Recall the Election Day exit polls that suggested John Kerry had won a convincing victory? The media readily dismissed those polls and little has been heard about them since. Many Americans, however, were suspicious. Although President Bush prevailed by 3 million votes in the official, tallied vote count, exit polls had projected a margin of victory of 5 million votes for… return to article
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Reader Comments (403)We “conspiracy theorists” would have an easier time believing that the numerous problems reported on and after Election Day in Ohio amounted to nothing more than a series of unfortunate events if Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell had been more cooperative in allowing scrutiny of all facets of the election process.
Instead, not only has Mr. Blackwell restricted and removed access to poll books, ballots, voting machines and other items, and ignored state law regading conduct of recounts, but he has also taken the unusual step of requsting a protective order to shield himself from being interviewed in connection with the conduct of the election.
Most people wait until they are on the witness stand before taking the Fifth Amendment.
Posted by KTinOhio on Feb 16, 2005 at 2:46 PM And we might be a little more receptive to listening to your concerns if we hadn’t heard over and over again how your side was already preparing to call foul over JUST these issues (Diebold machines, fraud, etc) months and months ahead of the election.
There once was a boy who cried wolf over and over…
We all know what happened to him.
Posted by A Rethug on Feb 16, 2005 at 3:06 PM To put an end to this argument about who really won in 2000, the finding was that if all votes in Florida were counted—not just selected precincts—Gore won.
The following is the relevant quote from the Washington Post/Keating document along with the link. American Enterprise Institute is used as the doc source to avoid arguments about left-wing sources.
“Rather than dimples or not-dimples, the deciding factor in the recount was
inclusion of all ballots or only a subset of ballots. And the deciding line was very simple
– if all of the ballots were counted there were enough potential Al Gore votes to give him
a victory, but any smaller subset of ballots would retain or even enlarge George W.
Bush’s margin.”http://www.aei.org/docLib/20040526_KeatingPaper.pdf
Posted by smartvoter on Feb 16, 2005 at 3:19 PM a nation of sheep begets a government of wolves.
the coup d’etat by the wolves continues…
and the sheep continue to sleep.
Posted by Spirit of '76 on Feb 16, 2005 at 3:20 PM Kurtis,Be thankful for postings like this.They are what keep the Democrats from simply rioting.
Be even more thankful we have not adopted the “win at all costs because the ends justify the means” mentality of the Re-party.one million people showed to protest Bush’s inauguration.Had we taken the attitude of the Re-party,he might have been yanked from his limousine and used for a pinata.I doubt the Re-party would have called in a B-52 strike to maintain order,which would have been their only recourse at that point.Actually,they probably would have.Fortunately democrats are decent and civilized.A Rethug,
Laugh it up if you must,but remember this:the people you voted for do not care a thing about you,only that you vote.Now that they’ve figured out how to subvert that process,they will care even less.When you are outsourced,believe me,if it makes them a profit it will be done,ponder this thought in the unemployment office:The people you voted for live in gated communities surrounded by high walls,cameras and checkpoints manned by armed guards.This is to keep you out,regardless of your vote.The only people who matter,in direct proportion,to them are those who have something to offer.Votes are nowhere near the top of that list.Fellow Democrats or even those fed up with Bush,
Read -Class-by Paul Fussell.It is a good blueprint of the psyche of the Re-party,especially the chapter called"consumption,recreation,and bibelots”.
Re-party:
reactionary
repressive
regressive
recrudescent
repulsive
revolting
Posted by wwoods on Feb 16, 2005 at 3:41 PM Eloquent Lies
In her recent response to Senator Boxer, who questioned Dr. Rice’s “respect for the truth,” Rice responded that she has “never, ever, lost respect for the truth in the service of anything.”
Too bad Senator Boxer didn’t remind Condi that “the truth” is a very slippery thing, especially when it is so artfully manipulated by smooth talkers like Rice (I really like the part about “in the service to anything.”). The whole free election myth and Iraq War boils down to eloquent lies. In the event that Donald Rumsfeld - who, according to himself, originally thought only 50,000 troops would be required to take Iraq - doesn’t know, only a nation with ill-equipped leaders would initiate an unnecessary war with ill-equipped troops.
And so, the American people (and Congress) had no more reason to believe Bush & Co. about the necessity to go-it-alone in Iraq than they do about the lie that Social Security cannot be saved or that elections in any Banana Republic, ours included, are without, well ... what’s the word? Error?The US Congress and Senate are filled with mouth pieces who allow their loyalty to a President and Party to overwhelm their respect for the truth, and the nature of our political system is such that many Americans love to hear eloquent lies in the service of anything, free elections included.
Posted by John on Feb 16, 2005 at 3:43 PM sour grape beyond any doubt. Election was decided 3 months ago. Bush won. This silliness is a waste of time.
Posted by jim on Feb 16, 2005 at 3:44 PM —quote by wwoods—
A Rethug,
Laugh it up if you must,but remember this:the people you voted for do not care a thing about you,only that you vote.Now that they’ve figured out how to subvert that process,they will care even less.When you are outsourced,believe me,if it makes them a profit it will be done,ponder this thought in the unemployment office:The people you voted for live in gated communities surrounded by high walls,cameras and checkpoints manned by armed guards.This is to keep you out,regardless of your vote.The only people who matter,in direct proportion,to them are those who have something to offer.Votes are nowhere near the top of that list.Lovely bit of melodrama there sir.
So you believe Kerry gives 2 shits about you or other Americans, eh? You believe the people you vote for don’t respect their own private property enough to keep YOU out? Yep, Im laughing.
I guess no jobs ever get outsourced during liberal presidencys, right? Are you telling me no jobs would be outsourced under a Kerry “reign”? Puh lease….
Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing…
Posted by A Rethug on Feb 16, 2005 at 3:53 PM KTinOhio said, Most people wait until they are on the witness stand before taking the Fifth Amendment.
That reminds me of when George Bush Sr. pre-pardonned Caspar Weinberger before Caspar was even indicted so that he wouldn’t have to testify about his diary that show George was indeed in the loop. Pre-pardons are a wonderful thing.
Posted by Blaze on Feb 16, 2005 at 4:06 PM A Rethug said, “And we might be a little more receptive to listening to your concerns if we hadn’t heard over and over again how your side was already preparing to call foul over JUST these issues (Diebold machines, fraud, etc) months and months ahead of the election.”
That only shows that legitimate concerns about machines that cannot be audited were ignored by both the Federal government and State governments (except for California) until it was too late. Even the Venezuelan electronic voting machines had a paper trail.
Only Republicans seem to think that a blind election is a good thing. That is why Blackwell went to court to ensure that Ohio’s machines cannot be checked.
The wolf is at your door.
Posted by Blaze on Feb 16, 2005 at 4:26 PM RE: “.one million people showed to protest Bush’s inauguration.”
Too funny.
Why not just say 5 million, or 100 million ?” Had we taken the attitude of the Re-party,he might have been yanked from his limousine and used for a pinata.”
You really believe the stinky, wimpy, riff-raff that showed to protest the inaug could have pulled this off ?
They would have been flattened before they got 100 feet from the limo.
You guys are hopeless retards.
You lost.
It’s over.
I’m loving this back-forth though :-)
Posted by Kurtis on Feb 16, 2005 at 4:31 PM To all who support and cherish American justice and democracy, you’re wasting your breath trying to convince these anti-American, democracy-killing cons of what’s going on.
These people are part of the problem, not part of the solution. They will forever have their heads buried in the sand over this, because they simply put their ideology above their country, plain and simple. They couldn’t give two $hits about democracy. They only care about power and control. These people want to END the two party system altogether.
One interesting thing about these mindless robot’s comments; You’ll never, ever see anything remotely resembling facts to back up their statements. They’re programmed to simply repeat the talking points of their controllers in the “liberal media.” They cannot think on their own. They have reptilian brains. They do not have the capacity for critical thought process.
Therefore, when you wax on at length presenting a series of facts about election fraud, they gloss right over it, and simply revert to their pre-programmed talking points. Remember, they don’t care about democracy. All they care about is ultimate power and singular control.
It is critically vital to them to ignore facts and reality, because their ideological believes crumble to dust when exposed to truth. The very fact that their ideological beliefs are so strongly opposed by the rational majority of the world necessitates that they cloak themselves in lies and deception.
Forget the 20% of the morons that have no capacity for critical thoughts. They’re doomed already. There’s absolutely no hope that you or anyone else will ever save them. They’re brains have been melted and damaged beyond repair, and they’re a hopeless cause. These people could literally stand right next to Bush while he anally raped a 5 year old boy on the front lawn of the white house on Easter Sunday morning, and they’d find a way to say “Yeah, but Clinton…..”
In short, these creatures simply have no ability to reason or fathom right from wrong. They are defective human beings, and are not worthy of consideration or conversation. Let them continue to wallow in their ignorance and shameful support of disgraceful, unlawful, unjust, sub-human behavior. Trust me, there is NOTHING that either you or I could EVER say that would sway these statues from their delusions.
Focus on enlightening those who haven’t already been destroyed. Walk away from those few that refuse to be made aware of facts and reality. They are not the majority. They pose a real threat to democracy and the single greatest threat that America has ever faced, but we will NEVER be able to sway their minds. They are what they are, and they will forever be that which they are. We will never save America from them by allowing them to continually drag us into meaningless discussions with them. We’re playing right into their hands by doing so.
Posted by Ralph Cramden on Feb 16, 2005 at 4:34 PM You know whats really gonna upset you all in the coming years is that Bush will be lauded as one of the greatest Presidents EVER. Don’t think so? You didn’t think so about Reagan either, didja.
Muahahaha…
Its just really hard for me to get worked up about all this. Maybe if I was clinically depressed or predisposed to believing every kooky conspiracy theory that came down the pike (LIHOP,MIHOP, etc, etc, etc, etc, ETC, ETC, ETC, GET THE POINT).
I guess also I could look for some hard drugs. Yep, that might do it.
8 million votes. Bush and Co STOLE 8 million votes. Without one shred of evidence linking them directly to the crime. Damn. I’d say they deserve the Presidency just on that bit of magic alone.
*snicker*
Posted by A Rethug on Feb 16, 2005 at 4:44 PM There is no reason to have any faith in our democratic system. It is simply impossible with the forces of hegemony in this country to ever be sure that anything, especially elections, is transparent. The people who read an article like this and dismiss it outright are fools. The people who read an article like this and accept it outright are fools. There is a truth out there about what happened in this election. It might even be a truth that could be investigated and found. Or, at least, perhaps there is evidence of a truth that is different from what we have been told is true. Nobody should ever accept what a small number of media sources construct as the truth.
Posted by Tom on Feb 16, 2005 at 4:52 PM My point has been made (rethug). We can pity these poor creatures, but let’s not pretend that we can ever enlighten them. They’re beyond hope. They will never be part of the solution, they will only always be part of the problem.
Posted by Ralph Cramden on Feb 16, 2005 at 5:20 PM *dances with glee*
Riight. Exactly. The enlightened libs desperately trying to show us poor rethugs the light. You all are oh so much better, smarter, more evolved than us. We are but mere dirt under your feet. Truly we could never think on our own, which is why we, like sheep, are so easily coerced by the evil incarnate that populate the White House and government today.
Yep, we’ve heard it time and again. In fact, when you continually say it, it becomes real difficult for us to take you seriously.
But by all means, keep it up. Everyone who votes in opposition to you is stupid. Keep saying it.
Posted by A Rethug on Feb 16, 2005 at 5:25 PM Eloquent Lies
In her recent response to Senator Boxer, who questioned Dr. Rice’s “respect for the truth,” Rice responded that she has “never, ever, lost respect for the truth in the service of anything.”
Too bad Senator Boxer didn’t remind Condi that “the truth” is a very slippery thing, especially when it is so artfully manipulated by smooth talkers like Rice (I really like the part about “in the service to anything.”). The current free and fair election issue, like the war in Iraq,boils down to eloquent lies. In the event that Donald Rumsfeld - who, according to himself, originally thought only 50,000 troops would be required to take Iraq - doesn’t know, only a nation with ill-equipped leaders would initiate an unnecessary war with ill-equipped troops.
And so, the American people (and Congress) had no more reason to believe Bush & Co. about the necessity to go-it-alone in Iraq than they do about the lie that Social Security cannot be saved without privatization or that elections in any Banana Republic, ours included, are without, well ... what word is it, exactly? Error?
The US Congress and Senate are filled with mouth pieces who allow their loyalty to a President and Party to overwhelm their respect for the truth, and many Americans, because of the way our “system” of government is structured and our society misinformed - love to hear eloquent lies in the service of anything, free and fair elections included.
Posted by john on Feb 16, 2005 at 5:26 PM Mussolini once said, “Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power”. If those who wish to brush every inconsistency aside for their mental ease don’t wake up, we will have a fully developed Fascist State right here in the USA. Go to oldamericancentury.org and read their information on the “14 Points of Fascism”. We’re already well on our way.
To those who continue to say “get over it”, why don’t you prove you’re more than a parrot and start REALLY researching what happened and is happening. 8.9 Billion dollars missing in Iraq, the rape of Social Security, the screwing over of older people with the Medicare fiasco…
Just so you know, everytime you use that phrase, all we can see in our minds is a picture of German soldiers at Nuremburg saying, “I was only following orders”. When will you realize that Democrats honestly don’t give a damn whether Kerry lost to Bush, it’s that our country has lost to that sodomizer of our republic once again and deep, deep doo-doo is now coming, thanks to all of you “get over it” geniuses.
