invaded.

“Makes one wonder if the UN is even worth having. . .”

you can say that because you do not live in the sudan, or east timor, or cambodia, or afghanistan, or iraq, or lao, or vietnam, or the congo and on and on. for whatever its many faults, millions would be dead without it.

WHY THEY RESIST

“The most extravagant idea that can be born in the head of a political thinker is to believe that it suffices for people to enter, weapons in hand, among a foreign people and expect to have its laws and constitution embraced. It is in the nature of things that the progress of Reason is slow and no one loves armed missionaries; the first lesson of nature and prudence is to repulse them as enemies.

One can encourage freedom, never create it by an invading force.”

- Maximilien Robespierre - 1791

Four More Months

In all of this folderol something has been lost. The very idea that “our” government would restrict our rights to read books in a public library speaks volumes.(pun intended)
The mere fact that anyone could try to defend the fact that our own government is trying to restrict our access to the truth is reprehensible.
My family has fought and died for this country since it’s very inception.Indeed,one of my family signed the mayflower compact.He was an indentured servant, and was known as a very cranky individual,and was able to read and write, which actually was quite common in Elizabethan England.
(not sure of that spelling.)
However, George became by virtue of his belligerance the spokesperson for all the indentured servants on the mayflower, thereby becoming the very first union steward on the north american continent.
I remember the gleam in my father’s eye when he told me this.
You see, My Dad was a union electrician,and had not only belonged to the IBEW, but had also belonged to the UAW.
I myself am a union carpenter,musician,writer and poet of small note.(very small)
The point that I am trying to make, I guess, is that I have a memory of my mom taking me to the elyria city library and turning me loose like a
commanche raider with a huge amount of scalps for the taking.
The librarian would ask me “Are you going to read all that in enough time?” and my mom would snicker
“Oh,don’t worry,we will be back early.”
I do not want any American to lose that ability to read any damn thing they want to. The ability to
see the truth and make up our minds for ourselves
is not the cornerstone of liberty, but the very foundation of liberty.
My family has fought and died for this country in various places, and some of us were just horsethieves, and some were hung,and some saved peoples lives. Some were shopclerks, and some of us built ships,and houses for people to live in.
My family has evolved into all that is what we call “America”.

I salute the librarian’s stance of resistance, and I salute Killgore Trout’s salutation of them as well.
I guess that in the coming morning I will have a
Breakfast Of Champions.

lonna, you posted while i was writing.
good thinking and mustering of facts.
you are totally correct.thanks for some good writing.

These comments need to be monitored so that people interested in what people think don’t have to wade through propaganda and vitriol. For example, let ‘ken’ have his say.  Let him even participate in a limited argument.  But don’t let a partisan hack like ‘ken’ dominate the comments.  Hell, he probably works for the Bush Administration.  But whoever he is and whatever he does, he doesn’t deserve a neverending forum from In These Times for his bullshit.

Two items for the record: 

1) History will show that librarians are even bigger heroes than Vonnegut says.  They’re the one group that never caved to the “Bush is God” propaganda after 9/11.  They didn’t resist just the Patriot Act, but also the suppression of Mike Moore’s “Stupid White Men,” which was to resisting this George as “Common Sense” was to resisting George III.

2) Just for the record, Americans also invented the WWI-style trench warfare.  Principal credit goes to Robert E. Lee and especially to his right-hand man, James Longstreet.  No machine guns or barbed wire required.  Just good soldiers, good earthworks, accurate rifles, sharp sticks and logs.

Thank you, possum.  Walter Cronkite said the media no longer gives us the information we need to make informed decisions.  In the build up to war, Ed Asner said the media wasn’t doing its’ job, so it was up to us.  I took him seriously.  I have been writing ever since.  Letters to the editor etc.  For the most part, I stopped watching mainstream news, years ago when it became “infotainment” and spent hours on non-vital stuff such as Princess Di’s death, the O.J. trial, and Clinton’s sex life.  I now rely on the foreign press, Democracy Now on FSTV, Truthout, Buzzflash and Bush Watch—wherever their headlines send me. VAIW, Counter Punch, Jim Hightower’s weblog, Intervention, the Bring Them Home Now website, alternet, commond dreams—there are so many good sources our there.  I came to this article from Buzzflash.  I am actually writing a book to pass out.  In it I have compiled the words of real war heroes, letters from soldiers, sections on the environment, the economy, how Bush supports our troops, weapons and d.u. weapons, the neo con agenda, the god factor, etc. It is non-ending because this administration never stops finding new ways to harm this country, the world, and the environments and people of both.  And the broadcast media is almost useless. 
Lonna

Chris,

Back on August 6, you posted that there were incidents of police barring blacks from voting and a faulty list of felons that were also barred from voting.  Can you tell me where you got this information?  I am not trying to challenge, as I do not know of that problems, I only like to make informed decisions and would like to look at the source you are citing with those rather strong accusations of disenfranchisment.

