We’re Not in Lake Wobegon Anymore

Sheesh Joanne, why don’t you just have York turn water into wine while you’re at it?  Surely only an omnipotent supreme being would be able to wave a magic wand and cure all of these social ills you’ve cited.

Since I doubt that you really think that York is the 2nd coming of Christ, the only other option is that you think Kerry is.

Uh Oh.

Great article.  What an odd mixture of relief and sorrow to read it.  Hit just the right note I think, to inspire my students to get out there and vote!  Thank you!

From: Love Letters From Leftists
By Bruce Walker (11/19/03)

Excerpt:

Get personal! Leftists want power, no truth. They want to crush those with different opinion, not persuade those who disagree. If people are cowed into silence then not only has the Leftist won the debate, but he has convinced others that there is simply nothing to debate. Insult, snicker and defame.

Picture those who question the Leftist monopoly on truth and morality just as a good Leftist working for Himmler would picture a stereotypical Jew before the Nazis savagely murdered the Jew. Anyone who holds a conservative position - after you and your friends have gone to the trouble of lecturing and hectoring him for years and years - must simply be ignorant, dumb, bigoted or evil.

The Leftist ad hominem attack need not be bounded by logic. Hitler and his fellow Leftists had no problem simultaneously describing Jews as stupid and clever, as inferior and powerful. What is good enough for the Leftist leaders of Nazi Germany is good enough for modern Leftists.

Don’t get specific. I cannot overemphasize this enough. Ann Coulter wrote a book which single-handedly dismantles a generation of Leftist mythology. Her challenge to Leftist interviewers? Identify one single person wrongly and unjustly accused by Senator Joe McCarthy of being sympathetic to communism.

No Leftist ever found one, because none exist. The critical significance of this fact, however, was largely lost on the American public because Leftists wisely chose to never even attempt to come up with an actual specific instance of wrongful accusation by McCarthy.

Fall back on unprovable assumptions. Anti-Semites, who infest the Left, can always demand that conservatives prove than tripe like the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion and the concomitant “Jewish conspiracy” does not exist. Any proof will only expose to a Leftist the cleverness of the plot.

Feminist propagandists can post the faces of male college students with the statement underneath “potential rapists.” Black opportunists can simply yell “Racist!” and expect others to respond with proof of non-racism. It is easy and requires no special skill, wit or knowledge.

Lie. Lie and lie and lie. Truth, after all, is an illusion. Those subjective “truths” which matter are already known to Leftists: War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength. Why trouble yourself with “details”? Leftists plagiarize, pilfer and pervert any datum which would undermine their grand truth - and why not! If you have a monopoly on truth, then what is the point of getting into the petty business of “facts”?

Hide your beliefs. Take your cue from all the “moderates” and “progressives” who stopped being “liberals” about the same time that people figured out what “liberals” supported. Masking your preconceptions is a marvelous way to avoid getting into the meat of arguments. You stand for social justice (or something like that) and conservatives stand for evil.

Eschew logic. This has been well refined in academia. Logic and coherent thought are all part of the VRWC or of the “Jewish cabalists” or of “Patriarchal rulers” or - well, fill in the blank, it doesn’t matter - the principal point is to challenge the very idea that words have meaning, that thoughts be consistent or that the secular religion of Leftism can be disproved by any means at all.

Joanne, the main dispute was never over the superscript “th” found in the forgeries. That’s a red herring that CBS threw out last week to fool people such as yourself. The superscript issue is but one of the many red flags pointing to forgery. Furthermore, the superscript cited by CBS as proof was noticeably different in size, placement, and style, than the one used in the document.

The prevailing theory is that CBS is protecting someone in the Kerry camp. Whereas the Terry McAuliffe theory (your theory) is that CBS is protecting someone in the Bush camp. It’s all going to come out Joanne.  Prepare to be embarrassed.

There is a long and growing list of objective, empirical evidence that shows the documents to be demonstrably false.

In column A we have a slew of experts saying either that the documents are in fact forgeries, or very likely forgeries. These experts include typographical experts, FBI forensic document experts, font experts, computer programming experts with specific expertise in fonts, font spacing, kerning (and the calculaltions needed to make perfectly centered spacing in a proportional font), IBM Selectric and IBM Composer experts, type-setting experts, Military document format experts, handwriting experts, and legal admissibility experts.

Furthermore, the man cited in the forged memo that was supposed to have exerted pressure on Bush’s behalf was retired a full year and a half prior to the memo.

Two people cited by CBS as supporting the documents authenticity have said that CBS mislead them about the documents.

The wife and son of the colonel supposed to have written the memo say that that there is nothing about this memo that is consistent with Colonel Kilian’s habits, opinions, or motivation. They were interviewed by a CBS producer, but their comments were not convenient to the liberal slant of the story so they were left on the cutting room floor.

Ben Barnes’ own daughter has said that he is lying about giving Bush special treatment. CBS neglected to mention that Ben Barnes is a major fundraiser for the Kerry campaign, is trying to promote his upcoming book, and is a shoe-in for a cabinet post should Kerry be elected.  They also neglect to mention that Dan Rather’s daughter has worked directly with Ben Barnes as a liberal activist in Texas.

CBS is using copies, not originals. Anyone can Photoshop a signature onto a document. Until pressed on the issue, CBS did not volunteer that the documents they were using were copies. These documents would not see the light of day in a courtroom.

Using Times New Roman font at a 12 point size, when typed out in Microsoft Word, the document overlays perfectly with the forgery, including the perfectly centered letterhead using proportional spacing.  Two of the fake letter heads are supposedly three months apart, but they overlay each other perfectly AND the Microsoft Word version, a feat that the head of the online IBM Selectric experts group says is impossible to do once, but even more so to do twice.

There is currently a $38,000 reward available to anyone that can reproduce the CBS document on a machine that was in existence in 1972.

CBS has not produced a typewriter that can reproduce this document like Microsoft word can.  Its ONE and only expert is a handwriting expert, not a forensic document expert, at odds with other handwriting experts, and at odds with the reality of an easy Photoshop fake. At this point, it’s Dan Rather against the world - no one, no expert that is coming out on his side, and Dan Rather is losing. So are people like you that have refused to admit for years that the mainstream media is a shill for the Democratic party.

Cowpox:  you can go to hell; why don’t you lynch yourself on your poison-tree, rebel jerk.

All others:  Wake up and realize it is not the “supreme commanders” fault.  It is yours and mine.  Are you all naive enough to believe that the administration is at fault for our society’s and country’s issues?

John O’Neil:

“Let’s leave John Kerry in command of the only vessel he is competent to command.....His Surfboard”.

Hey York…
Who cares if the docs are legit? I’m all for whatever it takes to get Bush the hell out of office and back on his ranch having sex with farm animals. Dan Rather is doing a nobel thing here. This political war is bigger than your forgery obsession.

“The most feared in Iraq is happening! Saddam is replaced by an unknown-unseen-monster called Abu Musab al-Zarqawi who is leading an Al-Queda local cell to behead human beings without any human consideration and attacking civilians any time anywhere.”

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/06-24d-04.asp

What!!  Al Queda in Iraq!!  Ya don’t say!

Everytime I turn around another leftist myth bites the dust today.

“What!!  Al Queda in Iraq!!  Ya don’t say!”

Ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecies? He wasn’t active in Iraq until we invaded.

al-Zarqawi was once supported by the CIA during Reagan’s tenure. So much for his great leadership.

http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=33;t=00 01520;p=

RE: Ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecies?

Yep.  This ain’t one.

RE: Dan Rather, CBS, liberals, and Memo-gate

Over the course of the last few days I have asked no less than a dozen liberals how they feel about their side having been caught in a fraud to influence the outcome of a Presidential election.  In every single case, without exception, including the one above with Joanne Roush, they changed the subject.  Wonder why.

Well...I guess the thread has descended into insanity while I was outside picking tomatoes.