Posted by Margaret on Feb 16, 2005 at 5:38 PM Nice post Tom. Ralph Cramden, I remember you as being funnier.
Posted by Norton on Feb 16, 2005 at 5:40 PM Brenda/Kurtis/Rethug: Who is paying you to interject your comments? And what’s the deal? Is this the careers you have envisioned for yourselves? Is there absolutely no way for you to earn a remotely honest living?
Posted by Curious on Feb 16, 2005 at 5:43 PM //Nice post Tom. Ralph Cramden, I remember you as being funnier. //
I’m not Tom. And frankly, I don’t see much humor in watching the end of American democracy unfold before my very eyes.
Margaret,Forget them. They ain’t gonna lift a finger. As I said earlier, they MUST avoid the truth, because to embrace it would be the end of their ideological belief systems, since they’re entirely based on lies and deception. They’ll never seek the truth, they’ll never acknowledge it when it’s presented to them. They are part of the problem. Move on. 80% of the population is not as diseased and defective as they are.
Posted by Ralph Cramden on Feb 16, 2005 at 5:44 PM The most appaling thing to me is the fact that reason does not count any more. Republicans-Conservatives-ReligiousZealots-WhateverWorse just make any stupid remark, as opposed to mountains of evidence, while the rest of the people (actually, the majority) sits back and watch this gang of criminals chew up their democracy.
Posted by Ricardo on Feb 16, 2005 at 6:05 PM Thanks, Ralph. Just for the record, I don’t think all Republicans are stupid anymore than I think all Democrats are smart. We’re all just Americans. The problem is when objectivity gives way to empty slogans and millions of well-meaning people are led down the primrose path to destruction. It’s just very sad to see our country going down the toilet.
Don’t you fool yourself for one minute, those who don’t support Bush will be the first rounded up once (God willing, they never succeed again) Al Quaida nukes a few major cities in the US. The First Ammendment will be done away with as well as the Fourth (search and seizure). The press has already become nothing more than a mouthpiece of the Republican party. Liberal media? Absolutely a thing of the past!
One more note on “get over it”, Republicans… Christine Gregoire is the governor of Washington, so follow your own advice!
The one thing I must say that I really look forward to is when all the corruption is revealed and Bush leaves office in disgrace, just like Richard Nixon!
Posted by Margaret on Feb 16, 2005 at 6:13 PM It is clear that this election was stolen. Anyone who is familiar with the exit polling numbers, electronic voting, and the Bush regime know this to be true.
Since the corporate media is now so corrupt as to accept any explanation other than the truth in order to prop up this regime, or to simply not report on it at all, the question is:
What are we, the people, prepared to do?
And I’m afraid the answer is the same as it was from the man who was rightfully elected, John F. Kerry, nothing. Accept the fraudulent result to maintain stability and continuity of Government.
It is sad IMO. And it is the end of Democracy.
Posted by Dave on Feb 16, 2005 at 6:14 PM Let’s just to ignore the faith-based posts of the neo-converts and have a fact-based discussion. They don’t want to deal with those nasty facts.
They believe that the man posing as president is infallible and there is nothing we can say to help them see the truth about the torturer-in-chief. It does not matter to them that the whole world hates Bush and most of our former allies are forming new alliances without the USA.
Check out the rightwing bloggers calling us hypocrites for exposing Bush’s in-house gay male prostitute propagannonist. We’re not the ones who hate gays except to assist in treasonous outings of CIA agents.
Until these thieves seized power in 2000, exit polls were used to prove election fraud. Now, we have former RNC chair Gaylespie calling for the end of exit polls essentially because the exit polls proved election fraud in 2000, 2002, and 2004. Repug fraud is the only valid explanation for these discrepancies in light of the fact that the discrepancies don’t appear where there is a paper trail.
So, let’s quit arguing with these morons and focus on exposing Bush’s daily crimes and lies. The Jeff Gannon story could be Bush’s downfall if we follow the trail of corruption leading to Karl Rove’s treasonous propagannon machine.
Posted by AmericanInsurgent on Feb 16, 2005 at 6:20 PM I agree with you Tom, that’s what most Americans what is the truth. There should be a clear and definite closure to what happened at the polls both in 2000 and 2004. But, we will never have this because of big business who created this mess in the first place for greed.
Posted by Pat Grzybowski on Feb 16, 2005 at 6:28 PM Bravo to Ricardo,Margaret,Dave and Americaninsurgent. I’m so glad there are allot od us out here that are watching our country going to ruin. It makes me want to puke.
Posted by Pat Grzybowski on Feb 16, 2005 at 6:45 PM So now that we agree on the need for change, what are we going to do about it?
Basically, people are like sheep. Most people don’t want to put the time or effort into researching things for themselves. It has been this way since the beginning of time. What needs to happen now is the radicalization of the disenfranchised, that being the non-rich middle class in our current scenario.
These times remind me very much of 1965, when it was just becoming obvious that Vietnam was a boondoggle. Most people didn’t want to hear the truth, and judging from the Kerry evisceration last year, they still don’t want to feel their boys died for nothing. I guess the Nazi army parents felt the same about their boys, but most of them had the guts to admit later that they had been “led down the path”. Anyway, when a few people became vocal and legions began to follow, things changed within a two year period to a phenomenal degree. IT CAN HAPPEN AGAIN, but we have to mobilize.
I, for one, am not willing to stand back and watch our country become a fascist serfdom.
Posted by Margaret on Feb 16, 2005 at 7:03 PM Margaret,
My suggestion is to run for office and/or volunteer for the Dem party (and I say Dem because it’s established and the best bet for change if it’s claimed back by us the people). Also, go here:
http://www.votersunite.org/MB2.pdf
Print it out (about 70 pages) and fax the table of contents to all county clerks, election officials in your state, and your representitives. It dispells the myth that HAVA is forcing everyone to go electronic. Not only does HAVA not require this, it will also still give states HAVA funding if they don’t go electronic. It also points out the costs of going electronic and how much more expensive it is. Educate those at the State level.
Posted by Claire on Feb 16, 2005 at 7:15 PM Margaret & Clair,
You’re absolutely correct that the cure is for us to all get involved, in any and every way possible. Write your local paper, write your congresspersons, talk to your neighbors, run for a local office, support candidates that espouse the truth and expose the lies.
The difficulty is that the entire system, including the democratic party and the so-called fourth estate, has been corrupted by the money influence of corporate entities. We no longer have a democratic republic in the sense that our forefathers envisioned. We have a quasi-fascist plutocracy, where those with the most wealth have the most access, and thus have laws created specifically for them.
Look no further than the corrupt tax system to see just how much influence the plutocrats have gained over our government.
Margaret,
I never said that all republicans are stupid. I said that these blind morons that flatly refuse to acknowledge facts when they’re presented to them are defective and brain damaged, and are incapable of reasoned, rational thought process. I don’t consider all republicans to be in that catagory, just as I don’t consider all democrats to be insane tree hugger enviro-terrorists.They may well be stupid….or not. The world may never know, because they wrap themselves in the blinding ignorance of sheer ideological partisanship. Nothing else matters to them. They cannot be bothered with reality or facts, because they don’t have any room for it.
It’s similar to a fundamentalist Christian. In order to buy into the set of beliefs that these people cling to, they have to divorce themselves from scientific fact and reality, but it matters not to them, because, in their eyes, the more “righteous” the religion, the more blind faith is required in order to become one of the “annointed” ones.
Everything to these people can be measured in very clear black and white demarcations. With us vs. against us. Good vs. evil. Righteous and annointed vs. liberal democrat. There is no room for nuance or gray areas, because that forces them to think, and if they think, they lose grip on their blind faith and begin to question it.
Think of today’s neoconservatives (read: NOT the least bit conservative) as being truly fundamentalist. Nothing will ever sway them, because the more “righteous” their religion (i.e. worship of all things republican), the more blind faith is required on their part in order to become one of the “annointed ones.”
I’d be curious to see a study done on these pseudo-people. I’d be willing to bet that they are terribly frightened people as a whole. They cling desperately to fantasies that hold promise of sweeping away the boogieman for them. They need to have a nanny tucking them in at night, or in this case, a nanny government telling them that everything is alright, and that whenever it isn’t, it’s because of the mean, nasty “liberal media.”
I wonder how many of them still have their houses wrapped in plastic sheeting and duct tape?
Posted by Ralph Cramden on Feb 16, 2005 at 7:40 PM Ralph you have this right on. It’s too bad about these damned labels. We don’t have true parties anymore as BOTH are bought and paid for by the corporations. ALL Americans should be outraged as to what’s happened to both the major parties! Instead, we’re attacking each other which is insane, all the while the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I miss “real” Republicans who hated big government, because those in power now who claim to be Republicans are forcing government down all of our throats. I hope everyone who considers themselves “real” republicans will fight to take back your party! I hope all those who consider themselves “real” democrats do the same - take the parties out of the hands of the corporations and have a true, transparent government once more for the people by the people and of the people!
Oh, and I thought you might appreciate this:http://www.cafepress.com/jesusgroupies
Posted by Claire on Feb 16, 2005 at 7:50 PM Ralph,
I generally agree with you, but I have to make one point clear to you. Not all born-again Christians believe in the New Right. I am one of those, as is Billy Graham, a lifetime registered Democrat. Actually, he really pissed off the “Right” when he held a meeting in San Francisco and informed the audience that “everybody”, regardless of life-style choice was welcome. We may disagree on some scientific issues, but probably less than you might initially think. Not every Christian is a knee-jerk revisionist. As a matter of fact, my Baptist pastor has been attending meetings to investigate the bioethics involved in stem cell research. At this point, he sees no reason to discontinue such research, provided the cells are provided in an ethical manner. He does not agree with Bush & Co.
What makes me the most sad is that Jesus Christ surely would not support the lies and deception and murder that are taking place to establish Bush’s “New America”. So I will continue my fight with my “brothers and sisters”, but you have to understand that I am beating my head against the wall equally with believers and non-believers. I think the best bet is for all of us to show them the contradictions in what Bush is doing and what Jesus said. When they are shown this in a kind way, the chances of awakening them is much higher.
Posted by Margaret on Feb 16, 2005 at 7:56 PM Claire,
I liked those t-shirts! Actually, John Lennon said basically the same thing back in ‘67. He said, “I’m fine with Jesus. It’s just his thick ordinary followers that ruin it for me”. Even as a Christian, I find this to be true.
Posted by Margaret on Feb 16, 2005 at 8:01 PM Margaret, you’ll especially appreciate this video then:
http://www.wiseass.org/html/content-jesus.html
Posted by Claire on Feb 16, 2005 at 8:06 PM Claire,
Yeah, that orginally ran in MAD Magazine! Isn’t it the truth! By the way, I was a Kerry volunteer and am continuing to work against this current administration in any legal way possible.
Posted by Margaret on Feb 16, 2005 at 8:09 PM That’s wonderful Margaret! I was an apathetic non-political 28 year old when I finally got involved, originally in the Kucinich campaign and then the Kerry campaign. Now I volunteer for our State Progressive Caucus. Can’t let it go! :)
By the way, our new DNC chair knows ALL about these machines. He hosted “Topic A with Tina Brown” a year or so ago interviewing Bev Harris of blackboxvoting.org and demonstrated how to hack the election in under 2 minutes. I think we’ll see some changes as long as enough of us are willing to do the footwork. Lord knows Dean knows how to rally the troops!
Posted by Claire on Feb 16, 2005 at 8:13 PM //ALL Americans should be outraged as to what’s happened to both the major parties! Instead, we’re attacking each other which is insane//
This is 100% intentional. They are masters at controlling human behavior. Don’t for a second think that it’s a coincidence that this sudden, dramatic perversion of our government is happening at the same moment that our mainstrem media has somehow lost its way. This is a very organized, concerted effort to manipulate and divide the populace, through fear, deception, misinformation, disinformation, etc. The moment we become organized, they lose, and we will have our government back again. It’s not going to be easy, however. They control everything right now, except this tiny little, obscure beam of light that Al Gore invented for us. ;-)
Margaret,
I seriously doubt that you’re an evangelical fundamentalist Christian, because if you were, you wouldn’t even be entertaining any of this discussion. You’d be telling those around you that the earth is only 5,000 years old, dinosaurs were sent by the devil, and a village should stone a woman to death if she commits adultery.You may very well be “born again,” and I applaud you for that. But, suddenly believing that Christ walked the earth and died to absolve you of earthly sin is quite different from encasing yourself in rigid, intolerant beliefs and views that force you to cast scientific facts and reality aside. I know many born again Christians who are not fundamentalists. Fortunately, I have personnally known very few true fundamentalists in my life.
Posted by Ralph Cramden on Feb 16, 2005 at 8:38 PM //I was an apathetic non-political 28 year old when I finally got involved, originally in the Kucinich campaign//
Kucinich was the closest thing that I’ve seen to a truly visionary, enlightened presidential candidate in my lifetime. Is it any wonder that the corporate media refused to even acknowledge his existence? He is the type of leader who could bring about real, positive change in the world, forever. A US Department of Peace? Imagine that. Trouble is, there just isn’t much money in peace these days.
Posted by Ralph Cramden on Feb 16, 2005 at 8:42 PM Ralph, before I got involved, I believed what the TV was telling me. It wasn’t until I saw how the media slighted Kucinich and how it tore Dean apart once he said he’d break up the media consolidation, I really saw what was going on and then investigated as to why it was that way. When 6 corporations own all of the media and they also own companies that produce weapons, etc., it becomes obvious. Welcome to 1984!!
