Prison in the Cards

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• Reader Comments (240)

  Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >

  This article seems well intended, however; wouldn’t it be more beneficial to identify why young black men get themselves into this situation in the first place. Poverty, lack of education, lack of two parent households, etc. are all possible reasons, but I can find just as many kids that grew up under the same conditions that do not get into trouble. To talk about the inequality in sentencing only diverts the conversation. The fact that you are being sentenced, shows that we are already behind the 8 ball in discussing a solution.

  Posted by John on Aug 16, 2004 at 8:32 PM

  Poverty, single parent household, lack of education, etc. have a role in crime, however there are significant numbers of poor uneducated whites in the drug culture yet the prison population doesn’t reflect this.  Whites refuse to face the reality of why so many Black males are incarcerated, which simply is modern day Jim Crow.  The “War on Drugs” is completely focused on people of color.  Inequality in sentences is not to divert the issue, it IS the issue.  Statistics show a larger portion of the white population use, abuse, sell, and participate in drug activity.  It is also shown that Blacks/Latinos are many times more likely to be stopped, searched, and arrested via profiling.  It’s also a given that sentencing on first and repeat offenders is stiffer for nonwhites.  So, while a disproportionate percentage of the Black race is in prison, if criminal justice were equal, just as large a percentage of the white population would be incarcerated.  Prison rehabilitation is a joke, and obtaining employment even worse being an ex-con, so a vicious cycle begins, which will only worsen crime rates for the future.  The prison industry is a growth industry, and who better to target than the underclass, particularly the least empowered?  SWAT teams don’t bust in doors in some parts of town where I live.  The “raids” are conducted in the poorest, usually Blackest, part of town.  Stats show Black incarceration for drug offenses is 20 times that for whites with equal or greater drug law violations.  I know it’s a tired refrain, but true, it’s racism.  One might even think a quiet, socially acceptable form of genocide.

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 17, 2004 at 3:28 AM

  Ever since white America began importing millions of African slaves to unjustly enrich herself she has intentionally mistreated those slaves and their descendants.  Today in 2004 Afro-Descendants do not enjoy equal job opportunities, equal housing opportunities, equal health opportunities or equal justice under the law.
    The U.S. government which has always been owned and controlled by very wealthy Caucasians has been exploiting Afro-Descendants for such a long period of time that it takes for granted its power to do so.
    However, the wheels of justice are finally catching up with white America.  By continuing to practice ethnocide and forced assimilation against Afro-Descendants, the USA is blatantly violating U.N. Covenants.  Sufficient evidence has been presented by African-American activists to merit the U.N. placing a Reparations Sanction upon the guilty U.S. government. 
    Why can’t white America see the handwriting on the wall?  Because long-term arrogance has deluded her into thinking that she can get away with centuries of mass murder and exploitation.  When a wicked nation’s rulers repeatedly claim that the economy is strong and getting stronger, even though it has a $7 trillion dollar debt, even though 9 million citizens are unemployed,even though 42 million have no health insurance, and even though it is waging unjust catastrophic wars based on lies, then we are justified in concluding that those rulers are leading their own people straight into hell.
    Considering the massive impact of the lingering effects of plantation slavery and current institutionalized racism which are converting many Black and Brown inner cities into killing fields, when self-deluded Caucasians blame most of the suffering of Afro-Descendants on the victims of white oppression they are confirming to civilized nations around the world that the USA is the worst human rights violator on the planet.
  Sincerely,
  Malik Al-Arkam
  www.AllForReparations.org

  Posted by Malik Al-Arkam on Aug 17, 2004 at 11:35 AM

  Equality in the prison system does not fix the problem for young black men. Let us imagine that there was no disparity between whites and blacks in the prison system and by population, the numbers were proportionate. That does not lesson the number of blacks being incarcerated. My point is, we need to fix the problem that puts young black men in the position that they would even go to prison, rather than equalize it by putting more whites in to catch up.

  Posted by John on Aug 17, 2004 at 1:35 PM

  Malik, get over it already!!! Black Americans are the richest group of “Africans” in the world. The slave trade was a horrible stain on our country’s history, but we need to move on in order for us to achieve.

  Posted by John on Aug 17, 2004 at 1:38 PM

  John,
  If whites were going to prison at the same rate (which they should be) the “problem” would be “fixed” b/c white society would sound an alarm.  In other words, the same problems destroying much of Black America are also killing a large segment of poor white and lower middle class America, addiction, single parenting, violent crime, domestic violence, lack of education, etc.  The “remedy” currently is incarceration for Blacks, while ignoring and/or coddling (in that the incarceration rates are discrepant)  poor whites in the same distress.  The think tanks can study the situation all they want, the politicians can use it, the scholars can expound on abstract solutions, and the problem is ignored, until the next round of grants, funding, and elections for someone to blather about it again. 

  Many of the whites I’m acquainted with are comforted with the stats on Black incarceration as it gives them superiority (it lifts their dysfunctional lives and status a notch in their own mind).  I believe, eventually (soon) where the country is heading will force this lower class segment of white society into the same cells.  By then it may be too late for the poor of America, regardless of color.  The social segment someone named the “useless feeders” will be viable only as free (prison) labor, cannon fodder, and shit work (and dumb enough to be grateful for it). 

  Although I don’t agree at this time with reparations for a variety of reasons, I find it disparaging when I hear someone describe slavery as “a stain on our history.”  A stain was on the blue dress.

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 17, 2004 at 3:08 PM

  “Get over it!”

  Christ, where have I heard that lame expression about a thousand fucking times the past three years!

  Posted by Windex on Aug 17, 2004 at 6:25 PM

  I would like to chime in and say something about the “get over it” comment. If we could all get over it, this would be a great country. The fact is that the white people that are running this country do just the opposite and keep the hate and oppression alive.

  Think of it this way, the same people that were against civil rights in the first place are still alive and kicking and they still have their positions of power in congress and in the 100% white senate of the united states.

  How is it possible for a person that believes that minorities should neither receive equal rights under the constitution nor deserve said rights in our free system simply supposed to ignore the racial issues when it comes to passing legislation. I do beleive that the problem would be dealt with a great deal better if there were more white americans in jail that there were black people in jail. Most people when they see the scarey black people in jail, the first thought that comes to their minds is “look at this guy, he must have done something wrong”. That rational is the catalyst to all of the little people that stand by and let these things happen, as if they are a non issue and should be “gotten over”.

  Posted by Myron on Aug 17, 2004 at 9:15 PM

  Hey Democrats:  It’s Gut-Check Time…Again
  This extraordinary political season highlights a number of important questions for Democrats in their battle to wrest away from Republicans copyrights to the political definition of the term “liberal.”  Election 2004 presents yet another political gut-check for a Democratic party that in recent years have woefully avoided face-offs with Republicans like the kid who feigns a tummy ache to avoid going to school and facing the class bully.  Conservatives have managed to tighten their stranglehold on countless political labels and very successfully continue to negatively define liberalism.  All the while Americans in the middle are dazed and confused by one of the many conservative political contradictions, distorting the face of who we are (or should be) as Americans.  This history of America is steeped in the verbiage of “Lady Liberty,” “With Liberty And Justice For All” and “Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death?”  Subsequently, it would appear our founding fathers were on to something pretty special with this liberal-thing.  But conservatives have perhaps forever morphed “liberal” into something akin to communism—sinful, un-American and dangerous to our children.  Thus, from the top of the Democratic ticket on down, liberals must decide now—continue to fear right-wing zealots’ rapid fire attacks that seem to always strike home with many American voters or decide to meet these bullies head up, go on the offensive and expose this administration that can’t get through a week without doing something corrupt, questionable or just outright stupid.

  Posted by Jeff King on Aug 18, 2004 at 5:12 AM

  Jeff - I did my gut-check 20 years ago and found “liberals” weren’t doing enough then, and even less now, but that’s to be expected as Dems are the other cheek on the PNACorporate ass.  Even with a Kerry win there will be no change to the handbasket we’re in.  We’re Pavlov-ed with slogans and jingo, Give ‘Em Just informercial politics.  I think the founding fathers would be surprised we’ve kept the republic as long as we have.

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 18, 2004 at 11:28 AM

  Elitarr, I absolutely agree with you about our founding fathers, however it is because of liberalism that our republic is in jeopardy. We cannot survive with the left taxing and spending and the right tax-cutting and spending. Both sides are vying for votes and have resorted to offering more than the other guy to get them. Until we realize that freedom is the cornerstone of our society and that equal opportunity does not guarantee equal achievement, we are lost.

  Posted by John on Aug 18, 2004 at 3:43 PM

  John -
  I don’t believe the problem lies with left and right vying for votes nor their methods of taxing/spending/cutting/spending.  I believe it’s the usual failure of capital and empire and as always they’ve convinced the peons it’s merely a difference between parties, or “isms,” or our crusade vs their crusade on the international front.  History repeating itself with bombs instead of catapult and tar or canon and sword.  Another money fight amongst the world’s ruling elite.  Wave a little plastic flag, buy yellow ribbons; at least in the current spat they aren’t blowing brains out in the plaza or hotel kitchens and balconies - yet.

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 18, 2004 at 5:05 PM

  I grew up in Arkansas and I am forty-five. I have seen a lot of changes in society and the world of the black Americans with my own eyes.  I believe that the serious discriminations of the black people in the past have created a far reaching effect that is not healing.  While blacks are not treated as badly as they were in the past, they still, as a race, have a legacy of poverty. These people have traditionally had no wealth to hand down, property, or businesses for the most part. They have a history of desperation and having to break the rules to survive. The black man and women have been in a no win situation that is only beginning to rectified. The attitude that black Americans have had to have, to deal with their oppression, has become part of their culture. Black men learn to take risks that society disapproves of because they alway have had to, to survive.  They feel differently about commiting crimes because black men have traditionally had to break the rules to have anything and give their families what they needed. Many black men today have parents that still went to segragated schools and remember black only resturants. Im only 45, and I remember them.  There is only room for a little here, but I known many blacks people and they don’t veiw the law as something that they can trust or count on to protect them.

  Posted by Leslie on Aug 18, 2004 at 5:13 PM

  I am impressed by the level of dialogue that I have read here.  Keep it up.  But let’s not forgot that the victims of crimes perpetrated by african-americans are overwhemingly african-american themselves.  Law enforcement can only do so much.  We need to invest in our communities and provide real, workable alternatives to a crime as a way of life.  I wish I knew the answer.

  Incidentally, those concerned about sentencing guidelines would be well-advised to review the recent U.S. Supreme Court decision:  Blakely v. Washington, 542 U.S. ___, 124 S.Ct. 2531, 159 L.Ed.2d 403 (2004).  For all intents and purposes, the guidelines are a thing of the past.

  Will those laying the incarceration problem at the foot of the sentencing guideline scheme be vidicated?  I doubt it.

  Posted by acbloom on Aug 18, 2004 at 7:27 PM

  Leslie -
  Even during the worst of Jim Crow and oppresion in the last century many Blacks went on to become successful doctors, lawyers, entrepreneurs, land owners, writers, poets, musicians, teachers, and all within the existing laws.  Some might say the degradation of Blacks began after integration with whites. 

  Of course there’s racism, I could recite of laundry list of incidents from my own life, but that would in no way excuse theft, robbery, drugs, or any other illegal behavior of choice.  Oppression, poverty, lack of opportunity contribute to crime but do not excuse it.  I’ve a few years on you and also have seen change.  I’ve seen too many Blacks develop a chip on their shoulder and “the world owes me” attitude.  I’ve also seen that posture increase in white society.  I understand the despair, and it grieves me, but I can’t excuse a criminal response to it.  I don’t trust the police, not b/c I’m Black (although in certain situations that’s a factor) but b/c the best definition of a cop is a “repressed sadist.”  (And I have family who are cops.) 

  Black men aren’t taking “risks to survive” when they deal drugs, rob the liquor store, or pimp out.  They’re looking for easy money, quick money, just as their white counterparts who do the same thing.  The lack of opportunity to work at decent jobs with decent pay and benefits, the infusion of drugs despite billions spent on the “War on Drugs, a government education of dumbing and numbing,  and other social factors are destroying a large part of Black and white America.  What is needed to deal with oppression is strength of character and courage to confront it.  That’s what much of Black and white America has lost. 

  acbloom -
  not sure what you mean by “laying the incarceration problem at the foot…”.  Does this mean more Bubba and Earl’s in the cell with Tyrone?  Or that justice will be meted out evenly regardless of race, class, creed, etc.?

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 18, 2004 at 8:13 PM

  John by the way, listen to Leslie when you say “Get over it”. I am only 29 and guess what? My maternal great grandfather was bi-racial (yes, due to rape) and my maternal great great grandmother was a slave in S.Carolina - this is is documented family history. So guess what, they had no wealth of any sort to pass to the next generation. Compound interest? Forget it. And don’t even start on the Native Americans. Yup I’ve got a great, great paternal grandmother who’s of the Blackfoot Nation - man am I rackin’ up the points. Or get over it?

  Of course, people aren’t allowed to lynch African-Americans in the street (but there was that draggin’ through Texas….), so that’s good. (I’m not being snide here), but what else should we get over?

  The US government made me and mine 3/5ths of a person, subsidized loans and grants for returning GIs that my family couldn’t get take advantage of, despite the fact that they served their country well (WWII, Vietnam, Korea - 4 uncles, 1 purple heart), yada, yada, yada. So no Norman Rockwell for us, no first home in the burbs with a VA or college loan that is most Americans form of wealth which can be passed down. Nope, guess I have get over that too.

  Present day? I went to private school, private little Ivy college and that’s alot of blood and tears from previous generations of my people that I’m even there. Yup, my Grandma did the domestic thing with all of its perils and lack of social security credits. But when your European American peers in college display the attitudes, ignorance and sometimes outright public contempt that will translate into votes, public policy and the fact I’m going to have to shell out for private school for my daughter due to dis-investment in inner city schools where I live in a “hot” neighborhood that only recieved attention when the European Americans rediscovered our melting pot boho turn of the century buildings and priced out everyone else, but African -American people that live on the fringes be damned, I’m still getting over a lot of things. Particulary since these unfortunate African -American kids around the corner could have been my daughter’s wonderful upstanding husband, my son-in-law and a productive member of society instead of marginalized. Too bad honey, no nice, chocolate brown, Barry White voiced husband for you!

  Especially since these same European people have been passed wealth through my people’s slavery, through my people’s economic and political disenfranchisement down through the present day. So I can’t find a professional mentor powerful enough to hold my hand the way that Becky Worthington Mayflower gets her hand held which translates into thousands of dollars in pay, promotions and benefits over our lives and because I’m African American I’m typically at most starting 400 years, at least 139 years behind her starting line; this is regardless of if she came on the Mayflower or her people came here to the US last week. She’s still perpetuating my pain and her privilege.

  And NOW OF ALL THE NERVE, this same Becky wants to claim my people’s victimhood, as if victimization pays out so well. But hey, at least we’re richer than Africans from Africa, all they have is flies, HIV and death, we should be grateful to be here. Yes, that’s how shitty that statement sounded. “well….you guys are the richest people of African descent…..” give me a damn break. If the African nations hadn’t been bankrupted and stripped by European imperialism, they could have enjoyed their own resources as well instead of the shambles, bloated children and lots of flies. But we should get over that too? Yup I feel better already….

  Economically speaking, we’ve been robbed of the capital we put into our birth country and now, for capital purposes, since so many of us are surplus labor, and dammit in the 60’s we had the nerve to ask for equality and a little backpay, America decides to lock us up far out of proportion so everyone can feel safe at night instead of doing something constructive. I should get over that too?