York, I think I already expressed my personal chagrin over the possible involvement of anyone connected with the Kerry campaign over this incident. Here is my position: should it be established that, as was reported on several right leaning blogs, the documents originally came into the possession of an “oppo” researcher on the campaign staff, that researcher should divulge who gave him/her the documents. A campaign staffer is not protected by the first amendment as is, say, Bob Novak, party to treason for outing a CIA operative.

Next, the campaign should have released the documents simultaneously to all major media outlets and the RNC with a statement that the Kerry campaign received these documents on an unsolicited basis and believes that they bear scrutiny by the public. The should not have given them only to 60 Minutes, a network owned by Viacom with a poor record of making consistent or reliabe judgments in political matters. Dan Blather is particularly compromised, in my opinion, by his stated support for President Bush in regard to the invasion of Iraq - which happens to be the key issue in the campaign.

The fact is, Karl Rove has a history of operations of this nature, so I eagerly anticipate the continued investigation of this matter. It’s unfortunate that the Kerry campaign foolishly handled the documents in the manner in which they did. Had they done the right thing, as outlined above, they would be standing on the sidelines unimplicated in any manner that would stick.

At worst, I think the status of this matter is that the Kerry campaign behaved foolishly in regard to the disposition of the documents, if I accept the premise on right wing blogs that the documents were delivered to them. So far there has been no indication that the campaign itself created the documents.

Why don’t we just wait and see what transpires. Once again, besides side issues and name calling, do you have a position on any one of the real issues that until today were under debate here?

...and 16 to 2, if I didn’t strongly suspect you were actually Brooks posting under another moniker, I’d tell you to go take your meds. As it is, you’re a delightful poster boy for the RNC. I didn’t think Zell could be outdone, but you’re a piece of work.

One thing stood out most to me. Garrison states: “The concentration of wealth and power in the hands of the few is the death knell of democracy. No republic in the history of humanity has survived this. The election of 2004 will say something about what happens to ours. The omens are not good.”

The interesting thing about U.S. capitalism is that it has decreased 1,000-fold the “concentration of wealth and power in the hands of the few.” If you look at all of human history up to the advent of the U.S., it basically consisted of this: 98% of the people living in poverty, and 2% of the people enjoying a lavish existence as the idle rich or absolute monarchs.

This is a bit of an exaggeration, I’m sure. But the basic point is true: It was until the advent of the U.S. that the “masses” began to have pretty good lives, materially speaking, and that we had the rise of a large middle class. Some have a problem with a CEO earning enough to drive a Porsche (or whatever) and the factory worker earning enough to drive a Saturn. But both are driving a car--that’s the incredible thing. The difference between a Porsche and a Saturn is not nearly as great as the differences we used to have: Between a lavish life for the political elite, and harsh life of misery for the rest.

Over the last two hundred years, it is free-market, pro-growth policies, like those of the current administration, that have led to this abundance for everyone who is willing to work--as opposed to what this world used to have, which was abundance merely for kings and queens and people with an elite family line.

“Over the course of the last few days I have asked no less than a dozen liberals how they feel about their side having been caught in a fraud to influence the outcome of a Presidential election.”

Sure, when you ask a loaded question like that, noone is going to answer you.

CBS is not ‘our side’.

How do you feel about ‘your side’ resorting to lying vets to discredit an honored veteran?

“John O’Neil:

“Let’s leave John Kerry in command of the only vessel...”

You’re kidding right? John O’Neil wasn’t even there when Kerry was there, and never served with or under Kerry. Of course, in SWIFTVETS minds this makes him perfectly qualified to comment on Kerry’s leadership.

Not to mention he sold himself to be tricky dick Nixon’s little attack surrogate, what a tool.

Moderates for Ignorance chimed in:

““What!!  Al Queda in Iraq!!  Ya don’t say!”

Ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecies? He [sic] wasn’t active in Iraq until we invaded.”

Yeah, right.  “He” was in NYC.  Go stick your head back in the dirt.

If you haven’t had enough of the Bruce Walker material, by all means follow this link to a truly incoherent piece on how the Jew were actually behind the Holocaust (or something like that) along with the Soviets, etc., etc., etc.

http://www.opinionet.com/article.php?id=31

This whole site is a real treat for the eyes and liberally sprinkled with RNC logos.

“Well...I guess the thread has descended into insanity while I was outside picking tomatoes.”

Bingo, Ms. Phoebe Non Sequitor.  Preemptive stereotypical liberal striking, meant for strategic effect:  Create false doubt, appeal to the crowd, and destabilize the adversary.  Thanks for using it as your lead...just as I’ve predicted.

“Yeah, right.  “He” was in NYC.  Go stick your head back in the dirt.”

Try to follow along. ‘He’ is Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

And the point was that he wasn’t active in Iraq before the invasion. If he was in NYC, he isn’t in Iraq is he?

Go stick your head back in a Bush.

“How do you feel about ‘your side’ resorting to lying vets to discredit an honored veteran?”

I feel like you should prove that assertion.

Doesn’t it strike you as ironic that it’s no-interview, no-platform Kerry who the overwhelming preponderance of evidence suggests is lying?

“Sure, when you ask a loaded question like that, noone [sic] is going to answer you.”

Repeat after me, preponderance of evidence.  Even CBS can’t document the authenticity of those documents so why should you pin your credibility on them?

“Repeat after me, preponderance of evidence.”

Repeat after me, read carefully. The point is the way the question was asked York. I never said a thing about CBS.

Can’t you relax for a bit and follow the discussion instead jumping to conclusion right off the bat?

“Sure, when you ask a loaded question like that, noone is going to answer you.

CBS is not ‘our side’.

How do you feel about ‘your side’ resorting to lying vets to discredit an honored veteran?”

1) CBS is not your side?  Say what!?

2) You changed the subject again.

3) John Kerry dishonored himself.  Look at the congressional record and the videotaped testimony.  Liberals keep ignoring that?  Wonder why.

Thank you, Garrison Keillor, for saying what so many of us moderate ex-Republicans (now top-of-the-ticket Independents) feel about George W. Bush. While I will still vote for many good Republicans in my community, the Bushes have gotten the last vote they’ll ever get from me. And there are many of my “red state” friends here who feel—and will vote—the same way.

If your article wasn’t strong enough, just reading the last page of comments you’ve received on this blog would convince me to change the company I used to keep. If I were still a dedicated Republican, I would find something distracting for the blathering namecallers “6Gun” and “16 to 2” to do mighty fast in the back 40 for the rest of the campaign. Or I’d tack their right boots to the barn floor and let them spin in circles until they puked (like their comments are getting the rest of us to do. Grow up, guys.)

If they will allow any discussion of the issues on this site, let me post one Top 10 list of Bush’s own “flip-flops” for them to chew (choke?) on and respond to. The scary thing to me about Bush is his lack of any intellectual depth, so I doubt that he’s even aware how inconsistent his positions have been. (After all, if Karl Rove doesn’t tell him, how on earth would he know?)

We can no longer afford to have this “asleep at the wheel” urban cowboy in charge of this country, or exerting so much influence on the future of the planet. Now it’s time to go to the web-site “Republicans for Kerry” and download more material for my “red state” neighbors who are as queasy as I am about the unintelligible but nonetheless far right-wing face on our national ticket. The web-site address is http://www.republicansforkerry.org/

For this new Independent, the Republican ticket looks a whole lot like (Alfred E.)Newman/Goebbels to me. Now for Bush’s flip-flops (and for those wordsmiths on this blog, a sampling for how the national and world press found many different words to describe Bush’s recent inconsistencies on the “war on terror”:)
------

Bush’s Top Ten Domestic Policy Flip-Flops

1. Bush opposed extension of unemployment benefits, costing more than two million workers; then he flip-flopped and supported a limited extension, but only for a limited few workers. [Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, 6/28/04; AP, 1/8/03]

2. Candidate Bush opposed providing government assistance to help automakers develop hybrid cars; now he’s flip-flopped and proposed providing them money to develop them. [Chicago Sun-Times, 10/29/00; White House, 1/28/03]

3. Governor Bush opposed a patient’s bill of rights; then during the 2000 campaign candidate Bush flip-flopped and said he supported it; then President Bush flip-flopped again and had his administration fight against it. [Houston Chronicle, 5/23/97; 2000; Presidential Debate, 10/17/00; LA Times, 3/24/04]

