A Corrupted Election

Kurt, I so agree. In fact, I’ve been doing my best in the Dutch press by posting on news forums (my Dutch is limited but I had to try). Specifically, here:
http://vpro.react.nl/programma/tegenlicht/forum/list_messages/839

and

http://vpro.react.nl/programma/tegenlicht/forum/list_messages/797

If you speak another language, I urge you to post on foreign forums.

Thanks Kurt!

Don’t you find it deliciously ironic that exit polls in the Ukraine that showed a radically skewed vote count were loudly trumpeted by the bushiz worldwide as proof of a corrupted election, but the same exit polling done here for the last three elections that showed these fascists lost their butts both in statewide contests and national votes are produced from the fevered minds of america-hating liberals? I just love hipocrasy, don’t you?
I also keep hearing that the elections are old news and get over it. Yet you should hear the pissing and moaning coming from republicans here in Washington State over the (count ‘em) four govenorship recounts that finally was certified by a republican Sec of State as an accurate recount that the democrats won! He was an honest man who broke party ranks to tell the truth. Given the record of trashing opponents, I would assume his political career is dead in the water, wouldn’t you think?
Outrage? It’s all over the place. Protests, yeah if you like being in a caged “free speech zone” and have your picture taken by the fbi. Or maybe having liquid pepper spray fingered into your eyes like those environmentalist kids in Humboldt County by sheriffs while you’re handcuffed and laying on the ground (ruled “justifiable” by the justice system…).
Protest becomes widespread only when you have nothing left to lose, and the jellyfish citizens of our country haven’t hit that point…yet. If you follow any of the financial news (the non-whitewashed kind), we’re on the brink of absolute and deliberately caused national bankruptcy. Tax cuts on the wealthy and corporations along with $500,000,000,000 for the military and the dollar is continuing it’s drop below sea level against every currency in the world. It may take another ‘30s depression when millions have lost their homes and jobs and families and have nothing left but to fight back for this to change.
Protest? Not as long as you can afford the cable tv bill and mesmerize yourself into stupifaction every night.
Patience, that’s all I can suggest, along with continuing your OWN way of getting out the facts to every single person you know. They may hate you for it, and get really tired of all the bad news, but hey, reality was never all it was cracked up to be anyway!
To tomkins: I just moved out of my home state (4th generation) of California in part because I see almost no difference between the pathalogical lying of Gov’nr gropinator and the bushiz. No such thing as a non-partisan re-districting, and neither side want to give an advantage to the other. Who’s going to draw the lines, by the way? Think they won’t be biased? Besides, unlike the whore state of Delay’s Texas, that is supposedly done every ten years with the census. Of course you have to remember that the special election that put him in office was bought and paid for by a radical conservative millionaire by the name of Rep. Issa of the republican party. Yeah, more of the same. 
Unfortunately Louie, more than half this stuff is true and there’s a lot of even worse behavior we won’t and never will know. Maybe our great-grandkids. Hell, I’m still waiting for the JFK investigation to be released…in 2035 or so. Maybe I’ll be in a nursing home (more like the graveyard) but it sure would be interesting to find out who really shot him, wouldn’t it?
Being a cynical pessimist means that you’re much more likely to be correct…but that doesn’t mean you have to like it much, either.
Don’t give up, anyone. On your worst day, remember that your time is temporary here and all they can do is kill you.

All I know is the Laws that have been passed since 2000 are scarry at best.The mood of our country is pretty much HATE….They are calling everyone who speaks out a terrorist.I am in the Motorcycle community and the undercover work is getting real bad.They are grouping MC’s in with street gangs now.They are also trying some in street gangs as “DOMESTIC TERRORISTS”.Does anyone else see the progression?

Kerry refused to lower himself to fight these neo-fascists. He never called Bush a liar even when Bush lied in his presence at the debates. He refused to attack Bush for 9/11. He failed to expose Bush’s incompetence or worse that allowed 9/11 to happen. Kerry never really entered the fray; he just watched as Rove’s attack dogs lied about him and lied about Bush’s repugnant record.
Sometimes you have to crouch down towards their level and confront them in the only language they understand to get their attention. But more significantly, if you sit back and allow them to tell their lies and call you names unchallenged, then the public believes the lies. See, Sleazeboat liars. The media is Bush’s propaganda machine but an immediate and focused Kerry challenge to these biased Bush proxies would have shut them up and maybe ended the media’s coddling of these Sleazeboat liars.
These liars were calling Kerry a liar and a coward on behalf of Bush. Kerry should have called out the deserter-in-chief and the VP of deferrals for their cowardly attacks on his honorable military service but Kerry did not want to “lower himself to their level.”
Do you really think it is helpful to the cause to attack me for my choice of language? Aren’t petty fights like this the real problem with the left? We agree that Bush is a repugnant thug but you think it’s inappropriate for me to call him a repug. I can’t believe I even have to lower myself to defend this. Simply calling them on their hourly lies is not working.
Kerry really won the election. So, what happened? Democrats and other Kerry voters were too nice and let them get away with it. Do you see repugs worrying about whether Rush or Hannity are using polite language? Rove is writing their fictional largely hate-filled material and the taxpayers are paying half their salaries. These scumbags are ruining our country and you’re criticizing me for calling them repugs.
I don’t remember calling all republicans repugs. In fact, I specified Bush and republican congressional leadership. I have questioned Claire’s assertion that real Republicans are against big government and I have seen no support for that quaint theory. Bush voters are sheep, not despicable liars unless you consider denying the reality of Bush’s lies the same as telling the lies. I’d say it’s more like enabling the lies. Maybe the solution is Bushanon groups for these sheep. You said anyone voting republican is a despicable liar; I didn’t say that. Your apparent belief that calling Bush a repug is the same as saying that is misguided and illogical. 
Do you really believe that one of these Bushkeviks will not be converted because I used the word repug? Excuse me, they voted for a guy who called Kerry a flip-flopper everyday for almost a year. These rocket scientists then apparently believed that Deserter Bush was a more resolute leader than the war hero who volunteered for dangerous combat duty.
Gee, what kind of rhetoric would you recommend to convert these neo-converts to the progressive point of view? Do you think facts and well-reasoned arguments alone are suddenly going to make the difference? Maybe you believe your brilliant posts are causing Bush voters everywhere to realize the error of their ways but I doubt you believe that. So, the whole premise of your complaint about name-calling is invalid. I’m under no delusion that anyone’s posts on this site are helping these knuckleheads to see the light.
Sorry, I refuse to play by your “politically correct” rules. This isn’t a college debate. The future of our country is at stake and you’re nitpicking over my word choices even though you agree with my basic premises.  I’m arguing that we need to engage and start aggressively attacking the neo-cons by calling them what they are. Your objection to this tactic is a call for a return to the wimpy opposition offered by congressional democrats in Bush’s first term. It seems to me that you are not being helpful to the cause.

Ooooo harsh, AmericanInsurgent.  I love your posts, but “It seems to me that you are not being helpful to the cause.”? ouch

a wonderfullly interesting and informative treatise….....but dwelling on the past sure wont help to dislodge these people in 2006 or 2008.

AmericanInsurgent, we have different tactics, it’s as simple as that. Just remember we’re on the same side.

Great idea Kurt.  The BBC ran an interesting series of articles prior to and shortly after the 2000 election calling attention to the fraud that occurred in Florida.  It obviously was not enough to get the American media involved, but it definitely helped spread the word about the many irregularities that took place.  If several European news outlets started questioning the systemic failings of the 2004 election, it could only help the cause.

Writing of causes, AmericanInsurgent, no offense but you missed my point.  Calling out those who lie and cheat using neutral language is not being “politically correct”. It’s simply the best way to convert those who are willing to listen.  As you say, this is not a college debate.  But words do count, as does tone.  Your words and tone may fire up the converted, however they come across as a rant to those on the fence or anywhere near the fence.  You get more flies with honey than vinegar is a truism for a reason.  I’m baffled as to why you can’t see this.  Kerry ‘lost’ primarily because he was a poor salesman who did not know his audience.  If he had, as you note, responded to the ad hominem attacks and presented a hopeful, unabashed case for the future he would have won in a landslide, stolen votes or not.  But he did not.  He was defensive and his tone was negative - much like your last post come to think of it.  A strong grass roots organization wedded to a candidate who can present a clear, positive articulation of the future as well as respond forcefully, but politely, to unfair attacks wins every time.  That’s why Clinton won, why Edwards would have won, and why Kerry lost. 

Politics is not war by other means; it’s sales.  Like it or not, that’s the deck we’re playing with.  So while we wait for the people to overthrow the inequities of Capitalism, I suggest we stop whining about what the big, bad Bush republicans are doing and start selling those near the fence the objectively better values the progressive Democrats represent.

My friends and I thought that with Diebolt in control of the electronic voting tallies in key battleground states that there would be enormous fraud by the radical right wing republican “Christian” conservatives.  We heard many months before the election that the leader of Diebolt would “Deliver the Votes to Bush in Ohio” and were skeptical.  We figured that since Bush really lost Florida in 2000, and needed the supreme court and Katherine Harris to certify his phony victory, that Jeb Bush and his cronies would find a way to make it look less obvious this time in FL.
The real losers here are the American people.  The media knows Bush lost, and refuses to talk about it.  The media even went to great lengths to try to cover it up by saying the exit polls were wrong. Why on earth would more Kerry voters participate in exit polls than Bush voters?  That is not an explanation.  Interestingly most statisticians would say that the election was riddled with statistical and mathematical improbabilities.  Our country is so “dumbed down” by the media and Bush that they dont even know that a remote possibility exists in the US for election fraud.  Kerry caved in way too early post election.  Its sad that our presidential elections are now meaningless and your vote does not count and the nightmare of Dubya and his freedumbs live on for 4 more years.  Dumb and Dumbya control America.

