I, like probably most of you, have seen Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 9/11. Its title is a parody of the title of Ray Bradbury’s great science fiction novel, Fahrenheit 451. This temperature 451° Fahrenheit, is the combustion point, incidentally, of paper, of which books are composed. The hero of Bradbury’s novel is a municipal worker whose job is burning books. And on… return to article
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Reader Comments (488)Thank you everyone, it has indeed been a lively debate to say the least.
I enjoyed Mr.Vonnegut’s article, as I enjoyed the debates which followed.
May we all strive to maintain and fight for the right of free speech.God Bless America!
Peace Profound . . .Moijnair
Posted by J.M. Moijnair on Aug 20, 2004 at 8:01 PM My view of humanity has improved some since I wrote my message about the Florida elections early y’day after the Vonnegut post first appeared on my favorite news site, Rense.com.
Many of the messages I had the pleasure of reading later y’day and today were very intelligent and heartfelt. I do not know where else this was posted to generate all the responses, but my suspicion is that it says a lot for the quality of thought from the rense site readers.
Let’s not let the bastards get us down!
Peace
Posted by Richard on Aug 20, 2004 at 8:11 PM Greetings Earthlings,
That article was pretty good and inventive. In case you have not read a history book provided by your earth libraries: you would discover that almost every major war has been inhumane and fought for material strategies. Shocker. And, much to your pleasure, wars have been protested since the beginning of time as well. You figured after Kurt invented ice-9 (or whatever it was) he would be pretty excited about the extinction of the human race; or at least I was…but then again I’m from another planet. So what is my point? I don’t know…. I’m going to grab some beers and keep on trucking! Perhaps I might recommend not watching so much television, and exercise more often.
Posted by Kirk Volkenaut on Aug 20, 2004 at 8:48 PM Hi everyone,
I’m not American. I’m Indian and a “vet” as you would have it. I’ve fought terrorists in Kashmir and a few other less well-known places since 1989.
I’ve lost family and friends at the WTC and in other places.I was invalidated out after a limited war with Pakistani-inspired terrorists and regular formations in 1999. I’ve served with US troops in Bosnia and Somalia on UN mission so, I have a fair idea about US Orbat and discipline.
I’m Muslim and an Arab speaker and spent time on official duty in Iraq training their counter-terrorist forces in the late 1980s.
The Baathists were filthy creatures but they are about as pro-militant Islam as say, Stalin was pro Greek Orthodox Church. Their connections with Al Queda were zero - something that cannot be said about W’s connections.
I cannot believe Dubya Bush did not know that - many Americans who were officially tracking Iraq during his father’s regime did. His father’s government gave Saddam most of his weaponry before the Kuwait invasion since they thought it would be used against Iran. The “Yanks” as we called them also did long, painfully meandering but unequivocal reports suggesting the Baathists be supported as a bulwark against militant Islam.
I have little direct stake in either this debate or the presidential election - frankly it seems to be a two-way contest between a robot and a moron.However I dislike the fact that I am strip searched everytime I visit the US because I share my given name with Bin Laden as many other Muslims do. I dislike the fact that “Stupid White Men” took over a year to be available in Indian bookstores where the Nanny Diaries took three weeks.
I do think that America has become a more intolerant place. I cannot believe that the kind of wanton abuse that occurred at Abu Ghraib was committed by US troops who lacked at least tacit sanction from their superiors.
I salute Kurt Vonnegut for making his points so succintly. And, I do believe the world would have been a far better place if Dubya hadn’t decided on this lunatic invasion. I do believe that the world will be at least marginally better if he isn’t re-elected. To most foreignors, it seems as though America decided to arm the village idiot and give him a badge when they supported the invasion of Iraq on the basis of utter crap in the form of “evidence” of WMD.
Sorry for the long post and the personal details but I would not have been able to place the context otherwise.
If any of you have bothered to read this far, thank you and vote with your consciences in November.
Osama M.
Posted by green grunt on Aug 20, 2004 at 9:15 PM omg! lol! how do I punned? :(
yes Ryan. its called a pun. Idol? Idle? either one is apt for purposes of lambasting current culture. one shows their tendency to idolize, which is probably in violation of some holy rule somewhere. the other highlights the phenomenon of staying home to see whats happening on the magickal stupidbox instead of doing something with your life. These things are much less fun when you have to explain them. yeesh.
Posted by sammyp on Aug 20, 2004 at 10:20 PM why did i read all these comments, something in the back of my head was going “Keep reading man, something good will come of it.” But for some reason as smart as I think i may be, and as smart as you all may be. I am pretty sure, just by posting on here we’re all a little less. I can understand that everyone has opinions, and every opinion differs, but after like the first post, it was like video game forums where everyone is ‘bustin’ on everyone elses skilz..yo’ I started reading all these comments, after the article, i generally admire intelligent people, until they open their mouth, and quote bible passages and bust out Bartlett’s Quotations, just to come up meaningless dribble that forces me to move my eyes across the page just to laugh at the end. What i do fear is that some of the opinions truly are original to the person submitting them. And i fear that more than the military might Bush has control over. The comment about the ‘two way contest between a robot and a moron’ was clever.. sadly probably the most accurate statement of all. All this discussion and no one touches the true issue, our government is failing as a whole, and our election system has been a bust for years. I for one would like to see a plurality. Our country is too diverse to rely on a two party system(we all know independent doesnt count). If the election process offered more than a two veiws (is still dont know what Kerry represents), maybe myself and the other half of the country could vote for someone we trust, and something we believe in. Sorry to take so long to get to point, just expressing my opinion.
btw - call me really mean names please, also i didnt capitalize like half of my “I’s” get me with a stupid joke or something
Posted by that guy on Aug 20, 2004 at 11:21 PM divided we fall… ‘tell them they are being attacked’... divide and conquer… *sigh*
Posted by smitty on Aug 21, 2004 at 12:00 AM Pity Ken and those wasting their energy attacking him. Pity more unrepentant Mr. Bush, whose destiny is eternal torment in the flames of Hell (unless he truly repents). Pity him; but pity more the children of Iraq, and the innocents who (like us) just want to live a ‘normal’ life where love and peace are the norm—rather than the exception. Men and women who believe George Bush, Bill Klinton, Shimon Peres or Sharon; or any number of individuals who have power for a moment, are in any way interested in bettering the lot of the average soul, are deeply deceived. Bush, Kerry, Tony Blair, John Major; and all true dictators of the new proletariat, have no interest whatsoever in serving or helping the common man to enjoy life or to learn to love. Their service is the service is violence, through the love of money and the manufacture of hate. Evil is in their soul; and evil it is that they have been programmed and destined to deliver. While God never sleeps, He surely is fully aware of the thoughts and actions of these evil men. In due course, they shall all receive their due reward for the Godless demonic acts they have foisted on the innocent, the weak, the ignorant, the foolish; and the righteous. It is not pleasant watching evil men rape and pillage with seeming impunity; but we need not despair. Watch and pray: call on the Almighty to deliver. It is without question that, if you are sincere, He will answer. He doesn’t play favours; and always does what is right (though we don’t understand everything). If you believe, no, know, what criminals like George Bush and Tony Blair are doing is evil—you can be sure it is God who put that understanding there. But diabolical, demon-possessed people like Bush and Kerry, they cannot understand what is right or wrong any more. They have been abandoned by God to the fate of rebrobates; and their judgment is just. We must not pray for reprobates; but we can pray that God will recover our loss under their awful Godless power trip, and that He will save us and our children from their diabolical plans and machinations and keep us close to Himself, that we may become like Him in SPITE of Satanic servants like Bush, Kerry, and Blair.
Posted by Randolph Emerson on Aug 21, 2004 at 2:52 AM Vonnegut wrote Slaughterhouse 5. He gets it. He’s old school like Einstein and Twain.
He’s angelic compared to Michael Moore.
Michael Moore’s more entertaining than FOX News but that’s another story.
Anyway, Vonnegut eloquently is trying to wake up the sleeping giant with his prose.
He’s not doing the hammer over the head bit (trying to explain Skull & Bones to people raised on Gilligan’s Island and The Brady Bunch) because he knows it won’t work.
Posted by poopster on Aug 21, 2004 at 2:57 AM people….. wake up. ken is a provocateur.
mission accomplished
Posted by oosie on Aug 21, 2004 at 5:25 AM “that guy”..... your post, though i may agree…. was terribly annoying. peace
Posted by oosie on Aug 21, 2004 at 5:29 AM I love how death(suicide) is mentioned here as a suggestion in reply to someone’s post… not once, but twice. Some of you have some real emotional problems. Call your dad and ask for a hug, please. Yes also, I know about the part in the Vonnegut book, and no, I never get my quotes from ‘familiar quotations’. Also, if you hate biblical quotations, check how many times Vonnegut mentions the sermon on the mount.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 21, 2004 at 12:44 PM The real obstacle to rational and mature debate seems to me to be people’s smug and condescending attitudes here. “...just to come up meaningless dribble that forces me to move my eyes across the page just to laugh at the end.” Seriously, do you imagine yourself sipping a martini in a tuxedo at a posh high-society party conversing among the social elite making comments like that? “Oh, our sort DO love to read the discourse of the peons and peasants for our amusement. It does make us laugh so, a-ha, a-ha.” It is patronizing and immature. A sarcastic quip or two is one thing, but this need some people have to feel superior to others only serves to hinder the transfer and debate of ideas. Being dismissive does nothing for any of us. State your opinion, show a little respect for your fellow human being and be part of the solution, not the problem. It probably does reflect the egotism that is so prevalent in a society where everyone is told from birth how damn “special” they are. Too bad…
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 21, 2004 at 1:15 PM It’s true—your closest neighbour and ally—Canada—is turned off by the Bush regime.
For just one issue, we can’t understand how it is that the U.S. has a system that “elects” a president when he has less than 50% of the direct vote for president? Denying black Floridans votes (Jef Bush) also doesn’t cut it.
Where’s the love? We can’t see it in the U.S. which seems to be in love with itself and uninformed about the rest of the world besides.
—Victor
Posted by vic fletcher on Aug 21, 2004 at 1:16 PM If we held an election between Bush and Saddam, would anyone here vote for Saddam? - Ken
Ken, if we held an election in Iraq between Bush and Saddam, who do you think would win?
As to the reason we don’t invade Sudan: they aren’t sitting on the huge reserves of oil as is the case in Iraq. I knew we were in trouble when the Supreme Court appointed BushCo and Halliburton to the whitehouse.
If you want to know about the relationship between bush and the nazi’s try a google search on bush nazi - you’ll find almost a half a million links… My personal favorite is the story in the New Hampshire Gazette - The Nation’s Oldest Newspaper. Do you think they would still be in circulation if they printed anything less than responsible journalism? It is a very sad state when we cannot rely on mainstream journalism to expose such hipocracy…
For some real interesting reading try these:
http://www.rense.com/Datapages/911_2.htm
911 foreknowledge
http://burningbush.twentythree.us/3.htm
bush - nazi link
http://www.infowars.com/cc_archive.htm
gulags in Amerika
Posted by Michael Stephens on Aug 21, 2004 at 1:38 PM Heather, the extreme Right in America are the Anarcho-capitalists and the Libertarians, not the neo-conservatives like Ken. As I stated before, the Right in America is not as monolithic as you think.
Posted by Outside Observer on Aug 21, 2004 at 2:55 PM Whoah, what a mudslinging contest! Oh, the vanity. Ken, I’m suprised you’ve endured so much of this. I’m not going to sling any mud at you, I think you’ve had enough. If you want to know about those purged Florida voters, a little keyword search will bring you instant results. Investigative journalist Greg Palast did a good deal of the legwork on that case. He claims to have smoking-gun proof. He outlines it in his book, “The Best Democracy Money Can Buy,” of which a new, expanded edition was released in April. (He did his first reporting on the purge in December of 2000.)
I would normally just leave it at that and let you do the homework if you’re really interested, but every vote counts, right? So I did a little legwork for you.
“In the months leading up to the election, Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris and Governor Jeb Bush ordered the removal of tens of thousands of voters from the voter rolls, on the grounds that they were felons and not entitled to vote.
I thought it was 57,000 voters, but the company that did it for them, called ChoicePoint, now says it was 94,000 voters. ChoicePoint was sued by the NAACP and now has turned over more information. So 94,000 people were knocked off the rolls, beginning before Harris got in—another Republican, her predecessor, began this purge.
That’s legal if these people were guilty of crimes. It turns out that, at minimum, 97 percent of the people on the list are innocent. Overwhelmingly the list is Democratic. About half the list are African American and other minorities. And there’s no guessing, because on the Florida ballots voter race is listed. “
-excerpt from “Exile on Mainstream”
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=177&row=1“Florida was the first state to create, computerize and purge lists of allegedly “ineligible” voters. Meant as a reform, in the hands of partisan officials it became a weapon of mass voting rights destruction. (The fact that Mr. Cooper’s conviction date is shown on state files as “1/30/2007” underscores other dangers of computerizing our democracy.)
You’d think that Congress and President Bush would run from imitating Florida’s disastrous system. Astonishingly, Congress adopted the absurdly named “Help America Vote Act,” which requires every state to replicate Florida’s system of centralized, computerized voter files before the 2004 election.
The controls on the 50 secretaries of state are few ・and the temptation to purge voters of the opposition party enormous. African-Americans, whose vote concentrates in one party, are an easy and obvious target.”
-excerpt from Jim Crow Revived in Cyberspace
by Greg Palast & Martin Luther King III
Baltimore Sun
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=306&row=2“What happened to Choicepoint?
Bush is handing them the big contracts in the War on Terror; immigration reviews, DNA cataloging, airport profiling, and their voting systems are being rolled out across the country.
It wasn’t reported in mainstream press, but the NAACP sued Harris and the gang for the black purge, and won. The state threw up its hands immediately and said, “You got us! We’ll put these people back as soon as we can.“We’re still waiting.”
-excerpt from Winning the Election ・The Republican Way: Racism, Theft and Fraud in Florida
The Weekly Dig, Boston, MA
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=217&row=2
Ignorance may be bliss, but what you don’t know can hurt you. I hope this helps.
Posted by Rake Muck, Don't Sling Mud on Aug 21, 2004 at 4:50 PM You self righteous American liberals make me want
to puke. Your country waged war on Japan and Germany the same way you waged war on Iraq. A torrent of self serving lies, followed by a campaign of genocidal violence. You were the ones
who dropped nuclear bombs, not Germany or Japan.
You were the ones who murdered 250,000 innocent
civilians in Dresden when the war was all but over. Your the ones who hatched the Genocidal morgenthau plan. You’ve forced your stinking mongrelising MTV negroid rap culture on every other Western nation. It was you bastards who forced our Governments to accept hoards of third
world migrants into our country, and destroyed the peace and stabillity of our nation.Your the sub-human mongrelised spawn of Satan and
deserve to die in the deserts of Iraq. Wake up you pricks, the entire world despises everything
you are and stand for.