4. Candidate Bush said he supported controls on greenhouse gases to fight global warming; then, President Bush flip-flopped and opposed them, supporting only “voluntary” reductions of gases. [Business Week, 4/9/01; AFP, 2/13/03]

5. Bush said gay marriage was a state issue; then he flip-flopped and said we needed a Constitutional amendment to ban it. [Presidential primary debate, 2/15/00; Bush, 2/24/04]

6. Bush imposed restrictions on steel imports; then he flip-flopped and removed the restrictions. [USA Today, 3/5/02; Chicago Tribune, 12/5/03]

7. Bush supported continuing the ban on assault weapons; then he flip-flopped and opposed keeping the ban. [Ashcroft Confirmation Hearing, 1/17/01; Washington Post, 2/26/04]

8. Bush opposed the McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform while it was in Congress; then, he flip-flopped and said he supported it and then signed it into law. [ABC News, 3/16/01, Detroit News 3/17/01; White House press release, 2/27/02]

9. Bush supported letting 527 campaign committees run ads; now, he’s flip-flopped and says he thinks they should be banned from doing so. [Bush interview, Face The Nation, 3/5/00; Wash. Post, 8/24/04]

10. Bush supported fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US.; then, after meeting with Mexico’s president, Vincente Fox, Bush flip-flopped and said he was against it. [MSNBC, 3/6/04]

-----

MEDIA EUPHEMISMS FOR BUSH’S FLIP-FLOP ON TERRORISM

AP (MLive): Bush Recants, Says Terror War Will Be Won

Reuters: Changing Tack, Bush Says Terror War Winnable

NYT: In Retreat, Bush Says U.S. Will Win War on Terrorism

NYT: After Citing Doubt, Bush Declares ‘We Will Win’ Terror War

NPR: Bush Revises Remarks, Vows to ‘Win’ Terror War

ABC News: Bush Now Saying ‘We Will Win’ Terror War

LA Times: Bush Clarifies War Remark

Dallas Morning News: Bush clarifies statement: ‘We will win’ terror war

Fort Worth Star Telegram: Bush backtracks, says US will win war on terror

People’s Daily Online (China): Bush revises remarks over victory on anti-terror war

Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel editorial: Bush’s nuances on war It is tempting to label as flip-flop the president’s dueling assertions about the winnability of the war on terror. Bush told a television interviewer in a segment aired Monday that, “I don’t think you can win” this war. On Tuesday, he told the American Legion, “ make no mistake about it, we are winning and we will win.” Flip-flop? No need to go there. 
-------

It’s time to take our country (and our Republican Party) back from these simple-minded, but nonetheless evil, frauds. Thanks again, Garrison, for saying what so many of us feel. Keep saying it, as often and as loud as you can.

“1) CBS is not your side?  Say what!?”

CBS works for us? Say what?

“2) You changed the subject again.”

Nope, my point was about loaded questions. You guys are good at it.

“3) John Kerry dishonored himself.  Look at the congressional record and the videotaped testimony.”

I read the testimony, did you?

“We are also here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country?”

“Where are they now that we, the men whom they sent off to war, have returned? These are commanders who have deserted their troops, and there is no more serious crime in the law of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded.
The Marines say they never leave even their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude.”

Sounds like he was fighting for the way our servicemen was treated by the administration to me. Amazing that you can take a single quote from an hours-long testimony out of context and make something else out of it. But hey distortion is Karl Rove’s favorite game.

Matt, you make a very good point, and I would only ask you to examine the direction of the trends in this country. You can go back to the history of the Gilded Age, which led to a great deal of social unrest.

Most people, regardless of party, when asked to name our finest hour in recent history, will point to the 1940’s and WWII as a time when the nation pulled together to defeat fascism and militarism in the world. Millions upon millions of lives were sacrificed to tame the beast. At that time, Americans were willing to endure very high rates of taxation, particularly on the wealthy, rationing of food, fuels, and many other items, and every citizen found a way to contribute to the effort. Profiteering was punished, at least sometimes, and leaders were held accountable.

Sadly, none of those conditions pertain today in the so-called War On Terror. The middle class is paying the freight for everyone in this country and increasingly falling behind in terms of income and opportunity. The gap between the rich and poor widens annually, which is a trend that began during the Reagan administration.

Part of the discussion here is about unravelling the threads of these facts and deciding how they pertain to each of us individually in terms of our political decisions. I’m glad you joined us and hope you’ll stay for awhile.

This says a lot of nothing.

There is no support given to any of the conclusions drawn.

Kudos to you Mr. Keillor.  Finally, someone who has the (I love this word)chutzpah to look at the situation in the U.S. today and like another great journalist, Edward R. Murrow, have the nerve to, in essence, say to the Republican party . . . “Sir[s and Madams], have you no shame!”

Right on Sir!

Moderates 4 Selective Truth:

1) You wrongly attributed the “Repeat after me...” post to ME.  Perhaps you should heed your own admonition to “relax for a bit and follow the discussion instead jumping to conclusion right off the bat”.

2) You also falsely stated that you didn’t say a thing about CBS, but I quote from your post:  “CBS is not ‘our side”.

Are these two examples of what you mean by “moderating 4 truth”?

Joanne, “16 to 2” here again.

Thank you for illustrating a key difference between a leftist and a conservative, and not uncoincidentally, another reason why Kerry will lose the election. 

A conservative will tell you that our finest hour is right now, and he will prove it.  Right now we have less poverty in our country than ever before, more wealth, less disease, a more highly educated populace, we are more capitalized than ever which enables us to do more work with less effort, we are more cognizant about the world and its content than ever before, and we are more in control of our own survival than ever before.  We live at the zenith of the human condition in history and we enjoy one historical superlative after another. 

But the left refutes this truth in order to fabricate its own necessity.  Why?  What a colossal waste of time and energy.  What a monumental expenditure for the sake of vanity. 

At the end of the day, what enduring truths have the left given us?  Nada.

Moderates 4 Selective Truth:

“CBS works for us? Say what?”

Yes. They are shilling for the Democratic party.  Case in point: Memo-gate.  You want more?  Do a lexis-nexis search and look at their treatment of Bush versus their treatment of Kerry.

About changing the subject:
“Nope, my point was about loaded questions. You guys are good at it.”

Yep. You changed the subject. Specifically, you reached into your grab bag of security blankets and predictably pulled out the Swift Boat Vets. You changed the subject. Okay? Got it?

“I read the (John Kerry) testimony, did you?”

Yes. I read it. So did the North Vietnamese. And they liked it. And they used it. And Vietnam vets read it, and have been smeared and disgusted by it. And I couldn’t help but notice that you selectively quoted it. That’s why your new name shall henceforth be “Moderates 4 Selective Truth”.

All of you repubs points against John Kerry are amusing only to yourselves. Continue to ignore what this president is doing to our country (that’s right it’s our country to) and we will all pay the price. Yours is the party of intolerance, narrow mindedness, exclusion, racism, religious self-righteousness, old school thinking, and it’s my way or the highway so very nakedly apparent in your president. Democracy will not tolerate this approach. It is undemocratic and unconstitutional and we will put and end to it.

Grow up, wake up, get up, and get real. 
Deal with the real issues for a change. Try to focus, try real hard.
It truly amuses me that so many of you republicans actually believe that the powers that be are interested in you for any other reason than to get your support so that they may remain in power. You are all fools being taken for a ride. You are delusional. You are just little pawns who think that you matter. You have been hoodwinked into thinking that you are important. You are nothing and the sooner you realize that the sooner you will “Wake up” and start to think like a real person. It’s not to late for you to do just that. If bush wins this election, in a few years you will think back to these words that I have written here and you will remember that you were warned (by me and all the other clear thinkers who have contributed to this thread) and that you could have changed to help make a difference. I only pray that we will be able to escape from what will be a very bleak future for all of us.

Try listening to your heart and then try to pull the real meaning from what GK is saying in his fine article and then think about what has happened to our country in the last few years. If you cannot see the path that we are on is very dangerous then maybe we will all perish together.

