I, like probably most of you, have seen Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 9/11. Its title is a parody of the title of Ray Bradbury’s great science fiction novel, Fahrenheit 451. This temperature 451° Fahrenheit, is the combustion point, incidentally, of paper, of which books are composed. The hero of Bradbury’s novel is a municipal worker whose job is burning books. And on… return to article
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Reader Comments (488)I feel the need to come to KV’s defense here, because I think that some of you are missing an important point.
KV never said that Bush IS Hitler; he simply made a parallel. In 3 years in office Bush has shown an utter contempt for (1) the checks and balances of the 3 branches (eg, passing Faith-Based Initiatives as an executive order after Congress vetoed it); (2) speaking honestly to the American people (eg, every State of the Union in which he promises money for No Child Left Behind, AIDS programs, etc etc); and (3) the free press (holding fewer press conferences than any President in history). On top of all of this, he damns as “unpatriotic” or “siding with the terrorists” anyone who dares criticize his policies.
No, Bush is not Hitler. But remember that Hitler was “democratically” elected too, and didn’t start out as the brutal dictator that he became. And Bush is leading our country down a similarly dangerous undemocratic path.
Posted by Jenny on Aug 12, 2004 at 5:11 PM We, Canadians, can’t believe you’re actually considering the re-election of that moron.
Posted by canuck on Aug 12, 2004 at 7:16 PM Ken, I can’t tell if your last post is meant to be sarcastic; I suspect it is.
You are correct in asserting that the Baath Party is a Nazi party conformed to local flavor; the fascist/Nazi movement left splinters all over the world. What you need to understand is that the Far Right of this nation, which has taken over the Republican Party, is also rooted deeply in the same influences. Go to Amazon and find Martin A. Lee’s book The Beast Reawakens, and read his account of how fascists and Nazis who survived the war were able to prosper and gain influence in many nations, including our own.
It begins with the tale of German general Reinhard Gehlen (see http://www.archives.gov/iwg/press_releases/cold_war_spymaster_records.html) who hid intel on the Soviets as a bargaining chip and ended up working for the CIA, bringing many fellow Nazis into the CIA fold. The book could use some updating, as it is over ten years old.It took me a very long time to ‘get’ this, but the extreme Right and extreme Left are actually very close together and it’s not unheard of for extremists to jump from one to the other. I looked up Mussolini in the encyclopedia (for parallels to Bush, which are numerous: a better comparison than to Hitler, by far). Mussolini started as a Marxist; however, by 1918, when he coined the word ‘fascism’ and founded the movement, he had gone from far Left to far Right, building a coalition of military officers, wealthy land owners in the Po Valley (and eventually wealthy corporations and industrialists) and the Catholic Church. All fascist governments meld the army, the rich and the dominant church, whatever that may be. But how is it possible to get there from Marxism?
Actually, it’s easy. Extremists of the Left and Right agree on the idea of using force to subdue their opposition, on the idea that one Party should rule, on the idea that only Party faithful should enjoy real political power and the luxuries that go with it, and so on. Really they disagree only on economics and religion. Let’s look at those.
In economic matters the Communist believes in central planning, with the State owning and running everything from the top. In practice this has always been a disaster because of corruption (theft by the privileged) and also because of the information bottleneck at the top (even the smartest people in the country can’t plan everything centrally: economies are far too complex for that). The fascist believes (when you come right down to it) in a corporate/feudal economy where, once again, one ends up with a sort of central ‘planning’ because the elites end up owning so much of the pie that the common folk have little say in how the economy is run. The difference between fascist and communist economies becomes a bit academic when all are hungry except the Party elite.
As to religion, we all know that Communists are Godless. We also know that fascists claim to be religious. But not all of them mean it! As Bonaparte once said, “Paris is well worth a mass.” So a Far Left party could become a Far Right party, or vice versa, simply by a purge of those who refuse to conform to the new party line. So it is that Mussolini the young Marxist could become the founder of Fascism. He only had to follow the career of Napoleon.
Liberal Democrats, believing in a free and open society with a reasonably free market and no excessive concentrations of power, can be seen as the Open end of the political spectrum, while communists and fascists belong at the Closed end. The republican Party has flung itself headlong toward the Closed end and taken the rest of us with it.
If you have followed my argument this far, there can be only one conclusion:
Bush is a communist!
Posted by Evolver on Aug 12, 2004 at 11:45 PM Well Folks, near as I can tell, the middle east thing is turning into a real “Religious War” in spite of any leader saying it is not.
Please examine carefully why Bin Laden and his crew want to kill Americans..
His Islamic slant on things makes him and his followers believe “anyone” not believing their way, MUST be killed, according to Aliah.It does not matter who our president is. Remember, 911 was planned many year before Bush came into office. Under clinton, Bin Laden’s crew planned and trained for that mission.
So, we must KILL them all, or they will kill us.
You Liberal-peaceful types have great intentions, but they do not negotiate. They will kill,,,read all about their fanatic beliefs and then decide if the USA can survive but just talk.
Posted by Bill on Aug 13, 2004 at 12:43 AM Bill,
I don`t think that there are too many people who don`t believe that Islamic extremists don`t want to kill us.
The differences come in our engagement tactics. The idea that liberals believe that we should do nothing about the terrorist situation is just another right wing talking point, serving to ignore the complexity of the situation and keep the rank and file right wing from any independent and critical thought.
Think about the consequences that come from your idea to `kill them all.` Do you really believe that all Muslims are extremists? There are good natured and peace-loving Muslims, just as there were good-natured and peace loving Germans during the Nazi era, and good-natured and peace loving Russians during the Stalinist era. The reality is that we need to draft a strategy that doesn`t nurture sympathy for the militant branch of Islam within Muslim communities. `Kill them all` rhetoric is over-simplistic, dangerous, converts ordinary Muslims to extremism after they watch their family and friends destroyed by American military power, thus legitimizing bin Laden`s teachings that America is a `Great Satan.` Military tactics are required, but it needs to be used intelligently, in combination with proper diplomacy and a critical review of our Middle East policies. Try again.
Posted by Monte on Aug 13, 2004 at 1:33 AM Our current president has lied to the American people. Thanks Mr. Vonnegut for saying what so many of us believe. Mr. Vonnegut has long been one of my favorite writers, and I deeply respect his beautifully written opinion. I have never seen so many well-known individuals speaking out during an election. No one can afford to say silent during this “reign of terror.”—-a soon-to-be
librarian
Posted by Stephanie on Aug 13, 2004 at 2:26 AM The best Commander in Chief of the 20th Century was Franklin D. Roosevelt, a liberal in a wheelchair. He never wore the uniform. The best Commander in Chief of the 19th Century was Abraham Lincoln. He was a liberal trial lawyer from Illinois. He never wore the uniform. The best Commander in Chief of the 18th Century, by default, was George Washington, a general who lost more battles than he won, but always won when he had to, and led a rebellion that made him an unpatriotic traitor in the eyes of the conservatives of the day.
In the 21st Century this nation has had only one Commander in Chief, and there was never a worse one.
Posted by Evolver on Aug 13, 2004 at 3:34 AM Evolver,
You have correctly identified the problem with extremists, but Left is still Left & Right is still Right and they are *not* the same. So Bush is not a Communist. Your understanding of Communism is incomplete. Like so many Americans, you’ve bought into the propaganda.
Now I’m not by a long shot in favor of Communism. I oppose dictatorship in any form, even if it’s by the majority of the people, which is what Communism theoretically is, although never realized. The temptation for the leader to co-opt the power for themselves & cronies was/is too much to resist. Power corrupts. That’s its fatal flaw, aside from the obvious one that it shares with Political Correctness. It’s a political system suitable only for an intellectual exercise for P.C. Utopians, IMHO.
Now let’s look at the extreme Right, Fascism, law & order taken to an extreme. Isn’t this really where Bush lies? The parallels between the behavior of the Nazis in the early years of their rise to power, and that of Bush & Co. are frightening. Fascism as a political system is not suitable for anything, not even as an intellectual exercise for paranoic elitists…
So I don’t believe they are that close together, however I do believe that potential dictators have no particular ideological ties, save the ideology of expediency & convenience towards maintenance of power.
Posted by kenmo on Aug 13, 2004 at 7:29 AM Ken,
you’re a fool, and the worst kind of fool. A fool who doesn’t realize he’s a fool. To everyone else, there’s another fool to be removed this November. Don’t argue with these people, go around them and win anyway. Real people will listen and think. The fools will always be fools.
Posted by Matilda on Aug 13, 2004 at 8:19 AM Actually, Kenmo, I do understand the points you made and agree (I also think there’s a good reason the Soviet Union fell after seventy years, the Biblical three score and ten which makes a full human life: if one lifetime was not enough for this system to deliver the goods, why wait longer? After all, it promised nothing beyond this life, no heav en or hell. By 1985 even the leaders were sick of it).
My calling Bush a communist is a joke, sorta. If his friends can call liberal Democrats communists when they are not, why can’t we throw it back at him? While I’m at it, I think I’ll call him a hemorrhoid.
Another way to place fascism versus communism is that the communist is extreme in asserting the society over the individual, whereas the fascist asserts extreme egoism over the society. I gather this is somehow connected to the Nietzchean idea that everything happens exactly the same way, over and over, forever, so why not steal what you want? Progress is an illusion to the fascist, a fetish to the communist.
Posted by Evolver on Aug 13, 2004 at 9:56 AM Bill
The only thing Bin Laden is killing these days is time. Waiting for the Pakistani government to yank him out of that safe house he’s stashed in hooked up to a dialysis machine for the Bush administration’s October surprize. I can see Dubya’s smirk now as he says,“We got him” at the Republican convention. It will be Rove’s piece de resistance.
Posted by Eliot Rosewater on Aug 13, 2004 at 12:39 PM amerikans are nothing but a bunch of mass-murdering PIGS. They are cowards who love to do their killing from 30,000 feet, or from behind the nearest rock. Bushwackers is the amerikan term for this. Your entire history is drenched in the blood of your MILLIONS of innocent victims. What a cruel joke to say you have ‘liberated’ people from despots and dictators…these despots and dictators were put into power and supported in the murder of their own people by amerika. I cheer everytime I hear of one of your mercenaries being blown away…and I hope to do much more cheering in the future. The rest of the planet will know no peace until you scum-sucking pigs are wiped from the face of the planet. Burn in hell!
Posted by Brian Tilley on Aug 13, 2004 at 3:16 PM “Jorge - Sudan is a huge tragedy! I note that the *US* (where is France on this?) is pushing for a solution there.”
Ken you are one major brainwashed prejudiced idiot. Stop watching that crap American tv and you might finally end up with a sense of what is happenning in the world: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3543660.stm
Posted by MikeG on Aug 13, 2004 at 3:56 PM Why aren’t we liberating the Kurds in Turkey? The Turks have been employing a policy of genocide (with chemical weapons) against them for years! Why not N Korea? Why not the #1 violator of human rights in the WORLD, Saudi Arabia? Why aren’t we in Iran, who we now know allowed 9/11 hijackers to pass without stamping their passports, thus making it easier for them to enter the US? 140,000 troops in Iraq=inability to invade REAL terrorist countries. What about our own genocide in Lebanon? How about Nicaragua, condemned by the world court of justice and UN security council, ignored and vetoed by the US? Why did we ignore Iraq when Iran asked for intervention because of their use of chemical weapons? Ken is a poor fool, an ignorant zealot, and needs our nurturing, not attacks. And yes, the birth of the Bush family fortune was in Nazi money. By the way, Iraq was fabricated by Britain. There was no natural or ethnic border or bond until they created it from part of Persia which they colonized.
Posted by Master P on Aug 13, 2004 at 4:15 PM In his memoir, “A World Transformed,” written five years ago, George Bush Sr. wrote the following to explain why he didn’t go after Saddam Hussein at the end of the Gulf War.
“Trying to eliminate Saddam…would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible…. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq…. There was no viable “exit strategy” we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations’ mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land.”
Posted by Master P on Aug 13, 2004 at 4:19 PM Bless you KV…I miss you.
In GALAPAGOS humans de-evolve into seal like animals that still have a sense of humor.
I doubt whether all humans have senses of humor- either those with them have evolved, or those who lack it are some sort of mutants.
Chekhov, Twain, and you have the talent to mix the tragic and the comic as the same…two ideas into harmony- Aristotle’s definition of inteligence.
Our politics, media, etc. seem to be one minded.
Bless you, Mr. V. As life has bashed me and the ones I love about, I have found comfort in your work.
Posted by KV Fan on Aug 13, 2004 at 4:52 PM I personally think Kurt Vonnegut is brilliant, but I understand that those of you with more conservative views may hesitate to really pay attention to anything we liberals say.
So I direct you to the Esquire article written by Ron Reagon, son of former President Ronald Reagon:
http://www.esquire.com/cgi-bin/printtool/print.cgi?pages=5&filename;=/feature es/articles%
“We can embrace a lie, or we can restore a measure of integrity to our government.” - Ron Reagon
Posted by Victoria on Aug 13, 2004 at 5:06 PM Ken-
I was kind of with you in terms of trying to approach the discussion rationally. That was until you wrote:
“Laura - Do you (or can any reasonable person) believe the election in FL was “rigged”? The fact is that it was close, and could have gone either way. That does not seem to meet the criteria of “rigged” to me.”