I hope someday we get a Dept of Peace and that Kucinich gets to head it. :)
Posted by Claire on Feb 16, 2005 at 8:46 PM Justin, sounds to me like your small minded attitude is much smaller than your penis, and you have no want or need for a real democratic vote!
Posted by Sally T on Feb 16, 2005 at 8:49 PM Ralph,
I understand what you’re saying, but I think you have a misunderstanding of what an evangelist is. Yes, I do share my faith with others in hopes that they will “see the light”. But I don’t put my brain and common sense on hold, either, so I guess that’s what you mean. An evangelist simply shares their beliefs. A Fundamentalist is not inherently bad or wrong, it’s just that they have listened to ill-informed or ill-intentioned people. It’s back to the “people are sheep” statement I made earlier. No one wants to do the homework, so it’s easier to believe what someone else tells you. This works for both the religious and the aetheist. We are told in the Bible to be like sheep in that we follow Jesus on faith. Unfortunately,this is a very deadly combination when a false prophet, like Hitler, Bush, etc., convince these people that they are executing “God’s will”. And so here we are now.
Posted by Margaret on Feb 16, 2005 at 8:59 PM It’s outrageous how the mainstream media is ignoring America’s election fraud; as if they don’t want you to know what a sick joke our supposedly free elections have become. The current administration believes that the bigger the lies it tells, the more Americans will believe them. Sadly, it appears that they are right. The worst people of all are those supposedly ‘moral’ folks on the right who can be heard snickering about how the election was ‘delivered on time’ to them. Talk about a lack of morals!!!!
Posted by J Yaki on Feb 16, 2005 at 9:05 PM There were never any “real Republicans” who hated big government. Republicans always claimed to be against big government while growing the military industrial complex. The repugs are all for corporate welfare in the form of no bid contracts to Haliburton, etc. They were against any governmental regulation, which cut down on their profits and exposed the corporate poisoning of our planet and unsafe working conditions. Look at who runs up the huge deficits and inflates our defense budget.
When they claim to be against big government they mean they are against healthcare, social security, workers compensation, education funding, Headstart, feeding and housing the poor, OSHA, the EPA, the FCC, the FAA, or any governmental program designed to help those who are not filthy rich. And, God forbid that we fix our elections with universal paper trails so that the corporations that make the electronic machines can’t hack the results.
They claim to be Christians but are really hedonists. They refuse to delay gratification in anything. Bush’s huge tax “deferrals” are the ultimate in instant gratification. We’re still paying for Reagan’s irresponsible tax deferrals.
Sure the Democrats are an ineffective opposition party but that is largely because too many of them have not fought back and called these neo-fascists on their lies. I wish that just calling these hypocrites on their lies would work but we have been doing that and it doesn’t seem to be working. I’m afraid that we need to dig deeper and expose the entrails of the neo-con propagannon conspiracy. Too many of them are afraid to call Bush the liar that he is. Just say it, George Bush lied again today!
We’ve just begun to scratch the surface of the corruption with Gannongate. Gannon got White House press passes for 2 years using a false name, all while working as a gay hooker. He was obviously very “close” to someone with a lot of power in the White House. Scott McClellan? http://rawstory.com/news/2005/index.php?p=73
The White house cannot be permitted to publically gaybash while being a haven for all of these gay neo-cons. It is another example of the lies ruling the day in this faith-based White House.
Some of the Democrats seem to be waking up but it is not enough. Every lie Bush tells must be exposed by a Democratic Congressman on the evening news. The MSM usually just parrots the White House lies in the news and Rove comes up with stupid nonsensical sayings like, “It’s my money,” or “We’re fighting the terrorists over there, so they won’t attack us here.” Yeah, the terrorists have forgotten how to get here because Bush lost bin Laden and went to Iraq.
Posted by AmericanInsurgent on Feb 16, 2005 at 9:12 PM what scares me is duhbya wants to export our “style of democracy” to the entire world. I think they will object rather strenuously, as a certain segment of Iraqi society is now, ya think? In the last two elections, I voted via absentee ballot (paper). I will continue to do so until the Diebold machines are purged from my fair state. I don’t trust those things any farther than I can throw ‘em…
Posted by omtowngirl on Feb 16, 2005 at 9:12 PM Brenda, just explain why every anomaly in this stolen election was skewed towards your little boy, dubya? The odds are astronomical for that happening, unless the wizards behind the curtains had been pulling each and every string. I just wish you and the bu$h twins would march off to combat in Iraq/Iran/Syria etc…... so that the gene pool in America would have a chance again.
Posted by Sally T on Feb 16, 2005 at 9:12 PM If people read the bible they should recognize a false prophet when they see and hear one. Pat Robertson who always has his lips flapping is a true false prophet. He has no buisness preaching to his lambs who to vote for. He’s another one besides Bush, and Rumfield who have too much say so. I think conservatives vote the way they do because they just want to be on the winning side and do not want to involve themselves any further in how their government is run. They will really be suprised when war erupts on the shores and inlands of the United States of America. I write to the White House, my Congressman and my representives with questions and gripes, but they ellude you or don’t respond at all. Here is another thing pascifist do, meaning “the conservatives”, they keep re-electing the same good old boys into office who are riding high on the theory that they have it made and will never be voted out.
Posted by Pat Grzybowski on Feb 16, 2005 at 9:14 PM //There were never any “real Republicans” who hated big government//
Perhaps not in power. That’s why I suggest those who truly feel that way (no to big government) to take back their party!
Posted by Claire on Feb 16, 2005 at 9:18 PM Have you noticed that the progressives who have posted on this topic mostly have mountains of evidence and highly logical arguments? And that most of the conservative posts have been something on the order of “get over it,” “you lost,” and “no wonder you alienate people”?
Really, if you don’t trust science, rationality, logic, or evidence—please stop using the internet (it was invented using those things). Please stop driving your car and turning on your lights. Stop talking on your cell phone. If you choose to live in a land of superstition and irrationality, then be consistent and live like the Amish. They don’t believe in science, so they don’t use it. And I can respect that integrity. I don’t have much respect for people who ignore rationality only when it doesn’t suit their interests (or in this case, when it blinds them to the fact that they are voting against their own interests). If you have EVIDENCE that their was not massive Republican fraud in this election, please share it with us. If not, just admit that you have nothing to say.
Posted by stroudDAWG on Feb 16, 2005 at 9:29 PM //Have you noticed that the progressives who have posted on this topic mostly have mountains of evidence and highly logical arguments? And that most of the conservative posts have been something on the order of “get over it,” “you lost,” and “no wonder you alienate people”? //
That was my point previously. These creatures simply have no capacity for critical thought processes. It’s if they have a pathological defect in their brains that makes it impossible for them to acknowledge or discuss reality and facts.
I happen to believe that it stems from the fact that they have no moral compass, no true principles, no real values, and instead rely entirely upon blind faith to offer them some semblence of personhood. They have surrendered all logic and critical thinking to their talking heads. Whatever Rush says is gospel. Period. End of discussion.
There is no gray area, remember? You either agree with Rush, Sean, Bill, Ann, and the rest of the multitudes of reichwing talking heads on the “liberal media,” or else you’re told to “get over it,” “get lost,” or else “no wonder you alienate voters.” These people cannot engage in rational, intelligent debate or discussion, because their argument is obliterated by the light of truth and facts, and to see their fragile beliefs shattered so easily by mere facts is intolerable to them. To a neocon, truth is kyrptonite.
Margaret,
You are a classic “Jim Wallis” evangelical. I highly respect and admire this group of millions. You have enough strength in your faith that you don’t feel the need to desperately cling to nonsense and divorce yourself from reality in order to exist. You have enough intelligence to realize that holding up a bible while you support state sponsored terrorism that is slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent people is simply wrong, not to mention incredibly hypocritical.
Btw, you are correct that Hitler was a fundamentalist Christian. Funny how the so many of the world’s most dangerous, murderous, maniacal, bigoted, hateful, treacherous, diabolical demons seem to belong to this group, isn’t it?
Posted by Ralph Cramden on Feb 16, 2005 at 9:48 PM Claire, I was referring to the velvet revolution. Too bad all these conservatives out there can’t watch that video.
Posted by Pat Grzybowski on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:00 PM Ah… you mean this one:
(real media)
http://velvetrevolution.us/Content/ElectoralReform/Video/Illegit_Election_2004-2 20-256.ram(Windows media player)
http://velvetrevolution.us/Content/ElectoralReform/Video/Illegit_Election_2004-2 20-256.wmv(Quicktime)
http://velvetrevolution.us/Content/ElectoralReform/Video/Illegit_Election_2004-2 20-256.movYes, I wish everyone would watch it. Hey,it even has a little bit from the corporate media in it (ABC)! Amazing.
Posted by Claire on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:05 PM Proof positive that the neo-converts cannot even tolerate the truth. I was banned from a right wing blog when I attempted to post comments about the exit poll discrepancies, the 2000 Florida Gore win, and Gannongate. My posts were banned because they were reality-based with actual citations to real souces, like the study referenced at the end of the above article: http://www.uscountvotes.org/ucvAnalysis/US/USCountVotes_Re_Mitofsky-Edison.pdf
Posted by AmericanInsurgent on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:14 PM RE: “That was my point previously. These creatures simply have no capacity for critical thought processes. It’s if they have a pathological defect in their brains that makes it impossible for them to acknowledge or discuss reality and facts.
I happen to believe that it stems from the fact that they have no moral compass, no true principles, no real values, and instead rely entirely upon blind faith to offer them some semblence of personhood. They have surrendered all logic and critical thinking to their talking heads. Whatever Rush says is gospel. Period. End of discussion.
There is no gray area, remember? You either agree with Rush, Sean, Bill, Ann, and the rest of the multitudes of reichwing talking heads on the “liberal media,” or else you’re told to “get over it,” “get lost,” or else “no wonder you alienate voters.” These people cannot engage in rational, intelligent debate or discussion, because their argument is obliterated by the light of truth and facts, and to see their fragile beliefs shattered so easily by mere facts is intolerable to them. To a neocon, truth is kyrptonite.”
Nice work w/ the broad brush. It really helps your case.
And about the ‘mountains of evidence’ and ‘highly logical arguments’:
If the evidence is so massive and compelling, why isn’t it in the mainstream ?
The ‘evidence’ you guys are using is about the same quality (and quantity) as the creationist/ID crap that pollutes the internet.
Posted by Kurtis on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:20 PM Kurtis,
Because when people do report it, they get sent to the “farm”. I have been asking the same question about the missing 9 billion dollars in Iraq, why not one of the “reasons” we went into Iraq turned out to be correct, why the Bush Administration is refusing to prosecute those corporations that have stolen millions in Iraq.
I just watched on CSpan the other day when several credible witnesses provided proof that Bush is compliant with the ripping-off of the American people, and I have yet to see one headline about it.You see, Kurtis, that’s one of the facets of fascism…you repress the press. Voila! The evidence is there for those who are willing to hear/see it. Obviously, people are so afraid of terrorism, that they are flocking to anything that looks like it will protect them, and “screw everybody else”. And so we have modern-day America.
Posted by Margaret on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:29 PM Nice work on the links everybody, intelligent discourse on this site, whodathunkit? I agree with the various people that posted that we should just ignore these right-wingers that post on our websites (really, why bother baiting us? You aren’t going to change a single mind and we’re not going to change yours!)
but for the life of me I can’t understand why Americans don’t use paper ballots? Up here in the backwards hick country known as Canada, we mark an X beside the name we want and that’s that..no butterfly voting, or punch cards or eep! touch screens…
seems to me it works just fine, why make it more difficult than it need be?
Posted by neil on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:29 PM “Because when people do report it, they get sent to the “farm”.”
See, you’ve already gone off the deep end in the 1st sentence.
Posted by Kurtis on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:37 PM Hey Neil!
From what I understand, it takes less than 4 hours to count all the ballots in Canada too. Is that right? Seems to me the way to go is a check mark next to the name. Clear and consise. You can even make them in brail.
Posted by Claire on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:38 PM Kurtis - seriously - follow the money. You’ll see who owns the media and who’s interest they serve. It sure as hell ain’t the “American People”.
Posted by Claire on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:39 PM The election was stolen.
We never really landed on the moon.
Evolution is a fraud.
Paul is dead.
Did I miss anything ?
Posted by Kurtis on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:40 PM that seems about right…and even with the population disparity, I’m sure you could just have more people counting the votes. I live in Toronto, in one of the most densely populated ridings and there doesn’t appear to be more than 30 people counting.
it’s kinda hard to fck up an X ;)
Posted by neil on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:41 PM yeah, you missed one thing Kurtis, your presence is an irritant.
you have no interest in either learning anything or teaching anything. You’re just a mosquito bite, irritating and unwelcome.
just go, stop baiting people, it’s annoying.
Posted by neil on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:44 PM The election was stolen. I think you may be smoking something for the rest, Kurtis. Take the time and take a look. Read the links.
“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.”- President Thomas Jefferson
“It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from the government.- Thomas Paine
“A President is impeachable if he attempts to subvert the Constitution”.—President James Madison
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety
deserve neither.”- Ben Franklin
“If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the
highest
seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced
patriots
to prevent its ruin.”- Samuel Adams
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing.”- Edmund Burke
“This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit
it.
Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can
exercise
their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary
right
to overthrow it.”- President Abraham Lincoln
“In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce and brave man,
hated and
scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it
costs
nothing to be a patriot.”- ‘Mark Twain’
“Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by
the
President.”- President Theodore Roosevelt
“The President is merely the most important among a large number of public
servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is
warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or
inefficiency in
rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the nation as a whole.
Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to
tell
the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly as necessary
to
blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any
other
attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that
there
must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the
President,
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally
treasonable
to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him
or any
one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or
unpleasant, about him than about any one else.”- President Theodore Roosevelt, 1912
“I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly
for this
reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.”- James Baldwin, Notes of a Native Son
“So long as we have enough people in this country willing to fight for
their
rights, we’ll be called a democracy.”- Roger Baldwin
“Disobedience, in the eyes of any one who has read history, is man’s
original
virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through
disobedience and through rebellion.”- Oscar Wilde
“Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.”- George Bernard Shaw
“The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of
comfort, and
convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.”- Dr. Martin Luther King
“Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have
acted; the
indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the
voice of
justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to
triumph.”- Haile Selassie
“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that
matter.”- Reverend Martin Luther King Jr.
Posted by Claire on Feb 16, 2005 at 10:47 PM Thank you for doing this article. It’s very enlightening.
Posted by Charles on Feb 16, 2005 at 11:16 PM We don’t use paper ballots here because then the repugs couldn’t cheat and get away with it.
Why isn’t the truth about Bush’s incompetence and malfeasance reported in the MSM? Haven’t you been paying attention? The MSM is no longer doing investigative journalism, it is owned by right wing shills, and populated by paid Bush propagannonists.
Explain why Gannongate is not really being covered by the MSM. This gay hooker somehow got a daily pass to the White House press corps for 2 years. Yet the “real reporters” aren’t screaming bloody murder about this pretender getting daily access to the White House? You think maybe their bosses have silenced them?
Yet the president of CNN gets fired for making an off the record and since retracted comment about the disturbing death rate of reporters in Iraq because right wing bloggers called for his head. (As many reporters have died in Iraq as died in the entire Vietnam war-Yet our military death rates are substantially reduced). The media is run by the right wing and they are covering up the crimes of Bush, et al. It is now up to us to do the job of the MSM!
Posted by AmericanInsurgent on Feb 16, 2005 at 11:22 PM RE: “yeah, you missed one thing Kurtis, your presence is an irritant.
you have no interest in either learning anything or teaching anything. You’re just a mosquito bite, irritating and unwelcome.
just go, stop baiting people, it’s annoying.”
“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.”- President Thomas Jefferson
I guess that doesn’t apply here :-(RE: “The election was stolen. I think you may be smoking something for the rest, Kurtis. Take the time and take a look. Read the links.”
How about you give me ONE link to an article in a credible peer reviewed journal supporting your supposition that the election was stolen.
Just one.
I promise i’ll read it.
Posted by Kurtis on Feb 16, 2005 at 11:25 PM Kurtis, if you’d read my posts you’d see dozens of links.
Here’s one more for you though since you asked and promised you’d read it:
http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf
As far as dissent, I’m all for it.
Posted by Claire on Feb 16, 2005 at 11:31 PM Oddly enough, the above offer is basically the same one i’ve presented to many a ID/Creationist.
Never gotten a good link.
Posted by Kurtis on Feb 16, 2005 at 11:32 PM Did my link not work for you or did you post that before seeing mine?
Posted by Claire on Feb 16, 2005 at 11:50 PM Ok. I’ve read it (for the 2nd time).
Would you consider that “an article in a credible peer reviewed journal supporting your supposition that the election was stolen.” ?
I don’t.
I’d rate it as a collection of every election gripe Conyers & company could solicit.
Posted by Kurtis on Feb 17, 2005 at 12:04 AM There’s a link at the end of the article, which I referenced above. http://www.uscountvotes.org/ucvAnalysis/US/USCountVotes_Re_Mitofsky-Edison.pdf Also, here’s another link: http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf/Documents/ExitPoll.pdf
I know that even a vidotaped confession of Karl Rove would probably not impress you but these statistical analyses are more reliable than anything out of Rove’s mouth. Disenfranchised voters testifying under oath just a collection of complaints. At least they were willing to testify under oath unlike the election thieves.
Explain why every discrepancy in this election favored Bush if the election was not stolen.
Why won’t Blackwell testify about his perfect Ohio election unless he has something to hide?
Posted by AmericanInsurgent on Feb 17, 2005 at 12:10 AM Here’s a peer reviewed book proving Bush stole the 2000 election for you too: http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/a72369d54fc8077ca19afeb4da09e526.html
Posted by AmericanInsurgent on Feb 17, 2005 at 12:13 AM I’d honestly like to know what people think of what I have to say. Firstly, I’m definitely of the opinion that the election was stolen, that our democracy exists only as a fantasy, that this administration is evil, etc., so you know where I come from. The problem I’ve encountered are two-fold:
1. What can be done about it?
2. Trying to convert the other side to your point of view is a waste of time.For me, and it might seem silly to some, the only reasonable thing I can do to “do something about it” is to pray - to pray for the war and madness to stop, to pray that we get a government that actually wants to help people and problems at home and in the world. Talking about it with people on the other side of the fence has basically gotten me a whole lot of nothing. Maybe it’s the undecideds and open minded and fence sitters we need to go after, because honestly, the possibility of me getting someone that agrees with the right wing conservative christian republican point of view on things to suddenly see the Light and change their point of view is exactly the same possibility of one of them convincing me that war is justified or that homosexuality is wrong - i.e., it’s NOT going to happen. I guess that putting out stories like this one are important, but then again, they always (because of our lovely media) end up showing up in the alternative press, and the people who read the alternative press either do because they know the regular press isn’t telling the truth, or they’re trying to actively refute the alternative press and get people to buy into all the b.s. While noble, and I’m sure necessary, it seems to accomplish little. So, I’m still left with:
1. What can be done about it?
2. Trying to convert the other side to your point of view is a waste of time.I do believe the truth will come out because I have an unreasonable belief and faith in the good side of the force (if you will), but how and when this will happen I know not. All I personally can do at the moment is pray and trust that God (or whatever you want to call it in whatever way you want to believe in it) will deliver…
Posted by Gary on Feb 17, 2005 at 12:19 AM Sorry, I asked for one.
You blew it on the Conyers Report.
I’ve got to leave now to go meet some Repugs so we can snicker and clasp our hands - while grinning in an evil fashion - over the election results.
(Actually i’m going to jam out with my bohemian friends playing some Gov’t Mule & Clapton covers)
Posted by Kurtis on Feb 17, 2005 at 12:19 AM It all makes sense now!
what’s the line from the Simpsons go to London?
“there’s Eric Clapton, the greatest thief of American Black music ever”
or something to that effect
;)
Posted by The Great Went on Feb 17, 2005 at 12:24 AM Spool:
Perhaps you know nothing about the courts. I have been a trial attorney for 27 years and I have some idea of what courts can do and what they can’t.
If we had a computer generated election coup (I use the word coup because fraud is something the courts can handle on a small scale) the courts are as helpless at solving this problem as they would be if the tanks rolled in and the head of the military took over the government.
To begin with, our electoral college makes every state’s legal system have to deal with it’s own situation. This is a national nightmare for the courts. They are incapable of dealing with this.
Then there is pretrial discovery, the rules of which make it very difficult to find out what one side did if they do not want you to know. They can play hide the ball for years.
Going through the court mazes, if you could find out what happened, two elections might have come and gone since the court cases began.
On the other hand, perhaps you do know that the courts could never deal with this situation and you just throw out the “go to court” argument because you know the courts are helpless.
So telling someone to prove this in court is pointless. You might as well just say “get over it.”
If you want us “to get over it” get some really good conservative statisticians to review Mitofsky’s report and have them come up with some really compelling reasons that the exit polls were wrong.
Until then, I will believe that the the exit polls were far more accurate than the actual tabulation. In the same way, I believe (conservatives too I might add) that we do a horrible job of headcount in the census and that a statistical analysis of the population would arrive at a much more accurate count of the population.
Posted by David on Feb 17, 2005 at 12:31 AM Steve Freeman and Josh Mitteldorf have raised some important issues. However, there is a variable which could help account for the discrepancy between the exit polls and the election results.
i.e. That a proportion of voters who voted for Bush did not respond honestly to the exit polls because they felt vaguely guilty. That’s not a crazy suggestion if one considers the way that the right-wing media played up the fears of “terrorism”. Someone could find Bush’s agenda morally objectionable but nevertheless feel safer (however naively)with a continuity of his presidency than with a new president with more ambiguous credentials.
I don’t know if that’s true, but it doesn’t need a conspiracy theory…
Posted by Peter Thompson on Feb 17, 2005 at 12:36 AM Kurtis wrote:
“Ok. I’ve read it (for the 2nd time).Would you consider that “an article in a credible peer reviewed journal supporting your supposition that the election was stolen.” ?
I don’t.
I’d rate it as a collection of every election gripe Conyers & company could solicit.
“
I consider the over 100 page report submitted by a member of the house of representitives and puting his reputation on the line credible and worthy of your review.
http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html
Posted by Claire on Feb 17, 2005 at 12:51 AM <sigh> All this shouting across a great divide, where is it getting us?
What if we look at this not as a partisan issue, but a people issue? What if we simply look at it as a huge disagreement? Those of you out there trying to convince the other side, here’s something to try. Stop arguing your case, and try arguing the opponents’. Really try. Do your research. Talk to people about their ideas and feelings. Put as much passion into it as you put into expressing your own thoughts. Maybe if we do this, we will begin to understand each other and maybe, although it makes me breathless to think it, find common ground. Maybe at least we will find a common language, a way to talk to and listen to each other. Maybe then we can make progress as a nation.
There is common ground, I’m sure of it. For example, I don’t think any of us wants to believe we are being screwed by our government. We just have different ways of going about protecting ourselves.
Brenda, you are obviously an intelligent and thoughtful person. Will you do this? Claire, obviously a prodigious researcher. Will you do this? Not to single these two out, will any of you do this?
I find that in any situation, each person has their version of events. They assemble their facts and construct their arguments with utter confidence each in their own veracity. The truth, however, always turns out to be somewhere in the middle.
Posted by still has faith in humankind? on Feb 17, 2005 at 12:54 AM So why didn’t Americans go on a General Strike and demand a recount like they did in the Ukraine? Its obvious that bush stole the election. A third of your voters didn’t even turn up to vote. In Australia it is illegal not to vote. Elections take place on a Saturday so that people can go and vote with minimal impact on employers, who can get into alot of trouble if they even attempt to impeed you from going to the polling booth.
So why the complacency of sitting at home? Ukranians travelled from all around their country and protested. They refused to move until the election was redone. Why didn’t you guys do that? That’s how they got away with it. I have read several blogs moaning about how the Republicans had election commissioners and supreme court judges all in place to corrupt the outcome, yet the only thing that has been done properly is a couple of court challenges. Why play poker with a stacked deck?
Maybe a General strike sounds to much like Communism. But then rigged elections sounds too much like Stalinism.
Posted by Byronie on Feb 17, 2005 at 12:54 AM So why didn’t Americans go on a General Strike and demand a recount like they did in the Ukraine? Its obvious that bush stole the election. A third of your voters didn’t even turn up to vote. In Australia it is illegal not to vote. Elections take place on a Saturday so that people can go and vote with minimal impact on employers, who can get into alot of trouble if they even attempt to impeed you from going to the polling booth.
So why the complacency of sitting at home? Ukranians travelled from all around their country and protested. They refused to move until the election was redone. Why didn’t you guys do that? That’s how they got away with it. I have read several blogs moaning about how the Republicans had election commissioners and supreme court judges all in place to corrupt the outcome, yet the only thing that has been done properly is a couple of court challenges. Why play poker with a stacked deck?
Maybe a General strike sounds to much like Communism. But then rigged elections sounds too much like Stalinism.
The difference between the Ukraine and the US is not about rigging the elections. The difference is what YOU the people did about it. While you are not making your presence felt and sit at home, the propaganda news networks, who have considerable presence, can destroy your case with lies.
In the Ukraine the protestors stopped the country and made sure the whole world was watching. In the US . . .
Posted by Byronie on Feb 17, 2005 at 12:59 AM Byronie:
We haven’t had a strike here or public protest of any significance since the sixties.
Then we had a media who let us know how bad Vietnam was. That kind of media is long gone.
Most people know absoultely nothing of the exit polls or what they mean. They were produced and paid for by our media and our own media won’t tell us what they mean.
Of course, we can thank the Australians for giving us Murdoch and Fox News. Thanks a lot.
Posted by David on Feb 17, 2005 at 1:13 AM Saying you don’t have a decent media left anymore is just an excuse. The Ukranians don’t either, but the international agencies were there to alert the rest of the world.
Murdoch is now a US citizen, so although we created the beast (and suffer in our media for it) the US allowed him to get alot worse. Don’t worry, we have a couple of other dodgy media moguls that we wouldn’t mind of-loading too (only kidding! I have a lot of respect of americans in many ways).
seriously though -
There seems to be a lot of ‘what’s the point in doing anything’ arguments going around. which seems to me to be an own-goal situation. self-defeatism.On another note, there’s definately a feeling (I believe) in the air, kind of like 1966 in Europe and America or 1920 in Ireland, that we are about to experience a big shift in thinking and the balance of power. Its time for it anyway.
I don’t know the answers, and I hope I’m not coming across as offensive (not my intent at any rate).
Posted by byronie on Feb 17, 2005 at 1:29 AM still has faith in humankind?