  Constructive you say? Let’s see what jobs are there shall we?  Our infrastructure and public laugh-portation, I mean, transportation could use some work; people could be trained as teachers and aides so that inner city classrooms aren’t 60 to 1, yeah that’s swell for learning; we could train some as physician’s assistants and aides so that rural, salt of the earth John Boy types wouldn’t have to drive 200 miles for primary care; wow these new dealish ideas could help everyone, lift everyone’s boat so to speak.

  I’m certainly not advocating crime - however is a poor African man who steals worse than a privileged European who doesn’t need the money and takes your mother’s pension on the way out of the door with a 100 million dollar severance package? Both wrong, but one is really wrong. Should we start profiling European, educated males in business as definitely headed for white collar crimes of gigantic proportions and lock ‘em up, at say, age 12?

  I would also like to point out that DEMOCRACY or FREEDOM (as it has been dumbed down) is a political ideology. CAPITAL/ CAPITALISM/ FREE MARKET is an economic system. Somehow, your friendly neighborhood politicos have made them one and the same. My point? Our goverment has subsidized the movement of private capital, private education, private anything and taken the public trust into private hands to an egregious outocme. And what does that mean? Private entities with tacit agreement (if not legislation) from governemnt has dictated the terms of our lives and pitted us all by race, when we should be organized by our humanity. Get over it huh?

  Or how would you like to be the national (and of course with now international media) whipping boys and girls for everything gone wrong in the country? A colleague of mine from China was WAY OFF BASE about African-Americans until she actually met some - she thought we were all rappers and hoochies with criminal proclivities. No money? The blacks and their damn entitlements did it. Kid can’t get into Radcliffe? Some obviously underqualified black chick got in, on full scholarship too! Hard day at work? Damn those sassy black people and their ambitions at work, same as ours. As if!

  However, as it was said earlier, this lack of oppportunity is now starting to effect the good European Americans as well.  Now everyone is faced with the slippery slope of declining standards of living, lack of civil responsiblity and common decency. Yeah, that’s right, unless you own your own business free and clear, you’re WORKING CLASS TOO Dr. Silicone Valley who’s job got outsourced to Dr. New Delhi.

  This is a bit of a rant and not nearly as polished (and spell-checked) as I would like, but it encapsulates some of the utter incredulity that I and many of my peers feel when people tell us to get over it. Obviously we haven’t. YOU want us to get over it - but didn’t Jewish people popularize the phase”...never forget….” ? I dare anyone to tell them get over it…..

  Posted by Ingrid on Aug 18, 2004 at 8:24 PM

  Dear Ingrid,

  I could not have said it any better and I don’t know of many others who have said it better then you, in reply to the “get over it” statement. I once attended a meeting with Condoleeza Rice where she said that whenever she sat down with two parties in a post conflict situation, she would tell both sides to “get over the past, including the death and destruction caused by the other if you want to have a future.” I stood up an asked her if she ever would say that to a Jewish person? Needless to say, she did not respond to my question!

  Posted by Marc on Aug 19, 2004 at 1:34 PM

  All,

  It seems that a little phrase, “Get over it”, touched a nerve. Well, that is what we need in this country. We need nerves touched. You cannot grow without heartache and if pissing people off moves the dialogue forward, then I have done my job. The last thing that I would like to say about this subject is…. How has blaming the white man helped the black community? If it were that easy, we would have had resolution a long time ago. My point is we need to look inward to solve these problems. We cannot be free if we continually ignore some real issues within our own community and consistently blame whitey for our problems. Thanks for listening!

  Posted by John on Aug 19, 2004 at 1:35 PM

  If you want to know what Blacks do, just look at a country that is run by Blacks.  Blacks had 600,000 years of evolutionary history in Africa, one of the richest countries in natural resources in the world, to develop and progress and they never even invented a written language. 
  I have come to the conclusion that what will solve the “Race” problem, is for each race to have its own living space.  Then each race will have to face its own problems and not blame them on some other race.  I wish this could happen, but it is not going to, and the world will end in a race struggle that will destroy all.  When the “dark races” over-populate the world and the prison systems cant hold anymore, all civility will vanish and the world will collaspe under its own ignorance and barberism.  We will retun to the dark ages.
  In the future, there will be no more space probes, medical discoveries, airplanes or the like….only a society where hip hop cultures reign supreme.  Is that a great future or what?

  Posted by jc on Aug 19, 2004 at 2:50 PM

  We shouldn’t continue punishing people for time served. Those with records of any sort should have the opportunity for those records to be wiped clean as it pertains to employers. Like a credit report, crime records should be sealed and not be made available to potential employers after the probationary period ends – or a minimum of a year or two, whichever is shorter. These individuals should also be allowed to participate in federally funded education programs that would allow them to finance and afford for themselves a college education.

  Lighten sentences for first time offenders allowing for alternatives to jail time.
  Pump more money into urban schools that will allot for smaller classes and aim for a more diverse student population.
  Create programs that will allow students in these schools to explore and develop their career goals – ie if they are interested in Journalism send them to a TV station for a day, or a couple of hours per week.
  Offer more career counseling and encourage students to diversify their skills in order to remain competitive, and teach them that they can win and create a better life for themselves but at the same time remain realistic.
  The community also needs to address the issue of teen pregnancy, because a lot of young African American females have babies because they see no future and feel that at least they can get and give love to a child. This idea sounds noble, but it only continues the cycle of poverty.
  It may be time for tough love in order to teach and encourage both young people and adults to try with everything they’ve got to avoid becoming a statistic, and to support community resources that aid in the cause.

  Posted by Rayne on Aug 19, 2004 at 3:29 PM

  No. Saying “blame whitey” for everything, that’s an oversimplification and an emotional response to a complex question of economic and legal culpability. I don’t blame Becky or Bob Worthington Mayflower PERSONALLY for problems of African-Americans, BUT, they are not totally absolved because the system is ongoing and they’re a benefitin’ and a participatin’ in it.

  That’s why when you sign a contact for services, most times there is a clause that attachs responsibility for the debt to your estate and YOUR HEIRS AFTER YOUR DEATH. They want their money for services rendered dammit. 

  Yet European Americans refuse in varying degrees and methods to engage the issue in the dignified ECONOMIC AND LEGAL response that it deserves. When my African ancestors came here, they were damn sure recorded in legal and economic terms. For auction by Mr. Smith, one black buck, strong, good for field work, $25. (Or in a woman’s case good for work and breeding, wink, wink).

  European Americans (and just about everyone) universally recognizes the power of the pocketbook. We’re just not used to the idea after being kidnapped, workin’ for free, getting ripped off (or beaten or murdered or raped or at least robbed) or playing the “game” for years only to have a new Becky or Bob surpass you when they have no seniority, and now you’ve caught a case of “Jamal…you seem to have an ....attitude…..”, so on and so forth. 

  In the interest of making America comfortable with what’s at stake here, let’s play the game that they’re used to - The Game of Economics.

  Give African Americans the value of their labor plus interest accured.

  We’ll definitely shut up then - it will make the playing field real level. Funny thing is, you’ll then find a WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE claiming to be of African-American slave descent where before anything was better than…“black”. Then let’s see what these displaced young African American men have to offer to the world. And if they screw up, there is no room for excuse.

  Funny thing is when reparations are introduced people say:
  1. That won’t solve anything.(America is one of the most litigitous places in the world and I KNOW it’s not just African-Americans with Pre-Paid Legal on auto dial.)
  2. It would bankrupt the country. (That didn’t stop America from jackin’ up other countries along with the World Bank and IMF).
  3. I’m not paying for what a bunch of dead white people did. (You’re still benfitin’)
  4. You people have a chip on your shoulders. (Yup…)
  4. Blacks wouldn’t know what to do with all of that money. They’d drink it up, shop it up and act like animals. (My favorite assumption. As if European American lottery winners from the stix do any better.)
  5. That would involve proving their heritage - too complex. (We can agree on that - look at the warm welcome the “un-official” family of Thomas Jefferson received from the “official” family. Or aw shucks, look at how good ole’ Strom Thurmond did his “other family”. Wasn’t Strom a grown man in his 20s and Washington a teen age girl? Hmmmm….so that’s why my great grand dad looks like that….)

  I could go on and on, but I won’t.

  There is legal basis - Japanese internment victims were compensated and got an apology (as it should be)and this recompense was just for WWII.

  It took 400 years to screw us up and now we’re supposed to rebound in 39 years?

  And by the way, we’re not holding our breath, waiting for, “whitey” as it was put, to make it right - thus the ceaseless striving for better.

  Have you given your time to these lost urban African-American children that wind up in jail? Have you smiled at them and not reacted like they were going to steal the fillings out of your mouth? Or did you Cosby them because their pants are too big? (Zoot suits were seem as thuggish and anti-establishment back in the day. We laugh now.) When have you visited and spent money at an African American business or did you wonder if they were qualified enough off the bat?

  Have you given appreciation to all of the decent, progressive European Americans fighting the good fight with us on the basis of their sense of justice - truly there some. Did you check your European girlfriend or guyfriend when they said some societally internalized bullshit about African-Americans? Trying saying anything less than complimentary about Jewish people and get used to a mote in your eye and the label anti-Semitic.

  You need to keep an eye on your financial advisor, real estate agent and your government representatives who sit on treasury and commerce, transportation and energy boards - that’s who the hell we as African Americans should worry about as well as “whitey”. Oh yeah, George W. and his ilk too.

  Posted by Ingrid on Aug 19, 2004 at 3:35 PM

  I find the talk of reparations sad. When I think of the growing numbers of Black on Black crime, doesn’t this mean in theory that generations of African Americans will then owe reparations to each other? I’m sure anyone who has lost someone they cared about to drug or gang violence would agree. If you don’t think these acts to be just as deplorable as slavery, explain that to a mother who just lost her 6 year old. Reparations do not have to equal a handout, we can honor our ancestors by becoming better as a people, by taking the lead and deciding that our destiny is not spelled out for us by passable obstacles. We can make our own reparations.

  We can do this, and if we can’t we shouldn’t expect someone else to do it for us.

  Posted by Rayne on Aug 19, 2004 at 4:04 PM

  Word

  Posted by John on Aug 19, 2004 at 4:18 PM

  By the way JC, Europe was in the dark ages until it decided to “borrow” many ideas from Asia, Africa and the Middle East. (Math, frequent bathing, medicine, the number zero, pepper, astronomy, fireworks, paper, etc.) Then Europe straight plundered and raped its way around the globe for riches until present…wait there is that Iraqi oil thing…

  I’m not exact about the title, read a book called The Colonizer’s View of the World - be prepared, this academic book doesn’t have pictures. You need to be informed about your own history before you can speak on anyone elses.

  It could be said that Europe didn’t do it better, they just did it more viciously. I’d be evil if I was shut up in a leaky castle with lice, eating sheep, blooded by leeches, no deoderant and the sound of monks preaching all day and repressed sexuality too. In their defense, I too would need to get away and go pillage. Anything would be better than that.

  And who are you calling the dark races exactly? I could be related to you (hope not), seriously, and my mother and many maternal relatives are probably “whiter” than you think - they could work at your job (if you have one) and you wouldn’t know they’re African-American by appearence, especially since they don’t roll with Snoop Dog, don’t drink 40s and have no gold teeth. But funny thing is, people like you are such hypocrites - I caught you checking me out of the corner of your eye hoping my husband wouldn’t notice. Yeah, Strom said wasn’t me for years….

  Your comments are indicative of societally internalized bullshit. Hip hop doesn’t define AFRICAN AMERICAN CULTURE. It is ONE musical and poetic expression of the marginalized urban people in our group and particulary of the prison culture that was expressed in the above article. Let’s see any Louis Armstrong or Eubie Blake or Marian Anderson, Fefe Dobson, Hootie and the Blowfish, Bobby McFerrin or Beyonce anyone?

  But guess what? Hip hop didn’t explode on the scene until some European Americans thought a dollar could be made from it.

  Does Marilyn Manson define what the world would be like if European culture took over unmitigated? Wierdo quasi religious sacrifices? Trailer parks? Homoerotic bustiers for men? Glass eyes and and the eroticism of inflicted pain? Drug abuse ala We’re All Stars in the Dope Show? Real nice….

  But now, the grown folks are not going to entertain anymore inflammatory crap - its getting off the subject at hand. Go play while I go vote people with your attitude out of office.

  Posted by Ingrid on Aug 19, 2004 at 4:31 PM

  I doubt anyone will read this, but eighty percent of the planet is darker than a shopping bag and poor (or LOWER middle class, at BEST). Meanwhile, twenty percent of the planet is lighter than a shopping bag and middle class or rich. This ain’t an accident! This is the end result of generations of sabotage/conspiracy (the war on drugs, for instance) designed to ensure that blondes and redheads never get “bred out”. Even though Tiger Woods and Halle Berry are doing just fine, that’s not good enough for the powerful who still pull the strings. Get over THAT!

  Posted by Saab Lofton on Aug 19, 2004 at 4:37 PM

  I see that we have gone well beyond sentencing guidelines and it appears that we have gone well beyond the scope of the article.  I am still impressed by the dialogue and I learn something every time there is a new post.  My contribution, while it bit drier, does focus on sentencing guidelines.  As I stated earlier, the recent U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Blakely v. Washington has all but rendered the sentencing guidelines obsolete.  This is of particular interest when discussing the African-American incarceration problem, because it is the sentencing guidelines that since their inception have been largely responsible for the draconian drug sentences handed down by federal and select state courts.

  As a concrete example of this, and the racially disparate sentencing that has resulted from the guidelines, many have pointed to the difference in sentencing between crack-cocaine and powder cocaine.  Blakely has now rendered the guidelines unconstitutional (as many knew all along).  Therefore, we can no longer lay the problems in disparate sentencing “at the feet of the guidelines”.

  The question remains, absent the guidelines and their admittedly unfair (and in many practical respects racist) sentencing rubric will our prison population become more diverse??  Was the African-American incarceration problem a result of the guidelines??  As the courts begin to re-sentence hundreds of thousands of inmates in light of Blakely, I guess we will find out for sure. 

  My last question:  There is no doubt but that harsh sentences, mandatory minimums and the guidelines themselves contributed to a reduction in violent crime during the 1990s.  This is bolstered by the fact that said harsh sentences are beginning to expire and violent crime has increased as the gangsters of the early 1990s are being released from prison.  We know that said crime is most harmful to inner city communities.  What will the new sentencing scheme mean for those communities? 

  As I stated before, African-Americans are not only disproportionally incarcerated, they are also disproportionally victimized by violent crime.  We must not forget therefore, that any change in the law enforcement scheme cuts both ways…

  Posted by acbloom on Aug 19, 2004 at 5:10 PM

  By way, really nice things came out of Europe too. IKEA, the Statue of David by MichaelAngelo, Pierce Brosnan, croissants, Sting, mozzerella with pesto….mmmmm

  But seriously, the prison gulag here as Rayne said is really denying these young men the opportunity to reform their lives through education or businesses.

  That said, don’t let all of these African American men totally off the hook either. Some are in trouble becuase they prey on society and those are the ones who incorrigible. Those are the ones that shame their mothers and fathers and know better. Do the crime, do the time, but society needs to make sure they are doing the same time that everyone else is, that they are getting the death penalty at the same rate as everyone else. And if I where to ever catch my daughter in something illegal? Just like Grandma told me, “I’ll walk you to the police station myself….”