I don’t know it it was rigged. But I know a LOT of reasonable people who think that it was possible.Then you wrote: “Linking Bush to Hitler via Christianity? I still believe this is a reprehensible statement. I wonder if Jews that suffered under Hitler would see the comparison?”
My wife is Jewish, and knows Holocaust survivors. We spend lots of time in Holland and talk to lots of people who are grandchildren of people who experienced the war. These people point out the parallels in Hitler’s methods to Bush’s. Maybe Bush has not reached the intensity of 1942, but many think that he is about where Hitler was in 1939. Now, before you scoff…..
I’m sure that you don’t see these things, which is why you hold your opinions. I’m sure that you think that these assertions are ridiculous. But the people making these assertions are not fringe consiracy theorists. This is mainstream thought in most of the world outside the U.S. I doubt I can say anything to make you believe me. But please believe me, the news that you see in the U.S. is only a portion of the news seen in the rest of the world. Go to cnn dot com. They have two versions of the news: one for the U.S. and one that they call international. And that’s the self same organization. You sound like a reasonable person Ken. But you, like most Americans, are not exposed to all of the facts. The descendants of German soldiers that I talked to were also lied to, when told that they had been attacked by Poland. Most Germans did not fight out of evil intent, they fought because they believed the deceptions of their leaders.
For my part, I HAVE given up. No matter how many times I put facts, from solid sources, in front of hard core Bushites, they have no response, but yet maintain their same opinion. I don’t get it. Some of the facts come straight from the writings of Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, and Cheney. I give up. I’ll take my cue from the Germans who saw the writing on the wall and left Germany in 1939 when they had the chance. I love my country, and think that our form of government is one of the best in the world. One of my political heroes is Thomas Jefferson, and I think that he would be as discouraged as Vonnegut.
Posted by Marc on Aug 13, 2004 at 5:26 PM This is dedicated to the victims of the Great Satan and the Devil Bushnigger in New York City
Bushnigger Bushnigger
He flies through the air
The fruit of the loom
He’ll steal your underwearBushnigger Bushnigger
And his cohorts
All woman except for
The skidmarks in his shortsBushnigger Bushnigger
Turn’n awful reddish
The little ball snifter
Has a shit fetishBushnigger Bushnigger
The whine’n ass bitch
Likes to play baseball
But he’d rather catch than pitchBushnigger Bushnigger
The cocksuck’n queer
Stick a funnel in his ass
And fill it fulla beerBushnigger Bushnigger
The dicklick’n whore
Sucks a big fat nigger dick
Then he sucks some more...you gotta admit…attacking the coup backers in pasty-face Powells Pentagon stronghold was cool though…somewhat akin to storming the Bastille
Posted by The Karma Bandit on Aug 13, 2004 at 5:56 PM Thank you, Mr. Vonnegut. We love you, too. We librarians need your encouragement. It gets lonely out here sometimes, particularly in a city like Charleston.
But, unlike others, I don’t think the answer is to move. I am old enough to remember the dark days of segregation, before the Civil Rights movement. What hardships those courgeous people endured to fight for freedoms that would lift up us all. They showed us the way out of darkness, and we should not forget it. We need to stand up and speak out, not run or hide. We need to empower our children to do the same.
And yes, librarians do stand up to bullies, we are often extremely liberal, many of us marched against past and present wars, and we proudly count many GLBT folks amoung our ranks. We librarians live everyday surrounded by the best and most noble ideas of civilization, as well as the worst. Maybe we are just naive. Or maybe our surroundings give us faith that good does triumph over bad, if we are brave enough to believe in the Good, and in ourselves.
Posted by Laura C. on Aug 13, 2004 at 5:57 PM Great piece by Vonnegut, cutting through the smoke and getting right to the core as he always has. When anyone objects that Bush would have won Florida by *any* recount, much less *every* recount, we need to insist that there were thousands of African Americans who were denied the right to vote. Often I think that the Butterfly and Chad fiascos were deliberately contrived as ways to take attention away from the statewide crime committed by the malignancy known as the Republican Party, counting, as they always do, on a public with a taste for the superficial and no appetite for the deep.
My only objection is not to the article, but to an ad alongside for the “Bush Joker Card.” That is an insult to jokers who have long played a valuable role in many societies, Western and Native American and perhaps more—from several characters in Shakespeare to Kurt Vonnegut himself. George Bush is null and void of any value to anyone outside the corporate boardrooms of Halliburton, Harken, and their criminal ilk. Let’s not confuse a joker for a lackey and dunce.
Posted by John on Aug 13, 2004 at 6:01 PM The America I love is still alive when we can haave a vigorous debate about an essay by one of America’s great literary minds. Now is no time to despair. We need to take heart from struggles like those of our librarians.
Vonnegut is right about books being the only way to get any information. Its too bad TV and the internet are the main media of communication now. I think there was a time when we had a lot more respect for learning and erudition. Molly Ivins has called Bush’s anti-intellectualism symptomatic of Texan provincialism. But its more that that. Its intellectual laziness, accomodated by out-of-control capitalism. And its not a Texan, but an American phenomenon.
Another thing, and the 200 election brings it to the forefront: There seems to have been a time when there was an agreement about what “facts” were. Maybe the newspapers formed a consensus, that was occasionally checked by academia, to ensure that, disagreements aside, there would be a place to go back and check the facts. But now, we have two sides dealing with two different sets of facts! The liberals are reading Grag Pallast’s The Best democracy money can buy, and the right probably preferred Toobin’s Too Close to Call, even though it wasn’t a stunning Bush-endorsement, both of which found that the results of the election favored their respective “sides”. I’m not going to wait for twenty years until the presidential papers are unsealed. I want the truth now, a real investigation thats non partisan. I don’t really care who won. I don’t like either of them. I liked not having a president for those three weeks. But we need to get together to decide that we need a consensus on the facts.
Just some issues I see in need of raising.
God Bless You Mr. Vonnegut. Your wit is not lost on all of us.
Posted by Rockero420 on Aug 13, 2004 at 6:15 PM I am glad there are people like Ken, otherwise we could get too comfortable. My only worry is when people like Ken get power to exert control over other people’s lives. Around the world ( and I have friends in Iran and Europe, India and the Far East) they also worry for me and the future of our country. Peace
Posted by Vincent G Thomas on Aug 13, 2004 at 7:03 PM Excellent article. Bush must go !! He’s the idiot son of an asshole.
Posted by Paul pilot 18 on Aug 13, 2004 at 7:33 PM RE: Bush and Hitler as christians.
What Vonnegut meant by both Bush and Hitler being christian was that many people dismiss negative remarks against Bush because “Bush is christian and christian people wouldn’t do bad things!” (I’m not kidding, I’ve heard this argument many times)...
Vonnegut was not trying to say that Bush is bad because he’s Christian. He was saying that being Christian doesn’t inherently make Bush good.
Jesus Christ you right-wingers are dullards.
Posted by Fitzix on Aug 13, 2004 at 8:38 PM Yep., contrary to some opinions - such as out arse licking prime minister John Dubbaya Howard., there are lots of people all around the world who just hate Americans - in the most terminal sense of the word.
Sure there are lots of decent Bush hating Americans about, but I get the feeling that people have kind of given up on the idea of “individuals with consciences” and they have collectively lumped all Americans together under the concept of “all Americans ought to be shot on sight”.
Personally the quicker that a militarially led civil war much akin to Frances revolution, takes place and all corruption (as far as possible) is hunted down and killed from within the country, the happier the rest of the all the people in the world will be.
Posted by Shane on Aug 13, 2004 at 10:28 PM I think most people would agree that the best way to win hearts and minds…is a full stomach,
clean water..adequate sanitary systems.. build
schools.. we can do that all over the world…
and it will be cheaper than one goddamm fighter
plane or missile that is meant to destroy and kill…!! we can’t kill all of the enemies of this country or persuade those that hate us that we are not evil..but it is awfully difficult to recruit people who have full stomaches and whose children are safe from 500 lb bombs being dropped on them to line up to strap bomb belts on.
Posted by Howard on Aug 14, 2004 at 6:24 AM Lately, I’ve been trying to think of a way to become formally ‘stateless’ and still do my job (which requires a passport). Mr Vonnegut has been my favorite author since I was thirteen. His willingness to pledge allegiance to the librarians and others (who still believe in the principles that I have spent my life being proud of) is already helping me find a way to continue to be an American and not renounce either my citizenship or my membership in the human race.
I find the blind acceptance of the current administration’s propaganda, as represented in the first comment to be sad and bode ill for the future of the country. It is interesting that the Germans (with whom I live and work) are perhaps quicker to see the parallels between Bush and Hitler than north americans seem to be.
Posted by tomme on Aug 14, 2004 at 9:57 AM Shane’s comment - ‘there are lots of people all around the world who just hate Americans - in the most terminal sense of the world’ - deserves a reply. Most people in fact make a distinction between America as a state and Americans as people. The state is justly hated, more and more so with every passing day, because of the acts committed by it, or in its name, which range from mistaken and misguided all the way to outright apalling and amoral. The myth of America as a great and benevolent beneficiary of mankind - well, that myth doesn’t play anywhere, and hasn’t for a long time, with not a chance in hell of resurrecting it now that the present administration has spelt out its world-view in unmistakable terms.
As for Americans as people, the vast majority of them - they are not so much hated as resented. Not for their prosperity and living standards, but for their tacit complicity in American policy. They are to be held accountable for their ignorance of what is being done in their name. The good life that they enjoy, even in the most economically troubled times, is paid for by large parts of the rest of the world and its people.
Posted by gotgat54 on Aug 14, 2004 at 12:06 PM i feel compelled to add to my post of a little earlier. Reading through this thread, I was struck by the remarks of Ken, and the flame-war which he provoked; his is an attempt to maintain a reasonable position by carefully clinging to a few factoids, myths and illusions, and refusing to study the real information that is out there.
I’m from India, and have frequently travelled in the US. I’ve met a lot of Kens. They don’t want to know. Too many cherished delusions would collapse in the most traumatic way. Too many of the comforts and taken-for-granted goodies that Americans enjoy would carry a permanent taint.
I think ‘The Truman Show’ was the perfect metaphor for the America that Ken and his ilk occupy. Even as a visitor, I’ve felt its spell. Mind-warping. A huge bubble that preserves the ‘American way of life’ by shutting out bad news, bad guys from elsewhere, bad influences, and most of reality. The 9-11 terrorists flew those planes right through that bubble.
Posted by gotgat54 on Aug 14, 2004 at 2:22 PM Napalm may have come from Harvard, but Bush went to Yale.
Posted by Paul Gowder on Aug 15, 2004 at 1:52 AM Ray Bradbury, Kurt Vonnegut, George Orwell;
If these people were, (and are), that clueless, why the hell would every high school english class make it a reading assignment? It is the American people’s right to think, voice their opinions, and not censor, or try to disclose information to the public.
If Republicans are so pissed off at people expressing their views via mainstream media markets like big screen documentaries, than they have every right to make a movie about the evils of indecent radio, free speech, and since the patriot act, most other basic civil rights and constitutional admenments.
They could tell us “war is peace” and “freedom is slavery” and half the population would think it’s God’s will that we believe it to be true.
And so it goes…
Posted by D Spencer on Aug 15, 2004 at 3:28 AM The Bush Hitler analogy actually goes a lot further than just the fact that Bush’s grandfather’s company was dissolved for trading with Nazi germany (in 1942, after Pearl Harbor) or Schwarzenegger’s admiration for Hitler and his father’s membership in the NSDAP (the Nazi party). You have to know a bit of German history though.
You may have heard of the Reichstag fire - the German parliament was torched, and this was the bases for the writing of an Ermächtigungsgesetz - a law giving Hitler full powers.
Reichstagsfeuer is to September 11th as
Ermächtigungsgesetz is to Patriot Act.TIPs, Patriot, Carnivore, Magic Lantern, Echelon, Department of Homeland security… figure it out, America is being transformed into a police state.
Posted by Anonymous on Aug 15, 2004 at 10:52 AM Iraqi’s have been dying for years. The US supported Saddam for many years while he was torturing and killing his own people. This current war is just an excuse, it has nothing to do with wanting to free the oppressed of the world.
Posted by Susan on Aug 15, 2004 at 4:33 PM As the author of ‘Timequake 2’ is perhaps qualified to point out, “history repeats itself” is a phrase which has been repeatedly uttered throughout history. It might even be true! This statement might even be true, given the right circumstances. So might that one.
And so far, my statements in this response have more substantive ‘truth’ to them than several of George Bush Jr.‘s public addresses, even when they are combined and collated with Colin Powell’s multimedia presentation before the U.N. wherein he outlined all of the ‘weapons of mass destruction’ we would soon be discovering in Iraq.
What was I just saying?
In retrospect, pardon my bulging opinion, but WW1 and WW2 did not exactly end beautifully and our entried into both wars were by no means ‘gung-ho’. And frankly, I think America deserves to return to the relative peace and docility which can only be experienced in political isolation.