Claire, exactly. We have different tactics but we’re on the same side. And my point was that the left sometimes attacks their own because of essentially minor disagreements on style and tactics. The right seems to stick together much better than us. Obviously, one of the main reasons for the left’s tendency to in fight is our individualism and free thinking.
Tomkins, you are missing my point. I’m not running for office and if I were I would not call them repugs during the campaign. I’m not trying to convert the unconvertible. My goals are to vent my frustration with the current state of affairs and to fire up the converted. We need more people complaining to the MSM about their failures to report Bush’s many crimes and lies. You can work on converting those on the fence but I don’t think they’re listening to us.
On the other hand, the Sleazeboat attacks did not warrant a polite response. People needed to see Kerry act like I would have acted if a deserter questioned my honesty and patriotism—“ranting to those on the fence.” I believe Kerry’s measured response to these attacks proved to many people that he was just another politician and Kerry missed his opportunity to show the voters his human side. Kerry needed to reach back to the 1970’s when he was a courageous passionate young man willing to risk everything to publicly oppose the Vietnam War.
I voted for Kucinich in the primary because he did not mince words and he was not trying to be a politician/salesman. America is not ready for Kucinich and maybe they’re not ready for me. But we all have roles in this fight and maybe mine is different than yours.
I never liked Clinton because I thought he was really a Republican and he was a salesman. If Hillary couldn’t trust him, then why should I trust him?
So, tomkins, why don’t we agree to disagree? I’m not trying to catch flies. So I’m not going to watch my language. That’s just not my style. You may not like my style but I am on your side.
Political salesmanship is largely a matter of using language to win over voters. I used to agree that going negative was wrong but now reality has intruded on my idealistic distaste for negative politics. The voters do respond more to negative attacks. After 2 stolen elections and the weak response of the democrats to both election thefts, I’m not going to mince words: Bush and his Republican party are following the Hitler playbook of creating a fascist state. They are neo-fascists! If you don’t believe it, read Thom Hartmann’s latest article:
When Democracy Failed - 2005
The Warnings of History
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm

Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever seen this many posts here.

In general we are already bringing the fight to the Administration. By partnering with other [Conservative] entities that agree with us we can get alot farther - many more conservatives than you’d think agree with us. Pat Robertson is a great example of someone we never would have joined forces with 20 years ago but who is now also concerned with the state of our Nation.

For more examples of like-mined conservatives, please see:

http://www.d-n-i.net/

Best Regards and Good Luck to all of us.

Yep, people that support bush are voting for FASCISM, as anti-american as any wild-eyed Islamic or Christian fundamentalist. But slamming them and calling them names isn’t going to get you anywhere!!! Agreed that Kerry (or the DNC controllers) rolled over like a beaten dog. Kerry should have slammed back, should have ripped the coat off Bush in the debates and showed the transmitter on his back, a lot of should ofs. Trying to pet a rabid dog isn’t going to change anything but the condition of your hand. Kerry didn’t, and we’re screwed because of the blatant cowardice of the democratic leadership.
TEACH your neighbors better, inform them better, one on one because we can’t get access to wide-spread media to tell the truth. And realize that they are your fellow citizens. No matter how mushy their brains are or how controlled their lives are through various religions, we all live on this continent together.
We are in a battle for these people with the fascists. Not a shooting war, though it feels like it sometimes and may come to that, but for now we’re in a war of lies verses truth, and we are losing folks. Just like the progressive thinkers of 1930’s Germany, we are losing big time. Remember that 5 million progressives also died along with the 6 million jews. Want to join them? This is a fight we can’t afford to lose.
I’d much rather live in a free country than a religious state like Iran (not much difference between Islam and Christianity) but these people equate freedom with religion. Never has those two words been similar, but you are NOT going to open anyone’s eyes by screaming at them.
Have you ever met anyone who likes to admit they’ve been swindled? The victim will swear up and down what a nice guy the cheater was, how upstanding and moral, and that it wasn’t really their fault that the scheme went sour. Sound familiar? 
Would all of you please go to this article, very accurate and worth sending to everyone you know, hard copy it and start posting it in laundrymats, drop them in doctor’s offices, everywhere you can think of. And for those that have access to overseas websites, post this there please!!!! Especially in German sites, since they will understand right into their guy what is being said.
The scariest thing is that there are more of us than them in this country. Take who voted against bush, count in millions of dis-enfranchised votes and switched votes and you come up with millions of more people who want change. Why do we think we’re a minority? Because your tv says so….

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm

AmericanInsurgent, I worked on Kucinich’s campaign. :)

Oh, yeah sour grapes. Like the republicans who are suing Washington (the state) about the narrow victory of the democrat candidate. Even though it was recounted three times. The reds (republicans) say that felons voted for the dem but will not release those felon’s names.
You know what else comes from grapes? WINE!

Fair enough American Insurgent, afterall, we seem to represent two sides of the same coin.  And I’ll be the first to agree that firing up the converted is no small thing.  But let me be crystal clear about one thing, as necessary as it is to remember the failings and sins of the past, it’s just as important (if not more so) to prepare and act for the future.  The margins, stolen votes or no, are very small.  Those on the fence need to hear the differences between what we and the Bush followers represent.  They need not just to hear it, but be convinced that our way is better, for them personally and for the country as a whole (nevermind the world).  And ranting won’t cut it.  Plus, as someone mentioned several pages back, there were some 100,000,000 eligible voters who chose not to vote during the last election.  As sad as that is, it does mean there are a hundred million potential converts out there and our platform is far more inclusive and beneficial to them than Bush’s.  Something to think about…

Historyreader, the Governator is hardly my first choice either, but redrawing voting districts does seem to make sense.  If a bipartisan group was in charge, say six statisticians made up of two democrats, two republicans and two independents, we would at least avoid the problem of each Party becoming completely entrenched in the districts they already have.  Worse, under the existing system the primaries become the real election with each “winner” being forced to move more to the right (republican) or left (democrat) than their primary opponents - partisan politics at its most extreme.  That’s not good for anyone.  I agree that finding a nonpartisan commision would not be easy, but how could it be anything but better than the completely shameless gerrymandering Delay did in Texas?

I was hoping that the focus of this forum would center exclusively on the election fraud.  This topic is important enough to discuss in its own forum without clouding it with other issues such as converting those on the fence, redistricting, etc.  Let’s stay on topic.  The fraud that took place needs to be exposed and dealt with.  I do not think we need to concern ourselves with other political issues.  Election fraud hurts all Americans, Rep or Dem and I believe that if fraud is proven and exposed, the entire country will take action against the perpetrators.  This is about getting the statistical analysis to the front pages, and exposing and proving that massive coordinated electronic election fraud took place.

You’re right.  It’s easy to wander off on tangents (apparently ;), but the topic of election fraud is what this forum is about.  My bad for meandering…

What I’d like to know is how you verify that there was actuall fraud when so many states used machines that did not leave a paper trail to follow up?  I think old George or his cohorts “because I don’t think he’s bright enough”, rigged things in such a manner we will never be able to find out what we want to know.

Election fraud is just the tip of the criminal iceberg for this administration. So why aren’t we angrier about this illegitimate regime? At least it seems to me that the rest of you are not angry enough.
Wasn’t anger and ranting at the discrepancy between the exit polls and the “official vote counts” in Ukraine the catalyst for a new election? Where was our anger? Why didn’t we rant?
Because our candidate didn’t want to rock the boat and call a spade a spade, or, to be more accurate, call George W. Bush a serial election thief. Obviously, the best way to expose the election fraud would have been to challenge the results on November 3, 2005. We all knew that Bush would cheat as he has done his entire life. Kerry promised us that he was prepared to fight the inevitable fraud, if necessary, but then he broke that promise on November 3rd before we had a chance to even accuse the fraudulent president with his latest crime. We never recovered from that premature surrender. I can’t help but suspect that Kerry was in on it.
The wide discrepancy between the exit polls and the vote counts was the only justification Kerry needed to challenge this abortion of an election. Even Bush knew he lost this election. Only Karl Rove was convinced the exit polls would be wrong again because his vote counters were in place. He knew Uncle Ken Blackwell would deliver Ohio. Exit polls don’t matter when you own the media and you control the vote counting. And, even if someone tries to challenge your theft in court you own the courts too.
This is no time to calmly and politely emphasize the failings of the Bush administration. It’s time to wake up and get mad as hell!
These hypocrites have placed a gay hooker posing as a reporter with a fake name and several gay porn/escort sites. This reporter/boyfriend got to ask the president a softball question at a press conference. Someone in the White House gave their boyfriend Jimmy Jeff a classified CIA memo and told him the Iraq war was starting 4 hours before the president announced it.
Jimmy Jeff also helped run the sleazy campaign against Daschle. Jimmy Jeff wasn’t getting a pass to the White House on a daily basis and invitations to exclusive parties because of his highly honed reporter skills.

I read the actual critique, and I am bowled over by the three outliers (out of only fifty states) that are more than four SDs from the expected variance that would occur by chance. And the seven states that landed on almost three SDs.

The statistics speak for themselves, and in this case, I trust the statistics. The odds that this would happen randomly are impossibly remote.

The big question is, what about 2008? If this was so doable in 2004, what happens in 2008?

Those who could do this are much more than just Bush the candidate.

Exactly Grafreen.Its not a rep or dem thing anymore.What it is,is we are not voting our president in anymore,he/she will be appointed by the powers that be now.Kerry clearly(a bonesman)didnt pic up on issues he could have.

Untill there is OUTRAGE and protests on the streets,It dont matter.As long as 1 or 2 Giants own all the media outlets,IT DONT MATTER.

http://www.fairnessdoctrine.com/

ps. I followed that link, http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm ,
When Democracy Failed - 2005
The Warnings of History
by Thom Hartmann

Really well-put article, scary similarities to how our present admin. operates—the definition of fascism.

psps Agreed that this thread should “focus” on the evidence of election fraud, but the movement behind the fraud is equally worthy of media awareness.