  One of the biggest problems is that their crimes are held to longer sentences and they have less chances for reentry into society for nonviolent crimes then people of other races. Who wants to hire a African American or Latino American ex con, no matter what they did? Martha and Ken Lay are getting speaking engagements when they get out.

  Example, I had to testify against someone who stole my license plates this year. In the courtroom, while I waited for my trial, one guy was there because he missed meetings with his parole officer. He had excuses, but his crimes were drug abuse, minor distribution, nothing else. The judge sent him packing to jail for 2 years.

  Now the next guy was on parole and had an extensive record of DUIs (and accidents) since the 1980s and was in court again for another DUI on a revoked license. She immediately asked him if he had a job - he said his brother was going to hire him at a pizza shop.(As a driver?) SHE LET HIM GO WITH TIME SERVED AND PROBATION instead of 2 years and alcohol rehab!

  I couldn’t believe it. Of course we know the ethnicities of all involved by my all caps statement above. The second guy (European American) was CLEARLY a present danger to society, his kids, himself. The first guy (African American) was mainly dangerous to himself.  It was so obvious, I looked at the judge with disbelief and she knew exactly what I was getting at. Respectfully of course, without eyeballing her - I didn’t want to go to jail!

  But this goes on all of the time and it’s extremely destructive to African American society. And why aren’t George W’s girls and niece in juvenile? Why isn’t George W in jail?

  Posted by Ingrid on Aug 19, 2004 at 5:17 PM

  Posted by elitarr on August 18, 2004 at 3:13 PM

  not sure what you mean by “laying the incarceration problem at the foot…”.  Does this mean more Bubba and Earl’s in the cell with Tyrone?  Or that justice will be meted out evenly regardless of race, class, creed, etc.?

  My Answer: The sentencing guidelines were initially designed to accomplish just what you state, i.e. sentence everone equally and reduce judicial discretion.  The intent, therefore, was in fact to incarcerate Bubba, Earl, Juan and Tyrone for the same amount of time for the same exact crime.  However, because the guidelines required especially harsh sentencing for crack-cocaine related crimes as opposed to powder cocaine crimes, it soon became clear that the guidelines were NOT fair, and that Tyrone was drawing 10-20 year sentences for dealing crack-cocaine, while Bradly and Kip were drawing 6-10 year sentences for the same amount of powder cocaine.  Therfore, perhaps rightfully so, many blamed the African-American incarceration problem on the guidelines.  I happen to believe that the problem is deep than just a sentencing scheme, therefore, my point was simply this: now that the guidelines are gone, will those of us in the law enforcement community, together with community leaders be able to focus on finding the real cause of the problem???

  Posted by acbloom on Aug 19, 2004 at 5:20 PM

  One last point:  When looking at how sentences are handed out, it is not enough to look at the race of the perpetrator and assume that because he is african-american that he received a harsher sentence.  Rather, a much better insight is acheived if you look at the races of both the accused AND the victim.

  Ingrid points to the sentences handed down against an African-American for minor drug distribution and compares it to a sentences (or lack thereof) handed down to a White man for multiple DUI’s etc.  While on the surface, such sentencing appears unfair, and circumstantially racist, it is worthy at least of consideration, that the victim in the case of the African-American was/is his community, presumably made up of African-Americans as well, while the white man has put his (presumably white) community at risk by driving under the influence.  Irene further points to Ken Lay, Martha Stewart, et. al.  To be sure, their sentences are light given the egregious nature of their crimes (especially Lay).  However, again, their victims are primarily whites.

  Under my scheme therefore, a tough sentence on an African-American is not inherently racist, quite the contrary, it is due justice for the African-American Community.

  That being said, racism does indeed rear its ugly head where the death penalty is concerned.  African-Americans who’s victims are white are almost guaranteed to get the death penalty (in the states that allow it).  Whites who’s victims are white are almost sure to get the death penalty.  However, when the VICTIM is African-American, there is far less liklehood that the death penalty will be applied.  We can each draw our own conclusions about what this means.  However, it seems to me that as a society, we place a higher value on white lives than on african-american lives, as evidenced by our application of the death penalty.  I am not sure what this means in the greater scheme of things.  Food for thought, I guess.

  Posted by acbloom on Aug 19, 2004 at 5:35 PM

  acbloom -
  I too believe the problem is deeper than sentencing guidelines (but short of time today).  Factor in that Bradley and Kip likely have parents, spouses, or cohorts who can dip into deeper pockets for defense lawyers, or cutting deals with judges who view Brad and Kip more apt to “repent” than Juan and Tyrone and hence are treated with more leniency.  Factor in overloaded DA’s reducing sentences, choosing to make deals (to avoid trial) with Brad and Kip Factor over Juan and Tyrone.  Factor in that once released, Mr. Whitemanager is going to hire Brad and Kip over Juan and Tyrone, perhaps reducing white recidivism.  While I hope I’m wrong, I fully expect that hidden institutional racism will find another way to accomplish much the same result, but give think tanks, talking heads, whitewing pols, etc. the ammo to say “We told you it wouldn’t make any difference, nanner nanner.”

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 19, 2004 at 5:36 PM

  Elitarr:  I wish you were wrong…..unfortunately, you make a compelling point.  Wish I knew the answer.

  Posted by acbloom on Aug 19, 2004 at 5:40 PM

  http://www.blackpanther.org/newsalert.htm

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 19, 2004 at 7:26 PM

  Malik,  If you didnt have an Arab sounding name, I would swear by reading your article on reparations that you were Jewish.  What with all your whining and bitching about slavery and what the white man owes you.  I assure you that I will never pay you reparations, as I dont owe you anything but a one way ticket back to Zimbaqwe or Ethiopia or where ever it is that you came from.
  Good Luck in your endeavors.

  Posted by jc on Aug 19, 2004 at 8:29 PM

  No part of the problem, JC, is that their are people in positions of power that have the same feelings as you, but they will act like everything is hunky dorie.  That is why we cannot get over it and things will not change.

  Posted by Westham on Aug 19, 2004 at 8:46 PM

  For all you Afro-centric people out there…Please tell me what it is that you people want. I have wondered about this for a long time.  I mean you have BET, NAACP, Black Congressional Caucaus, Black Beach Week, Black Miss America, Black this and Black that.  If Whites were to ask for this much attention, you people would scream racism from the roof tops.  What gives?  Are you going to complain forever or just until you are the majority.  I can bet when the blacks are in the majority, the whites will pay a dear price.  Whites today who are screaming for “equal rights” and reparations for blacks, will tomorrow be screaming for their lives.  Am I right?  You know I am right.  Payback is going to be hell isnt it.  I wont be around when this occurs, but wish I could be.  It would be fun watching 400 years of revenge come to pass on the stupid whites who want so dearly to be politically correct that they will choose to give away their very lives to help a group of people who cant and wont even help themselves.

  You want to know what Amerika will look like in 50 years….look at Zimbaqwe, the Congo, Ethiopia or even South Africa.

  Posted by jc on Aug 19, 2004 at 8:50 PM

  Everything you mentioned that black people have, white people have it too, they just do not call it white history month or white beach week.

  Posted by Westham on Aug 19, 2004 at 8:53 PM

  Yeah, yeah, what else is new? Blaa, blaa, blaa. Poor black man! Doesen’t have enough sense to do for self. Keeps begging his enemy for justice. Damn! Can we get any stupider than this?

  Posted by Alonzo on Aug 19, 2004 at 10:39 PM

  jc -
  To see what your Amerika will look like in 50 years, you need look no further (nor that long) than American Indian reservations, Appalachia, the Mississippi Delta, parts of the Great Plains, rural American countryside is full of white folks in tar paper shacks.  Plundering a nation’s wealth, exported under the guise of “bringing freedom”, is coming home with a vengeance, right under your nose, a white 3rd world.  And under all white politicians (particularly republican CICs in office 24 years of the last 36).

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 20, 2004 at 12:13 AM

  Such hatred…..beware of anyone that spells America with a “K”.  Anyone for discussing the problem of African-American incarceration?

  Posted by acbloom on Aug 20, 2004 at 12:30 AM

  I am one of jc’s traitorous “whites who advocate equal rights (and not just for Af/Am’s, either), reparations, etc.” Perhaps jc should take some time to hammer out for his/her self exactly what it SHOULD take for a person to qualify for first, second, and third class citizenship. Ideally, if you made the rules. Then, with an open mind- Are these requirements reasonable? Fair? Just? If so, where do you fit in? In your imaginary society, do class distintion fall along color lines? Ethnic/cultural ones? If so, is that a coincidince, or did you design your standards with that in mind? Just an excercise to help you organize and understand your own priorities. If you’re honest with yourself, you might learn something. Try it. You don’t have to tell anybody, and all you have to lose are groundless convictions.

  Posted by KT on Aug 20, 2004 at 8:32 AM

  KT,
  First of all, I bet you are a female and a Christian of sorts.  This is usually the type of individual that condones the giving away of the fruit of the industrious many to satisfy the desires of the whining few (ie reparationists).  I have met people like you and they simply amaze me with their stupidy and total lack of understanding about what actually happens when different races mix. If you live long enough to make you a minority in Amerika, you and/or your children will pay the price for your actions; at the hands of the very people you profess to help.  It has happened many times in history and will happen again in the future.  Remember blood is always thicker than water. Even God knew that diversity didnt work..look at what he did to the people who were building the Tower of Babel.
  Ethnic pride seems to exist in all races except the Caucasian race.  I dont understand this, unless they are on a guilt trip from all the media bombardment that has trashed Caucasians and their ideals for the past 50 years.
  For your information, the “white” race is finished.  We will be in a minority status by 2050 and I feel sure we will pay dearly for our shortcomings.  As I stated above, I will not be here, but our children will have to deal with and suffer the consequences of our actions. 
  However, after careful thought about the fellings of what seems to be the majority of “whites” in America, maybe they should be a minority and eventually be replaced, as most of them are not worth the trouble anyway. I dont think most “white” Americans want to survive.  They have been blasted with guilt for decades and do not have any ethic pride left.

  By the way KT, I have never advocated taking rights away from anyone.  I just think that races should be separarted, for their own good.  Some races just cant compete with others and this is what is causing all the trouble today. Sadly, no one will admit it.
  Nuff said

  Posted by jc on Aug 20, 2004 at 2:36 PM

  I want to first say I took the time to read everyone’s comments and enjoyed eached one. 
  *stands on soapbox*
  From the beginning of time the “White Man” has had an amazing complex.  This complex was created when they saw the great wonders everyone but them were creating.  They were ashamed, a bunch of losers. 
  But they had a brilliant idea, “perhaps we can learn from them” and so they did.  And learning from the non-whites turned into stealing and destroying the evidence (which is now a common practice).  For example, when the famous and adored Aristotle was exiled from Italy for being an obnoxious nuisance, he went to Egypt where he was taught the knowledge of the Egyptians.  And when he returned to Italy he shared this knowledge as his own and completely forgot and denied the Egyptians the rewards and benefits of their great findings.  Alexander the Great, the man worshipped for his great skill as a fighter and adored for his thirst for knowledge torched an Egyptian library after he learned everything he wanted to learn.  And so the great pattern of seek and destroy begins. 
  This pattern will never stop and they don’t want it to.  And why would they?  This method has brought them from crawling around in caves to ruling nations (even though Whites only make up 7% of the world’s population, no, I’m not joking.  THEY are the minority).  If the method works, why try to improve on it? 
  If it was so easy for them to steal from Egyptians, destroy a library filled with priceless knowledge why wouldn’t it be easy to steal the futures of non-whites and destroy their lives?  We see how easy it is for one family to steal the election and destroy the country, why wouldn’t it be easier for it to happen collectively?? 
  So now that we see what they’re capable of doing, why not take that knowledge and use it?  Yes, of course we are under a serious disadvantage to whites.  By golly, we’re worse off than EVERYONE else in the country.  There are more whites on welfare in this country than blacks but they will never let you see that.  They have invested time, millions upon millions of dollars and energy trying to keep non-whites down but it’s amazing how everyone found a way to succeed but us.  Now I’m not saying EVERY black person hasn’t succeeded but the numbers are embarrassing compared to say… the Chinese?  Hey, at least the other races stick together.
  I find it disturbing to see blacks succeed in life and completely turn their backs on the communities and people that helped them get there.  Yes, we are a disadvantage, whites have taken their money out of inner city public schools and black communities and put it elsewhere.  I find it humorous how they continue to take money out of our communities (i.e. shopping centers, grocery stores, clothing stores) even though we’ve proven that no matter what, we’d buy from them even if they declare they don’t want your support.  Tommy Hilfiger.  Thank you.  But instead of complaining about how bad the neighborhood’s gotten as you lock your glove-compartment and activate the alarm on your brand new Jag how about giving back to the community?  Instead of complaining about the boys playing in the middle of the street or standing on the corner or not going to school how about taking the time out of your ever-so-busy schedule to give back to the community?  Volunteer?  And even if you don’t want to take the precious time out to volunteer how about donating a couple hundred dollars to a school (notice I didn’t say schools), after school programs, youth programs, outreach programs at churchs, where you know your money will be going towards a good thing… not putting 20-inch rims on your car. 
  Even though white people have built this country on the backs of others and have worked to keep others down, they have never failed to give back to their communities, take someone along when they succeed or help their own succeed.  It’s amazing to see how many black people hit it big and are quick to run away from the people and community that helped them.  Why is that?  Why do we have the “I hit it big—good luck to you” mentality?  No one can say the say “the system made me think that.”  This isn’t a communist country (insert smart comment here).  We are too quick to leave people behind.  And anyone who thinks that whites are just going to suddenly (or eventually) say, “Oh, geez, we’ve wronged you people for so long—here, let me help you succeed” are foolish for thinking so.  They aren’t going to help us not unless there was fame and/or fortune involved.  And the strange thing about that is…... we won’t help each other unless there’s fame and/or fortune involved… wow, doesn’t this look a little familiar?  Are we completely incapable of helping each other simply because we want to see our people succeed?  Even if there isn’t a profit in it for us? 
  If you think volunteering won’t help someone, why not try to teach someone the value and rewards of hard work?  How long does that take if you want to be mediocre about it?  What?  Two minutes?  All you have to say is, “Yep, because I worked hard and stayed committed I got enough money to buy a big house and this Jag.”  Okay, so that’s about five seconds.  But you catch my drift. 
  Marc, you brought up a good point about how no one would have the gull to say “Get over it” to the Jews.  But you know why?  THE JEWS NEVER USED THE HOLOCAUST AS AN EXCUSE TO FAIL.  I’d bet anyone and everyone that they’ve never heard a poor Jew say “I failed because of what the Germans did to my people” because they know there is no excuse for failure. 
  As soon as you begin to make lame excuses for failure you clear your own path for the inability to succeed. 
  Black people use the “The White Man did this to me” excuse to the point where we’re beating a very, very dead horse.  NO ONE CARES and it isn’t an excuse to give up and settle for mediocrity.  No one wants to hear about what the White Man did.  Blaming the “White Man” is nothing short of a hindrance to success for blacks more than anything.  Yes, the “White Man” did us wrong, yes we are at a disadvantage to whites but there have been plenty of blacks who’ve succeeded regardless (and I’m not talking about in the entertainment industry either). 
  Yes, the system has been created to keep the black man down but that gives us no reason to not try anyway.  There have been plenty of blacks who have been in prison and made something of themselves regardless (Judge Mathis). 
  Yes, the White Man wants to keep us under thumb (or the Invisible Hand) but knowing this we should want to work harder to prove to ourselves that we can get out from under that.  Anyone who knows this and doesn’t take advantage of this knowledge is foolish.  Nothing is ever going to be given to us no matter who we are and we’re going to have to work for it harder than others.  There are no shortcuts and if you think you’re going to rise to the top that way, your “success” will be very short and the fall will be a very long and hard one.  The system is created so that if we get even one strike against us it’ll be hard to bounce back so knowing that why not try a ligitimate way to succeed? 
  Yes, jobs are hard to find but I’m sure that if you try to get a job at a black owned-and-operated company your effort will be admired and they’ll probably try to make accomodations for you and if not, try somewhere else. 
  Educate yourself and use your knowledge to your advantage.  Find something you have a passion for and stay committed to it.  Don’t try to find a cheap way to succeed, it won’t last long.  And don’t forget to help someone find their way when you make it. 
  *steps off of soapbox*
  Thank you.