Loyalty to the people always, loyalty to the goverment only when it desrves it.
Mark Twain

Perhaps ITT removed some offensive posting by Ken that I didn’t see, but assuming not I don’t understand all the anger. Where is all the “propaganda and vitriol” for which oh-so-progressive Larry would censor the guy?

Ken’s main points seem to have been that:

- Vonnegut went overboard;
- Bush would have won the recount even had the court ruled favorably on the specific terms of Gore’s petition (which did not get into disenfranchisement of ex-cons, minorities kept from polls, butterfly ballots, etc.);
- Saddam was a pretty unlikeable fellow and that his removal was perhaps—in hindsight— reason enough to invade;
- Ryan’s bizarre and incoherent personal attacks are annoying;
- Conditions under the old sanctions regime were pretty awful and that regular Iraqis suffered under it;
- And current situation in Sudan is awful and its perhaps says something untoward about the UN that Sudan sits on the body’s commission on human rights.

That’s about it. Am I missing something? I don’t agree with everything the Ken says, but just because he takes issue with some of points of ITT/Indymedia/Chomsky dogma doesn’t mean he’s a neocon crazy or a White House plant. You’re all kidding yourselves if you think this echo chamber is in any way different in terms of anti-intellectualism or paranoia than those found on the hard right. Have fun being preached to, choir boys and girls.

I am a librarian, and I live in Texas, the state which spawned Bush and his cronies.  I am proud of librarians, and I am ashamed of Texas every day of the week.  Arrogance, greed, and willful ignorance are not a sound basis for government, yet that is how Texas has been ruled for decades, and will be so for the forseeable future. 

Now that basis has taken hold in Washington, and I’m not sure if it can ever be dislodged. 

One hundred years from now, historians (in other countries, who have freedom of thought and speech) will point to the reign of George II as the time when the wheels came off.  When the tenets of the Founding Fathers finally went out the window along with common sense, concern for fellow man, and any last optimism that this country might indeed endure as a paragon of human self-government. 

I don’t sympathize much with the eventual victims of this madness.  Most of them think George Bush is a hero, at least enough to elect and re-elect him.  They deserve him and the America he wants.  Good luck to them.

I will advise my baby daughter, when she is old enough, to emigrate to Canada or some better place.  I will apologize to her for bringing her into the world at a time when the American empire began its steep decline. 

I salute Mr. Vonnegut, one of my literary heros, for firing off a broadside and staying with us to fight the good fight, even though it’s a lost cause.  Lost causes are always the best causes, really.

Regardless or whether or not Bush won the White House, we do know one thing, he did not win the popular election, ergo, he did not have a mandate - especially not a mandate to impose his Right Wing thinking on more than half the population that voted against him.  My fellow Americans, we now have a president who believes he was installed in the office by God (I suppose in the guise of Scalia).  Doesn’t that make any of you a bit queasy? 

And what we also know is that the plans to invade Iraq were drawn up long ago, and that the Bush cabal only needed a catalyst - something along the vein of Rumsfelds “better targets” - to launch the attack. 9/11 provided that juice.  As every traveling carny knows: You can only be duped as long as you allow yourself to be.

As far as Vonnegut goes?  I consider him one of the elder statesmen of American letters - and an American treasure.  Too bad we don’t value and respect our elderly treasures the way the Japanese do.  He has personally experienced many of the traumas of the last century and has used the metaphor (fiction) to pass on the absurdity and horror of war, amongst other, perhaps less dramatic, human foibles.  He has witnessed history as it was being devised and implemented by imperfect men, and as it brought them to glory - or ruin.  It’s called experience.  We ignore his warnings at our peril.

Remember, while Hitler was stealing their liberty, the German people threw roses at him.

By attacking Iraq the Bush administration has taken away the self-determining power of the Iraqi people.  All revolutions should start from within.

If one innocent person was killed in the overthrow of Sadam Hussein (which around 10,000 people were), then we as a country are just as guilty as Saddam is.

I love it when posturing dittoheads try to sound like members of the intelligentsia.  Ken, Ken, you couldn’t sink your “cognitive teeth” into Mr. Vonnegut’s piece?? Mr. Vonnegut has forgotten more about writing hard-hitting commentary than you’ll ever learn.  If you plan to critique the work of established authors, at least have the grace to find some serious data to back your point of view, not just a handful of cheap adjectives.