The media is an important participant in this fraud.  First, by consolidating all exit-polling activities into one effort, they made manipulation and withholding of data easier to manage.  Then by quickly dismissing the skewed results as evidence that exit-polls are not reliable, they quickly got the masses to move along to the next subject before very many people realized what had happened.  I can’t believe how easy it is to fool an entire nation!

So if this is going to be exposed, I don’t think the media (at least not the US media) is the answer.

Here is an idea (probably a stupid idea).

Make orange bumper stickers that say “3 STD?! ELECTCION FRAUD 2004” with two overlapping shapes.  One shape is a blue bell shaped histogram that represents the exit polls.  The other is a red bell curve shifted to the right that represents the screwy vote counts.  (Look at the link just after the article to see what they would look like).
The text “3 STD?!” can be substituted with “5.5% Shift?!” and “5 States Flipped?!”( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address s=203x318693 )

There could be many versions of the sticker.  Each differing only in the first text just before the “?!”.  Each version telling of a symptom of fraud.  Hopefully we can figure out a way to “sound-bite” enough of the symptoms so they can be written with few characters”

Maybe we have batches of these stickers made and fliers that have information and links to web pages.  We each get 100 stickers and fliers.  We separate them into batches of 10.  We put one sticker on our car.  Every time someone asks us about it we “inform them” and give them a pack of 10 stickers and fliers with the hope that they will read up on the subject, be convinced that this election stinks and they in turn spread sticker bundles.  The flier would have to include ordering information.

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2005/2/24/183243/756
BREAKING: Kerry/Edwards File More Ohio Election Motions
By WilliamPitt,

Thu Feb 24th, 2005 at 06:32:43 PM EST :: Voter Rights ::

Kerry-Edwards 2004 has just made two filings in the Ohio recount case currently pending before Federal Judge Edmund Sargus in Columbus, Ohio.

Kerry-Edwards 2004 has been relatively quiet in this case for the past several weeks and its filings today indicate its continued interest and involvement in this litigation.

In December 2004, presidential candidates David Cobb and Michael Badnarik filed extensive documentation with the court demonstrating that the recount they had requested in Ohio of the 2004 presidential vote had been conducted with inconsistent standards throughout the state, in violation of the equal protection and due process guarantees under the US Constitution (see Bush v. Gore).

Cobb and Badnarik filed amended counterclaims seeking a new recount to be conducted with uniform standards, in accordance with the US Constitution. (As an example, 97% of the ballots have yet to be counted by hand in Ohio and, more than often, the 3% of the vote that each county counted by hand was not randomly selected, as required by Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell’s own guidelines) To access the amended counterclaims, see this document (Adobe required).

In addition, in December, Cobb and Badnarik filed a motion to preserve all ballots and machinery connected to the 2004 presidential election and to take limited expedited discovery to investigate the Triad voting machine company’s tampering with the recount. To access the memorandum in support of this motion, see this document (Adobe required).

The amended counterclaims and these motions are pending before Judge Sargus.

On February 11, 2005, Cobb and Badnarik filed a motion for a hearing before Judge Sargus on these pending matters.

On February 14, Judge Sargus issued an order granting the motion to dismiss the Delaware County Board of Elections’ complaint (which had sought to prevent the recount in that county) and asking for briefing in 15 days on the question of whether the case should be transferred to Judge Carr in Toledo (for the Northern District of Ohio) where a prior case seeking to expedite the recount had been filed in November 2004.

Yesterday, Cobb and Badnarik filed a statement on the transfer question.

Today, Kerry-Edwards filed a document in support of that statement. Most significant, Kerry-Edwards also filed today a separate document in support of the motion for hearing with two critical attachments: 1) a declaration from Kerry-Edwards attorney Don McTigue regarding a survey he conducted of Kerry-Edwards county recount coordinators; 2) a summary chart of the results of that survey (which highlight the inconsistent standards applied during the recount).

The five documents filed by Kerry/Edwards are here, here, here, here, and here. Adobe is required for all of them.

Margaret, You wrote: “One thing that is scary to me is that when the backlash occurs (and it will eventually), people like me will be ostracized and ridiculed for their beliefs.”

The reason many of us believe almost all evangelical, fundamentalist, pentacostal Christians support Bush is because very few of them publically challenged the evils which are done in the name of Jesus Christ by those in the government and the Robertsons and Dobsons and Falwells.

I hardly believed it when the media and religious commentators focused almost exclusively on the areas of abortion, stem cell research and gay rights and kept emphasizing the morality of Bush, et al, as they slaughtered literally thousands of innocent civilian men, women and children on a self proclaimed mission from God.  As they subverted our democracy, denigrated the poor and took away their livlihood.

Where were the Christian protesters, the Isaahs, as Christianity was highjacked by this band of looters?

And even today I see very few articles by fellow christians challenging Bush’s morality.

They are here for one:
http://www.sojo.net/

Margaret, some amplification.

I am also very disturbed that the main line churches did not widely condemn the anti-Christian “morality” and the apparent blasphemy of the self-proclaimed “born again, end-times” Bush crowd.  Nor is there much sign of individual Christians standing up against their church leaders and demanding they follow the examples of Christ.

The reasons I focused on the evangelicals are that Bush and his cronies claim to be part of that sector of Christianity and they claim to speak for the sector and for the Christ as interpreted by that sector.  Without encountering much opposition they have highjacked the sector and, to a lesser extent, a significant proportion of US Christianity to support their sinful behavior and crimes.

Of course, many “Christian” organizations and individuals have supported despots and oppression throughout history.  As I read the Bible, these are the things Christ most opposed. Revolutionaries have recognized that most religions oppose reforms and have given up on getting very much help from religion in gaining social and economic justice.

Thanks, Claire, for the reference.  (And for all your other references and clarity.  You are a marvel.  I am so glad you are in this discussion)!

Yes, there are Christians who speak out, just as there are political dissenters.  I suppose they are as marginalized and unheard as the political protesters are.  But few of the individual Christians or churches I know of or have contact with have challenged the Bush agenda on moral grounds, either publicly or within their institutions.  And until the 2004 election, I saw very little in the media.  After the exit polls were interpreted as indicating folks voted for Bush on moral grounds, there are more articles, but they are still scarce.  I dare say there was more ink spent on one week of Clinton’s follies than on all the Christian protests of the Bush morality.

Jerry,

I understand your frustration, as I share it.  Jackson Browne did a great song that too few people know of called, “The Rebel Jesus”.  It is not at all anti-Christian, but it does point out the fact that Jesus Christ was the most effective revolutionary in history. You notice he never allied himself with any of the reigning parties of the day—Sadducees, Pharisees, Romans.  Politics always corrupt religion.  I would be interested to know if there are any examples of religion bringing politics to the straight and narrow without including a Crusade or an Inquisition along with it.  I think our founding fathers were brilliant in requiring that church and state be separate.

Americans have been long known as a historically and geographically knowledge-challenged people.  The current political scenario is just further proof that willful ignorance prevails when one feels threatened by reality.

One last thing, my family and I left our Calvary Chapel church after two decades of attendance because of this election and the mindset of the Republican majority in it.  We have found Jesus Christ very alive and well in other denominations.  We made the reason for our move known to those at both churches, for which we are now not particularly popular.  But we are not there to please “man”, but God.

Thanks Jerry!

Just saw this list on DU - election reform bills:

Wilms (1000+ posts)    Fri Feb-25-05 10:26 PM
Original message
List and Links for (23) Pending Election Reform Bills

Each of the pending bills are listed, with a link to a http://www.govtrack.us / page.
There you can click TEXT or pdf versions of each of the bills. Next to “Cosponsors” click on ‘show’ to see the list.
Other functions on the page, such as “Bill Tracking” I haven’t yet explored.

2005 Election Reform Legislation

HAVA Amendments (10)

Reference:
FEC HAVA 2002 Page:
http://www.fec.gov/hava/hava.htm

S. 330: John Ensign (R-NV) A bill to amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require a voter-verified permanent record or hardcopy under title III of such Act, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-330
Companion Bill: H.R. 704: James Gibbons (R-NV)

H.R. 704: James Gibbons (R-NV) To amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require a voter-verified permanent record or hardcopy under title III of such Act, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-704
Companion Bill: S. 330: John Ensign (R-NV)

S. 17: Christopher Dodd (D-CT) A bill to amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to protect voting rights and to improve the administration of Federal elections, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-17
Companion Bill: H.R. 533: John Conyers (D-MI)

H.R. 533: John Conyers (D-MI) To amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to protect voting rights and to improve the administration of Federal elections, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-533
Companion Bill: S. 17: Christopher Dodd (D-CT)

S. 450: Hillary Clinton (D-NY) A bill to amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require a voter-verified paper record, to improve provisional balloting, to impose additional requirements under such Act, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-450
Companion Bill: H.R. 939: Stephanie Jones (D-OH)

H.R. 939: Stephanie Jones (D-OH) To amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require a voter-verified paper record, to improve provisional balloting, to impose additional requirements under such Act, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-939
Companion Bill: S. 450: Hillary Clinton (D-NY)

S. 414: Mitch McConnell (R-KY) A bill to amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to protect the right of Americans to vote through the prevention of voter fraud, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-414

H.R. 550: Rush Holt (D-NJ) To amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require a voter-verified permanent paper record or hard copy under title III of such Act, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-550

H.R. 470: John Larson (D-CT) To amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require the software used in the operation of an electronic voting machine to meet certain requirements as a condition of the use of the machine in elections for Federal office, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-470

H.R. 278: Steve King (R-IA) To amend the Help America Vote Act of 2002 to require voting systems to produce a verifiable paper record of each vote cast and to ensure the security of electronic data, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-278

No Harris Blackwell (2)