  Posted by Jessica on Aug 20, 2004 at 2:44 PM

  I’ve read lots of posts on structural inequality and the U.S.‘s prison regime. What I haven’t read is the influence of prison-guard unions on prison building. In California, when the Three Strikes initiative was on the table, prison guards were in the forefront of the movement. They had a vested interest in seeing more punitive sentences because that would result in a prison boom. It’s a sad story. 

  As for the structural inequality arguments, I agree with them. But they’re way too simplistic. I live in Texas, and if you know anything about prisons in this state, you know that small towns devastated by military base closings or what have you, are eager for prisons. They bring jobs. It’s that simple.

  Also, as for personal responsibility, I agree that it’s been co-opted by the right and is an excuse to ignore tougher problems. But there’s something to be said for it. The problems with saying that we have structural problems is that we may end up sliding down that victimization slope.

  Posted by TJR on Aug 20, 2004 at 3:40 PM

  Jessica -
  I agree somewhat with points in your post, the seek and destroy for example.  Will point out that many Blacks do give back to the community, even Cosby has been more than generous with funds.  However, disagree that the Jews have not used the Holocaust.  It’s the longest never ending guilt trip in history, to the tune of 1.7 trillion since 1973 to Israel.  And that’s just the open up front costs.  I’ve my opinion as to why it’s not seen as welfare, and we do have those noble slogans for befriending the “only democracy” in the ME.  Also, Judge Mathis was not in prison.  He was a troubled juvenile HS dropout, ordered to get his GED to avoid jail time, which he did, and the rest is history.  Some days I believe the white man doesn’t want to “keep us under his thumb” per se, but simply centuries of ignorance, habit, and needing an underclass the keep the poor white loser class feeling they’re better than something or somebody. 

  TJR -
  Excellent point regarding prison expansion.  Decades ago when talk of where to build prisons, in my small town area the attitude was “not in my backyard.”  Four years ago a new state prison was proposed and every podunk town around begged and bid for it.  Jobs.  The prison is not filled to capacity but they’re working on that too.

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 20, 2004 at 3:50 PM

  This post is my answer to the many emails I have received. 

  Wow, no offense people, but these posts on here only confirm that racial tension is alive and well.  There is a lot of hate, distrust, and serious lack of agreement on anything.  I still stand by what I said earlier.  It is obvious to me that African American men have systematically been stripped of opportunities that white men take for granted and don’t even think about or consider because they just seems to be “givens”.

  As a woman and the sole provider of my children, I can relate first hand to what it is like to deal with competition of the white male and the system.  Certainly this particular parallel is different because I’m white, yet I believe very similar in final analysis on this point.  The average woman with a college degree makes less than the average man that is a high school drop out.  So, regardless of how strange it may sound, there are some correlations to me.  Many white men, and many white woman who don’t have the burden of being the only bread winner of a family, don’t have any reason to ever even ponder or acknowledge that opportunities for everyone are not created equal and how that affects a person’s entire existence.  Not only does this problem affect the financial bottom line in a household, it affects everything, education, opportunity, and every other variable that income affects. 

  Additionally, many black men grow up without fathers. I believe this is not due to a character flaw in blacks, but the human condition of walking away from that which you feel you are not going to be able to do well or effectively.  If you are a person who will probably never make more than minimum wage or a little more, or inherit anything, you are not going to feel like a red hot bread winner or husband.  Also, this problem is also fed by lack of role-models in a cyclical fashion.  Weirdly, up until recently, and still I’m guessing, woman with children were better off financially on Welfare, with no man, than struggling along with a man with menial income.

  Talk about emasculating.  These individuals are emasculated in the work arena, as well as in the husband and father arena.  While more opportunities are out there for blacks, they are still as a group improvised, and all that that entails, uneducated, and discriminated against.  Unfortunately, I would say some of this discrimination is understandable.  A person only has to look at a black man and know that he has probably come from a poor background, grew up without quality male role models, has had an inferior education, and more likely than a white man affiliates with a group who has a known high level of criminal activity. (More cyclical problem generating) 

  I don’t care what some of you people think, living on the edge like this effects people.  Large groups, growing up in generations of people affected this way, are going to generate serious movements of behaviors.  You can call me a bleeding heart or stupid if you like.  But to blame blacks as having something inexplicably wrong with them is a waste of time.  I believe I am right about the source of this problem.  These black men are too proud and far too masculine to accept this type of reality that surrounds them.  They will fight it in everyway they can, good or bad, acceptable or not.  Rules for this group are always hazy at best, anyway.  Like the black panther they identify with, they are poised and ready to take part in the feast of life weather invited or not.  Not being afraid to break the rules of society is instilled in them as a form of psychological necessity and display of masculine strength.  Even the white community has seen and understood the moral of the Rosa Parks story. 

  I am not saying any behaviors should thus be accepted. Obviously criminal activity and violence can never be tolerated.  However, changes in laws and administrative policy need to be ever vigilant to empowering black men, as well as promoting the equality of all people.  It is more important to American that the black community is helped in this way than anything we do abroad.  The beginning would be a real war on poverty that is not just a sideline government project, but an all encompassing goal of the culture.

  Posted by Leslie on Aug 20, 2004 at 11:09 PM

  I appreciate the opinions on this topic and have one more comment.  I believe, not just for Blacks but society in general, that women have to look at the role they play in the problems we face.  Perhaps, according to an angry email I received from the NBPP, I am an “old head.”  But in my “youth”, most mothers, wives, girlfriends, grandmothers, sisters, would not have permitted behaviors which are acceptable today from the males in their lives.  Regardless of age, race, or social class the breakdown in proper respect for self and others is everywhere.  Much is lost in not teaching children how to constructively handle anger, frustration. Hope often has been replaced with indifference.  Cultural pride too often expressed with intolerance and revenge.  It’s easier to look for targets to blame rather than struggle against the odds. We’ve fallen into a pattern that solves nothing but keeps the system intact.  And I hold women very accountable in this.

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 21, 2004 at 8:09 AM

  Too bad we can’t go back in time to the year 1619 and change what happened at Jamestown.  Since that is impossible, we all should use our free-will and choose to “get over it.”  If we do not, we only have ourselves to blame.  Life is too short to remain bitter!

  Posted by JF on Aug 21, 2004 at 5:54 PM

  Shove you goddamn “get over it!“s!!!!

  Just keep looking the other way, just keep voting Republican, just keep fucking us all.

  THANKS FOR NOTHING.

  Posted by Windex on Aug 21, 2004 at 7:48 PM

  This is the first time since I started following this convo. that I’ve disagreed w/elitarr.  Perhaps your family was an exception, but when most of the U.S. of A. was coming up, families and communities held together not because women didn’t tolerate bs, but because women picked up the pieces of family and community out of enlightened self-interest. My fam. pretends like we used to be matriarchial, too. We weren’t. Women casn own property, business, and other wealth now. If the family just sucks, we can extricate ourselves from it where we couldn’t before. I expect that nightmarish, abusive, disatrous homes back in the day produced a statistically comparable percentage of dangerous sociopaths as low-income, single-parent households produce currently. The data is better now. Mama and them did regulate the family to an extent, but that’s because they always forgave and accepted the fallout. Not because they wouldn’t spring you from jail, but because you had to explain yourself for the next four family dinners afterword.  Where is the family now? All of the men are locked up, sick, or dead. All the women, many with advanced degrees, are caring for our elderly, our sick, and two and a half generations of fatherless and virtually motherless children. Case is, the older generation isn’t so much meaner, but more resiliant.

  Posted by KT on Aug 22, 2004 at 7:58 AM

  KT -
  I may have grown up differently.  The women would not have sprung anyone from jail, but would have taken them in after they were released, as long as they made an attempt to turn things around.  Back then it was a mark of dishonor, not the badge of manhood some see it as today.  Back then it would break mama’s heart, today mama is as likely doing time. 

  I also reference my childhood experience of neighbors making sure children toed the line.  Today, if a neighbor were to chastise a child or march him home by the scruff of his neck to inform mother of misbehavior, it’s more likely to result in assault or lawsuit or neighborhood feud.  My family was never “matriarchial.”  I always felt my parents faced one another on equal footing and they made decisions jointly most of the time. 

  Also, teachers had more authority to discipline, and if I or my brother had behavior problems in school the punishment at home would be much worse.  Often today, if there’s a problem at school, it’s the mother who gets in the teacher’s face b/c Johnny can do no wrong.  Another behavior I find different is sexually, a “one night stand” was a prostitute or the “town tramp” in my day.  Now it’s considered acceptable social mating behavior.  The women’s movement began with great intentions, but someone somewhere interpreted the movement as simply screw anybody anywhere anytime and you’re liberated.  Back when, there may have been more “shotgun” weddings to induce responsibility but that seems more workable than today’s leap frogging dads and mamas who need DNA to pinpoint who the daddy is.  I agree there were disastrous homes “back in the day” but not to the extent I see today.

  I don’t think the older generation “meaner” either, simply held themselves and those near them to a higher code of conduct as that was a reflection of the family and family was the center of life.  I do think women lost the passion for home and hearth and that if women were more attentive in their roles as mothers, wives, etc.  it would make a difference.  I have a career and raised 5 productive successful adults so work and family can be done, but it takes dedication and sacrifice (and resilience).  (And there were times I thought it would never end, and now seems it went to quickly.)

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 22, 2004 at 9:51 AM

  Arguing on these blogs is like running in the Special Olympics - even if you win you are still retarded

  Posted by Stumpy on Aug 23, 2004 at 4:26 PM

  elitarr-
    Thank you for your response to my note. I believe we basically agree on our impressions of American society, then and now. Where we differ seems to be the sociological explanations behind. Having said that, your points are valid. It’s a huge pet peeve of mine to see parents stick up for their kids when they act out or perform poorly in school. Parents really should feel that their responsibility to the child is to provide tools to succeed in life, not just protection from all who would disagree with of correct the child. Social, and intellectual development suffer when you just insulate from advesity. A child benefits from correction by neighbors, relatives, and good god, teachers! Lazy parenting is rampant and it’s extremely detrimental to society, especially those elements thereof whose toolbox of life skills is their primary means to success.
        Thank you for you insightful conversation.
                  -KT

  Posted by KT on Aug 23, 2004 at 5:20 PM

  I have always been totally opposed to three strikes laws, the whole drug war, mandatory minimums, the death penalty and segregation
  enforced by law. Slavery was a real contradiction
  of our professed libertarian ideals and I’m glad
  it was abolished a century and a half ago.
  Legal segregation should never have existed but
  it has now been long abolished. What hasn’t been
  abolished and is mushrooming out of control is
  black crime and general black socio-pathology.
  As part of a white couple living in a crime-ridden
  black area of Oakland I make no apologies for
  strong criticism of the degenerate black mo-fo
  culture and its degenerate apologists, both white
  and black. It’s time for blacks to get off their
  “I’m feeling so sorry for myself and it’s all
  whitey’s fault” BS line and start cleaning up your
  own stinking neighborhoodlums.As a white person
  whose ancestors came over in the 1850s to escape the potato famine in Ireland, I don’t owe black people SQUAT.
  Neither does my Jewish wife, who once spent a month in jail in Mississipi in 1965 for doing
  civil rights work. There are many poor people,
  black and otherwise, who do not commit crimes.
  I have NO sympathy for the extremely large and
  utterly revolting black criminal class. Take your
  Marcusian fantasies about lumpen revolution and
  stick them up Bob Avakian’s behind.
  Ingrid, am I coming loud and clear ?
  There’s much more I can include point by point rebuttals to the reparations scam artists, it’s
  just another attempted black welfare ripoff.
  If we total up a bill for all the black crime
  and government handouts over just the last 50
  years it would dwarf any reparations claims.
  As far my Left credentials go, I’ve written for
  Z, the old Commie National Guardian, The Progressive, the Washington Post, East Bay Express and Anderson Valley Advertiser.
  If the Left doesn’t wise up PRONTO on the issue
  of black crime, it will continue to lose elections for the next 40 years.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 23, 2004 at 5:48 PM

  So, how long have you been Grand Wizard of the Klan, Michael Hardesty?

  Posted by Windex on Aug 23, 2004 at 6:41 PM

  Windex, your stupidity is predictable.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 23, 2004 at 6:44 PM

  Mr. Hardesty-
  Why do you continue to live in a “crime-ridden black area of Oakland?”  It might help to lift yourself out of such a “neighborhoodlum.”  It can be done.  I’ve white friends also who are descended from Irish potato farmers and they’ve done extremely well economically and socially.  (Although they have family members in prison for meth, they are decent white people themselves.)  I too have written for one of the papers you name, but agree with Swinton, about journalists being intellectual prostitutes and such.

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 23, 2004 at 7:33 PM

  And your racism is obvious, no matter how you try to sugar-coat it.
  Because you’ve written for these publications it gives you license to speak like this? By the way, the writings you refer to are letters to the editor. I know you are an ex-Republican.
  I’m guessing you’re probably pro racial-profiling and anti-Affirmative Action.

  I’ve heard this tired, weak argument so many times and it sickens me to think there are still people with these attitudes, even though they’re liberal. That’s conter-productive.

  You want something prdictable, here it is: attidues like this will only worsen the situation. Your remarks “extremely large and black criminal class” alone tells us you feel black people tend to be criminals. Do you think Mexicans are all here to steal our jobs?

  I may be stupid at times—and this isn’t one of them, but I’m not a racist.

  Posted by Windex on Aug 23, 2004 at 7:56 PM

  You really are stupid, Windex ,or whatever your real name is. When I wrote for Z five times they
  were published articles and book reviews.
  Ergo for The Guardian, The Progressive, a lengthy
  piece for The Sunday Washington Post Editorial
  Outlook section on the Pacifica Foundation, a
  dozen full length articles or essays for the AVA,
  two journalistic pieces for the Express, etc.
  Letters I’ve had published in the dozens but these were articles I was referring to.
  Alas, in your illiterate screed you do come off
  as quite stupid and racist too. That you would
  defend black anti-social behavior precisely these
  crimes are committed by black people is racist
  in and of itself.
  In response to the elitarr a-hole, we bought that
  house because that is what we could afford at the
  time. Would you suggest that a black family similarly harassed in a white neighborhood should
  just move ? No, well then your a racist. PERIOD.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 23, 2004 at 9:31 PM

  Sounds like you’re a bit bitter, Michael Hardesty.
  And to accuse ME of being racist—you’ve got to be kidding.
  Don’t give me that stuff about having a Jewish wife makes you not a racist.

  I’ve read the rants you’ve passed off as letters to the editor. You come off pretty bitter there, too.