Posted by Hugh on Aug 21, 2004 at 5:50 PM As I read the responses to Mr. Vonnegut’s piece it becomes apparent that this country is now filled with frightened, angry little people who would see us all locked in a pen like animals
rather than admit that their president is a fascist bent on destroying the world. I truly hope that one day these warmongering pigs will have to stand on the battle ground themselves, on the front line - a place NONE of our current leaders has yet occupied. Let them send OUR children to war AFTER their OWN.
Posted by chuck kitts on Aug 21, 2004 at 7:57 PM Ken may be mistaken and somethings Kurt said are obviously true.
However, in his article Kurt connects Christianity with BUSH and Hitler. What a big mistake for poor Kurt. This proves the Kurt is a simpleton in his analysis and ignorant of real history and facts. And so his opinions are valueless for the intelligent minds.
Posted by Pan Yianaros on Aug 21, 2004 at 8:25 PM A-ha, A-ha, yes we DO enjoy the discourse of the simple peasants. We ARE the inteligent minds, a-ha. Uhhhhhhhh, damn right we pulled out all the stops on Germany and Japan. They actually deserved it. Who let the neo nazi above there out of the looney bin?
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 21, 2004 at 9:03 PM Yea, this has gotten too weird to even respond to posts anymore. Love your neighbor a little more and yourselves a little less.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 21, 2004 at 9:13 PM >> This proves the Kurt is a simpleton in his analysis and ignorant of real history and facts. And so his opinions are valueless for the intelligent minds.
wow! you are an idiot.
Posted by there is none here on Aug 22, 2004 at 1:47 AM “There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil for every one hacking at the root”
Usury. “The bite of the serpent.” The bottom line. The root. The chain that binds us to the “Kingdom of Artiface.” The core of the Matrix.
We can prattle all day about this and that, but the chains of our slavery, (and we are slaves via the International Trade Cartel and the Hindu inspired ethic of “Dharma”), lie in the fact that we are supposedly in debt to a godlike banking system.
America’s Revolutionary War was not the result of a penny or two tax on tea. It really was inspired by the King’s currency act of 1763. Khazar jew bankers went to the king complaining America’s interest free currency was a threat to the world banking monopoly. The king complied with his masters, (the borrower is servant to the lender), and declared the currency illegal and gave the colonies fifty cents on the dollar. (How mad would you be)?
Adolf Hitler’s greatest crime was he declared usury illegal, (See National Socialist platform), and produced interest free currency in Germany that threatened the world banking monopoly. He also kicked international businesses out of Germany, mostly of which were run by jews. As for the “holacaust”.... Please, there is plenty of proof that suggests that story was stretched seriously. Like Henry Ford said, “If you say one bad thing about a jew, somewhere in the world a thousand of them drop dead. (This was before WWII and after a New York mayor, in 1919, claimed six million died in WWI).
The Koran states usurers are to be put to death. (THe Christian Bible holds the same position). Islamic banks do not loan with interest internally. They threaten the world banking monopoly. They threaten the jobs of the civil servants of the ITC, (Namely jews. Who by the way are paid well to take the blame and have been throughout history). As a result the are considered a “separatist” nation. Separatist nations cannot be tolerated. They must be crushed. (Just ask the Southern States of America about 1865, or the Boers of South Africa about 1900).
We cast our children’s bodies into the fires of Molech for the sake of protecting usurers. We sit high in the tree hanging on precariously and hack away at branches that will soon be replaced by a powerful root system that sits in the shadows and laughs at our stupidity and greed.
I love librarians too. But let’s put that aside for a moment.
Usury. “The bite of the serpent.” Let’s get our axes out folks.
Posted by Charles on Aug 22, 2004 at 10:05 AM Weeeeeird. Where do you get this stuff? Do you come with a bibliography? You sound like Neo Nazism’s answer to Robert Anton Wilson. I’m assuming at this point that calling you a Nazi is not an insult, as it would be to most people. I’m very curious about you, because you’re not like most white supremacists who are little more than snarling animals thirsty for blood, who would never pick up a book unless it was to burn it. You’ve actually read this stuff somewhere. You sound like one of those rare bookworm nazis we might rub shoulders with under Madam Librarian’s care. You defy the assumption that as a person becomes educated, an acceptance of other people and cultures will naturally follow. I’m assuming you haven’t traveled much, if at all, and that you don’t get out much, either. I imagine you do your neo-nazi reading in solitude, and have very little experience interacting with average people. You may even consider that a source of pride. I could be wrong, I really am interested to know, how can a person like you exist? How does someone come to a point in their lives where they are saying the kinds of things you say?
How does one refute the Holocaust? Where’s this “plenty of proof” you speak of? When our grandparents liberated Auschwitz, had the Jews immaciated themselves? Were they putting on a show? Did they build the gas chambers and the ovens themselves? While Germany was being bombed, they fabricated the giant pile of hair? What’s this business about Hinduism? And Jews being paid to take the blame? Seriously, where do you get this stuff?
Posted by tripped out by neo nazi on Aug 22, 2004 at 11:23 AM I will be perfectly blunt: VERY few people in this country give a good damn what the Koran says about anything… anything at all. Moreso, if we applied the law of Moses here in the U.S. we would be stoning people left and right. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” So don’t tell me that I ought to feel compelled by the bible to execute people for usery. While western morality may be based on Jedeo-Christian concepts of right and wrong, religion and politics make terrible bedfellows. This is why Middle Eastern countries have never and will never see peace. You cannot have peace where both sides believe that everything they do is the will of God. Only religion or some unhealthy feeling of obligation to the state could convince a man to take his own life while attempting to take the lives of his enemy. Try stopping someone motivated by your 70-some-odd virgins awating him in heaven. If that’s heaven, what virgin in their right mind would want to go? Heaven for whom? Trust me, I’ll take a little interest over your whacky religion any day.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 22, 2004 at 12:20 PM I think KV had a real bad experience in WW2. His main point seems to be censorship by the powers that be. Kind of like Kerry using lawyers to shut up the swift boat vets, and using the FEC to try and get Unfit for Command pulled off the bookshelves. Censorship indeed.KV just wants all of the lies, filth, deceptive books and literary trash left on the shelves for all to read. Maybe even the worst book of all, The Bible. How dare KV think like this. But we are all being a bit negative now. I mean think of all the good things Hitler did. He built excellent roads and loved small children and animals. I think he was also a vegatarian. The people of germany loved that sick tyrant. Half of america hates GW maybe he is bitter medicine for the world. dont worry he’ll be gone in a little over four years.
Posted by steve on Aug 22, 2004 at 6:46 PM I hope it’s only a few months from now the brain-dead stench-ridden, corn-infested turd Bush is gone. Flushed never to be seen again, I hope.
Once that inferno of stupidity and greed is out, we can concentrate on the smaller fires.
Posted by Windex on Aug 22, 2004 at 7:46 PM i do not understand how americans can be hate so. We invade other countries for oil, whats wrong with that? OH wait, we ‘said’ it was a war on terror. If that was the case why didnt we just assasinate Saddamm? So many lives saved, does anybody recall when the Sheite community supported the US? I acknoledge that Bush is not the best leader. What why do citizens of other nations wish death to all americans and what we stand for? Because logically Americans are all simple minded boobs interested only in guns, beer, and nascar(not that there’s anything wrong with that).
We as Americans are so blind to the world around us that we willingly follow our retarted leader to war, only to end our miserable, disgusting existence. Im sorry to those of you with such a synical world view to wish death upon an entire nation. If after reading the posts in the forum it has still not occured to you that not all American’s seek the distruction of the middle east, I advise to re-read. I for one would be more confident in a herd of donkeys as a cummulitive president than Bush. I do not trust him, and I do not trust his advisors, nor do i trust Kerry. Also to “ryan conover” - Im sorry you misunderstood my last post, it was not an attack on any class of citizen, I for one cannot speak for anyone but myself, being an extremely poor lower class citizen.
Posted by that guy on Aug 22, 2004 at 8:18 PM Mr. Vonnegut,
I am very sorry that you made that statement, “Bush is a Christian? So was Adolf Hitler.” That is a very bigoted and narrow minded remark, on the level of a white person in 1964 Mississippi saying that if a black person steals the cash box, then clearly all blacks steal, therefore we cannot hire or trust any black man. Where is your tolerance for others? Surely, some of your best friends must be Christians?
Posted by Karen Angel on Aug 22, 2004 at 11:26 PM Ken:
Keep your mind open to truth—the knowledge of truth only strengthens oneself… and subsequently those one loves. Fear it, fight it not. Seek it, welcome it—like one would life itself!
Posted by Sari on Aug 23, 2004 at 12:11 AM Mr. Vonnegut, sadly, is correct on all counts.
The august New York Times, the Washington Post and other mass communication publications erred in their embrace of Bush group-think. The result has been a thousand American deaths, countless and uncounted Iraqi deaths and the loss of sympathy for the US following 911.
Mr. Vonnegut dares to speak what is obvious now to the brains at the NYT and the Post… that the nation was tricked, cajoled and prodded to a war that will unleash generations of war…
Billions later… the US awash in debt… mothers and fathers grieving for their sons and daughters…
It’s a shame it was all about getting re-elected.
God bless Kurt Vonnegut.
Start listening to the truth America. You are heading to the fascist abyss.Niles Youngblood
Posted by niles youngblood on Aug 23, 2004 at 1:13 AM I enjoyed Mr Vonnegut’s piece. It is easy to see why he is a succesful writer. Smart shorthand and deft images that cover the essence of these most scary and disheartening of times.
Posted by Bob on Aug 23, 2004 at 3:33 AM It’s so sad. Godwin’s Law. http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html
Kurt lost the debate before it even started. How a man has fallen so, so far.
Posted by Eric on Aug 23, 2004 at 5:02 AM Really enjoyed Vonnegut’s piece.
Sadly, EVERYTHING in Michael Moore’s “Fahrenheit 9/11” is the truth. The ONLY thing I was unaware of was the music played in those ‘tanks’ in the heat of battle. Pundits can prattle on and on about this ‘side’ or that ‘side’ of the “truth”. I simply know what the truth is, and it is that Bush and his minion are evil and were behind 911. It is simply that simple. Just understand that the ignorant and the diehard conservatives are never going to be persuaded otherwise. Once upon a time, I worked for the Rand corporation and was privy to high security. Trust me, Moore is correct. The naysayers will always try to make the truth disappear. I don’t even listen to them anymore because they are so “in the dark” as to make themselves mute by my reckoning. They can fuss and fume all they want about those of us (like Michael Moore) who know what really happened. I simply don’t give a flying flip anymore about anything they say because I know they are just plain wrong. It doesn’t matter because we know what really happened and that is all that matters. The laws of the Universe will avenge us because it isn’t nice to fool around with those! And, frankly, one day I will call them down to do just that—avenge us. (It’s called “manipulations of energies” for the unenlightened). I have other ‘fish to fry’ at the moment and can’t be bothered. BTW, if Hillary Clinton would have killed someone with her automobile like Laura Bush did, there would have been at least 16 books written about it by now!!!
What goes around, comes around.
Raven
www.ravensgatekeep.com
Posted by Raven on Aug 23, 2004 at 5:52 AM Hey tripped out neo nazi….
“If you don’t know history, you don’t know anything.”
Let me guess.. You are a modern college student smoking dope and wondering about your sexual identity while wallowing in an ancient Hindu ethic of “acceptance and tolerance” known as “Dharma.”
I’m right aren’t I?
Where do I get this stuff?
If you really care, (and I bet you don’t), start with Chandragupta trading 3000 elephants to Alexander the Great for the territory he conquered. Then check out King Asoka about 320 BC.
Those who forget the past are condemed to repeat it. We are repeating ourselves… But then, you never even knew the past, did you?
Posted by Charles on Aug 23, 2004 at 6:53 AM For Mr. Vonnegut-
At what temperature do tv’s combust? All hail the gaurdians of the written word! When our “big brains” finally do end life on this planet, I hope the next forms of life find my collection of your books to study and analyze our idiosyncrasies.
To the above critics-
Hitler, like Bush, proclaimed God had called him to lead the people and also entertained himself with drugs.
And we ARE more feared and hated now. If it was our intent to erradicate terrorism, why give so many more countries so many more reasons to hate us?
And for Ken, who believes the votes in Florida were “counted” and “recounted”, what about those that weren’t EVER counted because they were wrongfully put on a felon list? Over 800 of them- and the vote was “decided” by 500 and some votes? HMMMMMM.
The heart IS a lonely hunter Mr. Vonnegut. Keep on writing!
Posted by kim on Aug 23, 2004 at 8:23 AM Charles,
I was serious.
“Let me guess.. You are a modern college student
smoking dope and wondering
about your sexual identity while wallowing in an
ancient Hindu ethic of
“acceptance and tolerance” known as “Dharma.”I’m right aren’t I?”
I want you to know that the only reason I’m going to answer your question is not out of some kind of vanity, like trying to prove to a bunch of internet users, whom I don’t even know, what kind of a person I really am. I’ll answer your question pertaining to my personality because I think it might be healthy for us all to have a simple example of how we all can be misled by our own biases, assumptions, and preconceived notions.You were wrong on all counts. Actually, you weren’t even close, not by a nation of ballparks.
Now, not that I’m terribly interested, just a little interested, as it might pertain to the answer to my earlier question to you, and for the sake of prid quoth quo: was I right about YOU?
I’ll go check on those elephants you were talking about. You’re right I’ve never heard of ‘em. You DID get that right about me.
BTW I only use caps because I can’t use italics. No shouting intended or whatever the internet rules are.
Oh, and that’s Tripped Out BY Neo Nazi, thank you. It’s an important distinction, don’t you think?
Don’t go fighting anybody’s wars for them.
Posted by Still Trippin on Aug 23, 2004 at 11:57 AM Kim,
where did you get the number 800? Choice Point (the private company that compiled the list) said the number of ineligible voters on the felon list at 94,000. Investigative journalists claim to have evidence that over 90 percent of those people were listed in error. That way more than the handful that gave Bush Florida’s electoral votes.
And Gore DID win the POPular vote.
I used to be against electoral votes, but then David Duke got elected by popular vote. Hmm. Maybe college ain’t so bad after all.
Posted by Red Bean Counter on Aug 23, 2004 at 12:08 PM OH! I get it! You’re not a Nazi at all! You’re INDIAN!
Am I right?
And therefore I can’t call you a racist pig or whatever, because looking down on other people is your culture, and I have to respect your culture. I guess you’ve interacted with a few Westerners, I guess that’s how you found your way to this website. Then I guess you know that all the cultural concepts that go along with your caste system kind of clash with the Western concepts of equality. In the West’s defense, the fact that there is no such thing as physical or mental superiority of any race has been scientifically proven.