As Finnish fisherman and oft-called ‘Eco-Terrorist’ Pentti Linkola said in his chapter ‘Humanflood’, “...I went through the most bombed-out city in the world, Dresden. It was terrifying in its ugliness and filth, overstuffed to the point of suffocation—a smoke-filled, polluting nest where the first spontaneous impression was that another vaccination from the sky wouldn’t do any harm. Who misses all those who died in the Second World War? Who misses the twenty million executed by Stalin? Who misses Hitler’s six million Jews? Israel creaks with overcrowdedness; in Asia minor, overpopulation creates struggles for mere square meters of dirt. The cities throughout the world were rebuilt and filled to the brim with people long ago, their churches and monuments restored so that acid rain would have something to eat through. Who misses the unused procreation potential of those killed in the Second World War? Is the world lacking another hundred million people at the moment? Is there a shortage of books, songs, movies, porcelain dogs, vases? Are one billion embodiments of motherly love and one billion sweet silver-haired grandmothers not enough?”
We live in an America, now, where a wifeless, childless, poor and working American man gets to grow old paying taxes to raise the children of the more beautiful, attractive upper class men and women. And the spur? The children aren’t even born and raised in a eugenic environment. They’re just containers for the function of capital inheritance. And Joe Poor’s children, should he ever have them? Even if they are top stock, they’re just canon-fodder, as K.Vonnegut, Jr. points out (and he’s right.)
If we don’t install a stern eugenics program in America as we had before getting sucked into the superstitious and strange, hun-hating world of WW2, we may just lose the biological impetus behind our strong national socialism, starting right in the heartland of America’s working class.
In order to postpone this chain reaction, we should forge a new national socialist worker’s party in America, now, while the time is ripe for change and unity. Meet me in the beer-hall at eight, I’ll be hiding under the table reading ‘Player Piano’, wondering how all of these humanoid photocopies are going to be given ‘jobs’ and ‘food’ situated elsewheres on this shrinking planet, their bodies mingling, comingling, copopulating, copulating, and reproducing in a domino-effect that is sure to eventually, inevitably stifle if not my oxygen supply then surely my imagination as to how to stop them.
In order to postpone this chain reaction, we should embrace and bless war, sweet war, wherever and in whatever form it may take, so that it might deliver us from the evil clutches of that faceless, cowardly villain, that ‘Humanity’.
—Gabriel Arthur Petrie
Posted by Gabriel Arthur Petrie on Aug 15, 2004 at 9:06 PM all poli-ticks asside, this is clearly not one of his great essays. it started with a good idea: librarians as an example of average people standing up for american ideals. but from there it spun out like a baloon loosing air and didn’t really end up anywhere interesting. KV did, however, write a great article just a few months ago called “Cold Turkey” http://www.spinninglobe.net/kurtvonn.htm
Posted by david on Aug 15, 2004 at 9:27 PM I believe the votes in Florida were rigged, but as it is,and much to my disliking, Bush is the President. I do not try to compare Mr. Bush to any particular person in history, I only laugh thinking what our history books will tell of Mr. Bushes reign in office. Surely it will not be that he was this great Christain man, only looking out for the betterment of his country. Not believing in abortion does not make you a Christain.
As far as the was in Iraq, we are there now and must finish what we have started. I am just glad I can sleep at night, knowing I was not the one who ordered our men to sacrifice their lives for the love of money.
I hope every one will continue to pray for our trooops in Iraq and they come home safely to their families.
Posted by Jan on Aug 15, 2004 at 10:26 PM I love the photograph accompanying this essay. Allow me to analyse the symbolism present.
The papers on the floor are the histories of World War One and World War Two, face-up where they can be read.
The pencil is historical revisionism, probably in the form of holocaust revisionism. A long, fresh pencil, sharp and ready to be used, barely used at all.
The face-down book is the war tent housing the soldiers who actually fought in those wars, the only ones who could really know what really went on. The book is face-down because their histories cannot really be known to anyone but them. Unless you were there, it is impossible to know the real honest-to-Hoover truth.
The computer equipment is the current global super-war of monitored information, hunt-and-peck accusation, and encrypted secrecy. Those documents on the desk are obviously encrypted.
The desk itself is both the elevated risk of terrorism and the heightened sense of awareness. It is also lofty ambitions and teetering, imminent self-destruction, propped up partly by a chair whose shadow-occupant may excuse themselves and pull out at any moment, if they were really there.
The flanneled suspect is obviously a freemason who had nothing to do with anything that’s going on at the desk (do you really think he went through the trouble of pushing in his chair while being searched,) and was obviously just walking past. It can’t yet be proven he had anything to do with anything that’s on the floor or desk, but that’s the least of the worries of his policeman, who is busy searching the man’s underarms.
The policeman is an agent for an as-yet-unabbreviated agency, staking out the information district, focusing on the computer area, nabbing anybody who comes anywhere close to the scene of the crime, that being the virtual vortex of information. He just wants answers, just wants the truth, and is dedicated to finding out what the truth may be, but his success is forever lost as long as the truth has been secluded, for having once been secluded, the truth is forever destroyed. Only the obvious and mundane can be of any use to him, at least in a court of law.
Enter our judge, the librarian. She isn’t protesting the interaction between the two men—not that there’s anything wrong with that. Instead, she’s observing the facts and trying to understand the case, and discern how to go about trying the defendant, whomever that may be in this situation. Is the defendant going to be the computer? Does the librarian have to play investigator into the investigation? Can we or can’t we trust that agent to perform a decent and constitutionally sound investigation?
Only the audience can tell, for only they were there during all these events: the scene of the future crime; the scene of the apprehension; the scene of the investigation; the scene of the internal investigation; the scene of the internal investigation probe; the scene of the trial; and they will be the only audience as well during the scene of the final judgement. They sit around the auditorium, schoolhouse, churchhouse, or courthouse (or the town hall which may serve as all four,) waiting to see what might happen. They are like disciples of christ, but there are far too many for them to all be special. Perhaps they are the asylum of Buddhas, countless Buddhas throughout history, all present to see this moment go down? What about our vantage point? Are we a book on the shelf, too? Are we a disciple? Are we a Buddha?
Or are we on the other side of that computer monitor screen? Or are we peeking out from under another tent-book? Or from the pages of a revised history? What about the pages upon the desk? Are these it? Is this it?
Is… this… it?
—Gabriel Arthur Petrie
Posted by Gabriel Arthur Petrie on Aug 15, 2004 at 10:32 PM While cleaning out my basement, I ran across an old high school copy of Orwell’s “1984”. I sat thumbing through it for a while, then it hit me. Maybe he was just twenty years premature in his choice of a title. “War is Peace” is a lot scarier these days…. Maybe anyone who ever read this book should reread it, and those who have not yet read it should make it a priority.
Posted by jim on Aug 16, 2004 at 2:07 AM As one who has lived in the US and has strong family and emotional ties to the US ; I regretfully remind you that the damage done to the image of America by the actions and attitudes of the Bush semi-theocracy , internationally ; is so pervasive , that it may take decades to overcome. Too many people in the world are not aware of the fact that the discrimination, religious fanatacism and arrogance of Karl Rove et al, is not the face of the average American .
I am .
Posted by Mr. H.(Bart) Vincelette on Aug 16, 2004 at 3:42 AM It is a photograph. The people in that picture are @!#(*6 real, too, ‘man’! They’re real people, too! As long as they are so spotlighted by the divine light eminating from the eye hovering just overhead, intruders that they are, they are as animated as you or I. You are animated, aren’t you? So, doesn’t that mean you’re just an illustration, too? Think about it, and write ‘truth’ upon your brow.
Posted by Gabriel Arthur Petrie on Aug 16, 2004 at 8:14 AM Wow. Refreshing to the see the truth in print.
Makes it all the more urgent that the electronic media is siezed and redistributed to individuals and organizations that are interested in presenting facts and balanced viewpoints from all affected parties.
Posted by Anonymous on Aug 16, 2004 at 1:53 PM What you’ve just wrote….is one of the most insanely idiotic things I’ve ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent “article” was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone is now dumber for having read it. I award you nothing, and may God have mercy on your soul.
:)
Posted by Atom on Aug 16, 2004 at 7:56 PM On the Bush-Hitler comparison:
Michael Parenti gave a lecture (i heard it on alternative radio) on this theme. He points out that many “orthodox” historians like to write about who supported the Nazis (Prescott Bush and the like included), but not many write about who the Nazis supported. Who was it? The capitalists. And looking at the behavior and ideologies of these two men, the comparisons become more obvious.
Some historians have held the National socialists responsible for the burning of the Reichstag. Some contemporary historians have held the Neocons responsible for the tumbling of the towers.
I read somewhere that the CIA is much sneakier than that. The quote was something like, “We don’t blow stuff up. We just propagate the right message in the right place at the right time.” So I think its quite possible that Hitler got a copy of the protocols of the Elders of Zion from a CIA propagandist, and Bin Laden got a copy of the same document while a youth in Saudi Arabia from a similar source.
Posted by Rockero420 on Aug 16, 2004 at 8:04 PM I love KV’s novels and some of his essays—but frankly, when I read this article, I was sure it was another internet hoax. I hoped it was a hoax. I wondered why it was addressed to librarians, as if they are the custodians of our constitutional freedoms. Could it be that Mr. V. wrote to the attention of librarians, because he identified them as a literate group, one likely to print out and pass on the article, and because his patronization played to their collective belief that they control the future of good literature and, could it be so, the freedom of speech? Truly, each of us is such a custodian, and we have historically taken that responsibility very seriously. By couching his political comments in such a “thank you”, he cheapened any impact he may have hoped for, in my view, and certainly made me suspicious of his other statements.
So, I am very disappointed. It’s not a particularly well-written or clever article, neither funny nor thought-provoking (as I have expected Mr. V to be), and it is much too contrived—pushing hot buttons to make a point. Making scary statements purely for shock value. It reads more like bad headline news. I had thought Mr. V to be a wiser man.
Posted by chris on Aug 17, 2004 at 12:58 AM Ken, pull your head out of your ass and face up to what the world thinks of you. Unprovoked war is wrong no matter who starts it.
Posted by Phee on Aug 17, 2004 at 9:07 AM Chris,
A little skepticism is a good thing but “Making scary statements purely for shock value.” Are you sure you’re not confusing Mr. Vonnegut with Tom “Duct tape and plastic wrap” Ridge?
Posted by Montana Wildhack on Aug 17, 2004 at 10:36 AM I’m afraid our worst tendencies in the face of an anti-intellectual like W come to the fore. I am glad to discuss ideas, and actions our country uses to promote rational policies. Where did I read, someone actually said “we bombed the Japs and they have never bothered us again!” Um, yeah. You see, the problem with people like W Bush is as follows: I don’t read because I am a millionare.. I can pay people to read for me… not estimating how many times people may change what is actually written. It’s the “don’t shoot the messenger” fear. And we all have heard what W does to people who don’t agree with him; W is neither compassionate nor conservative,he is RADICAL. When he used the word “crusade” about going into the middle east, it was no MISTAKE. Think about it. There are many Christians, as well as Muslims, with loooong memories. W is the latest link in that dangerous chain. VOTE OUT W.
Posted by John on Aug 17, 2004 at 11:51 AM Ken, You talk about Saddam killing his own people, but do you stop to think that we helped him? Who do you think gave him the weapons that he used on his people? There was a time when the United States was friendly with Saddam, and people of the current adminsitration were around then.
Also check out this exerpt from George Bush Sr.‘s memiors from 5 years ago explaining why he did not go after Saddam at the end of the Gulf War:
“Trying to eliminate Saddam…would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible…. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq…. There was no viable “exit strategy” we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations’ mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land.”
Posted by Nicole on Aug 17, 2004 at 1:45 PM Montana— Both shock tactics are wrong—the errors of one does not exempt those of the other.
And again, my disappointment is in having Mr. V use tactics that are beneath what I thought was his dignity.
Thanks for the comment.
Posted by chris on Aug 17, 2004 at 2:59 PM Chris: you’ve taken a sincere statement from the heart, and read it as a convoluted tactic. Kurt V’s piece was simple, cogent and effective; didn’t have to be profound, ‘well-written’ or ‘clever’. Give me someone who can summon up pithy utterances in the wisdom of his years, and spare me your clever writers. The very fact that he provoked such a storm of response, a seemingly endless thread, says something for the man’s power to say the obvious in the most powerful way: needs doing, because we’re losing sight of the obvious.
Now about the librarians: do you honestly believe Kurt V is reduced to doing an end-run around the Patriot Act by sneaking his material to us through librarians? Has it occurred to you that yes, they and others like them may in fact be one of the last surviving, dogged, formidable bastions of intellectual liberty? ‘tactics that are beneath what I thought was his dignity’. If Kurt V is driven to such tactics in today’s America, that fact alone makes a statement more powerful than anything he could write.
Posted by gotgat54 on Aug 17, 2004 at 3:13 PM Ken, exactly which of Vonnegut’s books are you describing as “fiction”? The points he makes in all his texts are utterly real. Please, please, don’t be naive; we are in fact a hated nation around the world and we are led by a man who lost the popular vote. If I recall, 46,000 senior citizens voted for Buchanan when they thought they were voting for Gore, so let’s not pretend that our President is the man America wanted. I only pray that he doesn’t swindle us by taking a second term, because I’m willing to bet we’ll have a reaction similar to the Revolutionary age.