  I am defending black anti-social behaviour? You have got to be kidding me. I’m not the one who made the racist comments and who complains about the part of the country he lives in. To even make the comments you made, “degenerate black mo-fo
  culture and its degenerate apologists”. You’re just looking at race and not issue. That’s racist.

  You haven’t proven your points and can’t answer to the ones I raise so you call me stupid.

  Oh, childish, bitter little man.

  Posted by Windex on Aug 24, 2004 at 3:37 AM

  Lol.  First time I’ve been called an asshole simply for telling someone to rise above their lot in life.  Not so easy getting out of the ‘hood’ is it Mr. H.  Have you and your wife considered taking Sharon up on his incentives to return to Israel?  He’s ethnically clearing land for Jewish settlements. (But possibly another bad real estate investment for you.)

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 24, 2004 at 8:24 AM

  Frankly, anyone who would hide behind pseudonyms
  is not worth reading. You haven’t had any intelligent rebuttal to the points that I made.
  Proving the points would be the project of a
  sizable book, and it’s already been done, see
  Jared Taylor’s Paved With Good Intentions. There
  is no need to reinvent the wheel here. Obviously
  race is an issue here. You can’t blame everything
  on culture, though the predominant Mo-Fo culture
  of the past 60 years in the black community is
  a degenerate culture. You haven’t raised any
  points to answer, “Windex.” Nor did I claim one
  couldn’t be racist if they were Jewish. Where
  in your demented mind did you come up with that
  nonsequitur ? I was giving my wife’s history as
  a former civil rights activist. I personally
  have always opposed civil rights as a guise to
  set up a police state under the pretense of
  liberty as Goldwater correctly stated in 1964
  and LBJ in 1948. It’s just the other side of
  the coin from slavery and forced Jim Crow laws.
  Also where did you get the idea one can’t be
  critical of their community ???!!! This sounds
  like a rightwinger shouting Love it or Leave it.
  Moronic. After living in DC half my life and
  Oakland-Berkeley the other half I have every
  right to loudly complain about black criminality.
  It will nice to move to an area with fewer blacks.
  Now for the “elitarr” A-hole, you have no idea of
  my station in life. I have worked in corporate
  finance for many years and have often made a
  substantial amount of money. Our house has risen
  in value between three and four times, we bought
  it for 126 in 97 and could sell it today for 350-
  400K. If we fixed up a few things probably much
  more than that. We simply did not see the point of
  paying the usual outrageous prices for Bay Area
  real estate since when we sell and leave Mudville
  we’ll relocate to a different area with better
  people and better value for your money. Real
  estate in the Bay Area is never a bad investment.
  Nor from what I hear in Israel either. The market
  around Jerusalem is going through the roof.
  Glad you regularly read my letters, they are
  witty and to the point as you would know if you
  have seen the recent ones published in the Bay
  Guardian, the East Bay Express and the Berkeley
  Daily Planet. Nothing “bitter” about them, not
  that bitter is necessarily bad. It would be hard
  to top the bitterness of the letters published
  here by various black racists and their white
  liberal apologists. So far, you two clowns,
  elitarr and windex are batting zero.
  All you can do is psychobabble instead of having
  a reasonable argument.
  I totally stand by my remarks as regards a very large proportion (not all) of the black population in the US. Yes, I am totally opposed to affirmative discrimination and if I was working airport security I’d be profiling Saudis, not Swedes.
  Yes, large scale illegal immigration is very
  depressing to wages and what other country allows
  its borders to be overrun like the US ? If every
  country agrees to abolish borders and have total
  laissez-faire then I can sign on to it.
  Another reason I’m returning to libertarian-
  Objectivism. The Left is a bunch of losers.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 24, 2004 at 2:47 PM

  Frankly ...yawn.  Your rant is the usual misplaced outraged whitewing whining by those who haven’t figured out why we have illegal immigration or why the social decay of his own race and puts “mudville” in the crosshairs as usual.  You’ve never been anything but the tirading wannabee.  Keep singing the Po’me NeoCon Follower Blues.

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 24, 2004 at 3:09 PM

  Well, you can’t respond to specifics and you
  have to resort to anti-white racism and your
  own projections of your failed life.
  You can’t even have the guts to sign your own
  real name. There has been a social decay in the
  country,I agree. One of the causes is the civil
  rights farce and fraud. The reason we have so
  much illegal immigration is failure to control
  our borders and enforce our laws plus our insane
  interventionist foreign policy of backing every
  tyranny in Latin America and elsewhere.
  First time I’ve ever been called a neocon !

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 24, 2004 at 3:21 PM

  How does using my “real name” = “guts?”  Nevermind.  Ah do believe Mr. Hardesty you’re a troll.

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 24, 2004 at 3:31 PM

  I am sure you are an expert on “trolls” whatever
  they are.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 24, 2004 at 3:33 PM

  Does this sound familiar?  “No need to point to what might be left inside of Mr. Michael Hardesty. He has made clear to the world what is left inside of him: VIOLENCE, and HATRED. This old boy is a ticking time bomb.”  Signed Ted.

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 24, 2004 at 3:45 PM

  Are you the psycho Ted from the Nathaniel Branden
  old website of 2 1/2 years ago ???????
  I stand by all my comments there too.
  Ted was clearly projecting in the above comments.
  He was a total ultra-rightist lunatic as anyone
  can see from perusing his threads.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 24, 2004 at 4:39 PM

  I have no idea who Ted is.  Someone simply told me you were banned from the OaklandNews blog and a comment or two. I’m a biracial female.

  Posted by elita rr on Aug 24, 2004 at 4:47 PM

  Let’s wrap this up. Jeannette Sherwin frequently
  banned people she had political disagreements
  from her website. She was a pretty obnoxious
  person, and frankly pretty racist herself.
  She had a public housing project in back of her
  and she was the biggest NIMBY in Oakland.
  I was more involved in the Greens and she was
  a total Demo Party hack. She passed away in
  January. I agreed with her on some things about
  Oakland politics though.
  Ok, good luck to you.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 24, 2004 at 4:58 PM

  Again with the name-calling, “Michael Hardesty”.

  Sure are bitter. And still a racist.

  Just call me “Mo Fo”. “Windex” seems to piss you off for some reason.

  If you look at the Republican, conservative agenda, you agree with all their issues on the African-American race.

  A troll is someone who roams forums, usually contrary to their beliefs, and posts messages designed to attract predictable responses or flames, in an effort to make themselves look intillegent to the rest of the group.

  The group that pretty much doesn’t agree with you. It isn’t working.

  Posted by "Windex" on Aug 24, 2004 at 8:01 PM

  Blame this, blame that.  On and on it goes.  The FACT is a black is 57 times more likely to commit a violent crime toward a white that otherwise. The FACT is since the so called “Civil Rights Act blacks have committed 170 million violent crimes against whites.  If whites raped, stabbed, robbed and murdered blacks at the same rate that blacks do whites, we would run out of black people in just a month or two. In 1991 US Dept of Justice statistics reported that for every 100 rapes committed by Whites against blacks, blacks committed 20,294 rapes against Whites.  The media does not report the race of the criminal so that Whites will not know what’s going on. And there’s more. Almost a million White Americans were murdered, stabbed, robbed, or raped in 1992 by blacks. 
  This is more than ridiculous. This is war.  When the truth of the matter is honestly considered we can come to no other conclusion.

  Our enemies know that to force two different races together, (..and force us they did), creates friction and strife.  Then when this happens our enemies offer the solutions to this strife and expect us to pay for problems they created.  Pretty neat.  Keeps us terrified and under control. It also gives the opportunity to expand the police state.

  Hey, what’s new?

  Posted by Plato on Aug 24, 2004 at 8:48 PM

  Well said Plato.  The South Africans had it right.  Since we betrayed their right to their own nation whites are being slaughtered.  Land stolen from them and the fools responsible are eating the seed corn. Now Americans will have to feed the disgusting animals.

  Separation is the answer.  Every great nation in history started with a single race pooling resources and progressing as a result.  As time went on and “diversity” became the order of the day,  (nothing new, it’s called the “Balak Plan”), the nations decayed and finally crumbled to dust. A good example is Alexander’s great university experiment.  As usual it failed miserably and Greece fell. 

  As for you Christians out there, your God states very clearly that you are to be separate, “for ye are a peculiar people.”  You are not to give your daughters to their sons or otherwise.  You are not to allow them into your churches nor are you allowed to eat and drink with them. Your Creator knew what he was doing. We have ignored Him and our children are dying at the hands of the “stranger” as a result.

  That makes us guilty of this great criminal disparity in this country.

  Posted by Sandy on Aug 24, 2004 at 9:13 PM

  “Windex” I’m afraid your word salad makes less
  sense than usual, which is already a very low standard.
  I notice that you apparently cannot deal with any
  of the substantive points I make. You do nothing
  but call names starting with your first KKK post.
  I give arguments in addition to characterizing
  (briefly) yourself.
  Plato makes excellent points.
  I’m a left libertarian, not a conservative
  Repug. I disagree with them on three strikes laws,
  the death penalty, mandatory minimums, the drug
  wars, US foreign policy, gay rights, abortion
  and much more. Sorry I don’t fit your stereotype.
  I rarely post on forums, so I’m afraid I don’t fit
  the “troll” label either.
  PS You need to learn to spell as well as think.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 24, 2004 at 9:26 PM

  Hey Windex,

  The modern definition of a racist is a “liberal” losing an argument. 

  You fit that profile perfectly.  It is also becoming obvious the “modern definition” is true.

  Plato, you are correct on those statistics.  It is really a shame it’s all true because the black folks out there who do want to make an honest living are tainted by these facts.  Even Bill Cosby admonished black society for this. 

  As for that day in Jamestown… The colonists in Virginia passed over 100 laws against slavery but to no avail. The king forced in down their throats with guns because he had debts to pay to the jewish bankers.  (The borrower is slave to the lender).  The great merchant fleets that brought the slaves here were also owned by jews.  All through history we find jews at the center of the slave trade.  In the open they decry the institution but in the shadows they profit from it. 

  There are two sides to every story and in reality the so called “white” side has been silenced.  In many cases in history “whites” have been blamed for crimes and injustice when in fact those “whites” were Khazar jews, because in many cases jews appear to be white.  Like the Mafia for example.  Hollywood has passed it off that Italians are the Mafia. Lie.  Al Capone, Bugsy Segal, Maier, on and on and on, are all jewish.  The Russian Mafia is all jews. 

  Two sides to every story.  Time to tell yours whitey.

  Posted by Felix on Aug 24, 2004 at 11:31 PM

  Excuse me..

  That definition went: “The modern defintion of a racist is when a liberal is losing an argument.”

  Just was a bit excited there for a moment.  Now I know how “Windex” or “Mo fo” feels twenty four seven.  Poor guy.

  Posted by Felix on Aug 24, 2004 at 11:41 PM

  I need to learn to spell? I think you’ve been smoking something.

  “It will nice to move to an area with fewer blacks.”—from one of your earlier posts.
  You don’t have room to talk when you write like Tarzan.

  I don’t see where any of your arguments, as you call them, ARE really arguments. They’re tirades showing your hatred of the black community, no matter how much you try to disguise it or use personal experiences to justify them. You seem to think that because you live and have lived in black neighborhoods this gives you license to hate the way you do.

  I get the feeling you think you’re a lot smarter than you really are. Using big pretentious words like “nonsequitur” (two words by the way) Look how learned he is, everyone.

  No, I don’t give a shit about any reasons you give me. I’m calling you a racist based on your statements. Get that through what you think is your intelligent skull.
  So your insignificant little scribblings don’t mean a goddamn thing when you refer to an area as the “neighborhoodlum”, and “degenerate black mo-fo culture” you racist.

  Make no apologies, but just admit you’re a racist already.
  Or is that why you’re so bitter? Is my meaning clear or is it a bit recondite?

  Posted by Windex on Aug 25, 2004 at 12:06 AM

  I’m not losing this argument at all, Felix.

  Cosby has been criticized by the black community for his statements.

  MH is a racist, and he’s too angry to admit he’s wrong. None of what he says makes a bit of difference. Read his hateful words.

  Fox News definition is when a liberal is losing an argument, huh?

  1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
  2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

  Scoring points with the real racist, Michael Hardesty, aren’t you.

  Sad.

  Posted by Windex on Aug 25, 2004 at 12:14 AM

  well, this is the first time that i’ve been to this website, and i was very impressed with the first page of comments. people with well thought out opinions expressing themselves clearly, disagreeing respectfully, and actually trying to understand differing viewpoints.
  then the nutjobs show up…........

  Posted by lurkin canuck on Aug 25, 2004 at 1:51 AM

  ONe thing I’ve noticed here is that people like windex ALWAYS ignore the facts and resort to name calling.  Another thing I’ve noticed is the word “racism” ONLY applies to white people.  So much so that the statement, “playing the race card” has become commomplace. 

  To suggest that races are not different is absolute bull.  If we look at societies in general throughout history we find the white, Christian nations building and creating fantastic things.  While the blacks and other colored races of the world still living in grass huts.  A great modern example is the Bahama Islands.  Under British rule they were a thriving, clean, and ordered society.  Since the British left the Bahamas it has been trashed.

  Fact are facts.  Stick to them or be pegged a blithering fool.

  Posted by Lisa on Aug 25, 2004 at 7:06 AM

  Windex is pathetic. I could fill up a whole box
  here just noting his spelling errors. Windex
  can’t refute any points that I’ve made so he
  resorts to his racist shibboleth as if anyone
  cares what an apologist for black crime, black
  racism and black socio-pathology like Windex
  thinks or writes.
  Lisa is right on the mark as is Felix and Plato.
  Windex shows his utter stupidity and anti-intellectualism when he writes that he doesn’t
  give a damn about anyone’s REASONS who disagree
  with him. What an imbecile, what an ignorant ass.
  When you can’t have an intelligent argument over
  someone’s reasons but are forced to shout “racist” you are confessing your intellectual and moral bankruptcy. Windex has
  never given a reason or even attempted the semblance of an argument, he merely shouts his
  inchoate feelings. Oh by the way, nonsequitur
  is one word but then you wouldn’t know that, Windex, since you can’t spell. Were you admitted
  to UCB under affirmative discrimination and do
  you get your news from KPFA (local Commie radio
  station)????? No, I’m not the racist but our black
  neighbors who have committed numerous crimes against us solely because we are white, ARE racists. As far as bitterness goes, you don’t
  sound like any apostle of love, Windex. And I
  notice that you did not comment on the extremely
  bitter letters earlier on this thread from people
  who share your demented views. More of your
  double-standard racism again ????
  Cosnby has only been criticized by black racists
  and their white liberal apologists like yourself
  who do somersaults to avoid dealing with the
  major issue of out-of-control black crime.
  Yes, it will nice to move to a neighborhood
  with no black criminals, I have earned the
  right to say that.
  And, Windex, it has been a pleasure giving a
  bare butt public spanking to your stinky little
  behind.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 25, 2004 at 2:24 PM

  You’re still a racist. And a name-calling hateful one at that.

  Posted by Windex on Aug 25, 2004 at 6:15 PM

  Michael, I’m glad to hear that. It sounds as if you are slowly but surely coming to grips with reality.

  I wonder, though, how long it would have taken for you to adopt these commonsense positions, had you not first been figuratively (and perhaps even literally) beaten over the head with them, through your experience of living in an “Afro-American” neighborhood and being abused by some white harpie in a robe.