9-11 was very bad but for us to go from that to where we are headed is a grave mistake. We are a great country and we do not need to take the road to destruction to fight terrorist. There are better ways. Islam does not want to destroy us. We have put our army in the worst place on the face of the earth that we could have put them, right in the middle of the ancient holy land. For God’s sake people wake up.
We can fight terrorism without risking worldly disaster. By almost everyone’s reckoning we are not safer now than before 9-11. So what’s to gain form this adventure?
There are better ways. When two parties have a difference, killing each other is not the answer. It is clearly not the answer for the extremist and it is clearly not the answer for us.
We have much to do, stop arguing and start negotiating.
For so many of you this thread seems to me to be like a high school debate. You can say anything and suggest anything as long as you can produce a piece of paper, a card, to help assert your opinion regardless of whether you’re full of shit or not and more importantly regardless of what is common sense right and wrong.

Common sense and statistics tell us that bush has not done a very good job with almost everything that he has done. The proof is in the pudding gentlemen. We can argue the whys and where fore’s forever but that doesn’t change the end result any bit. Now does it.

bush admits he will not change.

Nothing is better now than when bush took office.
Nothing!!!

Focus people.

Common sense says to mr. bush, “YOUR FIRED”!

Our entire society works this way from the smallest business up to the giant corporations.
Professional sports would be the biggest easiest example for you to think about.

For anyone to argue that bush deserves 4 more years is a joke. Do we have to go all the way to the basement before you people finally see that a new leader is needed? Do we deserve to go there in the first place?

We need to work together and this administration has fostered separation. We cannot work through our problems divided into two countries. If I thought for one minute that a second bush term would bring a co-op’d effort then we would have nothing to fear but where is there any indication that bush would do this? He promised this in 2000 and he took us in the opposite direction. Can’t you see that this is bad for all of us. We need diverse opinions and a consensus for the countries direction not another four years of my way or the highway. This country has become what it has by being a country of inclusion. george bush will not take us there.

Jimboy:

When you say “start to think like a real person”, does that include adopting very poor grammar of the kind we see manifesting itself at regular intervals throughout your post?

JIMBOY, you outdid yourself and your movement. 

RE:

All of you
intolerant
narrow minded
exclusive
racist
religiously self-righteous
old school thinking
my way or the highway
repubs.

We will put and end to [you]. 

You are all fools.
You are delusional.
You are just little pawns.
You have been hoodwinked.
You are nothing.

Islam does not want to destroy [you].

[We will destroy you.]

OK JIMBOY.  Thanks for the warning.

“Nothing is better now than when bush took office. Nothing!!!”

JIMBOY, chill, dood.  What you want is a king. 

Wrong country.

!!!

The sage of my people speaks!  (As a transplated Midwestern Lutheran, raised Republican, God Fearing and taught to believe that opportunity begets responsibility) I have seen the Party my grandfather and my Father supported, hijacked by lowest common human polictical denominator.

Fiscal responsiblity abandoned for massive debt. Committment to individual rights traded in for James Dobson’s thirty pieces of silver. And most of all America’s role as the leader of the free world lost, lost in the tantrums of small minds who want bigger wars and corporate profits from those wars. 

Amen Garrison!  That IS the news from George W Bush’s America- Where all the Women and Minorites are Silenced, All the White Men make money and All the children are left behind.

“Lost in the tantrums of small minds who want bigger wars and corporate profits from those wars.”

And just when I thought that Jimboy was the dumbest and most delusional person on this thread, we have David here in a de facto admission that Michael Moore is his intellectual guru. And the part where this liberal pretends that he ever cared about conservative values is a nice touch as well.

I am proud and fortunate to be an American.  I love my country, and I loathe its current leadership!  At the turn of the milennium we had the technology and the resources and the energy and goodwill to truly begin a new chapter in world history--a careful stewardship of the planet and all its inhabitants, with no human left behind.  After a stolen election we are left with whipped up fear, international dislike and unrest, increasing poverty and despair, and a White House inhabited by a man bought and paid for by big money.  Can we turn it around?

To Mn. I’m the one that possibly could be called the knee jerk reactionist,because I don’t usually post links,sorry about that.It doesn’t mean that I don’t know anything or that I am not informed.
Never the less,I think that the russians are mostly blowing smoke up our butts about the Chechan incident.They’re strokin’us so that we won’t get in their way in the U.N. or on the world stage.As I understand it the russians have had ethnic problems with the Chechan’s for many years.I also understand that there is an economic problem as well as a territory issue.Who’s to know maybe the russians are embarassed by their part in selling weapons and making oil deals with Saddam Hussien before the war in Iraq.Ed P.

David, you speak in tongues. 

“Fiscal responsiblity abandoned for massive debt.”

You mean the vast social re-engineering projects that have been the enormous bulk of the country’s budget since about 1975?  How exactly is that, David, suddenly Bush’s responsibility?  He’s dealing with a wartime _defecit,_ not 30 years of Socialist spending.  The _debt_ you inherited from both parties.

If Bush cut your entitlements cord you and the majority Socialists in this country would impeach the man.  You wouldn’t know fiscal responsibility if it bit you.

It’s your countrymen voting themselves immeasurable largess that’s the problem, Dave, not our man Dubya.  I mean, he’s no conservative, to be sure, but what the heck are you talking about?  Maybe it’s too nuanced (read: rhetorical) to be taken serious- I mean, literally.

“Committment to individual rights traded in for James Dobson’s thirty pieces of silver.”

Would that be those pesky private school vouchers or that nasty empowering of the private sector, Dave?

“And most of all America’s role as the leader of the free world lost,”

Whoa!  You Prairie Home Leftists don’t WANT us to be leaders of the free world, Dave.  What’s up with that?

“...lost in the tantrums of small minds who want bigger wars and corporate profits from those wars.”

Yep, jes’ us small minds askin’ fer big corporashuns and lotsa killin’.  [spit]

You’re an arrogant jerk to talk down to others like this, Dave, and I resent your remarks.  But at least you, lock-step with about a hundred other close-minded Leftist shills and lackeys in this thread, illustrate perfectly the sort of dysfunctional approach your kind takes to dealing with important issues honestly.  If one of you would ditch the rhetoric and get down to business, the Left wouldn’t have credibility chasm it’s dug for itself over the last few decades.  Thank’s for the verification; at least that’s something. 

“George W Bush’s America- Where all the Women and Minorites are Silenced, All the White Men make money and All the children are left behind.”

Go look up JIMBOY, Dave; you want a King too…

RE:  increasing poverty

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

For most Americans, the word “poverty” suggests destitution: an inability to provide a family with nutritious food, clothing, and reasonable shelter. But only a small number of the 35 million persons classified as “poor” by the Census Bureau fit that description. While real material hardship certainly does occur, it is limited in scope and severity. Most of America’s “poor” live in material conditions that would be judged as comfortable or well-off just a few generations ago. Today, the expenditures per person of the lowest-income one-fifth (or quintile) of households equal those of the median American household in the early 1970s, after adjusting for inflation.

Bravo Keillor!!!!!!!!  You so rock.  If only Kerry had half the balls of you.  How can people so love this ogre as if he were Jesus incarnate?!?  Oh yeah, the Jesus thing, that’s it.  He owns religion too—if you hate Bush, you not only hate America you hate God too.  How did we get to this sad point as a country??

“Oh yeah, the Jesus thing, that’s it.”

How’d we get to this sad point?  From the looks of it, Perry Townsend, you helped.

“George W Bush’s America- Where all the Women and Minorites are Silenced, All the White Men make money and All the children are left behind.”

Would you care to make your case for this? Give us thorough and specific support for your assertion - with examples of an act or acts by the Bush administration that has led to the silencing of women and minorities, and where ALL the white men make money and where ALL the children are left behind.” (Mind you, on September 11th, 2001, many children were left fatherless and/or motherless, and mind you that Bill Clinton let Bin Laden get away, while even establishing a foreign policy that encouraged Islamist agression.)