You bet. People on the right - please tell me your theory on this issue and I will research best I can to prove you right, so long as we have a similar effort from someone over there. This SHOULD be a non-partisan issue and I am more than willing to work with you.
Posted by Claire on Feb 17, 2005 at 1:31 AM Brenda, Brenda, Brenda,
As a lawyer, I can tell you that what happened in Florida is not what you think.
The real problem in Florida was the election law that the state legislature created with no consideration whatsoever for a national election.
Unfortunately, this is the state of affairs in nearly every state as all state election laws are designed for state elections and not national ones. The timetables in state election laws presume that there are many months to recount and sue over a questionable election.
This does not jibe with what the national election requires.
The Florida Supreme Court, in order to attempt to get some kind of recount that made some sense given the national election timetables, essentially crafted its own election law.
Most legal scholars thought that under the circumstances they did a good job. The Republicans argued that this was ex post facto.
At the Supreme Court, realizing that the ex post facto argument would not fly, they shifted their argument to equal protection. The Supreme Court bought it, but in an opinion that was highly criticised by constitutional scholars.
But by then, it didn’t matter because the clock had run out.
And this is precisely what is wrong with anyone who says that the Democrats should have sued in Ohio. The clock will always run out before the legal system has any opportunity to dequately remedy the situation.
Posted by David on Feb 17, 2005 at 2:04 AM George Bush is, as always, stiil hounded by unfavorable ratings. Has anyone noticed this? How could anyone who was really reelected by the American people, always, and consistently, receive such poor ratings? He had bad ratings before the election, and he still has bad ratings now! Was the Iraqi elections George Bush’s one great day.. for favorable ratings? These ratings only further prove that George Bush didn’t win the 2004 Election. He won the 2004 Election, just the same way he won the 2000 Election..He just plain STOLE THEM! Anyone who still thinks that he won either election, after all of the proof which has been provided showing otherwise, is either a coward, or an idiot..or both.
SOUR GRAPES? “What a joke!” Bush supporters will find out what SOUR GRAPES really are”..
“when George Bush is finally impeached!”
Posted by J.C. on Feb 17, 2005 at 2:13 AM A VERY informative flash on what happened in Florida and the history behind it:
http://bushflash.com/gta.html
Posted by Claire on Feb 17, 2005 at 2:14 AM HAIL TO THE THIEF!
(independant hiphop track responding to election fraud)http://www.mossyrecords.cjb.net
Posted by daniel "solomon" moss on Feb 17, 2005 at 2:40 AM <<These ratings only further prove that George Bush didn’t win the 2004 Election. He won the 2004 Election, just the same way he won the 2000 Election..He just plain STOLE THEM! Anyone who still thinks that he won either election, after all of the proof which has been provided showing otherwise, is either a coward, or an idiot..or both.>>
J.C., you said a mouthful of TRUTH here brother!
Posted by C.Y. on Feb 17, 2005 at 2:53 AM The secret to a big lie is to make it so big, so audacious, that no one dares believe it because it would rock the stable foundations of their world too much.
This country was specifically based on free elections, a peaceful, powerful revolution every four years. By directly subverting this process on a massive scale at levels difficult for most ordinary people to imagine, let alone understand, the Republican elite has pulled off the biggest power grab in US history.
It is not, however, the biggest power grab in world history. It follows the textbook. Machiavelli’s the Prince. Sun Tzu’s the Art of War. Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf. George Orwell’s 1984.
Control the press. Do not ever respond to accusations with facts. Simply deny, and repeat the same lies over and over until enough people have heard them enough times to believe them. Stare down your opponents and attack them personally if they dare to attack your policies. Find a scapegoat and build up hate against them in the larger populace. Start a war. Start another war.
Stealing the elections is only a minor part of the larger plan. I don’t know if it will be the next election, or the one after that, but if this continues ...(to quote a great author who predicted over 50 years ago that the US would devolve into a Military Theocracy by 2010) I wouldn’t be surprised if a Presidential election were suspended due to national emergency. Indefinitely.
I really, truly hope that I am merely paranoid, not paranoid and right. Unfortunately, I have studied enough history to be fairly confident that I am right.
Posted by odanu on Feb 17, 2005 at 2:54 AM Did anyone read my earlier post? I thought I was asking some good thought provoking questions. Would anyone care to comment???
Posted by Gary on Feb 17, 2005 at 3:17 AM I find it funny that people say Bush should have no problems with full investigation into the election if he didn’t do anything wrong. Isn’t that the same argument that Republicans use to to defend the Patriot Act?
I’ll let that sink in for a second.
Posted by Kevin on Feb 17, 2005 at 3:17 AM Just for fun, does anyone want to start listing the logical fallicies in Kurtis’s and Brenda’s and their ilk’s arguments?
so far, without digging too deep, I have found ad hominem attacks, arguments from consequences, argument from accident *and* converse accident (failing to generalize and overgeneralizing), begging the question, and ...well, I’ll let the rest of you good people start adding your own fallacies to the list
Posted by odanu on Feb 17, 2005 at 3:37 AM Byronie:
WE don’t have international agencies either. We wouldn’t even let UN observers in to monitor our elections.
What we need is the equivalent of Radio Free Europe. We need a Radio Free America. We need a European Newsgroup (one not controlled giant by European corportions) broadcasting from Canada all the way to the Rio Grande.
Unless you were here and heard and read our media, you cannot comprehend how isolated we are in what we hear and see. Americans, by and large, are not readers and what they do read is mostly created here.
The reason we don’t take to the streets is because most of us are blissfully ignorant. See Kurtis for example.
Posted by David on Feb 17, 2005 at 3:37 AM <<Our election process needs a major overhaul and the sooner the better. No other country would put up with questionable machine tampering, no paper trail, and optical scanners that can be manipulated. The masses have been lured into complacency. WAKE UP!!! Democracy is in a coma in America!>>
Suki, our democracy has been hijacked by the neocons and theocratic “right” into the toilet!
Posted by debbie on Feb 17, 2005 at 3:38 AM <<<<<Must be nice to be a Right Winger these days - WMD’s in Iraq, Saddam / Al Qaeda collaboration, we’d be greeted as liberators, Iraq would be a cakewalk, Social Security is going bankrupt, deficits don’t matter, tax cuts favoring the wealthy will spur the economy, GeeDubya inherited a recession, Liberals were the cause of 9-11, gays getting married is the end of civilization as we know it - you don’t need to think. Simply check your brain in at the church and have faith that everything is as Fox Jazeera and the EIB report.>>>>
Wingnuts are totally despicable and unable to think as normal human beings. The rapture is coming, as well as the cleansing of the environment and replenishment of all the natural resources the corporations have depleted.
Posted by sidney on Feb 17, 2005 at 3:46 AM One final comment before I head off to bed for the night.
One thing about Kurtis’ and Brenda’s and the rest of the people who have been criticizing this effort worries me more than any other. Our country’s foundation is fair, transparent, free elections.
If my candidate’s legitimacy were being questioned, I would be bending over backwards to ensure that I could investigate as thoroughly and from every angle, as possible, to determine the truth. I would do this for two reasons: I would want to exonerate my candidate, if he were innocent, and I would want to protect and preserve my country, if he were guilty.
Why then are these self-styled patriots screaming and using ad hominem attacks to silence the debate? Especially since this debate has a substantial body of statistical evidence to support or suggest (depending on your bias) the idea the the President of the United States stole the election. If I were a Republican supporter, I would be outraged and dismayed that not only had my candidate lied to the opposition, but he had lied to his supporters as well, and cheated and subverted the laws of the country he is sworn to lead in this most fundamental way.
It is in the interest of all US citizens, no matter what their ideological leanings, to get to the bottom of any election fraud, from dog catcher all the way up to and including President. Misquoting a quote quoted earlier in this forum (*grin*), “Evil gets its way only when good people do nothing”. Good people need to disseminate this information as widely as possible, no matter what their political leanings in the name of truth, and literally, in the defense of our Republic.
Posted by odanu on Feb 17, 2005 at 3:49 AM I tuned into the first one on the list Claire, but I will get to the resr of them soon. Thanks for sharing.
Posted by Pat Grzybowski on Feb 17, 2005 at 3:53 AM Byronie,
There is no excuse as to why we didn’t take to the streets to protest the election fraud, but here are some reasons:1) This Country is HUGE, Ukraine is about the size of Texas. The logistics of storming Washington DC would not be that easy to overcome. I live 1000 miles away from Washington DC. Most Americans can not get the time off from work or can’t afford the expense of traveling there.
2) Only about 30% or less of Kerry voters believe the election was stolen. Most Americans are sound asleep and have no idea what is going on in this Country. 88 million eligible voters did not vote, they just don’t care.
3) The media here might as well be government run, with the exception of Keith Olbermann on MSNBC, not one station carried the story of voter irregularities.
I don’t know what it will take for the American people to wake up, I have tried to wake up some members of my own family and I have not had much luck.
I would love to see that 30% of Kerry voters storm Washington, that is about 18 million people!! The Secret Service would be scurrying ole Georgie to the basement of the White House in a hurry if that amount of people converged on Washington. Maybe then the media would be forced to cover the story, but then again the way this country has been lately, it could end up like Tianamin Square.
Posted by Jessica on Feb 17, 2005 at 4:31 AM Thank you for laying out this information in such a detailed and articulate manner. Upon reading this latest report after following all these reports that have been circulating about the election(s), from a sort of amateur John Q. Citizen political watcher viewpoint, it seems clear to me that there were a great quantity of “actions” that took place. These actions appear to me to be not so much coordinated (but who knows as of yet?) as they appear to be inspired on a national level.
A lot of actions took place that affected our nation’s arguably most prized possession - the Democratic Process. This kind of action required courage, a sense of purpose, and a belief in what was being undertaken (the ends justifying the means), and most tragically, the certainty that these illegal actions would only be confronted by words - complaints, expressed outrage, calls for investigation, and other logical arguments. And that these words would easily be countered by angry words designed to dismiss, invalidate and discredit these words, and their authors, questioning the validity of our most prized possession - our Democratic Process.
It is clear to me that these “men of action” are certain that there will be no action beyond blogs, or words. I hope that they are wrong.
In my humble and uninformed opinion, only action, perhaps inspired by the words preceding them, will bring the truth to light, one candle at a time so to speak. It will not take many candles to burn this House of Cards that serves to hide this “Operation Dubya.”
It would be interesting if these words of concern over our Democratic Process were aimed to inspire actions to reveal wrong doings in individual preceincts, leak internal memos, inviting people to come out with what they know, posting any evidence that they may be able to accumulate, and other actions of that nature.
Remember that every second term President has suffered some kind of scandal. I believe that this election has the potential to be the mother of all scandals for this administration. But that would require the same kind of national level of action that has caused concern about the election(s) results. It will be interesting when words rise to the next level: ACTION. Then the media will find itself economically required to report these action/findings.
Good Luck Jim… (play theme music from Mission: Impossible)
Posted by Tony Tiger on Feb 17, 2005 at 5:06 AM TruthIsAll (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-17-05 04:16 AM
Original message
So all those new, young, single, liberal women voted for Bush?