Posted by owen on Aug 17, 2004 at 3:44 PM Florida recount. As Ronald Reagan once said, “facts are stubborn things”. Here is a quote from George Stephanopoulos and some additional facts about the Miami Herald/USA Today BDO Seidman recount.
This week, another tranche of the Miami Herald/USA Today media recount became public. Here’s the view of former Clinton aide George Stephanopoulos: “The bottom line is that this undercuts the Democrats’ argument that the Republicans stole the election by having the Supreme Court stop the count. Democrats will still be able to say somehow that they were robbed because of unfair ballots . . . but they can’t say that the Supreme Court took away their rights and would have cost them the election.”The myth’s purpose of course is crudely political: to perpetuate the sense that George W. Bush is an illegitimate occupant of the White House. The facts that keep piling up continue to reach a more concrete conclusion: George Bush won.
The Miami Herald/USA Today recount wasn’t the only one launched in the wake of the Florida vote. Next month, a consortium of papers (including this one) will issue its own findings on disputed ballots that indicated either no choice for President (“undervotes”) or more than one (“overvotes”). But the Herald study, conducted with the accounting firm BDO Seidman, is relevant because it counted all of the votes that the last-minute Florida Supreme Court ruling had ordered counted statewide. That count was ended when seven U.S. Supreme Court Justices held that the lack of a single counting standard violated Constitutional protections.
What the Herald’s reporters and accountants found was that if Al Gore had indeed gotten every dimple, pinprick, mark or hanging chad counted—as he demanded—George W. Bush’s lead in Florida wouldn’t have shrunk, but instead would have swelled to 1,665 votes from 537 votes. Under other conceivable counting standards, the Bush lead would have held. The one counting method that the Herald found led to a three-vote Gore lead is one that 23 out of 24 states that impose standards for manual recounts have rejected. In other words, Al Gore’s desperate attempt to manufacture votes out of thin air in Florida would still have fallen short if he had gotten his way.It’s too much to expect from rabid partisans, but it would be appropriate if these facts led to some reappraisals. Indeed, if anyone ignored valid vote counts it was Al Gore’s scorched-earth corps of litigators who for the first time ever challenged a Presidential election in court, demanded recounts only in four urban counties controlled by Democrats, and insisted that indented ballots that had never been counted under Florida law be considered valid votes.
Four judges with Democratic Party backgrounds—Charles Burton, Terry Lewis, Sanders Sauls and Nikki Clark—all rejected the Gore arguments in whole or in part. If the U.S. Supreme Court hadn’t intervened we have no doubt that Team Gore would still be arguing in some court, somewhere.
Posted by Glenn on Aug 17, 2004 at 4:00 PM Yea, because due process and checks and balances are BULLSHIT! Let’s try and put a lid on that crap in the future. The supreme court stopping a recount isn’t a ‘balance’ if you ask me, it’s ridiculous.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 17, 2004 at 4:33 PM It was asked “Did the Nazis remove brutal dictators and spend billons of marks rebuilding the terrorized country?” They tried. But the Soviet army was more successful at fighting back than the Iraqis were. Attacking Stalin and lying to his own people to win support didn’t make Hitler virtuous any more than attacking Iraq and lying to his own people to win support made Bush virtuous.
Posted by Chris Kueny on Aug 17, 2004 at 5:11 PM http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/186510_herbert17.html
KV says “ALMOST” hated as much as Nazi’s and he makes a good point. Ken and friends attack KV’s statements as outlandish. I wonder what insight they have that the allegations aren’t true in some sense. There doesn’t have to be one Big Brain in charge of things to have a political culture that is raping the U.S. of many of the things that it was founded on, not the least of which is freedom. The scariest part is that the right doesn’t even realize fully what kind of tragedy is being perpetrated by current policies. At least I hope not. Either way, the warning signs are so obvious they’re hard to believe. I think I’m going to vomit.
That’s my opinion. I am of the opinion that I am going to vomit; and that other stuff I said, are my opinions. And if I disagreed with Conover he would likely attack my grammar as though it were relevant. Thankfully, my opinion on this agrees with the die hard haters that post to In These Times. Not all of you, by any means, love ya most. But some of you… holy moly.
I’ve posted unpopular opinions here before and been attacked too Ken. Ryan Conover and friends are alot like those that came after me what with personal attacks and blind hatred for anyone who they even think disagrees with them. I disagree with Ken but this hate and name calling makes me dislike the scary posters I actually agree with (in regards to KV’s topic). I didn’t read every word posted by all but from what I did read Ken didn’t say anything nasty about anyone. Conover on the other hand takes it over the top in a way that is embarassing for me as someone who disagrees with Ken.
OK. Apparently I felt the need to go into scold mode. Oops. I can’t seem to post to these things without going off topic either.
anyway, check the link at the top of my post for more scary scary.
BTW I just looked at the KV piece today and couldn’t help but jump in. Forgive me if I missed something and am off base. I just really dislike hatefulness. Except when it’s against that Jackhole Lears UP YOUR’S JACKSON LEARS!! ha ha just kidding… no wait I really do think Jackson Lears is a jerk. ;) (damn, OT again!)
Posted by jefftaylor on Aug 17, 2004 at 9:17 PM Life is too short not to be “over-the-top”. Of course grammar matters, we all speak english, right? We all have at least high school educations, correct? Of course grammar matters Jeff Taylor. Why do you have to hate me when I have so much love to give? Comeon Jeff Taylor, just relax… take a vacation or something.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 17, 2004 at 10:46 PM it troubles me when someone as optimistic as kurt vonnegut starts talking about giving up. i think this is a very bad omen for us as a society. i myself am very disillusioned by what modern american culture has become, thanks to corporate influence, lying and cheating by our so called leaders, and simply a total disregard for other countries’ ancient cultures and ways. capitalism is not the answer; you hear it more and more. if so, why then do we continue to shove it down the throats of those who do not want it. and you have to admit, DEMOCRACY and CAPITALISM are perceived by many as one and the same: “democracy” for a good m any is the right to consume without conscience and to take whatever is not freely offered. once we have installed “democracy” in iraq we can freely manipulate the oil…it certainly isn’t the culture we cherish.
bush and his administration are all liars. they have sold us down the river so they may line their pockets with oil profits.
if voices like vonnegut’s become silence, we will be in deep shit. god help us
Posted by chester on Aug 17, 2004 at 11:03 PM KV make some very good points. No singular political outlook has amonopoly on truth.
Florida disenfrancised hundreds if not thousands of more than likely Democratic voters in 2000 and seems to be on that road again. That is the crux of the arguement.
If any Repubs are truely Christain, then your behavior would be vastly different that what we have seen to date. You should be ashamed.
Posted by David Cook on Aug 17, 2004 at 11:24 PM Bus is a “born-again”. Those people are nutty as fruitcakes.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 18, 2004 at 2:19 AM You’re totally right Ryan. Over the top is for the best. Glad everyone here cares enough to even think about politics. I was attacking you for attacking and there’s some hypocrisy in that.
——
yeah chester, i haven’t given up on Capitalism yet. I don’t see the relevance between Bush in power and an argument for abandoning our Democratic, Capitalist, part Socialist, and whatever else an Econonist would say is in the stew of ours. Your rejection of what you call capitalism is disturbing.
PAPER BALLOTS ONLY!
That’s right! Jefftaylor I said….
(on vacation)
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site?URL=http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/18 86510_herbert17.html
Posted by jefftaylor on Aug 18, 2004 at 5:51 AM Those that argue that the “estimated” 10,000 deaths of Iraqi civilians caused by the war and subsequent occupation show that President Bush and the United States are equal to hilter and nazi germany really need a wake up call. For the sake of argument let us say that the estimated 10,000 deaths is low and that 50,000 civilians died since the beginning of the war.
Free Prisoners Association of Iraq:
—uncovered 70 mass graves
—exhumed over 160,000 bodies
—Anfal massacre - over 180,000 kurds killedShia News: (please pay special attention to the photos of the dead children and tell us again how saddam was not such a bad guy)
— chemical bombs in 1988 killed over 5000 civilians in a FEW HOURS!
— Chemical bombs in 1991 used by “Chemical” ali on the Shias in Najaf and Karbala
— The war against Iran in 1980 in which hundreds of thousands of iraquis were killed and doubles of that number were handicapped or missingSundayherald.com
—1988 Anfal “ethnic cleansing” campaign, seized documents from iraqi security organisations show that 182,000 people murdered.
— Kuwait invasion of 1990. Iraqi soldiers tortured and executed people in Kuwait while looting the city
—killed political activists for over 30 years
—over 270 mass graves found in iraq containing tens of thousands of bodies
—UN Commission on human rights said saddam used, “widespread, systematic torture and the maintaining of decrees prescribing cruel and inhuman punishment as a penalty for offences.”
—massacre of 8000+ kurdish brzani tribe members in 1983There is so much more to write and I can’t fit it all in here. Additionally, it is factual that hitler killed millions of people. To make any such comparison of President Bush to either of these cruel, maniacal, and murderous dictators is just plain assinine.
Let us instead suffice to say that we agree/disagree with the war and feel that we are/are not safer because of it. That we do/do not feel that is was/was not worth the expense in American lives or money. Let us discuss facts and opinions without resorting to such dastardly and slanderous attacks as to compare ANY U.S. leader to the likes of the devil himself.
— 1993 Chemical bombs used against the Marsh Arabs
http://www.shianews.com/hi/middle_east/news_id/0000866.php
Posted by Tony on Aug 18, 2004 at 10:03 AM Additionally, have any of the detractors out there ever actually travelled to the region?
Have any of you actually seen what goes on over there or do you simply rely upon what CNN and their sympathizers such as that brahimi lady have to say?
I have been there and seen what it is like. I work closely with people have have come back from there as recently as 2 days ago. I have friends who are there still. I have friends who are going there soon.
Those that are making many of these accusations about how much we are hated, how any middle-easterner would be better off if we never came, etc… have absolutely no baseline from which to make these statements having never seen the region except for quick screen shots on the news edited to fit the “story” that the “reporter” wishes to convey.
If you really want to know, get on a plane and go over there. There are some tour groups out of England that would be happy to take you.
Tony
Posted by Tony on Aug 18, 2004 at 10:12 AM “— The war against Iran in 1980 in which hundreds of thousands of iraquis
were killed and doubles of that number were handicapped or missing”At that time, Iraq was being supported by the US, where was the criticism then by the US?
Posted by Susan on Aug 18, 2004 at 10:13 AM Susan,
Thank you for the expected retort. Here is the facts. I will attach links to documents obtained by GWU under the freedom of information act so that you can obtain actual information regarding the U.S. and the Iran-Iraq war if you so wish.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq47.pdf
Excerpt Para 4.
” The united states has concluded that the available evidence indicates that iraq has used lethal chemical weapons. The United States strongly condemns the prohibited use of chemical weapons wherever it occurs. There can be no justification for their use by any country.”http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq42.pdf
the State Department intervened to prevent a U.S. company from shipping 22,000 pounds of phosphorous fluoride, a chemical weapons precursor, to Iraq. Washington instructed the U.S. interests section to protest to the Iraqi government, and to inform the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that “we anticipate making a public condemnation of Iraqi use of chemical weapons in the near future,” and that “we are adamantly opposed to Iraq’s attempting to acquire the raw materials, equipment, or expertise to manufacture chemical weapons from the United States. When we become aware of attempts to do so, we will act to prevent their export to Iraq”
Scroll down to read US responses and how we worked with the UN to stop the war and chemical use:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/iraq43.pdf
Posted by Tony on Aug 18, 2004 at 10:36 AM That’s great you have all the facts. However, why did the US give them weapons at the same time they were condemning them? Why did they not try to overthrow Saddam then?
Posted by Susan on Aug 18, 2004 at 11:42 AM Tony,
Nice try, but you’re quoting lies: http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1263901,00.html.
Posted by MikeG on Aug 18, 2004 at 12:30 PM I don’t think that anyone is trying to say that Saddam was a good guy. I just don’t see how one country can police the whole world. It’s impossible. We are in way over our heads, and will have soldiers in Iraq for many years to come. We have no exit strategy, and now have the rest of the world hating us. As a direct result of our going to Iraq, thousands of Iraqis have died, hundreds of Americans have died, and many others. We have also opened up another land for terrorists to thrive in.
We didn’t even finish what we had started in Afghanistan! I know it’s not really in the news anymore, but people are dying there still everyday, and we have not come even close to finishing the job we started there. I think that we should have concentrated much longer in Afghanistan since that is where the terrorists were, and let weapon inspectors do their jobs.
Our actions are turning us into an imperialist nation that is hated in most of the world, and even here in the United States we are less free than we used to be! Unfortunately we tend to put too much trust in our government, and our government is taking advantage of us.
Posted by nicole on Aug 18, 2004 at 1:28 PM Just to let you know, I’m not from the US, I’m from Canada and I’d like to confirm that the rest of the world DOES think that Bush is a dictator. The US no longer represents any sort of liberating force, the war in Iraq was unjustified and my fellow citizens are afraid to enter the US for fear of being harrassed or imprisioned. We are very concerned because we are a neighbouring state and the restrictions on civil rights and borders affects us directly. Since 2001, the US has threatened our citizens (sometimes imprisioning/deporting them without proper cause or without following legal procedures as in the Arar case). The US ambassador to Canada threatened us with trade sanctions for not joining the war in Iraq because our Prime Minister was not convinced that the evidence for WMDs was strong enough to justify an attack on Iraq. So even Canadians have experienced how the US has become an international bully instead of a peacemaker.