[NOTE: Memos recently obtained by Dan Rather/the DNC will not be accepted.]

“How can people so love this ogre as if he were Jesus incarnate?!?  Oh yeah, the Jesus thing, that’s it.  He owns religion too—if you hate Bush, you not only hate America you hate God too.  How did we get to this sad point as a country??”

Look up the term “strawman” in the dictionary and it’ll read, “See also posts written by one Perry Townsend”.

JIMBOY gasps:

“We need diverse opinions and a consensus for the countries direction not another four years of my way or the highway. This country has become what it has by being a country of inclusion. george bush will not take us there.”

Diversity and consensus; Dubya can’t take us where we’ve already been.  Classic.

I’m putting that one on the mantle, JIMBOY.  Not going to touch a single superscripted “th” or tabbed indent, nosiree.

THAT item is among the best arguments for abandoning state schooling I’ve ever seen.

RE: How’d we get to this sad point?

In a phrase, “judicial imperialism.”

See: http://www.aei.org/news/newsID.19140/news_detail.asp

Look up “denial of the obvious” and you’ll find references to York and 6Gun.  If you’re willing to ignore the grossly prevalent attitudes of your pal Bush & his fanclub, just dig that head a little further into the sand.

Dear Perry, do present The Obvious, will you?  Bet you twenty you can kick this Keillor guy all over the stage…

Bush is a fraud and an idiot, how’s that?  I would never kick Garrison K. & that’s all the time I’m giving to this ridiculous conversation.  Have fun.

I appreciate your wit, your passion, and your sentiments, but empires come and empires go.  This may be our time when the republic finally dies, though our empire, such as it is, looks as though it will be short-lived.  $1 billion per day in Iraq?  Enormous tax cuts for the wealthy?  Who’s paying for that?  China, Japan, Europe, all the investors in our lemondade stand over here.  But when our investors decide that our lemonade has more in common with powdered “Olde Tyme Lemonade” than the real thing--when they see a better return for their investment elsewhere (the EEC, China), they’ll take their money and poof will go the sails of our economy.  The empire will find itself in bankruptcy court.  It’s a money world, and the signs are not good over here--number of American patents, national savings rates, imports vs. exports.  Let it die.  Plenty of pleasant, more democratic places to live in this world.  Go abroad while they’ll still have us.  Learn a foreign language.  Broaden your horizons.  Forget about this place like we’ve mostly forgotten about Rome. 

Besides, isn’t it time we illegal aliens gave it back to the original owners from whom we took it, uninvited?  It’s the least we can do considering we can’t even keep track of the few billion dollars that the U.S. BIA was supposedly managing for all them Amurrkin Injuns.  You see, I used to feel like Mr. Keillor--that’s why I appreciate his words and his emotion.  I really do.  But over my 53 years of life, I’ve learned to stop caring about this place the way you stop caring about an alcoholic member of the family who refuses to face themselves.  Sooner or later you stop believing the lies about “going on the wagon.” Do what you will, America.  Sorry, but I’m just not interested.

“Bin Laden-Bin Laden,” where have I heard that name before?  Oh yeah, he’s the guy that masterminded the plot that killed thousands on 9/11.  Let’s see, the much-despised Clinton let him escape, right?  Since September 2001, we’ve been told that every agency in this administration wa bent on capturing him.  It seems that Bush and company, in spite of the combined resources of the U.S. Military, the focused enrgies of our espionage agencies, occupying several Middle-Eastern countries (not to mention SAUDI ARABIA, the home of 85% of the 9/11 terrorists and CLOSE PERSONAL FRIENDS of the Bush family, the Bin Laden family, long time business partners of George W. Bush) this scion of the Free World hasn’t caught him either.  It couldn’t be that as soon as he’s caught the American people will tire of the double talk of “security issues,” and a martial law mentality and Bush will have to face up to his REAL failures.  Osama Bin Laden does make an attractive poster boy for te Republican party when all they really have to offer is a platform of fear-mongering.

Oh yeah, Clinton lied about a BJ.  Nobody died!  Over a thousand of our young military people have died and ten’s of thousands of Iraqis have died as a result of Bush’s lie.  Is he trying to outdo Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin lie?  That lie cost us over 58,000 American lives.

Oprah Winfrey appears to be quite delusional.  Supposedly, she recently gave away free cars to her entire studio audience.  Read about it here:
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20040913/D852SP380.html

As we’ve recently learned from that fountain of wisdom and knowledge we know as “David” (and blessing us with his presence here in this thread), what Oprah doesn’t seem to understand is that being both a woman and a minority, the Bush administration has silenced her, and therefore she does not have a talk show. And what’s worse is that since “all the white men make money”, and she being neither white nor a man, she has no money, and therefore will not be able to pay for those cars when the bill comes due.

David, would you please do Oprah a favor and clue her in to your reality? It’d be a nice thing to do, and I know that liberals like to do nice things (albeit with other people’s money).

Bon Voyage Mark.

If you find a better country, do write us.

Michael,
You’re projecting your own inadequacies.  Maybe you need to see a good shrink.

“Over a thousand of our young military people have died and ten’s of thousands of Iraqis have died as a result of Bush’s lie.”

And your support for Bush having lied would be? (Wait. Let me guess. Some documents recently obtained by CBS/the DNC prove it.)

“You wrongly attributed the “Repeat after me...” post to ME”

Nope, I was replying to ShootingBlanks, eh I mean 6Gun. He jumped into my reply to you.

“2) You also falsely stated that you didn’t say a thing about CBS, but I quote from your post:  “CBS is not ‘our side”.”

Again, follow the discussion. I was talking about your loaded question on that point, and 6Gun chimed in with CBS and credibility, something irrelevent to the point.

The only inadequacy in my life is sitting in the White House.  Good try, but to get my goat, you have to know where it’s tied!  Try intimidating somone more vulnerable!

When Neo-Cons can’t answer a charge, they attack the individual.  Ad hominem is effective.  It isn’t at all ethical, it takes no great intellect to launch it, in fact the more ruthless the attack, it seems the less intelligent the attacker.  But yes, it is effective, until people catch on.

“Nope, I was replying to ShootingBlanks, eh I mean 6Gun. He jumped into my reply to you.”

Yep, you clearly did attribute wrongly. It’s as clear as those forged documents. It’s obvious and you’re an ass for trying to save face.

“Again, follow the discussion. I was talking about your loaded question on that point, and 6Gun chimed in with CBS and credibility, something irrelevent to the point.”

Again, I don’t need to you telling me to follow the discussion when in fact it is clear that your were wrong and now you’re not man enough to admit it.

Also, a loaded question is NOT defined as being any question posed that makes a liberal squirm and reflexively attempt to change the subject.

Thanks, Mr. Keillor, for saying what so many of us believe. And for giving us a chance to speak our minds.

The regime is beginning to crumble, even with the around-the-clock effort to keep “Bubble Boy” Bush from reality. Be sure to watch this evening’s news. Bush was challenged by two citizens today at his photo opps to explain how he could allow the assault weapons ban to expire and about his refusal to allow importation of cheaper drugs from Canada. Bush did his best imitation of the old “deer in the headlights” (or is it goat?) and refused to respond to either question. Every American—regardless of party—should shout out those questions from now until Bush crawls back down his Crawford spider hole. (50 days and counting ....)

I also must say that, on this blog, what the Bushies lack in logic and common sense, they make up in volume (as always). Just on this page, there have been 14 people who have posted comments in the last three hours (until 4:33 pm) and only three of them have been pro-Bush. But those three have accounted for over 60% of the posts, sometimes stumbling one after the other in jumbled (and useless) verbiage.

You know, maybe if Bush’s economy were as strong as they’d like us to believe, those three (York, 6Gun and 16 to 2) would be gainfully employed. Of course, they may now be employed as Karl Rove Kadets: the “shouters for insanity and inanity”. When Kerry is elected President, I won’t mind if some of my tax dollars are used to pay for adult day care for those babblers.  But I’d want to be sure that the daycare staff are immunized from rabies and “foot in mouth” disease first.