Edited on Thu Feb-17-05 04:34 AM by TruthIsAll
The National Exit Poll had Kerry winning the bulk of the 21
million new voters by a 3-2 margin. As a result, he won the
election by 50.8-48.2%.But Edison/Mitofsky claim that Bush voters were reluctant to
tell exit pollsters who the voted for. Apparently, E/M never
read their own report; the data says just the opposite: Bush
voters in heavy GOP precincts were more apt to speak to the
pollsters. If so, Kerry’s margin was even bigger than 2.6%.And that’s not even considering all those Democrats who were
disenfranchised or stood on line but never got a chance to
vote.Inquiring minds: So where did Bush get his 12 million new
voters from, as compared to 2000?(Votes in thousands)
20002004Pct2000Pct2000Pct2004Pct 2004 Pct 2004Chg
StateVotesVotesChgBushVoteGoreVoteBushVoteKerryVoteBushKerry
Total10433912217117.1P,45647.87Q,00048.38b,02950.77Y,02648.31%2.90%-0.07%HI36542917.6837.79 556.28445.26#254.01%7.47%-2.28%
RI4054367.6132.231.59938.77&059.57%6.54%-2.02%
NJ3,1683,61014.0%1,28440.54%1,78956.47%1,66846.21%1,91152.95%5.66%-3.52%
AL1,6521,88313.9156.97i341.92%1,17662.49i436.86%5.52%-5.06%
TN2,0632,43718.1%1,06251.46247.58%1,38456.80%1,03642.53%5.33%-5.05%CT1,4421,5799.5V138.92656.61i443.94754.31%5.02%-2.30%
NY6,7557,3899.4%2,40335.58%4,10860.81%2,96340.10%4,31458.39%4.52%-2.42%
OK1,2191,46420.1t461.08G438.92065.57P434.43%4.49%-4.49%
MA2,6692,9058.9932.92%1,61660.58%1,07436.97%1,80462.09%4.05%1.51%
WV64375617.63652.36)545.98B456.062743.20%3.71%-2.78%DE32637515.2742.16055.29245.77 053.36%3.61%-1.93%
LA1,7411,93911.4853.30y245.52%1,10256.85042.31%3.54%-3.21%
UT75492722.9Q568.32 326.93f471.64$126.03%3.32%-0.90%
AZ1,5132,01333.1x251.67h545.31%1,10454.87444.40%3.19%-0.91%
KS1,0581,18812.3b258.849937.75s662.00C536.62%3.17%-1.13%NE69077712.6C462.86#233.58Q365.98%432.72%3.12%-0.86%
FL5,9237,60428.4%2,91349.18%2,91249.17%3,96552.14%3,58447.13%2.96%-2.04%
KY1,5351,79617.0256.86c941.63%1,06959.55q339.69%2.69%-1.95%
MD2,0132,38418.4440.42%1,14656.91%1,02542.98%1,33455.97%2.56%-0.94%
IN2,1662,46813.9%1,24657.51241.64%1,47959.95939.26%2.44%-2.37%MO2,3402,73116.7%1,19050.86%1,11147.49%1,45653.30%1,25946.10%2.44%-1.39%
CA10,84712,39214.2%4,56742.11%5,86154.03%5,51044.46%6,74554.43%2.36%0.40%
GA2,5493,29929.4%1,42055.69%1,11643.78%1,91458.03%1,36641.41%2.34%-2.37%
AR9091,05616.1G352.02B346.50W354.26F944.40%2.24%-2.10%
NM59475627.2(648.18(748.247749.847149.05%1.66%0.80%PA4,8705,76618.4%2,28146.84%2,48651.04%2,79448.46%2,93850.96%1.62%-0.08%
IL4,7125,27511.9%2,01942.86%2,58954.94%2,34644.46%2,89254.82%1.61%-0.12%
MN2,4052,82317.4%1,11046.15%1,16848.58%1,34747.71%1,44551.20%1.57%2.61%
TX6,3717,41016.3%3,80059.64%2,43438.20%4,52761.09%2,83338.23%1.45%0.03%
MI4,2084,83815.0%1,95346.42%2,17051.58%2,31447.83%2,47951.25%1.41%-0.34%WI2,5742,99316.3%1,23748.06%1,24348.28%1,47849.38%1,49049.76%1.32%1.48%
IA1,3021,50515.6c448.71c949.03u249.96t249.29%1.24%0.26%
MS9861,13815.5W358.12@541.05g359.10E740.13%0.97%-0.92%
VA2,7143,19317.6%1,43752.96%1,21744.85%1,71753.77%1,45545.56%0.81%0.71%
SC1,3721,61617.8x657.30V641.23858.06f240.96%0.76%-0.27%WA2,4602,85716.2%1,10945.08%1,24850.73%1,30545.67%1,51052.86%0.59%2.13%
AK27531213.3760.84y28.71161.22135.61%0.38%6.89%
DC20122713.29.01285.72!9.37 389.43%0.36%3.72%
ND28031311.9562.5334.08762.86135.50%0.33%1.42%
OH4,6555,62520.8%2,35150.51%2,18646.96%2,86050.84%2,74148.73%0.33%1.77%NH56267620.3'448.67&647.383148.994150.35%0.32%2.97%
OR1,5111,82820.9q447.22r047.66747.42351.60%0.21%3.94%
CO1,7132,12824.2451.58s843.09%1,10151.76%1,00247.08%0.18%4.00%
NV59782638.40250.55(046.93A950.709748.09%0.14%1.16%
ME64474115.1(744.532049.713044.589753.57%0.05%3.87%NC2,8893,50121.2%1,63156.46%1,25843.54%1,96156.02%1,52643.59%-0.44%0.05%
WY21324314.0869.44`28.39869.00q29.13%-0.44%0.74%
ID48859822.73769.06928.42@968.39130.26%-0.67%1.85%
MT40245012.1$059.78734.13&659.07438.57%-0.72%4.43%
SD31038825.4161.61938.39#359.91938.44%-1.70%0.06%VT2893117.5041.42951.53138.98459.22%-2.44%7.68%
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&addr ress=203x328578
Posted by Claire on Feb 17, 2005 at 5:54 AM This is (mostly) very thought provoking and painstakingly researched..
I must link it on my blog..
Well done :)
http://scaredinamerica.blogspot.com/
Posted by scaredinamerica on Feb 17, 2005 at 7:26 AM The arguments that Republicans have is that we shouldn’t doubt nor criticize the numbers that are obviously rigged. Thus they Win by criminal intent. But Republicans can’t think nor give a reasonable argument…. they only call their opponents names…. they refuse to see that maybe they might be wrong… whereas “liberals” are always self critical and capable of nuance and understanding that they aren’t going to always win nor be ‘right’. It’s purely REASON vs. Arrogance.
The same thing was done with Cost of Living Index by the Reagan Administration when they stopped counting the rising cost of rents (as it was ‘too hard’ to account for regional disparities…. they said) Thus, the Cost of Living Index doesn’t show the true nature of people’s cost of living going up and up.. while wages remain stagnant. Obviously the Unemployment Count is rigged too…as only those collecting unemployment benefits are counted….. (probably only a minority of the underemployed..) Republicans use Enron Accounting methods in all their dealings.. which is why they are lazy and corrupt…who despise people who actually work for a living.. (most Repugs I meet seem to be ‘salesmen’.) Republicans are people who win elections by trading with the enemy as Bush/Regain did with trading ARMs to Iran for Hostages in order to depose Jimmy Carter (no accident that the Iranians released hostages when Reagan was installed in the Presidency).
Posted by datadave on Feb 17, 2005 at 7:30 AM I am a relatively young, new, single, liberal woman voter. I live in a “blue” state. I had planned to vote Green, but in the end I voted for Kerry. He won me over with the debates. I felt voting for Kerry was needed to get Bush out of the White House. What is interesting is that I did not feel comfortable telling people I voted for Kerry. I only told a few close friends. I don’t buy the theory that people in exactly the same category as I am, hurried to vote for Bush or to talk to pollsters about voting for Kerry.
Posted by That Girl on Feb 17, 2005 at 7:50 AM Lest anyone be confused in last post of mine…Iran/hostages.. is the prior deal that Reagan’s operatives (read Bush 1 et al) just happened to acquire Iranian assistance in removing the embarrassing Presidency of J.Carter… who might have lost the election anyway due to the economy being sour ... but the constant fact that the Iranians were snubbing the USA with those hostages.. and that military attempts may have been thwarted by ‘sabotage’... helicoptors crashing in the desert so forth… indicates the October surprise that never happened…
Journalist Sick was often dismissed…(I vaguely remember him as being labeled a Christian Leftist.. some would say an oxymoron in itself) but open deliberations into possible Republican involvement w/ Iranian militants has never been pursued. And Democrat senators probably have their hands dirty too (so they were constrained in investigating.)... but the fact that Oliver North was also involved in the possible rescue of hostages…makes one pause.
After all why were the Watergate Burglers attacking the McGovern campaign?.. can Republicans even win a landslide w/o criminal conspiracies?
the Wellstone aircrash has never been conclusively proven to be an accident either.. btw.
also Republican Brenda in prior posts… really using someone as unscruplous as Dick Morris.. kind of puts your argument to rest (hey, I never said clinton was scruplous….either spelling?) Interesting only left wing websites allow both sides to debate.. try debating on a right wing site..? impossible as getting on Rush Limbaugh’s show
e.g.. http://wjcohen.home.mindspring.com/otherclips/sick.htm
Posted by datadave on Feb 17, 2005 at 8:12 AM Somebody mentioned Bush’s approval ratings. Here’s an interesting article:
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/20/2005/1156
Yesterday’s Gallup Poll Showing Bush Approval At 57% Had 9% More Republicans Than Democrats
by Steve Soto
February 12, 2005
Posted by That Girl on Feb 17, 2005 at 8:12 AM I don’t know if this election was stolen and I don’t know if the 2000 election was stolen. As a committed Democrat let me say that I haven’t seen enough proof for me to demand that criminal charges be brought against anyone. However, I am concerned that the politics that divide this country has made it so that people are afraid of investigating the “anomalies” formally. If Bush won this election fairly, I would think that the whole country would insist on an investigation. The Republicans would be able to prove that Democrats are “cry-babies” and the Democrats would get the investigation they’ve been asking for. Who would be the loser if an investigation was conducted? Let us all (Democrats and Republicans) demand an investigation so that we can move past this and have reprisentative government we all can acknowledge.
p.s. For those of you who like to look at the spelling so that you will have a reason to make a snide remark instead of responding to the issue, PLEASE STAY FOCUSED.
BTW - I intentionally spelled “representative” incorrectly so you would know if you fall into the above category.
Posted by concernedcitizen on Feb 17, 2005 at 9:11 AM Question: why does the USA vote on a weekday? I guess it is somewhere in the constitution or so, but it is unfair.
A rich man can vote on a workday without a problem. A middle-class man can vote on a workday, but may face some problems with his employer and may lose some payment. A poor man may not be able to vote on a workday at all, fearing to loose his job or the money he needs to pay his rent.
After the 2004 election poor people will stay away from the votes in even greater numbers. They now know that they could be standing in line for 12 hours. What if they have children to attend to? What if they have a demanding job that leaves them little time to vote (evenings) and are tired from work?
In (most of) Europe we vote on sunday. That makes everything a lot easier (for example traffic is lower). And in Germany we use hand-counting. We are a nation of 80 million people and STILL get the final results on monday evening, tuesday the latest.
There are more issues to the US-voting system, for example the system of electors is outdated by at least 100 years. My advice would be to dump all that, look around the world, get the best ideas and start over from scratch. It might do the USA a world of good!
Posted by Martin on Feb 17, 2005 at 1:32 PM Wow, more DUmmie rantings that nobody is paying attention to.
(Artie Lange)Whaaa Bush stole the election Whaaa
yet there is no proof WhaaaaDUmmies are the most unhappy people in the world.
Funny DUmmies make me laugh HaHaHaHa
Posted by fatima on Feb 17, 2005 at 2:47 PM thanks, Martin.
Those are ideas that bothered me too as an American. We make voting hard for poorer people that’s true. We didn’t allow most of the population to vote for much of the history of the republic… or early confederacy. Particularly in southern states, Blacks weren’t allowed, women only got the vote about a century ago. It is a conservative country in many ways…. the US was last (except for Arabian nations) to ban slavery. And considering how Walmart treats their workers… (our largest employer .. at subminimum wages compared to Ireland and other EU nations).. slavery is still in effect in the USA.
Interesting rightwing web sites don’t allow “liberals” to post but rightwingers feel free to post here.
Posted by datadave on Feb 17, 2005 at 3:14 PM datadave, it’s that whole freedom of speech thing. Liberals are for it, right wingers aren’t.
Posted by Claire on Feb 17, 2005 at 3:30 PM A Rethug,
Come,you are a tedious fool.To the purpose.
-Measure for Measure
Quote Shakespeare to an English Literature teacher next time.I am well aware of the melodrama of my essay.It was deliberate.I am also aware that jobs were outsourced during the Clinton administration.Furthermore,I can extrapolate that most of the politicians in my party don’t not care about me on a personal level.
Let’s get to the center of my argument.Re-partisan politicians care about two things,getting rich from their job and exerting control over others to ensure they can do this as long as possible.The Bush administration does,I admit,have family values,unfortunately they’re Corleone family values.
Re-partisans have a long history of siding with the wealthy and abandoning the poor.Under every Re-party administration since 1980,the Re-party have cut benefits for social welfare programs and frozen the minimum wage while giving away billions in tax benefits and corporate welfare,weakening government regulation and enforcement.Millions of jobs are created,yet even more jobs are lost.The Dow Jones may hit record highs but what did this mean in terms of dollars in worker’s pockets?
Something else,Has anyone noticed that, despite all of these budget cuts,federal spending has never decreased?Where does all this money go?Especially under conservative administrations.Isn’t it odd that conservatives have never balanced the budget?.Strangely,it took a"liberal” to do that,and a “conservative"to quickly wreck it by giving money to rich people on the hope that they’d use it wisely.The trick didn’t work twenty years ago,but Re-partisans thought people would be dumb enough to fall for it again.They were right.
The purpose of government is to benefit the citizenry,while symbiotically,the citizenry contributes to the well-being of their government.For this reason many democrats,like myself,are veterans and chose careers which we knew would be arduous,thankless,and miserly in pay yet directly benefit the citizenry.Re-partisans seem to either be unable to understand these concepts or they have contempt for them.
Frankly,I don’t care what my party thiks of me,I do care what they do to benefit my country and fellow citizens.
Oh,Fatima,your mother just called.She wanted me to ask you what kind of cake you want for your fifth birthday party.
Posted by wwoods on Feb 17, 2005 at 3:39 PM I would love to see the Electoral College abolished. It is true that it is antiquated and unfair.
Months befoe the election “BusinessWeek” magazine ran an issue that raised questions regarding the neccessity of the Electoral College and whether every vote should count. I think every vote should count. But is there any follow up discussions concerning the EC? No.
Poeple don’t care. The gov’t is just too big. People have daily business to take care of and politics are for the rich. The apathy is collossal.
Posted by pick of the litter on Feb 17, 2005 at 4:05 PM to Pat Grzybowski,
If you think the Supreme Court was acting in an impartial manner in 2000, maybe you were like, on another planet at the time. Maybe you’ve heard about this guy Antonin Scalia who is a Chief Justice of the Supreme court. Did you know that his son was the lawyer representing Bush in the recount case? Did you know that he has shown on several occasions that he doesn’t give a rat’s ass about presiding over cases where his presence is an obvious conflict of interest? Open your eyes, man… everyone’s scratching everyone else’s back, and you’re totally naive if you don’t realize that by now.
Posted by PenalColony on Feb 17, 2005 at 4:34 PM This is a real stinky scandal.