  The next step in your enlightenment will come when you acquire the ability to open your mind to non-leftist issues that lie outside your direct personal experience—in other words, issues that affect other people, rather than just you.

  For instance, many times I have asked “liberals” how they feel about gun abolition, and they reply, “I own guns myself, so I certainly don’t want to ban them.”

  But what if they didn’t own guns themselves? Then they’d be okay with a gun ban? As long it only affected other people?

  There’s a gaping chasm between those who worry only about their “own” issues, and those who can look beyond their personal concerns and experience to see the big picture. Bridging that gap requires something called “compassion.” It also requires logic—the ability to put two and two together and make four.

  Richard Poe, responding to Michael Hardesty.

  you peeps are all crazy!

  Posted by stan on Aug 25, 2004 at 6:22 PM

  found some more. Here Michael Hardesty is talking to some jon dude

  Jon,
  Yes, anyone should be able to
  serve or not serve whomever they
  please. I am not a supporter of
  civil rights and never have been.
  Between the nasty Third World drivers
  and the nasty mostly Third World passengers,
  I start thinking in a genocidal vein, sort
  of like Ariel Sharon towards the Palestinians.

  some carolyn chick

  I agree with Walter; if you want people to be receptive to your ideas, you need to see things from their point of view. Posting to a board of people, most of whom admire Rand, that “[s]he urged us to go kiss a dirty smokestack” will not make them inclined to listen to you, and your personal digs at some of the posters about their writing styles and “ignorance” further alienate others. You have some good ideas, and to get them recognized as such you could be more thoughtful about how you express them.

  someone named Imogene

  He probably thinks he is being intelligent, Walter. He has a high I.Q. you know.

  I think he’s just a bitter “might-have-been.”

  And some Ted guy

  I gotta go with Imogene on this one. The more I read, the more I realize that Michael Hardesty-Hardly is, after all, an ignorant, overbearing, loudmouthed, jealous ass with a nasty “preoccupation with philosophy”, who might have been something other than a critic in his life if only he had the nerve and the will to push past his inertia, get off his fat butt - and do something about it. Lol. I think he is both a snoozer and a loozer. He picks on the acheivements of others because he hasn’t got any of his own.

  http://www.nathanielbranden.net/dis/1688.shtml

  huh

  Posted by stan on Aug 25, 2004 at 6:48 PM

  Stan,
  I have always opposed gun control. Real radicals
  as distinguished from liberals do.
  Ted on the Branden Board is a total psycho as you
  will discover if you have the stomach to read all
  his threads. He was a violent (literally)person
  who was an anti-Arab racist and advocated Bush’s
  right to invade Cuba amd everyplace else.
  Eventually the Board was terminated because of
  Ted’s profanity and screaming illogic. He was the
  worst of the Right.
  Windex again calls me a name to protest name calling ! My case rests.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 25, 2004 at 7:38 PM

  Carolyn on the Branden board shortly came around
  to my point of view and got as sick of the Randroids as I was. I knew Rand and was in the
  Objectivist movement many years, I more than
  earned the right to be critical.
  Poe and I actually had some pretty civilized
  exchanges on his board a few years back even
  though he had originally worked for the David
  Horowitz nutcase.
  This is all a little off topic though.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 25, 2004 at 7:43 PM

  Windex, don’t make me have to take your pants and
  panties and give you another awesome ass whipping
  again.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 25, 2004 at 7:45 PM

  I left out the word “down” between “panties” and
  “and” in above communication.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 25, 2004 at 7:48 PM

  People, we need to get back to the topic at hand,
  which is why so many black folks are going to
  prison, mainly because they are committing so
  many crimes. I read that in Baltimore something like 70-80% of all black males between 15 and 40 are either on probation, parole, awaiting trial, in jail or in state prison. I agree the ones charged with drugs, prostitution, gambling, et al, should be released but what about the real crimes, theft, robbery, murder, assault, rape, spousal & child abuse, confidence schemes, etc. ?
  And whose keeping track of the other 20-30% of
  the above category, many of them probably haven’t
  been caught yet. I would request serious writers
  only here, and let’s talk about real solutions if
  possible. Prisons do more harm than good and
  reparations, welfare et al are not the answer.
  “Windex,” I would suggest that you vacate this
  board and go wash your pink panties in private.
  We are all sick of hearing about your personal
  psych problems. I think Blackophilia is now a
  DSM category so just find the appropriate head
  shrinker.
  I invite the intelligent folks here to get involved.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 25, 2004 at 8:59 PM

  You’re still a racist. And a name-calling hateful one at that.

  And I’ve apologized on your behalf to the NAACP.

  Posted by Windex on Aug 25, 2004 at 9:32 PM

  WIndex, you don’t speak for me to anyone and
  being called a “racist” by a racist like yourself
  is like being called a “communist” by a John
  Bircher or an “anti-semite” by a supporter of
  Ariel Sharon.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 25, 2004 at 9:35 PM

  Michael Hardesty, should I just call you Greg Johnson or David Rassmussen.

  There is a very good chance that Michael Hardesty is not Michael Hardesty, and is in fact, Greg Johnson or David Rasmussen. Both of these men posted at one time posted on WeTheLiving, and what Hardesty is saying here, is very similar to what Johnson and Rasmussen said on Atlantis. Much to similar. The same hatred of Ayn Rand, the same anti-Israeli bias, the same defence of the Palestinians. While it could be a coincidence, I doubt it. Noam Chomsky was a favorite of Greg Johnson and seems to be a favorite of Hardesty. Also most of the anti-Israeli material is the same as the material used on Atlantis, and is straight off the David Duke website. The fabrication about Israeli’s using water for their pool’s while Palestinian’s die of thirst, is straight off the David Duke website.

  —Ray Bronski

  More Ray Bronski:

  Thanks for the email Ted and some of the background info. The fact that Hardesty has made anti-black remarks on this list leads me to believe that my contention that Hardesty is Greg Johnson is correct. On Atlantis, Greg Johnson and Rasmussen were rabidly anti-black, all the while defending the Palestinians at every turn. I found this strange due to most support for the Palestinians comes from the left, most specifically the collectivist left.

  you haven’t answered you comment that are “not a supporter of civil right and never have been”.
  Hmmm.

  i see in a lot of your posts you talk about spanking asses. You have a fascination with men’s asses. Is your wife a beard? Are there pent-up homosexual feelings there and you call anyone names who disagrees with you, Greg or David is it today? I see a lot of people have called you “racist, bitter, pompous, self-righteous, arrogant and hateful” could be those gay feelings coming through.

  a freelance writer i see? Can’t find a real job?

  maybe David Duke isn’t such a good influence.

  Posted by stan on Aug 25, 2004 at 10:18 PM

  You’re still a racist. And a name-calling hateful one at that.

  And I’ve apologized on your behalf to the Black National Caucus, this time.

  Posted by Windex on Aug 25, 2004 at 10:20 PM

  Stan,

  “Bronski’s” comments were rebutted at the time
  which you can obviously see if you accessed the
  dormat Branden website. Also I never even knew
  about Duke’s website nor did I post on it nor
  have I ever used any aliases, also as Carolyn
  pointed the story about Israel stealing Palestinian water came from NPR, not Duke.
  Stan, you are a physical coward and a liar,
  if you do what “Bronski” didn’t do and give
  your name & address I will personally sue you
  if you ever circulate that false accusation.
  There is a Stan here in Berkeley who is a well
  known Government agent and agent-provocateur,
  that wouldn’t be you, would it ?
  I posted earlier on this thread that I have never
  supported civil rights which is the other side
  of the coin of slavery and forced segregation.
  Apparently you can’t read any more than you can
  think. I did enjoy whipping (metaphorically)
  the pathetic Windex’s stinky butt. And I enjoy
  doing the same to yours. You are a physical
  coward as well as an intellectual assassin.
  Please spare me your homosexual feelings disguised as homophobia. Oh by the way the
  libertarian Right supports the Palestinians.
  See antiwar.com and lewrockwell.com plus
  the writings of Murray Rothbard.
  Windex, you should apologize to the world,
  you are the product of yo’ mama’s abortion.
  Stan, if that’s your name, give your full
  name & address, but you won’t because you
  are a mama’s boy & coward.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 25, 2004 at 10:48 PM

  oh michael (Greg),

  tch! tch! tch!
  you are so filled with hate. so filled.
  “a product of yo’ mama’s abortion”...wow. i wouldn’t call my worst enemy that. you are showing everyone what a prick you are.

  check out when you search Google and type “Michael Hardesty asshole”

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  ha!

  Posted by stan on Aug 25, 2004 at 11:07 PM

  This is for the intelligent people on the board
  here who have been willing to face up to the reality of black crime, black racism and black sociopathology. Let’s start writing here and
  every other venue that we can get on.
  As we can see we have no real opposition,
  certainly no intelligent, no intellectual opposition.
  Our enemy are pathetic liars, cowards and all around fruits who are at the end of their intellectual tether.
  The Left is dead, braindead, long live the Left !
  Our opponents can’t come up with any intelligent
  arguments, they have the mentality and the IQ
  of ghetto thugs plus an unusual degree of both
  intellectual and personal cowardice.
  So if any intelligent people wish to join as
  some dead earlier I would welcome them.
  Dialoguing with assholes however is a waste
  of time.
  Now you can see why Bush will be reelected
  this fall.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 25, 2004 at 11:10 PM

  You’re still a racist. And a name-calling hateful one at that.

  And I’ve apologized on your behalf to Tavis Smiley.

  Posted by Windex on Aug 25, 2004 at 11:16 PM

  Stan, as I said you are a physical coward and
  intellectual moron. If you want to give your full
  name and address I’d be happy to sue you.
  If not, fuck off.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 25, 2004 at 11:18 PM

  “Windex” please go change your pink panties,
  the smell is becoming intolerable.
  If you have nothing intelligent to say, fuck off.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 25, 2004 at 11:20 PM

  Plato, are your stats yesterday from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports ?

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 25, 2004 at 11:21 PM

  You’re still a racist. And a name-calling hateful one at that.

  And I’ve apologized on your behalf to the African American Fund, formerly known as the UNCF.

  Wanna see the e-mails?

  Posted by Windex on Aug 25, 2004 at 11:27 PM

  Ooh, Michael is upset—notice how he changes the subject from men’s asses to pink panties.

  more proof Hardesty is a name calling bully:

  from Oakland News:
  Stop it.
  1) The argument between the KIJE Project and Michael Hardesty doesn’t appear in OaklandNews,so don’t fight about it here.
  please.
  2) Michael, you’re the one doing the name-calling. We reserve name-calling rights for politicians and bureaucrats within Oakland, not for fellow readers of OaklandNews.
  3) Also Michael, thanks for your good wishes and apology—this might be a first.
  4) I like Julie Conger, too.

  Posted by: Jeannette Sherwin on January 29, 2003 06:39 PM

  so your cat died, so what do you do? You want sue. sue, sue, sue. get over it. you a bully. Gutzlaizer is a great guy. U r a pompous ass.

  Posted by stan on Aug 25, 2004 at 11:41 PM

  OaklandNews, 9/10/03

  Michael Hardesty writes

  “I voted
  against 187 but am conflicted about it when I see Beaner politicos like
  Iggy and Busta trying to turn us into Mexifornia. I was wrong to vote
  against term limits and I salute the GOP for putting them, we need them
  at the Federal level too. Karl Rove has nothing to do with the recall,
  which is a very democratic procedure, we should have more often.”

  “BEANER”?!!
  “Mexifornia”??!!

  Posted by stan on Aug 26, 2004 at 1:20 AM

  Gutlaizer is a bad vet and has many dissatisfied
  former customers, the cat or cats didn’t die,
  he killed them through his medical malpratice.
  That’s why I hired an attorney, that’s why other
  former clients of his are in the process of hiring
  attorneys. Broadway should be closed down for good
  and Jeannette Sherwin stated things about Gutlaizer that were far harsher than merely killing cats,she claimed to have had a very bad experience with Arnie Smegna Breath. I wasn’t able to verify her stories but I will be writing about my experiences with the ugly little rodent faced cretin. Jeannette also totally changed her
  mind about the psycho “judge” Julie Conger as
  you discovered when you read further down the
  thread.You are a coward and sociopath, “Stan.”
  That you have to hide behind a pseudonym, I bet
  you probably are the malpractitioner Arnie Gutlaizer himself ! Gutlesslaizer used to hide
  behind pseudonyms when he attacked me on another
  board for exposing his malpractice but I discovered it was him when I saw his lying response to a state agency and realized it was
  the same mentality of the lowlife that penned
  the ad hominem attacks on craigslist.
  I’d be happy to tell you this to your ugly little
  face, Arnie or “Stan” or whatever pseudonym you
  are using today.
  Oh, yes, I am delighted that BustaBeaner got his
  ass whppied in the election.
  Now back to the purpose of this thread, black
  crime.
  Jeanette

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 2:23 PM

  “Windex” I “wanna” (god but you are an illiterate !)see the emails because it is
  a crime to impersonate another person and
  I can track down your identity from the emails.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 2:26 PM

  Now that I have dispensed with the clowns, back
  to the topic at hand.
  Jared Taylor has written an excellent book totally
  exposing the failure of civil rights, integration,
  affirmative action and the black establishment
  and,unfortunately, way too much (not all) of the
  black community, titled “Paved With Good Intentions” and my only caveat is with the title.
  I don’t think these people ever had anything approaching good intentions. Their goal from the
  beginning was to set up a Communist-National
  Socialist (Nazi)police state. Taylor documents
  the incredible black crime, the illegitimacy rate,
  the social disease statistics, the narcotics
  addiction rate, the child & spousal abuse, the
  failure of bussing, the phony cries of police
  brutality & racial discrimination, the actual
  costs of black sociopathology, the roots of
  slavery (blacks selling other blacks), the total
  lack of progress in African culture before the
  whites came, the low IQ statistics, the black
  school dropout rate, the black on white crime
  which is a hundred times more than vice-versa,
  the failure of all New Deal, Fair Deal, New
  Frontier and Great Society programs to help
  the criminal lumpen underclass and the flagrant
  pathology and criminality of much (not all) of
  the black middle class. Taylor’s American Renaissance website is a must for all who wish
  to be well informed about our longest, greatest
  and ongoing domestic crisis. I can’t recommend
  this book highly enough. I haven’t read The
  Bell Curve but people who have told me it has
  never been refuted or even seriously critiqued.
  I now kind of wonder why I was planning to vote
  for Kerry. Maybe Bush, as bad as he is, will
  finish off the Left with another term.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 2:45 PM

  You’re still a racist. And a name-calling hateful one at that.

  And I’ve apologized on your behalf to Danny Glover. And all clowns world-wide.

  Posted by "Windex" on Aug 26, 2004 at 3:01 PM

  Anyone who has had similarly bad experiences with
  black crime I’d like to hear from. And also any
  exposes of corrupt Judges would be welcome.
  Please don’t let the anonymous thugs here scare you off. This particular thread won’t last much
  longer but there are other venues on the web.
  I’d like to compile a list of worthwhile websites,
  so any good suggestions are welcome. I think the
  tide is starting to turn, we got rid of Gray Davis here in California and Gov S is talking
  about recalling the whole legislature starting
  with Don Stink Finger Perata ! Whoopee !
  Burton is termed out as Speaker, and fruiter
  Brown cannot run for reelection in Oaktown.
  And Kerry’s looking like a big loser, they
  may not have to steal Florida this time.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 3:09 PM

  Keep apologizing ! Danny’s a friend of mine.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 3:10 PM

  see what kind of person Michael Hardesty really is:

  a man tries to kidnap a 7 year old girl in North Oakland and a picture is placed in OaklandNews.com. and what does Hardesty have to say about it?