When I logged on earlier, Disgusted Republican for Kerry had listed ten “flip flops” from our Commander-In-Deep-Shit. I’ll see those ten and raise him/her 24. The article below was published by Associated Press today (on my Netscape web browser). Hey, you three right-wing Ratketeers, read ‘em and weep.
---------
Both Candidates Often Shift Positions
By TOM RAUM

WASHINGTON (AP) - While working relentlessly to portray Democratic Sen. John Kerry as a “flip-flopper,” President Bush has his own history of changing his position, from reversals on steel tariffs and “nation-building” to reasons for invading Iraq.

Most recently, Bush did an about-face on whether the proposed new director of national intelligence should have full budget-making powers as the bipartisan Sept. 11 commission recommended. Bush at first indicated no, then last week said yes.

Just as GOP efforts to question Kerry’s military record in Vietnam helped revive nagging questions about Bush’s service in the Air National Guard, the “flip flop” attacks on Kerry could boomerang against an incumbent running on his record and reputation as a straight talker....If he is a flip-flopper, Kerry has company.

In 2000, Bush argued against new military entanglements and nation building. He’s done both in Iraq.

He opposed a Homeland Security Department, then embraced it.

He opposed creation of an independent Sept. 11 commission, then supported it. He first refused to speak to its members, then agreed only if Vice President Dick Cheney came with him.

Bush argued for free trade, then imposed three-year tariffs on steel imports in 2002, only to withdraw them after 21 months.

Last month, he said he doubted the war on terror could be won, then reversed himself to say it could and would.

A week after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Bush said he wanted Osama bin Laden “dead or alive.” But he told reporters six months later, “I truly am not that concerned about him.” He did not mention bin Laden in his hour-long convention acceptance speech.

“I’m a war president,” Bush told NBC’s “Meet the Press” on Feb. 8. But in a July 20 speech in Iowa, he said: “Nobody wants to be the war president. I want to be the peace president.”

Bush keeps revising his Iraq war rationale: The need to seize Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction until none were found; liberating the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator; fighting terrorists in Iraq not at home; spreading democracy throughout the Middle East. Now it’s a safer America and a safer world.

“No matter how many times Senator Kerry flip-flops, we were right to make America safer by removing Saddam Hussein from power,” he said last week in Missouri.

Bush has changed his positions on new Clean Air Act restrictions, protecting the Social Security surplus, tobacco subsidies, the level of assistance to help combat AIDs in Africa, campaign finance overhaul and whether to negotiate with North Korean officials.

But while Bush’s policy shifts have been numerous and notable, Democrats haven’t succeeded yet in tarring him as a flip flopper, said American University political scientist James Thurber.... Bush aides brush off suggestions by Democrats that the real flip-flopper is Bush, not Kerry.

EDITOR’S NOTE - Tom Raum has covered Washington for The Associated Press since 1973, including five presidencies.
--------

O.K, Kerry supporters, we outnumber the Karl Rove nut-jobs 11 to 3 on this blog. So let’s keep rotating in and out, giving some of us time to keep registering new Kerry voters and talking quiet common sense to our neighbors. There are a lot of angry Americans out there right now and, with the expiration of the assault weapons ban today, there are suddenly a whole lot more who feel less safe tonight. Let’s keep turning that righteous unease into votes for regime change. (50 days and counting ....)

York, you are using a reasoning fallacy known as “Begging the question.” Try responding to the issue.  Bush lied and we all know it.  Some just won’t admit it.

How about the other points in the post?

“Yes. They are shilling for the Democratic party.  Case in point: Memo-gate.  You want more?  Do a lexis-nexis search and look at their treatment of Bush versus their treatment of Kerry.”

Only in the convoluted minds of the hard-right would mere allegation automatically equal evidence. Where does it say the DNC works with CBS?

“You changed the subject. Okay? Got it?”

I’m getting used to it now from you righties. When you have no reply, accuse them of changing the subjects. You asked liberals a loaded question, so I asked you one back. Instead of replying you accused me of changing the subject, the same thing you accused the liberals of doing. I’m beginning to see a pattern here.

“So did the North Vietnamese. And they liked it. And they used it.”

How is that Kerry’s fault? How many times have the Iraqis/Al-Qaeda quoted George Bush’s bumbling lines? Oh my, Bush is ‘giving comfort and aid to the enemy’! Let’s fire him!

“Vietnam vets read it, and have been smeared and disgusted by it.”

Sure, if you twist it to read that way. Thankfully thinking Vietnam vets knew what Kerry was truthfully saying, and thanked him for saying it.

“And I couldn’t help but notice that you selectively quoted it.”

Ah, but I quoted entire sentences, unlike you guys who removed words from the beginning of the quote ("They told the stories at times they had..") and inserted your own accusations. The entire testimony is rather long, if you want to read it you can easily find it. Go ahead, read the whole thing, there’s nothing damning there.

“That’s why your new name shall henceforth be “Moderates 4 Selective Truth”.”

Name calling hurts your arguments, not me.

Why in heaven’s name would any conservative vote for George Bush?  He has total control of congress and can have passed any piece of legislation he wants without debate.  Has he served conservative values?  No.  He has served corporate interests.  The administration and Congress have record budget deficits, a prescription drug benefit that aids the drug companies but not the taxpayers, and has gutted environmental laws.

They start an unjustified war in Iraq that has cost thousands of lives, billions of dollars, and our strategic alliances.  There were cheaper ways to deal with Hussein without getting into this quagmire.

A whitehouse official exposes a CIA agent, which is a felony.  An act of treason.  But the President does nothing to fire the traitor in his adminstration.

I don’t understand why any conservative stomachs the hypocrisy of the Bush administration and his cronies.

This conservative is voting Libertarian.  Vote for Badnarik this November.

“Yep, you clearly did attribute wrongly. It’s as clear as those forged documents. It’s obvious and you’re an ass for trying to save face.”

Oooh, name-calling! I ain’t gonna stoop your level bub. When did I attribute that to you?

“Again, I don’t need to you telling me to follow the discussion when in fact it is clear that your were wrong and now you’re not man enough to admit it.”

Sign… You guys need to learn to debate. Keep repeating charges isn’t debate.

“Also, a loaded question is NOT defined as being any question posed that makes a liberal squirm and reflexively attempt to change the subject.”

I never said that, you should APOLOGIZE for attributing that to me.

Loaded question - A question with a false or questionable presupposition. Two otherwise unrelated points are conjoined and treated as a single proposition. Typically used to trick someone into implying something they did not intend. I.E., “how do you feel about George Bush lying to get us to war?”

Your question “how they feel about their side having been caught in a fraud to influence the outcome of a Presidential election.”

If they answer, you would imply that they agree that the DNC is involved with the still-unsubstantiated forgery if the memo. Thankfully liberals are not that dumb, and smell your dirty tricks a mile away.

Man!  There’s gonna be hell to pay on Nov. 3rd when all these crybaby leftists wake up to a lump of coal in their stockings.  They’re gonna riot, they’re gonna be implacable.  Most of them don’t know how to compromise and reach consensus, so right away they’re looking at 4 more years of alienation, and who’s to blame?  Why, the devil himself - every perjorative in the dictionary. 

Watch out ANSWER, watch out MOVEON, watch out George Soros.  You’re headed for a rough ride.  And not a one of you will stop for a moment and question the mishmash you call a philosophy.  Nope.  It’s going to be all THEIR fault.  Just like it always is with you people.

“Conclusory allegations and denials, speculation, improbable inferences, unsubstantiated assertions, and legalistic argumentation are not adequate substitutes for specific facts . . . .”

Straw v. Clinipad Corp.  2002 WL 32060340, *1 (N.D.Tex.) (N.D.Tex.,2002)

Hey thanks for the link to the dream center site,about all that Bush has done for our country.It was most excellent.Really puts a perspective on the bush reign .Ed P.

“you are using a reasoning fallacy known as “Begging the question.” Try responding to the issue.  Bush lied and we all know it.  Some just won’t admit it.”