The integrity of the White House press just gets better every day.
http://mediamatters.org/topics/gannongate.html
Posted by pick of the litter on Feb 17, 2005 at 4:55 PM Claire’s point number 18:
18.All - not some - but all the voting machine errors detected and reported in Florida went in favor of Bush or Republican candidates.
is for me the most damning. And I don’t think it was just Florida, was it? That “all” in there, if it does not reek of fish, I’m taking the wrong drugs.What sure worries me is that, for example, Democratic congressmen and women have been so thoroughly browbeaten by the Rs into going along with the ‘idea’ that an investigation of the—for me at least—sufficiently massive volume of pockets of stinky air would be gravely threatening to the existence of our country as it is. I worry they buy the ‘security’ angle, ‘cause it’s a good arguement.
If I, as a politician, were faced with the weight of the ‘majority’ on me, I can easily see myself convincing myself that by ignoring this rancid election I was helping to ‘preserve’ America. With the exception of just a brave few, like Conyers, there were not many who stood up and said, “This is supposed to be our strength. This why we’re such a great country. Events of this magnitude Have to be conducted right, and if there’s this much evidence of a problem, it has to be investigated well and, if necessary, fixed.
America does not depend on any one president. Count the ones we’ve had. Lost a few at bad times, too, didn’t we? Although there’s somthing less of it, America’s still here. Prove to me that the president we have is there properly, and I will sit down and be quiet. And don’t tell me they’re “studying the exit polls.” They are raw data and do not need to be “studied” until some certain time. How long was it? Tell me they’re “studying what to Do with the exit polls.” And I’ll know you’re a straight-shooter.
This election stinks. I am not proud of the fact we are pretty much doing nothing about looking very carefully into any and all of the reported problems. There are simply too many.
Posted by Chris on Feb 17, 2005 at 5:08 PM GIVING IT ONE MORE SHOT:
I posted this yesterday, and no one (to my great surprise) commented on it, so I’m giving it another shot as I’d really like to know what people have to say on the points I bring up. Otherwise, unfortunately, I have to assume that people just want to talk and present their points of view without really caring of it makes a difference or not, and I’d really hate to think that’s the case as it doesn’t accomplish anything. Here goes:
I’d honestly like to know what people think of what I have to say. Firstly, I’m definitely of the opinion that the election was stolen, that our democracy exists only as a fantasy, that this administration is evil, etc., so you know where I come from. The problem I’ve encountered are two-fold:
1. What can be done about it?
2. Trying to convert the other side to your point of view is a waste of time.For me, and it might seem silly to some, the only reasonable thing I can do to “do something about it” is to pray - to pray for the war and madness to stop, to pray that we get a government that actually wants to help people and problems at home and in the world. Talking about it with people on the other side of the fence has basically gotten me a whole lot of nothing. Maybe it’s the undecideds and open minded and fence sitters we need to go after, because honestly, the possibility of me getting someone that agrees with the right wing conservative christian republican point of view on things to suddenly see the Light and change their point of view is exactly the same possibility of one of them convincing me that war is justified or that homosexuality is wrong - i.e., it’s NOT going to happen. I guess that putting out stories like this one are important, but then again, they always (because of our lovely media) end up showing up in the alternative press, and the people who read the alternative press either do because they know the regular press isn’t telling the truth, or they’re trying to actively refute the alternative press and get people to buy into all the b.s. While putting out articles like this one are noble, and I’m sure necessary, it seems to accomplish little. So, I’m still left with:
1. What can be done about it?
2. Trying to convert the other side to your point of view is a waste of time.I do believe the truth will come out because I have an unreasonable belief and faith in the good side of the force (if you will), but how and when this will happen I know not. All I personally can do at the moment is pray and trust that God (or whatever you want to call it in whatever way you want to believe in it) will deliver…
Posted by Gary on Feb 17, 2005 at 5:11 PM Gary,
Don’t despair. I was recently reading an online pub called “The Conservative Voice”, not because I am one, but because they had a pretty interesting message board concerning the Gannon/Guckert scandal. You’d be amazed at how many Repubs and Fundies posted that “that was the last straw” and they’re all through supporting Bush and the Neocon administration. There is hope yet for people to accept REAL reality instead of the Orwellian reality of doublethink the WH has put forth.
Posted by PenalColony on Feb 17, 2005 at 5:34 PM I think you all are giving too much weight to the polls. It is never the case that what statisticians predict will definitely occur. Your odds of winnning the lottery are terrible. A mathematician will tell you that you will not win. Yet, it is possible that you will win.
The biggest question is whether the polls represented a good sample of voters. I didn’t notice anyone doing exit polls when I voted…
Posted by Lewis on Feb 17, 2005 at 5:35 PM All the more reason to have international observers to make sure our elections are fair. Don’t we offer this service to other countries? Seems we are behind even the Ukraine!
Posted by Chris on Feb 17, 2005 at 5:37 PM Gary,
Huh?
“All I personally can do at the moment is pray and trust that God (or whatever you want to call it in whatever way you want to believe in it) will deliver”So, what you really mean is that there is nothing you can do?
Posted by Lewis on Feb 17, 2005 at 5:37 PM To All of Us Who Are Awake and Smelling the Coffee:
I enjoyed the really intelligent and well-researched data put on the site yesterday. Claire, you are amazing. Please run for office.
Last night I re-read the day’s input and two comments beyond the main discussion point rang so true to me.
1. The quote (loosely put) “Educating a closed mind is like trying to give medicine to a dead man.”
2. “Kurtis, you’re neither trying to learn nor teach anyone anything here…”
What really struck home with me, and I hope with the rest of you who don’t plug their ears and sing “La-la-la-la” when people try to give you new information, is that the “ReThugs” of this world only seek to diminish and destroy. They have no interest in seeking the truth, they just want to be Number 1 and squash those they feel that are below them. Every Republican blogger yesterday did nothing to further the discussion, and their evidence (except Brenda, whose evidence was just party rhetoric) was composed of insults.
So what’s the big lesson here? I propose that whenever a rude Republican blogger jumps on the thread, just ignore them. If no one ever reacts to their statements, what a bore for them. Just a piece of advice, Jesus told us, “don’t cast your pearls before swine”, so let’s take his advice.
Posted by Margaret on Feb 17, 2005 at 5:59 PM Kurtis and Justin reflect the hilarity the GOP experiences at our expense. They know as well
as we do the election was rigged. They sit
back and say one simplistic comment about
us being sore loosers and getting over it
and gain amusement watching us twist and
turn explaining what they know for fact.They are either far more intelligent than the
simplicity of their statements (Kurtis falls
in this category, I’d gather) reflect and use
it to gain support of those that simple sort
of rhetoric appeals to; or they are actually
that simple (Justin) to say such things and
actually mean them - trusting the GOP.How else can a party set up by/for the rich which make up a small part of the population be able to even be competitive without adopting stances on divisive issues to pull from those who’d otherwise vote Democrat?
This is why the vast majority of gay-haters and new-Christians especially tend to be simple folk in lower income brackets. So that’s who they sell to, and it works.
Corporations do advertising well, the art of selling something to you that you really don’t benefit from. Whether it’s on a store shelf or it’s an empty suite who’s more marketable than the two fat, bald, bespectacled men who are really running the show (Karl & Dick).
Mark D.
Posted by Mark D. on Feb 17, 2005 at 6:01 PM Gary, I hear you - it is so frustrating to know what’s going on, but because of our republican-owned media in this country, there aren’t as many of us as there would be if the truth were told in our newspapers and television. People are sheep evidently and they go which they are told to go and believe what they are told to believe. So, what to do? I know one thing - I’m not contributing to any more elections until I know our votes will count again. When you win an election (and Kerry did) and still “lose”, America is in real trouble. Bush stole the elction in 2000, the 2002 elections were definitely fixed too and now this. What will it take to wake Americans up? They’re taking social securtiy away, environmental protections and the war in Iraq kills more and more people (Americans too) and nobody really seems to notice or care. Of course, the media is what keeps it all going. Prayer is certainly important - and not supporting the corporate economy is something we can do. There must be something - join a group - start a group? Wait and watch while Amrica goes down the tubes? I would move to Canada if I could - Canada is the country we all dream of - low crime, gun control, health care for all, environmental protection, abortion rights, gay rights, civilized people, support for peace. Anyway, I love Claire’s posts - she is so right on!!
Posted by mary on Feb 17, 2005 at 6:14 PM Mary—
There is something we can do besides praying. Join your local chapter of the DNC or whatever group you think could work en masse to save our country. You would be surprised how very few people turn up at the meetings. Even a month before the election, there were only about 30 people, and two were Republicans who came to harrass. Howard Dean is right. We have to build from the grass roots up.
Posted by Margaret on Feb 17, 2005 at 6:18 PM > By the way, it’s “beginners”, not “begginers”.
Amusing Brenda, I love how so many who post spelling corrections are always on your side.
Rather than tackle the issue at hand, pick up
crumbs when the kitchen is on fire.Quoting Dick Morris. Hilarious. The same guy who was fired by Clinton after finding out about his own extramarital buffoonery and coke habit, etc.
Now he’s suddenly on Fox all the time, I guess they pay better.
About the Florida post-election recount efforts.
SORRY, you’re wrong again. But I applaud your attempt to give lengthy intelligent answers instead of quick soundbytes that echo that take I’d just given on simplistic answer folks.Every media source that did a recount after the Supremes did their thing for Bush concluded it was won by Bush. Every one except one.
They all just recounted the Democratic areas that Gore & Co. wanted recounted (Gore’s biggest post election error - not demanding it be statewide, and thus having no equal protection violations).
All except one, USA TODAY. Only they did a state-wide recount. Only they concluded with that he actually won Florida by close to 100 votes.
So Gore won the popular vote AND should have won the Electoral vote too. Truth hurts, doesn’t it?
Mark D.
Posted by Mark D. on Feb 17, 2005 at 6:20 PM David, David, David, you are sorely mistaken, and are in obvious need of a refresher course on constitutional law. I’d suggest you go back to Cracker Jack U and have them reopen those books for you. Lord have mercy on your clients.
It is entirely up to the states to set up and manage presidential elections. It has nothing to do with the US government, except that the electors from each state are sent to the US government (congress) to deliver their votes, and that US government candidates are being chosen. The election itself is a state run, state monitored, state controlled function.
Not only did the SCOTUS have no jurisdiction over this presidential election in FL in 2000, but the ruling that they delivered was completely, 100% flawed and uable to stand scrutiny, which is why they did not sign their decision, and also why they specifically stated that the ruling served no precedence for any other case. In other words, they pulled it out of their butts, and they knew it.
In reality, had the ruling of equal protection truly been asserted in this case, NONE of the votes would’ve been counted for EITHER candidate, because the equal protection law could just as easily be used in Gore’s favor as in Bush’s, and in fact, SHOULD have been applied to both, as per the very interpretation of the law. If Bush was harmed as a result of a violation of equal protection, based upon the fact that there was no statewide voting standard in FL, then Gore was harmed in precisely the same manner.
There are so few legal scholars or attorneys that side with this fraudulant decision that they really don’t even measure. One thing that you’ll notice on the rare occassion that you actually do see someone side with this ruling, is that they will provide no substantive research documentation to back up their findings. They are all “Davids,” in that they speak their opinion without having based it in any facts whatsoever.
On the other hand, the hundreds of legal scholars and attorneys who have stood up in protest of this fraudulant decision have reams of documentation to back up their stance.
The FL supreme court was enforcing FL state law, which mandated a FULL, THOROUGH, HAND recount in the case of an election being as close as this was. Of course, team Bush knew full well that they would never “win” if a full recount was conducted, so they went to a fullcourt legal press, and in doing so, attempted to adhere strict, rigid guidelines as to which votes could be counted or not. THIS is where the problems arose.
As we all know by now, when the ONLY full, hand recount WAS finally conducted, by the famous newspaper consortium, it was found that in nearly every counting scenario, Gore won. The only scenario in which Gore would’ve LOST, in fact (and quite ironically), was the standard that the Gore team was attempting to apply, which was undervotes.
Of course, our ever-vigilant “liberal media” brought us this stunning news long after the bogus election, in paragraph 16 under a headline entitled “BUSH WINS…..AGAIN.” Hmmmmm…..Bush wins, yet in paragraph 16, those readers that actually made it that far into the article learned that, in fact, Gore had won. Interesting.
Lost in the discussion of the fraudulant SCOTUS decision on Dec. 12, 2000, however, is the fact that the theft of election 2000 began long before the vote took place, and included such notables as a corrupt republican FL governor and his corrupt secretary of state, who conspired to illegally purge legal voters from voting lists (against the FL supreme court order, btw).
Also, corruption took the form of defective machines placed in democratic precincts, precincts shut down for no reason, threats of police arrest of black voters, republican operatives calling democratic voters to tell them that “Because of a large volume of voters turning out, we’re asking that republican voters vote on Tues, and democrats on Wed,” electronic voting machines owned by extremist Christian fundamentalists who openly support GOP candidates, etc., etc., etc.
The fraud occurred at so many levels that it was truly difficult to grasp the entire scope of it. And of course, it was fine tuned in 2002, and “perfected” in 2004. In all three of the past elections, you can see the exact same patterns of voter fraud, voter disenfranchisement, corrupt secretaries of state, electronic voting machines with no paper trail, mysterious vote flipping, bizarre and inexplicible exit polling and final polling results in comparison with official results, and on and on and on.
Unless, until there is a paper trail attached to these voting machines and there is FULL transparency in the counting process, with public oversight, democrats will never, ever win another major election in this country. The fix is definitely in, friends.