I’ve seen a couple of those websites where Indians sign on and basically just say horrible things about other castes. Some of it is really disgusting, perverted stuff. Then of course there’s your typical race-traitor stuff, and any woman who marries outside of her caste is a whore who should have all kinds of horrible sexual violence done to her bla bla bla. Who can respect themselves when they talk that way about anybody?
In light of the hundreds of entries on this incredibly highbrow thread, I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt and assume, since I admit I’ve never been to India, that the majority of such a giant country are basically decent enough people who are just playing the roles society has handed them, and wouldn’t actually behave in accordance with what I’ve seen on some of those sites.Please tell me I’m right.
Posted by Am I Right? on Aug 23, 2004 at 12:51 PM I’m a little late to this fray, but what the heck…and if you don’t mind, I’m going to comment on Vonnegut’s piece, which seems long-forgotten.
There are serious arguments - intellectual and humanistic - to make against US actions in Iraq. This isn’t one of them. This piece has the moral and literary qualities I would expect from a college sophomore, writing in the school paper.
It seems too fluffy and unoriginal a piece to debate, but I do have to take on one line: “In case you haven’t noticed, we are now almost as feared and hated all over the world as the Nazis were.”
I suppose Vonnegut has his out by slipping the word “almost” in there. But, ah, did the brightest people around the world come to Nazi Germany for higher education and jobs in the 1930’s? Did Germany struggle with immigration problems, as millions of the world’s citizens tried to move there? Did German cultural stars - of the screen, the stage, the playing field - continue to capture the world’s imagination? Were German troops welcome, invited, implored to stay within their borders, by nations around the world, to protect them?
The United States has made, and will continue to make, mistakes in the war on terror, regardless of who wins in November. Easy solutions are unavailable. But this sort of article doesn’t qualify as serious debate.
Posted by Don on Aug 23, 2004 at 12:55 PM On the post by ‘am I right?’ I have to say I’m willing to bet that you are. We are a generation who has grown up believing, for the most part, that all races are equal, and that every culture is valid and deserves a certain amount of respect. We imagine that our open-mindedness is at least mostly the norm in other societies, especially in this day and age. Unfortunately this is not true at all. We are attacked by muslim fundamentalists (which, by the way, is just another way of saying that they believe in a literal interpretation of their religion) and are told that “islam is a religion of peace”. To believe that you have to be completely ignorant of everything the koran says. Really, read it sometime. If you find yourself somewhat disgusted by the laws prescribed therein don’t be suprised. If you find the actions of the “prophet” Mohammed in the Koran a little bit scary, like setting a fire on a man’s chest or killing someone for refusing to divilge the location of buried treasure, don’t be suprised. Nevermind that Mohammed broke his own laws many timee. Nevermind that while he supposedly preached tolerance of “people of the book” (Jews and Christians), their three choices after being conquered in an unprovoked invasion were to pay tribute for not converting, to convert to islam, or to be killed. He apparently believed that Islam was revealed to him as he went along, which is why there was never any contradiction between his words and his actions. In muc the same way, the founder of the Jehova’s witnesses would be discommunicated as a heretic if he were to be involved in the religion today, since the ‘truth’ is revealed over time, and still being relealed. Don’t just write me off as a bigot, read the Koran and historical accounts of Mohammed, and then try and tell me that islam is “a religion of peace”. Islam means ‘to submit’, complete submission to their law. The scariest thing about them is that they have no problem in forcing you to submit. They don’t go around the neighborhood with pamphlets knocking on your door like mormons. Look at how the Christians are being persecuted in Iraq now. The reason we think of these fundamentalists as radical is because in the last century we’ve relaxed so much in our religious conviction and literal interpretation of scriptures. This is not the case in the middle east. We are aware of some of the harsh punishments prescribed by Mosaic law. Christianity served to dilute the strength of some of these punishments, but it didn’t do away with them. In the same way few people wish to bring back public executions like hanging, which in the past has been something of a community social event, we’ve developed somewhat of an aversion to being judged and prosecuted according to strict observance of religious law. Many of us may call ourselves Christians and believe in much of those laws and punishments, but we like them as more of a suggestion than actual law. We love the freedom to choose our religion and to follow it to the letter or to not do so. This is a big reason that the middle east has never and will never see peace. Religion, and the dominance of and particular faith have a very real immediate and noticeable impact on the way people there must conduct their daily lives, and we have a comfortable distance from that reality. The relative poverty so prevalent in places like that is another concern. Pride is still important, even to someone who has nothing materially speaking. Pride in ideas and fath are the only things that you can keep. If you can assert yourself by means of strict adherance to religious law and the execution thereof, you can become upwardly mobile socially, if not financially. This whole rant relates to India by way of the middle east, of the realities of the east, religious and social. We just love muslims, but would any of us want to have them as the majority? Do you really believe you would then live in anyting but a theocracy? I in no way advocate hatred of muslims or middle-easterners nor violence toward any of them. It’s just something to think about. Come to your own conclusions but don’t deny the realities of the situation because of some fear of coming off as politically incorrect. This is where the above Jew-hating Indian is coming from.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 23, 2004 at 2:18 PM Mr. Vonnegut,
It is amazing to me that you would on one hand say that we are killing and torturing Iraqis and others simply because of their religion and race, and then on the other hand use that line about Bush and Hitler both being Christians. Why are we so tolerant about a religion that believes that it is a direct way to heaven to become a suicide bomber, enslaves its women and declares Jihads? That seems to be okay, because theirs is a noble religion and culture, unlike Chrisitianity? Sure, more killing has been done in the name of religion than any other cause, but basically, Christians have stopped doing that, while other religions are still carrying on the age old tradition, including Islam.
Millions and billions of dollars is in the hands of leaders of most of the other nations in the world, while their poor are living out lives that would make our poor look like upper middle class, yet you criticize our leaders and our way of life and say we are hated for it. Sure, we are hated for it. But those other countries are hated, too, and by their own people, who, by the way, have more right to complain than we do, as arm chair quarterbacks sitting at our computers.
Mr. Vonnegut, I watched an interview with a man that had lost his leg in Iraq, and was going to go back to Iraq to finish out his mission. Honestly, I would be cynical like you are, Mr. Vonnegut, and I’d be calling Geo. Bush every name I could think of and I probably would be sitting around feeling sorry for myself. So I was amazed at that man, who having given more than should be asked of anyone to give, is willing to go back again and possibly give the ultimate sacrifice of his life. I saw a mother interviewed on Mother’s Day from Iraq who said that it was her SECOND mother’s day she had spent in Iraq away from her 3 children. I don’t think any mother should be away from her children like that, but that woman was sacrificing her family for our way of life. Those people should not be called de-humanized people for their sacrifice and their strong beliefs. I’m sure that you still feel the same way as the hippies did about “pigs” and it carries over to the soldier (remember the “Universal Soldier?”) That is cynical and unrealistic. Although its not fair or ideal, we have a need on this planet for firemen, policemen and soldiers who will fight and die for us against human enemies and natural disasters. You don’t like it? Joint the club. This side of heaven, unfortunately, that is the way that life is on this planet.
Negotiation is the way to go? Unless we could negotiate with suicide bombers and get them to see the error of their ways, and get them to give up on the idea of 7 virgins in heaven, how else can we talk them down? They have the right to their relgion, and contrary to popular belief, Christians have the right to their beliefs, too. I would guess that it would be very hard to negotiate with a suicide bomber to tell him what he has believed his whole life is wrong and he ought to give it up. The hippies used to say to soldiers to lay down their weapons and just start loving each other. I have a hard time loving my boss, let alone a suicide bomber or a pilot flying a plane into the Trade Center. But that’s just me, I guess.
Posted by Karen Angel on Aug 23, 2004 at 2:33 PM Get over the election 2000? Why? We will face the same in 2004.
Look at the damage done by an illegal administration hell bent on their Armaggeddon agenda?
When librarians are the fighting 69th in America, you know how dumbed down the rest of America is. Bless the librarians, for they understand the Constitution.
Now if we could only elect one as President.
Posted by Meria on Aug 23, 2004 at 3:08 PM All,
Charles is correct in his interpretations of “usury” and is correct in regards to usury being the single biggest “weight” on the shoulders of the working population at the present time.
The people who criticized Charles and questioned his beliefs didn’t really question anything about his statements on usury itself - only that he’s wrong about the holocaust and that christian “law” would not work or be wanted in the Western World in our present time. They saw the red flag (any criticism/questioning of jews or of their history or Israel) they have been conditioned to respond to and did so. They forgot about everything else Charles said and just thought of him as a fanatical hate-monger and lunatic.
Unless one has an understanding of economics and what money is (a representation of labor that can/will produce goods and/or services) and how it can be manipulated, one will not even know one is being manipulated. Until one understands money is a function of labor (goods and services) and not labor is a function of money, one will not even have the ability to comprehend how our whole system of trading works and is manipulated.
Also, just because Charles has different views on historical events does not mean he is a neo-nazi. There are more and more people coming out challenging history every day (ALL history) - it is difficult for us to determine who is correct. Everyone has a different take on the facts and there is no longer any way to prove or disprove who is correct in regards to many historical issues and events.
My point is just because someone questions something does not mean they are to be immediately labled dumb, evil and crazy - If charles had questioned the validity of Muslim history or how many people Stalin put to death, he would not have been labeled as he was (although he may have been debated), but he questioned Jewish history and was immediately lambasted. That is a double standard that has to stop being accepted by all of us who are familiar with the ways of the critical thought process. To create and perpetuate a topic that is so socially taboo that to merely bring it up invites subjecting oneself to the condioned and virulent responses of the masses, is the beginning of the end for any society that once considered itself “open”.
There can be “truth”, but lets explore all the posibilities first without becoming harsh and agressive to others even if we find their lines of thought unacceptable…
I suggest everyone check out sites like Mises.org if they want to learn more about our current fiat based monetary system and the problems it causes at home and throughout the world.
Posted by JP on Aug 23, 2004 at 3:33 PM WHOAH! I screwed up. I screwed up big time. I somehow got Charles mixed up with Hugh. Hugh’s the guy who ranted about “mongrelising MTV negroid rap culture” and “hoards of third world migrants” a couple of pages back. I guess I saw the bit in Charles’ post about doubting the Holocaust and the stuff that seemed like the same old “Jewish conspiracy” song-and-dance and just assumed oh, the racist is back.
Well, a high school teacher of mine once said that to “assume” makes an “ASS out of U and ME.” Cute, right?
Thanks to JP’s post, I found this error. JP’s post made me go, “wait a minute, wasn’t this the guy who was bitching about mongrelization and negroids?” So I searched back through and found that, no, it wasn’t the same guy at all.
All else being equal, I sincerely apologize for my mistake. Calling you a neo-Nazi isn’t quite justified. You seem to qualify for the title of Nazi apologist, if one wants to get into the semantics. Not exactly an enviable title in most circles. But if you don’t advocate genocide and racial superiority, I shouldn’t call you a neo-Nazi.
Are you a racist? Do you advocate racial superiority and genocide? The reason I’m asking is, if you did, I could make a cute little excuse for my mistake and say,
“Sorry, all you racists look alike to me.” (rimshot)
Good one, eh? Yeah, I was pretty proud of it. Thinking of getting it copyrighted. I wouldn’t want it to be misapplied though. So if you truly aren’t a racist neo-Nazi, I’m sorry for calling you one, as that would be an insult, as I indicated earlier.
You will have a tough time convincing me that the Holocaust was exaggerated, though, or that somehow any group can hold the entire human world in a grip of invisible slavery over centuries.And while I’m at the business of setting it straight:
Hey Hugh! What’s wrong with negroid? You know, when you talk about “mongrelising,” using a term usually applied to dogs, you raise a few points. First of all, as long as you’re comparing humans to dogs, mutts are the smartest and healthiest dogs. Pure-bred dogs are usually stupid and afflicted with health problems. In the human world, we have another term for this kind of “purity.” It’s called INBREEDING.
Posted by ASS on Aug 23, 2004 at 4:45 PM Reading a lot of stupid liberal fools recycling the same garbage about Florida. The alleged “disenfranchisment of blacks” rumor was started by cheap, sleezy race hustlers like Jesse Jackson and parroted by the liberal white fools who believe any sort of garbage as long as a black person said it; by the way, Chorch’s Chicken causes sterility too. What about the mainly GOP absentee ballots that were tossed or I guess it doens’t matter if soldiers get disenfranchised. Any credible study of the election had determined Bush won fairly but the pseudo intellectuals, or dishonest, anti-intellectual emotiaonalists, on the Left have to keep bringing it up to justify their own sleeze and shoddiness.
Kurt Vonnegut is a doddering old fool and a moral degenerate. He whitewashed the Nazis and the Communists and was considered himself a hero because he’s a pacifist. I doubt that he has re-evaluated his stand against the Cold War because he prolly never availed himself of released Soviet sources that confirmed almost all the charges made against the USSR were true. That would be what an honest intellectual might do, unlike Kurt. He is actually an immature moral coward who can’t bring it upon himself that while war is ugly, sometimes it must be fought. Instead he relies on fellow artistic scumbags like Michael Moore to educate his fraying brain and churns out cheap shots like Hitler was a Chrisitan too. This prove just how dishonest and stupid Kurt is: Hitler was born Catholic but rejected Chritianity cause Jesus was a Jew. Hitler didn’t publicly trumpet that for political reasons only. That proves Kurt is just a brainless left wing pig who substitutes hearsay and cheap emotional arguments in place of facts, truth and reason. I’m going to burn his books just to get the stink out of my house!
Maybe there wasn’t much of any weapons of mass destruction left in Iraq, but at least no one cooked up a fraud to prove otherwise. SOme say Saddam shipped a whole lot to his Baathists brothers in Syria but a leftist fool like Vonnegut has to play the victim like this is Pravda in 1950!
Posted by Jakemeister on Aug 23, 2004 at 4:59 PM Ryan Conover comes off like a typical, anti-intellectual leftist who spout the same old cliches over and over again just like the rest of his herd!