S. 391: Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) A bill to amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to prohibit certain State election administration officials from actively participating in electoral campaigns.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-391

H.R. 834: Ted Strickland (D-OH) To amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to prohibit certain State election administration officials from actively participating in electoral campaigns.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-834

Voter Enfranchisement (colonies, ex-offenders, and registration) (7)

S. 195: Joseph Lieberman (D-CT) A bill to provide for full voting representation in Congress for the citizens of the District of Columbia, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-195
Companion Bill: H.R. 398: Eleanor Norton (D-DC)

H.R. 398: Eleanor Norton (D-DC) To provide for full voting representation in Congress for the citizens of the District of Columbia, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-398
Companion Bill: S. 195: Joseph Lieberman (D-CT)

H.R. 190: Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) To restore the Federal electoral rights of the residents of the District of Columbia, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-190

(cont)
H.J. Res. 1: Donna Christensen (D-VI) Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States regarding presidential election voting rights for residents of all United States territories and commonwealths.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hj109-1

H.R. 663: Charles Rangel (D-NY) To secure the Federal voting rights of certain qualified ex-offenders who have served their sentences.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-663

H.R. 496: Martin Sabo (D-MN) To amend the National Voter Registration Act of 1993 to require States to permit individuals to register to vote in an election for Federal office on the date of the election.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-496

H.C. Res. 73: James McCrery (R-LA) Supporting the goals and ideals of National High School Seniors Voter Registration Day.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hc109-73

Election Day/Weekend (2)

S. 144: Herbert Kohl (D-WI) A bill to change the date for regularly scheduled Federal elections and establish polling place hours.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-144

H.R. 63: John Conyers (D-MI) To treat the Tuesday next after the first Monday in November in the same manner as any legal public holiday for purposes of Federal employment, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-63

Quit Electoral College (2)

H.J. Res. 8: Raymond Green (D-TX) Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to abolish the electoral college and to provide for the direct popular election of the President and Vice President of the United States.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hj109-8

H.J. RES.17: Eliot Engel (D-NY) Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to provide for the direct election of the President and Vice President by the popular vote of the citizens of the United States.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hj109-17

Candidate Enfranchisement/Special Elections (4)

H.J. Res. 2: John Conyers (D-MI) Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to permit persons who are not natural-born citizens of the United States, but who have been citizens of the United States for at least 20 years, to be eligible to hold the Office of President.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hj109-2

H.J. Res. 9: Jose Serrano (D-NY) Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to repeal the twenty-second article of amendment, thereby removing the limitation on the number of terms an individual may serve as President.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hj109-9

H.J. Res. 15: Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to make eligible for the Office of President a person who is not a natural born citizen of the United States but has been a United States citizen for at least 20 years.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hj109-15

H.R. 841: James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) Special Elections/Appointments Provisions bill. To require States to hold special elections to fill vacancies in the House of Representatives not later than 45 days after the vacancy is announced by the Speaker of the House of Representatives in extraordinary circumstances, and for other purposes.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-841

(Upcoming) Dates for Specific Requirements of the Help America Vote Act
http://www.fec.gov/hava/timeline.htm

March 31, 2005
State NVRA Reports for 2003-2004 due to EAC.

June 1, 2005
EAC submits report to President and Congress on voters who register by mail. (Section 244).

June 1, 2005
EAC (in conjunction with SSA) reports to Congress on the feasibility and advisability of using SSN or other such information to establish registration or other election eligibility and ID requirements. (Section 244).

June 30, 2005
2003-2004 NVRA report submitted to Congress.

January 1, 2006
Each State and jurisdiction required to comply with the voting systems requirements in Section 301.

January 1, 2006
Deadline for States to implement computerized Statewide voter registration database if qualified for waiver.

First election for Federal office after January 1, 2006
All punchcard and lever machines replaced in States accepting Section 102 payments who qualified for a waiver of the original deadline.

January 1, 2007
Voting systems purchased with Title II requirements payments must meet disability access standards in section 201.

BUSH WON. KERRY LOST. That is the truth. That is the fact. This election was not stolen. Wake up and smell the bong water, people. If the Democrats don’t jettison the crackpot-crybaby-sore-loser wing of their party immediately, they’re in for a world of hurt. They will lose even more seats in the House and the Senate. And remember Ken Blackwell, whom Maxine Waters practically called an Uncle Tom? He will be elected governor of Ohio in 2006. Don’t say you weren’t warned.

Scott, we’ll only continue to lose if the SYSTEM ISN’T FIXED.

Scott,

Read Christopher Hitchens’ (very conservative Republican) article in this month’s “Vanity Fair”.  Even he sees that the numbers simply do not add up.  What you fail to understand is that next time, it could be your candidate who is cheated.  For the sake of all Americans, we must make sure the system is fair and true.  This is not a matter of “sour grapes”, it is the desire of all patriotic Americans to have the elections be honest.  If you can’t understand that, then you are one of the most unpatriotic crowd that really is hedging on fascism more than democracy.  Look “fascism” up…we’ve already started down that road.

p.s.

If one more Republican says “sour grapes” or “get over it”, I will be permanently persuaded that they are completely devoid of critical thinking skills and logic.  A parrot could be more observant, creative and realistic.

Speaking of fascism…

http://www.bushflash.com/14.html

Brava, Claire!  That film clip is absolutely the political “money shot”.

Comment for Scott: crackpot/crybaby/sore loser wing,eh? Well, you really ought to get in touch with the crackpot/crybaby/sore loser wing of the republican party here in Washington State. They are just whining something awful up here after the recounts that were certified by the REPUBLICAN sec of state (bet his career is dead) that put in the Democratic Governor. They are filing frivilous lawsuits, threatening to make the state take money away from schools and other useless to corporation profits social programs to defend against their lawsuits, and just can’t seem to get over it. The caterwailing going on is terrible! Can you help by calling them and telling the leaders the same thing you said in your comment to democrats? Thanks!
And really, everybody, we ought to just accept that bush stole two presidential elections and forget it. Just like the “good” Germans of the 1930’s did. Well…you know how that turned out, right, Scott? Oh, I forgot, this is “America” and it can’t happen here. Duh. How silly of me.
And your comment that Blackwell will be the next governor? I most certainly agree! He’ll be the head of the “Blackwell for Governor” campaign and even get to count the votes! In secret. With locked doors and guards around to arrest anyone as some kind of terrorist who is trying to watch them. And of course the republican computer voting companies will send techs around to “check” on the machines before the recount happens so everything will be just fine and turn out the way he wants it. How democratic, Scott. Sure you weren’t raised in the Soviet Union? It sure doesn’t sound like you have had much education about what a democracy is like.
But keep trying, you may get it yet. We all have hopes for you.

Ah, I see the references to Nazis and the “Bush is Hitler” crowd is still going strong. That reminds me of the ‘90’s when various right-wing lunatics were screaming that Bill Clinton was the Antichrist. Remember how you guys were rolling your eyes in disgust when that happened? Well, that eye-rolling has returned in spades. Oh, one other thing: “Editor & Publisher” reported way back in December that all reputable news outlets in Ohio checked out these various accusations and found them utterly groundless. The operative word here is “reputable”. By definition, that leaves out sites like Indymedia, Counterpunch, Free Press, Jeff Rense’s crackpot website, etc. Tell me that the Internet has numerous websites “proving” that the election was stolen, and I will tell you the Internet is also full of theories about Jews running the planet. Internet buzz doesn’t prove squat.

Ignorance is bliss…

Yep, “reputable” as in all owned by the same five (count them, 5) corporations that own 95% of all newspapers-daily-weekly-biweekly, radio stations, television stations, magazines, cable stations, and publishing houses in this country. If you did your homework, you’d find financial ties from all those “reputable” outlets in Ohio spider-webbing right back to the same few bush campaign supporting conservation corporations that I’m sure are just itching to report on anything being amiss with “their guy” who’s contiuing his fire-sale givaway of our airways, tax dollars, tax cuts, and more power than they ever thought they could achieve in molding the discourse in this country.
And hitler’s dead, by the way. Shot himself in the head in ‘45. But you might want to check out a very good movie called: “Blind Spot, Hitler’s Secretary” on Columbia Tristar Home Entertainment. It’s of the woman who was his personal sec until she took his will in the bunker. Subtitled but it might help you think farther than the excellent propaganda passing for news these days. She had many years to think about how the ideology took over her democratic country before she spoke on film as a very old woman full of guilt.
And Clinton? A republican in all deeds if not in name. Well, at least as conservative as the average one used to be. He signed Bush 1’s Nafta/Gatt. What more damning evidence is needed? It was so funny to hear the “antichrist” hollering against the guy, about as funny as hearing bush say that god “talks to him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.” End result is to kill innocent men, women, and children. At least that’s what it comes down to, and what kind of god is that? What kind of man is that?
Fascism: corporate control of the state, combined with rabid patriotism and usually with powerful religious leaders smiling benediction. This doesn’t alarm you? Or are you the trust ‘em kind of guy?
Doesn’t have anything to do with little Adolph, but a lot to do with Dick Cheney when he was drawing plans up in the late ‘90’s. If you read them, and have read the Constitution of this country, you might have noticed a slight 180 degree turn from the orginal document to Dick’s blueprint of the new America.
Controlling the press, controlling the counting of the votes, that’s real power as well they know. As you said about “gov” Blackwell, I expect there to be a total one party federal and close to in the state, government if the rotten melon doesn’t split open in the next two years with a serious insider (ala Deep Throat of the republican Nixon administration) coming out of the basement.
Read some of Thomas Jefferson’s writings. Please! As I saw with my kids, public schools are a joke when it comes to teaching any kind of accurate history. They never read any of the Constitution, couldn’t name more than two of the Bill of Rights amendments (they cheated because it’s on the wall), and had never read anything written by our founding fathers. I assume you haven’t, either. Please go to the library and don’t worry about the FBI checking up on what you check out. Just wave that Party card at them.