  Comments…
  This is a racist caricature, I’m calling the PC police.

  Posted by: Michael Hardesty on September 12, 2003 05:34 PM

  http://www.oaklandnews.com/archives/000060.html

  you’ve been banned twice from that site. How many other sites have you been banned from for your racial slurs, hateful speech and bullying of anyone who disagrees with you?

  racist!

  Posted by stan on Aug 26, 2004 at 3:15 PM

  Just once. Jeannette banned MANY people from her
  site, and then God struck her dead after she
  made some false statements about me in December.
  Poor Jeannette !

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 3:23 PM

  You’re banned.

  Posted by: Jeannette on September 13, 2003 02:36 PM

  this is great, after Jeanette died you had this to say:

  What a stinking liar Jeannette was !
  I had not bothered to respond to anything of
  hers since last fall, and refrained from commenting on her death but now I say GOOD
  RIDDANCE !!!!

  Posted by: Michael Hardesty on March 2, 2004 09:20 AM

  Michael had been banned from posting messages to the Snooze last year after a nasty dust-up with Jeannette. After Jeannette’s untimely passing, I undid the ban, knowing that Michael and Jeannette had been friends at one point (or so I was told) and naively thinking he might have some kind or thoughtful words to share. Alas, he was unable to rise to even that level, or at the least, keep his trap shut. How sad.

  Posted by: The webmaster on March 2, 2004 02:35 PM

  how many times is that now, racist asshole?

  Posted by stan on Aug 26, 2004 at 3:26 PM

  Arnie, I noticed that you deleted the bulk of my
  comments above, i.e., the reason I had to respond
  to her lies, did you think I would not notice that ? I was banned once. The website has been
  essentially dormat since her death. I’m glad I
  was able to get on to respond to her lies before
  they shut down completely.
  Poor Jeannette !

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 3:46 PM

  what’s the matter, can’t count now? twice you’ve been banned, can’t you read? jeanette banned you and the webmaster banned you on March 2nd of this year. oh, that doesn’t count because jeanette is dead.
  yeah, real great guy. happy for her death. no compassion for a girl almost kidnapped. nothing matters unless it happens to you. oh, poor Michael, has a black tennant harassing him. poor guy. all black people are criminals now and in your own words, “beaners” are trying to turn california into “mexifornia”. you’re scared, aren’t you?
  lives in the armpit of the world and has spent thousands and thousands of dollars on appeals when you could have spent that money moving from the armpit of the world.
  so he screams at anyone who disagrees with his fancy book learning, says racial slurs are acceptable and then is happy someone is dead.

  based on your wonderful way of handling people, i think you brought this grief on yourself with that tennant. i think she sees you for the real kind of person you are.

  i’ll let jeanette say it:
  Ah, the voice of our local Libertarian, loaded with name-calling and not a single solution to be found.

  Final warning Michael: You may use OaklandNews to vent your spleen about candidates et cetera. You are even allowed to call them “buttheads” and to be X degree of vulgar. But neither you nor anyone else is allowed to make racial/ethnic blah blah slurs on my blog. (See “Beaner politicos” above.)

  Sigh.

  You have taken enjoyment and use of OaklandNews away from other people and that’s not forgivable.

  You’re not a martyr to free speech. You’re a blowhard and a bully who has no sense of what living in a pluralistic society means. You’ve said that you think it means that racial slurs _must_ be acceptable. I think pluralism calls for courtesy.

  You don’t debate with integrity. Instead you personalize almost everything, so that anyone who disagrees with you is slammed not for what they have said but for all the crimes you feel like ascribing to them simply because they didn’t buy
  your arguments or agree with your authors.

  Having been asked several times publicly and privately to stick by some very loose rules
  you continued to be a shit.

  
  what’s the matter, going to sue me now, Greg?

  Posted by stan on Aug 26, 2004 at 4:07 PM

  Suggestion to WebMaster at ITT———
  is there any way of keeping people on these
  threads focussed on the actual issue we are
  ostensibly discussing ?
  I was trying to get into the whole black crime
  issue and for a while there were some people
  who were focussed on the topic but unfortunately
  a couple of agent provocateurs have come onto
  the thread to reproduce very selective portions
  of things I wrote on other unrelated websites,
  in one case 2 1/2 years ago. I have seen other
  forums destroyed by these tactics while are solely
  designed to shut down free speech.
  Some friends who have perused this site have
  advised me that the person going by the moniker
  of “Stan” is a notorious provocateur with a very
  long criminal record. Apparently several people
  are familiar with his unsavory background which
  may include pedophilia.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 4:12 PM

  i’m establishing the fact that you are a racist, a bully and will only pick fights with people on this site.

  as you can see, your previous posts on other sites proves this.
  now, when called on your racism, you ask the editors to keep me focussed on the issue?
  this is the issue. attitudes like yours that only hinder and offer no solutions. the “oh, poor me!” attitude.

  selective portions? no. there’s links to these websites and you can’t admit that you’re not only a racist, but the very proven fact that you’ve been banned TWICE for your poor behaviour in forums.

  you said these things, not me. you try to pin them on me, as you try to pin your prejudice on black society based on your personal experience.

  Posted by stan on Aug 26, 2004 at 4:19 PM

  I totally accept your apology, “Stan” or Arnie.
  I agree totally with your description of your
  tactics that you described above. I share your
  sincere lamentations about your lack of education
  and total inability to spell, to compose and to
  write a literate sentence. I do not hold your
  being a negro against you, I have many negro
  friends such as Ken Hamblin.
  I’m very sorry that Lydia gave you AIDS and VD.
  But, “Stan” I think I’m getting Information
  Overlook. I have to decline your invitation
  to physically kiss my behind and perform serial
  fellatio on me. It’s not my “preference” and
  frankly you wouldn’t be my type if it was.
  Best wishes to you at the sentencing hearing.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 4:22 PM

  Again, “Stan” I’m sorry that Jeannette banned
  you six times from her forum but look at it this
  way, her forum was a joke, she repeatedly banned
  people from it once she disagreed with them,who
  gives a flying fuck ! and she is, thankfully,
  dead.
  I’m sorry to hear of your horrible experiences
  with fellow negroes but I wish you would spare
  the details of your rapes in prison.
  Information Overload, “Stan.”

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 4:28 PM

  Justice (# 2021)
  By Carolyn on Monday, 15 April 2002, 10:54:10 pdt
  In reply to message # 2007

  Ted,

  You wrote that Michael Hardesty has launched “[a]ll out attacks on everyone and everything, with the only exception being those members of this board who are quick to agree with and defend him, who continue agreeing with and defending him, and who never challenge him in any way, shape, or form, no matter how ridiculous he becomes…” Do you include me in this group?

  - Carolyn

  this is what you call rebuttal?
  Response To “Bronski” (# 2043)
  By Michael Hardesty (smi_mh@yahoo.com) on Tuesday, 16 April 2002, 11:49:16 pdt
  In reply to message # 2037

  Give me your name and address
  and I’ll consult an attorney
  about filing libel charges against
  you. You are a total liar.

  Response To Carolyn (# 2023)
  By Michael Hardesty (smi_mh@yahoo.com) on Monday, 15 April 2002, 11:37:28 pdt
  In reply to message # 2021

  I just responded to “Bronski” with
  a full rebuttal to his libellous
  tirade.
  Ted is an ignorant piece of fascist
  wannabe white trash.
  Don’t waste your time.

  http://www.nathanielbranden.net/dis/1992.shtml

  again, not my words.

  Posted by stan on Aug 26, 2004 at 4:30 PM

  Hardesty wrote:
  Again, “Stan” I’m sorry that Jeannette banned
  you six times from her forum but look at it this
  way, her forum was a joke, she repeatedly banned
  people from it once she disagreed with them,who
  gives a flying fuck ! and she is, thankfully,
  dead.
  I’m sorry to hear of your horrible experiences
  with fellow negroes but I wish you would spare
  the details of your rapes in prison.
  Information Overload, “Stan.”

  see what i’m saying.

  Posted by stan on Aug 26, 2004 at 4:33 PM

  Who gives a flying fuck ?

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 4:33 PM

  Who has done a review of The Bell Curve ?
  I know several people who have read it but
  I haven’t yet. Also any other books in this
  area anyone could recommend ?

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 4:36 PM

  Charles Murray, co-author of The Bell Curve, also
  wrote a book in the mid-80s documenting the utter
  failure of the Great Society and all social welfare programs to help the lumpen underclass.
  Has anyone here reviewed that work ?

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 4:40 PM

  Also check out antiwar.com and lewrockwell.com
  websites, both rightwing libertarian but some
  good stuff mixed in with the garbage.
  Also does anyone know of any good Bay Area local
  political websites ? Oaklandnews has folded, they
  have been almost defunct since January and they
  were a mixed bag because Jeannette Sherwin was
  often a fountainhead of misinformation.Sometimes
  she was right on the money as regards Oakland’s
  totally corrupt government and the extreme
  criminality of the lumpen black underclass in
  Oakland, she had a 200 unit public housing
  project in back of her lovely backyard, she
  would refer to that project as “the biggest
  shithole in Oakland” and Jeannette had a VERY
  LOW opinion of blacks in Oakland due to some
  bad experiences that she had including with
  racist black neighbors. But her demise does
  leave a vacuum of sorts, so if anyone knows
  of websites devoting to exposing local govt
  here, please post them.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 4:59 PM

  One of the statements in the ITT article rubs me
  the wrong way, it states that the Bush Admin. has
  nothing about the epidemic proportion of blacks
  incarcerated but is this really Bush’s fault ?
  Not according to Bill Cosby, not according to
  Ken Hamblin, not according to Clarence Thomas
  and countless other distinguished conservative
  Black Americans. Better that the black community
  start taking the responsibility here as well as
  the subsequent blame. Personally,I’m getting sick
  of Whitey being blamed for all the blacks’ own
  social pathologies. John McWhorter, a talented
  black neoliberal, has written several good books
  on this subject and has refused to be silenced
  by the politically correct goon squad, several
  of whose pathetic, impotent, intellectually and
  morally bankrupt specimens have appeared on this
  BOard. Have you all noticed these goons will do
  anything to keep from people from debating the
  issues ? I mean I really feel sorry for someone
  so pathetic that they have to dig up very SELECTED
  portions of someone’s contributions from other
  websites in a futile attempt to smear them rather
  than come to grips with their actual arguments.
  Name calling and ad hominem attacks in lieu of facts. I have nothing against calling someone
  an appropriate name but NOT in lieu of rational
  argumentation and ther purpose of these goons
  is to try to intimidate and silence dissenters.
  I refuse to be silenced, I come back with even
  more argumentation and facts. I’m convinced that
  the civil wrongs movement and that part of the
  Left that supports it are on their last legs.
  At least if the pro-black racism apologists on
  this thread are any indication. Just saw the
  latest Times poll on Yahoo, Bush is now leading.
  Keep it up “civil rights” goons, you’ll reelect
  Bush just as you did Nixon and Reagan.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 5:32 PM

  Pat Buchanan has had several good columns challenging the Stalinist Political Correctness
  Bowel Movement over the years, subscribe to The
  American Conservative, I’m a charter subscriber,
  I dropped my subs to The Nation, Z, The Progressive, ITT, Dissent, Texas Observer et al
  because I got tired of the same old apologias
  for black sociopathology, the kneejerk support
  for the UN, Third World, gun control and other
  lousy causes. Chomsky’s a longtime correspondent
  friend of mine but even he peddles the same old
  crap. Wonder why Hitchens, Cockburn, Sleeper,etc,
  all the really bright minds are leaving the Left ?
  Because they have dealt with too many of the numbskull brain-brothers of the type exemplified
  by the black racism apologists on this thread.
  A conservative is a liberal who’s been mugged.
  An old saying but true nonetheless.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 5:41 PM

  Ayn Rand’s essay on racism in The Virtue of Selfishness is worth checking out, she spells
  out why she opposed the 1964 Civil Rights Act
  and how the Negro leadership was promoting racism.
  No liberal or leftist has ever been able to answer
  her arguments here.
  Lionel Lokos 1969 book The New Racism is dated
  but also an excellent look at black anti-white
  racism and black anti-semitism, both of which are
  very pervasive in the black community.
  Lillian Boehme, another talented libertarian-
  Objectivist writer wrote a book also in 1969
  debunking LBJ’s Kerner Commission, headed by
  the crooked liberal Democrat Governor and Federal
  Judge Otto Kerner, who later went to the Federal
  pen. That report blamed everyone but the rioters
  for the 60s race riots, as Nixon stated.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 5:50 PM

  LibertyHaven.org is another excellent website
  that specializes in libertarian, Objectivist,
  economic freedom conservatism, opposition to
  the Civil Wrongs movement and much more. They
  have scholars ranging from the indefatigable
  Murray Rothbard to Ayn Rand, Israel Kirzner,
  Henry Hazlitt, Hayek, Isabel Paterson and many
  more. They are divided into sections such as
  Ayn Rand & Objectivism, Economic Freedom,
  Austrian Economics, Defenses of Laissez-Faire
  Capitalism, non-interventionist foreign policy
  that opposes our Israel-First Neocons, etc.
  Check them out ! You can download a treasure
  of great reading !

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 6:00 PM

  Barry Goldwater put it well when he said that
  there should be FORCED integration only in
  government buildings and there should be NO
  government buildings. Murray Rothbard in For
  A New Liberty has detailed how ALL functions
  now monopolized by government including police,
  army, law courts, prisons, schools, roads,
  public health can be done better and more cheaply
  by private capitalism. Also see Rothbard’s The
  Ethics of Liberty where he writes, What human being has the right to exist inside the body of
  another human being against that person’s will ?
  You have no right to be born. And the Hyde
  Amendment by depriving poor women of govt funds
  for abortion is one of the WORST laws ever passed
  by the drunken imbeciles in Congress. I’d much
  rather pay for their abortions than for their
  bastard kids. A woman should have the absolute right to abort for all nine months of her pregnancy.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 6:09 PM

  One of the worst aspects of the ghetto life is to
  see young blacks & latinos raise pit bulls for
  fighting. This is a felony but these lawless
  bastards don’t care about the law or the treatment
  of these poor abused dogs. The pit bull strain
  needs to be terminated, it was an act of supreme
  human cruelty to ever breed these dogs in the first place. These ghetto monsters don’t care,
  I have picked many a dead cat on our street alone
  and have even seen Rottweilers & German Shepherds
  killed by these jungle animals. I think the N word
  is way too mild to describe that kind of personal
  and social pathology. If the minority of decent
  blacks would start speaking out we could arrest
  these bastards and put them away permanently.
  How about it, Brothers ?