Posted by Jakemeister on Aug 23, 2004 at 5:03 PM Hey Jakemeister, nice frat boy name by the way, if we want to talk anti-intellectual let’s look at your statement about Hitler rejecting Christianity. Try looking that up. I don’t have the patience to go find the sources,but I have before, and never once did Hitler reject Christianity. He did believe that Jesus was an Aryan and he adored Martin Luther (who was one of the biggest anti-semites ever next to Hitler, again, look it up) Actually fug it, I’m not wasting my time, look here: http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm
Ok? You should know how to look things up, that’s what college is for, to learn how to look things up, har-har. I would love for you to point one of the “cliches” that I “spout”. Comeon, if I’ve spouted a cliche bring it to my attention, I would really appreciate that Jakemeister. I know a lot more than you think.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 23, 2004 at 5:27 PM Frat boy, oy vey, now I am a frat boy with a golden retriever and a Jeep Grand Cherokee to boot in Ridgefield CT. The fact is, Hitler was not a practising Catholic or a Christian. There was a nazi sponsored church that mainly fed off of the Lutherans that did assert that Jesus was an Aryan. That doesnt mean Hitelr actually believed in it. I have done extensive research on Hitler and no one ever accused him of being a practicing Christian. Nazism was more pre-Christian Nordic myth and folk lore than anything else. Hitler admired Martin Luther for his German nationalism and his anti-Semitism, not his religious message. What that boils down to is that Vonnegut made a very inaccurate cheap shot at Bush that is contemptible, but utterly predictable based on his contempt for the US and patriotism. If Bush was like Hitler, would a scum like Vonnegut have the guts to say that publicly and risk death? He is scum because he uses his freedoms to spout trash, which he is free to do. That is a right but merits no respect. As far as being racist against Muslims and Arabs in the War on Terror, it would be like saying we were the racist bad guys in WWll cause we picked on Germans, Japanes and Italians. The Muslims declared war on us and many danced in the streets on 9/11. Anyone who danced in the streets on 9/11 is a barbaric pig and my enemy and that includes the folks who rationalize such behavior with the same old US hating canards and half truths!
Posted by Jakemeister on Aug 23, 2004 at 5:54 PM It doesn’t mean that Hitler believed it, but do you presume to speak for Hitler himself? Who are to you know what someone else inwardly believes? Certain individuals within the nazi party were known occultists. It is also known that in general, Hitler did not subscribe to those views. I can see you coming to your conclusion if the only “research” you’ve done on the matter is to watch “Hitler and the occult” on the history channel. As much as I love the history channel, many of those programs are based on a lot of speculation. Read Mein Kampf and follow it up with some of his speeches if you doubt what I say.
Patriotism has nothing to do with whether or not you believe what our elected leaders say Jakemeister. Patriotism had to do with love of country and your people. You do no service to your country by giving all your trust and henceforth all the power to the president. Remember they are supposed to work for us, not us for them.
As for calling Mr. Vonnegut a scum, I could just as easily call you ill-bred white trash. Do insults feel good Jakemeister?
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 23, 2004 at 7:05 PM Maybe if they had just let Hitler be an artist like he had wanted WWII would never have happened. His artwork is pretty good actually. It would have gotten him into any art school today, dunno why it didn’t do the trick then. Sort of a creepy thought there.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 23, 2004 at 7:12 PM This makes me very sad. I have gotten immense pleasure from your works; I did not realize you were among the loony left.
Posted by DWAYNE CHASTEEN on Aug 23, 2004 at 7:15 PM How the hell did you not know he wasn’t a right-wing idiot if you’ve read his work?
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 23, 2004 at 7:23 PM Flame wars by adolescents don’t interest me, so I won’t respond further after this, but there is a difference between holding leftist views and going completely over the top, as he now seems to have done.
Posted by DWAYNE CHASTEEN on Aug 23, 2004 at 7:35 PM Some more words of wisdom from Mr. Vonnegut - i definately concur with his heroic librarians stance.
As for Ken and the other ‘super-patriots’(the blind faithful)... there ARE parallels between the Bush administration and the Nazi party - though one clear distinction, in his first 4 years Hitler improved the German economy.
Posted by Gary on Aug 23, 2004 at 10:04 PM YAY FOR GARY.. A FACT THAT DOESNT NEED TO BE SUPPORTED!! I applaud you sir
Posted by that guy on Aug 23, 2004 at 10:26 PM You are all morons, save for Ken and Fiona. That includes Mr. Vonnegut. I’m almost embarassed to have all his books on my shelf. He sounds like an absolute moron.
Posted by Teriaki on Aug 24, 2004 at 12:19 AM I’m sorry, that should read *fucking* morons. I just re-read what some of you wrote.
You should seriously seek professional help.
Posted by Teriaki on Aug 24, 2004 at 12:21 AM Permit me to put in my two cents on this matter on whether Hitler was really a Christian or no.
I recommend a book and a four episode DVD as background to prove Hitler and Naziism was more Nordic/Occultic than anything else.
First, the book which - last time I checked - was available at Barnes & Noble, or could be bought on Amazon or Ebay. It is “The Nazis and the Occult” by Dusty Sklar, published by Dorset Press.
The four-episode DVD is called “The Occult History of the Third Reich”, originally made by La Mancha Productions in England, and put in a two DVD set by Eagle Media (www.eagle-rock.com) as part of their “The War Zone” series.
Both book and DVD series should aid all parties involved in this tangent from the Vonnegut discussion - especially Jakemeister and Mr. Conover. Thank you.
Posted by Outside Observer on Aug 24, 2004 at 12:36 AM “The Muslims” did not declare war on the U.S. You’ve got to get that out of your head. It’s like saying “The Christians” sodomized civilians at Abu Ghirab. This attitude of seeing all Muslims as the same plays right into bin Laden’s hands. That was his plan, remember? Start a war between The West and Islam. All he had to do was throw the first punch. He knew the majority of Weserners didn’t know a Muslim from a Sikh, and would just attack any “raghead” that they could find, thus stirring the world’s Muslim majority into righteous indignation. There, all of the triggers have been set off. Your boy Bush even praised Islam and said we weren’t at war with Islam.
The “War On Terror” is like trying to rid your house of cockroaches with an M-1.
And the disenfranchisement of voter thing was not started by Jesse Jackson. I dare say he’s not that inventive. Investigative journalist Greg Palast actually did the legwork, investigating the fishy election back in December of 2000. He and his team found the faulty felon list.
www.gregpalast.com
or read his book The Best Democracy Money Can Buy
He’s no Democratic mouthpiece. He’s just as critical of Dems as he is of Repubs.
“Some people say” is one of the favorite rhetorical tricks used by Fox News, that “fair and balanced” neocon mouthpiece. Who’s the parrot? Braaaaak!
One more thing, Vonnegut is a veteran, boy! He wasn’t in the Air Guard while ghetto kids were shipped off to a meat grinder in the jungle. He was in WWII in Europe. Show some respect!
Posted by waste of time? on Aug 24, 2004 at 1:31 AM I agree, it isn’t germaine to the thread, but Hitler never billed himself as a Christian. He ha an evil hodgepodge of different beliefs that lacked any easily definable label. It was a cheap rhetorical shot by Vonnegut, and since most people in the USA are Christians, a slap in the face of anyone who supports Bush. It seems that when we fight back against the Muslim jihadists, who openly declare holy war in the name of Islam, that somehow we are the dirty culprits because we take them at their word. It would be like calling the Jews in WWll racists because they despised and feared the Germans.
Posted by Jakemeister on Aug 24, 2004 at 1:36 AM Nothing is more depressing than American self-loathing. And Vonnegut’s fractured prose has never looked so threadbare. I guess that’s because it supports no argument, and merely echoes the liberal pieties of his martini circuit. So that’s what one of the best voices of America has been reduced to: a parrot.
Does he really think that Americans (he said ‘we,’ not the America govt) are almost as feared as the Nazis were? If so, I must ask: when is the last time he left America?
Does he really think that American foreign policy is based on the vilification of a certain religion? If so, has he informed Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, and, say, Kuwait?
Does he really think that the election was stolen? He can certainly think that, and an argument can be made to that end (although KV does not bother to do so). But: Is he aware of the military votes that were disqualified because they did not have postmark, which is not even required for a valid vote?
Most of these points have been made above, so I will leave with something I have not yet seen.
KV makes one good point: that the army is based on poor people. But, that is really the fault of the educated anyway. I cannot blame KV for this, because unlike most of his fellow-travellers, he knows the horror of war. But since the middle and upperclass children of the 1960s protested the draft and a more or less equal military service, the military has taken whoever it can. And its pool is not eastern seaboard university professors, professionals or entertainers. A much better concept for an army would be requiring those who own property to defend it. This is what the Romans did until the foundation of the Empire - but then the wealthy found a way to shift this burden onto the poor, and on to foreigners. The funny thing is, they did not end up complaining about this privilege that they accorded themselves, unlike the vast majority of the American cognoscenti and professoriate.
I will always admire KV. That’s why I find his piece here so disturbing, and thoughtless.
cheers, Jay
Posted by Jay Aich on Aug 24, 2004 at 10:33 AM Comments on Mr. Vonnegut’s article and some of the posts:
1. Indeed: hurray for librarians!
2. Bush won the election. This is a sad fact. It would be a sad fact, too, if Gore had won.
3. Kerry is no more Catholic than Abe Foxman.
4. Bush is no more Christian than Abe Foxman’s cat.
5. Hitler was a pagan. He was also a politican who had to convince a mostly Christian constituency. He did this by talking the talk once in a while, just as the warmongering “Christian” Bush and the pro-abortion, warmongering “Catholic” Kerry do.
6. In all wars of the 20th and present centuries, orthodox Christianity has been the loser. There is a reason for this and it’s not by chance. The people of Iraq have not been liberated, and Iraqi Christians are pouring out of that country by the thousands.
7. The present goings-on are not “right wing Christian”; they aren’t Christian at all and they aren’t conservative at all. They are dispensationalist Protestant, Talmudic, Zionist, and neo-conservative, the karass from Hell.
8. As Mr. Vonnegut intimated, and thanks to Republicans and Democrats who voted for the war and the Patriot Act, freedom in America is over, except at our libraries and in deep stages of sleep. Teach your children well, trust in the good God, and arm yourselves well. Things will get ugly fast.
Posted by Tracy on Aug 24, 2004 at 10:33 AM It IS unjust that the burden of fighting a war now falls on the poor. However the way we disregard our artists, intellectuals and educated it’s some wonder that we havent been throwing them in front of enemy fire by way of a draft.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 24, 2004 at 2:54 PM I believe that the coment by the author stating that Hitler was a Christian was intended to point out that even the most evil of dictators ultimately believe that their actions are for the common good. Remember, Hitler was an idealist who believed he could make the world a better place. That is the comparison to Bush, they are both idealist, not that they are both Christians. This is intended as a warning to those like Ken who would follow such a leader without considering the ultimate consequences to such policies regardless of how “moral” or “Christian” such policies claim to be.
The most important thing for any political leader to remember is that there are no simple solutions.
Posted by col.smith on Aug 24, 2004 at 3:04 PM Jay & Tracy,
KV does not loathe himself. He loathes a President and an Administration that gained office due to a rigged election (see http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=27&row=2
for FACTS) and an unconstitutional act by the Supreme Court, and he loathes the image of America that that Administration has spread over the world.KV is teetering on the edge of giving up on the human race, but takes comfort in the fact that the America he loves is alive and well in librarians and books.
Posted by Ludwig on Aug 24, 2004 at 3:12 PM Dear Ludwig,
Self-loathing, not for himself as an individual, but for himself as an American. Such Americans are nothing but a mirror for the opinions of other nations, especially those nations with antipathy for America. Defining your country’s actions through the cant of other nations—now that’s self-loathing. And dangerous. And neurotic. When one is taken over by object attachment, one loses oneself.
Now, I do not hold that America is behond reproach, the GWB et al are wonderful, or anything like that. But when I read drivel like KV’s above, which merely preaches to the choir and replaces argument with cute phraseology and emotional pleas, I go through the roof. And, I do find it amazing that it can be FACT (shouting, it seems, helps) that the election was stolen, but contentious that GWB won it. It would seem to be the other way around to me.
That said, I am glad that KV can take time away from his giving-up to give us status updates. I, for one am sure the human race will outlast KV. As someone else said above, his pathology makes for fine novels, but crap public policy.
cheers, Jay (not American, btw).
Posted by Jay Aich on Aug 24, 2004 at 3:45 PM Ken, you’d be wise to get informed. It is your democratic duty. Millions of people have been KILLED (!) by U.S. power (directly and by strategic proxy) since *AFTER* WWII, and millions more displaced and dehumanized. *After* WWII! That’s barely a 60 year time frame. If we want to include the atrocities of WWII itself (Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, and so on…), not to mention the blood spilled before the two world wars in various places, not to mention the genocide of the N. American natives (NATIVES, you fools, NATIVES! - they’re not Indians!) you may be too weak to comprehend the horror. But this, coming from a Canadian, I assure you, is not an “anti-American” statement. It is a pure and simple fact of power. No state is innocent, and understand that the larger the international power of a state, the larger the scale of its atrocities. I won’t tell you any more - it is up to you to read into your nation’s history. I hope you find the internal records post WWII that e-x-p-l-i-c-i-t-l-y endorse and lay out the groundwork for world domination, by propaganda, coercion and force.
For those of you who argued that Washington screwed up for trying to impose democracy when Iraqis want a theocracy - total bollocks! Washington is NOT interested in Iraqi democracy - never was. It is NOT interested in democracy ANYWHERE where there are “strategic interests”. Again, if you LOOK UP THE FACTS (please, please, please read some goddamn BOOKS and get your noses out of the PATHETIC press!!!) you just might learn about this pesky word: PROPAGANDA. All states use it. All businessmen use it. This is common knowledge now, in the 21st century, among the world’s people. But still, no matter HOW the shit hits the fan and no matter HOW harshly the truth rears its ugly head in the real world, patriots and zealots all over still think that it is only the OTHER guys who use propaganda! America, for fuck sakes, wake up (no offense to posters here, and Americans in general, who ARE/HAVE waking/woken up). And to lessen the offense further, believe me, Canucks and Britons and Australians are full of blind people too.
Iraq, starting in 1991, is the most obscene and crude propaganda exercise of our times. How many of you know the history of CIA operations there, of Britain post WWI dividing Kuwait from Iraq, of oil strategists playing tiddly-winks with the people there and throughout the Middle East over the past century. Goddamnit! Get smart. Wake up. Can’t be subtle about it anymore. The situation is too damn absurd.
turtleman
Posted by turtleman on Aug 24, 2004 at 4:18 PM Jay,
Thank you for using your power of reason and not stooping to personal attacks like some people on this thread.
I am pretty sure that KV considers himself the same kind of admirable American that librarians are: one who is pretty passionate about Freedom of the Press. American Newspapers and magazines, by and large, did a TERRIBLE (oops, hope my “shouting” doesn’t annoy you)...a terrible job of critiquing the Administration’s “cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war.” Osama’s the one responsible for 9/11, so let’s go after Saddamn, whom Osama calls a “Satan?”
Your characterization of KV’s piece as drivel is merely an opinion with which I happen to disagree. I already agreed with everything in it before I read it—just wanted to see if he was providing any new ammunition I could use. But I found it to be based on a good mix of his reasoning and emotion (although he shot himself in the foot with that Bush-Hitler analogy if he was hoping to persuade nonbelievers).
Once again, forgive me for shouting, but it is an established fact that that 2000 Florida Presidential Election was rigged by Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris, Jeb’s Secretary of State AND Chair of the Bush-Cheney Florida campaign. Talk about a conflict of interest! If you have any doubt, buy, beg, borrow or steal a copy of Greg Palast’s “The Best Democracy Money Can Buy” and read just Chapter 1. The crime is documented therein.