Posted by Emily on Aug 18, 2004 at 3:08 PM I’m glad,you know about how horrific and dreadfull was the Baath party.Only you seem to ignore who was at the begining,the very good friend of it and who made him so strong,and…
dreadfull,but that was on the time,it was battling Khomeini’s Iran and in those times it was a friendly partner(though it was using a
non-ficticious WMD).Those times are to forget about nowaday,aren’t they?no doubt Ken,you have the superior ability to run a great carrier at the fair and balanced Fox news.
Posted by Aziz on Aug 18, 2004 at 4:36 PM I’m sorry, but you all seem to miss the point. KV is an icon of all that is American. From the fire bombing of Dresden to the farthest reaches of Tralfamadore, he used his black humor and wit to record the foibles of mere human beings. Why? Because he had hope. Hope that we, as mere humans, would see the senselessness of war(or greed or malice) for any reason. Alas, he has given up on us and that, my friends is a sad thing, indeed. From KV’s bio:
“In Breakfast(of Champions), Trout offers Bill three wishes and the chance for freedom. The wise bird returns to his cage, which Trout calls the smartest choice of all because then Bill will always have something left to wish for.” I’m afraid KV has nothing left to wish for from us.
Posted by KEVIN on Aug 18, 2004 at 6:08 PM I totally agree with Emily, but we all know nobody cares what Canada thinks. ;)
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 18, 2004 at 7:14 PM Although i have not read all of the comments made by you all, I am surprised to see the lack of interest in Vonneguts statments concerning hopelessness. His article speaks so powerfully to many peoples feelings of impotence in the politcal arena. He references Einstein and Twain as two people who in there lifetimes gave up on America. Is it not a shame that people are feeling this way in our times? Lastly on politics, never choose a side until the human cost and human suffering of the decision being made has been clearly thought out. To many times people simply quote talking points without considering the human cost.
Posted by chad on Aug 18, 2004 at 8:24 PM Bush-Kerry-Skull and Bones-Thule Society-Prescott Bush-Nazis-Illuminati-Zionist-Lubavitch Movement-Satanism
Kerry will carry on the war against Muslims for Israel, just as Bush did. How many times will Mossad get away with their deeds? Most Americans have no knowledge of Mossad, or what is in the Patriot Act.
“Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that.. I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”
— Ariel Sharon
Israeli Prime Minister, homicidal psychopath
Jewish Mafia member
Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001
NWO Watcher-Welcome to Enigma!
http://www.nwowatcher.com/
Posted by robert on Aug 19, 2004 at 7:08 AM Foreign Policy/Intelligence Columnist Andy Martin Says McGreevey Sex Scandal was Israeli Intelligence Operation
8/16/2004 8:49:00 AM
To: Assignment Desk, Daybook Editor
Contact: Andy Martin Worldwide Communications, 866-706-2639
NEW YORK, Aug. 16 /U.S. Newswire/—America’s most respected foreign policy/intelligence analyst, Out2.com’s Andy Martin, will publish a column and hold a news conference in New York today (Aug. 16) to disclose that the New Jersey sex scandal involving Gov. James McGreevey was really an Israeli intelligence operation gone sour.
NEWS CONFERENCE DETAILS:
Time/date: today (Aug. 16) at 1 p.m. EDT
Location: Southwest Corner of Fifth Avenue and 57th Street, New York City
“People have been confused by the McGreevey sex scandal,” says Martin. “But McGreevey’s dilemma is not a gay sex scandal. It is an Israeli intelligence operation gone sour. This is not a scandal about ‘sex.’ It is a scandal about ‘secrets.’
“McGreevey said he had sex. He did. Golan Cipel says he is not gay. He’s not. They are both right. Mr. Cipel was a junior Mossad case officer, originally posted to New York under official cover. The Mossad is well known for using human sex toys. McGreevey was lured into a relationship that was intended to penetrate New Jersey’s homeland defenses.
“Since 9/11 there has been barely suppressed anger at the fact Israeli intelligence knew about the hijackers and said nothing. Israelis have found themselves under suspicion and restricted by some intelligence channels. The state homeland security position was seen as a back door way of spying on anti-terror preparations in the New York-New Jersey area, and possibly nationally.
“The media have focused on the wrong blackmail scheme. This was not a sexual blackmail situation, although threats and demands have been made. ‘Gay sex’ is being used to conceal the real nature of the betrayal. This was a blackmail scheme intended to place Golan Cipel in a position of intense interest to Israeli intelligence.
“I am asking the U.S. Attorney for New Jersey to refocus his investigation into a breach-of-security investigation instead of a sex scandal.
“Based on my extensive experience with foreign intelligence agencies, I think you will see Mr. Cipel, who is now exposed by his non-official cover, on a plane back to Israel very soon.
“Gov. McGreevey was a ‘fool for love,’ but the root cause of his weakness was his mistaken belief that Cipel was a lover, when he was in fact Cipel was a trained intelligence asset trying to exploit McGreevey’s weakness to benefit Israeli security interests,” says Martin.—————————— 8212;——————————̵ 12;————————
America’s Daily Briefing is an investigative opinion column syndicated nationally by Out2.com, where Andy Martin serves as independent chief national and foreign correspondent. Martin has been Baghdad Bureau Chief for Out2.com since April 2003. His specialty is investigative analysis in the Middle East where he harvests information from numerous official and unofficial sources and breaks stories with intelligence overtones on a regular basis.
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?ReleaseID=34760
Posted by robert on Aug 19, 2004 at 7:19 AM Ken,
You are clearly a moron or a neo-con conspirator trying to discredit one of the best minds this country has produced.
Not only your comments are pure ignorance, they display clear lack of knowledge and perspective. Your criticism is laughable at best. Here you are not discussing this issue with old ladies collecting porcelain angel figurines and pictures of el presidente. We are intelligent people, and know more than you about history and politics.
History shows that there always will be a group of people, who like Ken are blind, stupid, hateful and ignorant and no matter what - they will side with authorities because otherwise, they feel lost.
I share Kurt’s sentiments. People like you never get it.
Keep marching on man, and send us a postcard describing the world from the other side of the concentration camp.
Posted by Boris on Aug 19, 2004 at 7:48 AM Hello,
Although Mr. Vonnegut refers to Einstein & Twain as his “distinct betters”, I have always thought him to be a peer in that company. The problem, as stated in “Galapagos” is that our brains are too big. Except for George W. Bush.
I’m a harmonica player, not a soldier. But, I get the blues when I think of all our guys over in Iraq making great sacrifices for the American Dream. Bush & Cheney’s nightmare. Rumsfeld lost an election to a dead man. Or was that Ashcroft? Reading Vonnegut has affected my short term memory.
Where was I? Oh, yeah. Talk about losers. America is the biggest loser nation in the Third World today. Southern California looks like a Mexican slum. Blacks in Florida recently lost their right to vote. The stock market is starting to look like a NASCAR race. The caution flag is out. Time to wake up, little Suzies.
I see where Alan Keyes just moved to Illinois. There goes the neighborhood. Haven’t seen this much carpetbagging since the Civil War. One step for Bush, one giant leap backwards for America. How’s this for a campaign slogan?
Got Work?
Posted by T.K. on Aug 19, 2004 at 8:01 AM Not excusing some of my countrymen(NZ);Iwould say that some Americans have acted like major war criminals and just have good PR (Hollywood) to salve their media-warped consciences. I ,these days, nearly gag talking to Americans who don’t see anything wrong with things like the A-bomb,Iraq etc. I hardly think of the US as a civilised country anymore.Not the government anyrate. I wonder how a people so wonderful and an inspiration to the world could let their country fall in such ill-repute. But then I realise I am not active in own and should not sit in judgementon other people.
Posted by ralph on Aug 19, 2004 at 8:42 AM The CIA concluded long ago that Iran most likely gassed the Kurds—accidentally. At the time, Iraq was using mustard gas, while Iran was using blood agents such as those used on the Kurds. I’m surprised how seldom this issue is raised in response to one of Bush’s very last excuses for his genocidal policies. Here’s one of thousands of links dealing with the issue. http://quixote-quest.org/resources/national_international/IraqGasKurds_OilH2O_01 13103.html
Posted by Jack on Aug 19, 2004 at 9:05 AM I don’t want to deal with the arguement at hand, but I suggest you all do your research a bit better. Even just a little Chomsky in your diet will show that America isn’t a little ray of light in a bleak world. From George Bush Sr.‘s connections to drug smuggling and the ridiculous “War on Drugs”, to the induction of Saddam into power with the approval of the U.S. The oil crisis in the world and the use of strong figures (I.E. GOD) to promote the opinions of one to sway in their favor. Its all a cockery, turn off your T.V.‘s for once and live a little, even if the Power Line scenary and plastic coated world is the kind of place you like to live. I give humanity 30 years. If the whole hasn’t fallen into destruction by then, well then I lived longer than I expected. Opinions are valuable. Without them, who would create change for a better cause. They can also be dangerous, especially if you have subtle control over the thinking of the inhabitants. I have hit the low point in my life, and somewhere along the line I started seeing things differently. My friendly police officers were suddenly morphing into lifelong enemies. Why? Maybe after they entered my home without permission or warrant and hand cuffed my friends, all stemming from a noise complaint at 11pm at night in a college town? Maybe it is the fleet of Police that are in my town. I see no where less than 10 cops a day, and that is only on the route from home to work, which averages at 8 miles, there and back.
Is it that truth that large government will NEVER work as intended unless you happen to be one in power. Greed is sickening in this day in age, its all about having more material this and that, not living your life with the friends you have. People worry more about their financial crisis than they do if a close acquaintance is having a personal crisis. Many believe that someday it will get better, still believing they will never wake up from the American Dream.
This is to Ken though. I don’t normally attack personally, but you really need to step back and think about things other than what your daddy taught you or what the President says in his “State of the Union” speeches. (Why do they clap after every sentence?) I don’t know you personally, but I have met others like you. You sound like my father, and I don’t talk to him anymore, ever since I revealed my feelings on the world to him. He wants nothing to do with me, mainly because I don’t want to pursue a money making career.
Why pursue a career? Why? So you can get your SUV and intimidate all in the street? (They weren’t even popular until recently, and in other countries still aren’t) Imagine yourself in another’s shoes. Someone who has nothing, but still lives with hope.
Conservatives and materialists keep the world going until something breaks down.
The idealists pick up in the destruction, only to start anew. Intelligence isn’t measured by how much money you make or how fervently you act as a Patriot. Its the ability gain a conscious feel for what you believe in and expand on that internally. The mind of the poet is a perfect example, and anything can be spoken through a metaphor.
Destruction leads to reconstruction, that is, if anyone is left.
Posted by Guy on Aug 19, 2004 at 9:18 AM Kurt V, you ignorant, anti-American, un-partriotic idiot. I can’t believe you even wrote an article like this. If you don’t like our government of leader go live in Iraq or one of the countrys that you seem to endear. With a name like Kurt Vonnegut, I bet your family is the one with a nazi past history. If you wrote an article like this in most other countrys they would take you out and behead you. Something I would pay to gladly see.
Posted by Louie on Aug 19, 2004 at 10:01 AM You are the idiot, Louie. Vonnegut was a prisoner of war in Nazi Germany. He fought for the US.
People are allowed to disagree in the US, that is what makes it a democracy. If YOU don’t agree with democracy, why don’t YOU go live in a country under a totalatarian regime.
Posted by Susan on Aug 19, 2004 at 10:16 AM Your paper stinks. It is obvoiusly a right-wing rag. Any moron that thinks they know more than Mr. Vonnegut is worse than ignorant. why did you post the negative responses first? Your website is just a cover for the corrupt powers that be. who finances it? I’ll tell that guy what he can sink his teeth in to…my ass!!!!!
Posted by william wright on Aug 19, 2004 at 11:51 AM I am totaly stunned by those who can justify this waste of tax money in Iraq. It is hard to resist the manipulaters unfluence and i am greatful to those who can cut through the propoganda of our times and yes god bless you madam Librarien
Posted by Bryant on Aug 19, 2004 at 12:25 PM I am greatful for the thoughtful people who can cut through the propoganda that is so much a part of our lives at this time in America. i am stunned at the many people who can submit to a war based on lies the rapeing of the treasury and hideing behind the flag while they pretend to be patriots. god bless the Librarians and Mr. vonnegut
Posted by Bryant on Aug 19, 2004 at 12:34 PM Ken could be playing the devil’s advocate. But even if he isn’t he is not stupid. I do not think that Mr. Vonnegut needs to be defended by anyone.
Ken has one side of the issue and has some “truths”. Think about it! He actually has some info to back him up. And this in itself makes him at least worthy of discussion.
By telling him he is stupid you are expecting him to concede your ideas?
You are just as bad as the thought police.
Posted by GReg on Aug 19, 2004 at 12:43 PM A side note to all the discussions and verbal anathemas flung about here.