Posted by Ralph Cramden on Feb 17, 2005 at 6:35 PM Do you all think that the public still cares—or would care if they knew—or have they “moved on”?
Posted by Curious on Feb 17, 2005 at 6:54 PM Curious,
Sadly, I think that the majority of Americans do not care. Let’s face it, people are just into their daily lives, who owns what, who’s dating who, what new car is hot, etc.
I went to the University of Heidelberg in the 70’s and I used to think walking down those streets, “Wow, 40 years ago Nazis were in control here, marching down these very streets”. I used to wonder why people hadn’t gotten out of Germany earlier, once they saw what was happening. But you know, it’s the same point as above. They had jobs, kids, spouses, mortgages. They were focused on their lives, and they didn’t mentally exercise their ability to reason beyond the immediately tangible. By the time they did, it was too late.
I’m very sad to see that Americans, too, have fallen into this malaise.
Posted by Margaret on Feb 17, 2005 at 7:06 PM I would submit that if the “liberal media” were making an issue over this, the American public WOULD care. Every single person that I’ve ever shared this with, whether they knew it previously or not, are dumbfounded as to why this is happening unchecked.
Let’s face it, it behooves ALL of us, liberal, democratic, green, communist, neocon, conservative, republican, fascist, whatever, to see to it that our election process is not only fair, but that it is 100% transparent and entirely reliable. If we cannot verify our votes, what is the purpose? The entire act becomes nothing more than a show, which, come to think of it, is probably the intent.
I hate to say it, but I don’t feel terribly confident about the future of American democracy. I think we’ve already lost it, and we may NEVER get it back. We surely won’t get it back by allowing the “liberal media” to continue hiding this type of information.
Posted by Ralph Cramden on Feb 17, 2005 at 7:13 PM It was a close election…so we have to acknowledge the oponents. Now, another side to the story:
I liked Kerry, but he ran a lame campaign. In some ways I thought the election went sour when he didn’t do much campaigning in the late summer, instead was seen sailboarding near Nantucket, while the smear artists of the Repugs were fullout attacking him.
Another ?? Why did Kerry not spend all the campaign moneies available… and did he really want the Presidency. Some have suggested that the economy is so bad that whoever got the Presidency is presiding over a Hoover type of Presidency and that Party in power would get all the blame… William Greider’s column last of the last year…says it: http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041108&s=greider
Just perhaps Kerry knew he’d lose and didn’t fight it??? John Edwards on the other hand sort of got screwed.. he gave up his Senate seat didn’t he.. while Kerry didn’t.what can we do? Perhaps be more active in turning the Democratic Party away from the losing strategies of the Clinton wing, Democratic Leadership Council conservatism.. and seek a more radical street fighting personna to match the hardcore Fascist machine of Bush/NeoCon/Rove types. And don’t discount everything Nader’s saying.. that corportations are the heart of both the National Parties… Make the Democrats again the working people’s and middleclass party.. while maintaining it’s intellectual edge. A tough proposition.. but Dean’s right No More Republican Lite.. as that’s failed in the last 25 years….
Posted by datadave on Feb 17, 2005 at 7:49 PM in last post.. I still admit that probably Kerry won the popular vote If a Proper Hand Count was offered… but none the less it was a Close election.. so that’s another reason that we still have to admit the possibility that a majority of the voters are dupped, fooled by a overwhelming Right wind Media controlled onslot of disinformation…
In the New Yorker there’s an article about Karl Rove still being outraged that the “mainstream media” didn’t notice his killer machine of organization.. and he made one point.. that the Republicans were active in organizing battle ground states.. while Democrats only started a year before the election. Probably Diebold’s black box secret codes threw the election.. but we have to acknowledge that Rove et al coulda won it fair even under totally transparent conditions…. I think paper ballots, hand counting as in Germany and Canada is far more efficient and fair.. they are able to know the election’s outcome by midnight no matter what and with far less controversy than our secretive proprietary controlled ‘black box’ counting methods. Part of the reason for American’s unjustified belief in technology is that local officials are ‘sold’ a bill of goods that electronic voting is better… so that those officials don’t have to round up as many volunteers on election day. But American methods are more expensive, non transparent as a result. Reminds me of our unfair inefficient and expensive health care system.
Posted by datadave on Feb 17, 2005 at 8:09 PM Lewis,
Regarding this:
Gary,
Huh?
“All I personally can do at the moment is pray and trust that God (or whatever you want to call it in whatever way you want to believe in it) will deliver”So, what you really mean is that there is nothing you can do?
I guess it’s a matter of personal belief, as I believe prayer can really create miracles, but if you believe that it does nothing, I completely respect you and that point of view. My point was that talking about it seemed to do very little, but maybe I’m wrong. I apprecaite the suggestions others have made and I’m sure people can also understand my despair and frustration in the direction the W. and his lot have taken the country and the world in the past 4+ years. Anyway, thanks…
Posted by Gary on Feb 17, 2005 at 10:06 PM I like how ‘brad’ was the first one and then after all of Claire’s facts (and everybody else’s) he just shut the hell up. You have to realize though, that that’s what the normal dude is going to say. There is no doubt in my mind that individuals have taken over the republican party and are using Christian morals and patriotism (and lots of CASH) to make the average Joe believe in what they are saying. To be quite honest, it is silly to spend these four years trying to prove that BOTH elections were frauds and that right wing conservatives are trying to take over the world… WE KNOW THEY WERE- might as well investigate whether O.J. had a hand in this! There are more important things that need to be done. Spend our time/resources wisely. We need to get to the younger people (“change is good!”). We need to take back television. MORE Ads!! (I know people try and try and the Republicans stop them, but we can do it)
Whatever… all I’m saying is that if I made some pudding and we tasted it, people could spend 4 years deciding whether it tasted really really bad… by the time you would come to the decision that my pudding was bad, I could have made some really good pudding.
hmm… looking back, that was a strange analogy, but you get my drift… I’m at home sick and the day quill is goooooood. Ok… peaceout America… lets stop wasting time figuring out how evil these assholes are and who they are… lets just change shit and make bright, free-thinkers for the future. The past sucks… moving on…
Posted by NathanLynn on Feb 17, 2005 at 10:31 PM Hi all
I wanted to first say thanks for the compliments! I’m humbled! :) I am on many a forum so have access to a lot of info that way.
Second, there is something we can do. NathanLynn touched on it as well, though there is value in investigating the past I think in addition - after all, it won’t come out if it isn’t. BUT, what we can do to move forward is to support those with legislation that requires a paper ballot on any of the machines. Also, join or start a State Progressive Caucus - Progressive Democrats of America (PDA) is making election reform their #1 issue. Check them out at www.pdamerica.org - there you can also contact your representatives about supporting the bills I mentioned before.
RUN FOR OFFICE! Help out locally. Educate people about this issue. Educate your representatives as well. Many have been brainwashed into thinking HAVA requires we go electronic and that a voter verifiable paper ballot isn’t needed and will only cost more money. Wrong. It’s lobbyists in bed with the machine makers feeding them that line of bull. You can find the facts here:
http://www.votersunite.org/MB2.pdf
Print out the table of contents and fax them to your representatives and election officials with a link to the entire document, or better yet, after you fax the TOC, make an appointment to meet with them and hand deliver it. For more info, go here http://www.votersunite.org
Keep it up!
Posted by Claire on Feb 17, 2005 at 11:41 PM Ralph, Ralph, Ralph. I daresay I agree with nearly everything you said. I don’t know why you think I don’t unless there is some other David who is a lawyer posting on this board.
But the point I really wanted to make is that the problem started with the Florida Legislature in that election laws are designed for state offices not federal ones.
If there is a problem with an election of your state representative, it may take nine months or a year to go through the recount process and legal process to resolve it. Very common in election cases. That is how long they take. And who cares if the state is one representative shy for nine months or so. It is no big deal.
But these same laws also have to apply to the Presidential election because of the electoral college. A nine month delay here and the issue is moot.
That is why I say systemic election fraud should be called an election coup. There is nothing realistically that the courts can do about it.
One other point: I had always heard that there was a real question as to whether Gore could ask for a statewide recount. According to the Washington Post:
Nor was there any guarantee that Gore could have succeeded in getting a statewide recount. Florida law provided no mechanism to ask for a statewide recount, only county-by-county recounts.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12623-2001Nov11.html
Gore offered, but Bush declined. According to the Post, Bush would have won unless Gore could have asked for a statewide recount.
Again, this points to the problem that a state election law creates for a national election.
The one problem that clearly would have made a difference in Florida was the one people did not hear about but was reported by Greg Palast—between 50,000 and 90,000 blacks were stricken from the voter rolls on the grounds that the were felons when they were not. That was a real travesty and their votes would have clearly produced a victory for Gore.
Posted by David on Feb 18, 2005 at 1:14 AM Gary:
I am having some success with sending out Freeman’s articles nad USCountVote analyses. It depends on who you send them to. Pick the smartest most educated people you know and send these articles to them. Send ChuckHerrin’s article.
These articles get educated people wondering. It also helps them begin to see what they have been missing by relying on the MSM for their news and may turn them to the internet.
It happened to me when the war started.
Posted by David on Feb 18, 2005 at 1:31 AM Where did those 300 “uncounted” ballot boxes in Iraq come from anyway?
Posted by matilda on Feb 18, 2005 at 1:48 AM Thanks Dr Freeman!
The Republican party has been taken over by End-Time Christians. I recommend you bookmark this new resource:
http://www.theocracywatch.org
Let me quote one of those folks:
“It is dominion we are after.
Not just a voice.
Not just influence.
Not just equal time”Very few Americans are actually aware of that reality. When enough of us know about this, we will be able to take our country back.
Posted by Joe Progressive on Feb 18, 2005 at 4:35 AM I am up way too late. Just had to say to Joe Progressive that I followed that link. First time there.
What an eye opener. Really really scary. Loads of evidence and links.
Bush is more radical than I could have imagined.
Extremist to the extreme. Reincarnated Nazis.
Where is the gospel of Love and Tolerance and Kindness?
Posted by pick of the litter on Feb 18, 2005 at 7:28 AM Joe Progressive
I hope everyone goes to that site. I was aware of it but haven’t seen it as well laid out as it is there. CHILLING. These people aren’t real Christians.
Posted by Claire on Feb 18, 2005 at 3:20 PM Claire,
Great to see you blogging again! Enjoyed you and Ralph the other day. Yes, it is true that the Republican Party has envisioned themselves as the “Christianizers” of America. Unfortunately, when you compare their deeds witht the teachings of Jesus, they fall very short. “Pharisees” would be a better description.
While, as we discussed the other day, I am a Christian, I am also a Democrat and abhor the current administration and the attitude of our country. I, too, do believe in the Rapture and the Tribulation period, etc. However, the Bible is pretty specific that all men are sinful and there is “nothing new under the sun”, so I don’t know how this Moral Majority considers themselves such beacons to the “lost”. It is very clear that no government will ever be truly just until Jesus Christ himself reigns, and the last time I looked, Bush could not lay that mantle on himself!
One thing that is scary to me is that when the backlash occurs (and it will eventually), people like me will be ostracized and ridiculed for their beliefs. Both sides need to remember that while I cannot and should not impose my beliefs on you (rather we are instructed to share our faith in a loving manner), it is also my right to maintain my beliefs and not suffer persecution for them. The blade cuts both ways.
At the moment, however, I am very embarrassed by the behavior of most mainstream Christians who are actually behaving more like Nazis than ambassadors of Christ.
Posted by Margaret on Feb 18, 2005 at 6:48 PM Bush Supporter Vanity Fair Reporter Christopher Hitchens has seen the light, calling for an investigation into the Ohio election. http://www.vanityfair.com/commentary/content/articles/050214roco05
Hitchens checked with an election machine manufacturing expert and he writes:
“I asked her, finally, what would be the logical grounds for deducing that any tampering had in fact occurred. ‘Well, I understand from what I have read,’ she said, ‘that the early exit polls on the day were believed by both parties.’ That, I was able to tell her from direct experience, was indeed true. But it wasn’t quite enough, either. So I asked, ‘What if all the anomalies and malfunctions, to give them a neutral name, were distributed along one axis of consistency: in other words, that they kept on disadvantaging only one candidate?’ My question was hypothetical, as she had made no particular study of Ohio, but she replied at once: ‘Then that would be quite serious.’”
Then, Hitchens concludes:
“I am not any sort of statistician or technologist, and (like many Democrats in private) I did not think that John Kerry should have been president of any country at any time. But I have been reviewing books on history and politics all my life, making notes in the margin when I come across a wrong date, or any other factual blunder, or a missing point in the evidence. No book is ever free from this. But if all the mistakes and omissions occur in such a way as to be consistent, to support or attack only one position, then you give the author a lousy review. The Federal Election Commission, which has been a risible body for far too long, ought to make Ohio its business. The Diebold company, which also manufactures A.T.M.s, should not receive another dime until it can produce a voting system that is similarly reliable. And Americans should cease to be treated like serfs or extras when they present themselves to exercise their franchise.”
Additionally, Blackwell was recently blasted by Ohio Republican congressman Bob Ney for refusing to testify in front of a bi-partisan congressional committee investigating the 2004 presidential election: “[w]e can have disagreements, but you can’t run and you can’t hide.” Blackwell also recently claimed in federal court that the federal courts had no jurisdiction over his actions in a federal election.
So, Repugs, do you think he has something to hide?
Posted by AmericanInsurgent on Feb 18, 2005 at 8:17 PM -
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