We here in The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave have a Constitution that spells out pretty specifically how our Presidents are elected. Nowhere in that august document does it grant the Supreme Court any authority to decide the outcome of a presidential election. Yet that is precisely how GWB ended up with the prize.
And Al Gore and the people of the Fourth Estate rolled over and played dead. Those are the Americans who make KV and me despair of the human race.
As for the human race lasting longer than KV: probably, but how much longer? Bush and his people are trying to build and stockpile more nukes. “...And the cockroaches shall inherit the Earth.”
If we had a President who felt and thought like Kurt Vonnegut, we wouldn’t be suffering from GWB’s crap public policies.
Cheers right back atcha.
Posted by Ludwig on Aug 24, 2004 at 4:21 PM Ken is dead. He hasn’t posted in weeks. To his credit, and not my own, he maybe realized that this arguement got way too stupid to respond to way too long ago. Go ahead and cause wars and kill each other and talk nonsense, just don’t get my ass blown up. Thanks.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 24, 2004 at 5:31 PM The only thing I’ll ever try to blow up your ass, Ryan, is smoke—and that’s only when I can’t think of a good, logical basis for my position. LOL!
Posted by Ludwig on Aug 24, 2004 at 5:55 PM Bush took Florida by less than 600 votes in 2000. In the Miami metro area thousands of Black voters were excluded from the polls by police intimidation. My son lived in Miami then and personally observed the foiled attempts of hundreds of Black voters in several of the precincts in his area to approach the polling places. Others were prevented from voting through contrived “mix-ups” over registration lists, as well as because of the hundreds of notorious “butterfly” ballots which were confusing to say the least. The ensuing recount (partial) therefore was meaningless. Bush stole the 2000 election with the aid of his brother/governor. And Florida stands to repeat this process again, as there are yet many flaws in the system as it now stands. But that’s the way Jeb Bush wants it.
Dick
Posted by Dick on Aug 24, 2004 at 8:17 PM I read most of the comments including and regarding Ken and Ryan’s diatribes. I have to say I don’t agree with Ken on most points, but he was a lot more intelligent sounding than Ryan.
Ryan, you had such a load of crude, insulting postulations. All outcry and no real information. I’m ashamed to be on the same side as you.
Posted by BB on Aug 25, 2004 at 3:47 PM hEY vONNEGUT. hOW gOES IT? hAVEN’T hAD yOUR bREAKFAST oF cHAMPIONS fOR a wHILE. rEALLY hUNGRY’yOU uNDERSTAND. nAPALM fROM hARVARD? iS tHAT wHY yOUR sON wENT tHERE fOR hIS mEDICAL eDUCATION aFTER hE hAD a Nervous Breakdown?Veritas -Yes Indeed! Well,No I hAVEN’T sEEN mR. mOORE’S mOVIE bUT i Have Seen Alex Akita Jones’Movie-911 Road To Tyranny. It May Help Some Of Your Readers To Look And Associate Beyond The Dualistic Jingoism Of The Whig Party’s Dem/Rep World Tyranny- From The Land Of Eng-By Seeing It. But Beware,Your Life May Never Be The Same. Yes… ‘Only In Books’ Yes I aGREE. lIKE dAVID iCKES bOOKS 911 aLICE iN wONDERLAND nOTWITHSTANDING. pROMETHEAN rOCKEFELER lIES oN bOTH sIDES oF tHE fENCE;iS tHERE sOMEONE oUT tHERE wHO cAN gIVE dAVID ” a Fucking Drink”? On Those ‘African Americans…Disinfranchised’ Well It Was Mainly The Jewish Voters Around The Miami Area That Had A pROBLEM wITH rEMOVING ‘cHADS’ tHAT sEEMED tHE rEASON fOR tHE rECOUNT. mAYBE tHEY aRE sTILL eXHAUSTED fROM wHAT aDOLF aND cO. sUPPOSEDLY dID tO tHEM aND tHE rEASON tHERE aRE 300 jEWISH lOBBY gROUPS iN tHE uSA? bY tHE wAY 46000 dOUBLE vOTES bY sNOWBIRDS mAINLY fROM nEW yORK nY of wHICH 70% aRE dEMOCRATE. bY tHE wAY hOW mANY oF tHOSE wERE jEWS? hEY kURT cOULD tHIS bE tHE rEASON tHE aALRM bELLS oF tHE cONSTITUTION dIDN’T sOUND iN yOUR eARS? oUR pRESIDENT/aDOLPH bOTH cHRISTIAN? mALARCHY. oR mAYBE YOU bELIEVE kISSINGER ,pERLE aND wOLFOWITS jEWS. mY cLOSING tHOUGHT oN tHE mATTER :“fORTUNE iS wANT tO rESERVE a Harsher Fate On Those It Has Heaped Most Blessings”-Care To Talk About Jelousy?.............aLl We ArE sAyInG….....gRaB a PiEcE tAkE a ChAnCe
5
Posted by jack stihll on Aug 25, 2004 at 5:48 PM (Notice the librarian is still a crabby old biddy with her hair in a bun and her glasses on a chain. Even people who aim to praise librarians, like Michael Moore, stereotype and sneer at them at the same time, dismiss them after tossing off a bit of incredulous
praise. It isn’t really much of a sign of respect.)Well, Vonnegut’s very despairing, and rather juvenilely petulant (“they’re not doing it my way, I’m going to eat worms”—very seventies).
He was one of my early literary heroes, but lately ... one of us has outgrown the other.It’s odd, too, to take the Iraq war as *the* sign of the depravity of man, and not Rwanda or Sudan or Serbia, or even Kurdish Iraq. At least it’s a war (with all the real horror that entails, but still), not an annihilation. Horrors are not all equal, and though it’s typically American (even of Vonnegut)
to consider that if we’re involved it must be the most ... the worst ... the biggest ... or the best ... we aren’t even serious contenders for the most depraved. Most obnoxious, maybe, most conflicted, most self-hating and self-promoting. Noisiest, certainly.Not all who disagree with us are evil incarnate (well, you know, maybe Cheney signed a pact with the devil, but surely not all of them), and few who agree with us are on the side of the angels. It isn’t the end of the world if the other side wins, and it’s vain and childish of us to think otherwise. Vonnegut needs to
grow up, and so do we.By the way, Mark Twain indeed despaired during periods of terrible personal tragedy and guilt, but though he was never much of a fan of mankind (“When I get over on the other side, I shall use my influence to have the human race drowned again, and this time drowned good, no omissions, no Ark”), his despair was truly directed at life itself, or the way his turned out: There is no God, no universe, no human race, no earthly life, no heaven, no hell. It is all a dream—
a grotesque and foolish dream.”Einstein, though he called nationalism the “measles of mankind,” had considerable hope for man throughout his life, speaking of Gandhi’s
virtue as epitomizing, “the dignity of the simple human being, and thus at all times risen superior.”And no matter how stirring it feels to say so, I don’t really believe many peoples in the world are afraid of us. We’re the straw bad guy, but no one’s shaking in their boots thinking we’re coming to get them (pity, since I’d rather hoped that would be one benefit of this venture, that at least Khaddafy and Assad and Kim and al Saud would go all nervous and conciliatory). Remember, during the Cold War no one, especially us, thought twice about demonstrating against the CIA or criticizing them in public, no matter what the more paranoid among us chose to believe them capable of, but you notice nobody, especially the Soviets, took on the KGB
in the same way, and we know they were not only capable but culpable in the real world. The U.S. is easy to rail against, because as
powerful as we are, as rash as our first impulses can be, we do show a grumpy kind of restraint most of the time, which makes it
perfectly safe to lash out at us. We may be fiercely resented and detested but we aren’t honestly feared. Our erstwhile allies are
more nervous about us than our enemies, possibly with good reason as our close ties make their well-being more susceptible to our humors and rumblings.
Posted by Pat McClure on Aug 25, 2004 at 7:09 PM BB - Insults are better given face to face. Since you can’t do that, shut the fuck up. Danke.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 25, 2004 at 7:36 PM Who the hell in recent memory started refering to “straw” and “straw men” all the time? I see two idiots who obviously read the same thing or saw the same show. Knock it off, it’s annoying.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 25, 2004 at 7:42 PM Main Entry: straw man
Function: noun
1 : a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confutedWebster’s knows what it means even if you don’t.
It’s a very old term, even if you haven’t heard it before.
Posted by Pat McClure on Aug 25, 2004 at 7:57 PM I was amazed at the response to Vonnegut’s article but question how closely it was read. He never praises Fahrenheit 9/11, he just refers to its origin, a book about book banning and restrictions on freedom of speech. He praises librarians who have been twarting investigations into peoples’ reading habits, but he didn’t mention that Moore’s book Stupid White Men would never have been released if it weren’t for a brave librarian, Anne Sparanase, who heard that the publisher, owned by Rupert Murdock, was threatening to “pulp” it if Moore didn’t re-write nearly 50%. She contacted other librarians via the internet and thery raised such a furor that the books were shipped and Moore went on to produce his movie and another book, Dude, Where’s My Country?
And the connection between Bush and Hitler goes beyond the two men. The connection is the re emergence of Facism the control of the people via military and economic taking control and using religion just to tweek things their way.
Posted by marie schurr on Aug 25, 2004 at 9:28 PM RYAN YOU FUCKING DUMBASS! YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT “STRAW MAN” MEANS, WHY DON’T YOU LOOK IT UP YOU INSUFFERABLE IGNORANT PRICK! DO THE WORLD SOME GOOD AND SHUT UP LONG ENOUGH TO LEARN SOMETHING!
Learn the other fallacies of logic while you’re at it. Then go find something else to learn.He can be taught, ladies and gentlemen.
I’m sick of waking up every morning to this filth in my mailbox. It’s like starting the day by sticking my head into a public toilet to read what the local scumbags have scrawled on the wall. Good thing this thread is plain text only. Screw the internet. TO THE LIBRARY!
Posted by I'M OFF THIS NAZI THREAD!!! on Aug 26, 2004 at 1:03 AM I never said it wasn’t a real term, nor did I say that I didn’t know what it means. I just said that it sounds stupid, which it does. By the way, sorry you wake up to messages everyday, maybe get a life, check it at your leisure instead of having email notifications sent to you. Loser.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 26, 2004 at 1:38 AM Dear Kurt Vonnegut—
Thank you for your little article. I became aware of your writings in the 50’s as an adolescent, and have continued to admire and appreciate them. You have a knack for pointing out the important things in life,
Lately, though, I’ve begun to wonder if you’re not a little too optimistic. Especially today after noting the tenor of the readers’ comments. Oh well, as the philosopher said, every people, every nation gets the government, the leaders, they deserve. So it goes.
jvt
Posted by jvt on Aug 26, 2004 at 12:41 PM jack stihll: what the Nazis “supposedly” did to the Jews? Eisenhower deliberately had his photo and film corps document it so it couldn’t be denied! Learn History!
Pat McClure: Nobody was protesting the CIA until people began finding out what they were doing in Southeast Asia and South America, fighting secret wars, backing assassinations and coups against legitimately elected leaders, and installing American puppets to lead soverign nations. And I doubt Vonnegut designed, chose or approved of the stereotypical graphic of the old biddy librarian.
Posted by Ludwig on Aug 26, 2004 at 1:02 PM Yes, but nobody was *afraid* to protest against the CIA, that was my point—the little thrill we got from being so naughty came with the knowledge we were really pretty safe doing it even while we were trying to scare each other with bogeyman secret agency stories.
That’s true, it wasn’t Vonnegut’s cartoon, but it is the common notion of the laughably admirable-in-a-completely-inconsequential-and-unenviable-way librarian. And Moore has been known to snicker about them even *while* he’s telling the story of how they saved his book.
Posted by Pat McClure on Aug 26, 2004 at 8:57 PM Kurt, it’s good to know that someone has the guts and willingness to tell it like it is.
Posted by Mary on Aug 26, 2004 at 10:29 PM I worked at a library for 6 years. Half of them were male, most of them were young, none of them fit the stereotype—and all of them were secure enough in their personal identities not to let the stereoptype unduly annoy them. (Although I doubt any of them will like that cartoon.)
Richard M. Nixon, as Chief Executive, didn’t need to keep a tight rein on J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the FBI when Nixon first became President. But Nixon was the puppet master for Hoove3r’s immediate successors, Acting Director L. Patrick Gray (1972–1973), Acting Director William D. Ruckelshaus (1973) and Director Clarence M. Kelley (1973–1978), who outlasted Nixon in office. And Nixon was a vengeful, paranoid bastard who wouldn’t hestitate to stoop to use the full power (legal or illegal) of the FBI to make life hell for anyone Tricky Dick considered to be “UnAmerican” (i.e., anti-Nixon or anti-Nixon’s CIA.)
Posted by Ludwig on Aug 27, 2004 at 4:02 AM Bush is no more a Christian than der fuhrer was. Hitler was a fanatical occultist who performed bizarre rituals in Castles with the highest ranking members of the Nazi party. Hitler’s worshippers at the rituals would drink his blood and Hitler would go into frenetic chanelling sessions.
As for Bush’s faith, the man is clearly a delusional, obsessive, paranoid warmonger. Reports from credible sources have stated Bush is being doped up on anti-psychotics.
Posted by Connie on Aug 27, 2004 at 8:51 AM “This article is a merely a silly diatribe. I am very disappointed with the lack of anything that i can sink my cognitive teeth in.”
Perhaps you should floss more?
“The election in Florda rigged? By virtually all recouning methods, Bush won. Time to get over the close call and move on!”
There was no recount. On December 12, 2002 the Supreme Court directed Florida to accept the count as-is and not recount to determine the intent of voters whose ballots had been miscounted or spoiled.
There was no recount. The Supreme Court said that because deadlines hadn’t been met, the initial raw count as reported by Fox news and a company operated by a Bush family member, Bush won.
This was the mother of all TKOs.
They didn’t even have the class to let Bush and Gore flip a coin. Heads I win, tails you lose, Al.
“The US feared and hated as the Nazis? Did the Nazis remove brutal dictators and spend billons of marks rebuilding the terrorized country?”
For what it’s worth, the Nazis did. They removed Dollfuss of Austria, a tinpot authoritarian, a few years prior to their Anschluss or forced reunification with Austria. They made quite an effort to remove Stalin and they certainly planned to spend billions of marks in rebuilding Russia as *lebensraum* for Germans and their Slavic servants. They felt that the dominated Slavs would be much happier under their system.
“The US dehumanizing millons of people? Where? If this is aimed at Iraq, it misses the mark by a lightyear!”You don’t say. I’d say it is very dehumanizing after ten+ years of sanctions to be plunged into a war. To this date, the Iraqis have insufficient food, are without power, water or police services in vast areas, and are being on this basis dehumanized.