Not everyone on the Right supports Bush. Chronicles Magazine, The New American, Liberty, The American Conservative are all against Bush.
The “Far Right” taking over the Republicans? No, it is the neo-conservatives that have taken over. If it were the “Far Right”, they would be more like either the Libertarians or the John Birchers than the PNAC-types running things now.
Remember, the Right in America is not as monolithic as you may think it is. Do not let your emotions cloud your judgement on this.
Posted by Outside Observer on Aug 19, 2004 at 1:44 PM Ken,
I would suggest you read three books that may shed some light upon subjects you have little knowledge about: Blowback,The Sorrows of Empire(
Revelations upon the effects of American Empire here and abroad)and The Best Democracy Money Can Buy( Florida). Do the ends justify the means? The fire bombing of Dresden and other acts by the Alies were war crimes(see Fog of War McNamara’s admissions). If we commit war crimes how do we distinguish our selves from the Nazis. By thier fruits you shall know them! We must put away our fear Ken and stand up and be Men. God made us to think and Not whorship the nation state. Our lives are short and our deaths are unavoidable but we have free will and we do not have to participate in madness.
Posted by James on Aug 19, 2004 at 1:47 PM Typical comments - they miss Vonnegut’s main points and argue about crap. Its what I have come to expect from this latchkey-kid-child-care generation. here is the gulf - on one side was thousands of years of history where mothers raised their sons - and on your side of the gulf is YOU.
And typical arguments from the modern Zoo animals. “we are free if some chunk-o-paper says we are..” or “it all depends on the election…” words and thoughts of serfs and slaves.
But I suppose that’s where most of you descended from anyway. Eurp-up the serf-slave thousand year theme park.
Posted by Kar5 on Aug 19, 2004 at 1:57 PM Ken,
The fact that it was close is proof that it was rigged. Just the fact that over 40,000 African-Americans were not allowed to vote & that it was a premeditated act is proof, forget the hanging chads & undervotes. And if ALL the votes that were cast had been recounted (as they were by the NY Times, LA Times & others, Gore would’ve won. Aeijay is the only one of all us who hit the nail on the head.
Posted by colemancraig on Aug 19, 2004 at 2:05 PM I think the Vonnegut article is well stated.
I have read through the exchanges regarding Florida and the Bush theft of the election. Apparently none of you have read the full story that was alluded to in the M Moore film. The Republicans, including Katherine Harris (who just happens to have gotten a promotion from Attny Gen to Congress - surprise!), CONSPIRED to and eliminated some 90,000 mostly black voters by calling them convicted felons and taking away their right to vote. Many of these accused felons have conviction dates of 1996! That reminds me of another form of pre-emptive attack. I guess our brilliant officials are so smart that they can foresee future criminals! This was well publicized overseas but ignored by our corporate/ gov’t major media.
The story was the result of brilliant investigative work of US Citzen Greg Palast, who has had to have his work published by The Guardian and The Observer and The BBC in London. He cannot get a major US media outlet to publish his “subversive” truth.
I highly recommend his illuminating book “The Best Democracy Money Can Buy” for the full, scary story on the FL fraud as well as many other stories, including Enron. Like Mr. Vonnegut said, you have to read books these days to find the truth.
May God help all of us!
Richard, Dripping Springs, TX
Posted by Richard Wetzel on Aug 19, 2004 at 2:05 PM Ken, Come clean, you really are GW, aren’t you. It’s fine to disquise yourself on the internet but a picture of you is becoming very clear & it ain’t pretty.
Posted by colemancraig on Aug 19, 2004 at 2:13 PM All,
I wanted to let everyone know that the person “Ken” who has made more posts regarding this article than anyone, is, most likely, what is called a “blocker” in the polictical arena. A blocker is just that - a master of propaganda techniques that uses their skills to control political debate and block or demean opinions/postitions that do not agree with the agendas of those in power.
I have read every post up to 8/19 and most of Ken’s posts contain propaganda techniques in some form.
There are thousands of paid blockers/propagandists in the US that do things like Ken does to stifle any critical thinking that pops up in any media venue. The best propaganda is that which targets the “reptilian” brain (the oldest part of the brain, it controls basic survival instincts like fear and fight or flight responses. These instincts are involuntary reactions. They cant be stopped, but can be controlled or pondered once one is exposed to propaganda that provokes basic instinctual responses) - one will find this “reptilian” propaganda being used consistently to defend our nation’s current state of aggressiveness.
Ken will, of course, label me as a “conspiracy theorist” (an absolutely stunning piece of propaganda - name calling - that can surely stifle any rational person from continuing down an unwanted line of thought) or something similar and try to take away all credibility of my comments.
Believe what you will, but the widespread use of propaganda and lies in all our media outlets should be a red-flag to all who care about liberty and freedom more than safety and security. Mr. V thinks so, and so do many more Americans than guys like Ken want us all to think….
Posted by JP on Aug 19, 2004 at 2:18 PM Why all of the Hitler claptrap? Is that a
heebee-jeebee scare word?
The war is for the Zionists. If you say
that they or ‘Jews’, or for our god-is-dead
tribal members ‘Jewish’, the cry is ‘ANTISEMITE’.
wow.
scary.
Zionists seem to be of Russian-Mongol descent:
so they are not arab (hebrews were an arab tribe) at all. So may be they should be
called Neo-Jews. Or do you revere the imagined
past of the hebrew-ancients. fine, call yourself
Paleo-Jew.But leave the Christian bashing to others.
A pig calling a cow a goy is quite unseemly.Bush is ‘christian’ in name-only. Same as the
Neo-Cons are ‘jew’ in name-only.
Posted by daedalus on Aug 19, 2004 at 2:20 PM It’s obvious that Ken isn’t as dumb as people portray him, and that Ryan and Shane, et al, suffer from the cranial-rectal inversion so prevalent among the left in this country.
The Bush administration is a bad one, no doubt. Bush and his cronies have been a disaster for the environment, in their foreign policy, and in taking away an unprecedented amount of civil liberties in the wake of 9/11. They have turned the White House into a militant theocracy worshipping the Father, the Son, and the Holy Haliburton missile. As far as the Florida elections go, many of you suffer from a case of selective myopia. The Floridians screwed up the very NEXT election they staged, and lost several thousand ballots to exactly the same kind of confusion that reigned supreme in the Presidential Election of 2000. I don’t know what the answer is - maybe we need to give Florida touch-screen voting booths with pictures of the candidates. I laughed when I saw Richard Daley the Younger (King Richard II) talking about the corruption inherent in the election. Didn’t his father write the definitive treatise on crooked elections in 1960? Chicago, like New Orleans, is another one of those cities where mortality is no obstacle to exercising one’s voting rights.
Vonnegut makes a good point about libraries. There are nuggets of truth in the rest of his article, but any truth he tells is overwhelmed by his hyperbole. Dehumanizing millions & millions of people? A tad strong as far as choice of words. Dehumanizing soldiers? When a soldier signs on the dotted line, s/he basically sells her/his soul to the U.S. Government in exchange for a leg up in the job market, preferential rates on everything from insurance to mortgages and credit cards among other things, as well as paid education or training when s/he leaves the service. That applies to all the weekend warriors and inactive but still eligible former active duty personnel. They all understood the risks when they signed up for military service.
Posted by Brian Flores on Aug 19, 2004 at 2:21 PM Dr King said that America was a Nation of, “Guided Missiles and misguided people.”
The master class must feel a sense of victory in that they have succeeded in creating a nation of mind degraded people, who cannot tell right from wrong, nor good from bad, and further cannot even understand that the decision to destroy them all, has already been made.
This decision to destroy the bulk of the human race with nuclear weapons is what caused ET to enter into to our political world.
Read More; http://politicsofet.com/
Posted by Pat Sullivan on Aug 19, 2004 at 2:26 PM Saddam Hussein was a bad leader, but George W. Bush
is considerably worse. His kill rate is much
higher, and he is known to have threatened to use
weapons of mass destruction against peaceful nations,
despite being unable to pronounce the world “nuclear”.
Posted by Tony Kimball on Aug 19, 2004 at 2:27 PM Yes, time to give up on this version of humanity. If God can “reboot” several times, so can we. I think bird flu will take care of it soon, but maybe we can help it along.
Posted by Tim on Aug 19, 2004 at 2:55 PM Starting a war and killing over 12,000 men, women and children to “liberate” and “democratize” them sounds exactly like the excuse Hitler gave to invade Poland. But what was Hitler’s real reason? What was George Bush’s reason again? ...WMD? ...Evil dictator? ...Threat to US?
Bush’s administration IS the most FASCIST this nation has ever had. Read Vonnegut, Orwell, Bradbury, and Huxley. These men had a message: Don’t let power hungry governments take away your freedom.
Wake up!
Posted by scotty on Aug 19, 2004 at 3:22 PM Ken is a troll. Ignore him. His O’Reilly-esque doublespeak is geared purely and simply to get you to sink to his level. I’m sad to see several of you have taken his bait.
The best thing to do with a troll is ignore him:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm
Posted by Jasper on Aug 19, 2004 at 4:00 PM If you step back and look at Kurt’s main thesis, that Bush has betrayed basic constitutional liberties, you can see that he’s right. Both Michael Moore’s Stupid White Men and Greg Palast’s The Best Democracy Money Can Buy amply demonstrate that Jeb Bush and K. Harris appear to have committed two counts of third degree felony crimes under Florida’s voting statutes (see them online easily). Now Bush is sending in groups of heavies with badges to intimidate voter registration groups in Florida out of doing their good work, Homeland goons into the workplace of activists to jeopardize their jobs. It would only get worse under another Bush term. Imagine how far he’d go if one further domestic occurred; Tommy Franks said the military would take over. John Adams went down in a cloud of smoke over the Alien and Sedition Acts. So will Bush.
Posted by George LoBuono on Aug 19, 2004 at 4:28 PM Kurt’s argument centers on Bush’s betrayal of basic consitutional rights, which is well proven. John Adams went down in a cloud of smoke over his Alien and Sedition Acts. So will Bush. *M. Moore’s Stupid White Men and G. Palast’s The Best Democracy Money Can Buy both amply prove that Bush and Harris appear to have deliberately committed two counts of 3rd degree felonies, with premeditation, in depriving voters of their franchise (the grossly inaccurate felony purge in which a Rep. crony co. was paid $1.2 million to dump thousands of voters without even verifying their names.) Just imagine how far Junior would go if another domestic attack occurred. *Maybe it’s time he learned how to read a newspaper, not just “skim the headlines” and let an adult fill him in on the details.
Posted by George LoBuono on Aug 19, 2004 at 4:37 PM A word from a non-american reader:
My name is Kim, Im danish, living in Turkey.
As most of You here I follow the wold news every day, even the the lack of information besides the insane war games going on and on and on. And what I see makes my heart bleed.
Dont You see its all a game of corrupted greedy hearts seeking power?
Pleading for the “nessesity” of war in the name of humanity and same time destroyng your own hard earned civil rights, stealing your money and blood, your current president and his dogs of war certainly destroys the image of America as a peace loving, peace keeping nation.
And every time I see the face of your president my stomach turns, and I wonder… how could it come so far? What’s next? And why in the name of God have You, the American people, accepted all this?
Its about time the American people wake up and sack your socalled “leader”, as also the Danish, British, Turkish and numerous others populations should do… Because the present governments are not working for the people, the masses, the many. They are working for the few, super rich elitists and for the sake of power.
And its all the same wether its a Christian Muslim or Jewish government… we are all being screewed… we, 98.8 percernt of all people, by 1.2 percent evil, egoistic “non-humans”, who will do ANYTHİNG to maintain their power.Wake up. Before its too late.
Kimbrian,
a conserned world citizen
Posted by Kimbrian on Aug 19, 2004 at 4:52 PM Dear Kurt,
When one ages, usually their brain swells causing pressure against the sub-arachnoid crainial bones. This results in the common attitudes of some of our elderly. It is important to realize that we live in what will probably become one of the greatest centuries. Negative comments about our existence are more than plentiful. Now, I don’t know you personally, but one would think that you could be a little more positive towards life regarding your stature and success in the publishing industry.
For example; In the year 1860 infant mortality was close to 50%. Today, our medical science has greatly reduced this number. This is called progress and it is positive.
We need positive influence from our more “noted members and institutions” of society. As I have read a few of your books, and enjoyed reading them (knowing very well that they were not of scholarly origin), your critical attitudes are somewhat without substance.
For example; All we hear on the news it seems is reports regarding the Middle East Terrorists and the people they have killed (and Laci Peterson,etc). Bicycles kill about 850-1000 people per year and trees kill about 3000 people per year. Furthermore, We shouldn’t be calling these people Terrorists. We should be calling them Uncivilized Savages.
As for the future we are on the verge of finding cures for all forms of cancer, discovering fusion reaction as a fuel source to provide us with all the Hydrogen power we will ever need, technology to mine the asteroids for the metals we need, space exploration to allow your books to someday make it to another world in another galaxy. So, you see life is not all bad. It has some good also. There is a positive and a negative to just about everything. The positive aspect of existence is the awareness of the possibility that we can evolve. The negative aspect of existence are those who don’t care to pass on the more enlightened aspects of their lives to others.