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 6:16 PM

  How would you handle the case of a veteran whose
  collecting federal funds (that’s us)on an alleged
  100% disability but can spend most of his waking hours working half a dozen different cars ?
  I mean if the person is 100% disabled shouldn’t
  that disqualify him from running an illegal
  (in a zoned residential area)car repair business ?
  I don’t get it ? How is that possible ? And how
  can a normally regulation & taxation city govt
  (Oakland) look the other way ? Well, if he be
  a bro’ they sure enoooofff do ! Is there an agency
  that prosecutes people fraudently receiving govt
  funds ? Reader suggestions are welcome.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 6:22 PM

  Now Jeannette Sherwin (deceased) of the OaklandNews.com used to sue bad neighbors like this. She went after a black couple for illegal
  use of their lot next to hers, they cried “Racism”
  of course but Jeannette beat their asses good before the Planning Commission (good to know
  that one agency of the Oaktown Funky Govt works).
  Jeannette was a hardcore almost Soviet style
  believer in city planning and zoning. But what’s
  an easygoing libertarian-Objectivist type like myself to do in such a situation ?
  Well, sue ! That’s what, that’s the American
  way, just ask John Edwards.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 6:28 PM

  One topic that is even more taboo than black crime
  is the whole subject of Israel’s Lobby (AIPAC,ADL
  AJC, JF, ad nauseum)in America. In Canada and much
  of Europe you can be imprisoned for even questioning the standard six million holocaust
  story and if your criticism of Israeli State
  Fascist policies is perceived as anti-semitic.
  And we think that we are part of the “free”
  world ? Get serious, please.
  It doesn’t help to be Jewish either because you then get the self-hate label, sort of a heads I
  win and tails you lose proposition. Noam Chomsky,
  Alfred Lilienthal and Norman Finkelstein can attest to this fact. Plus the millions of southern
  (mainly) white Christian fundamentalist nutballs
  who support Zionism for their own warped racist
  and religious reasons.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 26, 2004 at 6:41 PM

  See.

  ——- Original Message——-
  From: W. Dexter
  To: washingtonbureau@naacpnet.org <washingtonbureau@naacpnet.org>
  Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 8:12 AM
  washingtonbureau@naacpnet.org <washingtonbureau@naacpnet.org>

  Hello,
  I would like to formerly apologize on behalf of Michael P. Hardesty of Oakland California for using racial slurs and other inflammatory statements aimed at demeaning the black community. His statements have appeared in numerous internet forums and have led to his banishment from such sites.

  Thank you and apologies,

  W. Dexter

  ——————————— ;———————————&# #8212;——————————R 212;——————
  Do you Yahoo!?
  New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!

  Posted by "Windex" on Aug 27, 2004 at 1:45 PM

  who are you blabbing to, Mike?

  more racial slurs and hate towards people, I see. more hate aimed at “latinos” as you say. and you still can’t let jeanette rest in peace.

  other people’s racism is no excuse for your own.

  and i’ve read some of your earler posts where you actually support Ayn Rand and then later don’t. support other movements, then don’t.

  any book you recommend reading to bail you out of that one?

  Posted by stan on Aug 27, 2004 at 1:50 PM

  Hardesty wrote:
  This is a felony but these lawless
  bastards don’t care

  think the N word
  is way too mild to describe that kind of personal
  and social pathology. If the minority of decent
  blacks would start speaking out we could arrest
  these bastards and put them away permanently.
  How about it, Brothers ?
  

  I’m not your brother, racist.

  Posted by stan on Aug 27, 2004 at 1:55 PM

  Hardesty wrote:
  Have you all noticed these goons will do
  anything to keep from people from debating the
  issues ?
  

  hat issues? your hidden hatrred? your recommendation of some book? that’s how you discuss the issues, try to impress people with your past writing experience, and how many books you’ve read?

  as others have said in many other forums, you don’t offer solutions, only a smug attitude and when someone calls you on it, you attack their character, as you have attacked the late jeanette and continue to point to her as an excuse for your own racism.

  if this isn’t the issue, the whole point of this story, I don’t know what is.

  —a goon

  Posted by stan on Aug 27, 2004 at 2:03 PM

  Hardesty wrote:
  I dropped my subs to The Nation, Z, The Progressive, ITT, Dissent, Texas Observer et al
  because I got tired of the same old apologias
  for black sociopathology, the kneejerk support
  for the UN, Third World, gun control and other
  lousy causes

  you dropped your subscription to ITT. then what are you doing on this forum if you’re tired of the, in your own words, “same old apologias
  for black sociopathology,”?

  huh?

  Posted by stan on Aug 27, 2004 at 2:12 PM

  “BOard.”  —Is that like the B&O Railroad?
  “very SELECTED ”  —Ouch! Why the shouting?
  ” picked many a dead cat”  —They died on the vine?
  “argumentation and ther purpose” —ther, some former Viking god?
  “you’ll reelect”    —What is a reelect?

  God, you’re illiterate!

  And I’m aware of my typos in my e-mail to the NAACP. Thought you’d like that.

  I do believe you’re becoming quite the fascist if your e-mails are to be believed.

  Signed, “Windex”, a black racism apologist

  Posted by "Windex" on Aug 27, 2004 at 4:30 PM

  Michael, You are definately a man of few words.  LOL. I have enjoyed reading your comments on a number of subjects, some of which I do not have any idea what you are talking about, but just thought I would tell you abut a website that I think you would enjoy.  It is the National Alliance with Kevin Strom and William Pierce.  You may be familiar with it, but if not, here is the address:

  http://www.natall.com/

  William Pierce was one of the nations’ foremost thinkers and it is a terrible shame that he is gone.

  Keep up the good work

  Looking forward to more of your views

  jc

  Posted by jc on Aug 27, 2004 at 4:59 PM

  Just to wrap this up. Not worth wasting time
  with knuckleheads so final rebuttals are here.
  1) I never made the typos you listed, dexter.
  I reread my comments on page 3 and I now realize
  that you can’t tell fantasy from reality.You are
  the one who is illiterate.
  2) I have contacted some of the recipients of
  your fraudelent emails to inform that you are
  a nut who impersonates other people, commits
  fraud with their good name, and acts like a
  police provocateur. I will be filing a formal
  complaint with Yahoo over your unauthorized
  use of my name for the purpose of committing
  fraud.
  3) Stan, sometimes I agree with Rand and then
  at other times I do not. I know for you it would
  be like walking and chewing gum at the same time
  but some of are capable of nuanced, critical thinking.
  4) I never called you, Stan, my “brother.” You
  are a black racist, you are no brother. I do
  know intelligent, productive blacks but they
  are in a different world from yours.
  Your opinion and $1.65 will get you a ride on
  a bus in Oaktown BUT YOU HAVE TO PUT THE MONEY
  IN THE FARE BOX FIRST.
  As I noted before being called a racist by you
  is like being called a Communist by a John Bircher
  or an anti-semite by an Israeli government apologist. It means nothing, nada, zilch, zero.
  Sort of like your life.
  5)Spare me yo’ crocodile tears for the late Jeannette Sherwin. SHE HATED PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
  Her biggest rap was against Oakland blacks (she
  used another word though) who make false
  accusations of racism because they are too stupid
  to deal with a different point of view.
  This whole thing started when the dexter goon
  used the kkk slur against me. Every since then
  its been one ad hominem attack after after another. You two are pathetic !
  I may post a recommended reading list here for
  the intelligent people who can read and can think.
  6) Posting as “jc” was cute, dex, but who are you
  fooling ?
  7) Your all German, no Irish, dex, and no wonder
  your parents couldn’t stand visiting your pigpen.
  BBBBBBBYYYYYYYEEEEEE, guys !

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 27, 2004 at 6:46 PM

  Reading List

  Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand
  Human Action by Ludwig Von Mises
  Man, Economy and State (2 v)by Murray Rothbard
  Capitalism by George Reisman
  The God Of The Machine by Isabel Paterson
  Capitalism The Creator by Carl Snyder
  Paved With Good Intentions by Jared Taylor
  The Dispossessed Majority by Wilmot Robertson
  Debunking The Genocide Myth by Paul Rassiner
  The Career of Philosophy (2 v)by John Herman
  Randall, Jr
  History and Social Intelligence by Harry Elmer
  Barnes
  The Forced War by David L. Hoggan
  Asia Answers by Ralph Townsend
  Economics In One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt
  The Encyclopedia Of Philosophy (8 V)ed by Paul
  Edwards
  An Introduction To Philosophical Analysis by
  John Hospers
  The Politician by Robert Welch
  Back Door to War by Charles Callan Tansill
  The Origins Of The Second World War by A.J.P.
  Taylor
  McCarthy And His Enemies by William F. Buckley, Jr
  and L. Brent Bozell
  America’s Second Crusade by William Henry Chamberlain
  The Zionist Connection by Alfred M. Lilienthal
  Who Is Ayn Rand ? by Nathaniel & Barbara Branden
  The Free World Colossus by David Horowitz
  The Cold War and Its Origins (2 v)by D. F. Fleming
  Socialism by Ludwig Von mises
  The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand
  The New Racism by Lionel Lokos
  McCarthyism:The Fight For America by Senator
  Joseph R. McCarthy
  The Hoax Of The Twentieth Century by Professor
  Arthur R. Butz
  Perpetual War For Perpetual by Harry Elmer Barnes
  The Roosevelt Myth by John T. Flynn
  It’s Very Simple:The True Story Of Civil Rights
  by Alan Stang
  The New Totalitarians by Roland Huntford (on Sweden)
  Kant’s Metaphysic Of Experience (2 v)by H.J. Paton
  The Philosophy of Objectivism by Leonard Peikoff
  Philosophy:Who Needs It ? by Ayn Rand
  Ayn Rand:The Russian Radical by Chris Matthew
  Sciabarra
  The Actor (on Dulles) by Alan Stang
  Lost Rights by James Brovard
  The Great Books Of The Western World (55 v)
  The Difference Of Man And The Difference It Makes
  by Mortimer Adler
  The Ethics Of Liberty by Murray Rothbard
  For A New Liberty by Murray Rothbard
  The Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky
  What Price Israel ? by Alfred M. Lilienthal
  The Other Side Of The Coin by Alfred M. Lilienthal
  The Conscience Of A Conservative by Barry M. Goldwater
  The Great Betrayal by Pat Buchanan
  A Republic, Not An Empire by Pat Buchanan
  (PS anything by Pat Buchanan)

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 27, 2004 at 7:13 PM

  That was just a very partial, abbreviated listing
  of the many books that I have read and can highly
  recommend.
  Happy Reading !
  And thank you, ITT, for having this forum.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 27, 2004 at 7:15 PM

  getting the last word here,

  Michael Hardesty shows his ignorance and racism by assuming my race. it has nothing to do with it. that, itself is racism.
  by the way, what is a black racist apologist? is it a black person who is a racist who is apologizing? or is it someone who is apologizing for black racism? See, you left out a hyphen there, so ambiguity is another one of your tools to show people how smart you think you are. confusion is thy middle name.
  as far as your comments that you claim I made partial postings of, i’ve posted links for your cruel comments and how you were even put on a “no longer serve” notice by the vet you visited because of harassment. see a pattern here?
  you’ve hung yourself by your own angry, hateful, racial slurs and i’ve just posted them to expose you for the fraud you are.
  partial comments? it doesn’t matter—what you said before the racial slur—it was just more blabbing on about a book by some psychotic long-dead author giving a warped world view or some ultra-right separatist view on race.

  you have an axe to grind because of some tennant throwing garhage on your lawn and, based on the pleasant way you handle people here, one could think hostilities escalated because of your methods of threatening litigation, racially biased letters to editors, and such name-calling as:

  coward
  mother’s abortion
  goons
  ghetto monsters

  i have a feeling you search the internet for such forums to vent your frustrations. it’s sad.

  as far as this comments is concerned:
  “As I noted before being called a racist by you
  is like being called a Communist by a John Bircher”, which you posted earlier, I have used your own words to prove your biggotry. You have not refudiated them at all—yet you call me a coward because I don’t use my real name. It’s because you do use your real name is why I was able to track down your comments through the wonderful Google search engine.

  Posted by stan on Aug 27, 2004 at 10:55 PM

  I pulled the typos from your very comments. I forgot about your selective memory.

  Still a racist. And a lying, hateful, name-calling one at that.

  “Windex”

  Posted by windex on Aug 27, 2004 at 11:52 PM

  You’ll think differently about a certain brand-name glass cleaner from now on, won’t you, MH?

  Posted by Windex on Aug 28, 2004 at 4:37 AM

  I didn’t think it was possible to have a lower
  opinion of “Stan” but after reading his last word
  salad, I have to laugh. I can see why he wouldn’t
  want to sign his real name on his incoherent rants
  because he is deeply ashamed of his comments. I
  have nothing to hide so I can proudly sign my name. I never harassed any vet, my wife had some
  words with his incompetent black assistants the
  day we had to have a nurse come to see our older
  cat. He was unable to do what he promised and
  we had to get someone else. So he wrote a weaselly
  letter we received two days later. Bottom line is
  its none of your business and as usual you can’t
  the facts straight. You are simply an ignorant,
  insignificant, ugly little black racist, who are
  a dime a dozen in Oaktown and the city will be
  much better when your racist ghetto mentality
  is no longer of our town. It was a whole lot more
  than just throwing garbage on our property for
  years, there were very serious crimes involved
  including an attempt to murder my wife. Your
  pulling strands of comments out of context and
  leaving out the full context of what I have
  written on other sites is the mark of a police
  provocateur and a physical coward. Your government
  check ought to be cut off so you can occupy your
  time with honest work.
  There were no typos to pull NOR COULD YOU ACCESS
  OR CHANGE ANYTHING I HAVE WRITTEN.
  What “window cleaner” are you talking about ?
  You are already forgotten. Bye-bye.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 31, 2004 at 3:39 PM

  “Assistants” should have read “assistant” singular, this vet whom I see all the time at
  my gym (he doesn’t care to look me straight
  in the eye)had two aides but the black (surprise !) one was an incompetent.
  As far names go, I stand by every one I have
  written, I don’t play PC games with multiracial
  morons of any sort. If your a goon or a liar or
  a ghetto monster or a coward, I tell it like it
  is. And yo’ Stan, yo’ mama did have an abortion,
  you.
  And Dex, if your an apostle of love, then count
  me on the other side.
  Both of you buttbuddies can go back to your well
  deserved obscurity.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 31, 2004 at 3:47 PM

  Oh, Jared Taylor is very much alive and his great
  book Paved With Good Intentions has sold many,
  many copies and continues to sell briskly.
  Aristotle and Plato are also long dead authors
  but continue to be read by literate people.
  “Stan” you are the last person to be labelling
  someone as “psychotic.” Your disjointed, rambling,
  incoherent rants are so bizarre that I asked a
  psychiatrist friend to read them and he stated
  that it was obvious that you are either severely
  mentally ill or at the low IQ mildly retarded
  level. He used to electroshock people like you
  in state mental hospitals but admitted it didn’t
  do any good.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 31, 2004 at 3:54 PM

  For your information Mr. Hardesty, Windex did not post under the guise of “JC”.  I post under my own name and just thought that you might be interested in some racialist literature, but apparently you are as paranoid as the very people you criticize most, namely the blacks of America.  I think probably that you are secretly in love with the blacks, as your diatride sounds more like a “family” squabble than anything else.  In any case, forgive me for thinking that you might have been a thinking white American with a worthwhile interest in your races’ future.
  Perhaps all you are is just an angry person.

  Good Day

  JC

  Posted by JC on Aug 31, 2004 at 4:08 PM

  Thank you “JC” for those illuminating remarks.
  Am I to understand your parents were not bright
  enough to give you a full name but instead gave you just two initials ? Please forgive my cynicism
  but I have found this thread to be full of either
  a) police provocateurs, if we are being charitable
  or b) complete illiterate retards, if we are not.
  To criticize the extreme racism of the Berkeley-
  Oakland blacks is not to consider ALL blacks of
  the same cut. Apparently you are as much of a racist as Dex & Stan, just the other side of the
  same coin.

  Posted by Michael Hardesty on Aug 31, 2004 at 4:37 PM

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