As Americans, we can only find common ground with fellow Americans of all parties to repair our broken election systems by discussing and working for fair, accurate elections. Making nasty coments about Bush, etal discourages communication. I believe the Democratic Party and supporters are mistaken now that we know for certain the extent of the massive vote shift that had to have been done primarily by computer hacking to continue acting as though there were a fair vote count. The old saw, “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it,“applies. If voters don’t understand that it is broke and must be fixed there will be indequate pressure to make things right. Keeping power requires that the great majority of people believe that there was a fair vote. Even Joseph Stalin knew that. Ergo, we must disabuse people of that mistaken idea.

DEMOCRACY, DON’T GET OVER IT!

Please don’t forget The Green Party Recount site, they are continuing with the attempts to get a fair recount in Ohio and their attorneys have been able to present more evidence because of the malicious lawsuit by the corrupt Ohio Attorney General Jim Petro. 

The Green Party helped to document the fraud and the coverup and other shenanigans in the election and the attempted recount and the destruction of voting materials that are supposed to be held for 22 months after an election and New Mexico has already started destroying voting evidence such as polling tapes and logs with different signatures for everyone who voted because they were next in the Green Party’s recount.

Iowa stopped counting votes on “Election” night because “their workers were tired.” why didn’t they have a backup crew on this most important night every 4 years and why did it take Iowa THREE DAYS to manipulate the voting results to come up with a supposed 10,000 vote win for bush.

Please read the extensive information on the coverup and illegal activities by Secretary of State Ken Blackwell both before and during the election and afterwards in destroying information after losing battle in court to avoid having a recount/audit.  We may find out what he had to hide if enough people care enough to look at the further evidence of a stolen election in the recount/audit in Ohio which was stopped illegally.

Rep. Conyers and the Green Party are still fighting against the destruction of any more voter information and to have an honest recount/audit in Ohio. 

Rep. Conyers Congress website is a very good source of information including the Mitofsky refusal to release information on the exit polls because it belonged to the Neocon media who also refused to release the raw data requested by the House Judiciary Committe.  Rep. Conyers has a 102 page report on the voter fraud in Ohio and letters in his attempt to get at the truth.

Rep. Conyers along with Sen. Boxer have petitions to pass Bills to ensure the integrity of the vote and Rep. Conyers has a separate site from his Congressional one where he has petitions and other important news.  I think the address is http://johnconyers.com/index.asp?Type=SUPERFORMS&SEC;={D806E54D-86E7-42DF-B BA64-771A221369F1}  Wants opinions on Voter Reform

http://www.johnconyers.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC;={B166974A-C132-4E EC3-9682-FE6E08C1A584}
Rep. Conyers Blog to get out information truth

Please help the courageous Sen. Boxer and Rep. Conyers and the Greens lawyers who risked everything to reveal how the Bush Regime stole two elections in a row.  If we do nothing while others take the risk how can we expect others to do any more.  There are steps we can take and the seizing of American financial and military power by this very evil group must be fought.

JOIN THE REAL BOXER REBELLION AT:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoxerRebellion/message/34

We need everyone to hit all their personal favorite websites andblogs to recruit fellow Boxer supporters to this group and the groupblog. Talk about all the good work Sen Boxer is doing right now, andleave the links to both the group and the blog.

Sen. Boxer is carrying the majority of the burden of putting up resistance to Dubya and the neo-con. Point that fact out, and rally support for Sen. Boxer.

SHOW YOUR GRATITUTE FOR HER STANDING ALONE DURING THE NO CERTIFICATION FOR BUSH VOTER FRAUD and for Sen. Boxer’s grilling of Condi’s lies which is also printed on this site.  Scroll down to see how Boxer really exposes Condi’s lies and her blasé attitude to the US soldiers and Iraqis that were murdered because of Bush Regimes WMD lies which they are now trying to brush aside as “frivolous”.

IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT
IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT
IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT
IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT
IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT
IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT
IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT
IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT IMPEACHMENT

Great links!  Claire, good work on the voter reform links.  Good to know that some politicians are looking for a fair voting sytem.  I was even surprised to see a move to abolish the electoral college:
http://www.therestofus.org/electoral_college/abolish_electoral_college.htm

“This petition seeks widespread support for the Conyers/Dodd omnibus election reform legislation.” :
http://johnconyers.com/index.asp?Type=SUPERFORMS&SEC;={CAAC2381-7698-403F-9 97BA-9257E7DE8484}

It’d be nice to have more petitions going around.

Look at the Christian Science Monitor for today and there’s a great article about the bill that Boxer, Clinton and Tubbs are putting forth to rectify the broken election system.  While it will certainly meet extreme opposition from the Republicans, we all have to make enough noise to make it very difficult for the conservatives to vote this one down.  This has nothing to do with party affiliation and everything to do with fairness.

Things can get better with effort—look, Scott isn’t on the site anymore after his ramblings were made to look as brainless as they were in reality through group efforts!  Isn’t it sad how all the neocons are so stinking deluded?

Link to must-read Hitchens article mentioned above:

http://www.vanityfair.com/commentary/content/printables/050214roco05?print=tr rue

What is the difference between Vietnam and Iraq?

Bush knew how to get out of Vietnam…

http://www.independentmediasource.com/voteintegrity2_14.htm

This link helps you get emails ou to the media. Here is their sample letter that you can send:

The story of 2004 Election Fraud is fundamental to American democracy, and includes the “privatization” of our election syste (Bush supporters owning the secret, proprietary source code that runs the electronic vote tabulation machines all over the country—a condition made to order for fraud), overwhelming evidence of election fraud through control of electronic voting, severe vote suppression by Republican election officials against minority voters in Ohio and Florida, in plain violation of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and an on-going cover-up.

Currently, at least four very important stories are developing regarding 2004 Presidential election irregularities and election fraud. How you handle these and future stories is critically important for the American people and for your organization. Many Americans have lost faith in the U.S. mainstream news media, due to your failure to adequately cover the Bush administration’s false justifications for the Iraq War, and many other important stories. You are strongly suspected of covering up Bush administration lies, corruption and deception.

The 2004 Election Fraud story is too big to “keep a lid on it.” If you do not give it the coverage it deserves, you will not only lose out as a news organizations, in competition with other news sources, including new alternative news sources on the Internet, but you will also be failing in your responsibilities as journalists and as Americans.

Here are the current stories:

1 - 12/15 NYTimes: Lawmaker Seeks Inquiry Into Ohio Vote - asks the Federal Bureau of Investigation and a county prosecutor in Ohio today to explore “inappropriate and likely illegal election tampering”.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/15/politics/15ohio.html?adxnnl=1&oref=login&a amp;adxnnlx=1103129347-Sb0Nn2xF7zbMB5Qax04QDA

- Proof of Ohio Election Fraud Exposed (TRIAD: Affidavit, Conyers letter, everything HERE)
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/121604Z.shtml

The most damming evidence (in the Affidavit linked above):
“He advised Lisa and I on how to post a “cheat sheet” on the wall so that only the board members and staff would know about it and what the codes meant so the count would come out perfect and we wouldn’t have to do a full hand recount of the county. He left about 5:00 PM.”

2 - Representative John Conyers held a second forum on the Ohio election questions Monday, December 13th, in Columbus, Ohio concerning new evidence of election irregularities and fraud in Ohio. The many participants include other Congressional Representatives, Rev. Jesse Jackson, and key lawyers and witnesses in on-going election lawsuits.
- 12/13 Conyers/Ohio hearing video file:
http://www.fugw.org/ohio

Transcripts:
http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/voteforum2.html
 
(more links below)
(cont. next post)

3 - COLUMBUS, Ohio—Democrat John Kerry has formally requested that county elections officials allow his witnesses to visually inspect the 92,000 ballots cast in Ohio in which no vote for president was recorded. The request is one of 11 items that Kerry is asking for as part of the recount that Ohio’s 88 county boards of election will begin this week, according to a letter sent to the election boards over the weekend.
http://www.onnnews.com/Global/story.asp?S=2682767

- The investigation involves enough votes “to possibly change the outcome,” according to an interview of lawsuit participants, with Laura Flanders on Air America on Sunday. (The interview should be available online on Monday, December 13th.)
http://www.airamericaradio.com/shows/lauraflanders

- Entire text of letter:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/13/16140/513

4 Legal actions:
– Alliance for Democracy Co-Chair Cliff Arnebeck filed a “Contest of Election” Lawsuit in Ohio Supreme Court early on Monday December 13th. Rep. Conyers sent a letter requesting injunctive relief of the Ohio electors - i.e., that they either step aside or vote provisionally pending the outcome of the case.
http://www.thealliancefordemocracy.org/

- Rep. Conyers et al.: Urgent request to Ohio Governor (et al.) to delay, or treat as provisional, choosing electors until recount is complete.
http://my.core.com/~dlrslr/ElectionResults2004/LetterFromCongress.pdf

- Challenge asks Ohio’s top court to review vote: “The challengers who went to the Supreme Court question whether Bush won the key swing state by 119,000 votes, guaranteeing his victory over Democrat John Kerry.”... “The challengers allege unlawful ballots were added to the total and legally cast ballots were altered. Without listing specific evidence, the complaint alleges 130,656 votes for Kerry and John Edwards in 36 counties were somehow switched to count for the Bush-Cheney ticket.”
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002118804_ohio14.html
Petition: http://joeorgren.com/MossvBush1.pdf

Injunction: http://joeorgren.com/MossvBush2.pdf

- Kerry-Edwards 2004, Greens, and Libertarians have added election tampering to a civil suit filed against the state of Ohio over problems with the state’s recount.
http://rawstory.com/exclusives/kerry_ohio_suit_1215.php

Will you be among the media that gives these stories the coverage they deserve?