In the future, try not to let your critical attitudes supercede your “evolved” scholarly opinions.
Sincerely,
Steven
Posted by Steven Holloway on Aug 19, 2004 at 5:09 PM Brian Flores takes it in the ass and has a severe Oedipus complex. Oh my, how immature of me, almost as immature as saying my brain is in my ass, wow, how witty of Brian Flores. I wonder how he thinks of these things with a round tube in his ass. Ok, I’m done being a 12 year old, I just thought that was what we were doing for the moment.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 19, 2004 at 5:46 PM It is amazing what the people will accept from the elected. The complete disregard for any investigation in an attack that claimed thousands of lives should be enough of a reason to impeach the leadership, for one reason and one alone, conspiracy AFTER the fact.
Posted by sam on Aug 19, 2004 at 5:57 PM Susan,
Why do people like you as well as elected officials, keep referring to the USA as a democracy? We are not a democracy! WE ARE A CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC. Big difference.
Posted by robert on Aug 19, 2004 at 6:05 PM daedalus you are right in your assesment. Wish the rest of America could wake up to the Israeli Zionist control of USA.
Posted by robert on Aug 19, 2004 at 6:09 PM what a nightmare to read this horror. i’ve read everything vonnegut has published. i know he’s a leftist. but i didn’t realize that he had switched his brain off. what a disappointment. to castigate america and compare it to nazis when we are exercising our right to self-defense is appalling. i thought vonnegut had promised that timequake was the last thing he would publish! yech. reading this was like reading chomsky.
ugh.
Posted by benny dover on Aug 19, 2004 at 6:12 PM it seems ken would be the kind of fellow that thinks the ‘skull and bones’ is a harmless frat… like the good ol’ animal house or something
its very clear to anyone with half a brain or rudimentary reasoning skills how utterly manipulative the current administration is… that is of course if you are paying attention, and keeping up with the evidence - which is NOT the same thing as watching FOX news every now and then
i feel a little better about giving up on the humans now that I know these other paragons of logic have done so… although I could not wait till the end of my life - i got the accelerated “school of life” course and promptly wrote off humanity about 10 years ago
but im not bitter…. im tangy
Posted by tinfoil hatmaker on Aug 19, 2004 at 7:04 PM Kurt’s point is that he empathizes with other greats that reluctantly gave up on the human race. His reasons are sound, whether you agree with them or pretend not to (I have yet to see a third class among these comments). Progress isn’t measured in life-spans, infant mortality rates, and technology; it’s measured in morality. First the value for human life, secondly the valuation of one’s immediate social and experiential environment, and thirdly the environment in its totality.
The recognition of these values doesn’t justify one’s approach to politics or life, but it does give one a perspective from which to properly assess. As Kurt has done.
“Give up on humanity” as the natural emotional response to both the USA and these reactions? You and me both, Kurt. You and me both.
Posted by ducq on Aug 19, 2004 at 7:27 PM It’s all about Peak Oil. Google that and be afraid. EVERYTHING we enjoy in our modern, technological, comfortable society depends on cheap energy. At one time, cheap energy was provided by slaves. Slaves were acquired by the conquest and submission of other people. Today, the same thing is happening only the conquest and submission of people is to gain control over THEIR oil. Think that alternative energy is the answer? Not necessarily. Oil provides most of the raw materials we’ve become dependent on. Raw materials for plastics, drugs, paints, cosmetics etc. etc. Hydrogen, even it does become cheap and available, won’t provide these. Neither will fusion. And don’t think that anyone is working on a Star Trek type replicator. We are screwed. World population growing. China and India becoming consumer societies.
Competition for oil is going to plunge the world into the next world war. Instead of working to create long term, domestic solutions to these problems, Americans have been duped into the short term and disasterous strategy of taking by force what belongs to someone else. A new Roman Empire or a new Third Reich? Doesn’t matter what history will call it, it all amounts to the same thing.
And Ken and his minions? Not interested in debate or dialog based on honesty and truth. Not when it’s so much easier to insult and demean.
Posted by bornfree on Aug 19, 2004 at 7:49 PM I believe American Friends Service Committee statistics indicate that US bombs and sanctions over the past 14 years have been responsible for the deaths of over one million [1,000,000] Iraqi civilians, over half being children under the age of five [5].
Almost unfathonably insane.
Posted by dave on Aug 19, 2004 at 7:55 PM Why is everyone pretending like Saddam Hussein and the Bush family weren’t friends before he invaded Kuwait? The US is documented as having been an ally of Iraq when Saddam invaded Iran and began committing the “atrocities” that he is now excorriated for by ex-friends.
The US and the Western world KNEW about Saddam’s chemical weapons because American and European business men were the ones who provided him with them in the first place. But it was okay for him to gas Shiite Muslims who threatened the power balance in the Middle East, as long as he did it with our blessing, hey?
Anyone who pretends that the Florida election wasn’t rigged is an enemy of democracy.
Ken is a butt-boy. He’s an O’Reilly butt-boy and he’s probably Sean Hannitty in disguise. Anyone who hasn’t read “Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them” by Al Franken needs to run out and get their hands on a copy right now.
Dubya isn’t as dumb as he pretends to be. Dyslexic, maybe, but not dumb. I do think it’s off the mark to compare him to Hitler, though. He should be compared to Satan. Or better yet, the anti-Christ.
Posted by Eek! on Aug 19, 2004 at 7:56 PM KV,
You’re just NOW giving up on the human race? Hell, we just know it’s a matter of time. We can’t wait.
Coackroaches Everywhere
Posted by Cockroaches on Aug 19, 2004 at 8:10 PM For all you thinkers, perhaps a little European history might help to get your thoughts in order:
Hitler used the 1933 burning of the Reichstag (Parliament) building by a deranged Dutchman to declare a war on terrorism, establish his legitimacy as a leader (even though he hadn t won a majority in the previous election).
You are now witnessing the beginning of a great epoch in history, he proclaimed, standing in front of the burned-out building, surrounded by national media. This fire, he said, his voice trembling with emotion, is the beginning. He used the occasion a sign from God, he called it to declare an all-out war on terrorism and its ideological sponsors, a people, he said, who traced their origins to the Middle East and found motivation for their evil deeds in their religion.
Two weeks later, the first prison for terrorists was built in Oranianberg, holding the first suspected allies of the infamous terrorist. In a national outburst of patriotism, the nation s flag was everywhere, even printed in newspapers suitable for display.
Within four weeks of the terrorist attack, the nation s now-popular leader had pushed through legislation, in the name of combating terrorism and fighting the philosophy he said spawned it, that suspended constitutional guarantees of free speech, privacy, and habeas corpus. Police could now intercept mail and wiretap phones; suspected terrorists could be imprisoned without specific charges and without access to their lawyers; police could sneak into people s homes without warrants if the cases involved terrorism.
To get his patriotic Decree on the Protection of People and State passed over the objections of concerned legislators and civil libertarians, he agreed to put a 4-year sunset provision on it: if the national emergency provoked by the terrorist attack on the Reichstag building was over by then, the freedoms and rights would be returned to the people, and the police agencies would be re-restrained.
Within the first months after that terrorist attack, at the suggestion of a political advisor, he brought a formerly obscure word into common usage. Instead of referring to the nation by its name, he began to refer to it as The Fatherland. As hoped, people s hearts swelled with pride, and the beginning of an us-versus-them mentality was sewn. Our land was the homeland, citizens thought: all others were simply foreign lands.
Within a year of the terrorist attack, Hitler s advisors determined that the various local police and federal agencies around the nation were lacking the clear communication and overall coordinated administration necessary to deal with the terrorist threat facing the nation, including those citizens who were of Middle Eastern ancestry and thus probably terrorist sympathizers. He proposed a single new national agency to protect the security of the Fatherland, consolidating the actions of dozens of previously independent police, border, and investigative agencies under a single powerful leader.
Most Americans remember his Office of Fatherland Security, known as the Reichssicherheitshauptamt and Schutzstaffel, simply by its most famous agency s initials: the SS.
And, perhaps most important, he invited his supporters in industry into the halls of government to help build his new detention camps, his new military, and his new empire which was to herald a thousand years of peace. Industry and government worked hand-in-glove, in a new type of pseudo-democracy first proposed by Mussolini and sustained by war.
http://c0balt.com/resources/terror/terror.shtml
Posted by Gabe on Aug 19, 2004 at 8:48 PM Debating how Bush came to be President is useless as a)there is nothing anyone can do about it, and b)like it or not, he IS the President.
It’s what happened after he took the oath of office that should concern everyone. Is he REALLY in charge? Who is manipulating what and to what end? Is there a government within the government, controlling everything to an unspecified end?
Sure. This all sounds like a conspiracy theory, and that is exactly how it gets labelled by the blind, the irrational and the lazy unvilling, unwashed masses not willing to research and READ all there is to read on this “conspiracy”. Then, once you have read and verified everything, sorted out the BS from the truth, and finally came to your own conclusion, NOT blindly like I see in many comments here, but through your own research and the real facts, then come back and tell me what your opinion is.
By voting Bush out of office, your lot will not improve. Third cousin Kerry is from the same mould, and has the same government within a government to deal with. To give up on the human race, is rather harsh. To give up on the sheep within the human race, is necessary for anyone who uses his head to think, not bring down imaginary brick walls.
Posted by Gabe on Aug 19, 2004 at 9:04 PM Our last defense against treachory, real or imagined, is our vote.
I say keep our ballots on paper.
Posted by jefftaylor on Aug 19, 2004 at 9:35 PM Anthing Mr. Vonnegut says is okay with me. He is a man with a big heart for humanity and no time for politics.
Posted by skip on Aug 19, 2004 at 9:39 PM Jeff,
I agree with you 1000%. Anyone who wishes to manipulate the voting process may do it when there is no paper trail, and the people that make the voting machines, (both company heads, in this case) not only make the chips used but are Bush Family friends. Again, the cry will be “conspiracy theory” but no matter what you call it, ‘something stinks in the United States’.
Posted by Gabe on Aug 19, 2004 at 9:40 PM Hey ken
your last name wouldn’t happen to be STARR would it?
Posted by Eric on Aug 19, 2004 at 9:41 PM why even discuss it? three pages worth…wonder if anyones mind got changed?
i knew how i felt about vonnegut before i read it. great stuff, as always…maybe its just a desparing day.maybe im having a vonnegut day. so it fucking goes.
are you gonna change kens mind? no one here is gonna alter my opinion on things, and ill bet youve all got your minds made up too. we are exercising our rights, and that a good thing i suppose…but all im doing right now is masturbating, just like many of you. tell ken here what a charicature of the ugly american he is…and self-congradulate on what an informed and nuanced guy i am.
boy do i love to hear myself talk.
ill see you all on the boxcars! so it goes!
dhhix
Posted by dude h homeslice ix on Aug 19, 2004 at 10:24 PM London Guardian | August 17 2004
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1284632,00.htmlWhen it comes to American presidential elections, blue blood counts.
So say British researchers who predict that Democratic challenger John Kerry will oust President George Bush on November 2 because he boasts more royal connections than his Republican rival.After months of research into Mr Kerry’s ancestry, Burke’s Peerage, experts on British aristocracy, reported yesterday that the Vietnam war veteran is related to all the royal houses of Europe and can claim kinship with Tsar Ivan “The Terrible”, a previous Emperor of Byzantium and the Shahs of Persia.
Burke’s director, Harold Brooks-Baker, said Mr Kerry had his mother, Rosemary Forbes, to thank for most of his royal connections.
“Every maternal blood line of Kerry makes him more royal than any previous American president,” Mr Brooks-Baker said.
“Because of the fact that every presidential candidate with the most royal genes and chromosomes has always won the November presidential election, the coming election - based on 42 previous presidents - will go to John Kerry.”
Similar research carried out on Mr Bush ahead of the 2000 presidential race showed that he beat Al Gore in the royal stakes, claiming kinship with Britain’s Queen Elizabeth as well as with Kings Henry III and Charles II of England.
Mr Kerry is a descendant of Henry III and Henry II of England and is distantly related to Richard the Lionheart, who led the third crusade in 1189, according to Burke’s.He is also descended from Henry I, King of France and his wife, Anne of Kiev, giving him kinship with the royal houses of Sweden, Norway, Denmark and the House of Rus.
Burke’s research showed Mr Kerry also has historical political connections in the United States.
He is closely related to John Winthrop, the first Massachusetts governor - the state for which he is now a senator - and his maternal grandmother was the granddaughter of Robert Winthrop, who was speaker of the House of Representatives from 1847 to 1849.
Posted by robert on Aug 19, 2004 at 10:47 PM I was at a respectable Sydney inner-city establishment having a drink with a work colleague to finish the week. Anyway, this was a few months after the Iraq invasion. There happened to be two off-duty US marines or navymen, I’m not sure. One guy was african-american who was pre-occupied with some ladies while the other started bragging to us about how many Iraqi’s they managed to kill in four hours, I think it numbered well into the thousands. Then the dude started hitting on me saying he’d always remember my face years from now and how he wanted to go with us to another bar. My friend thought this was very amusing but needless to say we found this a bit creepy and decided to leave thanking our lucky stars we were not at the mercy of a guy like this in a third world country.