Of course, this will bounce off you like the truth bounces off Dubya - but I must congratulate you on your ability to irritate a lot of people.

By the way, I believe your “Palinstinine” friends would likely prefer to be called “Palestinians”.
But you knew that, didn’t you.  There’s just nothing about writing that could be considered one of your strengths, is there? Not research, not writing, not spelling, not typing - and most certainly, not reasonable thinking.

Ken, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.  You are wasting yours. 

Do you ever see someone walking down the street who’s fairly clearly psychotic?  You know, disheveled, holding a disjointed conversation with someone invisible?  How do you feel at that time?  Are you revulsed?  Do you feel an upwelling of pity and think ‘there but for God’s grace...’?

Or do you, Ken, perhaps feel a stronger revulsion, and think that people who seem ‘out of it’ should be, maybe, rounded up and put in camps?  Even gassed, maybe?

Well, most of us feel a mix of pity and revulsion when we read something written by someone like you.  Like the hapless person with psychosis, you aren’t living in the same world the rest of us are, and when you talk, you’re talking about a world only you and the voices in your head (Hannity, Limbaugh etc) inhabit. 

So when you have those thoughts, those strange, ugly ideas that you get from the voices, you would do well to remember that people like us outnumber people like you by quite a lot, and the only thing that saves you from ending your days behind wire or up a chimney is that *we’re* *not* *like* *you*.

The recount that was STOPPED by Bush v. Gore was counting overvotes according to Judge Terry Lewis, and therefore would have resulted in a Gore victory. 
All the alternative scenarios, including the recount requested by the Gore campaign, are irrelevant.

Kurt Vonnegut’s article is a bit scattershot, but his point is clear. The America that we all love is in dire peril. Mr. Vonnegut, as a combat veteran of the United States Army Infantry, is giving us some hard-won wisdom. When he went to Europe in 1944, he was one of the good guys. He fought the bad guys, and he knows what they look like. People who fought the Nazis don’t make many analogies about them, because it is usually in bad taste. When a guy who knows Nazis tells us that we are becoming the new Nazis, it is worth a listen. As Ken points out, we’re not running death camps. And sure, we have a Constitution. But the Germans thought of themselves as a perfectly civilized people as late as 1932 or ‘33. And, as it turned out, they were on a slippery slope that led straight to hell. Our current administration has virtually no historical perspective, and has discovered that fear is an effective political weapon. I’m sure everything is just fine, as Ken reports, but I still think we could be in for a bumpy ride.

Amy,

Check out www.gregpalast.com for a more complete discussion of the Florida disenfranchisement problem.

Is Ken really Rove?

FREEPER

I love being personally atacked by someone like Ken after trying to defend someone like Vonnegut from Ken’s personal attacks. It’s sort of like the bully in highschool who singles out and harasses the smaller kid. Then when the smaller kid finally retaliates the bully and his friends all say “See? Look what that smaller kid said/did! He was asking for it.” I don’t think any personal attack I made was either “bizarre” nor “incoherant”. Tat’s wat Bill O’Reilly does. He takes his overbearing attitude and speaking vice, rotten personality, and uses it to bully someone trying to make any point differing from theirs by trying to make them look like a left wing nut. Tell me Matt, what have I said that was bizarre or incoherant? Or is that just what you call arguments that differ from your own?

The problems with discussions like this is that no one REALLY listens to what anyone else says. It’s the same way conversations go among egotistical sorts. They stare and nod their heads while the other person talks, not actually listening to what is being said, but waiting for their own turn to talk.

Matt

Yes, you are missing something. You are missing the fact that Ken is desperately trying to defend the indefensible.
“Saddam was a pretty unlikeable fellow and that his removal was perhaps—in hindsight— reason enough to invade”
...in hindsight reason to spend billions and billions of dollars and thousands and thousands of lives to remove an “unlikeable fellow” who incidentally was nowhere near the threat that he was made out to be. With a statement like that, I have to believe that you are an idiot and let me be the first to say that you can stick your condescending attitude up your ass.

Dear Kurt,

The rush to Fascism is obvious for those with eyes to see.  I beg you to please keep 1% of your mind open to a 1% solution.  I’ll be writing to ask for a small bit of help within a year.  When I do, please help.  Thanks.