More links:

- Startling new revelations highlight rare Congressional hearings on Ohio vote
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/985

- 12/8 watch the Conyers Forum online (search “ALL RECENT PROGRAMS >>”, then click on “House Forum on Ohio Election Voting Procedures”:
http://www.c-span.org/ 

Or paste the direct link below into the Address window of your Internet browser:
rtsp://cspanrm.fplive.net/cspan/project/c04/c04120804_conyers.rm

- Judiciary Democratic Forum - Preserving Democracy - What Went Wrong in Ohio - December 8, 2004
http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/voteforum.html

- From Selma to Ohio: A Report from the Conyers Hearing
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/120904W.shtml

- Rep. Conyers et al.: 34 Election-Related Questions for Kenneth Blackwell (Ohio Secretary of State) Submitted 12-2, still no response.
http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohblackwellltr12204.pdf

- Conyers Follow-up Letter:
http://www.pdamerica.org/downloads/2004VotingIssues/ohblackwellrespfollowup12140 04.pdf
- Blackwell responds to Conyers and the GAO Letter!
http://www.pdamerica.org/downloads/2004VotingIssues/ohblackwellresp121404.pdf

- Link to over 100 under-reported election irregularities/potential fraud stories (11-2 to present):
http://www.independentmediasource.com/election_art_1128_1204.htm

from:
http://www.independentmediasource.com/voteintegrity2_14.htm

Some of you more open-minded types might want to examine this issue in a larger context, but don’t just walk in wide-eyed and overly accepting, please retain a great deal of skepticism - for now.  I want to tell you about a fellow claiming to be a time traveler (yeah I know, sure sure, but pay attention just a little bit more) named John Titor who said in late 2000 EVEN BEFORE 9/11 that America would be turning into a police state (some would now agree), that the next war we’d have would be based on lies (that prediction we now know is indisputably correct), and that civil war in America would have it’s origins ‘around the time of the election’ in 2004, then grow exponentially until we see full-scale armed conflict that by 2008 nobody doubts anymore is a civil war and by 2012 it involves everyone in this country in some way.  According to Titor, many people flee police oppression which is concentrated in the cities, but the cops follow them out to the countryside and there eventually begins a series of armed conflicts resembling the Waco and Ruby Ridge government massacres of American citizens.  The civil war Titor describes ends in 2015 with global nuclear war brought on by international instability due to America falling apart internally, but has the favorable side benefit of leaving most of the ‘rurals’ alive and most of the ‘cities’ dead, so that the police state is defeated by default and a new America slowly arises from the nuclear ashes of the old. 

What makes this story most compelling is that Mr. Titor provided photos and diagrams of his time travel device, and explained how it works, and it makes sense!  There are many scientists and even physicists who believe it possible, this is not a story of the average nutbag making wild unsubstantiated claims, this guy has evidence.  Even if he is a fraud, he’s a pretty damn smart fraud to come up with a workable design for a time machine.  So before any of you nasty right-winger Fascists who might be reading this offer up any of your ignorant vulgar white trash comments without even looking at the evidence, I say to you that your WORDS cannot overcome TRUTH, and the TRUTH will someday be known about both the 2004 election and about John Titor, purported time traveler.  So far, your criminal hero George Bush Junior is proving Mr. Titor right.  See the evidence at http://johntitor.strategicbrains.com.

Karlo,
This discussion is about election fraud.  I’m sure the web has plenty of chat rooms for tin-hat discussions.

Karlo,

The writings of John Titos are based on an online RPG:

http://www.spearweasel.com/rpg/twheel/darkfutr.htm

BUT, I’d like to say that even though this is a hoax, the direction the country is heading in is frightening and unless we stand up and take our party(ies) back, I see it only getting worse.

Kurt: Titor’s story if true may be highly relevant to the 2004 election fraud because we may be headed toward an American civil war that Titor predicted and that others have mentioned here as a possible consequence of the stolen election.  While some may already have their minds made up about whether Titor’s story is true or not, smarter people usually wait until they have some strong or conclusive evidence instead of forming premature conclusions either for or against something.  Dr. Freeman’s statistical evidence for example very strongly indicates that the election was stolen, yet you may have noticed there are plenty of pigheaded rightwingers posting here wanting to deny the very evidence before their eyes.  You can try to be like those narrow-minded Taliban/Christian-style bigots who desire to suppress opinions they don’t agree with, but as long as this is a public forum, don’t expect much success.  I don’t know if Titor’s story is true or not, but I am keeping an open mind because the evidence in his favor so far is pretty good, and I hold the opinion that an open mind is far better than a closed one.  You are welcome to your opinions but don’t even think about stifling mine, this is still America after all, even if we are all circling the drain together under Bush and his co-conspirators in crime. 

Claire: Explaining Titor’s story as being a ripoff of a role playing game is an old claim that close inspection easily disproves; if you were to take the trouble to look closely at both stories you would find that they resemble one another only superficially.  Unfortunately the URL you provided doesn’t seem to work, but I have looked closely in the past at the specific RPG story that has been dished up as an “explanation” for Titor and there are only a few points of intersection.  Titor’s scenario just as superficially resembles other stories like Blade Runner, 1984, and Soylent Green that present dark pictures of the future too.  Such superficial resemblances don’t prove anything (and you might recall for example that there have never been any time travel stories including the RPG you cite, except for Titor, which have ever put forth a physically plausible mechanism for achieving time travel), and trying to exhaustively refute how and why each futuristic story out there doesn’t really resemble Titor’s story is pointless.  The point is that Titor’s specific prediction of an emerging police state (made well before 9/11 remember) does seem to be coming true in the direction America is going, and a stolen election could be the spark that lights the conflagration of civil war follwed by nuclear war that Titor predicted - if enough people ever learn about the stolen election and care, that is. 

Keep in mind that Titor’s story doesn’t have to be true for America to fall into civil war or have a nuclear war for that matter either.  But if Titor’s story does turn out to be true, we’ll know well in advance to prepare for the 2015 nuclear war he predicted.  Otherwise we have to live the next four years with the uncertainly that Bush the irresponsible “War President” (War Criminal is more like it) will get us into a nuclear exchange much sooner.  A hope of gaining that relative peace of mind is the real value of keeping an open mind until Titor is conclusively proven true or false.

Oops - “uncertainty”, not “uncertainly”.  :)

Karl, didn’t I say that?

Karl,
Seriously, you are killing me.  You are making me give up on this forum.  I was hoping this forum might actually lead to some good ideas about getting the statistics some serious exposure.  But you are killing it.  Even Carl Rove couldn’t of done such a good job of killing this discussion, Karl….. wait a minute….

With mixed emotions - Bush will be the last US President.  Time will tell, of course, but don’t say you haven’t heard it.

Martial rule will be put in place when our homeland gets hit by a dirty bomb or something (perpetrated by insiders - the same one who did 9/11 on us).

http://st12.startlogic.com/~xenonpup/Flashes/squibs_along_southwest_corner.ht tm

http://www.fourwinds10.com/news/05-government/C-fraud/01-911/2004/05C1-08-17- -04-911-video-shocks-sacramento-citizens.html

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6847.htm

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/

Wake up fellow Americans!

This website is absolute insanity/ stupidity!!! Are all three major networks, CNN, Fox, and all reputable newspapers and newsmagazines also in on the conspiracy? Your side lost. Accept it as your opponents did in 1992 and 1996.

Dave - check out who owns all three major networks, CNN, Fox (oh brother), and all “reputable” newspapers and newsmagazines.

http://www.mediachannel.org/ownership/chart.shtml

http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/

http://www.thenation.com/special/bigten.html

http://www.corporations.org/media/

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=7&issue_area_id=6

http://www.nowfoundation.org/issues/communications/tv/mediacontrol.html

Come back and chat after you’ve done some reading.

Yep Dave, this website talk is insanity. No doubt about it. We’re talking about the total control of our political system by a small group of corporate fascists. Yep, very crazy.
Unfortunately that doesn’t make it inaccurate. What has been said here for the last couple of weeks has been so similar to letters written by Germans in the 1930’s to family and friends overseas that it’s like they are still alive instead of gassed.
We who have talked here support the Constitution and Bill of Rights. What about you, Dave? Or do those documents only apply to the “right” thinking citizens?

Thanks Historyreader. Couldn’t have said it better. It’s nice to be among true patriots.

Dave, I’m no left nor right, donkey or elephant.  I’m an independent American loyal to the Constitution and the inaliable rights of individuals.  Whoever won is irrelevant.  The point is you have to see the video evidences of 9/11 and think for yourself.  Were those detonations in sequence, smoke ‘puffs’ (cat’s tail) imagined?

Terrorists are not the ones curbing our civil rights and freedoms - legislators do.

How about this one: http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index575.htm ?

An over 3000-page bill, lobbied hard by George W Bush, passed without any individual members of House or Senate reading it?! 

Our loyalty should NOT be to any party but to the goodness of the Constitution and the freedoms it tries to protect - inalienable rights:  rights that CANNOT be legislated away.  Trampled? Yes - military might can do that.  But they exist, nonetheless, just as life itself exists.

LOL, Dave must not be aware that all the major networks are owned or controlled by right-wingers.

Or maybe he simply doesn’t understand statistics?

COUNTING THE VOTES: Heinz Kerry is openly skeptical about results from November’s election, particularly in sections of the country where optical scanners were used to record votes

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/connelly/214744_joel07.html

I adore that lady.

Thom Hartmann wrote another excellent article about this stolen election with suggestions for 2006, entitled “Teresa Heinz Kerry - Hacking the ‘Mother Machine’?” http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0310-32.htm

what can we do to right this wrong? how can we organise beyond talking about it? where are people gathering to talk about this issue? thanks.