Posted by Calvin Butler on Aug 20, 2004 at 12:04 AM Dear Kurt and friends:
If you’re going to blame somebody for failure, point an accusing finger at yourself. WE are responsible. WE are answerable for progress. It’s failure is OUR FAULT, not someone else’s. Abandon the inconsequential attitude and sense of impunity that infects the TV-ravaged American psyche. There are consequences for our actions, and for our failures to act. Take charge. How?
We’ve bet the farm and lost it, bit by bit, since the New Deal and Roosevelt’s gains, acquired by untold suffering during the Great Depression and WWII. Aside from GI Bill, racial and reproductive rights (semi-successful progressive offensives), framed fully fifty, forty and thirty years ago, nothing has been gained, since, and almost everything has been surrendered to the reactionaries. Agreed, so far?
Note, “successful progressive offensive.” Progressives are on the strategic defensive now, so we doom ourselves to defeat in the long run. What’s more, we defend everything, so we lose everywhere. Defend everything, lose everything. Attack everywhere, win nowhere. Ignore these Rules at your peril. Kurt, old scout, you know this full well.
Progressives have got to return to the attack, like Roosevelt did. They have got to focus their counter attack: find a hairline fracture, however invisible, on which to land one key blow that will shatter the diamond core of reaction. Some impossible long shot we wouldn’t even contemplate unless our backs were up against the wall. We’ve got to drive that silver-studded oak picket into the heart of the sacred monster, all of us in desperate concert.
Forgive me if I offend you with the violence of my metaphors. By now, you’ve all had a chance to witness what touchy-feely, non-confrontational, comfort food passivity earns us. It’s time to grow up, kids. Whatever faults and stupidities reactionaries suffer from, they don’t kid themselves that this game isn’t for keeps, the way we do. Kurt, old friend I’ve never met, please take no offense at anything I say in open admiration of what you’ve accomplished. Trust my good faith.
Other progressive issues must hang on that central theme, like charms on a bracelet. Its success requires the simultaneous fulfillment of all of them; and they must graduate to automatic success if the central theme is properly honored. Recall these criteria when you read my link, then try to satisfy them with another thesis. Good luck trying.This theme must be central, radical, and understandable by anyone. No one can say “I don’t understand” and get left behind; whether they’d agree with it or not. Everyone in the global village must understand, fully. Then they can rally to it and get to work, or disagree and stage futile protests against it, like the Venezuelan fat cats, nowadays. Finito, futile progressive activism and protest rallies. The reactionaries can picket us for a change, and count protesting sheep until they put themselves to sleep – until they’re stampeded by our next vigorous initiative.
You are big boys and girls now. So let me invite those of you out there, who care enough about progress to actually work for it, and who enjoy a long read. My work is free, full length and full text. It’s at
http://peaceworld.freeservers.com , et seq.
SOMEBODY has got to dream up a plan we can rally around. I am dead serious. If you reject my proposal (in deference to your childhood aversion training against it), then come up with a better one in the next year or so. That’s all the time we’ve got left, having squandered decades. Right now, the U.S. Army is practicing in Najaf, for Seattle, Kansas City and Boston. Quit waiting for perfection, the enemy of the good. Give up or get to work. It’s all on you, now.
Posted by mark mulligan on Aug 20, 2004 at 12:26 AM Wake up people!
- thousands of children (mostly lower income) are being fed ritalin and other psychtropics,
government funding going to corporations.
- reduced federal workforce. less civil servents and more corporate consultants. who profits?
- regulators that affects public health and welfare coming and going from corporations.
- 60 percent of corporations pay no taxes and the congress votes them stipends to move jobs overseas.
- billions for ‘homeland security’ and anyone can walk over the mexican border and government turns a blind eye. mexico is the 7th largest economy in the world and still the poorest come here.
- chemically spiked food to stimulate appetite.
- geneticly modified food to control the food production.
- this is a corportocracy and you are lunch.
Posted by Larry Somebody on Aug 20, 2004 at 12:32 AM This fellow Ken sounds like a decent sort and one who still has faith in America. Unfortunately, he and many like him are laboring under an unfair disadvantage, namely, an unreasonably benign view of history and probably a certain amount of ignorance wrought by the constant flow of slime from television, radio and other mass media outlets that invade our consciousness even while standing in line at the Royal Farm check out counter. Orwell’s 1984 was obvious totalitarianism- real easy to spot but modern day totalitarianism is comfortable and cozy on the inside looking out and still looks a lot like the old republic. Machiavelli said despotism is easily achieved and maintained as long as the outward familiar forms of the republic are retained retained but made to serve the dictatorship. Do we need to look further for confirmation than our own dearly departed republic?
Posted by Larry on Aug 20, 2004 at 1:37 AM I was fortunate enough to stumble across this story linked to jeffrense.com , and i sympathise with the heart felt words of the author.
However after reading responses thus far , i feel happy seeing that truth as light will always shine and cannot be darkend regardless the propaganda and timing of events.
People will always question forever more that which they feel is wrong. It is so nice too see such a array of healthy oppinions, and its easy to see who the agents(agitators) are.
If anything, i hope the author finds some sanctuary in the heartfelt response to this article that some people showed. Although we might have lost grip of the stearing wheel momentarily, and we have seen it all before, we the people truly know right from wrong.
It seems only our misguided view’s of society and religion and all political parties that are keeping us finding a common cause to live together forever in peace.
Posted by OzziMoz on Aug 20, 2004 at 2:53 AM It’s amazing how one asshole’s uninformed, stupid opinion that he confuses with fact gets so many people caught up with his bullshit! It was good to see Vonnegut still in good form with his more enlightened perspective, and yes, this is the time to get more spiritual, because the reptiles have taken over, and the sheeple don’t know it. As Christ said, “... render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser’s, render unto God what is God’s”; as Bob Dylan sang, “...don’t follow leaders, watch your parking meter"s. Bob Dylan’s quote is not so spiritual. It is about staying out of trouble while not getting caught up in the madness of politics. But that is probably the best place to be before you can get more spiritual. In case you don’t know, we are and have been for a couple thousand years or more in the age of Kali Yuga, “iron fist”, the worst of all four ages of existence in the material plane according to Vedic (pre-Hindu) scriptures. Don’t let the occasonal, isolated spurts of comfort or decency in our known history fool you. Most of our past, recent, and current human events have not been so wonderful. Far from it. That’s why enlightened beings have to incarnate to help out the muddled masses that are spun around with the madness of “civilization”.
Posted by Paul Fassa on Aug 20, 2004 at 3:09 AM Ken
Hitler was financed, among others, by Senator Prescott Bush, Dubyas Grandpa, acting on behalf of an american bank.
Let me share something personal with you ...
As a child I loved americans like almost every german child.
As a young adult I admired america - and yes, I did believe in america being a if not the leader of democracy.Today I’m simply disgusted by america and its “citicens”. If today I saw with my own eyes some guys kill americans, not only would I not try to stop them but I would actually enjoy it and provide shelter to them.
I welcome anything and I mean anything that brings harm to america, in particular to its real capital tel aviv.
The day your own “government” ignites a dirty nuclear bomb .. uh sorry ... yet another attack of those bad terrorists strikes your country I’ll give a party.
This world will be just so much better off without your “great nation” full of ignorants who allow someone like Dubya to lie to them, betray them and plainly f*** them.
Know what ? Hitler was an insane maniac - like g. bush. But he was _way smarter_ as is my cat.
Hitlers insane policy and criminal actions were possible because millions of germans “lived” rather close to the egde, suffering and dying slowly.
What’s your reason, rich super-democracy america ?
Posted by Alois on Aug 20, 2004 at 3:24 AM Ken is a shill who has no real knowledge of the subjects he pretends to understand…
He and his type are not worth wasting time on.
It doesn’t matter though as he’ll be getting drafted after the election (rigged by diebold)and so will be able to find out for himself what is really happening in the world.
If he’s lucky he’ll get back missing a leg or arm,maybe both.Then he’ll find that Bush has cut all veterans health and invalid pensions.
Then if he’s really lucky he’ll get to live in a dumpster and eat food scraps people have thrown away.
He doesn’t see what we overseas see…
America is under a facist thug government.
Posted by napoleon on Aug 20, 2004 at 3:56 AM ” cognitive teeth “?? Hey, everybody…Ken
has cognitive teeth! Cool!
Posted by Chili Boots on Aug 20, 2004 at 5:35 AM All the misery described above, which is not just an American thing, but a global problem, has solutions. But those solutions, might be pills hard to swallow for many people, who believe in the American Dream, unlimited wealth and economical succes.
Beause what needs to be done is to “disarm” the rich elite, by taking back the money and ressources they have stolen from the people…
A possible way to achieve this could simply be done by making specific laws limiting how much wealth individuals can accumulate. And laws dealing with how corporations are run. Transparent transactions and wealth accumulations.
But most of all, the public, the masses must be educated, not from the mind numbing, heart- and mindless tv programs that you see all over the world today, but by real teachers teaching reason and effect.
However, after all it might more be a question of spirituality, empathy and how we feel for our sisters and brothers all over the world. And the biggest teacher of spirituality comes from the pains you receive, the obstacles you have to crawl…
Seen in that perspective I guess a lot more devastating disasters will happen before enough people become aware enough to make the real changes needed, in a peaceful way.
Kimbrian
Posted by Kimbrian on Aug 20, 2004 at 5:45 AM if all a youse fricks are done attempting to poke your fingerprints into the clay..
howzabout we try to prove the venerable old Kurt wrong? less politics. more reality.
Posted by sammyp on Aug 20, 2004 at 8:02 AM “... render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser’s, render unto God what is God’s” Actually that was a bit of tax advice from Christ. His followers were asking whether or not they ought to pay taxes to Caesar. That just basically means, “Don’t go causing unnecessary problems, pay Caesar what he wants and worry about what God wants.” So I don’t know if that quote really works for the situation, but it’s a great quote nonetheless. As for Alois, how can you dish out the hatred for America that could be just as well dished out toward Germany? It’s kind of funny that you could talk abut Hitler, and then George W., and then come to the conclusion that we’re worse than you are. Everyone knows what a well-behaved country Germany has been historically, right? Your wish to see Americans killed is disgusting, but what can you expect from a country that is responsible for Grimm’s fairytales and other such sick shit. My ancestry is mostly German, and all I can say is that Germans could probably use some of that Prozac that is floating around in England’s drinking water. Oh yea, and it’s spelled American “Idol”. American “Idle” might even be a more apropriate television show for these times.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 20, 2004 at 12:03 PM Once again…. Vonnegut is right!
I am convinced that the bad karma that we as a nation have created by following ANY of these crazy bastards deep into the circles of hell will be a source of boundless grief for many generations.
Posted by kathy on Aug 20, 2004 at 12:37 PM My advice where “Ken” is concerned is let him go. He’s been brainwashed by extreme right propaganda and is turned so far around psychologically by his masters he hasn’t even any idea who or where he is, or what he truly stands for any more. Take a deep, cleansing breath, everyone, and stand apart from him.
Only when the smoke clears and the dust on the rubble dies down will he, like the duped Germans in the ruins of Berlin, finally realise what we all saw going in.
The tragedy here is that his programmers, such as Bill O’Reilly, Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity, harbour about as much sniggering contempt for Ken and his ilk as the Nazi death doctors felt for Jewish victims under their experiments.
Ken, I work in the American media. The men and women you watch on the news and listen to on the radio refer to you not as a good American but as a “point” and as a “demo”, short for demographic. Their one thought rising each morning and going to bed every evening is how to keep the points in support of Bush and keep the demo “under programme”, so they can continue to race yachts and fly personal jets you will never have. I work around executives like this every day. The plain and simple fact is they laugh about you.
Prove me wrong. Try to telephone Sean Hannity and get past his assistants simply to tell him how much you enjoy his show.
You’ll be stopped at the gate and, if you’re very lucky, receive a mass-produced photograph heat-imprinted with a machine’s version of his autograph.
You are nothing to them. Yet you parade their philosophy and prance round like a tit mumbling the words they came up with in order to look cool to others like you.
This makes you the white suburban version of a ghetto kid reciting his favourite rap single.
Marinate in that one awhile.
Posted by Heather on Aug 20, 2004 at 1:08 PM Good article thanks….I notice many of your naysayers have multiple postings….or is that, multiple personalities? lol
Keep up the good work and never give up on goodness, love and peace.
Posted by Peter on Aug 20, 2004 at 2:58 PM I didn’t read every post, but did anyone get the thesis of the article. We have a class of underpaid, underappreciated persons in librarians. These women and men have been finding our books, files, articles, et al. since most of us could barely walk. It comes down to whether or not you want the Government to find out what you’ve been doing at your the library you pay for through taxes. Remember Republicans, this power will be conferred to Democrats soon. These underpaid, underappreciated persons are STANDING UP to the government! We owe them a thanks, moral support, and perhaps money.
I don’t mean to break your ponderings on karma (not proven or disproven yet), the divine destiny which led to the success of founding fathers (false, they were Freemasons and had elite, European backers who were themselves vying for power.), and all sorts of innanity. Kurt Vonnegut has made a valid point. Librarians need to at least be patted on the back. I am going to mine today, and just thank them.
Posted by epik on Aug 20, 2004 at 3:11 PM -
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