Scott

Wow. This discussion has become quite heated.  Dwayne, while I agree that Ken is trying to defend the indefensible, sticking mostly to the ever-shifting Republican talking points and using selective amnesia to ignore inconvenient facts, I don`t see how this makes Matt an `idiot` or `condescending.` He simply summarized and pointed out Ken`s main points. I don`t see how reverting to personal attacks is going to resolve anything.
Yes, Republican talking points are annoying and are a hinderance to rational debate, but so are personal attacks.
With patience and the use of strategically placed facts and reasonable arguements, Republican talking points are easily dissovled and exposed as the over-simplistic rhetorical devices that they are. In the future, try to keep your anger in check.
Cheers,
Monte

On 6 Aug, Shane said:
Religion should not factor into political opinions.

Rather than leap into the flames, I posted response to this in my web log. You can read it at <http://www.jacobsma.net/weblog/2004/08/politics-religion.html>, if you’re interested.

Er, URL got chopped. I’ll try again:
<http://www.jacobsma.net/weblog/2004/08/politics-religion.html>

That’s better.

Arrgh! It did it again.

Try this instead: <http://tinyurl.com/6f2mr>.

Silly me: HTML works here.

Just go to Politics & Religion.

Whew!

This article expresses, with such marvelous clarity, what millions of us feel.  How ashamed we are of what we have become as a nation.  But there is hope.  There really is.  Time is closing in ....and we have to get the message out to the nation and to the world.  So many think that we all follow the man in the bubble in Washington.. who is sheltered from the reality of all the hatred directed at him and his policies.  He really is.

Come to NYC on August 29th.  Make this the mother of all protests.  It’s now or never.  Here’s a pdf you can download for free....to educate the clueless about what so many of us feel...and will express in NYC.

http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/now_or_never__the_final_protes.html

I am so pleased to see articles like this, and the work of people like Michael Moore.

The projection of America paints Americans as being like their government.  Rude, violent, scheming and Machevallian.  Supporting one cause only so long as it suits, then dropping it and turning against it.

I only know a few Americans - wonderful people they are.  But the nation?  It is becoming terribly sick.  I’m not sure how much better it would be under a Democrat government, but I can be fairly confident that the continuation of Bush’s presidency would be one of the greatest threats to world peace.

I am pleased that so many Americans are brave enough to express these views.  Comments about how it is great to live in a country where you can do so are mis-guided.  These days, Americans have to be careful what they say for fear of being branded “enemy combatants”.

Reg. I think it is great there is going to be a protest in NYC, but I am also afraid of it.  I am afraid it will create a “sympathy” bump for Bush. 

Amy Goodman interviewed Norman Mailer who said there was a reason the R’s chose to have the convention in NYC.  Some think it was so he could milk the 9/11 tragedy, but Mailer thinks it is because the R’s are hoping something violent will happen there.  He says if it does “game over.” And since I put nothing past this bunch of R’s, it would not surprise me if R moles CAUSE a disruption that can then be blamed on the Dems. Mailer says it must be a peaceful demonstration or it will be counterproductive.  I think I agree with that.

Some people believe the people behind the people behind Bush will actually create a terrorist attack if Bush’s numbers continue to go south.  What might keep them from doing it is they are not sure it would work in his favor.

Some people, of course believe the 9/11 attack was “homegrown,” and an air force colonel is among that bunch.  So is Stan Goff.  I guess nothing would surprise me, but I am at least sure Bush knew nothing about it if it was “homegrown.” If he had known, he couldn’t have looked as lost as he did in the Florida schoolroom that day.

In case you think this is paranoia, you need to read about the Northwoods project, in which the CIA?  had planned to create an attack and blame it on the Cubans as an excuse to invade that country.

One thing about the comparison to Hitler.  I would not even begin to compare Bush to the Hitler we all know and hate—the man who ruled with an iron fist and sent millions of Jews to their deaths.

But before that Hitler developed out of madness and opportunity, there was an earlier Hitler that very much resembles G.W. Bush.  If you look at a timeline of 1930’s Germany and compare it to what’s happening today, it’s extremely unsettling how familiar it all sounds.  Perhaps Bush will never become the Hitler the world came to despise, but I think the potential is certainly there.

Bush voter.  But, I was thinking of Kerry due to our international reputation being so awful.  So here I am trying to honestly learn the views of the left. All of the talk of the evil corporations.  The food you ate today, the computer you are using, the car you drive, the medicine for your children… all likely produced by corporations.  Anyway, this site has not helped sway me towards Mr. Kerry.  You guys are kind of scary.

What’s scary is big business not only influencing but dictating foreign policy. I’m glad corporations produce the wonderful conveniences I own. If frank, honest talk about social issues and governmental policy scare you, then I’m sure you can just watch more tv. The media will have no problem thinking for you.

15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.̶