3 suggestions (I am doing the first as we speak):

1: Fax this document to your elections office, county clerks, and local press:
http://www.votersunite.org/info/ElectronicVotingInBrief.pdf

2: Print this document (take it to a print shop and have it copied double sided) and deliver to your county clerk and to the elections office:
http://www.votersunite.org/MB2.pdf

3: Support Open Voting Consortium:
http://openvoting.org

as a journalist who covered the 2003-04 election cycle, i couldn’t disagree more with this article. the authors demonstrate a propensity for recycling warmed over rhetoric and sophmoric propaganda.
john forbes kerry lost the 2004 presidential election. anyone who doesn’t live in a cave knows that. just ask your neighbors.
-jeffery mcnary

Yep he lost. Bush doesn’t play fair. Never has.

Jeffery, “warmed over rhetoric” and “sophomoric propaganda” is not the topic of this site, though some of us may have crossed that line in our personal communications.  The bottom line that we are talking about however is statistical proof that the 2004 election was stolen.  “As a journalist”, do you understand statistics?

And if you do understand statistics, why do you think “journalists” are giving Bush a free pass on this story by ignoring the proof?

Add a couple more questions for “Jeffery”:
1)Why did the bush cartel slam the Ukraine election as corrupt using THE SAME kind of exit poll that showed our election was corrupted in the same manner?
2)Why is there almost no investigation of multiple and massive indications of fraud all over the country being investigated by those that benefit from that fraud?
3)Why can’t we do what the Ukraine did, namely have a new election with verifiable recount ability?
4)What corporation owns the company you work for, what campaign did they give money to, and what benefits have the owners of your company received from the bush cartel (tax breaks, etc)?

answers: 1)it’s a liberal plot and you hate America 2)never ask a bank robber to investigate themselves 3)duh, and lose for real? They’re not stupid 4) Surprise me with this one….

well, as you guys are/were fond of saying, “move on”, boyo, “move on”.

Jeffery, I cannot jut “get over” democracy and “move on”. Sorry if investigating is so hard for you.

A real journalist follows and examines the facts to find the truth.  Unless of course he’s a shill for the Bush propaganda machine.

There is truth in Freeman’s statistics.  The exact same truth that recently was applied in the Ukraine election.

Well lookie here, a feller by the name of jeffery mcnary has an article helping to put a Bushite spin on Kerry posted at http://newswire.indymedia.org/en/newswire/2004/03/801101.shtml, dated 20 Mar 2004, titled “Part II, Raise Hell in Dixie”.  He ends his article with these words:

Once upon a time, as a young Marine based in a distant duty station, I celebrated November 10th, the Corp’s birthday with a somewhat rowdy cluster of grunts. Clad in the signature finery of dress blues, and with the liquor flowing, we turned to talk of home. As the evening grew late, Corporal Fred Yates unbuttoned the top of his tunic, climbed atop a table, and yelled, “Raise hell in Dixie”! “U-rah”, came the response. I had absolutely no idea why or what I was “u-rahing”, but I do now. And if Mr. Kerry doesn’t know, somebody better tell him.

He doesn’t quite answer his own question, so we are left to wonder what exactly he now knows what he was cheering back when he was robotically doing the cheering.  Hmmm:

Testosterone-fueled nationalism?

The joys of jackboots and goosestepping?

Just plain bloodlust?

Surprise surprise, ‘jeffery’ is now here to tell us, cloaked in the most serious and somber journalistic mantle he can muster, that Steve Freeman and Josh Mitteldorf “demonstrate a propensity for recycling warmed over rhetoric and sophmoric propaganda”.  As if by his pronouncement we should ignore the data and the statistical analyses of the data. 

Folks, I think we have found another right-wing shill for the Bush propaganda machine pretending to be objective.  So much for the myth of the “liberal media”, eh ‘jeffery’?  How much are they paying you, ‘jeffery’?  How many hours a day are you paid to try to squelch the rising tide of truth on the Web about the stolen election?  Have you met Karl Rove personally, ‘jeffery’, or are you a simple worker drone? 

You should be ashamed of yourself for calling yourself a journalist.

Imposter journalist ‘jeffery’ has the same article posted at http://wmass.indymedia.org/newswire/display/2604/index.php at a website calling itself the “Western Massachusetts Independent Media Center”.  Who’d like to take bets that this is another right-wing propaganda front organization?  Something is sure fishy about the purported Massachusetts connection, the domain name indymedia.org is registered to an outfit called DSTR Holdings in Sao Paolo, Brazil! 

WhoIs Details:
=============
Domain ID:D11766162-LROR
Domain Name:INDYMEDIA.ORG
Created On:27-Oct-1999 20:24:39 UTC
Last Updated On:21-Jan-2005 15:16:37 UTC
Expiration Date:27-Oct-2005 20:24:39 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:DSTR Holdings, Inc. (R34-LROR)
Status:OK
Registrant ID:DOT-2JXR2JI4YIFH
Registrant Name:Independent Media Center
Registrant Organization:IMC
Registrant Street1:Rua In?cio P. Rocha, 431
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Sao Paulo
Registrant State/Province:SP
Registrant Postal Code:05432
Registrant Country:BR
Registrant Phone:+55.551130316555
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:pablo@riseup.net
Admin ID:DOT-6RMKEX76VLA9
Admin Name:Independent Media Center
Admin Organization:IMC
Admin Street1:Rua In?cio P. Rocha, 431
Admin Street2:
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Sao Paulo
Admin State/Province:SP
Admin Postal Code:05432
Admin Country:BR
Admin Phone:+55.551130316555
Admin Phone Ext.:
Admin FAX:
Admin FAX Ext.:
Admin Email:pablo@riseup.net
Tech ID:DOT-PDUBKQE88X0C
Tech Name:IMC Tech
Tech Organization:IMC
Tech Street1:Rua In?cio P. Rocha, 431
Tech Street2:
Tech Street3:
Tech City:Sao Paulo
Tech State/Province:SP
Tech Postal Code:05432
Tech Country:BR
Tech Phone:+55.551130316555
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Email:imc-tech@indymedia.org
Name Server:NS1.RISEUP.NET
Name Server:NS2.CAT.ORG.AU
Name Server:NS2.RISEUP.NET

A TraceRoute shows the server for IndyMedia.org is located in Colorado:

CustName:  Jeff Moe
Address:  16226 N COUNTY ROAD 25 E
City:    Loveland
StateProv:  CO
PostalCode: 80538-9568
Country:  US
RegDate:  2004-09-01
Updated:  2004-09-01

NetRange:  216.17.145.0 - 216.17.145.127
CIDR:    216.17.145.0/25
NetName:  NET-JEBBA-03
NetHandle:  NET-216-17-145-0-1
Parent:    NET-216-17-128-0-1
NetType:  Reassigned
Comment: 
RegDate:  2004-09-01
Updated:  2004-09-01

TechHandle: FHR-ORG-ARIN
TechName:  Technical
TechPhone:  +1-970-212-0700
TechEmail:  mailto:arinswip@frii.net

OrgAbuseHandle: FHR-ORG-ARIN
OrgAbuseName:  Technical
OrgAbusePhone:  +1-970-212-0700
OrgAbuseEmail:  mailto:arinswip@frii.net

OrgTechHandle: FHR-ORG-ARIN
OrgTechName:  Technical
OrgTechPhone:  +1-970-212-0700
OrgTechEmail:  mailto:arinswip@frii.net

# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2005-03-11 19:10
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN’s WHOIS database.

Name:    Technical
Handle:    FHR-ORG-ARIN
Company:  Front Range Internet, Inc.
Address:  213 Linden Street, Suite 200
City:    Fort Collins
StateProv:  CO
PostalCode: 80524
Country:  US
Comment:   
RegDate: 
Updated:  2004-11-10
Phone:    +1-970-212-0700 (Office)
Email:    mailto:arinswip@frii.net

If you read ‘jeffery’s’ article at either of the two URLs above you’ll perhaps notice how it seems to be filled with slyly insinuated doubts about Kerry in contrast with Bush’s strengths.  The whole article seems designed to raise doubts in people’s minds about Kerry.  Planted on a site associating itself with Massachusetts helps create and support the impression that even lots of people in Massachusetts have grave misgivings about Kerry. 

This is often how propaganda works: lies by insinuation and character asassination.  There is nothing “journalistic” about ‘jeffery’s’ article at all.

Are they all named Jeffery? ;)

I’ve been reading all the comments coming into my email over the last couple of weeks and found this article on the commondreams site. I think it speaks to this issue. Check it out.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0311-21.htm

Teresa

Thank you Teresa!

I thought you all may want to see what Teresa Heinz Kerry has to say about the “election” as well.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0310-32.htm

jeffery ..... identify and ignore

I have followed some of Mr. McNary’s work online. It is imbued with insight, first hand information, and great humor. I would not say that his recent articles qualify as “investingative journalism,” and yet he is aware, as you are, thanks to Greg Palast, that electoral corruption is still endemic in this system. Richard Nixon once said that he “played by the rules of politics as he knew them.” Perhaps implicit in the overly indulgent cynicism of his remarks is the despair that in spite of the fact that the truth comes out, the system still does not change, and your best journalistic intentions aside, that even the independent media is impotent to affect sustantive changes to the system. Why are we so quick to deify JFK when the literature proves that he fraudulently won Illinois? How can you prove that if the “powers that be” had given the election to Kerry, his program would have succeeded? Maybe if he had fought the military industrial complex he would have ended up with the same fate as JFK. And to imply that he had the balls to do that is reasonable based on his record, but lets face it he didn’t have the balls to say as much in the campaign, so why is everyone behind Howard Dean now? I applaud your article, and its too bad that the legal system is easily manipulated, to the point where voting machines may not be abolished. In the mean time however, the voting system needs multiple balloting, independently verified , wherein voters vote several times in a follproof secure system, insuring the cross tallying of counts.
    Anyway, McNary is not a hired propagandist, just because you can analyze his remarks as such. The remarks are simply overstated frustration at the system. His words were neededlessly disrespectful, but lets see them for what they are. Opposition within the opposition need not be vilified. The cynic still has something to teach us.

as a journalist who covered the 2003-04 election cycle, i couldn’t disagree more with this article. the authors demonstrate a propensity for recycling warmed over rhetoric and sophmoric propaganda.
john forbes kerry lost the 2004 presidential election. anyone who doesn’t live in a cave knows that. just ask your neighbors.