Excuse me Michael, but according to my copy of “Attacking Faulty Reasoning” (an authoritative college text on the subject of fallacious reasoning by T. Edward Damer, Wadsworth Publishing), on page 106 the definition of “Question-Begging” is the following:

“This fallacy consists in making a claim true by definition, by subtly importing a highly questionable definition of a key word into one of the premises.”

1) I made no claim whatsoever.
2) I gave no premise or premises.
3) I gave no highly questionable definition, in fact I gave no definition whatsoever.

Not only did I commit no fallacy, but I didn’t even come close to “Question-Begging”. All that I did do was ask you to support your very serious accusation. You didn’t do that. You just repeated your accusation, once again offered no support for it, and concluding that since I and most other people are not stupid enough to take your word for it, we’re simply not admitting this apparent yet unsupported truth. Michael, your obvious expertise in the area of fallacious reasoning should have already told you that since it’s YOUR assertion, then it’s up to YOU to support it. This is not fallacy Michael. It’s a rejection OF it.

Now, I have plans for the rest of the evening and sadly I won’t be able to embarrass you anymore until perhaps tomorrow. Until then…

Of course there is al quaida in Iraq now,you foob.Al quaida is going to where the hated enemy is conducting operations.The hated enemy is any one who is not islamic.The whole middle east hates our kind of countrys.This is where they will gather supporters and train and test their methods of war.It works the same way for us.We have to have wars to test our weapons and to work out the bugs and to have a reason to inflate the DOD budget.We have to have a war to scare the hell out of the public,so that we can get carte blanche to do anything that we want to,does the Patriot Act ring any bells?
We have shaken up the nest in afghanistan and they are on the move to other places in the world.Hell,there is even al quaida in the U.S. as fund raisers and who knows what else.I said shaken up the nest in Afghanistan.I did not say that we have accomplished very much,or that we are in control.We have denied open bases for training in Afghanistan,that is all.Hell,Pakistan is only helping us at all because they are guilty of transhipping and directly exporting nuclear technology to terrorist nations.Ed P.

Oh, darn those College Republicans. Do you suppose the RNC pays them by the word?

As a bit of fresh (non-delusional) air and a counterpoint to “16 to 2“‘s statement above, below is a link to a pretty comprehensive analysis of the polls done during and after the Republican convention. Contrary to the premature coronation of “Bush the Inconsequential” to a second term that the Republicans want us to believe based on very bad polling by Time and Newsweek (the deficiencies of which are reviewed in the link), this analysis shows that we are indeed still in a horserace between a Massachusetts thoroughbred and a Texas gelding that’s one race away from the glue factory.

The link to the full analysis is as follows:

http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=183679
------
The heading and first two paragraphs of the analysis are as follows:

Public Opinion Watch - September 9, 2004

by Ruy Teixeira
September 9, 2004

(covering polls and related articles from the week of August 30–September 5)

In this edition of Public Opinion Watch:
• Bush’s Convention Bounce Worst Ever for Incumbent President
• Adventures in Likely Voter Land

Bush’s Convention Bounce Worst Ever for Incumbent President.

(This analysis reviews three surveys:)
1) SRBI poll of 1,128 registered voters for Time magazine, released September 3 (conducted August 31–September 2)
2) Princeton Survey Research poll of 1,008 adults for Newsweek, released September 4 (conducted September 2–3)
3) Gallup poll of 1,018 adults for CNN/USA Today, released September 6 (conducted September 3–5)

The new Gallup poll, conducted entirely after the GOP convention and therefore the first poll that truly measures Bush’s bounce, shows Bush with a very small bounce indeed: 2 points, whether you look at registered voters (RVs) or likely voters (LVs). His support among RVs has risen from 47 percent before to 49 percent after the convention, so that he now leads Kerry by a single point (49-48) rather than trailing by a point.

Note also that Bush’s 2-point bounce from his convention (which is defined as the change in a candidate’s level of support, not in margin) is the worst ever received by an incumbent president, regardless of party, and the worst ever received by a Republican candidate, whether incumbent or not (see this Gallup analysis for all the relevant historical data). In 2000, Bush received an 8-point bounce. And even his hapless father received a 5-point bounce in 1992. The poll contains other results that suggest the relative ineffectiveness of the GOP convention.
------

So enjoy Monday Night Football, all you red-blooded and blue-voting Americans. The only poll that really matters is 50 days (away) and counting ....

What an asshole you are. Are there any sane Dems out there?

To the author of the post beginning with “As a bit of fresh (non-delusional) air...”

There’s one important fact left out of your post: Kerry’s going to lose.

Pretending otherwise may help you sleep a little better in the meantime, but after that, you’ll be spending the next four years whining like a baby because there’s going to be less of the government tit for you to suck on.

I laugh at your inevitable and well-deserved defeat.

A progressive website discounts current polling showing Kerry trailing Bush.  What are the odds. 

A progressive swallows the analysis hook, line and sinker.  What are the odds.

The reasons we went to war were to test our military methods, inflate defense budgets, and scare the public. 

Do you people even read this stuff before you hit “enter?”

http://r.empstudios.com/Article/Journey/gribben.txt

“The main program of the academic dogmatists revolves around what could be termed the five “D’s”:

1. Deny--the existence of any radical “Politically Correct” presence on cam pus. Deny the possibility of “facts,” “proof,” and objective “truth.”

2. Discredit—people of good will who want to make the present structure work fairly and effectively. Isolate each resister and attack his/her character.

3. Disinform—allege “misrepresentation” at every juncture.

4. Divide—students and faculty, faculty and citizens, blacks and whites, Hispanics and Anglos, women and men.

5. Discard—truth, collegiality, standards.

One of our favourite “Quiet Americans” here in the UK, Garrison Keillor reminds me of what I love about the USA. And I need to be reminded.

My last trip to the States was two years ago. It took in a wedding in Ohio of an Anglo/Nigerian to an Afro/American girl, who met during their medical training in a hospital here in North Wales.

The welcome I got from both families was memorable - the Nigerian side in their magnificent gowns and the American side, so proud of their daughter’s recent qualification in medicine and so warm in taking me into their home and family.

This is what America means to me. Many cultures, many nationalities, many races, merging many traditions, under one flag, under one freedom.

Which made me wonder why the guy with the two large dogs and chain link fence who lived just opposite their place didn’t know who they were or were their house might be when I asked for directions. “Are they black?” he asked and in an ugly gesture lost interest when he heard the answer. It didn’t remove the joy that I had shared at the wedding reception in the building on the County Fairground the day before. Who was one guy? We all have that one guy.

It was followed by a rambling, unplanned road trip along the Ohio River, through Virginia to Boston. Playing golf with whoever I met along the way. And I met plenty of people and they were all great, and kind and welcoming. Democrats, Republicans and a whole bunch of crazy Libertarians, who made me a member of their hunting cabin and I don’t know why - because I don’t hunt. Yet, they were that hospitable, it didn’t matter.

I drank ice cold Guiness under West Virgian night skies on balconies and in open air theatres listening to singer/songwriters being poets about their love for their country and for its people. Singing also of their fears for their country and for their people.

I sat on the campus lawns and talked to students who also loved their country but didn’t seem to understand much what their country was. They thought it was one thing and I was seeing it as being many things. Beyond was a world that seemed even less understood.

The same conversation with same single dimensional responses after the parade on the main square of the military academy.

But everywhere the Stars and Stripes - surely one of the most beautiful of all flags - fluttered outside every building and outside every house. In memory of the tragedy of the Twin Towers and in honour of the determination of the citizens of a country that wanted to stand together.

Then as I drove North, there two sick, mentally deformed guys shooting randomly from the trunk of a car, indiscrimately at whoever passed or stood at a gas station or shopping mall. The fear was everywhere. It was on the faces of people. It was irrational, but it was a real fear.

And as I talked to the workers in the fast food outlets and in the motels, and in the streets of the small towns, I learnt something of the poverty that is just below the surface for many. Poverty has its own fear.

At a writers meeting, I heard of the yearning there was for an ideal that seemed to be eluding this great nation of yours. “I have seen the best minds of my generation/Run naked through the streets” I certainly misquote Ginsberg. I thought we were through that many decades ago, had grown beyond that. It seemed I was wrong.