“Linking Bush to Hitler via Christianity? Pure sleaze.”
More and more we must never use the N word, and call the Bush familigia (which did business with the Third Reich during the war) what it is.
“All the resources (money) has been taken by “psychopathic personalities”?”
You got it, buddy.
“Is this really meant to be a serious article?”
What would you wish us to believe? 43M without health insurance, 36M in poverty, people dying every day in Iraq, yet everything is O. K.?
“(BTW - i am a fan of the wonderful fiction written by KV. Welcome to the Monkey House was terrific. Perhaps he should stick to what he knows best, fiction) “
Oh I am very certain that you are a very hip dude who reads a lot of hip fiction and is quite entertained by these tales of how the hip do so confront, the square.
The problem is that people dying every day is not fiction.
Would you please stop reading fiction, and buy, rent or swipe Fahrenheit 9.11?
Please watch the grief of the Iraqi woman followed by the vacuity of Britney Spears.
Then watch it again.
We call this reality, or an image of same. It consists of a sequence of events, some of which are unbearably painful, whether psychologically, or physically.
Americans numb themselves to this pain as Britney is numbed. They can’t “deal” because the pain they encountered is encountered primarily in books as literally someone else’s.
I say the horror is unfolding in real time and it is the result of Bush’s choice to be a sort of monstrous baby-sitter for four years doing the business of the grown ups while the sheep look up and are not fed.
Posted by Edward G. Nilges on Aug 27, 2004 at 10:44 AM Speaking of occultists, why are the stars on the new Republican Elephant logo upside down (pointing downward instead of upward, like those on the American flag) a la Satanist “pentagrams?”
Posted by Ludwig on Aug 27, 2004 at 12:21 PM Connie, where did you get the information about Bush being on anti-psychotics? Any idea what particular anti-psychotic? That’s news to me…
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 27, 2004 at 5:12 PM Arguments between ideologues produce little but heat and overtaxed rhetoric. Persuation is impossible when it meets with intractability.
In all of these exchanges reality or truth is the victim and ego is the motivator.
The truth is that Bush is a spoiled “preppy” with all the depth of a befuddled wombat and an IQ near to room temperature.
The truth is also that Kerry is a rich kid who did a splendid job of “orchestrating” his career into politics; is unlikely to “represent” those of us whose votes he so ardently pursues. It is also true that he posesses ten times the intellect of Bush.
Yet another truth is that neither party is free of the influence of MONEY.
From where I sit it looks like De Toqueville had us figured out accurately when he observed that “I know of no other country where the love of money has taken a stronger hold on the affections of men” Maybe we’re just not fit for self-governance.
Posted by tom c. on Aug 27, 2004 at 7:39 PM I love you, Mr. Vonnegut. So much in fact, that I will refrain from commenting on others who have posted, and reflect solely on the article written.
Saddest to me, is that this piece stands out so much in the mind. Bill Maher, Kurt Vonnegut, Michael Moore and Andre 3000 from Outkast are on a very short list of “Highly Visible Americans for Reasonable Government.”
The comparison drawn between the fear and loathing our new zero-tolerance global ‘policing’ causes—remember 9/11/2001, our nation did not weep alone—to the hatred inspired by former bogey men the Nazis, was refreshing.
Of late, it seems that those Americans who question a war based on bad, false and planted information are compared to our greatest nightmares of the past: communists, terrorists, fools… the French.
I just hope those few brave voices who shout against the wind help remind those would-be “Good-doers” that freedom fighters don’t actually fight freedom, they fight for it.
Thank you, Librarians, the world over
Posted by Melissa on Aug 27, 2004 at 9:44 PM Further thoughts on librarians…we assume that libraries are eternal yet they may pass away under the sustained assault of the forces behind Bush even as the library at Alexandria was burned down.
The Serbs, who in 1992 fancied themselves a “bulwark” against “Moslem terrorism” but who in fact were cheap thugs and *genocidaires*, burned Sarajevo’s library.
On entering Baghdad in 2003, the Americans did not burn down the library. Instead they protected the Oil Ministry while the library burned down.
I was in the library at Durham NC in 2001 when the police came in. An old man was it appears using the computers at the library to complain to the city about his treatment over an issue.
The police told him that he had to desist because his letters were “threatening”.
I do not know the contents of the letters but my own experience is that modern law can read threats into almost any but the most innocuous texts.
In Chicago in recent years, following a modus operandi wherein departments and institutions created in response to public pressure are transformed by their managers into Orwellian reversals, Mary Dempsey has downsized and moronized the library system.
Glamorous new branches are created, without enough books but with Internet workstations wherein patrons are limited to 15 or 30 minutes and have to queue. When they get their shot they check out…Britney Spears.
Employees including a personal friend who use the library to announce progressive events are persecuted and hounded despite the fact that Chicagoans LIKE progressive and left-wing events of all sorts. They even thronged my talk in 1999 at the College of Complexes, “Was Theodore Adorno a Schnook or a Good Guy?” (Answer: both).
As to stereotypes. I have no problem with librarians being fearsome old biddie schoolmarm types. Fearsome old biddie schoolmarms civilised the West; it is said that the American west was civilised by “women and barbed wire”.
The Bush administration is a heavily armed bad crazy loco gringo white man in a dusty cantina seeking el Paredon while us citizens slide over the sill: hell, I ain’t safe in China should China invade Taiwan and old George sez like his Daddy, this shall not stand.
A man can’t stand against a sufficiently loco white man unless his own heart is pure like Gary Cooper in High Noon; otherwise, the male system (like that of charge and countercharge between Kerry and Bush, self-replicates until we’re all sick with Fear and Loathing.. But a fearsome old biddy with nothing left to lose (like Joan of Arc or Corazon Aqino) has a fighting chance.
Posted by Edward G. Nilges on Aug 28, 2004 at 10:32 AM Why does everyone use the term “white man” like it’s the most horrible thing on earth? Seriously, enough of the self loathing. I’m by no means a racist at all, and I have no problem being a “white man”. I may be the whitest guy you know, but what’s wrong with that? I like being white, so *pbbbbbbt*!
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 28, 2004 at 2:21 PM I’m white as Wonder bread, and realize, and am thankful, that it has worked to my advantage in This Man’s Amerika.
Posted by LUDWIG on Aug 28, 2004 at 2:50 PM Enough recountings of misreadings of Palast (Moore), Unger, et al. This is serious. When you become dependent on completely biased and mediated information, you invariably channel that already inadequate data through yourself and transform it yet again. Playing with and discussing the 2000 election results is a prime example. The margins being so small, and the average person’s understanding of quantitative analysis make this discussion dangerous and unrewarding for most. University of Chicago (Vonnegut’s alma mater) has published some terrific numbers, as has the Harvard Civil Rights-Civil Liberties Law Review. But honestly: the numbers are available for your own scrutiny, and unless you’re passionate and capable enough to plod through the enormous data sets, you should all do your best to remain skeptical.
Posted by jason on Aug 28, 2004 at 6:10 PM Hey, Jason,
As Dan Acroyd used to say on Saturday Night Live’s “Point/Counterpoint,” “Jane, you ignorant slut!” I did NOT “misread” Greg Palast’s “The Best Democracy Money Can Buy,” I READ it. Did YOU? The point of its Chapter one is that the margin was small because eligible voters were DISENFRANCHISED—the numbers that are there are BOGUS! Forgive my shouting, but when I feel passionate about something, I scream with passion.
P.s.: Speaking of screaming with passion: Hi, Kelley!
Posted by LUDWIG on Aug 28, 2004 at 7:23 PM As the son of a World War II KIA paratrooper it is almost unbelievable to me that such a critical fork in the road of our nation has come to pass in my 61 year lifetime. My father and hundreds of thousands of his comrades died fighting the facists and now our own country is nearing the point where Benito and Adolf were stopped. Two old sayings quickly spring to mind, “History repeats itself” and “How soon we forget.” Thank you Kurt Vonnegut for reminding me that threads of our precious democracy still exist.
Posted by Phil Henderson on Aug 29, 2004 at 2:49 AM To the snipers of the column.
First these Bush is Hitler statements/thoughts must be stopped. Just because a paragraph contains two names doesn’t equal Bush = Hitler. In the line before, he said that “Napalm came from Harvard. Veritas!” Then he said that Bush is a Christian, so was Hitler. That is not saying Bush = Hitler!
That is just saying that we can’t just glorify people/places on the image or relationships of themselves to reputation or institutions. In other words, napalm, a vicious weapon, came from an institution as hallowed as Harvard, and Bush’s faith shouldn’t be used as a measuring stick because Hitler had the same faith.
KV stated that the US is feared/hated as much as Hitler was all over the world. Strong and overreaching? Maybe. But that does not undermine the fact that polls show people around the world think the US is the most dangerous to world peace. To turn that around and say “KV said Bush = Hitler” is a statement rooted in misunderstanding or rhetoric.
“Liberating” a country is what every invading power says it’s doing to another country. That was USSR’s statement for invading Afghanistan. THat was Hitler’s claim for invading Czechoslovakia. That is the US’s claim after invading and finding _no weapons of mass destruction_. (Was Powell’s main point at the UN that Saddam is a horrible person. No. His message, via a bunch of photos from high in the air, was that we were under attack.)
And the fact that the US helped Saddam stay in power, via some of the very same people in the BUSH administration (Rumsfeld was the actual envoy to open relations to Saddam, fully knowing his brutal ways. ) takes out some of the morality in their claim that they are the liberators of Iraq. How much credibility would I have if I supplied a thug with means to terrorize your house, and then after the thug kills a person and steals some money, I get rid of the thug? I am not your savior that’s for sure.
As for the US dehumanized people over the world,we can look to Latin America and all of their dictators that the US help support or install. No one mentions the School of the Americas who graduated some of the most brutal dictators of Latin America, like Noriega, and leaders of death squads in El Salvador. Or the fact that William Walker, an American businessman went down to Nicaragua and became the dictator and set Nicaragua back for many years! Then the US supports Somoza, another brutal dictator. The lists goes on and on.
The psychopathic personalities line is a term from a previous KV column in which he states that only a psychopathic personality is a real clinical condition in which people believe that they have no obligation to live with a conscience and act without the effect on other people to stop them. He then states that only a PP would want to run for president because that characteristic is required for the job. I think that people like Ken Lay is a PP and anyone who makes crushing tax cuts to benefit people as rich as Ken Lay while gutting social programs can be seen as a PP. My opinion only of course.
That said, I do not think the column is KV’s best, but I do not think what he wrote was false as a whole.
Posted by MC on Aug 29, 2004 at 3:01 PM The respected Mister Vonnegut has always pointed out the injustices of the world, although perhaps usually in a more light-hearted way. I understand his discouragement, as probably all Vonnegut lovers would. It is the humanity of people such as him that keep any hope alive for all humanity. God bless you, Mister Vonnegut.
Posted by Makesha on Aug 29, 2004 at 4:05 PM The people who keep using lines like “God bless you Mr. Vonnegut” and “so it goes” are kind of like the people who shout that “YEYA!” line at Chapelle on the street. Ya have to come up with your own sayings. =P
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 29, 2004 at 5:03 PM Ryan is right about one thing, at least. What are we, DITTOHEADS?
Posted by Ludwig on Aug 29, 2004 at 5:13 PM since I didn’t read what everyone else wrote and just responded to Mr. Vonnegut’s piece directly, I didn’t realize I was being such a terribly redundant ditto head. I was just making a reference to God Bless you, mr. Rosewater. And I meant every word. Maybe you should stick to discussing Mr. Vonnegut’s piece, and get over picking on those who have something to say. I’m sure you guys must’ve already put in more than your two cents. I’ve now said all I have to say to those of your ilk. and so it goes….
Posted by Makesha on Aug 29, 2004 at 5:44 PM Maybe we should ALL stop telling each other what we SHOULD and SHOULDN’T do and take Makesha’s advice—DAMN! I can’t even follow my own advice…. LOL!
Posted by Ludwig on Aug 30, 2004 at 2:42 AM Yes, I would vote for Saddam over Bush if Saddam could overcome his Arnold Shitsnegro foreign-ness to run, because I would vote for anyone, including a psychotic child-killing serial maniac instead of a moronic Bush puppet.
I don’t KNOW who is running my country now; all I know is that it isn’t the moron who didn’t even know that we had inspectors in Iraq who were looking for wmds and not finding them.
There are but two verities today to which I can swear: (1) its about oil, and (2) Bush is a moron.
Oh, by the way, the bickering between Ken and Ryan is juvenile and typical; Ken is a political operative who won’t ever tell the truth about anything at all, and Ryan is an emotional cripple who doesn’t KNOW the truth about anything at all.
Believe me, I won’t respond to either of them, for I have no time for irrelevant nonsense.
And by the way again, if you ignore Vonnegut, then you are probably afraid of the truth more than you are afraid of pain or dying.
Posted by Sam Snedegar on Aug 30, 2004 at 9:15 AM This discussion is ridiculous.
Mr. Vonnegut, I’m a public library branch manager, and you do not speak for me, my community, or what happens at our public library.
Iraq was not invaded; it was liberated. Liberation of the oppressed has always been a staple of American policy.
Having been to Iraq and knowing many people who are there right now, I can say - from firsthand knowledge and not spoonfed, doctored information - that Iraq’s people are infinitely better off now than they were before the war. Things aren’t perfect, but in most of Iraq, life is returning to a reasonable level of normalcy. Businesses that were closed un Saddam are re-opening; kids are going back to school; people who were afraid are no longer.
And, incidentally, Iraq is beginning to re-open the public libraries that were closed under Hussein’s rule.
Of course, this is America, and our media gives us what sells. Naturally they choose to focus primarily on one neighborhood of one city, where a small minority continues to cause violence. But it is a small minority. No one wants to see pictures of a child going to a public library for the first time in his life; death sells, knowledge doesn’t.
I applaud the students and citizens of America who have been intelligent enough to see through the propagandists that have sought to manipulate the facts to paint a picture far worse than the reality that I have experienced and know to be true.
I applaud those who see the sick and twisted portrayal of our President as a Nazi for what it is: the angry loathing of a few ignorant individuals.
As for being hated and feared by most of the world, what are we really talking about? We’re not feared or hated by any of the new democracies in the former Soviet Union; they’re all staunch allies. Nor are we feared by Britain, Australia, Spain, or any of the free world outside of France - and France hates and fears everyone who isn’t France.
We’re hated and feared by North Korea, sure. By Syria, definitely. Iran is nervous; it’s about to be sandwiched between two democratic states and the pressure for change and peaceful reform is going to grow every year. Libya was so nervous it gave up its nuclear weapons program without a fight.
I’ve been to some of these places. They’re awful. And I’d much rather be hated by them than loved, and would prefer even more to be feared by them than hated.