These remarks by ‘jeffery’ do not represent “overstated frustration at the system”, they are complete capitulation to the system.  Your attempts Chuck to distract from and minimize the POINT that Bush stole the election by suggesting that JFK may have stolen Illinois and wondering if Kerry’s program “would have succeeded” are completely irrelevant to this discussion.  It is not just cynicism we face, but outright lies and falsehoods, starting with Bush and his co-conspirators and extending downward to all the accomplices either willing or possibly duped like ‘jeffery’ who support the Bush fabrications in the face of the very strong statistical evidence provided by the exit polls. 

This exact same type of exit poll evidence was good enough to bring a true democratic election to Ukraine, why are you not taking a stand for similar democracy to spring forth in America?  Are you seriously trying to tell us that you think it’s okay that Bush stole the election since you claim JFK might have stolen Illinois, and because you don’t know if Kerry’s program “would have succeeded”?

Well said, Karl S

I am curious how Mr. McNary’s viewpoint would have been expressed had the outcome been exactly reversed? 

One more comment, when Republicans parrot the words, “get over it” or “move on”, I always get the mental picture of a cop standing beside a parent with a murdered child saying, “sorry, we can’t apprehend the suspect, so you’d better just get over it”.  How trite and thoughtless those words seem then, but is democracy not a child in the throes of abduction and possible murder now?  A little theatrical, I’ll grant you, but the point remains the same.

This is an encouraging article

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0503/S00147.htm

I have seen enough information from a variety of sources that convince me that BushCo stole the election (again).  Maybe I’m naive, but it seems that stealing an election should be against the law.  Is there no way of starting a some kind of legal proceeding that would assure and investigation and expose the evidence of what went on?  I don’t get it…
mick

Personally, I think Claire cut and pasted.

Boo Hoo Hoot ;)

EVEN KERRY HIM SELF ADMITS DEFEAT!!! PERSONALLY I HAVE TO WONDER WHY ANOTHER BONESMEN? WAS OUR FREEDOME WORTH LOSING THIS ELECTION SO HITLARY CAN WIN IN O8’?
THE ENTIRE GOVERNMENT HAS LOST CONTROL OF REALITY.THEY ARE THE MOST ARROGANT I HAVE EVER SEEN…
1776 IS THE CURE FOR 1984

* * * TIME TO IMPEACH! * * *

We need mass demonstrations all across the country—not just against the corrupt Republican fascists, but of the impotent news media, which function as the propaganda arm of the Bush junta.

As long as the Republicans can steal elections whenever they want, political campaigns are a waste of time and money. The Republicans are only beholden to their contributors, because OUR VOTES DON’T COUNT.

I am a Republican, and believe that “W” won fair-and-square. I don’t support all the attacks against gays or abortion, nor do I support the increasing tax burden on the working poor, but I do support the Republican party none-the-less.

I think the problem is that too many Democrats are too quick to blame Republicans for everything, such as the undocumented worker problem. The truth is the Democrats are more to blame for most of these problems.

These are the two biggest parties in the Country and it is doubtful any other party candidate will win in the next two decades. However, given the choice, I would vote for a Libertarian.

I am so grateful for this article, and for all of your blog comments- especially for the ‘nay’ comments (that are the typical unsubstantiated response from the ‘winners’), as the replys to them are succinct.  I guess if i was a bush supporter i might do as they have to do- derail the attention away from a fraudulent win- pretend to have scrutinized the evidence and then determine it’s bunk, with no explanation necessary (notwithstanding that there is no explanation).

And, so why is it that so many Re-congress-persons interefered with any legislation that would promote fairer and legitimate elections?  Isn’t that odd?  Or, is it in their best interests for the election process to remain as it is- in the hands of the GOP- loopholes and regulation-free!  Knowing their chances to win in the future would be highly jeapordized if their ‘tweeking’ options were removed. ~jl4bboxer

I too am mildly amused by the right-wingers who OFFER NO EVIDENCE OR FACT OF ANY KIND to support their position but yet passionately believe in it.  However, such unsupported passion is also horrifying in its implications because the world has seen it before. 

I’d call it FAITH-BASED POLITICS having about the same lack of validity as any other “faith-based” belief system.  It is the same mentality that supported the Inquisition, and if we don’t turn things around in this country by insisting on a separation of church and state and that our Constitution be respected, America will be lost to superstition and religious Fascism.  Right now Bill Frist and other right-wing extremists in Congress are plotting to overturn the checks and balances provided by the filibuster so that they can get evangelical right-wing judges appointed, so the threat of a new Inquisition taking shape in America is not imaginary.

It’s the old “My party, right or wrong.”—Don’t confuse me with the facts.  Otherwise, BushCo wouldn’t stand a chance—they would all be in jail.

I apologize because I’m frustrated with so much argumentation with “See - look at this ancillary thing over here” type arguments to explain proof of another masterful scheme that Republicans are cooking up.

So please explain in detail how the election was stolen?  I’m amazed how many people just buy into that.  As many times as I’ve seen the word Fascist used here, this isn’t a Fascist country.  Can you honestly equate this country to Nazi Germany?  We have freedom from fear and oppression in this country - or else sites like this wouldn’t exist.  So stealing the election would not be simple.  There are too many people to silence and there are too many free people with access to data in any one of the states would love to hang GWB by the entrails - some word would have gotten out by now.

Regardless of this truth, so many of you believe the evidence clearly suggests the election was stolen and there is no other possible explanation.  Others here have said here stealing an election wouldn’t be difficult in our system.  Really?  Prove it.  If you have the information please enlighten us! How did they actually do it?  You country needs your hard empirical details if we are ever to trust our system again.

You would think some investigative reporter would have ascertained the scheme by now.  GWB has been called the simplest, dumbest President in history, so the chance he could pull this off without a trace of evidence must be ‘nil.  A dumb person could only surround himself with more dumb people, as a result, they assuredly wouldn’t be smart enough collectively to pull off this great heist.

I have seen commentary that Karl Rove masterminded everything - so I guess he’s a genius, the only one.  Amazing Bush was able to find him and that Rove would stoop to his level. 

So…1 person scammed the greatest, freest country in the world filled with people that hate him and would love to bring him down if they had a shred of evidence.

OK - I’ll buy that.  Man, what is in the Kool-Aid?

He had 62 million recorded votes to Kerry’s 59mm.

Assuming all 49 million Bush 2000 voters who were still alive came to vote in 2004, that’s 13 million additional votes.

Did he get them from Gore?
Gore voters don’t like Bush.
They voted for the winner in 2000 and SCOTUS took it away from them.

Did he get them from Nader?
Kerry won over 70% of the 3 million Nader 2000 voters.

Did he get them from 21mm New voters?
Kerry won first-time voters and those who stayed home in 2000 by 55-60%.

So whose left? Where did they come from?

Did 13 million Gore voters decide to stay home this time and not vote for Kerry?

IMPOSSIBLE.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum= =203&topic_id=367638&mesg_id=367638
http://www.udpc.org/videos.htm

Bush as Hitler? Naw, I don’t really believe that a C- student (with all the perks of an alumni wealthy powerful congressman daddy going for him and he got a C-? What would a real person’s grades have been???) is as smart as Adolph was. Just as fully chrisitan as Hitler, though. Now Cheney, the designer of the “new america” is another story.
But bush DID invade another country that wasn’t threatening anyone with made-up excuses. Very similar there. And the wealthy military industrialists (like 1930 Germany) are making a bundle of cash promoting this ghastly invasion of Iraq. Very similar again. The media manipulation, the refusal to open government files to investigators is the same, changing laws to benefit the few, one party rule, trashing the lives of anyone who questions, dismissing dissenters as “unpatriotic” liberals, the list gets pretty long doesn’t it?
About the election Jason: There is a HUGE body of evidence that you obviously refuse to read. It won’t be put on the nightly corporate news so you have to dig for it, but I guess that’s too much brain work, eh?
And just to add a little info: The Spokane newspaper 5/6 pg. A15 printed a highly classified British document that summarized a July 23rd ‘02 meeting between the head of MI-6 intelligence and the British Prime Minister outlining how bush “wanted to remove Saddam through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD…the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.” Opps, somebody leaked over there. So what’s a little election fixing compared to STARTING A FREAKING WAR? I hope to live to see the day that bush and all his freaks are in the dock at Neuremburg answering to war crimes and trying not to be hung at the neck until dead.
May I live long enough….

Karl S. has hit the nail on the head.  The Repubs really believe that, since God is on their side, they must be right about everything, including the validity of this election.  Several people have posted lots of info, with citations and links, that are very strong evidence that Bush partisans cheated big-time and stole the election.  But the only the Bushies can come up with is “You’re sore losers”.  Nothing else.  It’s based on their faith, so it doesn’t have to make sense - just like their faith in a religion that is totally bogus.  These idiots are leading our country to ruin.

The 2000 and the 2004 election were fixed. In both election the exit polls said bush lost. In all the election in the past the exit polls worked, even in England, the election in 2005 they used exit polls. How come none of the news media in the USA are reporting this. We are the joke of the world. If everybody wrote to their news news agency and ask them to investigate. Not fox news how do they get away with what they are doing at fox news. I have not watch that thing in years.

Voting fraud can be precluded by organization.  It would not be difficult to use computers.  Just use stations leading up to the state level with computers leading back to the voter to verify the recording.  People would not even have to go to the polling station following this method.  There would still be a need for voting machines for those people who did not have access to a computor.