This trip gave me an answer to the question that I had taken with me. Why was the rhetoric about the possible invasion of Iraq so different in the States to that of Europe and to that of ourselves here in the mountains and on the coasts of Wales?  It gave me an answer, but it was not one that gave me hope.

I find it eerie that Vietnam is so much part of this election. Of course, I knew it was etched on our psyche. It should be. It was like a great sickness. It stays with all of us old enough to have had it mark its ugly scar - even for those of us who took no part or lost no sons or brothers.

I thought, though, that we had come out of it with clearer minds. I thought your country had grown through it, had become more aware and more knowing of the world’s peoples. I thought.

So I needed to hear this post from Garrison Keillor. I needed to hear that American voice of quiet reason that I have admired all my long life. I had to know that what I felt at the end of that trip was being felt by Americans. There is something that is not healthy working in the state of the nation. Garrison Keillor reminds me that it has not yet infected the heart of all of its people.

That gives hope. Whatever happens in 52 days time.

Keith, that was very worth reading. Thank you. There is much hope here.

“I find it eerie that Vietnam is so much part of this election. Of course, I knew it was etched on our psyche.”

Vietnam is not etched on our psyche.  John Kerry willfully made Vietnam his one and only argument for why he should be elected.  He’s the one that’s stuck in Vietnam, not us. So it didn’t work, no one is buying it, and now the DNC is desperate.

As for the rest of your self-righteous bs, I’m really glad you’re not living here in the states.  We need a lot less people like you. You belong with all of those limp-wristed Europeans. You ever bad-mouth this country to the wrong person’s face, like mine for example, and you’re going to get your soft liberal ass beat to a bloody pulp.

As for Joanne, I hope you’re good in bed, because otherwise I can’t imagine what use you would be to anyone.

Whoa, Simon, that’s the first post I’ve seen that actually beats the Left at their own victimizing, whinnying, lying preemption. 

It’s enough to make even me wince, but I know exactly where you’re coming from.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/

Read it and weep college boys.

http://www.electionprojection.com/elections2004.html

Read it and weep lefto-weenies.

You see, Simon T, I have a great affection for your country and for your people. My post was meant to convey that, whilst also conveying my concern about what is happening.

So should you also love your country, but to write as you do suggest you have no respect for it. Why otherwise would you want it to be seen here on this wild, wind swept early Tuesday morning in Wales portrayed in the way that your post portrays it?

“You ever bad-mouth this country to the wrong person’s face, like mine for example, and you’re going to get your soft liberal ass beat to a bloody pulp.”

Simon, you can criticise my country, and Europe, freely and to my face. I know their weaknesses. I know their strengths. I do not feel insecure about it and will answer you qith frankness and without rancour.

If you ever talk to any of our women in the way you just addressed Joanne,however, then you will find I am neither as limp wristed or as liberal as you presume. I’m afraid that this is a British weakness.

Jimbob threatens to off a whole class of “repubs” - approximately 50% of the population in the U.S. - and the leftos are silent.

Now this. 

I think we have an equal protection issue here. 

RE: 
If you ever talk to any of our women in the way you just addressed
Joanne,however, then you will find I am neither as limp wristed or as
liberal as you presume. I’m afraid that this is a British weakness.

Simon

My neighbour’s son died in Iraq four and a half weeks ago.

No, he is not one of your thousand. The total number of US and Allied deaths passed this total some time ago. We are a little sorry that this INCLUSIVE total was not marked in the same way as the equally tragic one thousand is now marked.

We realise that some of our limp wristed British guys are out there with your own countrymen. Do you?

Yo,york.Are you privy to information that no one else knows about?Has anybody been charged or proven to have falsified these records? Maybe you are clarivoyent.You can’t just dump crap in here and make it be true.Ed P.

Matt are you saying that it is ok for a CEO to run a company into the ground and then get the golden parachute.A couple of hundred million dollars and on their way they go? I want a deal like that myself.Sign me up ok Matt? Ed P.

6Gun,

In the past I wasted a lot of time trying to reason with liberals. Those days are pretty much over for me. One day I realized that they were an unreasonable people that were so logically and psychologically inept as to be incable of coherent thought or reasonable conclusions. There is something else going on in the liberal mind. I don’t know exactly what it is, but I do know that it’s disgusting.

They haven’t principled arguments. They deny true facts and assert false ones. Any source of information just slightly to the right of Fidel Castro is proclaimed to be unreliable rightwing propaganda.

They bad-mouth this country that happens to be THE destination for immigrants the world over. And whenver someone dares to disagree with them on ANY issue, they pull out one of their favorite names that are supposed to win the argument (racist, homophobe, sexist, etc.).

When they are in charge of the country, our enemies begin to pounce, because our enemies know that liberals are weak-kneed, weak-willed, spineless, clueless, self-righteous appeasers.

But most disgusting is their version of civil rights which includes the horrifying nightmare of infanticide. And they think that THEY are the good people.

York,
That is one answer.  It is also classified as atempting to refute a claim you have no answer for by asking another question and placing responsibility on the questioner.  You get a B+.
And you STILL haven’t answered the other charges.  That drops it to a C+.

What is it with you Neo-Cons?  Is the concept of free speech that alien to you?  Can we no longer disagree with you and still be patriotic Americans?  Is the concept of open and honest discussion lost in the mire of a self imposed victimization complex that anyone who asks why things are the way they are is threatening your machismo?  Is your only response like that of your chief executive, rant, rave, bluster and bully?

I have the right to disagree.  I have the right to hate our Selected President and his policies.  If you don’t think so, check out the Constitution.  Bush has successfully limited the kinds of free speech he must listen too from the citizens of the country he purportedly leads by establishing “Free Speech Zones” mile away from where he speaks.  Those who disagree are shipped miltothese zones.  The funny part is, the whole country used to be a free speech zone, especially when we want to address allegedly elected officials.

You may be right by the way.  Kerry may lose.  I fear for the whole country then.  Those of you who feel you want protection from “those other people” may well get your wish.  It will be a dark time for America if it happens. 

But I refuse to give up just yet, in spite of whatever grand scale foreign relations stunt Bush has planned for late October.  Think North Korea and remember I said so.  I pray I’m wrong!

I apologize for the typos in the previous post.

Ed
You write in an earlier post of al Quaeda “The hated enemy is any one who is not islamic”.

I don’t think that this is true. They are equally at war with any Muslim who does not agree with their “solutions”. They are simply terrorists, who clothe their evil in the borrowed clothes of an interpretation of the Koran that follows no mainstream Islamic teaching. They simply proclaim “You ever bad-mouth this religion to the wrong person’s face, like mine for example, and you’re going to get your soft Christian ass beat to a bloody pulp.” I know of no Muslim in the UK - “that happens to be THE destination for immigrants the world over”, also - that believes al Quaeda is fighting a truly religous war.

Sorry, that should have read “You ever bad-mouth this religion to the wrong person’s face, like mine for example, and you’re going to get your soft Christian or Liberal Muslim ass beat to a bloody pulp.”

Simon gets to the heart of the problem:

“...liberals [are] an unreasonable people that were so logically and psychologically inept as to be incable of coherent thought or reasonable conclusions. There is something else going on in the liberal mind. I don’t know exactly what it is, but I do know that it’s disgusting.”

Leftism isn’t a valid political position; it’s where society’s principally challenged go for aid and support...with the emphasis on aid.

I’ve said that for nearly ten years now, as the Left systematically challenges every value known to man worth conserving.  The Left adores graft, dole, thought policing, political correctness and Joanne’s Living Constitution.  They’re nihilists, Simon, on this forum chanting John Lenin, inventing facts, abusing reason.

Think about it: Take what we’ve known since before 1800 was an experiment in self-government.  Let is simmer with life’s inevitable liars, cheats, and malcontents to whom self responsibility and self sufficiency are abnormalities that exist only as long as it takes to vote them in complete dependency.  Remove absolute principle, a sense of history and honor, and stir.

You end up with 2004’s broth of postmodern relativism