In his great narrative history of western civlization, From Dawn to Decadence, the historian Jacques Barzun chose as a title for a chapter near the end of the book, a title that resonates with this argument. The title: Embracing the Absurd.
This absurdist debate disgusts me. Those who selectively ignore information are every bit as ignorant as those who never look at any. It is absurd to call the Iraq war an invasion and conquest; it is absurd to call George W. Bush a Nazi; and that this debate is happening at all is symptomatic of the decay of our intellectual standards. The angry rhetoric in articles like this should be thrown out by academia, not for its message but because it is completely unubstantiated; it has all the thought and intellectual weight of a National Enquirer article, and that’s where it belongs if anywhere at all.
Instead, we embrace the absurd: we publish it for all to see.
Absurd.
Mr. Vonnegut, please do not speak for me. I disagree with you; and incidentally, Ray Bradbury was incensed when he learned the title to Michael Moore’s film. It seems Mr. Bradbury did not want to be associated with a known propagandist.
I guess some of your contemporaries still have a modicum of class. . .
Posted by Rob on Aug 30, 2004 at 1:21 PM Hey Rob, I’ll make sure never to take out a book you are responsible for. If you think I’m being serious, then you don’t get it. There’s no arguing with somene like you Rob, you believe we’re the ones tricked by propaghanda, and we believe the same about you. Shouting matches are pointless unless you’re into unnecessary stress. As for my being an emotional cripple Sam I am, how on earth do yo know that? “Believe me, I won’t respond to either of them, for I have no time for irrelevant nonsense.” Way to talk like a 19th century aristocrat, just to use a criticism used by Vonnegut.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 30, 2004 at 2:25 PM By the way Rob, if you want class go to the opera. If you’re expecting a whole lot of class from politics and people who hold very strong beliefs, you’re kidding yourself.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 30, 2004 at 2:28 PM Lastly, Vonnegut never attempted to speak for librarians, he just wished to thank them, think before you write.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Aug 30, 2004 at 2:36 PM “This discussion is ridiculous”.
Most political discussions are ridiculous, because it attracts partisans and zealots and bloated patriots, and the voice of liberty and reason invariably gets shouted down.
“Mr. Vonnegut, I’m a public library branch manager, and you do not speak for me, my community, or what happens at our public library”.
So you and your community support the Feds in there attempt to censor and thwart free speech and information sharing and to invade the privacy of citizens? Gee, y’all seem like such nice folks.
“Iraq was not invaded; it was liberated. Liberation of the oppressed has always been a staple of American policy”.
Now THIS explains the source of your lunacy. Of the several dozen countries the US has invaded/occupied/intervened since WWII, how many are free or better off? Where is the evidence that Washington’s stated noble intentions are consistent with facts on the ground?
“Having been to Iraq and knowing many people who are there right now, I can say - from firsthand knowledge and not spoonfed, doctored information - that Iraq’s people are infinitely better off now than they were before the war”.
Infinitely? Don’t gesticulate. Iraq is radioactive from DU ordinance. Much propaganda is being circulated from high places that deny the danger of DU. Only true believers believe their “good news”. Iraq has been oppressed by Washington since at least the 60s. Saddam simply lost his usefulness to the US elite. It is all a sham from top to bottom. For a librarian, you seem to have read very little into these matters.
“Of course, this is America, and our media gives us what sells. Naturally they choose to focus primarily on one neighborhood of one city, where a small minority continues to cause violence”.
Your delusion seems infinite. American media is the scorn and laughing stock of much of the world. It consistently and faithfully reports and supports nothing but government propaganda. Dissent is either downright censored, or, when impossible to shove completely under the carpet, ridiculed or presented as the views of “marginal radicals”. The Bush junta were given carte blanche in the lead up to Gulf II, and the 2000 election which found GW assigned Presidency by the Supreme Court (illegal and unconstitutional, in case you aren’t aware!) illicited no response, commentary, or challenge of any kind from America’s mainstream media.
“I applaud the students and citizens of America who have been intelligent enough to see through the propagandists that have sought to manipulate the facts to paint a picture far worse than the reality that I have experienced and know to be true.”
Present your evidence, please. Also, present your evidence to show that Washington is sincerely working for a democratic Iraq.
“I applaud those who see the sick and twisted portrayal of our President as a Nazi for what it is: the angry loathing of a few ignorant individuals”.
First of all, Kurt merely pointed out a fact: Hitler was a self-described Christian, so is Bush. To reasonable minds who have been paying attention, the purpose behind Kurt’s assertion is to remind that just because your President says he’s Chistian, does not and should not give you reason to trust him. It is not intended to denounce Chistianity, but just to show that claims to Christianity are IRRELEVANT when assessing the moral and ethical stature of your leaders.
That said, if you calm down and adopt a non-partisan, objective, scientific mind, you will see for yourself that their are indeed some very disturbing similarities betweem the Bush junta/PNAC boys and Nazism. Superiority-complexes, schemes for world domination, determination towards war rather than peace, and increasingly fascistic tendencies. These are serious similarities, and if you despise Nazism so much (as you should!), and if you are a true patriot (as opposed to a blinkered patriot) you will passionately oppose any Nazi tendencies (ANY) that develop in your own government.
Note: I did not say Bush is a Nazi.
Note: Vonnegut did not say Bush is a Nazi.
What I AM saying, and Vonnegut, and many other astute observers the world over, is that there are disturbing SIMILARITIES. This should raise alarm bells in any person with a shred of a conscience.
“As for being hated and feared by most of the world, what are we really talking about? We’re not feared or hated by any of the new democracies in the former Soviet Union; they’re all staunch allies. Nor are we feared by Britain, Australia, Spain, or any of the free world outside of France - and France hates and fears everyone who isn’t France.”I hate to destroy your fantasy bubble. Much of the Western world are deeply opposed, and rightly terrified, of the increasingly beligerent and violent nature of American Empire. I am talking, of course, of civilian attitudes. The governments of the West are far more restrained in their criticism than their populations, and indeed, most Western governments are too concerned with the status quo, too concerned about losing favours with Washington, to rock the boat to much. On the street, however, citizens the world over are terrified and angered and disgusted by the elite Western response towards the inequity that they themselves largely created and actively promoted.
“I’ve been to some of these places (Iran, Libya, etc.). They’re awful. And I’d much rather be hated by them than loved, and would prefer even more to be feared by them than hated.”
You are talking about the people of these countries? You want them to hate you? You prefer they fear you? Have you ever heard of the terms “victim” and “pawn”? Do you think people in places that live under terrible conditions should be pitied and helped, or condemned and bombed?
“In his great narrative history of western civlization, From Dawn to Decadence, the historian Jacques Barzun chose as a title for a chapter near the end of the book, a title that resonates with this argument. The title: Embracing the Absurd.”
The media is embracing the absurd. Blinkered patriots are embracing the absurd. War = peace is an absurdity. The doctrine of supreme power and preemption is an absurdity. Promoting state secrecy is an absurdity, in war or in peace.
“This absurdist debate disgusts me. Those who selectively ignore information are every bit as ignorant as those who never look at any. It is absurd to call the Iraq war an invasion and conquest; it is absurd to call George W. Bush a Nazi; and that this debate is happening at all is symptomatic of the decay of our intellectual standards. The angry rhetoric in articles like this should be thrown out by academia, not for its message but because it is completely unubstantiated; it has all the thought and intellectual weight of a National Enquirer article, and that’s where it belongs if anywhere at all.”
The evidence of the criminality of the Bush gang is damning. You offer no evidence to support your view. Shout “absurd!”, “absurd!” all you want, but the word “absurd” does not a piece of evidence make. Incidentally, the media, whom I know you adore so much, and the ruling elite, use the same tactics. “To suggest the war on Iraq is about oil is disgusting and absurd” ... “baseless” .... “dangerous lie” ... “lunatic conpiracy theory” ... etc.
I leave you with this: the most important definition of democracy is a system of power that is held accountable to the citizenry. The definition of a democrat is a citizen who exercises his democratic right to hold power accountable.In otherwords, blinkered patriots do NOT promote the vitality and health of a democracy.
Blinkered patriots actually promote totalitarianism.
NOTE: I took several of your points and attacked the logic of your assertions. This is elementary debating protocol. If you want to argue facts and complexities of the current geo-political world, you will have to at least develop elementary debating skills, and arm yourself with facts and records to back up your position. Please do not shout me or anyone down with “IGNORANT!”, “ABSURD”, etc. It may very well be that I AM ignorant or absurd. Maybe everyone on this discussion board is ignoran and absurd. That is quite a charge, however, and if you want my respect, if you want to have ANY effect on my thinking, you will have to prove these charges of “absurdity” with a little more logic and intelligence.
Go back to the library.
(Man oh man, I would LOVE to see what’s on YOUR reading list!)
turtleman
Posted by turtleman on Aug 30, 2004 at 3:51 PM Something tells me that Rob fella is just making everything up… A librarian who likes censorship?... Been to the places (plural, mind you) like the Middle East and HATED them? Why did you keep going? Why did you hate them? Ever heard of “facts” or “evidence”?... Much rather be hated by someone than loved?... I could go on and on. BTW, I could claim I’m a librarian, too, and it would take me about 5 minutes to come up with the drivel you slapped together.
Posted by Mitro Pietro on Aug 30, 2004 at 5:15 PM Ken needs to wake up from being “brainwashed” like so many other Americans. He should go backpacking through Europe and see what they really think of Americans there, and with good valid points. Bush, really should get a grip (have you ever heard him talk?!) because if the American people and (I do have faith in them) smarten up, he’s not going to know what hit him!!!
Posted by Andria on Aug 30, 2004 at 6:37 PM My, my, the bile! The wrath!
I’m quite surprised. I wasn’t responding to you, Mr. Turtleman. I was responding to the author; I hadn’t even read any of your commentary. I still haven’t and don’t plan to.
Censorship? This is alarmist literature. I am a librarian, and I don’t like the idea of censorship; hate it, in fact. But the Federal government has not imposed any on me. I am not, never have been, and probably never will be directed to make a list of all the little people who are reading this or that. Even if I was directed to do that, I would not be able; the data storage requirements would be prohibitively high. My library - like all Georgia libraries - does not and has not the capability to keep a record of who has checked out what, under the Bush administration or any other administration. I’m only familiar with what is done in two states of America - Georgia and South Carolina - but in both I know it is impossible to furnish this type of data. Once the book is checked back in - as long as a fine is not due - there is simply no record.
But I suppose the suggestion of such a thing probably winds people up into a big tight knot. There are people out there who want to keep us all that way: wound up and thinking with our emotions, not our heads.
I don’t care about your thinking, nor do I wish to affect it. I’m not going to engage in debate with you; you are not relevant. You esteem yourself very highly when you say such things as “if you want to affect my thinking. . . ” Perhaps a little too highly.
But you know, before I depart from this cozy little room (never to return), I will drop a few nifty ideas to help incubate your distaste for my opinions further - after all, the bile pool can always get bigger.
1. I visited the Middle East on numerous occasions between 1995 and 2003, when I was an officer in the US Army, Special Operations Command. I am now a disabled veteran and public librarian. I speak Arabic and Persian. I do not hate these people and never said that I did; but I also do not labor under the delusion that there are many people throughout that region who do not hate America. Linking that hatred to Bush or any other single President is wrong-headed and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the nature of the cultures involved.
2. Having studied Fascism at the graduate level, I cannot accept the idea of our current government as fascist, or even moving in a fascist direction. I highly recommend the book “History of European Fascism” by Payne. In it the author sythesizes an excellent definition of fascism based on its models in history. Serious scholars are not very fast to use the word; it is a sticky matter, a word that is difficult to precisely pin down because the true fascist governments of history have varied wildly one from another, have not lasted very long, and were often born and lived out their lives in extremes. No one knows what they would mature into over time because they never seem to last long enough; they are flames that burn very hot and very fast, and then go out.
It is far more common for individuals with little serious study of fascism to use the word as a blanket descriptor for any system that imposes or uses a power that they disagree with. The US currently does not fit - even in with the wildest of stretching I can imagine - the qualifiers, negations, or other basic descriptors of a fascist system that have been proposed by any of the leading scholars on the subject. Payne’s definition is probably the most accepted. Go read!
In that respect, it is absurd to call Bush a fascist. He clearly does not meet the criteria of fascism. Absurd! Go read Payne.
Anyway, you have a cute way of looking at things, and I hope it works out for you! I’m sorry we had to talk to each other; I guess you misunderstood my posting, which was about the passage written by Mr. Vonnegut, and did not pertain to you. I’m sorry you misunderstood.
Believe me, I won’t trouble you again! ;)
De Oppresso Liber,
Rob the Librarian
(and I don’t mean mug him)
Posted by rob on Aug 30, 2004 at 6:54 PM Rob,
I worked with librarians of all stripes for six years, and you sure don’t sound like any librarian I know.
We liberated France, we liberated Germany, we liberated Japan. What is going on now in Iraq may be the fruit of a totally misguided ATTEMPT at “liberation,” but it shur ez shit ain’t any resemblance of what liberation really is.
Obviously, you are NOT the “Madame Librarian” whom Mr. Vonnegut and I so admire and love.
I love you anyway, andx rather pity you.
Posted by Ludwig on Aug 30, 2004 at 7:36 PM Rob says to turtleman, “I hadn’t even read any of your commentary. I still haven’t and don’t plan to,” and then proceeds to RESPOND to it. Rob is, quite literally, unbelievable. Before I read any more postings, I shall see whether they are from this self-styled “librarian,” and, if they are, ignore them altogether. I suggest the rest of you follow my lead so as not to clutter up the thread with pointless attempts to refute Rob’s propaganda.
Posted by Ludwig on Aug 30, 2004 at 7:44 PM Teriaki,
If you’re still with us, why not back up your idiotic invective with some subjective FACTS?
Posted by Ludwig on Aug 30, 2004 at 7:58 PM Rob has also won a Nobel Prize in literature. He is one of the few who been to both the North and South Poles. He ivented television. He was the last cut for the US Men’s Olympic Gymnastics team in Athens. I think we should listen to Rob.
Posted by Mitro Pietro on Aug 30, 2004 at 8:40 PM Thanx KV for espousing again the frustration of what most civilized humanists believe - it is people like u my friend that give our social conscience a voice - that can remind us of our face and hands - that can steady the sway and temper the fears - a voice that is heard and serves as a beacon to gather like minds together - a voice to promote peace through change - will your books Mr. Vgt be on the watch list in these times?
“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
-Ben Franklin, 1759-Joe outlines well what liberation looks like in Iraq take a good close look at what the robber barons bring disguised as freedom in our name
http://joe.welinske.com/jwstuff.htm
Posted by Robert on Aug 30, 2004 at 11:57 PM Dear KV, and all fellow forum members.
I ve seen Michael Moore’s movie. I ve liked though I consider that as he does in his books, (If I shall I call them so, he dareq to summarise the Bosnian war or the Northern Conflict in just half a page, STUPID), he just shows one part of the story, in other words, he manipulates people as much as pro war partisan try do with their opponents.
I am outraged because such movies are mainly just welcomed here in Europe by left wing audiences who dislike, or in some cases hate American policies, wether these are lead by democrats or republicans. It is not a matter of going into a moral war or not. OK, no weapons of mass destruction have been founded so far.
No wars can be defined as moral…I know, BUT, what about supporting immoral dictatorships all along the African continent. What about the french foreign policy towards Africa. What about the FRANCOPHONIE or hidden way of keeping having a dominant influence in this region.
Next US presidential elections will probably have a major impact in the world. But PLEASE do not consider the only devil on the earth is your president. Keep being critical but also with other countries hipocrital prolicies. Stability in the world, seems to be fundamental, but not all stabil gouvernments are sinonimous of development, equality and respect of human rights.
Please KV, don’ t be as simplistic as Michael Moore, enlight your readers through your articles, don’t make them ‘M.Moore’ blind followers.
Jorg
Posted by jorg on Aug 31, 2004 at 12:59 PM Dear jorg,
Don’t worryt. Contrary to what some posters on this thread may lead you to believe, true intellectual debate is still alive and well in the USA.
Posted by Ludwig on Aug 31, 2004 at 11:51 PM As much potential as the new regulations have for harm to civil liberties, the fact is that libraries have *not* been inundated with requests to turn over records to the FBI since they went into effect—there is a rumor of one case somewhere, but the lack of detail makes it suspect. Many libraries have procedures in place for what to do if it happens, but there’s been an almost disappointing lack of opportunity to practice them.
Most don’t, and can’t, keep records of who’s checked out a certain book—there might be a patron number for the *last* person who did, to give the library a chance to ask what happened to the maps that used to be in it, or why the pages are glued together with syrup, but even then many institutions are limiting the time that information stays in the record. There are records of what a patron currently has checked out, and what he/she owes money on. An agency might be able to resurrect ghost information on what was checked out formerly, until the tapes are purged, but that information’s not accessible in any normal way.
“Nazi/fascist/totalitarian” doesn’t apply, although criminal overreaching might. Whatever the intent behind these moves, they so far have come to nothing. Certainly many librarians are *prepared* to protect their patrons’ privacy (just as many others are reluctant to automatically regard the FBI as the enemy), but so far they haven’t actually been called upon to do so. In a truly totalitarian state they wouldn’t dare, and it diminishes the horror of real totalitarianism to apply it to any and every government action.
In a country like this one, martial law doesn’t come on overnight but in stages, so it *is* important to stay vigilant about our rights, but it’s surely just as important to avoid hysterical screeds like some of those in this thread (which aren’t exclusive to radical journals—CNN viewers spew just as much venom just as randomly; the Internet once seemed like it could be a marvelous new town hall, but in reality it’s a town you don’t want to get stuck in, with torches and perpetually rioting villagers). What are we, forever nineteen and still mad at our parents?
Posted by Pat McClure on Sep 4, 2004 at 2:08 AM “Did the Nazis remove brutal dictators and spend billons of marks rebuilding the terrorized country?
Oh is that what the US is doing in Iraq? I thougt
“The US dehumanizing millons of people? Where?”
How about in the Philippines, Mexico, Guatemala, Jamaica, Honduras, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, to name but a few.
Have you no knowledge of history? Oh, I forgot—you’re an American. Of course you don’t.
I am so sick of Americans constantly regurgitating all these mindless, patriotic cliches. What a bunch of sheep. Can’t you people think for yourselves?
Posted by fitzrite on Sep 4, 2004 at 4:43 AM This arguing is pointless. At the most, you make the other person look foolish, and at the worst, they make you look foolish. But no one is especially impressed when you pull something over the other fellow’s head. They just look on in astonishment that people would waste their time with something so trivial, when the truth is that none of us know *anything* and so we certainly have no standing ground from which to debase one another. Having opinions is fine and good, so long as they hurt no one, and sharing opinions is fine and good, so long as they serve to better humanity in some fashion. Ken should not have insulted Mr. Vonnegut, unless he believed his statements to be constructive criticisms, but I am sure that Mr. Vonnegut has enough strength of character that he would not be ruined by a few remarks. And while I can understand the impulse to defend Mr. Vonnegut out of sympathy for another human being, I think that the bickering only serves to make you look the lesser. So long as this hostility persists, the argument cannot end, and in fact may worsen, as anyone who sympathizes with one of the parties may join the fight. So I think the best course of action, for all persons involved, would be to bury the hatchet, forgive, and forget. There are so many good things that we could be doing in the world, besides fighting one another.
Posted by Joey Dewiel on Sep 4, 2004 at 5:58 PM I can’t believe how “brainwashed” Americans are still after everything. I know you guys love your country and there’s nothing wrong with being patriotic but do learn what your country has done to others. They have destroyed so many, it’s unbelievable. Cyprus for instance is a great example, but ask any American about this beautiful island and they don’t have a clue where it even is.. I don’t like to generalize but it’s true for the most part.
Posted by Andria on Sep 4, 2004 at 7:46 PM Andria,
I blame television. We grew up learning that there isn’t a problem that can’t be solved in 60 secondsx with a pill, or in 60 minutes with a hail of bullets.
Posted by Ludwig on Sep 4, 2004 at 11:53 PM i guess americans truly don’t realize the dirty, filthy, inhumane things their government has done all over the world. then they ask ignorantly, “gee, why do they hate us?”
they hate us because we have been attacking and bombing them since 1898.
read “sorrows of empire” by chalmers johnson—it’s a book. turn off the friggin’ propaganda machine (television.)
Posted by fitzrite on Sep 5, 2004 at 5:59 AM “And I don’t regret the rain, or the nights I felt the pain, or the tears I had to cry some of those times along the way. Every road I had to take, every time my heart would break; it was just something that I had to get through, to get me to you.”
Posted by INNOCENT MICHAEL on Sep 6, 2004 at 2:05 PM I hope the American people smarten up and don’t re-elect that power crazed maniac. Not that Kerry is any better but he’s the lesser of the two evils. Bush doesn’t need to be rewarded for the last 4 years.
Posted by Andria on Sep 6, 2004 at 3:42 PM Forget war, forget elections, think terminator seed technology and transgenics—while reading the greatest work of sci-fi ever written: Kurt Vonnegut’s “Cat’s Cradle.”
It outlines perfectly and in terms an 8-year-old can understand how human intelligence seems bound to combine with our greed and stupidity to virtually end life on earth.
Posted by Linda on Sep 6, 2004 at 5:04 PM Oops, almost forgot to add—it’s also the funniest book I ever read. “Cat’s Cradle”—get it, get lots of copies, give them away.
Posted by Linda on Sep 6, 2004 at 5:06 PM andria, i couldn’t agree more. no matter what they say about kerry—and i don’t particularly like him myself—bush has done some serious, perhaps irreparable, damage to our economy and to our reputation as a country. he’s got to go. i don’t think ANYONE could do any worse. he is by far the biggest liar, thief and all-around moron i have seen in the white house in my lifetime—worse than reagan, and i didn’t think that was possible.
Posted by fitzrite on Sep 6, 2004 at 10:09 PM fitzrite, finally an American that know his shit. I’m actually Canadian and , basically our whole country is hoping you guys don’t re-elect that loser. Sorry, but that’s what he is. I hope you’ve been albe to get your point across to your fellow citizens.
Posted by Andria on Sep 7, 2004 at 6:36 PM Andria,
My father’s family is from Nova Scotia (his first cousin, Walter Fitzgerald, was mayor of Halifax). I’m actually thinking of leaving this crazy country, and moving to someplace where the people are civilized. I’ve been to Canada and found the people there to be lovely. But it’s so cold up there!
“Four more years of Bush and Canada won’t seem so cold.”—M. Moore
Posted by fitzrite on Sep 7, 2004 at 9:29 PM One of the problems that I have with Americans is their lack of knowledge of their closest neighbour.
Canada is cold in some parts. Some are actually very mild. In Southern BC where I live, in the past three years, we have had a total of 7 days of snow. There is a reason why it’s called the Sunshine Coast. But better hurry, as Americans are buying up the place and moving their near draft aged kids here by the trainloads.
Posted by Gabe on Sep 7, 2004 at 9:50 PM In the comments to your eariler article on PPs [ http://www.inthesetimes.com/comments.php?id=38_100_4_0 ] was the followng website:
http://amsterdam.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-0303/msg00088.html
An extreme theory, to put it mildly. However it posited DRD4 R7 as a genetic cause of psychopathalogy. Have you ever heard of this from any other source? And did the entire email ever show up?
Thanks
Posted by eastcoaster on Sep 8, 2004 at 12:21 AM I’ve been to Halifax, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina and Swift Current, and I know that it is fucking COLD.
I also know that Vancouver has more automobiles per capita than any city in the world, which proves its citizens are as stupid as Angelenos.
Posted by fitzrite on Sep 8, 2004 at 5:14 AM Aside from Niagara Falls, having a draft-aged kid might possibly be the only reason to go to Canada.
Posted by Ryan Conover on Sep 9, 2004 at 5:50 AM Ah, come on. Canada’s got great scenery, wide-open spaces, an Indian province (don’t tell me it’s Native American—most Indians don’t use it and even some activists avoid it for its divisiveness), nice people, clean cities, world-class medical research, higher literacy, education and health rates than ours, and the most beautiful strippers in the world (in Vancouver), according to some survey somewhere.
It’s suddenly trendy to mock Canadians, for some reason—people don’t even know why they’re doing it, they just think it sounds clever. Canadians used to complain that we didn’t know they existed—the good old days.
Even Bush left out Canada in his list of “our closest friends” after 9/11, even though Canada had sheltered the U.S. passengers from all the downed planes for days, their firemen and medical teams had volunteered immediately to help in New York, and their blood banks had lines around the block. So Ryan, you and the Prez have something in common after all.
Posted by Pat McClure on Sep 9, 2004 at 7:40 PM I love Canada and I would live there in a heatbeat if it weren’t so cold. Americans are just too damn ignorant for me, not to mention the fact that the U.S. is in the midst of a Fascist takeover. Time to get out. Canada may not be far enough.
Posted by fitzrite on Sep 9, 2004 at 8:12 PM ROBERT REICH ON ELECTION 2004
Bush’s top seven agenda items for a second term:1. Invade and occupy Iran.
2. Make tax cuts permanent for richest 5 percent.
3. Patriot II: Let Ashcroft eavesdrop, monitor, watch, question anyone at any time.
4. Gut most remaining environment and worker safety protections.
5. Pack Supreme Court with Stepford Wives, overrule Roe v. Wade, bar gay marriage, and put prayer back in schools.
6. Gerrymander all congressional districts to assure a permanent Republican majority.
7. Make the budget deficit so big that Social Security has to be privatized because there’s no money to fund it.
Posted by fitzrite on Sep 9, 2004 at 8:16 PM Canada is one of the safest places to live. Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? We know a lot about other countries too!!!
Posted by Andria on Sep 10, 2004 at 12:41 AM Yes, so true. I couldn’t believe the waitresses in the bar I worked in in Saskatoon actually WALKED home at night.
I love Canada and I love Canadians. I was born in the wrong country.
I also admire Swedes and Danes for having civilized, progressive governments, not to mention relatively just, sane societies.
Why are all these places so darn COLD!
Posted by fitzrite on Sep 10, 2004 at 1:10 AM okay well if any of u lefties can tell me if kerry is for the war hes against, or is he against the war he is for if u can tell me that then i can decide my vote. maybe some of you left wingers dont watch the history channel, or know anything of history at ALL, because if you havnt noticed there were terrorist attacks going on before we were even born, maybe they werent bombing of buildings, but you really need to use more common sense in ur logic, terrorism was going to spread to the united states sooner or later. and its a good thing there is no democrat in leadership in washington because i dont want a leader that wont take action. here is how much sense you make: (D)=Democrat (T)= Terrorist Leader
(D) Hey Terrorists
(T) Hey man hows it goin
(D) That wasnt nice what you did but if you want to do it again go ahead because i wont stop you
(T) Oh thanks man umm is it ok if we make headquarters somewhere in your country
(D) ya sure man cuz..like i said i wont stop ya
(T) haha ok thanks a lot man this makes things so much easier and i can attack you on a daily basis rather than just once.
(D) no problem, I am president of the united states, and since i did nothing to stop you, i sound 400000x stupider than president George W. Bush.
(T) hahaha stupid moron
(D) Cya round palI dont know if any of you understand what you have done to this great outstanding nation, your media, has spread worldwide and made america a mockery of what we stand for, and its ur protests that make us look bad un ununited and in utter chaos.
maybe we need to watch the videos of the HUMAN BODIES the PEOPLE WITH A SOUL, THE PEOPLE WITH HEARTS AND A FAMILY, maybe you guyz need to see what they did to us, maybe we need to think outside of the box like Bush did, maybe you all need to see the pictures and videos of people jumping out of the twin towers rather than staying inside because they thought it would be better to fall to there death and watch there life pass before there eyes than to die inside those buildings. do i need to post the links to the sites where you can hear the bodies of HUMAN BEINGS falling from 40+ stories in the sky SMASHING there BODIES on the CARS parked on AMERICAS ROADS. i dont think you guyz think EVER, EVER do you EVER recap what RECENTLY happened in the great nation of the United States.
too bad you ruined this nation, its a shame what you have done to us, i cant believe what you did to the United States of America. why did you do this too us, how in the name of god can you not support the troops in iraq and afghanistan who have families back in the united states, do you think they want to be there, do you think they want to do YOUR time, they do what they do to keep US the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA free from people like them, we dont need them, WE DONT NEED TERRORISTS! and we dont need people that 1 dont support good actions, 2 dont support our soldiers and 3 dont think about what they have done.
In the spririt of the political season,
I am Mike Mattson, 16 and From Wisconsin and I APPROVE THIS MESSAGE!
God Bless America, and forgive those who trespass upon us.
Posted by Mike on Sep 11, 2004 at 9:32 AM No offence but haven’t you seen or heard how many countries that have been bombed by the U.S.? The number of people killed is far more than the amount of people that died on 9/11.
Don’t just look at your own country, try looking into Laos, Cyprus, Vietnam…in other words countries that are so small that they don’t have the funds to fight back!!! Do you that CNN only shows what they want to show? Do you also know that last year the U.S. bombed a supermarket in Iraq where mothers were shopping with their kids “by accident” but of course they don’t show that to the public over here. They have us (the majority) so brainwashed that it’s ridiculous! I’m so proud of Michael Moore for stepping forward with his film and trying to educate the American people!!!! Kerry is not much better but as I previously mentioned, he’s the lesser of the two evils!!
Posted by Andria on Sep 11, 2004 at 3:35 PM -
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